From fgumc at teleport.com  Wed Apr  1 11:59:21 2009
From: fgumc at teleport.com (FGUMC)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:59:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Earth Day Celebration
Message-ID: <B70CBF0E19014421B1365AA04221BF6C@MAINOFFICE>

Hello!  I'm Liz Swenson from Forest Grove United Methodist Church.  I've
just joined Grovenet in order to invite the community to an Earth Day
Celebration at Hagg Lake on Sunday, April 19th.   Eight churches of Forest
Grove will sponsor a potluck, worship, and a two-hour work party.  The
Strong Wings Band from Forest Grove United Church of Christ will provide
music.

 

The schedule will be:

1:00 p.m.            Potluck at Boat Ramp C

1:45 p.m.            Ecumenical worship

2:00 - 4:00 p.m.  Cleanup around the lake

 

Bring work gloves.  Share rides if you can, but parking fees will be waived
when you mention Ecumenical Work Day.

 

Sponsoring churches:

Fellowship Community Church of Forest Grove

Forest Grove Assembly of God

Forest Grove United Church of Christ

Forest Grove United Methodist Church

Real Life Christian Church of Cornelius

Refuge of Christ Church

St. Anthony's Catholic Church

St. Bede's Episcopal Church

 

Contact: 

Rev. Dan Wilson-Fey                                       or         Rev.
Jennifer Yocum

Forest Grove United Methodist Church             Forest Grove United Church
of Christ

fgumc at teleport.com
jennifer at fgucc.org 

503-357-2689
503-357-9121

            

 


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  1 12:13:04 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:13:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over
Message-ID: <454823.85530.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As a reminder,?if you're still driving?around?using studded tires, starting today you face a Class C traffic violation and a maximum fine of $145 in Oregon.? And no, this is *NOT* an April Fools joke.

Allen Warren


      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Apr  1 12:17:10 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:17:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over
In-Reply-To: <454823.85530.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <454823.85530.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CCC1D0D2-E122-485F-ACDD-B3EE16FDE8E0@verizon.net>

I think the April fool's joke is the weather!
; )

Katie

On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> As a reminder, if you're still driving around using studded tires,  
> starting today you face a Class C traffic violation and a maximum  
> fine of $145 in Oregon.  And no, this is *NOT* an April Fools joke.
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  1 12:22:11 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over
In-Reply-To: <CCC1D0D2-E122-485F-ACDD-B3EE16FDE8E0@verizon.net>
References: <454823.85530.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CCC1D0D2-E122-485F-ACDD-B3EE16FDE8E0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <197213.44599.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No kidding!

Tough part?about?having to remove the studded tires is if you want to go skiing or snowboarding, Mt. Hood ski resorts have been getting pounded w/lots of snow in the past week,?are expecting more snow the next few days,?so?travel to/from the area?might be better served if folks could keep?using their studded tires.
?
Allen Warren




________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 12:17:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over

I think the April fool's joke is the weather!
; )

Katie

On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> As a reminder, if you're still driving around using studded tires,? 
> starting today you face a Class C traffic violation and a maximum? 
> fine of $145 in Oregon.? And no, this is *NOT* an April Fools joke.
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Apr  1 12:22:27 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:22:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over
References: <454823.85530.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CCC1D0D2-E122-485F-ACDD-B3EE16FDE8E0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <253459EDF6B748188C0E83728D94271F@gerianehzkfhvy>

Katie, it must be those April showers which will bring May flowers ... ?

Yesterday sure was a windy "joke," as March is supposed to come in like a lion, but go out like a lamb!  : )

Okay, enough cliches ...

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It's April 1st: studded tire season is over


>I think the April fool's joke is the weather!
> ; )
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Allen Warren wrote:
> 
>> As a reminder, if you're still driving around using studded tires,  
>> starting today you face a Class C traffic violation and a maximum  
>> fine of $145 in Oregon.  And no, this is *NOT* an April Fools joke.
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:01:23 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:01:23 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Hello
In-Reply-To: <B4648F00-EE9F-4C4B-9BDE-F9E34A037B91@verizon.net>
References: <BAY127-W23B37B3E92E621F107A4C6A98B0@phx.gbl>
	<B4648F00-EE9F-4C4B-9BDE-F9E34A037B91@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W4065FA6A11DEE21047F5DCA9880@phx.gbl>


Thanks for the great welcome and yes, I hope most people support our local business men.  I make sure that I do as often as I can.  I really hate it when I see someone try so hard and then continue to see all the business go to big corporation  places when most of our local business establishments often serve even better prices, service and (hopefully like I think I do) better food and drink for the customer.
Thanks again and I will check in from day to day.
http://www.braketimecoffee.com
Glenn
======================================================


> From: jo.david at verizon.net
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:01:25 -0700
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello
> 
> Welcome.
> 
> Good luck expanding your business in Forest Grove, we need all of the  
> energy we can generate from home-grown businesses.
> 
> David
> 
> On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
> 
> >
> > I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into  
> > our little coffee shop the other day.  My name is Glenn and I own  
> > the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st  
> > drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific  
> > just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer.  Anyway we have  
> > just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to  
> > expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar.  Right now we only  
> > have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar  
> > ready to open.  We also hope it will be a vinue for the community.   
> > We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this  
> > will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be  
> > able to gather.
> > I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van  
> > Dykes was very good.  We too see lots of local business lost to big  
> > Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local.  It  
> > just makes good sense.
> > Glenn
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
> > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail? 
> > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. 
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009

From theresacus at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  2 04:49:31 2009
From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 04:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hello
Message-ID: <192902.9318.qm@web34506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi All,
I too have been here in FG a while, but Oregon all my life.? Currently, I am an unemployed mask designer and have been spending time working on?promoting the?Arts in our?community.? 
?
Keith and I are putting together a music program at Rogers Park.? We have gotten most of the city dealings taken care of and are finalizing the rest.? It will be the second Sunday of June, July, August and September.?1-4:30 PM?The first hour will be open mic, second hour a featured band, and the third hour a jam session.? Our goal is to bring community awareness to the importance of the Arts.? Especially in education.? We need both sports and the arts for our young adults, it is down time for them where they can release that pent up frustration.? We are currently finalizing things.? We are now in search of volunteers to help with the event.? 
?
The thing that we are so excited about is that Music and the Arts crosses all age and cultural boundaries.? It also is one of those feel good things that brings a tighter community and brings business, to our community.? If anyone has a need for musicians, or other talent.? We are happy to connect people.? 
?
Izgara's will be having our very own Rachel Mirah belly dancing on Fridays at 6PM.? She won the talent contest at Forest Grove High School last year and is very very talented.?
?
Keith Cantrell, (my partner)?will be playing at Izgara's this Saturday as well.? 
?
August 8th is the Education Foundations Event at Lincoln Park, featuring Quarter Flash.? 
?
There will be Jazz at the Concourse too this year.? 
?
We are hoping that Keith's guitar students from the Chinese Learning Center will be performing the Lion and Dragon dance, for the Chalk Art Festival too.?? We were invited last January to the Chinese New Year Festival at the Convention center and were WOWed by the kids.? 
?
Another name to watch for is Ian Lindsay.? He is a Freshman at FG High and quite the Blues guitarist.? 
?
My own son, Nick Carter?is a? Indonesian fire spinner, that WOWed the crowd at the Mr. Viking contest, at the high school.??Be sure to congratulate him for he is quite cute in his tiara. (Sorry but the proud Mom comes out some times.)? He too is looking for venues and events to perform at.? 
?
Feel free to contact us to perform at the open mic or to volenteer at the Music in the Park event.? 
?
Hugs 
Theresa and Keith
theresacus at yahoo.com
?
?
?
?
?


--- On Wed, 4/1/09, grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com> wrote:


From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 53, Issue 1
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:00 PM


Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
??? grovenet at rdrop.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."


Today's Topics:

???1. Hello (Glenn Berkheimer)
???2. Re: Hello (Steven)
???3. Re: Hello (Geri)
???4. Re: Hello (David Morelli)
???5. Earth Day Celebration (FGUMC)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:26:36 -0600
From: Glenn Berkheimer <braketimecoffee at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Hello
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W23B37B3E92E621F107A4C6A98B0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our little coffee shop the other day.? My name is Glenn and I own the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer.? Anyway we have just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar.? Right now we only have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open.? We also hope it will be a vinue for the community.? We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be able to gather.
I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes was very good.? We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local.? It just makes good sense.
Glenn

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:45:36 -0700
From: "Steven" <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAEPAMDAA.NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1"

Cool idea for the college croud.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Glenn Berkheimer
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:27 PM
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: [Grovenet] Hello
>
>
>
> I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our
> little coffee shop the other day.? My name is Glenn and I own the little
> espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through
> espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from
> McDonalds and is a little trailer.? Anyway we have just acquired the
> rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make
> it a Coffee Piano Bar.? Right now we only have the drive through but we
> are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open.? We also hope it will
> be a vinue for the community.? We do not plan to serve any alcoholic
> beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and
> people of all ages to be able to gather.
> I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes
> was very good.? We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when
> local was better and I too try to only shop local.? It just makes good
> sense.
> Glenn
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:11:27 -0700
From: "Geri" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <3C192E49590549618B8F1E4565E3AE7A at gerianehzkfhvy>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1"

Welcome, Glenn!

I like the sound of a family coffee piano bar, and wish you very well!


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Berkheimer" <braketimecoffee at hotmail.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:26 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Hello



I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our little coffee shop the other day.? My name is Glenn and I own the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer.? Anyway we have just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar.? Right now we only have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open.? We also hope it will be a vinue for the community.? We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be able to gather.
I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes was very good.? We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local.? It just makes good sense.
Glenn

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:01:25 -0700
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hello
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <B4648F00-EE9F-4C4B-9BDE-F9E34A037B91 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Welcome.

Good luck expanding your business in Forest Grove, we need all of the? 
energy we can generate from home-grown businesses.

David

On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:

>
> I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into? 
> our little coffee shop the other day.? My name is Glenn and I own? 
> the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st? 
> drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific? 
> just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer.? Anyway we have? 
> just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to? 
> expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar.? Right now we only? 
> have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar? 
> ready to open.? We also hope it will be a vinue for the community.???
> We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this? 
> will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be? 
> able to gather.
> I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van? 
> Dykes was very good.? We too see lots of local business lost to big? 
> Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local.? It? 
> just makes good sense.
> Glenn
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail? 
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:59:21 -0700
From: "FGUMC" <fgumc at teleport.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Earth Day Celebration
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <B70CBF0E19014421B1365AA04221BF6C at MAINOFFICE>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="US-ASCII"

Hello!? I'm Liz Swenson from Forest Grove United Methodist Church.? I've
just joined Grovenet in order to invite the community to an Earth Day
Celebration at Hagg Lake on Sunday, April 19th.???Eight churches of Forest
Grove will sponsor a potluck, worship, and a two-hour work party.? The
Strong Wings Band from Forest Grove United Church of Christ will provide
music.



The schedule will be:

1:00 p.m.? ? ? ? ? ? Potluck at Boat Ramp C

1:45 p.m.? ? ? ? ? ? Ecumenical worship

2:00 - 4:00 p.m.? Cleanup around the lake



Bring work gloves.? Share rides if you can, but parking fees will be waived
when you mention Ecumenical Work Day.



Sponsoring churches:

Fellowship Community Church of Forest Grove

Forest Grove Assembly of God

Forest Grove United Church of Christ

Forest Grove United Methodist Church

Real Life Christian Church of Cornelius

Refuge of Christ Church

St. Anthony's Catholic Church

St. Bede's Episcopal Church



Contact: 

Rev. Dan Wilson-Fey? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???or? ? ? ???Rev.
Jennifer Yocum

Forest Grove United Methodist Church? ? ? ? ? ???Forest Grove United Church
of Christ

fgumc at teleport.com
jennifer at fgucc.org 

503-357-2689
503-357-9121

? ? ? ? ? ? 





------------------------------

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 53, Issue 1
***************************************



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Apr  2 15:19:31 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:19:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
Message-ID: <49D539F3.4010200@jurislex.com>

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr  3 10:29:06 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:29:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
Message-ID: <397E5FFAFEF14DF88C71A24EE9C795AE@gerianehzkfhvy>

Thank you, Bob.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Browning 
To: Grovenet 
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009


A very special member of the Forest Grove Community, known to many at the University, but relatively unknown to others in this community, has lost his courageous fight with illness. A full obituary follows. A memorial service will be held Sunday April 5 at 3:00 pm in the McCready Hall. Please pass this information onto anyone whom you believe may be interested.

  OWEN CHARLES FOX, III

              Owen C. Fox, III, 65, a longtime resident of the Forest Grove community, died Wednesday morning, April 1, 2009 at his home.  A Celebration of Owen?s Life will be held on Sunday, April 5, 2009 at 3:00 P.M. at the Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, 2014 Cedar Street in Forest Grove, Oregon, with the Father William Holtzinger of St. Anthony?s Parish in Forest Grove officiating. Burial Rites and Interment will precede the Celebration at 1:00 P.M. to be held at the Mt. View Memorial Gardens, 499 Watercrest Road in Forest Grove, Oregon.

               Family and friends are invited to attend a reception immediately following the ceremony at the Pacific University, University Center.

               OWEN CHARLES FOX, III was born July 31, 1943 in Lake Forest, Illinois, where his father was stationed at the Great Lakes Naval base. He was the son of the late Owen Charles Fox, II, and Ruth Mercedes (Butcher) Fox. He was raised and received his education in Ottawa, Illinois. Upon his high school graduation he attended St. Procopius College in Illinois, receiving a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics; the Western Illinois University, where he received a Master?s of Science degree; and finally the University of Portland, where he pursued his Master in Student Services Administration. Owen found his first employment as a mathematics teacher and counselor at St. Viator High School in Arlington Heights, Illinois, where he served for 3 years.

               He was united in marriage to Joann Marie Schuster on June 2, 1979 in Joliet, Illinois. Following their marriage they resided in Ottawa, Illinois, where he worked as a part-time counselor/advisor for incoming students at Illinois Valley Community College.  In 1987, when they moved to Portland, Oregon, he was Resident Manager of Commonwealth Property Management Services for 2 years. They lived in Portland for four years, until February of 1991 when they moved to the Forest Grove community, where he has resided since.  Owen was preceded in death by his wife, Joann, on June 23, 1999 in Forest Grove, Oregon, after celebrating twenty years of marriage together.

               While living in Ottawa, Illinois, he served as a counselor at Marquette High School for sixteen years. Owen met his wife there. Joann was the Girl?s Athletic Director. After moving to the Forest Grove community, Owen worked for Pacific University as an Operations Manager for 2 years, then as the Assistant Director of the University Center until 1991, when he became Director of Conference Services. Starting in 1992 he also served as Coordinator of Non-academic Facilities for 6 years.  Owen then served 2 years as Director of the Pacific Information Center while continuing as Director of Conference Services and Coordinator of University Facilities Scheduling. He then became Director of Student Development and Training in 2000 and a year later became the Professional Programs Liaison and the Health & Safety Manager. All in all, he served Pacific University for nineteen years, until he retired because of ill health.

               Owen became an advisor in 1993 to the NHOH Club (Na Haumana O Hawaii) and remained actively involved in the Club until his passing. He also worked extensively with the Greek Life Club at Pacific University and the Student Government, PUCC.   Owen was an honorary member of the NRHA (National Residence Hall Association). For several years prior to moving to Oregon, Owen was involved in travels with many Drum and Bugle Corps. throughout the U.S.

               Among his special interests he enjoyed music, videos, reading, garage sales, photography and traveling, especially to Hawaii and the Oregon Coast.

               Owen was preceded in death by his parents. Survivors include his brother and sister-in-law, Paul and Laurie Fox, of Rantoul, Illinois; and their children, Paula, Paul Jr., Brandon, Michael, and Patrick.  Also surviving are four grandnephews and his special friends Denise Giesbers of Forest Grove; Edna K. Gehring of Beaverton, and Peter J. Erschen of Forest Grove.

               The family suggests that remembrances may be contributions to the Hawaiian Club, c/o Edna Gehring, Pacific University, 2043 College Way, #113, Forest Grove, Oregon, 97116 or to the Bonnie Hayes Small Animal Shelter, 1901 S.E. 24th Avenue, Hillsboro, Oregon 97123-7920, in his memory.

               To sign an online guest book or to send a condolence to the family go to www.fuitenrosehoyt.com.

               Fuiten, Rose & Hoyt Funeral Home in Forest Grove is in charge of the arrangements. (503)-357-2161 






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com 
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  3 11:00:04 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
In-Reply-To: <397E5FFAFEF14DF88C71A24EE9C795AE@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <793214.10820.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


He also volunteered for the library book sale.  Thank you, Owen, where ever you are!

Alana


--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net> wrote:

> From: Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 10:29 AM
> Thank you, Bob.
> 
> Geri
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Bob Browning 
> To: Grovenet 
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 3:19 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
> 
> 
> A very special member of the Forest Grove Community, known
> to many at the University, but relatively unknown to others
> in this community, has lost his courageous fight with
> illness. A full obituary follows. A memorial service will be
> held Sunday April 5 at 3:00 pm in the McCready Hall. Please
> pass this information onto anyone whom you believe may be
> interested.
> 
>   OWEN CHARLES FOX, III
> 
>               Owen C. Fox, III, 65, a longtime resident of
> the Forest Grove community, died Wednesday morning, April 1,
> 2009 at his home.  A Celebration of Owen?s Life will be
> held on Sunday, April 5, 2009 at 3:00 P.M. at the
> Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, 2014
> Cedar Street in Forest Grove, Oregon, with the Father
> William Holtzinger of St. Anthony?s Parish in Forest Grove
> officiating. Burial Rites and Interment will precede the
> Celebration at 1:00 P.M. to be held at the Mt. View Memorial
> Gardens, 499 Watercrest Road in Forest Grove, Oregon.
> 
>                Family and friends are invited to attend a
> reception immediately following the ceremony at the Pacific
> University, University Center.
> 
>                OWEN CHARLES FOX, III was born July 31, 1943
> in Lake Forest, Illinois, where his father was stationed at
> the Great Lakes Naval base. He was the son of the late Owen
> Charles Fox, II, and Ruth Mercedes (Butcher) Fox. He was
> raised and received his education in Ottawa, Illinois. Upon
> his high school graduation he attended St. Procopius College
> in Illinois, receiving a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics;
> the Western Illinois University, where he received a
> Master?s of Science degree; and finally the University of
> Portland, where he pursued his Master in Student Services
> Administration. Owen found his first employment as a
> mathematics teacher and counselor at St. Viator High School
> in Arlington Heights, Illinois, where he served for 3 years.
> 
>                He was united in marriage to Joann Marie
> Schuster on June 2, 1979 in Joliet, Illinois. Following
> their marriage they resided in Ottawa, Illinois, where he
> worked as a part-time counselor/advisor for incoming
> students at Illinois Valley Community College.  In 1987,
> when they moved to Portland, Oregon, he was Resident Manager
> of Commonwealth Property Management Services for 2 years.
> They lived in Portland for four years, until February of
> 1991 when they moved to the Forest Grove community, where he
> has resided since.  Owen was preceded in death by his wife,
> Joann, on June 23, 1999 in Forest Grove, Oregon, after
> celebrating twenty years of marriage together.
> 
>                While living in Ottawa, Illinois, he served
> as a counselor at Marquette High School for sixteen years.
> Owen met his wife there. Joann was the Girl?s Athletic
> Director. After moving to the Forest Grove community, Owen
> worked for Pacific University as an Operations Manager for 2
> years, then as the Assistant Director of the University
> Center until 1991, when he became Director of Conference
> Services. Starting in 1992 he also served as Coordinator of
> Non-academic Facilities for 6 years.  Owen then served 2
> years as Director of the Pacific Information Center while
> continuing as Director of Conference Services and
> Coordinator of University Facilities Scheduling. He then
> became Director of Student Development and Training in 2000
> and a year later became the Professional Programs Liaison
> and the Health & Safety Manager. All in all, he served
> Pacific University for nineteen years, until he retired
> because of ill health.
> 
>                Owen became an advisor in 1993 to the NHOH
> Club (Na Haumana O Hawaii) and remained actively involved in
> the Club until his passing. He also worked extensively with
> the Greek Life Club at Pacific University and the Student
> Government, PUCC.   Owen was an honorary member of the NRHA
> (National Residence Hall Association). For several years
> prior to moving to Oregon, Owen was involved in travels with
> many Drum and Bugle Corps. throughout the U.S.
> 
>                Among his special interests he enjoyed
> music, videos, reading, garage sales, photography and
> traveling, especially to Hawaii and the Oregon Coast.
> 
>                Owen was preceded in death by his parents.
> Survivors include his brother and sister-in-law, Paul and
> Laurie Fox, of Rantoul, Illinois; and their children, Paula,
> Paul Jr., Brandon, Michael, and Patrick.  Also surviving are
> four grandnephews and his special friends Denise Giesbers of
> Forest Grove; Edna K. Gehring of Beaverton, and Peter J.
> Erschen of Forest Grove.
> 
>                The family suggests that remembrances may be
> contributions to the Hawaiian Club, c/o Edna Gehring,
> Pacific University, 2043 College Way, #113, Forest Grove,
> Oregon, 97116 or to the Bonnie Hayes Small Animal Shelter,
> 1901 S.E. 24th Avenue, Hillsboro, Oregon 97123-7920, in his
> memory.
> 
>                To sign an online guest book or to send a
> condolence to the family go to www.fuitenrosehoyt.com.
> 
>                Fuiten, Rose & Hoyt Funeral Home in
> Forest Grove is in charge of the arrangements.
> (503)-357-2161 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   GroveNet mailing list
>   GroveNet at rdrop.com 
>   http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


      


From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  3 17:07:45 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:07:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove Oral History Project
In-Reply-To: <B70CBF0E19014421B1365AA04221BF6C@MAINOFFICE>
Message-ID: <352146.38206.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


2009 is the 100th birthday of the Forest Grove City Library!

As part of the library's celebrations for the year - and the 150th birthday of the State of Oregon - citizens are invited to participate in an:

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

People will have the opportunity to tell their individual and family stories highlighting their or their family's immigration history, revealing the rich cultural heritage of the local area and its people.  Whether your family's been here for 100 years or 10 years, whether your family is white, red, yellow, black, brown or green, your contribution is worthwhile to the community!

Videotaping will occur in late April and early May.  For more information and to sign up call the Forest Grove City Library at 503-992-3247.  You will be contacted with specifics concerning date, time and place for videotaping.

Alana, Friends of the FG Library




      

From warner at aracnet.com  Fri Apr  3 23:45:35 2009
From: warner at aracnet.com (Cecelia Warner)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:45:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
In-Reply-To: <793214.10820.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <793214.10820.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9AE0E29A-60D5-40E7-94EA-E31D121B0AA5@aracnet.com>

Owen had a wonderful - and extensive - collection of foxes throughout  
his house: photos, paintings, watercolors, statuettes, and misc.  
collectables. (Get it? Owen "Fox").

My daughter, Elizabeth, fed Owen's two dogs while he was recovering  
from surgery this past fall. They will really miss Owen! As will we all.

Cecelia


On Apr 3, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Alana Graham wrote:

>
> He also volunteered for the library book sale.  Thank you, Owen,  
> where ever you are!
>
> Alana
>
>
> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 10:29 AM
>> Thank you, Bob.
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bob Browning
>> To: Grovenet
>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 3:19 PM
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
>>
>>
>> A very special member of the Forest Grove Community, known
>> to many at the University, but relatively unknown to others
>> in this community, has lost his courageous fight with
>> illness. A full obituary follows. A memorial service will be
>> held Sunday April 5 at 3:00 pm in the McCready Hall. Please
>> pass this information onto anyone whom you believe may be
>> interested.
>>
>>  OWEN CHARLES FOX, III
>>
>>              Owen C. Fox, III, 65, a longtime resident of
>> the Forest Grove community, died Wednesday morning, April 1,
>> 2009 at his home.  A Celebration of Owen?s Life will be
>> held on Sunday, April 5, 2009 at 3:00 P.M. at the
>> Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, 2014
>> Cedar Street in Forest Grove, Oregon, with the Father
>> William Holtzinger of St. Anthony?s Parish in Forest Grove
>> officiating. Burial Rites and Interment will precede the
>> Celebration at 1:00 P.M. to be held at the Mt. View Memorial
>> Gardens, 499 Watercrest Road in Forest Grove, Oregon.
>>
>>               Family and friends are invited to attend a
>> reception immediately following the ceremony at the Pacific
>> University, University Center.
>>
>>               OWEN CHARLES FOX, III was born July 31, 1943
>> in Lake Forest, Illinois, where his father was stationed at
>> the Great Lakes Naval base. He was the son of the late Owen
>> Charles Fox, II, and Ruth Mercedes (Butcher) Fox. He was
>> raised and received his education in Ottawa, Illinois. Upon
>> his high school graduation he attended St. Procopius College
>> in Illinois, receiving a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics;
>> the Western Illinois University, where he received a
>> Master?s of Science degree; and finally the University of
>> Portland, where he pursued his Master in Student Services
>> Administration. Owen found his first employment as a
>> mathematics teacher and counselor at St. Viator High School
>> in Arlington Heights, Illinois, where he served for 3 years.
>>
>>               He was united in marriage to Joann Marie
>> Schuster on June 2, 1979 in Joliet, Illinois. Following
>> their marriage they resided in Ottawa, Illinois, where he
>> worked as a part-time counselor/advisor for incoming
>> students at Illinois Valley Community College.  In 1987,
>> when they moved to Portland, Oregon, he was Resident Manager
>> of Commonwealth Property Management Services for 2 years.
>> They lived in Portland for four years, until February of
>> 1991 when they moved to the Forest Grove community, where he
>> has resided since.  Owen was preceded in death by his wife,
>> Joann, on June 23, 1999 in Forest Grove, Oregon, after
>> celebrating twenty years of marriage together.
>>
>>               While living in Ottawa, Illinois, he served
>> as a counselor at Marquette High School for sixteen years.
>> Owen met his wife there. Joann was the Girl?s Athletic
>> Director. After moving to the Forest Grove community, Owen
>> worked for Pacific University as an Operations Manager for 2
>> years, then as the Assistant Director of the University
>> Center until 1991, when he became Director of Conference
>> Services. Starting in 1992 he also served as Coordinator of
>> Non-academic Facilities for 6 years.  Owen then served 2
>> years as Director of the Pacific Information Center while
>> continuing as Director of Conference Services and
>> Coordinator of University Facilities Scheduling. He then
>> became Director of Student Development and Training in 2000
>> and a year later became the Professional Programs Liaison
>> and the Health & Safety Manager. All in all, he served
>> Pacific University for nineteen years, until he retired
>> because of ill health.
>>
>>               Owen became an advisor in 1993 to the NHOH
>> Club (Na Haumana O Hawaii) and remained actively involved in
>> the Club until his passing. He also worked extensively with
>> the Greek Life Club at Pacific University and the Student
>> Government, PUCC.   Owen was an honorary member of the NRHA
>> (National Residence Hall Association). For several years
>> prior to moving to Oregon, Owen was involved in travels with
>> many Drum and Bugle Corps. throughout the U.S.
>>
>>               Among his special interests he enjoyed
>> music, videos, reading, garage sales, photography and
>> traveling, especially to Hawaii and the Oregon Coast.
>>
>>               Owen was preceded in death by his parents.
>> Survivors include his brother and sister-in-law, Paul and
>> Laurie Fox, of Rantoul, Illinois; and their children, Paula,
>> Paul Jr., Brandon, Michael, and Patrick.  Also surviving are
>> four grandnephews and his special friends Denise Giesbers of
>> Forest Grove; Edna K. Gehring of Beaverton, and Peter J.
>> Erschen of Forest Grove.
>>
>>               The family suggests that remembrances may be
>> contributions to the Hawaiian Club, c/o Edna Gehring,
>> Pacific University, 2043 College Way, #113, Forest Grove,
>> Oregon, 97116 or to the Bonnie Hayes Small Animal Shelter,
>> 1901 S.E. 24th Avenue, Hillsboro, Oregon 97123-7920, in his
>> memory.
>>
>>               To sign an online guest book or to send a
>> condolence to the family go to www.fuitenrosehoyt.com.
>>
>>               Fuiten, Rose & Hoyt Funeral Home in
>> Forest Grove is in charge of the arrangements.
>> (503)-357-2161
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  GroveNet mailing list
>>  GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 07:35:42 2009
From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 07:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] SOLV Carpenter Creek/Plumlee/Stringtown
Message-ID: <207646.9713.qm@web35601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>













If interested in signing up please
see the link below.



Saturday, May 16???
9-1SOLV Carpenter
Creek/Plumlee/Stringtownhttp://www.solv.org/programs/forms/form_VolRegistration.asp?EventID=15856&EventDt=5/16/2009&eventName=Carpenter%20Creek%20Loop


Coordinator: Dean Jares ?????????
Contact
Email: deanoy2k at yahoo.com?????


Contact Phone Number: 503-481-4380







Project
Activities: Clean trash and garbage along creek edge and road side around road
loop. ?We hope to have post event food - maybe hotdogs, and drinks, still in
the planning process. 

Any tools purchased will be donated
to the Forest Grove Community School after the event.

Safety Issues:
, Steep Slopes, Water Body on Site, Poison Oak, Uneven or Slippery Ground.

Recommended
Minimum Age: 8

Volunteers To Bring: Bucket,
Pitchfork, Rake, Shovel, Hand Pruner, Wheelbarrow, Litter Grabber, Loppers,
Wire Cutters, Work Boots, Own Water, Gloves, Sturdy Shoes

Wear heavy
gloves, long sleeves and long pants around blackberry plants.

Meeting
Location: PARKING WILL BE ALONG CARPENTER CREEK RD AS WELL AS IN PARKING AREA
FOR A LOCAL NURSERY 150 FT IN FROM INTERSECTION OF CARPENTER CREEK AND
STRINGTOWN RD

Plan for the
weather with layers of clothing, sunscreen, rain gear, etc.

Work with a
partner and watch out for each other's safety.

Watch out
for other volunteers' safety, especially when working close together.

Pace yourself,
don't overexert.

Take breaks,
rest, don't work continually. Drink water, eat a snack.

Follow
common sense practices when lifting heavy items: use your knees, not your back.

Fill
collection bags only 2/3 full, especially when handling heavy items.

Watch for
poison oak, poison ivy, Giant Hogweed, or other plants to which you may be
allergic. 

Leave the
site if hazardous conditions, such as disturbed bee hives exist, especially if
you have an allergy or are otherwise susceptible to the conditions.

Use
sunscreen and mosquito repellant when outdoors

Wear a
safety vest. Stay off the roadway.

Stop often
to orient yourself and make sure you're not wandering close to traffic.

When working
on steep slopes or banks Make sure your footing is stable. 

When
encountering hazardous items: Don't touch, Mark the item and contact the Event
Coordinator

Identify
each item before you touch it.? If you
are uncertain about an item, leave it alone.

Do not touch
medical waste or hazardous materials, including syringe needles, bandages and
condoms.? 

Don't touch
containers with unidentified liquid or material in them.

Don't touch
propane gas tanks.? They may be used to
manufacture illegal drugs and can explode.

In case an
accident occurs??? Know where the first
aid kit is.

Know where
the nearest medical facility is located.

Know where
the nearest phone is.? If it's a cell
phone, make sure you have a dial tone.? 

Dial 9-1-1
if emergency medical care is required, know your location.





      

From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 13:14:49 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Legacy of NAFTA talk at Pacific U. 4/17/09
In-Reply-To: <192902.9318.qm@web34506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <345961.32814.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


MEXICAN AGRICULTURAL EXPERT SPEAKS TO LEGACY OF NAFTA AND ITS EFFECTS ON FAMILIES

Date:  Friday, April 17, 4:30 PM
Place:  Taylor Auditorium, Marsh Hall (see www.pacificu.edu for directions)

Free and open to the Public.  Reception to follow

Baldemar Mendoza Jimenez, an agro-ecologist from Oaxaca, Mexico, will visit communities across the Pacific Northwest throughout the month of April 2009.  

Mr. Mendoza weaves connections to demonstrate how globalization, the neoliberal economic model and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) have contributed significantly to the increase in migration and poverty in Oaxaca, Mexico.  

At Pacific University Mr. Mendoza will focus on the impact of NAFTA on families.

Baldemar Mendoza Jim?nez works for the Union of Organizations of the Sierra Juarez of Oaxaca (UNOSJO) by supporting indigenous communities to practice organic and traditional agriculture.  He has participated in UNOSJO?s informational campaign regarding the contamination of native corn by genetically modified corn.  Mr. Mendoza promotes sustainable agriculture using the farmer to farmer method to attain food sovereignty.

"NAFTA took away price guarantees for corn and other products,? said Mendoza.  ?Farmers could not make ends meet and looked for alternatives that would generate income.  They abandoned their lands, they left to work in maquilas and they emigrated to the United States.  Migration has brought the abandonment of the countryside, family disintegration and a decomposition of the tightly-woven community.  Community practices that were an integral part to indigenous Oaxacan communities have been lost.?

Mr. Mendoza will be hosted by Witness for Peace Northwest, with complete Spanish to English interpretation provided by Witness for Peace Mexico Team member Ann Thiesen.  Witness for Peace is a politically independent, nationwide grassroots organization of people committed to nonviolence and led by faith and conscience. WFP?s mission is to support peace, justice and sustainable economies in the Americas by changing U.S. policies and corporate practices which contribute to poverty and oppression in Latin America and the Caribbean.

For more information about this tour or Witness for Peace, or to set up an interview with Baldemar Mendoza Jimenez, please contact Beth Poteet at 509.995.2571 or wfpnw at witnessforpeace.org.  Visit www.witnessforpeace.org/northwest.

Pacific Event Co-Sponsors:  Center for Gender Equity, Humanitarian Center, Environmental Studies, Department of Economics, Students for a Democratic Society, School of Occupational Therapy, Politics and Law Forum, Department of Politics and Government

Dr. Martha Rampton
Professor of History
Director-Center for Gender Equity
Pacific University



      


From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 13:26:29 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Local SOLV project Sat. 5/16/09
Message-ID: <291525.97640.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Saturday, May 16, 9 AM - 1 PM,  

Sponsored by the Forest Grove Community School

SOLV Carpenter Creek/Plumlee/Stringtown project

Go to this site to register to volunteer:

http://www.solv.org/programs/forms/form_VolRegistration.asp?EventID=15856&EventDt=5/16/2009&eventName=Carpenter%20Creek%20Loop


Meeting Location: PARKING WILL BE ALONG CARPENTER CREEK RD AS WELL AS IN PARKING AREA FOR A LOCAL NURSERY 150 FT IN FROM INTERSECTION OF CARPENTER CREEK AND STRINGTOWN RD

Project Activities: Clean trash and garbage along creek edge and road side around road loop.  We hope to have post event food - maybe hotdogs, and drinks, still in the planning process. 

Any tools purchased will be donated to the Forest Grove Community School after the event.

Safety Issues:  Steep Slopes, Water Body on Site, Poison Oak, Uneven or Slippery Ground.

Recommended Minimum Age: 8

Volunteers To Bring: Bucket, Pitchfork, Rake, Shovel, Hand Pruner, Wheelbarrow, Litter Grabber, Loppers, Wire Cutters, Work Boots, Own Water, Gloves, Sturdy Shoes

Wear heavy gloves, long sleeves and long pants around blackberry plants.

Plan for the weather with layers of clothing, sunscreen, rain gear, etc.

Work with a partner and watch out for each other's safety.

Watch out for other volunteers' safety, especially when working close together.

Pace yourself, don't overexert.

Take breaks, rest, don't work continually. Drink water, eat a snack.

Follow common sense practices when lifting heavy items: use your knees, not your back.

Fill collection bags only 2/3 full, especially when handling heavy items.

Watch for poison oak, poison ivy, Giant Hogweed, or other plants to which you may be allergic. 

Leave the site if hazardous conditions, such as disturbed bee hives exist, especially if you have an allergy or are otherwise susceptible to the conditions.

Use sunscreen and mosquito repellant when outdoors

Wear a safety vest. Stay off the roadway.

Stop often to orient yourself and make sure you're not wandering close to traffic.

When working on steep slopes or banks Make sure your footing is stable. 

When encountering hazardous items: Don't touch, Mark the item and contact the Event Coordinator

Identify each item before you touch it.  If you are uncertain about an item, leave it alone.

Do not touch medical waste or hazardous materials, including syringe needles, bandages and condoms.  

Don't touch containers with unidentified liquid or material in them.

Don't touch propane gas tanks.  They may be used to manufacture illegal drugs and can explode.

In case an accident occurs    Know where the first aid kit is.

Know where the nearest medical facility is located.

Know where the nearest phone is.  If it's a cell phone, make sure you have a dial tone.  

Dial 9-1-1 if emergency medical care is required, know your location.

Coordinator: Dean Jares          

Contact Email: deanoy2k at yahoo.com      

Contact Phone Number: 503-481-4380

Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. Thanks for thinking GREEN.
                  



      

From redhead854 at msn.com  Sun Apr  5 21:53:55 2009
From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 21:53:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove High School Band Dinner Dance - and silent
	auction. The ONLY Band Fundraiser. 4/18/09
Message-ID: <BAY108-DS664908816FDFCD2A4E53987840@phx.gbl>

I know we are all suffering in this economy, but how about a nice dinner with big band jazz playing for a good cause.  The 
theme of the evening is Jazz over Manhattan.  Silent Auction. Last year the Silent auction began at 6:00 the music starts  
at 6:30 Dinner is served at 7pm,  More music with more Dancing, 7:30-815, then they start again at 8:30 for 15 more min then
Auctions close at 8:45.  It's a great time.  Besides auctions items last year we had packages where the kids would come do 
yard work, babysit, housecleaning, voice and music lessons were offered too  The kids love the music program and they ready
to work hard to make this fund raising event a success.  Tickets are $20.00 each. 

If you have a Band student or future band student  come check out the Jazz band, they will be playing great songs like, 
Smoke gets in your eyes, All of me, Take the A train, It had to be you, and Moonlight Serenade . 
Then a wonderful **Dinner is served by students. Dinner is going to be catered by Maggies Buns. This year she is also 
providing us with desert.  We are getting a lot of support from our Local Business's Ace Hardware, Jennings Mcall and our
local Paper Forest Grove News Times to name a few. 

Mr Ostwalt  is doing a great job keeping costs down for our program.  He does the very best with the budget he gets.  This
event is the ONE fundrasier we have for the band.  Band/Music is available to all students.  Forest Grove is well known for 
our commitment to the arts and music.  

*Parents we also can use more volunteers, contact Mr Ostwalt he will get you in touch with the coordinators.
**veggin dinner is also an option


Hope to see you there...
Holly 

From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Apr  6 12:16:24 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:16:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Owen Charles Fox, III - 1943 - 2009
In-Reply-To: <9AE0E29A-60D5-40E7-94EA-E31D121B0AA5@aracnet.com>
References: <793214.10820.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<9AE0E29A-60D5-40E7-94EA-E31D121B0AA5@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <49DA5508.6000001@jurislex.com>

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From tosca at prodigy.net  Mon Apr  6 23:28:37 2009
From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie Combs)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
Message-ID: <922004.93421.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hummingbirds on my plum tree blooms?yesterday....ah, spring!? Ole four-eyes can't be sure, but guess they were rufous.
?
Bonnie

From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Apr  7 09:50:08 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:50:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <922004.93421.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <922004.93421.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com>

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From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 10:53:34 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:53:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

What do you feed them to keep them round?
  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have frozen
their little hummie butts off!!

  bob

From jawelch at coho.net  Tue Apr  7 10:53:49 2009
From: jawelch at coho.net (John  Welch)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:53:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <922004.93421.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <922004.93421.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2B93DEAA2DF942CB9410D2FDAAEBADB3@welch>

We had the same experience as Bob Browning - fed the hummers all through the
winter.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bonnie Combs
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:29 PM
To: grovenet
Cc: Steve Wood
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds

Hummingbirds on my plum tree blooms?yesterday....ah, spring!? Ole four-eyes
can't be sure, but guess they were rufous.
?
Bonnie
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 11:00:41 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:00:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <868777BDD310439483AEC5CD9B8BCAC0@gerianehzkfhvy>

Steven, I find if I just keep a couple nectar feeders up, the hummies hang around all winter, and came even during all the snow we had during Dec.!


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven" <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> 
>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have frozen
> their little hummie butts off!!
> 
>  bob
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From jawelch at coho.net  Tue Apr  7 11:04:00 2009
From: jawelch at coho.net (John  Welch)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:04:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com>
	<FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch>

Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Steven
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds

What do you feed them to keep them round?
  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have frozen
their little hummie butts off!!

  bob
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com  Tue Apr  7 11:14:58 2009
From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:14:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch>
Message-ID: <200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com>

I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a lot of
different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then others
during the year. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of John Welch
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds

Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Steven
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds

What do you feed them to keep them round?
  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
frozen their little hummie butts off!!

  bob
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 11:35:37 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:35:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch>
	<200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com>
Message-ID: <D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>

One way to make homemade nectar is 1 part sugar dissolved into 4 parts water. You can add a tiny bit of red food coloring if you want.

Both the Anna's (green) and the Rufous (brown) are always around, but we also notice other non-Oregon natives ... passing through, I guess! It's interesting to look them up and see where they may have come from; sometimes the differences are pretty miniscule.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ayala, Kathy" <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


>I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a lot of
> different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
> Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then others
> during the year. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of John Welch
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steven
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> 
>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
> frozen their little hummie butts off!!
> 
>  bob
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Apr  7 11:51:18 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:51:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DBA0A6.4000105@jurislex.com>

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From jawelch at coho.net  Tue Apr  7 11:58:55 2009
From: jawelch at coho.net (John  Welch)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:58:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com>
	<D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <0E13A6246ECC4BBBAE0C730ED1788ED6@welch>

I am told that one should NOT add food coloring to the sugar water.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Geri
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:36 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds

One way to make homemade nectar is 1 part sugar dissolved into 4 parts
water. You can add a tiny bit of red food coloring if you want.

Both the Anna's (green) and the Rufous (brown) are always around, but we
also notice other non-Oregon natives ... passing through, I guess! It's
interesting to look them up and see where they may have come from; sometimes
the differences are pretty miniscule.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ayala, Kathy" <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


>I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a lot of
> different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
> Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then others
> during the year. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of John Welch
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steven
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> 
>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
> frozen their little hummie butts off!!
> 
>  bob
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 12:04:06 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:04:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com><D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<0E13A6246ECC4BBBAE0C730ED1788ED6@welch>
Message-ID: <957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>

John, I've read that, too (many times!), but at my house, they sure do prefer it. At least that's what I've learned from experience, by trying it with no coloring in it. I make 3 cups of liquid at a time, and it only takes a drop or two in that to make the water pink enough for them to notice.


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Welch" <jawelch at coho.net>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


>I am told that one should NOT add food coloring to the sugar water.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Geri
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> One way to make homemade nectar is 1 part sugar dissolved into 4 parts
> water. You can add a tiny bit of red food coloring if you want.
> 
> Both the Anna's (green) and the Rufous (brown) are always around, but we
> also notice other non-Oregon natives ... passing through, I guess! It's
> interesting to look them up and see where they may have come from; sometimes
> the differences are pretty miniscule.
> 
> Geri
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ayala, Kathy" <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
> 
> 
>>I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a lot of
>> different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
>> Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then others
>> during the year. 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of John Welch
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>> 
>> Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Steven
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>> 
>> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>> 
>> 
>>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter, right
>> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
>> frozen their little hummie butts off!!
>> 
>>  bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Apr  7 12:26:13 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:26:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com><D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>	<0E13A6246ECC4BBBAE0C730ED1788ED6@welch>
	<957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <49DBA8D5.1080708@jurislex.com>

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 13:49:11 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:49:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com><D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>	<0E13A6246ECC4BBBAE0C730ED1788ED6@welch><957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<49DBA8D5.1080708@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4DC025F2A23E472B87E6810256E970D4@gerianehzkfhvy>

That's neat, Bob -- Perhaps I'll try clear again sometime just to see what they do since it isn't the same hummies as last time I tried it.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Browning 
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


I don't know what to say, but our hummies have no problem finding the clear liquid, though it is in a feeder which is bright red with yellow "flowers" around the openings!

b
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Geri wrote: 
John, I've read that, too (many times!), but at my house, they sure do prefer it. At least that's what I've learned from experience, by trying it with no coloring in it. I make 3 cups of liquid at a time, and it only takes a drop or two in that to make the water pink enough for them to notice.

Geri----------------------------------------------------- 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 
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From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Apr  7 14:42:25 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:42:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch>
	<200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com>
	<D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <61142760-95D3-4325-AD22-26DF3CFD16C9@teleport.com>

>  It's interesting to look them up and see where they may have come  
> from; sometimes the differences are pretty miniscule.

Geri: the secret is to look at the travel stickers on their tiny  
little luggage.

>
> Geri
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ayala, Kathy" <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>
>
>> I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a lot of
>> different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
>> Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then  
>> others
>> during the year.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of John Welch
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>
>> Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Steven
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>
>> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>
>>
>>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter,  
>> right
>> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
>> frozen their little hummie butts off!!
>>
>>  bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Apr  7 14:47:44 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:47:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
In-Reply-To: <957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com><D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<0E13A6246ECC4BBBAE0C730ED1788ED6@welch>
	<957E5F57D18044498813A44B2B5BC320@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <E5DBD88B-E112-4527-A19A-1910D82634AC@teleport.com>

As long as the feeder itself is bright red, that seems attractive  
enough to them. I was sitting in my lookout tower one hot summer day,  
when a hummer flew in the door and started pecking at the red stripe  
painted on the fuel tank of my Coleman lantern.

On Apr 7, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Geri wrote:

> John, I've read that, too (many times!), but at my house, they sure  
> do prefer it. At least that's what I've learned from experience, by  
> trying it with no coloring in it. I make 3 cups of liquid at a  
> time, and it only takes a drop or two in that to make the water  
> pink enough for them to notice.
>
>
> Geri
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Welch" <jawelch at coho.net>
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>
>
>> I am told that one should NOT add food coloring to the sugar water.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Geri
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:36 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>
>> One way to make homemade nectar is 1 part sugar dissolved into 4  
>> parts
>> water. You can add a tiny bit of red food coloring if you want.
>>
>> Both the Anna's (green) and the Rufous (brown) are always around,  
>> but we
>> also notice other non-Oregon natives ... passing through, I guess!  
>> It's
>> interesting to look them up and see where they may have come from;  
>> sometimes
>> the differences are pretty miniscule.
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ayala, Kathy" <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>
>>
>>> I use a mix that I purchase at Bi-Mart, which you can get at a  
>>> lot of
>>> different stores. It works very good also and we have a quite large
>>> Brown and Green one that stays around move of the year. And then  
>>> others
>>> during the year.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of John Welch
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:04 AM
>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>>
>>> Just sugar water (4 or 5 to one).
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Steven
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:54 AM
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>>
>>> What do you feed them to keep them round?
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:50 AM
>>>  To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list
>>>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
>>>
>>>
>>>  Actually, Pat and I had a couple of hummie visitors all winter,  
>>> right
>>> through the worst of December. I would have thought they would have
>>> frozen their little hummie butts off!!
>>>
>>>  bob
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 15:24:39 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:24:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
References: <49DB8440.8090905@jurislex.com><FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNAECMMEAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><32D4BDCDEF194BC4ADA142F511E15DB5@welch><200904071814.n37IEojs008661@barrierM241.nike.com><D90FB7CC06C64134A723FA9F1D337DC1@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<61142760-95D3-4325-AD22-26DF3CFD16C9@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1038F6AC7D5B43D98982C3FC048DA96D@gerianehzkfhvy>

Oh, thanks for the tip, Walt!  ;-)

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds


>>  It's interesting to look them up and see where they may have come  
>> from; sometimes the differences are pretty miniscule.
> 
> Geri: the secret is to look at the travel stickers on their tiny  
> little luggage.
> 
>>
>> Geri
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  7 16:03:13 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Poetry tonight at the library!
In-Reply-To: <192902.9318.qm@web34506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <274197.37097.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



Celebrating National Poetry Month - the Friends of the Forest Grove Library invite you to a poetry reading this evening, Tuesday, 4/7/09 at 7 PM in the Rogers Room at the library, 2114 Pacific Ave.

Pacific University Professor and poet, Doyle Walls, will read from his works.

"I believe in, and write accessible poetry.  A reader, or listener, does not have to be conversant with the history of poetry to follow what I am doing."  Doyle Walls




      

From AumaMarie at aol.com  Tue Apr  7 17:55:49 2009
From: AumaMarie at aol.com (AumaMarie at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:55:49 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummingbirds
Message-ID: <ca1.5311b118.370d5015@aol.com>

My kids on Blooming Fernhill had hummers all winter too.  During the  coldest 
weather they had to put a heater on the feeder to keep it  thawed.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221421323x1201417385/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62)

From theresacus at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  8 03:55:28 2009
From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 53, Issue 7 Hummingbirds
Message-ID: <288163.33670.qm@web34503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>





Keith and I are avid bird watchers.? The green ones, with the rosy red chins are Anna's hummingbirds.? They do winter over here.? We keep a light on the feeder to keep the necter fluid when it gets really cold.? We actually had one feeding on our suet feeder when it was really really cold.? I was very surprised.? The other one that is commonly in the area is the roufus hummingbird.? They have been in the area for about a month now.? They are a rust color.? They both seem to really like the wild current, daphne, and the Japanese quince that are in my yard.? We were outside a week ago and saw the male swooning the female.? She was sitting on the very top of the lilac tree chirping, while he would fly way up high to where you could not even identify him.? He would swoop down very fast towards her and then fly way back up again and do it all over again.? This went on for about 15 minutes until a kestral flew over.? 
?
By the way, if you have not been out to the wetlands, try to give yourself a gift, because the male birds are in their full plumage, and dancing like crazy for the?hens.? The shovelers are already paired up and doing their spinning routine.???The geese are already sitting on eggs too.? Don't forget your binoculars either...? :)? Enjoy the "cheap"? entertainment.? 
?
Theresa Carter


      

From phoenixacm at aol.com  Thu Apr  9 13:28:52 2009
From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:28:52 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Women get treatment on Earth Day!
Message-ID: <8CB8768EE539698-BB8-BD2@WEBMAIL-DF09.sysops.aol.com>

Hi, Grovenuts!

Just wanted to let you know about my Earth Day event.  I will be at FG 
Curves from 9 to 1 to talk to any women who want to ask questions about 
acupuncture and Chinese medicine.  Also, for a donation of any amount 
to Animals Asia Foundation, I will do acupuncture demonstrations.  Call 
503-359-5454 to sign up.

Sometimes when I am talking to groups about Chinese medicine I tell 
them that it is based on observation of nature and immense respect for 
nature.  Then I ask for a show of hands of those who feel that they 
have immense respect for nature and many hands go up.  Then I ask those 
who had their hands up if in the past week they had delayed going to 
the bathroom until they just couldn't hold it any longer, or stayed up 
late at night working on a project even though they knew they had to 
get up early in the morning, or (my pet peeve) eaten junk food even 
though they knew it would make them feel bad and probably damage their 
health?

In the US we tend to think of nature as something that is out there 
somewhere, in a park or wilderness area and deny the reality that we 
are part of nature.  So, recognize your place in nature this Earth Day 
and help save the moon bears at the same time!  If you would like to 
know more about Animals Asia Foundation, check out www.animalsasia.org.

I would love to see you on Earth Day!

Jane B-P




Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


From ebgenly at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 11 13:37:07 2009
From: ebgenly at yahoo.com (Elisabeth Genly)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Needed: poodle to pet
Message-ID: <982019.20157.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just spent a week visiting a friend who had a toy poodle, and I did not get sick with allergies, in fact I was fine.  This was a revelation to me, as I have always had terrible allergies to most all animals with fur.  I miss having a dog, I really do!

I would like to pet a standard poodle (purebred) and see if I remain reaction-free -- so does anybody have a big poodle who would enjoy hanging out with me for a little while?  My family would be SO happy if I have finally found a dog breed I don't react to!

Thanks!

Beth
-- and check out my blog: www.bethgenly.com



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Apr 11 13:46:23 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:46:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Needed: poodle to pet
In-Reply-To: <982019.20157.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <982019.20157.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <93422B0D-2656-4EB8-8B29-595D81674E03@verizon.net>

A Portuguese Water dog is also supposedly low on the allergy scale,  
if a poodle doesn't work out for you.

Katie



On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Elisabeth Genly wrote:

> I just spent a week visiting a friend who had a toy poodle, and I  
> did not get sick with allergies, in fact I was fine.  This was a  
> revelation to me, as I have always had terrible allergies to most  
> all animals with fur.  I miss having a dog, I really do!
>
> I would like to pet a standard poodle (purebred) and see if I  
> remain reaction-free -- so does anybody have a big poodle who would  
> enjoy hanging out with me for a little while?  My family would be  
> SO happy if I have finally found a dog breed I don't react to!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Beth
> -- and check out my blog: www.bethgenly.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 11 13:51:38 2009
From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Needed: poodle to pet
Message-ID: <85107.77284.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I also believe long hair dachshund's are also allergy free, but I think that depends on whether you are allergic to the fur or the dander on any of these hypoallergenic dogs

good luck

Vickie

    What can you do? Check out these ideas:
click to help these organizations, it's quick, easy & free
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=4&link=ctg_trs_home_from_lit_home_sitenav

  http://www.climatecrisis.net/takeaction/whatyoucando/index2.html
  
  U.S. oil companies are reporting record profits even as motorists  struggle to deal with the rising prices. Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips  Ltd. and ExxonMobil Corp. combined to earn more than $15.5 billion in  the first three months of 2006.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12531620/
        
        
        
        
   

--- On Sat, 4/11/09, Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Needed: poodle to pet
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 1:46 PM

A Portuguese Water dog is also supposedly low on the allergy scale,? 
if a poodle doesn't work out for you.

Katie



On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Elisabeth Genly wrote:

> I just spent a week visiting a friend who had a toy poodle, and I? 
> did not get sick with allergies, in fact I was fine.? This was a? 
> revelation to me, as I have always had terrible allergies to most? 
> all animals with fur.? I miss having a dog, I really do!
>
> I would like to pet a standard poodle (purebred) and see if I? 
> remain reaction-free -- so does anybody have a big poodle who would? 
> enjoy hanging out with me for a little while?? My family would be? 
> SO happy if I have finally found a dog breed I don't react to!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Beth
> -- and check out my blog: www.bethgenly.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Apr 13 14:58:11 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:58:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :
	Yahoo! Tech
Message-ID: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090413/9f580af2/attachment.html 

From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 13 16:32:48 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:32:48 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
 :	Yahoo! Tech
In-Reply-To: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W558098CA6E1D72FB16CD32A97F0@phx.gbl>


I don't receive the middle icon but my virus scan says everything is OK.
Glenn
http://www.braketimecoffee.com

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:58:11 -0700
From: rab at jurislex.com
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :	Yahoo! Tech








Read this and then click on the chart and see what you get!!



bob

+++++++++++++++++++++++++



http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it-works/







_________________________________________________________________
Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with Internet Explorer 8. 
http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=B037MSN55C0701A

From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Apr 13 16:59:38 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:59:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
 : Yahoo! Tech
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W558098CA6E1D72FB16CD32A97F0@phx.gbl>
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
	<BAY127-W558098CA6E1D72FB16CD32A97F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F2271C0D-1A6A-41B1-B5A9-F1B8A813461D@verizon.net>

That was the same for me too (couldn't see the middle icon). I read  
the comments about this test on another site and the missing middle  
icon was common. ( I run a Mac with no windows software so I wasn't  
concerned.)
I also tried to go directly to the site listed as the middle icon and  
it would not load. Or more accurately, it took so long I gave up  
waiting. I don't know if it would eventually load if I waited long  
enough. (That was another common issue listed in the comments.)
The third thing is that the website for this test has been inundated  
with hits and that is causing people to worry that they cannot even  
do the eye test. So if that applies to anyone, I would suggest that  
they try again later when it's not so busy.

Katie

On Apr 13, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:

>
> I don't receive the middle icon but my virus scan says everything  
> is OK.
> Glenn
> http://www.braketimecoffee.com
>
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:58:11 -0700
> From: rab at jurislex.com
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher  
> Null :	Yahoo! Tech
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this and then click on the chart and see what you get!!
>
>
>
> bob
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
> http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it- 
> works/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with  
> Internet Explorer 8.
> http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx? 
> ocid=B037MSN55C0701A
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 13 17:13:25 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:13:25 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
 : Yahoo! Tech
In-Reply-To: <F2271C0D-1A6A-41B1-B5A9-F1B8A813461D@verizon.net>
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
	<BAY127-W558098CA6E1D72FB16CD32A97F0@phx.gbl> 
	<F2271C0D-1A6A-41B1-B5A9-F1B8A813461D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W209FFA396AADDD009DBB2A97C0@phx.gbl>


Oh, good Katie.  Thanks, that makes me feel better.  I just had to replace my desk top computer because it kept having boot up problems to a point that the recovery disks no longer worked and I had one of my son's computer whizzes help me out with it (unfortunately he had to return to school in Corvallis before he finished helping me with it) but I finally gave up on it when my son decided he needed a new notebook for Med School (laptop) that COSTCO had so I bought that for him and I took his desktop (since we had purchased them together when they were new 2 years ago).  I was starting to have the same boot up problem with this one and I was worried that another virus was causing it.  I purchased a registry software product and that found 300 problems so hopefully that was my boot up problem with this computer and not that dad gum virus.  What is with people that they want to write these programs?  I simply do not understand the need to harm others.
Glenn
http://www.braketimecoffee.com

========================================================

> From: allnutt at verizon.net
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:59:38 -0700
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null : Yahoo! Tech
> 
> That was the same for me too (couldn't see the middle icon). I read  
> the comments about this test on another site and the missing middle  
> icon was common. ( I run a Mac with no windows software so I wasn't  
> concerned.)
> I also tried to go directly to the site listed as the middle icon and  
> it would not load. Or more accurately, it took so long I gave up  
> waiting. I don't know if it would eventually load if I waited long  
> enough. (That was another common issue listed in the comments.)
> The third thing is that the website for this test has been inundated  
> with hits and that is causing people to worry that they cannot even  
> do the eye test. So if that applies to anyone, I would suggest that  
> they try again later when it's not so busy.
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
> 
> >
> > I don't receive the middle icon but my virus scan says everything  
> > is OK.
> > Glenn
> > http://www.braketimecoffee.com
> >
> > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:58:11 -0700
> > From: rab at jurislex.com
> > To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher  
> > Null :	Yahoo! Tech
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this and then click on the chart and see what you get!!
> >
> >
> >
> > bob
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> >
> > http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it- 
> > works/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with  
> > Internet Explorer 8.
> > http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx? 
> > ocid=B037MSN55C0701A
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
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From edavie at verizon.net  Mon Apr 13 17:33:54 2009
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:33:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
 :Yahoo! Tech
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <5E7FD0F7901A4EDEB037A2CEA9D70307@EDavie>

Worked fine for me.
Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Browning
  To: Grovenet
  Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:58 PM
  Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it 
works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech


  Read this and then click on the chart and see 
what you get!!

  bob
  +++++++++++++++++++++++++

  http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it-works/






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Apr 13 17:58:27 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:58:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
	:Yahoo! Tech
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
	<5E7FD0F7901A4EDEB037A2CEA9D70307@EDavie>
Message-ID: <CF0A112AC0F94172A40F3A98A4A706BB@gerianehzkfhvy>

Same here.  :)
Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech


> Worked fine for me.
> Ed
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Bob Browning
>  To: Grovenet
>  Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:58 PM
>  Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it 
> works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> 
> 
>  Read this and then click on the chart and see 
> what you get!!
> 
>  bob
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
>  http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it-works/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>  _______________________________________________
>  GroveNet mailing list
>  GroveNet at rdrop.com
>  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 13 18:25:10 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:25:10 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher
	Null	:Yahoo! Tech
In-Reply-To: <CF0A112AC0F94172A40F3A98A4A706BB@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
	<5E7FD0F7901A4EDEB037A2CEA9D70307@EDavie> 
	<CF0A112AC0F94172A40F3A98A4A706BB@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W471F6C433AD693D48F7EEDA97C0@phx.gbl>


it works fine for me when I use IE, but I do not get the middle icon if I use Firefox which is my default browser.  Wonder why that is.

Glenn

http://www.braketimecoffee.com
 
> From: g-g-steele at comcast.net
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:58:27 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> 
> Same here. :)
> Geri
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> 
> 
> > Worked fine for me.
> > Ed
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Bob Browning
> > To: Grovenet
> > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:58 PM
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it 
> > works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> > 
> > 
> > Read this and then click on the chart and see 
> > what you get!!
> > 
> > bob
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > 
> > http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it-works/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Apr 13 18:29:26 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:29:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works :
	ChristopherNull	:Yahoo! Tech
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com><5E7FD0F7901A4EDEB037A2CEA9D70307@EDavie>
	<CF0A112AC0F94172A40F3A98A4A706BB@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<BAY127-W471F6C433AD693D48F7EEDA97C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F033811565344000B62E1D9CD2328B95@gerianehzkfhvy>

That is odd, huh? BTW, I was using Firefox when it worked fine for me.
Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Berkheimer" <braketimecoffee at hotmail.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : ChristopherNull :Yahoo! Tech



it works fine for me when I use IE, but I do not get the middle icon if I use Firefox which is my default browser.  Wonder why that is.

Glenn

http://www.braketimecoffee.com
 
> From: g-g-steele at comcast.net
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:58:27 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> 
> Same here. :)
> Geri
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> 
> 
> > Worked fine for me.
> > Ed
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Bob Browning
> > To: Grovenet
> > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:58 PM
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it 
> > works : Christopher Null :Yahoo! Tech
> > 
> > 
> > Read this and then click on the chart and see 
> > what you get!!
> > 
> > bob
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > 
> > http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it-works/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009
_______________________________________________
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Apr 13 20:37:01 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:37:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: Follow up
In-Reply-To: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
References: <49E3B573.5070003@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <C4452025-CF83-41AE-9A05-5BB7A3FD1410@verizon.net>

After letting the people on the east coast go to bed I tried this  
again and got all of the images. : )

Katie

On Apr 13, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Read this and then click on the chart and see what you get!!
>
> bob
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it- 
> works/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From Jamsm at aol.com  Tue Apr 14 08:19:51 2009
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:19:51 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null
	: Yahoo! ...
Message-ID: <c7b.530b9d54.37160397@aol.com>

Hi all .. again... 
Glenn..  I would like to help you check out your computer.  
I  may even be able to help you resurrect the other (first one you  used) 
computer.
 
 
In a message dated 4/13/2009 8:13:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
braketimecoffee at hotmail.com writes:


Oh,  good Katie.  Thanks, that makes me feel better.  I just had to  
replace my desk top computer because it kept having boot up problems to a  point 
that the recovery disks no longer worked and I had one of my son's  computer 
whizzes help me out with it (unfortunately he had to return to school  in 
Corvallis before he finished helping me with it) but I finally gave up on  it 
when my son decided he needed a new notebook for Med School (laptop) that  
COSTCO had so I bought that for him and I took his desktop (since we had  
purchased them together when they were new 2 years ago).  I was starting  to 
have the same boot up problem with this one and I was worried that another  
virus was causing it.  I purchased a registry software product and that  found 
300 problems so hopefully that was my boot up problem with this computer  
and not that dad gum virus.  What is with people that they want to write  
these programs?  I simply do not understand the need to harm  others.
Glenn
http://www.braketimecoffee.com

========================================================

>  From: allnutt at verizon.net
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:59:38  -0700
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker  Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher 
Null : Yahoo! Tech
> 
> That  was the same for me too (couldn't see the middle icon). I read  
>  the comments about this test on another site and the missing middle   
> icon was common. ( I run a Mac with no windows software so I  wasn't  
> concerned.)
> I also tried to go directly to the  site listed as the middle icon and  
> it would not load. Or more  accurately, it took so long I gave up  
> waiting. I don't know if  it would eventually load if I waited long  
> enough. (That was  another common issue listed in the comments.)
> The third thing is that  the website for this test has been inundated  
> with hits and that  is causing people to worry that they cannot even  
> do the eye  test. So if that applies to anyone, I would suggest that  
> they  try again later when it's not so busy.
> 
> Katie
> 
>  On Apr 13, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
> 
>  >
> > I don't receive the middle icon but my virus scan says  everything  
> > is OK.
> > Glenn
> >  http://www.braketimecoffee.com
> >
> > Date: Mon, 13 Apr  2009 14:58:11 -0700
> > From: rab at jurislex.com
> > To:  grovenet at rdrop.com
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How  it works : Christopher  
> > Null :    Yahoo!  Tech
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> > Read this and then click on the  chart and see what you get!!
> >
> >
> >
>  > bob
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  >
> >
> >
> >  http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it- 
>  > works/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> >  _________________________________________________________________
> >  Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with  
>  > Internet Explorer 8.
> >  http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx? 
> >  ocid=B037MSN55C0701A
> >  _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing  list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
>  _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing  list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover  Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.  
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ates1_042009
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**************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
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mpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62)

From ebgenly at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 14 11:06:06 2009
From: ebgenly at yahoo.com (Elisabeth Genly)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] name of Thai restaurant?
In-Reply-To: <460910.71414.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <460910.71414.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <441386.79038.qm@web38004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Pac Thai.
Cecelia Warren is selling gift certificates to it to support her daughter's Campfire Girl troop (instead of candy bars -- yay!).
Beth

 

________________________________
From: Alana Graham <isis23ra at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:18:24 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] name of Thai restaurant?

What's the name of the newish Thai Restaurant in Forest Grove?

thanks

Alana



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From ebgenly at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 14 11:08:18 2009
From: ebgenly at yahoo.com (Elisabeth Genly)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Massage & Reflexology Demos & talk 6:30 tonite 4/14
	LIBRARY
In-Reply-To: <460910.71414.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <460910.71414.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <31353.26415.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Demos & Talks
onMassage
& 
Reflexology
 
With Kim Morley?Franklin LMT, Loretta
Higgins LMT,  Conny Carleton, CR
 
Tuesday, April 14th
6:30 ? 7:30 pm
Forest Grove Library
 
 
Kim,
Loretta & Conny will do demos and discuss the benefits of Massage and
Reflexology, giving self techniques to take home and use.
 
This is a new monthly Health Talk presented by
the Forest Grove Healing Arts Network.  Look forward to more talks the second Tuesday
of each month at the Library!  For more information
about FGHAN, visit our website at www.FGHAN.net.  (No talk in May, due to conflicts at the library, but a new one for sure in June!)


      

From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 14 15:20:04 2009
From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] name of Thai restaurant?
Message-ID: <300896.69453.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

great to know

we at the Forest Grove Community School eat there quite often, please stop in, I'm certain someone would like to buy some.

Vickie

--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Elisabeth Genly <ebgenly at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Elisabeth Genly <ebgenly at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] name of Thai restaurant?
To: isis23ra at yahoo.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:06 AM

Pac Thai.
Cecelia Warren is selling gift certificates to it to support her daughter's Campfire Girl troop (instead of candy bars -- yay!).
Beth

 

________________________________
From: Alana Graham <isis23ra at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:18:24 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] name of Thai restaurant?

What's the name of the newish Thai Restaurant in Forest Grove?

thanks

Alana



? ? ? 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



? ? ? 
_______________________________________________
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GroveNet at rdrop.com
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From chuck at grovenet.net  Wed Apr 15 11:51:45 2009
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:51:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A feel good story - just love these.
In-Reply-To: <300896.69453.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <300896.69453.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49E62CC1.1030901@grovenet.net>

Several years ago it was Paul Potts, this year on Britian's Got Talent 
it's Susan Boyle.  From laughing and eye rolling to jaw dropping and 
cheering.  Makes me wonder where these people come from....I think Susan 
has a very bright future ahead of her.

http://magicofbelieving.com/susan-boyle-britians-got-talent/

enjoy

chuck

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Apr 15 12:15:42 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:15:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A feel good story - just love these.
In-Reply-To: <49E62CC1.1030901@grovenet.net>
References: <300896.69453.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49E62CC1.1030901@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <F4621B82-E691-468C-A04E-20EB9CA2B1D7@verizon.net>

Thanks Chuck. It is nice to see someone have a chance to let their  
talent shine.

Katie

On Apr 15, 2009, at 11:51 AM, chuck wrote:

> Several years ago it was Paul Potts, this year on Britian's Got Talent
> it's Susan Boyle.  From laughing and eye rolling to jaw dropping and
> cheering.  Makes me wonder where these people come from....I think  
> Susan
> has a very bright future ahead of her.
>
> http://magicofbelieving.com/susan-boyle-britians-got-talent/
>
> enjoy
>
> chuck
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From khourym at verizon.net  Wed Apr 15 15:49:39 2009
From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:49:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] For the weather buffs: Record Setting March PDO
References: <000e01c9bde6$dc191990$6400a8c0@PierceDesktop>
Message-ID: <01B78EE5-3936-4A5E-AD0F-A34652846A9F@verizon.net>

>
> Good morning:
>
> Here are a few comments about the amazingly cold March PDO figure  
> just released yesterday ---
>
> * March 2009's PDO figure of -1.59 is officially the coldest March  
> PDO figure since 1972.
>
> * The current 12 month running average is now -1.46. That is the  
> also the single coldest 12 month running average since 1970-1971 and  
> is in the top 5 of all-time (109 years) coldest 12 month running  
> averages.
>
> * March's PDO is the 5th coldest March reading in 109 years (from  
> 1900-2009) and is ranked as follows ---
>
> 1956  -2.56
> 1972  -2.09
> 1951  -1.90
> 1971  -1.68
> 2009  -1.59
>
> Historical notes --- December of 1972 featured one of the coldest  
> (if not "the" coldest) December arctic outbreak in recorded history  
> in the Portland area. 1951 also featured a strong south windstorm in  
> December.
>
> Steve Pierce
> Executive Councilor - Oregon AMS


From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Apr 15 17:08:36 2009
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:08:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] For the weather buffs: Record Setting March PDO
References: <000e01c9bde6$dc191990$6400a8c0@PierceDesktop>
	<01B78EE5-3936-4A5E-AD0F-A34652846A9F@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <30625D98091A45F3B6B115E030751BBB@EDavie>

Just out of curiosity, what's a PDO?
Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Martha Khoury
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 3:49 PM
  Subject: [Grovenet] For the weather buffs: 
Record Setting March PDO


  >
  > Good morning:
  >
  > Here are a few comments about the amazingly 
cold March PDO figure
  > just released yesterday ---
  >
  > * March 2009's PDO figure of -1.59 is 
officially the coldest March
  > PDO figure since 1972.
  >
  > * The current 12 month running average is 
now -1.46. That is the
  > also the single coldest 12 month running 
average since 1970-1971 and
  > is in the top 5 of all-time (109 years) 
coldest 12 month running
  > averages.
  >
  > * March's PDO is the 5th coldest March reading 
in 109 years (from
  > 1900-2009) and is ranked as follows ---
  >
  > 1956  -2.56
  > 1972  -2.09
  > 1951  -1.90
  > 1971  -1.68
  > 2009  -1.59
  >
  > Historical notes --- December of 1972 featured 
one of the coldest
  > (if not "the" coldest) December arctic 
outbreak in recorded history
  > in the Portland area. 1951 also featured a 
strong south windstorm in
  > December.
  >
  > Steve Pierce
  > Executive Councilor - Oregon AMS

  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 15 19:02:01 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:02:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Pacific decadal oscillation - Wikipedia,
	the free encyclopedia
Message-ID: <49E69199.6070106@jurislex.com>

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From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Apr 15 19:35:40 2009
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:35:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Pacific decadal oscillation - Wikipedia,
 the free encyclopedia
References: <49E69199.6070106@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <E72627C3A8D84F2FAAA4AAEE55A799EF@EDavie>

Yes. I found it. Thanks,
Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Browning
  To: Grovenet
  Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:02 PM
  Subject: [Grovenet] Pacific decadal 
oscillation - Wikipedia,the free encyclopedia


  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_decadal_oscillation

  -


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 15 22:26:17 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:26:17 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher
	Null	: Yahoo! ...
In-Reply-To: <c7b.530b9d54.37160397@aol.com>
References: <c7b.530b9d54.37160397@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W26539E5D5A1E211482A044A97A0@phx.gbl>


Thanks for the offer.  I would love to get it up and running again.  I have just pushed it aside for the time being and was going to wait until Shawn (my son's buddy from school) arrives back here to help me with it but fire away if you think you can.  Much appreciated.
Glenn


> From: Jamsm at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:19:51 -0400
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher Null	: Yahoo! ...
> 
> Hi all .. again... 
> Glenn..  I would like to help you check out your computer.  
> I  may even be able to help you resurrect the other (first one you  used) 
> computer.
>  
>  
> In a message dated 4/13/2009 8:13:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> braketimecoffee at hotmail.com writes:
> 
> 
> Oh,  good Katie.  Thanks, that makes me feel better.  I just had to  
> replace my desk top computer because it kept having boot up problems to a  point 
> that the recovery disks no longer worked and I had one of my son's  computer 
> whizzes help me out with it (unfortunately he had to return to school  in 
> Corvallis before he finished helping me with it) but I finally gave up on  it 
> when my son decided he needed a new notebook for Med School (laptop) that  
> COSTCO had so I bought that for him and I took his desktop (since we had  
> purchased them together when they were new 2 years ago).  I was starting  to 
> have the same boot up problem with this one and I was worried that another  
> virus was causing it.  I purchased a registry software product and that  found 
> 300 problems so hopefully that was my boot up problem with this computer  
> and not that dad gum virus.  What is with people that they want to write  
> these programs?  I simply do not understand the need to harm  others.
> Glenn
> http://www.braketimecoffee.com
> 
> ========================================================
> 
> >  From: allnutt at verizon.net
> > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:59:38  -0700
> > To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conficker  Eye Chart: How it works : Christopher 
> Null : Yahoo! Tech
> > 
> > That  was the same for me too (couldn't see the middle icon). I read  
> >  the comments about this test on another site and the missing middle   
> > icon was common. ( I run a Mac with no windows software so I  wasn't  
> > concerned.)
> > I also tried to go directly to the  site listed as the middle icon and  
> > it would not load. Or more  accurately, it took so long I gave up  
> > waiting. I don't know if  it would eventually load if I waited long  
> > enough. (That was  another common issue listed in the comments.)
> > The third thing is that  the website for this test has been inundated  
> > with hits and that  is causing people to worry that they cannot even  
> > do the eye  test. So if that applies to anyone, I would suggest that  
> > they  try again later when it's not so busy.
> > 
> > Katie
> > 
> >  On Apr 13, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
> > 
> >  >
> > > I don't receive the middle icon but my virus scan says  everything  
> > > is OK.
> > > Glenn
> > >  http://www.braketimecoffee.com
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 13 Apr  2009 14:58:11 -0700
> > > From: rab at jurislex.com
> > > To:  grovenet at rdrop.com
> > > Subject: [Grovenet] Conficker Eye Chart: How  it works : Christopher  
> > > Null :    Yahoo!  Tech
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >  >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this and then click on the  chart and see what you get!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >  > bob
> > >
> > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >  >
> > >
> > >
> > >  http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/138448/conficker-eye-chart-how-it- 
> >  > works/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >  >
> > >
> > >
> > >  _________________________________________________________________
> > >  Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with  
> >  > Internet Explorer 8.
> > >  http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx? 
> > >  ocid=B037MSN55C0701A
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing  list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > >  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > 
> >  _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing  list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Rediscover  Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.  
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Upd
> ates1_042009
> _______________________________________________
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> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> **************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
> Steps! 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221421325x1201417411/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26h
> mpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62)
> _______________________________________________
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From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 15 22:30:47 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:30:47 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] A feel good story - just love these.
In-Reply-To: <F4621B82-E691-468C-A04E-20EB9CA2B1D7@verizon.net>
References: <300896.69453.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49E62CC1.1030901@grovenet.net> 
	<F4621B82-E691-468C-A04E-20EB9CA2B1D7@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W113F03C1CE6FEF87A1CA3DA97A0@phx.gbl>


SHE WAS JUST WONDERFUL, so glad to see Simon get the laugh on him for a change.

> From: allnutt at verizon.net
> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:15:42 -0700
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A feel good story - just love these.
> 
> Thanks Chuck. It is nice to see someone have a chance to let their  
> talent shine.
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Apr 15, 2009, at 11:51 AM, chuck wrote:
> 
> > Several years ago it was Paul Potts, this year on Britian's Got Talent
> > it's Susan Boyle.  From laughing and eye rolling to jaw dropping and
> > cheering.  Makes me wonder where these people come from....I think  
> > Susan
> > has a very bright future ahead of her.
> >
> > http://magicofbelieving.com/susan-boyle-britians-got-talent/
> >
> > enjoy
> >
> > chuck
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

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From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 16 15:20:21 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:20:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk on legacy of NAFTA in Mexico, Fri.4/17, 4:30 PM
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W113F03C1CE6FEF87A1CA3DA97A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <892493.69073.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


MEXICAN AGRICULTURAL EXPERT SPEAKS TO LEGACY OF NAFTA AND ITS EFFECTS ON FAMILIES

Mendoza Explores NAFTA?s Impact on Families, Food Security and Migration in Oaxaca, Mexico


Date:  Friday, April 17
Time:  4:30
Place:  Taylor Auditorium, Marsh Hall (see www.pacificu.edu for directions)

Free and open to the Public.  Reception to follow

April 2009.  Baldemar Mendoza Jimenez, an agro-ecologist from Oaxaca, Mexico, will visit communities across the Pacific Northwest throughout the month of April 2009.  Mr. Mendoza weaves connections to demonstrate how globalization, the neoliberal economic model and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) have contributed significantly to the increase in migration and poverty in Oaxaca, Mexico.  At Pacific University Mr. Mendoza will focus on the impact of NAFTA on families.

Baldemar Mendoza Jim?nez works for the Union of Organizations of the Sierra Juarez of Oaxaca (UNOSJO) by supporting indigenous communities to practice organic and traditional agriculture.  He has participated in UNOSJO?s informational campaign regarding the contamination of native corn by genetically modified corn.  Mr. Mendoza promotes sustainable agriculture using the farmer to farmer method to attain food sovereignty.

"NAFTA took away price guarantees for corn and other products,? said Mendoza.  ?Farmers could not make ends meet and looked for alternatives that would generate income.  They abandoned their lands, they left to work in maquilas and they emigrated to the United States.  Migration has brought the abandonment of the countryside, family disintegration and a decomposition of the tightly-woven community.  Community practices that were an integral part to indigenous Oaxacan communities have been lost.?

Mr. Mendoza will be hosted by Witness for Peace Northwest, with complete Spanish to English interpretation provided by Witness for Peace Mexico Team member Ann Thiesen.  Witness for Peace is a politically independent, nationwide grassroots organization of people committed to nonviolence and led by faith and conscience. WFP?s mission is to support peace, justice and sustainable economies in the Americas by changing U.S. policies and corporate practices which contribute to poverty and oppression in Latin America and the Caribbean.

For more information about this tour or Witness for Peace, or to set up an interview with Baldemar Mendoza Jimenez, please contact Beth Poteet at 509.995.2571 or wfpnw at witnessforpeace.org.  Visit www.witnessforpeace.org/northwest.

Pacific Event Co-Sponsors:  Center for Gender Equity, Humanitarian Center, Environmental Studies, Department of Economics, Students for a Democratic Society, School of Occupational Therapy, Politics and Law Forum, Department of Politics and Government







      


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 17 14:01:29 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove Community Gardens Ribbon-Cutting Ceremony
	Saturday, 4/25/09, at 11 AM
Message-ID: <352877.92852.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

ATTENTION GARDENING ENTHUSIASTS:

On Monday evening, 4/13, the Forest Grove City Council
approved establishment of the Forest Grove Community Gardens and
donated a
1.25-acre lot for its use on the north side of town near the
intersection of 22nd and Maple Streets. Volunteers have been working
feverishly on the site to construct an underground irrigation system,
erect a fence, rototill, and divide the lot into garden plots formore than 200 Forest Grove families. Plans are to charge participants a
nominal $30 fee per
growing season and will offer discounted fees to those who can prove
eligibilty for food stamps. Ashland manufacturer, Naturalyards Raised
Beds, has also donated six, 4'x6'x22" cedar raised beds for use by
handicapped and elderly gardeners. A ribbon-cutting ceremony is planned
for Saturday, 4/25, at 11 AM. 

For more information about the community
garden or to sign up for a plot, please go to http://www.fggardens.org/

Note:  Volunteers are needed for assisting with assembling an underground irrigation system and erecting a fence around the gardens. Also, donations are needed for fence posts, 2x4s, and chicken wire. Charitable donations are tax deductible. If you are interested in assisting, please contact Walt Wentz at 503-357-4577.

Holly Tsur
Forest Grove Community Gardens Committee Member


      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 18 09:30:10 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] FG Community Gardens Needs Fence Posts, Garden Tools,
	Wheelbarrows
Message-ID: <284916.65226.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of the following materials:

* Wood or metal fence posts
? Wheelbarrows
? Unwanted garden tools, particularly hoes and rakes

If you wish to donate any of these items, please contact Walt Wentz at 503-357-4577. Donations are tax deductible.

Holly Tsur  



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Apr 20 10:18:15 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:18:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Numbers
References: <200904201611.n3KGBW5O007955@smtp.uoregon.edu>
Message-ID: <C4FE361B-2075-464D-8813-031C709C360F@verizon.net>

Warning: this is only for movie lovers and people who have 10 minutes  
of time to totally waste.

Katie


Begin forwarded message:

>
> Subject: Re: Mathemagical Number 7
>
> Speaking of numbers:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FExqG6LdWHU
>
>
>


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Apr 20 10:34:50 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:34:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Numbers
References: <200904201611.n3KGBW5O007955@smtp.uoregon.edu>
	<C4FE361B-2075-464D-8813-031C709C360F@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <D0F4BC2780E14914B9E9CD0F18085ED6@gerianehzkfhvy>

That was interesting (decided to use 10 minutes!) ... !

: )  Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:18 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Numbers


> Warning: this is only for movie lovers and people who have 10 minutes  
> of time to totally waste.
> 
> Katie
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>>
>> Subject: Re: Mathemagical Number 7
>>
>> Speaking of numbers:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FExqG6LdWHU
>>
>>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Apr 20 11:48:08 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:48:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
Message-ID: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>

Hello, All!
On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of  
their Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old  
hands and new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community  
Garden site on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic  
pipe and  fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine  
(so called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to  
cutting, gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the  
completed sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.  
After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a  
"crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana--  
called a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home- 
made cookies.
Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one end  
of the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers  
projecting 18 inches into the air, the real scale of the project  
becomes obvious. That part of the job is DONE!
Great work, all!
Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be  
done until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't  
want any sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be  
another good team project, and should go quicker with many hands--  
and then it's time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush  
blanket of weeds that have flourished in that fertile soil.
Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the  
26th, which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they  
install the fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed  
gardens are installed just north of the parking lot.
But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady,  
Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal  
sides and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ 
picnic site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was  
damaged during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that  
can be easily replaced with a few 2x4s.

Still to to:
? Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system)
? Backfill trenches
* Get first cultivation done.
* Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the  
pile just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.

(Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as  
work continues)

?  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
? Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team  
job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!

Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday  
when the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to  
draw in more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!

We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some  
more and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a  
definite 30 out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly  
appreciated!
We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden and  
to replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!

Walt





From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 20 18:27:14 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
Message-ID: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling the beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.

Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as indicated below.

Holly Tsur
feralcattamer at yahoo.com



      

From tom at efnursery.com  Mon Apr 20 21:10:11 2009
From: tom at efnursery.com (tom at efnursery.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>

Hi,
    How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up? 
Take Care, Tom




 The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling the
> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>
> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
> indicated below.
>
> Holly Tsur
> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 20 23:14:30 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
Message-ID: <265774.1445.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Tom,

The six raised beds (each 4'x6'x22") will take 9 yards altogether. But, there is some crummy soil with gravel in it near the entrance to the gardens already (perfect for the bottom of each of the beds because the gravel will improve drainage). So, I'm guessing we'll need to haul something like 6 yards from Williams Fuel. I have no idea how big that is in terms of trucks and trailers. Maybe you do???

The beds are being delivered to my house tomorrow (Tues.). But, plans are to erect and fill them on Saturday. So, the fill dirt could be picked up anytime between tomorrow and Saturday.

Problem is, I need to get Williams Fuel to commit. Last I talked with the owner, she was "thinking" about it. Now that I know that you might be able to transport the soil, I will contact her tomorrow morning and see if I can get a firm commitment from her. I believe there'll be no problem with getting help with shoveling the dirt out at the garden site. We have a great crew out there setting things up.

Will get back to you asap after I speak with the owner of Williams Fuel.

Thanks so much, Tom!

Holly




________________________________
From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed

Hi,
    How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up? 
Take Care, Tom




The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling the
> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>
> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
> indicated below.
>
> Holly Tsur
> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com  Tue Apr 21 07:34:27 2009
From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:34:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
In-Reply-To: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>

Good Morning 

I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I have a
pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it gives
falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be wrong with
my tree?

Thanks and have a good day

Kathy 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!

Hello, All!
On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of their
Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old hands and
new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community Garden site
on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic pipe and
fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so
called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting,
gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed
sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.  
After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a
"crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana-- called
a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home- made
cookies.
Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one end of
the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers projecting 18
inches into the air, the real scale of the project becomes obvious. That
part of the job is DONE!
Great work, all!
Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be done
until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't want any
sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be another
good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and then it's
time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush blanket of weeds
that have flourished in that fertile soil.
Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,
which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the
fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are
installed just north of the parking lot.
But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady,
Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal sides
and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ picnic
site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was damaged
during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that can be easily
replaced with a few 2x4s.

Still to to:
* Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) *
Backfill trenches
* Get first cultivation done.
* Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the pile
just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.

(Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as work
continues)

*  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
* Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!

Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday when
the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in
more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!

We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some more
and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a definite 30
out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly
appreciated!
We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden and to
replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!

Walt




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 08:02:45 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:02:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Pear tree
In-Reply-To: <200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
Message-ID: <1B448916-0A6A-4D50-B292-84FB12F7BE68@verizon.net>

I can only say that once we started pruning our pear tree we had the  
same problem. The first year after we pruned it, the fruit was  
weighing down the branches so heavily they were half way to the ground!
The other issue of course could be bees. Do you see bees around when  
it is blooming?
Weather, soil conditions and a zillion other things can cause  
premature fruit drop so it might be hard to figure out.  If you can't  
get any clues from a google search you could call the County  
Extension Service Master Gardener  (503-725-2300) and they could lead  
you to more local information.
Good luck. Fresh pears are so good it is worth the work to try to get  
your tree back.

Katie


On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:34 AM, Ayala, Kathy wrote:

> Good Morning
>
> I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I  
> have a
> pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it gives
> falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be wrong with
> my tree?
>
> Thanks and have a good day
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
>
> Hello, All!
> On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of  
> their
> Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old  
> hands and
> new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community Garden  
> site
> on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic pipe and
> fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
> While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so
> called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting,
> gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed
> sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.
> After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a
> "crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
> At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana--  
> called
> a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home- made
> cookies.
> Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one  
> end of
> the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers  
> projecting 18
> inches into the air, the real scale of the project becomes obvious.  
> That
> part of the job is DONE!
> Great work, all!
> Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be  
> done
> until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't want  
> any
> sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
> Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be  
> another
> good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and then  
> it's
> time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush blanket of weeds
> that have flourished in that fertile soil.
> Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,
> which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the
> fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are
> installed just north of the parking lot.
> But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady,
> Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal  
> sides
> and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ picnic
> site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was damaged
> during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that can be  
> easily
> replaced with a few 2x4s.
>
> Still to to:
> * Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) *
> Backfill trenches
> * Get first cultivation done.
> * Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the  
> pile
> just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.
>
> (Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as  
> work
> continues)
>
> *  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
> * Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
> job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!
>
> Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday when
> the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in
> more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!
>
> We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some  
> more
> and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a  
> definite 30
> out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
> Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly
> appreciated!
> We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden  
> and to
> replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
> Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com  Tue Apr 21 08:10:10 2009
From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:10:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Pear tree
In-Reply-To: <1B448916-0A6A-4D50-B292-84FB12F7BE68@verizon.net>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com><200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<1B448916-0A6A-4D50-B292-84FB12F7BE68@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <200904211510.n3LFAK5J016831@barrierB241.nike.com>

Thanks Katie for the information and phone number I will wait and see if
I can find out any other information and if not then I will use the
phone number and call the Master Gardener. I agree, I love the pears and
think I will go get a new one this year to plant in a different place in
the yard to see if it does any better over the next year or so. I love
the Oregon Pears we have! 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:03 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Pear tree

I can only say that once we started pruning our pear tree we had the
same problem. The first year after we pruned it, the fruit was weighing
down the branches so heavily they were half way to the ground!
The other issue of course could be bees. Do you see bees around when it
is blooming?
Weather, soil conditions and a zillion other things can cause premature
fruit drop so it might be hard to figure out.  If you can't get any
clues from a google search you could call the County Extension Service
Master Gardener  (503-725-2300) and they could lead you to more local
information.
Good luck. Fresh pears are so good it is worth the work to try to get
your tree back.

Katie


On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:34 AM, Ayala, Kathy wrote:

> Good Morning
>
> I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I have

> a pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it 
> gives falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be 
> wrong with my tree?
>
> Thanks and have a good day
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- bounces at rdrop.com] 
> On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
>
> Hello, All!
> On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of 
> their Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old 
> hands and new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community 
> Garden site on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic 
> pipe and fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
> While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so

> called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting, 
> gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed

> sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.
> After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a 
> "crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
> At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana-- 
> called a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home-

> made cookies.
> Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one end 
> of the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers 
> projecting 18 inches into the air, the real scale of the project 
> becomes obvious.
> That
> part of the job is DONE!
> Great work, all!
> Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be 
> done until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't 
> want any sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
> Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be 
> another good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and

> then it's time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush 
> blanket of weeds that have flourished in that fertile soil.
> Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,

> which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the 
> fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are 
> installed just north of the parking lot.
> But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady, 
> Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal 
> sides and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ 
> picnic site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was 
> damaged during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that can

> be easily replaced with a few 2x4s.
>
> Still to to:
> * Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) * 
> Backfill trenches
> * Get first cultivation done.
> * Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the 
> pile just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.
>
> (Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as 
> work
> continues)
>
> *  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
> * Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
> job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!
>
> Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday when

> the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in 
> more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!
>
> We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some 
> more and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a 
> definite 30 out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
> Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly 
> appreciated!
> We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden and 
> to replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
> Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From obrzl at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 09:20:55 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pear tree
In-Reply-To: <200904211510.n3LFAK5J016831@barrierB241.nike.com>
Message-ID: <366978.17489.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

?
?I?heard on the radio that pears need lots of water at the end of their cycle.? I suspect late season watering, combined with thinning of overladen branches may help.? And although pears ripen well in cool cellar conditions,?they?seem to?gain weight and size on the tree almost right up to picking.
Mark
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, Ayala, Kathy <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com> wrote:

From: Ayala, Kathy <Kathy.Ayala at nike.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pear tree
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:10 PM

Thanks Katie for the information and phone number I will wait and see if
I can find out any other information and if not then I will use the
phone number and call the Master Gardener. I agree, I love the pears and
think I will go get a new one this year to plant in a different place in
the yard to see if it does any better over the next year or so. I love
the Oregon Pears we have! 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:03 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Pear tree

I can only say that once we started pruning our pear tree we had the
same problem. The first year after we pruned it, the fruit was weighing
down the branches so heavily they were half way to the ground!
The other issue of course could be bees. Do you see bees around when it
is blooming?
Weather, soil conditions and a zillion other things can cause premature
fruit drop so it might be hard to figure out.  If you can't get any
clues from a google search you could call the County Extension Service
Master Gardener  (503-725-2300) and they could lead you to more local
information.
Good luck. Fresh pears are so good it is worth the work to try to get
your tree back.

Katie


On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:34 AM, Ayala, Kathy wrote:

> Good Morning
>
> I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I have

> a pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it 
> gives falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be 
> wrong with my tree?
>
> Thanks and have a good day
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- bounces at rdrop.com] 
> On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
>
> Hello, All!
> On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of 
> their Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old 
> hands and new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community 
> Garden site on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic 
> pipe and fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
> While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so

> called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting, 
> gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed

> sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.
> After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a 
> "crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on
top.
> At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana-- 
> called a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home-

> made cookies.
> Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one end 
> of the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers 
> projecting 18 inches into the air, the real scale of the project 
> becomes obvious.
> That
> part of the job is DONE!
> Great work, all!
> Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be 
> done until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't 
> want any sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
> Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be 
> another good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and

> then it's time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush 
> blanket of weeds that have flourished in that fertile soil.
> Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,

> which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the 
> fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are 
> installed just north of the parking lot.
> But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady, 
> Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal 
> sides and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ 
> picnic site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was 
> damaged during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that
can

> be easily replaced with a few 2x4s.
>
> Still to to:
> * Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) * 
> Backfill trenches
> * Get first cultivation done.
> * Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the 
> pile just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.
>
> (Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as 
> work
> continues)
>
> *  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
> * Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
> job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!
>
> Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some
Saturday when

> the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in 
> more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!
>
> We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some 
> more and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a 
> definite 30 out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
> Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly 
> appreciated!
> We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden and 
> to replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
> Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 21 10:39:50 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
Message-ID: <3945.64708.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Tom,

I'm working on getting some free good-quality garden soil from Cascadian All in One. They bought out Best Buy in Town and they're located in Hillsboro. The guy promised to get back to me sometime this afternoon. 

It will really help a lot if you can handle pick up and delivery of the soil for us. No one wants to deliver and handle the transportation AND give us the soil. I'm asking for six yards.

Will keep you posted.

Holly Tsur
503-679-4480




________________________________
From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed

Hi,
    How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up? 
Take Care, Tom




The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling the
> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>
> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
> indicated below.
>
> Holly Tsur
> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Apr 21 09:02:25 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:02:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
In-Reply-To: <200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
Message-ID: <9BE773B9-A882-4EBE-9476-E1C87FB494B4@teleport.com>

> Kathy:
The problem with your pear tree may be as simple as the local  
climate. Many varieties of plants and trees sold by big outlets may  
be a strain acclimated to areas where there is more sun, or a higher  
ambient temperature, so the fruit never matures. Or, since all the  
fruit drops off green, the fruit may need thinning at an early stage,  
so more nutrients go to the remaining fruit. Or it may be infected  
with a fungus-- are the leaves spotted or specked with dead spots, or  
partly wilted or distorted? Maybe it gets too much shade from larger  
trees, or not enough water at a critical time. The tree might need  
pruning to let more sunlight into the lower branches and reduce  
deadwood. There are MANY possibilities, and I'd suggest contacting  
the Master Gardener at the County Fairgrounds in Hillsboro.
Walt

> Good Morning
>
> I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I  
> have a
> pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it gives
> falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be wrong with
> my tree?
>
> Thanks and have a good day
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
>
> Hello, All!
> On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of  
> their
> Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old  
> hands and
> new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community Garden  
> site
> on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic pipe and
> fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
> While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so
> called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting,
> gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed
> sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.
> After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a
> "crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
> At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana--  
> called
> a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home- made
> cookies.
> Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one  
> end of
> the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers  
> projecting 18
> inches into the air, the real scale of the project becomes obvious.  
> That
> part of the job is DONE!
> Great work, all!
> Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be  
> done
> until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't want  
> any
> sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
> Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be  
> another
> good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and then  
> it's
> time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush blanket of weeds
> that have flourished in that fertile soil.
> Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,
> which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the
> fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are
> installed just north of the parking lot.
> But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady,
> Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal  
> sides
> and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ picnic
> site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was damaged
> during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that can be  
> easily
> replaced with a few 2x4s.
>
> Still to to:
> * Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) *
> Backfill trenches
> * Get first cultivation done.
> * Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the  
> pile
> just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.
>
> (Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as  
> work
> continues)
>
> *  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
> * Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
> job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!
>
> Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday when
> the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in
> more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!
>
> We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some  
> more
> and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a  
> definite 30
> out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
> Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly
> appreciated!
> We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden  
> and to
> replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
> Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com  Wed Apr 22 06:59:53 2009
From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:59:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
In-Reply-To: <9BE773B9-A882-4EBE-9476-E1C87FB494B4@teleport.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com><200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<9BE773B9-A882-4EBE-9476-E1C87FB494B4@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <200904221359.n3MDxhw4046253@barrierM241.nike.com>

Thank you to all for the information and possible problems with my pear
tree I believe that I will try thinning out the tree and see if that
helps for now. Maybe over the winter we need to move the tree to a new
location in the yard so that it get more sun. 

Have a good day to everyone 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:02 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!

> Kathy:
The problem with your pear tree may be as simple as the local climate.
Many varieties of plants and trees sold by big outlets may be a strain
acclimated to areas where there is more sun, or a higher ambient
temperature, so the fruit never matures. Or, since all the fruit drops
off green, the fruit may need thinning at an early stage, so more
nutrients go to the remaining fruit. Or it may be infected with a
fungus-- are the leaves spotted or specked with dead spots, or partly
wilted or distorted? Maybe it gets too much shade from larger trees, or
not enough water at a critical time. The tree might need pruning to let
more sunlight into the lower branches and reduce deadwood. There are
MANY possibilities, and I'd suggest contacting the Master Gardener at
the County Fairgrounds in Hillsboro.
Walt

> Good Morning
>
> I have a question and am hoping some one can help me with this. I have

> a pear tree, it has been giving very little fruit and the fruit it 
> gives falls from the tree way to soon. Any one know what might be 
> wrong with my tree?
>
> Thanks and have a good day
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- bounces at rdrop.com] 
> On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Garden Irrigation In!
>
> Hello, All!
> On Saturday, Steve and Tony Matiaco,  along with Josh, members of 
> their Scout troop, some international exchange students and many old 
> hands and new volunteers, all showed up at the Forest Grove Community 
> Garden site on a beautiful cool morning, as a truckload of plastic 
> pipe and fittings arrived from HPS Pipe and Supply in Cornelius.
> While Steve, Josh and Shawn operated the monster trenching machine (so

> called from its behavior, not its size), the rest turned to cutting, 
> gluing and assembling the plumbing system, then lowering the completed

> sections to their position at the bottom of those trenches.
> After after six hours of anthill  activity, the field bristled with a 
> "crop" of 50 white faucet risers, each with a brass faucet on top.
> At that point, Tony's Mom and sisters-- Carole, Annie and Diana-- 
> called a halt for a delicious home-made lunch, finished off with home-

> made cookies.
> Shortly after that, the final line was installed. Standing at one end 
> of the field, looking down the long panorama of faucet risers 
> projecting 18 inches into the air, the real scale of the project 
> becomes obvious.
> That
> part of the job is DONE!
> Great work, all!
> Next we have to test the system for water-tightness, which can't be 
> done until the city gets the backflow-preventer installed. We don't 
> want any sudden geyser erupting in the middle of the Garden!
> Once that's done, we will backfill the trenches-- which will be 
> another good team project, and should go quicker with many hands-- and

> then it's time for the first cultivation, to turn over the lush 
> blanket of weeds that have flourished in that fertile soil.
> Holly has set up a ribbon-cutting celebration for 11 a.m. on the 26th,

> which will be another workday for Tony and crew, as they install the 
> fence around the West end of the field and the raised-bed gardens are 
> installed just north of the parking lot.
> But-- as they say on TeeVee-- that's not all, folks! A gracious lady, 
> Mary Maxon, has offered us a 12-by-12 gazebo, with openwork metal 
> sides and fabric roof, which we can set up as a children's area/ 
> picnic site/cooling-off spot for hot summer days. The roof frame was 
> damaged during last winter's heavy snow, but that's something that can

> be easily replaced with a few 2x4s.
>
> Still to to:
> * Pressure-test water system (need to have city connect the system) * 
> Backfill trenches
> * Get first cultivation done.
> * Set up donated raised-beds, fill bottoms with spoil dirt from the 
> pile just inside the northwest corner of the fence line.
>
> (Official ribbon cutting at 11 on Saturday at about this point, as 
> work
> continues)
>
> *  Build west-side fence, start on east-side fence and main gate.
> * Do second cultivation,  stake and string plots (another BIG team
> job) and start letting people plant and cultivate their crops!
>
> Steve Matiaco has suggested a "Garden Barbecue" for some Saturday when

> the Garden is up and running-- for publicity, goodwill and to draw in 
> more rentors-- which seems a great idea to me!
>
> We still need fence posts-- Tony has collected 18, I will find some 
> more and split 12 cedar posts (for ends and corners), which is a 
> definite 30 out of the 40-odd required, so we will need some more.
> Any decrepit but usable (or repairable) wheelbarrows will be greatly 
> appreciated!
> We'll need 30 or 40 2x4s, for faucet support posts in the garden and 
> to replace the roof frame on the gazebo.
> Thanks to everyone, a great public amenity is approaching completion!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 22 11:57:52 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:57:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
Message-ID: <901187.22033.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Tom,

I have a definite source for the garden soil. Great garden soil in fact!

They are Cascadian All in One and they're located at the intersection of West Union and Dick Roads in Hillsboro.

We have ordered six yards. My Cascadian contact tells me that your typical pick-up truck, depending on weight limitations, can carry maybe two yards at a time. You said you have pick-ups, trailers, and trucks; so I'm unclear as to how much you can handle and how many people are available to you for hauling.

Walt Wentz, co-chair for the FG Community Gardens, would like the soil delivered by Friday evening in time for the ribbon cutting ceremony at 11 AM. But, Cascadian is open from 7:30-5 PM on weekdays and from 8 AM-2PM on Saturdays. So, if it's better for you to deliver Saturday morning before the 11 AM ribbon cutting, that works too.

Are you still on for assisting us with moving the dirt? If so, when's the best time for you?

I will make sure we have a crew of shovel-ready volunteers available for unloading each load of dirt as it arrives.

Would you please give me a call so that we can discuss the above?

Thanks,

Holly Tsur
503-679-4480




________________________________
From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed

Hi,
    How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up? 
Take Care, Tom




The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling the
> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>
> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
> indicated below.
>
> Holly Tsur
> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From hannah at teleport.com  Wed Apr 22 13:22:08 2009
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:22:08 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
Message-ID: <C614E6A0.C0F4%hannah@teleport.com>

Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether to purchase LeafGuard
(the reverse S, nothing can get in type), or LeafFilter (the micro-woven
steel ?cloth? covers the gutter), or the open variety (must be cleaned but
no doubt cheaper in the first place)?

Does anyone have any suggestions for who to employ to do the task?

Thanks.
Kristy

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 22 13:33:36 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
In-Reply-To: <C614E6A0.C0F4%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C614E6A0.C0F4%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <75453.13795.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Contact Guy Ferguson with Adda Gutters and Downspouts for answers to both. He's super if you can schedule him.


(503) 324-4913?




________________________________
From: Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:22:08 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here

Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether to purchase LeafGuard
(the reverse S, nothing can get in type), or LeafFilter (the micro-woven
steel ?cloth? covers the gutter), or the open variety (must be cleaned but
no doubt cheaper in the first place)?

Does anyone have any suggestions for who to employ to do the task?

Thanks.
Kristy
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 22 13:51:48 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:51:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
In-Reply-To: <75453.13795.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <C614E6A0.C0F4%hannah@teleport.com>
	<75453.13795.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49EF8364.9040006@jurislex.com>

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From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 22 14:30:18 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:30:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] [Fwd: An Earth Day Message from Attorney General John
	Kroger]
Message-ID: <49EF8C6A.2000300@jurislex.com>

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From obrzl at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 15:32:52 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
In-Reply-To: <49EF8364.9040006@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <504601.98171.qm@web84207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'm with Bob, so now we're up to $0?.04 worth.? 
As a landlord and homeowner I've tried various gutter protection devices and my conclusion is that it's best to have open gutters and clean them?at least once a?year.? You can cut down the number of ladder positions by making a gutter mop out of a bamboo pole with a rag tied around?one end.? If you hire somebody to clean your gutters, check their work; some guys do less than they say.? Also, don't forget to snake out the gutter drains underground because they can get clogged with roots, leaves, or other debris -which can lead to foundation leakage.
Mark

--- On Wed, 4/22/09, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 8:51 PM


I strongly recommend open if cleaning is not a problem and you have plenty of downspouts. I do not recommend LeafGuard, since a whole lot of stuff falls that will not end up in the gutter (snow, ice, etc.) but on the ground near your foundation. The LeafFilter is great; well, that is until the end of the third week when the filter is plugged up and you have no way to backwash it!!

Just my $0.02 worth.

bob

Holly T. wrote: 
Contact Guy Ferguson with Adda Gutters and Downspouts for answers to both. He's super if you can schedule him.

(503) 324-4913
______________________________
From: Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:22:08 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here

Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether to purchase LeafGuard
(the reverse S, nothing can get in type), or LeafFilter (the micro-woven
steel ?cloth? covers the gutter), or the open variety (must be cleaned but
no doubt cheaper in the first place)?

Does anyone have any suggestions for who to employ to do the task?

Thanks.
Kristy
  ------------------------------------------------------ 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From fgchamber at groveweb.net  Wed Apr 22 15:47:18 2009
From: fgchamber at groveweb.net (Teri)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:47:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
In-Reply-To: <504601.98171.qm@web84207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <49EF8364.9040006@jurislex.com>
	<504601.98171.qm@web84207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ED0DCBD0C2654A65BCC83FE13EEE1CD6@Teri>

A local business here in town that does gutter cleaning along with his other
work is Dutchman Pressure Washing -- his name is Rafael Verlinden
(503-805-5534) and he does a great job.

OK -- guess we are up to 6 cents worth now!!



Teri Koerner, Executive Director

Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce

2417 Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR 97116

503.357.3006   Fax  503.357.2367

director at fgchamber.org

www.fgchamber.org

 

The Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce is business and professional persons
who work together to stimulate a prosperous business environment for a more
vibrant community.

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This message is intended only for the addresses and may
contain confidential, privileged information.  If you are not the intended
recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose any information contained in
the message.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender by reply email and delete the message.

 

Please conserve paper; print this e-mail only if necessary.


-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of mark oberzil
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:33 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here

I'm with Bob, so now we're up to $0?.04 worth.? 
As a landlord and homeowner I've tried various gutter protection devices and
my conclusion is that it's best to have open gutters and clean them?at least
once a?year.? You can cut down the number of ladder positions by making a
gutter mop out of a bamboo pole with a rag tied around?one end.? If you hire
somebody to clean your gutters, check their work; some guys do less than
they say.? Also, don't forget to snake out the gutter drains underground
because they can get clogged with roots, leaves, or other debris -which can
lead to foundation leakage.
Mark

--- On Wed, 4/22/09, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 8:51 PM


I strongly recommend open if cleaning is not a problem and you have plenty
of downspouts. I do not recommend LeafGuard, since a whole lot of stuff
falls that will not end up in the gutter (snow, ice, etc.) but on the ground
near your foundation. The LeafFilter is great; well, that is until the end
of the third week when the filter is plugged up and you have no way to
backwash it!!

Just my $0.02 worth.

bob

Holly T. wrote: 
Contact Guy Ferguson with Adda Gutters and Downspouts for answers to both.
He's super if you can schedule him.

(503) 324-4913
______________________________
From: Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:22:08 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here

Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether to purchase LeafGuard
(the reverse S, nothing can get in type), or LeafFilter (the micro-woven
steel ?cloth? covers the gutter), or the open variety (must be cleaned but
no doubt cheaper in the first place)?

Does anyone have any suggestions for who to employ to do the task?

Thanks.
Kristy
  ------------------------------------------------------ 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 17:20:24 2009
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:20:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down here
References: <49EF8364.9040006@jurislex.com>
	<504601.98171.qm@web84207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ED0DCBD0C2654A65BCC83FE13EEE1CD6@Teri>
Message-ID: <8F5F2955D69E4C0685EAEC02709C4312@EDavie>

I'll vouch for Rafael!
Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Teri
  To: obrzl at verizon.net ; 'Forest Grove local 
interests list'
  Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down 
here


  A local business here in town that does gutter 
cleaning along with his other
  work is Dutchman Pressure Washing -- his name is 
Rafael Verlinden
  (503-805-5534) and he does a great job.

  OK -- guess we are up to 6 cents worth now!!



  Teri Koerner, Executive Director

  Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce

  2417 Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR 97116

  503.357.3006   Fax  503.357.2367

  director at fgchamber.org

  www.fgchamber.org



  The Forest Grove Chamber of Commerce is business 
and professional persons
  who work together to stimulate a prosperous 
business environment for a more
  vibrant community.



  IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This message is intended only 
for the addresses and may
  contain confidential, privileged information. 
If you are not the intended
  recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose any 
information contained in
  the message.  If you have received this message 
in error, please notify the
  sender by reply email and delete the message.



  Please conserve paper; print this e-mail only if 
necessary.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com 
[mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
  Behalf Of mark oberzil
  Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:33 PM
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down 
here

  I'm with Bob, so now we're up to $0 .04 worth.
  As a landlord and homeowner I've tried various 
gutter protection devices and
  my conclusion is that it's best to have open 
gutters and clean them at least
  once a year. You can cut down the number of 
ladder positions by making a
  gutter mop out of a bamboo pole with a rag tied 
around one end. If you hire
  somebody to clean your gutters, check their 
work; some guys do less than
  they say. Also, don't forget to snake out the 
gutter drains underground
  because they can get clogged with roots, leaves, 
or other debris -which can
  lead to foundation leakage.
  Mark

  --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Bob Browning 
<rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

  From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down 
here
  To: "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
  Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 8:51 PM


  I strongly recommend open if cleaning is not a 
problem and you have plenty
  of downspouts. I do not recommend LeafGuard, 
since a whole lot of stuff
  falls that will not end up in the gutter (snow, 
ice, etc.) but on the ground
  near your foundation. The LeafFilter is great; 
well, that is until the end
  of the third week when the filter is plugged up 
and you have no way to
  backwash it!!

  Just my $0.02 worth.

  bob

  Holly T. wrote:
  Contact Guy Ferguson with Adda Gutters and 
Downspouts for answers to both.
  He's super if you can schedule him.

  (503) 324-4913
  ______________________________
  From: Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>
  To: Forest Grove local interests list 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:22:08 PM
  Subject: [Grovenet] Gutters are falling down 
here

  Does anyone have any recommendations as to 
whether to purchase LeafGuard
  (the reverse S, nothing can get in type), or 
LeafFilter (the micro-woven
  steel ?cloth? covers the gutter), or the open 
variety (must be cleaned but
  no doubt cheaper in the first place)?

  Does anyone have any suggestions for who to 
employ to do the task?

  Thanks.
  Kristy
    ------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From tom at efnursery.com  Wed Apr 22 17:44:23 2009
From: tom at efnursery.com (tom at efnursery.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:44:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <901187.22033.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
	<901187.22033.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50534.71.111.115.94.1240447463.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>

Hi,
     I have a dump truck with sides that can haul six yards.  I can pick
it up on Friday and dump on Friday before 4 if that would work.  Take
Care, Tom>


Hi Tom,
>
> I have a definite source for the garden soil. Great garden soil in fact!
>
> They are Cascadian All in One and they're located at the intersection of
> West Union and Dick Roads in Hillsboro.
>
> We have ordered six yards. My Cascadian contact tells me that your typical
> pick-up truck, depending on weight limitations, can carry maybe two yards
> at a time. You said you have pick-ups, trailers, and trucks; so I'm
> unclear as to how much you can handle and how many people are available to
> you for hauling.
>
> Walt Wentz, co-chair for the FG Community Gardens, would like the soil
> delivered by Friday evening in time for the ribbon cutting ceremony at 11
> AM. But, Cascadian is open from 7:30-5 PM on weekdays and from 8 AM-2PM on
> Saturdays. So, if it's better for you to deliver Saturday morning before
> the 11 AM ribbon cutting, that works too.
>
> Are you still on for assisting us with moving the dirt? If so, when's the
> best time for you?
>
> I will make sure we have a crew of shovel-ready volunteers available for
> unloading each load of dirt as it arrives.
>
> Would you please give me a call so that we can discuss the above?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Holly Tsur
> 503-679-4480
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
>
> Hi,
>     How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
> trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up?
> Take Care, Tom
>
>
>
>
> The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
>> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
>> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
>> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling
>> the
>> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>>
>> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
>> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
>> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
>> indicated below.
>>
>> Holly Tsur
>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From smithsmith at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 19:11:40 2009
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:11:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anyone have a car or truck for SALE?
Message-ID: <7eaadfd10904221911r1458b3afqde277efdcb73b6d4@mail.gmail.com>

We need another car or truck - cheap....If anyone is ready to part with a
used vehicle - we may be interested.
Somehow a job in Vernonia that starts at 7am and job in FG that starts at
830am  - well, that ain't working out so well!
Thanks!
Barb

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 22 19:41:38 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <50534.71.111.115.94.1240447463.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
	<901187.22033.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50534.71.111.115.94.1240447463.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
Message-ID: <537203.83666.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Awesome!  That'd be perfect, Tom.

If you send me your phone number, I can call you tomorrow to let you know the exact address (I need to find out myself). Then, just let me know exactly when you want me to meet you at Cascadian so that I can pay them and then you can follow me out to the gardens. Okay with you?

If you have a dump truck, that means I won't need to arrange a work crew to help us unload, right?

Holly Tsur
503-679-4480




________________________________
From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed

Hi,
     I have a dump truck with sides that can haul six yards.  I can pick
it up on Friday and dump on Friday before 4 if that would work.  Take
Care, Tom>


Hi Tom,
>
> I have a definite source for the garden soil. Great garden soil in fact!
>
> They are Cascadian All in One and they're located at the intersection of
> West Union and Dick Roads in Hillsboro.
>
> We have ordered six yards. My Cascadian contact tells me that your typical
> pick-up truck, depending on weight limitations, can carry maybe two yards
> at a time. You said you have pick-ups, trailers, and trucks; so I'm
> unclear as to how much you can handle and how many people are available to
> you for hauling.
>
> Walt Wentz, co-chair for the FG Community Gardens, would like the soil
> delivered by Friday evening in time for the ribbon cutting ceremony at 11
> AM. But, Cascadian is open from 7:30-5 PM on weekdays and from 8 AM-2PM on
> Saturdays. So, if it's better for you to deliver Saturday morning before
> the 11 AM ribbon cutting, that works too.
>
> Are you still on for assisting us with moving the dirt? If so, when's the
> best time for you?
>
> I will make sure we have a crew of shovel-ready volunteers available for
> unloading each load of dirt as it arrives.
>
> Would you please give me a call so that we can discuss the above?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Holly Tsur
> 503-679-4480
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
>
> Hi,
>     How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups, trailers, and
> trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up?
> Take Care, Tom
>
>
>
>
> The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil to fill
>> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards Raised
>> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been talking with
>> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for filling
>> the
>> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>>
>> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
>> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from Williams
>> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email me as
>> indicated below.
>>
>> Holly Tsur
>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Apr 22 21:56:45 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:56:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
In-Reply-To: <537203.83666.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <177340.77731.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50420.71.111.115.94.1240287011.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
	<901187.22033.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50534.71.111.115.94.1240447463.squirrel@www.efnursery.com>
	<537203.83666.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5F1B00C3-0F7A-463B-93BC-A6F1183D0C52@teleport.com>

Hi Holly:
You're doing great! Remember to set Tom's business name so we can  
name him as a Sponsor.
Walt

On Apr 22, 2009, at 7:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Awesome!  That'd be perfect, Tom.
>
> If you send me your phone number, I can call you tomorrow to let  
> you know the exact address (I need to find out myself). Then, just  
> let me know exactly when you want me to meet you at Cascadian so  
> that I can pay them and then you can follow me out to the gardens.  
> Okay with you?
>
> If you have a dump truck, that means I won't need to arrange a work  
> crew to help us unload, right?
>
> Holly Tsur
> 503-679-4480
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:44:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
>
> Hi,
>      I have a dump truck with sides that can haul six yards.  I can  
> pick
> it up on Friday and dump on Friday before 4 if that would work.  Take
> Care, Tom>
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>>
>> I have a definite source for the garden soil. Great garden soil in  
>> fact!
>>
>> They are Cascadian All in One and they're located at the  
>> intersection of
>> West Union and Dick Roads in Hillsboro.
>>
>> We have ordered six yards. My Cascadian contact tells me that your  
>> typical
>> pick-up truck, depending on weight limitations, can carry maybe  
>> two yards
>> at a time. You said you have pick-ups, trailers, and trucks; so I'm
>> unclear as to how much you can handle and how many people are  
>> available to
>> you for hauling.
>>
>> Walt Wentz, co-chair for the FG Community Gardens, would like the  
>> soil
>> delivered by Friday evening in time for the ribbon cutting  
>> ceremony at 11
>> AM. But, Cascadian is open from 7:30-5 PM on weekdays and from 8  
>> AM-2PM on
>> Saturdays. So, if it's better for you to deliver Saturday morning  
>> before
>> the 11 AM ribbon cutting, that works too.
>>
>> Are you still on for assisting us with moving the dirt? If so,  
>> when's the
>> best time for you?
>>
>> I will make sure we have a crew of shovel-ready volunteers  
>> available for
>> unloading each load of dirt as it arrives.
>>
>> Would you please give me a call so that we can discuss the above?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Holly Tsur
>> 503-679-4480
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "tom at efnursery.com" <tom at efnursery.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pick Up Truck and/or Trailer Needed
>>
>> Hi,
>>     How much soil are you talking about?  I have pickups,  
>> trailers, and
>> trucks. that woould be available.  When would you need it picked up?
>> Take Care, Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Forest Grove Community Gardens is in need of some garden soil  
>> to fill
>>> up some cedar raised beds that have been donated by Naturalyards  
>>> Raised
>>> Beds for use by elderly/handicapped gardeners. I have been  
>>> talking with
>>> the owner of Williams Fuel about donating some garden soil for  
>>> filling
>>> the
>>> beds. Williams is considering this idea IF we pick up the soil.
>>>
>>> Does anyone out there have a pick-up or utility trailer who might be
>>> interested in helping us transport garden soil on Saturday from  
>>> Williams
>>> Fuel out to the gardens near 22nd and Maple Streets? If so, email  
>>> me as
>>> indicated below.
>>>
>>> Holly Tsur
>>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From hannah at teleport.com  Wed Apr 22 22:00:20 2009
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:00:20 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Thanks for the help with with the gutters!
Message-ID: <C6156014.C116%hannah@teleport.com>

I really appreciated the information about the different types of gutter
systems. Funny, all the others I spoke to said that the one they were
selling was perfect. 8-)

I have contacted your friend Guy, Holly, and I think we are coming to an
arrangement.

He did ask me to tell you thanks for the recommendation...and not to be a
stranger!

I think we must have a whole dime?s worth of intelligence on the topic by
now.

This group always comes thru promptly and clearly whenever I need a little
help.
Thank you, very much.
Kristy

From chuck at grovenet.net  Thu Apr 23 07:25:19 2009
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:25:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
Message-ID: <49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>

Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work. 

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.



From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 07:44:55 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:44:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <B4756962-7F73-4B8D-B105-4C7A710500A4@verizon.net>

Yep. It sure is big.

Katie

On Apr 23, 2009, at 7:25 AM, chuck wrote:

> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Apr 23 07:47:02 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:47:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>

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From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 07:49:11 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <B4756962-7F73-4B8D-B105-4C7A710500A4@verizon.net>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
	<B4756962-7F73-4B8D-B105-4C7A710500A4@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <918764.77338.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No only is it big, it's also quite breath-taking and beautiful.? The News Times article yesterday stated the flag being flown yesterday was a test as they're waiting?to fly the flag continuously until ~May 28th for both the pole concrete base to cure and the lights for nighttime illumination to be installed.
?
Out of a scientific curiosity, I'm wondering how long it'll take for the flag to become tattered enough by winds to?require replacement.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:44:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Yep. It sure is big.

Katie

On Apr 23, 2009, at 7:25 AM, chuck wrote:

> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 07:50:22 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net> <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <341391.86832.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Or maybe the family who paid for the entire setup has also agreed/offered to fund illumination costs, flag replacement costs and general upkeep costs.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14 months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds needed??

bob
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

chuck wrote: 
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work. 

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.
------------------------------------------------------ 



      

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Apr 23 08:06:45 2009
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:06:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <918764.77338.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net>
	<B4756962-7F73-4B8D-B105-4C7A710500A4@verizon.net>
	<918764.77338.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7C2C2F1@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I was driving east yesterday, coming around that curve past the Safeway area, and the flag just about filled my windshield.  Seeing it for the first time, surprised too, I was very impressed.  It was simply beautiful and majestic.  My thanks to those involved.

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:49 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

No only is it big, it's also quite breath-taking and beautiful.? The News Times article yesterday stated the flag being flown yesterday was a test as they're waiting?to fly the flag continuously until ~May 28th for both the pole concrete base to cure and the lights for nighttime illumination to be installed.
?
Out of a scientific curiosity, I'm wondering how long it'll take for the flag to become tattered enough by winds to?require replacement.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:44:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Yep. It sure is big.

Katie

On Apr 23, 2009, at 7:25 AM, chuck wrote:

> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Thu Apr 23 08:26:21 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:26:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

  bob
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------
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From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 08:49:45 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'???"Because we can!"?? :-)
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
? -----Original Message-----
? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
? To: Forest Grove local interests list
? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

? bob
? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

? chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Apr 23 08:53:32 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:53:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49F08EFC.1060109@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090423/161d989f/attachment.html 

From greenacres2 at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 09:17:37 2009
From: greenacres2 at verizon.net (George and Jean Cushing)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:17:37 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Anyone have a car or truck for SALE?
In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10904221911r1458b3afqde277efdcb73b6d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7eaadfd10904221911r1458b3afqde277efdcb73b6d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201c9c42f$04bef420$0e3cdc60$@net>

My friend Dave Whitman, owner of Cornelius Auto Care (736 baseline, 503 357
4123).  Has a good used chevy blazer for sale, don't know how much but he
has gone through it and it is good condition.  He normaly doesn't sell cars,
(he does inspections of cars you may be interested in buying),  But this is
an exception.  George.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of b Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:12 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Anyone have a car or truck for SALE?

We need another car or truck - cheap....If anyone is ready to part with a
used vehicle - we may be interested.
Somehow a job in Vernonia that starts at 7am and job in FG that starts at
830am  - well, that ain't working out so well!
Thanks!
Barb
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

__________ NOD32 4029 (20090422) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Thu Apr 23 09:18:34 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:18:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Stand By Me, like you haven't heard before
Message-ID: <EFFB51FADCAB41A498FC09C52B86ED98@gerianehzkfhvy>

Got this from another list, and just had to pass it on to GroveNetLand:

This is a Playing-for-Change performance of "Stand by Me."  Seven minutes, players from all over the world, wired up together ... Fabulous!

http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2539741 


Geri


From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Apr 23 09:32:03 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:32:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat  
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local  
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous  
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we  
> can!"?  :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>   Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>   To: Forest Grove local interests list
>   Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>   No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to  
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no  
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the  
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>   bob
>   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>   chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From smithsmith at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 09:54:03 2009
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:54:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anyone have a car or truck for SALE?
In-Reply-To: <007201c9c42f$04bef420$0e3cdc60$@net>
References: <7eaadfd10904221911r1458b3afqde277efdcb73b6d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c9c42f$04bef420$0e3cdc60$@net>
Message-ID: <7eaadfd10904230954y5b05c6d4s6760f367064d8907@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks George -
I will pass this on to my husband!
Barb

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:17 AM, George and Jean Cushing <
greenacres2 at verizon.net> wrote:

> My friend Dave Whitman, owner of Cornelius Auto Care (736 baseline, 503 357
> 4123).  Has a good used chevy blazer for sale, don't know how much but he
> has gone through it and it is good condition.  He normaly doesn't sell
> cars,
> (he does inspections of cars you may be interested in buying),  But this is
> an exception.  George.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of b Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:12 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Anyone have a car or truck for SALE?
>
> We need another car or truck - cheap....If anyone is ready to part with a
> used vehicle - we may be interested.
> Somehow a job in Vernonia that starts at 7am and job in FG that starts at
> 830am  - well, that ain't working out so well!
> Thanks!
> Barb
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> __________ NOD32 4029 (20090422) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jawelch at coho.net  Thu Apr 23 10:16:20 2009
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>
References: <35F00A07-0C53-499B-9DF5-185F9DE7CB46@teleport.com>
	<200904211434.n3LEYGCk010541@barrierB241.nike.com>
	<49F07A4F.1050803@grovenet.net> <49F07F66.7020904@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <9c04692a9201ce070041e9df4e629871.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





Some
information:? The entire set-up comes with two sets of flags, each
consisting of a regular flag, a ceremonial flag and a foul weather flag.?
No replacements will be needed for some time.? All the lighting and other
support was included in the purchase.? It is hoped that a consortium of
service clubs and the like will chip in for replacements when the initial
funding has been expended.? The size/height was specified by those who
were funding the project.? We are away right now and look forward to
seeing this!
John



> <!DOCTYPE html
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
>
<html>
> <head>
>   <meta
content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
> </head>
>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
> <font size="+1">No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can
see from one end of
> town to the other is one humongous flag!! I
wonder how long until the
> City has no money to buy the
replacement flag when this one is all
> tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to
> come up with the
additional funds needed??<br>
> <br>
>
bob<br>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<br>
> </font><br>
> chuck wrote:
>
<blockquote cite="mid:49F07A4F.1050803 at grovenet.net"
type="cite">
>   <pre wrap="">Saw the
flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> 
> That's
- um - one - HUGE - flag.
> 
> Wow.</pre>
>
</blockquote>
> <div
>
class="moz-signature"><big>------------------------------------------------------</big>
> <br>
> <img
src="cid:part1.05070909.02040109 at jurislex.com"
border="0"></div>
> </body>
>
</html>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 10:24:29 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <647901.86017.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Without being able to talk w/the private entity that funded the?entire operation,?we'll all?just continue to guess as to why the flag is as large as it is.

Personally, I find the flag very inspiring and beautiful.? I realize everyone's reaction can and possibly will be different.? I'm just hoping?the ratio of supporters to objectors is greater than 1:1 and that the ratio?over time will?increase on the supporter side.

And as far as the cost for?any upkeep and maintenance, I'm?going to?lean on?my belief the private funders probably offered to fund this, or at least our fair city leaders requested the private party do so if the private party didn't offer in the first place.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat? 
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local? 
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous? 
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'?? "Because we? 
> can!"?? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>? To: Forest Grove local interests list
>? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to? 
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no? 
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the? 
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>? bob
>? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>? chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From obrzl at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 10:40:45 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
Message-ID: <847842.69756.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>





?? 

There was a time when American flags were kept to a conservative size. When you saw them, you took a moment to reflect on the hard-won honor and dignity of our nation and its government ? not its sheer, overwhelming size.
?
?Mark

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM

Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'???"Because we
can!"?? :-)
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
? -----Original Message-----
? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
? To: Forest Grove local interests list
? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

? bob
? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

? chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 10:51:34 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:51:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <847842.69756.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <847842.69756.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <738913.200.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Times change.? And no, it was not I or my family that funded the flag.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: mark oberzil <obrzl at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:40:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

There was a time when American flags were kept to a conservative size. When you saw them, you took a moment to reflect on the hard-won honor and dignity of our nation and its government ? not its sheer, overwhelming size.
?
?Mark

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM

Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'???"Because we
can!"?? :-)
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
? -----Original Message-----
? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
? To: Forest Grove local interests list
? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

? bob
? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

? chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



? ? ? 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From phoenixacm at aol.com  Thu Apr 23 11:00:48 2009
From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:00:48 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re:  That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <263931.8428.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <263931.8428.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CB9254912DD5DF-1748-169@webmail-da15.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks, Allen!


Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacm at aol.com>
Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Jane,
?
I think your email response only went to me (see below) and not?the 
rest of Grovenet.
?
And congrats on your?Earth Day fund raising!
?
Allen Warren






From: Jane Burch-Pesses &lt;phoenixacm at aol.com&gt;
To: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:43:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Yes, it is certainly beautiful.? What I am wondering is who is raising
and lowering it?? As a Navy vet, I am well aware that a flag cannot be
left up overnight without illumination (which is not yet installed).
Wrangling a flag that size up and down the pole (which is sandwiched
between two roads) is no small task.

Jane B-P

BTW, my Earth Day event at Curves yesterday went very well and I raised
$35 for Animals Asia, which I think is great considering the tight
economic climate.


Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO
 (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Warren &lt;osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com&gt;
To: Forest Grove local interests list &lt;grovenet at rdrop.com&gt;
Sent: Thu
, 23 Apr 2009 10:24 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Without being able to talk w/the private entity that funded the?entire
operation,?we'll all?just continue to guess as to why the flag is as
large as it is.

Personally, I find the flag very inspiring and beautiful.? I realize
everyone's reaction can and possibly will be different.? I'm just
hoping?the ratio of supporters to objectors is greater than 1:1 and
that the ratio?over time
 will?increase on the supporter side.

And as far as the cost for?any upkeep and maintenance, I'm?going
to?lean on?my belief the private funders probably offered to fund this,
or at lea
st our fair city leaders requested the private party do so if
the private party didn't offer in the first place.
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Walt Wentz &lt;waltw at teleport.com&gt;
To: Forest Grove local interests list &lt;grovenet at rdrop.com&gt;
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat?
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local?
sign codes limited the size of their
 signs, they just flew humungous?
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

&gt; Bigger is better?? One better20than the Jones'?? "Because we?
&gt; can!"?? :-)
&gt;
&gt; Allen Warren
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; ________________________________
&gt; From: Steven &lt;NoSpam03 at comcast.net&gt;
&gt; To: Forest Grove local interests list &lt;grovenet at rdrop.com&gt;
&gt; Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
&gt; Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
&gt;
&gt; Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
&gt;? -----Original Message-----
&gt;? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
&gt; bounces at rdrop.com]On
&gt; Behalf Of Bob Browning
&gt;? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
&gt;? To: Forest Grove local interests list
&gt;? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can s
ee from one end of town to?
&gt; the other
&gt; is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no?
&gt; money to buy
&gt; the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 
14
&gt; months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the?
&gt; additional funds
&gt; needed??
&gt;
&gt;? bob
&gt;? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
&gt;
&gt;? chuck wrote:
&gt; Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for
 work.
&gt;
&gt; That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
&gt;
&gt; Wow.------------------------------------------------------
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; GroveNet mailing list


&gt; GroveNet at rdrop.com
&gt; http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet











From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Apr 23 11:15:55 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:15:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] One more name to add to the list of traitors . . .
Message-ID: <49F0B05B.4090803@jurislex.com>

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From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 12:13:31 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] One more name to add to the list of traitors . . .
In-Reply-To: <49F0B05B.4090803@jurislex.com>
References: <49F0B05B.4090803@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <221488.2679.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Definition of a traitor is "a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country."

One definition of the word betray is "to deceive, misguide or corrupt".

Bob, should I understand by your assertion of Rice as a traitor that her traiterous act was deceiving the USA?? How is approving waterboarding a traiterous act?? Waterboarding as mean or inhuman?? Yes.? But I'm really struggling to understand how approving Waterboarding to be used as an interrogation?weapon against an identified enemy would be considered as traiterous.

When I hear the word "traitor" the first person that comes to mind is Benedict Arnold.? Then I think of the folks who have been convicted of selling secrets to foreign countries such as Russia.

As much as I totally never agreed with GW Bush and/or his policies, the only positive I will state about him, begrudgingly, is that he believed he was protecting our country from terrorists.? I would refer to him more as a Dictator and his cabinet members like Rice as minions to carry out his demands.? I believe GW did everything in his power to carry out his agenda and thus he did deceive.? But he truly believed he was doing what he thought?best for our country.? Insensitive/Stubborn/Reckless/Stupid/Ignorant?? Yes.? Traitor?? No.? 

Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:15:55 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] One more name to add to the list of traitors . . .


 
Rice OK'd CIA waterboard request as Bush adviser
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer Pamela Hess, Associated Press Writer Thu?Apr?23, 1:35?am?ET 
WASHINGTON ? As national security adviser to former President George W. Bush, Condoleezza Rice verbally approved the CIA's request to subject alleged al-Qaida terrorist Abu Zubaydah to waterboarding in July 2002, the earliest known decision by a Bush administration official to OK use of the simulated drowning technique.
Rice's role was detailed in a narrative released Wednesday by the Senate Intelligence Committee. It provides the most detailed timeline yet for how the CIA's harsh interrogation program was conceived and approved at the highest levels in the Bush White House.
The new timeline shows that Rice played a greater role than she admitted last fall in written testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee.
The narrative also shows that dissenting legal views about the severe interrogation methods were brushed aside repeatedly.
The Intelligence Committee's timeline comes a day after the Senate Armed Services Committee released an exhaustive report detailing direct links between the CIA's harsh interrogation program and abuses of prisoners at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in Afghanistan and at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.
Both revelations follow President Barack Obama's release of internal Bush administration legal memos that justified the use of severe methods by the CIA, a move that kicked up a firestorm from opposing sides of the ideological spectrum.
According to the new narrative, which compiles legal advice provided by the Bush administration to the CIA, Rice personally conveyed the administration's approval for waterboarding of Zubaydah, a so-called high-value detainee, to then-CIA Director George Tenet in July 2002.
Last fall, Rice acknowledged to the Senate Armed Services Committee only that she had attended meetings where the CIA interrogation request was discussed and asked for the attorney general to conduct a legal review. She said she did not recall details. Rice omitted her direct role in approving the program in her written statement to the committee.
A spokesman for Rice declined comment when reached Wednesday.
Days after Rice gave Tenet the nod, the Justice Department approved the use of waterboarding in a top secret Aug. 1 memo. Zubaydah underwent waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002.
In the years that followed, according to the narrative issued Wednesday, there were numerous internal legal reviews of the program, suggesting government attorneys raised concerns that the harsh methods, particularly waterboarding, might violate federal laws against torture and the U.S. Constitution.
But Bush administration lawyers continued to validate the program. The CIA voluntarily dropped the use of waterboarding, which has a long history as a torture tactic, from its arsenal of techniques after 2005.
According to the two Senate reports, CIA lawyers first presented the plan to waterboard Zubaydah to White House lawyers in April 2002, a few weeks after his capture in Pakistan. Tenet wrote in his memoir that CIA officers themselves originated the idea.
In May 2002, Rice, along with then-Attorney General John Ashcroft and White House counsel Alberto Gonzales met at the White House with the CIA to discuss the use of waterboarding.
The Armed Services Committee report says that six months earlier, in December 2001, the Pentagon's legal office already had made inquiries about the use of mock interrogation and detention tactics to a U.S. military training unit that schools armed forces personnel in how to endure harsh treatment. A former intelligence official said Wednesday the CIA officers also based their proposed harsh interrogations on the mock interrogation methods used by the unit. He declined to be identified because the CIA had not authorized the disclosure of the information.
In July 2002, responding to a follow-up from the Pentagon general counsel's office, officials at the training unit, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, detailed their methods for the Pentagon. The list included waterboarding.
But the training unit warned that harsh physical techniques could backfire by making prisoners more resistant. They also cautioned about the reliability of information gleaned from the severe methods and warned that the public and political backlash could be "intolerable."
"A subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer or many answers in order to get the pain to stop," the training officials said in their memo. 
Less than a week later, the Justice Department issued two legal opinions that sanctioned the CIA's harsh interrogation program. The memos appeared to draw deeply on the survival school data provided to the Pentagon to show that the CIA's methods would not cross the line into torture. 
The opinion concluded that the harsh interrogation methods would be acceptable for use on terror detainees because the same techniques did not cause severe physical or mental pain to U.S. military students who were tested in the government's carefully controlled training program. 
Several people from the survival program objected to the use of their mock interrogations in battlefield settings. In an October 2002 e-mail, a senior Army psychologist told personnel at Guantanamo Bay that the methods were inherently dangerous and students were sometimes injured, even in a controlled setting. 
"The risk with real detainees is increased exponentially," he said. 
Nevertheless, for the next two years, the CIA and military officials received interrogation training and direct interrogation support from JPRA trainers. 
Last week, the Obama administration's top intelligence official, Dennis Blair, privately told intelligence employees that "high value information" was obtained through the harsh interrogation techniques. However, on Tuesday, in a written statement, Blair said, "The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means."
Copyright ? 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. 
Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. 



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 14:16:20 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] sobering sign of the recession
Message-ID: <858612.80040.qm@web35202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We had our home appraised as part of the?refi process to lower our?home mortgage interest rate.? The appraised value came in at 37% less than the Real Market Value (RMV) appraisal shown on last year's property tax statement.? And since Washington County's RMV appraisal is usually at least 7% less than the market value of a home, that means according to the Certified Appraiser who appraised our home, that Appraiser shows a drop of at least 44% since last year.? Ouch!

I'm thinking of contacting another appraiser as I'm not necessarily convinced our property's value decreased that much in less than a year.? But if?a greater than 35% drop, or even greater than 25-30% drop?in assessed value is correct, I am *SO GLAD* I am not employed in the property tax?assessment office as the tax assessers are going to have?a devil of a time this year, not to mention all the homeowners who?might contest their assessed?property value come late this?year.
?
Allen Warren


      

From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 14:34:50 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Volunteer for FG Library book sale in May?
In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10904230954y5b05c6d4s6760f367064d8907@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <256837.15215.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Dear All,

With budget shortfalls in the Forest Grove City government the library will be suffering as much as any other department so......

Here's your chance to help!

Dear Library Lovers,

Ready for that good warm feeling in your heart from volunteering for the Forest Grove Library Used Book Sale?

See below for your volunteer opportunity!  It's all happening in the Rogers Room at the library.

These dates are for SET UP:

THURS. 5/7/09:  10:30 AM until 5 PM, Put books on tables

FRI.   5/8/09:  10:30 AM - 5 PM - put books on tables

SAT. 5/9/09: 10 AM until 3 PM or until done.

MON. 5/11/09:  More books arrive this afternoon at 4 PM 

********************************************************

These below dates are for SITTING AT THE TABLE and taking money.  If you can give 2 or 3 hours that is great.  Just let me know what time is good for you.  Below are the hours of the sale:

MON, 05/11/09, 10 AM - 8 PM

TUES. 05/12/09, 10 AM ? 8 PM

WED. 05/13/09, 10 AM ? 8 PM

THURS. 05/14/09, 10 AM ? 5 PM

FRI. 05/15/09, 10 AM ? 5 PM

SAT. 05/16/08, 10 AM ? 3 PM

***********************************************************

These dates are for CLEAN UP:

SAT. 5/16/09, 3 PM

MON. 5/18, 10 AMish

*************************************************

Let me know if you can help or just show up to BUY CHEAP BOOKS!

Thanks so very much!

Alana Graham
503-357-2136 X 246 or evening: 359-9719

P.S. Donations?  Bring to the library.



              


      


From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Apr 23 18:21:15 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:21:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] One more name to add to the list of traitors . . .
In-Reply-To: <221488.2679.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <49F0B05B.4090803@jurislex.com>
	<221488.2679.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49F1140B.4020203@jurislex.com>

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From khourym at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 21:34:28 2009
From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:34:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] sobering sign of the recession
In-Reply-To: <858612.80040.qm@web35202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <858612.80040.qm@web35202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A13CC84F-1AB5-4E91-A3BF-0545C8290C59@verizon.net>

I was surprised how low our appraisal was when we refinanced last June  
for our addition. The appraiser mentioned that some new homes are  
being sold at half-price to off-load them. I also read recently in the  
paper about a developer selling homes at a loss to keep his company  
solvent. This doesn't help our home values when they're looking for  
comps. Our appraiser definitely had a bias against old houses, as well.

--Martha K.


On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> We had our home appraised as part of the refi process to lower our  
> home mortgage interest rate.  The appraised value came in at 37%  
> less than the Real Market Value (RMV) appraisal shown on last year's  
> property tax statement.  And since Washington County's RMV appraisal  
> is usually at least 7% less than the market value of a home, that  
> means according to the Certified Appraiser who appraised our home,  
> that Appraiser shows a drop of at least 44% since last year.  Ouch!
>
> I'm thinking of contacting another appraiser as I'm not necessarily  
> convinced our property's value decreased that much in less than a  
> year.  But if a greater than 35% drop, or even greater than 25-30%  
> drop in assessed value is correct, I am *SO GLAD* I am not employed  
> in the property tax assessment office as the tax assessers are going  
> to have a devil of a time this year, not to mention all the  
> homeowners who might contest their assessed property value come late  
> this year.
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 23 22:54:52 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a?Forest Grove resident because of this monstrous display of "patriotism".?I fear that anyone who drives through?Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag,?will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive?manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each other. 

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass monstrosity?gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat? 
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local? 
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous? 
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'?? "Because we? 
> can!"?? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>? To: Forest Grove local interests list
>? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to? 
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no? 
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the? 
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>? bob
>? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>? chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jawelch at coho.net  Fri Apr 24 07:28:43 2009
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:28:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ad09ca9500b29f523abb214dbc50cfaa.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





Holly - With all
due respect - - GET A GRIP!
John

> I agree, Walt. I
will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO.
Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> 
> As Tom
Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
> 
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a?Forest Grove
resident because of
> this monstrous display of
"patriotism".?I fear that anyone who drives
>
through?Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
flag,?will
> think that our community is overrun by redneck
Republicans who are
> pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women,
and against spending tax
> dollars to help people and the
environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and
> I resent my city
being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
>
unprogressive?manner.
> 
> The next time I pass the bus
stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless
people standing around less than a block away from this
>
monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many
of
> them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
monstrosity
> cost?"
> 
> For me, the mark of
a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping
your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally
and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
enemy, and how
> many forests you've cut down in the name of
capitalism. I thought we got
> past all that ridiculous flag
waving and conservative leanings when Dubya
> was finally booted
out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> there was a
rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> their
best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> Bush Administration, and to help each other.
> 
> I
wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this
crass
> monstrosity?gave to charities this year. How much did they
roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than
themselves? I wonder.
> 
> Holly Tsur
> 
>

> 
> 
> 
>
________________________________
>
From: Walt Wentz
<waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009
9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>

> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes
me as somewhat?
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few
years ago-- when local?
> sign codes limited the size of their
signs, they just flew humungous?
> American flags to attract
attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit
overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen
Warren wrote:
> 
>> Bigger is better?? One better than
the Jones'?? "Because we?
>> can!"?? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
From:
Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local
interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday,
April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one
big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why
there is a humongous flag?
>>? -----Original Message-----
>>?
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>? To:
Forest Grove local interests list
>>? Subject: Re: [Grovenet]
That's one big flag
>>
>>
>>? No chuck,
Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to?
>> the
other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
City has no?
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag
when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or,
maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the?
>> additional
funds
>> needed??
>>
>>? bob
>>? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>?
chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town
for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>>
Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 07:41:16 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:41:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7798F7EA-B649-4392-8BF2-84631AC02B70@verizon.net>

While I agree with you on the flag being too large, I have had a hard  
time trying to decide why it is a problem for me.
People who know Forest Grove know that there are enough of us who  
support the peace movement, PFLAG, shop local movements, alternative  
medicine, etc to know that the town is not over run with people who  
substitute a lapel pin for patriotism.
So I had to ask myself, why would people want this flag?  And since I  
have no idea who the donors are, I'll have to guess.
Perhaps they have lost a son or daughter to the horrors of the war in  
Iraq and they desperately want it to mean something. The huge flag  
may be an attempt to show the world how big the hole in their heart is.
Perhaps they do equate a big flag with a love of country more than  
they equate helping a neighbor to a love of country. If that is their  
priority then my heart goes out to them. There is joy in helping  
others that they will never know and every time I see the flag I will  
wish them luck in finding true joy.
Perhaps they are scared and a very large flag gives them a sense of  
certainty about the future. Ancient cultures took great comfort in  
totems and for some people a huge flag likely serves the same function.

I will try to take the flag in stride and not let it distract me from  
what is true about Forest Grove. It can serve as a reminder that what  
we actually do will have a more lasting effect than any flag that  
eventually tatters. Huge flags and flag poles will go out of style on  
their own accord and we can return to a time when it is the  
symbolism, not the size that reminds us of what our country stands  
for.  Some one out there is hurting and needed this flag. Perhaps  
that is why they remain anonymous. Let's use the flag as a reminder  
that there is still work to do to bring Forest Grove to the place  
where all the homeless have shelter, where progress can be made in  
open meetings, where yes, there has been a rebirth but we have yet to  
finish the regrowth that comes after as well.

A flag of the appropriate size would have been nice, but we have a  
flag that is too large. In the overall scheme of things the mistake  
of having an oversize flag can be forgiven. Hopefully, when people  
see the flag, if they think it 'doth protest too much' they will stay  
a while and get to know the whole of Forest Grove.

Katie




On Apr 23, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously  
> grotesque IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot  
> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident  
> because of this monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that  
> anyone who drives through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by  
> this abhorant flag, will think that our community is overrun by  
> redneck Republicans who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti- 
> women, and against spending tax dollars to help people and the  
> environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city being  
> portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and  
> see all those homeless people standing around less than a block  
> away from this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from  
> wondering, "How many of them could be fed for a very, very long  
> time for what that monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you  
> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good  
> you do for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars  
> you've illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against  
> the wrong enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name  
> of capitalism. I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag  
> waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally booted out  
> at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth  
> in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to  
> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush  
> Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this  
> crass monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they  
> roll up their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves?  
> I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we
>> can!"?  :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>   Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>   To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>   Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>>   No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>>   bob
>>   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>   chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From ron at ronhowden.com  Fri Apr 24 07:51:20 2009
From: ron at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:51:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
Message-ID: <20090424145123.C01FD269EB1E@barracuda2.peak.org>

Maybe they are grateful for  the opportunities they experienced because this is a free country.
Ron H.

-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:41 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

While I agree with you on the flag being too large, I have had a hard  
time trying to decide why it is a problem for me.
People who know Forest Grove know that there are enough of us who  
support the peace movement, PFLAG, shop local movements, alternative  
medicine, etc to know that the town is not over run with people who  
substitute a lapel pin for patriotism.
So I had to ask myself, why would people want this flag?  And since I  
have no idea who the donors are, I'll have to guess.
Perhaps they have lost a son or daughter to the horrors of the war in  
Iraq and they desperately want it to mean something. The huge flag  
may be an attempt to show the world how big the hole in their heart is.
Perhaps they do equate a big flag with a love of country more than  
they equate helping a neighbor to a love of country. If that is their  
priority then my heart goes out to them. There is joy in helping  
others that they will never know and every time I see the flag I will  
wish them luck in finding true joy.
Perhaps they are scared and a very large flag gives them a sense of  
certainty about the future. Ancient cultures took great comfort in  
totems and for some people a huge flag likely serves the same function.

I will try to take the flag in stride and not let it distract me from  
what is true about Forest Grove. It can serve as a reminder that what  
we actually do will have a more lasting effect than any flag that  
eventually tatters. Huge flags and flag poles will go out of style on  
their own accord and we can return to a time when it is the  
symbolism, not the size that reminds us of what our country stands  


[The entire original message is not included]


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 08:15:23 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:15:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] sobering sign of the recession
In-Reply-To: <A13CC84F-1AB5-4E91-A3BF-0545C8290C59@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNCEEPMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

The big problem is our thinking. We think our home should be worth more.
The bottom line is that your home is worth what people will pay for it.
Those new homes were sold at a price that sells. You could easily say that
the homes were 2x over priced.
On average the stock market goes up about 7% a year. Homes about 5%.
We've been through a few bubbles in the last decade.
I picked a point for the stock market a few years ago at about 1946 when the
market looked to be about average. Extrapolating from there, got me a DJ
average of around 7500 today.
For homes, I'd say go back to the mid sixties. Could be wrong there, but
just a guess. You can't go back to the 80s because of the downturn then.
Then take 5%/year and see what your house is worth.

I purchased a home at the top of a bubble in 1990 for $250k. I sold it three
years later for $155k. Through the internet, I found that home sold in 2001
for $210k. Today the home is worth about $275k according to zillow.

The question I see here is: What will the assessor do about the values this
year?
I know I protested when the assessments went up. But the bottom line then
was that I really could have sold at those prices then. The old assessors
line worked, "Would you sell me the property for that price?" If you say No,
then they have you.
I guess today we could turn that around and ask the assessor to please buy
the property at the appraised value. Please.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Martha Khoury
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:34 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] sobering sign of the recession
>
>
> I was surprised how low our appraisal was when we refinanced last June
> for our addition. The appraiser mentioned that some new homes are
> being sold at half-price to off-load them. I also read recently in the
> paper about a developer selling homes at a loss to keep his company
> solvent. This doesn't help our home values when they're looking for
> comps. Our appraiser definitely had a bias against old houses, as well.
>
> --Martha K.
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
> > We had our home appraised as part of the refi process to lower our
> > home mortgage interest rate.  The appraised value came in at 37%
> > less than the Real Market Value (RMV) appraisal shown on last year's
> > property tax statement.  And since Washington County's RMV appraisal
> > is usually at least 7% less than the market value of a home, that
> > means according to the Certified Appraiser who appraised our home,
> > that Appraiser shows a drop of at least 44% since last year.  Ouch!
> >
> > I'm thinking of contacting another appraiser as I'm not necessarily
> > convinced our property's value decreased that much in less than a
> > year.  But if a greater than 35% drop, or even greater than 25-30%
> > drop in assessed value is correct, I am *SO GLAD* I am not employed
> > in the property tax assessment office as the tax assessers are going
> > to have a devil of a time this year, not to mention all the
> > homeowners who might contest their assessed property value come late
> > this year.
> >
> > Allen Warren
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 08:15:23 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:15:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNEEEPMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

Holly, what would you say if I said that I also felt the flag to be quit out
of this world.
And yes, you would hang those descriptions on me in your bias. (even though
it doesn't describe me.)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a?Forest Grove resident because of
> this monstrous display of "patriotism".?I fear that anyone who drives
> through?Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag,?will
> think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and
> I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> unprogressive?manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of
> them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity
> cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how
> many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got
> past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya
> was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> Bush Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity?gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat?
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local?
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous?
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
> > Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'?? "Because we?
> > can!"?? :-)
> >
> > Allen Warren
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> >? -----Original Message-----
> >? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> >? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> >? To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> >? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to?
> > the other
> > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no?
> > money to buy
> > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the?
> > additional funds
> > needed??
> >
> >? bob
> >? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >? chuck wrote:
> > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> >
> > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> >
> > Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 08:15:23 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:15:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <7798F7EA-B649-4392-8BF2-84631AC02B70@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNGEEPMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

I blame Kidd. The city didn't have to accept it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:41 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > A flag of the appropriate size would have been nice, but we have a  
> flag that is too large. In the overall scheme of things the mistake  
> of having an oversize flag can be forgiven. Hopefully, when people  
> see the flag, if they think it 'doth protest too much' they will stay  
> a while and get to know the whole of Forest Grove.
> 
> Katie
> 
> > 

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Fri Apr 24 08:23:40 2009
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:23:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in the Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit to the Arizona was overwhelming.

My Dad and I took very different paths in life, but he was always supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that thoughtful understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.  

Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.  Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but what it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and dreams remain to be fulfilled.

Peace,

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a?Forest Grove resident because of this monstrous display of "patriotism".?I fear that anyone who drives through?Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag,?will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive?manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each other. 

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass monstrosity?gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat? 
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local? 
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous? 
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'?? "Because we? 
> can!"?? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>? To: Forest Grove local interests list
>? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to? 
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no? 
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the? 
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>? bob
>? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>? chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 08:32:51 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNEEEPMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNEEEPMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <217640.27135.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I would say I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence. Would you please explain?

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:15:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Holly, what would you say if I said that I also felt the flag to be quit out
of this world.
And yes, you would hang those descriptions on me in your bias. (even though
it doesn't describe me.)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of
> this monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will
> think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and
> I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of
> them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity
> cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how
> many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got
> past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya
> was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> Bush Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat 
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local 
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous 
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
> > Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we 
> > can!"?  :-)
> >
> > Allen Warren
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> >  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> >  To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> >  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to 
> > the other
> > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no 
> > money to buy
> > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the 
> > additional funds
> > needed??
> >
> >  bob
> >  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >  chuck wrote:
> > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> >
> > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> >
> > Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 08:43:55 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <ad09ca9500b29f523abb214dbc50cfaa.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
	<113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ad09ca9500b29f523abb214dbc50cfaa.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
Message-ID: <899048.73395.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

What do you mean? 

And how would you feel if you expressed strong, sincere feelings about the flag and I told you to "GET A GRIP"?

Holly




________________________________
From: "jawelch at coho.net" <jawelch at coho.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:28:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag





Holly - With all
due respect - - GET A GRIP!
John

> I agree, Walt. I
will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO.
Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> 
> As Tom
Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
> 
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
resident because of
> this monstrous display of
"patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
>
through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
flag, will
> think that our community is overrun by redneck
Republicans who are
> pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women,
and against spending tax
> dollars to help people and the
environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and
> I resent my city
being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
>
unprogressive manner.
> 
> The next time I pass the bus
stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless
people standing around less than a block away from this
>
monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many
of
> them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
monstrosity
> cost?"
> 
> For me, the mark of
a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping
your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally
and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
enemy, and how
> many forests you've cut down in the name of
capitalism. I thought we got
> past all that ridiculous flag
waving and conservative leanings when Dubya
> was finally booted
out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> there was a
rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> their
best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> Bush Administration, and to help each other.
> 
> I
wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this
crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than
themselves? I wonder.
> 
> Holly Tsur
> 
>

> 
> 
> 
>
________________________________
>
From: Walt Wentz
<waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009
9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>

> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes
me as somewhat 
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few
years ago-- when local 
> sign codes limited the size of their
signs, they just flew humungous 
> American flags to attract
attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit
overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen
Warren wrote:
> 
>> Bigger is better?  One better than
the Jones'?  "Because we 
>> can!"?  :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
From:
Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local
interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday,
April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one
big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why
there is a humongous flag?
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> 
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>  To:
Forest Grove local interests list
>>  Subject: Re: [Grovenet]
That's one big flag
>>
>>
>>  No chuck,
Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to 
>> the
other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
City has no 
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag
when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or,
maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the 
>> additional
funds
>> needed??
>>
>>  bob
>>  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> 
chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town
for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>>
Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 08:50:59 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:50:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <217640.27135.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNIEFAMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

It is a question. Out of this world, meaning quite too large for the
surroundings.
I ask it because we agree even though I am not a redneck Democrat who is
pro-terrorist, anti-life, anti-straight, anti-men, and for wasting tax
dollars while saying it is to help people and the environment.

Is that clear?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:33 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I would say I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence. Would
> you please explain?
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:15:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Holly, what would you say if I said that I also felt the flag to be quit
> out
> of this world.
> And yes, you would hang those descriptions on me in your bias. (even
> though
> it doesn't describe me.)
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Holly T.
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> > I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> > IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> >
> > As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
> Climates,
> > "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
> >
> > I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of
> > this monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> > through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag,
> will
> > think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> > pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> > dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
> and
> > I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> > unprogressive manner.
> >
> > The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
> all
> > those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> > monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of
> > them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity
> > cost?"
> >
> > For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> > helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for
> your
> > community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> > immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how
> > many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got
> > past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
> Dubya
> > was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> > there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> > their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by
> the
> > Bush Administration, and to help each other.
> >
> > I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> > monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> > sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
> >
> > Holly Tsur
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> > like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> > sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> > American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> > It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> > Walt
> > On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >
> > > Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we
> > > can!"?  :-)
> > >
> > > Allen Warren
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > > Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> > >  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> > >  To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > >  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > >
> > >  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
> > > the other
> > > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
> > > money to buy
> > > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> > > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
> > > additional funds
> > > needed??
> > >
> > >  bob
> > >  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > >  chuck wrote:
> > > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> > >
> > > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> > >
> > > Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 08:58:40 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:58:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com><555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <2AD141A9C31741C088567F5DC62463B0@gerianehzkfhvy>

Can empathize with Holly's feelings. But! Have to say that the American flag is meaningful to me (whatever size), too, by making me think about early thoughts and ideas behind our country, those that caused our country to be formed in the first place ... not the distorted thinking (ideas of people who never would have come up with the idea of a country such as we have) now too often associated with it.


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in the Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit to the Arizona was overwhelming.

My Dad and I took very different paths in life, but he was always supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that thoughtful understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.  

Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.  Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but what it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and dreams remain to be fulfilled.

Peace,

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of this monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each other. 

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat 
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local 
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous 
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we 
> can!"? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to 
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no 
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the 
> additional funds
> needed??
>
> bob
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 09:22:20 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:22:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing
Message-ID: <464A607AFFC24B1CAAFA62258C5A4682@gerianehzkfhvy>

Does anyone have good plumber recommendations?

Would appreciate it very much~
                                                     Geri

From obrzl at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 09:23:19 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:23:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
Message-ID: <910361.32553.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


There are two big problems with the big flag.? First, the size is inappropriate; second the way it was done does not reflect American values.
?
The flag is a cultural accessory.? Properly displayed it is a succinct reminder that?America is an amazing place?filled with wonderful people?united by hard-won liberty and justice.
?
Like any accessory, however, it can be overdone: some women wear too much lipstick, some men wear loud ties or too much aftershave, some cooks use too much salt.
?
And in misuse, or over use, the message is changed, or the wrong message is sent.
?
The big flag dwarfs everything, is that how we want?to symbolize?government?? Is our government a huge, omnipotent eye that looks imperiously down on all of us, seeing, taxing and regulating everything?? Or have we become so fearful that we need ever bigger flags to feel secure?? Is the size intended to bully people who disagree?
?
It's the wrong statement.? It's inappropriate.
?
The second issue is how this was done.? There can be no question that the big flag is a public statement being made in a public place.? But the one thing we can all agree?any American Flag symbolizes -that we live in a land where people get to decide how they want their country run, through elections and other public input- this is precisely?what was left out of the process.? 
?
This thing was shoved down the community's throat by an autocratic government edict.? And that's just plain un-American.
?
Mark Oberzil

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM

Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'???"Because we
can!"?? :-)
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
? -----Original Message-----
? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
? To: Forest Grove local interests list
? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

? bob
? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

? chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 09:53:17 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNIEFAMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNIEFAMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <17801.81906.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Yes. I believe you're clear except it sounds as though you are accusing me of being a redneck Democrat who is pro-terrorist, anti-life, anti-straight, anti-men, and supportive off wasting tax dollars while saying it is to help people and the environment? If that's the case, then I'd say that your accusations are not only misinformed, they're ludicrous. 

What about waging a war and killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis when they and their government had nothing to do with 911? What about taking our country down into the worst economic recession of our lifetimes--largely because of that war and its costs? How many people could have been fed and how many ecosystems could have been restored for the cost of that immoral war with the wrong enemy? I won't even comment about your other ridiculous accusations except to say that I believe that being pro-choice is not synonymous with anti-life. Being pro-choice is about FREEDOM to choose. When pro-lifers start volunteering by the thousands to pay for the life-long care and medical bills of children born with severe birth defects, then I'll start believing that they are putting their money where their mouths are. We don't live in a society that provides adequate aid and assistance to women who get pregnant when they do not wish to. Until we do, I will remain
 pro-choice.

But, I would agree with you about the flag being quite too large for it's surroundings. From an aesthetic point of view, it's horrifically out of place. But, I believe the purchasers wanted it that way. They wanted a flag that would make a very loud statement that imposes their patriotism on an entire community. That seems anti-American to me. Not very Democratic. And not in support of the most basic, underlying principles of our Republic either.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:50:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

It is a question. Out of this world, meaning quite too large for the
surroundings.
I ask it because we agree even though I am not a redneck Democrat who is
pro-terrorist, anti-life, anti-straight, anti-men, and for wasting tax
dollars while saying it is to help people and the environment.

Is that clear?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:33 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I would say I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence. Would
> you please explain?
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:15:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Holly, what would you say if I said that I also felt the flag to be quit
> out
> of this world.
> And yes, you would hang those descriptions on me in your bias. (even
> though
> it doesn't describe me.)
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Holly T.
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> > I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> > IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> >
> > As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
> Climates,
> > "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
> >
> > I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of
> > this monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> > through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag,
> will
> > think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> > pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> > dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
> and
> > I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> > unprogressive manner.
> >
> > The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
> all
> > those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> > monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of
> > them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity
> > cost?"
> >
> > For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> > helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for
> your
> > community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> > immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how
> > many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got
> > past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
> Dubya
> > was finally booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> > there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> > their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by
> the
> > Bush Administration, and to help each other.
> >
> > I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> > monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> > sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
> >
> > Holly Tsur
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> > like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> > sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> > American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> > It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> > Walt
> > On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >
> > > Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we
> > > can!"?  :-)
> > >
> > > Allen Warren
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > > Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> > >  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> > >  To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > >  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > >
> > >  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
> > > the other
> > > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
> > > money to buy
> > > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> > > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
> > > additional funds
> > > needed??
> > >
> > >  bob
> > >  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > >  chuck wrote:
> > > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> > >
> > > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> > >
> > > Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 09:55:04 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:55:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <910361.32553.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <910361.32553.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <376881.96412.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Amen!

Holly




________________________________
From: mark oberzil <obrzl at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:23:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


There are two big problems with the big flag.  First, the size is inappropriate; second the way it was done does not reflect American values.
 
The flag is a cultural accessory.  Properly displayed it is a succinct reminder that America is an amazing place filled with wonderful people united by hard-won liberty and justice.
 
Like any accessory, however, it can be overdone: some women wear too much lipstick, some men wear loud ties or too much aftershave, some cooks use too much salt.
 
And in misuse, or over use, the message is changed, or the wrong message is sent.
 
The big flag dwarfs everything, is that how we want to symbolize government?  Is our government a huge, omnipotent eye that looks imperiously down on all of us, seeing, taxing and regulating everything?  Or have we become so fearful that we need ever bigger flags to feel secure?  Is the size intended to bully people who disagree?
 
It's the wrong statement.  It's inappropriate.
 
The second issue is how this was done.  There can be no question that the big flag is a public statement being made in a public place.  But the one thing we can all agree any American Flag symbolizes -that we live in a land where people get to decide how they want their country run, through elections and other public input- this is precisely what was left out of the process.  
 
This thing was shoved down the community's throat by an autocratic government edict.  And that's just plain un-American.
 
Mark Oberzil

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM

Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we
can!"?  :-)
 
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

  bob
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 10:08:15 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:08:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <376881.96412.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <910361.32553.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<376881.96412.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B4C26AAE-9E16-4F35-866B-107CB2AFAF07@teleport.com>

Yep.
Walt
On Apr 24, 2009, at 9:55 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Amen!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mark oberzil <obrzl at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:23:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> There are two big problems with the big flag.  First, the size is  
> inappropriate; second the way it was done does not reflect American  
> values.
>
> The flag is a cultural accessory.  Properly displayed it is a  
> succinct reminder that America is an amazing place filled with  
> wonderful people united by hard-won liberty and justice.
>
> Like any accessory, however, it can be overdone: some women wear  
> too much lipstick, some men wear loud ties or too much aftershave,  
> some cooks use too much salt.
>
> And in misuse, or over use, the message is changed, or the wrong  
> message is sent.
>
> The big flag dwarfs everything, is that how we want to symbolize  
> government?  Is our government a huge, omnipotent eye that looks  
> imperiously down on all of us, seeing, taxing and regulating  
> everything?  Or have we become so fearful that we need ever bigger  
> flags to feel secure?  Is the size intended to bully people who  
> disagree?
>
> It's the wrong statement.  It's inappropriate.
>
> The second issue is how this was done.  There can be no question  
> that the big flag is a public statement being made in a public  
> place.  But the one thing we can all agree any American Flag  
> symbolizes -that we live in a land where people get to decide how  
> they want their country run, through elections and other public  
> input- this is precisely what was left out of the process.
>
> This thing was shoved down the community's throat by an autocratic  
> government edict.  And that's just plain un-American.
>
> Mark Oberzil
>
> --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM
>
> Bigger is better?  One better than the Jones'?  "Because we
> can!"?  :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>   Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>   To: Forest Grove local interests list
>   Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>   No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to  
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no  
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the  
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>   bob
>   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>   chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 10:12:35 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing
In-Reply-To: <464A607AFFC24B1CAAFA62258C5A4682@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <464A607AFFC24B1CAAFA62258C5A4682@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <854497.6938.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Able Plumbing Co.
Bill Assell
503-490-0845

He was quick, extremely competent, and a great guy. And, he came all the way out from Portland and, even though he said he'd charge extra for mileage, didn't end up costing me nearly as much as others would have. A friend of mine who does real estate investing recommended him.

I can recommend this plumber highly and would definitely call again if I needed a plumber.

Holly




________________________________
From: Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
To: GroveNet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:22:20 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing

Does anyone have good plumber recommendations?

Would appreciate it very much~
                                                     Geri
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 10:14:58 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:14:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <910361.32553.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CFF98EA633EB4D8F8DB3A91EA3B604A7@gerianehzkfhvy>

Well said, Mark.

Although the flag is a gift, I don't recall hearing if the community was asked if this was an appropriate gift to accept.

Honestly, due to the very description of it by the person who told me about it a couple days ago, the first thing that popped into my head was that it was a gift from soon-to-be neighbor WalMart!

---

BTW, GroveNuts, when Mike & I visted Pearl Harbor last summer, I purchase a 2x3 flag there to bring home and fly in honor of my late father-in-law.  Still haven't gotten the small flagpole attached -- a project for before Memorial Day next month.  ;-)

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mark oberzil" <obrzl at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag



There are two big problems with the big flag. First, the size is inappropriate; second the way it was done does not reflect American values.

The flag is a cultural accessory. Properly displayed it is a succinct reminder that America is an amazing place filled with wonderful people united by hard-won liberty and justice.

Like any accessory, however, it can be overdone: some women wear too much lipstick, some men wear loud ties or too much aftershave, some cooks use too much salt.

And in misuse, or over use, the message is changed, or the wrong message is sent.

The big flag dwarfs everything, is that how we want to symbolize government? Is our government a huge, omnipotent eye that looks imperiously down on all of us, seeing, taxing and regulating everything? Or have we become so fearful that we need ever bigger flags to feel secure? Is the size intended to bully people who disagree?

It's the wrong statement. It's inappropriate.

The second issue is how this was done. There can be no question that the big flag is a public statement being made in a public place. But the one thing we can all agree any American Flag symbolizes -that we live in a land where people get to decide how they want their country run, through elections and other public input- this is precisely what was left out of the process. 

This thing was shoved down the community's throat by an autocratic government edict. And that's just plain un-American.

Mark Oberzil

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:49 PM

Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
can!"? :-)

Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to the other
is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no money to buy
the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the additional funds
needed??

bob
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

chuck wrote:
Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.

That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.

Wow.------------------------------------------------------



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 10:15:38 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:15:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing
References: <464A607AFFC24B1CAAFA62258C5A4682@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<854497.6938.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BE92CB42CE1446829B294CDB2FE2B669@gerianehzkfhvy>

Thanks for the rec, Holly!


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Plumbing


> Able Plumbing Co.
> Bill Assell
> 503-490-0845
> 
> He was quick, extremely competent, and a great guy. And, he came all the way out from Portland and, even though he said he'd charge extra for mileage, didn't end up costing me nearly as much as others would have. A friend of mine who does real estate investing recommended him.
> 
> I can recommend this plumber highly and would definitely call again if I needed a plumber.
> 
> Holly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Geri <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> To: GroveNet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:22:20 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing
> 
> Does anyone have good plumber recommendations?
> 
> Would appreciate it very much~
>                                                     Geri
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 10:18:25 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:18:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Plumbing
In-Reply-To: <854497.6938.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <464A607AFFC24B1CAAFA62258C5A4682@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<854497.6938.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7610D611-6D1E-4EBA-B6A1-AC34C907F216@teleport.com>

Holly:
I am going to be working on the Garden today. Are you still scheduled  
to deliver the topsoil about 11?
Walt

From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 11:03:39 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:03:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <20090424145123.C01FD269EB1E@barracuda2.peak.org>
References: <20090424145123.C01FD269EB1E@barracuda2.peak.org>
Message-ID: <C5F12A6A-59D1-4FCE-A841-88D3A1CC7ACF@verizon.net>

We are all grateful for the opportunities that we experience in this  
wonderful country.
A flag of any size makes me feel that way.
I was looking for why they felt the need for an oversized flag.

Katie

On Apr 24, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Ron Howden wrote:

> Maybe they are grateful for  the opportunities they experienced  
> because this is a free country.
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:41 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> While I agree with you on the flag being too large, I have had a hard
> time trying to decide why it is a problem for me.
> People who know Forest Grove know that there are enough of us who
> support the peace movement, PFLAG, shop local movements, alternative
> medicine, etc to know that the town is not over run with people who
> substitute a lapel pin for patriotism.
> So I had to ask myself, why would people want this flag?  And since I
> have no idea who the donors are, I'll have to guess.
> Perhaps they have lost a son or daughter to the horrors of the war in
> Iraq and they desperately want it to mean something. The huge flag
> may be an attempt to show the world how big the hole in their heart  
> is.
> Perhaps they do equate a big flag with a love of country more than
> they equate helping a neighbor to a love of country. If that is their
> priority then my heart goes out to them. There is joy in helping
> others that they will never know and every time I see the flag I will
> wish them luck in finding true joy.
> Perhaps they are scared and a very large flag gives them a sense of
> certainty about the future. Ancient cultures took great comfort in
> totems and for some people a huge flag likely serves the same  
> function.
>
> I will try to take the flag in stride and not let it distract me from
> what is true about Forest Grove. It can serve as a reminder that what
> we actually do will have a more lasting effect than any flag that
> eventually tatters. Huge flags and flag poles will go out of style on
> their own accord and we can return to a time when it is the
> symbolism, not the size that reminds us of what our country stands
>
>
> [The entire original message is not included]
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From stevedj at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 11:49:00 2009
From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:49:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>

Holly,


When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice, anti-gay, anti women
etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of everything you see as
negative about our country ?

Why don't you see it as representative of everyone-gays, straights,
homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a feeling of pride in
the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion, sexual orientation,
etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you feel that it
doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you feel the least bit
apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your assumptions about
the "anonymous family" regardless of  your rhetorically postured approach?
Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those that differ in
opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"

I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.


Steve



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
"The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of this
monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through
Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think that
our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war,
anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to help
people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city
being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of them
could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how many
forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past all
that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally
booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a
rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to
rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush
Administration, and to help each other.

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
> can!"? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
> additional funds
> needed??
>
> bob
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From phoenixacm at aol.com  Fri Apr 24 12:00:17 2009
From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:00:17 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <8CB93260AB8CFA2-DFC-3AA3@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com>

Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never 
realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said, 
"...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to 
each new generation.

I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's flag? 
  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag 
when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as 
a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend 
the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may 
not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.

Jane B-P


Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still 
spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor 
last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in the 
Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack 
hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit 
to the Arizona was overwhelming.

My Dad and I took very different paths in 
life, but he was always 
supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that thoughtful 
understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and 
the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen 
understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he 
never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's 
way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He 
taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.

Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.  
Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke 
to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but what 
it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and 
dreams remain to be fulfilled.

Peace,

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
 From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque 
IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot 
Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a?Forest Grove resident because of 
this monstrous dis
play of "patriotism".?I fear that anyone who drives 
through?Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant 
flag,?will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans 
who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against 
spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY 
Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, 
conservative, unprogressive?manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see 
all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from 
this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How 
many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that 
monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you 
spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do 
for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've 
illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong 
enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. 
I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative 
leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was 
sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth 
whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the 
horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
other.

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass 
monstrosity?gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up 
their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat?
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local?
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous?
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better?? One better than the Jones'?? "Because we?
> can!"?? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>? Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>? To: Forest Grove local in
terests list
>? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>? No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to?
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no?
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the?
> additional funds
> needed??
>
>? bob
>? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>? chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 12:02:30 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:02:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<8CB93260AB8CFA2-DFC-3AA3@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <B1F8435AED8349C3A356D6423983C34D@gerianehzkfhvy>

Amen, Jane.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never 
> realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said, 
> "...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to 
> each new generation.
> 
> I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's flag? 
>  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag 
> when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as 
> a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend 
> the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may 
> not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.
> 
> Jane B-P
> 
> 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> 
> I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still 
> spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor 
> last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in the 
> Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack 
> hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit 
> to the Arizona was overwhelming.
> 
> My Dad and I took very different paths in 
> life, but he was always 
> supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that thoughtful 
> understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and 
> the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen 
> understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he 
> never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's 
> way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He 
> taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.
> 
> Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.  
> Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke 
> to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but what 
> it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and 
> dreams remain to be fulfilled.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> --Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> 
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque 
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> 
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot 
> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
> 
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of 
> this monstrous dis
> play of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives 
> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant 
> flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans 
> who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against 
> spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY 
> Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless, 
> conservative, unprogressive manner.
> 
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see 
> all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from 
> this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How 
> many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that 
> monstrosity cost?"
> 
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you 
> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do 
> for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've 
> illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong 
> enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. 
> I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative 
> leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was 
> sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth 
> whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the 
> horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
> other.
> 
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass 
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up 
> their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
> 
> Holly Tsur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> 
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat 
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local 
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous 
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> 
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we 
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local in
> terests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to 
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no 
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the 
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 12:08:13 2009
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:08:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Odd flu
Message-ID: <DF1E2794FC7540B5976E2C96DF2100A4@gerianehzkfhvy>

" ... It first looked mostly like a swine virus but closer analysis showed it is a never-before-seen mixture of swine, human and avian viruses... "

http://tinyurl.com/d3yhtk 

What a mixture!


Geri

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 13:10:55 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com>
	<555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
Message-ID: <737233.77423.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Steve,

I believe that such a huge flag, in particular, portrays our fine city as one whose residents are largely conservative in their political viewpoints because of the flag-waving tendencies of the conservative right and all the damage they have done to our country over the past eight years. I, for one, am not proud of the direction my country has taken during the past eight years and I'm not ashamed to say so. We went to war with the wrong enemy for the wrong reasons. We allowed that war and the incompetent economic programs of the Bush Administration to take our economy down to the lowest level and with the highest deficit of my lifetime. I don't think our country is in a very good position right now to celebrate our nationalism by waving a giant flag that shouts, "I'm proud to be an American, the home of the free and the brave!" 

I believe our country has come very close to economic collapse largely due to the very flag-waving, conservative, militaristic influences in this country. Had our government put more energy into creating jobs, stopping outsourcing of jobs to other countries, preserving our environment, and not engaging in a war with the wrong enemy because Dubya and Cheney wanted to increase their oil profits, then we might have greater cause for national pride. 

Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring positive change to my community and to my country. I think that's what needs to be done by people and not a bunch of grotesque flag waving. For me, erecting such a huge flag is just throwing up a giant smoke screen that says, "My country right or wrong" and "God bless America!" when we have important and hard work to do to bring our country back to a place where we can be proud of it again.

I also believe that blind nationalism--the kind I observe from people who tend to be flag-wavers--can be very dangerous. Just look what happened in Nazi Germany with respect to blind nationalism. Blind nationalism, too often, makes people oblivious to and even hostile toward diversity. Most of the conservative flag-wavers I have observed are not exactly supportive of diversity.

Plus, during the Bush Administration, it seemed there was a direct attempt on the part of our government to "dumb down" the populace. To raise issues like the importance of being patriotic and waving flags and supporting out troops rather than involving people in helping to solve real issues like homelessness, jobs creation, and environmental preservation.

I think the size of this humongous flag is largely what angers me. I don't think I would be nearly so outraged were it as small, say, as the one flying outside the Elk's Lodge about a block away.  It's just way out of proportion for the size of our town and for its location. It seems to scream NATIONALISM in all its ugly shades to me. It's like someone is trying to force something down my throat. I resent it. Hugely.

I believe if you brought a busload of gays to Forest Grove on a sunny day when this giant flag was waving in all its grotesque "glory", most of them would feel very uncomfortable once they saw it. They would feel like they were entering some very unfriendly territory. A town in which conservatives rule and where they would not be welcome. I know I would feel this way if I were gay. I'd also feel the same way if I were an immigrant from Mexico or any other country. I wouldn't have the same reaction if the flag were the size of the one in front of the Elk's Lodge. It's the VOLUME of the message that seems to SCREAM at you that I'm concerned about, not the message itself.

I know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and not at all proud about my community when I have to answer them. I will have to tell them that this was an unilateral decision that was ramrodded down the throats of Forest Grove residents by the City Council without adequate citizen input. I will have to tell them how ironic it is that there are often homeless people standing around less than a block away from this $20,000 expenditure by the city. I will have to tell them how angry I am about it.

I don't believe it's me who is intolerant here, Steve. Intolerance is what I fear will happen if this monstrous symbol has the effect of attracting more conservatives to our community. I know that as a progressive Democrat, if I were exploring the possibility of moving to Forest Grove, I would think twice about my decision to move here if I saw this flag as I drove into town. This grotesque symbol could tip the balance and take our community in a dangerous and backward political direction that I wouldn't like to see.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:49:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Holly,


When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice, anti-gay, anti women
etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of everything you see as
negative about our country ?

Why don't you see it as representative of everyone-gays, straights,
homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a feeling of pride in
the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion, sexual orientation,
etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you feel that it
doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you feel the least bit
apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your assumptions about
the "anonymous family" regardless of  your rhetorically postured approach?
Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those that differ in
opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"

I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.


Steve



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.

As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
"The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."

I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of this
monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through
Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think that
our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war,
anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to help
people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my city
being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.

The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of them
could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"

For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how many
forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past all
that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was finally
booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a
rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to
rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush
Administration, and to help each other.

I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.

Holly Tsur





________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
American flags to attract attention to themselves.
It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
Walt
On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
> can!"? :-)
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
> the other
> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
> money to buy
> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
> additional funds
> needed??
>
> bob
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> chuck wrote:
> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>
> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From stevedj at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 13:33:46 2009
From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:33:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03B7CE82CD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<8CB93260AB8CFA2-DFC-3AA3@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A537C8DD861B44838A67E1D3E5A2F49D@Maincomputer>

Jane,

I am truly curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that the 
radical right has "co-opted" the flag.

It is obvious the flag stirs differing emotions in everyone. The flag is an 
icon for our country, and our country's strengths and weaknesses are a 
matter of individual interpretation. I don't feel threatened if others see 
the flag as symbolic of a differing philosophy. The fact that you see a 
difference of opinion as "co-opting" indicates to me that you foster and 
adversarial, intolerant position.

I feel that it is one of our unique strengths as a society  that even 
patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis. Universal fear and 
paranoia are natural human tendencies that usurp our ability to achieve a 
functionally diverse and tolerant society.

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never
> realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said,
> "...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to
> each new generation.
>
> I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's flag?
>  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag
> when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as
> a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend
> the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may
> not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still
> spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor
> last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in the
> Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack
> hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit
> to the Arizona was overwhelming.
>
> My Dad and I took very different paths in
> life, but he was always
> supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that thoughtful
> understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and
> the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen
> understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he
> never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's
> way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He
> taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.
>
> Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.
> Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke
> to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but what
> it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and
> dreams remain to be fulfilled.
>
> Peace,
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of
> this monstrous dis
> play of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans
> who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against
> spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY
> Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless,
> conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
> all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from
> this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How
> many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you
> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do
> for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've
> illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism.
> I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative
> leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was
> sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth
> whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the
> horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
> other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up
> their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local in
> terests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From stevedj at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 14:04:26 2009
From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:04:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com><555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com><235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<737233.77423.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F31D45DC282541EFB353A487D55C8067@Maincomputer>

Holly wrote:
"I  know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many 
will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and 
not at all proud about my community "

How sad for you that you are embarrassed because there are others in your 
community that think and feel differently than you. It seems that a person 
that professes to "celebrate diversity" would be proud to live an co-exist 
with those with differing viewpoints.

I'm sure that many residents of San Francisco are embarrased and ashamed of 
the large gay community there.  I'm sure that many straights feel that 
homosexuality is being "ramrodded" there.  I can imagine the same 
conversation played out by an embarrased and apologetic resident having to 
explain the huge "gay pride" parade passing by his house. It goes both ways.

"Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far 
better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring 
positive change to my community and to my country"

Please keep in mind that what is positive to you may be negative to others, 
and vice-versa and that many people of all persuaions work hard to bring 
about change. Many do it with humility. You may be surprised to find out 
that  many folks you chastise do a lot of positive things for society, even 
by your standards, but behind the scenes. Who knows, maybe the flag donors 
are even more magnanimous toward society than you?

My major point of conteneion with your original rant is that  make 
assumptions, manifested by divisive labeling, that put you in the same 
category as those you so vehemently oppose.


Steve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Hi Steve,
>
> I believe that such a huge flag, in particular, portrays our fine city as 
> one whose residents are largely conservative in their political viewpoints 
> because of the flag-waving tendencies of the conservative right and all 
> the damage they have done to our country over the past eight years. I, for 
> one, am not proud of the direction my country has taken during the past 
> eight years and I'm not ashamed to say so. We went to war with the wrong 
> enemy for the wrong reasons. We allowed that war and the incompetent 
> economic programs of the Bush Administration to take our economy down to 
> the lowest level and with the highest deficit of my lifetime. I don't 
> think our country is in a very good position right now to celebrate our 
> nationalism by waving a giant flag that shouts, "I'm proud to be an 
> American, the home of the free and the brave!"
>
> I believe our country has come very close to economic collapse largely due 
> to the very flag-waving, conservative, militaristic influences in this 
> country. Had our government put more energy into creating jobs, stopping 
> outsourcing of jobs to other countries, preserving our environment, and 
> not engaging in a war with the wrong enemy because Dubya and Cheney wanted 
> to increase their oil profits, then we might have greater cause for 
> national pride.
>
> Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far 
> better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring 
> positive change to my community and to my country. I think that's what 
> needs to be done by people and not a bunch of grotesque flag waving. For 
> me, erecting such a huge flag is just throwing up a giant smoke screen 
> that says, "My country right or wrong" and "God bless America!" when we 
> have important and hard work to do to bring our country back to a place 
> where we can be proud of it again.
>
> I also believe that blind nationalism--the kind I observe from people who 
> tend to be flag-wavers--can be very dangerous. Just look what happened in 
> Nazi Germany with respect to blind nationalism. Blind nationalism, too 
> often, makes people oblivious to and even hostile toward diversity. Most 
> of the conservative flag-wavers I have observed are not exactly supportive 
> of diversity.
>
> Plus, during the Bush Administration, it seemed there was a direct attempt 
> on the part of our government to "dumb down" the populace. To raise issues 
> like the importance of being patriotic and waving flags and supporting out 
> troops rather than involving people in helping to solve real issues like 
> homelessness, jobs creation, and environmental preservation.
>
> I think the size of this humongous flag is largely what angers me. I don't 
> think I would be nearly so outraged were it as small, say, as the one 
> flying outside the Elk's Lodge about a block away.  It's just way out of 
> proportion for the size of our town and for its location. It seems to 
> scream NATIONALISM in all its ugly shades to me. It's like someone is 
> trying to force something down my throat. I resent it. Hugely.
>
> I believe if you brought a busload of gays to Forest Grove on a sunny day 
> when this giant flag was waving in all its grotesque "glory", most of them 
> would feel very uncomfortable once they saw it. They would feel like they 
> were entering some very unfriendly territory. A town in which 
> conservatives rule and where they would not be welcome. I know I would 
> feel this way if I were gay. I'd also feel the same way if I were an 
> immigrant from Mexico or any other country. I wouldn't have the same 
> reaction if the flag were the size of the one in front of the Elk's Lodge. 
> It's the VOLUME of the message that seems to SCREAM at you that I'm 
> concerned about, not the message itself.
>
> I know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many 
> will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and 
> not at all proud about my community when I have to answer them. I will 
> have to tell them that this was an unilateral decision that was ramrodded 
> down the throats of Forest Grove residents by the City Council without 
> adequate citizen input. I will have to tell them how ironic it is that 
> there are often homeless people standing around less than a block away 
> from this $20,000 expenditure by the city. I will have to tell them how 
> angry I am about it.
>
> I don't believe it's me who is intolerant here, Steve. Intolerance is what 
> I fear will happen if this monstrous symbol has the effect of attracting 
> more conservatives to our community. I know that as a progressive 
> Democrat, if I were exploring the possibility of moving to Forest Grove, I 
> would think twice about my decision to move here if I saw this flag as I 
> drove into town. This grotesque symbol could tip the balance and take our 
> community in a dangerous and backward political direction that I wouldn't 
> like to see.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:49:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Holly,
>
>
> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice, anti-gay, anti women
> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of everything you see as
> negative about our country ?
>
> Why don't you see it as representative of everyone-gays, straights,
> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a feeling of pride 
> in
> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion, sexual 
> orientation,
> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you feel that it
> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you feel the least bit
> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your assumptions about
> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your rhetorically postured approach?
> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those that differ in
> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
>
> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of 
> this
> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through
> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think 
> that
> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war,
> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to 
> help
> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my 
> city
> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of 
> them
> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how 
> many
> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past 
> all
> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was 
> finally
> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a
> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to
> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush
> Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 15:02:56 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <F31D45DC282541EFB353A487D55C8067@Maincomputer>
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com><555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com><235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<737233.77423.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<F31D45DC282541EFB353A487D55C8067@Maincomputer>
Message-ID: <815529.47275.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'm not embarrassed because there are others in my community who feel differently than me at all, Steve. I'm embarrassed by this grotesque symbol that is being imposed upon my community. A symbol that, over the past eight years, has come to represent conservatism, militarism, and intolerance by an eight-year administration that has represented the worst thing that has happened to this country in terms of international policies, environmental policies, and economic policies, among others. An administration that frequently used flag-waving patriotism as a smoke screen to dumb down the populace so as to keep people from protesting about bigger issues. 

Seems to me that if you're truly all about diversity and tolerance, you'd be in favor of rotating flags so that nationalities from all foreign nationales who live in this city might be recognized. I wonder how you'd feel about that. I, for one, would feel much better about that scenario than the one that's been shoved down our throats. But, either way, I'd like to see much smaller flags. Flags that don't shout at you when you arrive.

No doubt there are some people who live in San Francisco who object to gay pride marches. But, I think we're talking about something very different here. San Francisco's gay pride march is in protest to human rights violations that are continually being perpetrated against a minority that deserves equal treatment. They're protest marches that will someday, hopefully, help to promote equality for this historically persecuted minority. The raising of this giant flag is a completely different story. It's about how one family has been allowed to impose their giant symbol of what they consider to be "patriotic" on an entire community without the consent of the people. I believe it sends a message of conservatism and intolerance to anyone who comes to our fair city. And I believe it stands to tip the balance toward discouraging those who are politically progressive from wanting to live here. And it stands to tip the balance toward encouraging those who are
 more politically conservative to move here.

And current failed economic, environmental, and international policies have proven what a disaster the last eight years of a conservative regime has been for this country. Most experts predict that it will take far more than eight years to clean up the mess that has been left behind by our past administration. I just wouldn't wish to see our community devolve back in that direction again.

Holly






________________________________
From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 2:04:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Holly wrote:
"I  know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many 
will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and 
not at all proud about my community "

How sad for you that you are embarrassed because there are others in your 
community that think and feel differently than you. It seems that a person 
that professes to "celebrate diversity" would be proud to live an co-exist 
with those with differing viewpoints.

I'm sure that many residents of San Francisco are embarrased and ashamed of 
the large gay community there.  I'm sure that many straights feel that 
homosexuality is being "ramrodded" there.  I can imagine the same 
conversation played out by an embarrased and apologetic resident having to 
explain the huge "gay pride" parade passing by his house. It goes both ways.

"Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far 
better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring 
positive change to my community and to my country"

Please keep in mind that what is positive to you may be negative to others, 
and vice-versa and that many people of all persuaions work hard to bring 
about change. Many do it with humility. You may be surprised to find out 
that  many folks you chastise do a lot of positive things for society, even 
by your standards, but behind the scenes. Who knows, maybe the flag donors 
are even more magnanimous toward society than you?

My major point of conteneion with your original rant is that  make 
assumptions, manifested by divisive labeling, that put you in the same 
category as those you so vehemently oppose.


Steve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Hi Steve,
>
> I believe that such a huge flag, in particular, portrays our fine city as 
> one whose residents are largely conservative in their political viewpoints 
> because of the flag-waving tendencies of the conservative right and all 
> the damage they have done to our country over the past eight years. I, for 
> one, am not proud of the direction my country has taken during the past 
> eight years and I'm not ashamed to say so. We went to war with the wrong 
> enemy for the wrong reasons. We allowed that war and the incompetent 
> economic programs of the Bush Administration to take our economy down to 
> the lowest level and with the highest deficit of my lifetime. I don't 
> think our country is in a very good position right now to celebrate our 
> nationalism by waving a giant flag that shouts, "I'm proud to be an 
> American, the home of the free and the brave!"
>
> I believe our country has come very close to economic collapse largely due 
> to the very flag-waving, conservative, militaristic influences in this 
> country. Had our government put more energy into creating jobs, stopping 
> outsourcing of jobs to other countries, preserving our environment, and 
> not engaging in a war with the wrong enemy because Dubya and Cheney wanted 
> to increase their oil profits, then we might have greater cause for 
> national pride.
>
> Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far 
> better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring 
> positive change to my community and to my country. I think that's what 
> needs to be done by people and not a bunch of grotesque flag waving. For 
> me, erecting such a huge flag is just throwing up a giant smoke screen 
> that says, "My country right or wrong" and "God bless America!" when we 
> have important and hard work to do to bring our country back to a place 
> where we can be proud of it again.
>
> I also believe that blind nationalism--the kind I observe from people who 
> tend to be flag-wavers--can be very dangerous. Just look what happened in 
> Nazi Germany with respect to blind nationalism. Blind nationalism, too 
> often, makes people oblivious to and even hostile toward diversity. Most 
> of the conservative flag-wavers I have observed are not exactly supportive 
> of diversity.
>
> Plus, during the Bush Administration, it seemed there was a direct attempt 
> on the part of our government to "dumb down" the populace. To raise issues 
> like the importance of being patriotic and waving flags and supporting out 
> troops rather than involving people in helping to solve real issues like 
> homelessness, jobs creation, and environmental preservation.
>
> I think the size of this humongous flag is largely what angers me. I don't 
> think I would be nearly so outraged were it as small, say, as the one 
> flying outside the Elk's Lodge about a block away.  It's just way out of 
> proportion for the size of our town and for its location. It seems to 
> scream NATIONALISM in all its ugly shades to me. It's like someone is 
> trying to force something down my throat. I resent it. Hugely.
>
> I believe if you brought a busload of gays to Forest Grove on a sunny day 
> when this giant flag was waving in all its grotesque "glory", most of them 
> would feel very uncomfortable once they saw it. They would feel like they 
> were entering some very unfriendly territory. A town in which 
> conservatives rule and where they would not be welcome. I know I would 
> feel this way if I were gay. I'd also feel the same way if I were an 
> immigrant from Mexico or any other country. I wouldn't have the same 
> reaction if the flag were the size of the one in front of the Elk's Lodge. 
> It's the VOLUME of the message that seems to SCREAM at you that I'm 
> concerned about, not the message itself.
>
> I know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many 
> will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and 
> not at all proud about my community when I have to answer them. I will 
> have to tell them that this was an unilateral decision that was ramrodded 
> down the throats of Forest Grove residents by the City Council without 
> adequate citizen input. I will have to tell them how ironic it is that 
> there are often homeless people standing around less than a block away 
> from this $20,000 expenditure by the city. I will have to tell them how 
> angry I am about it.
>
> I don't believe it's me who is intolerant here, Steve. Intolerance is what 
> I fear will happen if this monstrous symbol has the effect of attracting 
> more conservatives to our community. I know that as a progressive 
> Democrat, if I were exploring the possibility of moving to Forest Grove, I 
> would think twice about my decision to move here if I saw this flag as I 
> drove into town. This grotesque symbol could tip the balance and take our 
> community in a dangerous and backward political direction that I wouldn't 
> like to see.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:49:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Holly,
>
>
> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice, anti-gay, anti women
> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of everything you see as
> negative about our country ?
>
> Why don't you see it as representative of everyone-gays, straights,
> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a feeling of pride 
> in
> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion, sexual 
> orientation,
> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you feel that it
> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you feel the least bit
> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your assumptions about
> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your rhetorically postured approach?
> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those that differ in
> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
>
> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of 
> this
> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through
> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think 
> that
> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war,
> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to 
> help
> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my 
> city
> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of 
> them
> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how 
> many
> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past 
> all
> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was 
> finally
> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a
> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to
> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush
> Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From zipdigity at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 16:25:01 2009
From: zipdigity at gmail.com (Zip Digity)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:25:01 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] beautiful big flag
Message-ID: <2f1a98fe0904241625l53b4f7act69b685dfa8075db1@mail.gmail.com>

The flag is beautiful! People should just be happy about it instead of
questioning and bitching about everything!!!!!!!!!!  I don't even want to
sit here and read all the negativity; I would rather spend my time being
happy.  And another thing, who scrubbs messages?  What is that about?

From jllesq at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 16:44:59 2009
From: jllesq at yahoo.com (Jim Lucas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <17801.81906.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <440690.85191.qm@web52910.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


I think the flag lookd great. I have heard the same from more than a few others. Maybe that is why Basken Robbins has so many flavors.  Jim Lucas
. Out of this world, meaning quite too
> large for the
> surroundings.
> I ask it because we agree even though I am not a redneck
> Democrat who is
> pro-terrorist, anti-life, anti-straight, anti-men, and for
> wasting tax
> dollars while saying it is to help people and the
> environment.
> 
> Is that clear?
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
> [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Holly T.
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:33 AM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> > I would say I don't understand what you mean by
> your first sentence. Would
> > you please explain?
> >
> > Holly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:15:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Holly, what would you say if I said that I also felt
> the flag to be quit
> > out
> > of this world.
> > And yes, you would hang those descriptions on me in
> your bias. (even
> > though
> > it doesn't describe me.)
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
> [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Holly T.
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing
> is hideously grotesque
> > > IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her
> grave.
> > >
> > > As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids
> Home from Hot
> > Climates,
> > > "The more advertising I see, the less I want
> to buy."
> > >
> > > I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest
> Grove resident because of
> > > this monstrous display of "patriotism".
> I fear that anyone who drives
> > > through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by
> this abhorant flag,
> > will
> > > think that our community is overrun by redneck
> Republicans who are
> > > pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and
> against spending tax
> > > dollars to help people and the environment.
> That's not MY Forest Grove
> > and
> > > I resent my city being portrayed in this
> tasteless, conservative,
> > > unprogressive manner.
> > >
> > > The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway
> and Goodwill and see
> > all
> > > those homeless people standing around less than a
> block away from this
> > > monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from
> wondering, "How many of
> > > them could be fed for a very, very long time for
> what that monstrosity
> > > cost?"
> > >
> > > For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much
> time and energy you spend
> > > helping your fellow citizens. It's all about
> how much good you do for
> > your
> > > community. Not how big your flag is, how many
> wars you've illegally and
> > > immorally and imperialistically waged against the
> wrong enemy, and how
> > > many forests you've cut down in the name of
> capitalism. I thought we got
> > > past all that ridiculous flag waving and
> conservative leanings when
> > Dubya
> > > was finally booted out at long last and Obama was
> sworn in. I thought
> > > there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth
> whereby people would do
> > > their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the
> horrific damage done by
> > the
> > > Bush Administration, and to help each other.
> > >
> > > I wonder how much money this "anonymous
> family" who donated this crass
> > > monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much
> did they roll up their
> > > sleeves to help those less fortunate than
> themselves? I wonder.
> > >
> > > Holly Tsur
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > > Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything,
> but it strikes me as somewhat
> > > like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few
> years ago-- when local
> > > sign codes limited the size of their signs, they
> just flew humungous
> > > American flags to attract attention to
> themselves.
> > > It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> > > Walt
> > > On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bigger is better?  One better than the
> Jones'?  "Because we
> > > > can!"?  :-)
> > > >
> > > > Allen Warren
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > > > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big
> flag
> > > >
> > > > Is there a good explanation for why there is
> a humongous flag?
> > > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > >  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
> [mailto:grovenet-
> > > > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > > > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> > > >  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> > > >  To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > > >  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big
> flag
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from
> one end of town to
> > > > the other
> > > > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long
> until the City has no
> > > > money to buy
> > > > the replacement flag when this one is all
> tattered in about 12 to 14
> > > > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to
> come up with the
> > > > additional funds
> > > > needed??
> > > >
> > > >  bob
> > > >  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > >
> > > >  chuck wrote:
> > > > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town
> for work.
> > > >
> > > > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> > > >
> > > >
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > >
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


      

From phoenixacm at aol.com  Fri Apr 24 17:21:49 2009
From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:21:49 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <A537C8DD861B44838A67E1D3E5A2F49D@Maincomputer>
References: <A537C8DD861B44838A67E1D3E5A2F49D@Maincomputer>
Message-ID: <8CB9352F5B47A0A-EA4-2C79@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com>

Steve,

I believe that you have misunderstood me.  When I said the radical 
right had "co-opted" the flag, I was referring to the situation 
displayed by Holly's reaction - It's a flag, it must mean right-wing 
conservatives.  I was, in fact, expressing what I believe you are 
expressing - It's a flag, it's a symbol of our country, period.

I don't understand how recognition of the fact that some people feel 
that display of our country's flag indicates a particular (right wing) 
political viewpoint is an indication that I "foster and adversarial, 
intolerant position."  However, you are free to think whatever you like 
about me.  I don't recall that we have met, so I can't think of a 
reason why I should be concerned about your opinion of me (and it is, 
afterall, a free country).  Pointless name calling of this kind is why 
I don't spend much time on Grovenet.

I certainly agree that  "it is one of our unique strengths as a society 
  that even patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis."  As 
far as I can tell, I agree with most of what you have said (your 
opinion of me excluded).  So you would probably have better luck trying 
to pick a fight elsewhere.

Jane B-P

Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Jane,

I am truly curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that 
the
radical right has "co-opted" the flag.

It is obvious the flag stirs differing emotions in everyone. The flag 
is an
icon for our country, and our country's strengths and weaknesses are a
matter of individual interpretation. I don't feel threatened if others 
see
the flag as symbolic of a differing philosophy. The fact that you see a
difference of opinion as "co-opting" indicates to me that you foster 
and
adversarial, intolerant position.

I feel that it is one of our unique strengths as a society  that even
patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis. Universal fear and
paranoia are natural human tendencies that usurp our ability to achieve 
a
functionally diverse and tolerant society.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never
> realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said,
> "...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to
> each new generation.
>
> I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's 
flag?
>  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag
> when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as
> a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend
> the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may
> not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still
> spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor
> last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in 
the
> Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack
> hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit
> to the Arizona was overwhelming.
>
> My Dad and I took very different paths in
> life, but he was always
> supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that 
thoughtful
> understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and
> the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen
> understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he
> never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's
> way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He
> taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.
>
> Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.
> Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke
> to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but 
what
> it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and
> dreams remain to be fulfilled.
>
> Peace,
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] 
On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously 
grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because 
of
> this monstrous dis
> play of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans
> who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against
> spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY
> Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless,
> conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
> all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from
> this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How
> many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you
> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you 
do
> for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've
> illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism.
> I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative
> leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was
> sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth
> whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the
> horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
> other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up
> their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local in
> terests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 17:28:37 2009
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
Message-ID: <444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to fly this huge flag.

The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?  Not very democratic.....

Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....

Alana



--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com> wrote:

> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
> Holly,
> 
> 
> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice,
> anti-gay, anti women
> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of
> everything you see as
> negative about our country ?
> 
> Why don't you see it as representative of
> everyone-gays, straights,
> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a
> feeling of pride in
> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion,
> sexual orientation,
> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you
> feel that it
> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you
> feel the least bit
> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your
> assumptions about
> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your
> rhetorically postured approach?
> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those
> that differ in
> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
> 
> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list"
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> 
> 
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is
> hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> 
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from
> Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to
> buy."
> 
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
> resident because of this
> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that
> anyone who drives through
> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> flag, will think that
> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> pro-war,
> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> dollars to help
> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
> and I resent my city
> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> unprogressive manner.
> 
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and
> Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block
> away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering,
> "How many of them
> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> monstrosity cost?"
> 
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and
> energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much
> good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars
> you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> enemy, and how many
> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I
> thought we got past all
> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
> Dubya was finally
> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> there was a
> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> their best to
> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> Bush
> Administration, and to help each other.
> 
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family"
> who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
> roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I
> wonder.
> 
> Holly Tsur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> 
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it
> strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago--
> when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew
> humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> 
> > Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'?
> "Because we
> > can!"? :-)
> >
> > Allen Warren
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> > Is there a good explanation for why there is a
> humongous flag?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >
> >
> > No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of
> town to
> > the other
> > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
> City has no
> > money to buy
> > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in
> about 12 to 14
> > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with
> the
> > additional funds
> > needed??
> >
> > bob
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > chuck wrote:
> > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> >
> > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> >
> >
> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


      

From stevedj at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 18:12:30 2009
From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:12:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <A537C8DD861B44838A67E1D3E5A2F49D@Maincomputer>
	<8CB9352F5B47A0A-EA4-2C79@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C65DF59D58134B33A40DF8D2E2E0304C@Maincomputer>

Jane,

Yes, I interpreted your statement "I also have to ask, how did the radical 
right co-opt my country's
flag?" as meaning that you had believed that had happened. I apologize. My 
observations were based on the above mentioned misinterpretation.

And, just for clarification, I have been careful not to join in the name 
calling already established in this thread, and I did not use any name 
calling in my post to you.

Steve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> Steve,
>
> I believe that you have misunderstood me.  When I said the radical
> right had "co-opted" the flag, I was referring to the situation
> displayed by Holly's reaction - It's a flag, it must mean right-wing
> conservatives.  I was, in fact, expressing what I believe you are
> expressing - It's a flag, it's a symbol of our country, period.
>
> I don't understand how recognition of the fact that some people feel
> that display of our country's flag indicates a particular (right wing)
> political viewpoint is an indication that I "foster and adversarial,
> intolerant position."  However, you are free to think whatever you like
> about me.  I don't recall that we have met, so I can't think of a
> reason why I should be concerned about your opinion of me (and it is,
> afterall, a free country).  Pointless name calling of this kind is why
> I don't spend much time on Grovenet.
>
> I certainly agree that  "it is one of our unique strengths as a society
>  that even patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis."  As
> far as I can tell, I agree with most of what you have said (your
> opinion of me excluded).  So you would probably have better luck trying
> to pick a fight elsewhere.
>
> Jane B-P
>
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 1:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Jane,
>
> I am truly curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that
> the
> radical right has "co-opted" the flag.
>
> It is obvious the flag stirs differing emotions in everyone. The flag
> is an
> icon for our country, and our country's strengths and weaknesses are a
> matter of individual interpretation. I don't feel threatened if others
> see
> the flag as symbolic of a differing philosophy. The fact that you see a
> difference of opinion as "co-opting" indicates to me that you foster
> and
> adversarial, intolerant position.
>
> I feel that it is one of our unique strengths as a society  that even
> patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis. Universal fear and
> paranoia are natural human tendencies that usurp our ability to achieve
> a
> functionally diverse and tolerant society.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
> To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
>> Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never
>> realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said,
>> "...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to
>> each new generation.
>>
>> I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's
> flag?
>>  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag
>> when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as
>> a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend
>> the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may
>> not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.
>>
>> Jane B-P
>>
>>
>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still
>> spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor
>> last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in
> the
>> Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack
>> hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit
>> to the Arizona was overwhelming.
>>
>> My Dad and I took very different paths in
>> life, but he was always
>> supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that
> thoughtful
>> understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and
>> the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen
>> understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he
>> never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's
>> way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He
>> taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.
>>
>> Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.
>> Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke
>> to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but
> what
>> it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and
>> dreams remain to be fulfilled.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]
> On
>> Behalf Of Holly T.
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously
> grotesque
>> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>>
>> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
>> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>>
>> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because
> of
>> this monstrous dis
>> play of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
>> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
>> flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans
>> who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against
>> spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY
>> Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless,
>> conservative, unprogressive manner.
>>
>> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
>> all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from
>> this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How
>> many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
>> monstrosity cost?"
>>
>> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you
>> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you
> do
>> for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've
>> illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
>> enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism.
>> I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative
>> leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was
>> sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth
>> whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the
>> horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
>> other.
>>
>> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
>> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up
>> their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>>
>> Holly Tsur
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
>> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
>> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
>> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
>> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
>> Walt
>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>>> can!"? :-)
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>
>>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>> To: Forest Grove local in
>> terests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>
>>>
>>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>>> the other
>>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>>> money to buy
>>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>>> additional funds
>>> needed??
>>>
>>> bob
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>> chuck wrote:
>>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>>
>>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>>
>>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From stevedj at teleport.com  Fri Apr 24 18:38:38 2009
From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:38:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
References: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNMEEJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net><113163.7427.qm@web35208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><33B9C200-C12F-4EB6-833B-6CB9C1ADDBD2@teleport.com><555069.62911.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com><235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer><737233.77423.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><F31D45DC282541EFB353A487D55C8067@Maincomputer>
	<815529.47275.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AF3D8A890904A13B818127C8B36187F@Maincomputer>

Holly,

You stated:

"And I believe it stands to tip the balance toward discouraging those who 
are politically progressive from wanting to live here. And it stands to tip 
the balance toward encouraging those who are
 more politically conservative to move here."

Yep, we cant' have them conservatives overrunnin' our town. They'll be goin' 
to school with our kids, they'll be wantin' to breed our daughters, they'll 
devalue our real estate. There goes the neighborhood!


Seriously,it may surprise you, but I am not arguing in favor of the large 
flag. I also question the reasoning behind the size, but it doesn't rankle 
or embarrass
me.

My concern is your seemingly elitist attitude toward conservatives. Elitism 
is counterproductive to a truly tolerant society. You may be your
own worst enemy.


Steve


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag


> I'm not embarrassed because there are others in my community who feel
> differently than me at all, Steve. I'm embarrassed by this grotesque
> symbol that is being imposed upon my community. A symbol that, over the
> past eight years, has come to represent conservatism, militarism, and
> intolerance by an eight-year administration that has represented the worst
> thing that has happened to this country in terms of international
> policies, environmental policies, and economic policies, among others. An
> administration that frequently used flag-waving patriotism as a smoke
> screen to dumb down the populace so as to keep people from protesting
> about bigger issues.
>
> Seems to me that if you're truly all about diversity and tolerance, you'd
> be in favor of rotating flags so that nationalities from all foreign
> nationales who live in this city might be recognized. I wonder how you'd
> feel about that. I, for one, would feel much better about that scenario
> than the one that's been shoved down our throats. But, either way, I'd
> like to see much smaller flags. Flags that don't shout at you when you
> arrive.
>
> No doubt there are some people who live in San Francisco who object to gay
> pride marches. But, I think we're talking about something very different
> here. San Francisco's gay pride march is in protest to human rights
> violations that are continually being perpetrated against a minority that
> deserves equal treatment. They're protest marches that will someday,
> hopefully, help to promote equality for this historically persecuted
> minority. The raising of this giant flag is a completely different story.
> It's about how one family has been allowed to impose their giant symbol of
> what they consider to be "patriotic" on an entire community without the
> consent of the people. I believe it sends a message of conservatism and
> intolerance to anyone who comes to our fair city. And I believe it stands
> to tip the balance toward discouraging those who are politically
> progressive from wanting to live here. And it stands to tip the balance
> toward encouraging those who are
> more politically conservative to move here.
>
> And current failed economic, environmental, and international policies
> have proven what a disaster the last eight years of a conservative regime
> has been for this country. Most experts predict that it will take far more
> than eight years to clean up the mess that has been left behind by our
> past administration. I just wouldn't wish to see our community devolve
> back in that direction again.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>> chuck wrote:
>>> 


From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 19:17:41 2009
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:17:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] beautiful big flag
In-Reply-To: <2f1a98fe0904241625l53b4f7act69b685dfa8075db1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f1a98fe0904241625l53b4f7act69b685dfa8075db1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCE7A0AD-DE82-4AF7-8AD9-7308E3D0A403@verizon.net>


On Apr 24, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Zip Digity wrote:

> The flag is beautiful! People should just be happy about it instead  
> of questioning and bitching about everything!!!!!!!!!!  I don't  
> even want to sit here and read all the negativity; I would rather  
> spend my time being happy. ...

It is all in the interpretation, isn't it?

To me:

The flag symbolizes the American's who have sacrificed for this  
country.  I salute them proudly.  They have given us the opportunity  
to do great things.

It doesn't represent the government; it represents the ideals the  
government was founded upon.

It doesn't represent the administration; it represents the ideals  
that lead to our better actions.

It doesn't represent our numerous blunders; it represents our efforts  
to learn from our mistakes, our resilience in adversity,  and our  
determination to improve upon our past.


 From the conversation, I expect that the flag may be out of  
proportion to the surrounding structures.  If someone wishes to put  
it into perspective, arrange to put examples of our "better selves"  
in the land that lies beneath it's canopy, just as we have  
opportunity to find our better selves thanks to the shield over our  
land provided by the sacrifices that the flag represents.

There is reason for pride in the results of the last election, so I  
wouldn't mind seeing support for our President represented there.  I  
wouldn't mind seeing something to honor the Oregon National Guard  
there, as they continue to support our nation.  I wouldn't mind  
seeing something to honor those who have volunteered community  
service and those who have worked for the children of our community.   
I wouldn't mind seeing some respect for our seniors, those who have  
given us the country we were born into.

Feel free to expand on this...

David


From JJSAW at aol.com  Fri Apr 24 20:31:51 2009
From: JJSAW at aol.com (JJSAW at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:31:51 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
Message-ID: <cfe.52776caa.3723de27@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/24/2009 1:11:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes:

I don't  believe it's me who is intolerant here, Steve. Intolerance is what 
I fear will  happen if this monstrous symbol has the effect of attracting 
more  conservatives to our community. I know that as a progressive Democrat, 
if I  were exploring the possibility of moving to Forest Grove, I would 
think twice  about my decision to move here if I saw this flag as I drove into 
town. This  grotesque symbol could tip the balance and take our community in 
a dangerous  and backward political direction that I wouldn't like to  see.

Holly


I think your posts are probably some of the most intolerant and narrow  
minded posts I have ever witnessed here. Your inability to see anything at all  
besides your own particular point of view makes you one of the "dangerous  
minions" you were ranting about. As far as the idiotic suggestion that we 
fly  other national flags in a rotation, I hope your not serious. 
 You write ad-nauseum about your resentments, what about those of us  that 
were here long before you and your ilk infested our community? I find your  
entire attitude grotesque, dangerous, and backwards. Sadly for you, you 
don't  see the difference between what the flag represents and purely temporary  
occupants of the White House. 
 Your obsession with what gay people will think of the flag flying  where 
it is, and the size, isn't altogether accurate in my own conversations  with 
local citizens. 
**************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221421330x1201417418/aol?redi
r=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Ap
rilAvgfooter424NO62)

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 24 21:05:18 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <210520.83058.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think we (Grovenet subscribers) are having the discussion we wish we could've had with our?mayor and other elected officials.? Even though I believe the outcome would've been the same, our elected officials need to think of how they would feel if the situation were reversed, i.e. if a decision was made without any public discussion.? Hmmm . . . maybe we should remember this come next election cycle . .?. 

Alana, I?respectfully disagree with your statement that Forest Grove is?"insecure in its patriotism".??I think we're all fervently passionate about our patriotism, as evidenced?by the lively debate here on Grovenet.? And as Katie Allnut so eloquently stated in an earlier post,?because we have no idea who the family is that donated the entire setup, we?unfortunately don't know why the family wanted?to donate this size pole & flag.

One question: assuming the donation family hears or reads?our Grovenet posts about?the Flag,?how?might they now feel about all of us, their fellow Forest Grove citizens?
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Alana Graham <isis23ra at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:28:37 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag


The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to fly this huge flag.

The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?? Not very democratic.....

Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....

Alana


      

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 21:38:56 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:38:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <17801.81906.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNOEFEMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

You are very astute. Your post is what informed me. However I didn't accuse
you of anything. You have made your opinion of others quite clear.
I would suggest you continue to grow and learn.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:53 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> Yes. I believe you're clear except it sounds as though you are accusing me
> of being a redneck Democrat who is pro-terrorist, anti-life,
> anti-straight, anti-men, and supportive off wasting tax dollars while
> saying it is to help people and the environment? If that's the case, then
> I'd say that your accusations are not only misinformed, they're ludicrous.
> >


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 24 21:41:19 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:41:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <210520.83058.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNGEFFMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

Interesting. Similar reasons brought on the Tea Parties on April 15.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Allen Warren
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:05 PM
> To: isis23ra at yahoo.com; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
>
>
> I think we (Grovenet subscribers) are having the discussion we wish we
> could've had with our?mayor and other elected officials.? Even though I
> believe the outcome would've been the same, our elected officials need to
> think of how they would feel if the situation were reversed, i.e. if a
> decision was made without any public discussion.? Hmmm . . .
> maybe we should
> remember this come next election cycle . .?.
> >


From obrzl at verizon.net  Sat Apr 25 09:35:44 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:35:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] mower 4 less
Message-ID: <247464.18176.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

older J-Deere --?model 68 (I think) Riding Mower
?
runs with pull start, new J-D blade drive belt, 30" deck, side discharge, four or five speeds plus reverse--? I used it last night and it works fine.
?
And it's FREE
?
contact me? obrzl at verizon.net? or drive by 12th and Birch

From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 25 12:32:27 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:32:27 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
In-Reply-To: <444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>


I also believe that we, as citizens of Forest Grove, should have had the right to decide on this.  I am a veteran of the war in Grenada ( although most of you have no idea what that was, sad because I lost several of my friends that horrible day ) and I do like the flag on this site, I remember seeing it on the beach and remember how glad I was to see it while we were pinned down with enemy fire,  but I do have some negative thoughts about how big it is and this SHOULD have NOT have been a administrative decision.  I am not saying that it would have turned out any different and I myself would most likely have said yes to it but I would have said yes to it as a different size I think.
Glenn


> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:28:37 -0700
> From: isis23ra at yahoo.com
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
> 
> 
> The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to fly this huge flag.
> 
> The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?  Not very democratic.....
> 
> Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....
> 
> Alana
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
> > Holly,
> > 
> > 
> > When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice,
> > anti-gay, anti women
> > etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of
> > everything you see as
> > negative about our country ?
> > 
> > Why don't you see it as representative of
> > everyone-gays, straights,
> > homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a
> > feeling of pride in
> > the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion,
> > sexual orientation,
> > etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you
> > feel that it
> > doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you
> > feel the least bit
> > apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your
> > assumptions about
> > the "anonymous family" regardless of  your
> > rhetorically postured approach?
> > Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those
> > that differ in
> > opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
> > 
> > I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
> > 
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list"
> > <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > 
> > 
> > I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is
> > hideously grotesque
> > IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> > 
> > As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from
> > Hot Climates,
> > "The more advertising I see, the less I want to
> > buy."
> > 
> > I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
> > resident because of this
> > monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that
> > anyone who drives through
> > Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> > flag, will think that
> > our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> > pro-war,
> > anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> > dollars to help
> > people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
> > and I resent my city
> > being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> > unprogressive manner.
> > 
> > The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and
> > Goodwill and see all
> > those homeless people standing around less than a block
> > away from this
> > monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering,
> > "How many of them
> > could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> > monstrosity cost?"
> > 
> > For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and
> > energy you spend
> > helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much
> > good you do for your
> > community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars
> > you've illegally and
> > immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> > enemy, and how many
> > forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I
> > thought we got past all
> > that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
> > Dubya was finally
> > booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> > there was a
> > rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> > their best to
> > rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> > Bush
> > Administration, and to help each other.
> > 
> > I wonder how much money this "anonymous family"
> > who donated this crass
> > monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
> > roll up their
> > sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I
> > wonder.
> > 
> > Holly Tsur
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > 
> > Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it
> > strikes me as somewhat
> > like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago--
> > when local
> > sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew
> > humungous
> > American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> > It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> > Walt
> > On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> > 
> > > Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'?
> > "Because we
> > > can!"? :-)
> > >
> > > Allen Warren
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > > Is there a good explanation for why there is a
> > humongous flag?
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> > > bounces at rdrop.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Bob Browning
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> > > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> > >
> > >
> > > No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of
> > town to
> > > the other
> > > is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
> > City has no
> > > money to buy
> > > the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in
> > about 12 to 14
> > > months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with
> > the
> > > additional funds
> > > needed??
> > >
> > > bob
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > > chuck wrote:
> > > Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> > >
> > > That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> > >
> > >
> > Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Apr 25 12:47:56 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:47:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>

Believe it or not, the war in Grenada was a brief topic here in on  
grovenet (probably too brief).
Though at the time it was mentioned, the Iraq war was starting and  
there was disagreement that the Iraq war would be as 'small' as the  
war in Grenada.
Some of us thought there was no such thing as a small war, and if  
there was a small war it still wouldn't be a good one either.
 From what I hear on the flag topic, nobody is really objecting to a  
flag, the only objection is the size of this one and whether its size  
implies meanings beyond what a regular sized flag would.

Katie


On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:

>
> I also believe that we, as citizens of Forest Grove, should have  
> had the right to decide on this.  I am a veteran of the war in  
> Grenada ( although most of you have no idea what that was, sad  
> because I lost several of my friends that horrible day ) and I do  
> like the flag on this site, I remember seeing it on the beach and  
> remember how glad I was to see it while we were pinned down with  
> enemy fire,  but I do have some negative thoughts about how big it  
> is and this SHOULD have NOT have been a administrative decision.  I  
> am not saying that it would have turned out any different and I  
> myself would most likely have said yes to it but I would have said  
> yes to it as a different size I think.
> Glenn
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:28:37 -0700
>> From: isis23ra at yahoo.com
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest  
>> Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to  
>> fly this huge flag.
>>
>> The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?  Not very  
>> democratic.....
>>
>> Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is  
>> insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....
>>
>> Alana
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
>>> Holly,
>>>
>>>
>>> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice,
>>> anti-gay, anti women
>>> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of
>>> everything you see as
>>> negative about our country ?
>>>
>>> Why don't you see it as representative of
>>> everyone-gays, straights,
>>> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a
>>> feeling of pride in
>>> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion,
>>> sexual orientation,
>>> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you
>>> feel that it
>>> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you
>>> feel the least bit
>>> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your
>>> assumptions about
>>> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your
>>> rhetorically postured approach?
>>> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those
>>> that differ in
>>> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
>>>
>>> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list"
>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is
>>> hideously grotesque
>>> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>>>
>>> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from
>>> Hot Climates,
>>> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to
>>> buy."
>>>
>>> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
>>> resident because of this
>>> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that
>>> anyone who drives through
>>> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
>>> flag, will think that
>>> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
>>> pro-war,
>>> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
>>> dollars to help
>>> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
>>> and I resent my city
>>> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
>>> unprogressive manner.
>>>
>>> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and
>>> Goodwill and see all
>>> those homeless people standing around less than a block
>>> away from this
>>> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering,
>>> "How many of them
>>> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
>>> monstrosity cost?"
>>>
>>> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and
>>> energy you spend
>>> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much
>>> good you do for your
>>> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars
>>> you've illegally and
>>> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
>>> enemy, and how many
>>> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I
>>> thought we got past all
>>> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
>>> Dubya was finally
>>> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
>>> there was a
>>> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
>>> their best to
>>> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
>>> Bush
>>> Administration, and to help each other.
>>>
>>> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family"
>>> who donated this crass
>>> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
>>> roll up their
>>> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I
>>> wonder.
>>>
>>> Holly Tsur
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>
>>> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it
>>> strikes me as somewhat
>>> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago--
>>> when local
>>> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew
>>> humungous
>>> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
>>> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
>>> Walt
>>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'?
>>> "Because we
>>>> can!"? :-)
>>>>
>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>
>>>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a
>>> humongous flag?
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>>>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of
>>> town to
>>>> the other
>>>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
>>> City has no
>>>> money to buy
>>>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in
>>> about 12 to 14
>>>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with
>>> the
>>>> additional funds
>>>> needed??
>>>>
>>>> bob
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
>>>> chuck wrote:
>>>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>>>
>>>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail? 
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From obrzl at verizon.net  Sat Apr 25 12:52:32 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:52:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] mower
Message-ID: <880366.44832.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>







The mower has mowed on, hopefully?to greener pastures.
? 
But?where, exactly, is the Community Garden?? We looked? but didn't find.
?
Mark

From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:46:27 2009
From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:27 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl> 
	<3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>


Wow..I did not realize that many people remembered the war.  I sure do, that is because one day I was rousted out of my bed and told to get to the base ASAP out of the blue.
I was part of a Medical Field Surgical Support unit of my Naval Hospital and before the next day was out I had 19 dead and 191 wounded men on my hands and I was standing on a beach watching this and not believing I was there.  The only thing good about it was it was very short.  My son came to me earlier this year as he was approaching graduation at Pacific because he had changed his mind.  His entire Pacific schooling had been in preperation for the Optometry school.  My dad and grandfather were Optometrists and I had been a licensed Optician as well as a surgical tech in Ophthalmology but he had decided he wanted to take it one step more and be a M.D. so I had said sure, to my amazement he came to me with a listing about a med school he wanted to go to and low and behold there it was, the Medical School on Grenada, the same one that Ronald Regan had used as our excuse to invade the island.  Our goal was supposed to be to rescue the students at this very med school.



> From: allnutt at verizon.net
> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:47:56 -0700
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
> 
> Believe it or not, the war in Grenada was a brief topic here in on  
> grovenet (probably too brief).
> Though at the time it was mentioned, the Iraq war was starting and  
> there was disagreement that the Iraq war would be as 'small' as the  
> war in Grenada.
> Some of us thought there was no such thing as a small war, and if  
> there was a small war it still wouldn't be a good one either.
>  From what I hear on the flag topic, nobody is really objecting to a  
> flag, the only objection is the size of this one and whether its size  
> implies meanings beyond what a regular sized flag would.
> 
> Katie
> 
> 
> On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
> 
> >
> > I also believe that we, as citizens of Forest Grove, should have  
> > had the right to decide on this.  I am a veteran of the war in  
> > Grenada ( although most of you have no idea what that was, sad  
> > because I lost several of my friends that horrible day ) and I do  
> > like the flag on this site, I remember seeing it on the beach and  
> > remember how glad I was to see it while we were pinned down with  
> > enemy fire,  but I do have some negative thoughts about how big it  
> > is and this SHOULD have NOT have been a administrative decision.  I  
> > am not saying that it would have turned out any different and I  
> > myself would most likely have said yes to it but I would have said  
> > yes to it as a different size I think.
> > Glenn
> >
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:28:37 -0700
> >> From: isis23ra at yahoo.com
> >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> >> Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
> >>
> >>
> >> The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest  
> >> Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to  
> >> fly this huge flag.
> >>
> >> The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?  Not very  
> >> democratic.....
> >>
> >> Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is  
> >> insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....
> >>
> >> Alana
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> >>> Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
> >>> Holly,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice,
> >>> anti-gay, anti women
> >>> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of
> >>> everything you see as
> >>> negative about our country ?
> >>>
> >>> Why don't you see it as representative of
> >>> everyone-gays, straights,
> >>> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a
> >>> feeling of pride in
> >>> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion,
> >>> sexual orientation,
> >>> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you
> >>> feel that it
> >>> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you
> >>> feel the least bit
> >>> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your
> >>> assumptions about
> >>> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your
> >>> rhetorically postured approach?
> >>> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those
> >>> that differ in
> >>> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
> >>>
> >>> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list"
> >>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is
> >>> hideously grotesque
> >>> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
> >>>
> >>> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from
> >>> Hot Climates,
> >>> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to
> >>> buy."
> >>>
> >>> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
> >>> resident because of this
> >>> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that
> >>> anyone who drives through
> >>> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> >>> flag, will think that
> >>> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
> >>> pro-war,
> >>> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
> >>> dollars to help
> >>> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
> >>> and I resent my city
> >>> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
> >>> unprogressive manner.
> >>>
> >>> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and
> >>> Goodwill and see all
> >>> those homeless people standing around less than a block
> >>> away from this
> >>> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering,
> >>> "How many of them
> >>> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> >>> monstrosity cost?"
> >>>
> >>> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and
> >>> energy you spend
> >>> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much
> >>> good you do for your
> >>> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars
> >>> you've illegally and
> >>> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> >>> enemy, and how many
> >>> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I
> >>> thought we got past all
> >>> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
> >>> Dubya was finally
> >>> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
> >>> there was a
> >>> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
> >>> their best to
> >>> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
> >>> Bush
> >>> Administration, and to help each other.
> >>>
> >>> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family"
> >>> who donated this crass
> >>> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
> >>> roll up their
> >>> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I
> >>> wonder.
> >>>
> >>> Holly Tsur
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >>>
> >>> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it
> >>> strikes me as somewhat
> >>> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago--
> >>> when local
> >>> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew
> >>> humungous
> >>> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> >>> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> >>> Walt
> >>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'?
> >>> "Because we
> >>>> can!"? :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Allen Warren
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a
> >>> humongous flag?
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> >>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
> >>>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
> >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of
> >>> town to
> >>>> the other
> >>>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
> >>> City has no
> >>>> money to buy
> >>>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in
> >>> about 12 to 14
> >>>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with
> >>> the
> >>>> additional funds
> >>>> needed??
> >>>>
> >>>> bob
> >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>>>
> >>>> chuck wrote:
> >>>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
> > http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail? 
> > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009

From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Apr 25 17:58:14 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:58:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
	<3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
	<SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <75936404-88C5-4281-B21B-BE9D473FD549@teleport.com>

Yep, I remember that "glorious" little war. Something akin to the  
invasion of Panama, ostensibly to capture old "Pineapple Face"  
Noriega for being involved in the dope trade. If that is a true  
reason for an invasion, we'd have to go after half the dictators in  
Latin America.
Grenada, as I recall, was invaded for fears of a "comyanist  
invasion" (a Cuban Army construction corps or some such was in the  
country). Sadly, another example of young American lives thrown away  
for a specious rationale.

Walt
On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:

>
> Wow..I did not realize that many people remembered the war.  I sure  
> do, that is because one day I was rousted out of my bed and told to  
> get to the base ASAP out of the blue.
> I was part of a Medical Field Surgical Support unit of my Naval  
> Hospital and before the next day was out I had 19 dead and 191  
> wounded men on my hands and I was standing on a beach watching this  
> and not believing I was there.  The only thing good about it was it  
> was very short.  My son came to me earlier this year as he was  
> approaching graduation at Pacific because he had changed his mind.   
> His entire Pacific schooling had been in preperation for the  
> Optometry school.  My dad and grandfather were Optometrists and I  
> had been a licensed Optician as well as a surgical tech in  
> Ophthalmology but he had decided he wanted to take it one step more  
> and be a M.D. so I had said sure, to my amazement he came to me  
> with a listing about a med school he wanted to go to and low and  
> behold there it was, the Medical School on Grenada, the same one  
> that Ronald Regan had used as our excuse to invade the island.  Our  
> goal was supposed to be to rescue the students at this very med  
> school.
>
>
>
>> From: allnutt at verizon.net
>> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:47:56 -0700
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
>>
>> Believe it or not, the war in Grenada was a brief topic here in on
>> grovenet (probably too brief).
>> Though at the time it was mentioned, the Iraq war was starting and
>> there was disagreement that the Iraq war would be as 'small' as the
>> war in Grenada.
>> Some of us thought there was no such thing as a small war, and if
>> there was a small war it still wouldn't be a good one either.
>>  From what I hear on the flag topic, nobody is really objecting to a
>> flag, the only objection is the size of this one and whether its size
>> implies meanings beyond what a regular sized flag would.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I also believe that we, as citizens of Forest Grove, should have
>>> had the right to decide on this.  I am a veteran of the war in
>>> Grenada ( although most of you have no idea what that was, sad
>>> because I lost several of my friends that horrible day ) and I do
>>> like the flag on this site, I remember seeing it on the beach and
>>> remember how glad I was to see it while we were pinned down with
>>> enemy fire,  but I do have some negative thoughts about how big it
>>> is and this SHOULD have NOT have been a administrative decision.  I
>>> am not saying that it would have turned out any different and I
>>> myself would most likely have said yes to it but I would have said
>>> yes to it as a different size I think.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:28:37 -0700
>>>> From: isis23ra at yahoo.com
>>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Who got to choose: That's one big flag
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The most disturbing thing to me is that the citizens of Forest
>>>> Grove were not allowed to be part of the process for deciding to
>>>> fly this huge flag.
>>>>
>>>> The mayor had talks with the donor and that was it?  Not very
>>>> democratic.....
>>>>
>>>> Some people like to wear "big hair" - I guess Forest Grove is
>>>> insecure in it's patriotism and has to wear a big flag.....
>>>>
>>>> Alana
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
>>>>> Holly,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice,
>>>>> anti-gay, anti women
>>>>> etc. symbol?  Why do you see this flag as an icon of
>>>>> everything you see as
>>>>> negative about our country ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you see it as representative of
>>>>> everyone-gays, straights,
>>>>> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a
>>>>> feeling of pride in
>>>>> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion,
>>>>> sexual orientation,
>>>>> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you
>>>>> feel that it
>>>>> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you
>>>>> feel the least bit
>>>>> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your
>>>>> assumptions about
>>>>> the "anonymous family" regardless of  your
>>>>> rhetorically postured approach?
>>>>> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those
>>>>> that differ in
>>>>> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I find your level of intolerance  disturbingly ironic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list"
>>>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is
>>>>> hideously grotesque
>>>>> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from
>>>>> Hot Climates,
>>>>> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to
>>>>> buy."
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove
>>>>> resident because of this
>>>>> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that
>>>>> anyone who drives through
>>>>> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
>>>>> flag, will think that
>>>>> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are
>>>>> pro-war,
>>>>> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax
>>>>> dollars to help
>>>>> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove
>>>>> and I resent my city
>>>>> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative,
>>>>> unprogressive manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and
>>>>> Goodwill and see all
>>>>> those homeless people standing around less than a block
>>>>> away from this
>>>>> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering,
>>>>> "How many of them
>>>>> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
>>>>> monstrosity cost?"
>>>>>
>>>>> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and
>>>>> energy you spend
>>>>> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much
>>>>> good you do for your
>>>>> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars
>>>>> you've illegally and
>>>>> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
>>>>> enemy, and how many
>>>>> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I
>>>>> thought we got past all
>>>>> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when
>>>>> Dubya was finally
>>>>> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought
>>>>> there was a
>>>>> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do
>>>>> their best to
>>>>> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the
>>>>> Bush
>>>>> Administration, and to help each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family"
>>>>> who donated this crass
>>>>> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they
>>>>> roll up their
>>>>> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I
>>>>> wonder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Holly Tsur
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it
>>>>> strikes me as somewhat
>>>>> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago--
>>>>> when local
>>>>> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew
>>>>> humungous
>>>>> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
>>>>> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
>>>>> Walt
>>>>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'?
>>>>> "Because we
>>>>>> can!"? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a
>>>>> humongous flag?
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of
>>>>> town to
>>>>>> the other
>>>>>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the
>>>>> City has no
>>>>>> money to buy
>>>>>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in
>>>>> about 12 to 14
>>>>>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with
>>>>> the
>>>>>> additional funds
>>>>>> needed??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>
>>>>>> chuck wrote:
>>>>>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?
>>> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail.
> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
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> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Apr 25 22:16:44 2009
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:16:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
	<3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
	<SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5203889F-6334-4F29-B66A-5EDD1025D51D@verizon.net>

It appears to have been more fierce than I recalled.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_159.shtml

David

On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:

>
> Wow..I did not realize that many people remembered the war.  I sure  
> do, that is because one day I was rousted out of my bed and told to  
> get to the base ASAP out of the blue.
> I was part of a Medical Field Surgical Support unit of my Naval  
> Hospital and before the next day was out I had 19 dead and 191  
> wounded men on my hands and I was standing on a beach watching this  
> and not believing I was there.  The only thing good about it was it  
> was very short.  My son came to me earlier this year as he was  
> approaching graduation at Pacific because he had changed his mind.   
> His entire Pacific schooling had been in preperation for the  
> Optometry school.  My dad and grandfather were Optometrists and I  
> had been a licensed Optician as well as a surgical tech in  
> Ophthalmology but he had decided he wanted to take it one step more  
> and be a M.D. so I had said sure, to my amazement he came to me  
> with a listing about a med school he wanted to go to and low and  
> behold there it was, the Medical School on Grenada, the same one  
> that Ronald Regan had used as our excuse to invade the island.  Our  
> goal was supposed to be to rescue the students at this very med  
> school.
>

From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Apr 26 06:49:25 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 06:49:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <5203889F-6334-4F29-B66A-5EDD1025D51D@verizon.net>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
	<3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
	<SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
	<5203889F-6334-4F29-B66A-5EDD1025D51D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <21FC7AB5-8A28-452D-8A4C-8C215E7107B7@teleport.com>

Naturally, the government tried to depict it as a "low-cost" little  
war, all glory and no gore. I believeby then they were trying to  
rigidly control Press access to military action.
Walt
On Apr 25, 2009, at 10:16 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> It appears to have been more fierce than I recalled.
>
> http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_159.shtml
>
> David
>
> On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
>
>>
>> Wow..I did not realize that many people remembered the war.  I sure
>> do, that is because one day I was rousted out of my bed and told to
>> get to the base ASAP out of the blue.
>> I was part of a Medical Field Surgical Support unit of my Naval
>> Hospital and before the next day was out I had 19 dead and 191
>> wounded men on my hands and I was standing on a beach watching this
>> and not believing I was there.  The only thing good about it was it
>> was very short.  My son came to me earlier this year as he was
>> approaching graduation at Pacific because he had changed his mind.
>> His entire Pacific schooling had been in preperation for the
>> Optometry school.  My dad and grandfather were Optometrists and I
>> had been a licensed Optician as well as a surgical tech in
>> Ophthalmology but he had decided he wanted to take it one step more
>> and be a M.D. so I had said sure, to my amazement he came to me
>> with a listing about a med school he wanted to go to and low and
>> behold there it was, the Medical School on Grenada, the same one
>> that Ronald Regan had used as our excuse to invade the island.  Our
>> goal was supposed to be to rescue the students at this very med
>> school.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Apr 26 08:26:31 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:26:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <5203889F-6334-4F29-B66A-5EDD1025D51D@verizon.net>
References: <235FC479189C4347AACCC10C045E019F@Maincomputer>
	<444428.77284.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<SNT116-W453F361B6BDA7B86D0BA7FA9730@phx.gbl>
	<3F8651D3-6502-41F3-9AC9-63F0040980EB@verizon.net>
	<SNT116-W452EB2973A9606D00B0B9A9730@phx.gbl>
	<5203889F-6334-4F29-B66A-5EDD1025D51D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AE1B1B72-3490-485A-BD60-C05FF03B83A9@verizon.net>

Keep in mind David that military contractors, who are heavily  
connected to our corporate media, have a vested financial interest in  
keeping wars 'acceptable' to the American public.
If we knew the true cost of wars we would be less likely to approve  
of them.
The American public was told that this was a simple and even 'easy'  
war.  Who could object if it was so benign?
You probably don't recall because we were not told.

When it comes to war reporting, you can believe what you are told but  
you have to be wary  because you are not told what you need to know.   
Our government/corporate media does not out right lie to us, but they  
leave out the most vital information that would make us truly informed.

Katie


On Apr 25, 2009, at 10:16 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> It appears to have been more fierce than I recalled.
>
> http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_159.shtml
>
> David
>
> On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote:
>
>>
>> Wow..I did not realize that many people remembered the war.  I sure
>> do, that is because one day I was rousted out of my bed and told to
>> get to the base ASAP out of the blue.
>> I was part of a Medical Field Surgical Support unit of my Naval
>> Hospital and before the next day was out I had 19 dead and 191
>> wounded men on my hands and I was standing on a beach watching this
>> and not believing I was there.  The only thing good about it was it
>> was very short.  My son came to me earlier this year as he was
>> approaching graduation at Pacific because he had changed his mind.
>> His entire Pacific schooling had been in preperation for the
>> Optometry school.  My dad and grandfather were Optometrists and I
>> had been a licensed Optician as well as a surgical tech in
>> Ophthalmology but he had decided he wanted to take it one step more
>> and be a M.D. so I had said sure, to my amazement he came to me
>> with a listing about a med school he wanted to go to and low and
>> behold there it was, the Medical School on Grenada, the same one
>> that Ronald Regan had used as our excuse to invade the island.  Our
>> goal was supposed to be to rescue the students at this very med
>> school.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Sun Apr 26 09:38:56 2009
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:38:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Grenada/ was that's one big flag.
In-Reply-To: <AE1B1B72-3490-485A-BD60-C05FF03B83A9@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <FBEAKAJNIJPKEDCBPHFNKEFJMFAA.NoSpam03@comcast.net>

This financial melt down has me quite miffed. The money involved would fund
several wars yet I fee we are leaving out the most vital information that
would make us truly informed.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:27 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] grenada/ was that's one big flag.
> >
> When it comes to war reporting, you can believe what you are told but
> you have to be wary  because you are not told what you need to know.
> Our government/corporate media does not out right lie to us, but they
> leave out the most vital information that would make us truly informed.
>
> Katie
> >


From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Apr 28 09:27:16 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:27:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
Message-ID: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>

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From tosca at prodigy.net  Tue Apr 28 09:33:36 2009
From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie Combs)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
In-Reply-To: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <366873.13537.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi, Mr. Bob, sir,
?
Maybe you could sign up? for a plot at the FG Community Garden and get a different kind of exercise there.? Also you could grow veggies and eat them and get more enjoyment that way.
?
Bonnie

--- On Tue, 4/28/09, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
To: "Grovenet" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:27 AM


Here's a recent report on a study that suggests how important it is for all of us (me included!!) to try to figure out what we need to do to end this epidemic. Maybe we could start some kind of online support group or?? I am certainly open for suggestions as to how to get down to a BMI of 25 (195 pounds) from my current BMI of 35 (and my current weight of 275) - an 80 pound difference!!

Suggestions anyone (other than just stop eating or exercise more)? I need some guidance as to how to make the change, not what change is needed, since and probably all of you know that!!

bob "help me, Ronda" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++








New-onset diabetes in older adults largely attributable to lifestyle April 27, 2009 | Michael O'Riordan 
?


Boston, MA - Even among older adults, a healthy lifestyle, one that includes physical activity, healthy dietary habits, smoking cessation, and light or moderate alcohol use, is associated with a significantly lower incidence of new-onset diabetes mellitus. Researchers showed that 80% of new cases of diabetes are attributable to these risk factors, a number that increases when obesity is included as a risk factor. 
"Our findings suggest that, even later in life, the great majority of cases of diabetes are related to lifestyle factors," write Dariush Mozaffarian (Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA) and colleagues in the April 28, 2009 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine. "Our results support the need for emphasizing healthy and achievable physical activity and dietary goals among older adults, including moderate leisure-time activity and walking pace, higher intake of dietary fiber and polyunsaturated fat, and lower intake of trans fat and easily digestible carbohydrates."
Previous studies, including a secondary analysis of the Diabetes Prevention Program trial, have shown that structured dietary advice and physical activity were most effective at reducing the risk of diabetes among the oldest participants. However, as the investigators point out, that trial included mostly high-risk patients participating in a highly structured intervention. Other studies have shown that certain lifestyle behaviors can lower the risk of diabetes, but these often looked at each lifestyle factor individually.
In this analysis of the Cardiovascular Health Study, Mozaffarian and colleagues investigated the relationship between lifestyle risk factors, evaluated in combination, and the incidence of diabetes over a 10-year period in 4883 men and women 65 years of age and older. The group defined optimal lifestyle characteristics and compared these low-risk behaviors with the risk of incident diabetes mellitus. 
Low-risk lifestyle behaviors were defined by physical-activity levels above the median and never smoking or smoking <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago. Alcohol use in this cohort was rare, with 94% consuming less than two drinks daily. Individuals were also assigned a dietary score based on their intake of dietary fiber, low glycemic index foods, lower trans fats, and a higher polyunsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio. Assessments of adiposity were also performed, with a low-risk body-mass index (BMI) defined as not being overweight, or a BMI <25, while a low-risk waist circumference for men was <92 cm and <88 cm for women.
Basic lifestyle risk factors, according to the researchers, strongly predicted diabetes incidence, with individuals cutting their risk in half when they were physically active and had good dietary habits. Overall, the risk of diabetes was 80% lower among individuals with physical-activity levels above the median, healthy dietary and smoking habits, and moderate alcohol use. When healthy BMIs and waist circumference were added to the model, the risk of new diabetes was reduced by 89%.Risk of diabetes mellitus according to low-risk lifestyle factors 





Low-risk lifestyle factors, n 

Participants (%) 

Hazard ratio (95% CI) 


2 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median and dietary score upper two quintiles) 

22.3

0.54 (0.38-0.76)


3 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus never smoker or former smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago) 

12.0

0.42 (0.25-0.71)


3 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median, dietary score upper two quintiles, and light or moderate alcohol use) 

12.8

0.32 (0.18-0.55)


4 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median, dietary score upper two quintiles, never smoker or former smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago, and light or moderate alcohol use) 

6.0

0.18 (0.06-0.56)


5 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus BMI <25 or waist circumference <88 cm women or <92 cm men) 

3.4

0.11 (0.01-0.76)

To download table as a slide, click on slide logo above 
If these associations are causal, "eight in 10 new cases of diabetes might have been prevented if all older adults were in the low-risk group for these lifestyle factors," write Mozaffarian and colleagues. When not being overweight or not having a large waist circumference was considered as a risk factor in addition to these other lifestyle behaviors, the number of possible prevented cases attributable to lifestyle factors would rise to nine in 10.
"The findings provide an estimate of the public-health burden of combined nonoptimal lifestyle risk factors for incidence of diabetes in older adults, the fastest growing segment of the population," write the researchers.
Source 

Mozaffarian D, Kamineni A, Carnethon M, et al. Lifestyle risk factors and new-onset diabetes mellitus in older adults. Arch Intern Med 2009; 169:798-807.

Related links 

Control of CVD risk factors has improved, but disparities between ethnic groups persist 
[Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Apr 20, 2009]

EUROASPIRE: Better lifestyle management needed for patients with CHD 
[Prevention > Prevention; Mar 12, 2009]

FIT HEART: Novel family-based intervention a good idea, but better methods needed 
[Prevention > Prevention; Nov 12, 2008]

Lifestyle, not drugs, for preventing type 2 diabetes: "Gladiatorial" debate concludes 
[Prevention > Prevention; Sep 11, 2008]

Statistics show a drop in heart-disease rates for women, but ethnic gaps still exist, and obesity a growing problem 
[HeartWire > News; Feb 09, 2007]




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From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Apr 28 09:37:21 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:37:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
In-Reply-To: <366873.13537.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <366873.13537.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CDDC1035-AA56-419C-BDE0-D53F34EF21E5@teleport.com>

Heh-heh, good plug, Bonnie!
Seriously though folks, we plan to open the garden for the season on  
May 4, and there are still plenty of plots left!
Check out our Web page, www.fggardens.org, for the application form.
Walt

On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Bonnie Combs wrote:

> Hi, Mr. Bob, sir,
>
> Maybe you could sign up  for a plot at the FG Community Garden and  
> get a different kind of exercise there.  Also you could grow  
> veggies and eat them and get more enjoyment that way.
>
> Bonnie
>
> --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:
>
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
> To: "Grovenet" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:27 AM
>
>
> Here's a recent report on a study that suggests how important it is  
> for all of us (me included!!) to try to figure out what we need to  
> do to end this epidemic. Maybe we could start some kind of online  
> support group or?? I am certainly open for suggestions as to how to  
> get down to a BMI of 25 (195 pounds) from my current BMI of 35 (and  
> my current weight of 275) - an 80 pound difference!!
>
> Suggestions anyone (other than just stop eating or exercise more)?  
> I need some guidance as to how to make the change, not what change  
> is needed, since and probably all of you know that!!
>
> bob "help me, Ronda" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> New-onset diabetes in older adults largely attributable to  
> lifestyle April 27, 2009 | Michael O'Riordan
>
>
>
> Boston, MA - Even among older adults, a healthy lifestyle, one that  
> includes physical activity, healthy dietary habits, smoking  
> cessation, and light or moderate alcohol use, is associated with a  
> significantly lower incidence of new-onset diabetes mellitus.  
> Researchers showed that 80% of new cases of diabetes are  
> attributable to these risk factors, a number that increases when  
> obesity is included as a risk factor.
> "Our findings suggest that, even later in life, the great majority  
> of cases of diabetes are related to lifestyle factors," write  
> Dariush Mozaffarian (Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA) and  
> colleagues in the April 28, 2009 issue of the Archives of Internal  
> Medicine. "Our results support the need for emphasizing healthy and  
> achievable physical activity and dietary goals among older adults,  
> including moderate leisure-time activity and walking pace, higher  
> intake of dietary fiber and polyunsaturated fat, and lower intake  
> of trans fat and easily digestible carbohydrates."
> Previous studies, including a secondary analysis of the Diabetes  
> Prevention Program trial, have shown that structured dietary advice  
> and physical activity were most effective at reducing the risk of  
> diabetes among the oldest participants. However, as the  
> investigators point out, that trial included mostly high-risk  
> patients participating in a highly structured intervention. Other  
> studies have shown that certain lifestyle behaviors can lower the  
> risk of diabetes, but these often looked at each lifestyle factor  
> individually.
> In this analysis of the Cardiovascular Health Study, Mozaffarian  
> and colleagues investigated the relationship between lifestyle risk  
> factors, evaluated in combination, and the incidence of diabetes  
> over a 10-year period in 4883 men and women 65 years of age and  
> older. The group defined optimal lifestyle characteristics and  
> compared these low-risk behaviors with the risk of incident  
> diabetes mellitus.
> Low-risk lifestyle behaviors were defined by physical-activity  
> levels above the median and never smoking or smoking <5 pack-years  
> or having quit >20 years ago. Alcohol use in this cohort was rare,  
> with 94% consuming less than two drinks daily. Individuals were  
> also assigned a dietary score based on their intake of dietary  
> fiber, low glycemic index foods, lower trans fats, and a higher  
> polyunsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio. Assessments of adiposity  
> were also performed, with a low-risk body-mass index (BMI) defined  
> as not being overweight, or a BMI <25, while a low-risk waist  
> circumference for men was <92 cm and <88 cm for women.
> Basic lifestyle risk factors, according to the researchers,  
> strongly predicted diabetes incidence, with individuals cutting  
> their risk in half when they were physically active and had good  
> dietary habits. Overall, the risk of diabetes was 80% lower among  
> individuals with physical-activity levels above the median, healthy  
> dietary and smoking habits, and moderate alcohol use. When healthy  
> BMIs and waist circumference were added to the model, the risk of  
> new diabetes was reduced by 89%.Risk of diabetes mellitus according  
> to low-risk lifestyle factors
>
>
>
>
>
> Low-risk lifestyle factors, n
>
> Participants (%)
>
> Hazard ratio (95% CI)
>
>
> 2 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median and  
> dietary score upper two quintiles)
>
> 22.3
>
> 0.54 (0.38-0.76)
>
>
> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus never smoker or  
> former smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago)
>
> 12.0
>
> 0.42 (0.25-0.71)
>
>
> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
> dietary score upper two quintiles, and light or moderate alcohol use)
>
> 12.8
>
> 0.32 (0.18-0.55)
>
>
> 4 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
> dietary score upper two quintiles, never smoker or former smoker <5  
> pack-years or having quit >20 years ago, and light or moderate  
> alcohol use)
>
> 6.0
>
> 0.18 (0.06-0.56)
>
>
> 5 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus BMI <25 or waist  
> circumference <88 cm women or <92 cm men)
>
> 3.4
>
> 0.11 (0.01-0.76)
>
> To download table as a slide, click on slide logo above
> If these associations are causal, "eight in 10 new cases of  
> diabetes might have been prevented if all older adults were in the  
> low-risk group for these lifestyle factors," write Mozaffarian and  
> colleagues. When not being overweight or not having a large waist  
> circumference was considered as a risk factor in addition to these  
> other lifestyle behaviors, the number of possible prevented cases  
> attributable to lifestyle factors would rise to nine in 10.
> "The findings provide an estimate of the public-health burden of  
> combined nonoptimal lifestyle risk factors for incidence of  
> diabetes in older adults, the fastest growing segment of the  
> population," write the researchers.
> Source
>
> Mozaffarian D, Kamineni A, Carnethon M, et al. Lifestyle risk  
> factors and new-onset diabetes mellitus in older adults. Arch  
> Intern Med 2009; 169:798-807.
>
> Related links
>
> Control of CVD risk factors has improved, but disparities between  
> ethnic groups persist
> [Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Apr 20, 2009]
>
> EUROASPIRE: Better lifestyle management needed for patients with CHD
> [Prevention > Prevention; Mar 12, 2009]
>
> FIT HEART: Novel family-based intervention a good idea, but better  
> methods needed
> [Prevention > Prevention; Nov 12, 2008]
>
> Lifestyle, not drugs, for preventing type 2 diabetes:  
> "Gladiatorial" debate concludes
> [Prevention > Prevention; Sep 11, 2008]
>
> Statistics show a drop in heart-disease rates for women, but ethnic  
> gaps still exist, and obesity a growing problem
> [HeartWire > News; Feb 09, 2007]
>
>
>
>
> Copyright ?1999-2009 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved.
> Privacy policy
> info at theheart.org
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Apr 28 10:25:53 2009
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:25:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
In-Reply-To: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
References: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <D87DE2C8-F8F3-4F2A-AACD-2C49E569A6B2@verizon.net>

Write the following on post it notes:
'Starting now, I eat healthy and exercise regularly because it feels  
better when I do."
Put one on your computer, one on your bathroom mirror, one on your  
dashboard, and everywhere else you can think of.

After that you can step it up with hypnosis, acupuncture, taking  
classes, controlled food plans, joining a gym, motivational videos  
etc one step at a time and what ever technique you are comfortable  
with. Try them all until you find what works for you.

The most important first step is the one that happens when you talk  
to yourself and you have already started that.
Just do it for yourself and yourself alone, not necessarily by  
yourself, but for yourself.

Good on ya Bob. You are in good company. And if you start some kind  
of online support group there are others who will join you.


Katie



On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Here's a recent report on a study that suggests how important it is  
> for all of us (me included!!) to try to figure out what we need to  
> do to end this epidemic. Maybe we could start some kind of online  
> support group or?? I am certainly open for suggestions as to how to  
> get down to a BMI of 25 (195 pounds) from my current BMI of 35 (and  
> my current weight of 275) - an 80 pound difference!!
>
> Suggestions anyone (other than just stop eating or exercise more)?  
> I need some guidance as to how to make the change, not what change  
> is needed, since and probably all of you know that!!
>
> bob "help me, Ronda" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> <minithologo_white.jpg>
>>
>> New-onset diabetes in older adults largely attributable to lifestyle
>> April 27, 2009 | Michael O'Riordan
>>
>> Boston, MA - Even among older adults, a healthy lifestyle, one  
>> that includes physical activity, healthy dietary habits, smoking  
>> cessation, and light or moderate alcohol use, is associated with a  
>> significantly lower incidence of new-onset diabetes mellitus.  
>> Researchers showed that 80% of new cases of diabetes are  
>> attributable to these risk factors, a number that increases when  
>> obesity is included as a risk factor.
>>
>> "Our findings suggest that, even later in life, the great majority  
>> of cases of diabetes are related to lifestyle factors," write  
>> Dariush Mozaffarian (Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA) and  
>> colleagues in the April 28, 2009 issue of the Archives of Internal  
>> Medicine. "Our results support the need for emphasizing healthy  
>> and achievable physical activity and dietary goals among older  
>> adults, including moderate leisure-time activity and walking pace,  
>> higher intake of dietary fiber and polyunsaturated fat, and lower  
>> intake of trans fat and easily digestible carbohydrates."
>>
>> Previous studies, including a secondary analysis of the Diabetes  
>> Prevention Program trial, have shown that structured dietary  
>> advice and physical activity were most effective at reducing the  
>> risk of diabetes among the oldest participants. However, as the  
>> investigators point out, that trial included mostly high-risk  
>> patients participating in a highly structured intervention. Other  
>> studies have shown that certain lifestyle behaviors can lower the  
>> risk of diabetes, but these often looked at each lifestyle factor  
>> individually.
>>
>> In this analysis of the Cardiovascular Health Study, Mozaffarian  
>> and colleagues investigated the relationship between lifestyle  
>> risk factors, evaluated in combination, and the incidence of  
>> diabetes over a 10-year period in 4883 men and women 65 years of  
>> age and older. The group defined optimal lifestyle characteristics  
>> and compared these low-risk behaviors with the risk of incident  
>> diabetes mellitus.
>>
>> Low-risk lifestyle behaviors were defined by physical-activity  
>> levels above the median and never smoking or smoking <5 pack-years  
>> or having quit >20 years ago. Alcohol use in this cohort was rare,  
>> with 94% consuming less than two drinks daily. Individuals were  
>> also assigned a dietary score based on their intake of dietary  
>> fiber, low glycemic index foods, lower trans fats, and a higher  
>> polyunsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio. Assessments of adiposity  
>> were also performed, with a low-risk body-mass index (BMI) defined  
>> as not being overweight, or a BMI <25, while a low-risk waist  
>> circumference for men was <92 cm and <88 cm for women.
>>
>> Basic lifestyle risk factors, according to the researchers,  
>> strongly predicted diabetes incidence, with individuals cutting  
>> their risk in half when they were physically active and had good  
>> dietary habits. Overall, the risk of diabetes was 80% lower among  
>> individuals with physical-activity levels above the median,  
>> healthy dietary and smoking habits, and moderate alcohol use. When  
>> healthy BMIs and waist circumference were added to the model, the  
>> risk of new diabetes was reduced by 89%.
>>
>> Risk of diabetes mellitus according to low-risk lifestyle factors
>>
>> Low-risk lifestyle factors, n
>> Participants (%)
>> Hazard ratio (95% CI)
>> 2 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median and  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles)
>> 22.3
>> 0.54 (0.38-0.76)
>> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus never smoker or  
>> former smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago)
>> 12.0
>> 0.42 (0.25-0.71)
>> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles, and light or moderate alcohol use)
>> 12.8
>> 0.32 (0.18-0.55)
>> 4 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles, never smoker or former smoker  
>> <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago, and light or moderate  
>> alcohol use)
>> 6.0
>> 0.18 (0.06-0.56)
>> 5 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus BMI <25 or waist  
>> circumference <88 cm women or <92 cm men)
>> 3.4
>> 0.11 (0.01-0.76)
>> To download table as a slide, click on slide logo above
>> If these associations are causal, "eight in 10 new cases of  
>> diabetes might have been prevented if all older adults were in the  
>> low-risk group for these lifestyle factors," write Mozaffarian and  
>> colleagues. When not being overweight or not having a large waist  
>> circumference was considered as a risk factor in addition to these  
>> other lifestyle behaviors, the number of possible prevented cases  
>> attributable to lifestyle factors would rise to nine in 10.
>>
>> "The findings provide an estimate of the public-health burden of  
>> combined nonoptimal lifestyle risk factors for incidence of  
>> diabetes in older adults, the fastest growing segment of the  
>> population," write the researchers.
>>
>> Source
>> Mozaffarian D, Kamineni A, Carnethon M, et al. Lifestyle risk  
>> factors and new-onset diabetes mellitus in older adults. Arch  
>> Intern Med 2009; 169:798-807.
>>
>> Related links
>> Control of CVD risk factors has improved, but disparities between  
>> ethnic groups persist
>> [Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Apr 20, 2009]
>> EUROASPIRE: Better lifestyle management needed for patients with CHD
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Mar 12, 2009]
>> FIT HEART: Novel family-based intervention a good idea, but better  
>> methods needed
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Nov 12, 2008]
>> Lifestyle, not drugs, for preventing type 2 diabetes:  
>> "Gladiatorial" debate concludes
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Sep 11, 2008]
>> Statistics show a drop in heart-disease rates for women, but  
>> ethnic gaps still exist, and obesity a growing problem
>> [HeartWire > News; Feb 09, 2007]
>>
>> <minithologo.jpg>
>> Copyright ?1999-2009 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved.
>> Privacy policy
>> info at theheart.org
>
> <minithologo_white.jpg><minithologo.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From obrzl at verizon.net  Tue Apr 28 12:05:20 2009
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
Message-ID: <702956.4483.qm@web84205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

??? Not to preach, but I agree with Katie and would humbly add that what has sometimes worked for me is a kind of psychological self reprogramming.? It involves redefining what I consider self rewarding.? At my best, I have redefined hunger as a higher state of awareness, made it my friend, and consciously taken pride and satisfaction in being hungry.? Hunger is power.? Hunger is freedom.? Each good day is a pearl, which is then added to the strand.
??? Best wishes, 
?
Mark
?
?? 

--- On Tue, 4/28/09, Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 5:25 PM

Write the following on post it notes:
'Starting now, I eat healthy and exercise regularly because it feels  
better when I do."
Put one on your computer, one on your bathroom mirror, one on your  
dashboard, and everywhere else you can think of.

After that you can step it up with hypnosis, acupuncture, taking  
classes, controlled food plans, joining a gym, motivational videos  
etc one step at a time and what ever technique you are comfortable  
with. Try them all until you find what works for you.

The most important first step is the one that happens when you talk  
to yourself and you have already started that.
Just do it for yourself and yourself alone, not necessarily by  
yourself, but for yourself.

Good on ya Bob. You are in good company. And if you start some kind  
of online support group there are others who will join you.


Katie



On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Here's a recent report on a study that suggests how important it is  
> for all of us (me included!!) to try to figure out what we need to  
> do to end this epidemic. Maybe we could start some kind of online  
> support group or?? I am certainly open for suggestions as to how to  
> get down to a BMI of 25 (195 pounds) from my current BMI of 35 (and  
> my current weight of 275) - an 80 pound difference!!
>
> Suggestions anyone (other than just stop eating or exercise more)?  
> I need some guidance as to how to make the change, not what change  
> is needed, since and probably all of you know that!!
>
> bob "help me, Ronda" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> <minithologo_white.jpg>
>>
>> New-onset diabetes in older adults largely attributable to lifestyle
>> April 27, 2009 | Michael O'Riordan
>>
>> Boston, MA - Even among older adults, a healthy lifestyle, one  
>> that includes physical activity, healthy dietary habits, smoking  
>> cessation, and light or moderate alcohol use, is associated with a  
>> significantly lower incidence of new-onset diabetes mellitus.  
>> Researchers showed that 80% of new cases of diabetes are  
>> attributable to these risk factors, a number that increases when  
>> obesity is included as a risk factor.
>>
>> "Our findings suggest that, even later in life, the great
majority  
>> of cases of diabetes are related to lifestyle factors," write  
>> Dariush Mozaffarian (Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA) and
 
>> colleagues in the April 28, 2009 issue of the Archives of Internal  
>> Medicine. "Our results support the need for emphasizing healthy  
>> and achievable physical activity and dietary goals among older  
>> adults, including moderate leisure-time activity and walking pace,  
>> higher intake of dietary fiber and polyunsaturated fat, and lower  
>> intake of trans fat and easily digestible carbohydrates."
>>
>> Previous studies, including a secondary analysis of the Diabetes  
>> Prevention Program trial, have shown that structured dietary  
>> advice and physical activity were most effective at reducing the  
>> risk of diabetes among the oldest participants. However, as the  
>> investigators point out, that trial included mostly high-risk  
>> patients participating in a highly structured intervention. Other  
>> studies have shown that certain lifestyle behaviors can lower the  
>> risk of diabetes, but these often looked at each lifestyle factor  
>> individually.
>>
>> In this analysis of the Cardiovascular Health Study, Mozaffarian  
>> and colleagues investigated the relationship between lifestyle  
>> risk factors, evaluated in combination, and the incidence of  
>> diabetes over a 10-year period in 4883 men and women 65 years of  
>> age and older. The group defined optimal lifestyle characteristics  
>> and compared these low-risk behaviors with the risk of incident  
>> diabetes mellitus.
>>
>> Low-risk lifestyle behaviors were defined by physical-activity  
>> levels above the median and never smoking or smoking <5 pack-years 

>> or having quit >20 years ago. Alcohol use in this cohort was rare, 

>> with 94% consuming less than two drinks daily. Individuals were  
>> also assigned a dietary score based on their intake of dietary  
>> fiber, low glycemic index foods, lower trans fats, and a higher  
>> polyunsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio. Assessments of adiposity  
>> were also performed, with a low-risk body-mass index (BMI) defined  
>> as not being overweight, or a BMI <25, while a low-risk waist  
>> circumference for men was <92 cm and <88 cm for women.
>>
>> Basic lifestyle risk factors, according to the researchers,  
>> strongly predicted diabetes incidence, with individuals cutting  
>> their risk in half when they were physically active and had good  
>> dietary habits. Overall, the risk of diabetes was 80% lower among  
>> individuals with physical-activity levels above the median,  
>> healthy dietary and smoking habits, and moderate alcohol use. When  
>> healthy BMIs and waist circumference were added to the model, the  
>> risk of new diabetes was reduced by 89%.
>>
>> Risk of diabetes mellitus according to low-risk lifestyle factors
>>
>> Low-risk lifestyle factors, n
>> Participants (%)
>> Hazard ratio (95% CI)
>> 2 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median and  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles)
>> 22.3
>> 0.54 (0.38-0.76)
>> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus never smoker or  
>> former smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago)
>> 12.0
>> 0.42 (0.25-0.71)
>> 3 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles, and light or moderate alcohol use)
>> 12.8
>> 0.32 (0.18-0.55)
>> 4 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median,  
>> dietary score upper two quintiles, never smoker or former smoker  
>> <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago, and light or
moderate  
>> alcohol use)
>> 6.0
>> 0.18 (0.06-0.56)
>> 5 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus BMI <25 or waist  
>> circumference <88 cm women or <92 cm men)
>> 3.4
>> 0.11 (0.01-0.76)
>> To download table as a slide, click on slide logo above
>> If these associations are causal, "eight in 10 new cases of  
>> diabetes might have been prevented if all older adults were in the  
>> low-risk group for these lifestyle factors," write Mozaffarian
and  
>> colleagues. When not being overweight or not having a large waist  
>> circumference was considered as a risk factor in addition to these  
>> other lifestyle behaviors, the number of possible prevented cases  
>> attributable to lifestyle factors would rise to nine in 10.
>>
>> "The findings provide an estimate of the public-health burden of 

>> combined nonoptimal lifestyle risk factors for incidence of  
>> diabetes in older adults, the fastest growing segment of the  
>> population," write the researchers.
>>
>> Source
>> Mozaffarian D, Kamineni A, Carnethon M, et al. Lifestyle risk  
>> factors and new-onset diabetes mellitus in older adults. Arch  
>> Intern Med 2009; 169:798-807.
>>
>> Related links
>> Control of CVD risk factors has improved, but disparities between  
>> ethnic groups persist
>> [Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Apr 20, 2009]
>> EUROASPIRE: Better lifestyle management needed for patients with CHD
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Mar 12, 2009]
>> FIT HEART: Novel family-based intervention a good idea, but better  
>> methods needed
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Nov 12, 2008]
>> Lifestyle, not drugs, for preventing type 2 diabetes:  
>> "Gladiatorial" debate concludes
>> [Prevention > Prevention; Sep 11, 2008]
>> Statistics show a drop in heart-disease rates for women, but  
>> ethnic gaps still exist, and obesity a growing problem
>> [HeartWire > News; Feb 09, 2007]
>>
>> <minithologo.jpg>
>> Copyright ?1999-2009 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved.
>> Privacy policy
>> info at theheart.org
>
> <minithologo_white.jpg><minithologo.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From chuck at grovenet.net  Tue Apr 28 13:18:42 2009
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:18:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
In-Reply-To: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
References: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <49F764A2.8040001@grovenet.net>

Unfortunately, there's no easy way.  As the article says, a lifestyle 
change is needed.  Back when I had my computer shop, and access to 
Cornerstone, Quiznos, and La Sierra every day, I was 225lbs with a BMI 
of 30.5.  I have never been diagnosed with pre-diabetes - but I know I 
was close. 

Today I am 188lbs with a BMI of 25.5. 

Here's what I did to make the change.

1.  Stopped drinking soda.  Not even diet sodas.  I drink water, some 
juice, and coffee.  For a sweetener I use Stevia. 
2.  Cut back on all sweets.  Candy bars, sugar, cakes, cookies, pies, 
ice cream, etc.  These are now a rare treat. 
3.  Stopped all Fast Food.   We know it's not good for us anyway.  I now 
take a lunch to work - usually salad. 
4.  Cut back on all Processed Food.  It's mostly salt, sugar, and MSG 
anyway.
5.  And lastly - I became a Vegetarian.  

I'm sure this sounds drastic - but it worked for me.  I did this in 
stages, one at a time.  You feel deprived at first, but it's just your 
body craving sugar.  You get over it.  Today, I do not feel deprived in 
any way.  Oh sure I still miss my Cheeseburgers and Fries, but not much. 

There is a Documentary called Simply Raw - Reversing Diabetes in 30 
Days.  http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/?Clk=2723421

These folks reversed and cured their Type 2 AND Type 1 diabetes by 
changing their diet.  Some couldn't do it.  Most did.  Wonderful movie.  
But it does require a lifestyle change.  And that - is not easy. 

From jim at benchmarkinspections.com  Tue Apr 28 13:20:47 2009
From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:20:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .
In-Reply-To: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
References: <49F72E64.8070200@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <F225998FC6C942FF949ED0C088C4A359@JimDell>

Well, severe injury and chronic pain are very effective at generating weight
loss. I dropped 45 pounds that way without even trying. However, I don't
recommend it as an overall way to improve your health. I'm now struggling to
keep the weight off and it ain't easy. Here are a few techniques that might
help: 

 

1.                  Wear a pedometer. One study showed that just wearing a
pedometer caused people to add and average of 2,000 steps per day to their
normal routine. 

2.                  Keep a food journal. Never be without it. The simple act
of recording your food intake will reduce your food intake.

3.                  Eat only fresh fruit before noon. This gives you plenty
of ready carbs and fiber. Get your complex carbs & protein later in the day.
Most of us need to eat more fruit. 

4.                  Force yourself to drink 16 oz of water before every
meal. You'll eat less. Besides, most of us need the water.

5.                  Plan for snacks between meals each day. Don't wait till
you're hungry to decide what to eat. 

6.                  Eat anything you want for dinner but only have one
reasonably-sized serving. After dinner eat nothing else, except water, until
morning. 

7.                  Go to bed earlier each night and get up earlier each
morning. 

8.                  As soon as you get hungry, eat something. Don't deny
yourself food. Just make better choices. 

9.                  Keep lots of healthy food in the house. Don't allow any
bad food in the house. 

10.             Try some aversion therapy. Wear a rubber band like a
bracelet, loosely around your wrist. When you crave something bad, snap the
rubber band sharply against your wrist three times. 

11.             Avoid fast food joints and never set foot in a 7-Eleven or a
Plaid Pantry again. There's nothing edible in any of those places. They only
sell poison. 

12.             When you're home, don't wear oversized, comfortable clothes.
Dig through your closet to find clothes that are a little too small for you.
Wear those. They'll serve as a constant reminder. 

13.             Tighten your belt one notch more than is comfortable.
Tighten it another notch more at mealtimes. 

14.             Begin to walk at a gentle pace every day. 

 

- Jim Katen

 

  _____  

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:27 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Hope for us all if we can do it . . . .

 

Here's a recent report on a study that suggests how important it is for all
of us (me included!!) to try to figure out what we need to do to end this
epidemic. Maybe we could start some kind of online support group or?? I am
certainly open for suggestions as to how to get down to a BMI of 25 (195
pounds) from my current BMI of 35 (and my current weight of 275) - an 80
pound difference!!

Suggestions anyone (other than just stop eating or exercise more)? I need
some guidance as to how to make the change, not what change is needed, since
and probably all of you know that!!

bob "help me, Ronda" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



tho

 <javascript:window.print();> 


New-onset diabetes in older adults largely attributable to lifestyle 

April 27, 2009 | Michael
<http://www.theheart.org/viewAuthorBio.do?primaryKey=114633>  O'Riordan 

  <http://www.theheart.org/displayItem.do?primaryKey=964523&type=ppt> 


Boston, MA - Even among older adults, a healthy lifestyle, one that includes
physical activity, healthy dietary habits, smoking cessation, and light or
moderate alcohol use, is associated with a significantly lower incidence of
new-onset diabetes mellitus. Researchers showed that 80% of new cases of
diabetes are attributable to these risk factors, a number that increases
when obesity is included as a risk factor. 

"Our findings suggest that, even later in life, the great majority of cases
of diabetes are related to lifestyle factors," write Dariush Mozaffarian
(Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA) and colleagues in the April 28,
2009 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine. "Our results support the
need for emphasizing healthy and achievable physical activity and dietary
goals among older adults, including moderate leisure-time activity and
walking pace, higher intake of dietary fiber and polyunsaturated fat, and
lower intake of trans fat and easily digestible carbohydrates."

Previous studies, including a secondary analysis of the Diabetes Prevention
Program trial, have shown that structured dietary advice and physical
activity were most effective at reducing the risk of diabetes among the
oldest participants. However, as the investigators point out, that trial
included mostly high-risk patients participating in a highly structured
intervention. Other studies have shown that certain lifestyle behaviors can
lower the risk of diabetes, but these often looked at each lifestyle factor
individually.

In this analysis of the Cardiovascular Health Study, Mozaffarian and
colleagues investigated the relationship between lifestyle risk factors,
evaluated in combination, and the incidence of diabetes over a 10-year
period in 4883 men and women 65 years of age and older. The group defined
optimal lifestyle characteristics and compared these low-risk behaviors with
the risk of incident diabetes mellitus. 

Low-risk lifestyle behaviors were defined by physical-activity levels above
the median and never smoking or smoking <5 pack-years or having quit >20
years ago. Alcohol use in this cohort was rare, with 94% consuming less than
two drinks daily. Individuals were also assigned a dietary score based on
their intake of dietary fiber, low glycemic index foods, lower trans fats,
and a higher polyunsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio. Assessments of
adiposity were also performed, with a low-risk body-mass index (BMI) defined
as not being overweight, or a BMI <25, while a low-risk waist circumference
for men was <92 cm and <88 cm for women.

Basic lifestyle risk factors, according to the researchers, strongly
predicted diabetes incidence, with individuals cutting their risk in half
when they were physically active and had good dietary habits. Overall, the
risk of diabetes was 80% lower among individuals with physical-activity
levels above the median, healthy dietary and smoking habits, and moderate
alcohol use. When healthy BMIs and waist circumference were added to the
model, the risk of new diabetes was reduced by 89%.

Risk of diabetes mellitus according to low-risk lifestyle factors 


Low-risk lifestyle factors, n 

Participants (%) 

Hazard ratio (95% CI) 


2 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median and dietary
score upper two quintiles) 

22.3

0.54 (0.38-0.76)


3 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus never smoker or former
smoker <5 pack-years or having quit >20 years ago) 

12.0

0.42 (0.25-0.71)


3 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median, dietary score
upper two quintiles, and light or moderate alcohol use) 

12.8

0.32 (0.18-0.55)


4 low-risk lifestyle factors (physical activity level >median, dietary score
upper two quintiles, never smoker or former smoker <5 pack-years or having
quit >20 years ago, and light or moderate alcohol use) 

6.0

0.18 (0.06-0.56)


5 low-risk lifestyle factors (same as above plus BMI <25 or waist
circumference <88 cm women or <92 cm men) 

3.4

0.11 (0.01-0.76)

To download table as a slide, click on slide logo above 

If these associations are causal, "eight in 10 new cases of diabetes might
have been prevented if all older adults were in the low-risk group for these
lifestyle factors," write Mozaffarian and colleagues. When not being
overweight or not having a large waist circumference was considered as a
risk factor in addition to these other lifestyle behaviors, the number of
possible prevented cases attributable to lifestyle factors would rise to
nine in 10.

"The findings provide an estimate of the public-health burden of combined
nonoptimal lifestyle risk factors for incidence of diabetes in older adults,
the fastest growing segment of the population," write the researchers.

Source 

1.     Mozaffarian D, Kamineni A, Carnethon M, et al. Lifestyle risk factors
and new-onset diabetes mellitus in older adults. Arch Intern Med 2009;
169:798-807.




Related links 

*	Control <http://www.theheart.org/article/961653.do>  of CVD risk
factors has improved, but disparities between ethnic groups persist 
[Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Apr 20, 2009]
*	EUROASPIRE: <http://www.theheart.org/article/947933.do>  Better
lifestyle management needed for patients with CHD 
[Prevention > Prevention; Mar 12, 2009]
*	FIT <http://www.theheart.org/article/920549.do>  HEART: Novel
family-based intervention a good idea, but better methods needed 
[Prevention > Prevention; Nov 12, 2008]
*	Lifestyle, <http://www.theheart.org/article/903409.do>  not drugs,
for preventing type 2 diabetes: "Gladiatorial" debate concludes 
[Prevention > Prevention; Sep 11, 2008]
*	Statistics <http://www.theheart.org/article/770163.do>  show a drop
in heart-disease rates for women, but ethnic gaps still exist, and obesity a
growing problem 
[HeartWire > News; Feb 09, 2007]




tho

Copyright R1999-2009 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy <http://www.medscape.com/pjsp/public/privacy.html> 
info at theheart.org

 

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From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Apr 29 09:29:35 2009
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:29:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden--Final Sprint
Message-ID: <998608D0-AC48-4F88-9969-7F976B1E5BDB@teleport.com>

Hello, all!
The Forest Grove Community Garden is in the final sprint to completion!
Last Saturday's "Ribbon Cutting" day was actually the biggest work
party we've seen, with 60 people involved in building the fence on
the western side, spreading wood chips on the pathways, rototilling
the garden for the second time, mowing the grass, and getting the
southern portion of the fence ready to finish.
Deputy Ken Adams brought an inmate work crew who, under Holly Tsur's
direction, helped assemble and fill four of the donated raised-bed
plots, and took out the old mounds of spoil dirt that used to sit in
the southwest corner of the garden. Tony Matiaco's friends and fellow
Scouts were out in force again.
On Sunday, the Deputy's work crew returned to assemble and fill the
last two raised beds, level some low spots in the garden entrance,
and move a big pile of steer compost off the northern side of the
garden and onto the grass border, where garden users can access it
more easily.
The next day, volunteers cleaned out the old tool shed, building
interior racks for tools and exterior racks for garden hoses. The
shed now offers much more dry inside storage. The accumulated trash
and debris from weeks of work was hauled away in Mike Federman's pickup.
On Tuesday, the Garden was carefully re-measured and maps drawn for
staking and marking the individual plots.
We are in the final sprint, and due to open Monday, May 4!

Only these tasks remain to be completed:
*  Finishing the southern fence separating the parking lot from the
Garden, and installing two gates to let gardeners and necessary
vehicle traffic through.
* Rototilling the garden for a third time, while not strictly
necessary,  would be very good, since this would reduce the number of
weeds gardeners will have to deal with. However, the current rainy
conditions might make this impractical for now. We can, however,
square up the east and west borders of the cultivated area with hand
tools.
* Spreading the last of the wood chips on the garden paths.
* Staking and numbering plots and installing signage in the Garden
would be the final step before opening it for use.
These three final jobs could be easily finished in hours by the
caliber of volunteers who have turned out the last few weeks! But as
usual, we desperately need wheelbarrows! We have two loaned ones and
a rickety little antique that Mike and I actually rescued from the
the trash at the Transfer Station, but we'll need more when many
gardeners are working!

However, despite our success so far, one final obstacle remains:
getting people to USE the Garden! More than 100 plots are still
unclaimed, and we want the benefits of the Garden to be as widespread
as possible.
It isn't enough to offer sunny, fertile garden plots, organic
compost, leaf mulch and irrigation water, all for $30 or less a
season; we also have to let people know they are available!
Paid advertising only goes so far. Word of mouth is the most effective
advertising.
We've got to get our posters out where people can see them, do door-
to-door canvassing with our fliers in the immediate neighborhood,
spread the word among co-workers, friends and acquaintances.
After all, the Community Garden is only the first step toward a great
goal-- giving local people more control over their own food, their
own health and their own lives.

The weekly Planning Meeting, to exchange information, claim tasks for  
this Saturday's work party and
plan future work, will be at the usual time and place: Thursday
evening, 7 p.m., 1817 17th Avenue. All are welcome.
Let's get the job finished!
Walt




From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 29 10:09:55 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:09:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden--Final Sprint
In-Reply-To: <998608D0-AC48-4F88-9969-7F976B1E5BDB@teleport.com>
References: <998608D0-AC48-4F88-9969-7F976B1E5BDB@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <49F889E3.1010801@jurislex.com>

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From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 29 11:06:46 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:06:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . . .
Message-ID: <49F89736.7000003@jurislex.com>

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From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Apr 29 11:34:36 2009
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:34:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Education Week: High Court Hears Special Education Case
Message-ID: <49F89DBC.4090701@jurislex.com>

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From phoenixacm at aol.com  Wed Apr 29 13:19:38 2009
From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:19:38 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden--Final Sprint
In-Reply-To: <49F889E3.1010801@jurislex.com>
References: <49F889E3.1010801@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8CB971EF45AD1F4-11C-491@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>


And a hearty Hear! Hear!

Jane

Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Community Garden--Final Sprint




Kudos to Walt and all his helpers for pushing this
oh-so-timely project forward!!



bob

+++++++++++++++++++++++



Walt Wentz wrote:

  Hello, all!
The Forest Grove Community Garden is in the final sprint to completion!
Last Saturday's "Ribbon Cutting" day was actually the biggest work
party we've seen, with 60 people involved in building the fence on
the western side, spreading wood chips on the pathways, rototilling
the garden for the second time, mowing the grass, and getting the
southern portion of the fence ready to finish.
&lt;snip&gt;_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 29 14:45:40 2009
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:45:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . .
	.
In-Reply-To: <49F89736.7000003@jurislex.com>
References: <49F89736.7000003@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <93615.17442.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sure am glad I'm not a judge . . . 

I can understand the plight of the parents.? After all,?we do indeed want a good education for our children?from our public school system.? But?with T.A.'s situation, the private boarding school was the only option?? I'm guessing this extra info. can't be brought up in court but I'm wondering if the family or at least one parent also moved to the?Prineville area to be close to the son during his time at the boarding school.? Or did they have frequent visits w/their son?

I agree?our school system needs to provide?a good/excellent education.? I just can't agree?with?T.A.'s parents enrolling T.A. in a private boarding school first?then followed by the parents hiring a lawyer?in order to get reimbursed for their decision.

Again, sure am glad I'm not a judge . . . 
?
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:06:46 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . . .

Here's one of the first takes on the School District and special ed before the US Supreme Court - 


________________________________


High Court Justices Weigh Funding for Special Education
Tony Mauro
04-29-2009

The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday waded into the contentious debate that takes place in public schools every day between parents seeking special education services for their children and school administrators who are trying to contain costs. 
As is often the case, Justice Anthony Kennedy appeared to hold the key vote in deciding Forest Grove School District v. T.A., No. 08-305, and his comments at the argument were difficult to interpret as favoring one side or the other.
At issue is whether parents must first try out the special ed program offered by the public school before they can move their child to a private school program and seek reimbursement for the tuition.
Justices seemed at turns sympathetic with parents who "can't wait years" to find the best program for their children, as Justice David H. Souter put it, and with school systems that merely require that a public school be given a chance to devise a program for the child before having to make costly reimbursements for private programs. "All they're saying is, 'give it a try,' " said Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. at one point.
In the case before the Court today, a student identified only as T.A., now 23, was a public school student in Oregon. In spite of difficulties in school, he never used special education services. School officials evaluated him and suspected he had Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, but concluded he was not eligible for special ed.
After he experienced more serious problems and began using marijuana in 2003, T.A.'s parents took him out of the public high school and enrolled him in a residential private school where tuition was $5,200 a month. His family sought reimbursement from the school district.
At the district court level, a judge ruled that because T.A. had not used special ed services at the public school first, the statute did not allow reimbursement for the private school tuition.
But the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reversed, ruling that T.A. was eligible for reimbursement, in part because the public school did not offer a special ed program to him in the first place. In that circumstance, the appeals panel said "principles of equity" require that the private school tuition be paid by the public school district.
Gary Feinerman, a partner in Sidley Austin's Chicago office who argued for the Forest Grove school district in Oregon, said the language of the statute was clear that the public school program must be tried first.
But several justices suggested that rule did not seem fair if the school system, as it did with T.A., does not find the student eligible for a special ed program.
Feinerman said that under appeals processes that are in place, students in that circumstance would be offered a program on a "very tight turnaround." In fact when an administrative hearing officer in T.A.'s case found that he was entitled to special ed services at the public school, a plan was quickly devised.
David Salmons, a partner in Bingham McCutchen's Washington office who argued on behalf of the student, said students should not be penalized by a school's "wrong eligibility determinations" denying special ed services and forced to pay tuition reimbursements.
But Roberts seemed sympathetic to the schools when he said, "It's a big expense you are asking the school district to incur. ... All they are saying is 'give it a try for 10 days.' "
Assistant to the Solicitor General Eric Miller, arguing on the side of the student, said that if schools are able to deny private school reimbursement by refusing special ed services in the first place, it would "effectively be an incentive for districts to stonewall."
Tuesday's case represents the third time school districts have sought relief from the high court for what schools fear would be a sharp increase in costs for special education services. The National School Boards Association in a brief to the court said those costs "vastly exceed" the federal funding they receive under the Individuals With Disabilities Education Act.
In 2007, Board of Education of City School Dist. of City of New York v. Tom F., 128 S. Ct. 1, raising the same issue as the case Tuesday, was docketed, briefed and argued. But shortly before the arguments, Kennedy announced without explanation that he was recusing himself from the case. A week after the case was argued, the Court affirmed the lower court ruling in favor of the student by a 4-4 vote, making it clear that Kennedy's absence from the case was key to the outcome.
Later that term, Kennedy recused in Board of Educ. of Hyde Park v. Frank G., 128 S. Ct. 436, which also raised the same issue, and the Court denied review before the case was fully briefed or argued.
Both cases were from the New York City area, where some of Kennedy's children and grandchildren live, leading to unconfirmed speculation that Kennedy recused because of some family connection to special education services.
?Copyright 2009. Incisive Media US Properties, LLC. All rights reserved.


      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 29 18:01:20 2009
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:01:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . .
	.
In-Reply-To: <93615.17442.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <49F89736.7000003@jurislex.com>
	<93615.17442.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <975163.75199.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Having raised a son who grew up with some pretty severe ADHD issues, I can sympathize with the parents to a certain degree. My son was identified as both Talented and Gifted and as having ADHD at a very young age. If you imagine that that was a situation where neither of his wide-ranging educational needs were met on either end by his school district, you're absolutely right. He not only wasn't challenged enough intellectually, his learning difficulties made it impossible for him to fit within the round holes that kids are forced into in our public school system. I can remember all those meetings with school counsellors and administrators where they tried to convince us about all the wonderful accommodations they were making for him. Meanwhile, his grades weren't at par with his intellect, he hated school, kids were mean to him, he couldn't keep up with his homework, and he struggled every day. It was impossible for him to complete the amount of homework
 he was given -- particularly the tedious amounts of busywork he was far too frequently given. And when he got to community college level, it was worse. We were told that, by law, the community college had to give him "tutors". Well, those "tutors" were volunteer students and he always got the luck of the draw whenever he signed up for one, and usually his luck was very bad. He'd go in for help with his Calculus, and the tutor would say things like, "I don't remember how to do that." I wondered where all the money allocated for special ed in community college was going. I can't tell you the hundreds of hours that his dad and I spent trying to help him keep afloat in school. After a while, I felt like I was an unfit mother because I felt like I was always on his case to get his homework done. What's more, I think, to a large extent, he didn't have a very good childhood because he was forever trying to get his homework done (and procrastinate at not
 getting his homework done) and couldn't do fun things. So many times he had to be excluded from doing things he wanted to do because he hadn't finished his homework. It was a constant battle. Teachers would either say we were helping him too much (like, THAT was the the reason for his problems) or they would say we weren't doing enough. Go figure.

I can see that those who don't have a child with learning disabilities might find it extravagant to pay for educational accommodations for such students. But, my son, even on ADHD medications that I hated giving him, struggled so much yet is a very brilliant young man who could contribute to society in a big way if he had had the privilege of more one-on-one education. I learned once from a special education teacher that districts often spend tens of thousands of dollars on retarded students who will never contribute to society in a very productive way. She told me that with my son's intellect, I should never feel guilty for the amount of money my district was paying to accommodate him because he had the aptitude to someday pay society back for what he was given. Even so, I can't see that his school district did all that much for him.

I think, to a large degree, our educational system hasn't evolved a whole lot from the days when I was in school, and it was certainly bad then. One thing has evolved in a big way though:  pre-school education in the form of Sesame Street. The producers of Sesame Street have found ways to get and keep kids' attention and teach them a huge amount at a very young age. Why can't our educational system evolve in similar ways for students as they grow beyond their pre-school years? Why can't our educational system evolve better, more effective ways to grab and keep students' attention?

Why can't our educational system be more EXPERIENTIAL so that school will be more relevant for kids--particularly kids with ADHD? Why are we still giving kids busywork, making them take tests, and having them memorize so much? Why are they forced to sit still for such long periods of time? 

As a person in the workforce, how many TESTS have you been asked to study for and take while working? How relevant is test taking in the grand scheme of things? Do we make kids take tests simply because it's an easy way for educators to judge kids' knowledge and progress? Is it more for the kids or for the teachers?

In a way, I'm more than a little glad to see this ruling today. Sure, it has huge tax implications. But, maybe it'll do some good toward shaking up our educational system so that it might someday better address the evolving needs of our kids.

Holly




________________________________
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:45:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . . .

Sure am glad I'm not a judge . . . 

I can understand the plight of the parents.  After all, we do indeed want a good education for our children from our public school system.  But with T.A.'s situation, the private boarding school was the only option?  I'm guessing this extra info. can't be brought up in court but I'm wondering if the family or at least one parent also moved to the Prineville area to be close to the son during his time at the boarding school.  Or did they have frequent visits w/their son?

I agree our school system needs to provide a good/excellent education.  I just can't agree with T.A.'s parents enrolling T.A. in a private boarding school first then followed by the parents hiring a lawyer in order to get reimbursed for their decision.

Again, sure am glad I'm not a judge . . . 
 
Allen Warren


________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:06:46 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District before the Supremes . . .

Here's one of the first takes on the School District and special ed before the US Supreme Court - 


________________________________


High Court Justices Weigh Funding for Special Education
Tony Mauro
04-29-2009

The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday waded into the contentious debate that takes place in public schools every day between parents seeking special education services for their children and school administrators who are trying to contain costs. 
As is often the case, Justice Anthony Kennedy appeared to hold the key vote in deciding Forest Grove School District v. T.A., No. 08-305, and his comments at the argument were difficult to interpret as favoring one side or the other.
At issue is whether parents must first try out the special ed program offered by the public school before they can move their child to a private school program and seek reimbursement for the tuition.
Justices seemed at turns sympathetic with parents who "can't wait years" to find the best program for their children, as Justice David H. Souter put it, and with school systems that merely require that a public school be given a chance to devise a program for the child before having to make costly reimbursements for private programs. "All they're saying is, 'give it a try,' " said Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. at one point.
In the case before the Court today, a student identified only as T.A., now 23, was a public school student in Oregon. In spite of difficulties in school, he never used special education services. School officials evaluated him and suspected he had Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, but concluded he was not eligible for special ed.
After he experienced more serious problems and began using marijuana in 2003, T.A.'s parents took him out of the public high school and enrolled him in a residential private school where tuition was $5,200 a month. His family sought reimbursement from the school district.
At the district court level, a judge ruled that because T.A. had not used special ed services at the public school first, the statute did not allow reimbursement for the private school tuition.
But the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reversed, ruling that T.A. was eligible for reimbursement, in part because the public school did not offer a special ed program to him in the first place. In that circumstance, the appeals panel said "principles of equity" require that the private school tuition be paid by the public school district.
Gary Feinerman, a partner in Sidley Austin's Chicago office who argued for the Forest Grove school district in Oregon, said the language of the statute was clear that the public school program must be tried first.
But several justices suggested that rule did not seem fair if the school system, as it did with T.A., does not find the student eligible for a special ed program.
Feinerman said that under appeals processes that are in place, students in that circumstance would be offered a program on a "very tight turnaround." In fact when an administrative hearing officer in T.A.'s case found that he was entitled to special ed services at the public school, a plan was quickly devised.
David Salmons, a partner in Bingham McCutchen's Washington office who argued on behalf of the student, said students should not be penalized by a school's "wrong eligibility determinations" denying special ed services and forced to pay tuition reimbursements.
But Roberts seemed sympathetic to the schools when he said, "It's a big expense you are asking the school district to incur. ... All they are saying is 'give it a try for 10 days.' "
Assistant to the Solicitor General Eric Miller, arguing on the side of the student, said that if schools are able to deny private school reimbursement by refusing special ed services in the first place, it would "effectively be an incentive for districts to stonewall."
Tuesday's case represents the third time school districts have sought relief from the high court for what schools fear would be a sharp increase in costs for special education services. The National School Boards Association in a brief to the court said those costs "vastly exceed" the federal funding they receive under the Individuals With Disabilities Education Act.
In 2007, Board of Education of City School Dist. of City of New York v. Tom F., 128 S. Ct. 1, raising the same issue as the case Tuesday, was docketed, briefed and argued. But shortly before the arguments, Kennedy announced without explanation that he was recusing himself from the case. A week after the case was argued, the Court affirmed the lower court ruling in favor of the student by a 4-4 vote, making it clear that Kennedy's absence from the case was key to the outcome.
Later that term, Kennedy recused in Board of Educ. of Hyde Park v. Frank G., 128 S. Ct. 436, which also raised the same issue, and the Court denied review before the case was fully briefed or argued.
Both cases were from the New York City area, where some of Kennedy's children and grandchildren live, leading to unconfirmed speculation that Kennedy recused because of some family connection to special education services.
 Copyright 2009. Incisive Media US Properties, LLC. All rights reserved.


      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Apr 29 21:47:51 2009
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:47:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Education Week: High Court Hears Special Education
	Case
In-Reply-To: <49F89DBC.4090701@jurislex.com>
References: <49F89DBC.4090701@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <C95E3196-F5E7-4CF7-AC83-8D3FD0FC7292@verizon.net>

I can relate to the parents on this one.

We had a child in the school district and we got the run around.  The  
child wasn't eligible because they were too smart even though they  
were failing their classes.  ADHD wasn't a qualifying special needs  
condition.  The child qualified for an IEP but none was provided.   
The IEP was provided but the teacher wasn't following it.  And  
finally, one High School teacher wasn't going to allow the child to  
pass their senior class (and graduate) even though all work was  
submitted and with a C or better average.

Some times it is just difficult to fight the powers in place.  It is  
worth it, because the child is valuable, and there ARE people in the  
district who truly care even when others may not.  I support the  
determination that, if a special education program is appropriate,  
then it needs to be offered and implemented for the student, or the  
education professionals must allow the student to obtain the  
necessary education from alternative sources.

We could have had a much better experience, if the district ( under  
Superintendent Irv Nikolai ) had been run in a competent and  
accountable manner.

David Morelli


On Apr 29, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> And here's a slightly different perspective -
>
> http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2009/04/28/31scotus.h28.html? 
> tkn=LLLFmXXn7KHbcXJOGXAN5eIXK8FRSvz24lWf&print=1
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dl7ya7
>
> bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From theresacus at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 30 14:18:57 2009
From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] School District Supreme Court Case
Message-ID: <125141.20691.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I know how difficult it is to get a solid education for your kids in either a public or private school systems.? I have had mine in both and find that the public schools were actually better for my oldest son than a private school.? I have had my own run in's with the school district regarding him as well.?(Irv Nickoli)? ?They do not like it when you tell them that Oregon State Law requires that you teach to a child's full potential.? I know that isn't too descriptive but when you have brainiac kids who are bored, you know that they come up with some outlandishly crazy fun, to alleviate the boredom.? Distrupting class seems to be the one of choice.? I have tried to guide my own kids because I could see where the problem comes in from the educators point of view too.? Too many kids in a classroom.? There are some teachers even then who can handle even those situations...? I have to say Harah for Eric Larsen because he could give that individual
 attention in his class.? I was so appreciative of the honors and AP courses that were implemented for?my second son.? Even then, he found that the system was designed?for adolescents and not young adults.? ?? 
?
My new question is:? Can the parents who have honors students at NAMS do the same thing since their educational needs are not being met by the school districts decision to drop the honors classes?
?
Theresa Carter
?
?

?

?


      

From kb-ent at comcast.net  Thu Apr 30 20:33:21 2009
From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:33:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Schools...
Message-ID: <49FA6D81.4050005@comcast.net>

It is not often I feel the need to add my 2cents change to the 
discussion but for many years I have done battle with school districts 
over my children's educational needs. From Tehachapi, CA, Beaverton, to 
Forest Grove I have had to battle with them to even come close to 
getting them the education they need let alone the one that would do 
them the most good.

My oldest has ADHD and in the second grade they were threatening to kick 
him out unless he was medicated. Before they had time released Ritalin 
he needed to take a pill at lunch time and they _refused_ to remind him 
to go to the office for it (a child that is coming down off his meds 
that distraction and remembering is his hardest thing to do), so 
everyday I would have to be there to give it to him so they didn't kick 
him out of school. ARRRGGG...

My middle child had ADD and was accused of being silently defiant 
because she got bored and would daydream a lot.

My youngest has Aspergers which is a mild form of Autism. His learning 
disability was the written word so he was put in the Special Ed program 
here and was never expected to do more than remedial work. They offered 
him a modified diploma because the work that it would take to get a real 
one was about 2 years ahead of where they had him and he felt like they 
had kept him in the dark about it.

All three of my children were well qualified intellectually for any of 
the talented and gifted programs but due to their behavior problems 
(bored out of their minds by not being intellectually challenged) they 
were not allowed to participate. How's that for a Catch 22...

Over many years I have done battle with several school districts with 
about as many successes as not, and the last six years of it as a single 
dad I might add. Dealing with my own ADD and the years of raising kids 
gives me a unique perspective. Anyone have any questions I am more than 
willing to share what I do know and my opinion.

Keith

From kb-ent at comcast.net  Thu Apr 30 21:01:02 2009
From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:01:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Schools
Message-ID: <49FA73FE.2040803@comcast.net>

Pardon my own ADD, I forgot to tell you the ending of my story.

All three ended up dropping out of Forest Grove District because they 
were so frustrated with the school system.
The oldest, my stepson, is 26 and living in CA with his mom and still 
has not got a job as far as I know.
The middle, my daughter, is 22 and still living with me, is engaged, has 
a job, pays her bills and is doing OK.
The youngest, my son, is 20 and is enrolled in Job Corp. Hasn't decided 
whether to go for welding or construction yet.

It angers me that with a little more cooperation from the schools they 
might have had a little better start in life. Oh well, at this point we 
have to deal with what is, not what might have been...

From Jamsm at aol.com  Thu Apr 30 22:38:15 2009
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 01:38:15 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Education Week: High Court Hears Special Education
	Case
Message-ID: <c18.54a5a684.372be4c7@aol.com>


 
I have to agree that the schools in Oregon have a long way to  go.

While we lived in FG we were at constant odds with the school  system. 
My son was diagnosed with Autism (high functioning)/ Aspergers (AS)  at a 
very young age.
Needless to say we were constantly at odds over my  son's education needs.
They wanted to  focus on his 'social issues' only. They had no  desire to 
challenge him or address is educational needs.  As long as he did  not 
disturb the class, he was allowed to come and go from the classes as he  desired 
or quietly wonder around the classrooms.
 
[He just came to me and stated that he wants to learn to write cursively!  
Yea! ]
 
After what essentially was fighting with the school system, we pulled him  
from school near the end of the 4th grade (we had learned that this teacher  
had been repeatedly sending my son into the back of the classroom behind a  
partition out of sight and out of mind many times throughout the year, all 
the  while claiming everything was fine) and home schooled him for a year.  
At  that time, I had started to look into where to move to.  Yes, we "ran"  
to get away from the trash in Oregon. (Now all you  
liberals/progressives/socialists will start making personal attacks on  me.) 

Oregon has a history of spending millions to prevent their having to give  
appropriate placement and assistance to special ed students out of fear that 
if  they give one student 'X' then all the other special ed students will 
want  'X'.  Most parents are reasonable and only want their children to get  
an education respective of their childrens' abilities.  The  school system 
in Oregon wants to provide the  minimum they are  required to give to those 
that are 'different.'  They do not see the  capabilities of many (including 
'normal' kids) and believe they 'know' more than  the parents as to what a 
child can learn. We just want to get our  sons/daughters a proper education 
within their ability.  The school  system wants to put all their efforts and 
money toward the so called 'normal'  students and their sports!  If my son 
did not have autism or AS, I am quite  sure they would have bent over 
backwards to challenge him in his  studies.   
 
While in Oregon, my son was getting straight A's; but that does not  mean 
he was getting a proper education.   So many times we would go to  a parent 
teacher conference and all the other students would have this huge pile  of 
things that they had completed on their desks.  While on my  son's desk, 
there would be just a few sheets of paper, essentially a fraction of  what the 
other students would have.   Where was my son's work?  I  would never get an 
answer other than - "Oh, he is doing just fine!"   What we figured out what 
that really meant was that he was not disturbing  the class.
 
After selling our home in FG, we moved to the Beaverton area.  There,  the 
school system was talking about having my son skip 3 grade levels and put  
him in his Sophomore year!  We found that they were attempting to give my  
son a 'modified' diploma.  This type diploma is a special education diploma  
that is below the standard of a regular diploma.  Today, he is working on a  
advanced placement diploma in a east coast state!
 
Since moving to this new school district  - out of Oregon - my son has  
actually started to learn how to 'study'.  He has started to learn what  home 
work is.   His grades - mostly A's - has picked up some B's  because he 
failed to get some of the more involved projects completed. Oh, the  teachers 
here actually expect him to complete his work! YES!
 
Are Oregon schools good. NO!  Never have been, even when I was in  school.  
I moved to Oregon in the 8th grade (giving my age away - that was  back in 
'65.)  After just a few short weeks, the teacher started using  me as a 
teacher's aide.   I was administrating several subjects for a  select group of 
my fellow classmates.  Gave them instruction, assignments,  graded the 
assignments and administered and graded the tests.   This group was the 'normal' 
8th graders of my class.  I will give  that teacher credit in that he was 
attempting to spend his time with about half  the class that were very far 
below the grade level education that they should  have had.   Some did not even 
know how to add or subtract!   This low performing group had been 'passed 
forward' for years with their  never having learned the material.
 
So much for my rant.

Y'all have a nice day  now!

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From Jamsm at aol.com  Thu Apr 30 23:24:19 2009
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 02:24:19 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Schools
Message-ID: <cb0.3fa57198.372bef93@aol.com>

Keith:
You have experienced more than I have in this mess that the schools  have.  
I know I have made mistakes with my son's education.  One  being, I did not 
have my son challenge the K, 1st and possibly 2nd grade  levels.  He 
probably should have been placed in 2nd grade when he started  kindergarten.

The school system did not acknowledge his reading and other  abilities 
until he was in the 2nd grade.
He never did completely  finish the reading placement tests.  In 2nd grade 
they placed his  reading ability at least grade 8.  In the 3rd grade they 
retested him,  again not finishing the tests, but ranked him at reading at 10 
grade reading  level.

In 3rd grade, they also found him to be academically approved  for TAG.  
They would not let him in the TAG program due to his 'immaturity'  and social 
issues.  [In my opinion, many of the social issues that were  occurring were 
being generated by the teachers and or the schools lack of  addressing  
bullying by others.]  So they claimed they were  placing the emphases on his 
social skills but at the same time would allow the  teasing and harassment by 
other students to continue.  Sometimes, the  teasing ('bullying') was 
performed by the teachers.


And I agree about the teachers not following the IEP.  In  Oregon, the IEP 
was a document that I had the impression that the only person at  the school 
that actually tried to abide by it was the special ed.  administrator.  The 
teachers may be aware that it existed but could have  cared less about what 
was in it.  They were not going to change their  teaching methods to 
accommodate anyone.  An example:  We would have a  statement in the IEP  that our 
son was to be seated near the teacher.   But in actuality, he would be 
seated in the rear of the class at the farthest  point from where the teacher is. 
(This one actually  occurred  in his 4th grade.)

I just hope that I have made the right choice in moving out East.   So far, 
it does look much better for my son.

Here, they actually address the bullying issues and do something  about it 
when we report it.
 

I pray that your children make advances and find a good life  ahead.
James

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