[Grovenet] That's one big flag

Fri Apr 24 17:21:49 PDT 2009

Steve,

I believe that you have misunderstood me.  When I said the radical 
right had "co-opted" the flag, I was referring to the situation 
displayed by Holly's reaction - It's a flag, it must mean right-wing 
conservatives.  I was, in fact, expressing what I believe you are 
expressing - It's a flag, it's a symbol of our country, period.

I don't understand how recognition of the fact that some people feel 
that display of our country's flag indicates a particular (right wing) 
political viewpoint is an indication that I "foster and adversarial, 
intolerant position."  However, you are free to think whatever you like 
about me.  I don't recall that we have met, so I can't think of a 
reason why I should be concerned about your opinion of me (and it is, 
afterall, a free country).  Pointless name calling of this kind is why 
I don't spend much time on Grovenet.

I certainly agree that  "it is one of our unique strengths as a society 
  that even patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis."  As 
far as I can tell, I agree with most of what you have said (your 
opinion of me excluded).  So you would probably have better luck trying 
to pick a fight elsewhere.

Jane B-P

Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

Jane,

I am truly curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that 
the
radical right has "co-opted" the flag.

It is obvious the flag stirs differing emotions in everyone. The flag 
is an
icon for our country, and our country's strengths and weaknesses are a
matter of individual interpretation. I don't feel threatened if others 
see
the flag as symbolic of a differing philosophy. The fact that you see a
difference of opinion as "co-opting" indicates to me that you foster 
and
adversarial, intolerant position.

I feel that it is one of our unique strengths as a society  that even
patriotism can be manifested on an individual basis. Universal fear and
paranoia are natural human tendencies that usurp our ability to achieve 
a
functionally diverse and tolerant society.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacm at aol.com>
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag

> Very eloquent, Mike.  I have to agree that the founding fathers never
> realized what they were letting themselves in for when they said,
> "...all men are created equal."  It's a job that gets passed down to
> each new generation.
>
> I also have to ask, how did the radical right co-opt my country's 
flag?
>  No one has ever mentioned anything to me about not pledging the flag
> when everyone else does at FG Chamber luncheons, but the reason is, as
> a Navy vet, I have taken a pledge that supercedes that one, to "defend
> the constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic."  I may
> not pledge to it anymore, but it is still my country's flag.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 8:23 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I'm in none of the categories mentioned below by Holly, but it still
> spoke to me.  Geri and I were at the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor
> last summer.  This was a very difficult visit for us; my Dad was in 
the
> Navy for 30 years, 1926-1956, and was stationed there when the attack
> hit.  I grew up hearing his stories about that fateful day. Our visit
> to the Arizona was overwhelming.
>
> My Dad and I took very different paths in
> life, but he was always
> supportive of me and I am eternally grateful to him for that 
thoughtful
> understanding and loving support.  Because of his military career and
> the numerous times he deployed for naval warfare, he had a keen
> understanding of the demands.  He knew b.s. when he heard it and he
> never backed down; he knew that young lives were being put in harm's
> way...he totally mistrusted those who commanded those young lives.  He
> taught me a healthy disrespect for authority figures.
>
> Much of this came back to me driving by the flag, oversized or not.
> Perhaps I had mixed feelings...but I do know that the flag that spoke
> to me then represents a country not only that is and has been, but 
what
> it could be--and that project is unfinished, so important hopes and
> dreams remain to be fulfilled.
>
> Peace,
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] 
On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> I agree, Walt. I will not mince words. The thing is hideously 
grotesque
> IMHO. Betsy Ross must be turning over in her grave.
>
> As Tom Robbins said in his novel, Fierce Invalids Home from Hot
> Climates, "The more advertising I see, the less I want to buy."
>
> I feel frightfully embarrassed to be a Forest Grove resident because 
of
> this monstrous dis
> play of "patriotism". I fear that anyone who drives
> through Forest Grove, upon being blindsighted by this abhorant
> flag, will think that our community is overrun by redneck Republicans
> who are pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-women, and against
> spending tax dollars to help people and the environment. That's not MY
> Forest Grove and I resent my city being portrayed in this tasteless,
> conservative, unprogressive manner.
>
> The next time I pass the bus stop between Safeway and Goodwill and see
> all those homeless people standing around less than a block away from
> this monstrous flag, I will not be able to keep from wondering, "How
> many of them could be fed for a very, very long time for what that
> monstrosity cost?"
>
> For me, the mark of a true patriot is how much time and energy you
> spend helping your fellow citizens. It's all about how much good you 
do
> for your community. Not how big your flag is, how many wars you've
> illegally and immorally and imperialistically waged against the wrong
> enemy, and how many forests you've cut down in the name of capitalism.
> I thought we got past all that ridiculous flag waving and conservative
> leanings when Dubya was finally booted out at long last and Obama was
> sworn in. I thought there was a rebirth in this country. A rebirth
> whereby people would do their best to rebuild our nation, to undo the
> horrific damage done by the Bush Administration, and to help each 0D
> other.
>
> I wonder how much money this "anonymous family" who donated this crass
> monstrosity gave to charities this year. How much did they roll up
> their sleeves to help those less fortunate than themselves? I wonder.
>
> Holly Tsur
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:32:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>
> Not to be "unpatriotic" or anything, but it strikes me as somewhat
> like the burger-joint-chain gimmick of a few years ago-- when local
> sign codes limited the size of their signs, they just flew humungous
> American flags to attract attention to themselves.
> It is astonishing, even a bit overwhelming.
> Walt
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> Bigger is better? One better than the Jones'? "Because we
>> can!"? :-)
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>> Is there a good explanation for why there is a humongous flag?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local in
> terests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] That's one big flag
>>
>>
>> No chuck, Chuck!! Any flag you can see from one end of town to
>> the other
>> is one humongous flag!! I wonder how long until the City has no
>> money to buy
>> the replacement flag when this one is all tattered in about 12 to 14
>> months?? Or, maybe the Mayor is going to come up with the
>> additional funds
>> needed??
>>
>> bob
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> chuck wrote:
>> Saw the flag yesterday as I was leaving town for work.
>>
>> That's - um - one - HUGE - flag.
>>
>> Wow.------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
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