[Grovenet] mean people suck

[Jeff Howden]

> > For some, perhaps.  Many are there by choice because in
> > their mind it frees them from the constraints of society. 
> > All the free handouts from those that mean well just
> > make that sort of avoidance doable rather than dubious.
> 
> Um... I find that just a little unlikely. Who would choose
> to live in wretched poverty, discomfort, insecurity and
> public disdain? [...]

Simply being unable to imagine it yourself does not, in fact, make it in any
way unlikely.  It only makes it unlikely for you.

> [...] Only those too mentally disturbed to conform to the
> constraints of society, or those who are there through no
> choice of their own. [...]

It doesn't require any clinical amount of mental disturbance to be unhappy
with the constraints of society.  Add to that the desire to "be your own
man/woman" and a dash of "not much to lose" (ie, not much in the way of
family) and you have a wonderful recipe for a career homeless.

> Vietnam vets who lived in the woods might have been patriots
> or even heroes, but that didn't mean they could hold down a
> job or keep their inner demons under control. With the
> winding down of the Iraq war, I think we shall see more
> veterans shunted outside the constraints of society. 
> "Support our troops" should be more than a cheerleader's
> slogan.

I wasn't, in any way, talking about war veterans.  However, that, in and of
itself, isn't sufficient excuse.  There are plenty that succeed despite a
harrowing battle with depression, panic/anxiety issues, and other
mental/emotional dysfunction.  The difference is they *want* to get past
that and are willing to give it their 100%.

> True-- within the limits of his own abilities and situation.
> If he is mentally disturbed, does that mean we can cut him
> off from treatment because he has no money? [...]

Can?  Yes.  Should? Maybe not.  However, I don't want my tax dollars paying
for his treatment and having my children's education, my community's
policing, and other vital public dollar funded services being impacted for
this individuals mental health care.

> [...] If (through peer pressure or stupid teen bravado), he
> has become addicted, shall we toss him out with the garbage?

Shall?  No.  Want to, maybe?  Sure.  No program in the world can save him
from himself if he doesn't want to be saved.  Trying *anything* before he's
reached bottom and become willing to give up the addiction and move on is a
waste of time and money.  Without consequences, he will have learned nothing
and will relapse again and again and again.

If, however, he chooses to continue using drugs, then he needs to face
whatever consequences come his way by that loss of health, loss of
family/friends, loss of property, incarceration, homelessness, being hungry,
etc. ... whatever it takes to get him to the point of deciding enough is
enough.  We do him no favors by short-circuiting that process.  A safety net
makes using easy.

> If, through no fault of his own, a family man's lifelong
> vocation has been "outsourced" to East Rattbaggistan, shall
> we sneeringly tell him to "get a job" where there are no
> jobs?

Certainly not.  It's fairly clear from my original response that this was
*not* the sort of individual I was referring to.  However, what I *do* think
is that if this family man chooses to sit for months and months collecting
unemployment and isn't bothering to get back out there to look for another
job (even one that doesn't pay anywhere near what he was earning before)
then he's doing himself and his family no service.  Mourn the loss of the
job, shrug it off, polish the resume, and get back out there.  Even in an
economic climate like this there *are* jobs if you just stick to it and
aren't too picky. 

> In short, are adult humans "disposable," while "pre-born" 
> humans are not?

I haven't voiced my opinions on abortion and am unsure why that subject has
been brought in to this debate.

> As this current recession continues, i think we shall see
> more and more people-- even educated, mentally healthy and
> conscientious people-- in desperate straits.

I agree.  I only hope that the programs that are designed to help *these*
sorts aren't being chewed through and used up by individuals who either are
in that aspect of the system willingly, in the system because of mental
illness or addiction, or otherwise abusing the system and thereby making it
just that much harder for those that really do need the help and the ones
for whom the help would be truly temporary.