From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 1 12:03:45 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:03:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist By Charles M. Blow A day after Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal?s widely ripped Howdy Doody-meets-Mister Rogers response to President Obama?s address, Max Blumenthal piled it on with an interesting article on The Daily Beast reiterating some things not widely known about the ?Bayou?s boy wonder.? One of the most interesting facts in the piece, titled ?Bobby Jindal?s Secret Past,? was that Jindal said he witnessed, and then haltingly participated in, the exorcism of his very close friend (a woman named Susan) when he was in college. (It should be noted that other bloggers have been making hay of this fact for a while.) In 1994 Jindal penned a piece for the New Oxford Review, under the title ?Beating a Demon: Physical Dimensions of Spiritual Warfare,? in which he recounted what happened. The account is straight out of the movies. According to Jindal, Susan was a ?charismatic Christian.? She had recently been diagnosed with cancer. Weeks before the diagnosis, one of her ?closest friends from home? had committed suicide. She was hysterical and erratic (I wonder why), and started having ?visions? and smelling like sulfur ?which supposedly accompanies the devil.? Everything came to a head at a prayer meeting organized for Susan. Here are some excerpts from Jindal?s article: ?Suddenly, Susan emitted some strange guttural sounds and fell to the floor. She started thrashing about, as if in some sort of seizure. Susan?s sister must have recognized what was happening, for she ordered us to gather around and place our hands on Susan?s prostrate body.? ?I tentatively ap proached the group and placed the edge of my finger tip on her shoulder ? In a voice I had never heard before or since, Su san accused me: ?Bobby, you cannot even love Susan.? ?The students, led by Susan?s sister and Louise, a member of a charismatic church, engaged in loud and desperate prayers while holding Susan with one hand. Kneeling on the ground, my friends were chanting, ?Satan, I command you to leave this woman.? Others exhorted all ?demons to leave in the name of Christ.?? ?Whenever I concentrated long enough to begin prayer, I felt some type of physical force distracting me. It was as if something was pushing down on my chest, making it very hard for me to breathe. Being a biology major at the time, I greeted this feeling with skepticism and rational explanations. I checked my pulse for signs of nervousness and wondered what could cause such a sensation. Shortness of breath is a common symptom that can mean very little or may signal the onslaught of a fatal stroke. Though I could find no cause for my chest pains, I was very scared of what was happening to me and Susan. I began to think that the demon would only attack me if I tried to pray or fight back; thus, I resigned myself to leav ing it alone in an attempt to find peace for myself.? ?? the students dared Susan to read biblical passages. She choked on certain passages and could not finish the sentence ?Jesus is Lord.? Over and over, she repeated ?Jesus is L..L..LL,? often ending in profanities.? ?Just as suddenly as she went into the trance, Susan suddenly reappeared and claimed ?Jesus is Lord.? With an almost comical smile, Susan then looked up as if awakening from a deep sleep and asked, ?Has something happened??? Wow. That?s incredible. But is it politically problematic? This came up to some degree in his race for governor, but it didn?t appear to raise many eyebrows. Then again, the election was in Louisiana, a state steeped in voodoo and hoodoo customs and full of charismatic Christians and religious hysterics. (Case in point, months before Jindal?s article was published, two sisters from Arcadia, La., went on trial for gouging out the eyes of a third sister in an apparent attempt to rid her of a demon.) The state also has a sizable Catholic population, and the church openly embraces the idea of exorcisms. But how well would Jindal?s exorcism experience be received elsewhere should he consider a national bid? Probably not as badly as some might suspect. Judging by the number of Americans who believe in the devil and demonic possession, it might turn out to be a positive in heavily religious areas, helping Jindal become more relatable to like-minded voters. According to The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life?s 2008 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, nearly 70 percent of Americans believe that ?Angels and demons are active in the world,? and nearly 80 percent believe that ?miracles still occur today as in ancient times.? From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 12:26:36 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 12:26:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What a person believes or doubts is important to their decision making process. I would rather judge his actions in the political realm than whether he was present or absent from a college event. If Jindal believes that he has experienced spiritual activity, he is not alone in the world. How does his philosophical/theological experience influence his political actions? Does he have a grasp on fiscal reality? If you wish to worry about "voodo", worry about the "voodo economics" of the Ronald Reagan - George Reagan politics. David On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 13:00:03 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:00:03 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <649D098E-A56F-4C83-ACD2-8C8A6DEBB1F8@verizon.net> Speaking of exorcising demons and politics.... It was funny to listen to the reports coming out of the Conservative Political Action Committee Convention last week. The new phrase to cleanse the souls of the republican party has two goals: One to discredit Bush along with past deficits and second to link all deficits to the new administration. So be on the look out for the new monikers "Bush-Obama spending" and "Bush-Obama deficits". They are running as fast as they can from the past 8 years. Katie On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > What a person believes or doubts is important to their decision > making process. > > I would rather judge his actions in the political realm than whether > he was present or absent from a college event. If Jindal believes > that he has experienced spiritual activity, he is not alone in the > world. How does his philosophical/theological experience influence > his political actions? > > Does he have a grasp on fiscal reality? If you wish to worry about > "voodo", worry about the "voodo economics" of the Ronald Reagan - > George Reagan politics. > > David > > > On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 1 14:10:44 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:10:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: True, David! If 70 percent of Americans actually do believe angels and demons are mucking about in the real world, and base their political decisions at least partly on that belief, what does that imply for our future vis-a-vis the Europeans, who I believe are considerably less "spiritual?" At the time when 70 percent of Americans believed that slavery was not only legal, but morally justified, what did that imply for our future, when most of the civilized world was discarding the concept? On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > What a person believes or doubts is important to their decision > making process. > > I would rather judge his actions in the political realm than whether > he was present or absent from a college event. If Jindal believes > that he has experienced spiritual activity, he is not alone in the > world. How does his philosophical/theological experience influence > his political actions? > > Does he have a grasp on fiscal reality? If you wish to worry about > "voodo", worry about the "voodo economics" of the Ronald Reagan - > George Reagan politics. > > David > > > On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 18:35:11 2009 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 18:35:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: <649D098E-A56F-4C83-ACD2-8C8A6DEBB1F8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <996285.9813.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Well, Katie, of course you're right, but?I remember listening to Lars Larson on November 5 calling it the "Obama recession". --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Katie Allnutt wrote: From: Katie Allnutt Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 9:00 PM Speaking of exorcising demons and politics.... It was funny to listen to the reports coming out of the Conservative Political Action Committee Convention last week. The new phrase to cleanse the souls of the republican party has two goals: One to discredit Bush along with past deficits and second to link all deficits to the new administration. So be on the look out for the new monikers "Bush-Obama spending" and "Bush-Obama deficits". They are running as fast as they can from the past 8 years. Katie On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > What a person believes or doubts is important to their decision > making process. > > I would rather judge his actions in the political realm than whether > he was present or absent from a college event. If Jindal believes > that he has experienced spiritual activity, he is not alone in the > world. How does his philosophical/theological experience influence > his political actions? > > Does he have a grasp on fiscal reality? If you wish to worry about > "voodo", worry about the "voodo economics" of the Ronald Reagan - > George Reagan politics. > > David > > > On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 19:44:59 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:44:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: <996285.9813.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <996285.9813.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5E058231-64DD-4EF1-B571-D69BBE044A80@verizon.net> I don't have the time to listen to him. If that is typical commentary, then it speaks eloquently about his "intellectual honesty" and his general knowledge level. David On Mar 1, 2009, at 6:35 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > Well, Katie, of course you're right, but I remember listening to > Lars Larson on November 5 calling it the "Obama recession". From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 19:52:37 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:52:37 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: <649D098E-A56F-4C83-ACD2-8C8A6DEBB1F8@verizon.net> References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <649D098E-A56F-4C83-ACD2-8C8A6DEBB1F8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <72D4231F-FEB4-4A44-B82B-D355CB3AE115@verizon.net> "because false messiahs and false prophets will appear and display great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." Well, we know who is trying to deceive the "elect". And the liberals are not the "elect". David On Mar 1, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Speaking of exorcising demons and politics.... > It was funny to listen to the reports coming out of the > Conservative Political Action Committee Convention last week. > The new phrase to cleanse the souls of the republican party has > two goals: > One to discredit Bush along with past deficits and second to link > all deficits to the new administration. > So be on the look out for the new monikers "Bush-Obama spending" > and "Bush-Obama deficits". > > They are running as fast as they can from the past 8 years. > > Katie From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 23:40:49 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 23:40:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... In-Reply-To: <996285.9813.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <996285.9813.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amazing. No doubt Lars meant that with all due respect for the office. Katie On Mar 1, 2009, at 6:35 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > Well, Katie, of course you're right, but I remember listening to > Lars Larson on November 5 calling it the "Obama recession". > > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > From: Katie Allnutt > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Not only magic thinking... > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 9:00 PM > > Speaking of exorcising demons and politics.... > It was funny to listen to the reports coming out of the Conservative > Political Action Committee Convention last week. > The new phrase to cleanse the souls of the republican party has two > goals: > One to discredit Bush along with past deficits and second to link all > deficits to the new administration. > So be on the look out for the new monikers "Bush-Obama spending" and > > "Bush-Obama deficits". > > They are running as fast as they can from the past 8 years. > > Katie > > On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> What a person believes or doubts is important to their decision >> making process. >> >> I would rather judge his actions in the political realm than whether >> he was present or absent from a college event. If Jindal believes >> that he has experienced spiritual activity, he is not alone in the >> world. How does his philosophical/theological experience influence >> his political actions? >> >> Does he have a grasp on fiscal reality? If you wish to worry about >> "voodo", worry about the "voodo economics" of the > Ronald Reagan - >> George Reagan politics. >> >> David >> >> >> On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Bobby Jindal, the Exorcist >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 10:26:21 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:26:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Gender/Sexuality programs at Pacific: 3/4, 3/11, 3/18! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <792523.78028.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Pacific University?s Center for Gender Equity in partnership with the Gender and Sexuality Studies program presents? QUEERING GENDER AND SEXUALITY 1) A PERSONAL STORY OF TRANSITION Singer Alexander James Adams, Faerie Tale Minstrel of the Heatherlands shares his personal story of transition entitled: "When Fantasy Meets Reality--Living Your Dream." Our first speaker has undergone ?sex change? surgery,? and he plans to discuss and document with photos the physiological process. Before his change he was a locally famous woman singer, and now he is just as well known in his new body. Date: Wednesday, March 4 Time: 7:00 -8:00 Place: Jefferson 223 Pacific University, Forest Grove (see www.pacificu.edu for directions) 2) CHALLENGE TO DARWIN'S THEORY OF SEX-SELECTION Dr. Joan Roughgarden from the Department of Biological Sciences at Stanford University Date: Wednesday, March 11 Time: 7:00 -8:00 Place: Jefferson 223, Pacific University, Forest Grove (see www.pacificu.edu for directions) 3) GENDER VARIANT IMAGE, ITS AESTHETIC FORM AND THE KINDS OF QUEER HISTORIES THAT SUCH IMAGES TELL Dr. Judith Halberstam from the Department of English and Gender Studies at the University of Southern California. Date: Wednesday, March 18 Time: 7:00 -8:00 Place: Jefferson 223, Pacific University, Forest Grove (see www.pacificu.edu for directions) Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax: 503 352 3195 From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 3 16:06:44 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:06:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] So, who is screwing who ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090303/2b5dbd22/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 20:37:24 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:37:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Sing d'tune References: Message-ID: <9D12C2D8-0461-4EFB-ABBB-FA160DA81536@verizon.net> This is an old one, but it might bring a smile again. If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys deranged, models deposed, and dry cleaners depressed? Laundry workers could decrease, eventually becoming depressed and depleted! Even more, bedmakers will be debunked, baseball players will be debased, bulldozer operators will be degraded, organ donors will be delivered, software engineers will be detested, the BVD company will be debriefed, and even musical composers will eventually decompose. On a more positive note, though, perhaps we can hope politicians will be devoted. And those who put a signature at the bottom of an e-mail could be designed. David From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 22:41:38 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:41:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] So, who is screwing who ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> Message-ID: The quotation for Maurice Strong is interesting, but the accuracy of the quote cannot be confirmed by my research. Editor/reporter Daniel Wood is real, http://www.abcbookworld.com/ view_author.php?id=3232 West Magazine was in print at the referenced time, http:// www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/scott/kaisaris West Magazine out of print with no known internet archives, http:// www.annickpress.com/authors/ovenell-carter.asp?author=262 and http:// archives.starbulletin.com/2003/04/11/business/index2.html Would a concerned band of extremist capitalists "crash" the industrialized nations to preserve the earth? Maybe. Is it likely? I doubt it. If they did succeed in crashing the economies of the industrialized world, would it actually improve our environmental situation? Maybe, but I doubt it. War is a rolling environmental disaster, and war is a likely consequence of a global collapse. You don't improve the atmosphere by the fallout of bombs. You don't improve the quality of water by sinking shipping. You don't improve the ability of farmers to husband the soil by planting land mines or leaving unexploded ordinance lying around. David > Just a little light reading which should make you mad as hell ! ! ! > > http://www.nolanchart.com/article6087.html > > bob "nothing more" browning > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From scott.richardz at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 23:31:23 2009 From: scott.richardz at verizon.net (Scott Richards) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:31:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Sing d'tune In-Reply-To: <9D12C2D8-0461-4EFB-ABBB-FA160DA81536@verizon.net> References: <9D12C2D8-0461-4EFB-ABBB-FA160DA81536@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1236151883.8250.79.camel@Ginger> On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 20:37 -0800, David Morelli wrote: > This is an old one, but it might bring a smile again. Yes it is, and yes it did. Thank you David, Scott From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 4 08:04:26 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:04:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Sing d'tune In-Reply-To: <9D12C2D8-0461-4EFB-ABBB-FA160DA81536@verizon.net> References: <9D12C2D8-0461-4EFB-ABBB-FA160DA81536@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E5BC6FC-3701-4A75-952B-22DD041F983E@verizon.net> Are those who put their real John Hancock at the bottom intelligently designed? ; ) Katie On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:37 PM, David Morelli wrote: > This is an old one, but it might bring a smile again. > > If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow > that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys > deranged, models deposed, and dry cleaners depressed? > > Laundry workers could decrease, eventually becoming depressed and > depleted! > > Even more, bedmakers will be debunked, baseball players will be > debased, bulldozer operators will be degraded, organ donors will be > delivered, software engineers will be detested, the BVD company will > be debriefed, and even musical composers will eventually decompose. > > On a more positive note, though, perhaps we can hope politicians will > be devoted. > > And those who put a signature at the bottom of an e-mail could be > designed. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 4 08:09:59 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:09:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] So, who is screwing who ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Assuming the article in "West" actually appeared, and if so, that it was not made up of whole cloth, we are still required to make a leap of faith that might well split the trousers of the most athletic; namely, that Strong actually is a "secret agent" for a "secret cabal" of powerful industrialists and CEOs and bankers, operating secretly in the belly of the Davos Conference. We have only the author's word for this, cf. the old "everyone knows" authority of the typical conspirationist writer. If indeed this small cabal of secretive billionaire plotters are dedicated to betraying the interests of all their Davos conferees by destroying the economy of the industrialized world, they are in odd company; as the first part of the article illustrates, the primary concern of industrialists, CEOs, bankers, etc. is to amass more millions and billions to pile on top of their previous millions and billions. An industrial collapse, followed by hyperinflation, the devaluation of their hoarded billions and the inevitable social turmoil, would hardly advance the goals of your typical billionaire global mover and shaker. Corporate and individual greed is, by its very nature, competitive, short-sighted and self- centered. The concept of an environmentally-responsible, forward- thinking cabal of billionaires actually willing to cooperate in carrying out such a complex, Robert Heinlein-scale plot in the interests of the environment and humanity in general (that is, that portion of humanity which might survive the debacle), and in the process destroying their own hoarded wealth, seems a bit of a stretch-- and more likely a pure product of Mr. Gonzalez's fertile imagination. On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:41 PM, David Morelli wrote: > The quotation for Maurice Strong is interesting, but the accuracy of > the quote cannot be confirmed by my research. > > Editor/reporter Daniel Wood is real, http://www.abcbookworld.com/ > view_author.php?id=3232 > > West Magazine was in print at the referenced time, http:// > www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/scott/kaisaris > > West Magazine out of print with no known internet archives, http:// > www.annickpress.com/authors/ovenell-carter.asp?author=262 and http:// > archives.starbulletin.com/2003/04/11/business/index2.html > > Would a concerned band of extremist capitalists "crash" the > industrialized nations to preserve the earth? Maybe. Is it likely? > I doubt it. > > If they did succeed in crashing the economies of the industrialized > world, would it actually improve our environmental situation? Maybe, > but I doubt it. > > War is a rolling environmental disaster, and war is a likely > consequence of a global collapse. You don't improve the atmosphere > by the fallout of bombs. You don't improve the quality of water by > sinking shipping. You don't improve the ability of farmers to > husband the soil by planting land mines or leaving unexploded > ordinance lying around. > > > David > > > >> Just a little light reading which should make you mad as hell ! ! ! >> >> http://www.nolanchart.com/article6087.html >> >> bob "nothing more" browning >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 4 10:40:03 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:40:03 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Funny to everybody except Rushies, anyhow: http://www.dccc.org/content/sorry From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 4 10:54:42 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:54:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: Thanks Walt. Here is another funny story from Politico: If Congress can declare war it seems that some folks want congress (not the military) to declare victory as well. I guess now that military actions/wars are more political than ever it all makes sense for politician to define victory at the time that they feel it gives them the most advantage regardless of the facts on the ground. In my opininon, though the Republicans should have passed this resolution while Bush was still president if they really wanted him to get credit for it. Katie Mission Accomplished II? A group of 31 House Republicans have introduced a resolution "declaring victory in Iraq," which is bound to evoke images of "Mission Accomplished" and George W. Bush in a flight suit. The intention of the resolution isn't actually celebratory. It's intended to set a political trap by declaring, six weeks into Obama's presidency, that all responsibility for the six-year conflict, which was initiated by President Bush on flawed evidence and incompetently pursued for much of his presidency, is now Obama's to lose. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), the prime sponsor, writes: By virtually every measure, thanks to his adoption of the surge strategy, President Bush left office having secured victory in Iraq. This victory, however, may be squandered if President Obama withdraws American forces too hastily. In an effort to avoid this, this resolution outlines the path that we have followed to victory and calls upon President Obama to maintain this hard-won victory. This resolution is intended to send an important message to President Obama ? that history will judge him harshly should he choose to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. As soon as President Obama took the oath of office, he assumed responsibility for Iraq. The notion that we have already achieved a "victory" in the conflict is disputed by most experts on the conflict, including Iraq Ambassador Ryan Crocker who recently told author Thomas Ricks, "The events for which the Iraq War will be remembered probably have not yet happened ..." The co-sponsors: Franks, Pence, Burgess, Joe Wilson, Kline, McCotter, Cole, Gohmert, Mike Rogers (AL), Carter, Hensarling, Jeff Miller, Sam Johnson, Shadegg, Pitts, Schmidt, Gingrey, Brady, Westmoreland, Bachmann, Akin, Conaway, Fallin, Hunter, Burton, Radonovich, Lucas, Wittman, Linder, McCaul. On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Funny to everybody except Rushies, anyhow: > > http://www.dccc.org/content/sorry > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Wed Mar 4 11:08:40 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:08:40 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <49AED1B8.3070609@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090304/dfb25191/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 4 21:10:58 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:10:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: I got two items in today e-mail, and there seems to be a thread. ***************************** On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: Here is another funny story from Politico: ... Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), the prime sponsor, writes: By virtually every measure, thanks to his adoption of the surge strategy, President Bush left office having secured victory in Iraq. This victory, however, may be squandered if President Obama withdraws American forces too hastily. In an effort to avoid this, this resolution outlines the path that we have followed to victory and calls upon President Obama to maintain this hard-won victory. This resolution is intended to send an important message to President Obama ? that history will judge him harshly should he choose to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ******************************* Lone Ranger and Tonto Went Camping The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep. Some hours later, Tonto woke the Lone Ranger and said, "Kemo Sabe, look at sky. What you see?" The Lone Ranger replied, "I see millions of stars." "What that tell you?" asked Tonto. The Lone Ranger pondered for a minute and then said, "Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What's it tell you, Tonto?" "You dumber than buffalo patties. It mean someone stole tent!" ************************************ David From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 5 08:30:09 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:30:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] So, who is screwing who ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <04A60771-0433-45A1-A6B2-9F71990E4190@verizon.net> ""Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence."" ? Napoleon Bonaparte The economic collapse of the industrial nations is more likely to be caused by public greed than a secret cabal of environmentalists. For example, the "credit default swap" feed back on the "sub prime meltdown" was accomplished by a large number of individuals and corporations each trying to maximize their profit. Pure Capitalism. And the response of "government regulation" is accomplished by a small number of government officials trying to keep their jobs or politicians who want to get reelected. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. - Adam Smith Adam Smith expected the "invisible hand" of the market to correct unbalanced conditions and provide for the greatest good. His simple dictum doesn't consider or understand the difference between positive and negative feedback loops. Or the impact of non-economic responses to economic conditions, e.g. global warming or violent revolution's effect on a free market. David On Mar 4, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Assuming the article in "West" actually appeared, and if so, that > it was not made up of whole cloth, we are still required to make a > leap of faith that might well split the trousers of the most > athletic; namely, that Strong actually is a "secret agent" for a > "secret cabal" of powerful industrialists and CEOs and bankers, > operating secretly in the belly of the Davos Conference. We have > only the author's word ... From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Mar 5 08:31:06 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:31:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: It sure was nice back in the good old days when victory in a war meant that you could bring your soldiers home. Somehow with Iraq and the hard core Republicans, victory means that we get to leave our soldiers there as long as possible. (Dumber than buffalo patties here too.) I just don't see the logic behind declaring victory as a signal to President Obama that he better keep more troops there longer. If the far right insists on Congress declaring victory in Iraq then they should also have the guts to define victory in Iraq as well. Recently, news is leaking out that there is an average of a bomb a day going off somewhere in Iraq. Most are small to be sure but some are not so small. It would be nice to know that the Republicans think that a bomb a day is included in the definition of Bush's glorious victory so they don't come back 6 months from now with their panties in a wad because there is a bomb every other day in Iraq thus President Obama has unwon the war. Katie PS I love the language that they use -- Bush 'secured victory'. They like to use secure as a verb but never as an adjective. You just don't hear them say Bush won a secure victory. On Mar 4, 2009, at 9:10 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I got two items in today e-mail, and there seems to be a thread. > > ***************************** > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > Here is another funny story from Politico: > ... > Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), the prime sponsor, writes: > > By virtually every measure, thanks to his adoption of the surge > strategy, President Bush left office having secured victory in Iraq. > This victory, however, may be squandered if President Obama > withdraws American forces too hastily. In an effort to avoid this, > this resolution outlines the path that we have followed to victory > and > calls upon President Obama to maintain this hard-won victory. This > resolution is intended to send an important message to President > Obama ? that history will judge him harshly should he choose to > snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. > > ******************************* > > Lone Ranger and Tonto Went Camping > > The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got > their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep. > > Some hours later, Tonto woke the Lone Ranger and said, "Kemo Sabe, > look at sky. What you see?" > > The Lone Ranger replied, "I see millions of stars." > > "What that tell you?" asked Tonto. > > The Lone Ranger pondered for a minute and then said, > "Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of > galaxies and potentially billions of planets. > Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. > Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the > morning. > Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and > insignificant. > Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. > What's it tell you, Tonto?" > > "You dumber than buffalo patties. It mean someone stole tent!" > > ************************************ > > David > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Mar 5 08:34:58 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:34:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Appreciated! Message-ID: I appreciated Walt's guest editorial in yesterday's News-Times in response to a previous one, one which had contained unnecessary personal slurs and a bizarre view of U.S. history. Thumbs up, Walt! Geri From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Mar 5 08:44:31 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:44:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Appreciated! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04053479-AE93-4F6B-8CEE-EB2F8EF2F322@verizon.net> Add my thumbs too. Katie On Mar 5, 2009, at 8:34 AM, Geri wrote: > I appreciated Walt's guest editorial in yesterday's News-Times in > response to a previous one, one which had contained unnecessary > personal slurs and a bizarre view of U.S. history. > > Thumbs up, Walt! > > > Geri > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 5 10:20:55 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:20:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Appreciated! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I say that both had unnecessary personal slurs. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Geri > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 8:35 AM > To: GroveNet > Subject: [Grovenet] Appreciated! > > > I appreciated Walt's guest editorial in yesterday's News-Times in response > to a previous one, one which had contained unnecessary personal slurs and > a bizarre view of U.S. history. > > Thumbs up, Walt! > > > Geri > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jawelch at coho.net Thu Mar 5 11:12:31 2009 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:12:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com><37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: The last time I heard the story it was Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson, but it works just as well with Cowboys and Native Americans! John ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Morelli" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] This is funny! I got two items in today e-mail, and there seems to be a thread. ***************************** On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: Here is another funny story from Politico: ... Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), the prime sponsor, writes: By virtually every measure, thanks to his adoption of the surge strategy, President Bush left office having secured victory in Iraq. This victory, however, may be squandered if President Obama withdraws American forces too hastily. In an effort to avoid this, this resolution outlines the path that we have followed to victory and calls upon President Obama to maintain this hard-won victory. This resolution is intended to send an important message to President Obama ? that history will judge him harshly should he choose to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ******************************* Lone Ranger and Tonto Went Camping The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep. Some hours later, Tonto woke the Lone Ranger and said, "Kemo Sabe, look at sky. What you see?" The Lone Ranger replied, "I see millions of stars." "What that tell you?" asked Tonto. The Lone Ranger pondered for a minute and then said, "Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What's it tell you, Tonto?" "You dumber than buffalo patties. It mean someone stole tent!" ************************************ David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 11:28:19 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:28:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] This is funny! In-Reply-To: References: <49ADC614.1000409@jurislex.com> <37ECE067-2AE3-4A54-8692-C749DF9F08B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <589104.99938.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In my career I've led teams as a Program/Project Manager. I've also provided lots of training to people (and teams) on the process and execution of Program/Project Management. One of the keys to leading a team to success is creating what's called a Program/Project Charter. The Charter details the program/project "contract", with one of the most important elements being the definition of Success, i.e. how will the team be measured as successful. When I look at government, the big problem I always see is in cases just such as the Iraq war, a success measurement is never established. Sure, GW stated numerous times he wanted to ferret out and destroy Hussein's weapons of mass destruction along with stopping terrorism. But where did he ever outline how he would measure the success of our incursion into Iraq? I guess maybe this is one of the biggest differences between the corporate and government world. In government it's all about making promises. In the corporate world it's all about delivering results. Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:31:06 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] This is funny! It sure was nice back in the good old days when victory in a war meant that you could bring your soldiers home. Somehow with Iraq and the hard core Republicans, victory means that we get to leave our soldiers there as long as possible. (Dumber than buffalo patties here too.) I just don't see the logic behind declaring victory as a signal to President Obama that he better keep more troops there longer. If the far right insists on Congress declaring victory in Iraq then they should also have the guts to define victory in Iraq as well. Recently, news is leaking out that there is an average of a bomb a day going off somewhere in Iraq. Most are small to be sure but some are not so small. It would be nice to know that the Republicans think that a bomb a day is included in the definition of Bush's glorious victory so they don't come back 6 months from now with their panties in a wad because there is a bomb every other day in Iraq thus President Obama has unwon the war. Katie PS I love the language that they use -- Bush 'secured victory'. They like to use secure as a verb but never as an adjective. You just don't hear them say Bush won a secure victory. From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 16:06:39 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 16:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question Message-ID: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe $486,340 in principal and interest?for sewer and sidewalk improvements near his property?the city performed?in the late 1990s.? According to the article, Emmert is claiming he?didn't know he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred prior to him purchasing the property. In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few properties.? Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees to a Title company for Title insurance. Here are my questions: #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use?involve Title insurance? #2. Wouldn't fees such as those?needing to be collected from Emmert by the city of Cornelius?have shown up in a title search? just wondering . . . thanks! ? Allen Warren From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 5 16:09:45 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:09:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome to Oregon . . . . Message-ID: <49B069C9.8060708@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090305/d954b4b3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 817-grey.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/d954b4b3/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: flag.gif Type: image/gif Size: 9028 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/d954b4b3/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/d954b4b3/attachment.jpe From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 5 16:26:54 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:26:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . Message-ID: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090305/0c761217/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: edlevineeats-69395808-1235163169_thumb.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9204 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/0c761217/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/0c761217/attachment.jpe From jim at benchmarkinspections.com Thu Mar 5 16:42:07 2009 From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:42:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . In-Reply-To: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> References: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <78F11F0A30994C779E06AA25E0D27E72@JimDell> White chocolate is a blight upon humanity. All of the rest are delicious. - Jim Katen _____ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:27 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . Bob, I love coconut, tomatoes, mayo (on chicken and turkey, but never on hamburgers), and beets (fresh are best!!), and I like ouzo. I do not like most of the rest on this list, but I most dislike lima beans and garbanzo beans (chick peas!! or humus, when mushed up), which didn't even make the list!! bob "picky eater" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Top Foods People Love or Hate Posted Mon, Mar 02, 2009, 3:55 pm PST Certain foods are as polarizing as hometown sports teams and politics. Here at Serious Eats , we've put together a list of eleven love-or-hate foods. If you love them, be proud. We've included a recipe highlighting each controversial flavor. 1. White Chocolate: The "chocolate" part trips people up. It's really just a sweet confection (no cocoa involved). Moving on from terminology, when good, it's creamy and vanilla-y, but like "normal" chocolate, when bad, it's just waxy calories. Recipe for white chocolate bark with fresh mint, almonds, and dried berries 2. Cilantro: Soapy, rotten, or just plain vile are popular complaints from cilantro haters. Did you know Julia Child hated the leafy herb? But behavioral neuroscientists would argue that America's food darling had no control. It's all about genetics. Studies have linked liking cilantro to being able to detect the "pleasing" chemicals in the leaf. Recipe for white beans and cilantro 3. Eggplant: For some, it's an old purple sponge and others, the soft-firm texture is what makes a veggie sandwich or an Italian pasta dish. Raw is never good, but fried, grilled, or roasted (always doused with gobs of olive oil), eggplant deserves another chance. Or, the vegetarian sponge will always make you nauseous -- and the roof of your mouth mysteriously itch. Recipe for eggplant lamb lavash wrap 4. Coconut: The smell in shampoo and sunblock is one thing. But the sawdust-like shreds of real coconut can mean chewing and chewing forever until you eventually swallow the darn lump. Sprinkled on pies, cakes, and chicken, coconut either adds a mild tropical zing or a vile, never-ending chewing party. That's when it comes out that a lot of coconut haters don't even know about young fresh coconut which is as soft as a Hawaiian baby's bottom. Recipe for coconut domes 5. Tomato: This one really comes down to texture. Slimy and gritty is never good for the tomato world. The cooked, soft version brings in a few fans. Others are only in it for the vine-picked version during their peak season in August (cut to romantic images of Italian countrysides). Others can only bear them on pizza or completely masked inside ketchup. Recipe for marinated tomatoes with linguine 6. Anchovies: Cat food or human food? A small whiff can make you seasick or have you loading them on pizza and Caesar salads. Whether fresh or in flat metal cans, the salty little fish has some so obsessed, they'll eat the bones. Recipe for roasted sardines with bread crumbs, garlic, and mint 7. Black licorice: Even the red licorice-tolerant may draw the line here. Black licorice gum, jelly beans, tea, Good n' Plentys, and J?germeister?get it out. Along with any herb, like anise or fennel, that resembles the flavor. Out. Lovers say it's an acquired taste, but I think the little kids have it straight here. Not a real candy. Recipe for baked fennel with prosciutto 8. Stinky cheeses: If this smell came from something else (a shoe or dog), I might take issue, but knowing it's from a dairy gob, growing moldy in a controlled environment, I'm fine with the pungent aroma. When others sniff Gorgonzola or Roquefort, they're convinced that feet or laundry were actually involved. Recipe for tortellini with Gorgonzola cream sauce 9. Mayo: Whether Hellmann's or even Miracle Whip, does the creamy off-white slime strip the taste off food or magically make anything better? Haters have been told to try it homemade, but for many, this won't make a tuna or egg salad look any less scary. Recipe for avocado mayonnaise 10. Bell Pepper: To some, all those colorful strips are a mouthful of crisp freshness. To others, they're the backseat driver of vegetables. On a pizza or in pasta, they're supposed to be one of many veggie passengers, but no. The bell pepper's always got to be the loud guy telling your taste buds where to go -- and green, he's the loudest. Green is actually unripened, picked from the vine before its more sweet (and edible) brethren. Recipe for angel hair pasta with red pepper pesto and basil 11. Beets: Despite all my white T-shirts you have stained purple, I still love you, beets. People fear you from an early age, but roasted or pickled, you take on a whole new form. The other camp thinks that the beet smell is such a toss-up between ick and gross and that the beet taste is so much like a metallic vitamin that it's just not meant to be. Recipe for roasted beet salad ------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9204 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/12b60e7f/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090305/12b60e7f/attachment-0001.jpe From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Thu Mar 5 17:11:06 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:11:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . In-Reply-To: <78F11F0A30994C779E06AA25E0D27E72@JimDell> References: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> <78F11F0A30994C779E06AA25E0D27E72@JimDell> Message-ID: <00bb01c99df8$6d6d7530$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> This from a man who puts the heads of small pets in his mouth.... White chocolate is a gift from the gods. John Schrag -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jim Katen Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:42 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . White chocolate is a blight upon humanity. All of the rest are delicious. - Jim Katen _____ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:27 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . Bob, I love coconut, tomatoes, mayo (on chicken and turkey, but never on hamburgers), and beets (fresh are best!!), and I like ouzo. I do not like most of the rest on this list, but I most dislike lima beans and garbanzo beans (chick peas!! or humus, when mushed up), which didn't even make the list!! bob "picky eater" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Top Foods People Love or Hate Posted Mon, Mar 02, 2009, 3:55 pm PST Certain foods are as polarizing as hometown sports teams and politics. Here at Serious Eats , we've put together a list of eleven love-or-hate foods. If you love them, be proud. We've included a recipe highlighting each controversial flavor. 1. White Chocolate: The "chocolate" part trips people up. It's really just a sweet confection (no cocoa involved). Moving on from terminology, when good, it's creamy and vanilla-y, but like "normal" chocolate, when bad, it's just waxy calories. Recipe for white chocolate bark with fresh mint, almonds, and dried berries 2. Cilantro: Soapy, rotten, or just plain vile are popular complaints from cilantro haters. Did you know Julia Child hated the leafy herb? But behavioral neuroscientists would argue that America's food darling had no control. It's all about genetics. Studies have linked liking cilantro to being able to detect the "pleasing" chemicals in the leaf. Recipe for white beans and cilantro 3. Eggplant: For some, it's an old purple sponge and others, the soft-firm texture is what makes a veggie sandwich or an Italian pasta dish. Raw is never good, but fried, grilled, or roasted (always doused with gobs of olive oil), eggplant deserves another chance. Or, the vegetarian sponge will always make you nauseous -- and the roof of your mouth mysteriously itch. Recipe for eggplant lamb lavash wrap 4. Coconut: The smell in shampoo and sunblock is one thing. But the sawdust-like shreds of real coconut can mean chewing and chewing forever until you eventually swallow the darn lump. Sprinkled on pies, cakes, and chicken, coconut either adds a mild tropical zing or a vile, never-ending chewing party. That's when it comes out that a lot of coconut haters don't even know about young fresh coconut which is as soft as a Hawaiian baby's bottom. Recipe for coconut domes 5. Tomato: This one really comes down to texture. Slimy and gritty is never good for the tomato world. The cooked, soft version brings in a few fans. Others are only in it for the vine-picked version during their peak season in August (cut to romantic images of Italian countrysides). Others can only bear them on pizza or completely masked inside ketchup. Recipe for marinated tomatoes with linguine 6. Anchovies: Cat food or human food? A small whiff can make you seasick or have you loading them on pizza and Caesar salads. Whether fresh or in flat metal cans, the salty little fish has some so obsessed, they'll eat the bones. Recipe for roasted sardines with bread crumbs, garlic, and mint 7. Black licorice: Even the red licorice-tolerant may draw the line here. Black licorice gum, jelly beans, tea, Good n' Plentys, and J?germeister?get it out. Along with any herb, like anise or fennel, that resembles the flavor. Out. Lovers say it's an acquired taste, but I think the little kids have it straight here. Not a real candy. Recipe for baked fennel with prosciutto 8. Stinky cheeses: If this smell came from something else (a shoe or dog), I might take issue, but knowing it's from a dairy gob, growing moldy in a controlled environment, I'm fine with the pungent aroma. When others sniff Gorgonzola or Roquefort, they're convinced that feet or laundry were actually involved. Recipe for tortellini with Gorgonzola cream sauce 9. Mayo: Whether Hellmann's or even Miracle Whip, does the creamy off-white slime strip the taste off food or magically make anything better? Haters have been told to try it homemade, but for many, this won't make a tuna or egg salad look any less scary. Recipe for avocado mayonnaise 10. Bell Pepper: To some, all those colorful strips are a mouthful of crisp freshness. To others, they're the backseat driver of vegetables. On a pizza or in pasta, they're supposed to be one of many veggie passengers, but no. The bell pepper's always got to be the loud guy telling your taste buds where to go -- and green, he's the loudest. Green is actually unripened, picked from the vine before its more sweet (and edible) brethren. Recipe for angel hair pasta with red pepper pesto and basil 11. Beets: Despite all my white T-shirts you have stained purple, I still love you, beets. People fear you from an early age, but roasted or pickled, you take on a whole new form. The other camp thinks that the beet smell is such a toss-up between ick and gross and that the beet taste is so much like a metallic vitamin that it's just not meant to be. Recipe for roasted beet salad ------------------------------------------------------ From jim at benchmarkinspections.com Thu Mar 5 18:48:50 2009 From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:48:50 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . In-Reply-To: <00bb01c99df8$6d6d7530$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> References: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> <78F11F0A30994C779E06AA25E0D27E72@JimDell> <00bb01c99df8$6d6d7530$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <0B70781A40134DCD982034EE51AB96D1@JimDell> -----Original Message----- From: John Schrag [mailto:jschrag at fgnewstimes.com] Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 5:11 PM To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . This from a man who puts the heads of small pets in his mouth.... (JK) Hey, the cat got my tongue. . . White chocolate is a gift from the gods. (JK) Yeah, but it was a joke gift -- like a dribble glass. The gods never expected us to take it seriously. - Jim Katen From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 6 06:13:05 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:13:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . In-Reply-To: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> References: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> Message-ID: No eggplant please, I don't like my throat's reaction. No cilantro please, I don't like the taste. No anchovies please, just because I lost my taste for sardines a long time ago. No stinky cheese please, when I need mold, I want penicillin. No bell peppers please, I can do without the gas. Wow! I always knew that I was a picky eater. David On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:26 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Bob, I love coconut, tomatoes, mayo (on chicken and turkey, but > never on hamburgers), and beets (fresh are best!!), and I like > ouzo. I do not like most of the rest on this list, but I most > dislike lima beans and garbanzo beans (chick peas!! or humus, when > mushed up), which didn't even make the list!! > > bob "picky eater" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> The Top Foods People Love or Hate >> Posted Mon, Mar 02, 2009, 3:55 pm PST >> Certain foods are as polarizing as hometown sports teams and >> politics. Here at Serious Eats, we've put together a list of >> eleven love-or-hate foods. If you love them, be proud. We've >> included a recipe highlighting each controversial flavor. >> >> >> >> 1. White Chocolate: The "chocolate" part trips people up. It's >> really just a sweet confection (no cocoa involved). Moving on from >> terminology, when good, it's creamy and vanilla-y, but like >> "normal" chocolate, when bad, it's just waxy calories. >> Recipe for white chocolate bark with fresh mint, almonds, and >> dried berries >> >> 2. Cilantro: Soapy, rotten, or just plain vile are popular >> complaints from cilantro haters. Did you know Julia Child hated >> the leafy herb? But behavioral neuroscientists would argue that >> America's food darling had no control. It's all about genetics. >> Studies have linked liking cilantro to being able to detect the >> "pleasing" chemicals in the leaf. >> Recipe for white beans and cilantro >> >> 3. Eggplant: For some, it's an old purple sponge and others, the >> soft-firm texture is what makes a veggie sandwich or an Italian >> pasta dish. Raw is never good, but fried, grilled, or roasted >> (always doused with gobs of olive oil), eggplant deserves another >> chance. Or, the vegetarian sponge will always make you nauseous -- >> and the roof of your mouth mysteriously itch. >> Recipe for eggplant lamb lavash wrap >> >> 4. Coconut: The smell in shampoo and sunblock is one thing. But >> the sawdust-like shreds of real coconut can mean chewing and >> chewing forever until you eventually swallow the darn lump. >> Sprinkled on pies, cakes, and chicken, coconut either adds a mild >> tropical zing or a vile, never-ending chewing party. That's when >> it comes out that a lot of coconut haters don't even know about >> young fresh coconut which is as soft as a Hawaiian baby's bottom. >> Recipe for coconut domes >> >> 5. Tomato: This one really comes down to texture. Slimy and gritty >> is never good for the tomato world. The cooked, soft version >> brings in a few fans. Others are only in it for the vine-picked >> version during their peak season in August (cut to romantic images >> of Italian countrysides). Others can only bear them on pizza or >> completely masked inside ketchup. >> Recipe for marinated tomatoes with linguine >> >> 6. Anchovies: Cat food or human food? A small whiff can make you >> seasick or have you loading them on pizza and Caesar salads. >> Whether fresh or in flat metal cans, the salty little fish has >> some so obsessed, they'll eat the bones. >> Recipe for roasted sardines with bread crumbs, garlic, and mint >> >> 7. Black licorice: Even the red licorice-tolerant may draw the >> line here. Black licorice gum, jelly beans, tea, Good n' Plentys, >> and J?germeister?get it out. Along with any herb, like anise or >> fennel, that resembles the flavor. Out. Lovers say it's an >> acquired taste, but I think the little kids have it straight here. >> Not a real candy. >> Recipe for baked fennel with prosciutto >> >> 8. Stinky cheeses: If this smell came from something else (a shoe >> or dog), I might take issue, but knowing it's from a dairy gob, >> growing moldy in a controlled environment, I'm fine with the >> pungent aroma. When others sniff Gorgonzola or Roquefort, they're >> convinced that feet or laundry were actually involved. >> Recipe for tortellini with Gorgonzola cream sauce >> >> 9. Mayo: Whether Hellmann's or even Miracle Whip, does the creamy >> off-white slime strip the taste off food or magically make >> anything better? Haters have been told to try it homemade, but for >> many, this won't make a tuna or egg salad look any less scary. >> Recipe for avocado mayonnaise >> >> 10. Bell Pepper: To some, all those colorful strips are a mouthful >> of crisp freshness. To others, they're the backseat driver of >> vegetables. On a pizza or in pasta, they're supposed to be one of >> many veggie passengers, but no. The bell pepper's always got to be >> the loud guy telling your taste buds where to go -- and green, >> he's the loudest. Green is actually unripened, picked from the >> vine before its more sweet (and edible) brethren. >> Recipe for angel hair pasta with red pepper pesto and basil >> >> 11. Beets: Despite all my white T-shirts you have stained purple, >> I still love you, beets. People fear you from an early age, but >> roasted or pickled, you take on a whole new form. The other camp >> thinks that the beet smell is such a toss-up between ick and gross >> and that the beet taste is so much like a metallic vitamin that >> it's just not meant to be. >> Recipe for roasted beet salad > ------------------------------------------------------ > > RAB 3.JPG> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 6 06:43:48 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:43:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Three cups of tea Message-ID: I just finished reading "Three cups of tea". It is an interesting history of Greg Mortenson, the American mountain climber who has been competing with the Islamic madrassas in Pakistan and Afghanistan for the hearts and minds of the next generation. A very interesting story. There is more available at http://www.threecupsoftea.com/ In one chapter it reminded me that in the run up to the American support for the Northern Alliance, the United States promised that they were going to rebuild Afghanistan and that we would not forget them. It further reminded me that after the Taliban had been removed from power and Al Quaeda had been sent packing, the Bush Administration redirected money approved by Congress for Afghanistan to further his plans for an invasion of Iraq. Because Bush did not follow up on his promise to Afghanistan and America for the rebuilding of the shattered country, today we again face the prospect of a protracted war in Afghanistan with a resurgent Taliban and spill over into Pakistan. Some members of Congress are fearful that Obama will allow the gains in Iraq to slip away. Where were they when Bush did that in Afghanistan? Why are they not making the Bush failure to secure Afghanistan part of their arguments for their proposed policy in Iraq? The answer may have more to do with Republican Party political posturing than any real concern for Iraq or Afghanistan. The people in those nations are pawns in the game of "Washington Power Politics". They are only important when they can help get a Republican elected, otherwise they are expendable or invisible. Are the Democrats the same? Bill Clinton took a lot of heat from the Republicans for getting involved in Bosnia when Christians were cleansing Muslims. His action bought a lot of good will among moderate Muslims. Good will that evaporated with Abu Grabe and Guantanamo. It makes me wonder if the Republican Party hates all Muslims, or if their spokes persons are oblivious to the existence of moderate Muslims. The Reagan Republican think tanks are paranoid of "Islamofascists" and the whole fundamentalist Islamic movement, which may be a valid concern. But, pushing moderates into that camp is not a smart move. The last eight years has shown the world that a Republican administration considers dead Muslim civilians to be "collateral damage", not innocent human beings. People who wish to continue that sort of thinking should not be trusted with sharp objects. David From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 6 08:47:57 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:47:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Three cups of tea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point, David. And it should be remembered that we have three times promised the Kurds our protection, and three times sacrificed them... the first two times to Saddam, the third to Turkey. This is not to say that the Kurdish militants are "nice" people. In their age-old obsession of a "Greater Kurdistan," they can become as vicious and narrow-minded as, say, the Serbs. They happen to occupy contiguous territories of adjacent, intolerant nations with whom American is at least trying to maintain an uneasy peace, but they really don't give a damn about keeping the lid on if they see a chance to advance their nationalistic, tribal dream. And now, although they may make nice occasionally in Iraqi politics, they really have no reason to trust us, or to follow our short-term initiatives. The Repubs enjoy gloating over the prospect that Iraq will boil over again after we finally pull out-- and, given that the nation was originally tacked together by the Brits from mutually hostile tribes, sects and nationalities, even a Repub should be able to predict that. And the Kurds, especially if they can grab off a good share of Northern Iraq's oil wealth and expel the Arabs that Saddam moved in, will be among the first to stir the pot. The situation would probably still be bad, but at least we might have marginally more influence, if we had originally treated all concerned as human beings, rather than chess-pieces in a carelessly-played, short-term game. Walt On Mar 6, 2009, at 6:43 AM, David Morelli wrote: > I just finished reading "Three cups of tea". It is an interesting > history of Greg Mortenson, the American mountain climber who has been > competing with the Islamic madrassas in Pakistan and Afghanistan for > the hearts and minds of the next generation. A very interesting > story. > > There is more available at > http://www.threecupsoftea.com/ > > In one chapter it reminded me that in the run up to the American > support for the Northern Alliance, the United States promised that > they were going to rebuild Afghanistan and that we would not forget > them. It further reminded me that after the Taliban had been removed > from power and Al Quaeda had been sent packing, the Bush > Administration redirected money approved by Congress for Afghanistan > to further his plans for an invasion of Iraq. > > Because Bush did not follow up on his promise to Afghanistan and > America for the rebuilding of the shattered country, today we again > face the prospect of a protracted war in Afghanistan with a resurgent > Taliban and spill over into Pakistan. > > Some members of Congress are fearful that Obama will allow the gains > in Iraq to slip away. Where were they when Bush did that in > Afghanistan? Why are they not making the Bush failure to secure > Afghanistan part of their arguments for their proposed policy in Iraq? > > The answer may have more to do with Republican Party political > posturing than any real concern for Iraq or Afghanistan. The people > in those nations are pawns in the game of "Washington Power > Politics". They are only important when they can help get a > Republican elected, otherwise they are expendable or invisible. > > Are the Democrats the same? Bill Clinton took a lot of heat from the > Republicans for getting involved in Bosnia when Christians were > cleansing Muslims. His action bought a lot of good will among > moderate Muslims. Good will that evaporated with Abu Grabe and > Guantanamo. It makes me wonder if the Republican Party hates all > Muslims, or if their spokes persons are oblivious to the existence of > moderate Muslims. > > The Reagan Republican think tanks are paranoid of "Islamofascists" > and the whole fundamentalist Islamic movement, which may be a valid > concern. But, pushing moderates into that camp is not a smart move. > The last eight years has shown the world that a Republican > administration considers dead Muslim civilians to be "collateral > damage", not innocent human beings. People who wish to continue that > sort of thinking should not be trusted with sharp objects. > > David > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Fri Mar 6 09:24:56 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:24:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c99e80$78655880$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. john Thanks for the question. Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the land is being sold on land contract. In that case a bank is not involved to invoke their version of "due diligence". We know of property owners who have also been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land without a title report. While title reports are not a guarantee, they normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or other claims filed against a piece of property. Dave Wafflle, City Manager City of Cornelius, -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:07 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] question In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe $486,340 in principal and interest?for sewer and sidewalk improvements near his property?the city performed?in the late 1990s.? According to the article, Emmert is claiming he?didn't know he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred prior to him purchasing the property. In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few properties.? Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees to a Title company for Title insurance. Here are my questions: #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use?involve Title insurance? #2. Wouldn't fees such as those?needing to be collected from Emmert by the city of Cornelius?have shown up in a title search? just wondering . . . thanks! ? Allen Warren _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Fri Mar 6 09:44:26 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:44:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <000e01c99e80$78655880$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000e01c99e80$78655880$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <7D43828C-F143-4D69-83E7-B39A94D562D4@verizon.net> Thanks! That was the question that arose in my mind as well. --MK On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:24 AM, John Schrag wrote: > Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. > john > > Thanks for the question. > Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the > land is > being sold on land contract. In that case a bank is not involved to > invoke > their version of "due diligence". We know of property owners who > have also > been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land > without a title report. While title reports are not a guarantee, they > normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or > other > claims filed against a piece of property. > > Dave Wafflle, City Manager > City of Cornelius, > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] > On > Behalf Of Allen Warren > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:07 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] question > > In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials > considering > foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the properties > are said > to be deliquent in paying city fees. > > One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe > $486,340 > in principal and interest for sewer and sidewalk improvements near his > property the city performed in the late 1990s. According to the > article, > Emmert is claiming he didn't know he owed anything to the city for the > improvements, which occurred prior to him purchasing the property. > > In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few > properties. > Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees to a Title > company for > Title insurance. > > Here are my questions: > #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use involve Title > insurance? > #2. Wouldn't fees such as those needing to be collected from Emmert > by the > city of Cornelius have shown up in a title search? > > just wondering . . . thanks! > > Allen Warren > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 10:03:49 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:03:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <000e01c99e80$78655880$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000e01c99e80$78655880$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <908906.34729.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks John. Now?the questions in my mind are: did?Terry Emmert (or his agent) and the other property owners pay for title?insurance?? If yes, they purchased the insurance, did these fees not show up?? If no, they didn't purchase the insurance, why not?? If?an independent title search was done today, would these fees show up? ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: John Schrag To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 9:24:56 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. john Thanks for the question.? Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the land is being sold on land contract.? In that case a bank is not involved to invoke their version of "due diligence".? We know of property owners who have also been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land without a title report.? While title reports are not a guarantee, they normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or other claims filed against a piece of property.? Dave Wafflle, City Manager City of Cornelius, -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:07 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] question In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe $486,340 in principal and interest?for sewer and sidewalk improvements near his property?the city performed?in the late 1990s.? According to the article, Emmert is claiming he?didn't know he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred prior to him purchasing the property. In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few properties.? Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees to a Title company for Title insurance. Here are my questions: #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use?involve Title insurance? #2. Wouldn't fees such as those?needing to be collected from Emmert by the city of Cornelius?have shown up in a title search? just wondering . . . thanks! ? Allen Warren ? ? ? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 12:15:42 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:15:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question Message-ID: <497812.87329.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I dunno... he says "not all buyers agree to obtain a title report"... was this the case in this particular situation? I can't believe a buyer would forgo a title report and insurance which is a mere pittance against something like this happening on a million dollar property.? I think the city manager is waffling. --Jeff --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Martha Khoury wrote: From: Martha Khoury Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 9:44 AM Thanks! That was the question that arose in my mind as well. --MK On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:24 AM, John Schrag wrote: > Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. > john > > Thanks for the question. > Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the? land is being sold on land contract.? In that case a bank is not involved to invoke their version of "due diligence".? We know of property owners who have also been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land without a title report.? While title reports are not a guarantee, they normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or other claims filed against a piece of property. > > Dave Wafflle, City Manager > City of Cornelius, From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 13:05:23 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <497812.87329.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <497812.87329.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <680804.8772.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff, What I read is the city manager?is merely pointing out at least one?example of how?a buyer might now know of deliquent taxes, i.e. property purchased on land contract. Again, when I've purchased homes in the past I paid the title insurance fee.? I always figured it was an extra nuisance fee that I had to pay.? Now I can see?a possible real example of how it's truly a "no brainer" fee, assuming a title search would indeed bring up?fees like what Steve Emmert is now realizing he has to pay. To me this is one of those situations where a potential buyer has to?perform due diligence to insure they have done their best to insure they are aware of any and all issues prior to agreeing to purchase a property. As I said in an earlier email, I'm?wondering if?Steve Emmert ever had the title search performed prior to his purchasing the land he now owes?so much on, including if he did indeed have the title search performed, did it expose these fees as attached to the property. ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Jeff Cooper To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 12:15:42 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question I dunno... he says "not all buyers agree to obtain a title report"... was this the case in this particular situation? I can't believe a buyer would forgo a title report and insurance which is a mere pittance against something like this happening on a million dollar property.? I think the city manager is waffling. --Jeff --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Martha Khoury wrote: From: Martha Khoury Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 9:44 AM Thanks! That was the question that arose in my mind as well. --MK On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:24 AM, John Schrag wrote: > Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. > john > > Thanks for the question. > Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the? land is being sold on land contract.? In that case a bank is not involved to invoke their version of "due diligence".? We know of property owners who have also been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land without a title report.? While title reports are not a guarantee, they normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or other claims filed against a piece of property. > > Dave Wafflle, City Manager > City of Cornelius, ? ? ? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Fri Mar 6 13:44:12 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:44:12 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <497812.87329.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <497812.87329.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009601c99ea4$b079d790$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> I've always found that rather than guess at someone's motives, it works best to ask them direct questions. I've never known Dave to dodge anyone on matters of public policy. Send him a note: DWaffle at ci.cornelius.or.us John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Cooper Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question I dunno... he says "not all buyers agree to obtain a title report"... was this the case in this particular situation? I can't believe a buyer would forgo a title report and insurance which is a mere pittance against something like this happening on a million dollar property.? I think the city manager is waffling. --Jeff --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Martha Khoury wrote: From: Martha Khoury Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 9:44 AM Thanks! That was the question that arose in my mind as well. --MK On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:24 AM, John Schrag wrote: > Allen, below is a response from Dave Waffle, city manager. > john > > Thanks for the question. > Not all buyers agree to obtain a title report, especially if the? land is being sold on land contract.? In that case a bank is not involved to invoke their version of "due diligence".? We know of property owners who have also been surprised to learn of delinquent taxes after they purchased land without a title report.? While title reports are not a guarantee, they normally will show liens, taxes, special assessments, easements or other claims filed against a piece of property. > > Dave Wafflle, City Manager > City of Cornelius, _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chuck at grovenet.net Fri Mar 6 14:38:32 2009 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 14:38:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's an interesting list . . . In-Reply-To: References: <49B06DCE.1000004@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <49B1A5E8.2070904@grovenet.net> >>> 1. White Chocolate: Can do without. Never a big fan. >>> >>> 2. Cilantro: I like Cialntro. Especially in Salsas. Must be the Albuquerque in me. >>> >>> 3. Eggplant: Something about the word Egg and Plant don't go together. I'll pass on this one as well. >>> >>> 4. Coconut: Either way. I don't dislike it, but can live without it just fine. >>> >>> 5. Tomato: Gotta have tomatoes! And those things as Safeway don't count. Just picked off the vine, yum! >>> >>> 6. Anchovies: {shudder} NO thanks. >>> >>> 7. Black licorice: {another shudder} No Ouzo, No Jaigermeister, no Absynthe....no licorice! Yack! >>> >>> 8. Stinky cheeses: Mmmmmm Blue Cheese, mmmmmm Feta......mmmmmm stinky cheese (with a glass of pinot please) >>> >>> 9. Mayo: No more Miracle Whip - it's mostly sugar. But I love mayo, especially on hamburgers with a big slice of tomato and red onion. >>> >>> 10. Bell Pepper: Love the Red, can eat the green. Again, the New Mexican in me says Chiles are chiles. >>> >>> 11. Beets: toss-up between ick and gross - I agree. Stay in the ground. I'll eat the greens >>> 12. Hummus? LOVE hummus. the garlickier the better. >>> 13. White Castles need to be in here. Gotta love a good slider. Makes my daughter yack though. mmm mmm From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 6 15:01:31 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:01:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <050857EE-7BDE-44A9-9988-15F3670B32EE@verizon.net> $486k !! What kind of improvement costs that much, that the "benefited" land owner and title company would be ignorant of it? Local person, or absentee landowner? David On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Allen Warren wrote: > In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials > considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the > properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. > > One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe > $486,340 in principal and interest for sewer and sidewalk > improvements near his property the city performed in the late > 1990s. According to the article, Emmert is claiming he didn't know > he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred > prior to him purchasing the property. > > In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few > properties. Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees > to a Title company for Title insurance. > > Here are my questions: > #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use involve Title > insurance? > #2. Wouldn't fees such as those needing to be collected from Emmert > by the city of Cornelius have shown up in a title search? > > just wondering . . . thanks! > > Allen Warren > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 15:19:04 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <050857EE-7BDE-44A9-9988-15F3670B32EE@verizon.net> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <050857EE-7BDE-44A9-9988-15F3670B32EE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <194862.95813.qm@web35205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> David, The article states ~50% of the $486k was interest.? Still a hefty sum. Again, I have no idea if a Title search was completed.??I'm wondering *IF* a Title search was conducted and if so, did the fees show up? My 1st assumption is a Title search was not completed as I'm also assuming?these fees would've shown up in a Title search. I'm a "what's the root cause?" kind of person . . .?ever since reading the article I've been wondering?why?Steve Emmert did not know about the fees that came w/the property, assuming he truly did not know.? I'm putting it in the context of?a future learning for me, just in case I ever choose to purchase?a piece of property as I can't even BEGIN to imagine?reading a notice like what Steve Emmert read about owing $486k. ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 3:01:31 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question $486k !!? What kind of improvement costs that much, that the? "benefited" land owner and title company would be ignorant of it? Local person, or absentee landowner? David On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Allen Warren wrote: > In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials? > considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the? > properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. > > One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe? > $486,340 in principal and interest for sewer and sidewalk? > improvements near his property the city performed in the late? > 1990s.? According to the article, Emmert is claiming he didn't know? > he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred? > prior to him purchasing the property. > > In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few? > properties.? Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees? > to a Title company for Title insurance. > > Here are my questions: > #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use involve Title? > insurance? > #2. Wouldn't fees such as those needing to be collected from Emmert? > by the city of Cornelius have shown up in a title search? > > just wondering . . . thanks! > > Allen Warren > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Fri Mar 6 15:47:17 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:47:17 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <194862.95813.qm@web35205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700996.23734.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com><050857EE-7BDE-44A9-9988-15F3670B32EE@verizon.net> <194862.95813.qm@web35205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c99eb5$e210a2a0$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Again: Why assume anything? Ask Emmert himself. I didn't talk to him on this story, but I have in the past and he's very approachable. Phone: (503) 655-7191 Toll Free: (800) 936-6378 Main Fax: (503) 655-3933 Heavy Rigging & Transport Fax: (503) 650-2289 Emmert International 11811 SE Highway 212 Clackamas, OR 97015 Email: info at emmertintl.com John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:19 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question David, The article states ~50% of the $486k was interest.? Still a hefty sum. Again, I have no idea if a Title search was completed.??I'm wondering *IF* a Title search was conducted and if so, did the fees show up? My 1st assumption is a Title search was not completed as I'm also assuming?these fees would've shown up in a Title search. I'm a "what's the root cause?" kind of person . . .?ever since reading the article I've been wondering?why?Steve Emmert did not know about the fees that came w/the property, assuming he truly did not know.? I'm putting it in the context of?a future learning for me, just in case I ever choose to purchase?a piece of property as I can't even BEGIN to imagine?reading a notice like what Steve Emmert read about owing $486k. ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 3:01:31 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question $486k !!? What kind of improvement costs that much, that the? "benefited" land owner and title company would be ignorant of it? Local person, or absentee landowner? David On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Allen Warren wrote: > In this week's News Times is a report on Cornelius officials? > considering foreclosure on deliquent properties, i.e. owners of the? > properties are said to be deliquent in paying city fees. > > One of the owners highlighted is Terry Emmert, who is said to owe? > $486,340 in principal and interest for sewer and sidewalk? > improvements near his property the city performed in the late? > 1990s.? According to the article, Emmert is claiming he didn't know? > he owed anything to the city for the improvements, which occurred? > prior to him purchasing the property. > > In the past 20 years, my wife and I have purchased & sold a few? > properties.? Every time we purchased a new property, we paid fees? > to a Title company for Title insurance. > > Here are my questions: > #1. Don't commercial property transactions also use involve Title? > insurance? > #2. Wouldn't fees such as those needing to be collected from Emmert? > by the city of Cornelius have shown up in a title search? > > just wondering . . . thanks! > > Allen Warren > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 17:20:21 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:20:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question Message-ID: <549901.74290.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi John, I have no intention of calling him; I just pointed out he was "waffling" as a play on his name.? It does seem to me though that since this is a newsworthy item that either you or someone on your paper might want to follow up on the question. Regards, Jeff --- On Fri, 3/6/09, John Schrag wrote: From: John Schrag Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 3:47 PM Again: Why assume anything? Ask Emmert himself. I didn't talk to him on this story, but I have in the past and he's very approachable. Phone: (503) 655-7191 Toll Free: (800) 936-6378 Main Fax: (503) 655-3933 Heavy Rigging & Transport Fax: (503) 650-2289 Emmert International 11811 SE Highway 212 Clackamas, OR 97015 Email: info at emmertintl.com John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Fri Mar 6 17:23:53 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:23:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <549901.74290.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <549901.74290.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00df01c99ec3$6140ae50$6402a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Jeff, If we update the story -- as I hope we will, we'll try to clarify some of these questions. In the meantime, I know that Dave would welcome a follow-up question. He's a public servant and understands that it's part of his job to answer questions from the public. John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Cooper Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:20 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question Hi John, I have no intention of calling him; I just pointed out he was "waffling" as a play on his name.? It does seem to me though that since this is a newsworthy item that either you or someone on your paper might want to follow up on the question. Regards, Jeff --- On Fri, 3/6/09, John Schrag wrote: From: John Schrag Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 3:47 PM Again: Why assume anything? Ask Emmert himself. I didn't talk to him on this story, but I have in the past and he's very approachable. Phone: (503) 655-7191 Toll Free: (800) 936-6378 Main Fax: (503) 655-3933 Heavy Rigging & Transport Fax: (503) 650-2289 Emmert International 11811 SE Highway 212 Clackamas, OR 97015 Email: info at emmertintl.com John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 17:34:14 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:34:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] question Message-ID: <463747.52354.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> It seems likely this is going to end up in the courts. If he *did* a title search and *was* informed of the lien then he has no one to blame but himself and obviously should be on the hook for the entire bill since he's been ducking payment. If he *did* a title search and *wasn't* informed of the lien then the title company will be on the hook for the payment.? Whether or not they'd be liable for the interest is of course debatable.? It seems that the City of Cornelius will have to prove when notice was first sent, and what subsequent notices were sent. If he *didn't* do a title search then my guess is it will still end up in the courts and Cornelius will still have to give proof of notice, especially in regards to the $200+K of interest payments. One thing I'd like to add to this story is it seems strange to me that landowners are on the hook for sewer improvements near their properties in Cornelius.? I'm glad that here in Forest Grove we're not charged above and beyond our monthly bill for sewer (uh... or *are* we!?). Again, the only follow-up I'm likely to do is right here!? Regards, Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 7 02:11:16 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 02:11:16 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <463747.52354.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <463747.52354.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FF30C98-D031-42D8-B320-849CD0FAE16D@verizon.net> Usually there must be some sort of connection between the fee and the use of the improvement. So, if the sewer improvement was replacement of a functioning 12" line with a 24" line to provide additional capacity that was necessary to support development of vacant property, then the owner of the vacant property would need to pay for their share of the expansion even though the pipe is not on their property. David On Mar 6, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > ... > One thing I'd like to add to this story is it seems strange to me > that landowners are on the hook for sewer improvements near their > properties in Cornelius. I'm glad that here in Forest Grove we're > not charged above and beyond our monthly bill for sewer (uh... or > *are* we!?). > ... > Regards, > > Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 9 11:41:21 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:41:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Worth reading . . . . Message-ID: <49B562D1.4090004@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090309/b0527a6a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090309/b0527a6a/attachment.jpe From jawelch at coho.net Mon Mar 9 11:55:54 2009 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:55:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Worth reading . . . . References: <49B562D1.4090004@jurislex.com> Message-ID: You remember the little quarter page entries in every issue of the old Saturday Evening Post entitled "Suspicions Confirmed?" This would have been a good submission. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:41 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Worth reading . . . . Constitutional Law Law Profs Shocked By DOJ Memos About Bush Presidential Powers Posted Mar 4, 2009, 03:52 pm CDT By Martha Neil Law professors with differing political perspectives agree on one thing after seeing the recently released U.S. Department of Justice legal memos outlining the scope of presidential power during the Bush administration: They went too far. Written over a several-year period after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, the since-countermanded memos created what Jack Balkin of Yale Law School calls a "theory of presidential dictatorship," reports the Chicago Tribune. Because the entire world was considered a battlefield, Bush was determined to have enormous powers in any situation involving the military and an identified enemy. "I agree with the left on this one," Orin Kerr of George Washington University tells the newspaper. The approach taken by the memos "was simply not a plausible reading of the case law." Additional coverage: ABAJournal.com: "DOJ Memo Allowed Free Speech Curbs, Military Force Against US Terrorists" ABAJournal.com: "John Yoo Says His Memos 'Were Not for Public Consumption'" ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090309/f5087749/attachment.jpe From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 9 17:49:01 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] spring and COMMUNITY GARDEN In-Reply-To: <991916.57693.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <93B3A956-44E8-494C-A75A-BCB2DEBB16CC@teleport.com> <991916.57693.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6B385F13-62A8-45B3-8CB9-89A1E480F19F@teleport.com> Planning for the forest Grove Community Garden proceeds! I will be giving a short report to the City Council at the council meeting tonight (7 p.m. at the City Auditorium). Everyone interested is invited to an Organizational Meeting this Thursday, March 12, at 7 p.m. at my house, 1817 17th Avenue, to share information, volunteer a steering committee and assign tasks. We intend to get the garden ready in time for the planting season! Walt Wentz 357-4577 On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Allen Warren wrote: > Walt, excellent info. > > Forest Grove HS students are required to provide 'x' amount of > community service hours each year. Additionally, seniors are > required to complete a senior class project related to their > potential future career. Suggestion: maybe phone the high school > and see if they would like to provide this opportunity to one or > more students to "get some sort of organization together" as you > suggest below? > > > Allen Warren > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:06:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] spring and COMMUNITY GARDEN > > Hi Martha; > Indeed, Spring is sproinging soon. > And significantly, last night at a group meeting, the idea of a > Community Garden was brought up. > The city has two plots of sunny, fertile land... one of 1-1/2 acres, > which was used until recently to grow food for the county jail, and > one large residential plot, which basically would need cultivating to > get it ready. > The city is willing to provide FREE water service to both! > If we (the public) can get some sort of organization together to > arrange plowing, assign family plots, etc., we can actually learn > from gardening experts, do something about the recession and our food > budgets, and also produce some extra for the Food Bank and other > worthy causes. > Not to mention the fun and socializing of working outdoors a few > hours a week with gardening kinspirits. > Anybody interested, please e-mail or phone me... 357-4577. > Walt Wentz > > > On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > >> Noticed our first snowdrops and crocuses blooming yesterday. -M >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 9 17:54:10 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:54:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Organic vs conventional vs GMO In-Reply-To: References: <6E563686-CCBA-4F7F-8BD8-84A4116C101A@verizon.net> <49A0BC7E.30501@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <70B0A425-8474-4785-99D1-9A2305034E01@teleport.com> Planning for the Forest Grove Community Garden proceeds! I will be giving a short report to the City Council at the council meeting tonight (7 p.m. at the City Auditorium). Everyone interested is invited to an Organizational Meeting this Thursday, March 12, at 7 p.m. at my house, 1817 17th Avenue, to share information, volunteer a steering committee and assign tasks. We intend to get the garden ready in time for the planting season! Walt Wentz 357-4577 On Feb 21, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > For the past six or seven years (last year was an exception), I've > participated in a CSA (Community Supported Agriculture). We are so > lucky in > FG to have quite a few very close by. This year I'm going to try > the Love > Farm CSA for the first time. They are virtually around the corner > from me > and their pickup times are very convenient. > > In case anyone hasn't tried it, it is a great way to get farm fresh > veggies > and know who grew them. Another benefit is there are a limited > number of > people handling your food before you get it. Washing fragile > berries, like > raspberries, can often crush or bruise them a bit. Knowing they > haven't > been handled nearly as much as storebought produce, makes me feel more > confident about eating them unwashed. > > If you haven't tried a CSA before, I highly recommend it. And if > you are > unsure, you might try splitting a share with a friend and > alternating your > pick-ups. I do this every year and we pick up on alternate weeks. > Alternating weeks works better than trying to split the weekly pick > up - > it's not always easy or fun to split a squash or head of lettuce or > end up > with just 2 ears of corn. With this method you won't be over- > inundated with > veggies and can still supplement with farm stands and farmer's > markets on > the off-week if necessary. > > Marian > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of chuck > Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:46 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Organic vs conventional vs GMO > > Unfortunately, it's not so easy to avoid GMO foods. The top 2 > crops are > Soybeans and Corn. What isn't made into processed foods (partially > hydrogenated soybean oil, high fructose corn syrup) is made into > animal > feed. If you eat processed foods (in a can, box, or package) it's > probably got one of the two ingredients in it - along with a long list > of additives, preservatives, and coloring. And most of the meat we > eat > comes from factory farms - which is fed the GMO animal feeds, and > worse. > > Pretty much the only way to eat safe (or should I say to KNOW what you > are eating) anymore is to grow your own, and become Vegetarian or > Vegan. The thread I saw earlier about starting a community garden > is a > GREAT idea. > > Dr. Mercola's site has a lot of good info as does NaturalNews.com. > > Good books on the subject include The China Study, Omnivore's Dilemma, > Diet for a New America, Food Revolution. > > Great documentaries are King Corn, Dying to have Known, Simply Raw, > Food > Matters. > > When I was in my Computer Store, and ate out at Quiznos, Cornerstone, > Pac Ave etc every day - I was the poster boy for the Standard American > Diet. And I topped 225 lbs. Today I am a Vegetarian. I stopped > drinking soda and try to stay away from processed foods. especially > HFCS. I quit eating all meat and instead eat tons of veggies and > fruit. Organic if I can afford it and as locally grown as possible. > New Seasons has a really good selection. Fred Meyer's not too bad > either. Safeway? I avoid altogether. Winco's not too bad but you > gotta watch what you are buying and know where it coming from. > > I said I topped 225 pounds. My weight today is 188lbs. That's a net > loss of 37 pounds. And if I can do it - anyone can do it. > > The Standard American Diet is killing us. Heart Disease, Cancer, > Diabetes, Obesity, Osteoporosis - So now let's genetically alter some > genes and see what that does to us. I like being a Guinea Pig > > Good article Martha > > > > Martha Khoury wrote: >> How to know which is which... (Found this interesting tidbit on Dr. >> Mercola's Newsletter.) --MK >> >> The little stickers on fruits and vegetables have digits that let you >> know whether they're conventionally grown or organic, and if they're >> genetically modified (GM). There are many benefits to knowing this >> information: >> >> . The health risks -- GM foods have been in stores only since the >> 1990s, so the long-term health risks are unknown >> . The environmental risks -- Scientists are concerned that GMOs will >> reduce biodiversity >> . The taste benefits -- People all over the world agree that the >> range >> of possible flavors is greater without a few GM foods crowding out >> the >> many natural varieties >> >> Here's what you should look for: >> >> . A four-digit number means the produce is conventionally grown >> . A five-digit number beginning with 9 means it's organic >> . A five-digit number beginning with 8 means it's GM >> >> >> Sources: >> Ideal Bite January 30, 2009 >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Mon Mar 9 20:40:30 2009 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Organic vs conventional vs GMO In-Reply-To: <70B0A425-8474-4785-99D1-9A2305034E01@teleport.com> Message-ID: <703737.75601.qm@web35608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I got this from a friend in Alaska today, she is normally a very reliable source, at any rate, here is what she had to say: GMOs Make ??Species Jump?? Genes from genetically modified crops can ??jump?? into the bodies of the animals eating those crops, according to a study that will be published soon in Germany. In the study, a zoology professor at the University of Jena found that bees that had eaten canola modified to be resistant to the weed killer Round Up had taken that resistance ??into their own genetic make-up,?? according to an interview he gave to a German television station. He said it was rare, but that it did happen. Asked if his findings meant anything for humans who eat GMOs, Hans ?Heinrich Kaatz said, ??maybe...but I am not an expert in this area.?? This study - three years in the making - is the first to show genes jumping the species barrier. Government officials in England - prompted by local newspapers - said they wouldn?t comment until after the study is published in a scientific journal. Anti-GMO activists pounced on the news, saying that the study shows how little is known about the modifications, even though they are already in wide use around the world, particularly in the USA. Experts said the research - which has yet to be reviewed by other scientists - is significant because it suggests that all types of bacteria could become contaminated by genes used in genetically modified technology, including those that live inside the human digestive system. If this happens, it could hinder the good bacteria?s role in helping the human body fight disease, aid digestion and facilitate blood clotting. The alien gene Kaatz studied is used to modify canola - among other things - making it resistant to antibiotics. By jumping to bacteria in the digestive tract, the gene could render doctors unable to treat meningitis or E-coli infections with antibiotics, other scientists warned. Ulrike Riedel, of the German health ministry, told a London newspaper the experiments should be taken ??very seriously?? adding: ??This kind of study is a good reason why we should not assume that GMOs are acceptable. The USDA said it will help give some credence to claims that products are made without the use of genetically modified ingredients. The agency announced last month that it would grant accreditation to labs doing tests on GMOs.? The USDA?s Grain Inspection Packers and stockyards Administration will review, upon request, labs testing grains for GMOs and will accredit those laboratories that meet performance standards. In addition, the agency will evaluate test kits against the manufacturer?s specifications for determining the presence of GMOs in bulk grain to ensure that these tests are accurate and reliable. The test services will be provided for a fee. EDITOR?S NOTE: Keep in mind, the USDA is 100% in favor of genetically modified foods (GMOs). The question becomes...how credible will be their involvement in these tests? Article By: Scott C. Yates Source: Natural Foods Merchandiser, July 2000. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of chuck > Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:46 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Organic vs conventional vs GMO > > Unfortunately, it's not so easy to avoid GMO foods. The top 2 > crops are > Soybeans and Corn. What isn't made into processed foods (partially > hydrogenated soybean oil, high fructose corn syrup) is made into > animal > feed. If you eat processed foods (in a can, box, or package) it's > probably got one of the two ingredients in it - along with a long list > of additives, preservatives, and coloring. And most of the meat we > eat > comes from factory farms - which is fed the GMO animal feeds, and > worse. > > Pretty much the only way to eat safe (or should I say to KNOW what you > are eating) anymore is to grow your own, and become Vegetarian or > Vegan. The thread I saw earlier about starting a community garden > is a > GREAT idea. > > Dr. Mercola's site has a lot of good info as does NaturalNews.com. > > Good books on the subject include The China Study, Omnivore's Dilemma, > Diet for a New America, Food Revolution. > > Great documentaries are King Corn, Dying to have Known, Simply Raw, > Food > Matters. > > When I was in my Computer Store, and ate out at Quiznos, Cornerstone, > Pac Ave etc every day - I was the poster boy for the Standard American > Diet. And I topped 225 lbs. Today I am a Vegetarian. I stopped > drinking soda and try to stay away from processed foods. especially > HFCS. I quit eating all meat and instead eat tons of veggies and > fruit. Organic if I can afford it and as locally grown as possible. > New Seasons has a really good selection. Fred Meyer's not too bad > either. Safeway? I avoid altogether. Winco's not too bad but you > gotta watch what you are buying and know where it coming from. > > I said I topped 225 pounds. My weight today is 188lbs. That's a net > loss of 37 pounds. And if I can do it - anyone can do it. > > The Standard American Diet is killing us. Heart Disease, Cancer, > Diabetes, Obesity, Osteoporosis - So now let's genetically alter some > genes and see what that does to us. I like being a Guinea Pig > > Good article Martha > > > > Martha Khoury wrote: >> How to know which is which... (Found this interesting tidbit on Dr. >> Mercola's Newsletter.) --MK >> >> The little stickers on fruits and vegetables have digits that let you >> know whether they're conventionally grown or organic, and if they're >> genetically modified (GM). There are many benefits to knowing this >> information: >> >> . The health risks -- GM foods have been in stores only since the >> 1990s, so the long-term health risks are unknown >> . The environmental risks -- Scientists are concerned that GMOs will >> reduce biodiversity >> . The taste benefits -- People all over the world agree that the >> range >> of possible flavors is greater without a few GM foods crowding out >> the >> many natural varieties >> >> Here's what you should look for: >> >> . A four-digit number means the produce is conventionally grown >> . A five-digit number beginning with 9 means it's organic >> . A five-digit number beginning with 8 means it's GM >> >> >> Sources: >> Ideal Bite January 30, 2009 >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 09:54:32 2009 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] free azalea & boxwood hedge Message-ID: <577465.36087.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> free azalea & boxwood hedges in front of Forest Grove Community School 1914 Pacific Av come on by and help yourself Vickie From jbcoops at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 10:15:59 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's Message-ID: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> My refrigerator died.? I looked online for a replacement at a number of sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's.? Sears had the one I wanted "on sale" for $1350.? However, Home Depot had the same fridge on "super sale" for $809.? I went to Van Dyke's and talked to Pete, the owner.? He's a great guy and Van Dyke's is a great store... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy a major appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area.? Why?? Because they *price match the best sales item you can find*!? That's reason #1.? There are others. The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys Bob and Larry) are excellent.? Furthermore (need I even say this?) they're local and we're helping our local business and economy rather than a huge corporation..? They've been around for quite a while and I hope for a long time to come.? If anything ever goes wrong with my fridge I know I can count on them.? So why shop anywhere else?? Go online and find the best deal you can, whether it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, etc. and talk to Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's!? They also have a smattering of used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned themselves, if you are really on a tight budget. The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have to wait a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not a huge warehouse store and may have to have it shipped.? Believe me, the wait is worth it!? VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) Regards, Jeff Cooper From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 10 11:04:30 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:04:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's References: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <259A8F1D0B0A4737A578398C941CB71D@gerianehzkfhvy> Good plug, Jeff! Over the years we've had to replace our washing machine and dishwasher. We went to Van Dyke's each time and never regretted the service or the products! Plus, we liked keeping it local. : ) Have also had a small repair done on the clothes dryer done through Van Dyke's years ago, even though it was an old one not originally bought there. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Cooper" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's My refrigerator died. I looked online for a replacement at a number of sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's. Sears had the one I wanted "on sale" for $1350. However, Home Depot had the same fridge on "super sale" for $809. I went to Van Dyke's and talked to Pete, the owner. He's a great guy and Van Dyke's is a great store... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy a major appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area. Why? Because they *price match the best sales item you can find*! That's reason #1. There are others. The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys Bob and Larry) are excellent. Furthermore (need I even say this?) they're local and we're helping our local business and economy rather than a huge corporation.. They've been around for quite a while and I hope for a long time to come. If anything ever goes wrong with my fridge I know I can count on them. So why shop anywhere else? Go online and find the best deal you can, whether it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, etc. and talk to Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's! They also have a smattering of used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned themselves, if you are really on a tight budget. The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have to wait a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not a huge warehouse store and may have to have it shipped. Believe me, the wait is worth it! VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) Regards, Jeff Cooper _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 10 11:15:11 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:15:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's In-Reply-To: <259A8F1D0B0A4737A578398C941CB71D@gerianehzkfhvy> References: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <259A8F1D0B0A4737A578398C941CB71D@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: "Buy from your neighbors" is the only way to slow down the "Wal- Martizing" of our world. Walt On Mar 10, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Geri wrote: > Good plug, Jeff! > > Over the years we've had to replace our washing machine and > dishwasher. We went to Van Dyke's each time and never regretted the > service or the products! Plus, we liked keeping it local. : ) > Have also had a small repair done on the clothes dryer done through > Van Dyke's years ago, even though it was an old one not originally > bought there. > > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Cooper" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's > > > My refrigerator died. I looked online for a replacement at a number > of sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's. Sears had the one > I wanted "on sale" for $1350. However, Home Depot had the same > fridge on "super sale" for $809. I went to Van Dyke's and talked to > Pete, the owner. He's a great guy and Van Dyke's is a great > store... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy a > major appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area. Why? > Because they *price match the best sales item you can find*! That's > reason #1. There are others. > > The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys > Bob and Larry) are excellent. Furthermore (need I even say this?) > they're local and we're helping our local business and economy > rather than a huge corporation.. They've been around for quite a > while and I hope for a long time to come. If anything ever goes > wrong with my fridge I know I can count on them. So why shop > anywhere else? Go online and find the best deal you can, whether > it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, etc. and talk to > Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's! They also have a smattering of > used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned themselves, > if you are really on a tight budget. > > The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have > to wait a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not > a huge warehouse store and may have to have it shipped. Believe me, > the wait is worth it! > > VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 11:21:04 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] question In-Reply-To: <463747.52354.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <463747.52354.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <629843.41555.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Interesting tidbit . . . I phoned a title company we've used in the past and asked them about title insurance. What the rep. said is that almost every lending institution requires a title search/insurance. She said it wasn't 100% that *ALL* lending institutions require it but she stated that in her years in the business, there's been few exceptions, and that goes for a refinance as well. Whether it be a new loan, a refinance or multiple refinances of the same property, each time almost all lending institutions require the title search/insurance. In thinking about a title search on a refinance, I won't even BEGIN to go down the rat-hole of a "what if" scenario where a refinance title search found something the original home loan title search did not. Wouldn't that potentially be a nightmare? YIKES!! And btw, I never did phone Mr. Emmert. I thought it best to leave that to the investigative reporting pro's like Mr. Schrag. :-) Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Jeff Cooper To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 5:34:14 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] question It seems likely this is going to end up in the courts. If he *did* a title search and *was* informed of the lien then he has no one to blame but himself and obviously should be on the hook for the entire bill since he's been ducking payment. If he *did* a title search and *wasn't* informed of the lien then the title company will be on the hook for the payment. Whether or not they'd be liable for the interest is of course debatable. It seems that the City of Cornelius will have to prove when notice was first sent, and what subsequent notices were sent. If he *didn't* do a title search then my guess is it will still end up in the courts and Cornelius will still have to give proof of notice, especially in regards to the $200+K of interest payments. One thing I'd like to add to this story is it seems strange to me that landowners are on the hook for sewer improvements near their properties in Cornelius. I'm glad that here in Forest Grove we're not charged above and beyond our monthly bill for sewer (uh... or *are* we!?). Again, the only follow-up I'm likely to do is right here! Regards, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redhead854 at msn.com Tue Mar 10 11:23:51 2009 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:23:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? Message-ID: Greetings all, I heard something that happened at the School board meeting last night and I am just wondering if anyone has any information. Mario Alba Resigned Last night. Mario is Neil Armstrong's Principal. Does anyone know why?, What direction the school is going?, What timeline for replacement? and IF and HOW parents can become involved in helping the district choose a new principal? It seems to come out of the blue, At the last Community hall meeting he seemed resolute that he was going to be there next year. We were discussing having some kind of advanced Language Arts classes instead of the "Honors Contract". IMO Math at the JR high has been divided and kids put in a level that challenges each student instead of all the kids sitting in the same classes with the teacher challenging them to the level of the lowest student. However currently Social Studies & Language Arts have not. Our Teachers are great, but the district cant really expect them to teach to all levels by using the technique differentiation. We have too many students in each class room for that to work. We have too many students who are in need of something to help them behave better in school. My daughter had a Honors contract in each of these classes, but became very disgruntled and upset and mad because the teachers only had time to teach the non honors items, and then just "toss" the honors kids their extra work, or in Social studies - the non honors kids had more choices of topics to write about and the honors kids were forced to choose from three obscure and topics (that my daughter had no interest-when she wanted to write about a non honors topic she was told she couldnt and it KILLED her interest in the project). Anyway, my daughter is now going to a school near her Dad, its a Charter School that has about 20 8th graders in it. Its very sad for me, But, my daughter seems happier in that atmosphere so far. Regards, Holly From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 10 11:35:43 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:35:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's In-Reply-To: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A54F605-2192-4571-B116-68DE6685BBB5@verizon.net> I whole heartedly agree! When we moved to Forest Grove we started shopping there. We brought our old appliances with us and so far we have replaced a washer, dryer, refrigerator, dishwasher and microwave with new ones from Van Dyke's. And we have been very pleased over the years. The dishwasher needed something replaced in the panel and they came out to fix it. : ) Yes, we paid the service charge but that was only fair. Later when something wasn't quite right with the microwave they were very friendly and said we could avoid the service charge if we brought it in. Isn't is great for an appliance store to tell you how you can pay them less!!!!! When our stove eventually goes we will go back to Van Dyke's and save ourselves the drudgery of shopping all over the place. Katie On Mar 10, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > My refrigerator died. I looked online for a replacement at a > number of sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's. Sears had > the one I wanted "on sale" for $1350. However, Home Depot had the > same fridge on "super sale" for $809. I went to Van Dyke's and > talked to Pete, the owner. He's a great guy and Van Dyke's is a > great store... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy > a major appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area. Why? > Because they *price match the best sales item you can find*! > That's reason #1. There are others. > > The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys > Bob and Larry) are excellent. Furthermore (need I even say this?) > they're local and we're helping our local business and economy > rather than a huge corporation.. They've been around for quite a > while and I hope for a long time to come. If anything ever goes > wrong with my fridge I know I can count on them. So why shop > anywhere else? Go online and find the best deal you can, whether > it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, etc. and talk to > Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's! They also have a smattering of > used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned themselves, > if you are really on a tight budget. > > The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have > to wait a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not > a huge warehouse store and may have to have it shipped. Believe > me, the wait is worth it! > > VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 11:33:29 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Book discussion group tonight 3/10, 6:30 PM In-Reply-To: <629843.41555.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20659.90743.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Join in a discussion group this evening at The Forest Grove City library about the book, "The Stubborn Twig", from 6:30 PM to 8 PM. Even if you haven't read the book it will be a most interesting discussion! Below is some info about the book and the author: The Stubborm Twig A factual account of three generations of a Japanese-American family living in the Pacific Northwest. It begins in 1903, when Masuo Yasui arrived in Hood River, Oregon, to seek his fortune. This part of the story is similar to other immigrants' tales-years of hard work, loneliness, and struggles with a new language and customs. The striking distinction appears around 1919, with the rise of anti-Japanese sentiment. Yasui, his brother, their wives, and children had sacrificed much to establish a thriving general store and owned several orchards. Yasui, who spoke fluent English, was the acknowledged leader of the Japanese community in the area and an active member of the orchardists' cooperatives, the Methodist Church, and the Rotary Club. His family continued to have great success despite discrimination. Their lives were painfully disrupted, however, on December 7, 1941. Yasui was arrested as a spy and imprisoned for the rest of the war; his relatives were scattered and some were interned. This book puts human faces and emotions to the events of that period. Readers learn how racism and internment continued to affect the choices and decisions of second-generation family members. Part sociological study, part American history, part family saga, this title will make a significant addition to any library. - Penny Stevens, Fairfax County Public Library, VA About the Author: Lauren Kessler is the author of five works of narrative nonfiction, including Dancing with Rose, Washington Post bestseller Clever Girl, Los Angeles Times bestseller The Happy Bottom Riding Club, Full Court Press and Oregon Book Award winner Stubborn Twig. Stubborn Twig was chosen as the book for all Oregon to read in honor of the state's 2009 sesquicentennial. Thanks. Alana From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 10 12:03:19 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:03:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's In-Reply-To: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I prefer Hutchinss Appliance in Hillsboro. I could give you the long story. But lets say that a better price and service covers the whole story. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jeff Cooper > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:16 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's > > > My refrigerator died.? I looked online for a replacement at a number of > sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's.? Sears had the one I wanted > "on sale" for $1350.? However, Home Depot had the same fridge on "super > sale" for $809.? I went to Van Dyke's and talked to Pete, the owner.? He's > a great guy and Van Dyke's is a great store... in fact it's the *best and > only store you should buy a major appliance from if you live in the Forest > Grove area.? Why?? Because they *price match the best sales item you can > find*!? That's reason #1.? There are others. > > The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys Bob > and Larry) are excellent.? Furthermore (need I even say this?) they're > local and we're helping our local business and economy rather than a huge > corporation..? They've been around for quite a while and I hope for a long > time to come.? If anything ever goes wrong with my fridge I know I can > count on them.? So why shop anywhere else?? Go online and find the best > deal you can, whether it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, > etc. and talk to Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's!? They also have a > smattering of used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned > themselves, if you are really on a tight budget. > > The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have to wait > a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not a huge > warehouse store and may have to have it shipped.? Believe me, the wait is > worth it!? > > VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 10 16:53:05 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:53:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's In-Reply-To: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <337308.30359.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > ... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy a major > appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area. Why? ... All the reasons were accurate. And, VanDyke contributes to the community over an above their commercial activities. We have had great results there. Another of our community assets that deserve our investment because it pays good dividends. David From nuzriter at aol.com Tue Mar 10 18:59:59 2009 From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:59:59 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] lawn questions Message-ID: <8CB7004378AF48F-7E4-1D3D@webmail-db14.sysops.aol.com> I'm considering putting synthetic lawn in my backyard. Tired of dog tracking in mud. Anyone with any experience in this product? Questions include: do weeds grow through it? I have birch tree roots in the yard (the company says they lay the turf over the roots). Is this ok for the tree? Should I have the trees removed (about 40 feet tall)? Linda From lisetteromig at comcast.net Tue Mar 10 21:35:43 2009 From: lisetteromig at comcast.net (Lisette Romig) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:35:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? References: Message-ID: <6AF05889ACDF4F82BC6EB8787AA6A86A@DBCGYM81> Hi Holly, I was at the School Board meeting last night. I came late and left early, but I did not hear anything about Mario Alba resigning. I only came for the TAG parents group statement in favor of honors classes at NAMS. The TAG group postponed their statement presentation to the next Board meeting. Naomi (Dilley Principal) did report on what the group has been doing. Some parents were present and made similar comments like yours. Honors contracts do not work at the middle school level. Bring honor classes back for Language Arts and other subjects at NAMS. TAG kids are not served. The TAG parent group will make an official statement next Board meeting. Come if you can. Lisette Romig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holly Di" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? > > > Greetings all, I heard something that happened at the School board meeting > last night and I am just wondering if > anyone has any information. > > Mario Alba Resigned Last night. Mario is Neil Armstrong's Principal. > > Does anyone know why?, What direction the school is going?, What > timeline for replacement? and IF and HOW > parents can become involved in helping the district choose a new > principal? > > It seems to come out of the blue, At the last Community hall meeting he > seemed resolute that he was going to > be there next year. We were discussing having some kind of advanced > Language Arts classes instead of the > "Honors Contract". > > > IMO Math at the JR high has been divided and kids put in a level that > challenges each student > instead of all the kids sitting in the same classes with the teacher > challenging them to the level of the lowest student. > However currently Social Studies & Language Arts have not. Our Teachers > are great, but the district cant really expect > them to teach to all levels by using the technique differentiation. We > have too many students in each class room for that > to work. We have too many students who are in need of something to help > them behave better in school. > > My daughter had a Honors contract in each of these classes, but became > very disgruntled and upset and mad because > the teachers only had time to teach the non honors items, and then just > "toss" the honors kids their extra work, or in > Social studies - the non honors kids had more choices of topics to write > about and the honors kids were forced to > choose from three obscure and topics (that my daughter had no > interest-when she wanted to write about a non honors > topic she was told she couldnt and it KILLED her interest in the project). > > > Anyway, my daughter is now going to a school near her Dad, its a Charter > School that has about 20 8th graders in it. > Its very sad for me, But, my daughter seems happier in that atmosphere so > far. > > Regards, > > Holly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 22:12:49 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Library Program: OR at 150....3/31, 7 PM In-Reply-To: <6AF05889ACDF4F82BC6EB8787AA6A86A@DBCGYM81> Message-ID: <780463.58841.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> PRESS RELEASE: Library Event Oregon at 150: The Role of Ethnic Communities 2009 is the 100th year birthday of the Forest Grove City Library and the 150th year birthday of the state of Oregon! To celebrate both events, the Friends of the Forest Grove City Library present ?Oregon at 150: The Role of Ethnic Communities? on Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7 PM in the Forest Grove Community Auditorium, 1915 Main St., Forest Grove. Alfonso Lopez-Vasquez, Assistant Professor of Education and Assistant to the Provost for Diversity at Pacific University will discuss Native and Latino people?s contributions to Oregon. To share the story of Japanese-Americans, Linda Tamura, author and Education Department professor at Willamette University joins the panel. And to give her impression of the African-American experience in Oregon will be Hannah Hurdle-Toomey, the last surviving daughter of an American slave. The discussion moderator and futurist for the evening will be Dr. Jim Moore; Professor of Politics and Government at Pacific University, Dr. Moore is also a commentator and pollster for KOIN. As part of the event, students from the Forest Grove School district are participating in an essay and art contest to identify significant contributions of Oregon's many ethnic minorities over the last 150 years. The best entries will be awarded cash prizes. Last and most exciting, our community?s citizens are invited to take part in a project to videotape individual?s stories of their families or ancestors experiences in Oregon. Refreshments will be served. This event is free. For questions or to be part of the videotaping contact the Forest Grove City Library at 503-992-3247. Thanks, Alana From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 11 02:22:24 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 02:22:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Worth reading . . . . In-Reply-To: <49B562D1.4090004@jurislex.com> References: <49B562D1.4090004@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <47EB312B-04FA-4C70-8D40-0159C65B987B@verizon.net> Well, at least the memo wasn't intended for public review. It was only intended to authorize government action. Heaven forbid that the public should know what they intended to do. Even in broad terms, "preserve and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" means to protect the rights delineated in the Constitution against violation by government agents. Otherwise, the bad guys win. They have destroyed what makes our government special. David On Mar 9, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Constitutional Law > > Law Profs Shocked By DOJ Memos About Bush Presidential Powers > > Posted Mar 4, 2009, 03:52 pm CDT > By Martha Neil > > Law professors with differing political perspectives agree on one > thing after seeing the recently released U.S. Department of Justice > legal memos outlining the scope of presidential power during the > Bush administration: They went too far. > > Written over a several-year period after the Sept. 11, 2001 > terrorist attacks, the since-countermanded memos created what Jack > Balkin of Yale Law School calls a "theory of presidential > dictatorship," reports the Chicago Tribune. Because the entire > world was considered a battlefield, Bush was determined to have > enormous powers in any situation involving the military and an > identified enemy. > > "I agree with the left on this one," Orin Kerr of George Washington > University tells the newspaper. The approach taken by the memos > "was simply not a plausible reading of the case law." > > Additional coverage: > > ABAJournal.com: "DOJ Memo Allowed Free Speech Curbs, Military Force > Against US Terrorists" > > ABAJournal.com: "John Yoo Says His Memos ?Were Not for Public > Consumption?" > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From a_tom_51 at juno.com Wed Mar 11 08:20:47 2009 From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:20:47 GMT Subject: [Grovenet] lawn questions Message-ID: <20090311.082047.1049.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Up near the top of Forest Gale Heights is a nice white house with a synthetic lawn. It looks very nice. Tom Alexander ____________________________________________________________ Free information on Digital Photography. Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmSLv97Nz03A0STcBUCdlEXXMhwort0SCkz74iZJipnVeeztpFe/ From zipdigity at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:13:19 2009 From: zipdigity at gmail.com (Zip Digity) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:13:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck Message-ID: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors around town? They aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is recycling; we should be thanking them for helping to preserve our earth and picking up after those inconsiderable litterers out there! And if they want to buy a Tall One with their money, well I say More Power To'em! From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 11 12:35:30 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:35:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005501c9a280$8a629580$9f27c080$@com> > Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors > around town? Perhaps because they are drunks and/or smell bad? > They aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is > recycling; we should be thanking them for helping to > preserve our earth and picking up after those > inconsiderable litterers out there! You give too much credit where it probably isn't due. They are not picking up bottles for the greater good of the earth. They are not intentionally recycling. They are collecting bottles with deposit for the financial gain. Notice they don't recycle the bottles without a refund. > And if they want to buy a Tall One with their money, > well I say More Power To'em! Sure, keep feeding that alcoholism... Agreed that litterers suck. From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 11 14:27:13 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:27:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> Amen! Perhaps only one mistake, mental illness, physical accident or loss of a job separates them everyone elses. One single factor can make all the difference between getting by and scraping for existence. If they remain homeless, unmedicated or addicted, the more shame to the rest of us. On Mar 11, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Zip Digity wrote: > Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors around town? > They > aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is recycling; we should be > thanking them for helping to preserve our earth and picking up > after those > inconsiderable litterers out there! And if they want to buy a Tall > One with > their money, well I say More Power To'em! > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From theresacus at yahoo.com Wed Mar 11 15:09:40 2009 From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <534680.76117.qm@web34504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have gotten all of my appliances at Van Dyke's and agree with Jeff.? Van Dykes rulz!? When I have had a problem with one they are out there that day or have found parts to an old old old thermador oven that I have.?Most people tell you to buy a new oven and put that in your vintage home.??I have even given them keys to the house to go in and do the repair work.? I would not do that for just anyone.? ? Theresa Carter --- On Wed, 3/11/09, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 12:00 PM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's (Steven) 2. Re: Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's (jo.david) 3. lawn questions (nuzriter at aol.com) 4. Re: Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? (Lisette Romig) 5. Library Program: OR at 150....3/31, 7 PM (Alana Graham) 6. Re: Worth reading . . . . (jo.david) 7. Re: lawn questions (a_tom_51 at juno.com) 8. mean people suck (Zip Digity) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:03:19 -0700 From: "Steven" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I prefer Hutchinss Appliance in Hillsboro. I could give you the long story. But lets say that a better price and service covers the whole story. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jeff Cooper > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:16 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's > > > My refrigerator died.? I looked online for a replacement at a number of > sites, including Sears, Home Depot and Lowe's.? Sears had the one I wanted > "on sale" for $1350.? However, Home Depot had the same fridge on "super > sale" for $809.? I went to Van Dyke's and talked to Pete, the owner.? He's > a great guy and Van Dyke's is a great store... in fact it's the *best and > only store you should buy a major appliance from if you live in the Forest > Grove area.? Why?? Because they *price match the best sales item you can > find*!? That's reason #1.? There are others. > > The Van Dyke's staff (Becky, Teresa in the office and delivery guys Bob > and Larry) are excellent.? Furthermore (need I even say this?) they're > local and we're helping our local business and economy rather than a huge > corporation..? They've been around for quite a while and I hope for a long > time to come.? If anything ever goes wrong with my fridge I know I can > count on them.? So why shop anywhere else?? Go online and find the best > deal you can, whether it's for a tv, washer/dryer, fridge, dishwasher, > etc. and talk to Pete and buy it from Van Dyke's!? They also have a > smattering of used appliances in stock which they have reconditioned > themselves, if you are really on a tight budget. > > The one and only disadvantage to Van Dyke's is that you might have to wait > a couple of days for it to be delivered, since they're not a huge > warehouse store and may have to have it shipped.? Believe me, the wait is > worth it!? > > VAN DYKE'S RULZ!!! (my kids made me say that) > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:53:05 -0700 From: "jo.david" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why you should *only* buy appliances at Van Dyke's To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 10, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > ... in fact it's the *best and only store you should buy a major > appliance from if you live in the Forest Grove area. Why? ... All the reasons were accurate. And, VanDyke contributes to the community over an above their commercial activities. We have had great results there. Another of our community assets that deserve our investment because it pays good dividends. David ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:59:59 -0400 From: nuzriter at aol.com Subject: [Grovenet] lawn questions To: grovenet at rdrop.com Message-ID: <8CB7004378AF48F-7E4-1D3D at webmail-db14.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm considering putting synthetic lawn in my backyard. Tired of dog tracking in mud. Anyone with any experience in this product? Questions include: do weeds grow through it? I have birch tree roots in the yard (the company says they lay the turf over the roots). Is this ok for the tree? Should I have the trees removed (about 40 feet tall)? Linda ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:35:43 -0700 From: "Lisette Romig" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <6AF05889ACDF4F82BC6EB8787AA6A86A at DBCGYM81> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Holly, I was at the School Board meeting last night. I came late and left early, but I did not hear anything about Mario Alba resigning. I only came for the TAG parents group statement in favor of honors classes at NAMS. The TAG group postponed their statement presentation to the next Board meeting. Naomi (Dilley Principal) did report on what the group has been doing. Some parents were present and made similar comments like yours. Honors contracts do not work at the middle school level. Bring honor classes back for Language Arts and other subjects at NAMS. TAG kids are not served. The TAG parent group will make an official statement next Board meeting. Come if you can. Lisette Romig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holly Di" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? > > > Greetings all, I heard something that happened at the School board meeting > last night and I am just wondering if > anyone has any information. > > Mario Alba Resigned Last night. Mario is Neil Armstrong's Principal. > > Does anyone know why?, What direction the school is going?, What > timeline for replacement? and IF and HOW > parents can become involved in helping the district choose a new > principal? > > It seems to come out of the blue, At the last Community hall meeting he > seemed resolute that he was going to > be there next year. We were discussing having some kind of advanced > Language Arts classes instead of the > "Honors Contract". > > > IMO Math at the JR high has been divided and kids put in a level that > challenges each student > instead of all the kids sitting in the same classes with the teacher > challenging them to the level of the lowest student. > However currently Social Studies & Language Arts have not. Our Teachers > are great, but the district cant really expect > them to teach to all levels by using the technique differentiation. We > have too many students in each class room for that > to work. We have too many students who are in need of something to help > them behave better in school. > > My daughter had a Honors contract in each of these classes, but became > very disgruntled and upset and mad because > the teachers only had time to teach the non honors items, and then just > "toss" the honors kids their extra work, or in > Social studies - the non honors kids had more choices of topics to write > about and the honors kids were forced to > choose from three obscure and topics (that my daughter had no > interest-when she wanted to write about a non honors > topic she was told she couldnt and it KILLED her interest in the project). > > > Anyway, my daughter is now going to a school near her Dad, its a Charter > School that has about 20 8th graders in it. > Its very sad for me, But, my daughter seems happier in that atmosphere so > far. > > Regards, > > Holly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:12:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Alana Graham Subject: [Grovenet] Library Program: OR at 150....3/31, 7 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <780463.58841.qm at web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 PRESS RELEASE: Library Event Oregon at 150: The Role of Ethnic Communities 2009 is the 100th year birthday of the Forest Grove City Library and the 150th year birthday of the state of Oregon! To celebrate both events, the Friends of the Forest Grove City Library present ?Oregon at 150: The Role of Ethnic Communities? on Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7 PM in the Forest Grove Community Auditorium, 1915 Main St., Forest Grove. Alfonso Lopez-Vasquez, Assistant Professor of Education and Assistant to the Provost for Diversity at Pacific University will discuss Native and Latino people?s contributions to Oregon. To share the story of Japanese-Americans, Linda Tamura, author and Education Department professor at Willamette University joins the panel. And to give her impression of the African-American experience in Oregon will be Hannah Hurdle-Toomey, the last surviving daughter of an American slave. The discussion moderator and futurist for the evening will be Dr. Jim Moore; Professor of Politics and Government at Pacific University, Dr. Moore is also a commentator and pollster for KOIN. As part of the event, students from the Forest Grove School district are participating in an essay and art contest to identify significant contributions of Oregon's many ethnic minorities over the last 150 years. The best entries will be awarded cash prizes. Last and most exciting, our community?s citizens are invited to take part in a project to videotape individual?s stories of their families or ancestors experiences in Oregon. Refreshments will be served. This event is free. For questions or to be part of the videotaping contact the Forest Grove City Library at 503-992-3247. Thanks, Alana ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 02:22:24 -0700 From: "jo.david" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Worth reading . . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <47EB312B-04FA-4C70-8D40-0159C65B987B at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Well, at least the memo wasn't intended for public review. It was only intended to authorize government action. Heaven forbid that the public should know what they intended to do. Even in broad terms, "preserve and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" means to protect the rights delineated in the Constitution against violation by government agents. Otherwise, the bad guys win. They have destroyed what makes our government special. David On Mar 9, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Constitutional Law > > Law Profs Shocked By DOJ Memos About Bush Presidential Powers > > Posted Mar 4, 2009, 03:52 pm CDT > By Martha Neil > > Law professors with differing political perspectives agree on one > thing after seeing the recently released U.S. Department of Justice > legal memos outlining the scope of presidential power during the > Bush administration: They went too far. > > Written over a several-year period after the Sept. 11, 2001 > terrorist attacks, the since-countermanded memos created what Jack > Balkin of Yale Law School calls a "theory of presidential > dictatorship," reports the Chicago Tribune. Because the entire > world was considered a battlefield, Bush was determined to have > enormous powers in any situation involving the military and an > identified enemy. > > "I agree with the left on this one," Orin Kerr of George Washington > University tells the newspaper. The approach taken by the memos > "was simply not a plausible reading of the case law." > > Additional coverage: > > ABAJournal.com: "DOJ Memo Allowed Free Speech Curbs, Military Force > Against US Terrorists" > > ABAJournal.com: "John Yoo Says His Memos ?Were Not for Public > Consumption?" > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:20:47 GMT From: "a_tom_51 at juno.com" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] lawn questions To: grovenet at rdrop.com Message-ID: <20090311.082047.1049.0 at webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Up near the top of Forest Gale Heights is a nice white house with a synthetic lawn. It looks very nice. Tom Alexander ____________________________________________________________ Free information on Digital Photography. Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmSLv97Nz03A0STcBUCdlEXXMhwort0SCkz74iZJipnVeeztpFe/ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:13:19 -0800 From: Zip Digity Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck To: grovenet at rdrop.com Message-ID: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors around town? They aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is recycling; we should be thanking them for helping to preserve our earth and picking up after those inconsiderable litterers out there! And if they want to buy a Tall One with their money, well I say More Power To'em! ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 *************************************** From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 11 15:22:17 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:22:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> Message-ID: <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> > Perhaps only one mistake, mental illness, physical accident > or loss of a job separates them everyone elses. For some, perhaps. Many are there by choice because in their mind it frees them from the constraints of society. All the free handouts from those that mean well just make that sort of avoidance doable rather than dubious. > If they remain homeless, unmedicated or addicted, the more > shame to the rest of us. I respectfully disagree. Each person is individually responsible for their own destiny. Someone else's life is not my responsibility. I already have enough to concern myself with just keeping my own on track. I'm most definitely not going to take on an shame for someone else not making better for themselves. From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 11 16:54:34 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> Perhaps only one mistake, mental illness, physical accident >> or loss of a job separates them everyone elses. > > For some, perhaps. Many are there by choice because in their mind > it frees > them from the constraints of society. All the free handouts from > those that > mean well just make that sort of avoidance doable rather than dubious. Um... I find that just a little unlikely. Who would choose to live in wretched poverty, discomfort, insecurity and public disdain? Only those too mentally disturbed to conform to the constraints of society, or those who are there through no choice of their own. Vietnam vets who lived in the woods might have been patriots or even heroes, but that didn't mean they could hold down a job or keep their inner demons under control. With the winding down of the Iraq war, I think we shall see more veterans shunted outside the constraints of society. "Support our troops" should be more than a cheerleader's slogan. > >> If they remain homeless, unmedicated or addicted, the more >> shame to the rest of us. > > I respectfully disagree. Each person is individually responsible > for their > own destiny. True-- within the limits of his own abilities and situation. If he is mentally disturbed, does that mean we can cut him off from treatment because he has no money? If (through peer pressure or stupid teen bravado), he has become addicted, shall we toss him out with the garbage? If, through no fault of his own, a family man's lifelong vocation has been "outsourced" to East Rattbaggistan, shall we sneeringly tell him to "get a job" where there are no jobs? In short, are adult humans "disposable," while "pre-born" humans are not? > Someone else's life is not my responsibility. I already have > enough to concern myself with just keeping my own on track. I'm most > definitely not going to take on an shame for someone else not > making better > for themselves. "Send not not to know for whom the bell tolls..." As this current recession continues, i think we shall see more and more people-- even educated, mentally healthy and conscientious people-- in desperate straits. Are we comfortable folk of a different species? From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 11 17:19:58 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:19:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Oh what the might can do Message-ID: http://www.minnpost.com/ericblackblog/2009/03/11/7310/ investigative_reporter_seymour_hersh_describes_executive_assassination_r ing A short review of "Executive Action", as in killing people. Amazing what a band of "strict Constitutionists" will do. David From isis23ra at yahoo.com Wed Mar 11 17:24:13 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> Message-ID: <877990.97295.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I work in a medical clinic and see people who have had illness that destroyed their lives and those around them through no fault of their own. It can happen to anyone - anytime. A little kindness can make a big difference and what goes around comes around. And then there is that Golden Rule..."do unto others..... Mean people do suck but they also hurt themselves. Alana --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Walt Wentz wrote: > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 2:27 PM > Amen! > Perhaps only one mistake, mental illness, physical > accident or loss > of a job separates them everyone elses. One single factor > can make > all the difference between getting by and scraping for > existence. If > they remain homeless, unmedicated or addicted, the more > shame to the > rest of us. > On Mar 11, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Zip Digity wrote: > > > Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors > around town? > > They > > aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is > recycling; we should be > > thanking them for helping to preserve our earth and > picking up > > after those > > inconsiderable litterers out there! And if they want > to buy a Tall > > One with > > their money, well I say More Power To'em! > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Wed Mar 11 19:53:57 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:53:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? In-Reply-To: <6AF05889ACDF4F82BC6EB8787AA6A86A@DBCGYM81> References: <6AF05889ACDF4F82BC6EB8787AA6A86A@DBCGYM81> Message-ID: <001c01c9a2bd$ca260de0$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Just noticed this query. It's true http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=123682605741142400 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Lisette Romig Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? Hi Holly, I was at the School Board meeting last night. I came late and left early, but I did not hear anything about Mario Alba resigning. I only came for the TAG parents group statement in favor of honors classes at NAMS. The TAG group postponed their statement presentation to the next Board meeting. Naomi (Dilley Principal) did report on what the group has been doing. Some parents were present and made similar comments like yours. Honors contracts do not work at the middle school level. Bring honor classes back for Language Arts and other subjects at NAMS. TAG kids are not served. The TAG parent group will make an official statement next Board meeting. Come if you can. Lisette Romig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holly Di" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Mario Alba NAMS principal resigned last night????? > > > Greetings all, I heard something that happened at the School board meeting > last night and I am just wondering if > anyone has any information. > > Mario Alba Resigned Last night. Mario is Neil Armstrong's Principal. > > Does anyone know why?, What direction the school is going?, What > timeline for replacement? and IF and HOW > parents can become involved in helping the district choose a new > principal? > > It seems to come out of the blue, At the last Community hall meeting he > seemed resolute that he was going to > be there next year. We were discussing having some kind of advanced > Language Arts classes instead of the > "Honors Contract". > > > IMO Math at the JR high has been divided and kids put in a level that > challenges each student > instead of all the kids sitting in the same classes with the teacher > challenging them to the level of the lowest student. > However currently Social Studies & Language Arts have not. Our Teachers > are great, but the district cant really expect > them to teach to all levels by using the technique differentiation. We > have too many students in each class room for that > to work. We have too many students who are in need of something to help > them behave better in school. > > My daughter had a Honors contract in each of these classes, but became > very disgruntled and upset and mad because > the teachers only had time to teach the non honors items, and then just > "toss" the honors kids their extra work, or in > Social studies - the non honors kids had more choices of topics to write > about and the honors kids were forced to > choose from three obscure and topics (that my daughter had no > interest-when she wanted to write about a non honors > topic she was told she couldnt and it KILLED her interest in the project). > > > Anyway, my daughter is now going to a school near her Dad, its a Charter > School that has about 20 8th graders in it. > Its very sad for me, But, my daughter seems happier in that atmosphere so > far. > > Regards, > > Holly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 11 20:20:15 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:20:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <005501c9a280$8a629580$9f27c080$@com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <005501c9a280$8a629580$9f27c080$@com> Message-ID: <06BB0B45-D6F1-474F-931B-B566B1CACF80@verizon.net> On Mar 11, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Why are so many people mean to the bottle collectors around town? > They aren't hurting anyone, all they are doing is recycling; we > should be thanking them for helping to preserve our earth and > picking up after those inconsiderable litterers out there! > And if they want to buy a Tall One with their money, well I say > More Power To'em! Well, I cannot speak for anyone else. Possibly people in town cannot distinguish between those who walk the streets looking for bottles to recycle and those who walk the streets looking for metal to recycle. Metal that may not have been discarded, like the metal guard rails, aluminum roofing or copper wire that were actually serving a function before it was removed. Since we cannot watch our property all of the time, some people are suspicious of those who walk by and inspect our property for things that can be "recycled". One such incident involved someone who cut through a fence to remove aluminum roofing from property where we were working. David From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 09:58:07 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden--Everyone Welcome! In-Reply-To: <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> Message-ID: <9AEB5839-82A0-444F-8CA8-C4510BCA7069@teleport.com> This is just a reminder of an organizational meeting at my house, 1817 17th Avenue, Forest Grove, at 7 p.m. tonight. We will be assigning action committee positions and drafting a work plan to present to the city for the big garden plot they are offering us. Our next goal is to obtain liability coverage in time for the planting season. We are hoping to "piggyback" on some existing agency's insurance (paying our share of the premium, of course) until we can get our own coverage lined up. We have decided, since we may not be able to get all the plots rented this first year, that any unclaimed ground will be planted with potatoes and other storage crops for the Food Bank, in addition to the "Plant-A-Row" contributions by individuals. Hope to see you here! Walt From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 10:28:25 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:28:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Advancing Local Sustainability with Chickens & Small Goats In-Reply-To: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <925800.71922.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F2DE60B-D53C-478E-A640-C4FF870126B2@teleport.com> This is just a reminder of an organizational meeting at my house, 1817 17th Avenue, Forest Grove, at 7 p.m. tonight. We will be assigning action committee positions and drafting a work plan to present to the city for the big garden plot they are offering us. Our next goal is to obtain liability coverage in time for the planting season. We are hoping to "piggyback" on some existing agency's insurance (paying our share of the premium, of course) until we can get our own coverage lined up. We have decided, since we may not be able to get all the plots rented this first year, that any unclaimed ground will be planted with potatoes and other storage crops for the Food Bank, in addition to the "Plant-A-Row" contributions by individuals. Hope to see you here! Walt P.S.: Did you meet Elizabeth Suh, of the Oregonian, at the latest City Council meeting?. Has she interviewed you about the backyard livestock ordinance? her e-mail, elizabethsuh at news.oregonian.com Phone number 294-5954, cell 887-7471 From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Mar 12 11:08:42 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:08:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> Message-ID: <011301c9a33d$9478d850$bd6a88f0$@com> > > For some, perhaps. Many are there by choice because in > > their mind it frees them from the constraints of society. > > All the free handouts from those that mean well just > > make that sort of avoidance doable rather than dubious. > > Um... I find that just a little unlikely. Who would choose > to live in wretched poverty, discomfort, insecurity and > public disdain? [...] Simply being unable to imagine it yourself does not, in fact, make it in any way unlikely. It only makes it unlikely for you. > [...] Only those too mentally disturbed to conform to the > constraints of society, or those who are there through no > choice of their own. [...] It doesn't require any clinical amount of mental disturbance to be unhappy with the constraints of society. Add to that the desire to "be your own man/woman" and a dash of "not much to lose" (ie, not much in the way of family) and you have a wonderful recipe for a career homeless. > Vietnam vets who lived in the woods might have been patriots > or even heroes, but that didn't mean they could hold down a > job or keep their inner demons under control. With the > winding down of the Iraq war, I think we shall see more > veterans shunted outside the constraints of society. > "Support our troops" should be more than a cheerleader's > slogan. I wasn't, in any way, talking about war veterans. However, that, in and of itself, isn't sufficient excuse. There are plenty that succeed despite a harrowing battle with depression, panic/anxiety issues, and other mental/emotional dysfunction. The difference is they *want* to get past that and are willing to give it their 100%. > True-- within the limits of his own abilities and situation. > If he is mentally disturbed, does that mean we can cut him > off from treatment because he has no money? [...] Can? Yes. Should? Maybe not. However, I don't want my tax dollars paying for his treatment and having my children's education, my community's policing, and other vital public dollar funded services being impacted for this individuals mental health care. > [...] If (through peer pressure or stupid teen bravado), he > has become addicted, shall we toss him out with the garbage? Shall? No. Want to, maybe? Sure. No program in the world can save him from himself if he doesn't want to be saved. Trying *anything* before he's reached bottom and become willing to give up the addiction and move on is a waste of time and money. Without consequences, he will have learned nothing and will relapse again and again and again. If, however, he chooses to continue using drugs, then he needs to face whatever consequences come his way by that loss of health, loss of family/friends, loss of property, incarceration, homelessness, being hungry, etc. ... whatever it takes to get him to the point of deciding enough is enough. We do him no favors by short-circuiting that process. A safety net makes using easy. > If, through no fault of his own, a family man's lifelong > vocation has been "outsourced" to East Rattbaggistan, shall > we sneeringly tell him to "get a job" where there are no > jobs? Certainly not. It's fairly clear from my original response that this was *not* the sort of individual I was referring to. However, what I *do* think is that if this family man chooses to sit for months and months collecting unemployment and isn't bothering to get back out there to look for another job (even one that doesn't pay anywhere near what he was earning before) then he's doing himself and his family no service. Mourn the loss of the job, shrug it off, polish the resume, and get back out there. Even in an economic climate like this there *are* jobs if you just stick to it and aren't too picky. > In short, are adult humans "disposable," while "pre-born" > humans are not? I haven't voiced my opinions on abortion and am unsure why that subject has been brought in to this debate. > As this current recession continues, i think we shall see > more and more people-- even educated, mentally healthy and > conscientious people-- in desperate straits. I agree. I only hope that the programs that are designed to help *these* sorts aren't being chewed through and used up by individuals who either are in that aspect of the system willingly, in the system because of mental illness or addiction, or otherwise abusing the system and thereby making it just that much harder for those that really do need the help and the ones for whom the help would be truly temporary. From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 12:41:41 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:41:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <011301c9a33d$9478d850$bd6a88f0$@com> References: <2f1a98fe0903111113v79732d3ch3d03713ea3ce7ad8@mail.gmail.com> <219FB06B-0F9F-4AB8-94B9-1FE0B56A18ED@teleport.com> <007201c9a297$d68b61f0$83a225d0$@com> <011301c9a33d$9478d850$bd6a88f0$@com> Message-ID: > Simply being unable to imagine it yourself does not, in fact, make > it in any > way unlikely. It only makes it unlikely for you. I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or intellectually compromised. > > It doesn't require any clinical amount of mental disturbance to be > unhappy > with the constraints of society. Add to that the desire to "be > your own > man/woman" and a dash of "not much to lose" (ie, not much in the > way of > family) and you have a wonderful recipe for a career homeless. Everyone resents the constraints of society! But I doubt the image of the carefree vagabond, the happy life of the open road, etc. really applies much these days, aside from some homeless teenagers. I've talked with several such, and even they seemed to have serious mental/emotional issues. Some older examples seem to be saddled with alsoholism, meth addiction (these are the metal thieves), schizophrenia, low IQ or brain damage. Increasingly, though, the homeless will be economic casualties, as in the Great Depression, when families fragmented as the young dropped out and took to the road searching for work. An instructive example could be France in the 17th-18th centuries, when starved vagabonds could be found behind every tree, and banditry was rife despite draconian laws. > > I wasn't, in any way, talking about war veterans. However, that, > in and of > itself, isn't sufficient excuse. There are plenty that succeed > despite a > harrowing battle with depression, panic/anxiety issues, and other > mental/emotional dysfunction. The difference is they *want* to get > past > that and are willing to give it their 100%. Sounds akin to Lamarkism-- the theory that giraffes got long necks because they "wanted" to eat leaves. Granted, laziness, criminal associates, bad socializing or low IQ will keep some people from seizing the opportunities in a changing economy. But if the economy is changing in the direction of limiting opportunity for everybody, "personal fault" becomes much less of a factor. > > Can? Yes. Should? Maybe not. However, I don't want my tax > dollars paying > for his treatment and having my children's education, my community's > policing, and other vital public dollar funded services being > impacted for > this individuals mental health care. As has been pointed out with drug addict recidivism, treatment is much cheaper and more effective than punishment. All of us (unless we are thoroughgoing survivalists and no-taxers) have to pay taxes for police protection, incarceration, etc. Those costs will keep climbing as long as the ranks of the homeless and the hopeless keep growing. Cheaper to eliminate the roots of the problem with rehabilitation, than to repeatedly clean up the eternal mess caused by one segment of the population. > >> [...] If (through peer pressure or stupid teen bravado), he >> has become addicted, shall we toss him out with the garbage? > > Shall? No. Want to, maybe? Sure. No program in the world can > save him > from himself if he doesn't want to be saved. Trying *anything* > before he's > reached bottom and become willing to give up the addiction and move > on is a > waste of time and money. Without consequences, he will have > learned nothing > and will relapse again and again and again. The success rate of Portland's "drug court" (now in danger of budget cuts) indicates that rehabilitation does work. Granted, it might work better when an addict is so demolished by years of drug abuse that his mind is crackers and his future limited, but it makes more sense (and costs much less in damage to the public weal) if he is salvaged when he still has some brain cells left and some years to live. > > If, however, he chooses to continue using drugs, then he needs to face > whatever consequences come his way by that loss of health, loss of > family/friends, loss of property, incarceration, homelessness, > being hungry, > etc. ... whatever it takes to get him to the point of deciding > enough is > enough. We do him no favors by short-circuiting that process. A > safety net > makes using easy. A safety net, in the form of endless handouts, certainly doesn't deter from drug use. However, "consequences" that include rehabilitation would reduce the expenses of future antisocial behavior, by eliminating the habit in a higher percentage of the addicts being apprehended. > Certainly not. It's fairly clear from my original response that > this was > *not* the sort of individual I was referring to. However, what I > *do* think > is that if this family man chooses to sit for months and months > collecting > unemployment and isn't bothering to get back out there to look for > another > job (even one that doesn't pay anywhere near what he was earning > before) > then he's doing himself and his family no service. Mourn the loss > of the > job, shrug it off, polish the resume, and get back out there. Even > in an > economic climate like this there *are* jobs if you just stick to it > and > aren't too picky. Yes and yes. With every lowering of the standard of family living, however, family housing and necessities become more insecure and (especially in large families) the odds of family disintegration and homelessness become higher. Ultimately, the only way to offset this trend is to increase the supply of "living wage" jobs. Lots of luck with that, so long as the giant corporations hold sway over our national economy! > > I haven't voiced my opinions on abortion and am unsure why that > subject has > been brought in to this debate. Only to make a point: Are human lives valuable in and of themselves, and if not, why not? Certainly one can argue that a decrepit stumblebum has much less social potential than a fetus, but WHO is to make that judgement? Seems to me this is a matter for individual consciences. > >> As this current recession continues, i think we shall see >> more and more people-- even educated, mentally healthy and >> conscientious people-- in desperate straits. > > I agree. I only hope that the programs that are designed to help > *these* > sorts aren't being chewed through and used up by individuals who > either are > in that aspect of the system willingly, in the system because of > mental > illness or addiction, or otherwise abusing the system and thereby > making it > just that much harder for those that really do need the help and > the ones > for whom the help would be truly temporary. Agreed. But those who are used to working, I think, will have family responsibilities that will bring them to the head of the line for assistance, and impel them to keep trying every option (including that normal family man in Florida who turned to bank robbery). The "outsiders" will less often meet the criteria for family assistance, but will also continue to afflict the rest of society with their own needs, until they are rehabilitated or die (note that their incarceration will only add to our shared tax burdens). For my part, I think reducing the pressure on working people, by any means possible, is one way of coping with the problem. If people are faced with ever-decreasing real income and ever-increasing costs, one option is to produce some of their essentials for themselves. So, support the Community Garden!!! (shameless plug) From zipdigity at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:38:24 2009 From: zipdigity at gmail.com (Zip Digity) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:38:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people still suck Message-ID: <2f1a98fe0903121338t450f3975rd5c4ccd409ad96ee@mail.gmail.com> The question here is not how or why someone is the way they are; it is easy to assume- that's one of the problems. Everything happens for a reason. And there is no reason not to treat people how you want to be treated. From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 12 10:03:48 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:03:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?Good_Boy!_The_World=92s_Ten_Smartest_?= =?windows-1252?q?Dogs?= Message-ID: <49B94074.4000900@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090312/84e1d957/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 10:09:57 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden--everyone welcome! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is just a reminder of an organizational meeting at my house, 1817 17th Avenue, Forest Grove, at 7 p.m. tonight. We will be assigning action committee positions and drafting a work plan to present to the city for the big garden plot they are offering us. Our next goal is to obtain liability coverage in time for the planting season. We are hoping to "piggyback" on some existing agency's insurance (paying our share of the premium, of course) until we can get our own coverage lined up. We have decided, since we may not be able to get all the plots rented this first year, that any unclaimed ground will be planted with potatoes and other storage crops for the Food Bank, in addition to the "Plant-A-Row" contributions by individuals. Hope to see you here! Walt From edavie at verizon.net Thu Mar 12 15:45:28 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:45:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Boy! The Worlds Ten Smartest Dogs References: <49B94074.4000900@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <3807B0CD13364DA88A22D039865781C6@EDavie> Used to have golden retrievers & German shepards. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Good Boy! The World?s Ten Smartest Dogs Here's a great article on several of the more intelligent breeds of dogs. bob "woof, woof" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22063/68520/print ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 12 20:55:44 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:55:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the beach. Some in the desert. Home or homeless, these areas have both. Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones who live the way different from the way you choose? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > > I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest > resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other > alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always > available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or intellectually > compromised. > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 21:31:17 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:31:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <665D7531-47C8-460F-A752-56929043857C@teleport.com> On the whole, I'd rather be in San Diego. On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Steven wrote: > Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the > beach. Some > in the desert. > Home or homeless, these areas have both. > Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones > who live > the way different from the way you choose? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >> >> I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest >> resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other >> alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always >> available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or intellectually >> compromised. >>> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 12 22:34:20 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:34:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: <665D7531-47C8-460F-A752-56929043857C@teleport.com> Message-ID: So you're saying that all of us are mentally disturbed because we don't live in San Diego? I might have to agree with you. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 9:31 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > > > On the whole, I'd rather be in San Diego. > > On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Steven wrote: > > > Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the > > beach. Some > > in the desert. > > Home or homeless, these areas have both. > > Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones > > who live > > the way different from the way you choose? > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > >> bounces at rdrop.com]On > >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz > >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM > >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > >> > >> I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest > >> resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other > >> alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always > >> available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or intellectually > >> compromised. > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 12 22:38:52 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:38:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, I mean if I had to be crazy and homeless, I'd prefer to be so in San Diego. The population is diverse and tolerant, and the climate generally mild. On Mar 12, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Steven wrote: > So you're saying that all of us are mentally disturbed because we > don't live > in San Diego? I might have to agree with you. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 9:31 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >> >> >> On the whole, I'd rather be in San Diego. >> >> On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Steven wrote: >> >>> Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the >>> beach. Some >>> in the desert. >>> Home or homeless, these areas have both. >>> Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones >>> who live >>> the way different from the way you choose? >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On >>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM >>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >>>> >>>> I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest >>>> resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other >>>> alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always >>>> available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or >>>> intellectually >>>> compromised. >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 13 00:53:33 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:53:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people still suck In-Reply-To: <2f1a98fe0903121338t450f3975rd5c4ccd409ad96ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f1a98fe0903121338t450f3975rd5c4ccd409ad96ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43D58282-83A0-4DAD-856E-A27A61568520@verizon.net> On Mar 12, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Zip Digity wrote: > The question here is not how or why someone is the way they are; it > is easy to assume- that's one of the problems. Everything happens > for a reason. > And there is no reason not to treat people how you want to be treated. Yes, "Do unto others as you would have them, do unto you" is the Golden rule. The Gold Rule, by contrast, is "Do unto others as you please, because those with the gold make the rules." A college professor offered the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them." It presupposes that people are different, and what I may enjoy may cause you grief. Before we can "do unto others", we will need to gain some understanding of how they want to be treated. Which is significantly more difficult than the Golden Rule. As we see people, we can and should see the similarities. We can also acknowledge that there are important differences, even when dealing with those in our community without a permanent address. Some are homeless, others displaced, a few may be fugitives, while others are wanderers. There may be violent felons, gypsies and religious missionaries in the mix. Our response may be to trust them all, to fear them all, or somewhere in the middle. And I expect that they carry a trust or distrust toward each of us based upon their prior experiences inside and outside of our community. If you have twenty of these humans in a group, you may have twenty different stories and twenty different situations asking for a response. It may be appropriate to give an apple or candy bar to someone. It may be appropriate to escort another out of town. We do hire and hopefully train people to assist us in separating the needy from the sinister. The professionals we hire are paid by our taxes. Do we want to assist the displaced and homeless? Do we want to incarcerate the thieves, predators and charlatans? Or do we want to turn our back on all of them? That is a large scale political question. I personally don't want thieves running loose in my neighborhood while I am away from home. I don't want predators targeting children of our community. I don't want charlatans preying on the resources of the poorly informed. And, I do want to make efforts to keep the displaced and homeless from choosing to become thieves or charlatans. If they are going to make good choices, than they need to have some options that they and we can agree are "good". It makes no sense to decry that someone made a "bad choice" unless we know that they had a good option available to them. We can choose to do this for religious reasons. Or we can do it for self preservation. From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Mar 13 07:18:48 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:18:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So the homeless are crazy because they don't live in better weather or in a diverse community? Or are you calling people in forest grove not intolerant? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:39 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > > > No, I mean if I had to be crazy and homeless, I'd prefer to be so in > San Diego. The population is diverse and tolerant, and the climate > generally mild. > > On Mar 12, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Steven wrote: > > > So you're saying that all of us are mentally disturbed because we > > don't live > > in San Diego? I might have to agree with you. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > >> bounces at rdrop.com]On > >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz > >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 9:31 PM > >> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > >> > >> > >> On the whole, I'd rather be in San Diego. > >> > >> On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Steven wrote: > >> > >>> Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the > >>> beach. Some > >>> in the desert. > >>> Home or homeless, these areas have both. > >>> Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones > >>> who live > >>> the way different from the way you choose? > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > >>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On > >>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz > >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM > >>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck > >>>> > >>>> I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest > >>>> resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other > >>>> alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always > >>>> available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or > >>>> intellectually > >>>> compromised. > >>>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 13 08:35:56 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:35:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people still suck In-Reply-To: <43D58282-83A0-4DAD-856E-A27A61568520@verizon.net> References: <2f1a98fe0903121338t450f3975rd5c4ccd409ad96ee@mail.gmail.com> <43D58282-83A0-4DAD-856E-A27A61568520@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9ED86CE6-FAA3-40F2-A2E0-92CF161DE482@teleport.com> Bravo, very thoughtful and cogently reasoned! On Mar 13, 2009, at 12:53 AM, jo.david wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Zip Digity wrote: > >> The question here is not how or why someone is the way they are; it >> is easy to assume- that's one of the problems. Everything happens >> for a reason. >> And there is no reason not to treat people how you want to be >> treated. > > Yes, "Do unto others as you would have them, do unto you" is the > Golden rule. > > The Gold Rule, by contrast, is "Do unto others as you please, because > those with the gold make the rules." > > A college professor offered the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they > would have you do unto them." > > It presupposes that people are different, and what I may enjoy may > cause you grief. Before we can "do unto others", we will need to > gain some understanding of how they want to be treated. Which is > significantly more difficult than the Golden Rule. > > As we see people, we can and should see the similarities. We can > also acknowledge that there are important differences, even when > dealing with those in our community without a permanent address. > Some are homeless, others displaced, a few may be fugitives, while > others are wanderers. There may be violent felons, gypsies and > religious missionaries in the mix. Our response may be to trust them > all, to fear them all, or somewhere in the middle. And I expect that > they carry a trust or distrust toward each of us based upon their > prior experiences inside and outside of our community. > > If you have twenty of these humans in a group, you may have twenty > different stories and twenty different situations asking for a > response. It may be appropriate to give an apple or candy bar to > someone. It may be appropriate to escort another out of town. We do > hire and hopefully train people to assist us in separating the needy > from the sinister. The professionals we hire are paid by our taxes. > > Do we want to assist the displaced and homeless? Do we want to > incarcerate the thieves, predators and charlatans? Or do we want to > turn our back on all of them? That is a large scale political > question. > > I personally don't want thieves running loose in my neighborhood > while I am away from home. I don't want predators targeting children > of our community. I don't want charlatans preying on the resources > of the poorly informed. > > And, I do want to make efforts to keep the displaced and homeless > from choosing to become thieves or charlatans. If they are going to > make good choices, than they need to have some options that they and > we can agree are "good". It makes no sense to decry that someone > made a "bad choice" unless we know that they had a good option > available to them. > > We can choose to do this for religious reasons. Or we can do it for > self preservation. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 13 09:47:33 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:47:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] mean people suck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16E4CC36-16C4-416A-8CE4-B0096B494209@teleport.com> All a matter of preference, i suppose... maybe the crazy people I meet in San Diego are crazy like a fox, or they just don't prefer shivering under a hedge up north during the winter. On Mar 13, 2009, at 7:18 AM, Steven wrote: > So the homeless are crazy because they don't live in better weather > or in a > diverse community? > Or are you calling people in forest grove not intolerant? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:39 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >> >> >> No, I mean if I had to be crazy and homeless, I'd prefer to be so in >> San Diego. The population is diverse and tolerant, and the climate >> generally mild. >> >> On Mar 12, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Steven wrote: >> >>> So you're saying that all of us are mentally disturbed because we >>> don't live >>> in San Diego? I might have to agree with you. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On >>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 9:31 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >>>> >>>> >>>> On the whole, I'd rather be in San Diego. >>>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Steven wrote: >>>> >>>>> Some people prefer living in Alaska. Some in Mexico. Some by the >>>>> beach. Some >>>>> in the desert. >>>>> Home or homeless, these areas have both. >>>>> Which of these people are mentally disturbed? Is it only the ones >>>>> who live >>>>> the way different from the way you choose? >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com]On >>>>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:42 PM >>>>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] mean people suck >>>>>> >>>>>> I refer to basic logic. If a person chooses the path of greatest >>>>>> resistance, inconvenience, pain, public disdain, etc. when other >>>>>> alternatives are available (admitted, they are not always >>>>>> available), then he is probably mentally disturbed, or >>>>>> intellectually >>>>>> compromised. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 13 16:03:02 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:03:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Real interesting reading . . . Message-ID: <49BAE626.20404@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090313/05ae7def/attachment.html From tosca at prodigy.net Tue Mar 17 14:04:25 2009 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie Combs) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 Message-ID: <379648.30257.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Barbara Greaves wrote: From: Barbara Greaves Subject: 545 To: "Combs, Bonnie" Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:32 PM 545 vs 300,000,000? (Republicans & Democrats Alike - No One Is Blameless) ?Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years. ?545 PEOPLE By Charlie Reese Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans?are against deficits,?WHY do we have deficits? Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes? You and I don't propose a federal budget.? The President does. You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does. You and I don't write the tax code,?Congress does. You and I don't set fiscal policy,?Congress does. You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does. One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme?Court justices?, 545 human beings out of the 300 million?are directly,?legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems?that plague this country. I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem?was created by the Congress.?? In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank. I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority.?? They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing.? I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the?lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes. Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that?what they did is not their fault.?? They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive?amount of gall.?? No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.?? The president can only propose a budget.?? He cannot force?the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.??? Who is the speaker of the?House??? Nancy?Pelosi.??She is the leader of the majority party.?? She and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to. It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility.?? I can't think of a single domestic?problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people.? When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. ? If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red . If the Army & Marines are in? IRAQ , it's because they want them?in IRAQ . If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way. There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they?hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power.?? Above all, do not let?them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them?from doing what they take an oath to do. ? Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. They, and they alone, have the power. They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses. ?Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees. ?We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess! ? ?Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper. ?What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you,?though you?have several choices: ?1.? You can send this to everyone in your address book and?hope "they" do something about it. ?2.??You can agree to "vote against" everyone that is currently?in office, knowing that the process will?take?several??years. ?3.??You can decide to "run for office" yourself and?agree to do the job properly. ?4.?Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing or re-elect the?current bunch. ? ? ____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Apply now for a credit loan with fast approval. From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 14:49:41 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 In-Reply-To: <379648.30257.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <379648.30257.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <196481.48884.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay . . .?let's say I?take Door #3 and run for office . . . Does my background, over 25 years in the engineering profession?with?roles where I managed others as well as?roles?where I was a Program Manager leading a team, does this background make anyone feel comfortable that I have?the skills to be a good representative in Congress to those who elected me? I have zero experience in politics.? Is this?an asset or liability? Today, I don't know the first thing about?our Congress' procedural?process.? Is this an asset or liability? I'm not registered in any political party.? Is this an asset or liability? Let's say I really did run for office . . . if?by some miracle I?actually *WOULD* win, I can almost guarantee I'd be viewed by my fellow Congress-people as the proverbial?floating feces in the punch bowl.??Would this be an asset or liability to the folks who?elected me to representative them? Charley Reese expresses frustration and outrage.? I?relate.? His options #1 & #4 are basically?'do nothing'.? His option #2 is tough because?unless?we?get a massive, one-time turnover,?we very well could end up with?the entranched masses brain-washing the?"new kids" and then we have essentially no change. In summary, it's option #3 that has the most potential.? But can it really happen?? Would we really all support it? ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Bonnie Combs To: grovenet Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:04:25 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Barbara Greaves wrote: From: Barbara Greaves Subject: 545 To: "Combs, Bonnie" Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:32 PM 545 vs 300,000,000? (Republicans & Democrats Alike - No One Is Blameless) ?Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years. ?545 PEOPLE By Charlie Reese Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans?are against deficits,?WHY do we have deficits? Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes? You and I don't propose a federal budget.? The President does. You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does. You and I don't write the tax code,?Congress does. You and I don't set fiscal policy,?Congress does. You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does. One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme?Court justices?, 545 human beings out of the 300 million?are directly,?legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems?that plague this country. I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem?was created by the Congress.?? In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank. I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority.?? They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing.? I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the?lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes. Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that?what they did is not their fault.?? They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive?amount of gall.?? No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.?? The president can only propose a budget.?? He cannot force?the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.??? Who is the speaker of the?House??? Nancy?Pelosi.??She is the leader of the majority party.?? She and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to. It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility.?? I can't think of a single domestic?problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people.? When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. ? If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red . If the Army & Marines are in? IRAQ , it's because they want them?in IRAQ . If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way. There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they?hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power.?? Above all, do not let?them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them?from doing what they take an oath to do. ? Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. They, and they alone, have the power. They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses. ?Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees. ?We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess! ? ?Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper. ?What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you,?though you?have several choices: ?1.? You can send this to everyone in your address book and?hope "they" do something about it. ?2.??You can agree to "vote against" everyone that is currently?in office, knowing that the process will?take?several??years. ?3.??You can decide to "run for office" yourself and?agree to do the job properly. ?4.?Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing or re-elect the?current bunch. ? ? ____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Apply now for a credit loan with fast approval. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 17 20:05:36 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:05:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 In-Reply-To: <196481.48884.qm@web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The other thought is, Could it be any worse? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Allen Warren > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:50 PM > To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 > > > Okay . . .?let's say I?take Door #3 and run for office . . . > > Does my background, over 25 years in the engineering profession?with?roles > where I managed others as well as?roles?where I was a Program Manager > leading a team, does this background make anyone feel comfortable that I > have?the skills to be a good representative in Congress to those > who elected > me? > > I have zero experience in politics.? Is this?an asset or liability? > > Today, I don't know the first thing about?our Congress' > procedural?process.? > Is this an asset or liability? > > I'm not registered in any political party.? Is this an asset or liability? > > Let's say I really did run for office . . . if?by some miracle I?actually > *WOULD* win, I can almost guarantee I'd be viewed by my fellow > Congress-people as the proverbial?floating feces in the punch bowl.??Would > this be an asset or liability to the folks who?elected me to > representative > them? > > Charley Reese expresses frustration and outrage.? I?relate.? His > options #1 > & #4 are basically?'do nothing'.? His option #2 is tough > because?unless?we?get a massive, one-time turnover,?we very well could end > up with?the entranched masses brain-washing the?"new kids" and > then we have > essentially no change. > > In summary, it's option #3 that has the most potential.? But can it really > happen?? Would we really all support it? > ? > Allen Warren > > > ________________________________ > From: Bonnie Combs > To: grovenet > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:04:25 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 > > > > --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Barbara Greaves wrote: > > From: Barbara Greaves > Subject: 545 > To: "Combs, Bonnie" > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 545 vs 300,000,000? (Republicans & Democrats Alike - No One Is Blameless) > > > > > > > ?Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years. > > > > > ?545 PEOPLE > By Charlie Reese > Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then > campaign against them. > Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans?are > against deficits,?WHY do we have deficits? > Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and > high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes? > > You and I don't propose a federal budget.? The President does. > You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on > appropriations. > The House of Representatives does. > You and I don't write the tax code,?Congress does. > You and I don't set fiscal policy,?Congress does. > You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does. > > One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine > Supreme?Court > justices?, 545 human beings out of the 300 million?are directly,?legally, > morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems? > that plague > this country. > > I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that > problem?was > created by the Congress.?? In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional > duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, > central bank. > > I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound > reason. They > have no legal authority.?? They have no ability to coerce a senator, a > congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing.? I > don't care if > they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the > power to accept or reject it. No matter what the?lobbyist promises, it is > the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes. > > Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that?what > they did is not their fault.?? They cooperate in this common con > regardless > of party. > What separates a politician from a normal human being is an > excessive?amount > of gall.?? No normal human being would have the gall of a > Speaker, who stood > up and criticized the President for creating deficits.?? The president can > only propose a budget.?? He cannot force?the Congress to accept it. > > The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole > responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating > and approving > appropriations and taxes.??? > Who is the speaker of the?House??? Nancy?Pelosi.??She is the leader of the > majority party.?? She and fellow House members, not the President, can > approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it > over his veto if they agree to. > > It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace > 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and > irresponsibility.?? I can't think of a single domestic?problem that is not > traceable directly to those 545 people.? When you fully grasp the plain > truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal > government, then it > must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. > ? > If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. > If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red . > If the Army & Marines are in? IRAQ , it's because they want them?in IRAQ . > If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan > not available to the people, it's because they want it that way. > > There are no insoluble government problems. > Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they?hire > and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they > can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to > regulate and from > whom they can take this power.?? Above all, do not let?them con > you into the > belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," > "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them?from doing what they take an > oath to do. > ? > Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. > They, and they alone, have the power. > They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people > who are their > bosses. > > ?Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees. > ?We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess! > ? > ?Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper. > ?What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to > you,?though you?have several choices: > > ?1.? You can send this to everyone in your address book and?hope "they" do > something about it. > ?2.??You can agree to "vote against" everyone that is currently?in office, > knowing that the process will?take?several??years. > ?3.??You can decide to "run for office" yourself and?agree to do the job > properly. > ?4.?Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing or re-elect the?current bunch. > ? > > ? > > ____________________________________________________________ > Need cash? Apply now for a credit loan with fast approval. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 20:44:47 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <631013.72872.qm@web35204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Depends who you ask.? :-) ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Steven To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:05:36 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 The other thought is, Could it be any worse? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Allen Warren > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:50 PM > To: Tosca at prodigy.net; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 > > > Okay . . .?let's say I?take Door #3 and run for office . . . > > Does my background, over 25 years in the engineering profession?with?roles > where I managed others as well as?roles?where I was a Program Manager > leading a team, does this background make anyone feel comfortable that I > have?the skills to be a good representative in Congress to those > who elected > me? > > I have zero experience in politics.? Is this?an asset or liability? > > Today, I don't know the first thing about?our Congress' > procedural?process.? > Is this an asset or liability? > > I'm not registered in any political party.? Is this an asset or liability? > > Let's say I really did run for office . . . if?by some miracle I?actually > *WOULD* win, I can almost guarantee I'd be viewed by my fellow > Congress-people as the proverbial?floating feces in the punch bowl.??Would > this be an asset or liability to the folks who?elected me to > representative > them? > > Charley Reese expresses frustration and outrage.? I?relate.? His > options #1 > & #4 are basically?'do nothing'.? His option #2 is tough > because?unless?we?get a massive, one-time turnover,?we very well could end > up with?the entranched masses brain-washing the?"new kids" and > then we have > essentially no change. > > In summary, it's option #3 that has the most potential.? But can it really > happen?? Would we really all support it? > ? > Allen Warren > From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 17 21:15:43 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:15:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: 545 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA65A5A-FEBA-4A0D-BD4A-EC126B3D39B0@verizon.net> On Mar 17, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Steven wrote: > The other thought is, Could it be any worse? Some years ago, the Oregon legislature fell under the "term limits" blanket, and a lot of long term incumbents were pushed out of office. The new faces came in with all of their ideals and new agenda, and there were few "old timers" who knew the ropes. The new faces turned to the only source of "tribal knowledge" that was available; the bureaucrats who ran the departments and the lobbyists. I don't believe that was the original intention of term limits, but it was an outcome. David From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Mar 19 19:25:54 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:25:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Save the Date: March 31 Message-ID: <1C39A1305E66454FB7A6E489AC6CE564@gerianehzkfhvy> ========================================== 2009 CENTENNIAL of the Forest Grove City Library SESQUICENTENNIAL of the State of Oregon ========================================== OREGON AT 150: THE ROLE OF ETHNIC COMMUNITIES ========================================== GREAT AMERICAN SPEECHES Series Event and Town Hall Discussion: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:00 PM at the Forest Grove Community Auditorium 1915 Main Street ========================================== Students from Forest Grove schools will be contributing to essay and artwork contests on the role of Oregon?s ethnic communities in the state?s past 150 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Citizens are invited to take part in a video project about family or community histories in Oregon! ========================================== On the Panel: Linda Tamura, Alfonso Lopez, Hannah Hurdle-Toomey, with moderator Jim Moore. ========================================== For more info about the video project or the event, call the Forest Grove City Library: 503 - 992 - 3247. ========================================== Geri From ALLNUTT at VERIZON.NET Fri Mar 20 09:40:38 2009 From: ALLNUTT at VERIZON.NET (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? Message-ID: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> Here is an interesting article for those who remember the story of the goat herder whose father in law turned him in for the $5K fee, thinking the US would quickly realize they just had a simple goat herder. But the family was disappointed when they kept him for several years trying to get the 'truth' out of him. Of course they were confused because they thought the US was a big smart country that could tell the difference between a goat herder and a terrorist, but they were wrong with folks like Cheney and Rumsfield in charge. Now we find ourselves in the situation where goat herders in Afghanistan know that Dick Cheney is a lying despot but not enough people in the US know it. With people finally feeling like they can come out and tell the truth (even though it is unfortunate they didn't have the balls to do so at the time) maybe we can return to the philosophies of Washington and the other founders who advocated treating prisoners humanely. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_guantanamo_wrongly_held Katie From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 14:02:58 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] art at a discount In-Reply-To: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> Message-ID: <909437.27204.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Had to send this out to help a struggling artist friend....pardon my ad Laurelwood Art Studio Clearance Sale! Open Studio March Saturdays, 1 - 5, or by appointment, anytime (503)985-7374 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurelwood Art Studio Clearance Sale! 50% off (or make an offer) on all framed works in studio, plus huge discounts on in stock custom framing materials for your art. Open Studio March Saturdays, 1 - 5, or by appointment, anytime 38910 SW Hartley Rd. In Laurelwood, Gaston area, Scenic Wine Country in Western Washington County Fine Art Sales and Custom Framing (503)985-7374, (503)317-5003 www.laurelwoodart.com, art at laurelwoodart.com From zipdigity at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:25:23 2009 From: zipdigity at gmail.com (Zip Digity) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:25:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] vernal equinox Message-ID: <2f1a98fe0903201525v7cf6733ud61d7336c0a96c71@mail.gmail.com> Today is the beginning of Spring!! Balancing eggs anyone? Planting herbs and gardens according to the phases of the moon? Might be myth; might be fun! From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 20 21:46:45 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:46:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden In-Reply-To: <49A5861E.5090307@jurislex.com> References: <49A5861E.5090307@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <78BDE7FF-5AD0-4174-9A7F-BA55BE0AE7CE@teleport.com> Hello, all: Deborah Delfs of WSC Insurance has given me a quote for liability insurance of $500 for the entire year-- a bit less expensive than anticipated, with the added benefit that we would not have to renew for six-month periods. This would cover both the Garden and the City for general liability. I'm still waiting for information on water usage for the past couple of years, which would give us a beginning figure for that expense, but at present I have enough to write out a plan to submit to the City. Mike Federman has dug out a couple of names in the BPA hierarchy who can hopefully give us some information on the scope of BPA's plans for the substation area: Janet Lonneker, magager of FG L&P, may be the appropriate person to contact these people. I still think it would be useful to continue our meetings, to keep us all up to speed on the project and solicit changes to the paperwork i will pass around on the mailing list. Since two people have said they can't do Fridays, i propose we try again for Thursday, March 26, at my place (1817 17th Avenue), 7 p.m. I've got a short item in to the News-Times with that date. Until then, keep digging, keep reporting, and hopefully we'll be able to press our case again at the next City Council meeting, which is on the 30th i believe. Regards, Walt Wentz From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 20 22:13:11 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:13:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? In-Reply-To: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> References: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> Message-ID: <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> New laws do not need to be invented. We do have a process for such conditions ( or at least the Constitution did ). Those wrongly held without bail could sue their captors and those in decision making authority over their captors for civil damages and mental anguish. The current US Administration should support those wrongly held in their court actions against Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Gonzales, et all. And then after a civil trial, we should allow for their extradition to Afghanistan to face criminal trial by a jury of "their peers" for charges of kidnap in the region/city where the kidnappings took place. David On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Here is an interesting article for those who remember the story of > the goat herder whose father in law turned him in for the $5K fee, > thinking the US would quickly realize they just had a simple goat > herder. But the family was disappointed when they kept him for > several years trying to get the 'truth' out of him. Of course they > were confused because they thought the US was a big smart country > that could tell the difference between a goat herder and a terrorist, > but they were wrong with folks like Cheney and Rumsfield in charge. > Now we find ourselves in the situation where goat herders in > Afghanistan know that Dick Cheney is a lying despot but not enough > people in the US know it. With people finally feeling like they can > come out and tell the truth (even though it is unfortunate they > didn't have the balls to do so at the time) maybe we can return to > the philosophies of Washington and the other founders who advocated > treating prisoners humanely. > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_guantanamo_wrongly_held > > > Katie > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 21 07:39:20 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 07:39:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? In-Reply-To: <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> References: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> Message-ID: Only one problem with that-- it might be hard to assemble a jury of "their peers" in Afghanistan, because their true peers are mostly vicious warlords and intolerant fanatics like Mulla Omar, who are in hiding and unlikely to comply with the ideals of human law in any case. Truly, brothers under the skin... On Mar 20, 2009, at 10:13 PM, jo.david wrote: > New laws do not need to be invented. > > We do have a process for such conditions ( or at least the > Constitution did ). Those wrongly held without bail could sue their > captors and those in decision making authority over their captors for > civil damages and mental anguish. The current US Administration > should support those wrongly held in their court actions against > Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Gonzales, et all. > > And then after a civil trial, we should allow for their extradition > to Afghanistan to face criminal trial by a jury of "their peers" for > charges of kidnap in the region/city where the kidnappings took place. > > David > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Here is an interesting article for those who remember the story of >> the goat herder whose father in law turned him in for the $5K fee, >> thinking the US would quickly realize they just had a simple goat >> herder. But the family was disappointed when they kept him for >> several years trying to get the 'truth' out of him. Of course they >> were confused because they thought the US was a big smart country >> that could tell the difference between a goat herder and a terrorist, >> but they were wrong with folks like Cheney and Rumsfield in charge. >> Now we find ourselves in the situation where goat herders in >> Afghanistan know that Dick Cheney is a lying despot but not enough >> people in the US know it. With people finally feeling like they can >> come out and tell the truth (even though it is unfortunate they >> didn't have the balls to do so at the time) maybe we can return to >> the philosophies of Washington and the other founders who advocated >> treating prisoners humanely. >> >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_guantanamo_wrongly_held >> >> >> Katie >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Sat Mar 21 08:35:01 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 08:35:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? In-Reply-To: References: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <425A9F66-70D9-4C55-9168-82ADD353183E@verizon.net> And who has money to sue? Especially the US government. Especially after you've been in captivity for years. --MK > > >> New laws do not need to be invented. >> >> We do have a process for such conditions ( or at least the >> Constitution did ). Those wrongly held without bail could sue their >> captors and those in decision making authority over their captors for >> civil damages and mental anguish. The current US Administration >> should support those wrongly held in their court actions against >> Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Gonzales, et all. >> >> And then after a civil trial, we should allow for their extradition >> to Afghanistan to face criminal trial by a jury of "their peers" for >> charges of kidnap in the region/city where the kidnappings took >> place. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: >> >>> Here is an interesting article for those who remember the story of >>> the goat herder whose father in law turned him in for the $5K fee, >>> thinking the US would quickly realize they just had a simple goat >>> herder. But the family was disappointed when they kept him for >>> several years trying to get the 'truth' out of him. Of course they >>> were confused because they thought the US was a big smart country >>> that could tell the difference between a goat herder and a >>> terrorist, >>> but they were wrong with folks like Cheney and Rumsfield in charge. >>> Now we find ourselves in the situation where goat herders in >>> Afghanistan know that Dick Cheney is a lying despot but not enough >>> people in the US know it. With people finally feeling like they can >>> come out and tell the truth (even though it is unfortunate they >>> didn't have the balls to do so at the time) maybe we can return to >>> the philosophies of Washington and the other founders who advocated >>> treating prisoners humanely. >>> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_guantanamo_wrongly_held >>> >>> >>> Katie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 21 18:46:08 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:46:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? In-Reply-To: <425A9F66-70D9-4C55-9168-82ADD353183E@verizon.net> References: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> <425A9F66-70D9-4C55-9168-82ADD353183E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1160DE52-6897-4728-93C9-C2A15F0A96C4@verizon.net> On Mar 21, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > And who has money to sue? Especially the US government. Especially > after you've been in captivity for years. --MK > >> >> >>> ... The current US Administration should support those wrongly >>> held in their court actions against Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, >>> Gonzales, et all. >>> ... >>> David e.g. support their suit financially. From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 21 18:52:48 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (jo.david) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:52:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the goat herder? In-Reply-To: References: <1A17F6DD-1AAB-4F89-94C5-BBBD6C6E207B@VERIZON.NET> <8259A263-E969-40F8-A523-FE9F96FABFE5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <927F3079-80B5-40E9-8F97-0B3494C4747C@verizon.net> On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Only one problem with that-- it might be hard to assemble a jury > of "their peers" in Afghanistan, because their true peers are > mostly vicious warlords and intolerant fanatics like Mulla Omar, > who are in hiding and unlikely to comply with the ideals of human > law in any case. > Truly, brothers under the skin... > On Mar 20, 2009, at 10:13 PM, jo.david wrote: > >> ... >> And then after a civil trial, we should allow for their >> extradition to Afghanistan to face criminal trial by a jury of >> "their peers" for charges of kidnap in the region/city where the >> kidnappings took place. >> >> David I would expect that a jury of tribal leaders would know how to apply the appropriate legal precedents to someone who kidnapped members of their community. Perhaps they would wind up serving as indentured servants to the wronged parties for a year or two. Let's see, a fifty or sixty innocent shepherds in the whole group, at two years service each ( against the five or six years lost) would be a life sentence in Afghanistan for each of them. Not bad, considering that for some time, kidnapping was a capital offense in this country. David From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 23 12:50:13 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:50:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Soon to be the fastest growing church in Oregon ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <49C7E7F5.7060202@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090323/45f72a7a/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Mar 23 14:21:29 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Soon to be the fastest growing church in Oregon ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <49C7E7F5.7060202@jurislex.com> References: <49C7E7F5.7060202@jurislex.com> Message-ID: I think I'll pass as the description says it tastes like all the jungle mixed with bile. Katie (a little camomile please) On Mar 23, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Ore. Church Can Brew Hallucinogenic Tea, Says Federal Judge > > The Associated Press > March 23, 2009 > > A federal judge says members of a Brazilian-based Christian church > in Ashland, Ore., can import, distribute and brew hallucinogenic tea. > > U.S. District Judge Owen Panner issued a permanent injunction > barring the government from prohibiting or penalizing the > sacramental use of "Daime tea." > > It is brewed from two Amazonian plants that contain the > hallucinogenic drug dimethyltriptamine, or DMT. The tea is also > known as ayahuasca tea. > > Panner's order, issued Thursday, said activities of The Church of > the Holy Light of the Queen, an Ashland-based branch of the Santo > Daime are legal. > > His order prohibits the federal government from interfering or > prosecuting church members who follow a list of regulations set out > in his order. > > Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu Mar 26 10:36:46 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Medieval Faire call for participation! In-Reply-To: <1C39A1305E66454FB7A6E489AC6CE564@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <58293.85424.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> McMenamins Grand Lodge Hosts 2009 Medieval Faire FAIRE IN THE GROVE Call for Participation Friday May 1: 3 pm to dusk Saturday May 2: 10 am to dusk Sunday May 3: 10 am to 3 pm Deadline for Vendor and Performer application, April 18 contact kofs5807 at pacificu.edu Website: www.FaireInTheGrove.com Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon?s Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fifth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups?including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too. ?The Medieval Faire has truly become a Forest Grove activity: an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city,? said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove. ?The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring.? At least 8,000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend. There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day?s closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin?s grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday May 1, 3 pm to dusk, Saturday May 2, 10 am to dusk, Sunday May 3, 10 am to 3 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase. See the website for all the details www.FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax: 503 352 3195 From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 29 09:09:14 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:09:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden Update In-Reply-To: References: <6E563686-CCBA-4F7F-8BD8-84A4116C101A@verizon.net> <49A0BC7E.30501@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <3132C4AA-3C7F-436A-A548-CB3044CB1180@teleport.com> Hello, all! Ellen Hastay and Holly Tsur are winding up the important task of writing a grant application to the city's Enhancement Fund. It will be submitted this week. Holly has requested and will apparently get a donation of six raised- bed garden boxes from NaturalYards Raised Beds, and is now seeking donations of garden soil to fill them. They will be placed near the entrance to the garden. This will allow elderly, disabled or wheelchair-bound gardeners to work with greater ease. Meanwhile, the season is advancing rapidly, and there is still a LOT to do. Our first and main concern is to obtain City approval to work on the garden site. Last week I completed and sent to the city a more detailed proposal and plans, which will hopefully give us some traction. The next City Council meeting is tomorrow, March 30, at 7 p.m. at the City Auditorium. Please turn out if you can to provide some support for our presentation, which will be a short, 3-minute "citizen input." Stephanie's "Backyard Poultry" initiative will be presented at this meeting, so many of you may also be interested in that. Once official permission to begin work is obtained from the city, we will have to go into high gear. The tasks will be about as follows: March 30- April 15: Alert Washington County Sheriff's Department to cultivate the main garden plots as soon as weather and resources permit. Contact Forest Grove Parks and Recreation Department for help in laying out and excavating post-holes for fence and trench for the water main. Obtain materials for rebuilding the water main, either by purchase or donation. Assemble and bury the water main. Split up retired power poles to make fence posts, install in holes and hang wire and fence webbing, ether purchased or donated. (All the above can be done by Shawn, myself, and any other help available) April 16 - May 1: Finalize liability insurance. (Walt) Create posters and handouts advertising the garden, have them printed. Ruralite Services Inc. will provide low-cost Xeroxing for the latter. (Walt) Print plot-rental applications, numbering them with plot numbers, and draw a schematic plot map to keep track of rentors. (Walt, anyone else?) Canvass the immediate neighborhood with garden leaflets, meanwhile attempting to recruit a local caretaker/watchman. (As many of us as possible) Begin renting plots, hopefully through city clerks. (city or us) Create signage for the garden. (Anyone artistic? Miracle Signs may donate some materials) Measure, locate and mark the individual plots with stakes and string. (Walt and anyone else available) Finalize porta-potty rental. (Walt) Assemble, install and fill donated raised beds. (Holly and anyone else available, some heavy shoveling required) Install drip irrigation, if available; otherwise, prepare for existing sprinkler irrigation. (Greg, Walt, anyone else) Collect and paint donated hand tools. (Walt, anyone else available) Install signage around garden. (Anyone available) Hold well-publicized grand opening. (Everyone!) To keep things moving as quickly as possible, we should continue our weekly progress meetings. The next one will be Thursday, April 2 at 7 p,m. at my place, 1817 17th Avenue. Of course,individual volunteers can get in contact with me at any time to carry through individual jobs. Let's get growing! Walt From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 11:29:13 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:29:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] MARCH 31 -- Tomorrow! Message-ID: ========================================== ~ 2009 ~ CENTENNIAL of the Forest Grove City Library SESQUICENTENNIAL of the State of Oregon ========================================== OREGON AT 150: THE ROLE OF ETHNIC COMMUNITIES ========================================== GREAT AMERICAN SPEECHES Series Event and Town Hall Discussion: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:00 PM at the Forest Grove Community Auditorium 1915 Main Street ========================================== Students from Forest Grove schools will be contributing to essay and artwork contests on the role of Oregon?s ethnic communities in the state?s past 150 years. ------------------------------------------------------ Citizens are invited to take part in a video project about family or community histories in Oregon! ========================================== On the Panel: Linda Tamura, Alfonso Lopez, and Hannah Hurdle-Toomey, with moderator Jim Moore. ========================================== For more info about the video project or the event, call the Forest Grove City Library: 503-992-3247. ========================================== Geri From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 18:26:36 2009 From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:26:36 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Hello Message-ID: I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our little coffee shop the other day. My name is Glenn and I own the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer. Anyway we have just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar. Right now we only have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open. We also hope it will be a vinue for the community. We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be able to gather. I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes was very good. We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local. It just makes good sense. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 18:45:36 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:45:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cool idea for the college croud. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Glenn Berkheimer > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:27 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] Hello > > > > I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our > little coffee shop the other day. My name is Glenn and I own the little > espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through > espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from > McDonalds and is a little trailer. Anyway we have just acquired the > rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make > it a Coffee Piano Bar. Right now we only have the drive through but we > are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open. We also hope it will > be a vinue for the community. We do not plan to serve any alcoholic > beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and > people of all ages to be able to gather. > I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes > was very good. We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when > local was better and I too try to only shop local. It just makes good > sense. > Glenn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 19:11:27 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:11:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hello References: Message-ID: <3C192E49590549618B8F1E4565E3AE7A@gerianehzkfhvy> Welcome, Glenn! I like the sound of a family coffee piano bar, and wish you very well! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Berkheimer" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:26 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Hello I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into our little coffee shop the other day. My name is Glenn and I own the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer. Anyway we have just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar. Right now we only have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar ready to open. We also hope it will be a vinue for the community. We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be able to gather. I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van Dykes was very good. We too see lots of local business lost to big Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local. It just makes good sense. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 31 22:01:25 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:01:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome. Good luck expanding your business in Forest Grove, we need all of the energy we can generate from home-grown businesses. David On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote: > > I was told about this group by one of my customers that came into > our little coffee shop the other day. My name is Glenn and I own > the little espresso coffee shop that has been Forest Grove's 1st > drive through espresso shop since 1993, the one that is on Pacific > just across from McDonalds and is a little trailer. Anyway we have > just acquired the rights to the old "Oasis Tavern" and are going to > expand into it to make it a Coffee Piano Bar. Right now we only > have the drive through but we are working hard to get the Piano Bar > ready to open. We also hope it will be a vinue for the community. > We do not plan to serve any alcoholic beverages so hopefully this > will become a place for all families and people of all ages to be > able to gather. > I hope to hear from other soon, and I thought the discussion on Van > Dykes was very good. We too see lots of local business lost to big > Corps when local was better and I too try to only shop local. It > just makes good sense. > Glenn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail? > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet