[Grovenet] That's one big flag
Steve Jerrett
stevedj at teleport.com
Fri Apr 24 14:04:26 PDT 2009
Holly wrote:
"I know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many
will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and
not at all proud about my community "
How sad for you that you are embarrassed because there are others in your
community that think and feel differently than you. It seems that a person
that professes to "celebrate diversity" would be proud to live an co-exist
with those with differing viewpoints.
I'm sure that many residents of San Francisco are embarrased and ashamed of
the large gay community there. I'm sure that many straights feel that
homosexuality is being "ramrodded" there. I can imagine the same
conversation played out by an embarrased and apologetic resident having to
explain the huge "gay pride" parade passing by his house. It goes both ways.
"Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far
better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring
positive change to my community and to my country"
Please keep in mind that what is positive to you may be negative to others,
and vice-versa and that many people of all persuaions work hard to bring
about change. Many do it with humility. You may be surprised to find out
that many folks you chastise do a lot of positive things for society, even
by your standards, but behind the scenes. Who knows, maybe the flag donors
are even more magnanimous toward society than you?
My major point of conteneion with your original rant is that make
assumptions, manifested by divisive labeling, that put you in the same
category as those you so vehemently oppose.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
> Hi Steve,
>
> I believe that such a huge flag, in particular, portrays our fine city as
> one whose residents are largely conservative in their political viewpoints
> because of the flag-waving tendencies of the conservative right and all
> the damage they have done to our country over the past eight years. I, for
> one, am not proud of the direction my country has taken during the past
> eight years and I'm not ashamed to say so. We went to war with the wrong
> enemy for the wrong reasons. We allowed that war and the incompetent
> economic programs of the Bush Administration to take our economy down to
> the lowest level and with the highest deficit of my lifetime. I don't
> think our country is in a very good position right now to celebrate our
> nationalism by waving a giant flag that shouts, "I'm proud to be an
> American, the home of the free and the brave!"
>
> I believe our country has come very close to economic collapse largely due
> to the very flag-waving, conservative, militaristic influences in this
> country. Had our government put more energy into creating jobs, stopping
> outsourcing of jobs to other countries, preserving our environment, and
> not engaging in a war with the wrong enemy because Dubya and Cheney wanted
> to increase their oil profits, then we might have greater cause for
> national pride.
>
> Though I resent this monstrous flag, I believe I am a patriot in a far
> better sense of the word. I will and do roll up my sleeves to help bring
> positive change to my community and to my country. I think that's what
> needs to be done by people and not a bunch of grotesque flag waving. For
> me, erecting such a huge flag is just throwing up a giant smoke screen
> that says, "My country right or wrong" and "God bless America!" when we
> have important and hard work to do to bring our country back to a place
> where we can be proud of it again.
>
> I also believe that blind nationalism--the kind I observe from people who
> tend to be flag-wavers--can be very dangerous. Just look what happened in
> Nazi Germany with respect to blind nationalism. Blind nationalism, too
> often, makes people oblivious to and even hostile toward diversity. Most
> of the conservative flag-wavers I have observed are not exactly supportive
> of diversity.
>
> Plus, during the Bush Administration, it seemed there was a direct attempt
> on the part of our government to "dumb down" the populace. To raise issues
> like the importance of being patriotic and waving flags and supporting out
> troops rather than involving people in helping to solve real issues like
> homelessness, jobs creation, and environmental preservation.
>
> I think the size of this humongous flag is largely what angers me. I don't
> think I would be nearly so outraged were it as small, say, as the one
> flying outside the Elk's Lodge about a block away. It's just way out of
> proportion for the size of our town and for its location. It seems to
> scream NATIONALISM in all its ugly shades to me. It's like someone is
> trying to force something down my throat. I resent it. Hugely.
>
> I believe if you brought a busload of gays to Forest Grove on a sunny day
> when this giant flag was waving in all its grotesque "glory", most of them
> would feel very uncomfortable once they saw it. They would feel like they
> were entering some very unfriendly territory. A town in which
> conservatives rule and where they would not be welcome. I know I would
> feel this way if I were gay. I'd also feel the same way if I were an
> immigrant from Mexico or any other country. I wouldn't have the same
> reaction if the flag were the size of the one in front of the Elk's Lodge.
> It's the VOLUME of the message that seems to SCREAM at you that I'm
> concerned about, not the message itself.
>
> I know when my friends come to visit me, whether gay or straight, many
> will be asking me, "What's with the huge flag?!" I will be embarrassed and
> not at all proud about my community when I have to answer them. I will
> have to tell them that this was an unilateral decision that was ramrodded
> down the throats of Forest Grove residents by the City Council without
> adequate citizen input. I will have to tell them how ironic it is that
> there are often homeless people standing around less than a block away
> from this $20,000 expenditure by the city. I will have to tell them how
> angry I am about it.
>
> I don't believe it's me who is intolerant here, Steve. Intolerance is what
> I fear will happen if this monstrous symbol has the effect of attracting
> more conservatives to our community. I know that as a progressive
> Democrat, if I were exploring the possibility of moving to Forest Grove, I
> would think twice about my decision to move here if I saw this flag as I
> drove into town. This grotesque symbol could tip the balance and take our
> community in a dangerous and backward political direction that I wouldn't
> like to see.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:49:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Holly,
>
>
> When did the U.S. flag become a pro-war, anti choice, anti-gay, anti women
> etc. symbol? Why do you see this flag as an icon of everything you see as
> negative about our country ?
>
> Why don't you see it as representative of everyone-gays, straights,
> homeless, wealthy, etc., etc.. Why doesn't it illicit a feeling of pride
> in
> the fact that we have the freedoms of opinion, religion, sexual
> orientation,
> etc. that make us such a unique civilization. Why do you feel that it
> doesn't also represent YOUR Forest Grove? Don't you feel the least bit
> apprehensive in being so audaciosly prejudicial in your assumptions about
> the "anonymous family" regardless of your rhetorically postured approach?
> Why do you feel the need to chastise and belittle those that differ in
> opinion as "tasteless or unprogressive?"
>
> I find your level of intolerance disturbingly ironic.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates,
> "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because of
> this
> monstrous display of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives through
> Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant flag, will think
> that
> our community is overrun by redneck Republicans who are pro-war,
> anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against spending tax dollars to
> help
> people and the environment. That's not MY Forest Grove and I resent my
> city
> being portrayed in this tasteless, conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see all
> those homeless people standing around less than a block away from this
> monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How many of
> them
> could be fed for a very, very long time for what that monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you spend
> helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you do for your
> community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've illegally and
> immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong enemy, and how
> many
> forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism. I thought we got past
> all
> that ridiculous flag waving and conservative leanings when Dubya was
> finally
> booted out at long last and Obama was sworn in. I thought there was a
> rebirth in this country. A rebirth whereby people would do their best to
> rebuild our nation, to undo the horrific damage done by the Bush
> Administration, and to help each other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up their
> sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
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