From chgenly@verizon.net Fri Dec 17 00:31:39 2004 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBH8Vcc3014435 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:31:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.111] ([4.5.12.154]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041217081922.PDZC28362.out005.verizon.net@[10.0.0.111]> for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:19:22 -0600 From: Chris Genly To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:19:21 -0800 Message-Id: <1103271561.7453.7.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:19:21 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] test@12:19 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: chgenly@alum.mit.edu, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:31:39 -0000 From chgenly@verizon.net Fri Dec 17 14:15:13 2004 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBHMFC4Z047384 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:15:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.101] ([4.5.12.154]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041217221511.VUTB8290.out004.verizon.net@[10.0.0.101]> for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:15:11 -0600 Message-ID: <41C35A70.1030104@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:15:12 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:15:11 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] testing verizon 12/17 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:15:14 -0000 From chgenly@verizon.net Mon Dec 20 12:29:06 2004 Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBKKT5Xm082844 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([4.5.12.154]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041220202904.SJI4717.out011.verizon.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:29:04 -0600 Message-ID: <41C73610.3050805@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:29:04 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:29:04 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] test from chris.genly.us 12/20 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:29:22 -0000 From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Tue Dec 21 14:44:18 2004 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (3251@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBLMiFDI057281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from localhost (mbliss@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id iBLMiFBn057278 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Bliss To: grovenet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <20041221143816.J50367@agora.rdrop.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [Grovenet] TestMessage20041221 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:44:19 -0000 Just a test message ... From chgenly@verizon.net Tue Dec 21 16:17:43 2004 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBM0HfmZ083057 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([4.5.12.154]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041222001740.UDUR24714.out010.verizon.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:17:40 -0600 Message-ID: <41C8BD22.7030304@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:17:38 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:17:40 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Breakfast after serving electricity at sundown X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:17:43 -0000 Is the list working? From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Tue Dec 21 16:55:31 2004 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (3251@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBM0tVxu093510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:55:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from localhost (mbliss@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id iBM0tUGA093507; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:55:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Bliss To: Chris Genly Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Breakfast after serving electricity at sundown In-Reply-To: <41C8BD22.7030304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20041221165503.V92865@agora.rdrop.com> References: <41C8BD22.7030304@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: grovenet@rdrop.com X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:55:31 -0000 Apparently, it is. Isn't that neat? On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Chris Genly wrote: > Is the list working? > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Tue Dec 21 21:29:37 2004 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBM5Ta86063513 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041222052935.YIIN10436.out012.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:29:35 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Breakfast after serving electricity at sundown Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:28:43 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <41C8BD22.7030304@verizon.net> <20041221165503.V92865@agora.rdrop.com> In-Reply-To: <20041221165503.V92865@agora.rdrop.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412212128.43423.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:29:35 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:29:37 -0000 Another test at 9:30 pm 20041221 On Tuesday 21 December 2004 16:55, Meredith Bliss wrote: > Apparently, it is. Isn't that neat? > > On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Chris Genly wrote: > > Is the list working? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From chgenly@verizon.net Tue Dec 21 22:02:11 2004 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBM62AXb070634 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([4.5.12.154]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041222060209.XMEH1106.out003.verizon.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:09 -0600 Message-ID: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:02:09 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:09 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:02:11 -0000 If you see this, please reply. Chris From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Wed Dec 22 08:17:30 2004 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (3251@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBMGHT2h018956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from localhost (mbliss@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id iBMGHPus018941; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:17:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Bliss To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? In-Reply-To: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:17:30 -0000 Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, so look for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Chris Genly wrote: > If you see this, please reply. > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rune@easystreet.com Wed Dec 22 12:49:58 2004 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBMKnvTa011475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:49:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rune@easystreet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248B31E78CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Artemis.easystreet.com (69-30-9-140.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.9.140]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2ED86DC00C; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:18:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> X-Sender: rune@pop.easystreet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:18:10 -0800 To: Forest Grove local interests list , chris@genly.us From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? In-Reply-To: <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:49:58 -0000 At 08:17 AM 12/22/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: >Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, so look >for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. I've been getting messages from Meredith, but not from anyone else. It looks like I subscribed successfully. Michael From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Wed Dec 22 13:29:36 2004 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (3251@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBMLTahk027833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from localhost (mbliss@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id iBMLTacw027830 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> Message-ID: <20041222132703.I26208@agora.rdrop.com> References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:29:37 -0000 I think that's all that's floating around at the moment. Bob has apparently subscribed, so maybe we'll see something from him. For some reason, it doesn't appear that Chris is getting messages, though. No sign of Alan yet ... Chris? Chris? You out there? On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Michael O'Brien wrote: > At 08:17 AM 12/22/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: >> Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, so look >> for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. > > I've been getting messages from Meredith, but not from anyone else. It looks > like I subscribed successfully. > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab@jurislex.com Wed Dec 22 14:02:12 2004 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBMM2BO9040967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq071.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2135A4123 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F80364045; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:37:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41C9E90C.1050800@jurislex.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:37:16 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:02:12 -0000 Ok, so does this mean I'm on? And what do we do with the lurkers? It appears that they will have to resubscribe themselves, and I know we will lose a few. So, maybe it's time to put some kind of an article in the News-Times, Argus, or Oregonian? Or should we run a daily reminder between now and December 31 on the old list of the need to resubscribe ? Or should I post something to the old list and get some feedback from there as to how to keep g'net populated and alive? Any feedback would be helpful. Lastly, I got a check for $100 from Robert V. last week, so, Bud, do you have some costs that we should contribute to and, if so, to whom do I make the check? bob Michael O'Brien wrote: > At 08:17 AM 12/22/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: > >> Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, so >> look for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. > > > I've been getting messages from Meredith, but not from anyone else. > It looks like I subscribed successfully. > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Wed Dec 22 14:11:56 2004 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (3251@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBMMBuBR044807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from localhost (mbliss@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id iBMMBumS044804 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:11:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:11:56 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? In-Reply-To: <41C9E90C.1050800@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <20041222141012.B43684@agora.rdrop.com> References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> <41C9E90C.1050800@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:11:57 -0000 No need to worry, Chris has the subscriber list so we can automatically subscribe all 233 of them to the new list as soon as we are really sure this is working well. And welcome! On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Bob Browning wrote: > Ok, so does this mean I'm on? And what do we do with the lurkers? It appears > that they will have to resubscribe themselves, and I know we will lose a few. > > So, maybe it's time to put some kind of an article in the News-Times, Argus, > or Oregonian? Or should we run a daily reminder between now and December 31 > on the old list of the need to resubscribe ? > > Or should I post something to the old list and get some feedback from there > as to how to keep g'net populated and alive? > > Any feedback would be helpful. > > Lastly, I got a check for $100 from Robert V. last week, so, Bud, do you have > some costs that we should contribute to and, if so, to whom do I make the > check? > > bob > > Michael O'Brien wrote: > >> At 08:17 AM 12/22/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: >> >>> Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, so look >>> for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. >> >> >> I've been getting messages from Meredith, but not from anyone else. It >> looks like I subscribed successfully. >> >> Michael >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From chgenly@verizon.net Fri Dec 24 17:14:03 2004 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBP1E39Q028301 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([4.5.12.154]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041225011402.HWET24714.out010.verizon.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:14:02 -0600 Message-ID: <41CCBEDC.4020503@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:14:04 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Should I see my own posts? References: <41C90DE1.4050803@verizon.net> <20041222081622.W18558@agora.rdrop.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20041222121656.0209b710@pop.easystreet.com> <41C9E90C.1050800@jurislex.com> <20041222141012.B43684@agora.rdrop.com> In-Reply-To: <20041222141012.B43684@agora.rdrop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:14:02 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:14:04 -0000 Doh! It's working. I was expecting grovenet posts to go in to my inbox. But they ended up in my grovenet folder! So it looks like things are working. (Except for my brain.) Is it working for everyone else? If so, I will do the bulk subscribe. Chris Meredith Bliss wrote: > No need to worry, Chris has the subscriber list so we can > automatically subscribe all 233 of them to the new list as soon as we > are really sure this is working well. And welcome! > > On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Ok, so does this mean I'm on? And what do we do with the lurkers? It >> appears that they will have to resubscribe themselves, and I know we >> will lose a few. >> >> So, maybe it's time to put some kind of an article in the News-Times, >> Argus, or Oregonian? Or should we run a daily reminder between now >> and December 31 on the old list of the need to resubscribe ? >> >> Or should I post something to the old list and get some feedback from >> there as to how to keep g'net populated and alive? >> >> Any feedback would be helpful. >> >> Lastly, I got a check for $100 from Robert V. last week, so, Bud, do >> you have some costs that we should contribute to and, if so, to whom >> do I make the check? >> >> bob >> >> Michael O'Brien wrote: >> >>> At 08:17 AM 12/22/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, I do. Apparently Michael has been able to subscribe, as well, >>>> so look for a reply from him. No sign of Bob or Alan, yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I've been getting messages from Meredith, but not from anyone else. >>> It looks like I subscribed successfully. >>> >>> Michael >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet@rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chgenly@verizon.net Fri Dec 24 17:19:18 2004 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBP1JHeu029325 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([4.5.12.154]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041225011916.KDHW1106.out003.verizon.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:19:16 -0600 Message-ID: <41CCC015.5020200@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:19:17 -0800 From: Chris Genly Organization: Vestmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Breakfast after serving electricity at sundown References: <41C8BD22.7030304@verizon.net> <20041221165503.V92865@agora.rdrop.com> In-Reply-To: <20041221165503.V92865@agora.rdrop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:19:16 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:19:18 -0000 It's fantastic!!!! Meredith Bliss wrote: > Apparently, it is. Isn't that neat? > > On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Chris Genly wrote: > >> Is the list working? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Sun Dec 26 01:22:23 2004 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f15.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.25]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQ9MNkR044497 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:05:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.192.17 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:04:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.192.17] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:04:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Dec 2004 09:05:01.0868 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB7D0EC0:01C4EB29] Subject: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:22:23 -0000 I am posting my first message on the new server. I was an early member of the original Grovenet list and I am a true believer in this marvelous treasure we still share. I have met and kept many friends through the list and continue to learn much about what's going on in the area. The debates get spirited at times, but we can still take time for a coffee together at BJ's and confirm our mutual respect and friendship. A friend once told me that we have only three degrees of separation in Forest Grove - when I go to Safeway, I will always see either you, or someone who knows you. For a growing community of 18,000, or so, we are close, and I kind of like it that way. As for me, I am semi-retired from a 35-year career in high-tech marketing and sales, semi-self employed as a writer and semi-employed at the local bowling center (Rainbow Lanes) a few days a week. I am joyfully married with two kids at Forest Grove High and one in 4th grade; and I have three older children and three grandchildren from a prior life. I am a long suffering, lifelong Boston Red Sox fan who still cannot fully comprehend the miracle of '04. Four generations of my ancestors leapt in their graves when our Sox did the el-foldo to the Yankees to get into the Series and then we all about exploded when they swept the Cards. Oh my! Some of you may remember me from 6 years on the FG School Board - a fantastic experience and a huge challenge for me. I have the highest regard and respect for this school district - the primary reason we moved here in 1993. I have a passion for those kids and the staff that serves them so well at such great odds. I am also a committed Christian - committed to the relationship, NOT the religion. I find great joy and peace in that relationship with the all powerful God who loves us all. This is who I am....... RADICALLY REAL CHRISTIAN When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not shouting, "I am saved.” I'm whispering, "I get lost" That is why I chose this way. When I say, "I am a Christian," I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble And need someone to be my guide. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not trying to be strong. I'm professing that I am weak And pray for strength to carry on. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not bragging of success. I'm admitting I have failed And cannot ever pay the debt. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not claiming to be perfect. My flaws are too visible, But God believes I'm worth it. When I say, "I am a Christian," I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches Which is why I seek HIS name. When I say, "I am a Christian," I do not wish to judge. I have no authority I only know I'm loved. --by Carol Wimmer Peace and love at Christmas. May you all find the joy of the season! Dick LaJeunesse From rab@jurislex.com Sun Dec 26 07:58:54 2004 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQFwqJP048956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq071.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD480194DA for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81CC836403F; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41CEDFB1.9050303@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:58:41 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Grovenet X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:58:54 -0000 Hi, once again, to Dick LJ!! I'm putting this one out with both the old and the new address (I guess we can call it "Gen 3 Grovenet" - G3 for short, since we had Pacific, EasyStreet, and now Bud/Raindrop!!) since I am not sure if Chris G has completed the transfer over of all the old list. But, I know it will happen in the next day or so before EasyStreet pulls the plug on the old server. So, here's a post-Xmas, pre-New Years' greeting to all you good folks on G3 and I look forward to 2005 with anticipation as we continue to hash over the challenges and opportunities of a new year and a new list server, and as we remember what a wild, wacky ride 2004 was!! Happy New Year to you all. bob "still searching, once again" browning Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > I am posting my first message on the new server. > > I was an early member of the original Grovenet list and I am a true > believer in this marvelous treasure we still share. I have met and > kept many friends through the list and continue to learn much about > what's going on in the area. The debates get spirited at times, but we > can still take time for a coffee together at BJ's and confirm our > mutual respect and friendship. > > A friend once told me that we have only three degrees of separation in > Forest Grove - when I go to Safeway, I will always see either you, or > someone who knows you. For a growing community of 18,000, or so, we > are close, and I kind of like it that way. > > As for me, I am semi-retired from a 35-year career in high-tech > marketing and sales, semi-self employed as a writer and semi-employed > at the local bowling center (Rainbow Lanes) a few days a week. I am > joyfully married with two kids at Forest Grove High and one in 4th > grade; and I have three older children and three grandchildren from a > prior life. > > I am a long suffering, lifelong Boston Red Sox fan who still cannot > fully comprehend the miracle of '04. Four generations of my ancestors > leapt in their graves when our Sox did the el-foldo to the Yankees to > get into the Series and then we all about exploded when they swept the > Cards. Oh my! > > Some of you may remember me from 6 years on the FG School Board - a > fantastic experience and a huge challenge for me. I have the highest > regard and respect for this school district - the primary reason we > moved here in 1993. I have a passion for those kids and the staff that > serves them so well at such great odds. > > I am also a committed Christian - committed to the relationship, NOT > the religion. I find great joy and peace in that relationship with the > all powerful God who loves us all. This is who I am....... > > > RADICALLY REAL CHRISTIAN > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I'm not shouting, "I am saved.” > I'm whispering, "I get lost" > That is why I chose this way. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I don't speak of this with pride. > I'm confessing that I stumble > And need someone to be my guide. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I'm not trying to be strong. > I'm professing that I am weak > And pray for strength to carry on. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I'm not bragging of success. > I'm admitting I have failed > And cannot ever pay the debt. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I'm not claiming to be perfect. > My flaws are too visible, > But God believes I'm worth it. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I still feel the sting of pain. > I have my share of heartaches > Which is why I seek HIS name. > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > I do not wish to judge. > I have no authority > I only know I'm loved. > --by Carol Wimmer > > Peace and love at Christmas. May you all find the joy of the season! > > Dick LaJeunesse > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Dec 26 09:27:08 2004 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQHR8ki071630 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 008A6D619; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA12131; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:19:51 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAgHUwuIll5b/yDUJxJVVmGSs6kZcCFQC+AyxKUmG26TgefrIv6NwdshLg+Q== From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:19:51 -0800 To: grovenet@lists.grovenet.org (grovenet@grovenet.org mailing list) Message-ID: <5770-41CEF2B7-266@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "allnutt" 's message of Sat, 25 Dec 2004 21:13:41 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] RE: Someone has sent you a Musical Card! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:27:08 -0000 Your welcome Katie.... I'm going to post this reply on the new G@ also.... imagine my surprise when I found all of my webtv @'s (6) had mail from our new server ... the reason I have the extras is because msn/webtv does have hard copy disc's, so when I run out of space on an OleHoss, I just send it to one of the others.. the reason for 6 is because that is all msn will give me... ~alan~ some of my best friends are from low places ~ Hoss From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Dec 26 09:58:12 2004 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQHwBoc081893 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041226175811.VWOI24714.out010.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:58:11 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:57:52 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412260957.52676.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:58:10 -0600 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Season's Greetings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:58:12 -0000 Whatever you think, I'm sure ... On Sunday 26 December 2004 08:36, Julie Larson wrote: > What does that mean, David? > > > [Original Message] > > From: David Morelli > > To: grovenet@grovenet.org mailing list > > Date: 12/24/2004 4:07:02 PM > > Subject: Season's Greetings > > > > I hope that everyone on Grovenet receives the Peace that all of you > > deserve. > > > > David -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Dec 26 10:00:34 2004 Received: from artemis.email.starband.net (artemis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQI0Xch083138 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by artemis.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBQIAKTX023570 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <025e01c4eb6f$2d1a1dc0$0a00a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41CEDFB1.9050303@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:20:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Subject: [Grovenet] Re: posted only to net list. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:00:34 -0000 Good morning. If this message manages to get through it will be some evidence that the list is moved over as I have simply 'replied' to a message that showed up in my mail box from grovenet@rdrop.com I did not specificallly join the new list or do anything except pick a new list email to reply to. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Cc: "Grovenet" Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas > Hi, once again, to Dick LJ!! > > I'm putting this one out with both the old and the new address (I guess > we can call it "Gen 3 Grovenet" - G3 for short, since we had Pacific, > EasyStreet, and now Bud/Raindrop!!) since I am not sure if Chris G has > completed the transfer over of all the old list. But, I know it will > happen in the next day or so before EasyStreet pulls the plug on the old > server. > > So, here's a post-Xmas, pre-New Years' greeting to all you good folks on > G3 and I look forward to 2005 with anticipation as we continue to hash > over the challenges and opportunities of a new year and a new list > server, and as we remember what a wild, wacky ride 2004 was!! > > Happy New Year to you all. > > bob "still searching, once again" browning > > Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > > > I am posting my first message on the new server. > > > > I was an early member of the original Grovenet list and I am a true > > believer in this marvelous treasure we still share. I have met and > > kept many friends through the list and continue to learn much about > > what's going on in the area. The debates get spirited at times, but we > > can still take time for a coffee together at BJ's and confirm our > > mutual respect and friendship. > > > > A friend once told me that we have only three degrees of separation in > > Forest Grove - when I go to Safeway, I will always see either you, or > > someone who knows you. For a growing community of 18,000, or so, we > > are close, and I kind of like it that way. > > > > As for me, I am semi-retired from a 35-year career in high-tech > > marketing and sales, semi-self employed as a writer and semi-employed > > at the local bowling center (Rainbow Lanes) a few days a week. I am > > joyfully married with two kids at Forest Grove High and one in 4th > > grade; and I have three older children and three grandchildren from a > > prior life. > > > > I am a long suffering, lifelong Boston Red Sox fan who still cannot > > fully comprehend the miracle of '04. Four generations of my ancestors > > leapt in their graves when our Sox did the el-foldo to the Yankees to > > get into the Series and then we all about exploded when they swept the > > Cards. Oh my! > > > > Some of you may remember me from 6 years on the FG School Board - a > > fantastic experience and a huge challenge for me. I have the highest > > regard and respect for this school district - the primary reason we > > moved here in 1993. I have a passion for those kids and the staff that > > serves them so well at such great odds. > > > > I am also a committed Christian - committed to the relationship, NOT > > the religion. I find great joy and peace in that relationship with the > > all powerful God who loves us all. This is who I am....... > > > > > > RADICALLY REAL CHRISTIAN > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I'm not shouting, "I am saved.” > > I'm whispering, "I get lost" > > That is why I chose this way. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I don't speak of this with pride. > > I'm confessing that I stumble > > And need someone to be my guide. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I'm not trying to be strong. > > I'm professing that I am weak > > And pray for strength to carry on. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I'm not bragging of success. > > I'm admitting I have failed > > And cannot ever pay the debt. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I'm not claiming to be perfect. > > My flaws are too visible, > > But God believes I'm worth it. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I still feel the sting of pain. > > I have my share of heartaches > > Which is why I seek HIS name. > > > > When I say, "I am a Christian," > > I do not wish to judge. > > I have no authority > > I only know I'm loved. > > --by Carol Wimmer > > > > Peace and love at Christmas. May you all find the joy of the season! > > > > Dick LaJeunesse > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Dec 26 10:04:22 2004 Received: from smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQI4MC0085023 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 3FAF0D71D for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id KAA12719; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:04:16 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRkW5PunoOTYpS0aPJsOYypbq0tmAIVAMmu6uaot+p71WDLvkWtXpx5OxKo From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:04:15 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <5769-41CEFD1F-606@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-21810-330 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=#FFFFFF; Background="http://www.wtv-zone.com/Dale/christmas2004/Xmas-Cat-Back.jpg"; TextColor=#009C31 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] just a test X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:04:22 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-21810-330 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit to see if the new server will except my sig page --WebTV-Mail-21810-330-- From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Dec 26 10:33:31 2004 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQIXUcH094092 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041226183327.XMNF28388.out014.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:33:27 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:33:05 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:33:23 -0600 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] The New List X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:33:32 -0000 Everyone from the old Grovenet at Easystreet has been subscribed to the new list at Rdrop.com. Use the link at the bottom of this (and all) messages from the new listserv to set your preferences or subscribe/unsubscribe. Thanks to Chris for doing a lot of the heavy lifting, so far (you wouldn't believe how heavy this cyberstuff is!). I'm seeing some double posts, here, so there is still work to be done, but I hope things will even out soon. Let us know about any other peculiarities you see. We are also in receipt of the Grovenet archives from Easystreet. It will probably be too large to make publicly accessible here, but if anyone has thoughts on that, as well, let us know. ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net Sun Dec 26 10:36:56 2004 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQIauFx094981 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id CF02DD60C for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id KAA13026; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:31:45 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQblDUd5WNPboU7u1opiB9AuFm8LgIUfnby6sfEam/xXeLB7nzTUIuicDg= From: GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:31:45 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re: Season's Greetings Message-ID: <5769-41CF0391-637@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Meredith Bliss 's message of Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:57:52 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-32365-339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:36:57 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-32365-339 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit My thought is just piece or peace of mind ~alan~ sometimes peace through chemistry~ Hoss --WebTV-Mail-32365-339-- From GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net Sun Dec 26 10:42:47 2004 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQIglJC096291 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id EBD49D645 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id KAA13167; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQAqxLPiNQ8ilLzwGIyz4PuoaR6QAIVALLkakJQ4HM5wMbhmXdFEe/HW5lV From: GrnMtn_T_Roses@webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:42:41 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The New List Message-ID: <5770-41CF0621-323@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Meredith Bliss 's message of Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:33:05 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-25356-153 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=white; Background="http://www.wtv-zone.com/rosesnkatts/bgs4/aquawhswrlbg.jpg"; TextColor=darkgreen MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:42:47 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-25356-153 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit thanks Mr Bliss.. Now I have 6 sites re-adjust... but what the heck .. it's worth it. ~alan~ nothing belter to do today anyway~ Hoss --WebTV-Mail-25356-153-- From rab@jurislex.com Sun Dec 26 10:51:26 2004 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQIpQPc098472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:51:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38049364004; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41CF0831.8070504@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:51:29 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The New List References: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> In-Reply-To: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:51:27 -0000 Hey, Bud, you beat me to the punch. I think the double posts are because the old g'net is still up and some of us dummies have hit "reply all" to one or more of my posting that contained both addresses!! So, we are now on the way!! bob "good to get up to date" browning Meredith Bliss wrote: >Everyone from the old Grovenet at Easystreet has been subscribed to the new >list at Rdrop.com. Use the link at the bottom of this (and all) messages from >the new listserv to set your preferences or subscribe/unsubscribe. > >Thanks to Chris for doing a lot of the heavy lifting, so far (you wouldn't >believe how heavy this cyberstuff is!). > >I'm seeing some double posts, here, so there is still work to be done, but I >hope things will even out soon. Let us know about any other peculiarities you >see. > >We are also in receipt of the Grovenet archives from Easystreet. It will >probably be too large to make publicly accessible here, but if anyone has >thoughts on that, as well, let us know. > >---------------------------------------- >Just happy to be here, but speaking >only for myself! >Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss >---------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 12:15:23 2004 Received: from web53910.mail.yahoo.com (web53910.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.220]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBQKFNIc022448 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:15:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 26226 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 20:08:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=VMxSaHCrsDuG/eG6QMF9YiLuebGNix3pY8I/9BqjtPWhSvZ53HItcMh2duYLZTYOWOwB7ECHSTQjclau+IqSLSa8WNEnfazeCOLbeMZiJ9ZdRrsldP3OcYLM7QrZJIgQqvAJ0OfqvI5wTSKLwc9rkvaZoDF1Ci5Aurh7LM++DBo= ; Message-ID: <20041226200837.26224.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.126.216] by web53910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:08:37 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:15:24 -0000 First I'd like to say to Bud, Chris and John (and the wonderful company EasyStreet) thank you so much for your efforts on our behalf, especially conducted as they have been during a crazy and busy time of year. All Grovenuts tip their hats to you for your time and hard work. I'm sure when you need some money for what ever it took to make this go, you'll let us know. It would not be right that you also take the financial burden, so, if there have been costs, please say the word. I also like the request that we introduce ourselves. We are neighbors. Even though Robert lives in St. Helens and Anna lives in Texas and/or Colorado, cyber space makes the world small. Let's get acquainted. Many of us know each other well by now, but we all have our stories, and certainly our opinions. This list reveals so much of us. Here's a chance to expand the picture a bit, as Dick did so well and with such generosity. I urge even the well known members to say a few words about who you are and how you came to the list. This is a new beginning. I'm Eric Canon. I do all kinds of metal work, most with an artistic approach, but I specialize in brass and bronze. My wife works at Pacific University and we live in a wonderful house (we pinch ourselves) on Elm St. across from Andy and Lynn at Miracle Sign Co. I've lived in Forest Grove for twenty five years and I love this community, set in the Tualatin Valley as it is. We love to watch the different sky's we see out our window and as we travel around the area. Such beauty! We are Christians, but we embrace and celebrate all people and cultures and feel enriched by the diversity of the world. There is so much to learn from others. The way that works for us is not necessarily right for someone else, and vice versa, and that's OK. We prefer it like that and celebrate our differences. Every human has much more in common than what divides us. I came to the list via Richard, who used to be married to Kiera (I've forgotten here "handle" but she was/is a kick!), she who used to work at our library (she posted to this list with regularity you will remember). I've posted here maybe six or seven years (with a departure or two in-between). And I've made many friends here, very special people I would not have otherwise known. Grovenet is a treasure for many reasons, but it's diversity is remarkable and unique. The truth usually emerges here, and I like that, too. grovenet-request@rdrop.com wrote: Welcome to the new grovenet list hosted by rdrop.com. Thanks to Bud Bliss for arranging the service, and acting as a list administrator. Chris Genly is also a list administrator. For a short time you will be receiving posts from the old and new list. Once John Beaston throws the big switch at easystreet, you will only be receiving messages from the new list. Please enjoy!Welcome to the GroveNet@rdrop.com mailing list! Welcome to GroveNet! Please introduce yourself to the other members of the list in your first post. To post to this list, send your email to: grovenet@rdrop.com General information about the mailing list is at: http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your subscription page at: http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/options/grovenet/canonmetals%40yahoo.com You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: GroveNet-request@rdrop.com with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: odibom Normally, Mailman will remind you of your rdrop.com mailing list passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on your options page that will email your current password to you. From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 14:35:24 2004 Received: from web11404.mail.yahoo.com (web11404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.234]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBQMZNCs056683 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:35:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 61009 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 22:28:42 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=e889vKUy3pVk/UIeUW6h9t38FdWtWtxUkqh2Adu3tF/15XzGrKRCYJQJjrg+H9FmIjP0zraYoPeruIXopiiCytwDXL9RuH2lWQiWv2TZCQd3/ec0qSVFIwNMhyRYGd0k+gB5HpBWG+COaUYpVs0GsTamD7ErNvrRTuRv3slheW0= ; Message-ID: <20041226222841.61007.qmail@web11404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.177.101] by web11404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:28:41 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:28:41 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The New List To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41CF0831.8070504@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:35:24 -0000 Howdy, my name is Vickie and I've primarily been a voyeur, but I have enjoyed the diverse opinions, some make me think in a different way, some make me laugh but they are generally interesting to read. I like to pop a special interest of mine in every once in awhile but mostly I just read others posts. My husband, myself & our 2 children have lived in Dilley for about 17 years. I too like the community but it is growing fast. As some one on GroveNet said about 7 years ago, if you've lived here less that 15 years you are part of the problem. Now that made me stop and think because I had only lived here 10 years at that time. There are many things I love about the area and I guess we are here to stay. THANKS to everyone who make the GroveNet wheels go round and round! Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From rune@easystreet.com Sun Dec 26 14:40:12 2004 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBQMeBfW058010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rune@easystreet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975023936B for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Artemis.easystreet.com (69-30-8-241.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.8.241]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D976DC00D for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:39:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20041226134948.020ec3d8@pop.easystreet.com> X-Sender: rune@pop.easystreet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:39:45 -0800 To: Grovenet From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The New List In-Reply-To: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> References: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:40:12 -0000 At 10:33 AM 12/26/2004, Meredith Bliss wrote: >Everyone from the old Grovenet at Easystreet has been subscribed to the >new list at Rdrop.com. Great job! Thanks to Chris Genly and Bud Bliss for all their hard work, mostly behind the scenes, to accomplish a seamless transition. And thanks also to Easystreet, once again, for hosting the list with such a high level of reliability and service for the last ten years or so. As for the Grovenet website (still hosted by Easystreet), it could use some upgrading. The original design and graphics are still fine, but it would be nice to take a fresh look at it and make it more useful. Chris, our webmaster, has been very busy lately setting up the email list, but I suspect we could eventually persuade him to help out. With much help from Chris, I try to keep the content and links fairly current, but my HTML skills are modest at best. If anyone has any ideas on the subject, please contact me and I'll confer with Chris (when he has the time and patience to deal with all this). The site, of course, is at www.grovenet.org It has received about 60,000 hits since January, 2001. Now the Grovenet list has a new home to celebrate its tenth anniversary. Michael From edavie@oregonmta.org Sun Dec 26 17:14:03 2004 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBR1E2iF094127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBR17QNj018161 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: <002901c4ebb0$71be39c0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:07:28 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] New listservice X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:14:03 -0000 Congratulations all! You have done a masterful job! Ed Davie From edavie@oregonmta.org Sun Dec 26 17:22:24 2004 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBR1MNxa096079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBR1M9ed021394 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: <004b01c4ebb2$804b48a0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:22:11 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:22:24 -0000 Thanks Dick, I really like and appreciate this. Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dick La Jeunesse=20 To: grovenet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 1:04 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas I am posting my first message on the new server. I was an early member of the original Grovenet list and I am a true = believer=20 in this marvelous treasure we still share. I have met and kept many = friends=20 through the list and continue to learn much about what's going on in = the=20 area. The debates get spirited at times, but we can still take time = for a=20 coffee together at BJ's and confirm our mutual respect and friendship. A friend once told me that we have only three degrees of separation in = Forest Grove - when I go to Safeway, I will always see either you, or=20 someone who knows you. For a growing community of 18,000, or so, we = are=20 close, and I kind of like it that way. As for me, I am semi-retired from a 35-year career in high-tech = marketing=20 and sales, semi-self employed as a writer and semi-employed at the = local=20 bowling center (Rainbow Lanes) a few days a week. I am joyfully = married=20 with two kids at Forest Grove High and one in 4th grade; and I have = three=20 older children and three grandchildren from a prior life. I am a long suffering, lifelong Boston Red Sox fan who still cannot = fully=20 comprehend the miracle of '04. Four generations of my ancestors leapt = in=20 their graves when our Sox did the el-foldo to the Yankees to get into = the=20 Series and then we all about exploded when they swept the Cards. Oh = my! Some of you may remember me from 6 years on the FG School Board - a=20 fantastic experience and a huge challenge for me. I have the highest = regard=20 and respect for this school district - the primary reason we moved = here in=20 1993. I have a passion for those kids and the staff that serves them = so=20 well at such great odds. I am also a committed Christian - committed to the relationship, NOT = the=20 religion. I find great joy and peace in that relationship with the = all=20 powerful God who loves us all. This is who I am....... RADICALLY REAL CHRISTIAN When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not shouting, "I am saved.=94 I'm whispering, "I get lost" That is why I chose this way. When I say, "I am a Christian," I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble And need someone to be my guide. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not trying to be strong. I'm professing that I am weak And pray for strength to carry on. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not bragging of success. I'm admitting I have failed And cannot ever pay the debt. When I say, "I am a Christian," I'm not claiming to be perfect. My flaws are too visible, But God believes I'm worth it. When I say, "I am a Christian," I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches Which is why I seek HIS name. When I say, "I am a Christian," I do not wish to judge. I have no authority I only know I'm loved. --by Carol Wimmer Peace and love at Christmas. May you all find the joy of the season! Dick LaJeunesse _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chgenly@verizon.net Sun Dec 26 22:45:47 2004 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBR6jkjk070691 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:45:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041227064545.DAPN10436.out012.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:45:45 -0600 From: Chris Genly To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:45:44 -0800 Message-Id: <1104129944.16724.13.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:45:45 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] ** Please switch over to the new grovenet server. ** X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:45:47 -0000 Hello Grovenuts. Now that the new grovenet mailing list is up and running, please direct all your grovenet posts to the new list at grovenet@rdrop.com. This includes new messages, and replies to existing grovenet messages. So if you are replying to an existing grovenet message, and the TO address is grovenet@lists.grovenet.org, just change it to grovenet@rdrop.com. This will help your neighbors because once your message is sent to the new list, they wont have to redirect their replies to your reply. If you continue to send to the old server, messages will bounce when John shuts down the old server. John is looking in to the possibility of configuring things to make an invisible transition to the new server. But this may not be possible. Please avoid sending posts to both lists. That will simply end up delivering duplicate messages. Chris From musgnung@juno.com Sun Dec 26 23:55:56 2004 Received: from m03.lax.untd.com (m03.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.66]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBR7ttnh084696 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from musgnung@juno.com) Received: from m03.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m03.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA69RT8ACDZ99J for (sender ); Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: R56SufaaEJGyNzVk6E2cNMuNCtOrH8Ev0PElP150eNrgkJ7kQQfJUQ== Received: (from musgnung@juno.com) by m03.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFUEYZGA; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:47:53 PST To: grovenet@rdrop.com Cc: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:47:11 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello, and Merry Christmas Message-ID: <20041226.234712.6696.0.musgnung@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,4-5,7-9,15-16,22-23,25-26,28-31 From: Margaret H Musgnung X-ContentStamp: 9:4:1931635789 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:55:56 -0000 Hello all Grovenuts, and a Merry 12 Days of Christmas to you all. Yes this is the *real* 12 days, it is not the last shopping days....but I hope all have enjoyed and will enjoy a peaceful and love filled Christmastide and New Year. May all the problems be solved and all sides be saying the same thing one day...Imagine. if you can.... I am 90% lurker as well on Grovenet, I have beem a member since I got a computer, probably 8 years ago, I get tired of the threads being beaten to death, but continue to enjoy the cyber comraderie that persists among the opinions. I also enjoy getting the news about the Grove and computer updates, viruses etc. We seem to have a lot of computer gurus on the list, and it is appreciated by this computer neophyte. I am a empty-nesting mom just this year with two kids, teens both. And I am a hobbyist in wool, spinning and weaving. I like to ride bicycles on the road and in the gym, anyone up at 5:30 am? come on over to the local gym and get a great wake-up bicycle *spinning* routine going!! Have a garden that demands too much time on my aging body and do a bit of dental hygiene to make a few dollars to keep the kids in school. Thanks to those working to keep Grovenet alive, it is a very unique thing this *Hamlet* of Forest grove has! Oh yeah, I attend the Episcopal Church here in town, so I have understanding of the relationship that has been mentioned on this forum. Peace to all and to all a good night! Margaret From chgenly@verizon.net Mon Dec 27 06:02:08 2004 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRE27oL083159 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041227140206.WVRO27681.out007.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:02:06 -0600 From: Chris Genly To: grovenet@rdrop.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:02:05 -0800 Message-Id: <1104156125.19131.28.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:02:06 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Re: New Year Blessings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:02:09 -0000 This is quite an unusual posting. I enjoyed it. Thanks for the reminder. Chris On Mon, 2004-12-27 at 02:19 -0500, Tom Lowther wrote: > Greetings from Kosovo, I am in this country as a Civilian Police Officer for > the United Nations Peace Keeping Force, and have learned what we in America > and Forest Grove take for granted (at least I did). Water is the first > thing, first of all you can't drink it, cook with it or simply rinse your > tooth brush off with it. The water is turned off every evening between 10 > and 11 and turned on the following morning at 6:30 am. Electricity, it goes > off for several hours just about every day, and this is a very cold country. > The roads are all cobble stone, and when the snow melts, all of the mud > comes up between the stones, so the people simply walk in the mud. I think > now of what were big concerns when I was acting City Manager, and smile. I > hope each of you have a Happy New Year, and your utilities and roads remain > as good as they are. Tom Lowther > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Mon Dec 27 07:54:55 2004 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRFstCI022168 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:54:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id B6422D67C for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA11863; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:54:49 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQWLm2/bKOd3T8rpG4AsMUXWNA3VAIUcHyfDowpR7uiZ2CqtFkKBsUL1p0= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:54:49 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <17955-41D03049-1061@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] It's Monday X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:54:55 -0000 I certainly hope everyone made it trough the week end without much fuss.. all was well here on the mountain, however, I was disappointed we did not have a white christmas.. oh-well maybe next year. http://members.tripod.com/~linhager/html-2/punkin2.html ~alan~ did not get a chance to build a snowman ~ Hoss From annahendricks@juno.com Mon Dec 27 08:12:45 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBRGCjfH026565 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail01.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.141]) by smtpout06.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7ANZFAUEPXPS for (sender ); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:05:57 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOrGgOgmHLxyceFS7/4qBNo8Jmlpf51bpcE Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail01.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFVBGQCW; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:05:48 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail01.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:04:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:04:53 GMT To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041227.080548.28913.69380@webmail01.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 9:4:703982548 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:12:46 -0000 Okay, introduction... I am Anna Holland (Maiden Name: Henricks) I grew up in Forest Grove, as did my father, and grandfather. (In fact, I just found Grandpa's diploma from FGHS in I think '48!!) Eric, we have a few things in common..... You have lived in FG for 25 years....I am 25....So you moved to FG the year I was born. I try to tell my mom that I am magnetic, I draw people. Just kidding! You live across the street from Miracle Sign Company...I used to ride the bus with their son. Innnnttteeerrreeessstiing!! {:-) Okay, more about me...I was born at Hillsboro Tuality, I lived in FG until I was 17. We moved once, and we moved a couple of blocks, people here in Texas think that is funny. I moved to Texas when I was 17 to go to Bible School. I graduated in 1998, met my husband the month before I graduated, and we were married in Aloha on June 22, 2001. I enjoy travel, and helping people. I have been to India 3 times on trips that included orphanage and street work, Scotland & Ireland (Scotland: helped refurbish an old castle; Ireland: helped renovate a building that would be used as a church, and played with the kids in the projects) and Bulgaria (mainly youth work). I have two trips planned for 2005: Grenada in Jan. which I wrote about earlier this month, and the Philippines in July. Jason, my husband, and I have no children...but we have 2 cats and will have a dog next month. You can always look at our website for pictures and updates! www.hollandhaven.com Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work -- Eric Canon wrote: I also like the request that we introduce ourselves. We are neighbors. and Anna lives in Texas and/or Colorado, cyber space makes the world small. Let's get acquainted. we live in a wonderful house (we pinch ourselves) on Elm St. across from Andy and Lynn at Miracle Sign Co. I've lived in Forest Grove for twenty five years and I love this community, ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Mon Dec 27 08:41:33 2004 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRGfWWG033823 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 6AA35D665 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA12705; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRYOBiXd3SrCRqRNzPbzUI0WojWpgIUI6qOVTpK/ndXjDJlBllrkAYf+hE= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:41:27 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <17956-41D03B37-665@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-26186-323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=#F7E7EF; TextColor=#2F7F35 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Alan's Place X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:41:35 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-26186-323 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Just read that we should re-introduce ourselves.... so howdy ya'all ... I'm alan aka.. OleHoss http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/AlansPlace/ --WebTV-Mail-26186-323 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit




SultryRose's Signatures




--WebTV-Mail-26186-323 X-URL-Title: Alan's Place Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/AlansPlace/ --WebTV-Mail-26186-323-- From j1welch@earthlink.net Mon Dec 27 11:59:59 2004 Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRJxxA2089202 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j1welch@earthlink.net) Received: from [206.196.156.111] (helo=comp48) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cj0t3-0002tR-LT for grovenet@rdrop.com; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:50:37 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=SQcj3XP1TbLrszFekKzsKaVgllK95VdImPdgdh1kDdhjIQgPf/OnZDdraD/5u14Y; Message-ID: <001801c4ec4d$1d1b93c0$0500a8c0@domain.actdsltmp> From: "John Welch" To: "GROVENET" References: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: cf823d76730f5447d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc32e5df2e9b99d9b4f5ad3d923c3c603e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.196.156.111 Subject: [Grovenet] Re: New Year Blessings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:00:00 -0000 Tom - If I have correctly re-addressed this, I wish you a New Year Blessing right back. I'm sure that we could all stand to have a reality check that service in such difficult situations would provide. We miss you around the Grove ( and still miss you in Rotary). Best wishes. John Welch From annahendricks@juno.com Mon Dec 27 13:32:58 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBRLWv61015032 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail22.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.162]) by smtpout05.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7A94QAB3R2CJ for (sender ); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOrlYzfJ7qwzeLDc5x7KxnAIDYKKD7MkyTe Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail22.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFVV4SN9; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:31:20 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail22.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:30:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:30:34 GMT To: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041227.133120.23644.74609@webmail22.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:5:1840545089 X-MAIL-INFO: 4cc15d69e800b51cc5d515eca1ac3c896c25e1a10d798c01b9753d310511319d9d05281128284521f9658538dc95d998c8d961619888c888 Subject: [Grovenet] Sri Lanka & India X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:32:58 -0000 For those of you that pray, I request that you add my friends to your prayers today. Woody & Melanie Blok: Run an orphanage & Drug rehab in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Mrs. Padma Mudlair, her son John & his wife Sheba: Ministers & run an orphanage in Chennai, India. As, of now, I have been unable to contact them after the Tsunami hit them so hard. I am worried about them, and working on leaving them in God's hands. Thank you. Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From ebgenly@verizon.net Mon Dec 27 14:13:03 2004 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRMD1RN025816 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041227220634.LEQW17379.out008.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:06:34 -0600 Message-ID: <41D0871A.1050300@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:05:14 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! References: <20041227.080548.28913.69380@webmail01.lax.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041227.080548.28913.69380@webmail01.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:06:33 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:13:03 -0000
My Intro:

I am mostly a lurker on Grovenet, sometimes I get behind and have to delete 300+ postings unread, and start over.

I am Beth Blish Genly, wife to Chris, mother to two teens, one of whom is in her first year in art college in Chicago.  My kids are my pride and joy.

I grew up in Pennsylvania, not too far outside of New York City. We lived in a small town in the Poconos. Both my parents were writers.  (Those of you who read science fiction in the 50's and 60's may recognize the name, James Blish.)  My mother was a literary agent who founded her own agency, and I worked for her off and on in high school and through my college years.  I went to undergrad school in upstate NY, where I majored in French Lit, a subject I enjoyed mightily, and do not regret, but never "used."  (Ah, the unsung virtues of a liberal arts education!)  I worked for 9 years in the Boston area, mostly as a tech writer in a computer firm.  I met Chris there, and we married in 1981.

Chris and I moved to Connecticut in 1982, where I got a master's degree in nurse-midwifery in 1985. After that, we had our two kids.  I worked steadily as a nurse-midwife, either part-time or full-time.

We moved to Forest Grove in 1994.  I worked at Healthy Start Clinic, a facility for women without health insurance, with deliveries at Tuality Forest Grove Hospital (what a wonderful little birth center they had there!), until it closed for financial reasons in 1996. I became pretty close to fluent in Spanish during my tenure at Healthy Start, and developed tremendous respect for my hard-working, family-oriented clientele. After that, I eventually joined the nurse-midwifery faculty at OHSU, from which I retired (somewhat prematurely, due to exhaustion) this past August. 

Now I am building a business in nutrition, which is a terrific way to support people's health, without having to get up at night to do it!  I also still do an occasional stint of clinic or on-call labor and delivery work for the nurse-midwives on the Hill. And I'm working mornings at my son's school, Oak Tree School, helping kids learn to read.

Happy New Year!

Beth


From johnb@easystreet.com Mon Dec 27 15:59:00 2004 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBRNx0Zb061945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnb@easystreet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A672E42 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRUMPY2 (grumpy.easystreet.com [209.162.209.82]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090DD6DC01C for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:18:33 -0800 (PST) From: "John Beaston" To: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:20:16 -0800 Organization: EasyStreet Online Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTsYj2/S4Flxa5hQ9Sg71xlmezVng== Message-Id: <20041227221833.090DD6DC01C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: [Grovenet] The old Grovenet list X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: johnb@easystreet.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:59:01 -0000 The old list is gone. Long live the new list! If anyone attempts a posting to the old list, I'll get their message and issue the appropriate number of electronic lashes. -John The older old Grovenet list admin From ron@cobi.biz Mon Dec 27 16:32:19 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBS0WIeC072476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:32:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03BAB005 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:07:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Sri Lanka & India Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:07:25 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4ec71$3b68f3d0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041227.133120.23644.74609@webmail22.lax.untd.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBS0WIeC072476 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:32:19 -0000 As the news came in yesterday, I was struck by the image of total panic in the Hawaiian Island Tsunami center as they frantically called everyone they could think of in the affected areas to warn them of the impending disaster. All the government offices they managed to reach reported that they had absolutely no way to warn the people in their cities and villages along the cost - not even the big resort hotels. And so thousands and thousands died needlessly, while we rest here in the splendid isolation we Americans have chosen. Why is that, I ask? Is it to protect our "standard of living" from being diluted by the needs of others. Or perhaps conducting war is more important to America than working with the nations of the world to save lives. If Seaside rests safe from a surprise Tsunami, why not Sri Lanka? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Anna Holland Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:31 PM To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Sri Lanka & India For those of you that pray, I request that you add my friends to your prayers today. Woody & Melanie Blok: Run an orphanage & Drug rehab in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Mrs. Padma Mudlair, her son John & his wife Sheba: Ministers & run an orphanage in Chennai, India. As, of now, I have been unable to contact them after the Tsunami hit them so hard. I am worried about them, and working on leaving them in God's hands. Thank you. Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Mon Dec 27 19:26:41 2004 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBS3Qe2J018865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBS3QB7Q008556; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:26:18 -0500 Message-ID: <002401c4ec8c$fe79aca0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20041227.080548.28913.69380@webmail01.lax.untd.com> <41D0871A.1050300@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:26:13 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:26:41 -0000 Hi Beth, I was very fond of James Blish as a science fiction writer in = the 50s and 60s. I probably still have one or more of his books, if I = haven't given them to the library! Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Beth Genly=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! My Intro: I am mostly a lurker on Grovenet, sometimes I get behind and have to = delete 300+ postings unread, and start over. I am Beth Blish Genly, wife to Chris, mother to two teens, one of whom = is in her first year in art college in Chicago. My kids are my pride = and joy. I grew up in Pennsylvania, not too far outside of New York City. We = lived in a small town in the Poconos. Both my parents were writers. = (Those of you who read science fiction in the 50's and 60's may = recognize the name, James Blish.) My mother was a literary agent who = founded her own agency, and I worked for her off and on in high school = and through my college years. I went to undergrad school in upstate NY, = where I majored in French Lit, a subject I enjoyed mightily, and do not = regret, but never "used." (Ah, the unsung virtues of a liberal arts = education!) I worked for 9 years in the Boston area, mostly as a tech = writer in a computer firm. I met Chris there, and we married in 1981. Chris and I moved to Connecticut in 1982, where I got a master's = degree in nurse-midwifery in 1985. After that, we had our two kids. I = worked steadily as a nurse-midwife, either part-time or full-time.=20 We moved to Forest Grove in 1994. I worked at Healthy Start Clinic, a = facility for women without health insurance, with deliveries at Tuality = Forest Grove Hospital (what a wonderful little birth center they had = there!), until it closed for financial reasons in 1996. I became pretty = close to fluent in Spanish during my tenure at Healthy Start, and = developed tremendous respect for my hard-working, family-oriented = clientele. After that, I eventually joined the nurse-midwifery faculty = at OHSU, from which I retired (somewhat prematurely, due to exhaustion) = this past August. =20 Now I am building a business in nutrition, which is a terrific way to = support people's health, without having to get up at night to do it! I = also still do an occasional stint of clinic or on-call labor and = delivery work for the nurse-midwives on the Hill. And I'm working = mornings at my son's school, Oak Tree School, helping kids learn to = read.=20 Happy New Year! Beth -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From vzd1s0ul@verizon.net Mon Dec 27 20:19:32 2004 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBS4JVZ6030871 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:19:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vzd1s0ul@verizon.net) Received: from marion ([4.10.144.32]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041228041113.OIZN17379.out008.verizon.net@marion> for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:11:13 -0600 From: "Marion Hurt" To: "Grovenet" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:11:02 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4ec93$3eca00b0$0200a8c0@marion> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.10.144.32] at Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:11:13 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] reintroductions X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:19:32 -0000 As we are reintroducing ourselves on the new and improved Grovenet, I am Marion Hurt. I am one of those that live outside of Forest Grove, but have significant contact with the area. While I live in the Rock Creek / Tanasbourne area, I am the head librarian at the Gaston Community Library and am on the Library board. I am a retired elementary school librarian from Fairfax County in Virginia, outside Washington DC. We moved here about 8 years ago after I retired. What started out to be a simple project to help set up the children's collection at the Gaston Library has snowballed! I like to let you know about many of the new things that go on at the library and would like to invite you to visit us! While we are not a part of the WCCLS, they to provide us with a level of support in the form of collection development grants and support for our summer reading program. We have been honored by having WCCLS staff, especially Angela Reynolds who is the head of youth services for WCCLS, to come share stories with our children. Since the southern Gaston city limits coincides with the Washington County / Yamhill County line, we have attempted to provide free library services for all people in the Gaston area, including those in Yamhill County. In fact many of our patrons and volunteers are from Yamhill county. That brings me to another aspect of our library. We are an all volunteer library, so our hours are limited by the time our volunteers can put in. But we have some really devoted volunteers that put in quite a bit of time! We have been fortunate to have received a couple sizable bequests in the past couple years that have allowed us to make some physical changes and add more current, new materials to our collection. In fact we will be carpeting both rooms in the near future and are getting some new colorful additions to the furnishings in our children's room. One of the most common comments we hear are, "This is a real library!" or "I never knew it was this big!" or "I never knew you were here!" Stop in and check it out and find out that we are there and are a "real library!" We are located behind City Hall at 116 Front Street. Our hours are Tuesday and Thursday afternoons and evenings and Saturdays from 11:00 to 5:00. But not on January first, of course. We offer a family program the first Saturday of the month -- this month it will be Saturday, January 8th, though. From 11:00 to 12:30, with stories and crafts. Check out our web page as noted below. I also have a connection with Forest Grove, as my husband visits the Raines Dialysis Unit at the Forest Grove Hospital three days a week and for four hours on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I check out the attractions of Forest Grove. Goodwill, BiMart, Safeway, the Forest Grove Library, Valley Art, the neat book stores and antique shops and various restaurants. Now you know more about me than you ever cared to know! Marion Hurt, Librarian Gaston Community Library PO Box 129 Gaston, OR 97119 Telephone: 503-985-3464 e-mail: gastonlibrarian@comcast.net Web page: http://gastonlibrarian.home.comcast.net/ From mdharrigan@comcast.net Mon Dec 27 21:40:39 2004 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBS5ed6h050356 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdharrigan@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.111 (rwcrwbc15.attbi.com[204.127.197.125]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004122805352801300cbcqqe>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:35:28 +0000 Received: from [24.21.39.153] by 204.127.197.111; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:35:27 +0000 From: mdharrigan@comcast.net To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:35:27 +0000 Message-Id: <122820040535.21242.41D0F09F00044DC6000052FA2205886172020E09079D9D0E080B03@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Nov 22 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: bWRoYXJyaWdhbkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Repy X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:40:39 -0000 Thanks for the opportunity to re-introduce myself. I am Mike Harrigan and have lived in the Grove with my wife since 1999. I want to warn you now that I am a terrible typist so I will not have to slow down and fix everything. I have been a "lurker" and infrequent "poster" to the site. Although I contribute little I need to thank the regular participants for providing so much food for thought. I appreciate the diversity of opinions I find here. I turn to Grovenet for local news and for diversion from the work-a-day world. As we all know, few "important" events pass un-noticed here. My personal persuation is non-religious, but I appreciate hearing thoughful and constructive analysis for people purporting to be Christian. Grovenet is about the only place I can find that any more. From Oberzil@aol.com Mon Dec 27 22:48:37 2004 Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBS6macQ065833 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:48:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Oberzil@aol.com) Received: from Oberzil@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.dc.1cb35a90 (4262) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: Oberzil@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:48:28 EST To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5035 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] reel to reel? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:48:38 -0000 Does anyone have a reel to reel tape recorder which they might be persuaded to sell or trade? Oh, and my name is Mark Oberzil. I was born in Ohio in 1948, moved to California in 1954 and to Forest Grove in 1989. Thanks From annahendricks@juno.com Tue Dec 28 05:58:56 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBSDwuOB075978 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail06.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.146]) by smtpout02.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7C3WYAFWEBHA for (sender ); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOrDG3cSTTPDeae6nRLXCuCQWnzg+IN9ml3 Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail06.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFXNKMTM; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:58:07 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail06.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:57:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:57:43 GMT To: ron@cobi.biz, grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Sri Lanka & India X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041228.055807.21852.82478@webmail06.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 15:7:2096604494 X-MAIL-INFO: 203c3d58b9a53d2c7cb52cb9ad05993d5c78a8eda9a8a90905189531a9c8dc9855a8486115f8f1b5c17d3868916db559a171cc493c8d41a539412c2ca5b839b8b8ac6c450dbd7c0535b99dadb911119df5adf5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:58:57 -0000 Just wanted to let everyone know that so far, I still have not heard anything from either families. Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work -- "Ron D'Eau Claire" wrote: As the news came in yesterday, I was struck by the image of total panic in the Hawaiian Island Tsunami center as they frantically called everyone they could think of in the affected areas to warn them of the impending disaster. All the government offices they managed to reach reported that they had absolutely no way to warn the people in their cities and villages along the cost - not even the big resort hotels. And so thousands and thousands died needlessly, while we rest here in the splendid isolation we Americans have chosen. Why is that, I ask? Is it to protect our "standard of living" from being diluted by the needs of others. Or perhaps conducting war is more important to America than working with the nations of the world to save lives. If Seaside rests safe from a surprise Tsunami, why not Sri Lanka? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Anna Holland Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:31 PM To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Sri Lanka & India For those of you that pray, I request that you add my friends to your prayers today. Woody & Melanie Blok: Run an orphanage & Drug rehab in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Mrs. Padma Mudlair, her son John & his wife Sheba: Ministers & run an orphanage in Chennai, India. As, of now, I have been unable to contact them after the Tsunami hit them so hard. I am worried about them, and working on leaving them in God's hands. Thank you. Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From annahendricks@juno.com Tue Dec 28 07:37:12 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBSFbCaa098491 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:37:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail06.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.146]) by smtpout01.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7C9MZAMX3MXS for (sender ); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:36:23 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOrotlwwUbl9SFGbNvGbFUMv00d/QSKZzqh Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail06.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFXT5VF8; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:35:27 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail06.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:00 GMT To: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041228.073527.21852.83726@webmail06.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:4:2202182891 X-MAIL-INFO: 212e335a3f8aa7ef37abcfaf079f4f872a13c707bede7ecbce57aeeeebb3eed7d7ebfeb3fefe9a4aeafa8ebf2b6f038f43034e4e8f3e433e Subject: [Grovenet] Update X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:37:12 -0000 Just to keep you updated. I have heard from Melanie Blok's mother. (Melanie & Woody are in Sri Lanka) They are both ok, though quite shaken. Because they run an orphanage, they already had a stock of fresh water and some food so they should be ok. They did lose 1 child that left the compound for a reason I don't know, maybe running an errand or something, the body was found this morning. (Well, morning here.) Even with this tragedy, they are thankful that the rest of their children are ok. Still waiting to hear from my friends in India Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From ebgenly@verizon.net Tue Dec 28 08:16:34 2004 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSGGXCx012037 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:16:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041228161631.JQVM27681.out007.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:16:31 -0600 Message-ID: <41D1868E.1030305@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:15:10 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Update References: <20041228.073527.21852.83726@webmail06.lax.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228.073527.21852.83726@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:16:30 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:16:34 -0000 Anna, I am so glad to hear that your friends in Sri Lanka are safe, and so sorry about the lost child. I hope that you hear very very soon that your friends in India are safe as well. Beth Anna Holland wrote: >Just to keep you updated. > >I have heard from Melanie Blok's mother. (Melanie & Woody are in Sri Lanka) They are both ok, though quite shaken. Because they run an orphanage, they already had a stock of fresh water and some food so they should be ok. They did lose 1 child that left the compound for a reason I don't know, maybe running an errand or something, the body was found this morning. (Well, morning here.) Even with this tragedy, they are thankful that the rest of their children are ok. > >Still waiting to hear from my friends in India > > >Anna M. Holland >(469) 698-0844 Home >(214) 477-5813 Cell >(214) 658-1704 Work > >________________________________________________________________ >Juno Gift Certificates >Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. >http://www.juno.com/give > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > From steelem@pacificu.edu Tue Dec 28 08:51:31 2004 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSGpULT024674 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:39:26 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! Thread-Index: AcTsfXpgLbmaWhOHTd+k//HV3g5L0QAfgDsg From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:51:31 -0000 Hi folks....following the protocol here, it seems: my name is Mike Steele and I've lived in or near FG since 1975. From that date until now, I have been teaching English and Peace Studies at PU. Geri and I have four children, now mostly grown, who are scattered about the NW. It was good to see them all for this holiday season. It has been my pleasure and honor to serve on the FG School Board for the last eight years. I also work on other boards--the FG Library Foundation, Peace Village, and the US Handball Association. Handball is my preferred game but I have been giving golf a try in recent years. I love reading, writing (about a dozen books), working out, and good conversations....many of which happen here on GN. =20 =20 Happy New Year to all G-nuts!=20 =20 --Mike =20 =20 =20 From Phoenixacm@aol.com Tue Dec 28 09:20:02 2004 Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSHK0Nb034025 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:20:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Phoenixacm@aol.com) Received: from Phoenixacm@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.92.1cf89913 (3657) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:14:37 -0500 (EST) From: Phoenixacm@aol.com Message-ID: <92.1cf89913.2f02ee7c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:14:36 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:20:03 -0000 Hi, Marion, Nice to meet you (so to speak). I am Jane Burch-Pesses. I am a licensed acupuncturist, in fact, the only licensed acupuncturist in Forest Grove. I usually avoid the political discussions on Grovenet but comments on health or health care will bring me out of the woodwork. I also volunteer with the PAVTEC Gender Equity Team and one of our projects is providing minigrants to public school libraries for books on the contributions of women. (Email if you would like to talk about books sometime.) AND, I'm married to Michael the Magnificent, Director of Bands at Pacific University. Jane B-P From chuck@chuckriley.org Tue Dec 28 09:33:34 2004 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSHXYd8038130 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:33:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@chuckriley.org) Received: from katieshp (c-24-21-38-152.client.comcast.net[24.21.38.152]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004122817282201600puu53e>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:28:22 +0000 From: "Chuck Riley" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:28:01 -0800 Organization: Chuck Riley for State Representative Message-ID: <000c01c4ed02$a1a55120$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBSHXYd8038130 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chuck@chuckriley.org, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:33:34 -0000 Hi all, I'm Chuck Riley. I don't live in Forest Grove, but in Hillsboro. Starting Jan. 10th, however, I will represent Forest Grove in the state legislature. I have had the pleasure of being a Grovenut for about 3 years. In my "real life" I'm a retired business consultant, specializing in computer based solutions. I grew up in Southern Illinois and moved to Washington County (Aloha) by way of CA in 1979. My wife Katie and I moved to Hillsboro from Aloha in 1992. I will be hosting a town hall meeting in Forest Grove with a tentative date of Jan. 26 at 7:00. I will confirm and post details later, but put it on your calendar and I hope to see you and all your friends who want to give me their "point of view" about where the state should be headed. I hope you all had a very merry Christmas, and wish you a happy New Year. Representative Elect Chuck Riley, House District 29 Home: 503-640-8689 Cell: 503-936-5791 From Kathy.Ayala@nike.com Tue Dec 28 09:47:43 2004 Received: from barrierb241.nike.com (nbarrierb241.nike.com [146.197.27.40]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSHlhjX041584 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Kathy.Ayala@nike.com) Received: from beavertn-svr-r9.nike.com (beavertn-svr-r9.nike.com [146.197.20.109]) by barrierb241.nike.com with ESMTP id iBSHZebi011269 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 146.197.1.183 by beavertn-svr-n9.nike.com with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v5.0)); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:35:28 -0800 X-Server-Uuid: F122D6CD-24F0-4253-8986-549FB7942DF9 Received: from beavertn-svr-a0.nike.com (beavertn-svr-a0.nike.com [146.197.251.36]) by cammail1.nike.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id iBSHZRr07161 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from beavertn-svr-22.nike.com ([146.197.251.64]) by beavertn-svr-a0.nike.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:35:27 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6524.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:35:27 -0800 Message-ID: <836ACC888DC7AB4381098A69C4527E52038A80A4@beavertn-svr-22.nike.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] reintroductions Thread-Index: AcTtAkH2IkkM00ttQwClm47/cT5mWAAAGY7Q From: "Ayala, Kathy" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2004 17:35:27.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[9EACDC30:01C4ED03] X-WSS-ID: 6DCF46D51236662-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-H-S-Loop-Check-Ejzfr: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBSHlhjX041584 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:47:43 -0000 My name is Kathy Johnson, I read most of the e-mail that comes to me from Grovenet. But don't think I have ever replied to any thing. I mostly just try to keep an eye on what is going on in the Forest Grove area. I have lived in Forest Grove for the past 5 years. I work for Nike (Fixed Asset Accountant) and try to stay active with a number of activities that go on in the area. I came here from Hawaii (Hilo). I lived in Hawaii for 15 years, but was born and raised in Juneau, Alaska. I have one daughter who lives in Vancouver, Washington along with her 2 children and husband. Have a Happy and Safe Holiday Season. From canonmetals@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 09:48:07 2004 Received: from web53905.mail.yahoo.com (web53905.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.215]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBSHm620041711 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:48:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 40900 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Dec 2004 17:48:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JDYd/gj+hGoJiUMg6X87n1WSCZ+N7cRXqbTG3PfyP8i4VC7zMjQLGxitveeCEbwhJeZ/bXsTKcWv43+8QfCkzlk6B7I8ki8Uxlv/I/Bh3AhnSbFMNb+ayvJptez9mDAd/XYTvuDuzN/HGhaWJOSfsSe4xYList4IeGsOabZz5to= ; Message-ID: <20041228174801.40898.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.126.216] by web53905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:48:01 PST Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:48:01 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Repy To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <122820040535.21242.41D0F09F00044DC6000052FA2205886172020E09079D9D0E080B03@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:48:07 -0000 Thank you for writing this. In the past we've had complaints about all the religion and politics, and those two topics are major attractions to me to this list. I've learned a lot here, and I've felt we do those really well. The local stuff is great, too. I mean, we have Martha and her salmon connection, and Hoss with his roses and greetings. We have a lot of city personnel, past and present, who chime in once in a while, and the school board connections. And we have our local "experts", like David and Ron and Mark and Bob and Katie, who provide an excellent resource for all things legal and municipal (even cartoons!). The University always has things going on, and we hear about some of them here. Kurt and Jeanne Levy cover Valley Art from time to time, and I've learned so much about birds here! And then there's Ed and astronomy. And we have Geri who, to me, is like "Mom" with her encouragement and warmth. I like all the bases that we cover. Hopefully when the spirit moves you, Mike, you'll chime in as well. Flaming does occur, but, as Katie said, even that isn't so bad once you get used to it. I think the getting acquainted part of this list is real, and it buffers the feelings. We all have feelings. It's nice to know you're here, Mike. We've got a great group! Question for Bud and Chris: How many are we now? --- mdharrigan@comcast.net wrote: > Thanks for the opportunity to re-introduce > myself. I am Mike Harrigan and have lived in > the Grove with my wife since 1999. I want to > warn you now that I am a terrible typist so I > will not have to slow down and fix everything. > > > I have been a "lurker" and infrequent "poster" > to the site. Although I contribute little I > need to thank the regular participants for > providing so much food for thought. I > appreciate the diversity of opinions I find > here. > > I turn to Grovenet for local news and for > diversion from the work-a-day world. As we all > know, few "important" events pass un-noticed > here. > > My personal persuation is non-religious, but I > appreciate hearing thoughful and constructive > analysis for people purporting to be Christian. > Grovenet is about the only place I can find > that any more. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From chuck@grovenet.net Tue Dec 28 11:11:46 2004 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSJBjhU065251 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dsl-228-97.ipns.com [209.210.228.97]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id iBSHPQuO015747 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:25:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c4ed02$afc75410$660aa8c0@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:28:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:11:46 -0000 Ok...my turn I guess. First .... great job on the new list server. Thanks to Bob, Chris, and everyone who made it happen. I'm Chuck Underwood, commonly known as 'That Woodchuck Guy". Originally from Indianapolis (GO COLTS!) I moved to the Dallas/Ft Worth Area in the early 80's and got involved in semiconductors and computers. In '87 I moved to the beautiful city of Albuquerque, New Mexico to go work for a little, unknown company called 'Intel'. Was there through the late 90's until they downsized and we transfered here to Oregon so my wife could be closer to her parents in Wash State. Unfortunately Fab 15 Intel and I did not see eye to eye. So on Haloween of 1999 I left Intel and the corporate world completely to start 'my own little business'.....a little computer repair shop in a spare bedroom of our house. In July of 2002 I bought SAC/At The Grove and Woodchuck Computers officially began. We have grown much larger and quicker than expected over the last 2 years, so next week my lone wolf employee Jarrod and I move into our new location in the FG Shopping Center next to the new Quiznos. Please come see us! Hoping for a Grand Opening Feb 2 (Woodchuck Day). I'm a member of the FG Daybreak Rotary, Audio Technician for the FG United Methodist Church, member of the FG Chamber of Commerce and Trombone player in Everyone's Hometown Comunity Band! Happy New Year Everyone. Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Tue Dec 28 11:32:58 2004 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSJWwFD071720 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id D3BF7D6C5 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA06017; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:52 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAgWZtI829I3C192mNUi970y8cYoACFDiLRKjB7ig+/q3qi93o/c9OyQaB From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:52 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <14328-41D1B4E4-4097@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-19825-1833 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:32:58 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-19825-1833 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Eric & Mike.. Very well said ... I hope this new situation will bring out more lurkers... Ya know; I was just thinking about the first time I posted.. It was back in the fall of 1998 as I re-call.. My daughter Jennifer Lynn whom I named a test rose after by the way ... was here for a visit from Ca, and insisted I get a computer. Well computers and an OleHoss don't get on to well, but Jeni kept after to me. So to keep the peace .. one day we went into Sears, and started to look at was available. When the sales person heard me grumble to told us about webtv... and the rest is history... Anyway.. I finally got it hooked up, and started to see what was what... I also re-call how I came across the grove site, but when I put my first 2 cents in, and guess who was the first grover to reply?... it was TOSCA@prodigy.net .. Bonnie Combs.. and as I wrote the rest is history... ~alan~ a few cents now and then ~ Hoss Eric and Lurker Mike wrote ... Thank you for writing this Mike. In the past we've had complaints about all the religion and politics, and those two topics are major attractions to me to this list. I've learned a lot here, and I've felt we do those really well. The local stuff is great, too. I mean, we have Martha and her salmon connection, and Hoss with his roses and greetings. We have a lot of city personnel, past and present, who chime in once in a while, and the school board connections. And we have our local "experts", like David and Ron and Mark and Bob and Katie, who provide an excellent resource for all things legal and municipal (even cartoons!). The University always has things going on, and we hear about some of them here. Kurt and Jeanne Levy cover Valley Art from time to time, and I've learned so much about birds here! And then there's Ed and astronomy. And we have Geri who, to me, is like "Mom" with her encouragement and warmth. I like all the bases that we cover. Hopefully when the spirit moves you, Mike, you'll chime in as well. Flaming does occur, but, as Katie said, even that isn't so bad once you get used to it. I think the getting acquainted part of this list is real, and it buffers the feelings. We all have feelings. It's nice to know you're here, Mike. We've got a great group! Question for Bud and Chris: How many are we now? --- mdharrigan@comcast.net wrote: Thanks for the opportunity to re-introduce myself. I am Mike Harrigan and have lived in the Grove with my wife since 1999. I want to warn you now that I am a terrible typist so I will not have to slow down and fix everything. I have been a "lurker" and infrequent "poster" to the site. Although I contribute little I need to thank the regular participants for providing so much food for thought. I appreciate the diversity of opinions I find here. I turn to Grovenet for local news and for diversion from the work-a-day world. As we all know, few "important" events pass un-noticed here. My personal persuation is non-religious, but I appreciate hearing thoughful and constructive analysis for people purporting to be Christian. =A0=A0Grovenet is about the only place I can find that any more. --WebTV-Mail-19825-1833 X-URL-Title: Just A Rose Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/GrnMtn_T_Roses/JustARose/ --WebTV-Mail-19825-1833-- From ron@cobi.biz Tue Dec 28 13:15:10 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSLF9q1000584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:15:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18D2B00A for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:15:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:14:41 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000b01c4ed22$44f3b5f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <836ACC888DC7AB4381098A69C4527E52038A80A4@beavertn-svr-22.nike.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBSLF9q1000584 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:15:10 -0000 Hello: My name is Ron D'Eau Claire. That last name means, simply, "from clear water". It's French, of course, but from the American Midwest. I like to remind people that we picked up that part of the country when Napoleon was strapped for some ready cash. We got a lot of French names with the land. I was raised in Redlands, California. Today Redlands is a thoroughly modern suburb on the eastern edge of the Los Angeles metropolitan area. When I was a lad in the 1940's and 50's, Redlands looked just like Forest Grove does today - if you ignore the cars and cellular phones - right down to a private University in town. I can't profess to having a career. Instead, I've had a fascinating series of life adventures. Some of them include a photography business, working as a radio and radar technician on aircraft and later on large ships as a licensed radiotelegraph operator and radio and radar service engineer. I've been a licensed Realtor in California where I worked and lived on the beautiful Monterey Bay. I also developed a graphics business that replicated historic early American stencil art in homes from Pebble Beach to San Francisco. I had the great good fortune to be in management positions with some major businesses such as Ampex Corporation and the Hewlett-Packard company as they went through critical periods in their growth. I was allowed to observe and learn how such businesses adapt and respond to change. One consistent thing that I've done all my life is write. I've written thousands of white papers and "how to" manuals for everything from how to launch an ICBM from a submarine to how a bank tracks its depositor's money. Long ago I got over the feeling that I should get a "real job". It's more fun focusing on doing well by my clients and neighbors while exploring new ideas, meeting new people and discovering new and interesting challenges. At times a regular paycheck sounds mighty attractive but, as a wise person once told me, "If you love what you're doing, you never have to work a day in your life." In the 1990's Cobi and I decided it was time to leave the San Francisco area. It was simply too crowded for us. We found Forest Grove while doing something we enjoy: find somewhere new, walk the streets, meet the people and listen to their stories. We now live in the "old town" Clark District of Forest Grove. We are both Real Estate Brokers and have our own Real Estate office here, "Dutch Touch Realty". Cobi is well and truly Dutch, born in a little village in central Holland, but that's her story to tell. Next door to Dutch Touch Realty is Cobi's other love, "Two Bears in Oregon, Books". Cobi and I are the "Two Bears". I help Cobi in those two businesses while pursuing free-lance writing work, primarily over the internet. It all keeps us rather busy. Busy enjoying life. I consider myself a deeply religious person. My faith is a matter of the heart, not the mind; it is not dependent upon whether others agree with me. Following the precept of the Christian "Golden Rule", I do not evangelize because I find it distasteful when others do that to me. Rather, I prefer to express my faith in thought and actions instead of words. You'll find that I stubbornly reject any labels others have for me, because I have found that they never quite fit and become misleading. Similarly, I guard against applying labels to others. I find that labels are like blinders. They keep me from seeing the whole of another person. I am often quite opinionated, but I try to temper my opinions with the realization that I am often wrong. That's okay too, being wrong, because the one thing I've done even more than writing is learning. Being "right" means that I didn't learn anything. The lessons begin with being "wrong". In that view "wrong" is a blessing, and I have something new and interesting to learn. I learn a lot here on Grovenet. Thank you all who participate, each and every one. Ron D'Eau Claire From tosca@prodigy.net Tue Dec 28 13:51:36 2004 Received: from web81403.mail.yahoo.com (web81403.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.92]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBSLpZss011101 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:51:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tosca@prodigy.net) Message-ID: <20041228214450.6736.qmail@web81403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.242.201.232] by web81403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:44:49 PST Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:44:49 -0800 (PST) From: Bonnie Combs To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] New Grovenet introduction X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:51:36 -0000 Well, since OleHoss mentioned me, guess I should be next to introduce myself. I am Bonnie Combs, an opinionated geezerette who has been working on my family history here in FG for some time. I am descended from two parties of Oregon Trail pioneers. I am also fond of Italian opera (hence the handle) and of feline critters. My two are named Noelle and Missy. I garden and recycle and lately have been a GNet lurker most of the time. Can't write or express myself half as well as most of you, so rather than speak up and be known as a fool, I just stay quiet so you can only suspect it. I love the discussions on GNet and have met some of you wonderful people, which is really great. Thanks to all who make it so much fun. Bonnie From annahendricks@juno.com Tue Dec 28 14:22:39 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBSMMcdk019397 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail18.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.158]) by smtpout03.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7DZE9AUURQAA for (sender ); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOradKV4aB9CD/IRyEZZAmY9pleU1ShQ5zl Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail18.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KFYKEBVM; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:22:01 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail18.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:22:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:22:01 GMT To: Tosca@prodigy.net, grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet introduction X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041228.142201.17792.90286@webmail18.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 6:3:989040774 X-MAIL-INFO: 349dd15ca8b91811a8bcc9a898ccd1c848c59871c9b5d99161b5f89cb5e801715d1c4c8cc54dcc78cc1cd5e1ac19e9017d0d087d08ed556545a529b18d298dad794c0ca91d650c3ca500e198e1f93531393de1edd13d28b97cf15811bc989ddd5cd1090518950d5ca9c9a84d7d7978197965fc45456508bd4c21e891c9a1aca1680d4c15558c7958852c99853581cdcd353d9d281d05a8d10528d1bcf5ddd1f518d8a91d650c3ca500e198e1f93531393de1edd1685d0968e80969c5ac09c58c0d8855ec8c6ccce56c7878ccb1e5b1b138618998a129016500bd1d000c0cbd411d41 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:22:39 -0000 Bonnie, I also have two feline friends! Pippin & Romeo. Check 'em out on our website.. http://www.hollandhaven.com/pictures.htm Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work -- Bonnie Combs wrote: Well, since OleHoss mentioned me, guess I should be next to introduce myself. I am Bonnie Combs, an opinionated geezerette who has been working on my family history here in FG for some time. I am descended from two parties of Oregon Trail pioneers. I am also fond of Italian opera (hence the handle) and of feline critters. My two are named Noelle and Missy. I garden and recycle and lately have been a GNet lurker most of the time. Can't write or express myself half as well as most of you, so rather than speak up and be known as a fool, I just stay quiet so you can only suspect it. I love the discussions on GNet and have met some of you wonderful people, which is really great. Thanks to all who make it so much fun. Bonnie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From giantbug@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 15:22:55 2004 Received: from fallback-aspen.pas.sa.earthlink.net (fallback-aspen.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBSNMtpq035637 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giantbug@earthlink.net) Received: from pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.183]) by fallback-aspen.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1CjPac-0003B5-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:14 -0800 Received: from dialup-4.155.99.157.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.99.157] helo=MYCHAEL) by pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CjPaX-0005R1-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <003601c4ed2a$69d89ef0$0100a8c0@MYCHAEL> From: "Mychael Morohovich" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000b01c4ed22$44f3b5f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:13:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mychael Morohovich , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:22:56 -0000 Hi, everyone! My name is Mychael and I recently turned 42 years of age. Whereas the majority of you are local to one another, I am located much more than a stone's throw away in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My local connection is Ron D'Eau Claire [Dutch Touch Realty/Two Bears in Oregon book store] who turned me on to this list a few years back when I expressed an interest in life out his way. I am a stay-at-home father to a pair of kids aged 6 and 8. When I am not running after kids I am running a little mail-order business fabricating and selling electronic parts to builders of ham radio kits. Before that I was a professional pastry chef /chef at various upscale eateries here around town. I really used to enjoy cooking and baking, but trying to feed [and please] kids has put me off that for the time being. My interests include: ham radio, reading, music, and wearing kilts. Regarding that last mention, my wife Karen decided that I needed a new formal suit. Wanting to try something a little different, I chucked the idea of going to the Men's Warehouse and instead shopped the UK via the internet for a formal kilt outfit. One thing lead to another and I now have kilted attire for any occasion from formal to casual. When the temperature is in the 50s and up, my flannel lined jeans from LL Bean get tossed aside for the comfort of a kilt. I don't consider myself particularly religious... I do find myself wondering about things and I have a lot of questions that don't have answers and probably never will have answers. I am not one to subscribe to the notion that without religion there can be no morality. Mostly, I treat others as I would like for them to treat me and try to do a good deed from time to time. I believe in taking responsibility for my actions and try to imbue that same value in my children. I don't post very often, but I do like keeping an eye on happenings outside my own horizon for the different perspective that it provides. I hope that everyone here is having a good Holiday Season. Good wishes to all for the impending New Year! Mychael From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 16:11:23 2004 Received: from web11410.mail.yahoo.com (web11410.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.221]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBT0BMiq049770 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 47393 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 00:11:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=P+EYcn/o19I4ppIGWaLHjxX0NCdhYvsIEGIck90dSwNtOsbPNYnCJdOfI3u+mtM+9FKvmbB6o27fN0pyVuGvssVTEn8cNixuhvUl3Kz0xzP0Xp45Kab7NWQ4LdejJkDDtOXkpnzn4Y8NfqKYX8PQV6Iw+5kBRjZinB2j0GJrtdw= ; Message-ID: <20041229001121.47391.qmail@web11410.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.177.33] by web11410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:11:21 PST Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:11:21 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reel to reel? To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:11:24 -0000 I THINK the Hillsboro Friends Church MIGHT have one. Somehow I think I remember seeing one there. Good luck Vickie --- Oberzil@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have a reel to reel tape recorder which > they might be persuaded > to sell or trade? > > Oh, and my name is Mark Oberzil. I was born in Ohio > in 1948, moved to > California in 1954 and to Forest Grove in 1989. > > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 16:29:51 2004 Received: from web11410.mail.yahoo.com (web11410.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.221]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBT0Toh4055149 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 49151 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 00:29:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QbC2lvr5wTSLfcV+ZTcsrLBnjFZ+yi6uOuT+SqtySgsyaFaeC4K/eocNfR4R0sCPmoVCMqhG+O1umwWQAq0CXDk+UQ6I/MuUEIszQWRUOSFTYM2AQgUsCI+WLkJI0rjE5IwbTtET84gxU8ca5dV78ZgovkIPzpCwcuMNQKMbr5g= ; Message-ID: <20041229002949.49149.qmail@web11410.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.177.33] by web11410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:49 PST Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:49 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <92.1cf89913.2f02ee7c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:29:51 -0000 Hello Jane do you happen to have a list of recommended books for young girls. Our school is Swallowtail and we are pre-school age through 8th grade. I would be interested in recommendations as once a year we raise funds to expand our library. This re-introduction thing has been interesting as we get to learn ( or remind ) us about fellow GroveNuts thanks for your input Vickie --- Phoenixacm@aol.com wrote: > Hi, Marion, > > Nice to meet you (so to speak). I am Jane > Burch-Pesses. I am a licensed > acupuncturist, in fact, the only licensed > acupuncturist in Forest Grove. I > usually avoid the political discussions on Grovenet > but comments on health or > health care will bring me out of the woodwork. > > I also volunteer with the PAVTEC Gender Equity Team > and one of our projects > is providing minigrants to public school libraries > for books on the > contributions of women. (Email if you would like > to talk about books sometime.) > > AND, I'm married to Michael the Magnificent, > Director of Bands at Pacific > University. > > Jane B-P > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From ebgenly@verizon.net Tue Dec 28 16:51:17 2004 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT0pGvR061421 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:51:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041229005115.ZUVE7873.out006.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:51:15 -0600 Message-ID: <41D1FF33.8090909@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:49:55 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:51:15 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:51:17 -0000
Hi Vickie,

Since you posted this question to the list, I thought I'd tell you some of my favorites:

Emily of New Moon
Keep the Light Burning, Abby
Brave Irene (I remember the author on this one: William Steig. I pretty much like anything he wrote...)
Ozma of Oz -- I always liked this even better than The Wizard. I read all the Oz books, and liked all of them, but this was my personal favorite.
  (Does anybody remember the title of the  book where Ozma is disguised as a boy in service to a witch for most of the book? I loved that one, too.)
The Earthsea books, By Ursula Le Guin. The first one is A Wizard of Earthsea
The Enchanted Forest Chronicles, by Patricia Wrede, includes Talking to Dragons, and Calling on Dragons...
The Golden Porch

I'm sure more will occur to me as I think about it.

What a fun question!

Beth
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Vickie Madeoneup <whatsupy2k@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com> 


Hello Jane

do you happen to have a list of recommended books for
young girls. Our school is Swallowtail and we are
pre-school age through 8th grade.
I would be interested in recommendations as once a
year we raise funds to expand our library.

This re-introduction thing has been interesting as we
get to learn ( or remind ) us about fellow GroveNuts

thanks for your input

Vickie
From kathleen.jansen@intel.com Tue Dec 28 18:18:03 2004 Received: from orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (fmr17.intel.com [134.134.136.16]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT2I2Qj097758 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:18:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kathleen.jansen@intel.com) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc, v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id iBSJe5lE026088 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:40:05 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.54]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc, v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id iBSJe094006281 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:40:05 GMT Received: from orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.60]) by orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.2.35) with SMTP id M2004122811400525854 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:40:05 -0800 Received: from orsmsx403.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.209]) by orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:40:04 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:40:04 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ Thread-Index: AcTtFHe3gUVKLnK6SfuoSjPXaYlG8wAAHTSA From: "Jansen, Kathleen" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2004 19:40:04.0902 (UTC) FILETIME=[077E2460:01C4ED15] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBT2I2Qj097758 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:18:05 -0000 Please take me off your mailing list. Thank you Kathleen Jansen -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of alan Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:33 AM To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ Eric & Mike.. Very well said ... I hope this new situation will bring out more lurkers... Ya know; I was just thinking about the first time I posted.. It was back in the fall of 1998 as I re-call.. My daughter Jennifer Lynn whom I named a test rose after by the way ... was here for a visit from Ca, and insisted I get a computer. Well computers and an OleHoss don't get on to well, but Jeni kept after to me. So to keep the peace .. one day we went into Sears, and started to look at was available. When the sales person heard me grumble to told us about webtv... and the rest is history... Anyway.. I finally got it hooked up, and started to see what was what... I also re-call how I came across the grove site, but when I put my first 2 cents in, and guess who was the first grover to reply?... it was TOSCA@prodigy.net .. Bonnie Combs.. and as I wrote the rest is history... ~alan~ a few cents now and then ~ Hoss Eric and Lurker Mike wrote ... Thank you for writing this Mike. In the past we've had complaints about all the religion and politics, and those two topics are major attractions to me to this list. I've learned a lot here, and I've felt we do those really well. The local stuff is great, too. I mean, we have Martha and her salmon connection, and Hoss with his roses and greetings. We have a lot of city personnel, past and present, who chime in once in a while, and the school board connections. And we have our local "experts", like David and Ron and Mark and Bob and Katie, who provide an excellent resource for all things legal and municipal (even cartoons!). The University always has things going on, and we hear about some of them here. Kurt and Jeanne Levy cover Valley Art from time to time, and I've learned so much about birds here! And then there's Ed and astronomy. And we have Geri who, to me, is like "Mom" with her encouragement and warmth. I like all the bases that we cover. Hopefully when the spirit moves you, Mike, you'll chime in as well. Flaming does occur, but, as Katie said, even that isn't so bad once you get used to it. I think the getting acquainted part of this list is real, and it buffers the feelings. We all have feelings. It's nice to know you're here, Mike. We've got a great group! Question for Bud and Chris: How many are we now? --- mdharrigan@comcast.net wrote: Thanks for the opportunity to re-introduce myself. I am Mike Harrigan and have lived in the Grove with my wife since 1999. I want to warn you now that I am a terrible typist so I will not have to slow down and fix everything. I have been a "lurker" and infrequent "poster" to the site. Although I contribute little I need to thank the regular participants for providing so much food for thought. I appreciate the diversity of opinions I find here. I turn to Grovenet for local news and for diversion from the work-a-day world. As we all know, few "important" events pass un-noticed here. My personal persuation is non-religious, but I appreciate hearing thoughful and constructive analysis for people purporting to be Christian.   Grovenet is about the only place I can find that any more. From robert@vannattabros.com Tue Dec 28 19:58:46 2004 Received: from apollo.email.starband.net (apollo.email.starband.net [148.78.247.132]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT3wjoc033502 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apollo.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBT3wxJs004436; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:59:06 -0500 Message-ID: <032a01c4ed5b$199f65a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000b01c4ed22$44f3b5f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:01:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 03:58:46 -0000 I guess if we have to admit who we are I should join the crowd and do so likewise. Different from most of the bios I've seen so far, I was actually born in Washington county ( Hillsboro to be exact) almost 60 years ago. I don't know exactly how big Hillsboro was in 1945, but census reports put Hillsboro at 3747 in 1940 and 5100 in 1950. though I have a very Dutch name, I am not part of the Dutch clans that settled in the FG area in the 19th century and which still dominate the rural part of the region. My father was born in St. Helens in 1906, and his mother had grown up in St. Helens, a daughter of a logger. in 1929 my Father opened a law office in St. Helens, an office that I still use to this day. In 1940 my father sunk what ever money he had in the purchase of a 'stump farm' in central Columbia county'. It was a portion of a much larger part of the county that had been logged by the railroad loggers in the early part of the century and simply abandoned --- classic cut and run. He evnisioned raising some cattle between the stumps. He couldn't afford good farm land so this was sort of a substitute. It wasn't close to town either, nor did it have a road to it. He bought the land by pointing to a map at the courthouse and had to hire a surveyor to even find the place which was miles from a rock road. The war was soon on and his vision of running the ranch with hired help became impossbile with the advent of a war induced labor shortage. He moved his family to the ranch and practiced law part time working on the ranch the rest of the time. by and by I came along and am now living on the ranch in a house within site of my childhood home. After 30 years of living on the ranch and commuting to St. Helens to the Law office where I practiced law a few years ago, I folded the law practice back to 1 day a week and spend the rest of the time working on the ranch. The cattle never worked out well though we still have some as the trees took the place over. Various members of the family have been harvesting timber off the stump far since about 1965. In my spare time over thet last 40 years I have built, rocked and maintain around 15 miles of private logging road, and since I have cut back the law practice, I am also doing the diesel mechanic work, and driving the family log truck to deliver our goods to market. Since over the years Stimpson's mill in Scoggins Valley has been a significant market to us, lovely FG is not unknown to us, though I often see it through the lense of a log truck driver. In rural Oregon things only happen because people make them happen, and of course, besides no roads to the ranch in 1940, there was likewise no electric power or phone or much else. The local nonprofit Rural Electric Cooperative based in Vernonia found its way to the ranch with power lines in 1963, making me one of the diminishing group of people who can remember 'when the lights came on' though actually I was away at college at the time. While others take electric power for granted and just gripe about the bill, I'm one who knows a bit about the difffficulties of making it happen. In appreciation of having electric power, I have spent the last 18 years serving as a director of the non-profit Co-op (West Oregon Electric) which has lines to this day in a variety of forgettable and remote locations from near Astoria to places south of FG which you might recognize such as Scoggins Valley, Cherry Grove, Pike, and Fairdale. Nothing, of course, is easy, and phones don't show up just because either, and in the early 1980's after trying to figure out for years how to get a phone, we actually bought a cable plow, and plowed 3 miles of underground phone wire in order to get phone service. by 1980 My mother had died, and she was the law office bookkeeper. so I decided that computers must be the solution to accounting, so I bought a big shiney Radio Shack computer complete with a couple 8" floppy drives. Quickbooks hadn't been invented, and in 1980 if you wanted software you wrote it so I did. I rounded up some public domain accounting code, a compiler and headed for the basement. After a few weeks I could actually make an editor and a compiler work and the ultimate result was 30,000 lines of programming code which made up a full accounting package which is still in use today in my law office. (with the benefit of a new compiler I was able to migrate the code from CP/M for which it was first written, to DOS) which is why the code lives on. My oldest daughter spent quite a bit of time sitting on my lap, and apparently something rubbed off as she get a degree in computer science and spent a good many years working in a Dilbert style cube in the Silicon Valley writing computer code. My lastest gig is worrying about the digital divide, and trying to do something about it, so I am in my spare time a director of NOANET, a non-profit business started by a group of electric cooperatives designed to provide backbone fiber optic service around the State. so far, it seems FG is one of our failures. The fiber is dangling dead and dark at the BPA substation near FG, but alas no one in FG is interested (at least interested enough to put in the $$$ required) to extend that fiber to every door and make a 'tripple play' as we call it in the industry . (In a 'tripple play', fiber to the door supports, VOIP, internet, and cable tv, and the water meter, and electric meter can be hooked in for remote reading as well. From ron@cobi.biz Tue Dec 28 20:13:14 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT4DEnA036829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:13:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46D12951F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:13:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:12:47 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4ed5c$acdc7640$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <032a01c4ed5b$199f65a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBT4DEnA036829 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 04:13:14 -0000 Fantastic bio Robert, thanks. It's really good to learn something about the names I don't know and to get reacquainted with many of the familiar names here. I have learned something significant and interesting about every one. I have a little card that says it all: "We are our life's stories". Thank you all! Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Robert VanNatta [mailto:robert@vannattabros.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:02 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions I guess if we have to admit who we are I should join the crowd and do so likewise. Different from most of the bios I've seen so far, I was actually born in Washington county ( Hillsboro to be exact) almost 60 years ago. I don't know exactly how big Hillsboro was in 1945, but census reports put Hillsboro at 3747 in 1940 and 5100 in 1950.... From robert@vannattabros.com Tue Dec 28 21:15:44 2004 Received: from apophis.email.starband.net (apophis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.50]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT5Fhcq056637 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:15:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apophis.email.starband.net (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBT5GGnR020410; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:16:21 -0500 Message-ID: <048801c4ed65$deed7400$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000c01c4ed02$a1a55120$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:18:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Re:Rolling a log to Chuck Riley. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 05:15:44 -0000 Nat. I got a point of view. Presently cities, and various outher political subdivisions are authorized by law to be in the telecommunications business---for example the City of Monmouth is working on a fiber to the door project, and others are thinking about it (and FG merely should be thinking about it). All this thinking is very alarming to the Qwests and Verizons and worldcoms of the world who don't want anyone cutting in on their business---even if they have no intention of providing service anytime soon. Consequently the traditional TELCO's will be sponsering legislation to ban cities from offering telecommunications services to their residents. I would hope that you wouldn't side up with Qwest and Verizon on this matter, and would be inclined to think that if a city were inclined to string fiber to the door of its residents, that would be a good thing and not something so evil that it should be against the law. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Riley" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:28 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! > Hi all, I'm Chuck Riley. I don't live in Forest Grove, but in Hillsboro. > Starting Jan. 10th, however, I will represent Forest Grove in the state > legislature. I have had the pleasure of being a Grovenut for about 3 years. > In my "real life" I'm a retired business consultant, specializing in > computer based solutions. I grew up in Southern Illinois and moved to > Washington County (Aloha) by way of CA in 1979. My wife Katie and I moved > to Hillsboro from Aloha in 1992. I will be hosting a town hall meeting in > Forest Grove with a tentative date of Jan. 26 at 7:00. I will confirm and > post details later, but put it on your calendar and I hope to see you and > all your friends who want to give me their "point of view" about where the > state should be headed. I hope you all had a very merry Christmas, and wish > you a happy New Year. > > Representative Elect Chuck Riley, House District 29 > Home: 503-640-8689 > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Dec 28 22:15:19 2004 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT6FISZ075976 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041229060657.ZJBC28362.out005.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:06:57 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:06:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: David Morelli To: grovenet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:06:56 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Season's Greetings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:15:20 -0000 From: David Morelli Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:35:39 AM US/Pacific To: grovenet Subject: Re: Season's Greetings This can be a stressful time of the year and everyone deserves peace. And I hope every one gets it, heaped up and overflowing. Not everyone shares a common mid-winter festival. Not everyone shares a common faith. So, I didn't specify a festival or religious perspective. David Since it is the Christmas Season, On Sunday, December 26, 2004, at 08:36 AM, Julie Larson wrote: > What does that mean, David? > > >> [Original Message] >> From: David Morelli >> To: grovenet@grovenet.org mailing list >> Date: 12/24/2004 4:07:02 PM >> Subject: Season's Greetings >> >> I hope that everyone on Grovenet receives the Peace that all of you >> deserve. >> >> David >> > > > From chgenly@verizon.net Tue Dec 28 22:15:51 2004 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT6Fo0c076191 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041229061550.ZKFK28362.out005.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:15:50 -0600 Subject: RE: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ From: Chris Genly To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:15:44 -0800 Message-Id: <1104300944.3634.3.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:15:49 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:15:51 -0000 She has been removed from the list as requested. Chris On Tue, 2004-12-28 at 11:40 -0800, Jansen, Kathleen wrote: > Please take me off your mailing list. > Thank you > > > Kathleen Jansen > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of alan > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:33 AM > To: GroveNet@rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] ~ The New GroveNet ~ > > Eric & Mike.. > Very well said ... I hope this new situation will bring out more > lurkers... > Ya know; I was just thinking about the first time I posted.. It was back > in the fall of 1998 as I re-call.. > My daughter Jennifer Lynn whom I named a test rose after by the way ... > was here for a visit from Ca, and insisted I get a computer. > Well computers and an OleHoss don't get on to well, but Jeni kept after > to me. So to keep the peace .. one day we went into Sears, and started > to look at was available. When the sales person heard me grumble to > told us about webtv... and the rest is history... > Anyway.. I finally got it hooked up, and started to see what was what... > I also re-call how I came across the grove site, but when I put my first > 2 cents in, and guess who was the first grover to reply?... it was > TOSCA@prodigy.net .. Bonnie Combs.. > and as I wrote the rest is history... > > ~alan~ a few cents now and then ~ Hoss > > Eric and Lurker Mike wrote ... > Thank you for writing this Mike. > In the past we've had complaints about all the religion and politics, > and those two topics are major attractions to me to this list. I've > learned a lot here, and I've felt we do those really well. > The local stuff is great, too. I mean, we have Martha and her salmon > connection, and Hoss with his roses and greetings. We have a lot of city > personnel, past and present, who chime in once in a while, and the > school board connections. And we have our local "experts", like David > and Ron and Mark and Bob and Katie, who provide an excellent resource > for all things legal and municipal (even cartoons!). The University > always has things going on, and we hear about some of them here. Kurt > and Jeanne Levy cover Valley Art from time to time, and I've learned so > much about birds here! And then there's Ed and astronomy. And we have > Geri who, to me, is like "Mom" with her encouragement and warmth. > I like all the bases that we cover. > Hopefully when the spirit moves you, Mike, you'll chime in as well. > Flaming does occur, but, as Katie said, even that isn't so bad once you > get used to it. I think the getting acquainted part of this list is > real, and it buffers the feelings. We all have feelings. > It's nice to know you're here, Mike. We've got a great group! > Question for Bud and Chris: How many are we now? > --- mdharrigan@comcast.net wrote: > Thanks for the opportunity to re-introduce myself. I am Mike Harrigan > and have lived in the Grove with my wife since 1999. I want to warn you > now that I am a terrible typist so I will not have to slow down and fix > everything. > I have been a "lurker" and infrequent "poster" to the site. Although I > contribute little I need to thank the regular participants for providing > so much food for thought. I > appreciate the diversity of opinions I find here. > I turn to Grovenet for local news and for diversion from the work-a-day > world. As we all know, few "important" events pass un-noticed here. > My personal persuation is non-religious, but I appreciate hearing > thoughful and constructive analysis for people purporting to be > Christian. > Grovenet is about the only place I can find that any more. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chuck@chuckriley.org Tue Dec 28 22:32:51 2004 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT6WpMA080077 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@chuckriley.org) Received: from katieshp (c-24-21-38-152.client.comcast.net[24.21.38.152]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004122906324501600pnq5pe>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:32:45 +0000 From: "Chuck Riley" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Re:Rolling a log to Chuck Riley. Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:32:33 -0800 Organization: Chuck Riley for State Representative Message-ID: <000701c4ed70$36488960$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <048801c4ed65$deed7400$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBT6WpMA080077 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chuck@chuckriley.org, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:32:52 -0000 Robert, I saw this off of grovenet first and answered it there. After reading your bio post I understand the interest, and as I said I tend to agree and will let you know if any bill shows up. You will probably want to testify! Representative Elect Chuck Riley, House District 29 Home: 503-640-8689 Cell: 503-936-5791 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Robert VanNatta Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:19 PM To: chuck@chuckriley.org; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Re:Rolling a log to Chuck Riley. Nat. I got a point of view. Presently cities, and various outher political subdivisions are authorized by law to be in the telecommunications business---for example the City of Monmouth is working on a fiber to the door project, and others are thinking about it (and FG merely should be thinking about it). All this thinking is very alarming to the Qwests and Verizons and worldcoms of the world who don't want anyone cutting in on their business---even if they have no intention of providing service anytime soon. Consequently the traditional TELCO's will be sponsering legislation to ban cities from offering telecommunications services to their residents. I would hope that you wouldn't side up with Qwest and Verizon on this matter, and would be inclined to think that if a city were inclined to string fiber to the door of its residents, that would be a good thing and not something so evil that it should be against the law. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Riley" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:28 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] New Grovenet! > Hi all, I'm Chuck Riley. I don't live in Forest Grove, but in > Hillsboro. Starting Jan. 10th, however, I will represent Forest Grove > in the state legislature. I have had the pleasure of being a Grovenut > for about 3 years. > In my "real life" I'm a retired business consultant, specializing in > computer based solutions. I grew up in Southern Illinois and moved to > Washington County (Aloha) by way of CA in 1979. My wife Katie and I > moved to Hillsboro from Aloha in 1992. I will be hosting a town hall > meeting in Forest Grove with a tentative date of Jan. 26 at 7:00. I > will confirm and post details later, but put it on your calendar and I > hope to see you and all your friends who want to give me their "point > of view" about where the state should be headed. I hope you all had a > very merry Christmas, and wish > you a happy New Year. > > Representative Elect Chuck Riley, House District 29 > Home: 503-640-8689 > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Dec 28 23:00:38 2004 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT70bt8085831 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041229070036.EPAD1106.out003.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:00:36 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:00:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: David Morelli To: grovenet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4F6CA729-5967-11D9-9A70-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:00:36 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Introduction X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:00:38 -0000 Hi, I'm David Morelli and I am a computer-holic. HI DAVID. I spend a lot of time on the computer and my wife resents that. WE KNOW. I believe that the quality of a discussion depends upon the quality of the evidence used. So, when I encounter something that appears questionable, I try to confirm or deny the information. Most of the time, I learn something new. And that is a lot of fun. Some times I find that some critical piece is missing or some part has been mis-stated. So I post my source and question the discrepancy. WHO CARES? I also am very opinionated about science, religion, politics, economics, traffic, community items, and the like. WE NOTICED. Eric referred to me as an "expert". That may be a good description. After all, an "ex-spurt" is a "has-been, drip under pressure", and that might apply. AMEN Other than that, except for military service, I have lived in Washington County since 1960, and lived or worked in Forest Grove for twenty years or so. My children were educated in District 15. My wife provides tours of Historic Forest Grove, and is on the committee to purchase and restore the home of Western Washington County's first permanent resident, Alvin T. Smith. We are both involved as sponsors of the Class #6 in the "I Have A Dream, Oregon" program. They are the largest dreamer class in the nation. Oh, I did live in California. The version of urban planning I saw practiced there does not appeal to me, so I am not happy to see it repeated here. David From lowther_7@hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 00:16:23 2004 Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-f8.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.245.8]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT8GM3F001628 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lowther_7@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:59:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 217.170.243.105 by by1fd.bay1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:58:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.170.243.105] X-Originating-Email: [lowther_7@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lowther_7@hotmail.com From: "Tom Lowther" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:58:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Dec 2004 07:59:02.0064 (UTC) FILETIME=[42802B00:01C4ED7C] Subject: [Grovenet] FW: New Year Blessings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:16:25 -0000

Greetings from Kosovo, I am in this country as a Civilian Police Officer for the United Nations Peace Keeping Force, and have learned what we in America and Forest Grove take for granted (at least I did). Water is the first thing, first of all you can't drink it, cook with it or simply rinse your tooth brush off with it. The water is turned off every evening between 10 and 11 and turned on the following morning at 6:30 am.  Electricity, it goes off for several hours just about every day, and this is a very cold country. The roads are all cobble stone, and when the snow melts, all of the mud comes up between the stones, so the people simply walk in the mud.  

I think now of what were big concerns when I was acting City
Manager, and smile.  I hope each of you have a Happy New Year, and your utilities and roads remain as good as they are.  Tom Lowther
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Monitor your Hotmail inbox from MSN Messenger while chatting with friends – see how! From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 00:21:18 2004 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f30.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.40]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT8LF8d002908 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:21:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:20:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.197.211 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:19:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.197.211] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <200412261033.05953.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: RE: [Grovenet] The New List Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:19:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Dec 2004 08:20:00.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[30D19E90:01C4ED7F] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:21:19 -0000 Can the archives be posted on a community web site, such as the City of Forest Grove, or the Chamber? Dick >From: Meredith Bliss >Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >To: GroveNet@rdrop.com >Subject: [Grovenet] The New List >Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:33:05 -0800 > >Everyone from the old Grovenet at Easystreet has been subscribed to the new >list at Rdrop.com. Use the link at the bottom of this (and all) messages >from >the new listserv to set your preferences or subscribe/unsubscribe. > >Thanks to Chris for doing a lot of the heavy lifting, so far (you wouldn't >believe how heavy this cyberstuff is!). > >I'm seeing some double posts, here, so there is still work to be done, but >I >hope things will even out soon. Let us know about any other peculiarities >you >see. > >We are also in receipt of the Grovenet archives from Easystreet. It will >probably be too large to make publicly accessible here, but if anyone has >thoughts on that, as well, let us know. > >---------------------------------------- >Just happy to be here, but speaking >only for myself! >Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss >---------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 00:53:07 2004 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f6.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.16]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBT8r6JW011423 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:53:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.197.211 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:52:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.197.211] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <032a01c4ed5b$199f65a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:52:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Dec 2004 08:53:00.0908 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD008AC0:01C4ED83] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:53:07 -0000 Holy cow, Robert! When I was on the school board, we were begging the city to consider extending their local electric utility into fiber service to help us network our school systems. At the time, local CATV cables were literally rotting on the poles and the company was not interested in doing anything about them. We had to threaten a lawsuit to get them to upgrade the lines. The transition to ATT and then Comcast has us with some fiber service, but at a high cost. What a great opportunity for "last mile" service - we already have the infrastructure in the City Light and Power. Let's get a lower cost alternative to Verizon and Comcast and make our utilities even more efficient at the same time. Talk about bandwidth! Is anyone else interested in approaching our city management about the idea? School District? Light and Power? Cable customers? Pacitfic? Internet users? (some of us flat landers can't use satellites because of all the big trees in our yards). Yikes - what a great issue. I could get really excited about his one. Dick Robert wrote: My lastest gig is worrying about the digital divide, and trying to do something about it, so I am in my spare time a director of NOANET, a non-profit business started by a group of electric cooperatives designed to provide backbone fiber optic service around the State. so far, it seems FG is one of our failures. The fiber is dangling dead and dark at the BPA substation near FG, but alas no one in FG is interested (at least interested enough to put in the $$$ required) to extend that fiber to every door and make a 'tripple play' as we call it in the industry . (In a 'tripple play', fiber to the door supports, VOIP, internet, and cable tv, and the water meter, and electric meter can be hooked in for remote reading as well. From rlo42@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 06:50:31 2004 Received: from web14208.mail.yahoo.com (web14208.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.72]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBTEoVag089899 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 73963 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 14:43:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=MIzx8VdOZk0onOk8Rit9NWnNNTicjxWZQg2hZy71OCpfcC04VruDNEZOD8q+TMIxZp2BzqsWnRZP0YxxFhEnwkcayQvLde1oN9ozyu9VD6/bBeU50ohMnYGfv2gIv7Br5FmAqN/5RYAvtgQiRxDJjlxvK22cQ25fm82ZYvICyX8= ; Message-ID: <20041229144350.73961.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.78.91.46] by web14208.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:43:49 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41D1FF33.8090909@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:50:32 -0000 Gnutters.... I seem to be one of few....The Grove has always been a part of my life since the earliest days of life! :) Altho born in the BIG city of Portland my folks have always lived in WashCo, well at least since my older sis was born! ;) Anyway my main postings to Gnet are usually to remind people of a FANTASTIC service by one of the local business. Olson's Bikes has several Bike Helmet Clinics and I usually, along with Cecilia Warner, who by the way is an EXCELLENT TRAINED PROFESSIONAL Helmet Fitter, try to post announcements about when those clinics will be. [Disclaimer: I have ABSOLUTELY NO OWNERSHIP OF THIS LOCAL BUSINESS! :)] While technically a "LURKER", there are certain points I like to make. Usually try to take a lighter side because if you don't smile, well then....... As such, there are certain things I do know...#1, I don't know if he ever got the credit that was deserved but Mr. Browning was a key figure in any of you who dial Portland. :) And I am usually the one that clarifys the name of the mill in Scoggin's valley...while referred to in the only darn daily rag we can all get, The flipping Oregonian as Simpson Timber Company, (This was in regards to the Pioneer Square CHRISTMAS Tree that was donated), it is also commonly referred to as Stimpson, and various other butcherings, but just to make my point again, the name of the mill is Stimson Lumber Company! :) Yes, I have a L-O-N-G attachment as does someone else on the list! Hoping to be as vague as possible, remaining mostly a lurker, hoping to provide a smile...... "Humbly yours...and more than we will read from Steven"..........................................+rlo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. From robert@vannattabros.com Wed Dec 29 06:55:05 2004 Received: from artemis.email.starband.net (artemis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTEt4UC090832 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:55:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by artemis.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBTFlmHP031046 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:47:54 -0500 Message-ID: <079501c4edb6$d090d540$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:58:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:55:05 -0000 One of the really nice things about the new generation fiber networks such as Noanet is that unlike the stuff from the phone company, the end user does not have to designate a circuit of a particular size or capacity which is then 'hard wired'. Instead, one of the products offered is 'Gig-E' service (Gigabyte Ethernet), and fractional parts thereof. the actual bandwidth that customer 'sees' is simply a setting in a router somewhere. this means the customer can get the exact bandwidth they want instead of having to buy the next size up pipe and making a hardware change every time they change pipe sizes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions > Holy cow, Robert! When I was on the school board, we were begging the > city to consider extending their local electric utility into fiber service > to help us network our school systems. At the time, local CATV cables were > literally rotting on the poles and the company was not interested in doing > anything about them. We had to threaten a lawsuit to get them to upgrade > the lines. The transition to ATT and then Comcast has us with some fiber > service, but at a high cost. > > What a great opportunity for "last mile" service - we already have the > infrastructure in the City Light and Power. Let's get a lower cost > alternative to Verizon and Comcast and make our utilities even more > efficient at the same time. Talk about bandwidth! > > Is anyone else interested in approaching our city management about the idea? > School District? Light and Power? Cable customers? Pacitfic? Internet > users? (some of us flat landers can't use satellites because of all the big > trees in our yards). > > Yikes - what a great issue. I could get really excited about his one. > > Dick > > Robert wrote: > > My lastest gig is worrying about the digital divide, and trying to do > something about it, so I am in my spare time a director of NOANET, a > non-profit business started by a group of electric cooperatives > designed to provide backbone fiber optic service around the State. > so far, it seems FG is one of our failures. The fiber is dangling dead > and dark at the BPA substation near FG, but alas no one in FG is interested > (at least interested enough to put in the $$$ required) > to extend that fiber to every door and make a 'tripple play' as we call it > in the industry . (In a 'tripple play', fiber to the door supports, VOIP, > internet, and cable tv, and the water meter, and electric meter can be > hooked in for remote reading as well. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Wed Dec 29 08:40:29 2004 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTGeTgG019994 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id F416BD78C for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA16755; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAjc9ecTjA5+GSv4oxFTO/TV0S1kkCFCvOa3XbN1OKq4XL5K/vn/rKVEhE From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:40:23 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <5769-41D2DDF7-5704@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] good morning X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:40:29 -0000 good morning everyone ... even though it's cold, wet, and foggy up here on the mountain ... any day I wish my friends a good day .. is a GOOD DAY.. ~alan~ smiles even though it hurts at times ~ Hoss http://members.tripod.com/~sunysmile/atweetymorn.html From NoSpam03@comcast.net Wed Dec 29 09:04:13 2004 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTH4DTi025827 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004122916585901100gae7me>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:59:00 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041229144350.73961.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:04:13 -0000 Please Explain. -----Original Message----- "Humbly yours...and more than we will read from Steven"..........................................+rlo From rlo42@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 09:17:58 2004 Received: from web14223.mail.yahoo.com (web14223.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.171.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBTHHwRo029374 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 28244 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 17:11:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FDwNw1okQfVPTnIHED91M+tPnKWTUHexFeAnsGPLHp6EiP2Ev5CiyhARbyp3o7qdqD0dBWy73KdIlUeMSYHjtRVNYDuCzlJ4eDvZ4WOA0KHlJbE0x+dfl3Q85g507KGLUjD1o3rJuVCC64XHSiIgm4DjPCSFU0ZtdQj9Noh75MA= ; Message-ID: <20041229171115.28242.qmail@web14223.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.78.91.46] by web14223.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:11:15 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:17:59 -0000 I bet I caused a smile...... Steven wrote:Please Explain. -----Original Message----- "Humbly yours...and more than we will read from Steven"..........................................+rlo _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From ron@cobi.biz Wed Dec 29 09:59:03 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTHx2Hk041280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A6C29533 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:59:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:58:37 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000801c4edd0$0b9bd900$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20041229144350.73961.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBTHx2Hk041280 Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the newspaper? (WAS: reintroductions) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:59:03 -0000 Rlo wrote: ...while referred to in the only darn daily rag we can all get, The flipping Oregonian as Simpson Timber Company,... --------------------- With all due respect to certain local editors we all know who are the exception, it'd have been a lot funnier if Homer Simpson of TV fame had been a newspaper editor instead of a nuclear power plant operator. One way to understand how far off much of the news reporting really is, is to be directly involved in a story that gets reported. Example: For the past two years Cobi has been putting forth a big effort to see a new Post Office built in downtown Forest Grove. Ever since the USPS cut the funding for a new Forest Grove facility, especially after they built a new Cornelius post office, she has been writing letters to the USPS who keeps writing back that Forest Grove has no need for a new post office, and that they will fix the current congestion by painting a railing or remodeling this or that! So she kept bombarding them with facts and figures. It's consumed a lot of her time, but a while back it looked like she was finally getting some traction when the Oregonian called her for more information about the issue. They wanted to do a story on her efforts that might stir the USPS into action! So Cobi blocked out the time they requested to talk with their reporter. Cobi, wanting to get as much energy behind the story as possible, invited a friend here in town who also had expressed an interest in a new post office. He and Cobi both spoke with the reporter. When the story came out, it was the guy Cobi who had asked to join in who was supposedly "spearheading" the effort with a single letter requesting the USPS review the situation, not Cobi having flooded the USPS with questions and asking for reviews. And they even used a picture, not of Cobi, not even of the other guy she invited to the interview, but of a woman from Tillamook who happened to be driving through town and who decided to drop off a package here, standing at the counter in what looked like a virtually deserted post office lobby! Aaaaaaargh!!! The problem with the Oregonian is that their most accurate reporting is too often on the comic pages... Well, as Cobi observed, it's the results that count, not the credit. Still, if they had reported the actual story including some of the silly responses from the USPS she received, the results might be a lot better... I couldn't help but wonder if the reporter couldn't believe a "girl" could actually do something useful... Especially if a guy is involved... Just remember, they don't call them newspaper "stories" for no reason... Ron D'Eau Claire From NoSpam03@comcast.net Wed Dec 29 10:00:29 2004 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTI0SAc041766 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041229180022012003os18e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:00:22 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041229171115.28242.qmail@web14223.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:00:29 -0000 Yes, you did. I'd been contemplating identifying myself. I had spent some time writing up the introduction. You've made it clear that I need not bother. Thanks for the release. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of -rlo Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:11 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] I bet I caused a smile...... Steven wrote:Please Explain. -----Original Message----- "Humbly yours...and more than we will read from Steven"..........................................+rlo _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Wed Dec 29 10:16:14 2004 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTIGEeh048684 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 6C586D72E for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id KAA19405; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAlkzMxfDJRAYjfmT6O5ce9gAcXL8CFFVzWnc0W6bOWoozlxhSGKkrtzok From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:16:02 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] Message-ID: <7666-41D2F462-1162@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Steven" 's message of Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:00:22 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:16:14 -0000 Steven... speaking for only for myself ... I for one would like to read your introduction ... ~alan~ Steven wrote.. Yes, you did. I'd been contemplating identifying myself. I had spent some time writing up the introduction. You've made it clear that I need not bother. Thanks for the release. From fgchamber@groveweb.net Wed Dec 29 10:26:17 2004 Received: from mail.ipns.com (mail.ipns.com [208.187.227.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTIQHW7052049 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fgchamber@groveweb.net) Received: from frontoffice (dsl-228-92.ipns.com [209.210.228.92]) by mail.ipns.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id iBTIHNNw021078 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:17:29 -0800 From: "Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:19:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Subject: [Grovenet] Local Blood Drive X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:26:18 -0000 Due to the recent tsunamis in South Asia, the Red Cross is calling for more blood donations. We have 2 local opportunities to give blood: 1) This afternoon at the Forest Grove Senior Center. Call 503-357-2021 for more info 2) This Friday, 12/31, from noon to 4pm at CURVES. Call 503-359-5454 to sign up for a time slot. (Men are welcome!) -Robin Smith Administrative Assistant Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce tel: 503-357-3006 fax: 503-357-2367 email: fgchamber@groveweb.net website: www.fgchamber.org From Phoenixacm@aol.com Wed Dec 29 11:01:52 2004 Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTJ1pU4064536 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Phoenixacm@aol.com) Received: from Phoenixacm@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.d5.1e7a044d (25508) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:42 -0500 (EST) From: Phoenixacm@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:41 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:01:52 -0000 Hi, Vickie, As a matter of fact, I have a list (3 actually: 1 elementary, 1 middle school, and 1 high school) from last year of books on women in history, divided into the official Oregon social studies eras. It's quite long (158 for elementary, 78 each for MS and HS). If you email me your address, I will mail you a copy. It's mostly biographies with a few historical fiction books. I haven't updated it for this year yet and a few of the books on the list are out of print, but the majority are still available. If that is too much info for you, let me know what your needs are and I could send you a list of my favorites. Last year the schools that applied for grants were required to pull 100 bios off the shelf (starting at the letter G) and count how many were of males and how many of females. For the female biographies, they counted how many were of Europeans or European-Americans; Asians or Asian-Americans; Hispanics or Hispanic-Americans; Aboriginals, Native American Indians, or Alaska Natives; and Africans or African-Americans. Most of them found the exercise quite enlightening. Jane B-P > Hello Jane > > do you happen to have a list of recommended books for > young girls. Our school is Swallowtail and we are > pre-school age through 8th grade. > I would be interested in recommendations as once a > year we raise funds to expand our library. > > This re-introduction thing has been interesting as we > get to learn ( or remind ) us about fellow GroveNuts > > thanks for your input > > Vickie > From Phoenixacm@aol.com Wed Dec 29 11:10:40 2004 Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTJAd55067182 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Phoenixacm@aol.com) Received: from Phoenixacm@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.c0.1ecd68c7 (25508) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:05:17 -0500 (EST) From: Phoenixacm@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:05:17 EST Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:10:40 -0000 In a message dated 12/29/04 6:51:14 AM, rlo42@yahoo.com writes: > As such, there are certain things I do know...#1, I don't know if he ever > got the credit that was deserved but Mr. Browning was a key figure in any of > you who dial Portland. :) > > What does that mean? Jane B-P From Phoenixacm@aol.com Wed Dec 29 11:24:36 2004 Received: from imo-m26.mx.aol.com (imo-m26.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.7]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTJOaeT071312 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Phoenixacm@aol.com) Received: from Phoenixacm@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.102.57512069 (25508) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:24:28 -0500 (EST) From: Phoenixacm@aol.com Message-ID: <102.57512069.2f045e6c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:24:28 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:24:36 -0000 In a message dated 12/29/04 12:53:38 AM, dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com writes: > Is anyone else interested in approaching our city management about the=20 > idea? > =A0 School District?=A0 Light and Power?=A0 Cable customers?=A0 Pacitfic?= =A0 Internet > users? >=20 Well, Dick, I am interested, but I don't have a lot of time because of=20 running my acupuncture practice and my commitment to the Gender Equity Team.= If=20 you are recruiting a body of people to address the school district or any of= the=20 other groups, keep me posted. I might be able to break free for a "target=20 of opportunity" but otherwise I am pretty time-strapped. Jane B-P From MarianCakarnis@aol.com Wed Dec 29 11:39:53 2004 Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTJdqYP076626 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:39:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MarianCakarnis@aol.com) Received: from MarianCakarnis@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.67.3b338511 (26116) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:34:30 -0500 (EST) From: MarianCakarnis@aol.com Message-ID: <67.3b338511.2f0460c6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:34:30 EST To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5115 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Introduction X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:39:53 -0000 >From another lurker..... I, Marian, moved with my husband from Eugene in 1987 to the Portland area and hated it. Spent a couple of years in Beaverton...then Tigard and always wishing we could move back to Eugene or a more rural area.. With both of us in high-tech, the job market in Eugene has never been generous and we seemed destined to eek out a living in the midst of the suburban congestion. Then we found Forest Grove! We are the parents of a 6 yr. old, who is the center of our attention (the older parent/only child syndrome) and we are very content with our lives and happy to be living in such a great community. I will rarely respond to a post, and often don't have time to read all of the posts and keep up with the discussion. I am very opinionated and it is often best to keep my opinions to myself. Politics is very interesting to me, since I just became a citizen this past year and voted in my frist presidential election. Religion interests me although I prefer to live my life in a way that God would intend instead of spending time in an organized religion. Lurking on........ Marian From annahendricks@juno.com Wed Dec 29 11:46:55 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBTJkst9079443 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:46:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail13.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.153]) by smtpout04.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7GCN8AFWL862 for (sender ); Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:46:38 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOrP5ZMgHb4BvUugGU1EQHis5ncIiP6tCU+ Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail13.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KF2UVQN2; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:46:12 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail13.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:45:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:45:47 GMT To: beth@genly.us, grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0670255512==" Message-Id: <20041229.114612.599.93049@webmail13.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 13:6:2407461517 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:46:55 -0000 --===============0670255512== Content-Type: text/plain; charset = us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Oh! I LOVED the Emily of New Moon book. There are 2 (That I know of) that followed "New Moon"..though I can't remember the names now... Great reads! Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work Please note: message attached --===============0670255512== Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Vickie,

Since you posted this question to the list, I thought I'd tell you some of my favorites:

Emily of New Moon
Keep the Light Burning, Abby
Brave Irene (I remember the author on this one: William Steig. I pretty much like anything he wrote...)
Ozma of Oz -- I always liked this even better than The Wizard. I read all the Oz books, and liked all of them, but this was my personal favorite.
  (Does anybody remember the title of the  book where Ozma is disguised as a boy in service to a witch for most of the book? I loved that one, too.)
The Earthsea books, By Ursula Le Guin. The first one is A Wizard of Earthsea
The Enchanted Forest Chronicles, by Patricia Wrede, includes Talking to Dragons, and Calling on Dragons...
The Golden Porch

I'm sure more will occur to me as I think about it.

What a fun question!

Beth
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Vickie Madeoneup <whatsupy2k@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com> 


Hello Jane

do you happen to have a list of recommended books for
young girls. Our school is Swallowtail and we are
pre-school age through 8th grade.
I would be interested in recommendations as once a
year we raise funds to expand our library.

This re-introduction thing has been interesting as we
get to learn ( or remind ) us about fellow GroveNuts

thanks for your input

Vickie
--===============0670255512==-- ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From smith@easystreet.com Wed Dec 29 12:28:35 2004 Received: from relay3.mail2web.com (relay3.mail2web.com [168.144.1.83]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTKSYM6092560 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smith@easystreet.com) Received: from M2W089.mail2web.com ([168.144.251.201]) by relay3.mail2web.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:11:04 -0500 Message-ID: <164880-220041232920114930@M2W089.mail2web.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: 4.5.66.100 X-URL: http://mail2web.com/ From: "smith@easystreet.com" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:11:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Dec 2004 20:11:04.0886 (UTC) FILETIME=[868AED60:01C4EDE2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBTKSYM6092560 Subject: [Grovenet] Tsunami help X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: smith@easystreet.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:28:35 -0000 Carol Taylor, who works for me at Your Travel Place, has a friend who does relief work in Sri Lanka, and around the world. I will put the copy of the email and the forwarded email from his co-worker here for you to read. Here at the travel agency- we are happy to accept checks, which we will forward each day to Sarvodaya. The funds go directly to aid the people in Sri Lanka. Donations are tax deductible. I will re-introduce myself later. I have enjoyed reading everyone's bios! Here is the forwarded email- and you can call us with any questions at 503 359-7500. Thank you- Barb ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Greetings; My body is in the United States, although my heart is in Sri Lanka. The pictures of the devastation are heartbreaking. It's especially hard when I recognize an area from the news reports, and I KNOW that the area is not supposed to look like that. One of the things that happens in times of crisis is that there is an outpouring of compassion. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if this wave of compassion could be sustained? That the compassion remains, even after the Western media turns its attention to the next disaster? Many of you have asked how you can help with the relief efforts. What is needed right now is MONEY. Money for water and water purifiers, money for tents and food. Money to bury the dead and to care for the living. Sending a water purifier will do little… sending the money for the water purifier is most effective in both time and cost. The best way is to get money into the hands of those who are providing the best and most effective aid to those most impacted by the crisis. Giving it to governments is NOT recommended – they are not the best at delivering aid to those who need it. I would also be suspicious of organizations that spring up as a result of the crisis, organizations with no track record and no delivery system. I would like to recommend to you that you give money directly to Sarvodaya, the organization I have been working with for many years. As you may know, while the international donor organizations provide much-needed material assistance, they rely on organizations like Sarvodaya to actually distribute this aid to the people who need it. The list of organizations that rely on Sarvodaya’s thousands of volunteers reads like a who’s who of the development world. I have seen Sarvodaya workers distributing aid from UNICEF to poor villagers in a village that the Sri Lankan government didn’t even know existed. And, most importantly, Sarvodaya delivers assistance in Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim and Christian communities. Another reason to give directly to Sarvodaya: of all the countries hit by the quake and tsunami, Sri Lanka is the most impacted. Countries like India and Thailand have significant internal resources to draw upon. Sri Lanka has virtually none. Giving to Sarvodaya ensures that the money will go where it is most needed. So, how can you give to Sarvodaya? Instructions are in the email (below) from Rick Brooks, friend and Executive Director of Sarvodaya USA. How much should you send? Send more than you think you can afford. Peace, Sharif ____________________________________________________________________________ Sarvodaya News--Please Read This Immediately From: "Brooks, Richard" Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:24:12 -0600 THE TIDAL WAVE But the absolutely terrifying news of the earthquake and tidal wave keeps getting worse and worse. The idea of thousands of people drowning and hundreds of thousands--or millions--being affected is just too much to absorb. I have had emails from Tamil and Sinhala friends alike. International aid agencies are rushing to the rescue and Sarvodaya's reach will be more important than ever. The purpose of this email is to provide instructions on what we can do. But one of the most powerful messages of Sarvodaya is that we are all one family, so the sadness we feel extends far beyond the people whose names we know. We have been asked to help. Even thought international aid agencies and governments will surely contribute, our gift has to be more personal. In village after village, the rebuilding of lives offers opportunities to nurture the sense of community that Sarvodaya has always been about. What We Can Do Right Now 1. Send a check to: Sarvodaya USA, 5716 Manchester Avenue #3, Los Angeles, CA 90045. D.J. Mitchell, our accountant and a longtime friend of Sarvodaya, will wire funds to Sarvodaya every few days. Your contribution will be tax-deductible this year if it is postmarked before January 1. Otherwise, it will be tax-deductible in 2005. Either way, it is needed immediately. If you send a check, please let me know how much and we will make doubly sure it is acknowledged. 2. Tell people close to you that you have family and friends in Sri Lanka. That Sarvodaya is in a unique position to help immediately and in the future. And ask them if they would match your contribution. 3. Speak to your church, synagogue, service club or class. Talk to your colleagues; not just Sri Lankans and other Asians, but anyone who cares about human beings in need. Tell them you are helping and ask them to join you. Ask directly for contributions. 4. Volunteer. Our small Sarvodaya USA Board will need assistance. Please act today. Rick Richard S. Brooks Sarvodaya USA --Friends of Sarvodaya 2616 Mason Street Madison, WI 53705 USA ************************************************************************* Sharif Abdullah COMMONWAY INSTITUTE P.O. BOX 12541 Portland, OR 97212 (503) 281-1667 VISIT THE COMMONWAY WEBSITES: www.commonway.org www.commonsociety.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From NoSpam03@comcast.net Wed Dec 29 12:28:41 2004 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTKSe3H092599 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041229202834012003p0u1e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:28:35 +0000 From: "Steven" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:28:35 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <000801c4edd0$0b9bd900$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:28:41 -0000 I was told that the government would revisit the PO issue in september of 2004. I've heard nothing on that. Aparently, we have no say, it's federal monies deciding to build, buy, or lease. As far as I've heard, this process has no venue for local input until they decide again to move forward on the project. I would love to hear something further on this, corrections if I'm wrong or word as to how to move forward. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:59 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the newspaper? (WAS: reintroductions) For the past two years Cobi has been putting forth a big effort to see a new Post Office built in downtown Forest Grove. Ever since the USPS cut the funding for a new Forest Grove facility, especially after they built a new Cornelius post office, she has been writing letters to the USPS who keeps writing back that Forest Grove has no need for a new post office, and that they will fix the current congestion by painting a railing or remodeling this or that! So she kept bombarding them with facts and figures. It's consumed a lot of her time, but a while back it looked like she was finally getting some traction when the Oregonian called her for more information about the issue. They wanted to do a story on her efforts that might stir the USPS into action! So Cobi blocked out the time they requested to talk with their reporter. Cobi, wanting to get as much energy behind the story as possible, invited a friend here in town who also had expressed an interest in a new post office. He and Cobi both spoke with the reporter. When the story came out, it was the guy Cobi who had asked to join in who was supposedly "spearheading" the effort with a single letter requesting the USPS review the situation, not Cobi having flooded the USPS with questions and asking for reviews. And they even used a picture, not of Cobi, not even of the other guy she invited to the interview, but of a woman from Tillamook who happened to be driving through town and who decided to drop off a package here, standing at the counter in what looked like a virtually deserted post office lobby! Aaaaaaargh!!! From rlo42@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 12:31:06 2004 Received: from web14202.mail.yahoo.com (web14202.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.144]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBTKV6P7093469 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:31:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 90926 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 20:24:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hXfraO36eQOj3hHG0Hlwfv0WDHZJ3iX/u8F+Fsv8l9bg1MiQU6Y64ICw+Dww6zg9VH6QlK/u7sWyzP6HZVEhE8OsJMrqX41UVcPN/y4dfM+8GzmubE/cdlxpdoIXN3muGLspbElMYx4SrTQgmwg0As8D5sxbGqL3ZRQDH9CD580= ; Message-ID: <20041229202426.90924.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.78.91.46] by web14202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:24:26 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:24:26 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Grovenet] reintroductions] To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:31:06 -0000 "Back in the day"...say the late 70s/early 80s, Bob and some other local business people got together and "handled" the PUD into allowing those of us out here in the burbs to be able to call Portland without it being long distance. This thanks is for YOU Bob! :) +rlo Phoenixacm@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/29/04 6:51:14 AM, rlo42@yahoo.com writes: > As such, there are certain things I do know...#1, I don't know if he ever > got the credit that was deserved but Mr. Browning was a key figure in any of > you who dial Portland. :) > > What does that mean? Jane B-P _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From isis23ra@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 12:31:56 2004 Received: from web54508.mail.yahoo.com (web54508.mail.yahoo.com [68.142.225.178]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBTKVtHj093688 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isis23ra@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21745 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 20:25:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20041229202510.21743.qmail@web54508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.188.142] by web54508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:25:10 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alana Graham Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Grovenet introduction To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20041228.142201.17792.90286@webmail18.lax.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:31:56 -0000 It has been really fun to read folks' introductions. Thanks to Chris, Bud, and John for keeping us going here on GroveNet. I have lived in Forest Grove since 1989. Grew up in a wee town outside Buffalo, NY. College on Long Island and lived there 13 years. Ran away to the West coast in '82, got here via L.A. then Santa Cruz Ca (1 week before the earthquake of '89). I usually show up on Grovenet pushing an event or giving something away but other then that I lurk. 3 of my favorite periodicals are: The Nation, The Funny Times and The Hightower Review. I am a book-a-holic and therefore find myself on the board of the Friends of the Forest Grove Library where my special events are the booksales. An old time feminist (I was at Atlantic City protesting The Miss America Pageant back in 1971)I am still involved with human rights by being on the Steering Commitee for The West County Coaltion for Human Dignity and on the operating board for The Center for Women and Gender Equity at Pacific U. I am a precinct person for the county Democratic Party and while I was really a Kuchinich person, worked hard for Kerry this past year (besides Chuck Riley locally). As for re-ligion, I am a life long seeker who has settled on a Pagan-Druid Buddhist path - but my main spiritual concern is how people treat each other. I have read the Bible 2x and personally rejected all 3 Abrahamic religions, but I still think that the Golden Rule is one of the most important precepts for living from any spiritual tradition. "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you." I joined the West County Unitarian Church a year and ago and this is my first experience with organized religion since childhood. Part of my joy in that church is being part of a CUUPS group - Coevnant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. As the Christian Wrong has gotten stronger over the years so has my paranoia about prejudice gotten stronger and it is comforting to be part of a larger national organization. Upcoming events: January 15 at 10Am is the first meeting of the Great Decisions group at the UU Church. Look up Great Decisions online to find out more about the nation's longest lasting foreign affairs discussion group. Lots of hot topics to be discussed this year. All welcome. April 21st or there abouts: The Battle for Marriage - a townhall panel at Pacific U. comprised of various community groups discussing where the institution of marriage is heading. Sat. April 30 a medieval renaissance fair sponsored by Pacific U. and the Society for Creative Anachronism at the university. This will be a lot of fun! I have lots of strong opinions but believe that actions speak louder then words so you might not find me online here very often but you're likely to see me at a meeting of one cause or another. I really appreciate the knowledge and wisdom expressed here at Govenet and am grateful we have this tool to communicate. Thanks to all who participate. Whatever your opinions, beliefs or persuasions: Happy 2005! Alana Graham P.S. Saw 2 great movies this past week: On DVD "Angels in America" - 6 hours but worth it. "The Aviator" was 3 hours long but went very quickly and was also great! Also read a good novel along the lines of The Davinci Code but better written and certainly more plausible: The Romanov Prophecy by Steve Berry (you can get from library __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ron@cobi.biz Wed Dec 29 13:06:00 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTL5xKu008300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:06:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE141B013 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:05:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:05:31 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4edea$26e81290$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBTL5xKu008300 Subject: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:06:00 -0000 Cobi and I take a different view. We don't like being passive. If something needs fixing, we say so and do what we can to help. If you wait until the agency involved is ready for your input, you'll find that they have already made up their mind. At least that's my experience. The USPS - Postmaster General, your Congressman and your Senators are tasked to respond to your input. The current "official" USPS position is that there is no "need" for a better facility in Forest Grove. Of course that directly contradicts their earlier decision to build a new facility. They said that they would have done so but for an issue with the structure that stood on the property they planned to use at that time that delayed construction. Then, before they could get construction underway, a freeze on new expenditures was made. Now they try to say that there never was any need for a new facility. Let's see, one thing that changed the need was they re-striped the parking area to add a parking place, I believe. Why bother? A better post office helps locals so they can avoid long waits or driving their cars to Cornelius or Hillsboro. It also encourages hundreds of people each day to visit the downtown. And that's good for the downtown! So it's not just directly for postal patrons, but it's an indirect value for anyone who wants to see more and better shopping in Forest Grove. Our local postal people are a great bunch. I think they deserve an equally good place to work, and Forest Grove deserves the continued presence of an efficient, convenient post office. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:29 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Where's the Post Office I was told that the government would revisit the PO issue in september of 2004. I've heard nothing on that. Aparently, we have no say, it's federal monies deciding to build, buy, or lease. As far as I've heard, this process has no venue for local input until they decide again to move forward on the project. I would love to hear something further on this, corrections if I'm wrong or word as to how to move forward. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:59 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the newspaper? (WAS: reintroductions) For the past two years Cobi has been putting forth a big effort to see a new Post Office built in downtown Forest Grove. Ever since the USPS cut the funding for a new Forest Grove facility, especially after they built a new Cornelius post office, she has been writing letters to the USPS who keeps writing back that Forest Grove has no need for a new post office, and that they will fix the current congestion by painting a railing or remodeling this or that! So she kept bombarding them with facts and figures. It's consumed a lot of her time, but a while back it looked like she was finally getting some traction when the Oregonian called her for more information about the issue. They wanted to do a story on her efforts that might stir the USPS into action! So Cobi blocked out the time they requested to talk with their reporter. Cobi, wanting to get as much energy behind the story as possible, invited a friend here in town who also had expressed an interest in a new post office. He and Cobi both spoke with the reporter. When the story came out, it was the guy Cobi who had asked to join in who was supposedly "spearheading" the effort with a single letter requesting the USPS review the situation, not Cobi having flooded the USPS with questions and asking for reviews. And they even used a picture, not of Cobi, not even of the other guy she invited to the interview, but of a woman from Tillamook who happened to be driving through town and who decided to drop off a package here, standing at the counter in what looked like a virtually deserted post office lobby! Aaaaaaargh!!! From robert@vannattabros.com Wed Dec 29 13:50:31 2004 Received: from andromeda.email.starband.net (andromeda.email.starband.net [148.78.247.124]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTLoUhP029748 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by andromeda.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBTLocKE010928; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:50:54 -0500 Message-ID: <0b7801c4edf0$cebad060$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000201c4edea$26e81290$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:52:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:50:31 -0000 Oh the conflict. --- On onehand a nice ornate PO makes a traditional community center---or at least an element of it. On the otherhand the PO is suppose to be cost effective. to do that they need to look more like UPS with trucks fanning out form a nameless warehouse near the airport./and or I-5, and stuffing mail whole sale into street corner postal Kiosks containing a bunch of boxes. PO give communities a sense of identity, and can make an imporatnt anchor to a community hub, but it all comes at a cost. That cost continually threatens the financial integrity of the PO system. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office > Cobi and I take a different view. We don't like being passive. If something > needs fixing, we say so and do what we can to help. If you wait until the > agency involved is ready for your input, you'll find that they have already > made up their mind. At least that's my experience. The USPS - Postmaster > General, your Congressman and your Senators are tasked to respond to your > input. > > The current "official" USPS position is that there is no "need" for a better > facility in Forest Grove. > > Of course that directly contradicts their earlier decision to build a new > facility. They said that they would have done so but for an issue with the > structure that stood on the property they planned to use at that time that > delayed construction. Then, before they could get construction underway, a > freeze on new expenditures was made. > > Now they try to say that there never was any need for a new facility. Let's > see, one thing that changed the need was they re-striped the parking area to > add a parking place, I believe. > > Why bother? A better post office helps locals so they can avoid long waits > or driving their cars to Cornelius or Hillsboro. It also encourages hundreds > of people each day to visit the downtown. And that's good for the downtown! > So it's not just directly for postal patrons, but it's an indirect value for > anyone who wants to see more and better shopping in Forest Grove. > > Our local postal people are a great bunch. I think they deserve an equally > good place to work, and Forest Grove deserves the continued presence of an > efficient, convenient post office. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03@comcast.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:29 PM > To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Where's the Post Office > > > I was told that the government would revisit the PO issue in september of > 2004. I've heard nothing on that. Aparently, we have no say, it's federal > monies deciding to build, buy, or lease. As far as I've heard, this process > has no venue for local input until they decide again to move forward on the > project. I would love to hear something further on this, corrections if I'm > wrong or word as to how to move forward. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:59 AM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the newspaper? (WAS: reintroductions) > > For the past two years Cobi has been putting forth a big effort to see a new > Post Office built in downtown Forest Grove. Ever since the USPS cut the > funding for a new Forest Grove facility, especially after they built a new > Cornelius post office, she has been writing letters to the USPS who keeps > writing back that Forest Grove has no need for a new post office, and that > they will fix the current congestion by painting a railing or remodeling > this or that! So she kept bombarding them with facts and figures. > > It's consumed a lot of her time, but a while back it looked like she was > finally getting some traction when the Oregonian called her for more > information about the issue. They wanted to do a story on her efforts that > might stir the USPS into action! > > So Cobi blocked out the time they requested to talk with their reporter. > Cobi, wanting to get as much energy behind the story as possible, invited a > friend here in town who also had expressed an interest in a new post office. > He and Cobi both spoke with the reporter. > > When the story came out, it was the guy Cobi who had asked to join in who > was supposedly "spearheading" the effort with a single letter requesting the > USPS review the situation, not Cobi having flooded the USPS with questions > and asking for reviews. And they even used a picture, not of Cobi, not even > of the other guy she invited to the interview, but of a woman from Tillamook > who happened to be driving through town and who decided to drop off a > package here, standing at the counter in what looked like a virtually > deserted post office lobby! > > Aaaaaaargh!!! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Wed Dec 29 14:11:56 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTMBtoN035616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A22DB005 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:11:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:11:28 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4edf3$5d130560$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <0b7801c4edf0$cebad060$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBTMBtoN035616 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:11:56 -0000 I've never heard anyone ask for a "nice ornate" post office, just an efficient one big enough to serve the town with adequate access for both the Postal vehicles and the public. The sort of Post Office the USPS said was needed three years ago. The plan was to put the new one on Main between Pacific and 19th - very convenient for the USPS trucks coming and going every day from the main center as well as for the postal carriers. Also customers coming to the P.O. by car would have much better parking, and it's close to downtown and the city offices, etc. All in all, it should be a good win-win for everybody. Right now the big postal trucks have to navigate the small side streets and narrow alleys to get to the post office. The last I heard about the alternative plan to avoid building a new facility is that the USPS may rent a separate space for the local mail sorting and package handling, so we'd have the old office to buy stamps and deliver packages, unless you had a package to pick up then you'd either go somewhere else or they'd have to have someone courier it over to the public desk. And they'd have to staff both facilities. To me that sounds a lot like "save a buck today to spend an extra 100 over the next year." Frankly, I suspect it's just another prevarication by some USPS functionary trying to sound like the problem is being 'worked' . Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Robert VanNatta [mailto:robert@vannattabros.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:53 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Oh the conflict. --- On onehand a nice ornate PO makes a traditional community center---or at least an element of it. On the otherhand the PO is suppose to be cost effective. to do that they need to look more like UPS with trucks fanning out form a nameless warehouse near the airport./and or I-5, and stuffing mail whole sale into street corner postal Kiosks containing a bunch of boxes. PO give communities a sense of identity, and can make an imporatnt anchor to a community hub, but it all comes at a cost. That cost continually threatens the financial integrity of the PO system. From doc@imakeyoursmile.com Wed Dec 29 14:19:20 2004 Received: from oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net (oe-iw1pub.managedmail.com [206.46.164.32]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTMJJkq037756 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doc@imakeyoursmile.com) Received: from doc ([4.8.167.20]) by oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20041229220251.XTGD15592.oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net@doc> for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:02:51 -0600 From: "Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S." To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:02:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: doc@imakeyoursmile.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:19:20 -0000 A postal worker I know said things were progressing towards a new PO for Forest Grove. There was a lot of imput from the city who wanted a brick building and other specific design factors in the design. The PO essentially said "nuts" and went ahead and built new buildings in our neighboring towns where what they were doing was better appreciated. Tom Alexander -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Steven Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:29 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office I was told that the government would revisit the PO issue in september of 2004. I've heard nothing on that. Aparently, we have no say, it's federal monies deciding to build, buy, or lease. As far as I've heard, this process has no venue for local input until they decide again to move forward on the project. I would love to hear something further on this, corrections if I'm wrong or word as to how to move forward. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:59 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Where's the newspaper? (WAS: reintroductions) For the past two years Cobi has been putting forth a big effort to see a new Post Office built in downtown Forest Grove. Ever since the USPS cut the funding for a new Forest Grove facility, especially after they built a new Cornelius post office, she has been writing letters to the USPS who keeps writing back that Forest Grove has no need for a new post office, and that they will fix the current congestion by painting a railing or remodeling this or that! So she kept bombarding them with facts and figures. It's consumed a lot of her time, but a while back it looked like she was finally getting some traction when the Oregonian called her for more information about the issue. They wanted to do a story on her efforts that might stir the USPS into action! So Cobi blocked out the time they requested to talk with their reporter. Cobi, wanting to get as much energy behind the story as possible, invited a friend here in town who also had expressed an interest in a new post office. He and Cobi both spoke with the reporter. When the story came out, it was the guy Cobi who had asked to join in who was supposedly "spearheading" the effort with a single letter requesting the USPS review the situation, not Cobi having flooded the USPS with questions and asking for reviews. And they even used a picture, not of Cobi, not even of the other guy she invited to the interview, but of a woman from Tillamook who happened to be driving through town and who decided to drop off a package here, standing at the counter in what looked like a virtually deserted post office lobby! Aaaaaaargh!!! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Wed Dec 29 14:30:34 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTMUXob041078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:30:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225DD29522; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:30:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: , "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:30:05 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000301c4edf5$f74aa050$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBTMUXob041078 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:30:34 -0000 That sounds partially right, Tom. However the plans were always to build new post offices here, in Cornelius and in Gaston. I believe that the delay here was actually that the building on the site they wanted was at both condemned and listed "historic" structure. It took time to get the approvals to demolish it and by then the post office building freeze was on. I'm always suspicious of people who carry on about how the city throws up roadblocks. I deal with the planning department regularly. I've dealt with such operations in a number of small towns. The department in Forest Grove has been among the most helpful and accommodating I've seen. But there are always some people who are sure all problems are the work of city bureaucrats. I'm not saying the city is all 'reasonableness'. Like all bureaucracies they have to follow the rule book, no matter how silly or complex. The issues that come up over a new project aren't thrown up at the last minute. They are there and usually quite well defined for anyone who wants to plan in advance. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S. Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:03 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office A postal worker I know said things were progressing towards a new PO for Forest Grove. There was a lot of imput from the city who wanted a brick building and other specific design factors in the design. The PO essentially said "nuts" and went ahead and built new buildings in our neighboring towns where what they were doing was better appreciated. Tom Alexander From rab@jurislex.com Wed Dec 29 14:56:48 2004 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTMulGU048456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:56:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CE16DC00C; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41D3362B.70008@jurislex.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:56:43 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office References: <000001c4edf3$5d130560$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000001c4edf3$5d130560$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:56:48 -0000 Actually, Ron, I was told that they were going to move all the route delivery people - in city and out - to the postal facility in Hillsboro, which I think would be just scum, because we would lose the ability to mail a local letter as late as 7:00 am and have it delivered the same day, the last post office in the metro area where one can do that!! bob "always running late" browning PS: With respect to the "nice ornate" post office, it was my understanding that is exactly what killed the post office approval, city demands that ran the budget up from a bit over $ 1 million to almost $2 million, which the post office would not swallow. I have also heard from Portland that they may be interested in converting the 2 story concrete "blockhouse" at the southwest corner of 19th and Ash!! b Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >I've never heard anyone ask for a "nice ornate" post office, just an >efficient one big enough to serve the town with adequate access for both the >Postal vehicles and the public. The sort of Post Office the USPS said was >needed three years ago. > >The plan was to put the new one on Main between Pacific and 19th - very >convenient for the USPS trucks coming and going every day from the main >center as well as for the postal carriers. Also customers coming to the P.O. >by car would have much better parking, and it's close to downtown and the >city offices, etc. All in all, it should be a good win-win for everybody. >Right now the big postal trucks have to navigate the small side streets and >narrow alleys to get to the post office. > >The last I heard about the alternative plan to avoid building a new facility >is that the USPS may rent a separate space for the local mail sorting and >package handling, so we'd have the old office to buy stamps and deliver >packages, unless you had a package to pick up then you'd either go somewhere >else or they'd have to have someone courier it over to the public desk. And >they'd have to staff both facilities. > >To me that sounds a lot like "save a buck today to spend an extra 100 over >the next year." > >Frankly, I suspect it's just another prevarication by some USPS functionary >trying to sound like the problem is being 'worked' . > >Ron D'Eau Claire > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert VanNatta [mailto:robert@vannattabros.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:53 PM >To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list >Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office > > >Oh the conflict. --- On onehand a nice ornate PO makes a traditional >community center---or at least an element of it. > >On the otherhand the PO is suppose to be cost effective. to do that they >need to look more like UPS with trucks fanning out form a nameless warehouse >near the airport./and or I-5, and stuffing mail whole sale into street >corner postal Kiosks containing a bunch of boxes. > >PO give communities a sense of identity, and can make an imporatnt anchor to >a community hub, but it all comes at a cost. That cost continually >threatens the financial integrity of the PO system. > > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From rab@jurislex.com Wed Dec 29 15:00:53 2004 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTN0rlm049632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0746DC017; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:00:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41D33721.60206@jurislex.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:00:49 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office References: <000301c4edf5$f74aa050$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000301c4edf5$f74aa050$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:00:53 -0000 Ron - I have about 7 - 8 clients that would like to know what your secret is. I would be happy to have several of them talk to you so you can get a little feel about what the other side looks like!! bob "making too much money because of the city" browning Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >That sounds partially right, Tom. However the plans were always to build new >post offices here, in Cornelius and in Gaston. I believe that the delay here >was actually that the building on the site they wanted was at both condemned >and listed "historic" structure. It took time to get the approvals to >demolish it and by then the post office building freeze was on. > >I'm always suspicious of people who carry on about how the city throws up >roadblocks. I deal with the planning department regularly. I've dealt with >such operations in a number of small towns. The department in Forest Grove >has been among the most helpful and accommodating I've seen. But there are >always some people who are sure all problems are the work of city >bureaucrats. > >I'm not saying the city is all 'reasonableness'. Like all bureaucracies they >have to follow the rule book, no matter how silly or complex. The issues >that come up over a new project aren't thrown up at the last minute. They >are there and usually quite well defined for anyone who wants to plan in >advance. > >Ron D'Eau Claire > >-----Original Message----- >From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On >Behalf Of Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S. >Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:03 PM >To: Forest Grove local interests list >Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office > > >A postal worker I know said things were progressing towards a new PO for >Forest Grove. There was a lot of imput from the city who wanted a brick >building and other specific design factors in the design. The PO essentially >said "nuts" and went ahead and built new buildings in our neighboring towns >where what they were doing was better appreciated. > >Tom Alexander > > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From tom@efnursery.com Wed Dec 29 15:19:19 2004 Received: from gallentry (207-170-243-207.gen.twtelecom.net [207.170.243.207]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTNJIm7055149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@efnursery.com) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([4.30.2.172]) by gallentry (8.12.6/8.12.6/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id iBTN63gm004811 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:06:03 -0800 Message-ID: <41D33863.7080702@efnursery.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:06:11 -0800 From: Tom Epler User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Re:reintroductions X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:19:19 -0000 To all Grovenetters: I hope that your holiday was bright and that next year will be kind to you all. I do not live in Forest Grove, however, I border a lot of the south side of town. I own a shade tree nursery out on B St. One of the advantages of being where we are is that the urban growth boundary is my property line and I will fight to have it stay there. I am mostly a lurker, I love to listen to the debates going on in the city while sitting back in the country. I love it out here. I am a third generation farmer and former dairy person {I could not stand getting up at three in the morning to be close to the cows} I never thought that I would own any more animals until I had a family. Now we raise buffalo. We have our small herd on Hwy 47 and a larger herd in Eastern Oregon. We process at our plant in Nampa Idaho and ship the meat to provide for markets in Portland. We also have a gift shop on the ranch {shameless plug}. I am involved in the Community Forestry Commision for the city, and would love to see more trees in town. You may see me in town either wearing a suit and tie or a pair of faded levi's, dirty boots, and a tee shirt that has a saying on it that you would not wear to church. { I promise I won't, Eric} I enjoy listening to Grovenet and am glad that we do have a lot of different opinions in town, for how will we learn and grow if all we have is one side to hear. You all take care, Tom From Eewhisler@cs.com Wed Dec 29 15:36:27 2004 Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTNaQ3f064181 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Eewhisler@cs.com) Received: from Eewhisler@cs.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.d8.1c8d0478 (4362) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:31:07 -0500 (EST) From: Eewhisler@cs.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:31:07 EST To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] subscribe? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:36:28 -0000 My husband would like to subscribe, so how do you do that now? I went to gorvenet@rdrop.com and got their home page, but nothing about grovenet. Ellaine From edavie@oregonmta.org Wed Dec 29 15:55:34 2004 Received: from mails12.megamailservers.com (mails12.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBTNtYom071123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:55:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (69-30-9-86.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.9.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails12.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBTNtHjk025015 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:55:27 -0500 Message-ID: <00a601c4ee01$dded2220$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] subscribe? Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:55:18 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:55:35 -0000 Click on the bottom blue line! Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eewhisler@cs.com=20 To: grovenet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: [Grovenet] subscribe? My husband would like to subscribe, so how do you do that now? I went = to=20 gorvenet@rdrop.com and got their home page, but nothing about = grovenet. Ellaine _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Wed Dec 29 16:57:53 2004 Received: from cepheus.email.starband.net (cepheus.email.starband.net [148.78.247.123]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBU0vpYW089449 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by cepheus.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBU0xPg4014056 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:59:32 -0500 Message-ID: <0da401c4ee0a$e3ef2200$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000001c4edf3$5d130560$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> <41D3362B.70008@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:59:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:57:54 -0000 you certainly don't see 'same day delivery' or anything close to it over this way. The mail truck starts in Astoria and sweeps up US 30 toward portland in the afternoon. The red white and blue boxes including the drivebys at the PO in St. Helens are dumped at 5 p.m. and the truck gets the stuff shortly thereafter. They still have a box for 'local mail' and one for 'out of town mail', but the pickup folks put both in the same bag, and it all goes to portland. and gets hauled back from portland presumably the next day. there is no such thing as a local postmark either. Post offices are like 1 room school houses. ---- get rid of all of them except mine. Mine is very important. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office > Actually, Ron, I was told that they were going to move all the route > delivery people - in city and out - to the postal facility in Hillsboro, > which I think would be just scum, because we would lose the ability to > mail a local letter as late as 7:00 am and have it delivered the same > day, the last post office in the metro area where one can do that!! > > bob "always running late" browning > > PS: With respect to the "nice ornate" post office, it was my > understanding that is exactly what killed the post office approval, city > demands that ran the budget up from a bit over $ 1 million to almost $2 > million, which the post office would not swallow. I have also heard from > Portland that they may be interested in converting the 2 story concrete > "blockhouse" at the southwest corner of 19th and Ash!! > > b > > Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > > >I've never heard anyone ask for a "nice ornate" post office, just an > >efficient one big enough to serve the town with adequate access for both the > >Postal vehicles and the public. The sort of Post Office the USPS said was > >needed three years ago. > > > >The plan was to put the new one on Main between Pacific and 19th - very > >convenient for the USPS trucks coming and going every day from the main > >center as well as for the postal carriers. Also customers coming to the P.O. > >by car would have much better parking, and it's close to downtown and the > >city offices, etc. All in all, it should be a good win-win for everybody. > >Right now the big postal trucks have to navigate the small side streets and > >narrow alleys to get to the post office. > > > >The last I heard about the alternative plan to avoid building a new facility > >is that the USPS may rent a separate space for the local mail sorting and > >package handling, so we'd have the old office to buy stamps and deliver > >packages, unless you had a package to pick up then you'd either go somewhere > >else or they'd have to have someone courier it over to the public desk. And > >they'd have to staff both facilities. > > > >To me that sounds a lot like "save a buck today to spend an extra 100 over > >the next year." > > > >Frankly, I suspect it's just another prevarication by some USPS functionary > >trying to sound like the problem is being 'worked' . > > > >Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Robert VanNatta [mailto:robert@vannattabros.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:53 PM > >To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list > >Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office > > > > > >Oh the conflict. --- On onehand a nice ornate PO makes a traditional > >community center---or at least an element of it. > > > >On the otherhand the PO is suppose to be cost effective. to do that they > >need to look more like UPS with trucks fanning out form a nameless warehouse > >near the airport./and or I-5, and stuffing mail whole sale into street > >corner postal Kiosks containing a bunch of boxes. > > > >PO give communities a sense of identity, and can make an imporatnt anchor to > >a community hub, but it all comes at a cost. That cost continually > >threatens the financial integrity of the PO system. > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >GroveNet mailing list > >GroveNet@rdrop.com > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Wed Dec 29 19:26:19 2004 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBU3QIqd022626 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:26:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041230032617.LJQF28025.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:26:17 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tsunami help Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:25:33 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <164880-220041232920114930@M2W089.mail2web.com> In-Reply-To: <164880-220041232920114930@M2W089.mail2web.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: <200412291925.33459.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:26:16 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBU3QIqd022626 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:26:20 -0000 Thank you for posting this, Barb. I was going to do the same, but this is much more complete information than what I had. On Wednesday 29 December 2004 12:11, smith@easystreet.com wrote: > Carol Taylor, who works for me at Your Travel Place, has a friend who does > relief work in Sri Lanka, and around the world. > I will put the copy of the email and the forwarded email from his co-worker > here for you to read. > Here at the travel agency- we are happy to accept checks, which we will > forward each day to Sarvodaya. The funds go directly to aid the people in > Sri Lanka. Donations are tax deductible. > I will re-introduce myself later. I have enjoyed reading everyone's bios! > Here is the forwarded email- and you can call us with any questions at 503 > 359-7500. Thank you- Barb > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >+ Greetings; > > My body is in the United States, although my heart is in Sri Lanka. The > pictures of the devastation are heartbreaking. It's especially hard when I > recognize an area from the news reports, and I KNOW that the area is not > supposed to look like that. > > One of the things that happens in times of crisis is that there is an > outpouring of compassion. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if this wave of > compassion could be sustained? That the compassion remains, even after the > Western media turns its attention to the next disaster? > > Many of you have asked how you can help with the relief efforts. What is > needed right now is MONEY. Money for water and water purifiers, money for > tents and food. Money to bury the dead and to care for the living. > Sending a water purifier will do little… sending the money for the water > purifier is most effective in both time and cost. > > The best way is to get money into the hands of those who are providing the > best and most effective aid to those most impacted by the crisis. Giving > it to governments is NOT recommended – they are not the best at delivering > aid to those who need it. I would also be suspicious of organizations that > spring up as a result of the crisis, organizations with no track record and > no delivery system. > > I would like to recommend to you that you give money directly to Sarvodaya, > the organization I have been working with for many years. As you may know, > while the international donor organizations provide much-needed material > assistance, they rely on organizations like Sarvodaya to actually > distribute this aid to the people who need it. The list of organizations > that rely on Sarvodaya’s thousands of volunteers reads like a who’s who of > the development world. I have seen Sarvodaya workers distributing aid from > UNICEF to poor villagers in a village that the Sri Lankan government didn’t > even know existed. And, most importantly, Sarvodaya delivers assistance in > Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim and Christian communities. > > Another reason to give directly to Sarvodaya: of all the countries hit by > the quake and tsunami, Sri Lanka is the most impacted. Countries like > India and Thailand have significant internal resources to draw upon. Sri > Lanka has virtually none. Giving to Sarvodaya ensures that the money will > go where it is most needed. > > So, how can you give to Sarvodaya? Instructions are in the email (below) > from Rick Brooks, friend and Executive Director of Sarvodaya USA. > > How much should you send? Send more than you think you can afford. > > Peace, > > Sharif > ___________________________________________________________________________ >_ Sarvodaya News--Please Read This Immediately > > From: > > "Brooks, Richard" > > Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:24:12 -0600 > > THE TIDAL WAVE > But the absolutely terrifying news of the earthquake and tidal wave keeps > getting worse and worse. The idea of thousands of people drowning and > hundreds of thousands--or millions--being affected is just too much to > absorb. I have had emails from Tamil and Sinhala friends alike. > International aid agencies are rushing to the rescue and Sarvodaya's reach > will be more important than ever. > > > The purpose of this email is to provide instructions on what we can do. > > But one of the most powerful messages of Sarvodaya is that we are all one > family, so the sadness we feel extends far beyond the people whose names we > know. We have been asked to help. Even thought international aid agencies > and governments will surely contribute, our gift has to be more personal. > In village after village, the rebuilding of lives offers opportunities to > nurture the sense of community that Sarvodaya has always been about. > > What We Can Do Right Now > 1. Send a check to: Sarvodaya USA, 5716 Manchester Avenue #3, Los Angeles, > CA 90045. D.J. Mitchell, our accountant and a longtime friend of > Sarvodaya, will wire funds to Sarvodaya every few days. Your contribution > will be tax-deductible this year if it is postmarked before January 1. > Otherwise, it will be tax-deductible in 2005. Either way, it is needed > immediately. If you send a check, please let me know how much and we will > make doubly sure it is acknowledged. > > 2. Tell people close to you that you have family and friends in Sri Lanka. > That Sarvodaya is in a unique position to help immediately and in the > future. And ask them if they would match your contribution. > > 3. Speak to your church, synagogue, service club or class. Talk to your > colleagues; not just Sri Lankans and other Asians, but anyone who cares > about human beings in need. Tell them you are helping and ask them to join > you. Ask directly for contributions. > > 4. Volunteer. Our small Sarvodaya USA Board will need assistance. > > Please act today. > > Rick > > Richard S. Brooks > Sarvodaya USA --Friends of Sarvodaya > 2616 Mason Street > Madison, WI 53705 USA > > ************************************************************************* > Sharif Abdullah > COMMONWAY INSTITUTE > P.O. BOX 12541 > Portland, OR 97212 > (503) 281-1667 > > VISIT THE COMMONWAY WEBSITES: > > www.commonway.org > > > www.commonsociety.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From ron@cobi.biz Wed Dec 29 19:57:17 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBU3vEOs029198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD69EB005 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:56:45 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000a01c4ee23$9a056f50$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <41D33721.60206@jurislex.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBU3vEOs029198 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:57:18 -0000 Bob wrote: I have about 7 - 8 clients that would like to know what your secret is. I would be happy to have several of them talk to you so you can get a little feel about what the other side looks like!! ---------------------------------------------------- Bob, your client's experience is different because you're a real estate attorney and Cobi and I are real estate brokers. We apply the existing rules to help our clients. We know what questions to ask and where to go to get things done according to the rules. We often do a lot of the footwork for them as well. When a client wants to challenge the rules or "interpret" them in a new way, we refer them to you. Ron D'Eau Claire From smith@easystreet.com Wed Dec 29 20:12:21 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBU4CI9B032455 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smith@easystreet.com) Received: from hpp5450 (69-30-98-104.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.104]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5642B013 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:50:13 -0800 (PST) From: "smith" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:48:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200412291925.33459.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Subject: [Grovenet] Tsunami aid and basic math skills. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:12:22 -0000 Here is an updated link to the website that can now take donations via credit card. I already mailed mine today. http://www.sarvodaya.org/ Now, math is not my strong point by any means, but it occurred to me today to just see what the cost of the war in Iraq is per day. The best number I could find, is that it cost 7.4 million per day. Today the news stories said that President Bush offered up $35 million in aid to the tsunami victims. Ok, I will admit I had to get the calculator to determine that the aid offered is equal to about 4.72 days of the cost of the war. If I had a choice, I know where I would prefer my money spent. Barb (re-introduction still pending...) Smith From canonmetals@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 20:35:49 2004 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBU4ZkrR037662 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 53296 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 04:35:36 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LyfQqlDbAaghp3M+JF1aZ2iB1vsaaGhFpYO5SG592mGc0NsJbWebEdWGHB9S73LZ9+pBRjsbOCtI2aLSeICfH0msGK2cpDbDGypj/8yIMVGndrRPCp0hlwytke3n7VhY6rMX52qtjOlKczgS+t5RDVbaCcblFn5IYh92H+GlffQ= ; Message-ID: <20041230043536.53294.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:35:36 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:35:36 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re:reintroductions To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41D33863.7080702@efnursery.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:35:49 -0000 As you know Tom, the last time our church expelled a member was about 1905, a hundred years ago. We take everybody, no matter where they come from or where they've been. In your case, with those buffalo and all, I do appreciate your promise though! (big grin) By the way, I need to tell a story on Tom and his family. We sent Tom and Laurie a Christmas letter about five years ago, and with it a picture of Jeane and me standing arm in arm in front of our newly built house. In the foreground just behind us was the remains of a walnut tree that blew over in a wind storm. Most of the tree went to friends who cut it up and took the beautiful walnut wood for lathe projects and such. The stump remained, and it was still firmly in the ground held by big roots. Tom and Laurie read the Christmas letter, saw the picture, saw Jeane and me, saw the house, and they saw this stump. There was no mention of the stump in the letter. It didn't occur to us anyone would even notice the stump in the picture. First thing we knew, Tom was off loading his backhoe in our back yard, and, with the help of his hard working boys, he began to work on that stump. It was a back and forth battle, but as time went by, that stump began to loosen up, and eventually, out it came. He then loaded it into his truck and we never saw the stump again. Such is the kindness in this man's heart. Jeane and I were so touched, first that he'd go to all that trouble, but also that he'd see the stump in the first place in our picture and draw conclusions. We were just amazed, and very grateful. Tom and Laurie are two of many really fine people in our community. --- Tom Epler wrote: You may see me > in town either wearing a > suit and tie or a pair of faded levi's, dirty > boots, and a tee shirt > that has a saying on it that you would not wear > to church. { I promise I > won't, Eric} > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 20:47:01 2004 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBU4ku14039770 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 55514 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 04:46:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xdPttJe0w3GYV0eV4deEBpZzc30Yvd/+qJ4RwtHNurd9atVGumnoxvQzjJs0YjhtzsB6y9BGDpZP4jGt+CkhkkjKQkjWUgJBH6A6flJTzmUFdx83oyEH2FclidygiZ+srv/Nj5++MWDGZog4/iTILZ2bfVKTuweVRrJwa5MRRno= ; Message-ID: <20041230044651.55512.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:46:51 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:46:51 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] An appropriate response to hate. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:47:02 -0000 I just received this from another list I get. For your information: December 13, 2004 Dear Community Members: I am sorry to tell you that an organized hate group from the Portland metro area plans to distribute racist flyers in several neighborhoods in Southwest Portland on January 8th, 2005. They plan to meet at a park, and then they will branch out into the surrounding neighborhoods, passing out flyers that denigrate many minority groups. This hate group's activity gives us a wonderful opportunity to reaffirm our shared values and show that hate is not welcome here. I hope that you will join us in our efforts to demonstrate that our community honors the dignity and worth of all people, regardless of the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, or their gender! How is the community responding? Multiple community organizations are sponsoring a big Unity Rally on Saturday, January 8th, 2005, at 1:00pm. There will be speakers (including community and goverment leaders), music, a kids' activity room, and a display of signs & banners promoting justice and understanding. In addition, about a week before the Unity Rally, the Portland City Council will be considering a resolution titled, "Promote justice and denounce hate in the City of Portland." Where is the Unity Rally? The Unity Rally will take place at the Multnomah Center, 7688 SW Capitol Hwy. The Multnomah Center is on bus lines #44 PPC Sylvania and #45 Garden Home. By car, take the Multnomah Blvd exit off of I-5 South, turn right on 34th, turn right on Capitol Hwy. For directions from other starting points, go to www.mapquest.com. Why not confront the hate group directly? Concerned community members are asked not to seek out and confront the hate group as they distribute their flyers. To do so would give them attention and publicity they do not deserve. The Unity Rally is a safer, more powerful, and more positive statement than a shouting match with members of the hate group. Unity, not hate, will be the story of the day on January 8th. How can I get involved? Join us at the Unity Rally-- we want to make a big statement about what this community stands for! Bring with you a sign, banner, or button showing how you feel about tolerance and understanding. Display the attached window poster in your front window. We hope every house in Southwest Portland and beyond will display the poster. When the hate group is distributing their flyers, they will see the signs and know they are not supported in their views. Print off extra copies of the poster and share them with your friend and neighbors. Within the next few days, the PDF of the poster will be available for downloading at www.swni.org and at www.portlandonline.com/oni. Help spread the word. Forward this email and the attachments to anyone you think might be interested. For your friends and neighbors who don't have email, print out the message and attachments. Talk to your kids about the importance of accepting and celebrating our differences. See www.tolerance.org, a website of the Southern Poverty Law Center, for some ideas on how to start the conversation. I am a Southwest resident. What should I do if I receive the hate flyers or have contact with the members of the hate group? The Portland Police are well aware of the hate group's plans for the day and will be monitoring the situation to keep the neighborhoods safe. If you see the hate group distributing their flyers, avoid contact if possible. If you cannot avoid contact, avoid confrontation, no matter how upset you are about what they are doing. Try to keep any interaction neutral and low-key. Disengage from the conversation. If you feel you are in immediate danger, call 9-1-1. If the flyer you receive contains any direct threats of violence against you personally, save it and call the police non-emergency number, 503-823-3333. Before you call, talk to your neighbors to establish if the flyer really was aimed at you personally. Did your neighbors receive the same exact flyer? If the flyer you receive contains any general threats of violence, save it and call Stephanie Reynolds at 503-823-3131, or Officer Scott Westerman at 503-823-0235. They will collect the information and turn it over to the appropriate units at the Police Bureau. Otherwise, there is no need to contact the police. The hate group has indicated that they would like to generate many calls to the police. For this reason, only contact the police if laws are being broken or someone's life or health is in danger. You can destroy the hate flyer by shredding it and recycling the pieces, or by burning it in your fireplace. Contact Stephanie Reynolds, Crime Prevention Program Coordinator for Southwest Portland, at sreynolds@ci.portland.or.us if you have any questions. I am a member of the media. Who is the press contact for the Unity Rally? Emily Gottfried of the Portland Chapter of the American Jewish Committee, 503-295-6761 My organization wants to officially endorse this event. Who is collecting a list of endorsements for the Unity Rally? Sylvia Bogert of Southwest Neighborhoods Inc, sbogert@spiritone.com Already endorsing the Unity Rally are: City of Portland Office of Neighborhood Involvement, American Jewish Committee, Southwest Neighborhoods, Inc., Coalition Against Hate Crimes, Jewish Federation of Portland, Congregation Kol Shalom, Neighborhood House, Inc., and the Portland Chapter of Hadassah I want to add my support to the City Council resolution, testify before City Council about the resolution, or simply attend that session. How do I find out when that session of City Council will take place? Contact Sylvia Bogert of Southwest Neighborhoods Inc, sbogert@spiritone.com, and ask to be placed on an email notification list. Have questions not covered by the above categories? Contact Emily Gottfried at portland@ajc.org, Sylvia Bogert at sbogert@spiritone.com, or Stephanie Reynolds at sreynolds@ci.portland.or.us See you on January 8th at the Multnomah Center! -Stephanie Stephanie Reynolds SW Crime Prevention Program Coordinator City of Portland, Office of Neighborhood Involvement Susan Steward, Director Uniting to Understand Racism PO Box 1089 Portland, OR 97207-1089 Phone: (503) 274-1747 email: understandracism@qwest.net From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Thu Dec 30 00:21:15 2004 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f28.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.38]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBU8LEei050456 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:09 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.194.88 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:20:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.194.88] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:20:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Dec 2004 08:21:09.0051 (UTC) FILETIME=[83DC10B0:01C4EE48] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:21:15 -0000 I heard the same story from a higher up, Bob, along with a caveat that the site be cleaned up a-la the one across the street (where the new Community Center now sits) at even more expense. These demands came from the same folks (staff and planning committees) who forced the school district to plant more trees in parking lots that were being renovated with bond money, so we ended up with fewer parking spots than we were supposed to have for the size of the building (duh). They also mandated more expensive doo-dads at every school site (like sidewalks to nowhere and huge new storm drain lines) - diverting taxpayer money from the badly needed school renovation projects. We could not afford to hire you to fight every one of these "rules", but we sure had some interesting discussions about them - right? Most of these folks are gone now, or no longer in authority, but their legacy lives on in infamy (in my mind, anyhoo). I'm afraid it may be too late for our beleaguered postal employees and patrons. We get to either stand in line in the rain outside the privy-sized post office in FG or take a short drive to a very spacious, attractive and well organized new facility in Cornelius (where they welcomed the Feds at the very same time that our fair city was regulating them out of town). Dick >From: Bob Browning >Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list >Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:56:43 -0800 > >Actually, Ron, I was told that they were going to move all the route >delivery people - in city and out - to the postal facility in Hillsboro, >which I think would be just scum, because we would lose the ability to mail >a local letter as late as 7:00 am and have it delivered the same day, the >last post office in the metro area where one can do that!! > >bob "always running late" browning > >PS: With respect to the "nice ornate" post office, it was my understanding >that is exactly what killed the post office approval, city demands that ran >the budget up from a bit over $ 1 million to almost $2 million, which the >post office would not swallow. I have also heard from Portland that they >may be interested in converting the 2 story concrete "blockhouse" at the >southwest corner of 19th and Ash!! > >b > >Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > >>I've never heard anyone ask for a "nice ornate" post office, just an >>efficient one big enough to serve the town with adequate access for both >>the >>Postal vehicles and the public. The sort of Post Office the USPS said was >>needed three years ago. >> >>The plan was to put the new one on Main between Pacific and 19th - very >>convenient for the USPS trucks coming and going every day from the main >>center as well as for the postal carriers. Also customers coming to the >>P.O. >>by car would have much better parking, and it's close to downtown and the >>city offices, etc. All in all, it should be a good win-win for everybody. >>Right now the big postal trucks have to navigate the small side streets >>and >>narrow alleys to get to the post office. >> >>The last I heard about the alternative plan to avoid building a new >>facility >>is that the USPS may rent a separate space for the local mail sorting and >>package handling, so we'd have the old office to buy stamps and deliver >>packages, unless you had a package to pick up then you'd either go >>somewhere >>else or they'd have to have someone courier it over to the public desk. >>And >>they'd have to staff both facilities. >> >>To me that sounds a lot like "save a buck today to spend an extra 100 over >>the next year." >> >>Frankly, I suspect it's just another prevarication by some USPS >>functionary >>trying to sound like the problem is being 'worked' . >> >>Ron D'Eau Claire >> >> From canonmetals@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 09:06:22 2004 Received: from web53909.mail.yahoo.com (web53909.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.219]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBUH6LMQ061031 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21777 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 17:06:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Y77rDaO5Z/nx7ARWJRPwV7NYopzlg+7Jm48xlCAXb+Gbg8FzD+1jeEqFglGkxPBsR1lA1mYesaNpfVfmM7O9rTcROOW9ihUXzYCTr+nP3/E38wVgKdlSTgAx7mpsXJYCBFchjNN2dtNQPsTraBezIASUoEvr4ua+BDhldYvl6Cs= ; Message-ID: <20041230170615.21775.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:06:15 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:06:15 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Amazing story X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:06:22 -0000 In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e From annahendricks@juno.com Thu Dec 30 09:21:52 2004 Received: from outbound-mail.lax.untd.com (outbound-mail.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.164]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBUHLqCI066437 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from annahendricks@juno.com) Received: from outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com (webmail22.lax.untd.com [10.131.27.162]) by smtpout01.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABA7JQJVATKV9EJ for (sender ); Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:21:23 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: kNtcg5Kb5hoWILBEUkzOvOfib490UIOry5hISGZGDw1NWBs+/xEAzbnMF6uO881x Received: (from annahendricks@juno.com) by webmail22.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KF46XXHE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:20:39 PST Received: from [65.123.215.66] by webmail22.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:19:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.215.66] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Anna Holland" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:19:43 GMT To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041230.092039.23644.115531@webmail22.lax.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 4:6:1652023249 X-MAIL-INFO: 38385cddb5c861d955a848611591f8b5c5894dc14561694d004c49ecf968e50d4d6c0d6ca51555ec21b1a119b1193d25797d7508557d6521d501ad012d49f9294101a5314185e1b8984c5899ad817c3531c13905b94d357595edf89c9c6c090d6c55acecfcb1ec78fc787d658921dc096565294500298d2dbda549bd1da5b14958854939852c81ed858135313db1acd51979ec657c65080c1d6dbd654c851848c81838c8d9f871c8f8b5c1adf168b5914d159189a14dc515c5c505bcdc7cc9cc55acece9b1ecd545e9fcb1fc X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:21:53 -0000 Eric, What a great story amid all this loss! It brings tears to my eyes at how God protects those that claim Him! I have been crying quite often the last couple of days as I have read the stories on CNN, MSNBC and the like. It is a relief to be crying in joy.. And, to answer your question, no these are not my friends, though they do sound similar. Woody Blok is Sri Lankan, his wife Melanie is American. She is actually from Texas, and I have spoken quite a bit with her mother. We are working on gathering money to build another floor for their orphanage so they can house some of the displaced children. Sadly, a majority of the children left out in the streets will probably end up as prostitutes servicing the Western tourists. Anna M. Holland (469) 698-0844 Home (214) 477-5813 Cell (214) 658-1704 Work -- Eric Canon wrote: In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 09:32:13 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUHWCaj069065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7243629514 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:32:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:31:48 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000f01c4ee95$76803cf0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBUHWCaj069065 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:32:13 -0000 Gee, Dick, do you honestly think there was a service station there with several leaking petroleum storage tanks under that building like there were on the Auditorium property? It's very easy to find out. Indeed, anyone, even the Federal Government, would be stupid not to have the site assessed before buying it for any purpose. And, if there tanks buried there, they should be properly decommissioned. The cleanup of a badly polluted site, like the one where the auditorium was built, does take time, but it's a straightforward process. The big delay on the auditorium was simply to make sure there was no further contamination of the ground water before covering up the site with concrete and asphalt. Some folks may think that's unnecessary. A lot of folks thought double-hulled tankers were unnecessary when the Exxon Valdez sailed too. Every "improvement" you mention, like "sidewalks to nowhere" become sidewalks to somewhere as the neighboring properties are upgraded. I get even more irritated to learn later that we have to face a property tax assessment because new storm drains, streets, etc., have to be built to serve new facilities that should have paid for them as part of their initial costs. It doesn't matter to me if it's a school or a supermarket. Cutting corners when building a facility with the idea that "someone else" will pick up the tab later to finish the job properly is irresponsible, I think. It sounds to me like the folks in "City Hall" were doing a good job. But, Hey! I even like trees in parking lots . Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Dick La Jeunesse Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:21 AM To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office I heard the same story from a higher up, Bob, along with a caveat that the site be cleaned up a-la the one across the street (where the new Community Center now sits) at even more expense. These demands came from the same folks (staff and planning committees) who forced the school district to plant more trees in parking lots that were being renovated with bond money, so we ended up with fewer parking spots than we were supposed to have for the size of the building (duh). They also mandated more expensive doo-dads at every school site (like sidewalks to nowhere and huge new storm drain lines) - diverting taxpayer money from the badly needed school renovation projects. We could not afford to hire you to fight every one of these "rules", but we sure had some interesting discussions about them - right? Most of these folks are gone now, or no longer in authority, but their legacy lives on in infamy (in my mind, anyhoo). I'm afraid it may be too late for our beleaguered postal employees and patrons. We get to either stand in line in the rain outside the privy-sized post office in FG or take a short drive to a very spacious, attractive and well organized new facility in Cornelius (where they welcomed the Feds at the very same time that our fair city was regulating them out of town). Dick >From: Bob Browning >Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list > >Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: Where's the Post Office >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:56:43 -0800 > >Actually, Ron, I was told that they were going to move all the route >delivery people - in city and out - to the postal facility in >Hillsboro, which I think would be just scum, because we would lose the >ability to mail a local letter as late as 7:00 am and have it delivered >the same day, the last post office in the metro area where one can do >that!! > >bob "always running late" browning > >PS: With respect to the "nice ornate" post office, it was my >understanding >that is exactly what killed the post office approval, city demands that ran >the budget up from a bit over $ 1 million to almost $2 million, which the >post office would not swallow. I have also heard from Portland that they >may be interested in converting the 2 story concrete "blockhouse" at the >southwest corner of 19th and Ash!! > >b > >Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > >>I've never heard anyone ask for a "nice ornate" post office, just an >>efficient one big enough to serve the town with adequate access for >>both the Postal vehicles and the public. The sort of Post Office the >>USPS said was needed three years ago. >> >>The plan was to put the new one on Main between Pacific and 19th - >>very convenient for the USPS trucks coming and going every day from >>the main center as well as for the postal carriers. Also customers >>coming to the P.O. by car would have much better parking, and it's >>close to downtown and the city offices, etc. All in all, it should be >>a good win-win for everybody. Right now the big postal trucks have to >>navigate the small side streets and >>narrow alleys to get to the post office. >> >>The last I heard about the alternative plan to avoid building a new >>facility is that the USPS may rent a separate space for the local mail >>sorting and package handling, so we'd have the old office to buy >>stamps and deliver packages, unless you had a package to pick up then >>you'd either go somewhere >>else or they'd have to have someone courier it over to the public desk. >>And >>they'd have to staff both facilities. >> >>To me that sounds a lot like "save a buck today to spend an extra 100 >>over the next year." >> >>Frankly, I suspect it's just another prevarication by some USPS >>functionary trying to sound like the problem is being 'worked' . >> >>Ron D'Eau Claire >> >> _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 10:19:58 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUIJvb5080525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F14B013 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:19:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:19:32 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001a01c4ee9c$24b46ed0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20041230170615.21775.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBUIJvb5080525 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:19:58 -0000 There was another story of some children who were washed up onto the back of an elephant who then trundled off into the jungle with them. I don't know if it's been confirmed. Such things are always astonishing. Apparently tsunami education was ignored in that region of the world, in spite of the dangers. I lamented that we in the USA have an extensive tsunami warning system that includes that area, but we never considered whether we had any responsibility to include those people in the program with some basic information and means of communications. We seem to be very good at studying the possible impact of a nuclear bomb from Korea while ignoring the possibility of a massive loss of life from something like this. As one observer put it, Americans are sports fans. They care about their team and don't think much about the welfare of others until they are sure they have won whatever contest they have chosen. That may be overly-harsh, but there's some truth in there as well. One of the basic bits of training that people there didn't have was that when the sea recedes, run the other way. Great numbers of children were seen running out onto the exposed sea bed, picking up fish left behind. That, coupled by the fact that children are less able to rescue themselves, helped lead to the awful catastrophe taking so many young lives. Another interesting observation was made in a news report yesterday: there are almost NO animals in the devastated areas. No carcasses. Nothing. Many reports told of animals running for the jungle just before the wave arrived. How did they know? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 11:31:07 2004 Received: from web53906.mail.yahoo.com (web53906.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.216]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id iBUJV6Vu001241 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 14627 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 19:31:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=nVBkQ8WW4VYN4xg/cMuT44X1ifM1wRjilXyZ8aXKK8b/MALtskfyVK0FdCzTB0EwKyQH1L/5P6f3+HELjqOVHzVSGf4kQP4CFGVMZ5WBHSuQtI4hbsg3nMAwvpL6mWjKBEDKUGoiDYMWeGXY6RoNdMlju8dmHC+vUWqP+agx8cY= ; Message-ID: <20041230193101.14625.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:31:01 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:31:01 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ee9c$24b46ed0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:31:07 -0000 My sister just told me that the Bush inauguration party has attracted $40 million. Another measure of where we place our priorities. Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: There was another story of some children who were washed up onto the back of an elephant who then trundled off into the jungle with them. I don't know if it's been confirmed. Such things are always astonishing. Apparently tsunami education was ignored in that region of the world, in spite of the dangers. I lamented that we in the USA have an extensive tsunami warning system that includes that area, but we never considered whether we had any responsibility to include those people in the program with some basic information and means of communications. We seem to be very good at studying the possible impact of a nuclear bomb from Korea while ignoring the possibility of a massive loss of life from something like this. As one observer put it, Americans are sports fans. They care about their team and don't think much about the welfare of others until they are sure they have won whatever contest they have chosen. That may be overly-harsh, but there's some truth in there as well. One of the basic bits of training that people there didn't have was that when the sea recedes, run the other way. Great numbers of children were seen running out onto the exposed sea bed, picking up fish left behind. That, coupled by the fact that children are less able to rescue themselves, helped lead to the awful catastrophe taking so many young lives. Another interesting observation was made in a news report yesterday: there are almost NO animals in the devastated areas. No carcasses. Nothing. Many reports told of animals running for the jungle just before the wave arrived. How did they know? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From doc@imakeyoursmile.com Thu Dec 30 11:41:53 2004 Received: from oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net (oe-iw1pub.managedmail.com [206.46.164.32]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUJfqd8004025 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doc@imakeyoursmile.com) Received: from doc ([4.8.167.20]) by oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20041230194147.CLLW15592.oe-iw1.bizmailsrvcs.net@doc>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:41:47 -0600 From: "Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S." To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:41:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ee9c$24b46ed0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: doc@imakeyoursmile.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:41:53 -0000 Ron, Do you know how long to time period is between the tsunami comeing in and the beach being exposed is? I heard accounts of tsunamis in Hawaii where kids went out onto the beach to pick up fish also and were washed away. I imagime that the time must vary with the size of the wave. Tom Alexander -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:20 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story There was another story of some children who were washed up onto the back of an elephant who then trundled off into the jungle with them. I don't know if it's been confirmed. Such things are always astonishing. Apparently tsunami education was ignored in that region of the world, in spite of the dangers. I lamented that we in the USA have an extensive tsunami warning system that includes that area, but we never considered whether we had any responsibility to include those people in the program with some basic information and means of communications. We seem to be very good at studying the possible impact of a nuclear bomb from Korea while ignoring the possibility of a massive loss of life from something like this. As one observer put it, Americans are sports fans. They care about their team and don't think much about the welfare of others until they are sure they have won whatever contest they have chosen. That may be overly-harsh, but there's some truth in there as well. One of the basic bits of training that people there didn't have was that when the sea recedes, run the other way. Great numbers of children were seen running out onto the exposed sea bed, picking up fish left behind. That, coupled by the fact that children are less able to rescue themselves, helped lead to the awful catastrophe taking so many young lives. Another interesting observation was made in a news report yesterday: there are almost NO animals in the devastated areas. No carcasses. Nothing. Many reports told of animals running for the jungle just before the wave arrived. How did they know? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Riskyvee@aol.com Thu Dec 30 12:22:45 2004 Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUKMiBM013005 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Riskyvee@aol.com) Received: from Riskyvee@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.e2.9dd715c (16087) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from aol.com (mow-d25.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.166]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILINID104-3ed741d4637d240; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:22:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:22:21 -0500 From: Riskyvee@aol.com To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <10E4068A.1F6CA1E3.0081931E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.165.223.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:22:46 -0000 In a message dated 12/30/2004 2:41:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S." writes: >Ron, > >Do you know how long to time period is between the tsunami comeing in and >the beach being exposed is? I heard accounts of tsunamis in Hawaii where >kids went out onto the beach to pick up fish also and were washed away. I >imagime that the time must vary with the size of the wave. > >Tom Alexander > I read that it moved about as fast as a jetliner can fly, around 400-500 mph. The Oregonian had a map-graphic a few days ago that indicated it reached the coast of Africa from the epicenter in 6 hours. From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 13:03:32 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUL3Vng022380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB4B29517 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:03:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:03:12 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000401c4eeb2$fe52dfd0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBUL3Vng022380 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:03:32 -0000 It depends upon the size of the wave and the geography of the coastline. You probably know that as the surge approaches it 'bumps' the ocean floor, like any wave, which slows it down so it builds in height. That causes the water at the shore to recede. I've seen comments that typical tsunamis travel at only 20 or 30 mph once they start to hit the ocean floor and build in height, although they travel at estimated speeds of 400 or 500 mph in deep water where they are an almost imperceptible bump in the ocean. In some areas the continental shelf extends out a very long way into the ocean. I would expect there might be a lot more time there. One news report showed some satellite pictures taken several hours apart. One caught the coastline during the recession of the water. Maybe they were just "lucky" or the water receded for quite a while. I don't know that part of the world, but noting all the reports of people seeing the wave approaching and going to boats, escaping by car, etc., make me think it might have slowed and formed as a tall wave quite a distance from the shore line. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Thomas F. Alexander, D.D.S. [mailto:doc@imakeyoursmile.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:42 AM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Ron, Do you know how long to time period is between the tsunami comeing in and the beach being exposed is? I heard accounts of tsunamis in Hawaii where kids went out onto the beach to pick up fish also and were washed away. I imagime that the time must vary with the size of the wave. Tom Alexander -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:20 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story There was another story of some children who were washed up onto the back of an elephant who then trundled off into the jungle with them. I don't know if it's been confirmed. Such things are always astonishing. Apparently tsunami education was ignored in that region of the world, in spite of the dangers. I lamented that we in the USA have an extensive tsunami warning system that includes that area, but we never considered whether we had any responsibility to include those people in the program with some basic information and means of communications. We seem to be very good at studying the possible impact of a nuclear bomb from Korea while ignoring the possibility of a massive loss of life from something like this. As one observer put it, Americans are sports fans. They care about their team and don't think much about the welfare of others until they are sure they have won whatever contest they have chosen. That may be overly-harsh, but there's some truth in there as well. One of the basic bits of training that people there didn't have was that when the sea recedes, run the other way. Great numbers of children were seen running out onto the exposed sea bed, picking up fish left behind. That, coupled by the fact that children are less able to rescue themselves, helped lead to the awful catastrophe taking so many young lives. Another interesting observation was made in a news report yesterday: there are almost NO animals in the devastated areas. No carcasses. Nothing. Many reports told of animals running for the jungle just before the wave arrived. How did they know? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it here: http://tinyurl.com/47y7e _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Thu Dec 30 14:26:47 2004 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBUMQllC052958 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:26:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id C5D40D682 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id OAA06796; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:26:40 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAnTqb0M71b6XhWnpsN2tH4Jy+MRcCFQC15Zum8xTXVxfm0C2cckUHcXii6Q== From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:26:40 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <28209-41D480A0-7722@storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBUMQllC052958 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Speed of Tusnami's X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:26:47 -0000 What ya always wanted to know about Tsunami's ... Tsunami, is a Japanese word, meaning “harbor wave†and used as the scientific term for seismic sea wave generated by an undersea earthquake or possibly an undersea landslide or volcanic eruption. When the ocean floor is tilted or offset during an earthquake, a set of waves is created similar to the concentric waves generated by an object dropped into the water. Most tsunamis originate along the Ring of Fire, a zone of volcanoes and seismic activity, 32,500 km (24,000 mi) long, that encircles the Pacific Ocean. Since 1819, about 40 tsunamis have struck the Hawaiian Islands. A tsunami can have wavelengths, or widths, of 100 to 200 km (60 to 120 mi), and may travel hundreds of kilometers across the deep ocean, reaching speeds of about 725 to 800 km/h (about 450 to 500 mph). Upon entering shallow coastal waters, the wave, which may have been only about half a meter (a foot or two) high out at sea, suddenly grows rapidly. When the wave reaches the shore, it may be 15 m (50 ft) high or more. Tsunamis have tremendous energy because of the great volume of water affected. They are capable of obliterating coastal settlements. Tsunamis should not be confused with storm surges, which are domes of water that rise underneath hurricanes or cyclones and cause extensive coastal flooding when the storms reach land. Storm surges are particularly devastating if they occur at high tide. A cyclone and accompanying storm surge killed an estimated 500,000 people in Bangladesh in 1970. http://www.geophys.washington.edu/tsunami/general/physics/physics.html From k.wilke@comcast.net Thu Dec 30 17:30:04 2004 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV1U4hN094446 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.wilke@comcast.net) Received: from [67.169.192.219] (c-67-169-192-219.client.comcast.net[67.169.192.219]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041231012400012003micbe>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:24:00 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:23:21 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story From: Kurt Wilke To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ee9c$24b46ed0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:30:04 -0000 Ron: Just one point of clarification. Tsunami's were thought to be NOT a risk in that region. That is the main reason that there was no system set up to prepare or warn people when one happened. There is nothing set up in the Indian Ocean to monitor tsunami's like there is in the Pacific Ocean. Kurt On 12/30/2004 10:19 AM, "Ron D'Eau Claire" wrote: > There was another story of some children who were washed up onto the back of > an elephant who then trundled off into the jungle with them. I don't know if > it's been confirmed. Such things are always astonishing. > > Apparently tsunami education was ignored in that region of the world, in > spite of the dangers. I lamented that we in the USA have an extensive > tsunami warning system that includes that area, but we never considered > whether we had any responsibility to include those people in the program > with some basic information and means of communications. > > We seem to be very good at studying the possible impact of a nuclear bomb > from Korea while ignoring the possibility of a massive loss of life from > something like this. As one observer put it, Americans are sports fans. They > care about their team and don't think much about the welfare of others until > they are sure they have won whatever contest they have chosen. > > That may be overly-harsh, but there's some truth in there as well. > > One of the basic bits of training that people there didn't have was that > when the sea recedes, run the other way. Great numbers of children were seen > running out onto the exposed sea bed, picking up fish left behind. That, > coupled by the fact that children are less able to rescue themselves, helped > lead to the awful catastrophe taking so many young lives. > > Another interesting observation was made in a news report yesterday: there > are almost NO animals in the devastated areas. No carcasses. Nothing. Many > reports told of animals running for the jungle just before the wave arrived. > How did they know? > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > In todays Oregonian is a story about an orphanage (are these the friends you > spoke of, Anna?) that was located between the beach and a lagoon and > miraculously survived the tsunami wave. This is an incredible story. So many > of the fatalities are children. These folks saved their children. Read it > here: > > http://tinyurl.com/47y7e > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 17:46:54 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV1ksAC098538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B410B002 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:37 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4eeda$96384d90$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBV1ksAC098538 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:46:55 -0000 Really? It was my understanding that tsunami's were considered a significant risk all the way around the "ring of fire"! Thank you for the input Kurt. That certainly would explain the lackadaisical approach to any sort of warning system. Of course it didn't help that Sri Lanka has been involved in a big civil war until fairly recently as well. Given the absolutely horrible results, I'll bet it causes some changes in how we think about such things in the future. I noticed President Kumaratunga's address to the UN. She said: "This is a moment of great humility for us all. We have been incredibly humbled by Nature's great forces. An ineluctable truth has been laid bare before us all. The mighty forces of Nature have compelled us to learn a lesson that some of us refused for long to learn. We have to act together, if we are to emerge from the ashes of this destruction. Loss of life, loss and destruction of property take place irrespective of whether it is in the North or South. It does not differentiate between the Sinhalese, Tamils or Muslims." I think she could have included all the people's of the earth in that. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Wilke Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:23 PM To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story Ron: Just one point of clarification. Tsunami's were thought to be NOT a risk in that region. That is the main reason that there was no system set up to prepare or warn people when one happened. There is nothing set up in the Indian Ocean to monitor tsunami's like there is in the Pacific Ocean. Kurt From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Thu Dec 30 19:55:06 2004 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV3t1x9025141 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:55:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 9C306D67F for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id TAA12043; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRntpHzaiUiNKpwjGStW5hRqgi+SwIURTD34yVaHALq1TnoW7iXn5uhThU= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <25641-41D4CD8F-5277@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] nite, nite X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:55:06 -0000 It's been a hard day so http://members.tripod.com/~linhager/html-10/lazytiger.html ~alan~ and by the bye... if anyone would like to know who an OleHoss is ... just ask ~ Hoss From k.wilke@comcast.net Thu Dec 30 20:03:33 2004 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV43WWs026952 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.wilke@comcast.net) Received: from [67.169.192.219] (c-67-169-192-219.client.comcast.net[67.169.192.219]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004123104032101600pv0i3e>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:03:21 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:02:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story From: Kurt Wilke To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c4eeda$96384d90$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:03:33 -0000 You are correct about the "Ring of Fire. However this he is all Pacific Ocean. It does not extend into the Indian Ocean. Kurt On 12/30/2004 5:46 PM, "Ron D'Eau Claire" wrote: > Really? > > It was my understanding that tsunami's were considered a significant risk > all the way around the "ring of fire"! > > Thank you for the input Kurt. > > That certainly would explain the lackadaisical approach to any sort of > warning system. Of course it didn't help that Sri Lanka has been involved in > a big civil war until fairly recently as well. > > Given the absolutely horrible results, I'll bet it causes some changes in > how we think about such things in the future. I noticed President > Kumaratunga's address to the UN. She said: > > "This is a moment of great humility for us all. We have been incredibly > humbled by Nature's great forces. An ineluctable truth has been laid bare > before us all. The mighty forces of Nature have compelled us to learn a > lesson that some of us refused for long to learn. We have to act together, > if we are to emerge from the ashes of this destruction. Loss of life, loss > and destruction of property take place irrespective of whether it is in the > North or South. It does not differentiate between the Sinhalese, Tamils or > Muslims." > > I think she could have included all the people's of the earth in that. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Kurt Wilke > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:23 PM > To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story > > > Ron: > > Just one point of clarification. Tsunami's were thought to be NOT a risk in > that region. That is the main reason that there was no system set up to > prepare or warn people when one happened. There is nothing set up in the > Indian Ocean to monitor tsunami's like there is in the Pacific Ocean. > > Kurt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jmulick@verizon.net Thu Dec 30 20:07:22 2004 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV47Lqd027938 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmulick@verizon.net) Received: from mulick ([4.30.4.111]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231035947.VIIB28362.out005.verizon.net@mulick> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:59:47 -0600 Message-ID: <025b01c4eeed$069e8b50$2d01a8c0@mulick> From: "Jeff Mulick" To: References: <28209-41D480A0-7722@storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Speed of Tusnami's Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:58:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.30.4.111] at Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:59:46 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:07:22 -0000 More tsunami research...this one on the 1700 event... jeff http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1997-10/UoW-TSL1-291097.php From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Thu Dec 30 20:10:55 2004 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV4AslW028747 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231040554.XQKX28025.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:05:54 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:05:00 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000001c4eeda$96384d90$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000001c4eeda$96384d90$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412302005.00809.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:05:51 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:10:56 -0000 Yes and no. From the reports I've heard, there haven't been major tsunamis in the Indian Ocean in the last 100 years, but that doesn't mean they don't happen. I think Alan mentioned the storm surge that caused devastation in Bangladesh, much of which is at a low elevation. Probably the eruption of Krakatoa had somewhat similar effects. At any rate, tsunami warning systems are very expensive, and in that part of the world there are so many more imminent threats to survival on a day-to-day basis that no one could think of investing in a system that might never be used for decades. The quote is very apt, and certainly does apply to us all. On Thursday 30 December 2004 17:46, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Really? > > It was my understanding that tsunami's were considered a significant risk > all the way around the "ring of fire"! > > Thank you for the input Kurt. > > That certainly would explain the lackadaisical approach to any sort of > warning system. Of course it didn't help that Sri Lanka has been involved > in a big civil war until fairly recently as well. > > Given the absolutely horrible results, I'll bet it causes some changes in > how we think about such things in the future. I noticed President > Kumaratunga's address to the UN. She said: > > "This is a moment of great humility for us all. We have been incredibly > humbled by Nature's great forces. An ineluctable truth has been laid bare > before us all. The mighty forces of Nature have compelled us to learn a > lesson that some of us refused for long to learn. We have to act together, > if we are to emerge from the ashes of this destruction. Loss of life, loss > and destruction of property take place irrespective of whether it is in the > North or South. It does not differentiate between the Sinhalese, Tamils or > Muslims." > > I think she could have included all the people's of the earth in that. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Kurt Wilke > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:23 PM > To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amazing story > > > Ron: > > Just one point of clarification. Tsunami's were thought to be NOT a risk > in that region. That is the main reason that there was no system set up to > prepare or warn people when one happened. There is nothing set up in the > Indian Ocean to monitor tsunami's like there is in the Pacific Ocean. > > Kurt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Thu Dec 30 20:50:17 2004 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV4oG7c037108 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:50:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231045015.WVXX10436.out012.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:50:15 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:49:24 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412302049.24392.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:50:15 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Posting To The List X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:50:17 -0000 The list seems to be perking right along now, but there is one problem that has come up: several people have tried to post to the list from addresses other than the one at which they are subscribed. When that happens, the message is rejected. I get a notice of it and so can alert people about the problem. I wouldn't be eager to open up the list to non-members for fear of opening the spam floodgates, but there are some alternatives. The most appealing is to have messages from non-subscribers held for approval, but that feature doesn't seem to be working. Soooo, unless and until we can fix that, PLEASE remember to post from the address by which you are subscribed! We now return to the regularly scheduled program (whatever that was). ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From vzd1s0ul@verizon.net Thu Dec 30 20:58:14 2004 Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV4wDUn038702 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vzd1s0ul@verizon.net) Received: from marion ([4.10.144.32]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231045810.ZCLL12052.out002.verizon.net@marion> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:58:10 -0600 From: "Marion Hurt" To: "Grovenet" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:57:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c4eef5$4479fce0$0200a8c0@marion> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.10.144.32] at Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:58:09 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Southern Asia X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 04:58:14 -0000 I decided I had to share some musings I just sent on to a couple special cousins of mine. One could have been in the area of the tsunami, as he has been in Bangkok in recent years teaching classes at a university there at this time of year. This time he was in Peru instead, thank heavens! Anyhow, the events in southern Asia are beyond comprehension! I heard this morning that there were about 3,000 Americans still missing! That number is pretty familiar! My husband's comment was we can't go in and invade anyone to avenge this loss! Too bad the things in Iraq and Afghanistan couldn't stop and all pull together to help all those in need there! I was thinking the other night about the Christmas truces that used to be called when "enemies" stopped fighting and joined in Christmas carols and shared cigarettes! Marion Hurt From vzd1s0ul@verizon.net Thu Dec 30 21:12:28 2004 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV5CRSv041716 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vzd1s0ul@verizon.net) Received: from marion ([4.10.144.32]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231051226.TRGU8290.out004.verizon.net@marion> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:12:26 -0600 From: "Marion Hurt" To: "Grovenet" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:12:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01c4eef7$4331da90$0200a8c0@marion> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.10.144.32] at Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:12:26 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Tsunamis X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:12:28 -0000 One of those cousins I previously mentioned lives in San Diego and he talked about why the tsunami didn't have much if any effect on our west coast there. "The big earthquake and tsunami that devastated southern Asia, was hardly noticed here. The 500 mile per hour thrust of water was mitigated by the underwater canyons, ridges and islands, that shield us from such things. There was only about a 1- to 2-foot wave that bumped the beaches and jiggled boats at the piers in the bay." On another topic, I have to say that the "New Grovenet" is so much easier for me to navigate. I have a contact in Outlook to send a message and I really appreciate how the new digests come. It used to be hard to maneuver through all the additional copies of messages in each of the threads! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Marion Hurt From jo.david@verizon.net Thu Dec 30 22:40:41 2004 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV6efqD057808 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:40:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041231064040.EADO1106.out003.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:40:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:40:38 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where's the Post Office Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000301c4edf5$f74aa050$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:40:39 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 06:40:41 -0000 On Wednesday, December 29, 2004, at 02:30 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > That sounds partially right, Tom. However the plans were always to > build new post offices here, in Cornelius and in Gaston. I believe > that the delay here was actually that the building on the site they > wanted was at both condemned and listed "historic" structure. It took > time to get the approvals to demolish it and by then the post office > building freeze was on. > Ron, I believe that part of the delay was related to the size of the available parcel and the minimum needs for the Post Office. And part of the delay was caused by a request by some opponent of the proposed site to consider the building for historic status. The building was not a listed historic structure, and I heard no support from historic preservation groups in favor of it's preservation at the expense of the downtown plan. BTW, the former Burlingham Seed Company site on 19th between Main and Ash is a site that appears to meet all of the Post Office's criteria, as well as be a location that would serve as a Southern anchor for the Central Business District. It was a going concern at the time of the Downtown Plan, so it was not proposed for the Post Office site. By the time the seed company went away and the site appeared available, the momentum for the site across from the City Auditorium was still going strong and no one wanted to consider dealing with the legal issues for the larger, better site. David From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 23:16:10 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV7G9Bt064335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025DFB005 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:16:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Southern Asia Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:15:50 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001101c4ef08$93bc8940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <000901c4eef5$4479fce0$0200a8c0@marion> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBV7G9Bt064335 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:16:10 -0000 Remember too that after the first Christmas Truce on the front lines of WWI, the officers notified the troops that anyone attempting it the following year would be shot. Can't have a decent war unless the soldiers hate each other. Darn war just won't keep going properly if people start talking to each other. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marion Hurt Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:58 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Southern Asia I decided I had to share some musings I just sent on to a couple special cousins of mine. One could have been in the area of the tsunami, as he has been in Bangkok in recent years teaching classes at a university there at this time of year. This time he was in Peru instead, thank heavens! Anyhow, the events in southern Asia are beyond comprehension! I heard this morning that there were about 3,000 Americans still missing! That number is pretty familiar! My husband's comment was we can't go in and invade anyone to avenge this loss! Too bad the things in Iraq and Afghanistan couldn't stop and all pull together to help all those in need there! I was thinking the other night about the Christmas truces that used to be called when "enemies" stopped fighting and joined in Christmas carols and shared cigarettes! Marion Hurt _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Thu Dec 30 23:16:11 2004 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBV7GAtr064337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:16:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA54EB013 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:16:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amazing story Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:15:50 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001201c4ef08$93d679e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <200412302005.00809.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id iBV7GAtr064337 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:16:11 -0000 Meredith Bliss wrote: ...At any rate, tsunami warning systems are very expensive, and in that part of the world there are so many more imminent threats to survival on a day-to-day basis that no one could think of investing in a system that might never be used for decades. -------------------------- The Hawaiian Tsunami center detected and tracked this one so that part of the system is in place. The problem was in contacting the people in the affected areas and warning them. The news reports said that the people at the Hawaiian center were frantically calling every number they could find trying to find some agency or system that could issue warnings - without success. It would seem that a robust communications system would have lots of uses in that part of the world. At least something to tie various civil government agencies together. Nor would it seem awfully expensive. Shortwave radios are very reliable and very cheap and "hammer simple" to use. One doesn't need fancy satellite stuff. Indeed, for the best reliability, one does not want the fancy stuff! Ron D'Eau Claire From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Fri Dec 31 07:59:05 2004 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBVFx5B7063893 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:59:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id E23D4D7AD for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA27262; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQV0i6X8+8ZJrSFvnjrWK2tISiqRAIUXa1JB+mMry0bVsTmQkq/DxSg+4Q= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:58:54 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <1881-41D5773E-547@storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-12421-328 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Good Morning X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:59:05 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-12421-328 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit if any one is unable to open the attachment here is the url.... it's just my way of wishing everybody a good morning "Hosstyle" ~alan~ big grin ~ Hoss http://community-2.webtv.net/GrnMtn_T_Roses2/GoodMorning/ --WebTV-Mail-12421-328 X-URL-Title: Good Morning Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/GrnMtn_T_Roses2/GoodMorning/ --WebTV-Mail-12421-328-- From rab@jurislex.com Fri Dec 31 08:32:19 2004 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBVGWIAD071601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78B06DC017; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:32:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41D57F15.1000400@jurislex.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:32:21 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------020608070507040104020801" Subject: [Grovenet] The Moral High Ground . . . . X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:32:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020608070507040104020801 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ahh, the Republican Party, home of the moral high ground (not!!!!).

bob "why am I not surprised??" browning


Yahoo! News
House to Consider Relaxing Its Rules

Fri Dec 31, 4:59 AM ET
Add to My Yahoo!  Top Stories - washingtonpost.com

By Mike Allen and Charles Babington, Washington Post Staff Writers

House Republican leaders are urging members to alter one of the chamber's fundamental ethics rules, which would make it harder for lawmakers to discipline a colleague.

The proposed change would essentially negate a general rule of conduct that the ethics committee has often cited in admonishing lawmakers -- including Majority Leader Tom DeLay -- for bringing discredit on the House even if their behavior was not covered by a specific regulation. Backers of the rule, adopted three decades ago, say it is important because the House's conduct code cannot anticipate every instance of questionable behavior that might reflect poorly on the chamber.

Republicans, returning to the Capitol on Tuesday after increasing their House majority by three seats in the Nov. 2 election, also want to relax a restriction on relatives of lawmakers accepting foreign and domestic trips from groups interested in legislation before the House.

A third proposed rule change would allow either party to stop the House ethics committee from investigating a complaint against a member.

Currently, if the panel, which is evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats, is deadlocked on a complaint, the matter automatically goes to an investigative subcommittee after 45 days. The proposed change would drop any complaint that is not backed by a majority vote to move it forward.

Government watchdog groups called the proposals startling and unjustified. If the proposed rules are adopted next week as GOP leaders suggest, they would amount to "the biggest backtracking on House ethics rules that we have seen," said Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21.

The proposals are among the nearly two dozen House rule changes being circulated for comment this week by GOP leaders, in preparation for the 109th Congress. The majority Republican caucus plans to discuss the proposals Monday, with the full House scheduled to vote on them Tuesday.

Several Republicans have criticized the ethics process in the wake of three admonitions this year against DeLay (R-Tex.). A House official familiar with the new proposal on the rule about bringing discredit said the ethics committee could not have acted against DeLay if the change had been in place.

A high-ranking House GOP aide, who could speak only on background because of his office's rules, said many lawmakers support the rule change because they do not want the ethics committee to be able to act against a member by saying "we're not sure what he's done wrong, but we don't like it."

The House Code of Conduct requires members and aides to conduct themselves "in a manner which shall reflect creditably on the House." Over the years, the ethics committee has cited the provision in, for example, rebuking DeLay for his dealings with a Kansas-based energy company seeking legislative favors. DeLay's actions did not violate a specific law or House rule, the panel concluded this fall, but they reflected poorly on the House.

Under the proposed change, lawmakers would automatically be in compliance with the Code of Conduct if they met the narrower standard of following "applicable laws, regulations and rules."

A House official familiar with the ethics committee's rules and traditions said the proposed change is "an effort to say a member's conduct does not bring discredit on the House unless it violates a specific rule." The official, who cited committee guidelines in demanding anonymity, said this year's admonitions against DeLay would not have been possible under the proposed change because House rules are not specific and numerous enough to bar every instance of dubious behavior that might occur.

DeLay, responding to the ethics committee's findings in September, said that he "would never knowingly violate the rules of the House" and that he deeply believes that members "must conduct ourselves at all times in a manner that reflects creditably on this institution."

Earlier this year, House Republicans rewrote a party rule so that DeLay can keep his leadership job even if he is indicted by a Texas grand jury. The grand jury has indicted three of his political associates in an investigation of campaign finances related to a House redistricting plan that DeLay helped push through in Texas.

Republican aides said Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) is also leaning toward removing the ethics committee's chairman, Rep. Joel Hefley (R-Colo.), who oversaw the admonishments of DeLay.

Congressional watchdogs sharply criticized the proposed rule change on bringing discredit to the chamber, which they said would weaken the House's already lax system of policing its members' conduct.

"This would be a fundamental undermining of the ethics rules in the House and a direct attempt to vitiate the findings of ethical misconduct against Majority Leader DeLay," Wertheimer said. "If this is done, it would be an extraordinarily destructive action against the ethics rules and would fundamentally undermine the integrity of the House."

Another proposed change, labeled "restore presumption of innocence," provides that the ethics committee, formally known as the Committee on Standards of Official Conduct, will act on a complaint against a member only if both the chairman and the ranking minority member -- or the entire committee, consisting of five Democrats and five Republicans -- agree that an investigation is merited. Currently, the failure to make a decision -- regardless of whether it stems from a partisan stalemate -- automatically sends a complaint to an investigative subcommittee.

Gary Ruskin, director of the Congressional Accountability Project, said the result would be "a climate more conducive to corruption."

"The most important part of a congressional investigation is at the outset -- whether to have one -- so Republicans are trying to make sure they don't have them," Ruskin said.

Wertheimer said the change would mean "one-party veto power" over complaints. "It's a clear backtracking on an already weak process," he said. "It looks like an effort to increase the capacity to bury complaints without even looking at them."

Hastert spokesman John Feehery said the change would put the ethics committee in line with traditional House committees, which block issues that lack a majority vote. Unlike the ethics panel, traditional committees are controlled by the majority party.

The proposal, in a section called "due process for members," also calls for lawmakers accused by the ethics panel to have the chance to be heard before they are summoned for questioning. Under the current rule, according to a summary provided to Republican members, the committee "can take action against a Member without a complaint, notice, or the opportunity to be heard."

The proposed rule on travel would benefit single members, who would be able to take a parent, according to an aide. Currently, a House member's child or spouse may accompany a lawmaker or staff person on a privately funded but officially connected trip at the sponsor's expense. The rule change would expand that to cover any relative.

<> Research editor Lucy Shackelford contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2004 The Washington Post Company.
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Message-ID: <1876-41D584EA-5681@storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:32:21 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:57:43 -0000 Bob... this sounds as if the watch-dogs need watch-dogs .... ~alan~ got my own watch-dawg ~ Hoss p://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/WatchDawg ><----------- cut ----- ~ Government watchdog groups called the proposals startling and unjustified. If the proposed rules are adopted next week as GOP leaders suggest, they would amount to "the biggest backtracking on House ethics rules that we have seen," said Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21 ~ From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Fri Dec 31 09:04:35 2004 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBVH4Zi4078583 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 84115D6DD for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA28812; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAglcmkdX7a3TjgCjZCRA0vVxU2rcCFD9oZFutscn5CeNgKRXIPOSeisSn From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:04:22 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <1878-41D58696-3581@storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-26397-1903 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Subject: [Grovenet] Watch-Dawg X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:04:36 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-26397-1903 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/WatchDawg/ --WebTV-Mail-26397-1903 X-URL-Title: Watch-Dawg Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/WatchDawg/ --WebTV-Mail-26397-1903-- From SteveWhisler@cs.com Fri Dec 31 12:25:44 2004 Received: from imo-m26.mx.aol.com (imo-m26.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.7]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBVKPhNN020715 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from SteveWhisler@cs.com) Received: from SteveWhisler@cs.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.f5.47dd9a1f (26116) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: SteveWhisler@cs.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:25:30 EST To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] In Today's Paper X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:25:45 -0000 On page two today is an article about the continued terrorist efforts to make sure that an election is not held in Iraq on January 30. These efforts are intended to promote the goals that groups everywhere have used when they have resorted to terrorism to bring down whatever government they hate. The article tells us that all 700 employees of the electoral commission in Mosul have resigned in response to threats against their safety. Who can blame them given the daily reports of attacks on their fellow citizens? Resignations like this are exactly the outcome that terrorists want. The effect is to prevent the moderate citizens from ever achieving a government that works. In this case, it may prevent the election of a national assembly intended to write a constitution for Iraq. The article is also interesting because three of the insurgent groups state that democracy is "un-Islamic" because it "means that people do what they see fit." It is another indication of the religious nuts interpreting their religion to suit themselves and the need for members of that religion to resist interpretations by zealots. I hope that they do. Our country also has its problems with religious fundamentalists but, at least here, our belief in democracy and long history of democratic practices keep us talking about it rather than killing one another. The new year presents opportunities and challenges that are different and in some ways the same as those our citizenry have always faced. I look forward to 2005. We certainly live in interesting times. Shalom. From ebgenly@verizon.net Fri Dec 31 17:42:05 2004 Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j011g4Mk086012 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:42:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050101014204.DANG4717.out011.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:42:04 -0600 Message-ID: <41D5FF97.4020409@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:40:39 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good Morning References: <1881-41D5773E-547@storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: <1881-41D5773E-547@storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:42:03 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 01:42:05 -0000 Alan,
You grow gorgeous roses, and take gorgeous pictures of them.  Thanks for sharing!
This rainy cold day is an especially good one for looking at a glowing yellow rose.
Beth

  

http://community-2.webtv.net/GrnMtn_T_Roses2/GoodMorning/
  

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From jo.david@verizon.net Fri Dec 31 21:18:24 2004 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j015IN3S022243 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050101051822.JAGR28388.out014.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:18:22 -0600 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:18:21 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Moral High Ground . . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <41D57F15.1000400@jurislex.com> Message-Id: <8DCCE758-5BB4-11D9-815B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:18:22 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 05:18:24 -0000 On Friday, December 31, 2004, at 08:32 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Ahh, the Republican Party, home of the moral high ground (not!!!!). > > bob "why am I not surprised??" browning > > They may be more interested in how you conduct your sex life, than in how Congress does their work. David From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Fri Dec 31 23:01:01 2004 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j01711gK038925 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:01:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 8CA87D60B for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id XAA28235; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:00:55 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQuG8qjEIsdUlbGlsKCfCBzOQlAJwIUbiscyxP55duf6ldSuweSlBunwk8= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:00:55 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <17957-41D64AA7-2293@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-8646-1083 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Best Pictures of 2004 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:01:01 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-8646-1083 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit this is what an OleHoss did on New Years Eve ... 2005 .. 20 years ago on Jan 25th 1985 is when I was hit by a drunk driver in a cross-walk near the Morro Bay Police Station House where I worked... However, ya got to look on the bright side... at least I'm still around to tell another OleHoss in Hosstyle ... ~alan~ wordsmith ~ Hoss http://community-2.webtv.net/GreenMtn_TreeFarm/BestPicturesof2004/ --WebTV-Mail-8646-1083 X-URL-Title: Best Pictures of 2004 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://community-2.webtv.net/GreenMtn_TreeFarm/BestPicturesof2004/ --WebTV-Mail-8646-1083-- From rlo42@yahoo.com Sat Jan 1 07:41:18 2005 Received: from web14207.mail.yahoo.com (web14207.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.71]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j01FfIap040632 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:41:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 86696 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jan 2005 15:41:17 -0000 Message-ID: <20050101154117.86694.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.12.152.33] by web14207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:41:17 PST Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:41:17 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <17957-41D64AA7-2293@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Congrats Bob B! End the year on the tube! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 15:41:19 -0000 Don't know if anyone else saw him but our famous/infamous attorney was on the tube for 15 seconds to close out the new year! Congratulations on your discovery Mr. Browning! I am happy for YOU! :) +rlo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From ggsteele@gte.net Sat Jan 1 11:01:03 2005 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j01J12P9083855 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:01:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050101185009.JPZX10436.out012.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:50:09 -0600 Message-ID: <003001c4f032$b9b144d0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:50:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:50:09 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] 2005 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:01:03 -0000 Hi, all GroveNuts ~ I have not kept up with GroveNet (or lots of my other email!) much for a few weeks now ... but certainly want to join in (belatedly) = thanking [Thank You!] all those who made GroveNet possible -- in the past and currently! Re-intro: Born and raised in Louisiana, lived in NYC & L.A. for ten = years, then came to Oregon. Married to Mike, raised four kids here in F.G., = have one grandchild ... and one cat. ;-) Have worked in acting, publishing; = currently off-and-on freelance artist, designer, writer. Really hoping for a better 2005 for everyone ... Hard to be very upbeat = after the tsunami and huge loss of life -- so many families gone or suffering = such enormous losses. --- Had made a link for GroveNuts only, and decided to go ahead and send it: http://tinyurl.com/56gsq Best to you all ... Geri From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 1 11:08:16 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j01J8Guh085190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3110B294E3 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:08:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] 2005 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:08:00 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f035$3b0039e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003001c4f032$b9b144d0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:08:16 -0000 Thanks Geri!! Great!!! Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- Had made a link for GroveNuts only, and decided to go ahead and send it: http://tinyurl.com/56gsq Best to you all ... Geri _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt@verizon.net Sat Jan 1 14:24:16 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j01MOF9L024630 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from Home ([4.11.49.116]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050101221849.IREQ24714.out010.verizon.net@Home> for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:18:49 -0600 From: "allnutt" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] 2005 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c4f04f$d9f6a880$74310b04@Home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003001c4f032$b9b144d0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:18:41 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:24:16 -0000 Love the acorns in the picture! I wore my Oberzil pin to two parties this year. Katie -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 10:50 AM To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] 2005 Hi, all GroveNuts ~ I have not kept up with GroveNet (or lots of my other email!) much for a few weeks now ... but certainly want to join in (belatedly) thanking [Thank You!] all those who made GroveNet possible -- in the past and currently! Re-intro: Born and raised in Louisiana, lived in NYC & L.A. for ten years, then came to Oregon. Married to Mike, raised four kids here in F.G., have one grandchild ... and one cat. ;-) Have worked in acting, publishing; currently off-and-on freelance artist, designer, writer. Really hoping for a better 2005 for everyone ... Hard to be very upbeat after the tsunami and huge loss of life -- so many families gone or suffering such enormous losses. --- Had made a link for GroveNuts only, and decided to go ahead and send it: http://tinyurl.com/56gsq Best to you all ... Geri _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Sat Jan 1 15:23:54 2005 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j01NNrXt038284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (69-30-8-221.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.8.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j01NMfnD014009 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:22:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c4f058$cf750ec0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Grovenet FG" Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:22:43 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4F015.BDA19800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Banda Aceh, Indonesia. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:23:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4F015.BDA19800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An example of the devastation in Indonesia. 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ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4508CB002 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:47:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Banda Aceh, Indonesia. Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:47:26 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000701c4f05c$44b9eef0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000701c4f058$cf750ec0$6601a8c0@700x> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:47:48 -0000 An example of the devastation in Indonesia. Ed Davie ------------------- Wow! Thanks Ed. Ron D'Eau Claire From chgenly@verizon.net Sat Jan 1 18:46:32 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j022kVov078995 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.200] ([4.5.12.154]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102024630.LLFT28362.out005.verizon.net@[10.0.0.200]> for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:46:30 -0600 From: Chris Genly To: grovenet@rdrop.com Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 02:46:27 +0000 Message-Id: <1104633987.11725.1.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:46:30 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Open source software X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 02:46:32 -0000 Happy new year everyone. I thought I'd start the new year on grovenet by letting people know about various open source programs I find really useful. Since they are open source, they are free! Most of these projects will run on Mac, Linux and Windows. I really like programs which run on many different operating systems. It allows you to choose the operating system you like most, and still be able to work with others, no matter what operating system they choose. Open office For windows, linux and Mac - http://www.openoffice.org Open office is a high quality open source word processor, spread sheet and presentation office suite. It is able to read and write Microsoft format documents. GIMP - GNU image manipulation program. Mac - http://www.macgimp.org/ Windows - http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/ Linux - http://www.gimp.org This is a really powerful image manipulation program. You can convert image formats, change brightness and contrast, scale image size, crop and a whole lot more. Linspire - Linux for non-techies Linux - http://linspire.com/ Linspire is a GNU/Linux operating system with an inexpensive subscription download service to provide access to a large library of linux software. The library is called Click-N-Run. Choose a program from the library, click on the install link and the program will be downloaded and installed automatically. Once paid for, the download service can be used on all the machines in your house. Many of the inexpenive computers (sub $500 and sub $300) use Linspire because there is no cost to the manufacturer to install it. Firefox - Web browser Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org A standards compliant web browser with tabbed windows, and pop up blocking. Many people I know really like this browser. Thunderbird - Mail program Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org An excellent standards compliant email program with spam filtering, and html mail. This is from the same project that made the Firefox web browser. TightVNC - Computer remote control program. Linux, Windows - http://tightvnc.com If you have ever tried to help someone over the phone with a computer problem, you'll appreciate how hard it can be. TightVNC will let you see the remote computers screen, and let you use your local keyboard and mouse to control it. Chess game Windows and linux - http://www.tim-mann.org/xboard.html If you like to play chess, this is a free way to play against your computer. NIST Time Mac, Windows - http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/service/its.htm Not needed if you have Mac OS X. Linux - Use ntpd instead. Set your computer's time using the National Institue of Standards and Technology atomic clock. If you are running Linux, use ntpd. ---- This is not an open source project. I included it for its coolness. Sipphone http://www.siphone.com If you have broadband internet, this is a cool way to make phone calls. There are two ways to do this. You can use sipphone windows software to make phone calls from your computer, or you can use a sipphone adapter to use your regular phone. Calling another sip phone is free. For long distance, you have to buy sip minutes. Anywhere in the US is two cents a minute. We will be calling greece at eight cents a minute. Chris From bjbergee@jps.net Sat Jan 1 19:10:39 2005 Received: from flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.148]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j023Adpa083279 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bjbergee@jps.net) Received: from pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop10.sprintmail.com [207.217.120.197]) by flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j022oGU18575 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdn-ap-002watacop0171.dialsprint.net ([63.187.200.171]) by pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Ckvot-0004Sq-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:50:16 -0800 Message-ID: <41D76189.6010904@jps.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:50:49 -0800 From: "B.J. Bergee" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grove Net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Recommendation??? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 03:10:39 -0000 Sadly, I fear, my old electric furnace needs some TLC. I would appreciate any recommendations for a repairman, preferably local, or at least nearby. Thanks a heap. From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 1 20:32:15 2005 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j024WFj4097177 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 34B06D6AE for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id UAA16084; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:32:10 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRDLW+I+gxOdZa6cN7p93xBzhSVoAIVAIu6PPcgJVS4ufon1LiRDLtoR4Qw From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:32:09 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <17954-41D77949-11713@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-10624-5309 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] weather.com X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:32:15 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-10624-5309 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.weather.com/ --WebTV-Mail-10624-5309 X-URL-Title: weather.com Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.weather.com/ --WebTV-Mail-10624-5309-- From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sat Jan 1 20:46:59 2005 Received: from web53906.mail.yahoo.com (web53906.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.216]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j024kwEV099626 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 71960 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 04:46:53 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=PrHs4IbL8wK5zcdCxXWvKBS0UMp3a2l/EGsBGluT6VvVuzwdveUb9r9onmBYO5imyUIPMaGFX/a5KZwuI9JZHUvYuWvBUcClL3AA/+mr/GTpxSr83WANsoFtvo7v0iMvI7xiq3WueSG9tFbuNcsM3hMG7TMAlIqFKLhBA7ZWsDA= ; Message-ID: <20050102044653.71958.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 20:46:53 PST Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:46:53 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Recommendation??? To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41D76189.6010904@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:46:59 -0000 Swanson's Heating. David is as honest as they come. Leave a message on his machine and he'll call you back. "B.J. Bergee" wrote:Sadly, I fear, my old electric furnace needs some TLC. I would appreciate any recommendations for a repairman, preferably local, or at least nearby. Thanks a heap. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sat Jan 1 21:31:56 2005 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j025VunY007814 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20050102053149012003oidge>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 05:31:49 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Recommendation??? Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:31:51 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41D76189.6010904@jps.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:31:56 -0000 Swanson or layyr Miller -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of B.J. Bergee Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 6:51 PM To: Grove Net Subject: [Grovenet] Recommendation??? Sadly, I fear, my old electric furnace needs some TLC. I would appreciate any recommendations for a repairman, preferably local, or at least nearby. Thanks a heap. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sat Jan 1 21:49:00 2005 Received: from web53910.mail.yahoo.com (web53910.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.220]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j025mxVA010960 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 76943 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 05:48:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=l9T2LNaEPXnP0FkLIBS5xGG1u39nK/FHFDEH2DNquZ1XJRNsttd6h7vDf/rbpLpL+DeZEau2CWUsA1jr9Jx2AxSvZF6atBVzFLwa9dZ854JOYzICST587GkBH3ysm5eCf4dgzsZvnI+55WjQ/3AqAEkBOkONhNIFqJR2O1C/rSM= ; Message-ID: <20050102054854.76941.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:48:54 PST Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:48:54 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <1104633987.11725.1.camel@gimli> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:49:01 -0000 Thanks Chris! I downloaded GIMP, and I have Firefox and Open Office already and they are just great! I have two to recommend: Roboform will keep track of passwords for all the sites that require them. In fact, it will also generate passwords, too. Once you sit down and encounter your first password protected site, Roboform will ask you for the password to Roboform. You fill it in, and from there it will fill in all registered passwords for all your sites. It's a great convenience, and it's also secure. Here's the site: http://www.roboform.com/ Another I use a lot is Auction Sentry. It will place a bid for you on Ebay in the case you aren't sitting at your computer. For instance, I can find something I'd like to bid on, enter the item number into Auction Sentry, select an amount I'm willing to pay, and then set a time for the bid to be placed (for me, usually 8 seconds before the auction ends). It's not free, although you can try it for free. You pay $9.99/year if you like it. You can get it here: http://www.auction-sentry.com/ Anyone else have any favorites? Chris Genly wrote: Happy new year everyone. I thought I'd start the new year on grovenet by letting people know about various open source programs I find really useful. Since they are open source, they are free! Most of these projects will run on Mac, Linux and Windows. I really like programs which run on many different operating systems. It allows you to choose the operating system you like most, and still be able to work with others, no matter what operating system they choose. Open office For windows, linux and Mac - http://www.openoffice.org Open office is a high quality open source word processor, spread sheet and presentation office suite. It is able to read and write Microsoft format documents. GIMP - GNU image manipulation program. Mac - http://www.macgimp.org/ Windows - http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/ Linux - http://www.gimp.org This is a really powerful image manipulation program. You can convert image formats, change brightness and contrast, scale image size, crop and a whole lot more. Linspire - Linux for non-techies Linux - http://linspire.com/ Linspire is a GNU/Linux operating system with an inexpensive subscription download service to provide access to a large library of linux software. The library is called Click-N-Run. Choose a program from the library, click on the install link and the program will be downloaded and installed automatically. Once paid for, the download service can be used on all the machines in your house. Many of the inexpenive computers (sub $500 and sub $300) use Linspire because there is no cost to the manufacturer to install it. Firefox - Web browser Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org A standards compliant web browser with tabbed windows, and pop up blocking. Many people I know really like this browser. Thunderbird - Mail program Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org An excellent standards compliant email program with spam filtering, and html mail. This is from the same project that made the Firefox web browser. TightVNC - Computer remote control program. Linux, Windows - http://tightvnc.com If you have ever tried to help someone over the phone with a computer problem, you'll appreciate how hard it can be. TightVNC will let you see the remote computers screen, and let you use your local keyboard and mouse to control it. Chess game Windows and linux - http://www.tim-mann.org/xboard.html If you like to play chess, this is a free way to play against your computer. NIST Time Mac, Windows - http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/service/its.htm Not needed if you have Mac OS X. Linux - Use ntpd instead. Set your computer's time using the National Institue of Standards and Technology atomic clock. If you are running Linux, use ntpd. ---- This is not an open source project. I included it for its coolness. Sipphone http://www.siphone.com If you have broadband internet, this is a cool way to make phone calls. There are two ways to do this. You can use sipphone windows software to make phone calls from your computer, or you can use a sipphone adapter to use your regular phone. Calling another sip phone is free. For long distance, you have to buy sip minutes. Anywhere in the US is two cents a minute. We will be calling greece at eight cents a minute. Chris _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Sat Jan 1 22:08:24 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0268NUF014437 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:08:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102060819.GNCV27681.out007.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:08:19 -0600 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:08:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Best Pictures of 2004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <17957-41D64AA7-2293@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:08:19 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:08:24 -0000 Worked outside, watched some TV, read, turned the TV on at 11:55, had some sparking cider, turned the TV off, finished the book, went to bed. A wild time here. David On Friday, December 31, 2004, at 11:00 PM, alan wrote: > this is what an OleHoss did on New Years Eve ... 2005 .. > > 20 years ago on Jan 25th 1985 is when I was hit by a drunk driver in a > cross-walk near the Morro Bay Police Station House where I worked... > However, ya got to look on the bright side... at least I'm still around > to tell another OleHoss in Hosstyle ... > > ~alan~ wordsmith ~ Hoss > > http://community-2.webtv.net/GreenMtn_TreeFarm/BestPicturesof2004/ > > > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/GreenMtn_TreeFarm/BestPicturesof2004/ > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Sat Jan 1 22:08:49 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0268mFU014498 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102060848.LJDU8290.out004.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:08:48 -0600 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:08:46 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Congrats Bob B! End the year on the tube! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050101154117.86694.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:08:47 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:08:49 -0000 What is the "rest of the story"? David On Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 07:41 AM, -rlo wrote: > > Don't know if anyone else saw him but our famous/infamous attorney was > on the tube for 15 seconds to close out the new year! > > > > Congratulations on your discovery Mr. Browning! I am happy for YOU! :) > +rlo > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sat Jan 1 22:29:56 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j026TuLu018292 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102062955.GPPR27681.out007.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:29:55 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:28:49 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20050102054854.76941.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050102054854.76941.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:29:55 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:29:56 -0000 Reminds me of a curious exchange recently on Brickboard (online self-help forum for those addicted to old Volvos). Seems someone was bidding on a part on Ebay and lost to someone else he recognized as another Brickboarder, and sent a scathing email about "snipping." That (using a service like Auction Sentry) was a new one on me. Of course, he didn't get any sympathy from other Brickboarders, who had to patiently explain the nature of auctions to him. At any rate, it's interesting how new technology spawns other technology: someone invents online auctions and someone else comes along and invents automatic online auction bidding! I suppose Ebay will respond by letting you specify when you want your bid to be placed, a natural evolution I suppose. As far as open source software is concerned, the whole interactive display of law enforcement data I constructed at http://www.ocjc.state.or.us/CrimeData/ uses the open-source combination of JpGraph, PHP, Apache, MySQL, and UofMinn's Mapserver. At home of course I use SuSE Linux with all of the programs Chris mentioned and Audacity (cross-platform) to edit sound files and K3B to burn them to CD's, Quanta to write HTML files and KBear to transfer them, and so on. On Saturday 01 January 2005 21:48, Eric Canon wrote: ... > Another I use a lot is Auction Sentry. It will place a bid for you on Ebay > in the case you aren't sitting at your computer. For instance, I can find > something I'd like to bid on, enter the item number into Auction Sentry, > select an amount I'm willing to pay, and then set a time for the bid to be > placed (for me, usually 8 seconds before the auction ends). It's not free, > although you can try it for free. You pay $9.99/year if you like it. You > can get it here: > > http://www.auction-sentry.com/ > > Anyone else have any favorites? ... ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sat Jan 1 22:47:32 2005 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55] (may be forged)) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j026lWl5021152 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005010206461101100g759ue>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 06:46:11 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Open source software Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:47:32 -0000 This place migth be great for both problems of the brickboard. an Oregon company that has auctions that run until the bidders give in, and it was started for autos. http://www.onlineauction.com/ -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Meredith Bliss Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 10:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software Reminds me of a curious exchange recently on Brickboard From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 1 23:14:17 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j027EG6k025856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33BC29504 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:14:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Open source software Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:13:55 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000101c4f09a$a3ceb7c0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j027EG6k025856 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 07:14:17 -0000 E-bay's recommendation is still the best, I think. That is, do your research, decide the maximum you want to pay, and enter that as your top bid. E-bay automatically increments your bid as needed to stay 'in front' unless someone else wants to pay more than your limit. So no one ever knows what your top price is unless it's exceeded and you don't have to worry about being around at the close. Sure, at times I'll watch an auction at the close and try inputting a last-second bid just for fun, but I am convinced that is also the best way to over-pay. Like a live auction, it becomes a matter of "wanting to win" and so the adrenalin drives the urge to bid a "little more" and "beat" the other guy. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Meredith Bliss Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 10:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software Reminds me of a curious exchange recently on Brickboard (online self-help forum for those addicted to old Volvos). Seems someone was bidding on a part on Ebay and lost to someone else he recognized as another Brickboarder, and sent a scathing email about "snipping." That (using a service like Auction Sentry) was a new one on me. Of course, he didn't get any sympathy from other Brickboarders, who had to patiently explain the nature of auctions to him. At any rate, it's interesting how new technology spawns other technology: someone invents online auctions and someone else comes along and invents automatic online auction bidding! I suppose Ebay will respond by letting you specify when you want your bid to be placed, a natural evolution I suppose. As far as open source software is concerned, the whole interactive display of law enforcement data I constructed at http://www.ocjc.state.or.us/CrimeData/ uses the open-source combination of JpGraph, PHP, Apache, MySQL, and UofMinn's Mapserver. At home of course I use SuSE Linux with all of the programs Chris mentioned and Audacity (cross-platform) to edit sound files and K3B to burn them to CD's, Quanta to write HTML files and KBear to transfer them, and so on. On Saturday 01 January 2005 21:48, Eric Canon wrote: ... > Another I use a lot is Auction Sentry. It will place a bid for you on > Ebay in the case you aren't sitting at your computer. For instance, I > can find something I'd like to bid on, enter the item number into > Auction Sentry, select an amount I'm willing to pay, and then set a > time for the bid to be placed (for me, usually 8 seconds before the > auction ends). It's not free, although you can try it for free. You > pay $9.99/year if you like it. You can get it here: > > http://www.auction-sentry.com/ > > Anyone else have any favorites? ... ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smith@easystreet.com Sun Jan 2 08:43:40 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02Ghdjm028322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:43:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smith@easystreet.com) Received: from hpp5450 (69-30-98-104.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.104]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F14294E3; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:43:36 -0800 (PST) From: "smith" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:41:21 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000101c4f09a$a3ceb7c0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] ebay bidding and more X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:43:40 -0000 I don't buy a whole lot on ebay- but when I do- I use a company called Phantombidder.com - I put in my highest bid and how many seconds before the auction ends that I want it to bid- (I use the 3-second option). I find if I use the ebay bidding platform, that people will "up the bid" in small increments just to see if they are out-bid. As a seller- I LIKE that! As a bidder, I do not. And, again, I leave it to the fates- and if someone outbids me- then it was meant to be! It is Sunday morning, and time for me to get listing the next batch of items for ebay. My goal is to pay for my son's schooling at Oak Tree School each month from what I sell on ebay. Usually, I succeed. Beth Genly, from this list is helping to teach my kid to read at Oak Tree School. I think she is doing a swell job....and when I told my husband that the science fiction author, James Blish's daughter is teaching Arlo to read- he was pretty amazed! Barb From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Jan 2 08:53:59 2005 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02GrxhM030514 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id D2083D635 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA09747; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRwvhZuANLBZAntP5cqsK6fiztf/QIVAITpwlHHARefko7RoQdYRl8IbYeZ From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:53:53 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <2771-41D82721-627@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-32203-280 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Country Life - Country and Rural Living, Photos, Livestock, Gardening, Farming, Humor, Recipes X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-32203-280 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I was going through files that I can save to sorta clean out some of them, ran across one I had forgotten about, and thought maybe someone might like to take a look . This is a last minuet resolution.. so to speak! ~alan~ last but not the least ~ Hoss --WebTV-Mail-32203-280 X-URL-Title: Country Life - Country and Rural Living, Photos, Livestock, Gardening, Farming, Humor, Recipes Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.kountrylife.com/index.htm --WebTV-Mail-32203-280-- From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 09:46:24 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02HkOlL041235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:46:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7542429517 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:46:02 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000301c4f0f2$f1f25940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j02HkOlL041235 Subject: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:46:24 -0000 Ha! Who was it that observed that the selling price at an auction is set by the *second* highest bidder? . I'm a 'Blish' fan myself. I am learning never to be amazed at the amazing people I meet. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: smith [mailto:smith@easystreet.com] Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:41 AM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: ebay bidding and more I don't buy a whole lot on ebay- but when I do- I use a company called Phantombidder.com - I put in my highest bid and how many seconds before the auction ends that I want it to bid- (I use the 3-second option). I find if I use the ebay bidding platform, that people will "up the bid" in small increments just to see if they are out-bid. As a seller- I LIKE that! As a bidder, I do not. And, again, I leave it to the fates- and if someone outbids me- then it was meant to be! It is Sunday morning, and time for me to get listing the next batch of items for ebay. My goal is to pay for my son's schooling at Oak Tree School each month from what I sell on ebay. Usually, I succeed. Beth Genly, from this list is helping to teach my kid to read at Oak Tree School. I think she is doing a swell job....and when I told my husband that the science fiction author, James Blish's daughter is teaching Arlo to read- he was pretty amazed! Barb From chgenly@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 09:55:35 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02HtY4K043214 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:55:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102175533.OWBB8290.out004.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:55:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software From: Chris Genly To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> References: <20050102054854.76941.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 09:55:32 -0800 Message-Id: <1104688532.31037.3.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:55:33 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:55:35 -0000 I had no idea you were a GNU/Linux user, Bud! Sounds like a KDE user too. And you build PHP apps. You are much more of a techie than I realized. Nice! On Sat, 2005-01-01 at 22:28 -0800, Meredith Bliss wrote: > As far as open source software is concerned, the whole interactive display of > law enforcement data I constructed at http://www.ocjc.state.or.us/CrimeData/ > uses the open-source combination of JpGraph, PHP, Apache, MySQL, and > UofMinn's Mapserver. > > At home of course I use SuSE Linux with all of the programs Chris mentioned > and Audacity (cross-platform) to edit sound files and K3B to burn them to > CD's, Quanta to write HTML files and KBear to transfer them, and so on. From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 2 10:27:31 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02IRUWC052407 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102182725.VEVK28388.out014.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:27:25 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:26:14 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20050102054854.76941.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> <200501012228.49752.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> <1104688532.31037.3.camel@gimli> In-Reply-To: <1104688532.31037.3.camel@gimli> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501021026.14315.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:27:22 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:27:32 -0000 A pretty poor one, I'm afraid. I only learn enough to do what I need to do ... and then promptly forget it all. On Sunday 02 January 2005 09:55, Chris Genly wrote: > I had no idea you were a GNU/Linux user, Bud! Sounds like a KDE user > too. And you build PHP apps. You are much more of a techie than I > realized. Nice! > > On Sat, 2005-01-01 at 22:28 -0800, Meredith Bliss wrote: > > As far as open source software is concerned, the whole interactive > > display of law enforcement data I constructed at > > http://www.ocjc.state.or.us/CrimeData/ uses the open-source combination > > of JpGraph, PHP, Apache, MySQL, and UofMinn's Mapserver. > > > > At home of course I use SuSE Linux with all of the programs Chris > > mentioned and Audacity (cross-platform) to edit sound files and K3B to > > burn them to CD's, Quanta to write HTML files and KBear to transfer them, > > and so on. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 2 10:36:45 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02Iain9054268 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102183644.QIZK28362.out005.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:36:44 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:35:35 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000301c4f0f2$f1f25940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000301c4f0f2$f1f25940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501021035.35664.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:36:44 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:36:45 -0000 Personally, I think it's best to continue to be amazed by people (and everything else, for that matter). And as for bidding, even with an online auction, there is still an interesting dynamic that takes place. Some people (like the whiner that I mentioned) seem to want to treat it like an online classified ad system, whereas in fact, it is still just an old-fashioned oral auction in different clothes and drawn out over several days. Early bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the buyer! One nice aspect of the long bidding process is that you get to see items you would otherwise never see unless you were camped out on Ebay all the time. Even then, you would miss things that you might not know even existed through the magic of electronic searching. On Sunday 02 January 2005 09:46, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Ha! Who was it that observed that the selling price at an auction is set > by the *second* highest bidder? . > > I'm a 'Blish' fan myself. > > I am learning never to be amazed at the amazing people I meet. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > -----Original Message----- > From: smith [mailto:smith@easystreet.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:41 AM > To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: ebay bidding and more > > > > I don't buy a whole lot on ebay- but when I do- I use a company called > Phantombidder.com - I put in my highest bid and how many seconds before the > auction ends that I want it to bid- (I use the 3-second option). I find if > I use the ebay bidding platform, that people will "up the bid" in small > increments just to see if they are out-bid. As a seller- I LIKE that! As a > bidder, I do not. And, again, I leave it to the fates- and if someone > outbids me- then it was meant to be! It is Sunday morning, and time for me > to get listing the next batch of items for ebay. My goal is to pay for my > son's schooling at Oak Tree School each month from what I sell on ebay. > Usually, I succeed. Beth Genly, from this list is helping to teach my kid > to read at Oak Tree > School. I think she is doing a swell job....and when I told my husband > that the science fiction author, James Blish's daughter is teaching Arlo to > read- he was pretty amazed! > Barb > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 2 11:00:43 2005 Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02J0h8R059429 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102190039.REHM4717.out011.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:00:39 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: grovenet@rdrop.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:59:27 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501021059.27700.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:00:36 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Thoughts on the New Year X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:00:44 -0000 As we leave the old year behind us, with it's opportunities and disappointments, and move on into the new year, let's take an honest look at our mistakes and our blind spots, and make a sincere effort to turn around and mindfully go in the right direction. This is true repentance. As for social engagement, in order to be truly partiotic, we must also be truly matriotic otherwise we become psychotic. In these difficult and dangerous times, when the masculine side is dominating and terrorizing the world, it is incumbent upon us to make every effort to promote peaceful and balanced solutions, and find ways to control our destructive tendencies. Peace of course begins at home with each one of us, and our effort is to keep it alive through both easy and trying times. We can do this by being careful to balance both the *patri* and *matri* within ourselves and be both father and mother to the world.... --Sojun Mel Weitsman Another year, many new opportunities and possibilities. ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From ggsteele@gte.net Sun Jan 2 11:06:32 2005 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02J6WEC060464 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:06:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050102190631.UQEZ7873.out006.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:06:31 -0600 Message-ID: <000901c4f0fe$2ce94120$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <200501021059.27700.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Thoughts on the New Year Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:06:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:06:30 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:06:33 -0000 Nice -- Thanks, Bud. :-) Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Meredith Bliss=20 To: grovenet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Thoughts on the New Year As we leave the old year behind us, with it's opportunities and=20 disappointments, and move on into the new year, let's take an honest = look at=20 our mistakes and our blind spots, and make a sincere effort to turn = around=20 and mindfully go in the right direction. This is true repentance. As for social engagement, in order to be truly partiotic, we must also = be=20 truly matriotic otherwise we become psychotic. In these difficult and=20 dangerous times, when the masculine side is dominating and terrorizing = the=20 world, it is incumbent upon us to make every effort to promote = peaceful and=20 balanced solutions, and find ways to control our destructive = tendencies.=20 Peace of course begins at home with each one of us, and our effort is = to keep=20 it alive through both easy and trying times. We can do this by being = careful=20 to balance both the *patri* and *matri* within ourselves and be both = father=20 and mother to the world.... --Sojun Mel Weitsman Another year, many new opportunities and possibilities. =20 ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking=20 only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sun Jan 2 11:51:07 2005 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02Jp6n8068700 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20050102195045012003p81be>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:50:45 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:50:47 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200501021035.35664.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Grovenet] Trivia X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:51:08 -0000 Significance of the writer, J. Quinn Thornton From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Jan 2 12:42:12 2005 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02KgCYC078747 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 042A2D63D for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id MAA23117; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:42:01 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAxyzMJbCkm5HA2QR/BD435BLZ4tsCFQCpOOZ9BAXAP63gNGZ1yUt/qiAQMw== From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:42:01 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Thoughts on the New Year Message-ID: <12957-41D85C99-41@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Meredith Bliss 's message of Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:59:27 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j02KgCYC078747 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:42:12 -0000 Bud... me thinks you better change your sign of section when you post thoughts like this, and speaking for just an OleHoss of course ... I don't think anyone could, or would if even try to say it any better.. ~alan~ happy to be able to say anything at all ~ Hoss <---------- Mr. Bliss wrote... As we leave the old year behind us, with it's opportunities and disappointments, and move on into the new year, let's take an honest look at our mistakes and our blind spots, and make a sincere effort to turn around and mindfully go in the right direction. This is true repentance. As for social engagement, in order to be truly patriotic, we must also be truly matriotic otherwise we become psychotic. In these difficult and dangerous times, when the masculine side is dominating and terrorizing the world, it is incumbent upon us to make every effort to promote peaceful and balanced solutions, and find ways to control our destructive tendencies. Peace of course begins at home with each one of us, and our effort is to keep it alive through both easy and trying times. We can do this by being careful to balance both the *patri* and *matri* within ourselves and be both father and mother to the world....                 --Sojun Mel Weitsman Another year, many new opportunities and possibilities. ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 13:26:30 2005 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j02LQTx4087630 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 58122 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 21:26:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=q8UsIRfSf4bvi/K5NLzMm9bB1gXQ1gHSv6LLKI9Xen82TEyhauCG/LMmMypjz8WvwRHXwdcOmHOYV+RrYNxxvHaWOuef3pUF79dRNLWIttjm+8/JCTSaEoNeIwChbMxiCrHQJ2kx57Q3DokVMTerCb+b8ZL1hkhBeA3v1nfWBxk= ; Message-ID: <20050102212624.58120.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 13:26:24 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:26:24 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <200501021035.35664.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:26:30 -0000 Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you select your top price long before the end. There is no emotional pull to bid above the figure you rationally select before the climax (the end of the auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be another coming along real soon. Meredith Bliss wrote: Early bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the buyer! From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 13:34:20 2005 Received: from web11401.mail.yahoo.com (web11401.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.231]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j02LYKwf089209 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 24393 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 21:34:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cyQL7J1qBhNPlvM442qxgMt9pNkyJ/BKIcd8S4I6YOLou8RwqRbgvTs25Tp/SuQm2EyBqGaOV7cPChqXxWQUG1hpdrh5ZBBgW6GoCeWnbRaUpYWkTzdG/EoQHfxUc3J/8EmRVFwIiAkGN+lW0ZQt4N4xuIJFaY/ZcBvxw4VNvMw= ; Message-ID: <20050102213419.24391.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.165.27] by web11401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 13:34:19 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050102212624.58120.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] ebay bidding and more X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:34:20 -0000 but... knowing not much about eBay, is it not true that as long as there has been no bid placed can't the seller pull the item??? that appears to be the way it goes but I certainly do not know, does any one know what those rules are (occasional buyer, never a seller) Vickie --- Eric Canon wrote: > Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the > price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute > bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have > no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win > the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or > with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you > select your top price long before the end. There is > no emotional pull to bid above the figure you > rationally select before the climax (the end of the > auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be > another coming along real soon. > > Meredith Bliss wrote: Early > bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb > mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the > buyer! > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From smith@easystreet.com Sun Jan 2 13:45:43 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02Ljg0j091745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:45:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smith@easystreet.com) Received: from hpp5450 (69-30-98-104.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.104]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478BD294E3 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:45:37 -0800 (PST) From: "smith" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:43:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050102213419.24391.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Subject: [Grovenet] ebay rules X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:45:43 -0000 Well, ebay sellers are not "supposed" to pull the items they have for sale. But, some do. They may have gotten an offer via email and pulled the item to sell offline to avoid the final sales fee that ebay charges. Get caught by ebay and you are in big trouble! If you think that has happened- you can contact the seller and ask if the item is still for sale...sometimes things DO happen---a kid knocks over a vase for sale and breaks it, or? The ebay world is quite interesting! Barb From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 13:45:47 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j02LjkaY091774 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:45:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 18380 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 21:45:40 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sM4c7YpjM0TsXKLMizG9N00CGiZfZhMIz0O537oziA3Rwhj4eXE3FgFxHGXg77bwuSwZpl/5fwEI4PQ4nHBeOEIPcSyd8NHJhCKnKENZdrv/0Rk+tIV1K8ueB0pK0mfUOYqRgrh/yWRryMZvvbq18QZZ9BjN6bl/Y7nOpKp+4LA= ; Message-ID: <20050102214540.18378.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 13:45:40 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:45:40 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ebay bidding and more To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050102213419.24391.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:45:47 -0000 A seller on ebay can set a minimum price. A seller can also establish a reserve, where the price starts below what the seller will sell for. And most sellers want to sell the item. But, as a seller, you do need to be careful that you don't get stuck shipping off something for way less than it's worth. I believe ebays rules allow a seller to withdraw an item for any reason, but it rarely happens from my experience. Barb would know more about this, as she is a pro. She will sell your item for a commission. She knows the best way to list it, when to list it, how to describe it, and she usually knows what it ultimately should be worth. If I had an item I didn't know a lot about, in terms of what it is worth, I'd take it to Barb. Vickie Madeoneup wrote: but... knowing not much about eBay, is it not true that as long as there has been no bid placed can't the seller pull the item??? that appears to be the way it goes but I certainly do not know, does any one know what those rules are (occasional buyer, never a seller) Vickie --- Eric Canon wrote: > Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the > price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute > bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have > no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win > the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or > with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you > select your top price long before the end. There is > no emotional pull to bid above the figure you > rationally select before the climax (the end of the > auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be > another coming along real soon. > > Meredith Bliss wrote: Early > bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb > mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the > buyer! > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 14:08:34 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02M8XUw095949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D4DB003 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:08:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:08:10 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f117$9238bbf0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050102212624.58120.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j02M8XUw095949 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:08:35 -0000 So, tell me. How is it different to have a bunch of people on-line bidding against each other and having a bunch of auction machines on-line all bidding against each other during the last few seconds of an auction? Except for the last-minute-jump-on-the-action thing, the E-bay automatic bidding is exactly the same as the bidding machines as far as I can see. What looks like "poke-poke" bidding by several people is simply one person submitting bids manually and the e-bay machine reporting that someone else is already ready to pay a little more. The e-bay machine does that by incrementing the bid to the minimum above the last bid, NOT by jumping the price to what the bidder is willing to pay. I think the bidding machines (or simply being on the site at the close of an auction) were an advantage when no one had them. Few bidders arranged to be around at the close, so one could make a bid and get the item before the other bidders noticed. But with many bidders using automatic bidding software, it's just moved the original bidding action done over a period of time by humans into the last few seconds done by machines. One other point about the e-bay bidding machine. As far as I can tell, if I put in a bid limit on e-bay that is above the bid input by an external machine, it doesn't matter how close the external machine makes the last bid, I'll get the item. That's because e-bay doesn't close the auction until the last bid submitted is checked against the e-bay bids already working and if there's a higher bid available through an e-bay bidder the e-bay machine will use that as the closing price and, with the time expired, "slam the door" on any further inputs from external machines. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you select your top price long before the end. There is no emotional pull to bid above the figure you rationally select before the climax (the end of the auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be another coming along real soon. Meredith Bliss wrote: Early bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the buyer! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 14:12:18 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02MCIKe096696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0E9B005 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:12:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:12:00 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000601c4f118$16e85310$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050102213419.24391.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:12:18 -0000 Yes you can. You still pay a fee, but you can remove the item. The normal procedure is to establish a "reserve" price. That is, the item doesn't sell no matter how many bids are made unless the bids exceed the hidden reserve price. All the bidders can see is that the "reserve" hasn't been met and so their bids are invalid. The other approach is to simply set a higher initial bid price. Both affect the seller's fees. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Vickie Madeoneup Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:34 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] ebay bidding and more but... knowing not much about eBay, is it not true that as long as there has been no bid placed can't the seller pull the item??? that appears to be the way it goes but I certainly do not know, does any one know what those rules are (occasional buyer, never a seller) Vickie --- Eric Canon wrote: > Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the > price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute > bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have > no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win > the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or > with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you > select your top price long before the end. There is > no emotional pull to bid above the figure you > rationally select before the climax (the end of the > auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be > another coming along real soon. > > Meredith Bliss wrote: Early > bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb > mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the > buyer! > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Sun Jan 2 14:18:43 2005 Received: from mails12.megamailservers.com (mails12.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02MIgHp097933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (69-30-9-86.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.9.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails12.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j02MIHpJ016784; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:18:25 -0500 Message-ID: <002901c4f118$faf86b30$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <1104633987.11725.1.camel@gimli> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Open source software Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:18:20 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:18:43 -0000 Hi Chris, I would be interested in the image pgm but it won't work! I get an = error message " can't read file". That's for the GTK+ 2 for Windows (version 2.4.14) The GIMP file downloads OK. Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Genly=20 To: grovenet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 6:46 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Open source software Happy new year everyone. I thought I'd start the new year on grovenet by letting people know about various open source programs I find really useful. Since they are open source, they are free! Most of these projects will run on Mac, Linux and Windows. I really like programs which run on many different operating systems. It allows you to choose the operating system you like most, and still be able to work with others, no matter what operating system they choose. Open office=20 For windows, linux and Mac - http://www.openoffice.org Open office is a high quality open source word processor, spread sheet and presentation office suite. It is able to read and write Microsoft format documents. =20 GIMP - GNU image manipulation program.=20 Mac - http://www.macgimp.org/ Windows - http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/ Linux - http://www.gimp.org This is a really powerful image manipulation program. You can = convert image formats, change brightness and contrast, scale image size, = crop and a whole lot more. Linspire - Linux for non-techies Linux - http://linspire.com/ Linspire is a GNU/Linux operating system with an inexpensive subscription download service to provide access to a large library of linux software. The library is called Click-N-Run. Choose a =20 program from the library, click on the install link and the=20 program will be downloaded and installed automatically. Once=20 paid for, the download service can be used on all the machines=20 in your house. Many of the inexpenive computers (sub $500 and sub $300) use = Linspire=20 because there is no cost to the manufacturer to install it. Firefox - Web browser Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org A standards compliant web browser with tabbed windows, and pop up blocking. Many people I know really like this browser. Thunderbird - Mail program Windows, Mac, Linux - http://mozilla.org An excellent standards compliant email program with spam filtering, and html mail. This is from the same project that made the Firefox web browser. TightVNC - Computer remote control program. Linux, Windows - http://tightvnc.com If you have ever tried to help someone over the phone with a=20 computer problem, you'll appreciate how hard it can be. TightVNC will let you see the remote computers screen, and let you use your local keyboard and mouse to control it. Chess game Windows and linux - http://www.tim-mann.org/xboard.html If you like to play chess, this is a free way to play against your computer. NIST Time=20 Mac, Windows - http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/service/its.htm Not needed if you have Mac OS X. Linux - Use ntpd instead. Set your computer's time using the National Institue of Standards = and Technology atomic clock. If you are running Linux, use ntpd. ---- This is not an open source project. I included it for its coolness. Sipphone http://www.siphone.com =20 If you have broadband internet, this is a cool way to make phone calls. There are two ways to do this. You can use sipphone windows software to make phone calls from your computer, or you can use a sipphone adapter to use your regular phone. Calling another sip phone is free. For long distance, you have to buy sip minutes. Anywhere in the US is two cents a minute. We will be calling greece at eight cents a minute. Chris _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 14:34:37 2005 Received: from web53906.mail.yahoo.com (web53906.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.216]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j02MYagq001072 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 89070 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 22:34:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=nORXgrWvBk8o2njrTQAmlHY0KKbfCEvN4+SWgKhysghbUQMVrw/J02ofRTVuKJwYtsVLYXdVONlvDfpiAFc/sqri03nuQYWgC/IsWdSCP3rTBXSy3+1kioIssoYf6E26aIhUofWLhhYfDdE96iOJZNJYXso5Ae0dxdfsky+HOJE= ; Message-ID: <20050102223428.89068.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:34:27 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:34:27 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000001c4f117$9238bbf0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:34:37 -0000 Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: So, tell me. How is it different to have a bunch of people on-line bidding against each other and having a bunch of auction machines on-line all bidding against each other during the last few seconds of an auction? With pleasure. Some of the "poke poke" folks arrive at the end. If I bid with five minutes to go, they have the opportunity to poke poke up and up and out bid me. With eight or three seconds to go, it's too late. No time for poke poke. Likewise, the same thing happens over the entire time frame of the auction. It's the poke poke bidders who, by hanging around and cautiously putting only a toe in the water, over and over, drive the price up. Every bid moves the price up. The fewer the bids, the less that happens. For sure, as a buyer, I want to be in the right place at the right time. I'm actively looking for a low price. The poke poke bidder can get a low price only if no one else bids, which happens of it's an item no one else is interested in. But if it's something others would like to have, the chances of getting a low price diminish. If you come in and, with four days to go, bid your prudent bid, you will invite the poke pokers to nibble away at you. If, on the other hand, you bid your prudent bid at the last minute, maybe the poke poke bidder is the leader after only one little poke poke. You win the auction, and score a bargain, because the poke poke has only the bid minimum on the board. There is no time for him to poke poke at the price at that point. Times up. I can see how inadequate my explanation is, Ron. Maybe Barb can do better. My rule: always bid at the very last second. Your odds of getting a better price are much better. Once it's time is up it's over. No more chances. Except for the last-minute-jump-on-the-action thing, the E-bay automatic bidding is exactly the same as the bidding machines as far as I can see. What looks like "poke-poke" bidding by several people is simply one person submitting bids manually and the e-bay machine reporting that someone else is already ready to pay a little more. The e-bay machine does that by incrementing the bid to the minimum above the last bid, NOT by jumping the price to what the bidder is willing to pay. I think the bidding machines (or simply being on the site at the close of an auction) were an advantage when no one had them. Few bidders arranged to be around at the close, so one could make a bid and get the item before the other bidders noticed. But with many bidders using automatic bidding software, it's just moved the original bidding action done over a period of time by humans into the last few seconds done by machines. True. Not every one has 'em. Poke poke bidders don't. Neither do you it would seem. One other point about the e-bay bidding machine. As far as I can tell, if I put in a bid limit on e-bay that is above the bid input by an external machine, it doesn't matter how close the external machine makes the last bid, I'll get the item. That's because e-bay doesn't close the auction until the last bid submitted is checked against the e-bay bids already working and if there's a higher bid available through an e-bay bidder the e-bay machine will use that as the closing price and, with the time expired, "slam the door" on any further inputs from external machines. This is true, too, so you let the item go because the price was too high. We don't win 'em all. It's a predators game. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you select your top price long before the end. There is no emotional pull to bid above the figure you rationally select before the climax (the end of the auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be another coming along real soon. Meredith Bliss wrote: Early bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the buyer! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sun Jan 2 15:16:20 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j02NGKwQ008614 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005010223082601300cernle>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:08:26 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:08:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050102223428.89068.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:16:20 -0000 But there is a price that you think is the most you'd spend. This is the same whether you bid at the beginning or end. The other guy who will pay more will get the item with or without the software. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:34 PM One other point about the e-bay bidding machine. As far as I can tell, if I put in a bid limit on e-bay that is above the bid input by an external machine, it doesn't matter how close the external machine makes the last bid, I'll get the item. That's because e-bay doesn't close the auction until the last bid submitted is checked against the e-bay bids already working and if there's a higher bid available through an e-bay bidder the e-bay machine will use that as the closing price and, with the time expired, "slam the door" on any further inputs from external machines. This is true, too, so you let the item go because the price was too high. We don't win 'em all. It's a predators game. Ron D'Eau Claire http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem@pacificu.edu Sun Jan 2 16:32:03 2005 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030W2Fp024022 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:32:02 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Thread-Index: AcTxIRkX/EiG96Q5RfuWzL68CyumjwACqOkA From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j030W2Fp024022 Subject: [Grovenet] School paper X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:32:03 -0000 For those of you who have been following this thread, I would like to update matters. Jack Musser, the superintendent, has consulted with each member of the school board as well as the students in the high school's journalism class in order to provide background context and review the district's policies and administrative regulations. After his consultations with board members, superintendent Musser has decided to move forward along these lines: [a] ads from the groups in question can reappear in the January issue of the Viking Log; [b] he will be meeting this week with Molly Franks of PFLAG for further discussion; [c] we will initiate a board review of the policies in question which will take place at some future board meeting[s]. Throughout the consultations and Jack's meeting with the students, concern for the well-being of students was foremost. We believe that we will reach a fruitful accommodation of the various interests, including our students' well-being, our concerns for best educational practices, and the ready availability of pertinent resource information for students and their families. In light of this ongoing process, the issue will not appear on the Jan. 10 school board meeting agenda. However, be assured that the policy will be under review for one or more future board meetings. Public input at that time is most welcome. Thanks to all who have been in touch with me or my board colleagues on this matter. With best wishes to all for a wonderful new year.... --Mike From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 16:37:09 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j030b8aP025101 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 58004 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2005 00:37:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=1/Oi2Hsg5TGv0ciFZ5dV2vkIiEsnry7eNGBlT7+FoFQRIKG12NUMGAdcRZkGXokhonm/BP56MXpYdnjMYUtLC3FXuqz97NEUz1yvCskqyqnTAkrTDXdFNxSDxJPn5WNmyuiHZ6bMbF8vF8rkrJUlacvyBLoaxjX8pcglciVD0/E= ; Message-ID: <20050103003703.58002.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:37:03 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:37:03 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:37:09 -0000 Say the bidding starts at $10. with four days to go. I put in a bid for $100. That's as much as I want to bid. In the next four days "pokeman" decides he wants to bid on the item. So he bids $11., then $12, and so on, until he bids $75. That's his top. I win the item for $76. (one dollar more than pokeman because the bid goes up by one dollar increments). Same item, but this time I hold my bid until 8 seconds prior to the end. Pokeman bids $10. No one else bids. I submit my bid for $100 and I win the item for $11. Only two people bidding? Unusual, but it happens sometimes. Or maybe you have ten people bidding. The same thing plays out. It isn't always like that, but it's an auction. You play the odds. It's smarter to bid at the end. Steven wrote: But there is a price that you think is the most you'd spend. This is the same whether you bid at the beginning or end. The other guy who will pay more will get the item with or without the software. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:34 PM One other point about the e-bay bidding machine. As far as I can tell, if I put in a bid limit on e-bay that is above the bid input by an external machine, it doesn't matter how close the external machine makes the last bid, I'll get the item. That's because e-bay doesn't close the auction until the last bid submitted is checked against the e-bay bids already working and if there's a higher bid available through an e-bay bidder the e-bay machine will use that as the closing price and, with the time expired, "slam the door" on any further inputs from external machines. This is true, too, so you let the item go because the price was too high. We don't win 'em all. It's a predators game. Ron D'Eau Claire http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 16:39:33 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030dWFc025553 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:39:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103003931.SFIS8290.out004.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:39:31 -0600 Message-ID: <004b01c4f1f6$152e2110$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "BOB ALLNUTT" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:41:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:39:30 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:39:33 -0000 Honest information and calm discussion is always a good thing. Thanks for the update, it sounds encouraging. Katie (even though following the thread has been tangential it is still good to know) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:32 PM Subject: [Grovenet] School paper > For those of you who have been following this thread, I would like to > update matters. Jack Musser, the superintendent, has consulted with > each member of the school board as well as the students in the high > school's journalism class in order to provide background context and > review the district's policies and administrative regulations. After > his consultations with board members, superintendent Musser has decided > to move forward along these lines: [a] ads from the groups in question > can reappear in the January issue of the Viking Log; [b] he will be > meeting this week with Molly Franks of PFLAG for further discussion; [c] > we will initiate a board review of the policies in question which will > take place at some future board meeting[s]. Throughout the > consultations and Jack's meeting with the students, concern for the > well-being of students was foremost. We believe that we will reach a > fruitful accommodation of the various interests, including our students' > well-being, our concerns for best educational practices, and the ready > availability of pertinent resource information for students and their > families. In light of this ongoing process, the issue will not appear > on the Jan. 10 school board meeting agenda. However, be assured that > the policy will be under review for one or more future board meetings. > Public input at that time is most welcome. > > Thanks to all who have been in touch with me or my board colleagues on > this matter. > > With best wishes to all for a wonderful new year.... > > --Mike > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ebgenly@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 16:43:53 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030hq2p026458 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103004352.YKBM28388.out014.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:43:52 -0600 Message-ID: <41D89543.7090407@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:43:47 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School paper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:43:51 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:43:53 -0000 Mike, Thank you for your (and the rest of the Board's) thoughtful re-consideration of this matter. And thanks for letting us know publicly that it will not be on the agenda for Jan 10th -- Otherwise I would have been there! Beth Steele, Mike wrote: >For those of you who have been following this thread, I would like to >update matters. Jack Musser, the superintendent, has consulted with >each member of the school board as well as the students in the high >school's journalism class in order to provide background context and >review the district's policies and administrative regulations. After >his consultations with board members, superintendent Musser has decided >to move forward along these lines: [a] ads from the groups in question >can reappear in the January issue of the Viking Log; [b] he will be >meeting this week with Molly Franks of PFLAG for further discussion; [c] >we will initiate a board review of the policies in question which will >take place at some future board meeting[s]. Throughout the >consultations and Jack's meeting with the students, concern for the >well-being of students was foremost. We believe that we will reach a >fruitful accommodation of the various interests, including our students' >well-being, our concerns for best educational practices, and the ready >availability of pertinent resource information for students and their >families. In light of this ongoing process, the issue will not appear >on the Jan. 10 school board meeting agenda. However, be assured that >the policy will be under review for one or more future board meetings. >Public input at that time is most welcome. > >Thanks to all who have been in touch with me or my board colleagues on >this matter. > >With best wishes to all for a wonderful new year.... > >--Mike > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > -- Beth Genly, RN, CNM Independent Juice Plus Distributor www.livelyhealth.com www.scienceandhealthnews.com 24-hour message line: 503-274-9100 Cell phone: 503-267-4482 Fax: 810-454-6077 Juice Plus+: not a vitamin and mineral supplement, but whole-food based nutrition. Finally, I can get my daily dose of fruits and veggies. Apples, oranges, pineapples, cranberries, peaches, papaya, and acerola cherries. Carrots, barley, parsley, beets, kale, broccoli, cabbage, oats, spinach, and tomatoes. NEW! Vineyard Blend -- especially recommended for heart and respiratory health: Blueberry, blackberry, bilberry, raspberry, cranberry, elderberry, black currant, red currant, Concord grape, with Green tea, ginger root, grape skin, and artichoke. From ebgenly@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 16:46:04 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030k4vr026960 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103004600.SWNM24714.out010.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:46:00 -0600 Message-ID: <41D895C5.5060105@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:45:57 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more References: <20050103003703.58002.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050103003703.58002.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:46:00 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:46:04 -0000 Maybe I buy boring things ... but I find it is often the case that there are only 1 or 2 bidders on the Ebay stuff I get. Beth Eric Canon wrote: >Say the bidding starts at $10. with four days to go. I put in a bid for $100. That's as much as I want to bid. In the next four days "pokeman" decides he wants to bid on the item. So he bids $11., then $12, and so on, until he bids $75. That's his top. I win the item for $76. (one dollar more than pokeman because the bid goes up by one dollar increments). > >Same item, but this time I hold my bid until 8 seconds prior to the end. Pokeman bids $10. No one else bids. I submit my bid for $100 and I win the item for $11. > >Only two people bidding? Unusual, but it happens sometimes. Or maybe you have ten people bidding. The same thing plays out. It isn't always like that, but it's an auction. You play the odds. It's smarter to bid at the end. > > > >Steven wrote: >But there is a price that you think is the most you'd spend. This is the >same whether you bid at the beginning or end. The other guy who will pay >more will get the item with or without the software. > >-----Original Message----- >From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On >Behalf Of Eric Canon >Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:34 PM >One other point about the e-bay bidding machine. As far as I can tell, if I >put in a bid limit on e-bay that is above the bid input by an external >machine, it doesn't matter how close the external machine makes the last >bid, I'll get the item. That's because e-bay doesn't close the auction until >the last bid submitted is checked against the e-bay bids already working and >if there's a higher bid available through an e-bay bidder the e-bay machine >will use that as the closing price and, with the time expired, "slam the >door" on any further inputs from external machines. > >This is true, too, so you let the item go because the price was too high. We >don't win 'em all. It's a predators game. > >Ron D'Eau Claire > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > -- Beth Genly, RN, CNM Independent Juice Plus Distributor www.livelyhealth.com www.scienceandhealthnews.com 24-hour message line: 503-274-9100 Cell phone: 503-267-4482 Fax: 810-454-6077 Juice Plus+: not a vitamin and mineral supplement, but whole-food based nutrition. Finally, I can get my daily dose of fruits and veggies. Apples, oranges, pineapples, cranberries, peaches, papaya, and acerola cherries. Carrots, barley, parsley, beets, kale, broccoli, cabbage, oats, spinach, and tomatoes. NEW! Vineyard Blend -- especially recommended for heart and respiratory health: Blueberry, blackberry, bilberry, raspberry, cranberry, elderberry, black currant, red currant, Concord grape, with Green tea, ginger root, grape skin, and artichoke. From ebgenly@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 16:48:54 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030mr0x027476 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ebgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.103] ([4.5.12.154]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103004849.WMRB28025.out001.verizon.net@[10.0.0.103]>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:48:49 -0600 Message-ID: <41D8966E.7000004@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:48:46 -0800 From: Beth Genly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more References: <000301c4f0f2$f1f25940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000301c4f0f2$f1f25940$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:48:49 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: beth@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:48:54 -0000 Barb -- Thanks for the kind words. Barb and Ron (I already told Ed) -- You might be interested to know that the World SF Convention this year awarded my father two "retro Hugos" for best science fiction of 1953. He got them for "Earthman Come Home" and "A Case of Conscience." Also, he has a glass brick with his name on it (so they tell me) in the Science Fiction Hall of Fame in Seattle. I will go up there one of these days and see for myself... Beth Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >Ha! Who was it that observed that the selling price at an auction is set by >the *second* highest bidder? . > >I'm a 'Blish' fan myself. > >I am learning never to be amazed at the amazing people I meet. > >Ron D'Eau Claire > >-----Original Message----- >From: smith [mailto:smith@easystreet.com] >Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:41 AM >To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list >Subject: ebay bidding and more > > > >I don't buy a whole lot on ebay- but when I do- I use a company called >Phantombidder.com - I put in my highest bid and how many seconds before the >auction ends that I want it to bid- (I use the 3-second option). I find if I >use the ebay bidding platform, that people will "up the bid" in small >increments just to see if they are out-bid. As a seller- I LIKE that! As a >bidder, I do not. And, again, I leave it to the fates- and if someone >outbids me- then it was meant to be! It is Sunday morning, and time for me >to get listing the next batch of items for ebay. My goal is to pay for my >son's schooling at Oak Tree School each month from what I sell on ebay. >Usually, I succeed. Beth Genly, from this list is helping to teach my kid to >read at Oak Tree >School. I think she is doing a swell job....and when I told my husband >that the science fiction author, James Blish's daughter is teaching Arlo to >read- he was pretty amazed! >Barb > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > -- Beth Genly, RN, CNM Independent Juice Plus Distributor www.livelyhealth.com www.scienceandhealthnews.com 24-hour message line: 503-274-9100 Cell phone: 503-267-4482 Fax: 810-454-6077 Juice Plus+: not a vitamin and mineral supplement, but whole-food based nutrition. Finally, I can get my daily dose of fruits and veggies. Apples, oranges, pineapples, cranberries, peaches, papaya, and acerola cherries. Carrots, barley, parsley, beets, kale, broccoli, cabbage, oats, spinach, and tomatoes. NEW! Vineyard Blend -- especially recommended for heart and respiratory health: Blueberry, blackberry, bilberry, raspberry, cranberry, elderberry, black currant, red currant, Concord grape, with Green tea, ginger root, grape skin, and artichoke. From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Jan 2 16:59:34 2005 Received: from smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j030xXpQ029672 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id B83FCD6FC for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id QAA01085; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:59:28 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAnBqhYrrtMbyotu4i9eak6n0Crf0CFANwYGMklo4+FF9V6F8ZdSKimEmf From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:59:28 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <14074-41D898F0-1270@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] watch CBS and 60 mins X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:59:34 -0000 I just watched 60 mins and it was all about goggle.kom... boy-o-boy .... talk about being amazed.. ~alan~ read and learn ~ Hoss From chgenly@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 17:11:22 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j031BLar032244 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103011120.TQZT28362.out005.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:11:20 -0600 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] watch CBS and 60 mins From: Chris Genly To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <14074-41D898F0-1270@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> References: <14074-41D898F0-1270@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:11:19 -0800 Message-Id: <1104714679.31191.43.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:11:20 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:11:22 -0000 Do you mean google.com? What did they say? On Sun, 2005-01-02 at 16:59 -0800, alan wrote: > I just watched 60 mins and it was all about goggle.kom... > boy-o-boy .... talk about being amazed.. > > ~alan~ read and learn ~ Hoss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 17:11:41 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j031BfNX032289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A14294CE for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:18 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f131$26074a40$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050103003703.58002.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:11:41 -0000 True, unless the "pokeman" as you call him listed his high bid with the e-bay machine. In that case the e-bay machine does the calculation at the last second and you still win... At $76. Like I said, when most bidding was manual, being around at the close or using a bidding program was a real advantage. That was because of the peculiar nature of e-bay auctions: a firm cut off time. Live auctions are never done that way. If the auctioneer sees movement or expressions that suggest there is a likelihood of another bid, he'll hold off on the gavel and keep calling. But with machines doing most of the bidding, machines go through the same process as people, only faster. And if it's bidding machine against bidding machine, the e-bay machine always wins if it's holding a buyer with the highest bid. They designed it that way. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:37 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Say the bidding starts at $10. with four days to go. I put in a bid for $100. That's as much as I want to bid. In the next four days "pokeman" decides he wants to bid on the item. So he bids $11., then $12, and so on, until he bids $75. That's his top. I win the item for $76. (one dollar more than pokeman because the bid goes up by one dollar increments). Same item, but this time I hold my bid until 8 seconds prior to the end. Pokeman bids $10. No one else bids. I submit my bid for $100 and I win the item for $11. Only two people bidding? Unusual, but it happens sometimes. Or maybe you have ten people bidding. The same thing plays out. It isn't always like that, but it's an auction. You play the odds. It's smarter to bid at the end. From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 17:32:21 2005 Received: from web53906.mail.yahoo.com (web53906.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.216]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j031WKib036353 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 31339 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2005 01:32:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sab6jIpJE6Dm1L0dFicgNabJv6jfOGXgPAZcgGeCwyfvIgH66D35uRQARxWpV+2uXvMaH2rjh+StTAe0Mjgm4jND2fuDYa8aaGKkoWlqxOKkeaUa8gZfxvFy/stdYDnPrc8mcdxOTdfw6orxufoHzwNPCE7FTnJQiXQqio5DEyU= ; Message-ID: <20050103013215.31337.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:32:15 PST Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:32:15 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000001c4f131$26074a40$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:32:21 -0000 You can do it that way if you wish, and in the example you cite, without help from software and without sitting at your computer, you'd win at $76. I would have won at $11. Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:True, unless the "pokeman" as you call him listed his high bid with the e-bay machine. In that case the e-bay machine does the calculation at the last second and you still win... At $76. Like I said, when most bidding was manual, being around at the close or using a bidding program was a real advantage. That was because of the peculiar nature of e-bay auctions: a firm cut off time. Live auctions are never done that way. If the auctioneer sees movement or expressions that suggest there is a likelihood of another bid, he'll hold off on the gavel and keep calling. But with machines doing most of the bidding, machines go through the same process as people, only faster. And if it's bidding machine against bidding machine, the e-bay machine always wins if it's holding a buyer with the highest bid. They designed it that way. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:37 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Say the bidding starts at $10. with four days to go. I put in a bid for $100. That's as much as I want to bid. In the next four days "pokeman" decides he wants to bid on the item. So he bids $11., then $12, and so on, until he bids $75. That's his top. I win the item for $76. (one dollar more than pokeman because the bid goes up by one dollar increments). Same item, but this time I hold my bid until 8 seconds prior to the end. Pokeman bids $10. No one else bids. I submit my bid for $100 and I win the item for $11. Only two people bidding? Unusual, but it happens sometimes. Or maybe you have ten people bidding. The same thing plays out. It isn't always like that, but it's an auction. You play the odds. It's smarter to bid at the end. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sun Jan 2 18:21:27 2005 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j032LQUG046138 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:21:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id B3C20D6CB; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id SAA22096; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:21:20 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAvnRvCR+HjOk8xqhAZSgVlke5fMsCFAaiCCDJepXDGWBs9UsQOrtkwsIN From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:21:20 -0800 To: chris@genly.us, grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] watch CBS and 60 mins Message-ID: <2772-41D8AC20-835@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Chris Genly 's message of Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:11:19 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-25482-433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:21:28 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-25482-433 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Chris..watch 60 mins ad hear what they say... and I wrote kom on purpose.. ~alan~ --WebTV-Mail-25482-433 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3302.bay.webtv.net (209.240.205.150) by storefull-3158.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:12:16 -0800 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by smtpin-3302.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id C27F2E138 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (92@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j031BNNt032249; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j031BLar032244 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.105] ([4.5.12.154]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103011120.TQZT28362.out005.verizon.net@[10.0.0.105]> for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:11:20 -0600 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] watch CBS and 60 mins From: Chris Genly To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <14074-41D898F0-1270@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> References: <14074-41D898F0-1270@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:11:19 -0800 Message-Id: <1104714679.31191.43.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:11:20 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com Errors-To: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Do you mean google.com? What did they say? On Sun, 2005-01-02 at 16:59 -0800, alan wrote: > I just watched 60 mins and it was all about goggle.kom... > boy-o-boy .... talk about being amazed.. > > ~alan~ read and learn ~ Hoss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --WebTV-Mail-25482-433-- From smith@easystreet.com Sun Jan 2 18:37:59 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j032bws0049496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:37:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smith@easystreet.com) Received: from hpp5450 (69-30-98-104.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.104]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0059CB003 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:37:57 -0800 (PST) From: "smith" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:35:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050103013215.31337.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Subject: [Grovenet] ebay 101: to snipe or not to snipe? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:37:59 -0000 I googled a query and found this. I thought it explains it pretty well. I am in the "Eric" theory and it appears these guys are too! Happy sniping! (or not...) Now if somebody could just tell me how to stop this word program from double-spacing - I would be a happy ebayer! Dang- there goes another 2 lines... Barb to snipe or not to snipe[NL]Do People Bid Irrationally On eBay?[PARA]Analysis of online auction data has yielded a wealth of information and a few puzzles. Most puzzling is the wide use of sniping. In 2000, a study of eBay auctions found that 37 percent of auctions had a bid in the last minute and 12 percent in the last 10 seconds. These data underestimate the phenomena of late bidding, because bids received after the auction closes are not counted. In April 2002, Ozmioz Games analyzed a recent set of eBay auctions and found that these numbers have not changed. [PARA]Sniping is even more interesting, since eBay offers an automated bidding agent that is intended to eliminate the incentive to snipe. You only need to tell your bidding agent the most you are willing to pay for an item. If someone bids more, your agent will automatically increase your bid by a minimum increment. [PARA]At first many economists and academics believed sniping to be an irrational strategy. Caught up in the heat of the moment, individuals drove the price of an item up beyond reason in the last minutes. However, Al Roth and Axel Ockenfels, two Harvard researchers, believe bidders are acting in collusion to keep prices down. Their hypothesis is that late bidding is a way for participants to avoid bidding wars, allowing them to get the item at a lower price.[PARA]For example, you want a new computer. It is worth $1000 to you, and you believe there is one other possible bidder who is willing to pay $1000. If each of you uses a bidding agent, then the price quickly rises to $1000. Even if the tie is resolved in your favor, this is no bargain.[PARA]But what if you bid $300 early on. In the last seconds your competitor bids $500. You then bid $600, but run the risk that your bid might be dropped. Even if you only get the computer for $600 half the time, it is still better than paying $1000.[PARA]This example shows the essential intuition of the Roth-Ockenfels analysis: bidding high at the last minute and letting chance determine the outcome is better for both players than bidding high early and starting a bidding war. [PARA]Is this explanation correct? Amazon's going, going, gone rule provides the answer. If you bid in the last minutes the Amazon auction is extended. An auction terminates only when 10 minutes have elapsed without a bid. [PARA]If the Roth-Ockenfels theory is correct, then Amazon auction should see much less last minute bidding. And that is what happens. While eBay auctions show last minute bidding 37 percent of the time, on Amazon less than 1 percent of auctions show this sort of behavior.[PARA]Thus, contrary to what some economists and academics first believed, late bidding is very rational. In fact these bidders, through cunning, or through trial and error, have adopted unwritten rules of conduct to keep prices down.[PARA]This is all well and good for the bidders, but what if you are a seller? Which online auction will net you the most money? There have been some preliminary studies, but it is hard to compare auctions unconditionally. For example it might be unwise to sell on Yahoo without a reservation price, but a reservation price is not needed on eBay.[PARA]So what is your opinion? If you have any insights into which online auction is best for the seller, please email editor@ozmioz.com. Select opinions will appear next issue. (by Ozmioz Mak) From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Sun Jan 2 18:46:40 2005 Received: from smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j032kaJW051281 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.120.71] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ClI5M-0004xH-2w for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:36:44 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=mz9CMcOfNYzsKRNmStE6f+0cB+iqoIqiNXUAq9pnrPgEx1bpjlI7CoMnLYzzXsUv; Message-ID: <410-2200511323643474@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:36:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c2609a587e254222060ac7b8af0af770100033ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.120.71 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:46:40 -0000 What a great way to begin 2005! Thank you! > [Original Message] > From: Steele, Mike > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/2/2005 4:32:04 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] School paper > > For those of you who have been following this thread, I would like to > update matters. Jack Musser, the superintendent, has consulted with > each member of the school board as well as the students in the high > school's journalism class in order to provide background context and > review the district's policies and administrative regulations. After > his consultations with board members, superintendent Musser has decided > to move forward along these lines: [a] ads from the groups in question > can reappear in the January issue of the Viking Log; [b] he will be > meeting this week with Molly Franks of PFLAG for further discussion; [c] > we will initiate a board review of the policies in question which will > take place at some future board meeting[s]. Throughout the > consultations and Jack's meeting with the students, concern for the > well-being of students was foremost. We believe that we will reach a > fruitful accommodation of the various interests, including our students' > well-being, our concerns for best educational practices, and the ready > availability of pertinent resource information for students and their > families. In light of this ongoing process, the issue will not appear > on the Jan. 10 school board meeting agenda. However, be assured that > the policy will be under review for one or more future board meetings. > Public input at that time is most welcome. > > Thanks to all who have been in touch with me or my board colleagues on > this matter. > > With best wishes to all for a wonderful new year.... > > --Mike > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sun Jan 2 18:49:58 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39] (may be forged)) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j032nw56051689 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:49:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005010302483701500cdgj8e>; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 02:48:37 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:48:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004b01c4f1f6$152e2110$6501a8c0@laptop1K> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:49:58 -0000 Is there not a better place to advertise? Is the point of the ad to push the envelope? What would be the policy if _________ Organization were to place an ad? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 19:49:26 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j033nPXk064073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FEDB005 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:03 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000301c4f147$30e5b8f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050103013215.31337.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 03:49:26 -0000 No, Eric. You aren't following the process. I'd get it for $75 or less, = or I'd drop out and let you have it for $76. =20 As I said, I DO NOT sit at my computer and bid. I use the e-bay bidding system.=20 =20 Here's the sequence. The item is at $10, just like you said in your = example. I'm willing to pay as much as $75 for it and I've registered that with = the e-bay bidding program,so that's my $10 bid sitting there. Just before = the auction closes, you, or your bidding program, bids $11, e-bay's system automatically replies with a $12 bid on my behalf . You or your machine bids 13, e-bay replies at 14 for me... and that goes on until one of two things happens: your program fails to get a bid in before the auction closing time, giving the item to me, or you hit $76 and get it because = the price exceeded $75 limit I had set so the e-bay program stopped bidding. = =20 =20 In this case, you are the 'poker' as you call it, but if you're using a bidding program it all happens in the closing seconds. It's likely you = won't poke me all the way to $75 though, using such a program and telling it = to put in a bid in the closing seconds, because by the time e-bay posts the = new $12 bid on my behalf, the auction will close to further bids and I'll = get it for $12.=20 =20 Remember, whenever you put in a bid, even in the closing millisecond of = the auction using bidding software, if there's a bidder with a higher limit using the e-bay bidding program, that e-bay bidder wins. =20 Ron D'Eau Claire =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Eric Canon [mailto:canonmetals@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 5:32 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more You can do it that way if you wish, and in the example you cite, without help from software and without sitting at your computer, you'd win at = $76. I would have won at $11. Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:=20 True, unless the "pokeman" as you call him listed his high bid with the e-bay machine. In that case the e-bay machine does the calculation at = the last second and you still win... At $76.=20 Like I said, when most bidding was manual, being around at the close or using a bidding program was a real advantage. That was because of the peculiar nature of e-bay auctions: a firm cut off time. Live auctions = are never done that way. If the auctioneer sees movement or expressions that suggest there is a likelihood of another bid, he'll hold off on the = gavel and keep calling.=20 But with machines doing most of the bidding, machines go through the = same process as people, only faster. And if it's bidding machine against = bidding machine, the e-bay machine always wins if it's holding a buyer with the highest bid. They designed it that way. Ron D' Eau Claire=20 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:37 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Say the bidding starts at $10. with four days to go. I put in a bid for $100. That's as much as I want to bid. In the next four days "pokeman" decides he wants to bid on the item. So he bids $11., then $12, and so = on, until he bids $75. That's his top. I win the item for $76. (one dollar = more than pokeman because the bid goes up by one dollar increments). Same item, but this time I hold my bid until 8 seconds prior to the end. Pokeman bids $10. No one else bids. I submit my bid for $100 and I win = the item for $11. Only two people bidding? Unusual, but it happens sometimes. Or maybe you have ten people bidding. The same thing plays out. It isn't always like that, but it's an auction. You play the odds. It's smarter to bid at the end. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 2 19:49:29 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j033nTwk064066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0954BB003 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] ebay 101: to snipe or not to snipe? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:03 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4f147$2dd43330$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j033nTwk064066 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 03:49:29 -0000 I agree completely with that too... I'm not arguing with "sniping". The problem is it doesn't work as they describe it because they are missing one important point. In order to "snipe" (place a last-minute bid) the bidder has to bid higher than any bidder registered with e-bay. The last thing e-bay's program does when an auction closes to any further bids is to check and see if an e-bay bidder has a higher limit than the last bid accepted from 'outside'. IF so, the e-bay bidder gets it. In this case, I want the computer and I'm willing to pay $1001 for it. My bid is at $500. In the final seconds your program starts bidding toward your limit of $1,000. Assuming there's time for your program to keep reacting to the counter bids e-bay enters on my behalf before the time runs out, the price will run up to $1001 and I'll get the computer. The likelihood is that the time will run out and I'll get it for something less, but I will be the winner because the last thing e-bay does when an auction closes is check internal bids to see if there's a higher one waiting. That rather defeats the 'sniping' system on most auctions, I find. I've 'sniped' a few and seen it work, so I just don't bother most often - unless it's something that has a very low interest level so it's possible that no one has entered a bid through e-bay's bidding system. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of smith Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] ebay 101: to snipe or not to snipe? I googled a query and found this. I thought it explains it pretty well. I am in the "Eric" theory and it appears these guys are too! Happy sniping! (or not...) Now if somebody could just tell me how to stop this word program from double-spacing - I would be a happy ebayer! Dang- there goes another 2 lines... Barb to snipe or not to snipe[NL]Do People Bid Irrationally On eBay?[PARA]Analysis of online auction data has yielded a wealth of information and a few puzzles. Most puzzling is the wide use of sniping. In 2000, a study of eBay auctions found that 37 percent of auctions had a bid in the last minute and 12 percent in the last 10 seconds. These data underestimate the phenomena of late bidding, because bids received after the auction closes are not counted. In April 2002, Ozmioz Games analyzed a recent set of eBay auctions and found that these numbers have not changed. [PARA]Sniping is even more interesting, since eBay offers an automated bidding agent that is intended to eliminate the incentive to snipe. You only need to tell your bidding agent the most you are willing to pay for an item. If someone bids more, your agent will automatically increase your bid by a minimum increment. [PARA]At first many economists and academics believed sniping to be an irrational strategy. Caught up in the heat of the moment, individuals drove the price of an item up beyond reason in the last minutes. However, Al Roth and Axel Ockenfels, two Harvard researchers, believe bidders are acting in collusion to keep prices down. Their hypothesis is that late bidding is a way for participants to avoid bidding wars, allowing them to get the item at a lower price.[PARA]For example, you want a new computer. It is worth $1000 to you, and you believe there is one other possible bidder who is willing to pay $1000. If each of you uses a bidding agent, then the price quickly rises to $1000. Even if the tie is resolved in your favor, this is no bargain.[PARA]But what if you bid $300 early on. In the last seconds your competitor bids $500. You then bid $600, but run the risk that your bid might be dropped. Even if you only get the computer for $600 half the time, it is still better than paying $1000.[PARA]This example shows the essential intuition of the Roth-Ockenfels analysis: bidding high at the last minute and letting chance determine the outcome is better for both players than bidding high early and starting a bidding war. [PARA]Is this explanation correct? Amazon's going, going, gone rule provides the answer. If you bid in the last minutes the Amazon auction is extended. An auction terminates only when 10 minutes have elapsed without a bid. [PARA]If the Roth-Ockenfels theory is correct, then Amazon auction should see much less last minute bidding. And that is what happens. While eBay auctions show last minute bidding 37 percent of the time, on Amazon less than 1 percent of auctions show this sort of behavior.[PARA]Thus, contrary to what some economists and academics first believed, late bidding is very rational. In fact these bidders, through cunning, or through trial and error, have adopted unwritten rules of conduct to keep prices down.[PARA]This is all well and good for the bidders, but what if you are a seller? Which online auction will net you the most money? There have been some preliminary studies, but it is hard to compare auctions unconditionally. For example it might be unwise to sell on Yahoo without a reservation price, but a reservation price is not needed on eBay.[PARA]So what is your opinion? If you have any insights into which online auction is best for the seller, please email editor@ozmioz.com. Select opinions will appear next issue. (by Ozmioz Mak) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 2 19:50:42 2005 Received: from cepheus.email.starband.net (cepheus.email.starband.net [148.78.247.123]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j033ofhi064417 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by cepheus.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j033qPBg012806 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:52:31 -0500 Message-ID: <18a001c4f147$4a1552e0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050102212624.58120.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:49:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 03:50:42 -0000 I use 'auctionsniper.com' --- although it depends on what you are buying. With some types of items sniping is not necessary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Canon" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] RE: ebay bidding and more > Perspective is everything. Best way to keep the price down ("buyer" speaking here) is last minute bids. I hate those "poke - poke" bidders. They have no clue, and up goes the price. They very seldom win the auction. With the software Barb mentioned, or with Auction Sentry (there are others, too), you select your top price long before the end. There is no emotional pull to bid above the figure you rationally select before the climax (the end of the auction). If it goes too high, there will usually be another coming along real soon. > > Meredith Bliss wrote: Early bidders just jack up the price, which as Barb > mentioned is nice for the seller, but not for the buyer! > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 2 23:46:00 2005 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j037jxT4008446 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050103074555.YJJA17379.out008.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:45:55 -0600 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:45:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Trivia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7F616A50-5D5B-11D9-AC97-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:45:55 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 07:46:00 -0000 1848 Thornton, J. Quinn: author of MEMORIAL OF J. QUINN THORNTON, PRAYING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A TERRITORIAL GOVERNMENT IN OREGON, AND FOR APPROPRIATIONS FOR VARIOUS PURPOSES. Also wrote "Oregon and California in 1848". Other than that I Donner know? David "Oregon and California in 1848" On Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Steven wrote: > Significance of the writer, J. Quinn Thornton > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03@comcast.net Mon Jan 3 00:21:48 2005 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j038LWqB014484 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005010308212701100g5bd7e>; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:21:27 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Trivia Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:21:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <7F616A50-5D5B-11D9-AC97-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:21:49 -0000 Very good David. Now, one more item... -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:46 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Trivia 1848 Thornton, J. Quinn: author of MEMORIAL OF J. QUINN THORNTON, PRAYING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A TERRITORIAL GOVERNMENT IN OREGON, AND FOR APPROPRIATIONS FOR VARIOUS PURPOSES. Also wrote "Oregon and California in 1848". Other than that I Donner know? David "Oregon and California in 1848" On Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Steven wrote: > Significance of the writer, J. Quinn Thornton From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Mon Jan 3 07:10:10 2005 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j03FAAG5091621 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 7D931D620 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA10684; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:10:05 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAoOn7RGN9AGAxJjoRdLPBeU84xV0CFQCkdUIKQivWksWLsth/ftO+LMQuJw== From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:10:05 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <12953-41D9604D-1251@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-7578-648 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] It`s Monday 01/03/05 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:10:11 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-7578-648 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-7578-648 X-URL-Title: Oh No..It`s Monday Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://members.tripod.com/~linhager/HTML/monday-2.html --WebTV-Mail-7578-648-- From steelem@pacificu.edu Mon Jan 3 09:09:52 2005 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j03H9lHx019481 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:09:42 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] School paper Thread-Index: AcTxLqBl0EJ2B7QBRs6cJIC5fOa9SwAiOp7A From: "Steele, Mike" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j03H9lHx019481 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:09:52 -0000 Well...Beth...you are still cordially invited to be there...we encourage the public to stay in touch with school district matters. Have a nice day. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Beth Genly Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:44 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School paper Mike, Thank you for your (and the rest of the Board's) thoughtful re-consideration of this matter. And thanks for letting us know publicly that it will not be on the agenda for Jan 10th -- Otherwise I would have been there! Beth Steele, Mike wrote: >For those of you who have been following this thread, I would like to >update matters. Jack Musser, the superintendent, has consulted with >each member of the school board as well as the students in the high >school's journalism class in order to provide background context and >review the district's policies and administrative regulations. After >his consultations with board members, superintendent Musser has decided >to move forward along these lines: [a] ads from the groups in question >can reappear in the January issue of the Viking Log; [b] he will be >meeting this week with Molly Franks of PFLAG for further discussion; [c] >we will initiate a board review of the policies in question which will >take place at some future board meeting[s]. Throughout the >consultations and Jack's meeting with the students, concern for the >well-being of students was foremost. We believe that we will reach a >fruitful accommodation of the various interests, including our students' >well-being, our concerns for best educational practices, and the ready >availability of pertinent resource information for students and their >families. In light of this ongoing process, the issue will not appear >on the Jan. 10 school board meeting agenda. However, be assured that >the policy will be under review for one or more future board meetings. >Public input at that time is most welcome. > >Thanks to all who have been in touch with me or my board colleagues on >this matter. > >With best wishes to all for a wonderful new year.... > >--Mike > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > -- Beth Genly, RN, CNM Independent Juice Plus Distributor www.livelyhealth.com www.scienceandhealthnews.com 24-hour message line: 503-274-9100 Cell phone: 503-267-4482 Fax: 810-454-6077 Juice Plus+: not a vitamin and mineral supplement, but whole-food based nutrition. Finally, I can get my daily dose of fruits and veggies. Apples, oranges, pineapples, cranberries, peaches, papaya, and acerola cherries. Carrots, barley, parsley, beets, kale, broccoli, cabbage, oats, spinach, and tomatoes. NEW! Vineyard Blend -- especially recommended for heart and respiratory health: Blueberry, blackberry, bilberry, raspberry, cranberry, elderberry, black currant, red currant, Concord grape, with Green tea, ginger root, grape skin, and artichoke. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem@pacificu.edu Mon Jan 3 11:12:20 2005 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j03JCJsq050890 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:12:14 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] School paper Thread-Index: AcTxPwRMIa+DNwV9RB+QZGHuphenMwAiUkBQ From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j03JCJsq050890 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:12:20 -0000 Steven...answers below: Is there not a better place to advertise? [A: there might be. This would be up to the agency seeking ad placement sites]. Is the point of the ad to push the envelope? [A: I don't think so. Providing useful resource info seems to be the focus...have you seen the ad?] What would be the policy if _________ Organization were to place an ad? [Hypothetical. It depends...there are guidelines and policies (to be reviewed)...no one source is automatically out or in as I understand it. It's done on a case by case basis]. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Mon Jan 3 16:23:54 2005 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64] (may be forged)) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j040NmOD028014 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005010400222701600po4spe>; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:22:27 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Trivia Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:22:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7F616A50-5D5B-11D9-AC97-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:23:54 -0000 David wins first runner up with special mention for that Donner slip. Thornton also wrote about the Donner incident. But here's why it's g'net trivia: Forest Grove, Oregon >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Forest Grove is a city located in Washington County, Oregon. The name was selected for the community on January 10, 1851 at a meeting of the trustees of Tualatin Academy (later known as Pacific University). J. Quinn Thornton was the individual who suggested the name. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 17,708. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:46 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Trivia 1848 Thornton, J. Quinn: author of MEMORIAL OF J. QUINN THORNTON, PRAYING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A TERRITORIAL GOVERNMENT IN OREGON, AND FOR APPROPRIATIONS FOR VARIOUS PURPOSES. Also wrote "Oregon and California in 1848". Other than that I Donner know? David "Oregon and California in 1848" On Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Steven wrote: > Significance of the writer, J. Quinn Thornton > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Mon Jan 3 19:32:48 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j043Wl17075213 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050104033244.POJL28388.out014.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]>; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:32:44 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: indy107@grovenet.net Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:32:29 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20050103163003.0F70046784@hosting4.userservices.net> In-Reply-To: <20050103163003.0F70046784@hosting4.userservices.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:32:41 -0600 Cc: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 03:32:48 -0000 This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ... On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote: > Good morning all, > > If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors west > and drop in and see us. We're still waiting on signage, and telephone > service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things I've forgotten, > but we are open! > > > Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka Woodchuck Day. > > See you soon, > > Chuck Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove Shopping Center -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 3 20:20:09 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j044K8As085370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:20:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884332951A for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:20:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:19:45 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4f214$a3e26f10$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 04:20:09 -0000 Lessee, opening must include a group out front chanting: "How much wood could a wood chuck chuck, If a wood chuck could chuck wood? He'd chuck all the wood that a wood chuck could, If a wood chuck could chuck wood!" Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Meredith Bliss Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:32 PM To: indy107@grovenet.net Cc: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ... On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote: > Good morning all, > > If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors > west and drop in and see us. We're still waiting on signage, and > telephone service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things > I've forgotten, but we are open! > > > Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka Woodchuck > Day. > > See you soon, > > Chuck Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove Shopping Center -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Mon Jan 3 20:33:28 2005 Received: from smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j044XSJx088394 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 36368D62A; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id UAA19690; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAvk3mdTSyfGPQ6DqTpXhHvhRDYZkCFDsW+F6YMw2yzRlaIV4pYXv2AH9w From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:22 -0800 To: ron@cobi.biz, grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open Message-ID: <2774-41DA1C92-777@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" 's message of Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:19:45 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-16092-409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 04:33:28 -0000 --WebTV-Mail-16092-409 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit In any case it looks like there's going to be a whole lota chuckin' going on! ya think an OleHoss ought to bring along his motorized wheelbarrow so ole chuck don't have to chuck-wood to far? ~alan~ have wheelbarrow will travel ~ Hoss --WebTV-Mail-16092-409 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3307.bay.webtv.net (209.240.205.165) by storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:21:05 -0800 Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by smtpin-3307.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id A36B9E121 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (92@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j044KAf5085388; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:20:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com) Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j044K8As085370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:20:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884332951A for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:20:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:19:45 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4f214$a3e26f10$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com Errors-To: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Lessee, opening must include a group out front chanting: "How much wood could a wood chuck chuck, If a wood chuck could chuck wood? He'd chuck all the wood that a wood chuck could, If a wood chuck could chuck wood!" Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Meredith Bliss Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:32 PM To: indy107@grovenet.net Cc: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ... On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote: > Good morning all, > > If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors > west and drop in and see us. We're still waiting on signage, and > telephone service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things > I've forgotten, but we are open! > > > Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka Woodchuck > Day. > > See you soon, > > Chuck Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove Shopping Center -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --WebTV-Mail-16092-409-- From ggsteele@gte.net Mon Jan 3 20:42:26 2005 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j044gPar090500 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050104044224.MYCH17379.out008.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:42:24 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c4f217$c94023d0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050103163003.0F70046784@hosting4.userservices.net> <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:42:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:42:23 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 04:42:26 -0000 Congrats, Chuck! :D Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Meredith Bliss=20 To: indy107@grovenet.net=20 Cc: GroveNet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:32 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a = registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ... On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote: > Good morning all, > > If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors = west > and drop in and see us. We're still waiting on signage, and = telephone > service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things I've = forgotten, > but we are open! > > > Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka = Woodchuck Day. > > See you soon, > > Chuck Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove Shopping Center --=20 ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking=20 only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 3 21:45:12 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j045jBuk004718 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050104054510.WINV1106.out003.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:45:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:45:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Trivia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:45:10 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 05:45:12 -0000 Ouch. If I had asked my wife, I would have gotten that as well. When asked, "who named FG?", she replied "John Thornton". David On Monday, January 3, 2005, at 04:22 PM, Steven wrote: > David wins first runner up with special mention for that Donner slip. > Thornton also wrote about the Donner incident. > But here's why it's g'net trivia: > Forest Grove, Oregon >> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. > Forest Grove is a city located in Washington County, Oregon. The name > was > selected for the community on January 10, 1851 at a meeting of the > trustees > of Tualatin Academy (later known as Pacific University). J. Quinn > Thornton > was the individual who suggested the name. As of the 2000 census, the > city > had a total population of 17,708. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:46 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Trivia > > > 1848 Thornton, J. Quinn: author of > MEMORIAL OF J. QUINN THORNTON, PRAYING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A > TERRITORIAL GOVERNMENT IN OREGON, AND FOR APPROPRIATIONS FOR VARIOUS > PURPOSES. > > Also wrote "Oregon and California in 1848". Other than that I Donner > know? > > David > > "Oregon and California in 1848" > > On Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Steven wrote: > >> Significance of the writer, J. Quinn Thornton >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab@jurislex.com Tue Jan 4 09:24:52 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j04HOpQ4048700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:24:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BDA6DC017; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41DAD168.5000905@jurislex.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:24:56 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open References: <20050103163003.0F70046784@hosting4.userservices.net> <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> In-Reply-To: <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: indy107@grovenet.net X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:24:52 -0000 So, who is indy107 anyway??

bob "enquiring mind" browning

Meredith Bliss wrote: 
This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a 
registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ...

On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote:
  
Good morning all,

If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors west
and drop in and see us.  We're still waiting on signage, and telephone
service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things I've forgotten,
but we are open!


Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka Woodchuck Day.

See you soon,

Chuck Underwood
  Woodchuck Computers
  2311 Pacific Ave
  Forest Grove Shopping Center
From rab@jurislex.com Tue Jan 4 19:06:21 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0536KPj018845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6850D6DC00F; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:06:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41DB59A6.3070802@jurislex.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:06:14 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:06:21 -0000
More Than 10,000 U.S. Troops Hurt in Iraq

Tue Jan 4, 1:40 PM ET

WASHINGTON - The number of U.S. troops wounded in Iraq  since the start of the war in March 2003 has surpassed 10,000, the Pentagon  said Tuesday in a delayed update of its casualty data.

Of the 10,252 total wounded, the Pentagon said 5,396 were unable to return to duty and 4,856 sustained injuries that were light enough to allow them to resume their duties. The total is normally reported each week, but the Pentagon had not updated the figures since Dec. 22, when the number of wounded stood at 9,981.

The number of U.S. military deaths in Iraq stood at 1,335 on Tuesday, according to the Pentagon.

In a related development, the Pentagon announced that a brigade-size unit of the 28th Infantry Division of the Pennsylvania Army National Guard, said to number about 2,400 part-time soldiers, will deploy to Iraq as part of a rotation of troops scheduled to begin in mid-2005.

The 48th Infantry Brigade of the Georgia Army National Guard is the other major National Guard unit in the 2005 rotation, which was outlined by the Pentagon in a Dec. 14 announcement that did not mention the Pennsylvania Guard unit.

From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 4 19:43:00 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j053h0JW026059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D622952C for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:42:32 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001301c4f2d8$9bbf26b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41DB59A6.3070802@jurislex.com> Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:43:00 -0000 The "rest of that story" is that, thanks to modern front-line medical = aid, soldiers are surviving wounds that would have been 100% fatal in = Vietnam. So these guys aren't just returning with an arm in a sling or missing a = limb. Many more are coming home totally debilitated with severe, profound injuries.=20 =20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:06 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? More Than 10,000 U.S. Troops Hurt in Iraq=20 Tue Jan 4, 1:40 PM ET WASHINGTON - The number of U.S. troops wounded in Iraq since the start = of the war in March 2003 has surpassed 10,000, the Pentagon said Tuesday = in a delayed update of its casualty data.=20 Of the 10,252 total wounded, the Pentagon said 5,396 were unable to = return to duty and 4,856 sustained injuries that were light enough to allow = them to resume their duties. The total is normally reported each week, but the Pentagon had not updated the figures since Dec. 22, when the number of wounded stood at 9,981.=20 The number of U.S. military deaths in Iraq stood at 1,335 on Tuesday, according to the Pentagon.=20 In a related development, the Pentagon announced that a brigade-size = unit of the 28th Infantry Division of the Pennsylvania Army National Guard, said = to number about 2,400 part-time soldiers, will deploy to Iraq as part of a rotation of troops scheduled to begin in mid-2005.=20 The 48th Infantry Brigade of the Georgia Army National Guard is the = other major National Guard unit in the 2005 rotation, which was outlined by = the Pentagon in a Dec. 14 announcement that did not mention the Pennsylvania Guard unit.=20 From MarianCakarnis@aol.com Tue Jan 4 20:09:31 2005 Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0549VpP031506 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MarianCakarnis@aol.com) Received: from MarianCakarnis@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.25.56228cb1 (3956) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:04:16 -0500 (EST) From: MarianCakarnis@aol.com Message-ID: <25.56228cb1.2f0cc13f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:04:15 EST To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Bright Blue light....no power X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:09:32 -0000 Just wondering if anyone else saw the sky light up about 7:30 PM in the vicinity of Hwy. 26 & 6? I couldn't believe how huge and bright it was. I called the fire department, but they didn't know what it was, so I called a Portland news station and it turns out it was a transformer......only then did I notice the lack of lights around Banks and northeast of Banks. From benmonjay@earthlink.net Tue Jan 4 21:08:20 2005 Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0558J3k043506 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benmonjay@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.122.37] (helo=monjayb) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cm3FD-0003LQ-Gg for grovenet@rdrop.com; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:58:04 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=gzcd+DkCBjpjpHbYu+bGxSgoVU/MuZtPm5YxdtkIcviBFVseYtmvYi5X3O9PMkOK; Message-ID: <006a01c4f2e3$229ae110$bf7af842@monjayb> From: "Benjamin Monjay" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <25.56228cb1.2f0cc13f@aol.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bright Blue light....no power Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:57:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: a378c82b52402e7589cb21dbd10cbf767e972de0d01da940229e45d2b38b241b106902665ccb2f97350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.122.37 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Benjamin Monjay , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 05:08:20 -0000 I was at Walgreens in HIllsboro on Cornell and Corn Pass and it looked like the sun was rising to the North. I started heading towards my work (VW Credit, Hwy 26 and Corn Pass) and was next to Intel and everything went black. I have a scanner and PGE was saying that the substation in NP was heavily damaged. I have included the news release at the bottom. It was eriie driving by the Hillsboro Airport on Evergreen and seeing the entire complex black. Drove home on Evergreen to Glencoe to TV Highway and there was no power until I reached the FG city limits. Thank GOD for a Co-OP. FYI. The grade school in NP on Gordon? Rd. has had a significant 3 alarm fire and which was just put out. It seems that Cornelius is back up along with Hillsboro now. I'll send some updates as needed. PGE - RESENDING WITH SUBSTATION ADDRESS: A problem in a North Plains substation caused a large power outage in Washington County this evening. Portland General Electric reports that in the past hour, close to 45,000 customers lost power, but the utility has already started restoring power. Affected areas include parts of Hillsboro, Banks, Cornelius and North Plains. Eight substations were affected. PGE does not yet know whether the outage was related to tonight's windy weather. The North Plains substation is located at 11009 NW Shadybrook Rd., nortwest of the intersection of Shadybrook Rd and North Ave. UPDATE Tue. 4th, 08:33 PM From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 4 22:38:50 2005 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j056cnAl060476 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:38:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050105063848.FDCA7873.out006.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:38:48 -0600 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:38:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <001301c4f2d8$9bbf26b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: <6686BC0D-5EE4-11D9-AFE3-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:38:48 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 06:38:50 -0000 A bit like the soldiers who returned from the front in WWI after encountering gas attacks. David On Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 07:42 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > The "rest of that story" is that, thanks to modern front-line medical > aid, soldiers are surviving wounds that would have been 100% fatal in > Vietnam. So these guys aren't just returning with an arm in a sling or > missing a limb. Many more are coming home totally debilitated with > severe, profound injuries. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:06 PM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > More Than 10,000 U.S. Troops Hurt in Iraq > > > Tue Jan 4, 1:40 PM ET > > > > WASHINGTON - The number of U.S. troops wounded in Iraq since the > start of the war in March 2003 has surpassed 10,000, the Pentagon > said Tuesday in a delayed update of its casualty data. > > Of the 10,252 total wounded, the Pentagon said 5,396 were unable to > return to duty and 4,856 sustained injuries that were light enough to > allow them to resume their duties. The total is normally reported each > week, but the Pentagon had not updated the figures since Dec. 22, when > the number of wounded stood at 9,981. From ggsteele@gte.net Wed Jan 5 05:48:25 2005 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j05DmNZx043364 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 05:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050105134819.EYYY17379.out008.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:48:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c4f32d$3727ce50$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <6686BC0D-5EE4-11D9-AFE3-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 05:47:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:48:19 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:48:25 -0000 Plus, this is "only" the U.S. troops ... not counting the rest of the casualties ... including children ... Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Morelli=20 To: ron@cobi.biz ; Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? A bit like the soldiers who returned from the front in WWI after=20 encountering gas attacks. David On Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 07:42 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > The "rest of that story" is that, thanks to modern front-line = medical=20 > aid, soldiers are surviving wounds that would have been 100% fatal = in=20 > Vietnam. So these guys aren't just returning with an arm in a sling = or=20 > missing a limb. Many more are coming home totally debilitated with=20 > severe, profound injuries. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] = On > Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:06 PM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] How many thousands of more ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > More Than 10,000 U.S. Troops Hurt in Iraq > > > Tue Jan 4, 1:40 PM ET > > > > WASHINGTON - The number of U.S. troops wounded in Iraq since the=20 > start of the war in March 2003 has surpassed 10,000, the Pentagon =20 > said Tuesday in a delayed update of its casualty data. > > Of the 10,252 total wounded, the Pentagon said 5,396 were unable to=20 > return to duty and 4,856 sustained injuries that were light enough = to=20 > allow them to resume their duties. The total is normally reported = each=20 > week, but the Pentagon had not updated the figures since Dec. 22, = when=20 > the number of wounded stood at 9,981. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Wed Jan 5 10:21:11 2005 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f34.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.44]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j05ILB9a004906 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:21:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.197.194 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:20:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.197.194] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 10:20:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jan 2005 18:21:04.0097 (UTC) FILETIME=[510EB510:01C4F353] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:21:11 -0000 If I may support your points, Steven: By definition, advertising is intended to persuade, not merely inform. I would hope that the policies and guidelines are still written to ensure that the content and tone of the advertising meets standards for a school newspaper - regardless of their source. For example, one would reasonably expect that ads advocating the use of alcohol and cigarettes would not meet the standards, no matter who is promoting them. I hope this District does not get caught up in rhetoric about "equal rights" that is merely a smokescreen for advocacy for an agenda. I hope this District continues its policies of tolerance for all points of view without condoning or approving any of them. That should not mean that anything goes in the school newspaper, on the commons, in the classroom or anywhere else on campus. As Steven says, there are many other outlets for points of view that would not imply approval by the school district. Dick >From: "Steele, Mike" >Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper >Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:12:14 -0800 > >Steven...answers below: > > >Is there not a better place to advertise? [A: there might be. This >would be up to the agency seeking ad placement sites]. >Is the point of the ad to push the envelope? [A: I don't think so. >Providing useful resource info seems to be the focus...have you seen the >ad?] >What would be the policy if _________ Organization were to place an ad? >[Hypothetical. It depends...there are guidelines and policies (to be >reviewed)...no one source is automatically out or in as I understand it. >It's done on a case by case basis]. > >--Mike > >-----Original Message----- >From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Wed Jan 5 11:16:05 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j05JG4fu022524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5223329530 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:15:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:15:38 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f35a$f5c2ff60$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Subject: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:16:06 -0000 As a licensed Amateur Radio Operator (aka "Ham), I often field questions asking why anyone would be interested in knowing how to build and operate radios for a hobby in these days of instant satellite access by data, voice and even video. Here's one reason: http://tinyurl.com/3zbc5 I think it's a good one . On this side of the ocean, we're a major element in what we now call "homeland security" but has, since WWII, been simply, disaster preparedness. Ron D'Eau Claire From chuck@grovenet.net Wed Jan 5 12:54:19 2005 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j05KsIrN046469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dialup-ras6-80.pdx.or.uspops.net [216.239.177.80]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j05KsGNh002433 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:54:17 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c4f369$41fa39d0$50b1efd8@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050103163003.0F70046784@hosting4.userservices.net> <200501031932.29991.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> <41DAD168.5000905@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:58:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 20:54:20 -0000 Hi All,=20 Just got back online today. It seems I confused a few with my 'indy107' = name....that's my (ug I hate to say it.....DIALUP name.... Still waiting for our wonderful Verizon to get my DSL turned on. So = whenever I connect from home, you'll see the indy107. =20 Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2405 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Browning=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Cc: indy107@grovenet.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Re: Woodchuck's Now Open So, who is indy107 anyway?? bob "enquiring mind" browning Meredith Bliss wrote:=20 This message was rejected since the originating email address is not a=20 registered subscriber, but here it is anyway ... On Monday 03 January 2005 08:30, indy107@grovenet.net wrote: Good morning all, If you're out and about near the new Quiznos for lunch, walk 2 doors = west and drop in and see us. We're still waiting on signage, and telephone service, and DSL....and probably a few hundred other things I've = forgotten, but we are open! Grand opening/ribbon cutting/open house on Feb 2, 2005, aka Woodchuck = Day. See you soon, Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove Shopping Center =20 From canonmetals@yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 13:05:41 2005 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j05L5ewJ049162 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21740 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2005 21:05:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=CQaikBYML7uIhmMxkLUJoYeskoTJWNjvDfNAZO6kMdFVuLx77uGdgk2nt+0q3SIMUOCUQ17j3yZoWnH3A1ixydqDQUhDgKvUxBlX0MS54EJkCU5Qz+CR5goTJ9kgxtOZ76FNkjKOq4J0J1TQcaEd0nxOhJjpttzMr8GIsA4Qjv8= ; Message-ID: <20050105210534.21735.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:05:34 PST Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:05:34 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:05:41 -0000 As Dick uses the term "agenda", a code word to the Christian right, I replace it with a natural and correct desire of a given person to be taken for who and what they are. This is about a persons right to respect and safety, even when that person does not conform to what some see as acceptable. This is about being who you are without hiding. This is not about "recruitment", the great fear of some people. Advertising can be about persuading. In this case it is about recognizing a person for who they are. Letting them know that they are not alone is what the ad announces. To pretend that sexual orientation is something that happens only one way is to invite bullying, beatings, intimidation, name calling and worse. To pretend is to deny equal rights to homosexual and trans-gendered people. It also asks them to be someone they are not. Same sex orientation exists. It's real. It's been with us probably from the beginning. It exists in humans and in other mammals. Especially for kids, having some support and perspective, having others with whom you can talk and share, is healthy. These forces are alive in some people. It is crucial to their mental health, in addition to their physical well being and safety, to acknowledge them. My father hide his. To show who he was to others would invite great peril and danger. He lived in fear all through his life. In his day, it was not OK to be who he was, and it took him years to figure it all out, what he was feeling and how others felt about it. The attempts of Molly and others to open the subject up should be supported. Equal rights is not a smoke screen. It is real. It's the normal desire of all people. Same sex people desire to be open about who they are and nothing more. The smoke screen belongs to those who deny them their rights and portray their fight as something it is not. Dick La Jeunesse wrote: If I may support your points, Steven: By definition, advertising is intended to persuade, not merely inform. I would hope that the policies and guidelines are still written to ensure that the content and tone of the advertising meets standards for a school newspaper - regardless of their source. For example, one would reasonably expect that ads advocating the use of alcohol and cigarettes would not meet the standards, no matter who is promoting them. I hope this District does not get caught up in rhetoric about "equal rights" that is merely a smokescreen for advocacy for an agenda. I hope this District continues its policies of tolerance for all points of view without condoning or approving any of them. That should not mean that anything goes in the school newspaper, on the commons, in the classroom or anywhere else on campus. As Steven says, there are many other outlets for points of view that would not imply approval by the school district. Dick >From: "Steele, Mike" >Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper >Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:12:14 -0800 > >Steven...answers below: > > >Is there not a better place to advertise? [A: there might be. This >would be up to the agency seeking ad placement sites]. >Is the point of the ad to push the envelope? [A: I don't think so. >Providing useful resource info seems to be the focus...have you seen the >ad?] >What would be the policy if _________ Organization were to place an ad? >[Hypothetical. It depends...there are guidelines and policies (to be >reviewed)...no one source is automatically out or in as I understand it. >It's done on a case by case basis]. > >--Mike > >-----Original Message----- >From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra@yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 13:42:19 2005 Received: from web54509.mail.yahoo.com (web54509.mail.yahoo.com [68.142.225.179]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j05LgIlS058108 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isis23ra@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 55994 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2005 21:42:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20050105214212.55992.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.188.142] by web54509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:42:12 PST Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:42:12 -0800 (PST) From: Alana Graham Subject: RE: [Grovenet] School paper To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050105210534.21735.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:42:19 -0000 My understanding of the issue is not about advertising or promoting but just getting the information out there that a support system exists for young peole struggling with their sexual orientation/gender identity/expression issues. Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of teen deaths and 1/3 of those suicides can be attributed to issues of sexuality. More information, more discussion, more resources, more supprort can only help. Alana __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Lenahh@verizon.net Wed Jan 5 14:47:30 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j05MlTdm073690 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:47:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Lenahh@verizon.net) Received: from bfu67 ([4.14.149.241]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050105224728.JUKG8290.out004.verizon.net@bfu67>; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:47:28 -0600 Message-ID: <004e01c4f378$9b2a9220$f1950e04@dslverizon.net> From: "Lena H Hendricks" To: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:47:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.14.149.241] at Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:47:21 -0600 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:45:03 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Weather alert - snow possible as early as tomorrow afternoon X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:47:30 -0000 Here is an update from TriMet snow alert. =20 Jeff is on the snow team this year... involuntarily I might add. :-)=20 Means long cold days for him.. Please pray for his health... =20 Blessings and protection for you and your families . Amen!. Lena ---- Original Message -----=20 From: "Hendricks, Jeff" To: "Lena H. Hendricks (E-mail)" Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:36 PM Subject: FW: Weather alert - snow possible as early as tomorrow = afternoon FYI =20 -----Original Message----- From: Much Grund, Jennifer =20 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:29 PM To: Tri-Met Employees Subject: Weather alert - snow possible as early as tomorrow afternoon Forecast Information This is the current forecast being used by TriMet and City of Portland = Maintenance staff to prepare for a possible snow event. It appears = likely that we will experience at least some snow over the next few = days. We will update employees when we receive any major weather = forecast changes. Thursday afternoon/evening - Jan 6 Temperatures will be in the high 30s during the day. During the = afternoon or evening, wet rain/snow mix or all snow will begin to fall. = Snow accumulations will start in the evening above 500 feet. =20 Thursday night into Friday morning - Jan. 6-7 Temperatures will be in the high 20s to low 30s. Snow is likely to = accumulate (could be up to 1-2 inches) on the valley floor by the = morning rush hour. =20 =20 Friday through the end of the day Saturday - Jan. 7-8 Temperatures Friday and Saturday are expected to stay cold in the mid = 30's. Snow changing to snow showers are likely Friday, Friday overnight = and into the day Saturday, with a possible 3 additional inches of = accumulation by the end of the day Saturday. =20 Sunday - Jan. 9 Temperatures in the low 30s. Should dry up with little or no additional = snow accumulation. From k.wilke@comcast.net Wed Jan 5 21:22:15 2005 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j065MErH061268 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.wilke@comcast.net) Received: from [67.169.192.219] (c-67-169-192-219.client.comcast.net[67.169.192.219]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <200501060521300160028581e>; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 05:21:30 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:20:48 -0800 From: Kurt Wilke To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c4f35a$f5c2ff60$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 05:22:15 -0000 Greetings. If it does snow here this weekend, I was wondering if there are any good sledding hills accessible for some snow fun. Anybody know of any? Kurt <- looking forward to the white stuff From NoSpam03@comcast.net Wed Jan 5 22:02:25 2005 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64] (may be forged)) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0661ANu069816 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:02:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <200501060559490160029iaqe>; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 05:59:49 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:59:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:02:26 -0000 14th & Birch is historic. In a 'real' storm Ash at 17th is good too. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Wilke Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:21 PM To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills Greetings. If it does snow here this weekend, I was wondering if there are any good sledding hills accessible for some snow fun. Anybody know of any? Kurt <- looking forward to the white stuff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt@verizon.net Wed Jan 5 22:05:59 2005 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0665x0M072050 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050106060555.QBQR10436.out012.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 00:05:55 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01c4f47f$2cdf1d60$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:07:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 00:05:53 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:06:00 -0000 You have to define good. In Old town everyone converges at the corner of Birch and 13th. AKA sled hill. The bottom of the hill is a field (which is much preferable to Forest Gale Drive where the bottom is a highway). However, 13th/Birch is a gentle slope that is almost safe* enough for all ages, so if you are looking for something that would thrill a teenager who has no concept that personal injury can happen to them too, then I'm not sure. *Safe being a relative term in the overall scheme of things. Children + sleds + no brakes + no steering........could be lots of fun - just hope the ER is staffed just in case. Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt Wilke" To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:20 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills > Greetings. > > If it does snow here this weekend, I was wondering if there are any good > sledding hills accessible for some snow fun. Anybody know of any? > > Kurt <- looking forward to the white stuff > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 22:16:38 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j066GbxA073910 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:16:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 16557 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2005 06:16:31 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=vPmdb1vJCOfpe8BtpfVcnK8zy0X5Ia+jKtcJzyiBAwkTMo2uZ3MrteZHxLGaa5JzM2rEGIy0CO/07el1LV1JgLWW8UduOTw4YuxHm335WkYteafY75Z5YnDGqFCdeCEm5hKTOyCYCccqzTDKNB+gCyC2ropGisn2smv+Ta0yreA= ; Message-ID: <20050106061631.16555.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:16:31 PST Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:16:38 -0000 I used to live on the corner of 18th and Ash and I never saw sledding there. Not enough of an incline. One block east on Birch might work, but then you contend with 19th at the bottom of the hill (such as it is). Steven wrote:14th & Birch is historic. In a 'real' storm Ash at 17th is good too. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Wilke Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:21 PM To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Snow & where are good local sledding hills Greetings. If it does snow here this weekend, I was wondering if there are any good sledding hills accessible for some snow fun. Anybody know of any? Kurt <- looking forward to the white stuff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 09:16:03 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j06HG2fm024315 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:16:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 98961 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2005 17:15:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oohUModh5uVFCGI/KaEGP0jyNuQr4S7e0uywlz/C5tYQN6xXvaFw/HZiUTbNG93ZozciDBZfH9Os06Nd8OH50tttbauP1nUtAk55dIYSU8OJVE1R5qOl4x1Sktr8X+dsqv/cqGaTEMkCQJpWrmZFsqcq/H4JpcU1B+KB232lOxU= ; Message-ID: <20050106171556.98959.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 09:15:56 PST Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:15:56 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] The President's agenda - is this helping? Who? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:16:03 -0000 we're hearing a lot about tort reform........here's some more to the story: PATIENTS' RIGHTS President Shills For Insurance Industry President Bush traveled to Collinsville, IL, yesterday on behalf of the insurance industry to push his plan to restrict justice for injured plaintiffs. The president claimed "the prospect of big jury awards in medical malpractice cases was causing insurance rates to soar and doctors to abandon their practices." If you scrape away the overheated rhetoric and look at the reality, however, a very different picture emerges. His proposal would have no real effect on the cost of health care. The caps would "disproportionately affect" children and seniors who live on fixed incomes. According to the Congressional Budget Office, it also would "undermine incentives for safety" while at the same time making it "harder for some patients with legitimate but difficult claims to find legal representation." THE INEFFECTIVE ILLINOIS ILLUSTRATION: President Bush chose Madison County, IL, to stump for this proposal because, he said, "the county illustrated the problems" of junk lawsuits. Nearly 700 malpractice/wrongful death suits were filed there between 1996 and 2003. But here's what Bush doesn't tell you: Since the system usually does work, most frivolous lawsuits are thrown out of court early in the process. Of those 700 lawsuits, for example, only 14 resulted in verdicts and only six of those favored the plaintiffs. And of those six, only one was actually large enough to be affected by the president's proposed $250,000 cap. THE MYTH OF THE CAPPING EFFECT: Capping malpractice awards would have little to no effect on skyrocketing malpractice insurance costs. The CBO found malpractice costs account for less than 2% of health care spending. In fact, an analysis by the CBO shows capping medical malpractice would affect private health insurance premiums by a measly one half of one percent. NO LINK BETWEEN PAYOUTS AND PREMIUMS: Today's high premiums are a result of insurance industry pricing practices which gouge doctors. Consider: While malpractice payouts actually went down by 8.2 percent between 2001 and 2002, there was no corresponding decrease in doctors' premiums; the insurance industry simply pocketed the difference. The Des Moines Register points out, "There's simply no correlation between lawsuits and insurance rates. Rather, insurance rates are tied to the climate of the stock and bond market, where insurance companies invest much of their money." NO LINK BETWEEN CAPS AND PREMIUMS: A study by Weiss Ratings, Inc., showed that in 19 states with malpractice caps, physicians suffered a 48.2 percent jump in their premiums. Meanwhile, in 32 states without caps, premiums rose by only 35.9 percent. In other words, there is no connection between caps and premium rates. That finding was echoed by the Congressional Budget Office, which found there is "no statistically significant difference in per capita health care spending between states with and without limits on malpractice torts." THE CALIFORNIA TEST: President Bush has said he wants to institute a $250,000 cap on damages, similar to the cap in effect in the state of California. That cap, instituted in 1975, had no effect on malpractice insurance costs. According to the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights, insurance rates continued to skyrocket for 13 years after that cap was enacted. It wasn't until the state went after the insurance companies themselves, with a "1988 ballot proposition mandating a rate rollback and making it easier to challenge future rate hikes that the problem began to subside." A 1993 study of medical malpractice insurance found caps in California had "done little more than enrich California malpractice insurers with excessive profits, at the expense of malpractice victims." SELLING INSURANCE: Common sense dictates that if the skyrocketing cost of malpractice insurance is fueling the high cost of health care, President Bush should address the issue of insurance reform. Why is he so reluctant? Just follow the money. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, since 2000, the insurance industry has donated almost $74 million to President Bush and his allies in Congress. here's the cbo's (hardly a radical, partisan group) findings on insurance reform: ECONOMIC AND BUDGET ISSUE BRIEFCBOA series of issue summaries from the Congressional Budget Office January 8, 2004Limiting Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice The past few years have seen a sharp increase in premiums for medical malpractice liability insurance, which health care professionals buy to protect themselves from the costs of being sued (see Figure 1). On average, premiums for all physicians nationwide rose by 15 percent between 2000 and 2002--nearly twice as fast as total health care spending per person. The increases during that period were even more dramatic for certain specialties: 22 percent for obstetricians/gynecologists and 33 percent for internists and general surgeons.(1) (For a definition of malpractice and other terms used in this brief, see Box 1). Figure 1. --------------------------------- Trends in Premiums for Physicians' Medical Malpractice Insurance, by Type of Physician, 1993 to 2002 --------------------------------- (Index, 1993 = 100) Source: Congressional Budget Office based on data from the Office of the Actuary at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (data for all physicians) and from annual premium surveys conducted by Medical Liability Monitor newsletter (data for physicians by specialty). --------------------------------- Box 1. --------------------------------- Definitions of Some Common Tort Terms --------------------------------- Collateral-source benefits: Amounts that a plaintiff recovers from sources other than the defendant, such as the plaintiff's own insurance. Economic damages: Funds to compensate a plaintiff for the monetary costs of an injury, such as medical bills or loss of income. Joint-and-several liability: Liability in which each liable party is individually responsible for the entire obligation. Under joint-and-several liability, a plaintiff may choose to seek full damages from all, some, or any one of the parties alleged to have committed the injury. In most cases, a defendant who pays damages may seek reimbursement from nonpaying parties. Malpractice: "Failure of one rendering professional services to exercise that degree of skill and learning commonly applied under all the circumstances in the community by the average prudent reputable member of the profession with the result of injury, loss or damage to the recipient of those services or to those entitled to rely upon them."1 Negligence: A violation of a duty to meet an applicable standard of care. Noneconomic damages: Damages payable for items other than monetary losses, such as pain and suffering. The term technically includes punitive damages, but those are typically discussed separately. Punitive damages: Damages awarded in addition to compensatory (economic and noneconomic) damages to punish a defendant for willful and wanton conduct. Statute of limitations: A statute specifying the period of time after the occurrence of an injury--or, in some cases, after the discovery of the injury or of its cause--during which any suit must be filed. --------------------------------- 1. Bryan A. Garner, ed., Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed. (St. Paul, Minn.: West Group, 1990), p. 959. The available evidence suggests that premiums have risen both because insurance companies have faced increased costs to pay claims (from growth in malpractice awards) and because of reduced income from their investments and short-term factors in the insurance market. Some observers fear that rising malpractice premiums will cause physicians to stop practicing medicine, thus reducing the availability of health care in some parts of the country. To curb the growth of premiums, the Administration and Members of Congress have proposed several types of restrictions on malpractice awards. Bills introduced in the House and Senate in 2003 would impose caps on awards for noneconomic and punitive damages, reduce the statute of limitations on claims, restrict attorneys' fees, and allow evidence of any benefits that plaintiffs collect from other sources (such as their insurance) to be admitted at trial. Limits of one kind or another on liability for malpractice injuries, or "torts," are relatively common at the state level: more than 40 states had at least one restriction in effect in 2002.(2) Evidence from the states indicates that premiums for malpractice insurance are lower when tort liability is restricted than they would be otherwise. But even large savings in premiums can have only a small direct impact on health care spending--private or governmental--because malpractice costs account for less than 2 percent of that spending.(3) Advocates or opponents cite other possible effects of limiting tort liability, such as reducing the extent to which physicians practice "defensive medicine" by conducting excessive procedures; preventing widespread problems of access to health care; or conversely, increasing medical injuries. However, evidence for those other effects is weak or inconclusive. The Goals and Pitfalls of Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice Issues surrounding the effects of the malpractice system and of possible restrictions on it can be viewed as questions of economic efficiency (providing the maximum possible net benefits to society) and equity (distributing the benefits and costs fairly). Fairness is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. But the common equity-related argument for malpractice liability is that someone harmed by the actions of a physician or other medical professional deserves to be compensated by the injuring party. The efficiency argument is that, in principle, liability (as a supplement to government regulations, professional oversight, and the desire of health care providers to maintain good reputations) gives providers an incentive to control the incidence and costs of malpractice injuries. In practice, however, the effect on efficiency depends on the standards used to distinguish medical negligence from appropriate care and on the accuracy of malpractice judgments and awards. If malpractice is judged inaccurately or is not clearly defined, doctors may carry out excessive tests and procedures to be able to cite as evidence that they were not negligent. Likewise, if malpractice is defined clearly but too broadly or if awards tend to be too high, doctors may engage in defensive medicine, inefficiently restrict their practices, or retire. Conversely, if doctors face less than the full costs of their negligence--because they are insulated by liability insurance or because malpractice is unrecognized or undercompensated--they may have too little incentive to avoid risky practices. For all of those reasons, it is not clear whether trying to control malpractice by means of liability improves economic efficiency or reduces it. The costs of court-imposed awards and out-of-court settlements for malpractice are reflected in the premiums charged for malpractice insurance. If those costs are inefficiently high (or low), premiums will tend to be too, on average. But premiums can also be a source of inefficiency themselves. The amounts that physicians pay for malpractice coverage are generally based on broad aggregates, which reflect factors such as doctors' medical specialties and locations but neglect relevant differences in the quality of their services. Thus, even if premiums are correct on average, they may be too high for the large majority of physicians and too low for a minority who are less careful or competent. Why Have Malpractice Premiums Risen So Sharply? Premiums for malpractice insurance are set so that over time, insurers' income from those premiums equals their total costs (including the cost of providing a competitive return to their investors) minus their income from investing any funds they hold in reserve. In the short term, however, premiums may be above or below that equilibrium level, with profits fluctuating or reserves rising or falling as a result. A full analysis of the reasons for the recent rise in premiums is beyond the scope of this brief. But the available evidence suggests that higher costs for insurers (particularly from increases in the size of malpractice awards), lower investment income, and short-term factors such as cyclical patterns in the insurance market have all played major roles. Increased Costs Payments of claims are the most significant costs that malpractice insurers face, accounting for about two-thirds of their total costs. The average payment for a malpractice claim has risen fairly steadily since 1986, from about $95,000 in that year to $320,000 in 2002 (see Figure 2). That increase represents an annual growth rate of nearly 8 percent--more than twice the general rate of inflation.(4) Figure 2. --------------------------------- Average Insurance Payment for Closed Malpractice Claims, 1986 to 2002 --------------------------------- (Thousands of dollars) Source: Physician Insurers Association of America. Note: These averages exclude closed claims that did not result in payments. --------------------------------- Although the cost per successful claim has increased, the rate of such claims has remained relatively constant. Each year, about 15 malpractice claims are filed for every 100 physicians, and about 30 percent of those claims result in an insurance payment.(5) The other one-third of malpractice insurers' costs comprise legal costs for policyholders who are sued and underwriting and administrative expenses. Those types of costs have also increased. Like claims payments, legal-defense costs grew by about 8 percent annually during the 1986-2002 period, from around $8,000 per claim to more than $27,000.(6) In addition, the many malpractice insurers who buy reinsurance to protect themselves from large losses have seen that part of their underwriting costs rise significantly over the past decade. (Those increases are not related solely to medical malpractice but reflect a general tightening of the reinsurance market in the wake of such catastrophic events as Hurricane Andrew in 1992, the Northridge earthquake in 1994, and the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.)(7) Reduced Investment Income Insurers generally base the malpractice premiums they charge in a given year on the future payments they expect to make for claims filed in that year. On average, claims are settled five years after the premiums for them were collected, and the income that insurers earn from investing premium receipts in the meantime is an important source of funds for them. Insurance companies' investment yields have been lower for the past few years, putting pressure on premiums to make up the difference. According to the General Accounting Office (GAO), annual investment returns for the nation's 15 largest malpractice insurers dropped by an average of 1.6 percentage points from 2000 to 2002--enough to account for a 7.2 percent increase in premium rates.(8) That figure corresponds to almost half of the 15 percent increase in rates estimated by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Short-Term Factors Premium increases in recent years may also reflect temporary adjustments in the reserve levels and profit rates of insurance companies. Premiums rose sharply for a few years in the late 1980s because of insurers' expectations of future claims, which proved to be too high. The result was an accumulation of reserves, which were drawn down in the 1990s during a period of relative stability in premiums. If insurers' current expectations of future claims also turn out to be too high, the same thing could happen again. The recent increases may also be a self-limiting response to insurers' low profits. In some states, premiums have been significantly affected when major insurers have decided to withdraw from the malpractice market, either locally or nationally. For example, in West Virginia and Nevada, the St. Paul Company had market shares of 43 percent and 36 percent, respectively, when it stopped renewing policies in August 2001 and then left the market entirely.(9) Such a reduction in the supply of malpractice insurance can help drive premiums up sharply in the short run. But those higher premiums encourage other malpractice insurers to expand their insurance offerings in those markets and thus tend to moderate future price increases (all other things being equal). Potential Effects of Some Restrictions Under Consideration In theory, the kinds of limits on malpractice liability that are being considered in the Congress could either enhance or detract from economic efficiency, depending on the current state of the liability system. For example: Capping or otherwise restricting awards for noneconomic losses and punitive damages might improve efficiency if such awards are now frequently arbitrary or excessive. It would do so by reducing the extent to which disproportionate awards distort the incentives for providers to practice medicine safely. Conversely, that change might undermine incentives for safety and reduce efficiency if current awards are generally appropriate. Allowing evidence of benefits that patients receive from collateral sources to be presented at trial might improve efficiency if today judges or juries sometimes wrongly find health care providers negligent out of (perhaps subconscious) concern that plaintiffs would otherwise be in dire financial straits. Or again, it might reduce efficiency if it encouraged carelessness by providers. Capping "contingent" fees (those set by a plaintiff's attorney as a percentage of any damages awarded to the plaintiff) could improve efficiency by reducing nuisance suits. Conversely, such a change could reduce efficiency by making it harder for some patients with legitimate but difficult claims to find legal representation. Evidence About the Effects of Restricting Malpractice Liability Several studies have found that various types of restrictions on malpractice liability can indeed reduce total awards and thereby lead to lower premiums for malpractice insurance. By themselves, however, such changes do not affect economic efficiency: they modify the distribution of gains and losses to individuals and groups but do not create benefits or costs for society as a whole. The evidence for indirect effects on efficiency--through changes in defensive medicine, the availability of medical care, or the extent of malpractice--is at best ambiguous. Effects on Malpractice Premiums In 1993, the Office of Technology Assessment issued a report summarizing the first wave of studies on the experience of states that set limits on malpractice liability in the 1970s and 1980s. The report concluded that caps on damage awards consistently reduced the size of claims and, in turn, premium rates for malpractice insurance. Further, it found that limiting the use of joint-and-several liability, requiring awards to be offset by the value of collateral-source benefits, and reducing statutes of limitations for filing claims were also effective in slowing the growth of premiums.(10) More-recent studies have reached similar conclusions. A 2003 study that examined state data from 1993 to 2002 found that two restrictions--a cap on noneconomic damages and a ban on punitive damages--would together reduce premiums by more than one-third (all other things being equal).(11) And based on its own research on the effects of tort restrictions, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that the provisions of the Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003 (H.R. 5) would lower premiums nationwide by an average of 25 percent to 30 percent from the levels likely to occur under current law. (The savings in each state would depend in part on the restrictions already in effect there.) Savings of that magnitude would not have a significant impact on total health care costs, however. Malpractice costs amounted to an estimated $24 billion in 2002, but that figure represents less than 2 percent of overall health care spending.(12) Thus, even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small.(13) Effects on Defensive Medicine Proponents of limiting malpractice liability have argued that much greater savings in health care costs would be possible through reductions in the practice of defensive medicine. However, some so-called defensive medicine may be motivated less by liability concerns than by the income it generates for physicians or by the positive (albeit small) benefits to patients. On the basis of existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing defensive medicine would be very small. A comprehensive study using 1984 data from the state of New York did not find a strong relationship between the threat of litigation and medical costs, even though physicians reported that their practices had been affected by the threat of lawsuits.(14) More recently, some researchers observed reductions in health care spending correlated with changes in tort law, but their studies were based on a narrow part of the population and considered spending for only a few ailments. One study analyzed the impact of tort limits on Medicare hospital spending for patients who had been hospitalized for acute myocardial infarction or ischemic heart disease; it observed a significant decline in spending in states that had enacted certain tort restrictions.(15) Other research examined the effect of tort limits on the proportion of births by cesarean section. It also found savings in states with tort limits, though of a much smaller magnitude.(16) However, when CBO applied the methods used in the study of Medicare patients hospitalized for two types of heart disease to a broader set of ailments, it found no evidence that restrictions on tort liability reduce medical spending. Moreover, using a different set of data, CBO found no statistically significant difference in per capita health care spending between states with and without limits on malpractice torts. Still, the question of whether such limits reduce spending remains open, and CBO continues to explore it using other research methods. Effects on the Availability of Physicians' Services Some observers argue that high malpractice premiums are causing physicians to restrict their practices or retire, leading to a crisis in the availability of certain health care services in a growing number of areas. GAO investigated the situations in five states with reported access problems and found mixed evidence. On the one hand, GAO confirmed instances of reduced access to emergency surgery and newborn delivery, albeit "in scattered, often rural, areas where providers identified other long-standing factors that affect the availability of services." On the other hand, it found that many reported reductions in supply by health care providers could not be substantiated or "did not widely affect access to health care."(17) Effects on Malpractice Defenders of current tort law sometimes argue that restrictions on malpractice liability could undermine the deterrent effect of such liability and thus lead to higher rates of medical injuries. However, it is not obvious that the current tort system provides effective incentives to control such injuries. One reason for doubt is that health care providers are generally not exposed to the financial cost of their own malpractice risk because they carry liability insurance, and the premiums for that insurance do not reflect the records or practice styles of individual providers but more-general factors such as location and medical specialty.(18) Second, evidence suggests that very few medical injuries ever become the subject of a tort claim. The 1984 New York study estimated that 27,179 cases of medical negligence occurred in hospitals throughout the state that year, but only 415--or 1.5 percent--led to claims.(19) In short, the evidence available to date does not make a strong case that restricting malpractice liability would have a significant effect, either positive or negative, on economic efficiency. Thus, choices about specific proposals may hinge more on their implications for equity--in particular, on their effects on health care providers, patients injured through malpractice, and users of the health care system in general. From ron@cobi.biz Thu Jan 6 13:05:22 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j06L5Lwe084574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:05:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747B229524 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:02:10 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000701c4f433$08d039f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F3EF.FAACF9F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41DB59A6.3070802@jurislex.com> Importance: Normal X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:05:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F3EF.FAACF9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From today's BBC News: =20 A baby hippopotamus snuggles up to a giant tortoise =20 Owen, a baby hippopotamus that survived tsunami=20 waves on the Kenyan coast snuggles up to its new=20 adopted "mother", a century-old male giant tortoise,=20 in Mombasa. =20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F3EF.FAACF9F0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="_40695471_hippo-afp300.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40695000/jpg/_40695471_hippo-afp300.jpg 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13:13:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050106211343.ZLPR17379.out008.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy>; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:13:43 -0600 Message-ID: <002401c4f434$9a9ca390$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000701c4f433$08d039f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:11:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:13:43 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:13:45 -0000 Thanks, Ron. That is something cool to see ... Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ron D'Eau Claire=20 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'=20 Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:02 PM Subject: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... >From today's BBC News: =20 A baby hippopotamus snuggles up to a giant tortoise = =20 Owen, a baby hippopotamus that survived tsunami=20 waves on the Kenyan coast snuggles up to its new=20 adopted "mother", a century-old male giant tortoise,=20 in Mombasa. =20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ From steelem@pacificu.edu Thu Jan 6 13:23:31 2005 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j06LNVem089065 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:23:30 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... Thread-Index: AcT0NJ775luXno3URXWLcOuwzJ7o2gAAZUTg From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j06LNVem089065 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:23:31 -0000 Dear G-nuts....I just opened and read a long account of tsunami survival written by one of my former students and handball player, Chris Burke, PU '02. Chris is in medical school in Australia and had been doing medical research before that. He's literate and a world traveler...it's 9 pages long but well worth the read. If you'd like to see it, please contact me privately and I will send it to you as an attachment. Shalom, --Mike From rab@jurislex.com Thu Jan 6 14:30:28 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j06MURrp007019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:30:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AA936405A; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:30:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 14:30:21 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:30:28 -0000 Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP over Social Security!! Where you going to put your money??

http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn

bob "getting older everyday" browning
From ron@cobi.biz Thu Jan 6 15:40:52 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j06NeqvE023823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:40:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (69-30-98-70.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0A5B01F for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:40:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:40:31 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000401c4f449$20e56130$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:40:53 -0000 Two headlines. Links to the stories if you're interested, but the headlines told the tale: Used Body Armor Is Sought for U.S. Vehicles in Iraq http://tinyurl.com/5ws5b Seven U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attack Near Baghdad http://tinyurl.com/6wmd8 Like those infamous weapons of mass destruction, I suppose we're to believe that the armor was provided after the flap last month. Not in this America, I guess. Ron D'Eau Claire From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 6 19:32:41 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j073WeGr073018 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107033239.GRHR28388.out014.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:32:39 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:32:05 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com> In-Reply-To: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501061932.05688.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:32:39 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:32:41 -0000 Maybe we can hope for a replay of the Army / McCarthy hearings? On Thursday 06 January 2005 14:30, Bob Browning wrote: > > > > > > > > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP > over Social Security!! Where you going to put your money??
>
> href="http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn">http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn

> bob "getting older everyday" browning
> > -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From SteveWhisler@cs.com Thu Jan 6 20:37:59 2005 Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j074bwCD085207 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from SteveWhisler@cs.com) Received: from SteveWhisler@cs.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.191.361b0023 (4529) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:37:45 -0500 (EST) From: SteveWhisler@cs.com Message-ID: <191.361b0023.2f0f6c19@cs.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:37:45 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 04:37:59 -0000 A big thank you to Eric for the GAO report giving the lie to Bush's first salvo attacking trial lawyers as his way of addressing the health care crisis in this country. It is another example of demagoguery practiced by this administration in order to define the debate in terms that polarize rather than terms that lead to constructive solutions. In addition, to both Bob and Bud, hang onto your hats. The Social Security issue will be a major test for Grover Norquist's vision of starving a government program that this administration wants to see reduced or eliminated. Any inroad that can be made against this legacy of the Roosevelt administration will be considered a success by the Bushies. It will then serve as a template for dismantling other helpful social programs that this administration finds objectionable. We do live in interesting times! From jo.david@verizon.net Thu Jan 6 21:33:43 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j075XfUs095617 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from blueatx ([4.11.50.118]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107053340.CFAQ28362.out005.verizon.net@blueatx> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:33:40 -0600 Message-ID: <012301c4f47a$281ea160$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> From: "jo & david" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000701c4f433$08d039f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> <002401c4f434$9a9ca390$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:31:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:33:35 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:33:43 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron D'Eau Claire To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:02 PM Subject: [Grovenet] A Tsunami Survivor... >From today's BBC News: A baby hippopotamus snuggles up to a giant tortoise Owen, a baby hippopotamus that survived tsunami waves on the Kenyan coast snuggles up to its new adopted "mother", a century-old male giant tortoise, in Mombasa. Ron D'Eau Claire Everybody needs somebody. Sometimes just being there is all that is needed. David From jo.david@verizon.net Thu Jan 6 21:38:56 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j075cumj096430 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from blueatx ([4.11.50.118]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107053855.BIMX8290.out004.verizon.net@blueatx> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:38:55 -0600 Message-ID: <014f01c4f47a$e2455ac0$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> From: "jo & david" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:36:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:38:48 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:38:57 -0000 I would put my money on the same bunch of politicians who reformed Medicare. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: "Grovenet" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP over Social Security!! Where you going to put your money?? > > http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn > > bob "getting older everyday" browning > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david@verizon.net Thu Jan 6 21:50:55 2005 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j075ot8d098661 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:50:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from blueatx ([4.11.50.118]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107055054.FACV17379.out008.verizon.net@blueatx>; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:50:54 -0600 Message-ID: <015401c4f47c$8f775120$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> From: "jo & david" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000401c4f449$20e56130$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:48:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:50:48 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:50:55 -0000 Ron, Two responses to the two headlines. "Body armor". Like Rumsfeld said, Our soldiers will fight the war with what they are "given", because our soldiers cannot fight it with what they were "issued".. And the collection drives might "give" our soldiers some support. The shortages are specially sad, since Rumsfeld was preparing for this war from the changes he instituted upon taking office before 9-11. "Seven soldiers killed". The Iraqi are also fighting the war with what they were given. And Rumsfeld's failure to provide sufficient troops to protect the ammunition dumps during the offensive against Saddam Hussein, gave away a lot of ammunition to the Iraqi. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) > Two headlines. Links to the stories if you're interested, but the headlines told the tale: > > Used Body Armor Is Sought for U.S. Vehicles in Iraq > http://tinyurl.com/5ws5b > > Seven U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attack Near Baghdad > http://tinyurl.com/6wmd8 > > Like those infamous weapons of mass destruction, I suppose we're to believe > that the armor was provided after the flap last month. > > Not in this America, I guess. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 22:09:25 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0769PFZ002063 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 53702 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2005 06:09:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FJuEXmimNsfhcZfolNLvTtJMaLRRxKsxo6swWjQPBROlMGWCQZIXhH3Po6GJ2e3WzmXZl02icRJg8vt3uFTBknNY0MUtURbcuGzoZc1NBd/PEJPaDbqN8z+tVlUvCMja/jg+dN10sEL+3Iw31khfHfmO6Osh0wbqsWAeTGxruvQ= ; Message-ID: <20050107060919.53700.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:09:19 PST Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:09:19 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000401c4f449$20e56130$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:09:26 -0000 They were riding in a Bradley troop carrier. I think they are heavily armored, unlike some humvees. They said the road side bomb must have been really potent. It killed all seven soldiers aboard. Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:Two headlines. Links to the stories if you're interested, but the headlines told the tale: Used Body Armor Is Sought for U.S. Vehicles in Iraq http://tinyurl.com/5ws5b Seven U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attack Near Baghdad http://tinyurl.com/6wmd8 Like those infamous weapons of mass destruction, I suppose we're to believe that the armor was provided after the flap last month. Not in this America, I guess. Ron D'Eau Claire _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Thu Jan 6 22:19:43 2005 Received: from artemis.email.starband.net (artemis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j076JhTt004200 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by artemis.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j077Bowd022872 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 02:11:56 -0500 Message-ID: <069f01c4f480$4a1ca900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com> <014f01c4f47a$e2455ac0$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:15:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:19:44 -0000 It comes down to having a plan. Everyone knows that SS has some serious problems due to changing demographics which will become harder to fix every year. Clinton sat on his backside for 8 years and never even mentioned a concept of an idea for a repair. the D's have had two presidential candidates and neither has mentioned any identifiable proposal to address the issues that we all know SS has. To this date I have heard no alternative to what Bush is rolling to. When there is a problem and only one plan around---which one is congress going to choose? ----- Original Message ----- From: "jo & david" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > I would put my money on the same bunch of politicians who reformed Medicare. > > David > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Browning" > To: "Grovenet" > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:30 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP over Social Security!! Where you going to put your money?? > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn > > > > bob "getting older everyday" browning > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Thu Jan 6 22:38:54 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j076crVc007544 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:38:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from blueatx ([4.11.50.118]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107063852.FJFJ28025.out001.verizon.net@blueatx> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:38:52 -0600 Message-ID: <028e01c4f483$428dd120$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> From: "jo & david" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com><014f01c4f47a$e2455ac0$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> <069f01c4f480$4a1ca900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:36:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:38:45 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:38:54 -0000 I hear your comment that "Clinton sat on his backside". As a fiscal conservative when faced with a serious financial outlay for a major national program, would you prefer to address it from the perspective of a budget surplus like we had in 2000, or rather face the Social Security problem with Bush's economic plan of a record budget deficit AND a long term debt for a war in the Middle East? Some may see the question as a no-brainer. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > It comes down to having a plan. Everyone knows that SS has some serious > problems due to changing demographics which will become harder to fix every > year. Clinton sat on his backside > for 8 years and never even mentioned a concept of an idea for a repair. the > D's have had two presidential candidates and neither has mentioned any > identifiable proposal to address the issues that we all know SS has. To > this date I have heard no alternative to what Bush is rolling to. > > When there is a problem and only one plan around---which one is congress > going to choose? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jo & david" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > I would put my money on the same bunch of politicians who reformed > Medicare. > > > > David > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bob Browning" > > To: "Grovenet" > > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:30 PM > > Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > > > > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP over > Social Security!! Where you going to put your money?? > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn > > > > > > bob "getting older everyday" browning > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From johnb@easystreet.com Thu Jan 6 23:35:47 2005 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j077ZkDa017490 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnb@easystreet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D5E2F6C6 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRUMPY2 (grumpy.easystreet.com [209.162.209.82]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3866DC00C for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:35:37 -0800 (PST) From: "John Beaston" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:35:37 -0800 Organization: EasyStreet Online Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcT0g5rn+rrILBTvT32A4Kh3TR84GAAB5zGw In-Reply-To: <028e01c4f483$428dd120$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> Message-Id: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: johnb@easystreet.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 07:35:47 -0000 Check out http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user interface. (MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up things Adaware and Spybot missed. -John From ron@cobi.biz Thu Jan 6 23:58:53 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j077wrms021418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328B82951A; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:58:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: , "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:58:26 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f48e$b0615a40$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 07:58:53 -0000 Thank you John! Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of John Beaston Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:36 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Check out http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user interface. (MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up things Adaware and Spybot missed. -John _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From billman@hevanet.com Fri Jan 7 05:58:23 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07DuN1h092832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billman@hevanet.com) Received: from smtpdelivery.easystreet.com (smtpdelivery.easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EEA6DC00D for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.easystreet.com (smtpfilter03 [10.32.1.3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtpdelivery.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D58845F31 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15]) by mx.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5381C2F01AA for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from cjvwp01 (ts04-ip149.hevanet.com [130.94.165.62]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id j07DuDm44611 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001a01c4f4c0$a9aecd40$3ea55e82@cjvwp01> From: "Chris B Billman" To: "grovenet@grovenet.org mailing list" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:56:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j07DuN1h092832 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] : The rest of the story goes like this: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:58:24 -0000 : The rest of the story goes like this: : : of course this old man became well known around his villages and the : nearby villages. In fact he became quite a celebrity. And in ancient days : your name was chosen based on your trade or some other pertinent : information about you, so this old man became known as Shun Dan Lao Ren, : or Old man with balls remaining. Shun Dan Lao Ren can also be known as : old man christmas, or santa claus : : : love, : : chris : From billman@hevanet.com Fri Jan 7 06:03:00 2005 Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07E10Ju093687 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:03:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billman@hevanet.com) Received: from cjvwp01 (ts04-ip149.hevanet.com [130.94.165.62]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id j07E0xm46340 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:00:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003a01c4f4c1$5389c5e0$3ea55e82@cjvwp01> From: "Chris B Billman" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:01:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j07E10Ju093687 Subject: [Grovenet] The rest of the story goes like this: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:03:00 -0000 : The rest of the story goes like this: : : of course this old man became well known around his villages and the : nearby villages. In fact he became quite a celebrity. And in ancient days : your name was chosen based on your trade or some other pertinent : information about you, so this old man became known as Shun Dan Lao Ren, : or Old man with balls remaining. Shun Dan Lao Ren can also be known as : old man christmas, or santa claus : : : love, : : chris : From billman@hevanet.com Fri Jan 7 06:53:20 2005 Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07ErKqP003714 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billman@hevanet.com) Received: from cjvwp01 (ts04-ip149.hevanet.com [130.94.165.62]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id j07E08m46051 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:00:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003401c4f4c1$3524dbd0$3ea55e82@cjvwp01> From: "Chris B Billman" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:00:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j07ErKqP003714 Subject: [Grovenet] Chinese word for merry xmas is X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:53:23 -0000 : You might like this, the Chinese word for merry xmas is Shun Dan Kuale, : Kuale means very happy. So Shun Dan is Christmas, well in Chinese many : words are pronounced the same, so while Shun Dan means Christmas, Dan also : means egg, and Shun also means remaining. The Chinese love making fun of : their language more than we do, so there is a story that goes something : like this: : : In the winter an old man had to take a leak really bad, he couldn't hold : it, and there was not a bathroom around. So he had no choice he whipped it : out and started relieving himself. It was so cold though, and the man was : so old, and his circulation wasn't so good that his dick froze solid as a : rock and broke off while he was pissing. He went to the doctor and the : doctor said only one thing to him "Shun Dan Kuale" which means, "be happy : your balls are still remaing", or "be happy you still have your balls". : : Love, : : Chris : From billman@hevanet.com Fri Jan 7 06:59:23 2005 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07ExN0Y004983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billman@hevanet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD7E2F7E0 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpdelivery.easystreet.com (smtpdelivery.easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A006DC00D for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.easystreet.com (smtpfilter03 [10.32.1.3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtpdelivery.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C23845FE8 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15]) by mx.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415452F01AA for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cjvwp01 (ts04-ip149.hevanet.com [130.94.165.62]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id j07DtRm44279 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001401c4f4c0$8e0113f0$3ea55e82@cjvwp01> From: "Chris B Billman" To: "grovenet@grovenet.org mailing list" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 05:55:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j07ExN0Y004983 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Chinese word for merry xmas is X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:59:24 -0000 Christopher is in China teaching for a few more years. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Chris B Billman" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:55 PM : You might like this, the Chinese word for merry xmas is Shun Dan Kuale, : Kuale means very happy. So Shun Dan is Christmas, well in Chinese many : words are pronounced the same, so while Shun Dan means Christmas, Dan also : means egg, and Shun also means remaining. The Chinese love making fun of : their language more than we do, so there is a story that goes something : like this: : : In the winter an old man had to take a leak really bad, he couldn't hold : it, and there was not a bathroom around. So he had no choice he whipped it : out and started relieving himself. It was so cold though, and the man was : so old, and his circulation wasn't so good that his dick froze solid as a : rock and broke off while he was pissing. He went to the doctor and the : doctor said only one thing to him "Shun Dan Kuale" which means, "be happy : your balls are still remaing", or "be happy you still have your balls". : : Love, : : Chris : From robert@vannattabros.com Fri Jan 7 07:16:27 2005 Received: from apollo.email.starband.net (apollo.email.starband.net [148.78.247.132]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07FGQ7d008264 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apollo.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07FHEdn022497 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: <072701c4f4cb$1515b8a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com><014f01c4f47a$e2455ac0$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net><069f01c4f480$4a1ca900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> <028e01c4f483$428dd120$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:09:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:16:28 -0000 Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage.---much like the financial situation of the state of Oregon.--driven by non-reoccurring tax revenues from the dot com bubble. If you spend into such a bubble as Oregon did, you have a big time head ache on the outside (as Oregon has). --- though because of the 'kicker' we didn't get spent clear to the outside edge of the bubble. If you cut taxes in the bubble, you avoid the agnony of whacking 'entitlements' on the outside, but sooner or later get to raise them again, but the post bubble tax increase pressure is really the same either way. If you spend into the bubble then the pressure of the 'entitlements'---any budget item is to raise taxes to maintain the bubble level of spending. --- the ratchet up effect. If you cut taxes in the bubble, then post bubble you can see the 'ratchet down' effect that some are complaining of. IF you have a perspective that any part of your paycheck that the government lets you keep is a 'taxloophole' then I suppose you are supportive of the ratchet up. If you perspective is otherwise, then you likely don't mind seeing the feds tighten up a little. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jo & david" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > I hear your comment that "Clinton sat on his backside". > > As a fiscal conservative when faced with a serious financial outlay for a major national program, would you prefer to address it > from the perspective of a budget surplus like we had in 2000, or rather face the Social Security problem with Bush's economic plan > of a record budget deficit AND a long term debt for a war in the Middle East? > > Some may see the question as a no-brainer. > > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert VanNatta" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > It comes down to having a plan. Everyone knows that SS has some serious > > problems due to changing demographics which will become harder to fix every > > year. Clinton sat on his backside > > for 8 years and never even mentioned a concept of an idea for a repair. the > > D's have had two presidential candidates and neither has mentioned any > > identifiable proposal to address the issues that we all know SS has. To > > this date I have heard no alternative to what Bush is rolling to. > > > > When there is a problem and only one plan around---which one is congress > > going to choose? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jo & david" > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:36 PM > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > > > > I would put my money on the same bunch of politicians who reformed > > Medicare. > > > > > > David > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bob Browning" > > > To: "Grovenet" > > > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:30 PM > > > Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > > > > > > > > > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP over > > Social Security!! Where you going to put your money?? > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn > > > > > > > > bob "getting older everyday" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Riskyvee@aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:22:38 2005 Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07GMbYC026972 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Riskyvee@aol.com) Received: from Riskyvee@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.111.410d986a (15864) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from aol.com (mow-d21.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.162]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v104.17) with ESMTP id MAILINID63-3df841deb74213a; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:22:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:22:26 -0500 From: Riskyvee@aol.com To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3E865AFB.4C1DA8C9.0081931E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.165.223.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:22:38 -0000 In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:15:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert VanNatta" writes: >It comes down to having a plan.      Everyone knows that SS has some serious >problems due to changing demographics which will become harder to fix every >year.    Clinton sat on his backside >for 8 years and never even mentioned a concept of an idea for a repair. Yes, he did. It was to leave it alone. Quit borrowing from it and let it accumulate. Create more jobs to feed into it. All of which are the exact opposite of the Shrub plan, which is to destroy it. I guess that means at least Bush isn't sitting on his backside, right? From Riskyvee@aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:28:08 2005 Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07GS7ut028340 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:28:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Riskyvee@aol.com) Received: from Riskyvee@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.76.4a14d250 (15875) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from aol.com (mow-d26.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.167]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v104.17) with ESMTP id MAILINID72-3e0341deb887e7; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:27:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:27:51 -0500 From: Riskyvee@aol.com To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FE69F2B.4B144470.0081931E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.165.223.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:28:08 -0000 In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert VanNatta" writes: >Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage Another absolutely astonishing comment! But wait! I see what you're doing! If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 deficit. Right? From Riskyvee@aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:36:03 2005 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07Ga2Mv030237 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:36:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Riskyvee@aol.com) Received: from Riskyvee@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.9.3af70cd1 (15874) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from aol.com (mow-d23.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.164]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v104.17) with ESMTP id MAILINID71-3e0241deb932224; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:30:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:30:42 -0500 From: Riskyvee@aol.com To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <34059493.0927BE81.0081931E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.165.223.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:36:03 -0000 In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Riskyvee@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert VanNatta" writes: > >>Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage > >Another absolutely astonishing comment! >But wait! I see what you're doing! >If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 deficit. Right? > Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's $1.6 TRILLION deficit. From ggsteele@gte.net Fri Jan 7 10:36:56 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07IatjA059509 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107183654.WMMU1106.out003.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy>; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:36:54 -0600 Message-ID: <001a01c4f4e7$dca59b80$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:36:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:36:54 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:36:56 -0000 Thanks, John! I used it, and it did get something the others miss; and SpyBot got something the MS anti-spyware missed. So, it's good to do them all ... Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Beaston=20 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'=20 Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:35 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Check out http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user = interface. (MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up = things Adaware and Spybot missed. -John _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Fri Jan 7 10:41:41 2005 Received: from mails09.megamailservers.com (mails09.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.209]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07IfeOG060651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails09.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j07IfRLJ021992; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:41:35 -0500 Message-ID: <004801c4f4e8$82080450$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:41:26 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:41:41 -0000 Looks good! Found a bunch. Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Beaston=20 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'=20 Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:35 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Check out http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user = interface. (MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up = things Adaware and Spybot missed. -John _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From j1welch@earthlink.net Fri Jan 7 10:47:11 2005 Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07IlB8V062033 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:47:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j1welch@earthlink.net) Received: from [65.102.193.248] (helo=comp48) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cmz8g-0007BJ-Pa; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:47:11 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE; b=pPRIv7X6fNU+sTGZK94CEefBgpCkPAc8PaigCh8oAzD3B3Mvr4x7O1RDXvO1jikx; Message-ID: <004601c4f4e9$11e20940$0500a8c0@domain.actdsltmp> From: "John Welch" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:45:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: cf823d76730f5447d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc14003b0251ec44e21a11b35954579955350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.102.193.248 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:47:12 -0000 From allnutt@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 10:50:23 2005 Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07IoMav063066 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107185022.JODZ10436.out012.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:50:22 -0600 Message-ID: <003101c4f5b3$2225a4e0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <34059493.0927BE81.0081931E@aol.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:51:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:50:20 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:50:23 -0000 My jaw was still on the floor after the "surplus was a mirage" comment and I wasn't sure how to respond. However I think you are on the right track. In our jabberwoky world of today where torture is love and war is peace, the trillions in deficit will not be a mirage allike Clinton's but they will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is already started. The only sad part is that 51% of the country will believe it. Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Riskyvee@aol.com writes: > >>In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert >>VanNatta" writes: >> >>>Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage >> >>Another absolutely astonishing comment! >>But wait! I see what you're doing! >>If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 >>deficit. Right? >> > > Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's $1.6 > TRILLION deficit. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 10:58:10 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07Iw8Bq065181 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107185807.IZNT24714.out010.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:58:07 -0600 Message-ID: <003801c4f5b4$37d94200$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050107060919.53700.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:59:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:58:06 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:58:10 -0000 So by trial and error and 400 thousand tons of missing plasticexplosives to work with, they are gathering data on how much explosive it takes to make smithereens out of a heavily armored Bradley. Let's just guess it was equal to one ton. Only 399,999 more Bradleys to go before they run out of ammo. 4 more years! Rah! Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Canon" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Out of Sight, Out of Mind (Who's mind, I ask?) > They were riding in a Bradley troop carrier. I think they are heavily > armored, unlike some humvees. They said the road side bomb must have been > really potent. It killed all seven soldiers aboard. > > Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:Two headlines. Links to the stories > if you're interested, but the headlines > told the tale: > > Used Body Armor Is Sought for U.S. Vehicles in Iraq > http://tinyurl.com/5ws5b > > Seven U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attack Near Baghdad > http://tinyurl.com/6wmd8 > > Like those infamous weapons of mass destruction, I suppose we're to > believe > that the armor was provided after the flap last month. > > Not in this America, I guess. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 11:15:56 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07JFt5B070128 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050107191554.XCBC1106.out003.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:15:54 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c4f5b6$b3ba4ac0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DDBBFD.8060109@jurislex.com><014f01c4f47a$e2455ac0$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net><069f01c4f480$4a1ca900$0300a8c0@WinProxy><028e01c4f483$428dd120$7000a8c0@dslverizon.net> <072701c4f4cb$1515b8a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:17:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:15:53 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:15:56 -0000 Robert, What nonsense. Just because Clinton's surplus may or may not have been duplicated in subsequent years, that does not make it any less real. I would prefer to have a 1 year surplus ala Clinton every now and then rather than continuous deficits. And don't forget that one of the reasons Bush gave for his spectacular tax cut was because surplusses were projected for umpteen years. So that would mean than Bush was promising a mirage as the basis for his policy. Oh wait, maybe I actually agree with you there! Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage.---much like > the > financial situation > of the state of Oregon.--driven by non-reoccurring tax revenues from the > dot > com bubble. > > If you spend into such a bubble as Oregon did, you have a big time head > ache > on the outside (as Oregon has). --- though because of the 'kicker' we > didn't get spent clear to the outside edge of the bubble. If you cut > taxes > in the bubble, you avoid the agnony of whacking 'entitlements' on the > outside, but sooner or later get to raise them again, but the post bubble > tax increase pressure is really the same either way. If you spend into > the > bubble then the pressure of the 'entitlements'---any budget item > is to raise taxes to maintain the bubble level of spending. --- the > ratchet up effect. If you cut taxes in the bubble, then post bubble you > can see the 'ratchet down' effect that some are complaining of. > > IF you have a perspective that any part of your paycheck that the > government > lets you keep is a 'taxloophole' then I suppose you are supportive of the > ratchet up. If you perspective is otherwise, then > you likely don't mind seeing the feds tighten up a little. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jo & david" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > > >> I hear your comment that "Clinton sat on his backside". >> >> As a fiscal conservative when faced with a serious financial outlay for a > major national program, would you prefer to address it >> from the perspective of a budget surplus like we had in 2000, or rather > face the Social Security problem with Bush's economic plan >> of a record budget deficit AND a long term debt for a war in the Middle > East? >> >> Some may see the question as a no-brainer. >> >> David >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert VanNatta" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? >> >> >> > It comes down to having a plan. Everyone knows that SS has some > serious >> > problems due to changing demographics which will become harder to fix > every >> > year. Clinton sat on his backside >> > for 8 years and never even mentioned a concept of an idea for a repair. > the >> > D's have had two presidential candidates and neither has mentioned any >> > identifiable proposal to address the issues that we all know SS has. > To >> > this date I have heard no alternative to what Bush is rolling to. >> > >> > When there is a problem and only one plan around---which one is >> > congress >> > going to choose? >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "jo & david" >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:36 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? >> > >> > >> > > I would put my money on the same bunch of politicians who reformed >> > Medicare. >> > > >> > > David >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Bob Browning" >> > > To: "Grovenet" >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:30 PM >> > > Subject: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? >> > > >> > > >> > > > Here comes the fight of the Century - The Republican Party vs. AARP > over >> > Social Security!! Where you going to put your money?? >> > > > >> > > > http://tinyurl.com/5cgpn >> > > > >> > > > bob "getting older everyday" browning >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ------ >> > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > GroveNet mailing list >> > > > GroveNet@rdrop.com >> > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > GroveNet mailing list >> > > GroveNet@rdrop.com >> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet@rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab@jurislex.com Fri Jan 7 13:38:47 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07LclkJ009284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE8C6DC017; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:38:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41DF0165.1090409@jurislex.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:38:45 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: johnb@easystreet.com, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program References: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> In-Reply-To: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:38:48 -0000 How odd!! I ran it and Adaware after my daily SpySweeper run and none of the three found anything on my machine today. Also, I have had no spyware in the last three months since putting on SpySweeper, buying the update service, and having it run automatically each morning at logon. Well worth the price as far as I am concerned, just due to the piece of mind alone!! bob "stick with the tried and true??" browning John Beaston wrote: >Check out > >http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm > >It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user interface. >(MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up things >Adaware and Spybot missed. >-John > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From efitz@earthlink.net Fri Jan 7 02:08:55 2005 Received: from aftermath.mail.pas.earthlink.net (aftermath.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.69]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j07A8smu043064 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 02:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from efitz@earthlink.net) Received: from pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.183]) by aftermath.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1CmnAx-00049T-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:00:43 -0800 Received: from 03-033.142.popsite.net ([66.248.122.33]) by pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Cmn92-0004uJ-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:58:45 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:01:15 -0800 From: Eldon Fitzgerald To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="B_3187893676_156506" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:05:10 -0800 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Missing X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:08:55 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3187893676_156506 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear neighbors: Our 11-year old dog disappeared from our yard in the Rogers Park area sometime between 8:30 pm and 10 pm Tuesday night (1/04). She is a very sweet gold & white shepherd/husky mix named Holly. A reward will be offered to anyone who returns her to us. 503-359-7505. Thank you, The Fitzgerald Family. --B_3187893676_156506-- From robert@vannattabros.com Fri Jan 7 17:08:11 2005 Received: from cepheus.email.starband.net (cepheus.email.starband.net [148.78.247.123]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0818AoT057231 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by cepheus.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0819tih007049 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:10:06 -0500 Message-ID: <08a801c4f51d$73b95900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <34059493.0927BE81.0081931E@aol.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:00:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:08:11 -0000 Neither is particularly significant in the context of Social security. The issue with social security is that it is an unfunded defined benefits plan, and changing demographics will force it over a cliff 20 years from now. What the budget looks like now isn't going to change the dynamics of the shift in 'workers to retirees' that is going to happen. There is a massive unfunded unbooked liability for security benefits that can't be paid as the system is presently structured. we have already seen the PERS problems---or do you think there wasn't a problem. Before the next few years is over, we will see most of the airline pension programs flop over and end up on the federal treasury becuse they are underfunded. the message here is very clear: Defined benefit plans don't work over time. While they are very popular with the beneficiaries, shifting mortality rates, and fluxuating interest rates doom these plans. The doom however in this case is well out into the future. current budgets---good or bad simply aren't the issue. In one economic sense there is no such thing as 'savings'. The goods and services required to support the retirees 20 years from now will be the goods and services produced 20 years from now. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Riskyvee@aol.com writes: > > >In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert VanNatta" writes: > > > >>Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage > > > >Another absolutely astonishing comment! > >But wait! I see what you're doing! > >If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 deficit. Right? > > > > Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's $1.6 TRILLION deficit. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Fri Jan 7 17:21:11 2005 Received: from mails12.megamailservers.com (mails12.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j081L9Zm060253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails12.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j081Kq9j012679 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:21:07 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c4f520$524a0dc0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <34059493.0927BE81.0081931E@aol.com> <08a801c4f51d$73b95900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:20:50 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:21:12 -0000 What would happen if the Government stopped borrowing from and repaid = the SS account? Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert VanNatta=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Neither is particularly significant in the context of Social security. = The issue with social security is that it is an unfunded defined benefits plan, and changing = demographics will force it over a cliff 20 years from now. What the budget looks = like now isn't going to change the dynamics of the shift in 'workers to = retirees' that is going to happen. There is a massive unfunded unbooked liability for security benefits = that can't be paid as the system is presently structured. we have = already seen the PERS problems---or do you think there wasn't a problem. = Before the next few years is over, we will see most of the airline pension = programs flop over and end up on the federal treasury becuse they are = underfunded. the message here is very clear: Defined benefit plans don't work = over time. While they are very popular with the beneficiaries, shifting mortality rates, and fluxuating interest rates doom these plans. The doom however in this case is well out into the future. = current budgets---good or bad simply aren't the issue. In one economic sense there is no such thing as 'savings'. The goods and services required to support the retirees 20 years from = now will be the goods and services produced 20 years from now. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Riskyvee@aol.com writes: > > >In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, = "Robert VanNatta" writes: > > > >>Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage > > > >Another absolutely astonishing comment! > >But wait! I see what you're doing! > >If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 deficit. Right? > > > > Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's = $1.6 TRILLION deficit. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Fri Jan 7 17:23:15 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j081NEvB060638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:23:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D666DC00C; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:23:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41DF35FE.5050305@jurislex.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:23:10 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet , Mary DeLoria Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------040608020601020606020605" Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:23:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040608020601020606020605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative commentators to pump the Prez's favorite programs . . .

No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies pay a black commentator to pump the program whenever possible:

http://tinyurl.com/5anlm

And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the commentator - Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk suggests he must be a lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big difference? ! ? !

The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of Nazi Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and telling us how to think!!

bob "really getting nervous!!" browning
TRANSCRIPTS

AMERICAN MORNING

TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid

Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York.

<snip>

HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by the White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had no idea it was happening.

Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the story in a moment next.

<snip>

HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting money to promote President Bush's education policy.

According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated broadcast. Some are now suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and possibly a congressional investigation.

Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are you?

HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money?

WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And what we were doing, they used our media. We own our syndication, the rights side, where we syndicate our shows all of the country.

And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And especially, in particular markets that they wanted this "no child left behind" to be on their airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what they paid for.

And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for -- I made it clear because it's something that really believed in as a commentator, something I wrote often about -- that I would use my contacts with people that I knew in different media outlets from time to time to get them to talk about "no child left behind"...

HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here.

Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your viewers about the transaction?

WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves that we use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I can't recall whether I disclosed it to the audience or not.

HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, right? And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. And if you did present those arguments and were getting money in return for it, why not tell people?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I did not want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a very clear that we had a professional relationship where "no child left behind" was using our media as advertising.

It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at the article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They used our media.

We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we produced -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute commercial. He had two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our commercial reel.

HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry.

You made money off this, right?

WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes.

HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the company. How often would you...

WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the company. There's a difference.

HEMMER: OK, well, even better.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you talked about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm on CNN, we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, when I'm on "CNN MORNING."

I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked about "no child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's very possible. I'm certainly going to talk about it because I'm an advocate for it.

HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the 18th of October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you recall that discussion? Do you recall that conversation?

WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, I appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an issue that was consistently in the media for the last two years.

HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how someone, you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this to be unethical possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, you're promoting values and in ideas and programs in exchange for cash?

WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it clear in my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can certainly understand how some people would feel that it was unethical.

You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you need to understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can not use paid advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, many of our affiliates will not run it.

In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. In the history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that we've ever had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank out of my home town of Marion, South Carolina.

It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But the reason why this was able to work because not only was this a public service announcement, and so it passed the muster for some of our affiliates.

But I understand the conflict...

HEMMER: Sure.

WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned.

HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of time.
Would you do it again?

WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with...

HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you tell your listeners and viewers?

WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be more vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our programming. And I definitely should acknowledge that to the public, yes.

HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to get your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me.

<snip>

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VnRH3n2xGC6rQ3XO1LdcBOdB3buifOo2P1FVIAAN0KN1LNm0ACTSiAMcnQyRQ0nEWHJ7BFDf C2+Iq0Ju75UXCIAKDKCDDK4SOWOpJZvyokpeasWVsAymZmapy1sK85jITKYyl8nMZsogAgA7 --------------040608020601020606020605 Content-Type: image/gif; name="TargetImage" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: Content-Disposition: inline; filename="TargetImage" R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw== --------------040608020601020606020605-- From chuck@grovenet.net Fri Jan 7 17:38:37 2005 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j081caKc064250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dialup-ras7-62.pdx.or.uspops.net [216.239.178.62]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j081cYpK007232 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:38:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c4f523$539f5d30$3eb2efd8@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050107073537.8B3866DC00C@smtp.easystreet.com> <41DF0165.1090409@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:42:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:38:37 -0000 Since switching to Firefox as my browser I rarely have to run any spy sweeps... bye bye Internet Explorer! Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2405 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Microsoft anti-spyware program > How odd!! I ran it and Adaware after my daily SpySweeper run and none > of the three found anything on my machine today. Also, I have had no > spyware in the last three months since putting on SpySweeper, buying the > update service, and having it run automatically each morning at logon. > > Well worth the price as far as I am concerned, just due to the piece of > mind alone!! > > bob "stick with the tried and true??" browning > > John Beaston wrote: > > >Check out > > > >http://tinyurl.com/3sfdm > > > >It's a beta MS anti-spyware program. It has a nice clean user interface. > >(MS bought the company.) I tried it on my machines and it picked up things > >Adaware and Spybot missed. > >-John > > > >_______________________________________________ > >GroveNet mailing list > >GroveNet@rdrop.com > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 17:38:44 2005 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j081chf7064265 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 93698 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 01:38:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tbq8iC3kHzqv+cUTQbKkEtblJnb16XWjp9vbcY/gsOrnMQMdVuFKe1ddDuIkb3cN+bYxML2K9QFFI61hm82XZ9T6lyF6Qs5WduptwGZRZD8wRsmC1O4xcb+VQHVRtMKpXsBHVK21aVq3xt2hPg7lMhLPjPzLb5vMPXCdaM2kEtU= ; Message-ID: <20050108013837.93696.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:38:37 PST Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:38:37 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41DF35FE.5050305@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:38:44 -0000 Gosh Bob, if they can't get support from teachers and administrators, colleges and education experts, what are they to do? I mean, they NEED the support. How generous that they buy it. Isn't that putting your money where your mouth is? Or something? Seig heil! Bob Browning wrote: And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative commentators to pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies pay a black commentator to pump the program whenever possible: http://tinyurl.com/5anlm And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the commentator - Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk suggests he must be a lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big difference? ! ? ! The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of Nazi Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and telling us how to think!! bob "really getting nervous!!" browning if(location.hostname.indexOf('edition.')>-1) {cnnAddCSI('cnnBreakingNewsBanner','/.element/ssi/intl/breaking_news/1.1/banner.exclude.html');} else {cnnAddCSI('cnnBreakingNewsBanner','/.element/ssi/www/breaking_news/1.1/banner.exclude.html');} [input] [input] AMERICAN MORNING TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by the White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had no idea it was happening. Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the story in a moment next. HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting money to promote President Bush's education policy. According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated broadcast. Some are now suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and possibly a congressional investigation. Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you. ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are you? HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money? WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And what we were doing, they used our media. We own our syndication, the rights side, where we syndicate our shows all of the country. And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And especially, in particular markets that they wanted this "no child left behind" to be on their airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what they paid for. And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for -- I made it clear because it's something that really believed in as a commentator, something I wrote often about -- that I would use my contacts with people that I knew in different media outlets from time to time to get them to talk about "no child left behind"... HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here. Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your viewers about the transaction? WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves that we use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I can't recall whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, right? And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. And if you did present those arguments and were getting money in return for it, why not tell people? WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I did not want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a very clear that we had a professional relationship where "no child left behind" was using our media as advertising. It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at the article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They used our media. We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we produced -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute commercial. He had two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our commercial reel. HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. You made money off this, right? WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the company. How often would you... WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the company. There's a difference. HEMMER: OK, well, even better. WILLIAMS: Yes. HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you talked about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm on CNN, we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, when I'm on "CNN MORNING." I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked about "no child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's very possible. I'm certainly going to talk about it because I'm an advocate for it. HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the 18th of October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you recall that discussion? Do you recall that conversation? WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, I appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an issue that was consistently in the media for the last two years. HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how someone, you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this to be unethical possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, you're promoting values and in ideas and programs in exchange for cash? WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it clear in my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can certainly understand how some people would feel that it was unethical. You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you need to understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can not use paid advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, many of our affiliates will not run it. In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. In the history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that we've ever had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank out of my home town of Marion, South Carolina. It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But the reason why this was able to work because not only was this a public service announcement, and so it passed the muster for some of our affiliates. But I understand the conflict... HEMMER: Sure. WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned. HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of time. Would you do it again? WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with... HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you tell your listeners and viewers? WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be more vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our programming. And I definitely should acknowledge that to the public, yes. HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to get your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, appreciate it. WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Fri Jan 7 17:53:04 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j081r3sG067245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:53:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69252B01A for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:52:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:52:40 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000401c4f524$c15cf8e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002701c4f520$524a0dc0$6601a8c0@700x> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Grovenet] The 2004 Darwin Awards X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:53:04 -0000 A good friend who follows these things closely (thereby spending his time more productively than I who simply follow the doin's of "W" in the news) sent me this today: Hard to believe, but another year has passed. Once again, it's time for the Darwin Award Nominees. The Darwins are awarded every year to the persons who died in the most stupid manner, thereby removing themselves from the gene pool. This year's nine nominees are: Nominee No. 1: [San Jose Mercury News]: An unidentified man, using a shotgun like a club to break a former girlfriend's windshield, accidentally shot himself to death when the gun discharged, blowing a hole in his gut. Nominee No. 2: [Kalamazoo Gazette]: James Burns, 34, (a mechanic) of Alamo,MI, was killed in March as he was trying to repair what police describe as a "farm-type truck." Burns got a friend to drive the truck on a highway while Burns hung underneath so that he could ascertain the source of a troubling noise. Burns' clothes caught on something, however, and the other man found Burns "wrapped in the drive shaft." Nominee No. 3: [Hickory Daily Record]: Ken Charles Barger, 47, accidentally shot himself to death in December in Newton, NC. Awakening to the sound of a ringing telephone beside his bed, he reached for the phone but grabbed instead a Smith & Wesson 38 Special, which discharged when he drew it to his ear. (For whatever reason, residents of Southern states always seem to figure prominently among the Darwin nominees.) Nominee No. 4: [UPI, Toronto]: Police said a lawyer demonstrating the safety of windows in a downtown Toronto skyscraper crashed through a pane with his shoulder and plunged 24 floors to his death. A police spokesman said Garry Hoy, 39, fell into the courtyard of the Toronto Dominion Bank Tower early Friday evening as he was explaining the strength of the building's windows to visiting law students. Hoy previously has conducted demonstrations of window strength according to police reports. Peter Lawson, managing partner of the firm Holden Day, told the Toronto Sun newspaper that Hoy was "one of the best and brightest" members of the 200-man association. (Nice to see another Canadian province getting into the awards...The Maritimes always have been heavily involved.) Nominee No. 5: [Bloomberg News Service]: A terrible diet and a room with no ventilation are being blamed for the death of a man who was killed by his own gas emissions. There was no mark on his body, and an autopsy showed large amounts of methane gas in his system. His diet had consisted primarily of beans and cabbage (and a couple of other things). It was just the right combination of foods. It appears that the man died in his sleep from breathing the poisonous cloud that was hanging over his bed. Had he been outside or had his windows been opened, it wouldn't have been fatal. But the man was shut up in his nearly airtight bedroom. According to the article, "He was a big man with a huge capacity for creating "this deadly gas." Three of the rescuers got sick, and one was hospitalized. Nominee No. 6: [The News of the Weird]: Michael Anderson Godwin made News of the Weird posthumously. He had spent several years awaiting South Carolina's electric chair on a murder conviction before having his sentence reduced to life in prison. While sitting on a metal toilet in his cell attempting to fix his small TV set, he bit into a wire and was electrocuted. (South Carolina entrants are always perennial favorites.) Nominee No. 7: [The Indianapolis Star]: A cigarette lighter may have triggered a fatal explosion in Dunkirk, IN. A Jay County man, using a cigarette lighter to check the barrel of a muzzle loader, was killed Monday night when the weapon discharged in his face, sheriff's investigators said. Gregory David Pryor, 19, died in his parents' rural Dunkirk home at about 11:30 PM. Investigators said Pryor was cleaning a 54-caliber muzzleloader that had not been firing properly. He was using the lighter to look into the barrel when the gunpowder ignited. Nominee No. 8: [Reuters, Mississauga, Ontario]: A man cleaning a bird feeder on the balcony of his condominium apartment in this Toronto suburb slipped and fell 23 stories to his death. Stefan Macko, 55, was standing on a wheeled chair when the accident occurred, said Inspector D'Arcy Honer of the Peel Regional Police. "It appears that the chair moved, and he went over the balcony," Honer said. (Another Ontario entry....I wonder if people are moving there from the Maritime Provinces.) Finally, THE WINNER!!!: [Arkansas Democrat Gazette]: Two local men were injured when their pickup truck left the road and struck a tree near Cotton Patch on State Highway 38 early Monday. Woodruff County deputy Dovey Snyder reported the accident shortly after midnight Monday. Thurston Poole, 33, of Des Arc, and Billy Ray Wallis, 38, of Little Rock, were returning to Des Arc after a frog gigging trip on an overcast Sunday night when Poole's pickup truck headlights malfunctioned. The two men concluded that the headlight fuse on the older-model truck had burned out. As a replacement fuse was not available, Wallis noticed that the .22 caliber bullet from his pistol fit perfectly into the fuse box next to the steering-wheel column. Upon inserting the bullet the headlights again began to operate properly, and the two men proceeded on eastbound toward the White River Bridge. After traveling approximately 20 miles, and just before crossing the river, the bullet apparently overheated, discharged, and struck Poole in the testicles. The vehicle swerved sharply right, exiting the pavement, and striking a tree. Poole suffered only minor cuts and abrasions from the accident, but will require extensive surgery to repair the damage to his testicles, which will never operate as intended. Wallis sustained a broken clavicle and was treated and released. "Thank God we weren't on that bridge when Thurston shot his balls off, or we might both be dead," stated Wallis. "I've been a trooper for 10 years in this part of the world, but this is a first for me. I can't believe that those two would admit how this accident happened," said Snyder. Upon being notified of the wreck, Lavinia (Poole's wife) asked how many frogs the boys had caught and did anyone get them from the truck??? (Though Poole and Wallis did not die as a result of their misadventure as normally required by Darwin Award Official Rules, it can be argued that Poole DID, in fact, effectively remove himself from the gene pool.) From robert@vannattabros.com Fri Jan 7 18:23:15 2005 Received: from osiris.email.starband.net (osiris.email.starband.net [148.78.247.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j082NFCH073043 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by osiris.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j082MaJs012528; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:22:52 -0500 Message-ID: <091601c4f527$e2fd5780$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Ed Davie" , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <34059493.0927BE81.0081931E@aol.com><08a801c4f51d$73b95900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> <002701c4f520$524a0dc0$6601a8c0@700x> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:14:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 02:23:16 -0000 Social security would go broke faster as it would have no income. Government bonds are the only investment that social security account has. The social secuirty account buys bonds which are repaid with interest. If the government boycotted the social security fund and didn't sell bonds to it---and redeemed the bonds that it had social security would collapse at once----as interest income from the time the money comes in until it is pay out in benefits is important. Frankly I would hope that all the money that SS has is loaned to the federal treasury all the time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? What would happen if the Government stopped borrowing from and repaid the SS account? Ed Davie ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert VanNatta To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Neither is particularly significant in the context of Social security. The issue with social security is that it is an unfunded defined benefits plan, and changing demographics will force it over a cliff 20 years from now. What the budget looks like now isn't going to change the dynamics of the shift in 'workers to retirees' that is going to happen. There is a massive unfunded unbooked liability for security benefits that can't be paid as the system is presently structured. we have already seen the PERS problems---or do you think there wasn't a problem. Before the next few years is over, we will see most of the airline pension programs flop over and end up on the federal treasury becuse they are underfunded. the message here is very clear: Defined benefit plans don't work over time. While they are very popular with the beneficiaries, shifting mortality rates, and fluxuating interest rates doom these plans. The doom however in this case is well out into the future. current budgets---good or bad simply aren't the issue. In one economic sense there is no such thing as 'savings'. The goods and services required to support the retirees 20 years from now will be the goods and services produced 20 years from now. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? > In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Riskyvee@aol.com writes: > > >In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert VanNatta" writes: > > > >>Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage > > > >Another absolutely astonishing comment! > >But wait! I see what you're doing! > >If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 deficit. Right? > > > > Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's $1.6 TRILLION deficit. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Fri Jan 7 19:19:34 2005 Received: from apophis.email.starband.net (apophis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.50]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j083JWNf083745 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apophis.email.starband.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j083KAgU003439 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:20:17 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c4f531$597bba60$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41DF35FE.5050305@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:07:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 03:19:34 -0000 were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of his opponents to = endorse him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks insisting on = being paid off before doing anything. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Browning=20 To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria=20 Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! !=20 And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative = commentators to pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies = pay a black commentator to pump the program whenever possible: http://tinyurl.com/5anlm And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the = commentator - Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk = suggests he must be a lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's = the owner!!" Big difference? ! ? ! The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of = Nazi Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and = telling us how to think!! bob "really getting nervous!!" browning =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 AMERICAN MORNING TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL = FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York.=20 HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by = the White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had = no idea it was happening.=20 Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the = story in a moment next. HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting = money to promote President Bush's education policy.=20 According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid = $240,000 to plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated = broadcast. Some are now suggesting this deal raises ethical questions = and possibly a congressional investigation.=20 Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you. ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are = you? HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money? WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em = (ph). And what we were doing, they used our media. We own our = syndication, the rights side, where we syndicate our shows all of the = country.=20 And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And = especially, in particular markets that they wanted this "no child left = behind" to be on their airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what = they paid for.=20 And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for = -- I made it clear because it's something that really believed in as a = commentator, something I wrote often about -- that I would use my = contacts with people that I knew in different media outlets from time to = time to get them to talk about "no child left behind"... HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here. Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your = viewers about the transaction? WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves = that we use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I = can't recall whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, = right? And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. = And if you did present those arguments and were getting money in return = for it, why not tell people? WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I = did not want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a = very clear that we had a professional relationship where "no child left = behind" was using our media as advertising.=20 It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at = the article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They = used our media.=20 We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we = produced -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute = commercial. He had two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our = commercial reel. HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. You made money off this, right? WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the = company. How often would you... WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the = company. There's a difference.=20 HEMMER: OK, well, even better. WILLIAMS: Yes. HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you = talked about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm = on CNN, we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, = when I'm on "CNN MORNING." I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked = about "no child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's = very possible. I'm certainly going to talk about it because I'm an = advocate for it. HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the = 18th of October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you = recall that discussion? Do you recall that conversation? WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, = I appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an = issue that was consistently in the media for the last two years. HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how = someone, you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this = to be unethical possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from = it if, indeed, you're promoting values and in ideas and programs in = exchange for cash? WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it = clear in my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can = certainly understand how some people would feel that it was unethical.=20 You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you = need to understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can = not use paid advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, = many of our affiliates will not run it.=20 In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. = In the history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that = we've ever had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, = "Forest (ph) Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank = out of my home town of Marion, South Carolina.=20 It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I = understand. But the reason why this was able to work because not only = was this a public service announcement, and so it passed the muster for = some of our affiliates.=20 But I understand the conflict... HEMMER: Sure. WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned.=20 HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm = out of time.=20 Would you do it again? WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with... HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you = tell your listeners and viewers? WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be = more vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our = programming. And I definitely should acknowledge that to the public, = yes. HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to = get your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, = appreciate it. WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me. =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 19:34:17 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j083YGh4086462 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 15966 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 03:34:11 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=YMv5DBcj0FMUtWiDioSHYskb10DL2Z7rSGqSYDny4JXw6ncGtJhTXP9b2eBCmVbOGezMQF61LtuS91sJVzaY92Z9cOgaonG8jQj/L+aJSczRVpSVhQN0UUjfX2+8C6LUkrNOaEVbBgTPxz4PFfgXmR+Sh/yKhZBjWCFpSKDEaPo= ; Message-ID: <20050108033411.15964.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:34:11 PST Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:34:11 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <001601c4f531$597bba60$0300a8c0@WinProxy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 03:34:18 -0000 I haven't heard about this. Please provide the details, with appropriate links of course. --- Robert VanNatta wrote: > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one > of his opponents to endorse him. Seems to be > a common thread here. Blacks insisting on > being paid off before doing anything. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay > conservative commentators to pump the Prez's > favorite programs . . . > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own > two feet, so the Bushies pay a black > commentator to pump the program whenever > possible: > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN > interview with the commentator - Armstrong > Williams. Try to read it - his double talk > suggests he must be a lawyer!! "He's not an > employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big > difference? ! ? ! > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I > am in the early stages of Nazi Germany, with > the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news > and telling us how to think!! > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush > Agenda After Being Paid > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY > MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE > UPDATED. > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New > York. > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk > show host now being paid by the White House to > push an agenda on education. Listeners > apparently had no idea it was happening. > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the > focus here. His side of the story in a moment > next. > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator > reportedly admitting accepting money to promote > President Bush's education policy. > > According to "USA Today" today, > Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to plug > the "no child left behind" act in his > syndicated broadcast. Some are now suggesting > this deal raises ethical questions and possibly > a congressional investigation. > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., > and good morning to you. > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: > Good morning, Bill. How are you? > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do > in return for the money? > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were > subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And what we > were doing, they used our media. We own our > syndication, the rights side, where we > syndicate our shows all of the country. > > And with many of the affiliates, we > have to pay them. And especially, in particular > markets that they wanted this "no child left > behind" to be on their airwaves, they paid for > advertising time is what they paid for. > > And in addition to that, which is what > our contract called for -- I made it clear > because it's something that really believed in > as a commentator, something I wrote often about > -- that I would use my contacts with people > that I knew in different media outlets from > time to time to get them to talk about "no > child left behind"... > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of > questions here. > > Did you disclose to your readers, did > you disclose to your viewers about the > transaction? > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to > different people whose airwaves that we use. I > disclosed it to different commentators. I don't > -- I can't recall whether I disclosed it to the > audience or not. > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job > is to persuade people, right? And part of your > job is to present arguments that you believe > in. And if you did present those arguments and > were getting money in return for it, why not > tell people? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as > if it was an issue that I did not want to tell > them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a > very clear that we had a professional > relationship where "no child left behind" was > using our media as advertising. > > It was advertising. It's not as if we > were paid. People look at the article and say > we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. > They used our media. > > We taped a one minute commercial with > Secretary Paige where we produced -- we did for > about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute > commercial. He had two, one minute commercial > spots in our shows, on our commercial reel. > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > You made money off this, right? > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made > money, yes. > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you > are employed by the company. How often would > you... > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by > the company, I own the company. There's a > difference. > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on > CNN and promote what you talked about, or wrote > about or, in turn, were paid for? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't > recall that because when I'm on CNN, we talk > about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf > Blitzer's show, when I'm on "CNN MORNING." > > I can't even recall if there is ever > the time that we talked about "no child left > behind." But certainly if the issue arises, > it's very possible. I'm certainly going to talk > about it because I'm an advocate for it. > > HEMMER: Through our research, it > appears back in October, on the 18th of > October, you came on and talked about that very > thing. Do you recall that discussion? Do you > recall that conversation? > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but > it's quite possible. I mean, I appear on your > broadcast quite often. And "no child left > behind" is an issue that was consistently in > the media for the last two years. > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. > Can you understand how someone, you know, > colleagues in the business here would consider > this to be unethical possibly, perhaps with a > bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, > you're promoting values and in ideas and > programs in exchange for cash? > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand > that. In fact, I made it clear in my interview > with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can > certainly understand how some people would feel > that it was unethical. > > You know, the thing about our shows, > Bill, which I think you need to understand, > many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we > can not use paid advertisers. Unless it's a > public service announcement, many of our > affiliates will not run it. > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of > our commercials are PSAs. In the history of The > Right Side Productions, the only advertisers > that we've ever had is the National Rifle > Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson > Brothers Bank out of my home town of Marion, > South Carolina. > > It's rare that we have paid > advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But the > reason why this was able to work because not > only was this a public service announcement, > and so it passed the muster for some of our > affiliates. > > But I understand the conflict... > > HEMMER: Sure. > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why > people would be concerned. > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got > to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of time. > Would you do it again? > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have > no problem with... > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would > you tell folks? Would you tell your listeners > and viewers? > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I > have an obligation to be more vociferous about > the fact that they are advertising on our > programming. And I definitely should > acknowledge that to the public, yes. > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and > clearing it up. We wanted to get your side of > the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, > Armstrong, appreciate it. > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate > your having me. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From k.wilke@comcast.net Fri Jan 7 20:23:50 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j084NotO096029 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:23:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.wilke@comcast.net) Received: from [67.169.192.219] (c-67-169-192-219.client.comcast.net[67.169.192.219]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005010804183901500ng55be>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 04:18:39 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:17:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! From: Kurt Wilke To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001601c4f531$597bba60$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:23:50 -0000 Robert: Don't you think that was a very racist remark you made????? Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere for that matter. Kurt Wilke On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of his opponents to endorse > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks insisting on being paid off > before doing anything. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative commentators to > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies pay a > black commentator to pump the program whenever possible: > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the commentator - > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk suggests he must be a > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big difference? > ! ? ! > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of Nazi > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and telling us > how to think!! > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by the > White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had no idea > it was happening. > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the story > in a moment next. > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting money to > promote President Bush's education policy. > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to > plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated broadcast. Some are now > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and possibly a congressional > investigation. > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you. > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are you? > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money? > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And > what we were doing, they used our media. We own our syndication, the rights > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the country. > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And especially, in > particular markets that they wanted this "no child left behind" to be on their > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what they paid for. > > And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for -- I made > it clear because it's something that really believed in as a commentator, > something I wrote often about -- that I would use my contacts with people that > I knew in different media outlets from time to time to get them to talk about > "no child left behind"... > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here. > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your viewers about > the transaction? > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves that we > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I can't recall > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, right? > And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. And if you > did present those arguments and were getting money in return for it, why not > tell people? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I did not > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a very clear that > we had a professional relationship where "no child left behind" was using our > media as advertising. > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at the > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They used our > media. > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we produced > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute commercial. He had > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our commercial reel. > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > You made money off this, right? > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the company. How > often would you... > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the company. > There's a difference. > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you talked > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm on CNN, > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, when I'm on > "CNN MORNING." > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked about "no > child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's very possible. I'm > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an advocate for it. > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the 18th of > October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you recall that > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, I > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an issue > that was consistently in the media for the last two years. > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how someone, > you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this to be unethical > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, you're > promoting values and in ideas and programs in exchange for cash? > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it clear in > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can certainly understand > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you need to > understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can not use paid > advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, many of our affiliates > will not run it. > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. In the > history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that we've ever > had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank out of my home > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But > the reason why this was able to work because not only was this a public > service announcement, and so it passed the muster for some of our affiliates. > > But I understand the conflict... > > HEMMER: Sure. > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned. > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of > time. > Would you do it again? > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with... > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you tell > your listeners and viewers? > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be more > vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our programming. And I > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, yes. > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to get > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, > appreciate it. > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 22:03:26 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0863Qal016177 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108060325.TUMH21228.out007.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:03:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:03:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The 2004 Darwin Awards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000401c4f524$c15cf8e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:03:24 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:03:27 -0000 Two ideas came from reading this to our family. I wondered if any of these people voted for President in prior elections. My wife noted that all of the nominees were men. David On Friday, January 7, 2005, at 05:52 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > A good friend who follows these things closely (thereby spending his > time more productively than I who simply follow the doin's of "W" in > the news) sent me this today: > > Hard to believe, but another year has passed. Once again, it's time > for the Darwin Award Nominees. The Darwins are awarded every year to > the persons who died in the most stupid manner, thereby removing > themselves from the gene pool. > ... From jo.david@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 22:24:12 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j086OB7Q020305 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108062410.ONXW28362.out005.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:24:10 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:24:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <072701c4f4cb$1515b8a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:24:10 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:24:12 -0000 On Friday, January 7, 2005, at 07:09 AM, Robert VanNatta wrote: > Remember, the so-called surplus of 2000 was mostly a mirage.---much > like the financial situation of the state of Oregon.--driven by > non-reoccurring tax revenues from the dot com bubble. Avoiding the question? We know that we have a problem with Social Security. Is the prognosis for a workable resolution improved by having a balanced budget, or by having a record deficit and open ended expenses for a Middle East War? David From jo.david@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 22:40:21 2005 Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j086eLvT023689 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108064019.JSCB24088.out009.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:40:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:40:18 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who's stronger ? ? ? ? ? ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <08a801c4f51d$73b95900$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Message-Id: <297D2F52-6140-11D9-941B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:40:19 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:40:22 -0000 >> If Clinton's $1.6 trillion surplus was a mirage, so is Bush's $1.6 >> deficit. Right? >> >> Excuse me. Obviously (except for maybe to Robert), I meant Bush's >> $1.6 TRILLION deficit. _______________________________________________ On Friday, January 7, 2005, at 05:00 PM, Robert VanNatta wrote: > Neither is particularly significant in the context of Social security. > The issue with social security is that it is an unfunded defined > benefits plan, and changing demographics will force it over a cliff 20 > years from now. What the budget looks like now isn't going to change > the dynamics of the shift in 'workers to retirees' that is going to > happen. You may have forgotten the mantra of conservatives, that excessive government borrowing damages the economy and reduces our future economic growth. $1.6 Trillion debt has to have an effect on our future economic situation. Or else, the arguments of fiscal conservatives for the last fifty years is false. What do you think? > > There is a massive unfunded unbooked liability for security benefits > that can't be paid as the system is presently structured. we have > already seen the PERS problems---or do you think there wasn't a > problem. Before the next few years is over, we will see most of the > airline pension programs flop over and end up on the federal treasury > becuse they are underfunded. If you are concerned about massive unfunded unbooked liabilities, have you considered the President's invasion of Iraq? > ... > In one economic sense there is no such thing as 'savings'. Right, it usually represents a transfer of assets with the promise of a return at some later date. The question remains, will there be assets available later to fun the repayment. > The goods and services required to support the retirees 20 years from > now will be the goods and services produced 20 years from now. > From what country? David From jo.david@verizon.net Fri Jan 7 23:23:47 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j087NkDt032779 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108072345.NNCE8290.out004.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:23:45 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:23:30 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Chinese word for merry xmas is Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <001401c4f4c0$8e0113f0$3ea55e82@cjvwp01> Message-Id: <329DAF7A-6146-11D9-941B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:23:45 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:23:47 -0000 Chris, We currently have a Chinese national living with us, so I showed them your two postings. Shun Dan is based upon their pronouncation of "Santa", and they said it comes from European culture. While they agreed that Shun Dan Kuale could mean "man without egg", they had never heard of the story of the man's frozen body parts. So, rather than a traditional story, I suspect that it may be a regional joke based upon the name. David On Friday, January 7, 2005, at 05:55 AM, Chris B Billman wrote: > Christopher is in China teaching for a few more years. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Chris B Billman" > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:55 PM > > : You might like this, the Chinese word for merry xmas is Shun Dan > Kuale, > : Kuale means very happy. So Shun Dan is Christmas, well in Chinese > many > : words are pronounced the same, so while Shun Dan means Christmas, > Dan also > : means egg, and Shun also means remaining. The Chinese love making > fun of > : their language more than we do, so there is a story that goes > something > : like this: > : > : In the winter an old man had to take a leak really bad, he couldn't > hold > : it, and there was not a bathroom around. So he had no choice he > whipped it > : out and started relieving himself. It was so cold though, and the > man was > : so old, and his circulation wasn't so good that his dick froze solid > as a > : rock and broke off while he was pissing. He went to the doctor and > the > : doctor said only one thing to him "Shun Dan Kuale" which means, "be > happy > : your balls are still remaing", or "be happy you still have your > balls". > : > : Love, > : > : Chris > : > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ron@cobi.biz Fri Jan 7 23:42:19 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j087gI34036269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00C629527 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:42:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Chinese word for merry xmas is Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:42:01 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000101c4f555$8f9ca6d0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <329DAF7A-6146-11D9-941B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:42:19 -0000 This all reminds me that I grew up in the southwest wondering what a "scurry jingword" was. I'm serious. For a long time I thought the song went, Oh, give me a home where the Buffalo roam Where the Deer and the Antelope play; Where never is heard a scurry jingword, And the sky is not cloudy all day. But then in Grade School when I pledged allegiance to the flag I thought this was "one nation, invisible, with liberty and justice for all". (No, the Pledge had no reference to God back then, and out of respect to my creator and my nation it doesn't today when I say it either... but that's a different matter entirely). Ron D'Eau Claire From rlo42@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 07:25:34 2005 Received: from web14206.mail.yahoo.com (web14206.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.70]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08FPXUI025652 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 07:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 57015 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 15:25:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z+xTYfvPfK7+3zwCxOpr67QbYcX2ZUhL3gg0W99U/c/FFaAx0GTbJ//Gn1/Z/iDUsRPZ4LquRWIxxOFGlzaj/PkvWXsCgrJjkpjARZA/ha2XoiW3txYt0q87gs4++Nddo5z0YwLBAzmYnc68yZXlgtGY/YaphHIhlHJzzGGUoIY= ; Message-ID: <20050108152533.57013.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.12.152.33] by web14206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:25:33 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 07:25:33 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:25:34 -0000 If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! Seig Heile???? +rlo Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: Don't you think that was a very racist remark you made????? Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere for that matter. Kurt Wilke On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of his opponents to endorse > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks insisting on being paid off > before doing anything. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative commentators to > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies pay a > black commentator to pump the program whenever possible: > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the commentator - > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk suggests he must be a > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big difference? > ! ? ! > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of Nazi > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and telling us > how to think!! > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by the > White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had no idea > it was happening. > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the story > in a moment next. > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting money to > promote President Bush's education policy. > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to > plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated broadcast. Some are now > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and possibly a congressional > investigation. > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you. > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are you? > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money? > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And > what we were doing, they used our media. We own our syndication, the rights > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the country. > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And especially, in > particular markets that they wanted this "no child left behind" to be on their > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what they paid for. > > And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for -- I made > it clear because it's something that really believed in as a commentator, > something I wrote often about -- that I would use my contacts with people that > I knew in different media outlets from time to time to get them to talk about > "no child left behind"... > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here. > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your viewers about > the transaction? > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves that we > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I can't recall > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, right? > And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. And if you > did present those arguments and were getting money in return for it, why not > tell people? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I did not > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a very clear that > we had a professional relationship where "no child left behind" was using our > media as advertising. > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at the > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They used our > media. > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we produced > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute commercial. He had > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our commercial reel. > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > You made money off this, right? > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the company. How > often would you... > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the company. > There's a difference. > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you talked > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm on CNN, > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, when I'm on > "CNN MORNING." > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked about "no > child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's very possible. I'm > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an advocate for it. > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the 18th of > October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you recall that > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, I > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an issue > that was consistently in the media for the last two years. > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how someone, > you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this to be unethical > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, you're > promoting values and in ideas and programs in exchange for cash? > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it clear in > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can certainly understand > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you need to > understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can not use paid > advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, many of our affiliates > will not run it. > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. In the > history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that we've ever > had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank out of my home > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But > the reason why this was able to work because not only was this a public > service announcement, and so it passed the muster for some of our affiliates. > > But I understand the conflict... > > HEMMER: Sure. > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned. > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of > time. > Would you do it again? > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with... > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you tell > your listeners and viewers? > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be more > vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our programming. And I > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, yes. > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to get > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, > appreciate it. > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 08:01:18 2005 Received: from web53904.mail.yahoo.com (web53904.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.214]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08G1HiX034950 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:01:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 63052 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 16:01:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=EKBaqFAYeWlA9cHmDR6WMkxa179/51e/cMLAkCL8tkf5mOyKhFSE21PB+TmKizpbJ4De5kzFmmap/jzazksk7EinKYoUlLmKFmc/iDBjXFGv+ban1+x0uoVrwxlgh4LCwQQ1OTtU+WRSK+Y14oE0kDTSRumCGCA95OBcyLZWiK4= ; Message-ID: <20050108160112.63050.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:01:12 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:01:12 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108152533.57013.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:01:18 -0000 Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I appreciate that it is brought to my attention so that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be black until this morning. His color has nothing to do with it, other than the influence he holds over black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics has nothing to do with race. At the same time, did you know that the money to pay for this "news man's" support came from you and me? That's right, the Bush Education office paid with tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as defined by the great tax cutter himself, who consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. -rlo wrote: If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! Seig Heile???? +rlo Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: Don't you think that was a very racist remark you made????? Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere for that matter. Kurt Wilke On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of his opponents to endorse > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks insisting on being paid off > before doing anything. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay conservative commentators to > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two feet, so the Bushies pay a > black commentator to pump the program whenever possible: > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN interview with the commentator - > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double talk suggests he must be a > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's the owner!!" Big difference? > ! ? ! > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in the early stages of Nazi > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting out the news and telling us > how to think!! > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After Being Paid > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now being paid by the > White House to push an agenda on education. Listeners apparently had no idea > it was happening. > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. His side of the story > in a moment next. > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly admitting accepting money to > promote President Bush's education policy. > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams was paid $240,000 to > plug the "no child left behind" act in his syndicated broadcast. Some are now > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and possibly a congressional > investigation. > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good morning to you. > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Bill. How are you? > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return for the money? > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted to Catch Em (ph). And > what we were doing, they used our media. We own our syndication, the rights > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the country. > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay them. And especially, in > particular markets that they wanted this "no child left behind" to be on their > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what they paid for. > > And in addition to that, which is what our contract called for -- I made > it clear because it's something that really believed in as a commentator, > something I wrote often about -- that I would use my contacts with people that > I knew in different media outlets from time to time to get them to talk about > "no child left behind"... > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions here. > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose to your viewers about > the transaction? > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people whose airwaves that we > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I don't -- I can't recall > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to persuade people, right? > And part of your job is to present arguments that you believe in. And if you > did present those arguments and were getting money in return for it, why not > tell people? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an issue that I did not > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the air, I made a very clear that > we had a professional relationship where "no child left behind" was using our > media as advertising. > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. People look at the > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in advertising. They used our > media. > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary Paige where we produced > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one minute commercial. He had > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on our commercial reel. > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > You made money off this, right? > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed by the company. How > often would you... > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the company, I own the company. > There's a difference. > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and promote what you talked > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that because when I'm on CNN, > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf Blitzer's show, when I'm on > "CNN MORNING." > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that we talked about "no > child left behind." But certainly if the issue arises, it's very possible. I'm > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an advocate for it. > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in October, on the 18th of > October, you came on and talked about that very thing. Do you recall that > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite possible. I mean, I > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no child left behind" is an issue > that was consistently in the media for the last two years. > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you understand how someone, > you know, colleagues in the business here would consider this to be unethical > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes from it if, indeed, you're > promoting values and in ideas and programs in exchange for cash? > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In fact, I made it clear in > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA Today" I can certainly understand > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I think you need to > understand, many of the affiliates that we broadcast on, we can not use paid > advertisers. Unless it's a public service announcement, many of our affiliates > will not run it. > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our commercials are PSAs. In the > history of The Right Side Productions, the only advertisers that we've ever > had is the National Rifle Association, since the beginning, "Forest (ph) > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson Brothers Bank out of my home > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, yes, I understand. But > the reason why this was able to work because not only was this a public > service announcement, and so it passed the muster for some of our affiliates. > > But I understand the conflict... > > HEMMER: Sure. > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be concerned. > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm sorry. I'm out of > time. > Would you do it again? > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem with... > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell folks? Would you tell > your listeners and viewers? > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an obligation to be more > vociferous about the fact that they are advertising on our programming. And I > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, yes. > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it up. We wanted to get > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So thanks, Armstrong, > appreciate it. > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your having me. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 08:13:53 2005 Received: from smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08GDrOH037316 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3202.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 5940AD5FB for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA00378; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:13:48 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAxxKXhVAsQN6Mm+1kOvcne05qx+MCFAClnMFhMwj9wJ22/SiKW4sFgFk+ From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:13:47 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <22999-41E006BB-341@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] snow X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:13:54 -0000 anyone get snow during the night besides me? by 10 pm had about an inch. However, it's almost gone now... http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/DawgThoughts From ggsteele@gte.net Sat Jan 8 08:26:22 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08GQLGZ039566 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108162620.UOBD28025.out001.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:26:20 -0600 Message-ID: <001901c4f59e$ca5e44b0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <22999-41E006BB-341@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] snow Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:24:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:26:20 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:26:22 -0000 It snowed for a couple hours here -- didn't stick, other than at the top = of the mountains to the west ... Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alan=20 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:13 AM Subject: [Grovenet] snow anyone get snow during the night besides me? by 10 pm had about an = inch. However, it's almost gone now...=20 http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/DawgThoughts _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rlo42@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 08:57:37 2005 Received: from web14201.mail.yahoo.com (web14201.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08GvbFR045883 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 11976 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 16:57:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=b7T84E/USBPVnTWUzYm8WDbiNSB4EqhSBl+GocfrZASTsem46oQk03EaioNR4NyS7WbUWJUbnME/eLIxTaXGZz3rYRZuBPDesjnntVoPLD4SL5zyYDr2M9BoHqO5Njx20cBzGVhEKr2lzFuUsIIt525EpO4IDfByNG3hv3/OyFw= ; Message-ID: <20050108165735.11974.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.12.152.33] by web14201.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:35 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:57:35 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108160112.63050.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:57:37 -0000 Seig Heil????? +rlo --- Eric Canon wrote: > Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I > inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I > appreciate that it is brought to my attention so > that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean > to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. > > I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be > black until this morning. His color has nothing to > do with it, other than the influence he holds over > black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. > Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such > things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is > right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has > nothing to do with race. It has everything to do > with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics > has nothing to do with race. > > At the same time, did you know that the money to pay > for this "news man's" support came from you and me? > That's right, the Bush Education office paid with > tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as > defined by the great tax cutter himself, who > consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. > > -rlo wrote: > If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! > Seig Heile???? +rlo > > Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: > > Don't you think that was a very racist remark you > made????? > > Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere > for that matter. > > Kurt Wilke > > On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > > > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of > his opponents to endorse > > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks > insisting on being paid off > > before doing anything. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Browning > > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay > conservative commentators to > > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two > feet, so the Bushies pay a > > black commentator to pump the program whenever > possible: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN > interview with the commentator - > > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double > talk suggests he must be a > > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's > the owner!!" Big difference? > > ! ? ! > > > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in > the early stages of Nazi > > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting > out the news and telling us > > how to think!! > > > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After > Being Paid > > > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN > ITS FINAL FORM AND > > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now > being paid by the > > White House to push an agenda on education. > Listeners apparently had no idea > > it was happening. > > > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. > His side of the story > > in a moment next. > > > > > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly > admitting accepting money to > > promote President Bush's education policy. > > > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams > was paid $240,000 to > > plug the "no child left behind" act in his > syndicated broadcast. Some are now > > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and > possibly a congressional > > investigation. > > > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good > morning to you. > > > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, > Bill. How are you? > > > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return > for the money? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted > to Catch Em (ph). And > > what we were doing, they used our media. We own > our syndication, the rights > > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the > country. > > > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay > them. And especially, in > > particular markets that they wanted this "no child > left behind" to be on their > > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what > they paid for. > > > > And in addition to that, which is what our > contract called for -- I made > > it clear because it's something that really > believed in as a commentator, > > something I wrote often about -- that I would use > my contacts with people that > > I knew in different media outlets from time to > time to get them to talk about > > "no child left behind"... > > > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions > here. > > > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose > to your viewers about > > the transaction? > > > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people > whose airwaves that we > > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I > don't -- I can't recall > > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to > persuade people, right? > > And part of your job is to present arguments that > you believe in. And if you > > did present those arguments and were getting money > in return for it, why not > > tell people? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an > issue that I did not > > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the > air, I made a very clear that > > we had a professional relationship where "no child > left behind" was using our > > media as advertising. > > > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. > People look at the > > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in > advertising. They used our > > media. > > > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary > Paige where we produced > > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one > minute commercial. He had > > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on > our commercial reel. > > > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > > > You made money off this, right? > > > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed > by the company. How > > often would you... > > > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the > company, I own the company. > > There's a difference. > > > > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and > promote what you talked > > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that > because when I'm on CNN, > > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf > Blitzer's show, when I'm on > > "CNN MORNING." > > > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that > we talked about "no > > child left behind." But certainly if the issue > arises, it's very possible. I'm > > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an > advocate for it. > > > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in > October, on the 18th of > > October, you came on and talked about that very > thing. Do you recall that > > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite > possible. I mean, I > > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no > child left behind" is an issue > > that was consistently in the media for the last > two years. > > > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you > understand how someone, > > you know, colleagues in the business here would > consider this to be unethical > > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes > from it if, indeed, you're > > promoting values and in ideas and programs in > exchange for cash? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In > fact, I made it clear in > > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA > Today" I can certainly understand > > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I > think you need to > > understand, many of the affiliates that we > broadcast on, we can not use paid > > advertisers. Unless it's a public service > announcement, many of our affiliates > > will not run it. > > > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our > commercials are PSAs. In the > > history of The Right Side Productions, the only > advertisers that we've ever > > had is the National Rifle Association, since the > beginning, "Forest (ph) > > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson > Brothers Bank out of my home > > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, > yes, I understand. But > > the reason why this was able to work because not > only was this a public > > service announcement, and so it passed the muster > for some of our affiliates. > > > > But I understand the conflict... > > > > HEMMER: Sure. > > > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be > concerned. > > > > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm > sorry. I'm out of > > time. > > Would you do it again? > > > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem > with... > > > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell > folks? Would you tell > > your listeners and viewers? > > > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an > obligation to be more > > vociferous about the fact that they are > advertising on our programming. And I > > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, > yes. > > > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it > up. We wanted to get > > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So > thanks, Armstrong, > > appreciate it. > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your > having me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 09:07:11 2005 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08H7B7c047924 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 3861CD6A4 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA05052; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:07:00 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAr+2DN9lrC4ys/JMWRoAFYrFAEI4CFGVJB8561W6GZfmOiVgvNejjWeHG From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:07:00 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <27552-41E01334-592@storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] for what it's worth X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:07:12 -0000 Tips from an OleHoss and MSN .. Don't unsubscribe to spam Got spam in your in-box? Don't try to unsubscribe. This just lets spammers know they've reached a legitimate e-mail address. To delete spam without opening it: 1. Go to your Mail List and choose Clean up. 2. Place a check-mark next to each item you wish to delete. 3. Choose Discard. From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sat Jan 8 10:12:42 2005 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08ICfhu060894 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005010818123501200p51a5e>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:12:35 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:12:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <27552-41E01334-592@storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Grovenet] flip side X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:12:42 -0000 Here's one Bob failed to post. http://tinyurl.com/6kynv Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's former finance director has been indicted on charges of filing fictitious reports that misstated contributions for a Hollywood fund-raising gala for the senator, the Justice Department said Friday. From edavie@oregonmta.org Sat Jan 8 10:13:22 2005 Received: from mails09.megamailservers.com (mails09.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.209]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08IDLnt061038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:13:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails09.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j08IDGVr002905 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: <004f01c4f5ad$ba254ad0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <22999-41E006BB-341@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] snow Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:13:12 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:13:22 -0000 The lawn and bushes were white for a couple of hours but it was gone = before midnight. Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alan=20 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:13 AM Subject: [Grovenet] snow anyone get snow during the night besides me? by 10 pm had about an = inch. However, it's almost gone now...=20 http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/DawgThoughts _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sat Jan 8 11:14:00 2005 Received: from osiris.email.starband.net (osiris.email.starband.net [148.78.247.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08JE0nd072470 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by osiris.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08JDZlL028511 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:13:43 -0500 Message-ID: <01b701c4f5b6$b68f15a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <22999-41E006BB-341@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] snow Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:17:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:14:01 -0000 well I am looking at a couple of inches which his till on the trees, though now (11.am.) it is raining, but then I am 50 miles N of FG and at 1200 feet elevation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "alan" To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:13 AM Subject: [Grovenet] snow > anyone get snow during the night besides me? by 10 pm had about an inch. > However, it's almost gone now... > > > > http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/DawgThoughts > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sat Jan 8 11:59:31 2005 Received: from apollo.email.starband.net (apollo.email.starband.net [148.78.247.132]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08JxUf9082985 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:59:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apollo.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08K0HPN013496 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:00:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01f401c4f5bd$1393e4a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] flip side Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:02:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:59:31 -0000 It's only Hill scamming half a million of illegal money for her senate compaign. no big deal. The campaign manager can take the fall for it, and can be glad that he only has to go to the slammer for in instead of needing to swollow a 38 special out on the white house lawn. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: [Grovenet] flip side > Here's one Bob failed to post. > http://tinyurl.com/6kynv > Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's former finance director has been indicted on > charges of filing fictitious reports that misstated contributions for a > Hollywood fund-raising gala for the senator, the Justice Department said > Friday. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 12:03:13 2005 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08K3DSg083834 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:03:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 2DCF9D67B for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id MAA22444; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:03:07 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQFwLFu5RK60QuC3tkCQ7AMUD39gwIVAMRsdPAjp/sjH/E/prSzCzLn5zIo From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:03:07 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <10803-41E03C7B-216@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j08K3DSg083834 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Old Geezers... X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:03:13 -0000 Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:44 AM to an OleHoss who lives 15 miles or so north of FG at 1000 feet above sea level from another Old Geezer.   "Geezers" (slang for an old man) are easy to spot: At sporting events, during the playing of the National Anthem, Old Geezers hold their caps over their hearts and sing without embarrassment. < They know the words and believe in them. Old Geezers remember World War I, the Depression, World War II, Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal, Normandy and Hitler. < They remember the Atomic Age, the Korean War, The Cold War, the Jet Age and the Moon Landing, not to mention Vietnam. < If you bump into an Old Geezer on the sidewalk, he will apologize. If you pass an Old Geezer on the street, he will nod or tip his cap to a lady. < Old Geezers trust strangers and are courtly to women.  Old Geezers hold the door for the next person and always, when walking, make certain the lady is on the inside for protection.. < Old Geezers get embarrassed if someone curses in front of women and children and they don't like any filth on TV or in movies.  Old Geezers have moral courage.  They seldom brag unless it's about their grandchildren. < It's the Old Geezers who know our great country is protected, not by politicians or police, but by the young men and women in the military serving their country. < This country needs Old Geezers with their decent values.  We need them now more than ever.  Thank God for Old Geezers! ~alan~ proud to be almost an ole geezer ~ Hoss < Pass this on to all the Old Geezers you know. Fwd_ Fw_ Old Geezers....email (rfc822 From chgenly@verizon.net Sat Jan 8 12:03:18 2005 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08K3H2K083862 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.106] ([4.5.12.154]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108200317.XTHI7873.out006.verizon.net@[10.0.0.106]> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:03:17 -0600 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] flip side From: Chris Genly To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <01f401c4f5bd$1393e4a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> References: <01f401c4f5bd$1393e4a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:03:14 -0800 Message-Id: <1105214594.3454.4.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:03:16 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:03:20 -0000 Rubbish. On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 12:02 -0800, Robert VanNatta wrote: > It's only Hill scamming half a million of illegal money for her senate > compaign. no big deal. > The campaign manager can take the fall for it, and can be glad that he only > has to go to the slammer for in instead of needing to swollow a 38 special > out on the white house lawn. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:12 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] flip side > > > > Here's one Bob failed to post. > > http://tinyurl.com/6kynv > > Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's former finance director has been indicted on > > charges of filing fictitious reports that misstated contributions for a > > Hollywood fund-raising gala for the senator, the Justice Department said > > Friday. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 12:20:08 2005 Received: from web11411.mail.yahoo.com (web11411.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.8]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08KK66d087269 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 59189 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 20:20:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ks8MJ09KRc6LLliN2OZ2TyXlyBckIAelhfo7vSlCql+KwZJX5Qb8takGkJli079PxT6/35pOXhF0SkKjC0XRcZCPeoYgZhqAMn3sFVv7WlUSfrsz2LqdbgX4ByaiKXOptr1C/sTzYEsf0MAHgDH77E+BR3oH1CHQ7UMhrqHr2hI= ; Message-ID: <20050108202001.59187.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.166.105] by web11411.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:20:01 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] what the heck X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:20:10 -0000 I read the post by the family that is missing their dog & that reminded me of a story I'd like to get feedback/opinions from Grovenet on. My friend had a dog that happened to be a chow/german shepard mix. VERY nice loving family dog. Their home is owned by my friends mother & when the mother filled out the renewal homeowners insurance papers it asked about pets. As it turns out the insurance would increase about 5 times for a dog that happens to be a chow or a german shephard, so they had to pay the much higher premium or get rid of the family pet. They very painfully and tearfully got rid of the pet. Allied insurance sent them a letter telling them "they were sorry for their inconvenience" which hurt & stung a little more. How can that be right that they increase their insurance on a particular breed? This dog had been a pet for several years. Love to hear your perspective, she would like to pursue getting this changed even though it is too late for her dog but doesn't know where or how. Any thoughts or ideas? Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 12:22:26 2005 Received: from web11408.mail.yahoo.com (web11408.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.238]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08KMP3u087898 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 97180 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 20:22:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=qMNpwTzRLB29io1FFwg8AG/whmfZBc4sjQyHPBQfajRbPIdvtGLdU0vmN0ayOqMSnp6dITNa/ppGgANZGm9YUbYWj1RK7ZMTKU26qsh9sz6yvnmMTKojT8gu0rwlLuOApEaO3VZMWFijj50zvVUPyFsAKFC03JZkLqJnilLEzgE= ; Message-ID: <20050108202224.97178.qmail@web11408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.166.105] by web11408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:22:24 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:22:24 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] again... what the heck X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:22:26 -0000 ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would like to hear what you all think of it. We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. Our check engine light was on, has been since February. They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light is on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. I think that's absurb! The check engine light will come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal Moore told me this is one of their biggest complaints and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even if your emissions come out ok. My situation was the light came on in February, it cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told them a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine light on. But that became a problem when we needed to pass DEQ. DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check the newer vehicles but it seems like something better ought to be figured out. Love to hear your thoughts. Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 12:27:39 2005 Received: from web11411.mail.yahoo.com (web11411.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.8]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08KRc5M089058 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 59812 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 20:27:38 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=BtAfFUFjwcQxGWw6IgIlfLXdL6YyXKtrSE7NaOjtu6xbPoIufSLjxzlO3DUY2I71rMKdGZPslV6M357xzHv+SyCNMjrRnSZF5V1tkYP/cPtZRLq/2ACWOiAkR+Ic3Df8eAkaNjgmDKVkyc8lt3eMnXDnOFWdJZOvYcLgPJRbQJs= ; Message-ID: <20050108202738.59810.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.166.105] by web11411.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:27:38 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:27:38 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Old Geezers... To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <10803-41E03C7B-216@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:27:39 -0000 I agree, we do need more "old geezers", I'm trying very hard to raise my children to be one some day, boys & girls. Vickie --- alan wrote: > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:44 AM > to an OleHoss who lives 15 miles or so north of FG > at 1000 feet above > sea level from another Old Geezer. > > "Geezers" (slang for an old man) are easy to spot: > At sporting events, > during the playing of the National Anthem, Old > Geezers hold their caps > over their hearts and sing without embarrassment. > < They know the words and believe in them. Old > Geezers remember World > War I, the Depression, World War II, Pearl Harbor, > Guadalcanal, Normandy > and Hitler. > < They remember the Atomic Age, the Korean War, The > Cold War, the Jet > Age > and the Moon Landing, not to mention Vietnam. > < If you bump into an Old Geezer on the sidewalk, he > will apologize. If > you pass an Old Geezer on the street, he will nod or > tip his cap to a > lady. > < Old Geezers trust strangers and are courtly to > women. Old Geezers > hold > the door for the next person and always, when > walking, make certain the > lady > is on the inside for protection.. > < Old Geezers get embarrassed if someone curses in > front of women and > children and they don't like any filth on TV or in > movies. Old > Geezers have moral > courage. They seldom brag unless it's about their > grandchildren. > < It's the Old Geezers who know our great country is > protected, not by > politicians or police, but by the young men and > women in the military > serving their country. > < This country needs Old Geezers with their decent > values. We need > them now > more than ever. Thank God for Old Geezers! > > ~alan~ proud to be almost an ole geezer ~ Hoss > > < Pass this on to all the Old Geezers you know. > Fwd_ Fw_ Old Geezers....email (rfc822 > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From chgenly@verizon.net Sat Jan 8 12:43:58 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08KhuuL092583 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.106] ([4.5.12.154]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108204336.YKXK21228.out007.verizon.net@[10.0.0.106]> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:43:36 -0600 From: Chris Genly To: grovenet Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-/ibGaYnatPXXKvi2r/9Y" Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:43:35 -0800 Message-Id: <1105217016.3451.15.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:43:36 -0600 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:48:01 -0800 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] [Fwd: Missing] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chgenly@alum.mit.edu, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:43:58 -0000 --=-/ibGaYnatPXXKvi2r/9Y Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to forward this to the list with pictures. It was rejected by the the list server because it was too large. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Eldon Fitzgerald To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Missing Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:01:15 -0800 Dear neighbors: Our 11-year old dog disappeared from our yard in the Rogers Park area sometime between 8:30 pm and 10 pm Tuesday night (1/04). She is a very sweet gold & white shepherd/husky mix named Holly. A reward will be offered to anyone who returns her to us. 503-359-7505. Thank you, The Fitzgerald Family. -- --=-/ibGaYnatPXXKvi2r/9Y-- From chgenly@verizon.net Sat Jan 8 12:55:13 2005 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08KtCSf094742 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chgenly@verizon.net) Received: from [10.0.0.106] ([4.5.12.154]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050108205505.YDJV7873.out006.verizon.net@[10.0.0.106]>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:55:05 -0600 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] [Fwd: Missing] From: Chris Genly To: chgenly@alum.mit.edu, grovenet In-Reply-To: <1105217016.3451.15.camel@gimli> References: <1105217016.3451.15.camel@gimli> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-Bcc3D2au6L7t2CCDt1m9" Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:55:04 -0800 Message-Id: <1105217704.3455.18.camel@gimli> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.5.12.154] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:55:04 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@genly.us, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:55:13 -0000 --=-Bcc3D2au6L7t2CCDt1m9 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trying once again to get the pictures on the list. I converted the images to jpg this time. On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 12:43 -0800, Chris Genly wrote: > I wanted to forward this to the list with pictures. It was rejected by > the the list server because it was too large. > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Eldon Fitzgerald > To: grovenet@rdrop.com > Subject: Missing > Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:01:15 -0800 > Dear neighbors: > > Our 11-year old dog disappeared from our yard in the Rogers Park area > sometime between 8:30 pm and 10 pm Tuesday night (1/04). She is a very > sweet gold & white shepherd/husky mix named Holly. A reward will be offered > to anyone who returns her to us. 503-359-7505. > > Thank you, > > The Fitzgerald Family. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --=-Bcc3D2au6L7t2CCDt1m9 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Holly_front.jpg Content-Type: image/jpeg; name=Holly_front.jpg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEACQAJAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCADiAKIDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAAYDAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAABAUGBwgJAAMKAgEL/8QAQBAAAgICAQIEBQIEBAMI AQUAAQIDBAURBhIhAAcTMQgUIkFRFWEJIzJxFiRCgZGxwRcYM1JioeHw8Qo1U3KS/8QAHgEAAAYD AQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMEBQYHAQgJAAr/xABPEQACAgEDAgQDAgcLCAgHAAABAgMEEQUSIRMxAAYi QQcUUSNhCBUyQmJxgTM0NVJzdZGhsrTwFiQ2Q0RydLMXJZOxtbbD0VNjZHaChNL/2gAMAwEAAhED 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chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.122.168] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CnOcK-0006qs-8u for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:59:28 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=cOJn6HY0wqGd5v7UdRUtgg2VvxHqXkGWI9D29is7WchEp5JjYUlabNJF8Xrtbkl2; Message-ID: <410-22005168215928373@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:59:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c260919161cb1f1e5a8afeed7a00c4ef9ddca387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.122.168 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:59:30 -0000 What is about you guys and Hillary? Why is she so threatening? > [Original Message] > From: Steven > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/8/2005 10:12:35 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] flip side > > Here's one Bob failed to post. > http://tinyurl.com/6kynv > Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's former finance director has been indicted on > charges of filing fictitious reports that misstated contributions for a > Hollywood fund-raising gala for the senator, the Justice Department said > Friday. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 15:40:06 2005 Received: from web53908.mail.yahoo.com (web53908.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.218]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j08Ne5kN028777 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:40:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 3392 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2005 23:40:00 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=R9+uBezQeFuG2xBLnpdvfvmf4494QWv9lt1NyyCZxVAOll06337f84cYvmBVlOna2owQpnwmpA2uaqiU/GuFfsM5Q205shx7FRn/jWPn9CDMFTGz/LjtvKqKv9YFdXJSJQ0+AhEAB3ghhhhFpTtKoRJTzQEgE346E09X0Wl6p0U= ; Message-ID: <20050108234000.3390.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:39:59 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:39:59 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108165735.11974.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:40:07 -0000 Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does it work! People sign on. Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but that's not a racist remark. Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment of my life without apology. Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you really understand what "racist" is in the first place. -rlo wrote: Seig Heil????? +rlo --- Eric Canon wrote: > Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I > inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I > appreciate that it is brought to my attention so > that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean > to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. > > I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be > black until this morning. His color has nothing to > do with it, other than the influence he holds over > black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. > Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such > things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is > right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has > nothing to do with race. It has everything to do > with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics > has nothing to do with race. > > At the same time, did you know that the money to pay > for this "news man's" support came from you and me? > That's right, the Bush Education office paid with > tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as > defined by the great tax cutter himself, who > consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. > > -rlo wrote: > If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! > Seig Heile???? +rlo > > Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: > > Don't you think that was a very racist remark you > made????? > > Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere > for that matter. > > Kurt Wilke > > On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > > > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of > his opponents to endorse > > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks > insisting on being paid off > > before doing anything. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Browning > > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay > conservative commentators to > > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two > feet, so the Bushies pay a > > black commentator to pump the program whenever > possible: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN > interview with the commentator - > > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double > talk suggests he must be a > > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's > the owner!!" Big difference? > > ! ? ! > > > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in > the early stages of Nazi > > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting > out the news and telling us > > how to think!! > > > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After > Being Paid > > > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN > ITS FINAL FORM AND > > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now > being paid by the > > White House to push an agenda on education. > Listeners apparently had no idea > > it was happening. > > > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. > His side of the story > > in a moment next. > > > > > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly > admitting accepting money to > > promote President Bush's education policy. > > > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams > was paid $240,000 to > > plug the "no child left behind" act in his > syndicated broadcast. Some are now > > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and > possibly a congressional > > investigation. > > > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good > morning to you. > > > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, > Bill. How are you? > > > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return > for the money? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted > to Catch Em (ph). And > > what we were doing, they used our media. We own > our syndication, the rights > > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the > country. > > > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay > them. And especially, in > > particular markets that they wanted this "no child > left behind" to be on their > > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what > they paid for. > > > > And in addition to that, which is what our > contract called for -- I made > > it clear because it's something that really > believed in as a commentator, > > something I wrote often about -- that I would use > my contacts with people that > > I knew in different media outlets from time to > time to get them to talk about > > "no child left behind"... > > > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions > here. > > > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose > to your viewers about > > the transaction? > > > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people > whose airwaves that we > > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I > don't -- I can't recall > > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to > persuade people, right? > > And part of your job is to present arguments that > you believe in. And if you > > did present those arguments and were getting money > in return for it, why not > > tell people? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an > issue that I did not > > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the > air, I made a very clear that > > we had a professional relationship where "no child > left behind" was using our > > media as advertising. > > > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. > People look at the > > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in > advertising. They used our > > media. > > > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary > Paige where we produced > > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one > minute commercial. He had > > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on > our commercial reel. > > > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > > > You made money off this, right? > > > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed > by the company. How > > often would you... > > > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the > company, I own the company. > > There's a difference. > > > > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and > promote what you talked > > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that > because when I'm on CNN, > > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf > Blitzer's show, when I'm on > > "CNN MORNING." > > > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that > we talked about "no > > child left behind." But certainly if the issue > arises, it's very possible. I'm > > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an > advocate for it. > > > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in > October, on the 18th of > > October, you came on and talked about that very > thing. Do you recall that > > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite > possible. I mean, I > > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no > child left behind" is an issue > > that was consistently in the media for the last > two years. > > > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you > understand how someone, > > you know, colleagues in the business here would > consider this to be unethical > > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes > from it if, indeed, you're > > promoting values and in ideas and programs in > exchange for cash? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In > fact, I made it clear in > > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA > Today" I can certainly understand > > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I > think you need to > > understand, many of the affiliates that we > broadcast on, we can not use paid > > advertisers. Unless it's a public service > announcement, many of our affiliates > > will not run it. > > > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our > commercials are PSAs. In the > > history of The Right Side Productions, the only > advertisers that we've ever > > had is the National Rifle Association, since the > beginning, "Forest (ph) > > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson > Brothers Bank out of my home > > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, > yes, I understand. But > > the reason why this was able to work because not > only was this a public > > service announcement, and so it passed the muster > for some of our affiliates. > > > > But I understand the conflict... > > > > HEMMER: Sure. > > > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be > concerned. > > > > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm > sorry. I'm out of > > time. > > Would you do it again? > > > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem > with... > > > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell > folks? Would you tell > > your listeners and viewers? > > > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an > obligation to be more > > vociferous about the fact that they are > advertising on our programming. And I > > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, > yes. > > > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it > up. We wanted to get > > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So > thanks, Armstrong, > > appreciate it. > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your > having me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Oberzil@aol.com Sat Jan 8 15:53:01 2005 Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j08Nr07o032164 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:53:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Oberzil@aol.com) Received: from Oberzil@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.8a.1dd44439 (18403) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:52:49 -0500 (EST) From: Oberzil@aol.com Message-ID: <8a.1dd44439.2f11cc51@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:52:49 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:53:01 -0000 January 6, 2005 PUBLIC LIVES Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse By CHRIS HEDGES Correction Appended PRINCETON, N.J. FRITZ STERN, a refugee from Hitler's Germany and a leading scholar of European history, startled several of his listeners when he warned in a speech about the danger posed in this country by the rise of the Christian right. In his address in November, just after he received a prize presented by the German foreign minister, he told his audience that Hitler saw himself as "the instrument of providence" and fused his "racial dogma with a Germanic Christianity." "Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics," he said of prewar Germany, "but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured his success, notably in Protestant areas." Dr. Stern's speech, given during a ceremony at which he got the prize from the Leo Baeck Institute, a center focused on German Jewish history, was certainly provocative. The fascism of Nazi Germany belongs to a world so horrendous it often seems to defy the possibility of repetition or analogy. But Dr. Stern, 78, the author of books like "The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology" and university professor emeritus at Columbia University, has devoted a lifetime to analyzing how the Nazi barbarity became possible. He stops short of calling the Christian right fascist but his decision to draw parallels, especially in the uses of propaganda, was controversial. "When I saw the speech my eyes lit up," said John R. MacArthur, whose book "Second Front" examines wartime propaganda. "The comparison between the propagandistic manipulation and uses of Christianity, then and now, is hidden in plain sight. No one will talk about it. No one wants to look at it." Dr. Stern was a schoolboy in 1933 when Hitler was appointed the German chancellor. He ran home from school that January afternoon clutching a special edition of the newspaper to deliver to his father, a prominent physician. "I was young," he said, "but I knew it was very bad news." The street fighting in his native Breslau (now Wroclaw in Poland) between Communists and Nazis, the collapse of German democracy and the ruthless suppression of all opposition marked his childhood, and were images and experiences that would propel him forward as a scholar. "I saw one of the last public demonstrations against Hitler," he said. "Men, women and children walked through the street and chanted 'Hunger! Hunger! Hunger!' " His paternal grandparents had converted to Christianity. His parents were baptized at birth, as were Mr. Stern and his older sister. But this did not save the Sterns from persecution. Nazi racial laws still classified them as Jews. "It was only Nazi anti-Semitism that made me conscious of my Jewish heritage," he said. "I had been brought up in a secular Christian fashion, celebrating Christmas and Easter. My father had to explain it to me." His schoolmates were swiftly recruited into Hitler youth groups and he and other Jews were taunted and excluded from some activities. "Many of my classmates found the organized party experience, which included a heavy dose of flag waving and talk of national strength, very exhilarating," said Dr. Stern, who lost an aunt and an uncle in the Holocaust. "It was something I never forgot." His family fled to New York in 1938 when he was 12. He eventually went to Columbia University intending to study medicine. But his passion for the past, along with questions about what happened to his homeland, caused him to switch his focus to history. He wanted to grasp how democracies disintegrate. He wanted to uncover the warning signs other democracies should heed. He wanted to write about the seductiveness of authoritarian movements, which he once described in an essay, "National Socialism as Temptation." "There was a longing in Europe for fascism before the name was ever invented," he said. "There was a longing for a new authoritarianism with some kind of religious orientation and above all a greater communal belongingness. There are some similarities in the mood then and the mood now, although also significant differences." HE warns of the danger in an open society of "mass manipulation of public opinion, often mixed with mendacity and forms of intimidation." He is a passionate defender of liberalism as "manifested in the spirit of the Enlightenment and the early years of the American republic." "The radical right and the radical left see liberalism's appeal to reason and tolerance as the denial of their uniform ideology," he said. "Every democracy needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights enshrined in law and spirit, for this alone gives democracy the chance for self-correction and reform. Without it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every genuine conservative knows this." Dr. Stern, who has two children from a previous marriage, is married to Elizabeth Sifton, a book publisher. They live in New York. He is writing a book called "Five Germanys I Have Known," a combination of memoirs and reflections that looks at Weimar, Nazi Germany, the Federal Republic of Germany, East Germany and unified Germany. He is widely read in Germany and has won its highest literary prize. "The Jews in Central Europe welcomed the Russian Revolution," he said, "but it ended badly for them. The tacit alliance between the neo-cons and the Christian right is less easily understood. I can imagine a similarly disillusioning outcome." Correction: January 7, 2005, Friday: The Public Lives profile yesterday, about Fritz Stern, the scholar of European history who has recently warned of the danger of the rise of the Christian right in the United States, misspelled his wife's given name. She is Elisabeth Sifton, not Elizabeth. In a message dated 1/8/2005 3:40:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, canonmetals@yahoo.com writes: Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does it work! People sign on. Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but that's not a racist remark. Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment of my life without apology. Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you really understand what "racist" is in the first place. -rlo wrote: Seig Heil????? +rlo From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 16:05:14 2005 Received: from web53908.mail.yahoo.com (web53908.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.218]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0905Dqh034420 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:05:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 10113 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 00:05:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yxn2e3vbsKn26quVWftLfaArn1s/jCjemJOHiaBx6Ycqg+WoyzaHoW0T7HKxHHHHh861fUhpkhvg0vqmDwZWVW36BeMssDg9cHCnGkAPaAc0Y754M3RvAJfHkfu778xzEvxgxQBZK+MzKCmitvbDaQRzDwC1Gj4B+qOW1iOXZZU= ; Message-ID: <20050109000508.10111.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:05:08 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:05:08 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <8a.1dd44439.2f11cc51@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:05:14 -0000 Thanks Mark. For those of you who shake your head and dismiss this notion, I truly hope I'm wrong. I truly do. We shall see. --- Oberzil@aol.com wrote: > > > January 6, 2005 > PUBLIC LIVES > Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse > By CHRIS HEDGES > > Correction Appended > PRINCETON, N.J. > FRITZ STERN, a refugee from Hitler's Germany > and a leading scholar of > European history, startled several of his > listeners when he warned in a speech about > the danger posed in this country by the rise of > the Christian right. In his > address in November, just after he received a > prize presented by the German > foreign minister, he told his audience that > Hitler saw himself as "the instrument > of providence" and fused his "racial dogma with > a Germanic Christianity." > "Some people recognized the moral perils of > mixing religion and politics," he > said of prewar Germany, "but many more were > seduced by it. It was the > pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics > that largely ensured his success, > notably in Protestant areas." > Dr. Stern's speech, given during a ceremony at > which he got the prize from > the Leo Baeck Institute, a center focused on > German Jewish history, was > certainly provocative. The fascism of Nazi > Germany belongs to a world so horrendous it > often seems to defy the possibility of > repetition or analogy. But Dr. Stern, > 78, the author of books like "The Politics of > Cultural Despair: A Study in the > Rise of the Germanic Ideology" and university > professor emeritus at Columbia > University, has devoted a lifetime to analyzing > how the Nazi barbarity became > possible. He stops short of calling the > Christian right fascist but his > decision to draw parallels, especially in the > uses of propaganda, was controversial. > "When I saw the speech my eyes lit up," said > John R. MacArthur, whose book > "Second Front" examines wartime propaganda. > "The comparison between the > propagandistic manipulation and uses of > Christianity, then and now, is hidden in plain > sight. No one will talk about it. No one wants > to look at it." > Dr. Stern was a schoolboy in 1933 when Hitler > was appointed the German > chancellor. He ran home from school that > January afternoon clutching a special > edition of the newspaper to deliver to his > father, a prominent physician. > "I was young," he said, "but I knew it was very > bad news." > The street fighting in his native Breslau (now > Wroclaw in Poland) between > Communists and Nazis, the collapse of German > democracy and the ruthless > suppression of all opposition marked his > childhood, and were images and experiences > that would propel him forward as a scholar. > "I saw one of the last public demonstrations > against Hitler," he said. "Men, > women and children walked through the street > and chanted 'Hunger! Hunger! > Hunger!' " > His paternal grandparents had converted to > Christianity. His parents were > baptized at birth, as were Mr. Stern and his > older sister. But this did not save > the Sterns from persecution. Nazi racial laws > still classified them as Jews. > "It was only Nazi anti-Semitism that made me > conscious of my Jewish > heritage," he said. "I had been brought up in a > secular Christian fashion, celebrating > Christmas and Easter. My father had to explain > it to me." > His schoolmates were swiftly recruited into > Hitler youth groups and he and > other Jews were taunted and excluded from some > activities. > "Many of my classmates found the organized > party experience, which included a > heavy dose of flag waving and talk of national > strength, very exhilarating," > said Dr. Stern, who lost an aunt and an uncle > in the Holocaust. "It was > something I never forgot." > His family fled to New York in 1938 when he was > 12. He eventually went to > Columbia University intending to study > medicine. But his passion for the past, > along with questions about what happened to his > homeland, caused him to switch > his focus to history. He wanted to grasp how > democracies disintegrate. He > wanted to uncover the warning signs other > democracies should heed. He wanted to > write about the seductiveness of authoritarian > movements, which he once described > in an essay, "National Socialism as > Temptation." > "There was a longing in Europe for fascism > before the name was ever > invented," he said. "There was a longing for a > new authoritarianism with some kind of > religious orientation and above all a greater > communal belongingness. There are > some similarities in the mood then and the mood > now, although also > significant differences." > HE warns of the danger in an open society of > "mass manipulation of public > opinion, often mixed with mendacity and forms > of intimidation." He is a > passionate defender of liberalism as > "manifested in the spirit of the Enlightenment > and > the early years of the American republic." > "The radical right and the radical left see > liberalism's appeal to reason and > tolerance as the denial of their uniform > ideology," he said. "Every democracy > needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights > enshrined in law and spirit, for > this alone gives democracy the chance for > self-correction and reform. Without > it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every > genuine conservative knows > this." > Dr. Stern, who has two children from a previous > marriage, is married to > Elizabeth Sifton, a book publisher. They live > in New York. He is writing a book > called "Five Germanys I Have Known," a > combination of memoirs and reflections > that looks at Weimar, Nazi Germany, the Federal > Republic of Germany, East Germany > and unified Germany. He is widely read in > Germany and has won its highest > literary prize. > "The Jews in Central Europe welcomed the > Russian Revolution," he said, "but > it ended badly for them. The tacit alliance > between the neo-cons and the > Christian right is less easily understood. I > can imagine a similarly disillusioning > outcome." > Correction: January 7, 2005, Friday: > The Public Lives profile yesterday, about Fritz > Stern, the scholar of > European history who has recently warned of the > danger of the rise of the Christian > right in the United States, misspelled his > wife's given name. She is Elisabeth > Sifton, not Elizabeth. > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/8/2005 3:40:34 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > canonmetals@yahoo.com writes: > Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! > > First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to > corrupt the media to survive. > Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and > I echoed it. Fascist's would buy > such support. Why not? The end justifies the > means for them. They have no use > for ethics or integrity. > > Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi > regime, a fascist regime. There > are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush > administration is following policies > that benefit the rich and corporations. The > Nazi's did the same thing. It's the > every core of fascism. To gain traction with > supporters, they recruit by > dividing groups of people. They employ hate, by > frightening people. That is, the > Nazi's targeted the Jews. They were the > problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks > and non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem > goes away. > > Bush targets same sex people, illegal > foreigners, and now Muslims. It's > subtle, and it's still really early in the > process, but boy, does it work! People > sign on. > > Having said that, you can accuse me of > "discrimination" when it comes to > Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now > Gonzales, and the others who write the > tunes to which this government dances. I don't > like 'em. Not one bit. To me, they > are crooks and evil men. They have no > integrity. > > That said, my statement is not "racism". My > statement has nothing to do with > race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm > not informed, but that's not a > racist remark. > > Seig Heil originates from Germany and the > German language, but I'm not > running down the Germans with it. I may be > running down the Nazi's, and I won't > apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's > every moment of my life without > apology. > > Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven > sakes provide me with enough > detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is > whether you really understand > what "racist" is in the first place. > > -rlo wrote: > Seig Heil????? +rlo > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From tosca@prodigy.net Sat Jan 8 16:05:28 2005 Received: from web81403.mail.yahoo.com (web81403.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.92]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0905StR034483 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tosca@prodigy.net) Message-ID: <20050109000522.63991.qmail@web81403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.242.189.143] by web81403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:05:22 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:05:22 -0800 (PST) From: Bonnie Combs Subject: Re: [Grovenet] what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108202001.59187.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:05:28 -0000 Vickie, it all depends on the insurance company. An independent insurance man, maybe like Herb Drew, can find a reasonable one for her. Many humane organizations are fighting these ridiculous rules and they will probably force changes in the near future. Remember when the blind people had to fight to get their guide dogs allowed into grocery stores? Same idea. Bless you for caring. Bonnie Vickie Madeoneup wrote: I read the post by the family that is missing their dog & that reminded me of a story I'd like to get feedback/opinions from Grovenet on. My friend had a dog that happened to be a chow/german shepard mix. VERY nice loving family dog. Their home is owned by my friends mother & when the mother filled out the renewal homeowners insurance papers it asked about pets. As it turns out the insurance would increase about 5 times for a dog that happens to be a chow or a german shephard, so they had to pay the much higher premium or get rid of the family pet. They very painfully and tearfully got rid of the pet. Allied insurance sent them a letter telling them "they were sorry for their inconvenience" which hurt & stung a little more. How can that be right that they increase their insurance on a particular breed? This dog had been a pet for several years. Love to hear your perspective, she would like to pursue getting this changed even though it is too late for her dog but doesn't know where or how. Any thoughts or ideas? Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From tosca@prodigy.net Sat Jan 8 16:12:55 2005 Received: from web81410.mail.yahoo.com (web81410.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.99]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j090CtwI035967 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:12:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tosca@prodigy.net) Message-ID: <20050109001250.55090.qmail@web81410.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.242.189.143] by web81410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:12:50 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:12:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bonnie Combs Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108202224.97178.qmail@web11408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:12:56 -0000 Vickie, Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the past on a medical insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff person to light a fire under the responsible agency . It may take a while but it works. Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) Vickie Madeoneup wrote: ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would like to hear what you all think of it. We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. Our check engine light was on, has been since February. They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light is on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. I think that's absurb! The check engine light will come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal Moore told me this is one of their biggest complaints and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even if your emissions come out ok. My situation was the light came on in February, it cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told them a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine light on. But that became a problem when we needed to pass DEQ. DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check the newer vehicles but it seems like something better ought to be figured out. Love to hear your thoughts. Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 8 16:25:33 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j090PXkf038491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C2E2952A for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:25:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:25:11 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f5e1$b312d8a0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <410-22005168215928373@earthlink.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:25:34 -0000 Julie wrote: What is about you guys and Hillary? Why is she so threatening? -------------------------------- 1. She's female. 2. She would have made a better President than Bill. 3. She doesn't feel like she has to apologize for her gender. Ron D'Eau Claire From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 8 16:31:46 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j090VjTJ039855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA6F2952A for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:31:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] what the heck Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:31:23 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000101c4f5e2$90cfd490$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050108202001.59187.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j090VjTJ039855 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:31:46 -0000 1 - Did they ask other insurers for quotes? 2 - Did they consider exempting the Dog and any attacks on the public from their Public Liability coverage under the policy? That's usually the problem: people own dangerous pets and then turn to their insurance company to cover them when the dog injures someone. Chows can have a very nasty temper. I was "raised" by one from the time I was just crawling around. "Tuck" was absolutely protective and caring for me - and absolutely dangerous to anyone who approached me who she didn't know. Maybe we need more Dogs like Tuck, but in our litigious society it almost ensures a law suit in the event of a mistake. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Vickie Madeoneup Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:20 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] what the heck I read the post by the family that is missing their dog & that reminded me of a story I'd like to get feedback/opinions from Grovenet on. My friend had a dog that happened to be a chow/german shepard mix. VERY nice loving family dog. Their home is owned by my friends mother & when the mother filled out the renewal homeowners insurance papers it asked about pets. As it turns out the insurance would increase about 5 times for a dog that happens to be a chow or a german shephard, so they had to pay the much higher premium or get rid of the family pet. They very painfully and tearfully got rid of the pet. Allied insurance sent them a letter telling them "they were sorry for their inconvenience" which hurt & stung a little more. How can that be right that they increase their insurance on a particular breed? This dog had been a pet for several years. Love to hear your perspective, she would like to pursue getting this changed even though it is too late for her dog but doesn't know where or how. Any thoughts or ideas? Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 16:40:24 2005 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j090eOEV041480 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id AD1BBD62C for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id QAA06531; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRZI6P8zdEHxx668VPhtmOHXJpwcAIUf4XOMdb52z6k/cv5jsB/ufmgSEo= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:40:18 -0800 To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Message-ID: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] "she's female" X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:40:24 -0000 Ron... this crack you made earlier I fear .. is gonna get you in whole lota HOT WATER.. at least with wives and mothers in the grove... ~alan~ sure glad I am up here right now ~ Hoss From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 8 17:04:48 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0914lVx045732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FF6B013 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:29 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4f5e7$30e74590$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:04:48 -0000 I did not mean that comment as a "crack" (jest). Far from it. I've worked for women managers, with women colleagues, and had a number of women on my staff in various roles. I've yet to see a woman who didn't have to face the fact that she was distrusted by someone simply because of her gender. Truth be told, it happens to men at times too, but it seems to me that it happens far more often to women. And, in our society, the consequences of being distrusted are much more onerous for women than men, especially professional women. Just try to picture the reaction to Hillary had it been she who had an affair instead of Bill. Indeed, it seems to me that many people simply assume that any successful professional woman is so because of some illegitimate act. Witness Robert's assumptions about Hillary and the campaign fund raising issue. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of alan Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:40 PM To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] "she's female" Ron... this crack you made earlier I fear .. is gonna get you in whole lota HOT WATER.. at least with wives and mothers in the grove... ~alan~ sure glad I am up here right now ~ Hoss _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sat Jan 8 17:19:43 2005 Received: from cepheus.email.starband.net (cepheus.email.starband.net [148.78.247.123]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j091Jg05048689 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:19:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by cepheus.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j091LZoV021286 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:21:40 -0500 Message-ID: <026201c4f5e9$cecad180$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:23:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:19:43 -0000 What would be shocking is if she wasn't female. If i had a problem with a woman running things I wouldn't have spent 30 years as a junior partner in a lawfirm headed by a woman. Indeed in presidential politics, I was an early fan of Liddy Dole in her failed campaign for president. My problem with Hill is that in my view she is a crook. You all recall that in her legal career she represented personally and extensively a certain savings and Loan institution in Little Rock. When it finally failed, she and her lawfirm then obtained the contract from the FSLIC to investigate this same savings and loan to see if it had done anything illegal. Now if a lawyer would do that in Oregon they would surely get disbarred. She wasn't so I assume ethical expectations of attorneys are a bit different in Little Rock if you are the governor's wife at least, but it is simply something that I can not accept. It does not come close to meeting my standards of personal integrity, nor was it a trival or little matter or one that I can rationalize overlooking. ----- Original Message ----- From: "alan" To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: [Grovenet] "she's female" > Ron... > this crack you made earlier I fear .. is gonna get you in whole lota HOT > WATER.. > at least with wives and mothers in the grove... > > ~alan~ sure glad I am up here right now ~ Hoss > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 17:21:48 2005 Received: from smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j091LmL4049181 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3201.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 98E95D653; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id RAA14711; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQUi+XJUfs5a35K4nAiAAbVsp9AFAIUXpq+tGMqc3gWJKwBOvrocYk5J3M= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:21:42 -0800 To: ron@cobi.biz, grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: RE: [Grovenet] "she's female" Message-ID: <27552-41E08726-1358@storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" 's message of Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:29 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:21:48 -0000 Ron ... Point taken.. ~alan~ Ron wrote ... I did not mean that comment as a "crack" (jest). Far from it. I've worked for women managers, with women colleagues, and had a number of women on my staff in various roles. I've yet to see a woman who didn't have to face the fact that she was distrusted by someone simply because of her gender. Truth be told, it happens to men at times too, but it seems to me that it happens far more often to women. And, in our society, the consequences of being distrusted are much more onerous for women than men, especially professional women. Just try to picture the reaction to Hillary had it been she who had an affair instead of Bill. From edavie@oregonmta.org Sat Jan 8 18:23:27 2005 Received: from mails12.megamailservers.com (mails12.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j092NQma061997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails12.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j092NIEM000351 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:23:25 -0500 Message-ID: <00b901c4f5f2$308c0530$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050108202224.97178.qmail@web11408.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:23:17 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:23:27 -0000 Just curious. What make of vehicle? Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Vickie Madeoneup=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:22 PM Subject: [Grovenet] again... what the heck ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would like to hear what you all think of it. We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. Our check engine light was on, has been since February. They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light is on. They say that is mandated by the EPA.=20 I think that's absurb! The check engine light will come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal Moore told me this is one of their biggest complaints and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even if your emissions come out ok.=20 My situation was the light came on in February, it cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told them a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine light on. But that became a problem when we needed to pass DEQ. DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check the newer vehicles but it seems like something better ought to be figured out. Love to hear your thoughts. Vickie __________________________________=20 Do you Yahoo!?=20 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Oberzil@aol.com Sat Jan 8 18:31:57 2005 Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j092Vuxg063939 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Oberzil@aol.com) Received: from Oberzil@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.129.53f7e57e (4004) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:26:38 -0500 (EST) From: Oberzil@aol.com Message-ID: <129.53f7e57e.2f11f05d@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:26:37 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! (part II) To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:31:57 -0000 The Ends of the World as We Know Them By JARED DIAMOND=20 Published: January 1, 2005 =20 Tim Lane ARTICLE TOOLS E-Mail This Article Printer-Friendly Format Most E-Mailed Articles =20 READERS' OPINIONS Forum: Join a Discussion on Op-Ed Contributors =20 1.Op-Ed Contributor: The Ends of the World as We Know Them 2.Evangelical Leader Threatens to Use His Political Muscle Against Some=20 Democrats 3.Op-Ed Contributor: Even Einstein Had His Off Days 4.Editorial: The Saudi Syndrome 5.Gauging Disaster: How Scientists and Victims Watched Helplessly Go to Complete List os Angeles =E2=80=94 NEW Year's weekend traditionally is a time for us to re= flect,=20 and to make resolutions based on our reflections. In this fresh year, with t= he=20 United States seemingly at the height of its power and at the start of a new= =20 presidential term, Americans are increasingly concerned and divided about wh= ere=20 we are going. How long can America remain ascendant? Where will we stand 10=20 years from now, or even next year? Such questions seem especially appropriate this year. History warns us that=20 when once-powerful societies collapse, they tend to do so quickly and=20 unexpectedly. That shouldn't come as much of a surprise: peak power usually=20= means peak=20 population, peak needs, and hence peak vulnerability. What can be learned fr= om=20 history that could help us avoid joining the ranks of those who declined=20 swiftly? We must expect the answers to be complex, because historical realit= y is=20 complex: while some societies did indeed collapse spectacularly, others have= =20 managed to thrive for thousands of years without major reversal. When it comes to historical collapses, five groups of interacting factors=20 have been especially important: the damage that people have inflicted on the= ir=20 environment; climate change; enemies; changes in friendly trading partners;=20= and=20 the society's political, economic and social responses to these shifts. That= 's=20 not to say that all five causes play a role in every case. Instead, think of= =20 this as a useful checklist of factors that should be examined, but whose=20 relative importance varies from case to case. For instance, in the collapse of the Polynesian society on Easter Island=20 three centuries ago, environmental problems were dominant, and climate chang= e,=20 enemies and trade were insignificant; however, the latter three factors play= ed=20 big roles in the disappearance of the medieval Norse colonies on Greenland.=20 Let's consider two examples of declines stemming from different mixes of cau= ses:=20 the falls of classic Maya civilization and of Polynesian settlements on the=20 Pitcairn Islands.=20 Maya Native Americans of the Yucatan Peninsula and adjacent parts of Central= =20 America developed the New World's most advanced civilization before Columbus= .=20 They were innovators in writing, astronomy, architecture and art. From local= =20 origins around 2,500 years ago, Maya societies rose especially after the yea= r=20 A.D. 250, reaching peaks of population and sophistication in the late 8th=20 century.=20 Thereafter, societies in the most densely populated areas of the southern=20 Yucatan underwent a steep political and cultural collapse: between 760 and 9= 10,=20 kings were overthrown, large areas were abandoned, and at least 90 percent o= f=20 the population disappeared, leaving cities to become overgrown by jungle. Th= e=20 last known date recorded on a Maya monument by their so-called Long Count=20 calendar corresponds to the year 909. What happened? A major factor was environmental degradation by people: deforestation, soil=20 erosion and water management problems, all of which resulted in less food.=20 Those problems were exacerbated by droughts, which may have been partly caus= ed by=20 humans themselves through deforestation. Chronic warfare made matters worse,= =20 as more and more people fought over less and less land and resources.=20 Why weren't these problems obvious to the Maya kings, who could surely see=20 their forests vanishing and their hills becoming eroded? Part of the reason=20= was=20 that the kings were able to insulate themselves from problems afflicting the= =20 rest of society. By extracting wealth from commoners, they could remain well= =20 fed while everyone else was slowly starving.=20 What's more, the kings were preoccupied with their own power struggles. They= =20 had to concentrate on fighting one another and keeping up their images throu= gh=20 ostentatious displays of wealth. By insulating themselves in the short run=20 from the problems of society, the elite merely bought themselves the privile= ge=20 of being among the last to starve. Whereas Maya societies were undone by problems of their own making,=20 Polynesian societies on Pitcairn and Henderson Islands in the tropical Pacif= ic Ocean=20 were undone largely by other people's mistakes. Pitcairn, the uninhabited is= land=20 settled in 1790 by the H.M.S. Bounty mutineers, had actually been populated=20 by Polynesians 800 years earlier. That society, which left behind temple=20 platforms, stone and shell tools and huge garbage piles of fish and bird and= turtle=20 bones as evidence of its existence, survived for several centuries and then=20 vanished. Why? In many respects, Pitcairn and Henderson are tropical paradises, rich in som= e=20 food sources and essential raw materials. Pitcairn is home to Southeast=20 Polynesia's largest quarry of stone suited for making adzes, while Henderson= has=20 the region's largest breeding seabird colony and its only nesting beach for=20= sea=20 turtles. Yet the islanders depended on imports from Mangareva Island, hundre= ds=20 of miles away, for canoes, crops, livestock and oyster shells for making=20 tools.=20 Unfortunately for the inhabitants of Pitcairn and Henderson, their Mangareva= n=20 trading partner collapsed for reasons similar to those underlying the Maya=20 decline: deforestation, erosion and warfare. Deprived of essential imports i= n a=20 Polynesian equivalent of the 1973 oil crisis, the Pitcairn and Henderson=20 societies declined until everybody had died or fled. The Maya and the Henderson and Pitcairn Islanders are not alone, of course.=20 Over the centuries, many other societies have declined, collapsed or died ou= t.=20 Famous victims include the Anasazi in the American Southwest, who abandoned=20 their cities in the 12th century because of environmental problems and clima= te=20 change, and the Greenland Norse, who disappeared in the 15th century because= of=20 all five interacting factors on the checklist. There were also the ancient=20 Fertile Crescent societies, the Khmer at Angkor Wat, the Moche society of Pe= ru -=20 the list goes on.=20 But before we let ourselves get depressed, we should also remember that ther= e=20 is another long list of cultures that have managed to prosper for lengthy=20 periods of time. Societies in Japan, Tonga, Tikopia, the New Guinea Highland= s and=20 Central and Northwest Europe, for example, have all found ways to sustain=20 themselves. What separates the lost cultures from those that survived? Why d= id=20 the Maya fail and the shogun succeed? Half of the answer involves environmental differences: geography deals worse= =20 cards to some societies than to others. Many of the societies that collapsed= =20 had the misfortune to occupy dry, cold or otherwise fragile environments, wh= ile=20 many of the long-term survivors enjoyed more robust and fertile surroundings= .=20 But it's not the case that a congenial environment guarantees success: some=20 societies (like the Maya) managed to ruin lush environments, while other=20 societies - like the Incas, the Inuit, Icelanders and desert Australian Abor= igines -=20 have managed to carry on in some of the earth's most daunting environments. The other half of the answer involves differences in a society's responses t= o=20 problems. Ninth-century New Guinea Highland villagers, 16th-century German=20 landowners, and the Tokugawa shoguns of 17th-century Japan all recognized th= e=20 deforestation spreading around them and solved the problem, either by develo= ping=20 scientific reforestation (Japan and Germany) or by transplanting tree=20 seedlings (New Guinea). Conversely, the Maya, Mangarevans and Easter Islande= rs failed=20 to address their forestry problems and so collapsed. Consider Japan. In the 1600's, the country faced its own crisis of=20 deforestation, paradoxically brought on by the peace and prosperity followin= g the=20 Tokugawa shoguns' military triumph that ended 150 years of civil war. The su= bsequent=20 explosion of Japan's population and economy set off rampant logging for=20 construction of palaces and cities, and for fuel and fertilizer. The shoguns responded with both negative and positive measures. They reduced= =20 wood consumption by turning to light-timbered construction, to fuel-efficien= t=20 stoves and heaters, and to coal as a source of energy. At the same time, the= y=20 increased wood production by developing and carefully managing plantation=20 forests. Both the shoguns and the Japanese peasants took a long-term view: t= he=20 former expected to pass on their power to their children, and the latter exp= ected=20 to pass on their land. In addition, Japan's isolation at the time made it=20 obvious that the country would have to depend on its own resources and could= n't=20 meet its needs by pillaging other countries. Today, despite having the highe= st=20 human population density of any large developed country, Japan is more than=20= 70=20 percent forested. There is a similar story from Iceland. When the island was first settled by=20 the Norse around 870, its light volcanic soils presented colonists with=20 unfamiliar challenges. They proceeded to cut down trees and stock sheep as i= f they=20 were still in Norway, with its robust soils. Significant erosion ensued,=20 carrying half of Iceland's topsoil into the ocean within a century or two. I= celanders=20 became the poorest people in Europe. But they gradually learned from their=20 mistakes, over time instituting stocking limits on sheep and other strict=20 controls, and establishing an entire government department charged with land= scape=20 management. Today, Iceland boasts the sixth-highest per-capita income in the= =20 world.=20 What lessons can we draw from history? The most straightforward: take=20 environmental problems seriously. They destroyed societies in the past, and=20= they are=20 even more likely to do so now. If 6,000 Polynesians with stone tools were ab= le=20 to destroy Mangareva Island, consider what six billion people with metal=20 tools and bulldozers are doing today. Moreover, while the Maya collapse affe= cted=20 just a few neighboring societies in Central America, globalization now means= =20 that any society's problems have the potential to affect anyone else. Just t= hink=20 how crises in Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq have shaped the United States=20 today.=20 Other lessons involve failures of group decision-making. There are many=20 reasons why past societies made bad decisions, and thereby failed to solve o= r even=20 to perceive the problems that would eventually destroy them. One reason=20 involves conflicts of interest, whereby one group within a society (for inst= ance,=20 the pig farmers who caused the worst erosion in medieval Greenland and Icela= nd)=20 can profit by engaging in practices that damage the rest of society. Another= =20 is the pursuit of short-term gains at the expense of long-term survival, as=20 when fishermen overfish the stocks on which their livelihoods ultimately dep= end.=20 History also teaches us two deeper lessons about what separates successful=20 societies from those heading toward failure. A society contains a built-in=20 blueprint for failure if the elite insulates itself from the consequences of= its=20 actions. That's why Maya kings, Norse Greenlanders and Easter Island chiefs=20= made=20 choices that eventually undermined their societies. They themselves did not=20 begin to feel deprived until they had irreversibly destroyed their landscape= . Could this happen in the United States? It's a thought that often occurs to=20 me here in Los Angeles, when I drive by gated communities, guarded by privat= e=20 security patrols, and filled with people who drink bottled water, depend on=20 private pensions, and send their children to private schools. By doing these= =20 things, they lose the motivation to support the police force, the municipal=20= water=20 supply, Social Security and public schools. If conditions deteriorate too mu= ch=20 for poorer people, gates will not keep the rioters out. Rioters eventually=20 burned the palaces of Maya kings and tore down the statues of Easter Island=20 chiefs; they have also already threatened wealthy districts in Los Angeles t= wice=20 in recent decades. In contrast, the elite in 17th-century Japan, as in modern Scandinavia and=20 the Netherlands, could not ignore or insulate themselves from broad societal= =20 problems. For instance, the Dutch upper class for hundreds of years has been= =20 unable to insulate itself from the Netherlands' water management problems fo= r a=20 simple reason: the rich live in the same drained lands below sea level as th= e=20 poor. If the dikes and pumps keeping out the sea fail, the well-off Dutch kn= ow=20 that they will drown along with everybody else, which is precisely what=20 happened during the floods of 1953. The other deep lesson involves a willingness to re-examine long-held core=20 values, when conditions change and those values no longer make sense. The=20 medieval Greenland Norse lacked such a willingness: they continued to view t= hemselves=20 as transplanted Norwegian pastoralists, and to despise the Inuit as pagan=20 hunters, even after Norway stopped sending trading ships and the climate had= =20 grown too cold for a pastoral existence. They died off as a result, leaving=20 Greenland to the Inuit. On the other hand, the British in the 1950's faced u= p to the=20 need for a painful reappraisal of their former status as rulers of a world=20 empire set apart from Europe. They are now finding a different avenue to wea= lth=20 and power, as part of a united Europe. In this New Year, we Americans have our own painful reappraisals to face.=20 Historically, we viewed the United States as a land of unlimited plenty, and= so=20 we practiced unrestrained consumerism, but that's no longer viable in a worl= d=20 of finite resources. We can't continue to deplete our own resources as well=20= as=20 those of much of the rest of the world.=20 Historically, oceans protected us from external threats; we stepped back fro= m=20 our isolationism only temporarily during the crises of two world wars. Now,=20 technology and global interconnectedness have robbed us of our protection. I= n=20 recent years, we have responded to foreign threats largely by seeking=20 short-term military solutions at the last minute.=20 But how long can we keep this up? Though we are the richest nation on earth,= =20 there's simply no way we can afford (or muster the troops) to intervene in t= he=20 dozens of countries where emerging threats lurk - particularly when each=20 intervention these days can cost more than $100 billion and require more tha= n=20 100,000 troops.=20 A genuine reappraisal would require us to recognize that it will be far less= =20 expensive and far more effective to address the underlying problems of publi= c=20 health, population and environment that ultimately cause threats to us to=20 emerge in poor countries. In the past, we have regarded foreign aid as eithe= r=20 charity or as buying support; now, it's an act of self-interest to preserve=20= our=20 own economy and protect American lives. Do we have cause for hope? Many of my friends are pessimistic when they=20 contemplate the world's growing population and human demands colliding with=20 shrinking resources. But I draw hope from the knowledge that humanity's bigg= est=20 problems today are ones entirely of our own making. Asteroids hurtling at us= beyond=20 our control don't figure high on our list of imminent dangers. To save=20 ourselves, we don't need new technology: we just need the political will to=20= face up=20 to our problems of population and the environment. I also draw hope from a unique advantage that we enjoy. Unlike any previous=20 society in history, our global society today is the first with the opportuni= ty=20 to learn from the mistakes of societies remote from us in space and in time.= =20 When the Maya and Mangarevans were cutting down their trees, there were no=20 historians or archaeologists, no newspapers or television, to warn them of t= he=20 consequences of their actions. We, on the other hand, have a detailed chroni= cle=20 of human successes and failures at our disposal. Will we choose to use it?=20 Jared Diamond, who won the 1998 Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for=20 "Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies," is the author of the=20 forthcoming "Collapse: How Societies Choose or Fail to Succeed." Home Delivery of The Times from $2.90/week - Act Now!=20 RELATED ARTICLES Along Public Trail, a Church Recounts Its History (January 23, 2004)=20 Metro Briefing | New York: Manhattan: Grant For Teaching City History =20 (December 18, 2003)=20 The Nation; Debunking America's Enduring Myths (June 29, 2003) $ Transcripts Detail Secret Questioning In 50's by McCarthy (May 6, 2003) $ Find more results for History and United States=20 TOP OPINION ARTICLES Editorial: The Army We Need Sleaze in the Capitol Editorial Observer From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 20:29:59 2005 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j094TxNR085404 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 8BFB8D685; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id UAA01962; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUApMholoeZISmqzW/Gk5l3RP2JaUkCFQCEAJ8Zax+AICArC2+3bZKHvDMa2g== From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:51 -0800 To: edavie@oregonmta.org (Ed Davie), grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Message-ID: <10800-41E0B33F-1134@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:23:17 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:29:59 -0000 Vickie.. simple ... cut the damn wire, and go to a different DEQ From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 20:51:55 2005 Received: from web11405.mail.yahoo.com (web11405.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.235]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j094ptle090455 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:51:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 88458 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 04:51:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=uXgKd6vENQQRz9ZnCVCy8XSafT1AGJmFqDX9VUNuJJKkEO7Xa34BVrSBo9L0P5CWEB3erLoXUqoN3qE+QRGeKKTAAiKyns9QatoT8aPxCP5yr7IYdSR3nNV/woS6g3It3l0UpEFVx2AS0fItnLRaf6G9r/kuKWFgMpkoVDcvutY= ; Message-ID: <20050109045155.88456.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.169] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:51:55 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <10800-41E0B33F-1134@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:51:56 -0000 I did ask about that, Royal Moore told me it's a $10,000 fine. --- alan wrote: > Vickie.. simple ... cut the damn wire, and go to a > different DEQ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sat Jan 8 20:52:50 2005 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j094qo0X090615 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005010904524401100350ine>; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:52:44 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:52:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8a.1dd44439.2f11cc51@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:52:51 -0000 I've got news for you. The US is a Republic. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Oberzil@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:53 PM To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! January 6, 2005 PUBLIC LIVES Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse By CHRIS HEDGES Correction Appended PRINCETON, N.J.http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 20:53:30 2005 Received: from web11402.mail.yahoo.com (web11402.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.232]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j094rTNM090737 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 96593 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 04:53:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z8SA3DanBh7nd9YM+HohEhSzk3RvhYEOZAs8UH4XIiqqCnr/2PcrkxjEeONT3w3joAIDsctaGM4ehFQSEK4yH5ALBLk4c5/eO8pSQI1VpkEeozrZBT6s17kjCEHhr+5C0fd+zCC9JeZ40O5s9a0ya5qbBJK1ULLf5NpBDKTJhfE= ; Message-ID: <20050109045329.96591.qmail@web11402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.169] by web11402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:53:29 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:53:29 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <00b901c4f5f2$308c0530$6601a8c0@700x> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:53:30 -0000 Nissan Pathfinder --- Ed Davie wrote: > Just curious. What make of vehicle? > Ed Davie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vickie Madeoneup > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:22 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > Our > check engine light was on, has been since > February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that > light is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you > even if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked > it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, > the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced > search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 20:54:22 2005 Received: from smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.139]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j094sMOu090869 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 3913ED699 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id UAA02408; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:54:17 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRFL4B3TIaKxZ7pR8koddfsgKBX9wIUQgd4ZwmXWYd/KEXMkFXHKzjgqlU= From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:54:16 -0800 To: grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Message-ID: <10802-41E0B8F8-703@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Vickie Madeoneup 's message of Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:51:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:54:22 -0000 Time for another car From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 21:08:44 2005 Received: from web11403.mail.yahoo.com (web11403.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.233]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0958iD1093740 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 64203 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 05:08:40 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mARzD9fxV/w8auKDXKKljA52VUcaJUZI48dizWecrORK3AO+5LZSDxsMcIBgQHXrh4WMPrbKWW2tyeYICbUNpMr5O2EeKAszVljdnA7I9qqy/Gs8uwBIf3XWZb512XqXj2OxOZLYcZ+r8I66IJNDdcQyD76jCii4spo+Qg+k3Q8= ; Message-ID: <20050109050840.64201.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.169] by web11403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:08:40 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:08:40 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050109001250.55090.qmail@web81410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:08:44 -0000 thanks, I will do that immediately. appreciate your imput. Vickie --- Bonnie Combs wrote: > Vickie, > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > past on a medical insurance matter for my mother. > He gets a staff person to light a fire under the > responsible agency . It may take a while but it > works. > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > Our > check engine light was on, has been since February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light > is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even > if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 8 21:12:49 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j095Cmo5094487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0953F29523 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:12:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:12:25 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f609$d4174590$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <10802-41E0B8F8-703@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j095Cmo5094487 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:12:49 -0000 Alan wrote: Time for another car ------------------------------ Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems? Throw it away and buy a new one? If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On light) by a reputable shop, the repair should have been under warranty, meaning they fix it when it came back on. If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they are the most expensive, but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes on after they fix it, you know where to take it. This isn't "rocket science". However it may be computer science. Cars have so many microprocessors in them today that trying to figure out what they are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full of PC's. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of alan Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Time for another car _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net Sat Jan 8 21:17:38 2005 Received: from smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net [209.240.205.138]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j095HcVn095286 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net) Received: from storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (bay-6me-tv-1a-natpool-1.bay.webtv.net [209.240.207.249]) by smtpout-3203.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 2FCEAD608; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id VAA25076; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:17:32 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUApzLT9xxz2EXIml0MmtukpefFV4sCFDz0jtXBE5bTJUAGJ4lez9+XGB7l From: OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net (alan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:17:32 -0800 To: ron@cobi.biz, grovenet@rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list) Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Message-ID: <3665-41E0BE6C-426@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" 's message of Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:12:25 -0800 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:17:38 -0000 Ron... I did just that .. when my T-Bird was on the fritz .. a got a newer ~P~ Cup ... new tires, low mileage, lic paid up until the end of this year, and who knows ... I might do it again before the years up From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 21:31:42 2005 Received: from web11406.mail.yahoo.com (web11406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.236]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j095Vfi9097776 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21001 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 05:31:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LPvqbEqJA3LfTti6pULOwumxPyZnQBLRFmNCRnjHrJNCg6rZQquj9femQJZS53YqE55Ev2KjLBUKBh2Uc39LoKfdp+RLr4lProvwUmM0uvdY4k7hxzsfgsy5FPuQ53nQBS64vJFQ9DWhyDpllFC0g3adiyW6Lx/GGAk83FNcTYI= ; Message-ID: <20050109053141.20999.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.169] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:31:41 PST Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:31:41 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000001c4f609$d4174590$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:31:42 -0000 Ron I have always agreed that taking it to the dealer is worth the extra money because they should know what they are doing and so, even though more per hour, they should take less time. However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, also the one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with how it was handled and disappointed with their attitude concerning it, although they were honest with me about what DEQ's stance would be. Vickie --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Alan wrote: > > Time for another car > > ------------------------------ > > Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems? > Throw it away and buy a new > one? > > If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On > light) by a reputable > shop, the repair should have been under warranty, > meaning they fix it when > it came back on. > > If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they > are the most expensive, > but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes > on after they fix it, > you know where to take it. > > This isn't "rocket science". However it may be > computer science. Cars have > so many microprocessors in them today that trying to > figure out what they > are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full > of PC's. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of alan > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Time for another car > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jo.david@verizon.net Sat Jan 8 21:41:11 2005 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j095fA9L099581 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:41:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109054110.BORM7873.out006.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:41:10 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:41:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! (part II) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <129.53f7e57e.2f11f05d@aol.com> Message-Id: <1014088C-6201-11D9-83C4-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:41:09 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:41:12 -0000 His book was a good read. David On Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 06:26 PM, Oberzil@aol.com wrote: > The Ends of the World as We Know Them > By JARED DIAMOND > > Published: January 1, 2005 > ... > A genuine reappraisal would require us to recognize that it will be > far less expensive and far more effective to address the underlying > problems of public health, population and environment that ultimately > cause threats to us to emerge in poor countries. In the past, we have > regarded foreign aid as either charity or as buying support; now, it's > an act of self-interest to preserve our own economy and protect > American lives. > Do we have cause for hope?... I draw hope from the knowledge that > humanity's biggest problems today are ones entirely of our own making. > ... To save ourselves, we don't need new technology: we just need the > political will to face up to our problems of population and the > environment. I also draw hope from a unique advantage that we enjoy. > Unlike any previous society in history, our global society today is > the first with the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of societies > remote from us in space and in time. > ... We, on the other hand, have a detailed chronicle of human > successes and failures at our disposal. Will we choose to use it? > Jared Diamond, who won the 1998 Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction > for "Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies," is From ron@cobi.biz Sat Jan 8 21:44:37 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j095iaCH000339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3CFB013 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:44:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:44:15 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f60e$4816df10$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050109053141.20999.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j095iaCH000339 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:44:37 -0000 In our litigious society, the dealer isn't always the one with the "best" fix, but at least they should warranty the fix. Did they say it was unrepairable? Do you have that statement to take to DEQ? I say that dealers aren't always the "best" place because they have to follow sometimes silly rules. Give you a real-world example. One day, when we were still new to Oregon, I jumped in our Ford Escort. No voltage for the starter, or anything else for that matter. The battery had been fine, so I checked for a loose battery connection. Sure 'nuf, I had a bad connection, but not the simple loose nut. The cable had broken away from the clamp that goes onto the battery connection. I attached it temporarily, but it needed a proper repair. Because I didn't know any other place, I drove into a Ford agency service center. I won't say who, out of respect for what they did for me. The service manager came out to tell me that he wasn't sure I wanted them to fix it. "Why"? I asked. "Because," he explained, "The problem is a clamp that costs less than a dollar, but we can't sell you a clamp. All I can sell you is a whole new wiring harness for almost $300, plus installation. It's what Ford requires us to do in this case. If you want to drive it to another shop or go by a parts store you can get just the clamp. There's nothing else wrong with the harness, but because of liability problems, we can't do anything except what the service manual requires of us." I thanked him and took it to AutoZone. Less than a buck and half an hour later it was fixed. I wish for you the same sort of luck I had with an honest person... Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Vickie Madeoneup [mailto:whatsupy2k@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:32 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Ron I have always agreed that taking it to the dealer is worth the extra money because they should know what they are doing and so, even though more per hour, they should take less time. However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, also the one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with how it was handled and disappointed with their attitude concerning it, although they were honest with me about what DEQ's stance would be. Vickie --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Alan wrote: > > Time for another car > > ------------------------------ > > Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems? > Throw it away and buy a new > one? > > If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On > light) by a reputable > shop, the repair should have been under warranty, > meaning they fix it when > it came back on. > > If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they > are the most expensive, > but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes > on after they fix it, > you know where to take it. > > This isn't "rocket science". However it may be > computer science. Cars have > so many microprocessors in them today that trying to > figure out what they > are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full > of PC's. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] > On Behalf Of alan > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Time for another car > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sat Jan 8 23:19:02 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j097J1lp014842 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109063128.USBW8290.out004.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:31:28 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:30:39 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> <026201c4f5e9$cecad180$0300a8c0@WinProxy> In-Reply-To: <026201c4f5e9$cecad180$0300a8c0@WinProxy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501082230.39670.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:31:28 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:19:02 -0000 Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about the billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush family. Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by comparison to the ad nauseum investigations of the Whitewater shenanigans. On Saturday 08 January 2005 17:23, Robert VanNatta wrote: > What would be shocking is if she wasn't female. > > If i had a problem with a woman running things I wouldn't have spent 30 > years as a junior partner in a lawfirm headed by a woman. Indeed in > presidential politics, I was an early fan of Liddy Dole in her failed > campaign for president. > > My problem with Hill is that in my view she is a crook. You all recall > that in her legal career she represented personally and extensively a > certain savings and Loan institution in Little Rock. When it finally > failed, she and her lawfirm then obtained the contract from the FSLIC to > investigate this same savings and loan to see if it had done anything > illegal. Now if a lawyer would do that in Oregon they would surely get > disbarred. She wasn't so I assume ethical expectations of attorneys are a > bit different in Little Rock if you are the governor's wife at least, but > it is simply something that I can not accept. It does not come close to > meeting my standards of personal integrity, nor was it a trival or little > matter or one that I can rationalize overlooking. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "alan" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:40 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > Ron... > > this crack you made earlier I fear .. is gonna get you in whole lota HOT > > WATER.. > > at least with wives and mothers in the grove... > > > > ~alan~ sure glad I am up here right now ~ Hoss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From jerryboone@news.oregonian.com Sat Jan 8 23:45:03 2005 Received: from opubco.oregonian.com (opubco.oregonian.com [64.154.180.250]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j097j2kK019177 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jerryboone@news.oregonian.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by opubco.oregonian.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id j095fIx02056 for grovenet@rdrop.com.; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpo.gw.oregonian.com(172.30.2.240) by mail1.oregonian.com via HAL (V2.1) id xmamail1.007.21.41.018303; Sat, 8 Jan 05 21:41:11 -0800 Received: from PRIDOM-MTA by gw.oregonian.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:39:54 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:39:31 -0800 From: "Jerry Boone" To: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:45:03 -0000 You can't cut the damn wire because DEQ will first turn the engine off and then turn the key on to confirm the light functions...if the light doesn't work, it also is an immediate failure. Ask to have the car tested on the dynamometer to confirm there are no real issues with emissions. If the dyno gives it a clean bill of health, contact the man who heads the DEQ vehicle testing program and ask him what your next step should be. Be prepared to show him receipts for the work done and the dealer's report on the sensor malfunction. You might also go to a repair shop not associated with a dealership. Many of the dealers are staffed with parts changers (it is called "diagnosis by VISA) who keep swapping things 'til they get them right. There are few real mechanics around. The ECM (engine management computer) should give the technician a prompt on what system needs work, but it still takes someone with more than simple proficiency on a computer keyboard to solve the problem. jerry boone lurker/car junkie >>> OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net 01/08/05 20:32 PM >>> Vickie.. simple ... cut the damn wire, and go to a different DEQ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rlo42@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 07:19:08 2005 Received: from web14222.mail.yahoo.com (web14222.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.171.106]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09FJ7ll002417 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rlo42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 8950 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 15:19:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=XIaFpIboEqPirsWL5e2HmDXqpN1PEveZHnxRiXQBOiU/TkwI/oWTuRSISQ+Cw8ja9xLisVMsS695z3oBbpegx6y9Ux3LRz1DqtkY3SbnX4xbJeAy7jug9MvC4YNBQYdRqGm5KCa7nPBbr/ezP8UNgMoI+RMs6kygGXr/GuGMwJc= ; Message-ID: <20050109151907.8948.qmail@web14222.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.12.152.33] by web14222.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:19:07 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:19:07 -0800 (PST) From: -rlo Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050108234000.3390.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:19:08 -0000 Yes I do. And I do think YOU are wrong by using a racist remark. And your remark deserves the same amount of FLAME that Robert's got. I DO NOT disagree with any of your points about the nazi's. (I won't even capitaize that word!) ;) +rlo Eric Canon wrote: Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does it work! People sign on. Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but that's not a racist remark. Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment of my life without apology. Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you really understand what "racist" is in the first place. -rlo wrote: Seig Heil????? +rlo --- Eric Canon wrote: > Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I > inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I > appreciate that it is brought to my attention so > that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean > to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. > > I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be > black until this morning. His color has nothing to > do with it, other than the influence he holds over > black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. > Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such > things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is > right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has > nothing to do with race. It has everything to do > with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics > has nothing to do with race. > > At the same time, did you know that the money to pay > for this "news man's" support came from you and me? > That's right, the Bush Education office paid with > tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as > defined by the great tax cutter himself, who > consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. > > -rlo wrote: > If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! > Seig Heile???? +rlo > > Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: > > Don't you think that was a very racist remark you > made????? > > Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere > for that matter. > > Kurt Wilke > > On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > > > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of > his opponents to endorse > > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks > insisting on being paid off > > before doing anything. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Browning > > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay > conservative commentators to > > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two > feet, so the Bushies pay a > > black commentator to pump the program whenever > possible: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN > interview with the commentator - > > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double > talk suggests he must be a > > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's > the owner!!" Big difference? > > ! ? ! > > > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in > the early stages of Nazi > > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting > out the news and telling us > > how to think!! > > > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After > Being Paid > > > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN > ITS FINAL FORM AND > > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now > being paid by the > > White House to push an agenda on education. > Listeners apparently had no idea > > it was happening. > > > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. > His side of the story > > in a moment next. > > > > > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly > admitting accepting money to > > promote President Bush's education policy. > > > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams > was paid $240,000 to > > plug the "no child left behind" act in his > syndicated broadcast. Some are now > > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and > possibly a congressional > > investigation. > > > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good > morning to you. > > > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, > Bill. How are you? > > > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return > for the money? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted > to Catch Em (ph). And > > what we were doing, they used our media. We own > our syndication, the rights > > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the > country. > > > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay > them. And especially, in > > particular markets that they wanted this "no child > left behind" to be on their > > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what > they paid for. > > > > And in addition to that, which is what our > contract called for -- I made > > it clear because it's something that really > believed in as a commentator, > > something I wrote often about -- that I would use > my contacts with people that > > I knew in different media outlets from time to > time to get them to talk about > > "no child left behind"... > > > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions > here. > > > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose > to your viewers about > > the transaction? > > > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people > whose airwaves that we > > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I > don't -- I can't recall > > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to > persuade people, right? > > And part of your job is to present arguments that > you believe in. And if you > > did present those arguments and were getting money > in return for it, why not > > tell people? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an > issue that I did not > > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the > air, I made a very clear that > > we had a professional relationship where "no child > left behind" was using our > > media as advertising. > > > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. > People look at the > > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in > advertising. They used our > > media. > > > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary > Paige where we produced > > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one > minute commercial. He had > > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on > our commercial reel. > > > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > > > You made money off this, right? > > > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed > by the company. How > > often would you... > > > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the > company, I own the company. > > There's a difference. > > > > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and > promote what you talked > > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that > because when I'm on CNN, > > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf > Blitzer's show, when I'm on > > "CNN MORNING." > > > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that > we talked about "no > > child left behind." But certainly if the issue > arises, it's very possible. I'm > > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an > advocate for it. > > > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in > October, on the 18th of > > October, you came on and talked about that very > thing. Do you recall that > > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite > possible. I mean, I > > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no > child left behind" is an issue > > that was consistently in the media for the last > two years. > > > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you > understand how someone, > > you know, colleagues in the business here would > consider this to be unethical > > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes > from it if, indeed, you're > > promoting values and in ideas and programs in > exchange for cash? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In > fact, I made it clear in > > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA > Today" I can certainly understand > > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I > think you need to > > understand, many of the affiliates that we > broadcast on, we can not use paid > > advertisers. Unless it's a public service > announcement, many of our affiliates > > will not run it. > > > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our > commercials are PSAs. In the > > history of The Right Side Productions, the only > advertisers that we've ever > > had is the National Rifle Association, since the > beginning, "Forest (ph) > > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson > Brothers Bank out of my home > > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, > yes, I understand. But > > the reason why this was able to work because not > only was this a public > > service announcement, and so it passed the muster > for some of our affiliates. > > > > But I understand the conflict... > > > > HEMMER: Sure. > > > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be > concerned. > > > > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm > sorry. I'm out of > > time. > > Would you do it again? > > > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem > with... > > > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell > folks? Would you tell > > your listeners and viewers? > > > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an > obligation to be more > > vociferous about the fact that they are > advertising on our programming. And I > > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, > yes. > > > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it > up. We wanted to get > > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So > thanks, Armstrong, > > appreciate it. > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your > having me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From hannah@teleport.com Sun Jan 9 08:07:26 2005 Received: from fallback-peafowl.pas.sa.earthlink.net (fallback-peafowl.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09G7QgV011035 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hannah@teleport.com) Received: from capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.180]) by fallback-peafowl.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cnf7J-0000gV-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:36:33 -0800 Received: from user-38lco9j.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.97.51]) by capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Cnf7H-0003PZ-00 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:36:32 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 09:38:23 -0600 From: Kristy Gravlin To: GroveNet Forest Grove List Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c4f60e$4816df10$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Another good dealership X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:07:26 -0000 Ron's note about an honest Ford dealer made me think of my experience in Lewiston, ID. We were there for a family occasion, driving my Ford Econoline van, when we noticed that the left headlight was out. I didn't know any mechanics so I stopped at the Ford 'store'. The man who came and looked said quietly to me, "If we fix this, we will have to take the whole left front of the car apart...(the light is very close to all the "engine stuff" (and you can see that I'm lucky to even know that it has "lights and engine stuff")...and it will be $45 dollars an hour (I think...some big number) with about a three hour minimum. You may want to look elsewhere such as "Bob's place" up the hill." (I'm sorry to say that I don't recall the right name for "Bob's place" but I will remember where it is.) I went up there. Bob looked. Bob got a light bulb. Bob slipped his hand in between the light and the engine stuff...put the light bulb in...and charged me something like $1.25. I'd go to that Ford store again. And I bought another Ford. I'd like Ford to know what a quality employee they have...but could not think of how to tell them without getting him in trouble. It does one's heart good to know there are still some ethical business people in the world. Kristy From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 08:30:39 2005 Received: from hestia.email.starband.net (hestia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09GUcGN015567 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by hestia.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09GUJVn031549 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:30:24 -0500 Message-ID: <034401c4f669$1145c2c0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net><026201c4f5e9$cecad180$0300a8c0@WinProxy> <200501082230.39670.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:34:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:30:39 -0000 It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of dollars' out of savings and loans. The entire savings and loan industry will built on an economic model that assumed you could forever collect savings desposits at 3.5% which could be withdrawn at any time and loan them out at 6% for 30 years and make money. When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model failed, and the end of the savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. Some savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got creative in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the edge, if you ultimately fail you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled and the greater the loss that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always intrigued me as to whether the losses would have been significantly different if at the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and driven down to the FSLIC and turned in their keys. to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the business who saw and used the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my take is that many who ended up making license plates were actually genuinely trying to 'save' their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a lot of money for their efforts). As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one of the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while of an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for the position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the bush family has 'billions' because of it. Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and blame anyone in office for anything in the greater family, don't forget that Hill has a brother. (as did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meredith Bliss" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about the > billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush family. > Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by comparison to the ad > nauseum investigations of the Whitewater shenanigans. > From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Sun Jan 9 08:36:40 2005 Received: from smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09Gadxr016775 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.121.137] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cng3S-0006uo-ID for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:36:39 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=h9JYRsruOoXJhS/4K/Q0wex37A7aWPu/xxnwyMKhX4rSTXnpfdv3mF9SOyIzMXpr; Message-ID: <410-22005109163637781@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:36:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c260927479f5d63b5e477a080a9d4e4333f56667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.121.137 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:36:40 -0000 Vickie, we take our cars to Jim's Automotive. They are the best! The prices are very fair and the customer service is better than anything I have experienced anywhere else. > [Original Message] > From: Vickie Madeoneup > To: ; Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/8/2005 9:31:45 PM > Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > Ron > > I have always agreed that taking it to the dealer is > worth the extra money because they should know what > they are doing and so, even though more per hour, they > should take less time. > However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, also > the one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with how > it was handled and disappointed with their attitude > concerning it, although they were honest with me about > what DEQ's stance would be. > > Vickie > --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > > > Alan wrote: > > > > Time for another car > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems? > > Throw it away and buy a new > > one? > > > > If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On > > light) by a reputable > > shop, the repair should have been under warranty, > > meaning they fix it when > > it came back on. > > > > If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they > > are the most expensive, > > but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes > > on after they fix it, > > you know where to take it. > > > > This isn't "rocket science". However it may be > > computer science. Cars have > > so many microprocessors in them today that trying to > > figure out what they > > are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full > > of PC's. > > > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > > Behalf Of alan > > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > > > > Time for another car > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From roger.neyman@pobox.com Sun Jan 9 08:40:14 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09GeDCR017617 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roger.neyman@pobox.com) Received: from RPNLAPTOP ([4.5.61.56]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109164009.ELKG21228.out007.verizon.net@RPNLAPTOP>; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:40:09 -0600 From: "Roger Neyman" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:39:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000001c4f35a$f5c2ff60$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.5.61.56] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:39:57 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: roger.neyman@pobox.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:40:14 -0000 I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable channels of communication. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:16 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work As a licensed Amateur Radio Operator (aka "Ham), I often field questions asking why anyone would be interested in knowing how to build and operate radios for a hobby in these days of instant satellite access by data, voice and even video. Here's one reason: http://tinyurl.com/3zbc5 I think it's a good one . On this side of the ocean, we're a major element in what we now call "homeland security" but has, since WWII, been simply, disaster preparedness. Ron D'Eau Claire _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Sun Jan 9 08:46:36 2005 Received: from smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09GkZE4019082 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.121.137] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CngD5-0001e8-01 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:46:35 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=UEQGKm2Xh3bpRqhWhfuU5z2M2np5rXZ+ZTmYBkyxBc26claMZtwTQuybD6fFqFH4; Message-ID: <410-22005109164634203@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:46:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c2609933bc69e5127988bf47fbf6da2dad49c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.121.137 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:46:36 -0000 I think the Hillary Clinton story will be talked about long after we are all gone from this mortal plane. Remember how much they hated her when she was first lady? They hated Bill too, but they saved just a little special burst of venom for Hillary. I don't know about anybody else, but Hillary Clinton's success and survival gives me a little bit of hope in these dark political times. I was wishing that she had been the second the other day when they were contesting the vote in Ohio. I think its time for Democrats to take off the gloves, stop being so polite, and speak our minds. Why didn't they turn that tape of Condi Rice's 9/11 commission testimony ("I believe the the PDB was titled 'bin Ladden to attack US'") into a poltical ad? Or one of GW strutting around that aircraft carrier with taps being played in the background or coffins being unloaded onto a tarmac? > [Original Message] > From: Ron D'Eau Claire > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/8/2005 4:25:36 PM > Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side > > Julie wrote: > > What is about you guys and Hillary? Why is she so threatening? > > -------------------------------- > > 1. She's female. > > 2. She would have made a better President than Bill. > > 3. She doesn't feel like she has to apologize for her gender. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Sun Jan 9 08:52:52 2005 Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09GqqhQ020293 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.121.137] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CngJ7-00036s-RS for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:52:51 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=bsuNT9RQgUdHPa+tOSOUUsGZlOLLeGg9zfHcl3ewc0Aw8kBE6fTLW1gavRzRDHqb; Message-ID: <410-2200510916524931@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:52:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c2609933bc69e5127988bfdac4c1961a8bac9548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.121.137 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:52:52 -0000 Wasn't it the Tax Reform Act of '86 (ie, Reagan) that ended the S&Ls? When they couldn't book "Good Will" as an asset? The act also brought in the passive loss rules that killed the value of real estate, something the S&Ls were very much invested in. At any rate, it is quite apparent that Neil Bush did fleece the public of billions. The real stink with the Bush family, though, is oil. > [Original Message] > From: Robert VanNatta > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/9/2005 8:30:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of > dollars' out of savings and loans. > The entire savings and loan industry will built on an economic model that > assumed you could forever collect savings desposits at 3.5% which could be > withdrawn at any time and loan them out at 6% for 30 years and make money. > > When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model > failed, and the end of the > savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. Some > savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got creative > in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity > meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the > edge, if you ultimately fail > you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even > worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter > expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. > > The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled and > the greater the loss > that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always intrigued > me as to whether the losses would have been significantly different if at > the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and driven down to the > FSLIC and turned in their keys. > > to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the > business who saw and used > the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my take is that many who > ended up making license plates were actually genuinely trying to 'save' > their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a lot of money for > their efforts). > > As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one of > the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while of > an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for the > position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he > has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the bush family > has 'billions' because of it. > > Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was > running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of > Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. > > Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and > blame anyone in office for > anything in the greater family, don't forget that Hill has a brother. (as > did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Meredith Bliss" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about the > > billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush family. > > Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by comparison to the ad > > nauseum investigations of the Whitewater shenanigans. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Sun Jan 9 08:53:53 2005 Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09Grm4A020498 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:53:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.121.137] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CngK1-0003ab-T1 for grovenet@rdrop.com; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:53:46 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=WurMxwnpJU20D1MREQKrGfEHnzBToU9Tvnp47/YyLepTwAxKQFlCwifMpeAR0bVW; Message-ID: <410-2200510916534562@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:53:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c2609933bc69e5127988bce316294c3c6fce63ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.121.137 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:53:54 -0000 A democratic republic. > [Original Message] > From: Steven > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Date: 1/8/2005 8:52:44 PM > Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > I've got news for you. The US is a Republic. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Oberzil@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:53 PM > To: grovenet@rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > > January 6, 2005 > PUBLIC LIVES > Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse > By CHRIS HEDGES > > Correction Appended > PRINCETON, N.J.http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 08:56:13 2005 Received: from apophis.email.starband.net (apophis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.50]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09GuDtu021214 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:56:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by apophis.email.starband.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j09Guxnm012680; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:57:05 -0500 Message-ID: <038101c4f66c$a2cc10c0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:59:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:56:14 -0000 the hams have always served this function. they are an electronically ingenious group who often have the equipment and skills to operate 'off grid' and make communications work when and while the conventional communications don't. These are the kind of folks who will innovate even if the equipment they have fails. A very valuable national asset. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Neyman" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:39 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work > I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking > that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, > mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. > > Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable > channels of communication. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:16 > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work > > > As a licensed Amateur Radio Operator (aka "Ham), I often field questions > asking why anyone would be interested in knowing how to build and operate > radios for a hobby in these days of instant satellite access by data, voice > and even video. > > Here's one reason: > > http://tinyurl.com/3zbc5 > > I think it's a good one . > > On this side of the ocean, we're a major element in what we now call > "homeland security" but has, since WWII, been simply, disaster > preparedness. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sun Jan 9 09:21:09 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09HL92r026424 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005010917155701400ggruce>; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:15:58 +0000 From: "Steven" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:15:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:21:09 -0000 An interesting note is that the cell phone towers survived the big wave. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Roger Neyman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:40 AM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable channels of communication. -----Original Message----- From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 10:08:50 2005 Received: from hestia.email.starband.net (hestia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09I8otF035806 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by hestia.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09Hdaxe002163; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: <03aa01c4f672$c05de4a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <410-2200510916524931@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:43:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:08:51 -0000 The accounting rule changes did not change the fundamentals of the S & L's.--- they had borrowed short and lent long and were suffering from disinermediation. Prohibitions against phantom assets on the balance sheets only exposed the inherent weakness. Once again debate is possible over the wisdom of shutting the S & L's down. The difference between a bank and a 'bucket shop' is whether they have the financial ability to honor all their deposits. One can always make a case that if the failing institutions had been allowed to sink further, they would have been ultimately able to fight their way back. We will never know to what extent that is true. What is less than clear to me is why the big brush that seems to conclude that anyone that works in the oil business 'stinks'. It's a high risk rought and tumble business which at best involves making highly speculative investments, many of which fail (dry holes) and others of which pay big (which they need to to make up for the dry holes).. Itis a business which surely needs to be done, and I don't see why someone 'stinks' because that is their occupation. to be sure some in the occupation---like any other occupation--have higher ethical standards than others. As for our current president Bush, most of his work in the OIl industry has been unsuccessful in the sense that he has never made much money at it, but it is not clear to my in your broad brush stroke if you are complaining because he didn't do well at it or because he did too well. Just where are the 'billions' that Neil fleeced. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > Wasn't it the Tax Reform Act of '86 (ie, Reagan) that ended the S&Ls? When > they couldn't book "Good Will" as an asset? The act also brought in the > passive loss rules that killed the value of real estate, something the S&Ls > were very much invested in. At any rate, it is quite apparent that Neil > Bush did fleece the public of billions. The real stink with the Bush > family, though, is oil. > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Robert VanNatta > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Date: 1/9/2005 8:30:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > > It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of > > dollars' out of savings and loans. > > The entire savings and loan industry will built on an economic model that > > assumed you could forever collect savings desposits at 3.5% which could be > > withdrawn at any time and loan them out at 6% for 30 years and make money. > > > > When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model > > failed, and the end of the > > savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. > Some > > savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got > creative > > in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity > > meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the > > edge, if you ultimately fail > > you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even > > worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter > > expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. > > > > The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled > and > > the greater the loss > > that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always > intrigued > > me as to whether the losses would have been significantly different if at > > the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and driven down to > the > > FSLIC and turned in their keys. > > > > to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the > > business who saw and used > > the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my take is that many who > > ended up making license plates were actually genuinely trying to 'save' > > their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a lot of money for > > their efforts). > > > > As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one > of > > the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while of > > an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for > the > > position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence that > he > > has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the bush > family > > has 'billions' because of it. > > > > Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was > > running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of > > Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. > > > > Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and > > blame anyone in office for > > anything in the greater family, don't forget that Hill has a brother. (as > > did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Meredith Bliss" > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > > > > > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about the > > > billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush > family. > > > Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by comparison to the > ad > > > nauseum investigations of the Whitewater shenanigans. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 10:11:22 2005 Received: from hestia.email.starband.net (hestia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09IBLPB036406 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by hestia.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09IB0xe017561; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:11:06 -0500 Message-ID: <03c901c4f677$2255b580$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <410-22005109164634203@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:14:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:11:22 -0000 It is not apparent that sinking to new lows on negative advertizing is a constructive solution. If you listen to the multitude of applicants for the position of DNC chair, that is not the theme of any of the leading candidates. Each one is presenting essentially the same message: If the D's are to be successful in presidential politics over time, they have to present a message, and have a plan for being more than a 20 state party. If the D's were to hatch a plan that would carry Texas---the R's wouldln't have a prayer of winning the presidency. Now lets see if any of your ideas would further that goal: 1) equating anyone who works in the oil industry with 'stink'? 2) Organizing a character attaack on the most prominant black woman ever to to work in the white house. 3) Bash the military which is very popular in the south. Now which of your three plans is going to send voters in the south and midwest swarming to vote D??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Larson" To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:46 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman > I think its time for Democrats to take off the gloves, stop being so > polite, and speak our minds. Why didn't they turn that tape of Condi > Rice's 9/11 commission testimony ("I believe the the PDB was titled 'bin > Ladden to attack US'") into a poltical ad? Or one of GW strutting around > that aircraft carrier with taps being played in the background or coffins > being unloaded onto a tarmac? > From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 10:27:42 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09IRg8q039972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DE629527 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:19 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001101c4f678$dfbb50c0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <034401c4f669$1145c2c0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j09IRg8q039972 Subject: [Grovenet] Savings and Loan Debacle (WAS: "she's female") X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:27:43 -0000 >From this Realtor's experience in the 1980's, one of the biggest problems with S&L's back then was appraisals. And appraisals were a problem because of a fundamental failing in how business tends to work in general. Let's start with appraisals. In the 1980's, anyone with a real estate license of some sort could do a property appraisal. That meant than any licensed sales associate, even one with zero experience, had a ready income from lenders, mostly S&L's, who needed appraisals done as part of writing a loan. I think they paid $25 or $50, if I recall correctly. I never did one, but I got called. They'd call every licensee in the phone book looking for people to do appraisals for them. All you had to do to get your $50 was fill out the lender's forms and be certain the appraised value was what they said it needed to be for the loan to be granted. If you didn't justify the loan, you didn't get another offer to do an appraisal. After all, the S&L only made money if they granted the loan. While I didn't do any appraisals, I did see the effects. One property I was trying to market had been refinanced after it had been appraised at $130,000 (this in the mid-80's). It sure didn't look like a $110,00 property to me. By the time I gave up on it, we were trying to sell it for the value of the mortgage to get the owner out from under: $80,000. We did not have a single nibble at that price. A realistic appraised value was actually something around $60,000. The skyrocketing interest rates at that time were severely depressing property values. That story was repeated hundreds and hundreds of times over in the little town of Santa Cruz alone every year. Those properties became Real Estate owned by the S&L or Bank as the owners simply walked away. The one I was familiar with finally sold for about $30,000 if I recall correctly. The S&L took the $90,000 loss. Do that a few thousand times and an S&L can be in real trouble. Today appraisers are licensed and carefully-monitored by the state. They are liable for their mistakes. A licensed appraiser can't even do an appraisal before spending a couple of years working under the supervision of another appraiser. Today Cobi can research a property and give the owner a "Broker's Price Opinion" which she takes pride in seeing invariably comes within a percent or two of an appraisal, but it is not an "appraisal" nor will you see either of us ever refer to it as such, nor will any other real estate broker do so under the law. We do them for clients who are planning to sell and for people who simply want to know that their property would be worth if sold today. But an appraisal is quite a different thing under today's law. It involves more regulation, liability and cost, even though the methodology and the results are indistinguishable from the broker's price opinion - when the price opinion is done correctly. It's another case of having to restrain business from doing what business wants to do - stay in busies tomorrow and the Devil may take the future. The Devil often does. Any idiot could see the gigantic hole the S&L's were digging as their own graves in their over-assessed values on everything from a mountain cabin to a downtown high-rise office building, but all the managers and employees were measured on was whether they'd open the doors and pay their investors a nice profit tomorrow. That's exactly what they did. From the contract appraiser trying to pick up a quick $50 to the general manager, they were doing the job they were being asked to do. That's where a "free market" falls apart. It too often takes only the short term view of its actions. Frankly, I can't believe that anyone in the S&L business was surprised when the crash came. They were only disappointed that it finally did come at long last. From their viewpoint, it would have been nice if it had carried on for another year or two. Personally, I hate to see continuous layers of laws regulating business. At the same time, I'm very glad they are there, in most cases, because business has never found a way to reward itself for taking the best long-term view of it's actions. Maybe it's just because humans have short lifetimes and want to retire early, but we seem to have a very hard time taking a long-term look at the consequences of our choices today. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Robert VanNatta Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:34 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of dollars' out of savings and loans. The entire savings and loan industry will built on an economic model that assumed you could forever collect savings desposits at 3.5% which could be withdrawn at any time and loan them out at 6% for 30 years and make money. When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model failed, and the end of the savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. Some savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got creative in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the edge, if you ultimately fail you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled and the greater the loss that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always intrigued me as to whether the losses would have been significantly different if at the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and driven down to the FSLIC and turned in their keys. to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the business who saw and used the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my take is that many who ended up making license plates were actually genuinely trying to 'save' their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a lot of money for their efforts). As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one of the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while of an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for the position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the bush family has 'billions' because of it. Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and blame anyone in office for anything in the greater family, don't forget that Hill has a brother. (as did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meredith Bliss" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about > the billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush > family. Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by > comparison to the ad nauseum investigations of the Whitewater > shenanigans. > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 10:27:44 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09IRhGo039955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1B029524 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:19 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001001c4f678$dfa77aa0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j09IRhGo039955 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:27:45 -0000 Roger Neyman wrote: I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable channels of communication. ----------------------------------------------------------- That's right. The telephone system - cellular or wired - has the capacity to handle an 'average' number of calls, so even if the towers and interconnections are functioning the system is quickly overwhelmed in an emergency. As Roger noted, in serious emergencies the network is often damaged as well. And that includes internet access. Here in the USA we actually experience a wholesale shutdown of conventional communications over large areas every year. A number of Amateur Radio communications networks activate to provide essential emergency communications if things are really bad or simply handle "health and welfare" messages letting relatives know the condition of family members in the troubled area without using up precious bandwidth on the phone lines. Those areas are, of course, the hurricane and tornado effected regions we get annually. Less often, that kicks in here in the west when California gets the shakes. In other areas like here in Oregon, Hams do a lot of community service work such as providing monitors along marathon courses and parade routes to keep track of participants and be ready to call help instantly in case there's an emergency. They seldom have a critical role to play, but it's good practice to be sure the organization is in place and the operators trained for the day it's really needed. I know of situations where a runner failed to show up at a check point and was quickly found along the route suffering from a heart attack. A prompt call on a portable Ham radio got medical attention there in time. If anyone's interested we have WEB sites of course: http://tinyurl.com/6yobv for the Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service (RACES), and http://tinyurl.com/7x5m2 for the National Radio Emergency Network. Ron D'Eau Claire, licensee of amateur radio station AC7AC From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 10:27:48 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09IRlAU039973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85452952A for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Another good dealership Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:27:19 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001201c4f678$dfcda040$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j09IRlAU039973 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:27:48 -0000 Great story, Kristy! Those guys are heroes because if the company found out, they'd have to fire them! If they didn't, then Ford (or whoever) would be "allowing" such unauthorized service procedures and share responsibility in all the law suits some silly person can think to file because of them. What the agency service guy told me about the Escort's wiring harness made some oddball sense, because one of the most "dangerous" places to work on car wiring is on the cables leading directly to the battery. It's not really dangerous compared to crossing a street in downtown Portland, but it's more dangerous than other wiring in a car because those cables leading from the battery have no fuses or other protective devices. If some idiot manages to create a short, a good battery will pump hundreds of amperes of current through the wire, melt it and could very easily set the car on fire. The auto manufacturer gets sued. One might ask if a laborer working for $2 a day in China making those $300 Ford wiring harnesses can do better. At least they get assembled a certain way and then tested before being installed. That's two or three levels of separation between the automobile fire and a lawsuit as far as Ford is concerned. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Kristy Gravlin Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:38 AM To: GroveNet Forest Grove List Subject: [Grovenet] Another good dealership Ron's note about an honest Ford dealer made me think of my experience in Lewiston, ID. We were there for a family occasion, driving my Ford Econoline van, when we noticed that the left headlight was out. I didn't know any mechanics so I stopped at the Ford 'store'. The man who came and looked said quietly to me, "If we fix this, we will have to take the whole left front of the car apart...(the light is very close to all the "engine stuff" (and you can see that I'm lucky to even know that it has "lights and engine stuff")...and it will be $45 dollars an hour (I think...some big number) with about a three hour minimum. You may want to look elsewhere such as "Bob's place" up the hill." (I'm sorry to say that I don't recall the right name for "Bob's place" but I will remember where it is.) I went up there. Bob looked. Bob got a light bulb. Bob slipped his hand in between the light and the engine stuff...put the light bulb in...and charged me something like $1.25. I'd go to that Ford store again. And I bought another Ford. I'd like Ford to know what a quality employee they have...but could not think of how to tell them without getting him in trouble. It does one's heart good to know there are still some ethical business people in the world. Kristy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 10:52:56 2005 Received: from artemis.email.starband.net (artemis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09IqtsX045812 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by artemis.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09JiVLi003560; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:44:39 -0500 Message-ID: <03e301c4f67c$e57bf420$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <001101c4f678$dfbb50c0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Savings and Loan Debacle (WAS: "she's female") Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:56:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:52:56 -0000 Appraisers certainly got a share of the blame, and as you document many were done casually. Likewise lots of 'scandal' as associated with casual appraisals, flipping, and such things which resulted in major lending losses. Large trouble spots related to partially completed speculative developments. How on earth to you 'appraise' a partially completed resort development in the mountains? These things are either really successful or spectacular failures, and when they are half built and come in for a refinance----what is the value? answer--either a lot or nothing and it is hard to tell which is which. Still though, I see the appriasal problem as more symptomatic. ---- Realestate values had been going up for a long time. People forget they can go down. Much of the 'value' is simply built on credit, created by the fact that institutions are willing to lend money against it. However once the institutions begin to suffer disintermediation because they are paying 15% on CD's and and have a book of loans yielding 6% whether they have loan losses piled on top of that doesn't change much. Not unexpectedly when they get out of the lending business---realestate prices suffer because credit is what had them 'up there' in the first place so we end up blaming the appraiser who was looking at a small part of a bigger picture ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:27 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Savings and Loan Debacle (WAS: "she's female") > >From this Realtor's experience in the 1980's, one of the biggest problems > with S&L's back then was appraisals. And appraisals were a problem because > of a fundamental failing in how business tends to work in general. > > Let's start with appraisals. In the 1980's, anyone with a real estate > license of some sort could do a property appraisal. That meant than any > licensed sales associate, even one with zero experience, had a ready income > from lenders, mostly S&L's, who needed appraisals done as part of writing a > loan. I think they paid $25 or $50, if I recall correctly. I never did one, > but I got called. They'd call every licensee in the phone book looking for > people to do appraisals for them. > > All you had to do to get your $50 was fill out the lender's forms and be > certain the appraised value was what they said it needed to be for the loan > to be granted. If you didn't justify the loan, you didn't get another offer > to do an appraisal. After all, the S&L only made money if they granted the > loan. > > While I didn't do any appraisals, I did see the effects. One property I was > trying to market had been refinanced after it had been appraised at $130,000 > (this in the mid-80's). It sure didn't look like a $110,00 property to me. > By the time I gave up on it, we were trying to sell it for the value of the > mortgage to get the owner out from under: $80,000. We did not have a single > nibble at that price. A realistic appraised value was actually something > around $60,000. The skyrocketing interest rates at that time were severely > depressing property values. > > That story was repeated hundreds and hundreds of times over in the little > town of Santa Cruz alone every year. Those properties became Real Estate > owned by the S&L or Bank as the owners simply walked away. The one I was > familiar with finally sold for about $30,000 if I recall correctly. The S&L > took the $90,000 loss. Do that a few thousand times and an S&L can be in > real trouble. > > Today appraisers are licensed and carefully-monitored by the state. They are > liable for their mistakes. A licensed appraiser can't even do an appraisal > before spending a couple of years working under the supervision of another > appraiser. > > Today Cobi can research a property and give the owner a "Broker's Price > Opinion" which she takes pride in seeing invariably comes within a percent > or two of an appraisal, but it is not an "appraisal" nor will you see either > of us ever refer to it as such, nor will any other real estate broker do so > under the law. We do them for clients who are planning to sell and for > people who simply want to know that their property would be worth if sold > today. But an appraisal is quite a different thing under today's law. It > involves more regulation, liability and cost, even though the methodology > and the results are indistinguishable from the broker's price opinion - when > the price opinion is done correctly. > > It's another case of having to restrain business from doing what business > wants to do - stay in busies tomorrow and the Devil may take the future. The > Devil often does. Any idiot could see the gigantic hole the S&L's were > digging as their own graves in their over-assessed values on everything from > a mountain cabin to a downtown high-rise office building, but all the > managers and employees were measured on was whether they'd open the doors > and pay their investors a nice profit tomorrow. > > That's exactly what they did. From the contract appraiser trying to pick up > a quick $50 to the general manager, they were doing the job they were being > asked to do. > > That's where a "free market" falls apart. It too often takes only the short > term view of its actions. Frankly, I can't believe that anyone in the S&L > business was surprised when the crash came. They were only disappointed that > it finally did come at long last. From their viewpoint, it would have been > nice if it had carried on for another year or two. > > Personally, I hate to see continuous layers of laws regulating business. At > the same time, I'm very glad they are there, in most cases, because business > has never found a way to reward itself for taking the best long-term view of > it's actions. > > Maybe it's just because humans have short lifetimes and want to retire > early, but we seem to have a very hard time taking a long-term look at the > consequences of our choices today. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Robert VanNatta > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:34 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of > dollars' out of savings and loans. The entire savings and loan industry will > built on an economic model that assumed you could forever collect savings > desposits at 3.5% which could be withdrawn at any time and loan them out at > 6% for 30 years and make money. > > When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model > failed, and the end of the > savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. Some > savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got creative > in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity > meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the > edge, if you ultimately fail > you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even > worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter > expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. > > The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled and > the greater the loss > that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always intrigued > me as to whether the losses would have been significantly different if at > the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and driven down to the > FSLIC and turned in their keys. > > to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the > business who saw and used the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my > take is that many who ended up making license plates were actually genuinely > trying to 'save' their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a > lot of money for their efforts). > > As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one of > the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while of > an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for the > position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he > has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the bush family > has 'billions' because of it. > > Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was > running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of > Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. > > Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and > blame anyone in office for anything in the greater family, don't forget that > Hill has a brother. (as did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Meredith Bliss" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about > > the billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush > > family. Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by > > comparison to the ad nauseum investigations of the Whitewater > > shenanigans. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:01:10 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09J19VL047599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61D06DC00C; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:01:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E17F6F.3090406@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:01:03 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work References: <001001c4f678$dfa77aa0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <001001c4f678$dfa77aa0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:01:10 -0000 Ron and other "Hams" - One question I have had for years and it should be simple to answer - do you use battery packs or portable generators to keep yourselves "up" when the local power supplies are out? bob "enquiring minds are just kind of curious" browning Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >Roger Neyman wrote: > >I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking >that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, >mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. > >Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable >channels of communication. > >----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:09:01 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09J91Ob049310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB422364003; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E1814E.1040907@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:09:02 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:09:01 -0000 Yes, but at the bottom of most towers (at least here in the states) is a small house with a whole lot of electronics needed to make the tower work, including emergency power supplies. And I,m not sure many of those survived the waves even if the towers did. On another point, if we were really into emergency planning in this country, we'd have a system by which a properly approved and monitored civil disaster agency could cut off the cell phone system so that (for at least an hour or so) only those with the proper code could get in. Then there wouldn't be a total collapse of the system due to overloading. A final note - I saw in one of the article that Sweden (home to the largest cell phone manufacturer Nokia) had a system so some 10,000 Swedish cell phone users known to be in Southeast Asia by their phone usage go a message asking them to call a particular number to assure that they were okay. Never heard any thing more on that, but wondered if such a system is available here in the use for emergency use. bob "still wondering" browning Steven wrote: >An interesting note is that the cell phone towers survived the big wave. > >-----Original Message----- >From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On >Behalf Of Roger Neyman >Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:40 AM >To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list >Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work > > >I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not thinking >that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. Yes, >mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. > >Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only reliable >channels of communication. > >-----Original Message----- >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:10:37 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JAaYf049719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:10:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564E36DC017; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:10:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E181AE.8000906@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:10:38 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! References: <410-2200510916534562@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200510916534562@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:10:37 -0000 According to Shrub it's a Republican republic!!

bob "watching the Palestinian voting" browning

Julie Larson wrote:
A democratic republic. 


  
[Original Message]
From: Steven <NoSpam03@comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com>
Date: 1/8/2005 8:52:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! 

I've got news for you. The US is a Republic.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Oberzil@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:53 PM
To: grovenet@rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! 


 

January 6, 2005
PUBLIC LIVES 
Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse
By CHRIS HEDGES 

Correction Appended
PRINCETON, N.J.http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet@rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
    


_______________________________________________
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http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:28:43 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JShei053827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139DE364003; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E185EF.5080007@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:28:47 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] flip side References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:28:43 -0000 Sorry, I was too busy emoting over the break up of Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston!! bob "got to watch out for the really important stuff" browning Steven wrote: >Here's one Bob failed to post. >http://tinyurl.com/6kynv >Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's former finance director has been indicted on >charges of filing fictitious reports that misstated contributions for a >Hollywood fund-raising gala for the senator, the Justice Department said >Friday. > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:31:44 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JVi0j054546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23406DC00C; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:31:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E186A1.500@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:31:45 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Chinese word for merry xmas is References: <329DAF7A-6146-11D9-941B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <329DAF7A-6146-11D9-941B-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:31:44 -0000 Sorry I haven't had a chance to respond to this earlier, but I thought that Shun Dan Kuale was Chinese for "Watch out for the Vice-President'? ! ? ! ? bob "just wondering??" browning David Morelli wrote: > Chris, > > We currently have a Chinese national living with us, so I showed them > your two postings. > > Shun Dan is based upon their pronouncation of "Santa", and they said > it comes from European culture. > > While they agreed that Shun Dan Kuale could mean "man without egg", > they had never heard of the story of the man's frozen body parts. So, > rather than a traditional story, I suspect that it may be a regional > joke based upon the name. > > David > > O From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 11:32:35 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JWYGr054692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D62B021 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:09 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001a01c4f681$f1ac6e00$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <410-22005109164634203@earthlink.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j09JWYGr054692 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:32:35 -0000 All I can say is a politically incorrect but heartfelt "Amen!" Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- Julie Larson wrote: I think the Hillary Clinton story will be talked about long after we are all gone from this mortal plane. Remember how much they hated her when she was first lady? They hated Bill too, but they saved just a little special burst of venom for Hillary. I don't know about anybody else, but Hillary Clinton's success and survival gives me a little bit of hope in these dark political times. I was wishing that she had been the second the other day when they were contesting the vote in Ohio. I think its time for Democrats to take off the gloves, stop being so polite, and speak our minds. Why didn't they turn that tape of Condi Rice's 9/11 commission testimony ("I believe the the PDB was titled 'bin Ladden to attack US'") into a poltical ad? Or one of GW strutting around that aircraft carrier with taps being played in the background or coffins being unloaded onto a tarmac? From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 11:32:39 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JWdsk054687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A9FB020 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:09 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001901c4f681$ee9f7c20$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <03c901c4f677$2255b580$0300a8c0@WinProxy> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j09JWdsk054687 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:32:40 -0000 I agree with both of you. Any time someone takes a "broad brush" and tries to paint a person "one color" they are going to be wrong, in my experience. Still, I agree with Julie that we need to look at what stand a person takes and react accordingly. That's why President G.W. Bush had no better chance of getting my vote than Adolph Hitler or Osama Bin Laden. We need to take off the gloves when it comes to getting the facts across. I do not believe that the American people are idiots or self-serving sycophants, although about half of them voted as if they were in November and put a man in office who is clearly dishonest or crazy or both. We did in November what people like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Castro and others have predicted America would do. They predicted that we would quake in fear and support any petty tyrant who we felt could help us buy a new car and keep us safe from the world outside our borders for another week or another year. It's time for those of us who believe that America should lead the world, who believe that it's time for America to take the high moral ground and stop using our position as justification for the murder and rape of other peoples and their countries, or for the fulfillment of our selfish dreams at the expense of the lives of others, to speak out and keep speaking out. We need to speak out not with the insane, frantic rhetoric of the extreme right, but with the force and conviction of truth. We have been too quiet, but we need not scream the truth. We simply need to speak and not shut up. We are too often afraid to speak the truth and choose silence, like Peter when questioned about Jesus. Jesus did not scream at the world. He spoke truth quietly, and it shook the world. The difference was that he never faltered when challenged, like Peter. There is our lesson. We know that when the truth is not spoken clearly when we are challenged, when we falter in fear, the bad guys win. Like they did then. Like they do now. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Robert VanNatta Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:15 AM To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman It is not apparent that sinking to new lows on negative advertizing is a constructive solution. If you listen to the multitude of applicants for the position of DNC chair, that is not the theme of any of the leading candidates. Each one is presenting essentially the same message: If the D's are to be successful in presidential politics over time, they have to present a message, and have a plan for being more than a 20 state party. If the D's were to hatch a plan that would carry Texas---the R's wouldln't have a prayer of winning the presidency. Now lets see if any of your ideas would further that goal: 1) equating anyone who works in the oil industry with 'stink'? 2) Organizing a character attaack on the most prominant black woman ever to to work in the white house. 3) Bash the military which is very popular in the south. Now which of your three plans is going to send voters in the south and midwest swarming to vote D??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Larson" To: "ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:46 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] flip side/She's a woman > I think its time for Democrats to take off the gloves, stop being so > polite, and speak our minds. Why didn't they turn that tape of Condi > Rice's 9/11 commission testimony ("I believe the the PDB was titled > 'bin Ladden to attack US'") into a poltical ad? Or one of GW strutting > around that aircraft carrier with taps being played in the background > or coffins being unloaded onto a tarmac? > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 11:43:27 2005 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09JhQkk056849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:43:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq071.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A821B1BE0 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210AD364004; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E18259.5080807@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:13:29 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck References: <410-22005109163637781@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22005109163637781@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:43:27 -0000 Another shameless plug for John Schmidlkofer at Westside Auto Repair in Cornelius!!

bob "good to stay local and have several excellent choices in any case" browning

Julie Larson wrote:
Vickie, we take our cars to Jim's Automotive. They are the best! The prices
are very fair and the customer service is better than anything I have
experienced anywhere else. 


  
[Original Message]
From: Vickie Madeoneup <whatsupy2k@yahoo.com>
To: <ron@cobi.biz>; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet@rdrop.com>
Date: 1/8/2005 9:31:45 PM
Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck

Ron

I have always agreed that taking it to the dealer is
worth the extra money because they should know what
they are doing and so, even though more per hour, they
should take less time.
However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, also
the one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with how
it was handled and disappointed with their attitude
concerning it, although they were honest with me about
what DEQ's stance would be.

Vickie 
--- Ron D'Eau Claire <ron@cobi.biz> wrote:

    
Alan wrote:

Time for another car

------------------------------

Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems?
Throw it away and buy a new
one?  

If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On
light) by a reputable
shop, the repair should have been under warranty,
meaning they fix it when
it came back on. 

If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they
are the most expensive,
but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes
on after they fix it,
you know where to take it. 

This isn't "rocket science". However it may be
computer science. Cars have
so many microprocessors in them today that trying to
figure out what they
are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full
of PC's. 

Ron D'Eau Claire 





-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com
[mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of alan
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck


Time for another car

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet@rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




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GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet@rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

      

		
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From edavie@oregonmta.org Sun Jan 9 12:01:12 2005 Received: from mails09.megamailservers.com (mails09.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.209]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09K1BYJ060550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails09.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j09K13QJ000348 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:01:10 -0500 Message-ID: <005301c4f685$f43bf5b0$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <001001c4f678$dfa77aa0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> <41E17F6F.3090406@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:01:01 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:01:12 -0000 Yes. Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Browning=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Ron and other "Hams" - One question I have had for years and it should be simple to answer - = do=20 you use battery packs or portable generators to keep yourselves "up"=20 when the local power supplies are out? bob "enquiring minds are just kind of curious" browning Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >Roger Neyman wrote: > >I think most people take telephone connections for granted, not = thinking >that in a major earthquake all of them would be out of commission. = Yes, >mobile phones use the terrestrial wire phone system as well. > >Ham radio could, in circumstances like that, be one of the only = reliable >channels of communication. > >----------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 12:12:42 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09KCarR063050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04558364003; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E19027.3080102@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:12:23 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Becoming a Ham?? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:12:43 -0000 Ron - I understand it is no longer necessary to learn Morse code in order to get a ham radio license. What hints would you have for someone wanting to take up the hobby at 60 years of age?? bob "never too late for anything but a marathon" browning From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 12:13:31 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09KDTe0063262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:13:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323D529524 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:13:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:13:04 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <001d01c4f687$a52d6510$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <41E17F6F.3090406@jurislex.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:13:33 -0000 Bob Browning asked: One question I have had for years and it should be simple to answer - do you use battery packs or portable generators to keep yourselves "up" when the local power supplies are out? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -------------- All of the above, Bob. Some Hams take pride in the fact that their = stations are totally solar-powered with panels on the roof and battery backup = that allows operation overnight from a typical day's charge, even on cloudy = days. The little portable station I mentioned that I built fits in my coat = pocket and will run for a couple of days on eight AA cells. Because it uses highly-efficient Morse code, I can always communicate several hundred = miles with it using a wire tossed over a tree limb for an antenna and, when conditions are right, I can reach clear around the world. I can plug in almost any battery I find into a jack and keep it working if I run out = of AA cells . My main more-powerful station will operate for days off of a single car battery. As long as I have access to a car with gas, Running the car = for half an hour twice a day recharges the battery. Many amateurs and amateur radio clubs maintain motor-generator sets and complete portable stations that can be carried or hauled by an off-road vehicle and set up wherever needed. One of the big "national" activities of Hams since the 1930's has been = the annual Amateur "Field Day" in which individuals and clubs take to the = field with portable gear. It's a good-natured contest in which the idea is to = see how quickly one can set up a working station and then see how well the station really works by trying to contact as many other Hams as they = can, both nearby and far away, all in a 24-hour round-the-clock marathon. = It's also an excuse for groups and clubs to have a great good time together = on a week-end camp-out while practicing their field setup and operating = skills. At these events, new efficient station equipment and power systems are tested and used: solar, gas generator, hand-cranked, battery, etc. = Modern solid-state equipment is very easy on electrical power compared to the vacuum tube equipment of only a few years ago.=20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 =20 From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 12:13:52 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09KDm0F063334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:13:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C490B3640FC; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:13:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E1907D.3010804@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:13:49 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:13:52 -0000 I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday and came across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to yourself?? bob "still enquiring" browning From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 12:57:27 2005 Received: from web53908.mail.yahoo.com (web53908.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.218]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09KvQCN073104 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 70086 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 20:57:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QDFd7i/uyqZVPKI1JG1M2zN6iwEzf9863sf8yYFGuJy1n7sxX9dRVw4fut3JIHpZdh2uVmY8+iRkKPoPLlbWj5VEeyMeZoXCbykA5uKJmYfVVcn6IHz1JJOJ+aQeevetQk+en/5jj1OM8VuRYw4vwfNg1e/G+4+CKvcFKxM7tX0= ; Message-ID: <20050109205720.70084.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:57:20 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:57:20 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41E18259.5080807@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:57:27 -0000 One more: Mike Strassel in Banks. Strassel Automotive Repair. He's a genius! Bob Browning wrote:Another shameless plug for John Schmidlkofer at Westside Auto Repair in Cornelius!! bob "good to stay local and have several excellent choices in any case" browning Julie Larson wrote: Vickie, we take our cars to Jim's Automotive. They are the best! The pricesare very fair and the customer service is better than anything I haveexperienced anywhere else. [Original Message]From: Vickie Madeoneup To: ; Forest Grove local interests list Date: 1/8/2005 9:31:45 PMSubject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heckRonI have always agreed that taking it to the dealer isworth the extra money because they should know whatthey are doing and so, even though more per hour, theyshould take less time.However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, alsothe one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with howit was handled and disappointed with their attitudeconcerning it, although they were honest with me aboutwhat DEQ's stance would be.Vickie --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Alan wrote:Time for another car------------------------------Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems?Throw it away and buy a newone? If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine Onlight) by a reputableshop, the repair should have been under warranty,meaning they fix it whenit came back on. If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, theyare the most expensive,but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comeson after they fix it,you know where to take it. This isn't "rocket science". However it may becomputer science. Cars haveso many microprocessors in them today that trying tofigure out what theyare doing is about as bad as debugging a room fullof PC's. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message-----From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com[mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] OnBehalf Of alanSent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PMTo: Forest Grove local interests listSubject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heckTime for another car_______________________________________________GroveNet mailing listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet_______________________________________________GroveNet mailing listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250_______________________________________________GroveNet mailing listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________GroveNet mailing listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 13:01:19 2005 Received: from web53902.mail.yahoo.com (web53902.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09L1Icg074068 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 39014 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 21:01:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zAN5G4ZYMfD3Zzx9e42bgZe8klNQpTouzQH0hfLhKMh72Lhp7AdkQ6DefHWH0T2w0vizcwSbAutlmUpcQjyH9DQ4+Cep4K/3tRb17GW2ckWHcbYmcN0BWdOBRh3PJuLWRG0HYdCufJFpZkKyNX8Mh+7c9rUe9PsisMddIW3BeSc= ; Message-ID: <20050109210112.39012.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:01:12 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:01:12 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050109151907.8948.qmail@web14222.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:01:19 -0000 Seig Heil is not racist. You might be able still to tell us why you see this as "racist" and I might even agree with you, but, so far, you have not. -rlo wrote:Yes I do. And I do think YOU are wrong by using a racist remark. And your remark deserves the same amount of FLAME that Robert's got. I DO NOT disagree with any of your points about the nazi's. (I won't even capitaize that word!) ;) +rlo Eric Canon wrote: Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does it work! People sign on. Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but that's not a racist remark. Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment of my life without apology. Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you really understand what "racist" is in the first place. -rlo wrote: Seig Heil????? +rlo --- Eric Canon wrote: > Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I > inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I > appreciate that it is brought to my attention so > that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean > to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. > > I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be > black until this morning. His color has nothing to > do with it, other than the influence he holds over > black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. > Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such > things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is > right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has > nothing to do with race. It has everything to do > with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics > has nothing to do with race. > > At the same time, did you know that the money to pay > for this "news man's" support came from you and me? > That's right, the Bush Education office paid with > tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as > defined by the great tax cutter himself, who > consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. > > -rlo wrote: > If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! > Seig Heile???? +rlo > > Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: > > Don't you think that was a very racist remark you > made????? > > Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere > for that matter. > > Kurt Wilke > > On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: > > > were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of > his opponents to endorse > > him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks > insisting on being paid off > > before doing anything. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Browning > > To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM > > Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > > > And now they are using our tax dollars to pay > conservative commentators to > > pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . > > > > No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two > feet, so the Bushies pay a > > black commentator to pump the program whenever > possible: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5anlm > > > > And the following is a transcript of a CNN > interview with the commentator - > > Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double > talk suggests he must be a > > lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's > the owner!!" Big difference? > > ! ? ! > > > > The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in > the early stages of Nazi > > Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting > out the news and telling us > > how to think!! > > > > bob "really getting nervous!!" browning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMERICAN MORNING > > > > TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After > Being Paid > > > > Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET > > > > THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN > ITS FINAL FORM AND > > MAY BE UPDATED. > > > > > > BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. > > > > > > > > > > HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now > being paid by the > > White House to push an agenda on education. > Listeners apparently had no idea > > it was happening. > > > > Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. > His side of the story > > in a moment next. > > > > > > > > HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly > admitting accepting money to > > promote President Bush's education policy. > > > > According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams > was paid $240,000 to > > plug the "no child left behind" act in his > syndicated broadcast. Some are now > > suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and > possibly a congressional > > investigation. > > > > Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good > morning to you. > > > > ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, > Bill. How are you? > > > > HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return > for the money? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted > to Catch Em (ph). And > > what we were doing, they used our media. We own > our syndication, the rights > > side, where we syndicate our shows all of the > country. > > > > And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay > them. And especially, in > > particular markets that they wanted this "no child > left behind" to be on their > > airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what > they paid for. > > > > And in addition to that, which is what our > contract called for -- I made > > it clear because it's something that really > believed in as a commentator, > > something I wrote often about -- that I would use > my contacts with people that > > I knew in different media outlets from time to > time to get them to talk about > > "no child left behind"... > > > > HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions > here. > > > > Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose > to your viewers about > > the transaction? > > > > WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people > whose airwaves that we > > use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I > don't -- I can't recall > > whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. > > > > HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to > persuade people, right? > > And part of your job is to present arguments that > you believe in. And if you > > did present those arguments and were getting money > in return for it, why not > > tell people? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an > issue that I did not > > want to tell them. If issue did come up on the > air, I made a very clear that > > we had a professional relationship where "no child > left behind" was using our > > media as advertising. > > > > It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. > People look at the > > article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in > advertising. They used our > > media. > > > > We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary > Paige where we produced > > -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one > minute commercial. He had > > two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on > our commercial reel. > > > > HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. > > > > You made money off this, right? > > > > WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. > > > > HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed > by the company. How > > often would you... > > > > WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the > company, I own the company. > > There's a difference. > > > > > > HEMMER: OK, well, even better. > > > > WILLIAMS: Yes. > > > > HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and > promote what you talked > > about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that > because when I'm on CNN, > > we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf > Blitzer's show, when I'm on > > "CNN MORNING." > > > > I can't even recall if there is ever the time that > we talked about "no > > child left behind." But certainly if the issue > arises, it's very possible. I'm > > certainly going to talk about it because I'm an > advocate for it. > > > > HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in > October, on the 18th of > > October, you came on and talked about that very > thing. Do you recall that > > discussion? Do you recall that conversation? > > > > WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite > possible. I mean, I > > appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no > child left behind" is an issue > > that was consistently in the media for the last > two years. > > > > HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you > understand how someone, > > you know, colleagues in the business here would > consider this to be unethical > > possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes > from it if, indeed, you're > > promoting values and in ideas and programs in > exchange for cash? > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In > fact, I made it clear in > > my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA > Today" I can certainly understand > > how some people would feel that it was unethical. > > > > You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I > think you need to > > understand, many of the affiliates that we > broadcast on, we can not use paid > > advertisers. Unless it's a public service > announcement, many of our affiliates > > will not run it. > > > > In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our > commercials are PSAs. In the > > history of The Right Side Productions, the only > advertisers that we've ever > > had is the National Rifle Association, since the > beginning, "Forest (ph) > > Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson > Brothers Bank out of my home > > town of Marion, South Carolina. > > > > It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, > yes, I understand. But > > the reason why this was able to work because not > only was this a public > > service announcement, and so it passed the muster > for some of our affiliates. > > > > But I understand the conflict... > > > > HEMMER: Sure. > > > > WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be > concerned. > > > > > > HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm > sorry. I'm out of > > time. > > Would you do it again? > > > > WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem > with... > > > > HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell > folks? Would you tell > > your listeners and viewers? > > > > WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an > obligation to be more > > vociferous about the fact that they are > advertising on our programming. And I > > definitely should acknowledge that to the public, > yes. > > > > HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it > up. We wanted to get > > your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So > thanks, Armstrong, > > appreciate it. > > > > WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your > having me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ggsteele@gte.net Sun Jan 9 13:09:33 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09L9WsO075747 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109210931.GMVX28388.out014.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:09:31 -0600 Message-ID: <002501c4f68f$83e16700$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41E1814E.1040907@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:08:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:09:31 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:09:33 -0000 Interesting! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Browning=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work --------------- snip --------------- A final note - I saw in one of the article that Sweden (home to the=20 largest cell phone manufacturer Nokia) had a system so some 10,000=20 Swedish cell phone users known to be in Southeast Asia by their phone=20 usage go a message asking them to call a particular number to assure=20 that they were okay. Never heard any thing more on that, but wondered = if=20 such a system is available here in the use for emergency use. bob "still wondering" browning From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 13:25:52 2005 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09LPq6a079184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E4E30815 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF6F6DC00D; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:23:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E1849E.2010406@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:23:10 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:25:53 -0000 Hey, Jerry, welcome back on-line. And thanks again for being the guy with the pen who had the power to start to put our Forest Grove government problems straight last year!!

bob "got to learn to keep my mouth shut" browning

Jerry Boone wrote:
You can't cut the damn wire because DEQ will first turn the engine off
and then turn the key on to confirm the light functions...if the light
doesn't work, it also is an immediate failure.

Ask to have the car tested on the dynamometer to confirm there are no
real issues with emissions. If the dyno gives it a clean bill of health,
contact the man who heads the DEQ vehicle testing program and ask him
what your next step should be. Be prepared to show him receipts for the
work done and the dealer's report on the sensor malfunction.

You might also go to a repair shop not associated with a dealership.
Many of the dealers are staffed with  parts changers (it is called
"diagnosis by VISA) who keep swapping things 'til they get them right.
There are few real mechanics around. The ECM (engine management
computer) should give the technician a prompt on what system needs work,
but it still takes someone with more than simple proficiency on a
computer keyboard to solve the problem.

jerry boone
lurker/car junkie 



  

  
OleHossTreeFarm@webtv.net 01/08/05 20:32 PM >>>
        
Vickie.. simple ... cut the damn wire, and go to a different DEQ

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From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 9 13:41:28 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09LfSvC082183 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:41:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109214127.LSI28362.out005.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:41:27 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:40:33 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20863-41E07D72-248@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net> <200501082230.39670.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> <034401c4f669$1145c2c0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> In-Reply-To: <034401c4f669$1145c2c0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501091340.34113.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:41:27 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:41:29 -0000 It's "not apparent" because, despite the requests of the FSLDIC, many of the shady loans that Neil worked out were never investigated by the Reagan DOJ. And isn't it typical of the Republican Noise Machine to divert attention from the shady dealings of one of their own to "economic models" and "problems within the industry." But we can spend billions to investigate every conceivable angle of the Whitewater affair. American politics are coming to resemble the Italian model more than anything else: single party rule by the party that controls 90% of the media. Berlusconi in Italy may still be ahead of the R's in this country, but the R's are catching up fast. But we can still muster the gall to complain about the "liberal media." Can we give that one a rest now after the triumph of right-wing hate radio? On Sunday 09 January 2005 08:34, Robert VanNatta wrote: > It is not immediately apparent that the Bush family 'fleeced billions of > dollars' out of savings and loans. > The entire savings and loan industry will built on an economic model that > assumed you could forever collect savings desposits at 3.5% which could be > withdrawn at any time and loan them out at 6% for 30 years and make money. > > When short term interest rates went through the roof, this economic model > failed, and the end of the > savings and loans was inevitable regardless of what any manager did. Some > savings and loans died quietly while others to varying degrees got creative > in attempting to survive. Often times the creativity > meant pushing the legal edge. As is always the issue with pushing the > edge, if you ultimately fail > you are a crook, if you are successful you are brilliant and bold. Even > worse the edge always crumbles so in 20-20 hindsight a much stricter > expectation is applied than anyone dreamed of at the time. > > The longer the S & L's were able to avoid going broke the more then bled > and the greater the loss > that the Fed's ultimately had---at least on paper. It has always > intrigued me as to whether the losses would have been significantly > different if at the first sign of troubled waters, the S & L managers and > driven down to the FSLIC and turned in their keys. > > to be sure there were a small number of absolute crooks and theives in the > business who saw and used > the collapse as an opportunity to scam.----but my take is that many who > ended up making license plates were actually genuinely trying to 'save' > their institutions (and ended up costing the taxpayers a lot of money for > their efforts). > > As for the bush family, my recollection of the 'involvement' was that one > of the Bush sons (and I don't recall which one) was a director for a while > of an S & L in Colorado which ultimately failed. I presume he got paid for > the position (most directors did), but I certainly haven't seen evidence > that he has 'billions' because of it. It is not even apparent that the > bush family has 'billions' because of it. > > Recall in the last election, our president was not the 'rich guy' who was > running for president. His wealth was considerably less than that of > Kerry---even disregarding the Heinz fortune. > > Also if you are going to sweep 'political relatives' into the picture and > blame anyone in office for > anything in the greater family, don't forget that Hill has a brother. (as > did Richard Nixon and Jimmy carter) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Meredith Bliss" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "she's female" > > > Funny you should bring that up ... where's your moral outrage about the > > billions of dollars we got fleeced in the S&L scandals by the Bush > > family. Most of that got hushed up pretty well, especially by comparison > > to the ad nauseum investigations of the Whitewater shenanigans. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 13:42:59 2005 Received: from web11405.mail.yahoo.com (web11405.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.235]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09Lgxkp082457 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:42:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 91331 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 21:42:59 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=5aaxAsYGcTGOwVhgywUmPfOnzjEuywTzy6DGYIUHztxuA0J1HKF7CvavqIKjjwyvJtPOJUaVmTPz9zdMcrpNNMnci68WEmEnkoVQQr0n/IacrsFks7cObiyzghGvEpLrEjIjNs0VfYSNV5DVvLIcw1oiqlWAMRt7wKo1kDaDV4U= ; Message-ID: <20050109214259.91329.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.103] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:42:59 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:42:59 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Becoming a Ham?? To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41E19027.3080102@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:43:00 -0000 Bob just so you don't become discouraged, I have a co-worker who is 58 and just stasrted marathon running. Vickie --- Bob Browning wrote: > Ron - I understand it is no longer necessary to > learn Morse code in > order to get a ham radio license. What hints would > you have for someone > wanting to take up the hobby at 60 years of age?? > > bob "never too late for anything but a marathon" > browning > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 9 13:44:10 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09Li9RJ082682 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:44:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109214408.YSNI8290.out004.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:44:08 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:43:15 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <41E1907D.3010804@jurislex.com> In-Reply-To: <41E1907D.3010804@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501091343.15913.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:44:08 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:44:10 -0000 I've wondered about that, too, but never got around to asking ... On Sunday 09 January 2005 12:13, Bob Browning wrote: > I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday and came > across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to yourself?? > > bob "still enquiring" browning > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 13:56:35 2005 Received: from web11411.mail.yahoo.com (web11411.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.8]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09LuZhX085288 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 28935 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 21:56:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=38/ikCp0h77XfnzSBkBJ+fcZh31nCp2zmkiqYCCxp0HeUM3bwc+rppJbO9jrkSVd3tt2IcFEr9cie5MQkm0XIUlAJk4VkGg0ls3WzKo/cYikIDTIoY+ZbnGyxSN8BZwIR1XOAoz3XHDccI9y58holYwyk2cPsjrrsoYDoZrWZFQ= ; Message-ID: <20050109215634.28933.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.178.103] by web11411.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:56:34 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050109205720.70084.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:56:36 -0000 Thanks every one, I really do appreciate it!! Vickie --- Eric Canon wrote: > One more: Mike Strassel in Banks. Strassel > Automotive Repair. He's a genius! > > Bob Browning wrote:Another > shameless plug for John Schmidlkofer at Westside > Auto Repair in Cornelius!! > > bob "good to stay local and have several excellent > choices in any case" browning > > Julie Larson wrote: > > Vickie, we take our cars to Jim's Automotive. They > are the best! The pricesare very fair and the > customer service is better than anything I > haveexperienced anywhere else. > > [Original Message]From: Vickie Madeoneup > To: ; Forest > Grove local interests list Date: > 1/8/2005 9:31:45 PMSubject: RE: [Grovenet] again... > what the heckRonI have always agreed that taking it > to the dealer isworth the extra money because they > should know whatthey are doing and so, even though > more per hour, theyshould take less time.However, > this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, alsothe one I > bought it from. I was not satisfied with howit was > handled and disappointed with their > attitudeconcerning it, although they were honest > with me aboutwhat DEQ's stance would be.Vickie --- > Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > > Alan wrote:Time for another > car------------------------------Gee, Alan, the > American answer to all problems?Throw it away and > buy a newone? If the car was "repaired" (correct > Check Engine Onlight) by a reputableshop, the repair > should have been under warranty,meaning they fix it > whenit came back on. If not, it's time to take it to > Nissan (I know, theyare the most expensive,but you > get it FIXED for that price) and if it comeson after > they fix it,you know where to take it. This isn't > "rocket science". However it may becomputer science. > Cars haveso many microprocessors in them today that > trying tofigure out what theyare doing is about as > bad as debugging a room fullof PC's. Ron D'Eau > Claire -----Original Message-----From: > grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com[mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] > OnBehalf Of alanSent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 > 8:54 PMTo: Forest Grove local interests listSubject: > Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heckTime for > another > > car_______________________________________________GroveNet > mailing > listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet_______________________________________________GroveNet > mailing > listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced > search.http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250_______________________________________________GroveNet > mailing > listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________GroveNet > mailing > listGroveNet@rdrop.comhttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From robert@vannattabros.com Sun Jan 9 14:00:39 2005 Received: from web51602.mail.yahoo.com (web51602.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.207]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j09M0d9Y086065 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: (qmail 86952 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2005 21:53:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20050109215352.86950.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.78.69.22] by web51602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:53:52 PST X-RocketYMMF: rvannatta Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: Robert VanNatta Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Amateurs at Work To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <001d01c4f687$a52d6510$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert@vannattabros.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:00:39 -0000 Agreed---one of the useful things about hams are that they are a diverse and knowledgeable lot. in 1996 when Vernonia was isolated from the outside world---all the roads washed out, phone service dead, and the main part of town under several feet of water, ham communication never stopped. --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Bob Browning asked: > > One question I have had for years and it should be > simple to answer - do > you use battery packs or portable generators to keep > yourselves "up" > when the local power supplies are out? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > > All of the above, Bob. Some Hams take pride in the > fact that their stations > are totally solar-powered with panels on the roof > and battery backup that > allows operation overnight from a typical day's > charge, even on cloudy days. > > The little portable station I mentioned that I built > fits in my coat pocket > and will run for a couple of days on eight AA cells. > Because it uses > highly-efficient Morse code, I can always > communicate several hundred miles > with it using a wire tossed over a tree limb for an > antenna and, when > conditions are right, I can reach clear around the > world. I can plug in > almost any battery I find into a jack and keep it > working if I run out of AA > cells . > > My main more-powerful station will operate for days > off of a single car > battery. As long as I have access to a car with gas, > Running the car for > half an hour twice a day recharges the battery. > > Many amateurs and amateur radio clubs maintain > motor-generator sets and > complete portable stations that can be carried or > hauled by an off-road > vehicle and set up wherever needed. > > One of the big "national" activities of Hams since > the 1930's has been the > annual Amateur "Field Day" in which individuals and > clubs take to the field > with portable gear. It's a good-natured contest in > which the idea is to see > how quickly one can set up a working station and > then see how well the > station really works by trying to contact as many > other Hams as they can, > both nearby and far away, all in a 24-hour > round-the-clock marathon. It's > also an excuse for groups and clubs to have a great > good time together on a > week-end camp-out while practicing their field setup > and operating skills. > At these events, new efficient station equipment and > power systems are > tested and used: solar, gas generator, hand-cranked, > battery, etc. Modern > solid-state equipment is very easy on electrical > power compared to the > vacuum tube equipment of only a few years ago. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 14:23:35 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09MNYCQ090388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:23:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD6729523 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:23:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Becoming a Ham?? Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:23:08 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <003501c4f699$d1fbdd30$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <41E19027.3080102@jurislex.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:23:35 -0000 Bob Browning wrote: Ron - I understand it is no longer necessary to learn Morse code in order to get a ham radio license. What hints would you have for someone wanting to take up the hobby at 60 years of age?? ----------------------------------------------------- That's correct Bob. Knowledge of Morse code is no longer required to obtain an Amateur = license. A great many "Hams" are folks who enter the hobby in retirement. The use = of a highly-efficient voice communications called "single-sideband" is commonplace on the shortwave bands including the Amateur bands. Also = Hams employ a whole range of interesting digital modes in which text messages = are sent over the air much like we communicate here via the internet. Licensing is basically pretty simple because we have a series of levels = of licenses that encourage newcomers to the hobby. Since we are licensed by = the Federal Government and are empowered to carry on international communications with countries all over the world, much of the basic knowledge has to do with how to operate our stations in compliance with = US laws and international treaties. Beyond that, Amateur Operators are allowed to assemble and certify that their stations meet all federal rules and regulations, so there are = basic technical questions that do not involve a lot of detailed knowledge of electronics. At the basic level, we find some pretty young children with licenses these days. But then, some kids could debug software long = before I learned to click on START to turn my computer OFF!=20 Higher level licenses get more into electronics theory, the use of satellites for communications (there are several Amateur built and = operated satellites in orbit), and other more technical areas. Many of us, such = as myself, have found the greatest pleasure out of building our own station equipment, even designing much of it. Generally, there's a level of license to satisfy just about any interest = in radio communications. While I love to tinker in the shop, I also love meeting people on the air and have made many very good friends over the years, some of which I've never met face-to-face. And the occasional interesting surprise turns up on the other end of a contact such as = Hussein, JY1 (King Hussein of Jordan) or Senator Barry Goldwater (K7UGA). While = both of them are what we respectfully call "SK's" (silent keys) today, people whose life's work isolates them from casual contact with the public = often find an outlet through their Ham radio set. For detailed information about getting an Amateur license, check this = web site: http://tinyurl.com/49erj It is the site of the ARRL, formerly known as the American Radio Relay League, formed in 1915 and which has been the leading "voice" of Amateur Radio representing Amateurs to our government and in writing = international treaties for many decades.=20 =20 Of course, if you or anyone would like more information about Amateur = Radio, drop me a an e-mail or call me at 503-329-8948. =20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 =20 =20 From embien@starband.net Sun Jan 9 14:24:05 2005 Received: from hestia.email.starband.net (hestia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09MO4Ig090484 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:24:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from embien@starband.net) Received: from athlon (vsat-148-63-87-101.c002.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.87.101]) (authenticated bits=0) by hestia.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09LVEaq027622 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:31:25 -0500 Message-ID: <00c001c4f692$c2ca1c20$0301a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Mike Northam" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <410-22005109163637781@earthlink.net> <41E18259.5080807@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:32:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:24:05 -0000 We can second the recommendation for John. He used to work at = Strassel's in Banks before starting his own business in Cornelius. Very = good with all makes and models of cars/trucks. He's worked on our = vehicles for over 20 years and is excellent. =20 Saralie and Mike Northam ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Browning=20 To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net ; Forest Grove local interests = list=20 Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Another shameless plug for John Schmidlkofer at Westside Auto Repair = in Cornelius!! bob "good to stay local and have several excellent choices in any = case" browning Julie Larson wrote: Vickie, we take our cars to Jim's Automotive. They are the best! The = prices are very fair and the customer service is better than anything I have experienced anywhere else.=20 [Original Message] From: Vickie Madeoneup To: ; Forest Grove local interests list = Date: 1/8/2005 9:31:45 PM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Ron I have always agreed that taking it to the dealer is worth the extra money because they should know what they are doing and so, even though more per hour, they should take less time. However, this was a Nissan dealer I took it to, also the one I bought it from. I was not satisfied with how it was handled and disappointed with their attitude concerning it, although they were honest with me about what DEQ's stance would be. Vickie=20 --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Alan wrote: Time for another car ------------------------------ Gee, Alan, the American answer to all problems? Throw it away and buy a new one? =20 If the car was "repaired" (correct Check Engine On light) by a reputable shop, the repair should have been under warranty, meaning they fix it when it came back on.=20 If not, it's time to take it to Nissan (I know, they are the most expensive, but you get it FIXED for that price) and if it comes on after they fix it, you know where to take it.=20 This isn't "rocket science". However it may be computer science. Cars have so many microprocessors in them today that trying to figure out what they are doing is about as bad as debugging a room full of PC's.=20 Ron D'Eau Claire=20 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of alan Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:54 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Time for another car _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet =20 =09 __________________________________=20 Do you Yahoo!?=20 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet =20 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Sun Jan 9 14:30:10 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09MU90v091649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46283B01A for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:30:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:29:45 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <003a01c4f69a$bdfe90b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050109215634.28933.qmail@web11411.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:30:10 -0000 Yeah, but "inquiring minds" want to know if they can make Vickie's "check engine" light go out. We'll be waiting for an update! Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Vickie Madeoneup Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:57 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Thanks every one, I really do appreciate it!! Vickie From Lenahh@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 15:14:50 2005 Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j09NEnBc002409 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:14:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Lenahh@verizon.net) Received: from bfu67 ([4.14.149.241]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050109231448.GBDB12052.out002.verizon.net@bfu67> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:14:48 -0600 Message-ID: <005a01c4f6a1$1b5a8060$f1950e04@dslverizon.net> From: "Lena H Hendricks" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41E1907D.3010804@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:15:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.14.149.241] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:14:44 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:14:50 -0000 I saw that too and wondered. Lena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: "Grovenet" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:13 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks > I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday and came > across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to yourself?? > > bob "still enquiring" browning > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From apache@wolf01.wolffm.com Sun Jan 9 17:57:10 2005 Received: from wolf01.wolffm.com (202.69-93-149.reverse.theplanet.com [69.93.149.202] (may be forged)) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A1v9ac034657 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from apache@wolf01.wolffm.com) Received: from wolf01.wolffm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by wolf01.wolffm.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0A2ljmA007854 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:47:45 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by wolf01.wolffm.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id j0A2lftF007842; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:47:41 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:47:41 -0600 Message-Id: <200501100247.j0A2lftF007842@wolf01.wolffm.com> To: grovenet@rdrop.com From: bob browning X-Mailer: Tell-A-Friend 2.0 (drew-phillips.com) Content-Type: text/plain X-WolfDallas-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the WOLF for more information X-WolfDallas-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-WolfDallas-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=0.963, required 5.1, EXCUSE_15 0.71, EXCUSE_16 0.17, THIS_AINT_SPAM 0.08) X-MailScanner-From: apache@wolf01.wolffm.com Subject: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bob browning (rab@jurislex.com) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:57:11 -0000 Hello, Your friend thought you would like to visit WOLF-FM! Come by and check it out at HTTP://WWW.WOLFFM.COM Listen to the hottest hits from the 70's, 80's, and today online! We hope you stop by! I had been looking for a free, internet based 60s-80s radio and I think I finally found it here. And far less ads than on the over-the-air radio!! bob "a little background music" browning _________________________________________ Note: This is not spam. A friend sent you this message from www.wolffm.com/tellafriend.php If you feel that you received this in error, contact support@wolffm.com with the sender's IP 69.30.98.242, otherwise delete and disregard this email. By receiving this email, you have NOT been added to any list and your email address has NOT been recorded in any way. From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 17:58:07 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A1w6td034868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E194364003; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:58:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E1E135.4090406@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:58:13 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Some background bio!! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:58:07 -0000 Here's an interesting background bio on the man running the internet radio station which I have suggested you may like. Incidentally, he's blind!!

http://tinyurl.com/6xdh5

bob "still listening" browning
From edavie@oregonmta.org Sun Jan 9 20:13:21 2005 Received: from mails12.megamailservers.com (mails12.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A4DKhQ062472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (dsl-208-161-106-185.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails12.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j0A4D9C6024655 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:13:17 -0500 Message-ID: <00d401c4f6ca$b336b470$6601a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <200501100247.j0A2lftF007842@wolf01.wolffm.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bob browning (rab@jurislex.com) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:13:07 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:13:22 -0000 Sounds like good quality but too rocky for me! Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bob browning=20 To: grovenet@rdrop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:47 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bob browning = (rab@jurislex.com) Hello, Your friend thought you would like to visit WOLF-FM! Come by and check it out at HTTP://WWW.WOLFFM.COM Listen to the hottest hits from the 70's, 80's, and today online! We hope you stop by! I had been looking for a free, internet based 60s-80s radio and I = think I finally found it here. And far less ads than on the over-the-air = radio!! bob "a little background music" browning _________________________________________ Note: This is not spam. A friend sent you this message from = www.wolffm.com/tellafriend.php If you feel that you received this in = error, contact support@wolffm.com with the sender's IP 69.30.98.242, = otherwise delete and disregard this email. By receiving this email, you = have NOT been added to any list and your email address has NOT been = recorded in any way. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Sun Jan 9 20:19:22 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A4JM3m063764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171CE364003; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:19:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E2024C.1000507@jurislex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:19:24 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bob browning (rab@jurislex.com) References: <200501100247.j0A2lftF007842@wolf01.wolffm.com> <00d401c4f6ca$b336b470$6601a8c0@700x> In-Reply-To: <00d401c4f6ca$b336b470$6601a8c0@700x> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:19:22 -0000 Interesting how we tend to stay with what we grew up with as a teenager!! bob "just rocking along - except for Elvis, whom I can not stand and never could!!" browning Ed Davie wrote: >Sounds like good quality but too rocky for me! >Ed Davie > > > > > From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 20:46:12 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A4kBou068828 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:46:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110044607.GRVM24714.out010.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:46:07 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:46:06 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <41E1907D.3010804@jurislex.com> Message-Id: <8A1B3029-62C2-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:46:07 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:46:12 -0000 Bob, No. There are at least three clans of Morelli's in the metro area. One had a Michael Morelli who ran a filling station in South East Portland and was the secretary of the Portland Gasoline Dealers Association during a ballot battle over self service gasoline stations. One is the clan headed by my father. We are mostly in the Washington County area. The road you saw, I believe, is named after the patriarch of the third clan. My parents met him, I never did, and they had a wonderful time with him. I was told that he was a farmer of the old school, and walked his fields bare foot to get a feeling for the soil. I wish I had met him before he died. I understand that there are additional Morelli's in the metro area who are not relatives, but I have no real knowledge about them. It is a common name in Italy, almost like "Johnson". David On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday and > came across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to yourself?? > > bob "still enquiring" browning > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 22:03:26 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A63Q7k082991 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110060321.VMAD1106.out003.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:03:21 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:03:20 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050109210112.39012.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: <54246B4A-62CD-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:03:20 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:03:27 -0000 Eric's observation that fascism needs to corrupt the media would appear to parallel a quotation that appeared on a web site, and referenced the importance of propaganda to the rise of the nazi organization. "Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for victory of this idea." "The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect." Mein Kampf, A. Hitler Seig: Victory Heil: Hail "Seig Heil" would be "Hail Victory" Is "Seig Heil" a racist remark? IMHO When made with serious intent, it is the hallmark of the National Socialist Party (NAZI) of 1930-40's Germany or their modern incarnations. The Nazi Party was certainly racist, in that it advocated the supremacy of white, Arian people over all others, including the right of ethnic cleansing. A "Seig Heil" used as a rallying cry for a nazi movement would appear to be a white supremacy statement, which would likely be racial in overtones. When made as a social comment, it is a criticism of a person or their actions with an allusion to the excesses of Nazi Germany. It may also be a criticism of someone's political standards by comparing them to the followers of the German Nazi party. If it is insulting people by comparing them to Germans in the 1930-40's, it could be a racist remark. If, on the other hand, it is criticizing the ACTIONS of people by comparing their behavior to the actions of fascists in the 1930-40's, then it is a social comment. Hopefully it is possible to determine from the context if the author is attacking a person for their nationality, or attacking a social behavior that transcends national boundaries. BTW, SeigHeil.org is a web site for the American Naturalist Social Fascist Party, a white supremacy group. BTW, the Arians were religious followers of Arian, an early Christian leader who was considered a heretic by the Orthodox Christians of the first centuries. Many of the German tribes were Arian Christians. Would this qualify as a racial group? Don't know. BTW, While Nazi politicians are referred to as "fascists", the word preceded their movement. It appears to have originated with the Fascist Movement in Italy that placed Mussolini in power. So would calling someone a "fascist" also be a racist statement? And would it be directed against the Italians? Maybe this is not the place for humor, but here is a curious photo. http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/09/18/funny-sieg-heil-bush-photo/ David On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 01:01 PM, Eric Canon wrote: > Seig Heil is not racist. You might be able still to tell us why you > see this as "racist" and I might even agree with you, but, so far, you > have not. > > -rlo wrote:Yes I do. And I do think YOU are wrong by > using a racist remark. And your remark deserves the same amount of > FLAME that Robert's got. > > I DO NOT disagree with any of your points about the nazi's. (I won't > even capitaize that word!) ;) +rlo > > Eric Canon wrote: > Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! > > First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to > survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. > Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means > for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. > > Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. > There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is > following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's > did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction > with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They > employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the > Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and > non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. > > Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. > It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does > it work! People sign on. > > Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes > to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who > write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not > one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. > > That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to > do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but > that's not a racist remark. > > Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not > running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, > and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment > of my life without apology. > > Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with > enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you > really understand what "racist" is in the first place. > > -rlo wrote: > Seig Heil????? +rlo > > --- Eric Canon wrote: > >> Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I >> inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I >> appreciate that it is brought to my attention so >> that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean >> to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. >> >> I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be >> black until this morning. His color has nothing to >> do with it, other than the influence he holds over >> black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. >> Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such >> things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is >> right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has >> nothing to do with race. It has everything to do >> with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics >> has nothing to do with race. >> >> At the same time, did you know that the money to pay >> for this "news man's" support came from you and me? >> That's right, the Bush Education office paid with >> tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as >> defined by the great tax cutter himself, who >> consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. >> >> -rlo wrote: >> If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! >> Seig Heile???? +rlo >> >> Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: >> >> Don't you think that was a very racist remark you >> made????? >> >> Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere >> for that matter. >> >> Kurt Wilke >> >> On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: >> >>> were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of >> his opponents to endorse >>> him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks >> insisting on being paid off >>> before doing anything. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bob Browning >>> To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria >>> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM >>> Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! >>> >>> >>> And now they are using our tax dollars to pay >> conservative commentators to >>> pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . >>> >>> No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two >> feet, so the Bushies pay a >>> black commentator to pump the program whenever >> possible: >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/5anlm >>> >>> And the following is a transcript of a CNN >> interview with the commentator - >>> Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double >> talk suggests he must be a >>> lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's >> the owner!!" Big difference? >>> ! ? ! >>> >>> The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in >> the early stages of Nazi >>> Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting >> out the news and telling us >>> how to think!! >>> >>> bob "really getting nervous!!" browning >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> AMERICAN MORNING >>> >>> TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After >> Being Paid >>> >>> Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET >>> >>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN >> ITS FINAL FORM AND >>> MAY BE UPDATED. >>> >>> >>> BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now >> being paid by the >>> White House to push an agenda on education. >> Listeners apparently had no idea >>> it was happening. >>> >>> Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. >> His side of the story >>> in a moment next. >>> >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly >> admitting accepting money to >>> promote President Bush's education policy. >>> >>> According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams >> was paid $240,000 to >>> plug the "no child left behind" act in his >> syndicated broadcast. Some are now >>> suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and >> possibly a congressional >>> investigation. >>> >>> Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good >> morning to you. >>> >>> ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, >> Bill. How are you? >>> >>> HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return >> for the money? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted >> to Catch Em (ph). And >>> what we were doing, they used our media. We own >> our syndication, the rights >>> side, where we syndicate our shows all of the >> country. >>> >>> And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay >> them. And especially, in >>> particular markets that they wanted this "no child >> left behind" to be on their >>> airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what >> they paid for. >>> >>> And in addition to that, which is what our >> contract called for -- I made >>> it clear because it's something that really >> believed in as a commentator, >>> something I wrote often about -- that I would use >> my contacts with people that >>> I knew in different media outlets from time to >> time to get them to talk about >>> "no child left behind"... >>> >>> HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions >> here. >>> >>> Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose >> to your viewers about >>> the transaction? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people >> whose airwaves that we >>> use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I >> don't -- I can't recall >>> whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. >>> >>> HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to >> persuade people, right? >>> And part of your job is to present arguments that >> you believe in. And if you >>> did present those arguments and were getting money >> in return for it, why not >>> tell people? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an >> issue that I did not >>> want to tell them. If issue did come up on the >> air, I made a very clear that >>> we had a professional relationship where "no child >> left behind" was using our >>> media as advertising. >>> >>> It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. >> People look at the >>> article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in >> advertising. They used our >>> media. >>> >>> We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary >> Paige where we produced >>> -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one >> minute commercial. He had >>> two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on >> our commercial reel. >>> >>> HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. >>> >>> You made money off this, right? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed >> by the company. How >>> often would you... >>> >>> WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the >> company, I own the company. >>> There's a difference. >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: OK, well, even better. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and >> promote what you talked >>> about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that >> because when I'm on CNN, >>> we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf >> Blitzer's show, when I'm on >>> "CNN MORNING." >>> >>> I can't even recall if there is ever the time that >> we talked about "no >>> child left behind." But certainly if the issue >> arises, it's very possible. I'm >>> certainly going to talk about it because I'm an >> advocate for it. >>> >>> HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in >> October, on the 18th of >>> October, you came on and talked about that very >> thing. Do you recall that >>> discussion? Do you recall that conversation? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite >> possible. I mean, I >>> appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no >> child left behind" is an issue >>> that was consistently in the media for the last >> two years. >>> >>> HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you >> understand how someone, >>> you know, colleagues in the business here would >> consider this to be unethical >>> possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes >> from it if, indeed, you're >>> promoting values and in ideas and programs in >> exchange for cash? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In >> fact, I made it clear in >>> my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA >> Today" I can certainly understand >>> how some people would feel that it was unethical. >>> >>> You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I >> think you need to >>> understand, many of the affiliates that we >> broadcast on, we can not use paid >>> advertisers. Unless it's a public service >> announcement, many of our affiliates >>> will not run it. >>> >>> In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our >> commercials are PSAs. In the >>> history of The Right Side Productions, the only >> advertisers that we've ever >>> had is the National Rifle Association, since the >> beginning, "Forest (ph) >>> Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson >> Brothers Bank out of my home >>> town of Marion, South Carolina. >>> >>> It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, >> yes, I understand. But >>> the reason why this was able to work because not >> only was this a public >>> service announcement, and so it passed the muster >> for some of our affiliates. >>> >>> But I understand the conflict... >>> >>> HEMMER: Sure. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be >> concerned. >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm >> sorry. I'm out of >>> time. >>> Would you do it again? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem >> with... >>> >>> HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell >> folks? Would you tell >>> your listeners and viewers? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an >> obligation to be more >>> vociferous about the fact that they are >> advertising on our programming. And I >>> definitely should acknowledge that to the public, >> yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it >> up. We wanted to get >>> your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So >> thanks, Armstrong, >>> appreciate it. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your >> having me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet@rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet@rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 22:11:41 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0A6Be74084573 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 78572 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2005 06:11:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=BgNo9alT0gzoULuSokVfve3z6jGQnE5odFol/DtJkxKBJnaVev1VOpPfWWNCrVrtwcvbeM6/oD3PyMmZToCP0ABCfy+xMKNPROAuJz+Hl6nXg1meSqTFqfp04Ps3uO0dK8tS612h+cFuKN3Nz2AcrLV5wRRunASTPcvqmeBo5dQ= ; Message-ID: <20050110061135.78570.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:11:35 PST Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:11:35 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <54246B4A-62CD-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:11:42 -0000 Wow! Thanks David for the wonderful incites and background. As for the pic of Bush, this guy is sure good for the flag industry. Look at all those flags! I won't tell you what it reminds me of. I've already made too many "racist" statements for one weekend. David Morelli wrote: Eric's observation that fascism needs to corrupt the media would appear to parallel a quotation that appeared on a web site, and referenced the importance of propaganda to the rise of the nazi organization. "Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for victory of this idea." "The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect." Mein Kampf, A. Hitler Seig: Victory Heil: Hail "Seig Heil" would be "Hail Victory" Is "Seig Heil" a racist remark? IMHO When made with serious intent, it is the hallmark of the National Socialist Party (NAZI) of 1930-40's Germany or their modern incarnations. The Nazi Party was certainly racist, in that it advocated the supremacy of white, Arian people over all others, including the right of ethnic cleansing. A "Seig Heil" used as a rallying cry for a nazi movement would appear to be a white supremacy statement, which would likely be racial in overtones. When made as a social comment, it is a criticism of a person or their actions with an allusion to the excesses of Nazi Germany. It may also be a criticism of someone's political standards by comparing them to the followers of the German Nazi party. If it is insulting people by comparing them to Germans in the 1930-40's, it could be a racist remark. If, on the other hand, it is criticizing the ACTIONS of people by comparing their behavior to the actions of fascists in the 1930-40's, then it is a social comment. Hopefully it is possible to determine from the context if the author is attacking a person for their nationality, or attacking a social behavior that transcends national boundaries. BTW, SeigHeil.org is a web site for the American Naturalist Social Fascist Party, a white supremacy group. BTW, the Arians were religious followers of Arian, an early Christian leader who was considered a heretic by the Orthodox Christians of the first centuries. Many of the German tribes were Arian Christians. Would this qualify as a racial group? Don't know. BTW, While Nazi politicians are referred to as "fascists", the word preceded their movement. It appears to have originated with the Fascist Movement in Italy that placed Mussolini in power. So would calling someone a "fascist" also be a racist statement? And would it be directed against the Italians? Maybe this is not the place for humor, but here is a curious photo. http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/09/18/funny-sieg-heil-bush-photo/ David On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 01:01 PM, Eric Canon wrote: > Seig Heil is not racist. You might be able still to tell us why you > see this as "racist" and I might even agree with you, but, so far, you > have not. > > -rlo wrote:Yes I do. And I do think YOU are wrong by > using a racist remark. And your remark deserves the same amount of > FLAME that Robert's got. > > I DO NOT disagree with any of your points about the nazi's. (I won't > even capitaize that word!) ;) +rlo > > Eric Canon wrote: > Gee, what a wealth of insight you offer here! > > First I'll say what I meant: fascism needs to corrupt the media to > survive. Bob alluded to the same thing in his post, and I echoed it. > Fascist's would buy such support. Why not? The end justifies the means > for them. They have no use for ethics or integrity. > > Sieg Heil is the salute of the German Nazi regime, a fascist regime. > There are many, and I am one, who feel the Bush administration is > following policies that benefit the rich and corporations. The Nazi's > did the same thing. It's the every core of fascism. To gain traction > with supporters, they recruit by dividing groups of people. They > employ hate, by frightening people. That is, the Nazi's targeted the > Jews. They were the problem. Eliminate the Jews and blacks and > non-Aryn's and homosexuals and the problem goes away. > > Bush targets same sex people, illegal foreigners, and now Muslims. > It's subtle, and it's still really early in the process, but boy, does > it work! People sign on. > > Having said that, you can accuse me of "discrimination" when it comes > to Rumsfeld, Wolfiweitz, Ashcroft and now Gonzales, and the others who > write the tunes to which this government dances. I don't like 'em. Not > one bit. To me, they are crooks and evil men. They have no integrity. > > That said, my statement is not "racism". My statement has nothing to > do with race. You might think I'm wrong, or that I'm not informed, but > that's not a racist remark. > > Seig Heil originates from Germany and the German language, but I'm not > running down the Germans with it. I may be running down the Nazi's, > and I won't apologize for that. I'll run down the Nazi's every moment > of my life without apology. > > Now, -rlo, if I missed your meaning, for heaven sakes provide me with > enough detail to be able to respond. What I wonder is whether you > really understand what "racist" is in the first place. > > -rlo wrote: > Seig Heil????? +rlo > > --- Eric Canon wrote: > >> Please explain your observation +rlo. Sometimes I >> inadvertently utter raciest remarks. When I do, I >> appreciate that it is brought to my attention so >> that I can correct my over-site, as I do not mean >> to. I don't see it here, though, so help me out. >> >> I didn't notice that the commentator happened to be >> black until this morning. His color has nothing to >> do with it, other than the influence he holds over >> black listeners, which is what the "buy" was about. >> Robert's remark that blacks like to be paid for such >> things is very clearly a racist slur, and Kurt is >> right on the mark. Such selling of ones soul has >> nothing to do with race. It has everything to do >> with ethics, or lack of ethics, and lack of ethics >> has nothing to do with race. >> >> At the same time, did you know that the money to pay >> for this "news man's" support came from you and me? >> That's right, the Bush Education office paid with >> tax payer dollars. Government at work for us as >> defined by the great tax cutter himself, who >> consistently suffers ethic deprivation himself. >> >> -rlo wrote: >> If Robert gets flamed then Eric deserves one too! >> Seig Heile???? +rlo >> >> Kurt Wilke wrote:Robert: >> >> Don't you think that was a very racist remark you >> made????? >> >> Those type of comments don't belong here or anywhere >> for that matter. >> >> Kurt Wilke >> >> On 1/7/2005 7:07 PM, "Robert VanNatta" wrote: >> >>> were you equally offended that Kerry paid one of >> his opponents to endorse >>> him. Seems to be a common thread here. Blacks >> insisting on being paid off >>> before doing anything. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bob Browning >>> To: Grovenet ; Mary DeLoria >>> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:23 PM >>> Subject: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! >>> >>> >>> And now they are using our tax dollars to pay >> conservative commentators to >>> pump the Prez's favorite programs . . . >>> >>> No Child Left Behind can't stand on its own two >> feet, so the Bushies pay a >>> black commentator to pump the program whenever >> possible: >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/5anlm >>> >>> And the following is a transcript of a CNN >> interview with the commentator - >>> Armstrong Williams. Try to read it - his double >> talk suggests he must be a >>> lawyer!! "He's not an employee of his firm - he's >> the owner!!" Big difference? >>> ! ? ! >>> >>> The more this goes on the more I feel like I am in >> the early stages of Nazi >>> Germany, with the Ministry of Propaganda putting >> out the news and telling us >>> how to think!! >>> >>> bob "really getting nervous!!" browning >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> AMERICAN MORNING >>> >>> TV Host Under Fire For Promoting Bush Agenda After >> Being Paid >>> >>> Aired January 7, 2005 - 08:30 ET >>> >>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN >> ITS FINAL FORM AND >>> MAY BE UPDATED. >>> >>> >>> BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: 8:30 in New York. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: Well, there's a famous talk show host now >> being paid by the >>> White House to push an agenda on education. >> Listeners apparently had no idea >>> it was happening. >>> >>> Armstrong Williams is the guy in the focus here. >> His side of the story >>> in a moment next. >>> >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: There's a TV commentator reportedly >> admitting accepting money to >>> promote President Bush's education policy. >>> >>> According to "USA Today" today, Armstrong Williams >> was paid $240,000 to >>> plug the "no child left behind" act in his >> syndicated broadcast. Some are now >>> suggesting this deal raises ethical questions and >> possibly a congressional >>> investigation. >>> >>> Armstrong Williams with me from D.C., and good >> morning to you. >>> >>> ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TV COMMENTATOR: Good morning, >> Bill. How are you? >>> >>> HEMMER: I'm doing fine. What did you do in return >> for the money? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, Bill, the -- we were subcontracted >> to Catch Em (ph). And >>> what we were doing, they used our media. We own >> our syndication, the rights >>> side, where we syndicate our shows all of the >> country. >>> >>> And with many of the affiliates, we have to pay >> them. And especially, in >>> particular markets that they wanted this "no child >> left behind" to be on their >>> airwaves, they paid for advertising time is what >> they paid for. >>> >>> And in addition to that, which is what our >> contract called for -- I made >>> it clear because it's something that really >> believed in as a commentator, >>> something I wrote often about -- that I would use >> my contacts with people that >>> I knew in different media outlets from time to >> time to get them to talk about >>> "no child left behind"... >>> >>> HEMMER: OK. Stop there. A couple of questions >> here. >>> >>> Did you disclose to your readers, did you disclose >> to your viewers about >>> the transaction? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Listen, I disclosed to different people >> whose airwaves that we >>> use. I disclosed it to different commentators. I >> don't -- I can't recall >>> whether I disclosed it to the audience or not. >>> >>> HEMMER: All right. But part of your job is to >> persuade people, right? >>> And part of your job is to present arguments that >> you believe in. And if you >>> did present those arguments and were getting money >> in return for it, why not >>> tell people? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it's not as if it was an >> issue that I did not >>> want to tell them. If issue did come up on the >> air, I made a very clear that >>> we had a professional relationship where "no child >> left behind" was using our >>> media as advertising. >>> >>> It was advertising. It's not as if we were paid. >> People look at the >>> article and say we were paid $240,000. It was in >> advertising. They used our >>> media. >>> >>> We taped a one minute commercial with Secretary >> Paige where we produced >>> -- we did for about 20 minutes. We produced a one >> minute commercial. He had >>> two, one minute commercial spots in our shows, on >> our commercial reel. >>> >>> HEMMER: Stop again. Sorry. >>> >>> You made money off this, right? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Our company did. We made money, yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: In turn, you did because you are employed >> by the company. How >>> often would you... >>> >>> WILLIAMS: No, no, no -- not employed by the >> company, I own the company. >>> There's a difference. >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: OK, well, even better. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: How often did you come here on CNN and >> promote what you talked >>> about, or wrote about or, in turn, were paid for? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I can't recall that >> because when I'm on CNN, >>> we talk about issues of Iraq, when I'm on Wolf >> Blitzer's show, when I'm on >>> "CNN MORNING." >>> >>> I can't even recall if there is ever the time that >> we talked about "no >>> child left behind." But certainly if the issue >> arises, it's very possible. I'm >>> certainly going to talk about it because I'm an >> advocate for it. >>> >>> HEMMER: Through our research, it appears back in >> October, on the 18th of >>> October, you came on and talked about that very >> thing. Do you recall that >>> discussion? Do you recall that conversation? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: I wouldn't recall it, but it's quite >> possible. I mean, I >>> appear on your broadcast quite often. And "no >> child left behind" is an issue >>> that was consistently in the media for the last >> two years. >>> >>> HEMMER: Let me just and clarify this. Can you >> understand how someone, >>> you know, colleagues in the business here would >> consider this to be unethical >>> possibly, perhaps with a bit of an odor that comes >> from it if, indeed, you're >>> promoting values and in ideas and programs in >> exchange for cash? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, certainly I understand that. In >> fact, I made it clear in >>> my interview with Greg, yesterday, from "USA >> Today" I can certainly understand >>> how some people would feel that it was unethical. >>> >>> You know, the thing about our shows, Bill, which I >> think you need to >>> understand, many of the affiliates that we >> broadcast on, we can not use paid >>> advertisers. Unless it's a public service >> announcement, many of our affiliates >>> will not run it. >>> >>> In our commercial reel, 90 percent of our >> commercials are PSAs. In the >>> history of The Right Side Productions, the only >> advertisers that we've ever >>> had is the National Rifle Association, since the >> beginning, "Forest (ph) >>> Magazine" in the beginning, and just Anderson >> Brothers Bank out of my home >>> town of Marion, South Carolina. >>> >>> It's rare that we have paid advertisers. And so, >> yes, I understand. But >>> the reason why this was able to work because not >> only was this a public >>> service announcement, and so it passed the muster >> for some of our affiliates. >>> >>> But I understand the conflict... >>> >>> HEMMER: Sure. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: ... and I understand why people would be >> concerned. >>> >>> >>> HEMMER: One more thing here. We've got to run. I'm >> sorry. I'm out of >>> time. >>> Would you do it again? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: It's a judgment call. I have no problem >> with... >>> >>> HEMMER: But if you do it again, would you tell >> folks? Would you tell >>> your listeners and viewers? >>> >>> WILLIAMS: I definitely -- I think I have an >> obligation to be more >>> vociferous about the fact that they are >> advertising on our programming. And I >>> definitely should acknowledge that to the public, >> yes. >>> >>> HEMMER: Well, thanks for coming and clearing it >> up. We wanted to get >>> your side of the story, and you gave it to us. So >> thanks, Armstrong, >>> appreciate it. >>> >>> WILLIAMS: Well, thank you. I appreciate your >> having me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet@rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet@rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 22:23:26 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A6NPkm086916 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110062325.HFAM24714.out010.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:23:25 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:23:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <54246B4A-62CD-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Message-Id: <21D533F1-62D0-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:23:24 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:23:26 -0000 On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 10:03 PM, David Morelli wrote: > ... > Maybe this is not the place for humor, but here is a curious photo. > http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/09/18/funny-sieg-heil-bush-photo.../ > > David I just read the e-mails that accompanied the photo. They are in generally poor taste. The photo isn't worth the trip. Don't bother. I'm sorry I posted it. David From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 22:37:11 2005 Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A6bB2n089666 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110063710.LUU24088.out009.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:37:10 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:37:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Savings and Loan Debacle (WAS: "she's female") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <001101c4f678$dfbb50c0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: <0DB4029C-62D2-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:37:10 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:37:12 -0000 On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 10:27 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > From this Realtor's experience in the 1980's, one of the biggest > problems with S&L's back then was appraisals. And appraisals were a > problem because of a fundamental failing in how business tends to work > in general. > ... Ron, What you wrote is a good example of the necessity of distinguishing between the proper role of business and the proper role of government. When someone advocates that government should be run like business, they confuse the two. Thanks. David From NoSpam03@comcast.net Sun Jan 9 23:00:44 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A70ipq094219 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005011007003901400gijgle>; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:00:39 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <54246B4A-62CD-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:00:45 -0000 Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. et al. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:03 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Eric's observation that fascism needs to corrupt the media would appear to parallel a quotation that appeared on a web site, and referenced the importance of propaganda to the rise of the nazi organization. "Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for victory of this idea." "The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect." Mein Kampf, A. Hitler From jo.david@verizon.net Sun Jan 9 23:05:59 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A75wqF095152 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110070557.KSKC21228.out007.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:05:57 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:05:56 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <12F3817C-62D6-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:05:56 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:06:00 -0000 On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Steven wrote: > Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > et al. > Are you suggesting that we are better served by an honest media? David From Oberzil@aol.com Sun Jan 9 23:22:27 2005 Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0A7MQUs098042 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Oberzil@aol.com) Received: from Oberzil@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.1d5.33721999 (4340) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: Oberzil@aol.com Message-ID: <1d5.33721999.2f138726@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:22:14 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:22:27 -0000 In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:04:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, jo.david@verizon.net writes: Seig: Victory Heil: Hail "Seig Heil" would be "Hail Victory" I always thought "heil" was the noun form of "heilig", as in "heilige Nacht", and therefore meant "holiness", and that, loosely translated, "sieg Heil" meant, "let holiness triumph", not that there would be any comparisons nowadays. From chuck@grovenet.net Mon Jan 10 08:28:53 2005 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AGSpEn010167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dialup-ras1-55.pdx.or.uspops.net [216.239.165.55]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j0AGSnpK005774 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:28:50 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c4f732$0b2fbd40$37a5efd8@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <200501100247.j0A2lftF007842@wolf01.wolffm.com><00d401c4f6ca$b336b470$6601a8c0@700x> <41E2024C.1000507@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bobbrowning (rab@jurislex.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:32:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:28:54 -0000 I grew up listening to what is now called 'Classic Rock'. Sounds like the same format of your radio station. Living in Dallas / "foat woth" Texas I grew an appreciation for country western music. The wife and I would spend many a weekend in a sawdust infested honky tonks 2 steppin'. Living in New Mexico I joined a garage band with some Intel buddies and we played 'oldies rock" from the 50's and 60's, I attempted to tickle the plastic synthesized ivories.. After joining the community band here in town I have found myself watching TV clasics like "The Benny Goodman Story", and "The Glen Miller Story". I think I spend more time at the councourse following Doc Jazz listening to his Dixieland Jazz than looking at cars. Last night I brought home pizza and a movie and we watched "DeLovely". Very interesting moving based on the life of Cole Porter. However one of my favorite movies is based on an Irish Soul band, (The Committments) Man that kid could sing. Very, very funny and jazzy musical, and all the actors were actually the musicians as well. If you watch it, keep in mind the lead singer was only 16yrs old when they filmed the movie. So, I would disagree that we tend to stay with what we grew up with. Chuck (but RAP is NOT music!) Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 > Interesting how we tend to stay with what we grew up with as a teenager!! > > bob "just rocking along - except for Elvis, whom I can not stand and > never could!!" browning > From rab@jurislex.com Mon Jan 10 08:36:18 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AGaHTm012425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:36:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFB46DC017; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:36:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E2AF06.6000200@jurislex.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:36:22 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks References: <8A1B3029-62C2-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <8A1B3029-62C2-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:36:18 -0000 Thanks for the additional bio!! bob "the Browning's came here in the 1920s, the Hutchens in the 1890s, but the Garriguses came in the 1860s!!" browning David Morelli wrote: > Bob, > > No. > > There are at least three clans of Morelli's in the metro area. > > One had a Michael Morelli who ran a filling station in South East > Portland and was the secretary of the Portland Gasoline Dealers > Association during a ballot battle over self service gasoline stations. > > One is the clan headed by my father. We are mostly in the Washington > County area. > > The road you saw, I believe, is named after the patriarch of the third > clan. My parents met him, I never did, and they had a wonderful time > with him. I was told that he was a farmer of the old school, and > walked his fields bare foot to get a feeling for the soil. I wish I > had met him before he died. > > I understand that there are additional Morelli's in the metro area who > are not relatives, but I have no real knowledge about them. It is a > common name in Italy, almost like "Johnson". > > David > > On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday and >> came across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to yourself?? >> >> bob "still enquiring" browning >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet@rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 08:42:40 2005 Received: from web53909.mail.yahoo.com (web53909.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.219]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0AGedQG014601 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 54343 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2005 16:40:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=GUnxDLj72jJG6grow5GSfcjQ/Vwov+EdVh1whFXxctmdMICzt9mo8C7dZMf9m2HZj7kYeByfQIcle/Mc6CdfSQaYdWIY4LZpc6T3x0un0+EEleBaQrVoc3hsSOYwLYNSt6HNSh9W4zze25Y1+0hPuKIVDIGZhqx34rJ6i0d2WxQ= ; Message-ID: <20050110164033.54341.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:40:33 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:40:33 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bobbrowning (rab@jurislex.com) To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000e01c4f732$0b2fbd40$37a5efd8@server> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:42:40 -0000 Is the movie called "The Committments"? Chuck Underwood wrote: However one of my favorite movies is based on an Irish Soul band, (The Committments) Man that kid could sing. Very, very funny and jazzy musical, and all the actors were actually the musicians as well. If you watch it, keep in mind the lead singer was only 16yrs old when they filmed the movie. So, I would disagree that we tend to stay with what we grew up with. Chuck (but RAP is NOT music!) Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 > Interesting how we tend to stay with what we grew up with as a teenager!! > > bob "just rocking along - except for Elvis, whom I can not stand and > never could!!" browning > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Mon Jan 10 08:49:09 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AGl8hZ016178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:49:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5421A364003; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:47:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E2B185.5080504@jurislex.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:47:01 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bobbrowning (rab@jurislex.com) References: <200501100247.j0A2lftF007842@wolf01.wolffm.com><00d401c4f6ca$b336b470$6601a8c0@700x> <41E2024C.1000507@jurislex.com> <000e01c4f732$0b2fbd40$37a5efd8@server> In-Reply-To: <000e01c4f732$0b2fbd40$37a5efd8@server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:49:09 -0000 Ha!! You made my case for me!! bob "contemporary country western is not classic, twangy country western" browning Chuck Underwood wrote: > > >but RAP is NOT music! > > > > From NoSpam03@comcast.net Mon Jan 10 09:23:04 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AHN4NE024276 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005011017225801400ghba8e>; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:22:58 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:22:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <12F3817C-62D6-11D9-97E0-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:23:04 -0000 Nope. Exactly what I said. Anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. FDR managed to downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. What I am suggesting is that you can't call the governemnt facist and use 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:06 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Steven wrote: > Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > et al. > Are you suggesting that we are better served by an honest media? David From johnb@easystreet.com Mon Jan 10 09:41:50 2005 Received: from mxqueue.easystreet.com (mxqueue.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.9]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AHfnM2029144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnb@easystreet.com) Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (bond0.cpq075.bea1.easy.easystreet.com [10.32.10.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxqueue.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C82A2FEA6 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRUMPY2 (grumpy.easystreet.com [209.162.209.82]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107516DC01C for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:41:40 -0800 (PST) From: "John Beaston" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:41:39 -0800 Organization: EasyStreet Online Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcT3MkiAJnBxYWfgS1uXylg42kHttAACPUpA Message-Id: <20050110174140.107516DC01C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: [Grovenet] More on safe computing X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: johnb@easystreet.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:41:51 -0000 A summary of the good advice given by others. David is an old PC buddy of mine. He knows of what he speaks. -John -----Original Message----- From: owner-informant@avolio.com [mailto:owner-informant@avolio.com] On Behalf Of david@strom.com Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:29 AM To: informant@avolio.com Subject: [Web-Informant] #396, 10 January 2005: More on safe computing Web Informant #396, 10 January 2005: More on safe computing http://strom.com/awards/396.html Let's start off the new year by getting our systems free of the accumulated junk that various malware programs have left on them. And it is nice that the fruit of the acquisition of Giant Software by Microsoft (I know, it sounds like a redundant joke) is finally in evidence: last week, Microsoft released its first beta of its very own spyware removal tool. While I haven't done extensive testing, if you are interested in trying it out, go here: http://tinyurl.com/5odlz I tried to test the software on an infected machine, but as luck would have it, everything is working fine for a change around here. You might want to take a look at a review from FlexBeta that is mostly positive in comparing the MS tool with Ad-Aware and SpyBot, the two gold standards that I use: http://www.flexbeta.net/main/printarticle.php?id=84 Spyware is perhaps the biggest problem that Windows users have to deal with today. I don't know a single household or business that hasn't had to remove these pests in the past several months, and I am glad to see Microsoft finally stepping up to the challenge. Of course, I agree with Walt Mossberg of the Journal. The best way to fight spyware is to use a Mac -- my Mac hasn't had any problems here at Strom central (so far). But for those of you who will not make that leap and who are wrestling with spyware, here are my own personal tips, collected from around the Internet and my own trials and tribulations. To summarize, you'll need the following five items to be totally safe from the bad guys: 1. Hardware firewall/router/gateway 2. Software firewall 3. Anti-virus protection 4. Remove and replace dangerous Windows components 5. Spyware detection/removal tools if all else fails 1. Buy a hardware firewall/router/gateway. First off, make sure that your networks are safe from invasion. Use a hardware firewall on your home or business network and make sure it is set up properly. That is perhaps the most important thing you can do to repel the bad guys. Even if you own a single computer, do not, I repeat, do not directly connect your Windows PC to your cable modem without using one of these boxes. There is no excuse for that, given that prices are less than $50 for some units. If you do go with the lower priced spread, be aware some of the units from D-Link, Buffalo and others need some tweaking to repel outside pings. Also, make sure once you connect the unit that you update it with the latest firmware. I was happily surprised to see that a Netgear router that I recently purchased had a one-button firmware update function on one of its menus, and all I can say it is about time. While you are at it, turn on wireless encryption unless you want to become a wireless hot spot for your neighbors. I would also turn off XP's File and Printer Sharing option (under the Network Control Panel) if you don't plan on sharing any files around your network. 2. Use a software firewall. A hardware firewall isn't enough, particularly if you own a laptop and it travels to other networks where it can get infected. The problem is that the bad guys are getting clever about how to penetrate your defenses. I have come to the conclusion that every laptop should have a software firewall installed, and make sure that you leave it turned on. The firewall that comes included with XP SP2 is good, but the one from Zone Labs called Zone Alarm is even better and the one that I recommend. They have a free version but the Pro version for $50 a year is well worth the additional cost. My friend Fred Avolio recommends several other protective products here: http://www.avolio.com/weblog/security/malware.html I tried PrevX and don't recommend it. As is the case with some of these products, they tighten up your machine so much that you spend a great deal of time clicking on the warning messages and eventually lose track of what is just expected behavior and get complacent or annoyed. I haven't had time to try the others that Fred mentioned. 3. Run anti-virus software. Norton Anti-Virus is still the best, but I haven't tried the 2005 version yet. If you are running earlier versions, make sure you pay to renew your subscription on all of your PCs when the subscriptions expire because they don't do you any good without the most current updates. My friend Scot Finnie recommends upgrading every other year to the new NAV and I would trust his judgment. You can read more about his reactions to NAV2005 here: http://www.scotsnewsletter.com/64.htm#symnorton 4. Remove and replace the dangerous Windows components that keep you at risk. I would steer clear of Outlook/Outlook Express and IE, since they are the major vector of Internet infections. I use the free Mozilla.org replacements Firefox and Thunderbird and have been very happy with both. If you download both, they will automatically find your favorites, mail settings, and address books and make the update as painless as possible. Another email alternative to T-bird is Pocomail.com, but that will cost you $40. You get rid of OE from Control Panel/Add or Remove Programs/Windows Components in XP. You can't really remove IE from XP but at least you can stop using it as your default browser for most of your Web pages, If you are running Windows 98, you can remove IE using LitePC here: http://www.litepc.com/ieradicator.html 5. Spyware removal resources. Okay, you didn't follow all of my recommendations, or you are infected, or you are trying to help out a friend in need. Here is where you need to look to get smarter. First off, if you want a general education more than you can ever read on the topic has been collected by my friend Dave Piscitello here: http://hhi.corecom.com/catspam_and_spyware.htm My friend Michael Horowitz has excellent and very detailed practical spyware removal instructons that are worth reviewing here: http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/removespyware.html And finally, Walt Mossberg recommends Webroot.com's anti-Spyware detection and removal tool SpySweeper (which costs $30). I haven't used it (generally I run the free Ad-Aware and SpyBot) but you can read his column here http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20040916.html Good luck with safe computing. There is a lot to do to your average Windows machine, and plan on spending the better part of a weekend if you just bought a new machine to get it completely under control. I know this seems like a lot of work but the time you invest today will pay off down the road. Of course, if you add up all the extras you'll need to buy, the additional $100-$200 that you might spend on a Mac might make more sense now too. But I don't want to get into that fight. Happy new year and may your PCs remain free of problems. -- To subscribe send e-mail to informant-request@avolio.com with "subscribe" (without the quotes) in the message body. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe." -- Entire contents copyright 2005 by David Strom, Inc. David Strom, david@strom.com Web Informant is (r) registered trademark with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. ISSN #1524-6353 registered with U.S. Library of Congress If you'd like to subscribe (issues are sent via email), please send an email to: mailto:Informant-request@avolio.com?body=subscribe From allnutt@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 09:50:32 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AHoUf1031271 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110175030.YNU1106.out003.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:50:30 -0600 Message-ID: <004501c4f806$4526a7f0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:52:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:50:29 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:50:32 -0000 Point well stated Steven. When people don't trust the government and they don't trust the media it is a situation ripe for unrest. Ideal is when you can trust both. Okay is when you can trust one or the other. Bad is when you can trust neither. Worst is when they both conspire against the populace. What I really don't like is that this administration believes as you do. That anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. So they are progressing along with that belief. I believe the opposite. To truly be a success you have to not corrupt the media along the way. To truly be a success you need an impartial media declare you successful. Otherwise all your accolades are meaningless. Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:22 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > Nope. Exactly what I said. > Anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > FDR managed to downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. > What I am suggesting is that you can't call the governemnt facist and use > 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:06 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Steven wrote: > >> Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> et al. >> > > Are you suggesting that we are better served by an honest media? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 10:31:38 2005 Received: from web53906.mail.yahoo.com (web53906.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.216]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0AIVbfs040815 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:31:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 42093 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2005 18:31:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=OVtL0Okc/XiZgxX4JY34nTAOHW8aeGbitFBURBB0syRbUJ2r0Pt3H3bpgpwUM8khC9de5WkRWKqSC8DcD5DE36/Uz15phDtB3OpxAz6C1eBeBWpqHfxlkBz9TjAlov6QwpeFUszaAHyFu2UqEaCvxthh8tGCcWIIAvjSO+zaFOo= ; Message-ID: <20050110183132.42091.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:31:32 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <004501c4f806$4526a7f0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:31:39 -0000 That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they say, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe Lincoln) said similar things, too. What amazes me is that people are still fooled. allnutt wrote: Point well stated Steven. When people don't trust the government and they don't trust the media it is a situation ripe for unrest. Ideal is when you can trust both. Okay is when you can trust one or the other. Bad is when you can trust neither. Worst is when they both conspire against the populace. What I really don't like is that this administration believes as you do. That anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. So they are progressing along with that belief. I believe the opposite. To truly be a success you have to not corrupt the media along the way. To truly be a success you need an impartial media declare you successful. Otherwise all your accolades are meaningless. Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:22 AM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > Nope. Exactly what I said. > Anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. > FDR managed to downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. > What I am suggesting is that you can't call the governemnt facist and use > 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:06 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Steven wrote: > >> Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> et al. >> > > Are you suggesting that we are better served by an honest media? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com Mon Jan 10 10:53:20 2005 Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f5.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.15]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AIrKrM046896 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:53:09 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 216.99.192.247 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:52:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.99.192.247] X-Originating-Email: [dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dicklajeunesse@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <00c001c4f692$c2ca1c20$0301a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Dick La Jeunesse" To: grovenet@rdrop.com Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:52:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2005 18:53:09.0582 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0CD26E0:01C4F745] X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:53:20 -0000 I enthusiastically recommend Stan Couch at Affordable Automotive. Stan is an excellent mechanic and absolutely ethical. Dick From benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com Mon Jan 10 10:57:09 2005 Received: from vwfs.com (mail.vwfs.com [63.174.218.66]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AIv4EE048127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com) Received: from ([10.136.50.52]) by mail.vwfs.com with ESMTP id 133020024.8118546; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:41:18 -0600 Received: by usvcilvx001.afc.vw.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:41:07 -0600 Message-ID: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC8C6@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> From: "Monjay, Benjamin" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:41:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Grovenet] Power Outage X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:57:09 -0000 For all of those who may have power and cannot get ahold of anyone who may not, the power is out in the neighborhoods around the High School. The city says appro 3-4 hours and a primary line went down on Thatcher Rd. Im not sure how big it is as I'm at work. *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** From dragonflypress@lycos.com Mon Jan 10 11:04:08 2005 Received: from fallback.us4.outblaze.com (fallback.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.120]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJ47KG049765 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dragonflypress@lycos.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by fallback.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB0F1C11F8A for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:39:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 8E46318001D4 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:39:02 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 10 Jan 2005 18:38:55 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C3BBFE5BCB; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:38:53 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [66.14.153.35] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dragonflypress@lycos.com; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:38:53 -0800 From: "Jeanne Levy" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:38:53 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks X-Originating-Ip: 66.14.153.35 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050110183853.C3BBFE5BCB@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0AJ47KG049765 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:04:08 -0000 Haven't posted anything in a long time, but Morelli brought back to mind John Morelli, an Italian farmer out on "South Rd.", actually west (maybe a little southwest) of Gaston. He had a small farm with a swimming hole. Lots of kids tried that out on hot August days. John was quite a character. We would see him (almost) every Sunday at the old St. Johns Catholic Church in Gaston. He would visit with my father after mass. Dad read the Sunday paper in the car while waiting for the rest of his family. (He was Baptist.) I can see someone like him walking the fields in his bare feet, even if he's not the one you're speaking of. He made his own wine, too, and still had quite an Italian accent. In the 1960s, in a "hick town" like Gaston, that was quite exotic. : ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Morelli" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:46:06 -0800 > > Bob, > > No. > > There are at least three clans of Morelli's in the metro area. > > One had a Michael Morelli who ran a filling station in South East > Portland and was the secretary of the Portland Gasoline Dealers > Association during a ballot battle over self service gasoline > stations. > > One is the clan headed by my father. We are mostly in the > Washington County area. > > The road you saw, I believe, is named after the patriarch of the > third clan. My parents met him, I never did, and they had a > wonderful time with him. I was told that he was a farmer of the > old school, and walked his fields bare foot to get a feeling for > the soil. I wish I had met him before he died. > > I understand that there are additional Morelli's in the metro area > who are not relatives, but I have no real knowledge about them. It > is a common name in Italy, almost like "Johnson". > > David > > On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > > > I was out on the highway between Yamhill and Newberg yesterday > > and came across Morelli Road. Well, David, any relationship to > > yourself?? > > > > bob "still enquiring" browning > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 From ggsteele@gte.net Mon Jan 10 11:07:45 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJ7iwZ051632 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110190743.IIPY8290.out004.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: <000701c4f747$aa32c850$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC8C6@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:07:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:07:43 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:07:45 -0000 So that's why our power kept flashing on and off a while ago (I'm on = Watercrest) ... But it eventually decided to stop flashing and stay on. Thanks for the info! Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Monjay, Benjamin=20 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'=20 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Power Outage For all of those who may have power and cannot get ahold of anyone who = may not, the power is out in the neighborhoods around the High School. The = city says appro 3-4 hours and a primary line went down on Thatcher Rd. Im = not sure how big it is as I'm at work. = ***********************************************************************=20 DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. = *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ggsteele@gte.net Mon Jan 10 11:09:04 2005 Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJ93Y1051988 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggsteele@gte.net) Received: from gerianehzkfhvy ([4.5.6.130]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110190901.PSAW12052.out002.verizon.net@gerianehzkfhvy>; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:09:01 -0600 Message-ID: <001501c4f747$d8f833a0$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> From: "Geri" To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050110174140.107516DC01C@smtp.easystreet.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More on safe computing Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:09:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.5.6.130] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:09:01 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:09:05 -0000 John, thank you for passing this along ... Geri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Beaston=20 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'=20 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:41 AM Subject: [Grovenet] More on safe computing A summary of the good advice given by others. David is an old PC = buddy of mine. He knows of what he speaks. -John -----Original Message----- From: owner-informant@avolio.com [mailto:owner-informant@avolio.com] = On Behalf Of david@strom.com Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:29 AM To: informant@avolio.com Subject: [Web-Informant] #396, 10 January 2005: More on safe computing Web Informant #396, 10 January 2005: More on safe=20 computing http://strom.com/awards/396.html Let's start off the new year by getting our systems free=20 of the accumulated junk that various malware programs have=20 left on them. And it is nice that the fruit of the=20 acquisition of Giant Software by Microsoft (I know, it=20 sounds like a redundant joke) is finally in evidence: last=20 week, Microsoft released its first beta of its very own=20 spyware removal tool. While I haven't done extensive=20 testing, if you are interested in trying it out, go here:=20 http://tinyurl.com/5odlz I tried to test the software on an infected machine, but=20 as luck would have it, everything is working fine for a=20 change around here. You might want to take a look at a=20 review from FlexBeta that is mostly positive in comparing=20 the MS tool with Ad-Aware and SpyBot, the two gold=20 standards that I use: http://www.flexbeta.net/main/printarticle.php?id=3D84 Spyware is perhaps the biggest problem that Windows users=20 have to deal with today. I don't know a single household=20 or business that hasn't had to remove these pests in the=20 past several months, and I am glad to see Microsoft=20 finally stepping up to the challenge. Of course, I agree=20 with Walt Mossberg of the Journal. The best way to fight=20 spyware is to use a Mac -- my Mac hasn't had any problems=20 here at Strom central (so far). But for those of you who=20 will not make that leap and who are wrestling with=20 spyware, here are my own personal tips, collected from=20 around the Internet and my own trials and tribulations. To=20 summarize, you'll need the following five items to be=20 totally safe from the bad guys: 1. Hardware firewall/router/gateway 2. Software firewall 3. Anti-virus protection 4. Remove and replace dangerous Windows components=20 5. Spyware detection/removal tools if all else fails 1. Buy a hardware firewall/router/gateway. First off, make=20 sure that your networks are safe from invasion. Use a=20 hardware firewall on your home or business network and=20 make sure it is set up properly. That is perhaps the most=20 important thing you can do to repel the bad guys. Even if=20 you own a single computer, do not, I repeat, do not=20 directly connect your Windows PC to your cable modem=20 without using one of these boxes. There is no excuse for=20 that, given that prices are less than $50 for some units.=20 If you do go with the lower priced spread, be aware some=20 of the units from D-Link, Buffalo and others need some=20 tweaking to repel outside pings. Also, make sure once you=20 connect the unit that you update it with the latest=20 firmware. I was happily surprised to see that a Netgear=20 router that I recently purchased had a one-button firmware=20 update function on one of its menus, and all I can say it=20 is about time. While you are at it, turn on wireless=20 encryption unless you want to become a wireless hot spot=20 for your neighbors. I would also turn off XP's File and=20 Printer Sharing option (under the Network Control Panel)=20 if you don't plan on sharing any files around your=20 network. 2. Use a software firewall. A hardware firewall isn't=20 enough, particularly if you own a laptop and it travels to=20 other networks where it can get infected. The problem is=20 that the bad guys are getting clever about how to=20 penetrate your defenses. I have come to the conclusion=20 that every laptop should have a software firewall=20 installed, and make sure that you leave it turned on. The=20 firewall that comes included with XP SP2 is good, but the=20 one from Zone Labs called Zone Alarm is even better and=20 the one that I recommend. They have a free version but the=20 Pro version for $50 a year is well worth the additional=20 cost. My friend Fred Avolio recommends several other=20 protective products here: http://www.avolio.com/weblog/security/malware.html I tried PrevX and don't recommend it. As is the case with=20 some of these products, they tighten up your machine so=20 much that you spend a great deal of time clicking on the=20 warning messages and eventually lose track of what is just=20 expected behavior and get complacent or annoyed. I haven't=20 had time to try the others that Fred mentioned.=20 3. Run anti-virus software. Norton Anti-Virus is still the=20 best, but I haven't tried the 2005 version yet. If you are=20 running earlier versions, make sure you pay to renew your=20 subscription on all of your PCs when the subscriptions=20 expire because they don't do you any good without the most=20 current updates. My friend Scot Finnie recommends=20 upgrading every other year to the new NAV and I would=20 trust his judgment. You can read more about his reactions=20 to NAV2005 here: http://www.scotsnewsletter.com/64.htm#symnorton 4. Remove and replace the dangerous Windows components=20 that keep you at risk. I would steer clear of=20 Outlook/Outlook Express and IE, since they are the major=20 vector of Internet infections. I use the free Mozilla.org=20 replacements Firefox and Thunderbird and have been very=20 happy with both. If you download both, they will=20 automatically find your favorites, mail settings, and=20 address books and make the update as painless as possible.=20 Another email alternative to T-bird is Pocomail.com, but=20 that will cost you $40. You get rid of OE from Control=20 Panel/Add or Remove Programs/Windows Components in XP. You=20 can't really remove IE from XP but at least you can stop=20 using it as your default browser for most of your Web=20 pages, If you are running Windows 98, you can remove IE=20 using LitePC here: http://www.litepc.com/ieradicator.html 5. Spyware removal resources. Okay, you didn't follow all=20 of my recommendations, or you are infected, or you are=20 trying to help out a friend in need. Here is where you=20 need to look to get smarter. First off, if you want a=20 general education more than you can ever read on the topic=20 has been collected by my friend Dave Piscitello here: http://hhi.corecom.com/catspam_and_spyware.htm My friend Michael Horowitz has excellent and very detailed=20 practical spyware removal instructons that are worth=20 reviewing here: http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/removespyware.html And finally, Walt Mossberg recommends Webroot.com's=20 anti-Spyware detection and removal tool SpySweeper (which=20 costs $30). I haven't used it (generally I run the free=20 Ad-Aware and SpyBot) but you can read his column here http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20040916.html Good luck with safe computing. There is a lot to do to=20 your average Windows machine, and plan on spending the=20 better part of a weekend if you just bought a new machine=20 to get it completely under control. I know this seems like=20 a lot of work but the time you invest today will pay off=20 down the road. Of course, if you add up all the extras=20 you'll need to buy, the additional $100-$200 that you=20 might spend on a Mac might make more sense now too. But I=20 don't want to get into that fight. Happy new year and may=20 your PCs remain free of problems. -- To subscribe send e-mail to informant-request@avolio.com with "subscribe" (without the quotes) in the message body. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe." -- Entire contents copyright 2005 by David Strom, Inc. David Strom, david@strom.com Web Informant is (r) registered trademark with the U.S. Patent and = Trademark Office. ISSN #1524-6353 registered with U.S. Library of Congress If you'd like to subscribe (issues are sent via email), please send an = email to: mailto:Informant-request@avolio.com?body=3Dsubscribe _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 11:21:12 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJLBM0055263 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050110192110.CLZV1106.out003.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:10 -0600 Message-ID: <001801c4f749$c4cfc300$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC8C6@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> <000701c4f747$aa32c850$82060504@gerianehzkfhvy> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:22:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:09 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:21:13 -0000 Does anybody know if the high school itself is affected? K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage So that's why our power kept flashing on and off a while ago (I'm on Watercrest) ... But it eventually decided to stop flashing and stay on. Thanks for the info! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Monjay, Benjamin To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Power Outage For all of those who may have power and cannot get ahold of anyone who may not, the power is out in the neighborhoods around the High School. The city says appro 3-4 hours and a primary line went down on Thatcher Rd. Im not sure how big it is as I'm at work. *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Chintzkat@aol.com Mon Jan 10 11:33:31 2005 Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJXVGG058473 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Chintzkat@aol.com) Received: from Chintzkat@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.ee.a376b01 (26116) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:33:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chintzkat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:33:22 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:33:32 -0000 Yes - High School has had no power for quite a while. Son just called from cell phone to get an off campus pass to go out to lunch. Kathy From benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com Mon Jan 10 11:37:36 2005 Received: from vwfs.com (mail.vwfs.com [63.174.218.66]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AJbW0Y059607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com) Received: from ([10.136.50.52]) by mail.vwfs.com with ESMTP id 133020024.8120196; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:36:55 -0600 Received: by usvcilvx001.afc.vw.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:36:50 -0600 Message-ID: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC8CC@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> From: "Monjay, Benjamin" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Power Outage Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:36:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:37:36 -0000 I would assume so. I'm only 2 blocks away and when my powers been out in the past so has the HS -----Original Message----- From: allnutt [mailto:allnutt@verizon.net] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:23 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage Does anybody know if the high school itself is affected? K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Power Outage So that's why our power kept flashing on and off a while ago (I'm on Watercrest) ... But it eventually decided to stop flashing and stay on. Thanks for the info! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Monjay, Benjamin To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Power Outage For all of those who may have power and cannot get ahold of anyone who may not, the power is out in the neighborhoods around the High School. The city says appro 3-4 hours and a primary line went down on Thatcher Rd. Im not sure how big it is as I'm at work. *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** From chuck@grovenet.net Mon Jan 10 12:15:25 2005 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AKFNRY070430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dsl-66-78-72-240.ipns.com [66.78.72.240]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j0AKFIpK007366 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:15:18 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c4f751$af109e10$6700a8c0@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050110164033.54341.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bobbrowning (rab@jurislex.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:19:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:15:27 -0000 yep its on VHS at blockbuster. Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Canon" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Site Recommendation from bobbrowning (rab@jurislex.com) > Is the movie called "The Committments"? > > Chuck Underwood wrote: However one of my favorite movies is > based on an Irish Soul band, (The Committments) Man that kid could sing. > Very, very funny and jazzy musical, and all the actors were actually the > musicians as well. If you watch it, keep in mind the lead singer was only > 16yrs old when they filmed the movie. > > So, I would disagree that we tend to stay with what we grew up with. > > Chuck (but RAP is NOT music!) Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove, OR 97116 > (503) 359-5851 > > > > Interesting how we tend to stay with what we grew up with as a teenager!! > > > > bob "just rocking along - except for Elvis, whom I can not stand and > > never could!!" browning > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From isis23ra@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 12:27:14 2005 Received: from web54501.mail.yahoo.com (web54501.mail.yahoo.com [68.142.225.171]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0AKREKY073342 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:27:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isis23ra@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 42516 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2005 20:27:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20050110202707.42514.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.188.142] by web54501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:27:07 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:27:07 -0800 (PST) From: Alana Graham To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000601c4f751$af109e10$6700a8c0@server> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] Free Music This Wed! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:27:15 -0000 THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE DARK AGES will be the focus of music historians Gayle and Philip Neuman on Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 7 p.m. in the FG Community Auditorium (1915 Main Street.) Learn about and hear music from the late medieval and early Renaisssance periods played on reproduction instruments. The Friends of the FG Library are sponsoring this program which is free and open to the public. Gayle Neuman and Philip Neuman (ensemble De Organographia) are on the music faculty at Marylhurst University and the University of Portland and are members of the Trail Band and other local musical groups. Hope to see you there! Alana __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 10 12:32:00 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AKW0Kk074380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:32:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C3029523 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:31:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:31:35 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000401c4f753$66dfb660$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0AKW0Kk074380 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:01 -0000 Steven wrote: ...FDR managed to downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. What I am suggesting is that you can't call the government facist and use 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. ------------------------------------------------------- Steven, in an odd way I agree with your overall premise while I disagree with the statements. I'm not sure what you mean by "corrupting" or whether it means anything at all. Let me explain. No one in their right mind wants to know everything about everything. We'd be totally overwhelmed unable to function. That's why honesty is critical in human relations. Honesty requires a careful evaluation of what others need to know. Even if we're answering a direct question, we are smart to do that, as any parent of an 5-year-old who asks where babies come from understands. That is not lying. That is not corruption. That is intelligent communications. Your example is good. FDR was aware that the American people did not want to have the image of a crippled person as their President. FDR never hid the fact that he was crippled, but he did what the people wanted and what he could do: he made sure the image of the American President was that of a healthy, robust, effective leader. John F. Kennedy did the same thing. He was crippled by any definition. Even so, he fulfilled the image of what the people wanted to see in their President. Still, you raise a valid question. G. W. Bush has done the same thing. He has spoken the truth about Iraq: Saddam was not an immediate threat, Saddam had no WMD, Saddam had no WMD programs. The President has said all of those things, but his words were quietly said cloaked in a volley of loud pronouncements about how important it is for America to avenge 9/11 and export democracy around the world. Faced with the choice of hearing that we've made a colossal blunder or that we are actually doing some good by killing hundreds of thousands of people, Americans want to believe that we're doing something good. If you read their stories, that's exactly how a lot of Germans felt as they started hearing about Hitler's "final solution" for the Jewish question. They wanted to believe that he was right. They were powerless to stop him, so many Germans hoped beyond hope that the Jews were responsible for the ills of the Christian world and that exterminating them was really for some long term good for Germany and all nations. After all, Hitler himself was a self-professed Christian. Hitler justified his actions by pointing out that Jews were responsible for murders, kidnappings and dishonest acts of all kinds. He was right, just as President Bush's supporters are right that about Saddam. The question is still the same. Is our response appropriate? So who is at fault? The media for not more robustly pursuing President Bush's misinformation campaign or the people for being passive? I think both, and that the greatest responsibility lies with the American people. We must apply certain criteria in order to decide whether someone deserves our trust. We must trust our criteria. For me, one point is how a person accepts responsibility for mistakes. All people make mistakes. Mature, intelligent people admit the mistakes and move to correct the error. Childish minds try to rationalize the mistakes and cover them up. President Bush has spent the past almost-two years rationalizing and covering up the Iraq mistake. There were no WMD, there was no threat. He insists that only others, not he, has made mistakes. In my world, only God does not make mistakes, and G.W. Bush is not God. Is it the press' fault that they do not pursue that more diligently? Have they not? Have they not made it abundantly clear that the President was wrong and that the President refuses to accept responsibility? Worse, have they not made it abundantly clear that the President is ducking and weaving like an 8-year-old trying to justify his awful mistake? Personally, I think the press has done a credible job. Sure, American press stories are slanted. They have admitted that. They have reported on themselves that they are controlled almost completely by pro-President-Bush factions, right down to the substantiated reports that some company heads have ordered their media outlets across the nation to squash certain news because it was not complimentary to the President. Perhaps the press is corrupted, but we have been warned about that. What more do we deserve? Do we want the press to do what I think we should have done in November and bring the President down and force him from office? Is that a fair expectation? We got lucky with President Nixon, but will there be another "Deep Throat" and reporters willing and able to follow the leads? I believe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation. In many respects we live today in the same environment that Germans lived in back in 1937. Overall, we are responding in much the same way - in blind trust that our leader will make it work. We seem afraid to speak out, to stand by our beliefs and accept the consequences. They trust in his assurances that America will lead the world, by force wherever necessary. I don't. It is profoundly disturbing to me that, apparently, half of the American people accepted that last November, whether or not they realized what they were doing. That happened before too. In Germany. Ron D'Eau Claire From canonmetals@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 12:50:05 2005 Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0AKo4T4078762 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 40321 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2005 20:49:59 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=My7n1bkIRHH2p4CdL8drEGXNnvG2ND9iUsLyuGNuSD0hZiqRTLi9Yea0dqbJTNf7vq7N4p8Pe3yAC8hhdEwg2C1NfTr2c/4JtQzQzZCOvHIXj6xGYoQEW4/ksh/c17pa4tmOc2WqMza1I/HtpKEoONZhaLryE1h2uFZGbcqAw1k= ; Message-ID: <20050110204959.40319.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:49:59 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:49:59 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000401c4f753$66dfb660$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:50:05 -0000 Too darn long, Ron, but Amen! none the less. Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:Steven wrote: ...FDR managed to downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. What I am suggesting is that you can't call the government facist and use 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. ------------------------------------------------------- Steven, in an odd way I agree with your overall premise while I disagree with the statements. I'm not sure what you mean by "corrupting" or whether it means anything at all. Let me explain. No one in their right mind wants to know everything about everything. We'd be totally overwhelmed unable to function. That's why honesty is critical in human relations. Honesty requires a careful evaluation of what others need to know. Even if we're answering a direct question, we are smart to do that, as any parent of an 5-year-old who asks where babies come from understands. That is not lying. That is not corruption. That is intelligent communications. Your example is good. FDR was aware that the American people did not want to have the image of a crippled person as their President. FDR never hid the fact that he was crippled, but he did what the people wanted and what he could do: he made sure the image of the American President was that of a healthy, robust, effective leader. John F. Kennedy did the same thing. He was crippled by any definition. Even so, he fulfilled the image of what the people wanted to see in their President. Still, you raise a valid question. G. W. Bush has done the same thing. He has spoken the truth about Iraq: Saddam was not an immediate threat, Saddam had no WMD, Saddam had no WMD programs. The President has said all of those things, but his words were quietly said cloaked in a volley of loud pronouncements about how important it is for America to avenge 9/11 and export democracy around the world. Faced with the choice of hearing that we've made a colossal blunder or that we are actually doing some good by killing hundreds of thousands of people, Americans want to believe that we're doing something good. If you read their stories, that's exactly how a lot of Germans felt as they started hearing about Hitler's "final solution" for the Jewish question. They wanted to believe that he was right. They were powerless to stop him, so many Germans hoped beyond hope that the Jews were responsible for the ills of the Christian world and that exterminating them was really for some long term good for Germany and all nations. After all, Hitler himself was a self-professed Christian. Hitler justified his actions by pointing out that Jews were responsible for murders, kidnappings and dishonest acts of all kinds. He was right, just as President Bush's supporters are right that about Saddam. The question is still the same. Is our response appropriate? So who is at fault? The media for not more robustly pursuing President Bush's misinformation campaign or the people for being passive? I think both, and that the greatest responsibility lies with the American people. We must apply certain criteria in order to decide whether someone deserves our trust. We must trust our criteria. For me, one point is how a person accepts responsibility for mistakes. All people make mistakes. Mature, intelligent people admit the mistakes and move to correct the error. Childish minds try to rationalize the mistakes and cover them up. President Bush has spent the past almost-two years rationalizing and covering up the Iraq mistake. There were no WMD, there was no threat. He insists that only others, not he, has made mistakes. In my world, only God does not make mistakes, and G.W. Bush is not God. Is it the press' fault that they do not pursue that more diligently? Have they not? Have they not made it abundantly clear that the President was wrong and that the President refuses to accept responsibility? Worse, have they not made it abundantly clear that the President is ducking and weaving like an 8-year-old trying to justify his awful mistake? Personally, I think the press has done a credible job. Sure, American press stories are slanted. They have admitted that. They have reported on themselves that they are controlled almost completely by pro-President-Bush factions, right down to the substantiated reports that some company heads have ordered their media outlets across the nation to squash certain news because it was not complimentary to the President. Perhaps the press is corrupted, but we have been warned about that. What more do we deserve? Do we want the press to do what I think we should have done in November and bring the President down and force him from office? Is that a fair expectation? We got lucky with President Nixon, but will there be another "Deep Throat" and reporters willing and able to follow the leads? I believe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation. In many respects we live today in the same environment that Germans lived in back in 1937. Overall, we are responding in much the same way - in blind trust that our leader will make it work. We seem afraid to speak out, to stand by our beliefs and accept the consequences. They trust in his assurances that America will lead the world, by force wherever necessary. I don't. It is profoundly disturbing to me that, apparently, half of the American people accepted that last November, whether or not they realized what they were doing. That happened before too. In Germany. Ron D'Eau Claire _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Mon Jan 10 13:50:04 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0ALo4UX093045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:50:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3086DC056; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:50:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E2F892.9040808@jurislex.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:50:10 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:50:05 -0000 Still more local choices, yea, verily, a plethora of choices!! bob "pick one, any one, and you will probably come out okay!!" browning Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > I enthusiastically recommend Stan Couch at Affordable Automotive. > Stan is an excellent mechanic and absolutely ethical. > > Dick > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > From rab@jurislex.com Mon Jan 10 14:30:34 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AMUYnl002627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:30:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150516DC057; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:30:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E3020F.2020600@jurislex.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:30:39 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grovenet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Grovenet] Westside Auto Repair X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:30:35 -0000 See the new Westside Auto Repair website at: www.westsideautorepair.com bob "glad to help" browning From chuck@grovenet.net Mon Jan 10 14:50:36 2005 Received: from email-out.userservices.net (email-out.userservices.net [207.109.251.2]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AMoZfo007451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@grovenet.net) Received: from server (dsl-66-78-72-240.ipns.com [66.78.72.240]) by email-out.userservices.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j0AMoYpK031424 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:50:34 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c4f767$60521220$6700a8c0@server> From: "Chuck Underwood" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <41E2F892.9040808@jurislex.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:54:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:50:36 -0000 I second Jim at Jim's Automotive. I took my wife's van in this morning. Every 2 years it fails DEQ...consistently. We take it to Jim's and he 'tweaks' it until it passes. He even volunteered to take it to DEQ for us this morning, however they were closed today so he dropped it off at my wife's work and is going to pick it up from her work tomorrow and take it to DEQ for us and then return it. Now that's going the extra mile. Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation > Still more local choices, yea, verily, a plethora of choices!! > > bob "pick one, any one, and you will probably come out okay!!" browning > > Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > > > I enthusiastically recommend Stan Couch at Affordable Automotive. > > Stan is an excellent mechanic and absolutely ethical. > > > > Dick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 10 14:56:10 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0AMu9X9008705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3FC2953A for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:56:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:55:48 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000701c4f767$886e2af0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001101c4f767$60521220$6700a8c0@server> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0AMu9X9008705 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:56:10 -0000 Wow! Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Underwood Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:55 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation I second Jim at Jim's Automotive. I took my wife's van in this morning. Every 2 years it fails DEQ...consistently. We take it to Jim's and he 'tweaks' it until it passes. He even volunteered to take it to DEQ for us this morning, however they were closed today so he dropped it off at my wife's work and is going to pick it up from her work tomorrow and take it to DEQ for us and then return it. Now that's going the extra mile. Chuck Underwood Woodchuck Computers 2311 Pacific Ave Forest Grove, OR 97116 (503) 359-5851 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Browning" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation > Still more local choices, yea, verily, a plethora of choices!! > > bob "pick one, any one, and you will probably come out okay!!" > browning > > Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > > > I enthusiastically recommend Stan Couch at Affordable Automotive. > > Stan is an excellent mechanic and absolutely ethical. > > > > Dick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 17:01:43 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B11gFj037587 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:01:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111010141.SNOT24714.out010.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:01:41 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:01:39 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <5956D22C-636C-11D9-AD16-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:01:41 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Corrupting the media X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:01:43 -0000 Steven, The statement, "anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed" is so broad that it is necessarily untrue. Perhaps there are areas of public life where it may be true, but it is not uniform nor absolute. For example, grovenet is a modest form of media. The people who post here have a variety of outlooks, and most of them post what they truly feel, i.e. they can be called "honest". The grovenet media is generally "honest" as a result. And when it comes to getting a reference for an automobile mechanic or vet or whatever, the "honest" media tends to favor the "honest" business. In these cases, those who want to succeed, and are willing to give honest product for honest prices, will benefit from an honest media. Only those who wish to shortchange their trading partners will benefit from a corrupt media. For that reason, I tend to distrust those who attempt to corrupt the media, or who intentionally spread false statements. David On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 09:22 AM, Steven wrote: > Nope. Exactly what I said. > Anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. FDR managed to > downplay his handicap by corrupting the media. > What I am suggesting is that you can't call the governemnt facist and > use 'corruption of the media' as the 'sign' of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:06 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > > On Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Steven wrote: > >> Communism needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Christianity needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> Budweiser needs to corrupt the media to succeed. >> et al. >> > > Are you suggesting that we are better served by an honest media? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03@comcast.net Mon Jan 10 19:53:32 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B3rVmS075268 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005011103532601500ncq0be>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:26 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:53:28 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050110183132.42091.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:32 -0000 ...by Dan Rather? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they say, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe Lincoln) said similar things, too. What amazes me is that people are still fooled. From robert@vannattabros.com Mon Jan 10 20:17:53 2005 Received: from hestia.email.starband.net (hestia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.131]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B4HqDN080149 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by hestia.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B4HKbZ028157 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:17:44 -0500 Message-ID: <07ca01c4f794$c93487a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:18:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:17:53 -0000 CBS made their report today on ratherbiased. Mostly concluded that the Bush fiasco was a result of incompetent staff (for of whom were fired) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > ...by Dan Rather? > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Eric Canon > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they say, you > can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the > time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe > Lincoln) said similar things, too. > > What amazes me is that people are still fooled. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 10 20:26:47 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B4Qk5G081909 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:26:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB6FB01A for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:26:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:26:24 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f795$b8b9d230$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0B4Qk5G081909 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:26:47 -0000 Yep! You are absolutely right, Steven! A lie is a lie no matter who says it. The difference is that one is a newsman and his staff members who are out of work, and the other is a President who commands the most powerful military force in the world. One mislead people and might have gotten higher ratings and a bigger salary. The other murdered many thousands of people, trashed the reputation and economy of a great nation and then strutted around on an aircraft carrier deck proclaiming himself a hero. And foolish people applauded him. I believe that such tactics will eventually fail. The concern is what history shows us: many people die, and an entire country is often destroyed in the process. So far the people are dying. The reputation of our nation as a peacemaker in the world has been utterly destroyed. How far behind is the destruction of the nation itself? Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- ...by Dan Rather? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they say, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe Lincoln) said similar things, too. What amazes me is that people are still fooled. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canonmetals@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:28:35 2005 Received: from web53902.mail.yahoo.com (web53902.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.212]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0B4SZoY082161 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 93357 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 04:28:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=q1fSvLnV1YqCDVeULtAt8bz/J/Upf/Qqwxx2aNlaCvsc9IxOODItW9SprCJ9FkKsp6Shu1Wcxgq2BOCLUhTxmwiJcuYxszo7YOl2JyMvGhoEYP5ZEHvwzrU8vwBOsPNzee+CB9drlg31iax+4QpnT+3ZBjPG1Spw9W2jCd0js+k= ; Message-ID: <20050111042829.93355.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:28:29 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:28:29 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:28:36 -0000 Let's compare Dan rather to the guy who was paid off with our tax dollars. Dan Rather was profoundly embarrassed by what happened. He was contrite. He defended his story and then he had to eat crow when it was proved false. It hurt him personally when he had to back track. You could tell he felt it deeply. This other guy tried to defend what he did. There was no contrition. He would never have said anything had it not come out. There was no integrity demonstrated. Rather, on the other hand, demonstrated integrity. Another opinion from only me, Steven, so take it how ever you will: I believe Dan Rather was the victim of a plant. I think the Bush camp planted that "scoop". I can't prove it. It may never come out. But that's how this Bush group operates IMHO. All the signs are there. A Carl Rove plant. --- Steven wrote: > ...by Dan Rather? > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Eric Canon > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! > ! > > > That's the silver lining... ultimately, such > tactics fail. As they say, you > can fool some of the people all the time, and > all of the people some of the > time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the > time. Bob Dylan (or Abe > Lincoln) said similar things, too. > > What amazes me is that people are still fooled. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:32:01 2005 Received: from web53904.mail.yahoo.com (web53904.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.214]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0B4W0nF082754 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 9141 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 04:31:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FPL2/lDLcbwWZ7dWi2qLgiEwHJp0etFF7o8pPZ7DmR8XpyCunS7cx4Z6/u+yz1o6k4XzsERy6inYWaURkiK9eOEm0ZOOobif1uGQu/QAGadOD9aJEQL/WE1EHI8wbR5qtcSigq7BRh8r2hMB5id1JCaLyqE7k2JVBgXRwaYvp6o= ; Message-ID: <20050111043155.9139.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:31:55 PST Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:31:55 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <07ca01c4f794$c93487a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:32:01 -0000 Sort of like those privates who, all by themselves, violated the prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay? Or the swift boat vets who smeared Kerry? Wouldn't have come from the White House. Oh no! --- Robert VanNatta wrote: > CBS made their report today on ratherbiased. > Mostly concluded that the > Bush fiasco was a result of > incompetent staff (for of whom were fired) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:53 PM > Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! > ! > > > > ...by Dan Rather? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > > Behalf Of Eric Canon > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! > ! ! > > > > > > That's the silver lining... ultimately, such > tactics fail. As they say, > you > > can fool some of the people all the time, and > all of the people some of > the > > time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL > the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe > > Lincoln) said similar things, too. > > > > What amazes me is that people are still > fooled. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 10 20:32:56 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B4WugD082923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4002952F for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:33 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000101c4f796$9515b780$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <07ca01c4f794$c93487a0$0300a8c0@WinProxy> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0B4WugD082923 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:32:57 -0000 Robert wrote: CBS made their report today on ratherbiased. Mostly concluded that the Bush fiasco was a result of incompetent staff (for of whom were fired) ----------------------------- I thought they did agree that Mr. Rather shared in the blame, but since he had already announced his resignation and it had been accepted, they weren't going to accelerate his departure. After all, they need to line up a replacement. Heaven forbid the network risk losing market share with an empty anchor chair just because one of their newsmen pulled the same sort of underhanded twisting of the facts that had been the theme of the campaign. It was wrong. If he was involved, he should go, sooner than later as far as I am concerned, but I don't have to answer to the stockholders. Unfortunately, the President will probably remain . Ron D'Eau Claire From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Mon Jan 10 20:40:05 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B4e4eD084357 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:40:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111044003.YMMO28388.out014.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:40:03 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: GroveNet@rdrop.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:39:54 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501102039.54725.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:40:03 -0600 Cc: Subject: [Grovenet] Digest settings X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:40:05 -0000 In response to a user request, I've increased the minimum size of a digest before a collection of posts is sent out to those who receive their GroveNet fix in digest form. You may or may not find that GroveNet gives you indigestion, but that's another issue ... At any rate, if the minimum is not reached, a daily digest will be sent out anyway. If this is a problem for anyone, please let me know. I don't know how many of you are set up to receive mail in digest format. ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From robert@vannattabros.com Mon Jan 10 21:47:59 2005 Received: from artemis.email.starband.net (artemis.email.starband.net [148.78.247.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B5lxcX097757 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: from binladen (vsat-148-63-130-233.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.130.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by artemis.email.starband.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B6dl5D022939 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:39:53 -0500 Message-ID: <082e01c4f7a1$5606d460$0300a8c0@WinProxy> From: "Robert VanNatta" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <000101c4f796$9515b780$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:49:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:47:59 -0000 It is not completely apparent from the news reports the direct blame of Rather. I've looked at both the Yahoo article and the NYtimes article. ---and it would seem that he is more the mouth of CBS than the brains. Mapes is the real bozo in the deal. She is the one that was calling the Kerry campaign and leaking the story to them before it even went on the air.---and the one that developed the story. The problem with rather is that he has been slamming anyone and everybody who wasn't out in left field for 30 years. This isn't apparent to you'll that live in left field because its a perspective that you share, but it is and has been obvious to those who don't share that perspective, and to them it is just one more thing, and with the political right being the growing side of politics--tired old leftist news tilt just doesn't have the viewer draw it used to. My dislike for rather long predated Bush. I think it was 20 years ago that I quit looking at his newscasts because I simply can't stand the guy. Just looking at his beady eyed picture makes by blood pressure go up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:32 PM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > Robert wrote: > CBS made their report today on ratherbiased. Mostly concluded that the > Bush fiasco was a result of > incompetent staff (for of whom were fired) > ----------------------------- > > I thought they did agree that Mr. Rather shared in the blame, but since he > had already announced his resignation and it had been accepted, they weren't > going to accelerate his departure. After all, they need to line up a > replacement. Heaven forbid the network risk losing market share with an > empty anchor chair just because one of their newsmen pulled the same sort of > underhanded twisting of the facts that had been the theme of the campaign. > > It was wrong. If he was involved, he should go, sooner than later as far as > I am concerned, but I don't have to answer to the stockholders. > > Unfortunately, the President will probably remain . > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03@comcast.net Mon Jan 10 21:51:47 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B5plYp098612 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:51:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005011105514201300t7quue>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:51:42 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:51:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200501102039.54725.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:51:48 -0000 http://tinyurl.com/4vjd6 From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 22:28:28 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B6SRNR005759 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:28:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111062826.PYNP8290.out004.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:28:26 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:28:25 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:28:26 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:28:28 -0000 You have to wonder if someone put that there intentionally, or if it just accidentally fell off of someone's truck. LOL David On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 09:51 PM, Steven wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/4vjd6 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 22:50:53 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B6oqvZ009831 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:50:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111065051.XBNU28025.out001.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:50:51 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:50:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050111043155.9139.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: <2165FF43-639D-11D9-A8C1-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:50:51 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:50:53 -0000 No Eric, that would involve a conspiracy theory. We must believe that war has the sort of effect on enlisted personnel, so that they will take action that is against the direction of their superiors. Ooops, correct that. The White House decided that when the United States was threatened by somwone, then the rules no longer apply to anyone they choose. As Gonzales wrote: "new paradigm" of a war on terrorism "renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48446-2005Jan4.html So, why are the soldiers bothered with this legal action at all? It obviously is based upon word from the top. Read that as the Oval Office. David On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 08:31 PM, Eric Canon wrote: > Sort of like those privates who, all by themselves, violated the > prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay? > > Or the swift boat vets who smeared Kerry? > > Wouldn't have come from the White House. Oh no! > From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 22:51:59 2005 Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B6pwBB010068 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:51:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111065157.VPRY24714.out010.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:51:57 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:51:56 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <004501c4f806$4526a7f0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> Message-Id: <48E48447-639D-11D9-A8C1-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:51:57 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:51:59 -0000 On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:52 AM, allnutt wrote: > Point well stated Steven. > > When people don't trust the government and they don't trust the media > it is a situation ripe for unrest. Ideal is when you can trust both. > Okay is when you can trust one or the other. Bad is when you can trust > neither. Worst is when they both conspire against the populace. > > What I really don't like is that this administration believes as you > do. That anybody needs to corrupt the media to succeed. So they are > progressing along with that belief. > I believe the opposite. To truly be a success you have to not corrupt > the media along the way. To truly be a success you need an impartial > media declare you successful. Otherwise all your accolades are > meaningless. > > Katie Well said. David From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 22:55:36 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B6tZUN010722 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111065535.XCAW28025.out001.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:55:35 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:55:34 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050110183132.42091.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:55:34 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:55:38 -0000 On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Eric Canon wrote: > That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they > say, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the > people some of the time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the > time. Bob Dylan (or Abe Lincoln) said similar things, too. > > What amazes me is that people are still fooled. > Eric, You are amazed? Perhaps you should consider an aphorism attributed to H. L. Mencken. "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people." David From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 22:57:19 2005 Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B6vHjH011080 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111065716.XCFF28025.out001.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:57:16 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:57:16 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Famous Landmarks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050110183853.C3BBFE5BCB@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-Id: <072C5C6B-639E-11D9-A8C1-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:57:16 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:57:19 -0000 On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 10:38 AM, Jeanne Levy wrote: > Haven't posted anything in a long time, but Morelli brought back to > mind John Morelli, an Italian farmer out on "South Rd.", actually west > (maybe a little southwest) of Gaston. > He had a small farm with a swimming hole. Lots of kids tried that out > on hot August days. > John was quite a character. We would see him (almost) every Sunday at > the old St. Johns Catholic Church in Gaston. He would visit with my > father after mass. Dad read the Sunday paper in the car while waiting > for the rest of his family. (He was Baptist.) I can see someone like > him walking the fields in his bare feet, even if he's not the one > you're speaking of. > He made his own wine, too, and still had quite an Italian accent. In > the 1960s, in a "hick town" like Gaston, that was quite exotic. : ) > Jeanne, I believe the road is named for him. I wish I had met him. David From Oberzil@aol.com Mon Jan 10 23:05:12 2005 Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B75BMj012939 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:05:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Oberzil@aol.com) Received: from Oberzil@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.1e0.33079200 (4362) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:04:59 -0500 (EST) From: Oberzil@aol.com Message-ID: <1e0.33079200.2f14d49b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:04:59 EST Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock To: grovenet@rdrop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:05:12 -0000 http://london.craigslist.org/car/54883761.html From jo.david@verizon.net Mon Jan 10 23:29:00 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B7Sx60017229 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111072855.LGNG1106.out003.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:28:55 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:28:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1e0.33079200.2f14d49b@aol.com> Message-Id: <72EB03E8-63A2-11D9-A8C1-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:28:55 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:29:00 -0000 Oops, somebody dropped the ball. David On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 11:04 PM, Oberzil@aol.com wrote: > http://london.craigslist.org/car/54883761.html > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ron@cobi.biz Mon Jan 10 23:40:35 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0B7eYOv019504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89CA294E0 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:40:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:40:11 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000901c4f7b0$cb4d92e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <082e01c4f7a1$5606d460$0300a8c0@WinProxy> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0B7eYOv019504 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:40:35 -0000 No argument with not wanting the extremists on either side around. Bottom line is that the ends don't justify the means. Maybe Rather was just the mouth, but as the public persona, I've read they carry a lot of weight about how the stories are assembled. A news researcher and writer can get a big boost in their career and pay if the talking face and producers like their work. The truth of his involvement may never be known. The comment I was referring to was something I heard on the radio news today. It was just that since he had already resigned, the network wasn't naming him specifically in regards to the bogus story. I'm pretty hard on the President because I think he deserves it, but I still worry that the result will be that we swing as far the other direction eventually - and that's just as bad as far as I'm concerned. Ha! Your description of your reaction to Rather's image reminds me of myself in regards to ... Uh... You know who.... Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Robert VanNatta Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:49 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! It is not completely apparent from the news reports the direct blame of Rather. I've looked at both the Yahoo article and the NYtimes article. ---and it would seem that he is more the mouth of CBS than the brains. Mapes is the real bozo in the deal. She is the one that was calling the Kerry campaign and leaking the story to them before it even went on the air.---and the one that developed the story. The problem with rather is that he has been slamming anyone and everybody who wasn't out in left field for 30 years. This isn't apparent to you'll that live in left field because its a perspective that you share, but it is and has been obvious to those who don't share that perspective, and to them it is just one more thing, and with the political right being the growing side of politics--tired old leftist news tilt just doesn't have the viewer draw it used to. My dislike for rather long predated Bush. I think it was 20 years ago that I quit looking at his newscasts because I simply can't stand the guy. Just looking at his beady eyed picture makes by blood pressure go up. From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 01:56:22 2005 Received: from web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.116]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0B9uLbB044536 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:56:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 17053 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 09:49:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tnpork8sys0EnEU52DnGbiPiBjMeE2079TLMwxOyeUAoa27jGJ8KJCbbTnggu8hjsCPfoDMhnSHMlop59jg7uWd0/irir09dZpMOVRCz0XLMLPmsv2KrevsM5LI815UjE4WY0LZ9g1b2MJDYG6H3yAYrUaoxq9mF1dot8oXrmrA= ; Message-ID: <20050111094935.17051.qmail@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.177.40] by web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:49:35 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:49:35 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000701c4f767$886e2af0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:56:22 -0000 Just so those who were curious know "the rest of the story". My Pathfinder was in the dealer shop when I sent the original post making everyone aware of what I consider to be a problem concerning the check engine light and DEQ. It cost me another $260, they replaced 2 sensors and it did pass DEQ. That was not really my point of my post, the point was to bring about awareness, but it was the outcome. I have made a list of all the mechanic recommendations though and I appreciate having them. Vickie --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Wow! > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Chuck Underwood > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:55 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation > > > I second Jim at Jim's Automotive. > > I took my wife's van in this morning. Every 2 years > it fails > DEQ...consistently. We take it to Jim's and he > 'tweaks' it until it passes. > He even volunteered to take it to DEQ for us this > morning, however they were > closed today so he dropped it off at my wife's work > and is going to pick it > up from her work tomorrow and take it to DEQ for us > and then return it. Now > that's going the extra mile. > > Chuck Underwood > Woodchuck Computers > 2311 Pacific Ave > Forest Grove, OR 97116 > (503) 359-5851 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Browning" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mechanic Recommendation > > > > Still more local choices, yea, verily, a plethora > of choices!! > > > > bob "pick one, any one, and you will probably come > out okay!!" > > browning > > > > Dick La Jeunesse wrote: > > > > > I enthusiastically recommend Stan Couch at > Affordable Automotive. > > > Stan is an excellent mechanic and absolutely > ethical. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 11 07:40:01 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BFe0MH016876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F6AB003 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:42 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000201c4f7f3$c7d587b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050111094935.17051.qmail@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0BFe0MH016876 Subject: [Grovenet] Somehting to Think About... X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:40:02 -0000 ...Next trip to Wal-Mart or Home Depot, the two largest importers of foreign-made retail goods into the USA. ------------------------------------- Report: U.S. Lost 1.5 Mln Jobs to China in 1989-2003: ...The study estimates that imports from China displaced 1.659 million jobs between 1989 and 2003, while exports to that country generated only 199,000 additional U.S. jobs...report author and EPI senior international trade economist Robert Scott said... "The assumptions we built our trade relationship with China on have proved to be a house of cards. Everyone knew we would lose jobs in labor-intensive industries like textiles and apparel, but we thought we could hold our own in the capital-intensive, high-tech arena," ... computer, electronic, and semi-conductor sectors have seen China-related losses as well, the report said. "It is hard to overstate the challenges posed by this export behemoth," the report said. Full story: http://tinyurl.com/3weg8 --------------------------------------- Is it Wal-Mart or Home Depot's fault? I don't think so. They are just businesses doing what they are encouraged to do to satisfy public demand for cheaper goods. Still, there's not much "right" about the picture either. Ron D'Eau Claire From canonmetals@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 07:57:55 2005 Received: from web53904.mail.yahoo.com (web53904.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.214]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0BFvsBw020427 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 94248 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 15:57:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=UJuNQx/c6lmA6VCUKiaxymFvioJOtgcHtXvS9p33zOd2SIuyy4RGLSQmnOg/ZrVi4U4i2SzPU1oQq0cq+y9TAlyqhmyuG2hnREK+gqgxbJvBxXJAzlvB5l2EtU1Y1AE2zCsyk8McVXA6p6zQBllQyf/90cV3XX8enpVkMYyTNFg= ; Message-ID: <20050111155749.94246.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:57:48 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:57:48 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:57:55 -0000 A case can be made either way. But I no longer believe that provided with factual evidence I can change someone else's mind. When I was growing up people who read the bible literally were widely seen as "over the edge". Now they're in the White House! Times sure do change! I must be getting old. --- David Morelli wrote: > You are amazed? Perhaps you should consider an > aphorism attributed to > H. L. Mencken. > "No one ever went broke underestimating the > intelligence of the > American people." > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 08:22:16 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BGMFSG026182 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allnutt@verizon.net) Received: from laptop1K ([4.11.49.116]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050111162214.TRBU8290.out004.verizon.net@laptop1K> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:22:14 -0600 Message-ID: <002f01c4f7f9$f02e73b0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> From: "allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:23:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.49.116] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:22:13 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:22:16 -0000 Ouch! Katie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Beware of falling rock > http://tinyurl.com/4vjd6 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03@comcast.net Tue Jan 11 09:43:32 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BHhWc9044358 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005011117432701300053g9e>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:43:27 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:43:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050111155749.94246.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:43:33 -0000 Depends on where you get your factual evidence. I was listening to 620 and the guy on there had an old news story from 2000 completely bass ackwards. Then he went on to call Bush, "eater of the dead" for about a half hour. So entertaining. Then there was the article about the skin head rally here in PDX. Turns out the skinheads did a no show. The flier mentioned no particular group by name. Could it have been a scam by the religious group to get their name out? Eric, since you mention being a member of a church, I will read your sentence as: When I was growing up people who read the bible literally, were widely seen as "over the edge". rather than When I was growing up people who read the bible, literally were widely seen as "over the edge". -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:58 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! A case can be made either way. But I no longer believe that provided with factual evidence I can change someone else's mind. When I was growing up people who read the bible literally were widely seen as "over the edge". Now they're in the White House! Times sure do change! I must be getting old. --- David Morelli wrote: > You are amazed? Perhaps you should consider an > aphorism attributed to > H. L. Mencken. > "No one ever went broke underestimating the > intelligence of the > American people." > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie@oregonmta.org Tue Jan 11 09:56:59 2005 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BHuv2u049029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (69-30-9-40.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.9.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j0BHucYJ020340 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:56:47 -0500 Message-ID: <002d01c4f806$e89b7190$6401a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:56:37 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:57:00 -0000 Actually, it was the Circus King, Barnum of Barnum & Bailey! (before = your time Steven) Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steven=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! !=20 ...by Dan Rather? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Canon Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they = say, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some = of the time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or = Abe Lincoln) said similar things, too. What amazes me is that people are still fooled. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 11 10:13:09 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BID8KW053075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C17629532 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:13:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:12:44 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f809$291c4850$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050111155749.94246.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0BID8KW053075 Subject: [Grovenet] Through the Eye of the Needle (WAS: Weirder every day ! ! ! ! ) X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:13:09 -0000 Eric wrote: But I no longer believe that provided with factual evidence I can change someone else's mind. When I was growing up people who read the bible literally were widely seen as "over the edge". Now they're in the White House! Times sure do change! I must be getting old. -------------------------------- I'm not so sure anything has changed except you and I and everyone else has gotten older Eric. When we were younger, the common belief was that science had the answers. After all, the factual statements in most religious texts obviously didn't make much "sense", such as the age of the earth when faced with the obvious existence of creatures pre-dating "creation". Notice that I used "belief". That's the key. We "believed" that science could fill in the gaps. It is the job of science to disclose the "inner workings" of our universe. And it's done a good job. One of the things that we've learned over the past several decades is that science has just barely "scratched the surface" of the task. There has been a huge disillusionment with "science", from its inability to solve world hunger to producing world peace. Science wasn't supposed to wrest our cans of hair spray from our eager hands, it was supposed to make them safe for the Ozone layer. Science wasn't supposed to let us look at real-time pictures of horror from half way around the world, it was supposed to provide us with a life of peaceful leisure and "plenty" for everyone. Science was never supposed to expose us to a bewildering array of very expensive drugs to cure ills we never knew existed while telling us that the drugs themselves may kill us. Of course, any scientist will tell you that it was never supposed to do all of those things, but that's the story the general public got from the media since before I was born, and that's going back a ways now! Any military field commander will tell you that no one is more religious or prays harder than someone frightened for their life, and over the years people have become very frightened indeed. The promise of America has failed to materialize. First we could blame the nasty Soviets and the cold war. But here it is a decade and more since America was the last great superpower and we find ourselves in a world that is not the shining utopia we always imagined it would be, nor can we any longer believe that less-fortunate people are so because they deserve to be. The masses in India often make better business people, doctors, engineers and philosophers than we do. How then, can we hold onto the image of the destitute almost-inhuman masses huddled in starvation on the banks of the Ganges deserving their sorry fate by their lack of common intelligence? No, they are simply people like ourselves who happen to be facing a challenge that we aren't facing - yet. And that story is repeating all over the Earth. The awful truth is that there's no intrinsic advantage to being white, male or even simply being American. Others, men and women alike, with skin that is dark brown, black, red, or yellow born in any corner of the Earth may actually be better at what we do than we are. The truth is that "manifest destiny" may have been a lie and its grandson, the idea that America deserves to "lead" the world, may also be a lie. You know, to most Americans "lead" is just a euphemism for "rule". If we aren't in charge, then who is? Why, God, of course. I was schooled in the engineering and the scientific method. I've always considered myself a profoundly religious person. My favorite instructors and professors in the scientific method were also very religious people. They aren't the ones swinging from one extreme to the other. It's all the people looking for the easy answer, looking for science to show them the way to avoid having to fit through the eye of the needle. They expected science to show them a short-cut into Heaven or enlightenment or Nirvana. I'm sure of what my devoutly religious science teachers would say to them. They'd say, "God won't fix your hair spray either." But who is listening? Ron D'Eau Claire From rab@jurislex.com Tue Jan 11 11:16:43 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BJGh8I068247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:16:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2468E364003; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:16:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E42615.7060801@jurislex.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:16:37 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! References: <002d01c4f806$e89b7190$6401a8c0@700x> In-Reply-To: <002d01c4f806$e89b7190$6401a8c0@700x> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:16:44 -0000 Actually, it was Abraham Lincoln!! (Must not have been before Steven's time!!)

http://tinyurl.com/54ren

bob "my mama didn't raise no fools" browning

Ed Davie wrote:
Actually, it was the Circus King, Barnum of Barnum & Bailey! (before your time Steven)
Ed  Davie

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steven 
  To: Forest Grove local interests list 
  Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! 


  ...by Dan Rather?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On
  Behalf Of Eric Canon
  Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:32 AM
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! !


  That's the silver lining... ultimately, such tactics fail. As they say, you
  can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the
  time, but you CAN'T fool ALL the people ALL the time. Bob Dylan (or Abe
  Lincoln) said similar things, too.

  What amazes me is that people are still fooled.

  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet@rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet@rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 11 11:18:51 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BJIo5a068757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D57B00C for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:26 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000401c4f812$566d25f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <002f01c4f7f9$f02e73b0$6501a8c0@laptop1K> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0BJIo5a068757 Subject: [Grovenet] The Value of Military Service? X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:18:51 -0000 We've discussed here the pluses and minuses of universal military service. Of course, we now have a generation of young adults in the work force or who are looking for work who never faced compulsory military service. With that in mind, my eye caught this story on an internet newsletter: Companies recruiting discharged troops Abridged: HoustonChronicle.com DES MOINES, IOWA - Former soldiers, including those returning from Iraq or Afghanistan with disabilities, are finding that their military background can help them get jobs in civilian companies. Maytag Corp., for example, has an aggressive recruiting program. Home Depot began Operation Career Front and Toyota North America started its Hire A Hero program in the past few years. Companies say it's a win for them because they get high-quality workers. "They have great discipline. They have great technical skills. They understand how to follow orders and follow procedures," said Art Learmonth, president of Maytag Services. About 5,000 companies are registered with the Marine For Life program, which helps soldiers find work in civilian businesses after leaving the service, said Maj. Carolyn Dysart, spokeswoman for the program. "There's been a real wave of support for the military. It's wonderful since the war on terrorism began. These are all outgrowths of that," she said. Almost 40 companies have signed on to a separate program that hires disabled veterans. The list includes Colonial Life Insurance, and the corporate office of Time Warner Cable, a unit of Time Warner Inc. ---------------------------- Discipline. Ability to follow orders. Great Technical Skills. Sounds like these companies are finding things in the vets that they don't find in "civilians". Ron D'Eau Claire From isis23ra@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 12:14:00 2005 Received: from web54504.mail.yahoo.com (web54504.mail.yahoo.com [68.142.225.174]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0BKDxxE082607 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isis23ra@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 28919 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 20:13:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4HISyS1Q8R6R90fx5l/vkKcmmB5MN3Mu/xcHKEqo5su5w2Z4xPwrVY1v6QTQX2S1ERMCJ12Ba2jJ/QyWTAP4J7Ouyfchdr0aLC7XO5DFrrft/A28VH4uHjNsQSCO//feEj34MHwGYgZs0ArA6a9ihPO9P+wbkU/rwhguQhPRh7M= ; Message-ID: <20050111201354.28917.qmail@web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.188.142] by web54504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:13:54 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:13:54 -0800 (PST) From: Alana Graham Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Somehting to Think About... To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000201c4f7f3$c7d587b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:01 -0000 Wal-Mart and Home Dept are also large Republican and Bush campaign contributors. Another reason not to shop there as far as i am concerned. Alana --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > ...Next trip to Wal-Mart or Home Depot, the two > largest importers of > foreign-made retail goods into the USA. > > ------------------------------------- > > Report: U.S. Lost 1.5 Mln Jobs to China in > 1989-2003: ...The study estimates > that imports from China displaced 1.659 million jobs > between 1989 and 2003, > while exports to that country generated only 199,000 > additional U.S. > jobs...report author and EPI senior international > trade economist Robert > Scott said... "The assumptions we built our trade > relationship with China on > have proved to be a house of cards. Everyone knew we > would lose jobs in > labor-intensive industries like textiles and > apparel, but we thought we > could hold our own in the capital-intensive, > high-tech arena," ... computer, > electronic, and semi-conductor sectors have seen > China-related losses as > well, the report said. > > "It is hard to overstate the challenges posed by > this export behemoth," the > report said. > > Full story: > http://tinyurl.com/3weg8 > > --------------------------------------- > > Is it Wal-Mart or Home Depot's fault? I don't think > so. They are just > businesses doing what they are encouraged to do to > satisfy public demand for > cheaper goods. > > Still, there's not much "right" about the picture > either. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From isis23ra@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 12:14:58 2005 Received: from web54509.mail.yahoo.com (web54509.mail.yahoo.com [68.142.225.179]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0BKEvIE082869 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isis23ra@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21435 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 20:14:50 -0000 Message-ID: <20050111201450.21433.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.188.142] by web54509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:49 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: Alana Graham Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <41E42615.7060801@jurislex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:58 -0000 Wasn't it Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute." Alana __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From edavie@oregonmta.org Tue Jan 11 12:37:01 2005 Received: from mails11.megamailservers.com (mails11.megamailservers.com [216.251.41.211]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BKb0Sr089006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:37:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edavie@oregonmta.org) X-Authenticated-User: edavie.oregonmta.org Received: from 700x (69-30-8-225.pxd.easystreet.com [69.30.8.225]) (authenticated bits=0) by mails11.megamailservers.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j0BKan6U007954 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:36:58 -0500 Message-ID: <008b01c4f81d$492c3330$6401a8c0@700x> From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050111201450.21433.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:36:47 -0800 Organization: OMTA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:37:01 -0000 You're correct. I stand corrected! Ed Davie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alana Graham=20 To: Forest Grove local interests list=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Wasn't it Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute." =20 Alana __________________________________=20 Do you Yahoo!?=20 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem@pacificu.edu Tue Jan 11 12:45:17 2005 Received: from MCKINLEY.ad.pacificu.edu (mckinley.ad.pacificu.edu [64.59.226.247]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BKjH2W093191 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:45:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steelem@pacificu.edu) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Manifest Destiny Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:45:16 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Grovenet] Through the Eye of the Needle (WAS: Weirder every day !! ! ! ) Thread-Index: AcT4CTqekg2cJrHPT/CTTJCxfUF97QAFNT8A From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0BKjH2W093191 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:45:18 -0000 Ron wrote "The truth is that 'manifest destiny' may have been a lie and its grandson, the idea that America deserves to 'lead' the world, may also be a lie. You know, to most Americans 'lead is just a euphemism for 'rule'. If we aren't in charge, then who is? Why, God, of course."......... In my experience, we have all bumped into some bland version of Manifest Destiny somewhere in our schooling. I had occasion a couple of years ago to do some research for a book and encountered the original, published in 1885. Here's the scoop (sorry, the footnote references would not translate to e-mail...if anyone wants them, contact me privately)...note that some of his rhetoric could come straight from the pages of _Mein Kampf_, including his Aryan references: "One simply cannot study the American experience without encountering the famous phrase "Manifest Destiny." James Treat offers a succinct version of this doctrine: Manifest Destiny "states that God has destined the Christian world to conquer the rest of creation in His name." Coined by New York journalist John L. O'Sullivan in 1845, it came to be used widely in the press in subsequent decades, reaching its apotheosis in an 1885 article by John Fiske that appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine. Fiske's rhetoric, typical for much of American nineteenth century discourse, unites or reflects many of the cultural threads being traced in this study. He assumes that men who are self-governing must be allowed to work together "on a grand scale." Small groups, in his view, with only primitive governance, are "perpetually at war" among themselves; we should read here Fiske's code for the nineteenth century stereotype of "Indians." Smugly, he goes on to add that the "industrial phase" of civilization causes men to be "less inclined to destroy life or to inflict pain. . . ." -an amazing claim in light of the devastation brought to the lives of countless Native Americans through the advanced technologies of America's industrial capacity. He is consistent, however, as he goes on to propose that world peace will only be assured by gradually concentrating the "preponderant military strength into the hands of the most pacific communities." Fiske sees these communities as seldom showing awareness of the danger of "outside attacks, whether from surrounding barbarism or from neighboring civilizations of lower types." He uses imperial Rome as an example of the proper kind of response "against menacing barbarism"-and reveals the awareness that theirs was "murderous work, but it had to be done by some one [sic] before you could expect to have great and peaceful civilizations like our own." Speaking of "frontier disturbances" Fiske asks that his fellow Americans should sympathize with Roman military history. Using rhetoric that echoes Heinrish Himmler's 1943 Posen speech to his SS comrades, Fiske admires this difficult task of the Romans as they faced the "giant barbaric force" of the Gauls: "This great work was as thoroughly done as anything that was ever done in human history, and that we ought to be thankful to Caesar for it every day that we live." He rhapsodizes about the Teutonic Knights, and notes with admiration that the "Aryan people, after attaining a high stage of civilization in Europe, are at last beginning to recover their ancient homestead" -another example of murderous work that he might also admire were he to have seen the Aryan results sixty years after he wrote this article. He reveals concern over Muslim threats and the "asiaticization of European life. . . ." He is not without hope, however, for Americans are the inheritors of "the indomitable spirit of English liberty" that has prevailed wherever "men of English race have set their feet as masters." In language containing echoes of his praise for Rome, Fiske argues that the "conquest of the North American continent by men of the English race was unquestionably the most prodigious event in the political annals of mankind." In a final paroxysm of praise, Fiske sees "the United States as stretching from pole to pole. . . . Indeed, only when such a state of things has begun to be realized can civilization, as sharply demarcated from barbarism. . . . Only then can the world be said to have become truly Christian." In 1889, Fiske maintained a consistent viewpoint when he argued, "The world is so made that it is only in that way [violence] that the higher races have been able to preserve themselves and carry on their progressive work." Fiske's work is a prime example of the discourse of the larger culture at work, one based on dominion, might, racism, and, apparently, what amounts to sacred violence-the "murderous work" that leads to a "truly Christian" world. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab@jurislex.com Tue Jan 11 13:06:45 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BL6jAt099136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:06:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB5C6DC017; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:06:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E43FE0.3000101@jurislex.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:06:40 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Davie , Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! References: <20050111201450.21433.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> <008b01c4f81d$492c3330$6401a8c0@700x> In-Reply-To: <008b01c4f81d$492c3330$6401a8c0@700x> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:06:46 -0000 I don't know if you need to apologize, Ed. Looks to me like you were "suckered" into that one!!! (Yuck, yuck, yuck!!) bob "you had to be there" browning Ed Davie wrote: >You're correct. I stand corrected! >Ed Davie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alana Graham > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! > > > Wasn't it Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born > every minute." > > Alana > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet@rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 11 14:07:33 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0BM7X1L014779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D686B022 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Manifest Destiny Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:07:06 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000501c4f829$e65404b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0BM7X1L014779 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:07:34 -0000 Thanks Mike! You offer a good example of how complex the meaning of a term can be if one pays scholarly attention to the minutiae. "Manifest Destiny" was brought to me in American History classes as the concept that the Christian people of the American nation had a God-given right to take control of the North American Continent from "Sea to Shining Sea" - the Atlantic to the Pacific. That was the justification for pushing aside the uncivilized heathens to do "God's work". Strictly a guess, but I would not be surprised to learn that it was dug up by the promoters to explain the 'investment' in the Louisiana Purchase. Reading your summary, it seems to me that the definition is quite good as it applies to the control of all of North America by "white men". It was that use of the term I was alluding to. I thought it had died a quiet death in the last half of the 20th Century, but I've been reading of its use more frequently again in writing's about the USA's 'rightful role' in world affairs according to some - writings that chillingly remind me of the Nazi's in the 1930's. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Mike Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:45 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Manifest Destiny Ron wrote "The truth is that 'manifest destiny' may have been a lie and its grandson, the idea that America deserves to 'lead' the world, may also be a lie. You know, to most Americans 'lead is just a euphemism for 'rule'. If we aren't in charge, then who is? Why, God, of course."......... In my experience, we have all bumped into some bland version of Manifest Destiny somewhere in our schooling. I had occasion a couple of years ago to do some research for a book and encountered the original, published in 1885. Here's the scoop (sorry, the footnote references would not translate to e-mail...if anyone wants them, contact me privately)...note that some of his rhetoric could come straight from the pages of _Mein Kampf_, including his Aryan references: "One simply cannot study the American experience without encountering the famous phrase "Manifest Destiny." James Treat offers a succinct version of this doctrine: Manifest Destiny "states that God has destined the Christian world to conquer the rest of creation in His name." Coined by New York journalist John L. O'Sullivan in 1845, it came to be used widely in the press in subsequent decades, reaching its apotheosis in an 1885 article by John Fiske that appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine. Fiske's rhetoric, typical for much of American nineteenth century discourse, unites or reflects many of the cultural threads being traced in this study. He assumes that men who are self-governing must be allowed to work together "on a grand scale." Small groups, in his view, with only primitive governance, are "perpetually at war" among themselves; we should read here Fiske's code for the nineteenth century stereotype of "Indians." Smugly, he goes on to add that the "industrial phase" of civilization causes men to be "less inclined to destroy life or to inflict pain. . . ." -an amazing claim in light of the devastation brought to the lives of countless Native Americans through the advanced technologies of America's industrial capacity. He is consistent, however, as he goes on to propose that world peace will only be assured by gradually concentrating the "preponderant military strength into the hands of the most pacific communities." Fiske sees these communities as seldom showing awareness of the danger of "outside attacks, whether from surrounding barbarism or from neighboring civilizations of lower types." He uses imperial Rome as an example of the proper kind of response "against menacing barbarism"-and reveals the awareness that theirs was "murderous work, but it had to be done by some one [sic] before you could expect to have great and peaceful civilizations like our own." Speaking of "frontier disturbances" Fiske asks that his fellow Americans should sympathize with Roman military history. Using rhetoric that echoes Heinrish Himmler's 1943 Posen speech to his SS comrades, Fiske admires this difficult task of the Romans as they faced the "giant barbaric force" of the Gauls: "This great work was as thoroughly done as anything that was ever done in human history, and that we ought to be thankful to Caesar for it every day that we live." He rhapsodizes about the Teutonic Knights, and notes with admiration that the "Aryan people, after attaining a high stage of civilization in Europe, are at last beginning to recover their ancient homestead" -another example of murderous work that he might also admire were he to have seen the Aryan results sixty years after he wrote this article. He reveals concern over Muslim threats and the "asiaticization of European life. . . ." He is not without hope, however, for Americans are the inheritors of "the indomitable spirit of English liberty" that has prevailed wherever "men of English race have set their feet as masters." In language containing echoes of his praise for Rome, Fiske argues that the "conquest of the North American continent by men of the English race was unquestionably the most prodigious event in the political annals of mankind." In a final paroxysm of praise, Fiske sees "the United States as stretching from pole to pole. . . . Indeed, only when such a state of things has begun to be realized can civilization, as sharply demarcated from barbarism. . . . Only then can the world be said to have become truly Christian." In 1889, Fiske maintained a consistent viewpoint when he argued, "The world is so made that it is only in that way [violence] that the higher races have been able to preserve themselves and carry on their progressive work." Fiske's work is a prime example of the discourse of the larger culture at work, one based on dominion, might, racism, and, apparently, what amounts to sacred violence-the "murderous work" that leads to a "truly Christian" world. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ron@cobi.biz Tue Jan 11 16:27:40 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C0RdnI050309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:27:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (69-30-98-70.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9229EB008 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:27:14 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f83d$7a289530$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-reply-to: <000501c4f829$e65404b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0C0RdnI050309 Subject: [Grovenet] A (Radiation) Sign of the Times X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:27:40 -0000 'Radiation-proof' RVs to launch soon in U.S. Tue Jan 11, 2005 04:12 PM ET CHICAGO, Jan 11 (Reuters) - Two private U.S. companies have designs on building the first luxury recreational vehicle that could withstand nuclear radiation... "Many people enjoy the RV lifestyle, but we also live in an era when people have some level of fear about terrorism," Parliament Chief Executive Harvey Mitchell said in a statement. "These concerns about terrorism are linked to states where people with RVs like to travel." The vehicles, costing from $1.2 million to $2 million, will be introduced Wednesday at the Tampa Super RV Show in Florida... Occupants could live for several days in the custom-built motor coach, said Daniel Ayres, president and CEO of Homeland Defense, a privately held company based in Newton, Texas, which makes mobile medical and command center vehicles for universities, county and state governments, and the U.S. Department of Defense. ----------------------------------------- Full Story http://tinyurl.com/4qykm I notice it's a Texas Company. Guess those Texans won't have to worry about missing out on the economic boom provided by our "war on terror". It's been a l-o-n-g since I've seen a house on the market equipped with a family bomb shelter in the back yard. Maybe any that are left will go for a big premium now. I wonder, is Duct Tape around the windows really good enough for the few of us who lack a shelter or an extra couple of million to spend on one of those RV's? Hmmm... Will Medicare cover the cost of one? Ron D'Eau Claire From canonmetals@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 16:39:58 2005 Received: from web53904.mail.yahoo.com (web53904.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.214]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0C0dw47053508 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 93641 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 00:39:52 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=H5PhwWkJr4NT3UW6izKrr6h4eq9rjyyyRNUoJt8ietkGQ1O+ESFZQpErxIG9Z6fFuNiKIpO4gthE91hRo+JB0MNRXxWwPHL8QObwCk3l1dh6eUZ2juvTpAJt9PENqbATvB3Fj39ShxVsDq2McmPDqhbfEQVKDA9aLe2IGeWmzpY= ; Message-ID: <20050112003952.93639.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:52 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:52 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:39:58 -0000 That's fine Steven. Whatever works for you. --- Steven wrote: > Depends on where you get your factual evidence. > I was listening to 620 and the guy on there had > an old news story from 2000 > completely bass ackwards. Then he went on to > call Bush, "eater of the dead" > for about a half hour. So entertaining. > Then there was the article about the skin head > rally here in PDX. Turns out > the skinheads did a no show. The flier > mentioned no particular group by > name. Could it have been a scam by the > religious group to get their name > out? > Eric, since you mention being a member of a > church, I will read your > sentence as: > When I was growing up people who read the > bible literally, were widely > seen as "over the edge". > rather than > When I was growing up people who read the > bible, literally were widely > seen as "over the edge". > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Eric Canon > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:58 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! > ! > > > A case can be made either way. But I no longer > believe that provided with factual evidence I > can > change someone else's mind. When I was growing > up > people who read the bible literally were widely > seen as "over the edge". Now they're in the > White > House! Times sure do change! > > I must be getting old. > > --- David Morelli wrote: > > You are amazed? Perhaps you should consider > an > > aphorism attributed to > > H. L. Mencken. > > "No one ever went broke underestimating the > > intelligence of the > > American people." > > > > David > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From chuck@chuckriley.org Tue Jan 11 19:38:52 2005 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C3cqIR090982 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:38:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuck@chuckriley.org) Received: from katieshp (c-24-21-38-152.client.comcast.net[24.21.38.152]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005011203333001300t2umme>; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:33:30 +0000 From: "Chuck Riley" To: , "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:33:27 -0800 Organization: Chuck Riley for State Representative Message-ID: <003101c4f857$80966680$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050109001250.55090.qmail@web81410.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0C3cqIR090982 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chuck@chuckriley.org, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:38:52 -0000 Vickie, If you write to the Governor please copy me and I will ask him to expedite it. Send it to me at: Representative Chuck Riley 900 Court St. NE H-487 Salem, OR 97301 Office:      1-503-986-1429 Cell:        503-936-5791 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bonnie Combs Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Vickie, Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the past on a medical insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff person to light a fire under the responsible agency . It may take a while but it works. Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) Vickie Madeoneup wrote: ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would like to hear what you all think of it. We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. Our check engine light was on, has been since February. They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light is on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. I think that's absurb! The check engine light will come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal Moore told me this is one of their biggest complaints and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even if your emissions come out ok. My situation was the light came on in February, it cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told them a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine light on. But that became a problem when we needed to pass DEQ. DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check the newer vehicles but it seems like something better ought to be figured out. Love to hear your thoughts. Vickie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 20:49:13 2005 Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C4nCwN005653 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112044912.DDPF8290.out004.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:49:12 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:49:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: David Morelli To: grovenet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4D00E0C4-6455-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:49:11 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:49:14 -0000 I received this e-mail yesterday, and after confirming the story with the owner, I have received permission to post it to Grovenet. > Lucy and I were walking down to the Hair House where Amber works to > get my hair trimmed early this afternoon. Right after we crossed 19th > Avenue on Filbert St. 2 large dogs ran up behind Lucy and attacked > her. I screamed for help, threw sticks at the dogs etc. I let go of > Lucy's leash so she could run away and she ran across the street to > the corner of another house. A lady > ran out of the house I was nearest two and we were both yelling at > the dogs to go home, bad dog, etc. The finally ran back across 19th > and away. Poor Lucy was cowering a corner at the house where she > was. She was so scared. I went and got her and took her down to the > Hair House so I could check her over. When I found a bloody torn spot > behind her left leg I decided to walk her over to her vet which is > only a couple more blocks. > > She had to be sedated so they could thoroughly examine her and sew her > up. She hadn't come to enough so that they would let her come home so > she is spending the night at their hospital. I've been upset all > afternoon. I'd like to find those dogs and have them arrested. I > drove around the neighborhood but couldn't find them anywhere. The > bets office called Washington County and reported it but I don't know > if they came out or not. I'm going to call them tomorrow to see if > they even looked for the bad dogs. The dogs came from behind on Filbert as they approached Pacific after coming from 19th. The event happened on the sidewalk, the dogs jumped Lucy from both sides from behind without any bark or warning as Lucy walked in the heel position with her owner. They were a black dog and a brown dog. They were heavy dogs, short and stocky, possibly pit bull mix. One appeared to be nursing or recently finished nursing. Anyone having more information please reply. We would like to remove this hazard. David From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 21:05:35 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C55YIb008944 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112050533.NKJG28388.out014.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:05:33 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:05:33 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Somehting to Think About... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000201c4f7f3$c7d587b0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: <964ABA3C-6457-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:05:33 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:05:35 -0000 On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 07:39 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > ...Next trip to Wal-Mart or Home Depot, the two largest importers of > foreign-made retail goods into the USA. > ... > Is it Wal-Mart or Home Depot's fault? I don't think so. They are just > businesses doing what they are encouraged to do to satisfy public > demand for cheaper goods. > > Still, there's not much "right" about the picture either. > > Ron D'Eau Claire There is a rather simple economic process that addresses this problem, and provides the benefits of the free market. Unfortunately, there are political reasons that this free market process is not allowed to relax this economic stress. The rate of exchange between the Chinese Yuan and the American Dollar is not at equilibrium, and both the US and China are involved in keeping it that way. If the free market were actually working the Yuan would climb relative to the Dollar until the trade between our countries achieved rough parity. Sales of American goods and services would roughly match purchase of Chinese goods and services. Who benefits most now? Those who sell imports and those who purchase them. Who loses the most now? Those who earn their income from the production of local goods and services. The question may be, "how many cheap t-shirts do you need to purchase at Walmart to compensate for being unemployed?" David From NoSpam03@comcast.net Tue Jan 11 21:08:22 2005 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C58LPv009534 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from NoSpam03@comcast.net) Received: from office (c-24-21-33-197.client.comcast.net[24.21.33.197]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005011205081501200ospcce>; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:08:15 +0000 From: "Steven" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:08:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4D00E0C4-6455-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:08:22 -0000 These dogs were on the north side of 19th? I know of several pit bull like dogs that are housed on 18th between Filbert and Hawthorne. There have been reports of a brown lab that chases runners on 18th in that same area. But that's all south of 19th. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:49 PM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! I received this e-mail yesterday, and after confirming the story with the owner, I have received permission to post it to Grovenet. > Lucy and I were wal From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 21:16:24 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C5GNGj011121 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112051622.GMFL28362.out005.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:16:22 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:21 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Weirder every day ! ! ! ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <190EDFB6-6459-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:16:22 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:16:24 -0000 On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:43 AM, Steven wrote: > Depends on where you get your factual evidence. > I was listening to 620 and the guy on there had an old news story from > 2000 completely bass ackwards. Then he went on to call Bush, "eater of > the dead" for about a half hour. So entertaining. > Actually "the left side of the dial" sounded like a mirror of the "right side" of the dial. If it didn't attract your interest, that may be because it is so similar to the Rush, Lars and others. > Then there was the article about the skin head rally here in PDX. > Turns out the skinheads did a no show. The flier mentioned no > particular group by name. Could it have been a scam by the religious > group to get their name out? > Try the web site of the Tualatin Valley Skinheads, Read the leader, "What the Hell Happened to Us?" http://www.nukeisrael.com/ David From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 21:19:59 2005 Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C5Jxcb011773 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112051958.NMTH28388.out014.verizon.net@verizon.net> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:19:58 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:19:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <99C29AFC-6459-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:19:58 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:20:00 -0000 The owner and dog were walking North on Filbert from the South. They had already crossed 19th and were unaware of the dogs prior to the attack. So there is no way of knowing if the two dogs had been following for any distance. David On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:08 PM, Steven wrote: > These dogs were on the north side of 19th? I know of several pit bull > like > dogs that are housed on 18th between Filbert and Hawthorne. There have > been > reports of a brown lab that chases runners on 18th in that same area. > But > that's all south of 19th. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:49 PM > To: grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! > > > I received this e-mail yesterday, and after confirming the story with > the owner, I have received permission to post it to Grovenet. > >> Lucy and I were wal > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From mbliss@agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 11 21:39:16 2005 Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C5dFBH015887 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbliss@agora.rdrop.com) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([4.5.59.241]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112053914.GBV1106.out003.verizon.net@[192.168.0.101]> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:39:14 -0600 From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Through the Eye of the Needle (WAS: Weirder every day ! ! ! ! ) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:38:57 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000001c4f809$291c4850$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> In-Reply-To: <000001c4f809$291c4850$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501112138.57517.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.5.59.241] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:39:14 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:39:16 -0000 Thank you, Ron, this is truly a masterpiece of writing and insight. I suspect that quite apart from what he may think he is doing, Bush is, in fact, putting the final nails in the coffin of the "American Century." We are increasingly seen as being off on some wild tangent abroad, and with the economy likely on the verge of crashing for all but the very wealthy, we will probably soon be entering the Eurasian Century, since that's where all the money seems to be flowing. Our version of "Manifest Destiny" will then be but a footnote in history texts. On Tuesday 11 January 2005 10:12, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > I'm not so sure anything has changed except you and I and everyone else has > gotten older Eric. When we were younger, the common belief was that science > had the answers. After all, the factual statements in most religious texts > obviously didn't make much "sense", such as the age of the earth when faced > with the obvious existence of creatures pre-dating "creation". > > Notice that I used "belief". That's the key. We "believed" that science > could fill in the gaps. It is the job of science to disclose the "inner > workings" of our universe. And it's done a good job. One of the things that > we've learned over the past several decades is that science has just barely > "scratched the surface" of the task. > > There has been a huge disillusionment with "science", from its inability to > solve world hunger to producing world peace. Science wasn't supposed to > wrest our cans of hair spray from our eager hands, it was supposed to make > them safe for the Ozone layer. Science wasn't supposed to let us look at > real-time pictures of horror from half way around the world, it was > supposed to provide us with a life of peaceful leisure and "plenty" for > everyone. Science was never supposed to expose us to a bewildering array of > very expensive drugs to cure ills we never knew existed while telling us > that the drugs themselves may kill us. > > Of course, any scientist will tell you that it was never supposed to do all > of those things, but that's the story the general public got from the media > since before I was born, and that's going back a ways now! > > Any military field commander will tell you that no one is more religious or > prays harder than someone frightened for their life, and over the years > people have become very frightened indeed. The promise of America has > failed to materialize. First we could blame the nasty Soviets and the cold > war. But here it is a decade and more since America was the last great > superpower and we find ourselves in a world that is not the shining utopia > we always imagined it would be, nor can we any longer believe that > less-fortunate people are so because they deserve to be. The masses in > India often make better business people, doctors, engineers and > philosophers than we do. How then, can we hold onto the image of the > destitute almost-inhuman masses huddled in starvation on the banks of the > Ganges deserving their sorry fate by their lack of common intelligence? > > No, they are simply people like ourselves who happen to be facing a > challenge that we aren't facing - yet. And that story is repeating all over > the Earth. > > The awful truth is that there's no intrinsic advantage to being white, male > or even simply being American. Others, men and women alike, with skin that > is dark brown, black, red, or yellow born in any corner of the Earth may > actually be better at what we do than we are. > > The truth is that "manifest destiny" may have been a lie and its grandson, > the idea that America deserves to "lead" the world, may also be a lie. You > know, to most Americans "lead" is just a euphemism for "rule". > > If we aren't in charge, then who is? Why, God, of course. > > I was schooled in the engineering and the scientific method. I've always > considered myself a profoundly religious person. My favorite instructors > and professors in the scientific method were also very religious people. > They aren't the ones swinging from one extreme to the other. It's all the > people looking for the easy answer, looking for science to show them the > way to avoid having to fit through the eye of the needle. They expected > science to show them a short-cut into Heaven or enlightenment or Nirvana. > > I'm sure of what my devoutly religious science teachers would say to them. > > They'd say, "God won't fix your hair spray either." > > But who is listening? > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From jo.david@verizon.net Tue Jan 11 21:41:15 2005 Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C5fEu6016303 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:41:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jo.david@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([4.11.50.118]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112054113.NCPV21228.out007.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:41:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:41:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Value of Military Service? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: David Morelli To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000401c4f812$566d25f0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> Message-Id: <91971ED8-645C-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.11.50.118] at Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:41:13 -0600 Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:41:15 -0000 On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > We've discussed here the pluses and minuses of universal military > service. > > ... > Companies recruiting discharged troops > While in the service we use to look at the "Best Bet Yet, Hire a Vet" signs, and respond with "... sure, hire the vet, they have already demonstrated that they can do anything with nothing! And, they are willing to work long hours at dangerous jobs for low pay." David From canonmetals@yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 21:48:13 2005 Received: from web53909.mail.yahoo.com (web53909.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.219]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0C5mCru017754 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 71492 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 05:48:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dFmCXiNVRHZquRrHEfFIdUF8DNLX9RlNo8C5K0KJAjYKM7arm0P48Hu7au1UvFuy9pIJArXVpIDmPasiqficEC4Pepk0uN90J4TAaKudv8Hd6665zq5vibXTBC/oM99fT3f2qClPHnzzarCfaMLn9jeL6p5Y/gXPuNz1Lem0jqc= ; Message-ID: <20050112054807.71490.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:48:06 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:48:06 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Grovenet] Good for business... X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:48:13 -0000 Straight Goods Saturday, December 11, 2004 Hyping terror for profit and power BBC documentary says that Cheney and Rumsfeld extended the Cold War in the 1970s with same fearmongering techniques they used to justify 2003 attack on Iraq. by Thom Hartmann What if there really was no need for much - or even most - of the Cold War? What if, in fact, the Cold War had been kept alive for two decades based on phony WMD threats? What if, similarly, the War On Terror was largely a scam, and the administration was hyping it to seem larger-than-life? What if our "enemy" represented a real but relatively small threat posed by rogue and criminal groups well outside the mainstream of Islam? What if that hype was done largely to enhance the power, electability, and stature of George W. Bush and Tony Blair? And what if the world was to discover the most shocking dimensions of these twin deceits - that the same men promulgated them in the 1970s and today? It happened. The myth-shattering event took place in England the first three weeks of October, when the BBC aired a three-hour documentary written and produced by Adam Curtis, titled "The Power of Nightmares." If the emails and phone calls many of us in the US received from friends in the UK - and debate in the pages of publications like The Guardian are any indicator, this was a seismic event, one that may have even provoked a hasty meeting between Blair and Bush a few weeks later. According to this carefully researched and well-vetted BBC documentary, Richard Nixon, following in the steps of his mentor and former boss Dwight D. Eisenhower, believed it was possible to end the Cold War and eliminate fear from the national psyche. The nation need no longer be afraid of communism or the Soviet Union. Nixon worked out a truce with the Soviets, meeting their demands for safety as well as the US needs for security, and then announced to Americans that they need no longer be afraid. In 1972, President Richard Nixon returned from the Soviet Union with a treaty worked out by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the beginning of a process Kissinger called "détente." On June 1, 1972, Nixon gave a speech in which he said, "Last Friday, in Moscow, we witnessed the beginning of the end of that era which began in 1945. With this step, we have enhanced the security of both nations. We have begun to reduce the level of fear, by reducing the causes of fear-for our two peoples, and for all peoples in the world." But Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford's Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated? Rumsfeld and Cheney began a concerted effort - first secretly and then openly - to undermine Nixon's treaty for peace and to rebuild the state of fear and, thus, reinstate the Cold War. And these two men - 1974 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Ford Chief of Staff Dick Cheney - did this by claiming that the Soviets had secret weapons of mass destruction that the president didn't know about, that the CIA didn't know about, that nobody but them knew about. And, they said, because of those weapons, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors for whom these two men would one day work. "The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld explained to America in 1976. "They've been busy in terms of their level of effort; they've been busy in terms of the actual weapons they 've been producing; they've been busy in terms of expanding production rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their institutional capability to produce additional weapons at additional rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those weapons. Year after year after year, they've been demonstrating that they have steadiness of purpose. They're purposeful about what they're doing." The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld's position a "complete fiction" and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone. But Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted Americans to believe there was something nefarious going on, something we should be very afraid of. To this end, they convinced President Ford to appoint a commission including their old friend Paul Wolfowitz to prove that the Soviets were up to no good. According to Curtis' BBC documentary, Wolfowitz's group, known as "Team B," came to the conclusion that the Soviets had developed several terrifying new weapons of mass destruction, featuring a nuclear-armed submarine fleet that used a sonar system that didn't depend on sound and was, thus, undetectable with our current technology. The BBC's documentarians asked Dr. Anne Cahn of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency during that time, her thoughts on Rumsfeld's, Cheney's, and Wolfowitz's 1976 story of the secret Soviet WMDs. Here's a clip from a transcript of that BBC documentary: "Dr ANNE CAHN, Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, 1977-80: They couldn't say that the Soviets had acoustic means of picking up American submarines, because they couldn't find it. So they said, well maybe they have a non-acoustic means of making our submarine fleet vulnerable. But there was no evidence that they had a non-acoustic system. They're saying, 'we can't find evidence that they're doing it the way that everyone thinks they're doing it, so they must be doing it a different way. We don't know what that different way is, but they must be doing it.' "INTERVIEWER (off-camera): Even though there was no evidence. "CAHN: Even though there was no evidence. "INTERVIEWER: So they're saying there, that the fact that the weapon doesn't existŠ "CAHN: Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means that we haven't found it." The moderator of the BBC documentary then notes: " What Team B accused the CIA of missing was a hidden and sinister reality in the Soviet Union. Not only were there many secret weapons the CIA hadn't found, but they were wrong about many of those they could observe, such as the Soviet air defenses. The CIA were convinced that these were in a state of collapse, reflecting the growing economic chaos in the Soviet Union. Team B said that this was actually a cunning deception by the Soviet régime. The air-defense system worked perfectly. But the only evidence they produced to prove this was the official Soviet training manual, which proudly asserted that their air-defense system was fully integrated and functioned flawlessly. The CIA accused Team B of moving into a fantasy world." Nonetheless, as Melvin Goodman, head of the CIA's Office of Soviet Affairs, 1976-87, noted in the BBC documentary, "Rumsfeld won that very intense, intense political battle that was waged in Washington in 1975 and 1976. Now, as part of that battle, Rumsfeld and others, people such as Paul Wolfowitz, wanted to get into the CIA. And their mission was to create a much more severe view of the Soviet Union, Soviet intentions, Soviet views about fighting and winning a nuclear war." Although Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld's assertions of powerful new Soviet WMDs were unproven - they said the lack of proof proved that undetectable weapons existed - they nonetheless used their charges to push for dramatic escalations in military spending to selected defense contractors, a process that continued through the Reagan administration. But, trillions of dollars and years later, it was proven that they had been wrong all along, and the CIA had been right. Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Wolfowitz lied to America in the 1970s about Soviet WMDs. Not only do we now know that the Soviets didn't have any new and impressive WMDs, but we also now know that they were, in fact, decaying from within, ripe for collapse any time, regardless of what the US did - just as the CIA (and anybody who visited Soviet states - as I had - during that time could easily predict). The Soviet economic and political system wasn't working, and their military was disintegrating. As arms-control expert Cahn noted in the documentary of those 1970s claims by Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Rumsfeld: "I would say that all of it was fantasy. I mean, they looked at radars out in Krasnoyarsk and said, 'This is a laser beam weapon,' when in fact it was nothing of the sort. ... And if you go through most of Team B's specific allegations about weapons systems, and you just examine them one by one, they were all wrong." "INTERVIEWER: All of them? "CAHN: All of them. "INTERVIEWER: Nothing true? "CAHN: I don't believe anything in [Wolfowitz's 1977] Team B was really true." But the neocons said it was true, and organized a group - The Committee on the Present Danger - to promote their worldview. The Committee produced documentaries, publications, and provided guests for national talk shows and news reports. They worked hard to whip up fear and encourage increases in defense spending, particularly for sophisticated weapons systems offered by the defense contractors for whom neocons would later become lobbyists. And they succeeded in recreating an atmosphere of fear in the United States, and making themselves and their defense contractor friends richer than most of the kingdoms of the world. The Cold War was good for business, and good for the political power of its advocates, from Rumsfeld to Reagan. Similarly, according to this documentary, the War On Terror is the same sort of scam, run for many of the same reasons, by the same people. And by hyping it - and then invading Iraq - we may well be bringing into reality terrors and forces that previously existed only on the margins and with very little power to harm us. Curtis' documentary suggests that the War On Terror is just as much a fiction as were the super-WMDs this same group of neocons said the Soviets had in the 70s. He suggests we've done more to create terror than to fight it. That the risk was really quite minimal (at least until we invaded Iraq), and the terrorists are - like most terrorist groups - simply people on the fringes, rather easily dispatched by their own people. He even points out that Al Qaeda itself was a brand we invented, later adopted by bin Laden because we'd put so many millions into creating worldwide name recognition for it. Watching "The Terror of Nightmares" is like taking the Red Pill in the movie The Matrix. It's the story of idealism gone wrong, of ideologies promoted in the US by Leo Strauss and his followers (principally Wolfowitz, Feith, and Pearle), and in the Muslim world by bin Laden's mentor, Ayman Zawahiri. Both sought to create a utopian world through world domination; both believe that the ends justify the means; both are convinced that "the people" must be frightened into embracing religion and nationalism for the greater good of morality and a stable state. Each needs the other in order to hold power. Whatever your plans are for tonight or tomorrow, clip three hours out of them and take the Red Pill. Get a pair of headphones (the audio is faint), plug them into your computer, and visit an unofficial archive of the Curtis' BBC documentary at the Information Clearing House website. (The third hour of the program, in a more viewable format, is also available here.) For those who prefer to read things online, an unofficial but complete transcript is on this Belgian site. [http://www.silt3.com/index.php?id=573] But be forewarned: You'll never see political reality - and certainly never hear the words of the Bush or Blair administrations - the same again. Thom Hartmann is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk show. His most recent books are The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights, We The People: A Call To Take Back America, The Edison Gene, and What Would Jefferson Do?: A Return To Democracy. From benmonjay@earthlink.net Tue Jan 11 21:54:23 2005 Received: from smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0C5sMFW018865 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benmonjay@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.122.55] (helo=monjayb) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CobSW-0001Js-Rp for grovenet@rdrop.com; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:54:22 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=GX7Sq16jcbBphyPpOYCs3jbquyzI7O5NEc+MUtMwXi29b/QjoQUcQsX3rK/YNMsh; Message-ID: <00d401c4f86b$27e82190$377af842@monjayb> From: "Benjamin Monjay" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <003101c4f857$80966680$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:54:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: a378c82b52402e7589cb21dbd10cbf767e972de0d01da940f56ffe0c7d0ff251768d22c0f356b7fb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.122.55 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Benjamin Monjay , Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:54:23 -0000 You might want to check your owners manual as well, working in the auto industry I know some of the rules. If the part that has failed is part of the emission control system, you have an extended warranty on those parts as required by Federal Emission regulations this applies if you are the original owner or a subsequent owner. The following is a list of parts that the manufacturer must warrent for 2 years or 24000 miles: EVAP Canister Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Assembly Catalytic Convertor Engine ECM and Power Supply Relay Electronic Feedback Controls, Sensors, Switches and Valves EVAP Canister Purge Valve Exhaust Manifold and Gaskets The Exhaust Pipe (Up to the Catalytic Converter) Fuel Filler Neck Restrictor Fuel Filler Cap and Gasket Fuel Injectors, Fuel Injector Lines and Gaskets and Pressure Regulator Fuel Tank Gravity Check Valve (Rollover valve) Knock Sensor MIL Light (Check Engine Light) OBD System Camshaft Adjuster OBD Data Link Connector Oxygen Sensor PCV Valve EVAP Leak Detection Pump Secondary Air Injection Pump and Associated Controls AND Emmision-Related Hoses, Gaskets, Clamps and other accessories used with the above listed components >From 24 months (24000) to 8 years (80000 miles) the following must be replaced free of charge: Catalytic converter Engine Electronic Control Module On Board Diagnostic Device ALL of these parts are protected by federal law. There may be some others not listed or that do not apply to your vehicle as this list is for Volkswagen of America/Audi of America. The one caveat is that you must ALWAYS have the scheduled maintenance done ON TIME. For most automakers this is within 10% on the milage stated in your manuals and you must have proof. If you purchased the vehicle used or are planning to, it is a good idea to have the vehicle "certifed" or make sure that you get all service records with the sale. And yes, there is a $10000 fine for tampering with the light. It's not a state law, it's a federal law. If anyone has questions, please don't hesitate to call me. I also have a list of all of the automakers phone numbers if you don't have a manual but you want to call them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Riley" To: ; "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > Vickie, > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I will ask him to expedite > it. > > Send it to me at: > > Representative Chuck Riley > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > Salem, OR 97301 > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Vickie, > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the past on a medical > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff person to light a fire > under the responsible agency . It may take a while but it works. > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. Our > check engine light was on, has been since February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 00:13:43 2005 Received: from web50908.mail.yahoo.com (web50908.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.128]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0C8Dglh043533 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:13:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 86185 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 08:06:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4BnjoCAGsQvCpZpU4Cb08wrOz4cB2h+iz00UKonzkLCbRKdW08+kRVZZ0qWRftjgYpgzhhJ7KZ/VPm9Erv0hC4/ysr3xn1AXqp5nH5/YLqA0J6ZQSNSYnfMn1TuLxsZpP6TFeaiwkGuUhLI8+mjuKuPt6IAsyFzU5wtYis+jB38= ; Message-ID: <20050112080656.86183.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.242.189.145] by web50908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:06:56 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) From: Krystof Zmudzinski Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: chuck@chuckriley.org, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <003101c4f857$80966680$6501a8c0@KatiesHP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:13:44 -0000 Mr. Riley, If you think that the requirement that the check- engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you introduce a legislature that would remove this requirement instead of providing political favors to your supporters? Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption from those biannual emissions checks altogether? You as a Democrat should be firm on those so called environmental issues. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Chuck Riley wrote: > Vickie, > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I > will ask him to expedite > it. > > Send it to me at: > > Representative Chuck Riley > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > Salem, OR 97301 > > Office:      1-503-986-1429 > Cell:        503-936-5791 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Vickie, > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > past on a medical > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff > person to light a fire > under the responsible agency . It may take a while > but it works. > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > Our > check engine light was on, has been since February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light > is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even > if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From robert@vannattabros.com Wed Jan 12 07:19:38 2005 Received: from web51604.mail.yahoo.com (web51604.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.209]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CFJbN2028096 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@vannattabros.com) Received: (qmail 48911 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 15:19:31 -0000 Message-ID: <20050112151931.48909.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.78.243.26] by web51604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:19:31 PST X-RocketYMMF: rvannatta Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:19:31 -0800 (PST) From: Robert VanNatta Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Value of Military Service? To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <91971ED8-645C-11D9-BC03-000393A7111C@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert@vannattabros.com, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:19:38 -0000 the corporate model and the military model are really the same model. -- Neither is functional if the grunts don't grunt on command. employees who lack the self discipline to do what they are told are of little value. --- David Morelli wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Ron > D'Eau Claire wrote: > > > We've discussed here the pluses and minuses of > universal military > > service. > > > > ... > > Companies recruiting discharged troops > > > > While in the service we use to look at the "Best Bet > Yet, Hire a Vet" > signs, and respond with "... sure, hire the vet, > they have already > demonstrated that they can do anything with nothing! > And, they are > willing to work long hours at dangerous jobs for low > pay." > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ron@cobi.biz Wed Jan 12 09:20:01 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CHK0Kh054306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2454929536 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:19:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:19:35 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f8ca$e6583840$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050112151931.48909.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0CHK0Kh054306 Subject: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:20:02 -0000 ...At last! US gives up search for Iraq WMD Intelligence officials have confirmed the US has stopped searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They say the chief US investigator, Charles Duelfer, is not planning to return to the country... Officials are still sifting through a mountain of documents and if they produce any leads, they say, they will be followed, but there is no expectation that the hunt will be revived. Story at: http://tinyurl.com/6nqe4 ----------------------------- So it's official: There was no reason for the USA to invade Iraq. It's no surprise to most people around here, of course, but it's nice to see it "official" anyway. It's curious that I don't see this story leading any of the US news services. It was the top story on the BBC news today. Ron D'Eau Claire From rab@jurislex.com Wed Jan 12 10:09:51 2005 Received: from smtp.easystreet.com (smtp.easystreet.com [69.30.22.10]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CI9o30065076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@jurislex.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (69-30-98-242.dv1sf.easystreet.com [69.30.98.242]) by smtp.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695166DC017; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E567E9.2030205@jurislex.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:09:45 -0800 From: Bob Browning Organization: Browning Law Offices, PC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Value of Military Service? References: <20050112151931.48909.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050112151931.48909.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:09:51 -0000 Even though I never served in the military, many of my family have, including my son (who is leaving for Iraq on Monday). There is a big difference in how many in the military control their "employees", knowing that they are in for a fixed term of years (or, as Rumsfeld has made it, for the duration!!). Part of the reason my son has moved up as fast and as far as he has in a downsized military that is otherwise still top heavy with brass is because he works with his men to have them buy on to the mission and he constantly counsels them as to what needs to be done, rather than just ordering them to do it under threat of very real punishment. And even that threat has been ameliorated a bit - can you imagine the punishment that would have been doled out to the line servicemen who refused to go on that fuel convoy if this had been the second ww!! bob "unbelievably proud - but a little nervous, too - father" browning Robert VanNatta wrote: >the corporate model and the military model are really >the same model. -- Neither is functional if the >grunts don't grunt on command. > >employees who lack the self discipline to do what they >are told are of little value. > > >--- David Morelli wrote: > > > > > From tosca@prodigy.net Wed Jan 12 11:57:04 2005 Received: from web81408.mail.yahoo.com (web81408.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.97]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CJv3iI092457 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:57:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tosca@prodigy.net) Message-ID: <20050112195657.89320.qmail@web81408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.242.189.165] by web81408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:56:57 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:56:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bonnie Combs Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050112080656.86183.qmail@web50908.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0000 Mr.Zmudzinski, I think it is not the test requirement that is bogus, but the way the test of that particular automobile is structured is bogus. What with all the problems people have in life today, perhaps Mr. Riley hasn't had time to delve into this requirement in depth. Unfortunately for all of us, there are only 24 hours in the day. I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. JMHO. But why do you say "socalled" environmental issues? Some jurisdictions report air quality improvement from this and other similar auto ooriented measures. Or do you believe they are bogus as well? Bonnie Krystof Zmudzinski wrote: Mr. Riley, If you think that the requirement that the check- engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you introduce a legislature that would remove this requirement instead of providing political favors to your supporters? Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption from those biannual emissions checks altogether? You as a Democrat should be firm on those so called environmental issues. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Chuck Riley wrote: > Vickie, > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I > will ask him to expedite > it. > > Send it to me at: > > Representative Chuck Riley > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > Salem, OR 97301 > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Vickie, > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > past on a medical > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff > person to light a fire > under the responsible agency . It may take a while > but it works. > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > Our > check engine light was on, has been since February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light > is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even > if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 12:20:15 2005 Received: from web50905.mail.yahoo.com (web50905.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CKKE2A097687 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:20:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 66494 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 20:20:09 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z/wD558WdOkYkbXmHlDfX7oLkNJqbYbvUP7jGJB752QBjRPdRSgfMGzQYl9hhprQZn2oh8UklVpJUJRg7jrhfjO/r6OVcezaTtgPz9JlIwqnmhKJIxRtDnqc8Fp6QYg2IevDcpFUy9qW95xOHEgEfs0YCTG0pQ0q8YsK0WhmRQw= ; Message-ID: <20050112202009.66491.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.136.2] by web50905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:20:08 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:20:08 -0800 (PST) From: Krystof Zmudzinski Subject: Re: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <000001c4f8ca$e6583840$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:20:15 -0000 I'm not going to argue about the validity of reasons for the Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned, this is a just and needed war and the reason for it are as convincing today as they were in 2001. I'd like to discuss media bias. First, I think it's unfair to use BBC to insinuate that US media outlets are hiding news that are bad for the Bush administration. I, for one, found the news you refer to this morning before 9am: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144143,00.html http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/index.html Second, BBC is one of the most anti-American news outlets second only to Al Jazeera. Its bias is so blatant that even some people in UK recognize it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/nbook09.xml#3 Lastly, the mantra that US media are somehow owned by conservatives is pretty tiring. From where I'm standing, they are pretty liberal. Unless, of course, Kucinich (or even Dean) is your guy. In that case, I have to say that even liberal media have to have some standards of objectivity. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > ...At last! > > US gives up search for Iraq WMD > > Intelligence officials have confirmed the US has > stopped searching for > weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. > > They say the chief US investigator, Charles Duelfer, > is not planning to > return to the country... > > Officials are still sifting through a mountain of > documents and if they > produce any leads, they say, they will be followed, > but there is no > expectation that the hunt will be revived. > > Story at: > http://tinyurl.com/6nqe4 > > ----------------------------- > > So it's official: There was no reason for the USA to > invade Iraq. > > It's no surprise to most people around here, of > course, but it's nice to see > it "official" anyway. > > It's curious that I don't see this story leading any > of the US news > services. > > It was the top story on the BBC news today. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com Wed Jan 12 12:36:07 2005 Received: from vwfs.com (mail.vwfs.com [63.174.218.66]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CKZplk001482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:36:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com) Received: from ([10.136.50.52]) by mail.vwfs.com with ESMTP id 133020024.8185398; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:35:09 -0600 Received: by usvcilvx001.afc.vw.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:34:37 -0600 Message-ID: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC915@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> From: "Monjay, Benjamin" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:34:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:36:08 -0000 Did you know that Florida does not even check vehicles for "Smog" requirements. They determined that the number of cars on the road that are OBD II compliant far outnumber the number of cars that don't have emission controls. Woth OBD II and III, which are required on ALL new vehicles sold in the USA, if the system breaks down to the point where you are heavilly polluting, the car will probably not run. -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Combs [mailto:tosca@prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:57 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck Mr.Zmudzinski, I think it is not the test requirement that is bogus, but the way the test of that particular automobile is structured is bogus. What with all the problems people have in life today, perhaps Mr. Riley hasn't had time to delve into this requirement in depth. Unfortunately for all of us, there are only 24 hours in the day. I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. JMHO. But why do you say "socalled" environmental issues? Some jurisdictions report air quality improvement from this and other similar auto ooriented measures. Or do you believe they are bogus as well? Bonnie Krystof Zmudzinski wrote: Mr. Riley, If you think that the requirement that the check- engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you introduce a legislature that would remove this requirement instead of providing political favors to your supporters? Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption from those biannual emissions checks altogether? You as a Democrat should be firm on those so called environmental issues. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Chuck Riley wrote: > Vickie, > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I > will ask him to expedite > it. > > Send it to me at: > > Representative Chuck Riley > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > Salem, OR 97301 > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Vickie, > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > past on a medical > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff > person to light a fire > under the responsible agency . It may take a while > but it works. > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > like to hear what you all think of it. > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > Our > check engine light was on, has been since February. > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that light > is > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > complaints > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you even > if > your emissions come out ok. > My situation was the light came on in February, it > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > them > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked it > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, the > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > to > pass DEQ. > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > the > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > ought to be figured out. > Love to hear your thoughts. > > Vickie > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** From krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 12:37:19 2005 Received: from web50902.mail.yahoo.com (web50902.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.122]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CKbJ2p001835 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 40335 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 20:37:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=x6Fl6ldZJHdJ5f0C1TL4gehz/4c+h6OO/nChWxt6PIgvbUIGJRy5DPXFuV589GkQV6X7dYaoJ/wxhD7tHDoObbKl+2XOGx32chSWpQkQdzvIXkBMyiPLkeh64Ado4VDYnjFrvVvgxGyLUImNKiti2/uIYy3bXUKBnZqhrhvtyWg= ; Message-ID: <20050112203713.40333.qmail@web50902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.136.2] by web50902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:37:13 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:37:13 -0800 (PST) From: Krystof Zmudzinski Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Tosca@prodigy.net, Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050112195657.89320.qmail@web81408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:37:20 -0000 You may have misunderstood me. I think you have a valid complaint. I really feel bad that you have to spend time and money on this bogus problem. Unfortunately, this is the price we all pay for government regulations that lack common sense. My problem was with Mr. Riley who seemed to be offering his help in circumventing the system. If the system is bad it should be changed for everybody and not just for a few chosen ones. As for emission testing, I think it is bogus to require cars that are still under warranty to go through the test. I'd like to see some statistics that show this is justified. Also, this test hurts poor people the most. They sometimes can't afford the cost of repairs which could be high (as you've found out.) So if Mr. Riley wants to pursue a worthy cause, scrap the whole system and let me pump my own gas. BTW, this whole emission business will get much worse. It seems that many people in Salem has bought this idea of humans causing global warming. They are considering even stricter standards. Please consider the price of (unnecessary) government regulation next time you complain about high unemployment in Oregon. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Bonnie Combs wrote: > Mr.Zmudzinski, > > I think it is not the test requirement that is > bogus, but the way the test of that particular > automobile is structured is bogus. What with all > the problems people have in life today, perhaps Mr. > Riley hasn't had time to delve into this requirement > in depth. > > Unfortunately for all of us, there are only 24 hours > in the day. > > I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. JMHO. > > But why do you say "socalled" environmental issues? > Some jurisdictions report air quality improvement > from this and other similar auto ooriented measures. > Or do you believe they are bogus as well? > > Bonnie > > Krystof Zmudzinski > wrote: > Mr. Riley, > > If you think that the requirement that the check- > engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you > introduce a legislature that would remove this > requirement instead of providing political favors to > your supporters? > > Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption > from those biannual emissions checks altogether? > > You as a Democrat should be firm on those so called > environmental issues. > > Krystof Zmudzinski > > --- Chuck Riley wrote: > > > Vickie, > > > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I > > will ask him to expedite > > it. > > > > Send it to me at: > > > > Representative Chuck Riley > > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > > Salem, OR 97301 > > > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > > > > Vickie, > > > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > > past on a medical > > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff > > person to light a fire > > under the responsible agency . It may take a while > > but it works. > > > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > > like to hear what you all think of it. > > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > > Our > > check engine light was on, has been since > February. > > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that > light > > is > > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > > complaints > > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you > even > > if > > your emissions come out ok. > > My situation was the light came on in February, it > > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > > them > > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked > it > > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, > the > > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > > to > > pass DEQ. > > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > > the > > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > > ought to be figured out. > > Love to hear your thoughts. > > > > Vickie > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced > search. > > Learn more. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ===== > http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ > > If there must be trouble let it be in my day, > that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net Wed Jan 12 12:50:53 2005 Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CKor2c005171 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:50:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net) Received: from [66.248.122.190] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CopS8-0002Kg-1j for grovenet@rdrop.com; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:50:52 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=KFHdNeg3R6rJomFWpbJjbK14MRc5pW6yXMIaheaVH3lN1ytWjGwn5nsMXYtevA18; Message-ID: <410-220051312205050829@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.57.0 (Windows) From: "Julie Larson" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:50:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 4b1a226b83a01e546e0051a616975009c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c260928bcf9112f4609575138cf0dc05a86a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.248.122.190 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: chopwoodcarrywater@earthlink.net, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:50:53 -0000 This is a terrible story. I have had similar problems when walking my dog. Does anyone have any good advice? Should one carry mace or pepper spray? I hate to do that, but I also don't want my dog to suffer Lucy's fate or worse. > [Original Message] > From: David Morelli > To: grovenet > Date: 1/11/2005 8:49:12 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: I'm soooo mad! > > I received this e-mail yesterday, and after confirming the story with > the owner, I have received permission to post it to Grovenet. > > > Lucy and I were walking down to the Hair House where Amber works to > > get my hair trimmed early this afternoon. Right after we crossed 19th > > Avenue on Filbert St. 2 large dogs ran up behind Lucy and attacked > > her. I screamed for help, threw sticks at the dogs etc. I let go of > > Lucy's leash so she could run away and she ran across the street to > > the corner of another house. A lady > > ran out of the house I was nearest two and we were both yelling at > > the dogs to go home, bad dog, etc. The finally ran back across 19th > > and away. Poor Lucy was cowering a corner at the house where she > > was. She was so scared. I went and got her and took her down to the > > Hair House so I could check her over. When I found a bloody torn spot > > behind her left leg I decided to walk her over to her vet which is > > only a couple more blocks. > > > > She had to be sedated so they could thoroughly examine her and sew her > > up. She hadn't come to enough so that they would let her come home so > > she is spending the night at their hospital. I've been upset all > > afternoon. I'd like to find those dogs and have them arrested. I > > drove around the neighborhood but couldn't find them anywhere. The > > bets office called Washington County and reported it but I don't know > > if they came out or not. I'm going to call them tomorrow to see if > > they even looked for the bad dogs. > > The dogs came from behind on Filbert as they approached Pacific after > coming from 19th. The event happened on the sidewalk, the dogs jumped > Lucy from both sides from behind without any bark or warning as Lucy > walked in the heel position with her owner. They were a black dog and > a brown dog. They were heavy dogs, short and stocky, possibly pit bull > mix. One appeared to be nursing or recently finished nursing. > > Anyone having more information please reply. We would like to remove > this hazard. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Lenahh@verizon.net Wed Jan 12 12:56:31 2005 Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CKuUY9006624 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Lenahh@verizon.net) Received: from bfu67 ([4.14.149.241]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050112205629.OYLA28362.out005.verizon.net@bfu67> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:56:29 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c4f8e9$352370c0$f1950e04@dslverizon.net> From: "Lena H Hendricks" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" References: <20050112202009.66491.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:56:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.14.149.241] at Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:56:24 -0600 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:56:31 -0000 Thank you. I agree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Krystof Zmudzinski" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... > I'm not going to argue about the validity of reasons > for the Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned, this is a > just and needed war and the reason for it are as > convincing today as they were in 2001. > > I'd like to discuss media bias. > > First, I think it's unfair to use BBC to insinuate > that US media outlets are hiding news that are bad > for the Bush administration. I, for one, found the > news you refer to this morning before 9am: > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144143,00.html > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/index.html > > Second, BBC is one of the most anti-American news > outlets second only to Al Jazeera. Its bias is so > blatant that even some people in UK recognize it: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/nbook09.xml#3 > > Lastly, the mantra that US media are somehow owned by > conservatives is pretty tiring. From where I'm > standing, they are pretty liberal. Unless, of course, > Kucinich (or even Dean) is your guy. In that case, I > have to say that even liberal media have to have some > standards of objectivity. > > Krystof Zmudzinski > > > --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > > > ...At last! > > > > US gives up search for Iraq WMD > > > > Intelligence officials have confirmed the US has > > stopped searching for > > weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. > > > > They say the chief US investigator, Charles Duelfer, > > is not planning to > > return to the country... > > > > Officials are still sifting through a mountain of > > documents and if they > > produce any leads, they say, they will be followed, > > but there is no > > expectation that the hunt will be revived. > > > > Story at: > > http://tinyurl.com/6nqe4 > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > So it's official: There was no reason for the USA to > > invade Iraq. > > > > It's no surprise to most people around here, of > > course, but it's nice to see > > it "official" anyway. > > > > It's curious that I don't see this story leading any > > of the US news > > services. > > > > It was the top story on the BBC news today. > > > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ===== > http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ > > If there must be trouble let it be in my day, > that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From canonmetals@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 13:09:35 2005 Received: from web53903.mail.yahoo.com (web53903.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.126]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CL9YeY010064 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from canonmetals@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 85995 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 21:09:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=v6unT/SC54jphWgkHjXbGVxP7QsGa82k4bvGzYAiaoBzUIVjGVBYIlTnm/hI14PLULqYiYdw3E224JF10ysiMxuKVgVdGek60/p+7CfVR0xEgYLZKrOHQayWU1QzCTjJqboc66o77qoGTpVkE7KU5IBbpPV6tM5VVL7FOnMh4Z0= ; Message-ID: <20050112210928.85993.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.5.122.168] by web53903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:09:28 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Canon To: grovenet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm tired of it, too, but it's where we're at folks!. X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:09:35 -0000 Is this about you, Mr Zmudzinski? AMERICA'S FINITE FUTURE? By Arianna Huffington Near the beginning of "Saturday Night Fever," John Travolta's Tony Manero, frustrated that his boss thinks he should save his salary instead of spending it on a new disco shirt, cries out, "F- - - the future!" To which his boss replies: "No, Tony, you can't f- - - the future. The future f- - -s you! It catches up with you and it f- - -s you if you ain't prepared for it!" Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but America has morphed into a nation of Tony Maneros - collectively dismissing the future. And nowhere is this mindset more prevalent than at the Bush White House, which is unwavering in its determination to ignore the future. The evidence is overwhelming. Everywhere you look, it's IOUs passed on to future generations. Record federal debt. Record foreign debt. Record budget deficits. Record trade deficits. And this attempt to f- - - the future is not limited to economics. You see the same attitude when it comes to energy policy, health care, education, Social Security and especially the environment - with the Bushies redoubling their efforts to make the world uninhabitable as fast as possible. (See their attempts to gut the Clean Air Act, gut the Clean Water Act, gut the Endangered Species Act, gut regulations limiting pollution from power plants.) And the even bigger problem? They don't see this as a problem. In fact, it actually all may be an essential part of the plan. If this last sentence doesn't make a wit of sense to you, then you are clearly not one of the 50 million Americans who believe in some form of End-Time philosophy, an extreme evangelical theology that embraces the idea that we are fast approaching the end of the world, at which point Jesus will return and carry all true believers - living and dead - up to heaven ("the Rapture"), leaving all nonbelievers on earth to face hellfire and damnation ("the Tribulation"). Christ and his followers will then return to a divinely refurbished earth for a thousand-year reign of peace and love. In other words, why worry about minor little details like clean air, clean water, safe ports and the safety net when Jesus is going to give the world an "Extreme Makeover: Planet Edition" right after he finishes putting Satan in his place once and for all? Keep in mind: This nutty notion is not a fringe belief being espoused by some street corner Jeremiah wearing a "The End Is Nigh!" sandwich board. End-Timers have repeatedly made the "Left Behind" series of apocalyptic books among America's best-selling titles, with over 60 million copies sold. And they have also spawned a mini-industry of imminent doomsday Web sites like ApocalypseSoon.org and Raptureready.com. The latter features a Rapture Index that, according to the site, acts as a "Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity" and a "prophetic speedometer" (the higher the number, the faster we're moving toward the Second Coming). For those of you keeping score, the Rapture Index is currently 152 - an off-the-chart mark of prophetic indicators. Now I'm not saying that Bush is a delusion-driven End-Timer (although he has let it be known that God speaks to - and through- him, and he believes "in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans"). But he and his crew are certainly acting as if that's the case. Take the jaw-dropping federal debt, which currently stands at $4.3 trillion. Just last month the Government Accountability Office released a report that found that Bush's economic policies "will result in massive fiscal pressures that, if not effectively addressed, could cripple the economy, threaten our national security, and adversely affect the quality of life of Americans in the future." And what was the administration's reaction to this frightening assessment? Vice President Cheney shrugged, took a hearty swig of the End-Time Kool-Aid, and announced that the administration wants another round of tax cuts. Basically a big f- - - you. Then there's our trade deficit, which ballooned to a record $165 billion in the third quarter of 2004, when imports exceeded exports by 54 percent. Thanks to this imbalance, America is racking up a staggering $665 billion in additional foreign debt every year - that's $5,500 for every U.S. household - and placing our future economic security in the hands of others. Here is Bush's response to this daunting prospect: "People can buy more United States products if they're worried about the trade deficit." Sounds like he's really got it under control. I guess after the Rapture, debts of all kinds will be forgiven. The White House is promoting a similar "What Me Worry?" attitude with our live-for-the-moment energy policy. America currently spends $13 million per hour on foreign oil - a number that will only increase as U.S. oil production peaks within the next five years just as consumption by industrializing nations doubles over the next 25 years. So is the president pushing for a long-overdue increase in mileage standards or launching an all-out effort to break our dependence on foreign oil? Hardly. Instead, he's getting ready to make his umpteenth attempt to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling. And that is just a small part of the president's full-bore assault on the environment, best summed up by Sen. Jim Jeffords, the ranking minority member on the Environment and Public Works Committee: "I expect the Bush Administration will go down in history as the greatest disaster for public health and the environment in the history of the United States." That said, it's not hard to see why Bush has hopped aboard the Apocalypse Express. Acting like there's no tomorrow dovetails just as neatly with his corporate backers' rapacious desires as it does with his evangelical backers' rapturous desires. It offers him a political twofer: placating his corporate donors while winning the hearts and votes of the true believers who helped the president achieve a Second Coming of his own. No small miracle, given his record. It's important to point out, however, that it's not just the White House and the End-Timers. Acting as if we have a finite future has infected our entire culture. Just look at personal savings, which have fallen to next to nothing, with Americans socking away a meager two-tenths of 1 percent of their disposable incomes. Meanwhile, the average U.S. household carries about $14,000 of credit-card debt; one in four consumers spends more than he or she can afford; and, as a result, every 15 seconds, someone somewhere in America is going bankrupt. Which, I guess, in Bush World is how an angel gets his wings. All this represents a seismic shift in our cultural outlook. Since our founding, the American ethos has been forward-looking, geared to a bountiful future, with each generation of parents working as hard as they can to ensure a better life for their children. Those days are clearly gone. And it has put our entire civilization at grave risk - a point echoed with great clarity by Jared Diamond, whose new book, "Collapse," looks at the reasons why so many great civilizations of the past have failed. A lthough Diamond offers a range of reasons why these societies collapsed, one message comes through loud and clear: We've got to stop living like there is no tomorrow - or "f- - - the future" will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. © 2005 ARIANNA HUFFINGTON. DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC. From benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com Wed Jan 12 13:10:37 2005 Received: from vwfs.com (mail.vwfs.com [63.174.218.66]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CLAQG7010343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benjamin.monjay@vwcredit.com) Received: from ([10.136.50.52]) by mail.vwfs.com with ESMTP id 133020024.8186417; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:09:48 -0600 Received: by usvcilvx001.afc.vw.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:09:09 -0600 Message-ID: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC91C@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> From: "Monjay, Benjamin" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:09:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove district chooses new bus service X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:10:37 -0000 Let the flaming begin..... Forest Grove district chooses new bus service The school district agrees to start negotiations with Mid-Columbia Bus Co. after 12 years with Laidlaw Wednesday, January 12, 2005 SOPHIA TAREEN FOREST GROVE -- The Forest Grove School Board has unanimously approved the start of negotiations with Mid-Columbia Bus Co. Inc. for district transportation services. At Monday's meeting, board members didn't offer a reason for wanting to switch from Laidlaw Education Services, which the district has contracted with for 12 years, but all echoed confidence in the decision. "Mid-Columbia was evaluated more positively based on the criteria that we had," district business manager Mike Schofield said. A seven-person committee, made up of district officials, a school board member and a community representative, was assigned to evaluate transportation services in November. They considered four companies: Laidlaw, Mid-Columbia, Durham School Services and First Student Inc. The committee scored each company on nine factors including financial strength, safety, employee retention and cost. Mid-Columbia beat the others by about 200 points, said Mike Steele, school board chairman. About 20 Laidlaw employees attended Monday's meeting, including Kevin Mest, the Northwest-area vice president. "I think our staff has done an excellent job," Mest said. "And we have a proven history here." Portland Public Schools and the Lake Oswego School District use Laidlaw. "This evaluation scoring is a mockery," Mest said. He said Laidlaw had received no word that the district was unhappy with the company's services. Laidlaw had the lowest bid of the four companies, at $1.76 million. Mid-Columbia's bid was more than $30,000 higher, at $1.79 million. But board members said money isn't the only consideration. "A committee looked at this in-depth," said Kent Hutchinson, a board member. "It's about value; it's not necessarily about dollars." Laidlaw contracts about 50 to 55 bus drivers for the district. "We know these kids," bus driver Peter Prior said. "I can't seem to find where the displeasure (with Laidlaw) is." School officials say Mid-Columbia will consider hiring current drivers. If negotiations with Mid-Columbia are successful, it would begin service for the district at the start of the 2005-06 school year. Sophia Tareen: 503-294-5956; sophiatareen@news.oregonian.com Copyright 2005 Oregon Live. All Rights Reserved *********************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from your system and contact the sender. *********************************************************************** From krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 13:19:05 2005 Received: from web50910.mail.yahoo.com (web50910.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.38]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CLJ4dY012179 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:19:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 11322 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 21:12:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4YsoaR2QnutbBNzP5MTHn673V8lRycIRZigy75AJBXFep1DrEkV7qkvvwPdltPyQeNTEVh4GmbqOTUalpZVdtog+0go3NFicAE901Elz3IAe8PbrgaTVqKcMwB8kWTQEMkv7nT3l8NUk6WryE6YGeD9DTFrNQ9WIL9rQOCTB/1s= ; Message-ID: <20050112211219.11320.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.136.2] by web50910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:12:19 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: Krystof Zmudzinski Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <918BAC984C48524E83D42B02B819F590034FC915@usvciplx001.afc.vw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:19:05 -0000 I lived in WI between 1995 and 2000, and there were no emission tests of any kind. But, you know, Oregon is just different... Krystof Zmudzinski --- "Monjay, Benjamin" wrote: > Did you know that Florida does not even check > vehicles for "Smog" > requirements. They determined that the number of > cars on the road that are > OBD II compliant far outnumber the number of cars > that don't have emission > controls. Woth OBD II and III, which are required on > ALL new vehicles sold > in the USA, if the system breaks down to the point > where you are heavilly > polluting, the car will probably not run. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bonnie Combs [mailto:tosca@prodigy.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:57 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > Mr.Zmudzinski, > > I think it is not the test requirement that is > bogus, but the way the test > of that particular automobile is structured is > bogus. What with all the > problems people have in life today, perhaps Mr. > Riley hasn't had time to > delve into this requirement in depth. > > Unfortunately for all of us, there are only 24 hours > in the day. > > I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. JMHO. > > But why do you say "socalled" environmental issues? > Some jurisdictions > report air quality improvement from this and other > similar auto ooriented > measures. Or do you believe they are bogus as well? > > Bonnie > > Krystof Zmudzinski > wrote: > Mr. Riley, > > If you think that the requirement that the check- > engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you > introduce a legislature that would remove this > requirement instead of providing political favors to > your supporters? > > Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption > from those biannual emissions checks altogether? > > You as a Democrat should be firm on those so called > environmental issues. > > Krystof Zmudzinski > > --- Chuck Riley wrote: > > > Vickie, > > > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and I > > will ask him to expedite > > it. > > > > Send it to me at: > > > > Representative Chuck Riley > > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > > Salem, OR 97301 > > > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > > Cell: 503-936-5791 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com > > [mailto:grovenet-bounces@rdrop.com] On > > Behalf Of Bonnie Combs > > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] again... what the heck > > > > > > Vickie, > > > > Try a letter to the governor. He helped me in the > > past on a medical > > insurance matter for my mother. He gets a staff > > person to light a fire > > under the responsible agency . It may take a while > > but it works. > > > > Bonnie (geezerette on a roll) > > > > Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > > ok I'm on a complaining roll now but I truly would > > like to hear what you all think of it. > > We recently went to DEQ to pass our 2001 vehicle. > > Our > > check engine light was on, has been since > February. > > They will (can) not pass your vehicle if that > light > > is > > on. They say that is mandated by the EPA. > > I think that's absurb! The check engine light will > > come on if your gas cap is not on correctly. Royal > > Moore told me this is one of their biggest > > complaints > > and they also said DEQ will (can) not pass you > even > > if > > your emissions come out ok. > > My situation was the light came on in February, it > > cost me $85 to check it out. Their computer told > > them > > a sensor was bad but when the sensor was checked > it > > checked ok. This happened twice in the same day, > the > > 3rd time we decided just to leave the check engine > > light on. But that became a problem when we needed > > to > > pass DEQ. > > DEQ did tell me that they use that system to check > > the > > newer vehicles but it seems like something better > > ought to be figured out. > > Love to hear your thoughts. > > > > Vickie > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced > search. > > Learn more. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet@rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ===== > http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ > > If there must be trouble let it be in my day, > that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. > Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > *********************************************************************** > > DISCLAIMER: > The information transmitted may contain confidential > material and is > intended only for the person or entity to which it > is addressed. Any > review, retransmission, dissemination or other use > of or taking of any > action by persons or entities other than the > intended recipient is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please delete the > information from your system and contact the sender. > === message truncated === ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ron@cobi.biz Wed Jan 12 13:26:35 2005 Received: from smtpauth.easystreet.com (smtpauth.newman.easystreet.com [206.102.12.11]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j0CLQZSH014029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ron@cobi.biz) Received: from RONPORTABLE (dsl-208-161-106-70.dsl.easystreet.com [208.161.106.70]) by smtpauth.easystreet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFA429536 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:26:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: RE: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:26:09 -0800 Organization: Dutch Touch Realty Message-ID: <000001c4f8ed$582f77e0$c5ddfea9@RONPORTABLE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050112202009.66491.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agora.rdrop.com id j0CLQZSH014029 X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@cobi.biz, Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:26:35 -0000 The President of the USA is not allowed to go to war on his own. He must have the approval of Congress, and Congress agreed to war *only* on the iron-clad assurances by the President that he had personal, incontrovertible knowledge that we were about to be attacked by Saddam. Regardless of what moral values people may see in removing Saddam, that was the only basis on which Congress approved the war. It has now been shown that the President's reasons for going to war were completely without foundation. That is an extremely significant point that every American should understand, whether they agree with the war or not. The President does not launch wars, and America does not launch wars simply because of a possible future threat or because we don't like what is going on inside another country. Perhaps there will be some good come from the war some day. The ends do not automatically justify the means, even if our goals for a better Iraq are realized and we are saved the constant monitoring Saddam required to keep him from becoming a threat again. For example, the German people were rescued from a literally killing depression in the 1930's that saw people starving in the streets, but that didn't make the Nazi's good just because they saved German lives at the time. "Insinuate" that US media outlets are hiding things? Krystof, I prefer to cross-check important news stories between sources because all news stories are, of necessity, edited. Editing has bias, intentional or not. I find that it's useful to read the same story from different sources to best understand it. I observed and found it curious that, after finding this story in the headlines of the BBC news, I couldn't find it in the American media. You can draw whatever conclusions you want. Thank you for the references. I searched several American outlets but apparently missed CNN. I have a hard time finding FOX news a viable outlet. They are sort of like the "Telegram" in England in my view. Yes, I do have biases . The American news media has widely reported on itself that it is largely controlled by the right wing these days, and the stories suggest that that the news media is right (in more ways than one ). Maybe their reports are false. I don't know. That's why I follow the news from several sources in several countries. It's so easy to do these day, I recommend anyone do that. Ron D'Eau Claire -----Original Message----- From: Krystof Zmudzinski [mailto:krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:20 PM To: ron@cobi.biz; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] One Chapter Closed... I'm not going to argue about the validity of reasons for the Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned, this is a just and needed war and the reason for it are as convincing today as they were in 2001. I'd like to discuss media bias. First, I think it's unfair to use BBC to insinuate that US media outlets are hiding news that are bad for the Bush administration. I, for one, found the news you refer to this morning before 9am: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144143,00.html http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/index.html Second, BBC is one of the most anti-American news outlets second only to Al Jazeera. Its bias is so blatant that even some people in UK recognize it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/nbook09.xml# 3 Lastly, the mantra that US media are somehow owned by conservatives is pretty tiring. From where I'm standing, they are pretty liberal. Unless, of course, Kucinich (or even Dean) is your guy. In that case, I have to say that even liberal media have to have some standards of objectivity. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > ...At last! > > US gives up search for Iraq WMD > > Intelligence officials have confirmed the US has > stopped searching for > weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. > > They say the chief US investigator, Charles Duelfer, > is not planning to > return to the country... > > Officials are still sifting through a mountain of > documents and if they > produce any leads, they say, they will be followed, > but there is no > expectation that the hunt will be revived. > > Story at: > http://tinyurl.com/6nqe4 > > ----------------------------- > > So it's official: There was no reason for the USA to > invade Iraq. > > It's no surprise to most people around here, of > course, but it's nice to see > it "official" anyway. > > It's curious that I don't see this story leading any > of the US news > services. > > It was the top story on the BBC news today. > > Ron D'Eau Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet@rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 13:28:22 2005 Received: from web50905.mail.yahoo.com (web50905.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.125]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CLSL2t014386 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:28:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from krystof_zmudzinski@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 93938 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 21:28:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=skqhA/yZilu/XsGW/LNNRaPBFRqOU95bPlsedl4Zr20cuQ4oQmGRuyFvrS2oqi7kiM32uTK1WHU2nH3cy10PTGXMtRyyVz9rPU9DO74lvBNVAbqqUYD9rjBDaxqBLhqfIhJTBC8L/XOenZBz8fJ8pb6r5wdF57SCQS0Zw8lblEw= ; Message-ID: <20050112212816.93933.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.136.2] by web50905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:28:16 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:28:16 -0800 (PST) From: Krystof Zmudzinski Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm tired of it, too, but it's where we're at folks!. To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050112210928.85993.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:22 -0000 What do you mean? Are you asking if I don't care about the future? On what grounds are you posing your question? Are you implying that if I don't subscribe to every liberal scare tactic, I don't care about the future? Let's talk. This could be interesting. Where do you want to start? Social security, education, war, national debt, job outsourcing? You name it. Just use your own words. Krystof Zmudzinski --- Eric Canon wrote: > > Is this about you, Mr Zmudzinski? > > AMERICA'S FINITE FUTURE? > > By Arianna Huffington > > [A long list of complaints removed] ===== http://polishimmigrant.blogspot.com/ If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. --Thomas Paine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 14:17:32 2005 Received: from web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.114]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CMHVM1025748 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from whatsupy2k@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 23198 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2005 22:10:45 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JmvxINzt0rlPu06cx1ZGA4uRPMefwequsEvSnRBuOl07YJWsY4fEFmfPPJGfymLH5Al+qeE4BesVNS6Y842x4hbG7pWgcb0ZIBkEdBPa9YJnk6WvFZJ40xON306FTZJAr1wTkrvTLBKxIBGjIo4mhQ+rWCTm+smoFntmcDdOgEc= ; Message-ID: <20050112221045.23196.qmail@web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.239.166.121] by web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:10:45 PST Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Vickie Madeoneup Subject: RE: [Grovenet] again... what the heck To: Forest Grove local interests list In-Reply-To: <20050112211219.11320.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: grovenet@rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:17:32 -0000 Mr. Riley I thank you so very much for your show of concern and offer of help even not knowing whether I am a supporter or not. I have already written to the govenor as I do believe that this is an area that needs a closer look and possibly a change. Thanks again, your offer is appreciated. Vickie > > Krystof Zmudzinski > > wrote: > > Mr. Riley, > > > > If you think that the requirement that the check- > > engine light not be on is bogus, why don't you > > introduce a legislature that would remove this > > requirement instead of providing political favors > to > > your supporters? > > > > Can you talk to the Governor to give me exemption > > from those biannual emissions checks altogether? > > > > You as a Democrat should be firm on those so > called > > environmental issues. > > > > Krystof Zmudzinski > > > > --- Chuck Riley wrote: > > > > > Vickie, > > > > > > If you write to the Governor please copy me and > I > > > will ask him to expedite > > > it. > > > > > > Send it to me at: > > > > > > Representative Chuck Riley > > > 900 Court St. NE H-487 > > > Salem, OR 97301 > > > > > > Office: 1-503-986-1429 > > > Cell: 503-936-5791 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From whatsupy2k@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 14:22:42 2005 Received: from web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.118]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with SMTP id j0CMMgGx026999 for