From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri May 1 10:05:41 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Medieval Faire starts today! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <804360.4989.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Faire in the Grove - 2009 Medieval Faire - FREE! For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. McMenamins Grand Lodge Hosts 2009 Medieval Faire Friday May 1: 3:00 to dusk Saturday May 2: 10:00 am to dusk Sunday May 3: 10:00 am to 3:00 pm www.FaireInTheGrove.com (FOREST GROVE, OR) Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon's Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fourth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. Set for the first weekend of May, McMenamins Grand Lodge is sponsoring an exciting outdoor event designed for the entire community and people of all ages. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups all day long, including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too. "The Medieval Faire has truly become a Forest Grove activity: an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city," said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove. "The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring." At least 8000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items from food to weapons to books. All booths will be staffed by people costumed to appear as though they are part of the middle ages. Vendors will include chair massages, jewelry, hand-made medieval items, handcrafted leather journals, herbs and baked goods, candles, soap, fantasy collectibles, crowns, magic wands and swords. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend. There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day's closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin's grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday May 1, 3:00 to dusk, Saturday May 2, 10:00 am to dusk, Sunday May 3, 10:00 am to 3:00 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase. See the website for all the details www.FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 1 18:01:08 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:01:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back Message-ID: <15901-49FBA964-2514@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> From jo.david at verizon.net Fri May 1 21:15:14 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 21:15:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <15901-49FBA964-2514@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15901-49FBA964-2514@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <48773F3D-9BD1-4428-B098-CC858760A558@verizon.net> How are you doing? David On May 1, 2009, at 6:01 PM, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 1 21:48:08 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 21:48:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Fri, 01 May 2009 21:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: <29410-49FBD088-5765@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> David... I'm doing asawell as can be expected from being between the rock the the hard tree! -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm back Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 21:15:14 -0700 Size: 4019 Url: /pipermail/attachments/20090501/b82fd8ce/attachment.mht From theresacus at yahoo.com Sat May 2 04:45:05 2009 From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 04:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 Message-ID: <510003.19812.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone done any research as to what the best teaching methods are for children of Autism and ADD?? I have friends, with children, who have been tagged with those labels.?They are both off the scale as far as intelligence too.?That in itself does not make?it any easier.??One mom ended up quiting her?job, to home school her son and he is now?studying to become a dentist.? The other battled the schools and her son is in Alaska fishing.?Both are doing well for themselves and?the families seem to be happy. ? ? I am not sure that with the labeling that the child actually gets a better education.? The parents too are questioning whether, that was the best thing to do but at the time it all seemed to be guided or driven,?by the school.? Unless the school is able to truly teach these kids using different methods then it seems pointless to me, to put both parents and students through the testing.? ? I have to mention that my younger sister, who has now been diagnosed with dyslexia. My mom?saw her falling behind in school and spent countless hours teaching her to read.? Later, a tutor that my parents hired.? (She is 46 years old and at that time there was no additional help in the schools.)??My sister?went on to a community college, in electronics.? She struggled but was determined in chasing her dream.? Now she is?pushing polygons around as a?mask designer, at Intel and doing very well for herself.? ? My mom then became a reading tutor at the grade school, as a volunteer.? Some students simply needed a stronger foundation in reading and others had some severe family issues, that were distracting them from learning.? The one thing that she did see is that the individual attention helped with not just their reading but their self esteem and behavior as well.? She couldn't?imagine putting any child through 13 years, of failure.? The one thing that she used to say to me as my sons were growing up.? "A child who can not find possitive attention will find negative attention.? No attention is the worst kind of lonliness."? ? In defense of the teachers, the class sizes in Forest Grove are huge. My youngest son, a senior, at the high school?dropped two classes this year because there were not enough seats to accommodate the class size. One was an AP class too.? It is next to impossible to give the attention that is necessary to just one or two in a class of?twenty-five or thirty.? I do know that some of the students have a special person that shadows the students, who tend to be disruptive.? Maybe it would be better to have those people actually giving individual education, rather than having them in a classroom as a child's behavioral monitor, all day.??I personally feel that those dollars could be better spent on educating because the socializing will come with the students?success.? ? Theresa Carter ? ? From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat May 2 06:18:47 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 06:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back References: <15901-49FBA964-2514@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Hope all is well up on the mountain? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" To: Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 6:01 PM Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Sat May 2 07:29:00 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 07:29:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: "Geri" 's message of Sat, 2 May 2009 06:18:47 -0700 Message-ID: <15896-49FC58AC-6375@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Gei says "I hope all is well up on the mountain!" Yep .... it is ...just cold and wet ... almost 1/4 of rain since yesterday. ~alan~ sure glad I've good drainage! ~ Hoss From edavie at verizon.net Sat May 2 09:43:11 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 09:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back References: <15901-49FBA964-2514@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Good for you Alan! .49" rain last night. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 6:01 PM Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Sat May 2 11:19:10 2009 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:19:10 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 Message-ID: There has been much research on the subject of treatment by various groups. Searching the Internet will reveal many techniques. Personally, I believe you have to try different methods and find what works for your child as each child is different. You may want to look into food/diet changes. There are foods that can make the high function Autism child become more emotional/reactive/hyper. Some of the foods have been found to give a kind of 'high' and the child will frequently have these very same food items on the limited list of foods they are willing to eat. One in particular is gluten, found in most wheat products - try minimizing the intake - purchase gluten free or gluten low content products. Milk products and red 40 are often cited as a catalyst to exciting them. As far as my son being disruptive, it was mostly because he was quite outspoken. Meaning he would speak (loudly - no volume control of his voice) without waiting to be called on. Because he was bright, he frequently would not give the teacher a chance to call on someone to respond - he would just blurt the answer out to the chagrin of the teacher. He would have emotional breakdowns when the routine changed from what he expected to happen. This could be anything from what he was told that was to happen next and the teacher decides to do something different or a subtle change from the day to day routine. He was very strict about rules and what people were expected to do (exception sample: waiting to respond until called on.) In his early years at school, he would not leave it to the teacher to 'correct' the 'misbehaving' student and would attempt to stop the child (his idea was to prevent the other student from getting in trouble) but would result in him getting in trouble. Being very literal in what he was told, he would often misinterpret what he was told or taught which would lead to all sorts of various issues. A teacher could make a remark about something in jest but he would not take it as a joke and would learn or understand the statement in its literal interpretation. [To get a good idea of my son's character, read about the characteristics of the Aspergers (AS) child. He has been referred to being a classic AS.] His current school system, put him in AP classes but he has been pulled from some of the AP classes because he never learned to study in the early grades; a result if his not being properly challenged academically while we were in FG. Another area of difficulty for him is dealing with art work (including tactical touch of things) or being told he has to write it out vs being able to type it. Tactical touch can bring on issues with writing with pencils, using crayons, etc. He still complains that he can 'feel' the lead coming off the pencil as he writes. We have found by trying different brand pencils and paper, we could find a combination that he was not as sensitive to. Given the above descriptions, you can imagine the types of things that were put in his IEP. But to get the teachers to abide by the IEP or use redirection techniques was a huge problem in FG. His current teachers are much better about following through with the IEP directions. Thus, the amount of time we have to spend at the school resolving issues has been significantly reduced and he has fewer meltdowns. James In a message dated 5/2/2009 7:45:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, theresacus at yahoo.com writes: Has anyone done any research as to what the best teaching methods are for children of Autism and ADD? I have friends, with children, who have been tagged with those labels. They are both off the scale as far as intelligence too. That in itself does not make it any easier. One mom ended up quiting her job, to home school her son and he is now studying to become a dentist. The other battled the schools and her son is in Alaska fishing. Both are doing well for themselves and the families seem to be happy. I am not sure that with the labeling that the child actually gets a better education. The parents too are questioning whether, that was the best thing to do but at the time it all seemed to be guided or driven, by the school. Unless the school is able to truly teach these kids using different methods then it seems pointless to me, to put both parents and students through the testing. I have to mention that my younger sister, who has now been diagnosed with dyslexia. My mom saw her falling behind in school and spent countless hours teaching her to read. Later, a tutor that my parents hired. (She is 46 years old and at that time there was no additional help in the schools.) My sister went on to a community college, in electronics. She struggled but was determined in chasing her dream. Now she is pushing polygons around as a mask designer, at Intel and doing very well for herself. My mom then became a reading tutor at the grade school, as a volunteer. Some students simply needed a stronger foundation in reading and others had some severe family issues, that were distracting them from learning. The one thing that she did see is that the individual attention helped with not just their reading but their self esteem and behavior as well. She couldn't imagine putting any child through 13 years, of failure. The one thing that she used to say to me as my sons were growing up. "A child who can not find possitive attention will find negative attention. No attention is the worst kind of lonliness." In defense of the teachers, the class sizes in Forest Grove are huge. My youngest son, a senior, at the high school dropped two classes this year because there were not enough seats to accommodate the class size. One was an AP class too. It is next to impossible to give the attention that is necessary to just one or two in a class of twenty-five or thirty. I do know that some of the students have a special person that shadows the students, who tend to be disruptive. Maybe it would be better to have those people actually giving individual education, rather than having them in a classroom as a child's behavioral monitor, all day. I personally feel that those dollars could be better spent on educating because the socializing will come with the students success. Theresa Carter _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet **************Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web. Try the new Email Toolbar now! (http://toolbar.aol.com/mail/download.html?ncid=txtlnkusdown00000027) From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sat May 2 12:26:38 2009 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <510003.19812.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <510003.19812.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <801161.38055.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I think you're right about the need for individual attention. When my son was four years old, I taught him to read. I could see early on from his pre-school experiences that he would have trouble in school. I believed that if he had a leg up on other kids with respect to reading, that might help to compensate for some of his other difficulties. So, I found Bob Books. I cannot say enough for this amazing systematic system for reading that was developed by a kindergarten teacher at Catlin Gabel School in Portland. I have seen no better system for teaching kids to read. There are three boxes of twelve books and each box contains a graduated group of books that becomes increasingly more challenging as you move forward. In the first box of books, each book teaches three or four new letter sounds and each book builds on the previous ones. By they time you make your way through the first box of books, the child has learned the sounds of all 26 letters of the alphabet except for the letter Q. The second and third boxes of books move on to consonate blends and vowel combinations. The last book in the third box contains a fairly complicated fairy tale. By the time the kid reads that final book, they're ready to pick up easy readers at the libary and run with them. The books contain all these funny stick figure illustrations that were drawn by the author's husband. And unlike the Dick and Jane books, Bob Books are often very funny and interesting. My son loved to play the game Connect Four. It's a very fast game that involves connecting discs together in groups of four--either vertically, horizontally, or diagonally--before your opponent does. Like tic-tac-toe, it doesn't take long for one person to win. So, to keep my son motivated toward getting through the Bob Books, I used to tell him, "Let's play Connect Four. If you win, we keep playing the game. If I win, we read another five pages of this Bob Book". He got so good at Connect Four that I could hardly beat him by the time we got through all 36 Bob Books. I can't say enough about how effective and systematic Bob Books can be in teaching kids how to read. And, they contain instructions inside that are easy for parents and teachers to follow. Honestly, I cannot figure out why Bob Books are not used more by school districts to help kids learn to read. They work for anyone--particularly kids who are struggling. I even have a friend who tutors adults from Samalia in learning English and she uses Bob Books in teaching them how to read. Holly ________________________________ From: Theresa Carter To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2009 4:45:05 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 Has anyone done any research as to what the best teaching methods are for children of Autism and ADD? I have friends, with children, who have been tagged with those labels. They are both off the scale as far as intelligence too. That in itself does not make it any easier. One mom ended up quiting her job, to home school her son and he is now studying to become a dentist. The other battled the schools and her son is in Alaska fishing. Both are doing well for themselves and the families seem to be happy. I am not sure that with the labeling that the child actually gets a better education. The parents too are questioning whether, that was the best thing to do but at the time it all seemed to be guided or driven, by the school. Unless the school is able to truly teach these kids using different methods then it seems pointless to me, to put both parents and students through the testing. I have to mention that my younger sister, who has now been diagnosed with dyslexia. My mom saw her falling behind in school and spent countless hours teaching her to read. Later, a tutor that my parents hired. (She is 46 years old and at that time there was no additional help in the schools.) My sister went on to a community college, in electronics. She struggled but was determined in chasing her dream. Now she is pushing polygons around as a mask designer, at Intel and doing very well for herself. My mom then became a reading tutor at the grade school, as a volunteer. Some students simply needed a stronger foundation in reading and others had some severe family issues, that were distracting them from learning. The one thing that she did see is that the individual attention helped with not just their reading but their self esteem and behavior as well. She couldn't imagine putting any child through 13 years, of failure. The one thing that she used to say to me as my sons were growing up. "A child who can not find possitive attention will find negative attention. No attention is the worst kind of lonliness." In defense of the teachers, the class sizes in Forest Grove are huge. My youngest son, a senior, at the high school dropped two classes this year because there were not enough seats to accommodate the class size. One was an AP class too. It is next to impossible to give the attention that is necessary to just one or two in a class of twenty-five or thirty. I do know that some of the students have a special person that shadows the students, who tend to be disruptive. Maybe it would be better to have those people actually giving individual education, rather than having them in a classroom as a child's behavioral monitor, all day. I personally feel that those dollars could be better spent on educating because the socializing will come with the students success. Theresa Carter _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Sat May 2 17:27:45 2009 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 20:27:45 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 Message-ID: We also played "Connect Four." But I believe he had more fun with playing "store." To teach math and more reading skills, I would have him bring me various toys, then I would give him some play money and let him buy the toys from me. I played the store game with him when he was ages 2 and 3. By the time he was 4 he was into playing monopoly. He would play the full version of the game; counting the money, giving change, etc. I believe most people overlook or are unwilling to take the time to teach their child to read at the early ages. I was teaching my son the alphabet when he was a baby. Since I did not know nursery rhymes, etc. I would do the alphabet and phonic sounds for hours to entertain him. He started to walk at 7 months, and by the time he was a year old he would toddle into a restaurant with us, point at, and read the various signs (the simple ones like "Please Wait to be Seated.") People would always be amazed and not believing what they saw and heard would ask, "Did he just read that? " Teach the kid young - they can learn! He was about 15 months when he went through the classic autism symptom of, regressed actions and loss of speech. I went into a intensive mode of working with him on things I knew he knew; counting, colors, alphabet, and reading! It took about 4 or 5 months to get him back into talking and reading, and he was even better at it than before! During the time when all he would do was was grunt "uh", he was still learning. I had utilized various books, TV shows, video tapes, and computer programs. In each method used, I was there with him expounding on what was being taught and encouraging him to interact with me and what he was seeing. Yes, I spent many many hours interacting with him with many types of teaching aides. At some point, I started a game of reading the simple books with him. I would read a word then he would read the next word. If he did not know how to sound out the word I would help him work through sounding it out. As he got better, I switched from each of us reading every other word to each reading every other sentence, then paragraphs/pages. After about a year of that, I switched to him reading to me with me just assisting if he did not know a word. I would insist that he ask if he did not know what a word meant as he could sound out words that he did not understand. After he was diagnosed, we started to include many social stories in the book lineup. this resulted with him expecting people to react the way they should per the books, his literalness was being exposed. Teach your kid to read early but also take it in stride when the school personnel does not believe you when you tell them he/she knows how to read. We were always told, "Oh, he can read by rote memory." They would then come pack to tell us a few weeks later that he can read! Each teacher would whisper in my ear, "Did you know he can read. I mean, he really knows how to read!" I have always wondered why each of the teachers would whisper it to me as though it was supposed to be some huge secret. I had three different teachers (Pre, K, and 1st) react the same way with almost the exact same words. Be sure to request that they give the child a reading comprehension evaluation early on! I did not know that they had such a thing and it took them till the 2nd grade to think to bring up the idea of evaluating his reading comprehension. My son should have been tested in Kindergarten! Oh, but they were more concerned about his 'autism' and could have cared less about what he actually learned educationally! Even after they gave him the reading evaluation, they never gave him anything challenging his level of knowledge. Excuse me, the areas of challenge they did give him were in areas that were directly in conflict with his condition to the point of causing him distress. It was always back to their attempt to take a square kid and try to mold/pound him into their round hole instead of addressing his educational needs and methods of learning that he could relate to. James In a message dated 5/2/2009 3:27:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I think you're right about the need for individual attention. When my son was four years old, I taught him to read. I could see early on from his pre-school experiences that he would have trouble in school. I believed that if he had a leg up on other kids with respect to reading, that might help to compensate for some of his other difficulties. So, I found Bob Books. I cannot say enough for this amazing systematic system for reading that was developed by a kindergarten teacher at Catlin Gabel School in Portland. I have seen no better system for teaching kids to read. There are three boxes of twelve books and each box contains a graduated group of books that becomes increasingly more challenging as you move forward. In the first box of books, each book teaches three or four new letter sounds and each book builds on the previous ones. By they time you make your way through the first box of books, the child has learned the sounds of all 26 letters of the alphabet except for the letter Q. The second and third boxes of books move on to consonate blends and vowel combinations. The last book in the third box contains a fairly complicated fairy tale. By the time the kid reads that final book, they're ready to pick up easy readers at the libary and run with them. The books contain all these funny stick figure illustrations that were drawn by the author's husband. And unlike the Dick and Jane books, Bob Books are often very funny and interesting. My son loved to play the game Connect Four. It's a very fast game that involves connecting discs together in groups of four--either vertically, horizontally, or diagonally--before your opponent does. Like tic-tac-toe, it doesn't take long for one person to win. So, to keep my son motivated toward getting through the Bob Books, I used to tell him, "Let's play Connect Four. If you win, we keep playing the game. If I win, we read another five pages of this Bob Book". He got so good at Connect Four that I could hardly beat him by the time we got through all 36 Bob Books. I can't say enough about how effective and systematic Bob Books can be in teaching kids how to read. And, they contain instructions inside that are easy for parents and teachers to follow. Honestly, I cannot figure out why Bob Books are not used more by school districts to help kids learn to read. They work for anyone--particularly kids who are struggling. I even have a friend who tutors adults from Samalia in learning English and she uses Bob Books in teaching them how to read. Holly ________________________________ From: Theresa Carter To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2009 4:45:05 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1 Has anyone done any research as to what the best teaching methods are for children of Autism and ADD? I have friends, with children, who have been tagged with those labels. They are both off the scale as far as intelligence too. That in itself does not make it any easier. One mom ended up quiting her job, to home school her son and he is now studying to become a dentist. The other battled the schools and her son is in Alaska fishing. Both are doing well for themselves and the families seem to be happy. I am not sure that with the labeling that the child actually gets a better education. The parents too are questioning whether, that was the best thing to do but at the time it all seemed to be guided or driven, by the school. Unless the school is able to truly teach these kids using different methods then it seems pointless to me, to put both parents and students through the testing. I have to mention that my younger sister, who has now been diagnosed with dyslexia. My mom saw her falling behind in school and spent countless hours teaching her to read. Later, a tutor that my parents hired. (She is 46 years old and at that time there was no additional help in the schools.) My sister went on to a community college, in electronics. She struggled but was determined in chasing her dream. Now she is pushing polygons around as a mask designer, at Intel and doing very well for herself. My mom then became a reading tutor at the grade school, as a volunteer. Some students simply needed a stronger foundation in reading and others had some severe family issues, that were distracting them from learning. The one thing that she did see is that the individual attention helped with not just their reading but their self esteem and behavior as well. She couldn't imagine putting any child through 13 years, of failure. The one thing that she used to say to me as my sons were growing up. "A child who can not find possitive attention will find negative attention. No attention is the worst kind of lonliness." In defense of the teachers, the class sizes in Forest Grove are huge. My youngest son, a senior, at the high school dropped two classes this year because there were not enough seats to accommodate the class size. One was an AP class too. It is next to impossible to give the attention that is necessary to just one or two in a class of twenty-five or thirty. I do know that some of the students have a special person that shadows the students, who tend to be disruptive. Maybe it would be better to have those people actually giving individual education, rather than having them in a classroom as a child's behavioral monitor, all day. I personally feel that those dollars could be better spent on educating because the socializing will come with the students success. Theresa Carter _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet **************Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web. Try the new Email Toolbar now! ( http://toolbar.aol.com/mail/download.html?ncid=txtlnkusdown00000027) From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Sat May 2 17:49:09 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:49:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu hits western Washington County Message-ID: <002101c9cb88$f822a2a0$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Guess it was just a matter of time http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Sat May 2 19:54:03 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:54:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sat, 02 May 2009 09:43:11 -0700 Message-ID: <15898-49FD074B-5699@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Ed.... 1 1/4 inches since midnight April 30 till 7.30 pm May 2nd..... have not got exact total of rain for this season this far. From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Sun May 3 16:14:41 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:14:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools In-Reply-To: <801161.38055.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <510003.19812.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <801161.38055.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c9cc44$f0983880$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun May 3 16:17:51 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:17:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools References: <510003.19812.qm@web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com><801161.38055.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <002101c9cc44$f0983880$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <77CE4487BF554224A66E99DB47FF6050@gerianehzkfhvy> Thanks for the update, John. Have a few neighbors I can pass this along to ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools > Hey Grovenetters > > The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their > website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. > > http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From gritton.family at comcast.net Sun May 3 19:43:58 2009 From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:43:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools In-Reply-To: <002101c9cc44$f0983880$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <1934038334.1488971241405038705.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> So, any news on when the District will hold Kindergarten Round-Up since it's scheduled for Tuesday at all of the elementary schools, or if they'll still have it then? The website doesn't mention it, nor is it easy to figure out whom to contact at the office to find out. I will probably call tomorrow morning, but it would still be nice to know sooner rather than later. Cindy Gritton ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 4:14:41 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 4 08:37:00 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 08:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden ready! Message-ID: <55368FDB-6A2A-4C25-BCEE-D678D1FAA12B@teleport.com> Hello, all! The Forest Grove Community Garden got a real workout this weekend, despite the weather. Practically all the wood chips were moved onto the paths, and the plots were all measured and staked. I'm going down to finish numbering the stakes this morning. Nothing major left to do except to finish the front fence and the gates. Meanwhile, we should canvass the neighborhood. I'm also going to print up another batch of bilingual handouts this morning, and we should get to it as soon as practicable this week, I assume in the evenings. When and how is up to your convenience. The ground is too wet to garden right now, but anyone wanting a plot or plots, please get your applications in! There are only 144 public plots in the garden, maybe 20-25 of those are already claimed, and once the sun comes out there is going to be a rush for the rest. Download applications at the Web site, www.fggardens .org Canvassing: We still need to canvass and advertise. I am making up more bilingual handouts and posters, plus applications for those who can't download them from the Website. Our big garden sign should be ready today or tomorrow. It'll be a really impressive thing. Greg Shipp has donated a flat of his hand-raised, organic cherry tomato seedlings. they are sitting on the picnic table at the site. First come, first served! Adelante Mujedres has donated a bag of Finnish "Ladyfinger" seed potatoes. Likewise, first come, first served! Volunteers, hope to see you all on Thursday evening, 7 p.m., 1817 17th Avenue! Thanks, Walt From theresacus at yahoo.com Mon May 4 12:58:38 2009 From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 Message-ID: <516258.25520.qm@web34504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good Morning All...? We just got back from the doctors because Keith is ill.? He DOES NOT have swine flu but we did get the critical pieces to look for.? High fever and green or yellowish change in mucous.? Along with the common chest tightness, coughing, headaches, weakness?and throwing up.? The doctors are inundated with concerns such as ours but I still think it is best to go make sure.? ? My bigger concern is that you go to the doctors and they do not issolate you from other patients.? One cough and you could be exposed to the swine flu, while your immunity is already down.? ? Theresa Carter --- On Mon, 5/4/09, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 12:00 PM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Swine flu closes schools (John Schrag) ???2. Re: Swine flu closes schools (Geri) ???3. Re: Swine flu closes schools (gritton.family at comcast.net) ???4. Community Garden ready! (Walt Wentz) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:14:41 -0700 From: "John Schrag" Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <002101c9cc44$f0983880$9702a8c0 at pmg.pamplincom.com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii" Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:17:51 -0700 From: "Geri" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <77CE4487BF554224A66E99DB47FF6050 at gerianehzkfhvy> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the update, John.? Have a few neighbors I can pass this along to ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools > Hey Grovenetters > > The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their > website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. > > http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:43:58 +0000 (UTC) From: gritton.family at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? <1934038334.1488971241405038705.JavaMail.root at sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So, any news on when the District will hold Kindergarten Round-Up since it's scheduled for Tuesday at all of the elementary schools, or if they'll still have it then? The website doesn't mention it, nor is it easy to figure out whom to contact at the office to find out. I will probably call tomorrow morning, but it would still be nice to know sooner rather than later. Cindy Gritton ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 4:14:41 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 08:37:00 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden ready! To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <55368FDB-6A2A-4C25-BCEE-D678D1FAA12B at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello, all! The Forest Grove Community Garden got a real workout this weekend,? despite the weather. Practically all the wood chips were moved onto? the paths, and the plots were all measured and staked. I'm going down? to finish numbering the stakes this morning. Nothing major left to do? except to finish the front fence and the gates. Meanwhile, we should canvass the neighborhood. I'm also going to? print up another batch of bilingual handouts this morning, and we? should get to it as soon as practicable this week, I assume in the? evenings. When and how is up to your convenience. The ground is too wet to garden right now, but anyone wanting a plot? or plots, please get your applications in!? There are only 144 public? plots in the garden, maybe 20-25 of those are already claimed, and? once the sun comes out there is going to be a rush for the rest.? Download applications at the Web site, www.fggardens .org Canvassing: We still need to canvass and advertise. I am making up? more bilingual handouts and posters, plus applications for those who? can't download them from the Website. Our big garden sign should be ready today or tomorrow. It'll be a? really impressive thing. Greg Shipp has donated a flat of his hand-raised, organic cherry? tomato seedlings. they are sitting on the picnic table at the site.? First come, first served! Adelante Mujedres has donated a bag of? Finnish "Ladyfinger" seed potatoes. Likewise, first come, first served! Volunteers, hope to see you all on Thursday evening, 7 p.m., 1817? 17th Avenue! Thanks, Walt ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 *************************************** From theresacus at yahoo.com Mon May 4 12:58:33 2009 From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 Message-ID: <802757.22363.qm@web34503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good Morning All...? We just got back from the doctors because Keith is ill.? He DOES NOT have swine flu but we did get the critical pieces to look for.? High fever and green or yellowish change in mucous.? Along with the common chest tightness, coughing, headaches, weakness?and throwing up.? The doctors are inundated with concerns such as ours but I still think it is best to go make sure.? ? My bigger concern is that you go to the doctors and they do not issolate you from other patients.? One cough and you could be exposed to the swine flu, while your immunity is already down.? ? Theresa Carter --- On Mon, 5/4/09, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 12:00 PM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Swine flu closes schools (John Schrag) ???2. Re: Swine flu closes schools (Geri) ???3. Re: Swine flu closes schools (gritton.family at comcast.net) ???4. Community Garden ready! (Walt Wentz) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:14:41 -0700 From: "John Schrag" Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <002101c9cc44$f0983880$9702a8c0 at pmg.pamplincom.com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii" Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:17:51 -0700 From: "Geri" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <77CE4487BF554224A66E99DB47FF6050 at gerianehzkfhvy> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the update, John.? Have a few neighbors I can pass this along to ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools > Hey Grovenetters > > The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their > website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. > > http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:43:58 +0000 (UTC) From: gritton.family at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? <1934038334.1488971241405038705.JavaMail.root at sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So, any news on when the District will hold Kindergarten Round-Up since it's scheduled for Tuesday at all of the elementary schools, or if they'll still have it then? The website doesn't mention it, nor is it easy to figure out whom to contact at the office to find out. I will probably call tomorrow morning, but it would still be nice to know sooner rather than later. Cindy Gritton ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schrag" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 4:14:41 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Grovenet] Swine flu closes schools Hey Grovenetters The district is trying to get the word out. They should have info on their website soon. In the meantime, can you pass the word. http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124130856692107900 John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 08:37:00 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: [Grovenet] Community Garden ready! To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <55368FDB-6A2A-4C25-BCEE-D678D1FAA12B at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello, all! The Forest Grove Community Garden got a real workout this weekend,? despite the weather. Practically all the wood chips were moved onto? the paths, and the plots were all measured and staked. I'm going down? to finish numbering the stakes this morning. Nothing major left to do? except to finish the front fence and the gates. Meanwhile, we should canvass the neighborhood. I'm also going to? print up another batch of bilingual handouts this morning, and we? should get to it as soon as practicable this week, I assume in the? evenings. When and how is up to your convenience. The ground is too wet to garden right now, but anyone wanting a plot? or plots, please get your applications in!? There are only 144 public? plots in the garden, maybe 20-25 of those are already claimed, and? once the sun comes out there is going to be a rush for the rest.? Download applications at the Web site, www.fggardens .org Canvassing: We still need to canvass and advertise. I am making up? more bilingual handouts and posters, plus applications for those who? can't download them from the Website. Our big garden sign should be ready today or tomorrow. It'll be a? really impressive thing. Greg Shipp has donated a flat of his hand-raised, organic cherry? tomato seedlings. they are sitting on the picnic table at the site.? First come, first served! Adelante Mujedres has donated a bag of? Finnish "Ladyfinger" seed potatoes. Likewise, first come, first served! Volunteers, hope to see you all on Thursday evening, 7 p.m., 1817? 17th Avenue! Thanks, Walt ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 54, Issue 4 *************************************** From isis23ra at yahoo.com Mon May 4 15:06:22 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] FG Library program Tues 5/5, 7 PM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <144297.74547.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, Friends of the FG Library present a cultural program tomorrow, Tuesday, 5/5/09, 7 PM! The topic is: "Somehow We'll Survive: Life in Japan During WWII. Local author George Sideline will speak about his experience of living in Japan during WWII. Copies of his book will be available for purchase. The program is free and is in the Rogers Room at the west end of the library. thanks Alana From rab at jurislex.com Tue May 5 10:20:23 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 10:20:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Critically important new information on CPR . . . . Message-ID: <4A007557.3040807@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090505/74d549d3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: minithologo_white.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3282 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090505/74d549d3/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: quote_end.gif Type: image/gif Size: 337 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090505/74d549d3/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090505/74d549d3/attachment.jpe From AumaMarie at aol.com Tue May 5 11:11:13 2009 From: AumaMarie at aol.com (AumaMarie at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:11:13 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Mexico Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/2009 9:59:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimsueadams at mac.com writes: FYI... If you are saying what I think you are saying?? we have only 1 person in this entire state of Sonora that has the swine flu??. that is what I heard on the new this morning coming from Hermosillo. So we need to broadcast this news?..with a great deal of effort ??from all that live here?. as I do ?.. so that all Americans can hear that we are just fine here in Penasco?? . and we are not all sick and we are doing very, very well. **************Remember Mom this Mother's Day! Find a florist near you now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000006) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Suzanne Adams Subject: Mexico Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 09:58:14 -0700 Size: 4907 Url: /pipermail/attachments/20090505/ca3c3317/attachment.mht From phoenixacm at aol.com Tue May 5 14:38:06 2009 From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 17:38:06 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Critically important new information on CPR . . . . In-Reply-To: <4A007557.3040807@jurislex.com> References: <4A007557.3040807@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8CB9BE0E93A0AE2-7F8-9A4@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Very interesting, Bob. Thanks! Jane B-P Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 10:20 am Subject: [Grovenet] Critically important new information on CPR . . . . Just in case one of you are around me if and when I have another heart attack!! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++ Protocol stressing uninterrupted compressions can improve survival after out-of-hospital cardiac-arrest May 4, 2009 | Marlene Busko Kansas City, MO - Survival among adults with bystander-witnessed, out-of-hospital cardiac arrest with an initial rhythm of ventricular fibrillation (VF) improved from 22% to 44% following changes to a resuscitation protocol, a new study reports [1]. The historical protocol followed AHA 2000 guidelines, while the revised protocol modified this and advocated CPR before defibrillation, increased chest compressions, and decreased emphasis on ventilations and intubation in order to promote cardiac perfusion, lead author Dr Alex G Garza (Georgetown University School of Medicine, Washington, DC) told heartwire. "The study adds to the body of science demonstrating that chest compressions—and limiting interruptions to chest compressions?are one of the most important interventions that can be provided for out-of-hospital cardiac arrest," he said. The results speak for themselves, he added, noting that they found "dramatic" improvements in the percentages of patients who survived until hospital discharge and who had good neurological outcomes. "For too long we have taught the 'ABC's' [airway, breathing, circulation] when in fact it should probably be 'CBA,' meaning 'focus on circulation (compressions) first,'?" said Garza. The retrospective cohort study, which compared cardiac-arrest survival in Kansas City three years before and one year after a modified resuscitation protocol was implemented, is published online May 4, 2009 in Circulation. Low survival rates For too long we have taught the ABCs [airway, breathing, circulation] when in fact it should probably be 'CBA,' meaning 'focus on circulation (compressions) first.' Despite multiple research efforts and a push to increase the availability of defibrillators, survival rates after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest remain low in the US, the researchers write. In 2005, in an effort to improve resuscitation outcomes, the Kansas City, MO emergency medical system revised their protocol to reflect what happens in the three-phase, time-dependent model for cardiac arrest. In this model, the "electrical phase" occurs from 0 to five minutes after the cardiac arrest, and this is when defibrillation is the optimal therapy, the researchers write. At five to 10 minutes after a cardiac arrest, in the "circul ation phase," an optimal chest-compression strategy is needed to improve coronary perfusion pressure, to set up a successful defibrillation. Optimal treatment for the third phase, the "metabolic phase," which begins 10 minutes after cardiac arrest, is less clear. In places such as casinos and airports, swift defibrillation upon cardiac arrest has "unquestionably" improved survival, the group writes. Unfortunately, in most other scenarios, when emergency medical personnel arrive, cardiac-arrest patients are typically in the circulatory phase rather than the electrical phase, they add. In the current study, emergency medical service providers were trained in the new resuscitation protocol, which mandated that rescue workers perform at least three rounds of 200 chest compressions before attempting intubation, maintain a 50:2 ratio of compression to ventilation, restrict aggressive ventilation, and minimize pauses for ventilation. The researchers compared patients who had an out-of hospital cardiac arrest during January 1, 2003 to March 31, 2006 (historical cohort) vs April 1, 2006 to March 31, 2007 (revised-protocol cohort). Overall survival increased from 7.5% to 13.9%. In the subset of patients most likely to survive—those with cardiac arrest that was witnessed by bystanders and who had an initial shockable rhythm of VF: Return of spontaneous circulation improved from 37.8% (54 of 143 patients) to 59.6% (34 of 57 patients). Survival until hospital d ischarge improved from 22.4% (32 of 143 patients) to 43.9% (25 of 57 patients). Of the 25 survivors, 88% had a good neurological outcome when discharged from the hospital. "I think that emergency medical services should look at their data to see whether they actually routinely arrive at a cardiac arrest during the first five minutes (the 'electrical phase'), and if not, it would be a good practice to perform CPR before defibrillation," said Garza. Recent evidence suggests that aggressive ventilation and intubation are detrimental for establishing good coronary perfusion pressure, he added. "The jury is still out on the optimal number of compressions. However, our data and that of others suggest that more is probably better." Third study to support new strategy Emergency medical services should .?.?.?see whether they actually routinely arrive at a cardiac arrest during the first five minutes. If not, it would be a good practice to perform CPR before defibrillation. When asked by heartwire to comment on the study, Dr Gordon A Ewy (University of Arizona, Tucson) said: "This is the third study that essentially shows that our new form of CPR for primary cardiac arrest, which we call cardiocerebral resuscitation [as opposed to cardiopulmonary resuscitation], significantly improves survival." This study confirms what he and colleagues observed in Arizona and what Dr Michael J Kellum (Mercy Health System, Janesvill e, WI) and colleagues in Wisconsin reported, after emergency personnel modified their AHA-guideline-based cardiac-arrest resuscitation protocols to incorporate a newer approach [2]. "The less often chest compressions are interrupted during resuscitation, the better the survival," said Ewy. "During cardiac arrest, your hands are their heart, and every time you stop compressions for anything, vital forward blood flow stops." For many years, Ewy has advocated the merits of continuous chest compression without assisted breathing. It is hoped that studies such as the one by Garza and colleagues will lead to more appropriate guidelines, he said. Sources Garza AG, Gratton MS, Salomone JA, et al. Improved patient survival using a modified resuscitation protocol for out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. Circulation 2009; DOI: 10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.108.815621. Available at: http://circ.ahajournals.org. Kellum MJ, Kennedy KW, Ewy GA. Cardiocerebral resuscitation improves survival of patients with out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. Am J Med 2006; 119:335-340. Related links GASP! Agonal breathing common, predicts survival after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest [Arrhythmia/EP > Arrhythmia/EP; Nov 26, 2008] CPR by paramedics for cardiac arrest: First focus is to restore pulse in the field [Clinical cardiology > Clinical cardiology; Nov 04, 2008] AHA promotes chest-compression-only bystander-initiated CP R [Acute Coronary Syndromes > Acute coronary syndromes; Mar 31, 2008] Streamlined "CPR" by EMS can improve survival in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest [Acute Coronary Syndromes > Acute coronary syndromes; Mar 12, 2008] Copyright ®1999-2009 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved. Privacy policy info at theheart.org ------------------------------------------------------___________________ ____________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 6 10:45:45 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 10:45:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jupiter Jack, The Official Site, As Seen On TV Message-ID: <18270-4A01CCC9-6812@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Try this new Cell Phone addition... I have one, and boy-O-boy does it work real well. They are on back order, however, I sent for one about two weeks ago. ~Alan~ -------------- next part -------------- http://www.buyjupiterjack.com/ From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 6 11:45:38 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 11:45:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jupiter Jack, The Official Site, As Seen On TV References: <18270-4A01CCC9-6812@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <53AE6C52B359404B9F408B79EA49DADB@EDavie> Will it also tell you how much rain you have? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss To: GroveNet at rdrop.com Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Jupiter Jack, The Official Site, As Seen On TV Try this new Cell Phone addition... I have one, and boy-O-boy does it work real well. They are on back order, however, I sent for one about two weeks ago. ~Alan~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.buyjupiterjack.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 6 12:21:53 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:21:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jupiter Jack, The Official Site, As Seen On TV In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Wed, 06 May 2009 11:45:38 -0700 Message-ID: <18269-4A01E351-8064@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> ED asked.....Will it also tell you how much rain you have? Gee ... Ed .... Do not know... I guess you will have to buy one to find out! -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ed Davie" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jupiter Jack, The Official Site, As Seen On TV Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 11:45:38 -0700 Size: 4955 Url: /pipermail/attachments/20090506/9276a58e/attachment.mht From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Fri May 8 12:44:53 2009 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] upcoming SOLV event Sat the 16th Message-ID: <822905.17787.qm@web35603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you in advance for your time. SOLV Carpenter Creek/Plumlee/Stringtown Saturday, May 16??? 9-1 Coordinator: Dean Jares ?????????Contact Email: deanoy2k at yahoo.com????? Contact Phone Number: 503-481-4380 http://www.solv.org/programs/forms/form_VolRegistration.asp?EventID=15856&EventDt=5/16/2009&eventName=Carpenter%20Creek%20Loop Project Activities: Clean trash and garbage along creek edge and road side around road loop.? We hope to have post event food - maybe hotdogs, and drinks, still in the planning process. Any tools purchased will be donated to the Forest Grove Community School after the event. Safety Issues: , Steep Slopes, Water Body on Site, Poison Oak, Uneven or Slippery Ground. Recommended Minimum Age: 8 Volunteers To Bring: Bucket, Pitchfork, Rake, Shovel, Hand Pruner, Wheelbarrow, Litter Grabber, Loppers, Wire Cutters, Work Boots, Own Water, Gloves, Sturdy Shoes Wear heavy gloves, long sleeves and long pants around blackberry plants. Meeting Location: PARKING WILL BE ALONG CARPENTER CREEK RD AS WELL AS IN PARKING AREA FOR A LOCAL NURSERY 150 FT IN FROM INTERSECTION OF CARPENTER CREEK AND STRINGTOWN RD Plan for the weather with layers of clothing, sunscreen, rain gear, etc. Work with a partner and watch out for each other's safety. Watch out for other volunteers' safety, especially when working close together. Pace yourself, don't overexert. Take breaks, rest, don't work continually. Drink water, eat a snack. Follow common sense practices when lifting heavy items: use your knees, not your back. Fill collection bags only 2/3 full, especially when handling heavy items. Watch for poison oak, poison ivy, Giant Hogweed, or other plants to which you may be allergic. Leave the site if hazardous conditions, such as disturbed bee hives exist, especially if you have an allergy or are otherwise susceptible to the conditions. Use sunscreen and mosquito repellant when outdoors Wear a safety vest. Stay off the roadway. Stop often to orient yourself and make sure you're not wandering close to traffic. When working on steep slopes or banks Make sure your footing is stable. When encountering hazardous items: Don't touch, Mark the item and contact the Event Coordinator Identify each item before you touch it.? If you are uncertain about an item, leave it alone. Do not touch medical waste or hazardous materials, including syringe needles, bandages and condoms.? Don't touch containers with unidentified liquid or material in them. Don't touch propane gas tanks.? They may be used to manufacture illegal drugs and can explode. In case an accident occurs??? Know where the first aid kit is. Know where the nearest medical facility is located. Know where the nearest phone is.? If it's a cell phone, make sure you have a dial tone.? Dial 9-1-1 if emergency medical care is required, know your location. From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 13 07:50:54 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net) Date: 13 May 2009 07:50:54 Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from alan Message-ID: <200905131451.n4DEp7rs066786@www175.123greetings.com> Hi, You have been just sent an electronic greeting card at Nicegreetings.com - The free site for online greeting cards! (http://www.nicegreetings.com) To view your card, choose from any of the following options which works best for you. -------- Method 1 -------- Just click on the following Internet address (if that doesn't work for you, copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) http://cards.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/cards/showcard.pl?cardnum=ZRD80513075054864&log=beinlove -------- Method 2 -------- Copy & paste your card number in the view card box at http://www.nicegreetings.com Your card number is ZRD80513075054864 (For your convenience, the greeting card will be available for the next 30 days) Webmaster, http://www.nicegreetings.com From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 07:54:13 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from alan References: <200905131451.n4DEp7rs066786@www175.123greetings.com> Message-ID: <9420EBEAF1BC48B997497F4218BC349D@gerianehzkfhvy> Alan, thank you very much for your kind wishes to moms ... I always tell anyone who apologizes for a belated greeting: Thank you, you just made it last longer! : ) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 7:50 AM Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from alan > Hi, > > You have been just sent an electronic greeting card at Nicegreetings.com - The free site for online greeting cards! (http://www.nicegreetings.com) > > > > > To view your card, choose from any of the following options > which works best for you. > > -------- > Method 1 > -------- > > Just click on the following Internet address (if that doesn't work for > you, copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) > > http://cards.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/cards/showcard.pl?cardnum=ZRD80513075054864&log=beinlove > > -------- > Method 2 > -------- > > Copy & paste your card number in the view card box at > http://www.nicegreetings.com > > Your card number is > ZRD80513075054864 > > (For your convenience, the greeting card will be available for the next > 30 days) > > Webmaster, > http://www.nicegreetings.com > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 13 09:20:57 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:20:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! Message-ID: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/177fb146/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_left_170x33.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1837 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090513/177fb146/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090513/177fb146/attachment.jpe From tosca at prodigy.net Wed May 13 09:40:20 2009 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie Combs) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! In-Reply-To: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <216235.10735.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Bob Browning wrote: From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! To: "Grovenet" Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 9:20 AM I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 13 09:54:19 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Message-ID: <4A0AFB3B.3010206@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/c3daa57e/attachment.html From camorgan at stanfordalumni.org Wed May 13 10:31:35 2009 From: camorgan at stanfordalumni.org (Carol Morgan) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:31:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! Message-ID: <205NemREj1746S04.1242235895@cmsweb04.cms.usa.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/f3fe6e55/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 13 10:42:57 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:42:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <205NemREj1746S04.1242235895@cmsweb04.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: I'll let you know. I currently have FiOS! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Tosca at prodigy.net ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! I would love it if it were all buried like cable. Phone lines are ugly. ------ Original Message ------ Received: 09:40 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: Bonnie Combs To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Bob Browning wrote: From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! To: "Grovenet" Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 9:20 AM I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 11:00:37 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:00:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <4A0AFB3B.3010206@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Nicely written by Brown ... I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not church! Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. The politically-religious should butt out of this one. My 2-cents. ; ) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed outcome!! bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Adventures in Math & Marriage or, Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage by Barrett Brown Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King in November of 2006: "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get married." If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs will be higher than it is ten years later." Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the Evidence. According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this relationship so wrong in the first place? The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do with the institution's decline than with any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as well. Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. From: eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Wed May 13 11:38:39 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Farmer's Market and FG Library Booksale today! Message-ID: <991929.68093.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The Friends of the Forest Grove Library Used Book Sale is happening TODAY and all week during the usual library hours. (until 8 PM this evening, until 5 PM Thurs and Fri and Saturday (5/16) until 3 PM. (Volunteer to help with clean up and get a FREE bag o books. After you've bought your used books TODAY head on over to: The Farmer's Market which opens today at 4 PM - closes at 8 PM. It is on Main Street and offers today: ? A Treasure Hunt ? Bag give away- ?Greening the Market? ? Make & Take-make a seed-starting pot and take it home Thanks for your support! Alana From stevedj at teleport.com Wed May 13 11:38:58 2009 From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:38:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <4A0AFB3B.3010206@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <534A993C4EB4495FB5B5D5E884F6F8B5@Maincomputer> > The politically-religious should butt out of this one. Geri, Pun intended? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Nicely written by Brown ... > > I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves > fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy > either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are > allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will > say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing > the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or > recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not > church! > > Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do > they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. > However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your > church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. > > The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > My 2-cents. ; ) > Geri > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda > by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed > outcome!! > > bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Adventures in Math & Marriage or, > > Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage > > by Barrett Brown > > Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of > heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural > conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James > Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King > in November of 2006: > > "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage > [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get > married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, > it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get > married." > > If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, > and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. > Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. > > First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our > variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to > include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate > among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to > include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual > marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson > Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater > than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil > unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs > will be higher than it is ten years later." > > Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the > Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet > the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, > Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King > interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as > fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. > These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have > famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be > obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal > op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor > of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York > investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled > Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the > Evidence. > > According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions > in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by > 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the > heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed > suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had > increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. > During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in > Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may > probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this > relationship so wrong in the first place? > > The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley > Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back > in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating > that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed > that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and > divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing > that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered > that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and > Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few > places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions > anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he > couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up > in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do > with the institution's decline than w > ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is > driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these > "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages > simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from > the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, > as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute > "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's > position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are > younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as > well. > > Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. > "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers > looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of > married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without > first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a > much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married > couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people > pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is > at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage > Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage > poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. > Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of > wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have > unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of > second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage > is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry > after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course > of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions > continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. > > Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting > married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do > with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen > to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have > risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But > the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in > many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By > the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus > even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature > baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing > some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached > anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting > that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. > > By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly > Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, > that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the > push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more > disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of > course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that > by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly > Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. > > Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think > it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, > as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have > a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United > States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't > convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these > couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper > baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become > of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude > that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math > and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. > > From: > > eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society > Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 > View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 11:41:14 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:41:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <4A0AFB3B.3010206@jurislex.com> <534A993C4EB4495FB5B5D5E884F6F8B5@Maincomputer> Message-ID: <8F8DC9969E174F4F9818EBC3999244AA@gerianehzkfhvy> Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said it! No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > Geri, > > Pun intended? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not >> church! >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) >> Geri >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Grovenet >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed >> outcome!! >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage >> >> by Barrett Brown >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King >> in November of 2006: >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get >> married." >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs >> will be higher than it is ten years later." >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the >> Evidence. >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this >> relationship so wrong in the first place? >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do >> with the institution's decline than w >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as >> well. >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. >> >> From: >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From camorgan at stanfordalumni.org Wed May 13 11:45:53 2009 From: camorgan at stanfordalumni.org (Carol Morgan) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:45:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Message-ID: <330NemsS26884S11.1242240353@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/2f651e75/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 12:07:50 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:07:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <330NemsS26884S11.1242240353@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <8EC4854F2507464AA2F5FAA620EC769D@gerianehzkfhvy> Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple women, what's the difference? ------ Original Message ------ Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said it! No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > Geri, > > Pun intended? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not >> church! >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) >> Geri >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Grovenet >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed >> outcome!! >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage >> >> by Barrett Brown >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King >> in November of 2006: >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get >> married." >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs >> will be higher than it is ten years later." >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the >> Evidence. >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this >> relationship so wrong in the first place? >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do >> with the institution's decline than w >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as >> well. >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. >> >> From: >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From camorgan at stanfordalumni.org Wed May 13 12:13:40 2009 From: camorgan at stanfordalumni.org (Carol Morgan) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Message-ID: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/a59b5ff5/attachment.html From jim at benchmarkinspections.com Wed May 13 12:28:05 2009 From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:28:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell> I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. What a condescending attitude. - Jim Katen _____ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Carol Morgan Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize offspring. If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony with, it could be anything. ------ Original Message ------ Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple women, what's the difference? ------ Original Message ------ Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said it! No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > Geri, > > Pun intended? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not >> church! >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) >> Geri >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Grovenet >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed >> outcome!! >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage >> >> by Barrett Brown >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King >> in November of 2006: >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get >> married." >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs >> will be higher than it is ten years later." >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the >> Evidence. >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this >> relationship so wrong in the first place? >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do >> with the institution's decline than w >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as >> well. >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. >> >> From: >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _____ From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 12:50:51 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:50:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <750EC6EA1FF14DD3BF8E7CE145630A0C@gerianehzkfhvy> See, Carol, this is why Religion & Politics should never marry! What you said below, that may be your personal religious view on the whole thing, and I don't wish to argue religious views with you. As I said in the first place, I was talking about *civil rights.* You and your church and/or religion would not have to be involved. I would think the separation of church and state would make you feel protected. After all, it is not the law that a marriage must take place in a church or in the name of any religion, yet all religious people have the wonderful right to marry in their church if they choose! Those who don't so choose may be married in a civil ceremony (without bothering any church who wouldn't have them), which is still just as legal. Here is another example where SOME churches disagree with law: the death penalty. Some churches think a government should not have the right to kill someone, yet it is legal in some states ... See? Separation of church and state. Also, in my first response to Bob, I was saying there is a difference between homosexuality and pedophilia and polygamy, meaning that it does not make sense to cry "no same-gender marriages because they'll lead to pedophilia or polygamy." That's a strawman response. If two consenting, adult women or men wish to legally be bound together in a loving marriage, it has *nothing* to do with the strawman. Now, if someone *honestly* doesn't see a difference ... I have no wish to explain any further except to suggest they look in a good dictionary. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize offspring. If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony with, it could be anything. ------ Original Message ------ Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple women, what's the difference? ------ Original Message ------ Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said it! No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > Geri, > > Pun intended? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals are >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone will >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. Allowing >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not >> church! >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and your >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) >> Geri >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Grovenet >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their agenda >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed >> outcome!! >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage >> >> by Barrett Brown >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry King >> in November of 2006: >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't get >> married." >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already be. >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The Dobson >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for civil >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this occurs >> will be higher than it is ten years later." >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, the >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that meet >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry King >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" as >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and Z. >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also be >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver professor >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the >> Evidence. >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil unions >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased by >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden followed >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this >> relationship so wrong in the first place? >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly Stanley >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings back >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics indicating >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers showing >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz countered >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil unions >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back up >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to do >> with the institution's decline than w >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old these >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials from >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage rate, >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only constitute >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are as >> well. >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool of >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of married >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married people >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States is >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that percentage >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the course >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before getting >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to do >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you happen >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was in >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. By >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and thus >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as premature >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be reached >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and hinting >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. Sure, >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but the >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways more >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue that >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the Weekly >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I think >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get married, >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to have >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of these >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the proper >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will become >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. >> >> From: >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 13 13:12:05 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:12:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Wed, 13 May 2009 10:42:57 -0700 Message-ID: <10740-4A0B2995-1021@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mr Ed says ...I'll let you know. I currently have FiOS! Ed ..... Now you know why an OleHoss uses webtv... no fuss or muss, and webtv can do anything your computers do. bye the bye Mr Ed ... as of May first, and this morning my rain gauge says 4.10 inches of rain, and it's raining as I'm e-mailing this ..... Now if it would only warm up so my roses will start to bloom, for I've a lot of rose buds on all my roses. ~alan~ From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 13 13:22:11 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:22:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <10740-4A0B2995-1021@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5483A5CCC6F647DDB5EBE5F420B2189D@EdsPortable> Not quite, Alan. You can't download files at 15 MBytes/sec. You can't upload files at 2 MBytes/sec. I'm not home at present so can't read the rain gauge. I had over 3.5" before I left Friday. Ed > Mr Ed says ...I'll let you know. I currently have FiOS! Ed > ..... > Now you know why an OleHoss uses webtv... no fuss or muss, and webtv can > do anything your computers do. > > From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 13 13:24:57 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:24:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: "Geri" 's message of Wed, 13 May 2009 12:50:51 -0700 Message-ID: <10743-4A0B2C99-577@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Geri says ...See, Carol, this is why Religion & Politics should never marry! Of course this just my 3? worth ... This is one of the things I learned in The Police Academy 40 plus years ago..... (Don't talk Politics or Religion, it is the fastest way lose a lot of friends, and to make one heck of a lot of enemies.) Now you all know why I try and keep out of these kinds of conversations, live up on a mountain, and still single! Besides this OleDog is to old to learn anything new besides to beg and whine! ~alan~ From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 13 13:31:36 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:31:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Wed, 13 May 2009 13:22:11 -0700 Message-ID: <10743-4A0B2E28-581@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ed. Maybe webtv is not as fast as your computers. However, webtv can download, and upload files, and store them as well. And by you not being at home, I guess your at you get away place.... ~alan~ From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 13 13:33:21 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:33:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <10743-4A0B2E28-581@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <2E56C4D7030F44A2B0E17713351DD25A@EdsPortable> Yeah, we're at the coast, in the rain. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > Ed. > Maybe webtv is not as fast as your computers. However, webtv can > download, and upload files, and store them as well. And by you not > being at home, I guess your at you get away place.... > > ~alan~ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 13:50:54 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <10743-4A0B2E28-581@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <2E56C4D7030F44A2B0E17713351DD25A@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <28930C72BE1545588D2EE0F16793CF0F@gerianehzkfhvy> Rain or no rain, Ed, I'm jealous! ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > Yeah, we're at the coast, in the rain. > Ed > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > > >> Ed. >> Maybe webtv is not as fast as your computers. However, webtv can >> download, and upload files, and store them as well. And by you not >> being at home, I guess your at you get away place.... >> >> ~alan~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 13:53:52 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! In-Reply-To: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> References: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Being somewhat familiar with?fiber-optic service (FIOS) vs. cable modem vs.?digital subscriber line (DSL), I'm going to wait awhile?before I switch?from Clear service to FIOS in the home.? Why?? Thought you'd never ask.? :-) Fiber optic?is the future.? No doubt about it.??I can easily foresee?in my lifetime (I hit 50 this year!) where fiber optic? transmission will exceed plain old copper wire transmission.? There are multiple reasons on the advantage of transmitting via fiber vs. copper: bandwidth, distance (copper requires frequent refreshing of the signal), lower maintenance costs, and the biggest one: SPEED.? With fiber, you're transmitting light pulses vs. electrical impulses over copper, and we're talking gigabits of information transmission vs. megabits. With all the advantages of fiber vs. copper, increased speed being a key selling point for consumers, why aren't all companies going all-out with fiber optic service?? The answer?? Cost.? Fiber optic transmission equipment and fiber optic cables are by themselves very expensive.? Even if the fiber optic cable network was well-established, the transmission (company office) and reception (customer home and/or office) costs are pretty high.? And remember, every time a company would want to deliver another 10 gigabit faster speed capability, it would require new equipment at both the transmission and reception ends. For me, today, I'm okay with my current upload and download speeds.? I just don't need FIOS right now, especially since I just switched to Clear two?months ago and am very, very pleased with the capability of continuous internet service just about anywhere in FG, not to mention service to/from Portland on the MAX (except in the tunnel). Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20:57 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion * Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer * On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 13 14:09:44 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell> References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> <59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell> Message-ID: <4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/1b2c6c34/attachment.html From stevedj at teleport.com Wed May 13 14:25:43 2009 From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:25:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net><59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell> <4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer> Bob, Describing marriage as a state sponsored, non-spiritual (religious or otherwise) union leaves it as nothing but a "business" arrangement, solely for the purpose of obtaining equal legal rights. I'm O.K with that as long as everyone gets to participate- friend to friend, sibling to sibling, parent to sibling, etc. If we don't inlcude everyone, discrimination will continue. I'm not quite ready for human to pet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Carol - I'm not quite so flip as Jim Katen, but I find it really hard to believe that the State has such an interest in marriage as between a man and a woman for the protection of the family given the huge number of divorces and of dysfunctional families of which I know. Also, I personally know several families which have gay parents and very well adjusted children. It seems to me that many of the arguments now being used against gay marriage are no different than those put forward to adopt miscegenation laws and to prevent blacks and gays from adopting white children. I chalk it all up to the inability of some people to think outside the box, an inability to realize that they may have been lied to by their parents and religious leaders as to the true nature of the world. How else can one explain the high percentage of Americans who reject the age of the Earth and the workings of evolution!! It's almost Aristotelean, the ability to hold a belief in the face of contrary evidence immediately before one's own eyes. I believe that is the only explanation for how Dobson can remain so ignorant of the true statistics and yet still spout falsehoods and misstatements (which, the last time I looked, should also be one of the ten commandments, but somehow didn't make it in!!). Which, of course, brings us to the one and only solution - remove all references to marriage from the statutes, give the rights now conferred upon "married" people to those who have committed to each other through a civil ceremony which must be performed by a magistrate (municipal judge, justice of the peace, or state court judge), take away the power of any others to perform the civil ceremony (and that includes all the members of the Reverend Kirby Hensley's Universal Life Church!!), and leave marriage to the church people who want to have a spiritual joining. That way, each group can discriminate all it wants, but no one is subject to legal disability on account of (in the eyes of some) spiritual shortcoming. Just my $0.02 worth!! bob "everybody needs 144 hugs a day; it's just that most of us are about 143 short" browning ++++++++++++++++++++ Jim Katen wrote: I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. What a condescending attitude. - Jim Katen _____ On Behalf Of Carol Morgan Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize offspring. If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony with, it could be anything. ------ Original Message ------ Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Morgan To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple women, what's the difference? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Nicely written by Brown ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 13 14:27:46 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:27:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <10743-4A0B2E28-581@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <2E56C4D7030F44A2B0E17713351DD25A@EdsPortable> <28930C72BE1545588D2EE0F16793CF0F@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <19640B436ABD4373B0663642F7E4EA85@EdsPortable> Actually, can't complain. We had sunshine from Friday until today! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > Rain or no rain, Ed, I'm jealous! ;-) > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ed Davie" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > > >> Yeah, we're at the coast, in the rain. >> Ed >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! >> >> >>> Ed. >>> Maybe webtv is not as fast as your computers. However, webtv can >>> download, and upload files, and store them as well. And by you not >>> being at home, I guess your at you get away place.... >>> >>> ~alan~ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 13 14:35:21 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:35:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98A3608321AD45579B7D1AF7FC3B829E@EdsPortable> I've had FIos for almost a year now, from whenever it was available in FG, and it's been great. No dropouts, consistent speed (actually just over 13:MB) down. It doesn't cost me any more that DSL did. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Warren" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! Being somewhat familiar with fiber-optic service (FIOS) vs. cable modem vs. digital subscriber line (DSL), I'm going to wait awhile before I switch from Clear service to FIOS in the home. Why? Thought you'd never ask. :-) Fiber optic is the future. No doubt about it. I can easily foresee in my lifetime (I hit 50 this year!) where fiber optic transmission will exceed plain old copper wire transmission. There are multiple reasons on the advantage of transmitting via fiber vs. copper: bandwidth, distance (copper requires frequent refreshing of the signal), lower maintenance costs, and the biggest one: SPEED. With fiber, you're transmitting light pulses vs. electrical impulses over copper, and we're talking gigabits of information transmission vs. megabits. With all the advantages of fiber vs. copper, increased speed being a key selling point for consumers, why aren't all companies going all-out with fiber optic service? The answer? Cost. Fiber optic transmission equipment and fiber optic cables are by themselves very expensive. Even if the fiber optic cable network was well-established, the transmission (company office) and reception (customer home and/or office) costs are pretty high. And remember, every time a company would want to deliver another 10 gigabit faster speed capability, it would require new equipment at both the transmission and reception ends. For me, today, I'm okay with my current upload and download speeds. I just don't need FIOS right now, especially since I just switched to Clear two months ago and am very, very pleased with the capability of continuous internet service just about anywhere in FG, not to mention service to/from Portland on the MAX (except in the tunnel). Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20:57 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion * Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer * On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 15:24:10 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! In-Reply-To: <98A3608321AD45579B7D1AF7FC3B829E@EdsPortable> References: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <98A3608321AD45579B7D1AF7FC3B829E@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <478377.35667.qm@web35206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My apologies . . . I figured Verizon would offer FIOS cost-competitively to DSL or Cable Modem service.? And Ed, your experience with up/down speed consistency plus good reliability is exactly what I would expect from FIOS. I'm in the process of switching over to?Clear from DSL.? I've had DSL?for over 12 years and?it's a?big deal switching over because of having to migrate friends, family and my wife's Clients to start using?different email address extensions.??I switched to Clear?because of price and usability?as WiMax is?truly like a blanket compared to WiFi requiring close?proximity to a?Hot Spot. I'm guessing some day I'll go to FIOS.? But with me it could easily be anothe 12 years.? :-) ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Ed Davie To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:35:21 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! I've had FIos for almost a year now, from whenever it was available in FG, and it's been great. No dropouts, consistent speed (actually just over 13:MB) down. It doesn't cost me any more that DSL did. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Warren" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! Being somewhat familiar with fiber-optic service (FIOS) vs. cable modem vs. digital subscriber line (DSL), I'm going to wait awhile before I switch from Clear service to FIOS in the home. Why? Thought you'd never ask. :-) Fiber optic is the future. No doubt about it. I can easily foresee in my lifetime (I hit 50 this year!) where fiber optic transmission will exceed plain old copper wire transmission. There are multiple reasons on the advantage of transmitting via fiber vs. copper: bandwidth, distance (copper requires frequent refreshing of the signal), lower maintenance costs, and the biggest one: SPEED. With fiber, you're transmitting light pulses vs. electrical impulses over copper, and we're talking gigabits of information transmission vs. megabits. With all the advantages of fiber vs. copper, increased speed being a key selling point for consumers, why aren't all companies going all-out with fiber optic service? The answer? Cost. Fiber optic transmission equipment and fiber optic cables are by themselves very expensive. Even if the fiber optic cable network was well-established, the transmission (company office) and reception (customer home and/or office) costs are pretty high. And remember, every time a company would want to deliver another 10 gigabit faster speed capability, it would require new equipment at both the transmission and reception ends. For me, today, I'm okay with my current upload and download speeds. I just don't need FIOS right now, especially since I just switched to Clear two months ago and am very, very pleased with the capability of continuous internet service just about anywhere in FG, not to mention service to/from Portland on the MAX (except in the tunnel). Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20:57 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion * Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer * On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From camorgan at stanfordalumni.org Wed May 13 16:29:52 2009 From: camorgan at stanfordalumni.org (Carol Morgan) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:29:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . Message-ID: <570NemXC17068S11.1242257392@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/7b67ec6d/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 16:31:13 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:31:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! References: <10743-4A0B2E28-581@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><2E56C4D7030F44A2B0E17713351DD25A@EdsPortable><28930C72BE1545588D2EE0F16793CF0F@gerianehzkfhvy> <19640B436ABD4373B0663642F7E4EA85@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <144551CC9BDC45A5B3FD3785338E1F1A@gerianehzkfhvy> Nice! Now I'm green with envy, as I sit here watching the rain ... again! ; ) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > Actually, can't complain. We had sunshine from Friday until today! > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > > >> Rain or no rain, Ed, I'm jealous! ;-) >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ed Davie" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! >> >> >>> Yeah, we're at the coast, in the rain. >>> Ed >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! >>> >>> >>>> Ed. >>>> Maybe webtv is not as fast as your computers. However, webtv can >>>> download, and upload files, and store them as well. And by you not >>>> being at home, I guess your at you get away place.... >>>> >>>> ~alan~ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 16:32:18 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:32:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net><59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell><4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com> <48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer> Message-ID: <5D1980F71BDE4FDEB8405598DDBD23C6@gerianehzkfhvy> Folks, we're talking human beings here. You know, we the *people,* adults who should all have the same civil rights. If homosexual couples wish to be tied together in a civil arrangement and receive equal legal rights, (and by the way, some churches *will* perform a spiritual ceremony), it makes no sense to me that some people still bring up animals, etc.!! Talk about absolutely useless objections! Judge Browning, I like your idea about all those hugs. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Bob, > > Describing marriage as a state sponsored, non-spiritual (religious or otherwise) union leaves it as nothing but a "business" arrangement, solely for the purpose of obtaining equal legal rights. I'm O.K with that as long as everyone gets to participate- friend to friend, sibling to sibling, parent to sibling, etc. If we don't inlcude everyone, discrimination will continue. > > I'm not quite ready for human to pet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Carol - I'm not quite so flip as Jim Katen, but I find it really hard to believe that the State has such an interest in marriage as between a man and a woman for the protection of the family given the huge number of divorces and of dysfunctional families of which I know. Also, I personally know several families which have gay parents and very well adjusted children. It seems to me that many of the arguments now being used against gay marriage are no different than those put forward to adopt miscegenation laws and to prevent blacks and gays from adopting white children. > > I chalk it all up to the inability of some people to think outside the box, an inability to realize that they may have been lied to by their parents and religious leaders as to the true nature of the world. How else can one explain the high percentage of Americans who reject the age of the Earth and the workings of evolution!! It's almost Aristotelean, the ability to hold a belief in the face of contrary evidence immediately before one's own eyes. I believe that is the only explanation for how Dobson can remain so ignorant of the true statistics and yet still spout falsehoods and misstatements (which, the last time I looked, should also be one of the ten commandments, but somehow didn't make it in!!). > > Which, of course, brings us to the one and only solution - remove all references to marriage from the statutes, give the rights now conferred upon "married" people to those who have committed to each other through a civil ceremony which must be performed by a magistrate (municipal judge, justice of the peace, or state court judge), take away the power of any others to perform the civil ceremony (and that includes all the members of the Reverend Kirby Hensley's Universal Life Church!!), and leave marriage to the church people who want to have a spiritual joining. That way, each group can discriminate all it wants, but no one is subject to legal disability on account of (in the eyes of some) spiritual shortcoming. > > Just my $0.02 worth!! > > bob "everybody needs 144 hugs a day; it's just that most of us are about 143 short" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Jim Katen wrote: > I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. > > What a condescending attitude. > > - Jim Katen > > _____ > > On Behalf Of Carol Morgan > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize > offspring. > > If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony with, > it could be anything. > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carol Morgan > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple > women, what's the difference? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Nicely written by Brown ... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed May 13 17:22:07 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer> Message-ID: Absolutely. Right now you could get around estate tax by marriage. Anna Nicole Smith for example. The old guy gave her millions. On his death, she could have married a grandchild of the old guy and helped to pass on those millions tax free. Why should ANYONE get benefits of another? This is similar to the health insurance discussions. Why should the employer be involved in your personal health insurance at all. It all boils down to folks getting something from the government. If I want someone to help me in my time of need, if I want to give someone all my possessions, I'll write it in a will or via contract. Why does the government have to deal with any of this? It is not an issue of common defense or interstate commerce. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Steve Jerrett > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:26 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Bob, > > Describing marriage as a state sponsored, non-spiritual (religious or > otherwise) union leaves it as nothing but a "business" arrangement, solely > for the purpose of obtaining equal legal rights. I'm O.K with that as long > as everyone gets to participate- friend to friend, sibling to sibling, > parent to sibling, etc. If we don't inlcude everyone, discrimination will > continue. > > I'm not quite ready for human to pet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of > time. > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Carol - I'm not quite so flip as Jim Katen, but I find it really hard to > believe that the State has such an interest in marriage as between a man > and a woman for the protection of the family given the huge number of > divorces and of dysfunctional families of which I know. Also, I personally > know several families which have gay parents and very well adjusted > children. It seems to me that many of the arguments now being used against > gay marriage are no different than those put forward to adopt > miscegenation laws and to prevent blacks and gays from adopting white > children. > > I chalk it all up to the inability of some people to think outside the > box, an inability to realize that they may have been lied to by their > parents and religious leaders as to the true nature of the world. How else > can one explain the high percentage of Americans who reject the age of the > Earth and the workings of evolution!! It's almost Aristotelean, the > ability to hold a belief in the face of contrary evidence immediately > before one's own eyes. I believe that is the only explanation for how > Dobson can remain so ignorant of the true statistics and yet still spout > falsehoods and misstatements (which, the last time I looked, should also > be one of the ten commandments, but somehow didn't make it in!!). > > Which, of course, brings us to the one and only solution - remove all > references to marriage from the statutes, give the rights now conferred > upon "married" people to those who have committed to each other through a > civil ceremony which must be performed by a magistrate (municipal judge, > justice of the peace, or state court judge), take away the power of any > others to perform the civil ceremony (and that includes all the members of > the Reverend Kirby Hensley's Universal Life Church!!), and leave marriage > to the church people who want to have a spiritual joining. That way, each > group can discriminate all it wants, but no one is subject to legal > disability on account of (in the eyes of some) spiritual shortcoming. > > Just my $0.02 worth!! > > bob "everybody needs 144 hugs a day; it's just that most of us are about > 143 short" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Jim Katen wrote: > I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. > > What a condescending attitude. > > - Jim Katen > > _____ > > On Behalf Of Carol Morgan > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize > offspring. > > If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony > with, > it could be anything. > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carol Morgan > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple > women, what's the difference? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Nicely written by Brown ... > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed May 13 17:22:06 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:22:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell> Message-ID: Marriage is a religion thing. You want a social contract, write one up. Government should be out of the whole business. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jim Katen > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:28 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. > > > > What a condescending attitude. > > > > - Jim Katen > > > > _____ > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Carol Morgan > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize > offspring. > > If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony > with, > it could be anything. > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carol Morgan > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple > women, what's the difference? > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said > it! > > No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jerrett" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > > > Geri, > > > > Pun intended? > > > > Steve > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Geri" > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... > >> > >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves > >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy > >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals > are > > >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone > will > > >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. > Allowing > > >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or > >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not > >> church! > >> > >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do > >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. > >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and > your > >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. > >> > >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > >> > >> My 2-cents. ; ) > >> Geri > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Bob Browning > >> To: Grovenet > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM > >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their > agenda > >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed > >> outcome!! > >> > >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning > >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, > >> > >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage > >> > >> by Barrett Brown > >> > >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of > >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural > >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James > >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry > King > >> in November of 2006: > >> > >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage > >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get > >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, > >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't > get > >> married." > >> > >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, > >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already > be. > > >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. > >> > >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our > >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage > [to > > >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate > >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to > >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual > >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The > Dobson > > >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater > >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for > civil > > >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this > occurs > >> will be higher than it is ten years later." > >> > >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, > the > >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that > meet > >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, > >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry > King > >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" > as > >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and > Z. > >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have > >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also > be > > >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal > >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver > professor > >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York > >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled > >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the > >> Evidence. > >> > >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil > unions > > >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased > by > > >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the > >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden > followed > > >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had > >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. > >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in > >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may > >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this > >> relationship so wrong in the first place? > >> > >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly > Stanley > > >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings > back > >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics > indicating > >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed > >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage > and > >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers > showing > > >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz > countered > >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and > >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few > >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil > unions > >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he > >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back > up > >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to > do > > >> with the institution's decline than w > >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is > >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old > these > >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages > >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials > from > >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage > rate, > >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only > constitute > > >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's > >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are > >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are > as > >> well. > >> > >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. > >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce > numbers > >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool > of > > >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce > without > >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a > >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of > married > > >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married > people > >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States > is > > >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage > >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage > >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. > >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of > >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have > >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of > >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that > percentage > >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry > >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the > course > >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions > >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. > >> > >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before > getting > > >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to > do > > >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you > happen > > >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have > >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But > >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was > in > > >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. > By > > >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and > thus > >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as > premature > >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing > >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be > reached > >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and > hinting > >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. > >> > >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly > >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. > Sure, > >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but > the > >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways > more > >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of > >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue > that > > >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the > Weekly > >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. > >> > >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I > think > > >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get > married, > > >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to > have > >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United > >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't > >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of > these > >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the > proper > >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will > become > >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude > >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math > >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. > >> > >> From: > >> > >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society > >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 > >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > ---- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > _____ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 17:33:24 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:33:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: Message-ID: <9C8F16525C824819BC363223F25942EA@gerianehzkfhvy> Got it backwards, Steven. Even after church ceremonies, legal papers have to be filed with the government. That's what gives church-married folks their rights given to them by the government (filing taxes jointly, etc., etc.) If you took government out of the whole business, no one would get their rights from the government. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Marriage is a religion thing. > You want a social contract, write one up. > Government should be out of the whole business. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Jim Katen >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:28 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. >> >> >> >> What a condescending attitude. >> >> >> >> - Jim Katen >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Carol Morgan >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> >> Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize >> offspring. >> >> If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony >> with, >> it could be anything. >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 >> From: "Geri" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> >> Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Carol Morgan >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple >> women, what's the difference? >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 >> From: "Geri" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> >> Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a said >> it! >> >> No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jerrett" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> > >> > Geri, >> > >> > Pun intended? >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Geri" >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> > >> > >> >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider themselves >> >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy >> >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) Heterosexuals >> are >> >> >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone >> will >> >> >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. >> Allowing >> >> >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or >> >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not >> >> church! >> >> >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, do >> >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, either. >> >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a Catholic and >> your >> >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. >> >> >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. >> >> >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) >> >> Geri >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Bob Browning >> >> To: Grovenet >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM >> >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their >> agenda >> >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own needed >> >> outcome!! >> >> >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, >> >> >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage >> >> >> >> by Barrett Brown >> >> >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of >> >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's cultural >> >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin James >> >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous Larry >> King >> >> in November of 2006: >> >> >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define marriage >> >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get >> >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater numbers, >> >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't >> get >> >> married." >> >> >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge trouble, >> >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must already >> be. >> >> >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. >> >> >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our >> >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define marriage >> [to >> >> >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the marriage rate >> >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define marriage [to >> >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing heterosexual >> >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The >> Dobson >> >> >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be greater >> >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for >> civil >> >> >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this >> occurs >> >> will be higher than it is ten years later." >> >> >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, >> the >> >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things that >> meet >> >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. Luckily, >> >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry >> King >> >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian countries" >> as >> >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for Y and >> Z. >> >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which have >> >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers may also >> be >> >> >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal >> >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver >> professor >> >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York >> >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book entitled >> >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the >> >> Evidence. >> >> >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil >> unions >> >> >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had increased >> by >> >> >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the >> >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden >> followed >> >> >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage rate had >> >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually lasting. >> >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in >> >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may >> >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson get this >> >> relationship so wrong in the first place? >> >> >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly >> Stanley >> >> >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary findings >> back >> >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics >> indicating >> >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead proclaimed >> >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage >> and >> >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers >> showing >> >> >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz >> countered >> >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and >> >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a few >> >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil >> unions >> >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he >> >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went back >> up >> >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has more to >> do >> >> >> with the institution's decline than w >> >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is >> >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old >> these >> >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their marriages >> >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials >> from >> >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage >> rate, >> >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only >> constitute >> >> >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's >> >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not only are >> >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples are >> as >> >> well. >> >> >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce rates. >> >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce >> numbers >> >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because the pool >> of >> >> >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce >> without >> >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that Denmark has a >> >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of >> married >> >> >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married >> people >> >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United States >> is >> >> >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage >> >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay marriage >> >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. >> >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born out of >> >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now have >> >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of >> >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that >> percentage >> >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often marry >> >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the >> course >> >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil unions >> >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. >> >> >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before >> getting >> >> >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this has to >> do >> >> >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you >> happen >> >> >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates may have >> >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. But >> >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the nineties was >> in >> >> >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to Kurtz. >> By >> >> >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil unions, and >> thus >> >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as >> premature >> >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by establishing >> >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be >> reached >> >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and >> hinting >> >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. >> >> >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly >> >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. >> Sure, >> >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but >> the >> >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many ways >> more >> >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. Of >> >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue >> that >> >> >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the >> Weekly >> >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. >> >> >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I >> think >> >> >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get >> married, >> >> >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a couple to >> have >> >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the United >> >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't >> >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of >> these >> >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the >> proper >> >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will >> become >> >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may conclude >> >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in math >> >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. >> >> >> >> From: >> >> >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society >> >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 >> >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> ---- >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed May 13 17:43:53 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:43:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <9C8F16525C824819BC363223F25942EA@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: My thoughts are WHY? Why is govt in the business. Why bother with attached benefits. What if benefits were not attached to this social contract? What if SS and such were separate from social relationships? Wouldn't that solve the problems? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Geri > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:33 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Got it backwards, Steven. Even after church ceremonies, legal > papers have to > be filed with the government. That's what gives church-married folks their > rights given to them by the government (filing taxes jointly, > etc., etc.) If > you took government out of the whole business, no one would get > their rights > from the government. > > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven" > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > Marriage is a religion thing. > > You want a social contract, write one up. > > Government should be out of the whole business. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > >> Behalf Of Jim Katen > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:28 PM > >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. > >> > >> > >> > >> What a condescending attitude. > >> > >> > >> > >> - Jim Katen > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > >> Behalf Of Carol Morgan > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM > >> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> > >> Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize > >> offspring. > >> > >> If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony > >> with, > >> it could be anything. > >> > >> > >> ------ Original Message ------ > >> Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 > >> From: "Geri" > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> > >> Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? > >> > >> Geri > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Carol Morgan > >> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys > or multiple > >> women, what's the difference? > >> > >> > >> ------ Original Message ------ > >> Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 > >> From: "Geri" > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> > >> Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I wouldn'a > said > >> it! > >> > >> No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... > >> > >> Geri > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Steve Jerrett" > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > >> > > >> > Geri, > >> > > >> > Pun intended? > >> > > >> > Steve > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Geri" > >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > > >> > > >> >> Nicely written by Brown ... > >> >> > >> >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider > themselves > >> >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & polygamy > >> >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) > Heterosexuals > >> are > >> > >> >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened someone > >> will > >> > >> >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. > >> Allowing > >> > >> >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or > >> >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not > >> >> church! > >> >> > >> >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any sense, > do > >> >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize > divorce, either. > >> >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a > Catholic and > >> your > >> >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. > >> >> > >> >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > >> >> > >> >> My 2-cents. ; ) > >> >> Geri > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Bob Browning > >> >> To: Grovenet > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM > >> >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote their > >> agenda > >> >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their > own needed > >> >> outcome!! > >> >> > >> >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning > >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >> > >> >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, > >> >> > >> >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage > >> >> > >> >> by Barrett Brown > >> >> > >> >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of > >> >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair > republic's cultural > >> >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical > kingpin James > >> >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically > credulous Larry > >> King > >> >> in November of 2006: > >> >> > >> >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define > marriage > >> >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't get > >> >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater > numbers, > >> >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just don't > >> get > >> >> married." > >> >> > >> >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge > trouble, > >> >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, > must already > >> be. > >> > >> >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. > >> >> > >> >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare our > >> >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to > define marriage > >> [to > >> > >> >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the > marriage rate > >> >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define > marriage [to > >> >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing > heterosexual > >> >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. The > >> Dobson > >> > >> >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be > greater > >> >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows for > >> civil > >> > >> >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that this > >> occurs > >> >> will be higher than it is ten years later." > >> >> > >> >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with variables, > >> the > >> >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various > things that > >> meet > >> >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. > Luckily, > >> >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the Larry > >> King > >> >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian > countries" > >> as > >> >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in > for Y and > >> Z. > >> >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, which > have > >> >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these > numbers may also > >> be > >> > >> >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall > Street Journal > >> >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver > >> professor > >> >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York > >> >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book > entitled > >> >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the > >> >> Evidence. > >> >> > >> >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay civil > >> unions > >> > >> >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate > had increased > >> by > >> > >> >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the > >> >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden > >> followed > >> > >> >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual > marriage rate had > >> >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were > actually lasting. > >> >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 percent in > >> >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we may > >> >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did > Dobson get this > >> >> relationship so wrong in the first place? > >> >> > >> >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review gadfly > >> Stanley > >> > >> >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's > preliminary findings > >> back > >> >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics > >> indicating > >> >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead > proclaimed > >> >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics > on marriage > >> and > >> >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside numbers > >> showing > >> > >> >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz > >> countered > >> >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden > and > >> >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for quite a > few > >> >> places, including the United States, which of course had no civil > >> unions > >> >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he > >> >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates went > back > >> up > >> >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate > "has more to > >> do > >> > >> >> with the institution's decline than w > >> >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's > marriage rate is > >> >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how old > >> these > >> >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their > marriages > >> >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such nuptials > >> from > >> >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's marriage > >> rate, > >> >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only > >> constitute > >> > >> >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So Kurtz's > >> >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because > not only are > >> >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older couples > are > >> as > >> >> well. > >> >> > >> >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to > divorce rates. > >> >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce > >> numbers > >> >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's > because the pool > >> of > >> > >> >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce > >> without > >> >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that > Denmark has > a > >> >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage of > >> married > >> > >> >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the married > >> people > >> >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the > United States > >> is > >> > >> >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage > >> >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay > marriage > >> >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. > >> >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are > born out of > >> >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in > Denmark now have > >> >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of > >> >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that > >> percentage > >> >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents > often marry > >> >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in the > >> course > >> >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay > civil unions > >> >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. > >> >> > >> >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children before > >> getting > >> > >> >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what > this has to > >> do > >> > >> >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, you > >> happen > >> > >> >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock > birthrates may have > >> >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its slide. > But > >> >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the > nineties was > >> in > >> > >> >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more > disturbing to Kurtz. > >> By > >> > >> >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil > unions, and > >> thus > >> >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as > >> premature > >> >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by > establishing > >> >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be > >> reached > >> >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," and > >> hinting > >> >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. > >> >> > >> >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly > >> >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population growth. > >> Sure, > >> >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, but > >> the > >> >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in > many ways > >> more > >> >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin down. > Of > >> >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably argue > >> that > >> > >> >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, the > >> Weekly > >> >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. > >> >> > >> >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? Personally, I > >> think > >> > >> >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get > >> married, > >> > >> >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a > couple to > >> have > >> >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in > the United > >> >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't > >> >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are all of > >> these > >> >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out the > >> proper > >> >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What will > >> become > >> >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may > conclude > >> >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts in > math > >> >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. > >> >> > >> >> From: > >> >> > >> >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society > >> >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 > >> >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >> -- > >> ---- > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >> -- > >> ---- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From stevedj at teleport.com Wed May 13 17:45:04 2009 From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:45:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net><59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell><4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com><48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer> <5D1980F71BDE4FDEB8405598DDBD23C6@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <68A75862111A4CC0909E351DCBCC6747@Maincomputer> You know, we the *people,* adults who should all have the same civil rights. If homosexual couples wish to be tied together in a civil arrangement and receive equal legal rights, (and by the way, some churches *will* perform a spiritual ceremony), it makes no sense to me that some people still bring up animals, etc.!! Talk about absolutely useless objections! Geri, Just homosexuals? If/when homosexuals receive rights, will they be on the inside calling the excluded one's objections useless? Is that any different than heterosexuals now calling homosexual's objections useless? Why should it be based on sexuality? Why not two friends that love each other but are not sexual? When non-sexual couples demand equal rights, will hetero/homo couples be required to prove a sexual relationship to qualify? Will a sworn statement suffice? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > Folks, we're talking human beings here. You know, we the *people,* adults > who should all have the same civil rights. If homosexual couples wish to > be tied together in a civil arrangement and receive equal legal rights, > (and by the way, some churches *will* perform a spiritual ceremony), it > makes no sense to me that some people still bring up animals, etc.!! Talk > about absolutely useless objections! > > Judge Browning, I like your idea about all those hugs. > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jerrett" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Bob, >> >> Describing marriage as a state sponsored, non-spiritual (religious or >> otherwise) union leaves it as nothing but a "business" arrangement, >> solely for the purpose of obtaining equal legal rights. I'm O.K with that >> as long as everyone gets to participate- friend to friend, sibling to >> sibling, parent to sibling, etc. If we don't inlcude everyone, >> discrimination will continue. >> >> I'm not quite ready for human to pet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of >> time. >> >> Steve >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >> Carol - I'm not quite so flip as Jim Katen, but I find it really hard to >> believe that the State has such an interest in marriage as between a man >> and a woman for the protection of the family given the huge number of >> divorces and of dysfunctional families of which I know. Also, I >> personally know several families which have gay parents and very well >> adjusted children. It seems to me that many of the arguments now being >> used against gay marriage are no different than those put forward to >> adopt miscegenation laws and to prevent blacks and gays from adopting >> white children. >> >> I chalk it all up to the inability of some people to think outside the >> box, an inability to realize that they may have been lied to by their >> parents and religious leaders as to the true nature of the world. How >> else can one explain the high percentage of Americans who reject the age >> of the Earth and the workings of evolution!! It's almost Aristotelean, >> the ability to hold a belief in the face of contrary evidence immediately >> before one's own eyes. I believe that is the only explanation for how >> Dobson can remain so ignorant of the true statistics and yet still spout >> falsehoods and misstatements (which, the last time I looked, should also >> be one of the ten commandments, but somehow didn't make it in!!). >> >> Which, of course, brings us to the one and only solution - remove all >> references to marriage from the statutes, give the rights now conferred >> upon "married" people to those who have committed to each other through a >> civil ceremony which must be performed by a magistrate (municipal judge, >> justice of the peace, or state court judge), take away the power of any >> others to perform the civil ceremony (and that includes all the members >> of the Reverend Kirby Hensley's Universal Life Church!!), and leave >> marriage to the church people who want to have a spiritual joining. That >> way, each group can discriminate all it wants, but no one is subject to >> legal disability on account of (in the eyes of some) spiritual >> shortcoming. >> >> Just my $0.02 worth!! >> >> bob "everybody needs 144 hugs a day; it's just that most of us are about >> 143 short" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++ >> Jim Katen wrote: >> I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. >> >> What a condescending attitude. >> >> - Jim Katen >> >> _____ >> >> On Behalf Of Carol Morgan >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize >> offspring. >> >> If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony >> with, >> it could be anything. >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 >> From: "Geri" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Carol Morgan >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple >> women, what's the difference? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Geri" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> Nicely written by Brown ... >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 13 18:01:32 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 18:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net><59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell><4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com><48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer><5D1980F71BDE4FDEB8405598DDBD23C6@gerianehzkfhvy> <68A75862111A4CC0909E351DCBCC6747@Maincomputer> Message-ID: The reason I was talking about gays/lesbians, is because that is the subject. No other adult group of American citizens is excluded from legally marrying. It is legal for heterosexual adults to marry -- doesn't matter if they're just friends, convicts, con artists, or fine upstanding citizens! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jerrett" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > You know, we the *people,* adults who should all have the same civil rights. > If homosexual couples wish to be tied together in a civil arrangement and > receive equal legal rights, (and by the way, some churches *will* perform a > spiritual ceremony), it makes no sense to me that some people still bring up > animals, etc.!! Talk about absolutely useless objections! > > Geri, > > Just homosexuals? > > If/when homosexuals receive rights, will they be on the inside calling the > excluded one's objections useless? Is that any different than heterosexuals > now calling homosexual's objections useless? > > Why should it be based on sexuality? Why not two friends that love each > other but are not sexual? > > When non-sexual couples demand equal rights, will hetero/homo couples be > required to prove a sexual relationship to qualify? Will a sworn statement > suffice? > > Steve > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > >> Folks, we're talking human beings here. You know, we the *people,* adults >> who should all have the same civil rights. If homosexual couples wish to >> be tied together in a civil arrangement and receive equal legal rights, >> (and by the way, some churches *will* perform a spiritual ceremony), it >> makes no sense to me that some people still bring up animals, etc.!! Talk >> about absolutely useless objections! >> >> Judge Browning, I like your idea about all those hugs. >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Jerrett" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >> >> >>> Bob, >>> >>> Describing marriage as a state sponsored, non-spiritual (religious or >>> otherwise) union leaves it as nothing but a "business" arrangement, >>> solely for the purpose of obtaining equal legal rights. I'm O.K with that >>> as long as everyone gets to participate- friend to friend, sibling to >>> sibling, parent to sibling, etc. If we don't inlcude everyone, >>> discrimination will continue. >>> >>> I'm not quite ready for human to pet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of >>> time. >>> >>> Steve >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bob Browning >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:09 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >>> >>> >>> Carol - I'm not quite so flip as Jim Katen, but I find it really hard to >>> believe that the State has such an interest in marriage as between a man >>> and a woman for the protection of the family given the huge number of >>> divorces and of dysfunctional families of which I know. Also, I >>> personally know several families which have gay parents and very well >>> adjusted children. It seems to me that many of the arguments now being >>> used against gay marriage are no different than those put forward to >>> adopt miscegenation laws and to prevent blacks and gays from adopting >>> white children. >>> >>> I chalk it all up to the inability of some people to think outside the >>> box, an inability to realize that they may have been lied to by their >>> parents and religious leaders as to the true nature of the world. How >>> else can one explain the high percentage of Americans who reject the age >>> of the Earth and the workings of evolution!! It's almost Aristotelean, >>> the ability to hold a belief in the face of contrary evidence immediately >>> before one's own eyes. I believe that is the only explanation for how >>> Dobson can remain so ignorant of the true statistics and yet still spout >>> falsehoods and misstatements (which, the last time I looked, should also >>> be one of the ten commandments, but somehow didn't make it in!!). >>> >>> Which, of course, brings us to the one and only solution - remove all >>> references to marriage from the statutes, give the rights now conferred >>> upon "married" people to those who have committed to each other through a >>> civil ceremony which must be performed by a magistrate (municipal judge, >>> justice of the peace, or state court judge), take away the power of any >>> others to perform the civil ceremony (and that includes all the members >>> of the Reverend Kirby Hensley's Universal Life Church!!), and leave >>> marriage to the church people who want to have a spiritual joining. That >>> way, each group can discriminate all it wants, but no one is subject to >>> legal disability on account of (in the eyes of some) spiritual >>> shortcoming. >>> >>> Just my $0.02 worth!! >>> >>> bob "everybody needs 144 hugs a day; it's just that most of us are about >>> 143 short" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++ >>> Jim Katen wrote: >>> I guess infertile atheists don't count for much in your world view. >>> >>> What a condescending attitude. >>> >>> - Jim Katen >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> On Behalf Of Carol Morgan >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:14 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >>> >>> Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and legitimize >>> offspring. >>> >>> If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment ceremony >>> with, >>> it could be anything. >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 >>> From: "Geri" >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >>> >>> Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Carol Morgan >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >>> >>> The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or multiple >>> women, what's the difference? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Geri" >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . >>> Nicely written by Brown ... >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Wed May 13 21:41:52 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 21:41:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <10BD16D4-8425-4B2D-AD46-944F70AB2F52@verizon.net> I always thought that historically marriage was more or less a business proposition. In many cultures it is to transfer property (the bride) to the male and if necessary a dowery of sufficient value to keep her alive. (To pay him for the responsibility to feed her and shelter her etc.) For a long time in Europe marriage was a way to keep property (real estate and collections of valuables) within certain families- the royalty families mostly, and legitimize only certain children. Marriage wasn't required to legitimize children of the lower classes because there was no property to pass on to them. The state and the church (which was often the governing body) didn't really care if the peasants were properly married since they couldn't get taxes/tithes out of them either. Even in more modern history, marriage can be more or less a survival technique. One of my relatives was doing some genealogy and I don't remember whether it was my great great great great great grandfather or one with one more great in front of it. But his wife died during childbirth with his 13th child. He pretty much immediately married another woman. No one asked him at the time whether he was motivated by his religious principles or a need to have more legitimate offspring but I've always figured it was just to give his surviving kids and him, a chance to eat on a regular basis. She had kids too and she likely did it to give her children a chance at some sustenance too. Marriage today has evolved into a multi-purposed thing. And it is highly regulated by powerful institutions regardless of whether that institution is a religion or the government. I think the whole thing boils down to how we define what is our government. If government is of the people and by the people then we can use trends and consensus to change what our government does to us and for us and what it requires us to do for a marriage license and what benefits we can expect from the government (automatic property transfer at death, visitation in hospitals, coverage on family insurance policies regulated by the states etc.) If the people control the government of the US then we will likely see some changes in marriage laws over the next decade, because the population is shifting its views all the time. Katie On May 13, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Carol Morgan wrote: > Marriage has traditionally been to covenant before god and > legitimize offspring. > > If it is just who you want to have a nice little committment > ceremony with, it could be anything. > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > Sorry, Carol, not understanding your comment ... ? > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carol Morgan > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > The relationship is that if men just happen to like men boys or > multiple women, what's the difference? > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 11:41 AM PDT, 05/13/2009 > From: "Geri" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > Ha! Darn, Steve, if I'd known someone might think of that, I > wouldn'a said it! > > No, didn't think of that, actually, so no pun intended ... > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Jerrett" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > > > > Geri, > > > > Pun intended? > > > > Steve > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Geri" > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > > > > > >> Nicely written by Brown ... > >> > >> I don't understand how some (often it is folks who consider > themselves > >> fervently religious) equate homosexuality with pedophilia & > polygamy > >> either! (Psst! Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.) > Heterosexuals are > >> allowed the civil right of marriage without being frightened > someone will > >> say they are preying on children or having more than one spouse. > Allowing > >> the civil right of marriage does not force any church to perform or > >> recognize it -- The legality of marriage comes from government, not > >> church! > >> > >> Oh, the "certain groups" you refer to Bob just don't make any > sense, do > >> they?! Example: the Catholic Church didn't recognize divorce, > either. > >> However, you can get legally divorced, even if you are a > Catholic and your > >> church then doesn't allow you to fully participate after that. > >> > >> The politically-religious should butt out of this one. > >> > >> My 2-cents. ; ) > >> Geri > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Bob Browning > >> To: Grovenet > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:54 AM > >> Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . > >> > >> > >> Here' another sign of how certain groups in America promote > their agenda > >> by not only ignoring the truth, but by bending it to their own > needed > >> outcome!! > >> > >> bob "lies, damned lies, and made up statistics" browning > >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > >> Adventures in Math & Marriage or, > >> > >> Why Gay Marriage Does Not Decrease Straight Marriage > >> > >> by Barrett Brown > >> > >> Does the legalization of gay marriage contribute to the decline of > >> heterosexual marriage? A good portion of our fair republic's > cultural > >> conservatives seem to believe that it does. Evangelical kingpin > James > >> Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, told a typically credulous > Larry King > >> in November of 2006: > >> > >> "In the Netherlands and places where they have tried to define > marriage > >> [to include gay couples], what happens is that people just don't > get > >> married. It's not that the homosexuals are marrying in greater > numbers, > >> it's that when you confuse what marriage is, young people just > don't get > >> married." > >> > >> If what Dobson says is true, New Jersey is going to be in huge > trouble, > >> and Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, must > already be. > >> Of course, Dobson is wrong. Here's why. > >> > >> First, let's think about this problem mathematically and prepare > our > >> variables. X is any country "where they have tried to define > marriage [to > >> include gay couples]," in Dobson's description. Y is the > marriage rate > >> among heterosexuals before country X has "tried to define > marriage [to > >> include gay couples]," and Z is the allegedly decreasing > heterosexual > >> marriage rate that exists after ten years of gay civil unions. > The Dobson > >> Theorem, as we shall call it, states that "if X, then Y must be > greater > >> than Z." Or, translating math into English, "if a nation allows > for civil > >> unions, the marriage rate among heterosexuals at the time that > this occurs > >> will be higher than it is ten years later." > >> > >> Let us now test the Dobson Theorem. Like most things with > variables, the > >> Dobson Theorem requires that X be substituted for various things > that meet > >> the parameters of X-in this case, northern European countries. > Luckily, > >> Dr. Dobson himself has provided us with some data. During the > Larry King > >> interview, Dobson mentioned Norway and "other Scandinavian > countries" as > >> fitting the description. We'll also need values to punch in for > Y and Z. > >> These may be obtained from all of the countries in question, > which have > >> famously nosy governments. Conveniently enough, these numbers > may also be > >> obtained from the October 26, 2008 edition of the Wall Street > Journal > >> op-ed page, where William N. Eskridge, Jr., the John A. Garver > professor > >> of jurisprudence at Yale University, and Darren Spedale, a New York > >> investment banker, penned an editorial based on their new book > entitled > >> Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned From the > >> Evidence. > >> > >> According to Eskridge and Garver, Denmark began allowing gay > civil unions > >> in 1989. Ten years later, the heterosexual marriage rate had > increased by > >> 10.7 percent. Norway did the same in 1993, and a decade later the > >> heterosexual marriage rate had increased by 12.7 percent. Sweden > followed > >> suite in 1995, and ten years later the heterosexual marriage > rate had > >> increased by 28.7 percent. And these marriages were actually > lasting. > >> During the same time frame, the divorce rate dropped 13.9 > percent in > >> Denmark, 6 percent in Norway, and 13.7 percent in Sweden. So, we > may > >> probably dispense with the Dobson Theorem. But how did Dobson > get this > >> relationship so wrong in the first place? > >> > >> The culprit may be the Weekly Standard and National Review > gadfly Stanley > >> Kurtz, who took issue with Garver and Eskridge's preliminary > findings back > >> in 2004, before they were published. Confronted with statistics > indicating > >> that marriage in Scandinavia is in fine shape, Kurtz instead > proclaimed > >> that "Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on > marriage and > >> divorce no longer mean what they used to." Brushing aside > numbers showing > >> that Danish marriage was up ten percent from 1990 to 1996, Kurtz > countered > >> that "just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in > Sweden and > >> Denmark." He failed to note that they were down in 2001 for > quite a few > >> places, including the United States, which of course had no > civil unions > >> anywhere in 2001. And having not yet had access to the figures, he > >> couldn't have known that both American and Scandinavian rates > went back up > >> in 2002. As for Norway, he says, the higher marriage rate "has > more to do > >> with the institution's decline than w > >> ith any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage > rate is > >> driven by older couples 'catching up.'" It's unclear exactly how > old these > >> "older couples" may be, but at any rate, Kurtz thinks their > marriages > >> simply don't count. But even if we arbitrarily strike such > nuptials from > >> the record, we're still left with an increase in Norway's > marriage rate, > >> as Kurtz himself acknowledges that these oldster nuptials only > constitute > >> "much" of the increase, not all of it or even most of it. So > Kurtz's > >> position is that Norwegian marriage is in decline because not > only are > >> younger couples getting married at a higher rate, but older > couples are as > >> well. > >> > >> Kurtz applies a similar level of statistical acumen to divorce > rates. > >> "It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce > numbers > >> looked better in the nineties," he wrote. "But that's because > the pool of > >> married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't > divorce without > >> first getting married." This is true. It's also true that > Denmark has a > >> much lower divorce rate than the United States as a percentage > of married > >> couples, a method of calculation that makes the size of the > married people > >> pool irrelevant. Denmark's percentage is 44.5, while the United > States is > >> at 54.8 percent. Incidentally, those numbers come from the Heritage > >> Foundation, which also sponsors reports on the danger that gay > marriage > >> poses to the heterosexual marriage rate. > >> Still, Kurtz is upset that many Scandinavian children are born > out of > >> wedlock. "About 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark now > have > >> unmarried parents," he says. He doesn't give us the percentage of > >> second-born children who have unmarried parents, because that > percentage > >> is lower and would thus indicate that Scandinavian parents often > marry > >> after having their first child, as Kurtz himself later notes in > the course > >> of predicting that this will no longer be the case as gay civil > unions > >> continue to take their non-existent toll on Scandinavian marriage. > >> > >> Since the rate by which Scandinavian couples have children > before getting > >> married has been rising for decades, it's hard to see what this > has to do > >> with the more recent advent of gay marriage-unless, of course, > you happen > >> to be Stanley Kurtz. "Scandinavia's out-of-wedlock birthrates > may have > >> risen more rapidly in the seventies, when marriage began its > slide. But > >> the push of that rate past the 50 percent mark during the > nineties was in > >> many ways more disturbing." Of course it was more disturbing to > Kurtz. By > >> the mid-1990s, the Scandinavians had all instituted civil > unions, and thus > >> even the clear, long-established trajectory of such a trend as > premature > >> baby-bearing can be laid at the feet of the gays simply by > establishing > >> some arbitrary numerical benchmark that was probably going to be > reached > >> anyway, calling this milestone "in many ways more disturbing," > and hinting > >> that all of this is somehow the fault of the gays. > >> > >> By the same token, I can prove that the establishment of the Weekly > >> Standard in 1995 has contributed to rampant world population > growth. Sure, > >> that population growth has been increasing steadily for decades, > but the > >> push of that number past the 6 billion mark in 2000 was "in many > ways more > >> disturbing" to me for some weird reason that I can't quite pin > down. Of > >> course, this is faulty reasoning. One could just as reasonably > argue that > >> by virtue of its unparalleled support for the invasion of Iraq, > the Weekly > >> Standard has actually done its part to keep world population down. > >> > >> Why is Kurtz so disturbed about out-of-wedlock rates? > Personally, I think > >> it would be preferable for a couple to have a child and then get > married, > >> as is more often the case in Scandinavia, rather than for a > couple to have > >> a child and then get divorced, as is more often the case in the > United > >> States. Kurtz doesn't seem to feel this way, though, as it isn't > >> convenient to feel this way at this particular time. Here are > all of these > >> couples, he tells us, having babies without first filling out > the proper > >> baby-making paperwork with the proper federal agencies. What > will become > >> of the babies? As long as we're looking at trend lines, we may > conclude > >> that they'll continue to outperform their American counterparts > in math > >> and science, as they've been doing for quite a while. > >> > >> From: > >> > >> eSkeptic: the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society > >> Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 | ISSN 1556-5696 > >> View at: www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-13 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu May 14 11:03:15 2009 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:03:15 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals Message-ID: AND my half cent worth... CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in the people and country. The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our great country to the worse. The United States of America was founded on Christian values and principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' or a 'I can do whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets make it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star Trek is a fictional story. Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off while getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be paying for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want to twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or that entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot afford. All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great one" (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and Mac to DC with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great country. "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. How sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy will continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will come out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised if they don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are often ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These laws are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the morality of the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute those that break the laws. It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to teach and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, Church and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, but teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me feel good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches today may claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their utopian agenda. Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will likely take years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become more divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are actually guilty of doing...... Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and people enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will reject. I will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be quietly ignored. Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness that has taken over our great country. Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. Though, the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals on this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into obscurity again. May God bless you in all that you do. Ex-Oregonian **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi) From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu May 14 11:14:08 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905141114v3acf53d3kfd4ef5f6d34a183b@mail.gmail.com> Wow. Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in the > people and country. > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our great > country to the worse. > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' or a > 'I can do > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets make > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star Trek > is a fictional story. > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off while > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be paying > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want to > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or that > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > afford. > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great one" > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and Mac > to DC > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > country. > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. How > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy will > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will > come > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised if > they > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are > often > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These > laws > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the morality > of > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute those > that break the laws. > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to teach > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, Church > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, but > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me feel > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches today > may > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their utopian > agenda. > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > likely take > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become more > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are > actually guilty of doing...... > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and people > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will reject. > I > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > quietly > ignored. > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness > that has taken over our great country. > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. Though, > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals on > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into > obscurity again. > > May God bless you in all that you do. > Ex-Oregonian > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Thu May 14 11:52:22 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 11:52:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0C6866.6040004@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090514/58e0194d/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu May 14 12:07:00 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:07:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <5D1980F71BDE4FDEB8405598DDBD23C6@gerianehzkfhvy> References: <122NemTmO0044S11.1242242020@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net><59EAFB14FC514F39AFC399A1925B209B@JimDell><4A0B3718.2040009@jurislex.com> <48004B3D80F04C14A22F5C1441D7C6F1@Maincomputer> <5D1980F71BDE4FDEB8405598DDBD23C6@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <4A0C6BD4.3020507@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090514/e8b5e0e4/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu May 14 12:17:01 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:17:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, and evangelicals . . . In-Reply-To: <570NemXC17068S11.1242257392@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> References: <570NemXC17068S11.1242257392@cmsweb11.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <4A0C6E2D.9050908@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090514/2ffcc633/attachment.html From Jamsm at aol.com Thu May 14 12:20:46 2009 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:20:46 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals Message-ID: Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side every day! Obviously, I have a different opinion as to where the world and United States is headed than you. In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, smithsmith at gmail.com writes: Wow. Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in the > people and country. > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our great > country to the worse. > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' or a > 'I can do > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets make > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star Trek > is a fictional story. > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off while > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be paying > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want to > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or that > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > afford. > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great one" > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and Mac > to DC > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > country. > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. How > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy will > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will > come > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised if > they > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are > often > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These > laws > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the morality > of > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute those > that break the laws. > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to teach > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, Church > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, but > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me feel > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches today > may > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their utopian > agenda. > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > likely take > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become more > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are > actually guilty of doing...... > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and people > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will reject. > I > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > quietly > ignored. > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness > that has taken over our great country. > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. Though, > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals on > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into > obscurity again. > > May God bless you in all that you do. > Ex-Oregonian > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi) From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:43:30 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:43:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905141243q4530c00ftbf3fb6c08e4e72bf@mail.gmail.com> I don't know who you are - but you are assuming that you know my beliefs - when all I was trying to say is that you seemed a bit uh, grumpy.... Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side every day! > Obviously, I have a different opinion as to where the world and United > States is headed than you. > > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > Wow. > Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in > the > > people and country. > > > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even > > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay > > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our > great > > country to the worse. > > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' > or a > > 'I can do > > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets > make > > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star > Trek > > is a fictional story. > > > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off > while > > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those > > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be > paying > > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want > to > > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or > that > > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > > afford. > > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable > > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great > one" > > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and > Mac > > to DC > > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they > > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > > country. > > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. > How > > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy > will > > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will > > come > > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait > > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised > if > > they > > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and > > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are > > often > > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These > > laws > > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the > morality > > of > > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute > those > > that break the laws. > > > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to > teach > > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, > Church > > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, > but > > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me > feel > > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches > today > > may > > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our > > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our > > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their > utopian > > agenda. > > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > > likely take > > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are > > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become > more > > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are > > actually guilty of doing...... > > > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal > > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and > people > > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will > reject. > > I > > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > > quietly > > ignored. > > > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness > > that has taken over our great country. > > > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. > Though, > > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other > > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals > on > > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into > > obscurity again. > > > > May God bless you in all that you do. > > Ex-Oregonian > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > > instant savings! > > ( > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > ) > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From Jamsm at aol.com Thu May 14 12:45:09 2009 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:45:09 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals Message-ID: Not grumpy.. am just on the RIGHT side! In a message dated 5/14/2009 3:43:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, smithsmith at gmail.com writes: I don't know who you are - but you are assuming that you know my beliefs - when all I was trying to say is that you seemed a bit uh, grumpy.... Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side every day! > Obviously, I have a different opinion as to where the world and United > States is headed than you. > > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > Wow. > Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in > the > > people and country. > > > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even > > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay > > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our > great > > country to the worse. > > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' > or a > > 'I can do > > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets > make > > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star > Trek > > is a fictional story. > > > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off > while > > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those > > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be > paying > > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want > to > > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or > that > > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > > afford. > > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable > > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great > one" > > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and > Mac > > to DC > > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they > > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > > country. > > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. > How > > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy > will > > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will > > come > > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait > > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised > if > > they > > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and > > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are > > often > > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These > > laws > > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the > morality > > of > > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute > those > > that break the laws. > > > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to > teach > > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, > Church > > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, > but > > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me > feel > > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches > today > > may > > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our > > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our > > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their > utopian > > agenda. > > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > > likely take > > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are > > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become > more > > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are > > actually guilty of doing...... > > > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal > > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and > people > > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will > reject. > > I > > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > > quietly > > ignored. > > > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness > > that has taken over our great country. > > > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. > Though, > > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other > > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals > on > > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into > > obscurity again. > > > > May God bless you in all that you do. > > Ex-Oregonian > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > > instant savings! > > ( > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > ) > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi) From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu May 14 13:00:35 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:00:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905141300n37128292s16487351760c99a9@mail.gmail.com> Well then I misinterpreted your post. I am glad you are on the right side. I am too! Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:45 PM, wrote: > Not grumpy.. am just on the RIGHT side! > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 3:43:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > I don't know who you are - but you are assuming that you know my beliefs - > when all I was trying to say is that you seemed a bit uh, grumpy.... > Barb > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side every day! > > Obviously, I have a different opinion as to where the world and United > > States is headed than you. > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > > > Wow. > > Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. > > > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > > > > > > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > > > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back > in > > the > > > people and country. > > > > > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and > even > > > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can > repay > > > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > > > > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our > > great > > > country to the worse. > > > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > > > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' > > or a > > > 'I can do > > > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets > > make > > > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - > Star > > Trek > > > is a fictional story. > > > > > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone > off > > while > > > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of > those > > > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be > > paying > > > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will > want > > to > > > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or > > that > > > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > > > afford. > > > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with > unreasonable > > > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great > > one" > > > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and > > Mac > > > to DC > > > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as > they > > > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > > > country. > > > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry > imploded. > > How > > > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy > > will > > > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" > will > > > come > > > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just > wait > > > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be > surprised > > if > > > they > > > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > > > > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts > and > > > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws > are > > > often > > > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. > These > > > laws > > > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the > > morality > > > of > > > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute > > those > > > that break the laws. > > > > > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to > > teach > > > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, > > Church > > > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's > word, > > but > > > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me > > feel > > > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches > > today > > > may > > > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, > our > > > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of > our > > > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their > > utopian > > > agenda. > > > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > > > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > > > likely take > > > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we > are > > > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become > > more > > > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > > > > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > > > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) > are > > > actually guilty of doing...... > > > > > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a > liberal > > > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and > > people > > > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will > > reject. > > > I > > > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > > > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > > > quietly > > > ignored. > > > > > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the > craziness > > > that has taken over our great country. > > > > > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. > > Though, > > > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > > > > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names > other > > > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the > liberals > > on > > > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > > > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back > into > > > obscurity again. > > > > > > May God bless you in all that you do. > > > Ex-Oregonian > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > > > instant savings! > > > ( > > > > > > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > > ) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > > instant savings! > > ( > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > ) > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Thu May 14 13:20:21 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The United States of America was founded by men wanting to have Freedom of Choice: freedom?in worship, freedom from unfair taxation and freedom from?the tyranny of the English Crown.? Our Founding Fathers did seek Divine Providence, but they were by no means?without Vice.? Ben Franklin, as an example, was quite the bawdy fellow who had numerous mistresses throughout his life, a?truth continuously?suppressed at it wasn't in good keeping with the ideal?Christian we believed all of our Founding Fathers to be.? And let's not forget?how most, if not all, our Founding Fathers?owned Slaves.? Also remember that Thomas Jefferson had children by one of his Slaves.? Our Founding Fathers?definitely weren't?pillars of Morality. And?if we?look?at?our Nation's history through the eyes of the?Native American, most of us are, to Native Americans, "Illegals": we came, we grabbed land and claimed it "ours", and we told the Natives?what they could and could not have, where they could and could not live, how they could and could not live.? How moral is that? In terms of the mess we're in today, and it's a mess that's world-wide, step back in time to the late 1920's here in the U.S. and you'll see parallels to today.? There's a lot to the saying of "Power corrupts.? Absolute power corrupts absolutely."? Barack Obama certainly isn't perfect.? Neither was GW Bush, or Clinton, or George H. Bush for that matter.? Just like our Founding Fathers. I don't 100% agree with everyone here on Grovenet, just as I don't 100% agree with everyone where I spent the first 20+ years of my life in Ohio, but that's a good thing.? I like the healthy debates we have on Grovenet.? It's exactly what I believe our Founding Fathers would want.? And if I believe strongly enough in wanting to make a change, I'll do exactly what the original Founders did and attempt to make a difference through getting involved in Government by running for office (a yearning I'm starting to feel more interest in). I don't want to go back in time.? I want to take learnings of the past and shape the future. Allen Warren ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 11:03:15 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals AND my half cent worth... CHANGE!? Yes we need change in the Great United States of? America. We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in the? people and country. The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even? with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can? repay reflect this lack of moral principles.? It is all related! As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt? to change our great country to the worse. The United States of? America was founded on Christian values and principles. It surely was not? founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me'? or a 'I can do whatever I want so? long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'.? Oh, lets make it mandatory that? everyone has equal wealth!? Got news for you - Star Trek is a fictional? story. Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off while getting rich.? They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those? companies properly fined and punished.? The taxpayer should not be paying? for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want to? twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or that? entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot? afford. ? All the? homeowners that? purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable mortgages should pay or lose their? possessions.? Ah, but the "great one" (B.O.) has brought all of his? friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and Mac to DC with him.? The? 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they? please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great? country.? "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry? imploded.? How sorrowful this country will be.? [A small prediction...? the economy will continue to improve until just before the next election; then? "he" will come out with his lies and the economy will collapse? again. Ya'all just wait until all the new taxes come your way can? you. LOL. Will be surprised if they don't tax your gas from eating too? many Mexican beans.] Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts? and conduct that the homosexual community participate in.? These laws are? often ignored today, though most states still have them on the books.? These laws are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the? morality of the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or? prosecute those that break the laws. It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality.? Thus, we need? to teach and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home,? Church and schools.? Many of our churches are no longer teaching? God's word, but? teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear'? and 'make me feel good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own? God.? Many churches today may claim Christianity, but in fact are? anything but.? Oh, but wait, our schools are controlled by the? liberal hippie utopian loving part of our society.? It has? taken years for them to teach and spread their utopian? agenda.? Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most? likely originated with the 'free love', immoral,? utopian seekers.? It will likely take years to? undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started.? If we are? unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become more? divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone? else. The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations,? accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are? actually guilty of doing...... Oh what have I done!? Shut up already!? ...? said things that a liberal loving? town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and people enthralled by? the liberal movement do not want to hear and will reject.? I? will now? be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and? attacked for everything they can dream up or reword.? OR this will be? quietly ignored. Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness? that has taken over our great country. Sure am glad I? moved to? where it was like stepping back in time.? Though, the liberal movement is? knocking on the door here too. Please avoid any name calling.? Above I did not mention any names other than B.O. and did not make any? personal attacks on any of the liberals on this board.? After I? was attacked when I first came to the board, I have quietly read this board? for years and will likely go back into obscurity again. May God bless you in all that you? do. Ex-Oregonian **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu May 14 13:48:39 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> > From: Allen Warren > > The United States of America was founded by men wanting to > have Freedom of Choice: freedom?in worship, freedom from > unfair taxation and freedom from?the tyranny of the English > Crown.? Our Founding Fathers did seek Divine Providence, > but they were by no means?without Vice.? Ben Franklin, as > an example, was quite the bawdy fellow who had numerous > mistresses throughout his life, a?truth continuously > suppressed at it wasn't in good keeping with the ideal >?Christian we believed all of our Founding Fathers to be.? > And let's not forget?how most, if not all, our Founding > Fathers?owned Slaves.? Also remember that Thomas Jefferson > had children by one of his Slaves.? Our Founding Fathers > definitely weren't?pillars of Morality. Our founding fathers by no stretch of the definition were what we'd call christians today. In fact, they were deists, not theists. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html By the very core beliefs of deism we know they did not and would not seek divine providence. Doing so would be completely contrary to their belief that the supreme being, maker of the universe had not only removed himself entirely, but intentionally assumed no control or exerted any influence in the happenings, let alone communicate to the followers on earth should they bend a knee in prayer to seek revelation. Do not perpetuate the lies and twisting of history that modern christianity would prefer. Jeff From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Thu May 14 14:02:59 2009 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> References: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> Message-ID: <972664.82183.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for providing the link, Jeff.? It was good reading.? And I'm not surprised?by what I read though I'm guessing Christians?have and will continue to attack the?deism?notion?as blasphemy and lies. ? Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Jeff Howden To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:48:39 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals > From: Allen Warren > > The United States of America was founded by men wanting to > have Freedom of Choice: freedom?in worship, freedom from > unfair taxation and freedom from?the tyranny of the English > Crown.? Our Founding Fathers did seek Divine Providence, > but they were by no means?without Vice.? Ben Franklin, as > an example, was quite the bawdy fellow who had numerous > mistresses throughout his life, a?truth continuously > suppressed at it wasn't in good keeping with the ideal >?Christian we believed all of our Founding Fathers to be.? > And let's not forget?how most, if not all, our Founding > Fathers?owned Slaves.? Also remember that Thomas Jefferson > had children by one of his Slaves.? Our Founding Fathers > definitely weren't?pillars of Morality. Our founding fathers by no stretch of the definition were what we'd call christians today.? In fact, they were deists, not theists. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html By the very core beliefs of deism we know they did not and would not seek divine providence.? Doing so would be completely contrary to their belief that the supreme being, maker of the universe had not only removed himself entirely, but intentionally assumed no control or exerted any influence in the happenings, let alone communicate to the followers on earth should they bend a knee in prayer to seek revelation. Do not perpetuate the lies and twisting of history that modern christianity would prefer. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu May 14 14:17:09 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:17:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <972664.82183.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> <972664.82183.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <066601c9d4d9$583f3960$08bdac20$@com> Allen, > From: Allen Warren [mailto:osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com] > > Thanks for providing the link, Jeff. It was good reading. > And I'm not surprised by what I read though I'm guessing > Christians have and will continue to attack the deism > notion as blasphemy and lies. Sadly, they will attack anything they don't agree with it, understand, or feel threatens their belief system no matter how little sense it makes when you look at the facts. Just my 2?, Jeff From allnutt at verizon.net Thu May 14 14:49:34 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:49:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Concrete recommendation Message-ID: <2F1D5E0B-A2BE-4048-B071-0964EFF59EB8@verizon.net> A friend is looking for some concrete work for installing a patio. Any body have recommendations? Katie From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu May 14 14:52:51 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:52:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <066601c9d4d9$583f3960$08bdac20$@com> References: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> <972664.82183.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <066601c9d4d9$583f3960$08bdac20$@com> Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905141452y1a53e44bwdedf9fb8ffe24e2f@mail.gmail.com> Just an FYI to the people that I DO know here in FG and the person who started this post (who does not state who they are...) - I just wanted to make it clear that in politics - there is nothing too LEFT for me and as to religion - I would not presume that my personal beliefs would or should fit all. Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Allen, > > > From: Allen Warren [mailto:osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com] > > > > Thanks for providing the link, Jeff. It was good reading. > > And I'm not surprised by what I read though I'm guessing > > Christians have and will continue to attack the deism > > notion as blasphemy and lies. > > Sadly, they will attack anything they don't agree with it, understand, or > feel threatens their belief system no matter how little sense it makes when > you look at the facts. > > Just my 2?, > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Thu May 14 15:43:35 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:43:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies, damned lies, In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Thu, 14 May 2009 11:52:22 -0700 Message-ID: <12899-4A0C9E97-1330@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Bob..... Have you a copy of the book called Black Book Laws? .... For the uninformed this is a book of laws that are still on the books, but very seldom ever used,. However, still can be used if necessary. i.e. ... spitting on the side walk. From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu May 14 15:54:44 2009 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10905141452y1a53e44bwdedf9fb8ffe24e2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <384096.71359.qm@web35201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> <972664.82183.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <066601c9d4d9$583f3960$08bdac20$@com> <7eaadfd10905141452y1a53e44bwdedf9fb8ffe24e2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <068501c9d4e6$f9e65c00$edb31400$@com> > Just an FYI to the people that I DO know here in FG and > the person who started this post (who does not state who > they are...) - [...] I would not presume that my personal > beliefs would or should fit all. Yes, my statement about christians was a generalization. It was not meant to single anyone on this list out and obviously has many exceptions. However, as advances are made in science and our knowledge of how things work and why it erodes the mysteries by which christianity currently survives and as such the movement as a whole must take measures to not become irrelevant, if it hasn't already. Jeff From edavie at verizon.net Thu May 14 16:25:38 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:25:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals References: Message-ID: <1015C9A1A4814E6BA24C4196D894003F@EDavie> The right side of what? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals Not grumpy.. am just on the RIGHT side! In a message dated 5/14/2009 3:43:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, smithsmith at gmail.com writes: I don't know who you are - but you are assuming that you know my beliefs - when all I was trying to say is that you seemed a bit uh, grumpy.... Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side every day! > Obviously, I have a different opinion as to where the world and United > States is headed than you. > > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > Wow. > Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of America. > > We need to role the clock back and get principles and morality back in > the > > people and country. > > > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and even > > with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they can repay > > reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! > > > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change our > great > > country to the worse. > > The United States of America was founded on Christian values and > > principles. It surely was not founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' > or a > > 'I can do > > whatever I want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets > make > > it mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star > Trek > > is a fictional story. > > > > Why should the tax payers bail out companies that ripped everyone off > while > > getting rich. They should go bankrupt and the immoral leaders of those > > companies properly fined and punished. The taxpayer should not be > paying > > for all the illegal aliens (definition for those liberals that will want > to > > twist my meaning: those that are staying in this country illegally or > that > > entered the country illegally) that purchased homes that they cannot > > afford. > > All the homeowners that purchased/refinanced homes with unreasonable > > mortgages should pay or lose their possessions. Ah, but the "great > one" > > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from Wall Street, Freddie, and > Mac > > to DC > > with him. The 'savior' has let the liberal House and Senate do as they > > please and they are busy enacting laws that will destroy this great > > country. > > "He" was behind the very reasons that the housing industry imploded. > How > > sorrowful this country will be. [A small prediction... the economy > will > > continue to improve until just before the next election; then "he" will > > come > > out with his lies and the economy will collapse again. Ya'all just wait > > until all the new taxes come your way can you. LOL. Will be surprised > if > > they > > don't tax your gas from eating too many Mexican beans.] > > > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts and > > conduct that the homosexual community participate in. These laws are > > often > > ignored today, though most states still have them on the books. These > > laws > > are like many that are for the most part unenforceable when the > morality > > of > > the people involved has degraded and refuse to report or prosecute > those > > that break the laws. > > > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need to > teach > > and bring morality back into our society- that starts in the home, > Church > > and schools. Many of our churches are no longer teaching God's word, > but > > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I want to hear' and 'make me > feel > > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your own God. Many churches > today > > may > > claim Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Oh, but wait, our > > schools are controlled by the liberal hippie utopian loving part of our > > society. It has taken years for them to teach and spread their > utopian > > agenda. > > Today, many probably do not even realize their beliefs most likely > > originated with the 'free love', immoral, utopian seekers. It will > > likely take > > years to undo the damage the pot smoking hippies started. If we are > > unable to change our ways, this great country will continue to become > more > > divided until it turns on itself or is over thrown by someone else. > > > > The liberals continue to rewrite history to meet their expectations, > > accuse the conservatives of the very things that they (the liberals) are > > actually guilty of doing...... > > > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! ... said things that a liberal > > loving town that is over run by illegals, liberal Californians and > people > > enthralled by the liberal movement do not want to hear and will > reject. > > I > > will now be called all kinds of names, made fun of; ridiculed, and > > attacked for everything they can dream up or reword. OR this will be > > quietly > > ignored. > > > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are not a part of the craziness > > that has taken over our great country. > > > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like stepping back in time. > Though, > > the liberal movement is knocking on the door here too. > > > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I did not mention any names other > > than B.O. and did not make any personal attacks on any of the liberals > on > > this board. After I was attacked when I first came to the board, > > I have quietly read this board for years and will likely go back into > > obscurity again. > > > > May God bless you in all that you do. > > Ex-Oregonian > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > > instant savings! > > ( > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > ) > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu May 14 17:15:42 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 17:15:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <1015C9A1A4814E6BA24C4196D894003F@EDavie> References: <1015C9A1A4814E6BA24C4196D894003F@EDavie> Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905141715s297ca79do6379e31dad282e65@mail.gmail.com> Three Rights make a Left? :) Barb On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > The right side of what? > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamsm at aol.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by > the liberals > > > Not grumpy.. am just on the RIGHT side! > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 3:43:43 P.M. > Eastern Daylight Time, > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > I don't know who you are - but you are assuming > that you know my beliefs - > when all I was trying to say is that you seemed > a bit uh, grumpy.... > Barb > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, > wrote: > > > Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side > every day! > > Obviously, I have a different opinion as to > where the world and United > > States is headed than you. > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. > Eastern Daylight Time, > > smithsmith at gmail.com writes: > > > > Wow. > > Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed > today. > > > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > AND my half cent worth... > > > > > > > > > > > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great > United States of America. > > > We need to role the clock back and get > principles and morality back in > > the > > > people and country. > > > > > > The current financial crises on wall > street, in big business, and even > > > with the lowly home owner that > bought/borrowed more than they can > repay > > > reflect this lack of moral principles. It > is all related! > > > > > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue > to attempt to change our > > great > > > country to the worse. > > > The United States of America was founded > on Christian values and > > > principles. It surely was not founded on > 'anything goes', a 'me me' > > or a > > > 'I can do > > > whatever I want so long as it doesn't > bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets > > make > > > it mandatory that everyone has equal > wealth! Got news for you - Star > > Trek > > > is a fictional story. > > > > > > Why should the tax payers bail out > companies that ripped everyone off > > while > > > getting rich. They should go bankrupt > and the immoral leaders of > those > > > companies properly fined and punished. > The taxpayer should not be > > paying > > > for all the illegal aliens (definition for > those liberals that will > want > > to > > > twist my meaning: those that are staying in > this country illegally or > > that > > > entered the country illegally) that > purchased homes that they cannot > > > afford. > > > All the homeowners that > purchased/refinanced homes with > unreasonable > > > mortgages should pay or lose their > possessions. Ah, but the "great > > one" > > > (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from > Wall Street, Freddie, and > > Mac > > > to DC > > > with him. The 'savior' has let the > liberal House and Senate do as > they > > > please and they are busy enacting laws > that will destroy this great > > > country. > > > "He" was behind the very reasons that the > housing industry imploded. > > How > > > sorrowful this country will be. [A small > prediction... the economy > > will > > > continue to improve until just before the > next election; then "he" > will > > > come > > > out with his lies and the economy will > collapse again. Ya'all just > wait > > > until all the new taxes come your way can > you. LOL. Will be surprised > > if > > > they > > > don't tax your gas from eating too many > Mexican beans.] > > > > > > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the > states that prohibit acts > and > > > conduct that the homosexual community > participate in. These laws are > > > often > > > ignored today, though most states still > have them on the books. > These > > > laws > > > are like many that are for the most part > unenforceable when the > > morality > > > of > > > the people involved has degraded and > refuse to report or prosecute > > those > > > that break the laws. > > > > > > It is obvious that you cannot legislate > morality. Thus, we need to > > teach > > > and bring morality back into our society- > that starts in the home, > > Church > > > and schools. Many of our churches are no > longer teaching God's word, > > but > > > teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I > want to hear' and 'make me > > feel > > > good all over' or teach that 'you' are your > own God. Many churches > > today > > > may > > > claim Christianity, but in fact are > anything but. Oh, but wait, our > > > schools are controlled by the liberal > hippie utopian loving part of > our > > > society. It has taken years for them to > teach and spread their > > utopian > > > agenda. > > > Today, many probably do not even realize > their beliefs most likely > > > originated with the 'free love', immoral, > utopian seekers. It will > > > likely take > > > years to undo the damage the pot smoking > hippies started. If we > are > > > unable to change our ways, this great > country will continue to become > > more > > > divided until it turns on itself or is > over thrown by someone else. > > > > > > The liberals continue to rewrite history > to meet their expectations, > > > accuse the conservatives of the very > things that they (the liberals) > are > > > actually guilty of doing...... > > > > > > Oh what have I done! Shut up already! > ... said things that a > liberal > > > loving town that is over run by illegals, > liberal Californians and > > people > > > enthralled by the liberal movement do not > want to hear and will > > reject. > > > I > > > will now be called all kinds of names, > made fun of; ridiculed, and > > > attacked for everything they can dream up or > reword. OR this will be > > > quietly > > > ignored. > > > > > > Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are > not a part of the > craziness > > > that has taken over our great country. > > > > > > Sure am glad I moved to where it was like > stepping back in time. > > Though, > > > the liberal movement is knocking on the > door here too. > > > > > > Please avoid any name calling. Above I > did not mention any names > other > > > than B.O. and did not make any personal > attacks on any of the > liberals > > on > > > this board. After I was attacked when I > first came to the board, > > > I have quietly read this board for years > and will likely go back into > > > obscurity again. > > > > > > May God bless you in all that you do. > > > Ex-Oregonian > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great > deals starting at $299 after > > > instant savings! > > > ( > > > > > > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > > ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals > starting at $299 after > > instant savings! > > ( > > > > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > > ) > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals > starting at $299 after > instant savings! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi > ) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com Thu May 14 19:06:58 2009 From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:06:58 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Switch to Digital TV In-Reply-To: <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This reminds me. I see this digital thing is coming soon. I have a little TV at the coffee trailer that I watch every morning so I can get the news while I start the coffee brewing, mixing up the biscuits and making the gravy. I really enjoy it because it is generally the only quite time I have to myself to have my coffee with before I turn on the OPEN sign. Now this is a little under the counter TV w/DVD player in it and I know that it is all digital and I have no problem with it now but the antenna is (without a doubt) 15 years old. So does this mean that I am not going to have reception soon? Yes, as soon as we get the Piano Bar Opened we are going to have all cable but that has been delayed by about 2 to 3 weeks now so does the switch mean I need a new antenna and a converter box or does my TV simply do it all? > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:53:52 -0700 > From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > > Being somewhat familiar with fiber-optic service (FIOS) vs. cable modem vs. digital subscriber line (DSL), I'm going to wait awhile before I switch from Clear service to FIOS in the home. Why? Thought you'd never ask. :-) > > Fiber optic is the future. No doubt about it. I can easily foresee in my lifetime (I hit 50 this year!) where fiber optic transmission will exceed plain old copper wire transmission. There are multiple reasons on the advantage of transmitting via fiber vs. copper: bandwidth, distance (copper requires frequent refreshing of the signal), lower maintenance costs, and the biggest one: SPEED. With fiber, you're transmitting light pulses vs. electrical impulses over copper, and we're talking gigabits of information transmission vs. megabits. > > With all the advantages of fiber vs. copper, increased speed being a key selling point for consumers, why aren't all companies going all-out with fiber optic service? The answer? Cost. Fiber optic transmission equipment and fiber optic cables are by themselves very expensive. Even if the fiber optic cable network was well-established, the transmission (company office) and reception (customer home and/or office) costs are pretty high. And remember, every time a company would want to deliver another 10 gigabit faster speed capability, it would require new equipment at both the transmission and reception ends. > > For me, today, I'm okay with my current upload and download speeds. I just don't need FIOS right now, especially since I just switched to Clear two months ago and am very, very pleased with the capability of continuous internet service just about anywhere in FG, not to mention service to/from Portland on the MAX (except in the tunnel). > > Allen Warren > > > ________________________________ > From: Bob Browning > To: Grovenet > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20:57 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! > > I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! > > bob > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B > Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for $5.3 billion > * Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer > * On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT > NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in stock. > The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas and will triple in size with the deal. > The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. > The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. > The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as some assets in border areas of California. > Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. > Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. > Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company and letting them assume debt. > Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. > "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States." > Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 percent. > Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King said. > The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. > Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of California are not affected by the deal. > Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. > Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu May 14 19:40:02 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 19:40:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <065901c9d4d5$5ede2870$1c9a7950$@com> Message-ID: Interesting. How could Tom Paine write a book about Deists that was accurate but so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." Sounds like an opinion piece. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jeff Howden > Sent> From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu May 14 19:50:47 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 19:50:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals References: Message-ID: <51799B2401474B8BB105059AD6CAC012@gerianehzkfhvy> I believe the guy who was nicknamed the Father of the American Revolution was Sam Adams. And yes, during his time Thomas Paine was known as the "voice of the common man," I think ... Anyone know? Also, a "rational radical," or something like that. Not all his contemporaries rejected/despised him, no; that's just a generality. Thomas Jefferson was one of his friends. Anyway, there are many examples in history of people whose thought and/or discoveries were before their time: take Galileo,for instance. Or Jesus Christ. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals > Interesting. > How could Tom Paine write a book about Deists that was accurate but so > outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation > that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." > Sounds like an opinion piece. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu May 14 19:53:28 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 19:53:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals Message-ID: <4485260BE5BF41E8A4C937AAC4C6B328@gerianehzkfhvy> Ha! Accidentally deleted part of the second sentence; meant to say yes, during his life he was considered radical. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geri" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals I believe the guy who was nicknamed the Father of the American Revolution was Sam Adams. And yes, during his time Thomas Paine was known as the "voice of the common man," I think ... Anyone know? Also, a "rational radical," or something like that. Not all his contemporaries rejected/despised him, no; that's just a generality. Thomas Jefferson was one of his friends. Anyway, there are many examples in history of people whose thought and/or discoveries were before their time: take Galileo,for instance. Or Jesus Christ. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven" To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals > Interesting. > How could Tom Paine write a book about Deists that was accurate but so > outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation > that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." > Sounds like an opinion piece. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Thu May 14 20:44:30 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:44:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Switch to Digital TV In-Reply-To: References: <4A0AF369.30701@jurislex.com> <134740.70426.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43D24E8A-506C-4705-AEE5-9096EF935413@verizon.net> If either the TV or the DVD player has a digital tuner in it then you do not need a converter box. I met a guy yesterday who has hooked up his converter box and he says he is already getting lots of digital channels (here in the middle of FG). So if you are already getting channel 2 and 2.2 and 2.4 etc or 10 and 10.1 and 10.4 then you are good to go. He did not need a new antenna just the converter box. We hooked up our converter box and got basically nothing. (not far from the middle of FG) That tells us we need a different antenna. Our antenna was in the attic when we bought the house more than 20 years ago so I have no idea how old it really is. If you are hooking up the TV to cable, they say that you don't have to do anything, your cable box already does it for you. Katie PS If you need a converter box but don't think its worth it for just the time you are waiting for the Piano Bar, have you considered radio for your morning news? The commercials are a lot less irritating on OPB and you don't have to focus your eyes on a little screen. Just a thought. On May 14, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Glenn Berkheimer wrote: > > This reminds me. I see this digital thing is coming soon. I have > a little TV at the coffee trailer that I watch every morning so I > can get the news while I start the coffee brewing, mixing up the > biscuits and making the gravy. I really enjoy it because it is > generally the only quite time I have to myself to have my coffee > with before I turn on the OPEN sign. > Now this is a little under the counter TV w/DVD player in it and I > know that it is all digital and I have no problem with it now but > the antenna is (without a doubt) 15 years old. So does this mean > that I am not going to have reception soon? Yes, as soon as we get > the Piano Bar Opened we are going to have all cable but that has > been delayed by about 2 to 3 weeks now so does the switch mean I > need a new antenna and a converter box or does my TV simply do it all? > > >> Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:53:52 -0700 >> From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! >> >> Being somewhat familiar with fiber-optic service (FIOS) vs. cable >> modem vs. digital subscriber line (DSL), I'm going to wait awhile >> before I switch from Clear service to FIOS in the home. Why? >> Thought you'd never ask. :-) >> >> Fiber optic is the future. No doubt about it. I can easily >> foresee in my lifetime (I hit 50 this year!) where fiber optic >> transmission will exceed plain old copper wire transmission. >> There are multiple reasons on the advantage of transmitting via >> fiber vs. copper: bandwidth, distance (copper requires frequent >> refreshing of the signal), lower maintenance costs, and the >> biggest one: SPEED. With fiber, you're transmitting light pulses >> vs. electrical impulses over copper, and we're talking gigabits of >> information transmission vs. megabits. >> >> With all the advantages of fiber vs. copper, increased speed being >> a key selling point for consumers, why aren't all companies going >> all-out with fiber optic service? The answer? Cost. Fiber optic >> transmission equipment and fiber optic cables are by themselves >> very expensive. Even if the fiber optic cable network was well- >> established, the transmission (company office) and reception >> (customer home and/or office) costs are pretty high. And >> remember, every time a company would want to deliver another 10 >> gigabit faster speed capability, it would require new equipment at >> both the transmission and reception ends. >> >> For me, today, I'm okay with my current upload and download >> speeds. I just don't need FIOS right now, especially since I just >> switched to Clear two months ago and am very, very pleased with >> the capability of continuous internet service just about anywhere >> in FG, not to mention service to/from Portland on the MAX (except >> in the tunnel). >> >> Allen Warren >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Bob Browning >> To: Grovenet >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20:57 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Here we go again ! ! ! ! >> >> I wish I knew if this was good or bad, but I was just about to >> make the jump to Verizon Fios, but now I am not sure ! ! ! >> >> bob >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> Frontier to buy rural Verizon lines for $5.3B >> Verizon to sell rural phone lines in 14 states to Frontier for >> $5.3 billion >> * Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer >> * On Wednesday May 13, 2009, 11:08 am EDT >> NEW YORK (AP) -- Verizon Communications Inc. said Wednesday it >> reached a deal to sell scattered phone service areas outside its >> main Northeastern and Californian territories for $5.3 billion in >> stock. >> The buyer is Frontier Communications Corp., based in Stamford, >> Conn. The company focuses on serving small towns and rural areas >> and will triple in size with the deal. >> The deal continues Verizon's strategy of focusing on its core >> areas, where it is upgrading its phone lines to fiber optics, >> enabling it offer TV service and faster Internet access. It sold >> off its phone lines in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont for $2.3 >> billion last year to Fairpoint Communications Inc. >> The agreement would give Frontier 4.8 million phone lines to >> residential and small business customers and 1 million broadband >> connections. Frontier currently has 2.3 million customers. >> The sale includes all of Verizon's phone lines in Arizona, Idaho, >> Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, >> South Carolina, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin as well as >> some assets in border areas of California. >> Verizon shareholders will receive one share of Frontier stock for >> approximately every 4.2 shares of Verizon stock, depending on the >> price of Frontier shares at closing, which is expected within a year. >> Frontier shares were up 39 cents, or 5.2 percent, at $7.96 in >> premarket trading Wednesday. Verizon shares gained 9 cents to $30.49. >> Verizon is also extracting $3.3 billion from the units before >> selling them off, by having them pay cash to the parent company >> and letting them assume debt. >> Frontier will issue so much stock to Verizon shareholders that >> they will end up owning 68 percent of the company. >> "This is a truly transformational transaction for Frontier," >> Maggie Wilderotter, Frontier's chief executive, said in a >> statement. "With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we >> will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video >> services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United >> States." >> Frontier also said it is cutting its annual dividend to 75 cents >> from $1, freeing cash to invest in the acquired areas, including >> for broadband buildouts. The cut takes its dividend yield to 9.9 >> percent. >> Analyst Christopher King at Stifel Nicolaus noted that buyers of >> Verizon phone lines have fared badly in the past -- Fairpoint is >> struggling with its debt load, and the buyer of Verizon's Hawaiian >> business is in bankruptcy. But Frontier will actually reduce its >> debt load relative to its earnings through the transaction, King >> said. >> The roughly 11,000 workers that support the local landlines will >> move to Frontier with union contracts intact, Verizon said. >> Verizon lines in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, >> Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, >> Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia and most of >> California are not affected by the deal. >> Copyright ? 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The >> information contained in the AP News report may not be published, >> broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written >> authority of The Associated Press. >> Copyright ? 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage? > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From a_tom_51 at juno.com Thu May 14 22:03:41 2009 From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 05:03:41 GMT Subject: [Grovenet] Concrete recommendation Message-ID: <20090514.220341.9371.1@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Mark Bennet did a small concrete job for us and did very well. He's also my neighbor...well, all of you are in a sense my neighbors...Mark live across the street and is a good person from what I have seen in the last 13 or so years. Tom Alexanders ---------- Original Message ---------- Return-Path: Received: from mx09.dca.untd.com (mx09.dca.untd.com [10.171.44.39]) by maildeliver05.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABFA3ETMAYL4ZG2 for (sender ); Thu, 14 May 2009 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vmail.rdrop.com (vmail.rdrop.com [199.26.172.53]) by mx09.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABFA3ETMAC2MPTJ for (sender ); Thu, 14 May 2009 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by vmail.rdrop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3A567FFE; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from barracuda2.peak.org (barracuda2.peak.org [69.59.192.45]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id n4ELoS9U008225 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allnutt at verizon.net) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1242337826-626400660000-jkSq60 X-Barracuda-URL: http://barracuda.peak.org:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barracuda2.peak.org (Spam & Virus Firewall) with ESMTP id 87641207ABB9 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 14:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net (vms173017pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.17]) by barracuda2.peak.org with ESMTP id 2KHYLhCjTDgvDRqK for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 14:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: allnutt at verizon.net Received-SPF: pass (barracuda2.peak.org: domain of allnutt at verizon.net designates 206.46.173.17 as permitted sender) receiver=barracuda2.peak.org; client_ip=206.46.173.17; envelope-from=allnutt at verizon.net; Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([71.111.166.185]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KJN00HTFLYOO04O at vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> for grovenet at rdrop.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 16:49:37 -0500 (CDT) MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Message-id: <2F1D5E0B-A2BE-4048-B071-0964EFF59EB8 at verizon.net> To: Forest Grove local interests list From: Katie Allnutt X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Concrete recommendation Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:49:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Barracuda-Connect: vms173017pub.verizon.net[206.46.173.17] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1242337827 X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by Peak Internet Spam Firewall at peak.org X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=4.0 KILL_LEVEL=7.0 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.1.25796 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Subject: [Grovenet] Concrete recommendation X-BeenThere: grovenet at rdrop.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9rc1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Errors-To: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com X-ContentStamp: 2:2:3251195511 X-MAIL-INFO:3251e05951a059ad29d9592974e9b0559d64d9cdd49dcd9d7594fd642d4144648519b9514051c9e0c005295159 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 199.26.172.53|vmail.rdrop.com|vmail.rdrop.com|grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com X-UNTD-UBE:-1 A friend is looking for some concrete work for installing a patio. Any body have recommendations? Katie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ Click for information on the top Adult Education programs. Advance your career. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTKLnkEnxDKhRyA97agB0dv4rTBHjJN44qZRQKvjCh9HbvQxCXzNMM/ From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 14 22:13:42 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:13:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E3ED506-EFF5-41EA-91B7-FF058BAF96EE@verizon.net> Hi, nice of you to come back to Grovenet. I have a few observations as well. On May 14, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > > AND my half cent worth... > > CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great United States of > America. We need to role the clock back and get principles and > morality back in the > people and country. I agree whole heartedly. The last eight years of corruption has been terrible. Torture, bombing, invasion, graft, etc. > > The current financial crises on wall street, in big business, and > even with the lowly home owner that bought/borrowed more than they > can repay reflect this lack of moral principles. It is all related! Yes, greed and deception in the financial industry had created real problems for the country. The misrepresentation and fraud by both sides of many transactions can be traced to individual action by people who didn't have a good moral compass. You would expect professional money lenders and professional investors to recognize the financial capacity of the prospective borrowers, and in reality they did. That is why so much of the "toxic loans" were bundled and passed on. They didn't want to get caught holding the bag. > > As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue to attempt to change > our great country to the worse. The United States of America was > founded on Christian values and principles. It surely was not > founded on 'anything goes', a 'me me' or a 'I can do whatever I > want so long as it doesn't bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets make it > mandatory that everyone has equal wealth! Got news for you - Star > Trek is a fictional story. The Old Testament does push for Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Palestine, and it does command Israelites to keep apart from the earlier inhabitants. That doesn't make killing native populations and extorting their property a "Christian" value. The revolution that produced the United States came in part because American colonists wanted to push through the Cumberland Gap and settle on land reserved to the native population by the English crown. The "Manifest Destiny" that carried American settlers from sea to shining sea over the lives and land of the natives was crouched in "Christian virtue", but I really doubt that Jesus would have recognized it. Since the Old Testament is a Hebrew document, and it justified our national growth, we should call this a country founded on Hebrew values. > ... > Years ago, many laws were enacted by the states that prohibit acts > and conduct that the homosexual community participate in. I happen to think homosexuality is counter productive to a society, so I don't support its practice. That said, I was living during the time that it was illegal in some states for a man and woman to marry. If they were in love and wanted to live together, they were obligated to live in sin because of those state laws. I hope you don't support the re-establishment of those laws. BTW, It didn't apply to all men and all women, just those who were deemed to belong to "different races". I guess it was another example of the Hebrew virtues this country as founded upon. > ... > It is obvious that you cannot legislate morality. Thus, we need > to teach and bring morality back into our society- that starts in > the home, Church and schools. ... Many churches today may claim > Christianity, but in fact are anything but. Jesus did a good job of describing his values in the Gospels. Unfortunately, not too many people seem to have read them. Paul certainly didn't. He completely missed the part that says "41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. " Bye David From waltw at teleport.com Thu May 14 22:20:18 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:20:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10905141715s297ca79do6379e31dad282e65@mail.gmail.com> References: <1015C9A1A4814E6BA24C4196D894003F@EDavie> <7eaadfd10905141715s297ca79do6379e31dad282e65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44921FC7-D725-4521-B8F3-B4FCA623F9CB@teleport.com> > Yes! Let's turn back the clock! Let's turn it back, and back, until > the hands come off! Walt >> The right side of what? >> Ed >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jamsm at aol.com >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by >> the liberals >> >> >> Not grumpy.. am just on the RIGHT side! >> >> >> In a message dated 5/14/2009 3:43:43 P.M. >> Eastern Daylight Time, >> smithsmith at gmail.com writes: >> >> I don't know who you are - but you are assuming >> that you know my beliefs - >> when all I was trying to say is that you seemed >> a bit uh, grumpy.... >> Barb >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM, >> wrote: >> >>> Quite the contrary, I get up on RIGHT side >> every day! >>> Obviously, I have a different opinion as to >> where the world and United >>> States is headed than you. >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 5/14/2009 2:14:54 P.M. >> Eastern Daylight Time, >>> smithsmith at gmail.com writes: >>> >>> Wow. >>> Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed >> today. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, >> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> AND my half cent worth... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CHANGE! Yes we need change in the Great >> United States of America. >>>> We need to role the clock back and get >> principles and morality back in >>> the >>>> people and country. >>>> >>>> The current financial crises on wall >> street, in big business, and even >>>> with the lowly home owner that >> bought/borrowed more than they can >> repay >>>> reflect this lack of moral principles. It >> is all related! >>>> >>>> As is typical, the Utopian seekers continue >> to attempt to change our >>> great >>>> country to the worse. >>>> The United States of America was founded >> on Christian values and >>>> principles. It surely was not founded on >> 'anything goes', a 'me me' >>> or a >>>> 'I can do >>>> whatever I want so long as it doesn't >> bother my neighbor'. Oh, lets >>> make >>>> it mandatory that everyone has equal >> wealth! Got news for you - Star >>> Trek >>>> is a fictional story. >>>> >>>> Why should the tax payers bail out >> companies that ripped everyone off >>> while >>>> getting rich. They should go bankrupt >> and the immoral leaders of >> those >>>> companies properly fined and punished. >> The taxpayer should not be >>> paying >>>> for all the illegal aliens (definition for >> those liberals that will >> want >>> to >>>> twist my meaning: those that are staying in >> this country illegally or >>> that >>>> entered the country illegally) that >> purchased homes that they cannot >>>> afford. >>>> All the homeowners that >> purchased/refinanced homes with >> unreasonable >>>> mortgages should pay or lose their >> possessions. Ah, but the "great >>> one" >>>> (B.O.) has brought all of his friends from >> Wall Street, Freddie, and >>> Mac >>>> to DC >>>> with him. The 'savior' has let the >> liberal House and Senate do as >> they >>>> please and they are busy enacting laws >> that will destroy this great >>>> country. >>>> "He" was behind the very reasons that the >> housing industry imploded. >>> How >>>> sorrowful this country will be. [A small >> prediction... the economy >>> will >>>> continue to improve until just before the >> next election; then "he" >> will >>>> come >>>> out with his lies and the economy will >> collapse again. Ya'all just >> wait >>>> until all the new taxes come your way can >> you. LOL. Will be surprised >>> if >>>> they >>>> don't tax your gas from eating too many >> Mexican beans.] >>>> >>>> Years ago, many laws were enacted by the >> states that prohibit acts >> and >>>> conduct that the homosexual community >> participate in. These laws are >>>> often >>>> ignored today, though most states still >> have them on the books. >> These >>>> laws >>>> are like many that are for the most part >> unenforceable when the >>> morality >>>> of >>>> the people involved has degraded and >> refuse to report or prosecute >>> those >>>> that break the laws. >>>> >>>> It is obvious that you cannot legislate >> morality. Thus, we need to >>> teach >>>> and bring morality back into our society- >> that starts in the home, >>> Church >>>> and schools. Many of our churches are no >> longer teaching God's word, >>> but >>>> teach the liberal view of 'tell me what I >> want to hear' and 'make me >>> feel >>>> good all over' or teach that 'you' are your >> own God. Many churches >>> today >>>> may >>>> claim Christianity, but in fact are >> anything but. Oh, but wait, our >>>> schools are controlled by the liberal >> hippie utopian loving part of >> our >>>> society. It has taken years for them to >> teach and spread their >>> utopian >>>> agenda. >>>> Today, many probably do not even realize >> their beliefs most likely >>>> originated with the 'free love', immoral, >> utopian seekers. It will >>>> likely take >>>> years to undo the damage the pot smoking >> hippies started. If we >> are >>>> unable to change our ways, this great >> country will continue to become >>> more >>>> divided until it turns on itself or is >> over thrown by someone else. >>>> >>>> The liberals continue to rewrite history >> to meet their expectations, >>>> accuse the conservatives of the very >> things that they (the liberals) >> are >>>> actually guilty of doing...... >>>> >>>> Oh what have I done! Shut up already! >> ... said things that a >> liberal >>>> loving town that is over run by illegals, >> liberal Californians and >>> people >>>> enthralled by the liberal movement do not >> want to hear and will >>> reject. >>>> I >>>> will now be called all kinds of names, >> made fun of; ridiculed, and >>>> attacked for everything they can dream up or >> reword. OR this will be >>>> quietly >>>> ignored. >>>> >>>> Yes, I know - there are some in FG that are >> not a part of the >> craziness >>>> that has taken over our great country. >>>> >>>> Sure am glad I moved to where it was like >> stepping back in time. >>> Though, >>>> the liberal movement is knocking on the >> door here too. >>>> >>>> Please avoid any name calling. Above I >> did not mention any names >> other >>>> than B.O. and did not make any personal >> attacks on any of the >> liberals >>> on >>>> this board. After I was attacked when I >> first came to the board, >>>> I have quietly read this board for years >> and will likely go back into >>>> obscurity again. >>>> >>>> May God bless you in all that you do. >>>> Ex-Oregonian >>>> **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great >> deals starting at $299 after >>>> instant savings! >>>> ( >>>> >>> >>> >> >> http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol? >> redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi >>>> ) >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals >> starting at $299 after >>> instant savings! >>> ( >>> >> >> http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol? >> redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi >>> ) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals >> starting at $299 after >> instant savings! >> ( >> http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol? >> redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi >> ) >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu May 14 22:34:46 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:34:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lies ....... lies.... by the liberals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53F3328B-D3AA-4591-891F-BAC59F40184F@teleport.com> Tom Paine had no use for organized religion, especially as exemplified by the narrow and intolerant Jimmy Swaggarts of that day. As a consequence, he was viciously libeled and vilified by those people, even after his death. One such pious lie was that he was a raving alcoholic, another was that he made a dramatic deathbed conversion to "Christianity." Oddly enough, the latter is used against deceased and prominent atheists and agnostics even today. Walt On May 14, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Steven wrote: > Interesting. > How could Tom Paine write a book about Deists that was accurate but so > outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by > the nation > that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." > Sounds like an opinion piece. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com]On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Fri May 15 09:10:51 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:10:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] layoffs announced at FG School District Message-ID: <001401c9d577$b80ffd90$9702a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> http://www.fgnewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=124235926958122500 I wasn't at the meeting but our reporter, Christian, was and filed this report. Not unexpected, but no less unpleasant. John Schrag From phoenixacm at aol.com Fri May 15 12:04:59 2009 From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:04:59 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Change email? Message-ID: <8CBA3A72D6C7ADD-678-C09@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Does anybody know how to change my email address on Grovenet? Also, everybody is invited to the Relay for Life Paint the Town Purple parade tomorrow at 11 am in downtown Forest Grove. My Grovenet email on this topic did not get transmitted but I don't know why. Jane B-P Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri May 15 12:10:58 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 12:10:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Change email? References: <8CBA3A72D6C7ADD-678-C09@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <87AABCFAB694451DB7D53C3C20BBFE05@gerianehzkfhvy> Jane, you can go here: http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet both to unsubscribe with your old address and to put in your new address. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" To: Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Change email? > Does anybody know how to change my email address on Grovenet? > > Also, everybody is invited to the Relay for Life Paint the Town Purple > parade tomorrow at 11 am in downtown Forest Grove. My Grovenet email > on this topic did not get transmitted but I don't know why. > > Jane B-P > > > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri May 15 15:50:05 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] $5 for a bag o' books library tomorrow! Message-ID: <100611.86935.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, The Forest Grove Library has one more day of the book sale. Tomorrow, Saturday, 5/16/09 from 10 AM - 3 PM. Bring your own paper bag and fill it with books for just $5 a bag! Stay to help clean up at 3 PM tand get a bag full of books for FREE! Just mention this email. The Friends of the FG Library spends its money for the children's programs, furniture, food for events, cultural programs and many other items not covered in the budget. thanks for your support! Alana From stevedj at teleport.com Sun May 17 13:58:17 2009 From: stevedj at teleport.com (Steve Jerrett) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Change email? References: <8CBA3A72D6C7ADD-678-C09@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> <87AABCFAB694451DB7D53C3C20BBFE05@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with Kaiser Permanente medical insurance? i am curioius as to your experiences. We are nearing the time when we will need to pay our insurance premiums, and the savings with Kaiser is very attractive at this point. Thanks, Steve From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Sun May 17 15:34:56 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:34:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture Message-ID: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I need some relief from lower back pain.. my doctor say that is probably the only thing left for me. Any ideas anyone? From tosca at prodigy.net Sun May 17 15:59:31 2009 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie Combs) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture In-Reply-To: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <545525.43514.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a lady on GNet, Jane Burch-Pesses,?who does?acupuncture.?? I understand that she sometimes gives demonstrations at the Forest Gtove?Farmers' Market. --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: From: Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture To: GroveNet at rdrop.com Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 3:34 PM I need some relief from lower back pain.. my doctor say that is probably the only thing left for me. Any ideas anyone? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun May 17 16:51:02 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture In-Reply-To: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3AB548CA-1554-4B69-A9AF-EF1F3EF539F2@teleport.com> Acupuncture can't hurt at any rate, but have you tried a competent chiropractor? Both the senior Dr. Pace and his son (their office is in the Maple Street Clinic) gave me great relief from lower back pain that had troubled me for years. Even suggested i get into a mild exercise program at the gym, which helped even more (and you won't stand out, because I see several silver heads there). I only saw the Paces two or three times, then they had me in good enough shape to go ahead. Right now I've skipped gym for weeks, but that is because I'm too busy with the Community Garden-- and that's heavy work, but it hasn't left me with any back pain! So go ahead and try acupuncture, but try Pace and son also. They are both very knowledgeable, and will give you straight answers and whatever relief is possible for your condition. Walt > I need some relief from lower back pain.. > my doctor say that is probably the only thing left for me. Any ideas > anyone? > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com Sun May 17 17:54:10 2009 From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:54:10 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Change email? In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA3A72D6C7ADD-678-C09@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> <87AABCFAB694451DB7D53C3C20BBFE05@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: I had it for a while, I was never so angry at someone in my life and I quit them over their treatment for me and by that I mean both medical treatment and PR treatment. It is a long story and I am sure many people have had good response from them but their is little I can say (except for price) that I can tell you that was good. Mabe the fact that I spent 10 years in the Navy as a surgical scrub tech, medical field surgical support and military independent duty medical provider, did not help because I expected a lot more from them than the average Joe would have. ============================================================= > From: stevedj at teleport.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:58:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Change email? > > Does anyone have any experience with Kaiser Permanente medical insurance? i > am curioius as to your experiences. > > We are nearing the time when we will need to pay our insurance premiums, and > the savings with Kaiser is very attractive at this point. > > Thanks, > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From phoenixacm at aol.com Mon May 18 11:24:21 2009 From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:24:21 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture In-Reply-To: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <16194-4A109110-3773@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <8CBA5FCFFBD3A62-B80-1527@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> Yes, acupuncture is famous for the successful treatment of pain in general and low back pain in particular. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about it. Leave a message on my answering machine giving me a number and a good time to call you. Jane B-P Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net -----Original Message----- From: Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss To: GroveNet at rdrop.com Sent: Sun, 17 May 2009 3:34 pm Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture I need some relief from lower back pain.. my doctor say that is probably the only thing left for me. Any ideas anyone? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From phoenixacm at aol.com Mon May 18 11:29:30 2009 From: phoenixacm at aol.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:29:30 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture In-Reply-To: <545525.43514.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <545525.43514.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CBA5FDB7DFDED1-B80-157C@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> Thanks for the mention, Bonnie! And I will be doing acupuncture demonstrations in return for donations (of any amount) to Relay for Life this Saturday, from 1 pm to 4 pm at the Cottage Connection, 2318 Main St., Forest Grove. It's about three or four blocks north of my office on Main St. There will also be a massage therapist there, food and tea samples, and a free art project for kids. It's our Spring Pampering day and one of our team's Relay fundraisers. Jane B-P Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Combs To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 17 May 2009 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [Grovenet] acupuncture There is a lady on GNet, Jane Burch-Pesses,?who does?acupuncture.?? I understand that she sometimes gives demonstrations at the Forest Gtove?Farmers' Market. --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: From: Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss Subject: [Grovenet] acupuncture To: GroveNet at rdrop.com Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 3:34 PM I need some relief from lower back pain.. my doctor say that is probably the only thing left for me. Any ideas anyone? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/gro venet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon May 18 11:41:39 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) Message-ID: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> As many of you are no doubt aware, FGHS each year has a "Viking House" project where their Advanced Construction students (with support from other classes and the community) build a house from scratch.? Lumbermen's and other local businesses do an excellent job of supporting the district with materials, and local real estate agent Margaret Boehmer has volunteered her service in trying to sell 1208 35th Avenue. Every year (until now) the Viking House has sold quickly; these are difficult times however and even with a price reduction there has been no sale.? I spoke with Margaret some time ago and told her that if she agreed, I would post to Grovenet with a call to help sell last year's house, as well as this one's. I visited last year's house and was very impressed with the craftsmanship and attention to detail the students and others put into the house.? It's amazing!? I'm wondering if there is a way that Grovenetters can get together and help facilitate a sale. This is a unique situation and I think that it may be possible to put together some sort of "consortium" to buy the house as a group, as a way of getting money into the beleagured FGSD.? I have no experience with real estate, but would be happy to facilitate meetings (online) or create a Google Group etc. for this endeavour.? I thought I'd start out here and see what kind of response I would get. This year's house is almost done!? Can we find a way to do this? Here are some links from Viking House to look at as well as contact information: http://fghsvikinghouse.com/buy.aspx (contact info there) http://fghsvikinghouse.com/vh2008.aspx http://fghsvikinghouse.com/vh2009.aspx Regards, Jeff Cooper From khourym at verizon.net Mon May 18 12:03:16 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:03:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36794FDD-2A0E-4B97-B703-9E6D2A6E3A0D@verizon.net> We are very fortunate in FG to have this program. Sales of the Viking Houses basically fund the woodshop program, which many other schools are cutting. If these houses don't get sold we are in danger of losing this valuable program. While it might be nice if everyone could go to college -- and schools have definitely become focused that direction -- it is unrealistic to think that college is for everyone. These vocational programs are critical -- not only to those considering a career in these areas. For those who do go on to higher ed, they provide a better-rounded education and useful life skills. When we first bought our house here in FG, I immediately signed my husband up for the woodshop class that is housed in the FGHS shop. 14 years later he is still enjoying it and we have a house full of handcrafted heirloom furniture. This class is open to the public and runs from 6:30 - 9:30 pm on Monday evenings through the school year. Works out to less than $15 per evening. Let's spread the word and get these homes sold! --Martha K. On May 18, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > As many of you are no doubt aware, FGHS each year has a "Viking > House" project where their Advanced Construction students (with > support from other classes and the community) build a house from > scratch. Lumbermen's and other local businesses do an excellent job > of supporting the district with materials, and local real estate > agent Margaret Boehmer has volunteered her service in trying to sell > 1208 35th Avenue. > > Every year (until now) the Viking House has sold quickly; these are > difficult times however and even with a price reduction there has > been no sale. I spoke with Margaret some time ago and told her that > if she agreed, I would post to Grovenet with a call to help sell > last year's house, as well as this one's. > > I visited last year's house and was very impressed with the > craftsmanship and attention to detail the students and others put > into the house. It's amazing! I'm wondering if there is a way that > Grovenetters can get together and help facilitate a sale. > > This is a unique situation and I think that it may be possible to > put together some sort of "consortium" to buy the house as a group, > as a way of getting money into the beleagured FGSD. I have no > experience with real estate, but would be happy to facilitate > meetings (online) or create a Google Group etc. for this endeavour. > I thought I'd start out here and see what kind of response I would > get. > > This year's house is almost done! Can we find a way to do this? > > Here are some links from Viking House to look at as well as contact > information: > > http://fghsvikinghouse.com/buy.aspx (contact info there) > http://fghsvikinghouse.com/vh2008.aspx > http://fghsvikinghouse.com/vh2009.aspx > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Mon May 18 13:46:32 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:46:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jeff -- Got this message from John. You might pass it along to the right folks. I'd be willing to contribute toward the $69 if someone can get the info to the NT in a timely fashion. --MK Begin forwarded message: > From: "John Schrag" > Date: May 18, 2009 1:18:49 PM PDT > To: "'Martha Khoury'" > Subject: Viking House > > Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It?s odd, because we just were > wondering why the Viking House isn?t on the citywide home tour on > May 31. We?re putting together a guide for local agents to show off > about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the > Viking House isn?t on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, > which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). > > If you know anyone who?s involved, have them call me or Janet > Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the > listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it?s > important that the house get sold. > > > > > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 ------------ From khourym at verizon.net Mon May 18 13:53:27 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:53:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> Turns out it's not the money that is at issue -- it's the manpower. Anyone available? This year's house may not be painted and ready to tour by then, but last year's house is. The realtor already has 6 houses listed and is not able to "man" any additional houses. If someone has time/interest to staff the Viking house(s) during the tour, please contact Maggie Boehmer at (503) 849-6143. Tell her Tanya said to call. On May 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > Jeff -- Got this message from John. You might pass it along to the > right folks. I'd be willing to contribute toward the $69 if someone > can get the info to the NT in a timely fashion. --MK > > Begin forwarded message: >> From: "John Schrag" >> Date: May 18, 2009 1:18:49 PM PDT >> To: "'Martha Khoury'" >> Subject: Viking House >> >> Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It?s odd, because we just were >> wondering why the Viking House isn?t on the citywide home tour on >> May 31. We?re putting together a guide for local agents to show off >> about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the >> Viking House isn?t on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, >> which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). >> >> If you know anyone who?s involved, have them call me or Janet >> Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the >> listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it?s >> important that the house get sold. >> >> >> >> >> >> John Schrag >> Editor & Publisher >> News-Times >> >> 503-357-3181 > > ------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Mon May 18 14:02:02 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:02:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Viking House In-Reply-To: <003201c9d7f5$df4b8e80$6415a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> References: <003201c9d7f5$df4b8e80$6415a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: <1EA84F21-2DDE-4462-B2DF-69242469EB26@verizon.net> Another idea.... the Viking House team usually has their own open house, perhaps that could be advertised in the Home Tour Guide? --MK On May 18, 2009, at 1:18 PM, John Schrag wrote: > Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It?s odd, because we just were > wondering why the Viking House isn?t on the citywide home tour on > May 31. We?re putting together a guide for local agents to show off > about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the > Viking House isn?t on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, > which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). > > If you know anyone who?s involved, have them call me or Janet > Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the > listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it?s > important that the house get sold. > > > > > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 > From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Mon May 18 14:11:40 2009 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (John Schrag) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:11:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005b01c9d7fd$3cfb2700$6415a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> We've offered to waive the fee, but now we're fighting the clock. The map is being produced as we speak, so we need to know by the end of today whether to list it. John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times 503-357-3181 -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 1:53 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) Turns out it's not the money that is at issue -- it's the manpower. Anyone available? This year's house may not be painted and ready to tour by then, but last year's house is. The realtor already has 6 houses listed and is not able to "man" any additional houses. If someone has time/interest to staff the Viking house(s) during the tour, please contact Maggie Boehmer at (503) 849-6143. Tell her Tanya said to call. On May 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > Jeff -- Got this message from John. You might pass it along to the > right folks. I'd be willing to contribute toward the $69 if someone > can get the info to the NT in a timely fashion. --MK > > Begin forwarded message: >> From: "John Schrag" >> Date: May 18, 2009 1:18:49 PM PDT >> To: "'Martha Khoury'" >> Subject: Viking House >> >> Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It's odd, because we just were >> wondering why the Viking House isn't on the citywide home tour on >> May 31. We're putting together a guide for local agents to show off >> about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the >> Viking House isn't on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, >> which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). >> >> If you know anyone who's involved, have them call me or Janet >> Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the >> listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it's >> important that the house get sold. >> >> >> >> >> >> John Schrag >> Editor & Publisher >> News-Times >> >> 503-357-3181 > > ------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Mon May 18 14:14:32 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:14:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> Message-ID: <82F2D0CF-4870-4383-97E7-6E7CF4CC6173@verizon.net> I left a message on Maggie's machine that I would be more than willing to sit in the house (for many hours if necessary). It is a gorgeous house and well worth the amazing asking price these days. I don't have any kids who went beyond woodworking I (not that I didn't want them to do so) and our community is so much better off having this program at the school. Does anybody remember on the tours of the Pittock mansion where Mr Pittock chose who to work on the construction and he chose local young crafts people to do the detail work. He knew he wanted a house that would last a long time and if it needed repairs he figured that having the original workers around would only be a bonus for him. It is the same concept. If you buy a Viking house, a lot of the people who actually worked on the house will likely be around in the future. Katie On May 18, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > Turns out it's not the money that is at issue -- it's the manpower. > Anyone available? > > This year's house may not be painted and ready to tour by then, but > last year's house is. > > The realtor already has 6 houses listed and is not able to "man" any > additional houses. If someone has time/interest to staff the Viking > house(s) during the tour, please contact Maggie Boehmer at (503) > 849-6143. Tell her Tanya said to call. > > > > > On May 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > >> Jeff -- Got this message from John. You might pass it along to the >> right folks. I'd be willing to contribute toward the $69 if someone >> can get the info to the NT in a timely fashion. --MK >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: "John Schrag" >>> Date: May 18, 2009 1:18:49 PM PDT >>> To: "'Martha Khoury'" >>> Subject: Viking House >>> >>> Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It?s odd, because we just were >>> wondering why the Viking House isn?t on the citywide home tour on >>> May 31. We?re putting together a guide for local agents to show off >>> about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the >>> Viking House isn?t on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, >>> which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). >>> >>> If you know anyone who?s involved, have them call me or Janet >>> Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the >>> listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it?s >>> important that the house get sold. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> John Schrag >>> Editor & Publisher >>> News-Times >>> >>> 503-357-3181 >> >> ------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Mon May 18 14:14:47 2009 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:14:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <005b01c9d7fd$3cfb2700$6415a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> References: <904243.91874.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <5FA9B7AA-D65D-435D-870C-0127F5D24712@verizon.net> <005b01c9d7fd$3cfb2700$6415a8c0@pmg.pamplincom.com> Message-ID: I've done everything I can to pass your info on to the right folks. Hopefully they'll get back to you. Thanks. --MK On May 18, 2009, at 2:11 PM, John Schrag wrote: > We've offered to waive the fee, but now we're fighting the clock. > > The map is being produced as we speak, so we need to know by the end > of > today whether to list it. > > > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > > 503-357-3181 > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] > On > Behalf Of Martha Khoury > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 1:53 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) > > Turns out it's not the money that is at issue -- it's the manpower. > Anyone available? > > This year's house may not be painted and ready to tour by then, but > last year's house is. > > The realtor already has 6 houses listed and is not able to "man" any > additional houses. If someone has time/interest to staff the Viking > house(s) during the tour, please contact Maggie Boehmer at (503) > 849-6143. Tell her Tanya said to call. > > > > > On May 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > >> Jeff -- Got this message from John. You might pass it along to the >> right folks. I'd be willing to contribute toward the $69 if someone >> can get the info to the NT in a timely fashion. --MK >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: "John Schrag" >>> Date: May 18, 2009 1:18:49 PM PDT >>> To: "'Martha Khoury'" >>> Subject: Viking House >>> >>> Martha, I saw your note on grovenet. It's odd, because we just were >>> wondering why the Viking House isn't on the citywide home tour on >>> May 31. We're putting together a guide for local agents to show off >>> about 40 homes that will be hosting open houses that day, but the >>> Viking House isn't on it (it costs just $69 to be in the guide, >>> which will be distributed in Forest Grove and Beaverton). >>> >>> If you know anyone who's involved, have them call me or Janet >>> Peters. The deadline was last week, but we could try to squeeze the >>> listing in the guide if someone contacts us today. I agree, it's >>> important that the house get sold. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> John Schrag >>> Editor & Publisher >>> News-Times >>> >>> 503-357-3181 >> >> ------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon May 18 15:24:24 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) Message-ID: <130715.84185.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I think getting the house on the May 31st tour would be an excellent start.? I've left voicemails for both Maggie Boehmer and Chris Higginbotham (the teacher in charge of the Viking House).? Obviously we need to coordinate with FGSD to make an open house a possibility. For my part I'm willing to spend several hours there as well, in addition to donating my gas barbeque to make hot dogs for those coming.? Let's make this happen and get the house, uh ball, whatever rollin'! Regards, Jeff Cooper 503-357-3577 From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon May 18 18:55:22 2009 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:55:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) In-Reply-To: <130715.84185.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was in that class. I'd volunteer time on Sunday between 11:30 to 1:30. Would that help?? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jeff Cooper > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:24 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) > > > I think getting the house on the May 31st tour would be an excellent > start.? I've left voicemails for both Maggie Boehmer and Chris > Higginbotham (the teacher in charge of the Viking House).? Obviously we > need to coordinate with FGSD to make an open house a possibility. > > For my part I'm willing to spend several hours there as well, in addition > to donating my gas barbeque to make hot dogs for those coming.? > > Let's make this happen and get the house, uh ball, whatever rollin'! > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > 503-357-3577 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon May 18 19:07:22 2009 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) Message-ID: <436128.33424.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I spoke with Maggie and apparently *they have an offer on last year's house*!? Apparently the buyers are really looking forward to moving in.? The offer is contingent on the selling of their current house, however (which is usually the case).? Maggie hopes to speak with Chris to find out if this year's house will be ready by the 31st for the city's open house tour.? If not, it might still be possible to show last year's house, and Maggie is going to work on that. I told her I'd be willing to donate my b-b-q and she thought that was a great idea.? Obviously as we get more volunteers from Grovenet, etc., we'll be in a better place to know how to proceed.? It might be too late for John to add it to this year's tour though, don't know.? Let's see what happens tomorrow. Regards, Jeff --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Steven wrote: From: Steven Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 6:55 PM I was in that class. I'd volunteer time on Sunday between 11:30 to 1:30. Would that help?? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On > Behalf Of Jeff Cooper > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:24 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Help sell the Viking house(s) > > > I think getting the house on the May 31st tour would be an excellent > start.? I've left voicemails for both Maggie Boehmer and Chris > Higginbotham (the teacher in charge of the Viking House).? Obviously we > need to coordinate with FGSD to make an open house a possibility. > > For my part I'm willing to spend several hours there as well, in addition > to donating my gas barbeque to make hot dogs for those coming.? > > Let's make this happen and get the house, uh ball, whatever rollin'! > > Regards, > > Jeff Cooper > 503-357-3577 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 20 08:36:50 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:36:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles Message-ID: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I wonder which Clinton had a hand in this? http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=30845203&pg1=2501 -------------- next part -------------- http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=30845203 From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 20 11:22:36 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:22:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4A144A6C.7080804@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090520/da489076/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Wed May 20 11:45:31 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:45:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: <4A144A6C.7080804@jurislex.com> References: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4A144A6C.7080804@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <9C9D5A00-8CE4-4A48-9A69-9558E754215B@teleport.com> Or just some sticky-fingered meth addict looking to feed his or her habit... note that practically everybody and his dog had access to this "secure" area, apparently for four months or more... Walt On May 20, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Maybe not a Clinton, but a left over Bushie looking for an October > surprise?? > > bob > ++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: >> >> I wonder which Clinton had a hand in this? >> >> http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx? >> afid=1&aid=30845203&pg1=2501 >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 20 11:59:23 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:59:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Wed, 20 May 2009 11:45:31 -0700 Message-ID: <25054-4A14530B-488@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Bob... buy October surprise, what do you mean? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090520/410d8ab4/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 20 12:10:17 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:10:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] October surprise . . . In-Reply-To: <25054-4A14530B-488@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25054-4A14530B-488@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4A145599.4020408@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090520/610e0272/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090520/610e0272/attachment.jpe From jo.david at verizon.net Wed May 20 12:41:28 2009 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:41:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <2F00ECC0-6BEE-43A6-A10D-D2DA70FFCD18@verizon.net> The drive is missing from the Archives facility in College Park, Md., a Washington suburb. The drive was lost between October 2008 and March 2009 and contained 1 terabyte of data - enough material to fill millions of books. A Republican committee aide who was at the inspector general's briefing said the Archives had been converting the Clinton administration information to a digital records system when the hard drive went missing. October-January was the Bush Administration wasn't it? That would be a 80% chance that Republicans were in charge at the time. So, of course it is best to blame Clinton, who wasn't there for eight years. David On May 20, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: > I wonder which Clinton had a hand in this? > > http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx? > afid=1&aid=30845203&pg1=2501 > > http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=30845203 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Wed May 20 12:56:39 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:56:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] October surprise . . . In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Wed, 20 May 2009 12:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: <25058-4A146077-188@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> poor wood choice... I meant by From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com Wed May 20 13:04:56 2009 From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:04:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] October surprise . . . In-Reply-To: <25058-4A146077-188@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: Bob Browning 's message of Wed, 20 May 200912:10:17 -0700 <25058-4A146077-188@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <200905202004.n4KK4nuU013494@barrierM241.nike.com> Hi All, My friend found a bird near her home yesterday. Please see below for details Thanks and have a good day Kathy From: Guatimea, Gisele Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:30 AM To: Kathy Ayala Subject: Found - Pet Bird A pet bird was found in Forest Grove near D Street on May19th. If you or someone you know has lost a bird recently please call 503-415-0364 to claim. Thanks, Gisele From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 20 13:34:15 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:34:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] October surprise . . . In-Reply-To: <25058-4A146077-188@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25058-4A146077-188@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4A146947.70702@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090520/2fa788ba/attachment.html From hannah at teleport.com Wed May 20 13:55:34 2009 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:55:34 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] FW: Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Gee... I thought of Cheney first. But then I got to thinking it was 'below' him... no challenge at all. I keep my public school kindergarten room much "tighter" than that! Kristy From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 20 13:56:21 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:56:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles References: <4388-4A142392-2101@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <2F00ECC0-6BEE-43A6-A10D-D2DA70FFCD18@verizon.net> Message-ID: <22507FDFF48F49FF8AF1C5255E49EB15@gerianehzkfhvy> "So, of course it is best to blame Clinton, who wasn't there for eight years." That's to be expected, isn't it? ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Morelli" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sensitive data missing from National Archives - MSNBC Articles > > The drive is missing from the Archives facility in College Park, Md., > a Washington suburb. The drive was lost between October 2008 and > March 2009 and contained 1 terabyte of data - enough material to fill > millions of books. > > A Republican committee aide who was at the inspector general's > briefing said the Archives had been converting the Clinton > administration information to a digital records system when the hard > drive went missing. > > > > October-January was the Bush Administration wasn't it? That would be > a 80% chance that Republicans were in charge at the time. So, of > course it is best to blame Clinton, who wasn't there for eight years. > > David > > On May 20, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: > >> I wonder which Clinton had a hand in this? >> >> http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx? >> afid=1&aid=30845203&pg1=2501 >> >> http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=30845203 >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 20 16:28:29 2009 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:28:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Be careful of what you ask for . . . . Message-ID: <4A14921D.3060102@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090520/110a4488/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rcp_logo_150.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5396 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090520/110a4488/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: videolthumb.61c9cb45aeda1241e467fce5edf301d5.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10089 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090520/110a4488/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: capt.b645715818a9442d8c6fed22eb3083c9.obama_autos_whcd111.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20207 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090520/110a4488/attachment-0002.jpg From allnutt at verizon.net Wed May 20 19:29:21 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:29:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Be careful of what you ask for . . . . In-Reply-To: <4A14921D.3060102@jurislex.com> References: <4A14921D.3060102@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <282E9895-42B6-48EE-8A73-0DF113B4AF62@verizon.net> And the reality is that the American people are the real losers because we have some major issues to deal with and the low blows the politicians are trying to deal each other are just a distraction. Child abuse is up all over the country as much as 60% in some states (the hospital workers see more parents losing their temper as they lose their jobs) Police forces are cutting back on investigations of minor crimes to concentrate their shrinking resources on major crimes leading to better trained criminals. Neighborhoods with half the homes in foreclosure are seeing more drug houses move in. Etc. I don't care about the name calling and posturing, but it sure would be nice if we could get some work done on trade policy and financial regulations so a couple of big insurance companies don't again lead us to what President Bush described as the brink of worldwide economic collapse which we will be recovering from for several more years. Katie On May 20, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Opinion > In the End Republicans, Not Pelosi, Will Lose > > > Play Video ABC > News ? The GOP Takes on Pelosi > > AP > ? President Barack Obama walks with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of > Calif. to an event in the Rose Garden ? > > Bob Beckel ? Tue May 19, 1:00 am ET > Did House Speaker Nancy Pelosi step into a political quagmire > during her press conference on the Bush Administration's torture > tactics? Yes. Will President Obama's agenda lose momentum now that > this "who said what and when" drama will suck oxygen out of the > presidents tailwind? Almost certainly. Will there now be some type > of independent commission established to investigate the treatment > of war prisoners during the Bush/Cheney reign? Count on it. Who > will suffer the greatest political damage from all this? Without > question the Republican Party. > > Watching Republicans rush to the microphones after the Pelosi press > conference last Thursday to salivate over the speaker's > performance, I was reminded of the somber parade of GOP House > members as they made the walk from the House to the Senate carrying > the Articles of Impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton. In their > hands they held what they surely believed to be a weapon that would > doom the Clinton Presidency and insure election year victories > solidifying Republican majorities. > > > That was 1998. What unfolded that year was; the exoneration of > Clinton in the Senate; a massive public revulsion against > Republicans for pursuing such a ridiculous pogrom; the loss of GOP > seats in the House and Senate; and the ouster of House Speaker Newt > Gingrich. Will Republicans never learn? Do they really believe that > Middle America cares about what Nancy Pelosi knew and when she knew > it? If so they will be in for a stunning lesson in the old "be > careful what you ask for" school of dumb desires. > For those few Republicans who do understand the potential for blow > back from such an investigation and don't want it, the issue is > settled. There will be an investigative body established by an act > of Congress. But it will be the majority Democrats who will define > the parameters of the investigation. Of necessity that will include > Pelosi's involvement but the scope will be much, much broader if > for no other reason than to dilute the impact of the Speaker's > exposure. > > The mandate will insure that everything from secret CIA prisons in > foreign countries, to the tortured legal rational by Bush/Cheney > lawyers on the dubious legality of waterboarding; to Dick Cheney's > public statements about an Iraqi nuclear program and Iraqi > involvement in 9/11; to Bush Administration members who will > testify that no WMD were in Iraq before the war; to the FBI's > insistence that what helpful intelligence did come from captured > terrorists was in hand before waterboarding and enhanced > investigation tactics were employed; and much more. > > By the time this investigation is concluded (probably as campaign > 2010 heats up) Nancy Pelosi's briefing history will be a footnote > to a scathing report on the Bush/Cheney attempts at fabricating or > creating intelligence to justify the war in Iraq. What's more, for > the length of the investigation the most public figure will not be > Nancy Pelosi but rather Dick Cheney, arguably the most unpopular > politician in America. His presence will only remind Americans of > the Bush Administration, indisputably the most unpopular > Administration in the past fifty years. > > What Pelosi knew and when she knew it is only interesting to the > base of the Republican Party. That base has already shrunk to a > dangerously low percentage of voters (between 20 and 25 percent > according to some polls). With numbers that small Republicans could > qualify for Affirmative Action Grants under civil rights law. > > There's no reason to assume, however, that the Republicans will shy > away from this suicide course. The Clinton impeachment was only one > example of the Republican penchant for self inflicted political > wounds. Their pursuit of Pelosi now has the potential to exact even > more pain on an already wounded GOP. History tells us that the > party out of power picks up Congressional seats in midterm > elections. The Republican desire to revisit the Bush years may well > insure history, in this case, does not repeat itself. > > Instead of acting like a minority party and raising policy > alternatives to President Obama's far reaching initiatives, the GOP > has decided that opening the wounds of the Bush Administration to > topple Speaker Pelosi is somehow smart politics. Certainly there > will be some damage done to the Obama agenda simply because an > investigation of this magnitude could well push Obama's initiatives > off the front pages but only for a brief time. > > Most Republicans on the Hill believe pursuing Pelosi is smart > politics. It's not, and it may well be political suicide. In the > end Nancy Pelosi might get a black eye from all of this, but the > Republicans will end up in the intensive care unit on their > continuing journey toward political flat lining. > > > 61c9cb45aeda1241e467fce5edf301d5.jpg> 083c9.obama_autos_whcd111.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Fri May 22 13:20:54 2009 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:20:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] roofer recommendation Message-ID: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> I have a pal in Gales Creek who need a new roof? Any good recommendations? Thanks- Barb From Palmy at comcast.net Fri May 22 14:50:42 2009 From: Palmy at comcast.net (Palmy) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:50:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] roofer recommendation In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A171E32.1070001@comcast.net> Hi Barb, Three years ago I had Mark Drehere of C & M Roofing put a new roof on my home here on Lavina. I was very pleased with the professional way that Mark and his employees handled the job. They did everything that was promised in a very timely manner. C & M Roofing, 97l-255-6080 or 503-357-8612 Hope you have a wonderful weekend! Palmy Garland b Smith wrote: >I have a pal in Gales Creek who need a new roof? >Any good recommendations? >Thanks- >Barb >_______________________________________________ > > > > From edavie at verizon.net Fri May 22 15:09:27 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:09:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just in case anyone is taken in this time! Message-ID: <5EAB9FEB0CD643E9B4BDCB3B1FDAD288@EDavie> The August Mars Hoax Is Back NO WAY. This is a screen shot from a version of the August Mars chain letter we've received, pictures and all. Some versions of the letter mention that the Mars view has to be magnified 75 times to look like this, but even that hasn't been true since August 2003. For the real comparison, see below. S&T: Alan MacRobertThe annual August Mars Hoax is back yet again. Actually, "hoax" is the wrong word, unless some joker is now spreading it knowingly (quite possible). It's an e-mail chain letter claiming that Mars is about to come closer than ever in history and will look as big and bright as the full Moon with the naked eye. If your well-meaning great-aunt or your cousin's brother-in-law's dog hasn't sent it to you yet, it's probably just a matter of time. What's going on is this. Back in 2003 (that's 2003 with a 3), Mars had an especially favorable opposition, coming close enough to Earth to appear 25 arcseconds wide. That's still pretty tiny even in a telescope - smaller, for instance, than Jupiter always appears. THE REAL STORY. Even when Mars is closest and brightest at opposition, it looks like an orangish star, nowhere near as big and bright as the full Moon. S&T: Rick FienbergBack then, someone somewhere pointed out that at a magnification of 75? in a telescope, Mars would appear as big in the eyepiece (?? wide) as the Moon does unmagnified. True enough. But two things happened, as often do with chain letters. First, it got rewritten bit by bit to improve the story as people passed it around, so that the "75?" was downplayed or, in some versions, even left out. Second, the chain letter kept going and going long after August 2003 receded into the mists of history. In 2009, for instance, there is no opposition of Mars!. Its next opposition will come on January 29, 2010, and even that will be a poor one, with Mars appearing no larger than 14 arcseconds wide. Every year I give news media, when they phone Sky & Telescope, the following quote: "The Mars chain letter is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. It's an immunization. If you make a stupid fool of yourself to your family and friends by sending it to them, you may be embarrassed enough not to send them the next e-mail chain letter you get, which may not be so harmless." P. S.: The first place to check for facts about any internet rumor, hoax, or urban legend is www.snopes.com. Bookmark it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mars-hoax-screen-shot.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32271 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090522/9895b518/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MoonMarsDiff_300.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9804 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090522/9895b518/attachment-0001.jpg From jim at benchmarkinspections.com Fri May 22 15:12:41 2009 From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:12:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] roofer recommendation In-Reply-To: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Barb, I've had very good experiences with: Pat Woods at Cooper Mountain Roofing 503 649-2367 Aaron Orthmann at Tom Leach Roofing 503 238-0303 Keith Green at Keith Green Construction 503 681-7912 Harold Washington at Washington Roofing 503 472-7663 They all do excellent work. - Jim Katen -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of b Smith Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 1:21 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] roofer recommendation I have a pal in Gales Creek who need a new roof? Any good recommendations? Thanks- Barb _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jim at benchmarkinspections.com Fri May 22 15:17:08 2009 From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:17:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just in case anyone is taken in this time! In-Reply-To: <5EAB9FEB0CD643E9B4BDCB3B1FDAD288@EDavie> References: <5EAB9FEB0CD643E9B4BDCB3B1FDAD288@EDavie> Message-ID: <5EBEDCCCA8284AF48ABEFBC93930AB97@JimDell> So Ed, are you saying that this picture might have been doctored? - Jim Katen -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Davie Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:09 PM To: Grovenet, F.G. Subject: [Grovenet] Just in case anyone is taken in this time! The August Mars Hoax Is Back NO WAY. This is a screen shot from a version of the August Mars chain letter we've received, pictures and all. Some versions of the letter mention that the Mars view has to be magnified 75 times to look like this, but even that hasn't been true since August 2003. For the real comparison, see below. S&T: Alan MacRobertThe annual August Mars Hoax is back yet again. Actually, "hoax" is the wrong word, unless some joker is now spreading it knowingly (quite possible). It's an e-mail chain letter claiming that Mars is about to come closer than ever in history and will look as big and bright as the full Moon with the naked eye. If your well-meaning great-aunt or your cousin's brother-in-law's dog hasn't sent it to you yet, it's probably just a matter of time. What's going on is this. Back in 2003 (that's 2003 with a 3), Mars had an especially favorable opposition, coming close enough to Earth to appear 25 arcseconds wide. That's still pretty tiny even in a telescope - smaller, for instance, than Jupiter always appears. THE REAL STORY. Even when Mars is closest and brightest at opposition, it looks like an orangish star, nowhere near as big and bright as the full Moon. S&T: Rick FienbergBack then, someone somewhere pointed out that at a magnification of 75? in a telescope, Mars would appear as big in the eyepiece (?? wide) as the Moon does unmagnified. True enough. But two things happened, as often do with chain letters. First, it got rewritten bit by bit to improve the story as people passed it around, so that the "75?" was downplayed or, in some versions, even left out. Second, the chain letter kept going and going long after August 2003 receded into the mists of history. In 2009, for instance, there is no opposition of Mars!. Its next opposition will come on January 29, 2010, and even that will be a poor one, with Mars appearing no larger than 14 arcseconds wide. Every year I give news media, when they phone Sky & Telescope, the following quote: "The Mars chain letter is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. It's an immunization. If you make a stupid fool of yourself to your family and friends by sending it to them, you may be embarrassed enough not to send them the next e-mail chain letter you get, which may not be so harmless." P. S.: The first place to check for facts about any internet rumor, hoax, or urban legend is www.snopes.com. Bookmark it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mars Rising.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93027 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090522/b9461a95/attachment.jpg From waltw at teleport.com Fri May 22 15:22:14 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> I have an old (very old) rototiller powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3- HP engine. I used to use it regularly, but It has been in storage for years and is as dead as Jesse James. Anyone local who can to get it going again? Walt Wentz From ron at ronhowden.com Fri May 22 15:29:29 2009 From: ron at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:29:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> Message-ID: Chainsaw Wizard on Raymond st. Ron H. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:22 PM To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? I have an old (very old) rototiller powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3- HP engine. I used to use it regularly, but It has been in storage for years and is as dead as Jesse James. Anyone local who can to get it going again? Walt Wentz _______________________________________________ From ron at ronhowden.com Fri May 22 15:33:41 2009 From: ron at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:33:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> Message-ID: Walt, Here is the contact info: CHAINSAW WIZARD 3016 Raymond Street Forest Grove, OR 97116. P: 503-359-3599. Ron H. ############################################################# -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:22 PM To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? I have an old (very old) rototiller powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3- HP engine. I used to use it regularly, but It has been in storage for years and is as dead as Jesse James. Anyone local who can to get it going again? Walt Wentz _______________________________________________ From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 22 15:38:21 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:38:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just in case anyone is taken in this time! In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Fri, 22 May 2009 15:09:27 -0700 Message-ID: <9613-4A17295D-1500@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> to bad it's a hoax, for I'm still waiting for some little greenment to show up From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 22 15:42:25 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:42:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: "Ron Howden" 's message of Fri, 22 May 2009 15:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: <9608-4A172A51-3848@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Banks Hardware ... the only thing they can't make work any better is an olehoss From waltw at teleport.com Fri May 22 15:46:08 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:46:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1B8100F7-FD8E-466D-9A7A-96BC49549FC7@teleport.com> Thanks, Ron, I left them a message! Walt On May 22, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > Walt, > Here is the contact info: > CHAINSAW WIZARD 3016 Raymond Street Forest Grove, OR 97116. P: > 503-359-3599. > > Ron H. > ############################################################# > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:22 PM > To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? > > I have an old (very old) rototiller powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3- > HP engine. I used to use it regularly, but It has been in storage for > years and is as dead as Jesse James. > Anyone local who can to get it going again? > Walt Wentz > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri May 22 15:51:02 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:51:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? In-Reply-To: <9608-4A172A51-3848@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <9608-4A172A51-3848@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <36B23BD4-8B10-443B-B2D0-0DC5E3518C91@teleport.com> Yep, I tried them once. They said arthritis was not their specialty. Walt On May 22, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: > Banks Hardware ... the only thing they can't make work any better > is an > olehoss > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 22 19:32:05 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:32:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Banks Hardware vs Arthritis In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Fri, 22 May 2009 15:51:02 -0700 Message-ID: <9609-4A176025-3665@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Maybe they can't fix my arthritis, or as my doctor says is Degenerative Joint Disease. However, they have lots of WD40 From edavie at verizon.net Fri May 22 19:53:33 2009 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:53:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My first roses of the season Message-ID: <34B95107A1644456B4D95877C8B169A7@EDavie> My first roses of the season! Ed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: First Rose 09003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62153 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090522/2d1726e7/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: First Rose 09001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 99316 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20090522/2d1726e7/attachment-0003.jpg From kathyayala at msn.com Fri May 22 20:35:01 2009 From: kathyayala at msn.com (Kathy Ayala) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:35:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My first roses of the season In-Reply-To: <34B95107A1644456B4D95877C8B169A7@EDavie> References: <34B95107A1644456B4D95877C8B169A7@EDavie> Message-ID: Very Very Nice, First Roses of Summer! ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Davie To: Grovenet, F.G. Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: [Grovenet] My first roses of the season My first roses of the season! Ed From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Fri May 22 20:59:41 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:59:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My first roses of the season In-Reply-To: "Kathy Ayala" 's message of Fri, 22 May 2009 20:35:01 -0700 Message-ID: <9609-4A1774AD-3784@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> it's still to cold and windy up here... have a lot of buds on all of my roses .. just none that are starting to open yet.... From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 25 07:38:38 2009 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 07:38:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller for sale? In-Reply-To: References: <7eaadfd10905221320l48312a34v741fb6199007d8aa@mail.gmail.com> <9FCDA3FB-3856-4B98-8196-EEB0E105CAA3@teleport.com> Message-ID: Anybody know where I can get a deal on a good heavy rototiller for the Community Garden? Preferably a riding model that can also tow a small trailer, but any good durable machine will do. It's just a can of worms to try to get volunteer rototilling done in this busy season, and we don't want to impose on people repeatedly. So, if we can swing an affordable deal, we'd like to get our own machine. Also, any mechanical genius wanting my old rototiller, which is an old Gilson Cadet that has been dead as Jesse James for at least 10 years, can have it for free. I'll put it in my front yard (1817 17th Avenue) with a sign on it. First come, first grabs. A word of warning, when/if you do get it going again: It is tine- propelled, which means it drags you along like a tin can tied to a dog's tail whenever it hits a hard patch, or it jumps up and kicks you in the liver if you aren't paying attention when it strikes a submerged rock. No returns! Walt On May 22, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > Walt, > Here is the contact info: > CHAINSAW WIZARD 3016 Raymond Street Forest Grove, OR 97116. P: > 503-359-3599. > > Ron H. > ############################################################# > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:22 PM > To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Rototiller magician? > > I have an old (very old) rototiller powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3- > HP engine. I used to use it regularly, but It has been in storage for > years and is as dead as Jesse James. > Anyone local who can to get it going again? > Walt Wentz > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Mon May 25 14:19:09 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:19:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My first roses of the season In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Fri, 22 May 2009 19:53:33 -0700 Message-ID: <22432-4A1B0B4D-929@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> have a lot of roses, but my ole camera gave out, and my new camera has not arrived as of yet. From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Tue May 26 10:26:01 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:26:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose Message-ID: <2654-4A1C2629-2560@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> This one is called Mrs America http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/MrsAmerica/ -------------- next part -------------- http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/MrsAmerica From allnutt at verizon.net Tue May 26 11:25:14 2009 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:25:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose In-Reply-To: <2654-4A1C2629-2560@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <2654-4A1C2629-2560@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <24DBB0E3-5DFD-4E2E-967A-C4168B6CEB4D@verizon.net> I like it when they are just buds because it really conveys a sense of impending beauty..... Katie On May 26, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss wrote: > This one is called Mrs America > > http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/MrsAmerica/ > > http://community.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/MrsAmerica > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue May 26 12:01:45 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:01:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose References: <2654-4A1C2629-2560@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <8D8D24D87FB84987AABA260AEB68D172@gerianehzkfhvy> Beautiful color, Alan. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:26 AM Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose > This one is called Mrs America > > http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/MrsAmerica/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net Tue May 26 12:12:29 2009 From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini aka an OleHoss) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:12:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose In-Reply-To: "Geri" 's message of Tue, 26 May 2009 12:01:45 -0700 Message-ID: <15940-4A1C3F1D-2081@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> just as soon as it has opened up ... I shall re-send it... hard to belive the pix was taken by my cell phone. However, I can not adjust the pix like my ole camera could, for what you see is what you get. From braketimecoffee at hotmail.com Wed May 27 21:03:56 2009 From: braketimecoffee at hotmail.com (Glenn Berkheimer) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:03:56 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose In-Reply-To: <15940-4A1C3F1D-2081@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: "Geri" 's message of Tue, 26 May 2009 12:01:45 -0700 <15940-4A1C3F1D-2081@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: The link did not open for me. :-( Since your having a problem with your camera get in touch with me. Long before I started in the coffee business I was a professional photographer (well, actually still am I guess) and if given the time that I can do it I can stop by and take some photos for you if your camera does not arrive. Glenn ============================================================= > From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:12:29 -0700 > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] my first 2009 rose > > just as soon as it has opened up ... I shall re-send it... hard to > belive the pix was taken by my cell phone. However, I can not adjust > the pix like my ole camera could, for what you see is what you get. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sat May 30 19:46:40 2009 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (isis23ra at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] 6/8/09, 7 PM, Library late fees meeting Message-ID: <925609.65671.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, Attention Library Users! FG Grove city Council is considering implementing library late fines for over due library materials. let them know your opinion about this on: Monday, June 8, 2009 at 7 PM at The Forest Grove Community Auditorium 1915 Main Street. All opinions welcome.? Also feel free to email our council people and mayor and city manager about your thoughts and feelings about this issue. http://www.forestgrove-or.gov/city-government/city-council-and-mayor-contact-information.html Thanks Alana A life long library lover From olehosstreefarm at webtv.net Sun May 31 09:16:01 2009 From: olehosstreefarm at webtv.net (olehosstreefarm at webtv.net) Date: 31 May 2009 09:16:01 Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from Hoss Message-ID: <200905311616.n4VGGD8d090684@www179.123greetings.com> Hi, Congrats for Free Iphone. http://tinyurl.com/2a86ht Hurry. the offer is limited.! You have been just sent an electronic greeting card at Nicegreetings.com - The free site for online greeting cards! (http://www.nicegreetings.com) To view your card, choose from any of the following options which works best for you. -------- Method 1 -------- Just click on the following Internet address (if that doesn't work for you, copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) http://cards.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/cards/showcard.pl?cardnum=ZRH80531091601851&log=beinlove -------- Method 2 -------- Copy & paste your card number in the view card box at http://www.nicegreetings.com Your card number is ZRH80531091601851 (For your convenience, the greeting card will be available for the next 30 days) Webmaster, http://www.nicegreetings.com From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun May 31 09:29:40 2009 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:29:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from Hoss References: <200905311616.n4VGGD8d090684@www179.123greetings.com> Message-ID: <6EEB8C20AE804F3282D8B1BD950E1ACB@gerianehzkfhvy> I agree! Furthermore, the first decade of the 2000s is nearing its end! Thanks, Alan. :-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:16 AM Subject: [Grovenet] E-Card from Hoss > Hi, > > > You have been just sent an electronic greeting card at Nicegreetings.com - The free site for online greeting cards! (http://www.nicegreetings.com) > > > To view your card, choose from any of the following options > which works best for you. > > -------- > Method 1 > -------- > > Just click on the following Internet address (if that doesn't work for > you, copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) > > http://cards.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/cards/showcard.pl?cardnum=ZRH80531091601851&log=beinlove > > -------- > Method 2 > -------- > > Copy & paste your card number in the view card box at > http://www.nicegreetings.com > > Your card number is > ZRH80531091601851 > > (For your convenience, the greeting card will be available for the next > 30 days) > > Webmaster, > http://www.nicegreetings.com > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >