From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 1 06:27:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:27:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] this ought to start some References: <22936-4BB42C41-281@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BB49F2D.00000C.02708@DON-B2514E06367> I can see in the case of someone with a knife or a sword a cop could shoot well enough to disable them; a shot in the leg would do it. But a person with a gun is a whole different ball game. Cops get shot just by responding to family arguements. A person with a gun who does not immediately drop it is very dangerous to anyone in range of the gun. To serve and Protect. Badge Heavy I am sure many Chiefs discourage, if not more. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 3/31/2010 10:17:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] this ought to start some ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/e880b909/attachment-0001.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 07:32:35 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 07:32:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where *does* all that money the RNC raise go to? In-Reply-To: <4BB49D6A.000006.02708@DON-B2514E06367> References: <026c01cacf87$19ca8dc0$4d5fa940$@com> <64F77B0C-0E80-40DD-905B-697FE79868F5@verizon.net> <1A21EE08-AE7F-4431-8C48-89C2A35C6877@verizon.net> <4BB417C5.000014.03184@DON-B2514E06367> <1C2BD7BC-AB38-48EE-800F-A39F282DFFEB@verizon.net> <4BB49D6A.000006.02708@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <956C1D01-C1E8-4661-9B0D-ABE29F0D617C@verizon.net> Radical costs of the last inauguration? The trick du jour for reporting was to compare Bush's inauguration of 2005 but listing only the cost for the celebration, with Obama's inauguration for the cost of the party plus security. Apples to oranges. If you compare apples to apples, it was well within reason for inflation and a change of political party. (Approx 43.5 million vs 45 million) http://mediamatters.org/columns/200901170003 It seems a bit unfair to say that because there are more death threats against Obama the tax payers are paying too much for security fit for a king. Pelsoi vs Dennis Hastert? Planes are the same. Oh but wait Pelosi lives in California. There is a reasonable explanation for why Pelosi's plane trips cost more as Speaker of the House, she lives somewhere else. And it wasn't Pelosi who requested the plane. She was content to fly on commercial jets as she had always done. But it was the security folks who wanted her to fly in a more secure way, which has been the tradition for the house speaker with the advent of more violence toward government officials. This is not an artifact of which party is in power. Yes, you are correct that there is too much money floating around and that it doesn't just reflect on one party or the other. The five conservative activists on the Supreme Court who just opened the door for more graft in elections isn't helping with the recent Citizens United decision. Now the graft and bribes will just be legal. Katie On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > Yes, I remember all of that. > > I remember the radical costs of the last inauguration.......the > largest cost ever fostered on the tax payer, fit for a King heh? > > I remember quite often the $17,000 cost to the Air Force, AKA > citizens taxes, blown by Pelosi to fly home to Califruit several > times a month. > > There is too much graft in congress, too much money wasted, and > none of that sets on the throne of any party. > > Getting moral people in government isn't a bad idea. > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 3/31/2010 10:19:42 PM > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where *does* all that money the RNC raise > go to? > > > > > > > On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > > Add to that, when someone does really wrong, they are immediately > fired. > > > Immediately fired? > Would that be as quick as these guys: > John Ensign? > David Vitter? > Mark Sanford? > Larry Craig? > Rudy Giuliani? > Newt Gingrich? > > > Some of them did eventually go,usually at the next election if at > all, but 'immediately' is a pretty far stretch to describe how they > left. > > Elliot Spitzer was gone pretty quick and, even though it took a > while, John Edwards was ousted on the Democratic side. They don't > seem to be hanging on in the style of Gingrich and Giuliani either. > Bill Clinton still isn't gone so there's no claim from me that > Democrats are any purer. > > And it should be noted that nobody is claiming that taking the > Young Eagles, as the republicans called them, to a meal at Voyeur > was illegal activity. It just looks bad when the party of Puritan > values does it and calls it a campaign expense again. Why do I > say again, you ask? Anybody remember Pete Sessions of the > National Republican Campaign Committee spending $5K on a Las Vegas > Club called 40 Deuce where the dancers strip to near nudity just a > couple of years ago? No? Well, evidently memories are short on the > Republican side these days. > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/ > 073008dnmetsessions.3fdea95.html > > Bad sex and bad wars are not in the same league. > > Acts.txt> From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 07:57:17 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:57:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Gardener wanted In-Reply-To: <377900.74316.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <377900.74316.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4497A59B-AD53-4692-8EAC-2AC781C12121@teleport.com> Alan Roth is a longtime lawnkeeper/landscaper here in town. He works at reasonable rates, and his number is in the phone book. Walt On Mar 31, 2010, at 11:31 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Hi Martha, > > My friend, Kevin, does yard work for my partner and me for $15/ > hour. He is marvelous. He has been very instrumental in helping me > turn my backyard into a beautiful Victorian garden with perennials, > berries, raised veggie beds, roses, annuals, etc. He mows, he > edges, he pulls weeds, sweeps sidewalks, and cleans up after > himself. He has an excellent eye for color and what plants work > best together and where they're best planted. He takes orders well, > but contributes his great ideas when asked. He's also hilariously > fun and charming to be around, but still a great worker. > > If you're interested, email me offline and I'll give you Kevin's > contact info. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Martha Khoury > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 3:54:11 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Gardener wanted > > I'm looking for someone with interest/experience, not just a lawn > mower, someone who can take some pride of ownership in helping me > reorganize and maintain our borders. > My husband does the vegetable gardening and we already have a lawn > mower. I need someone who doesn't mind pulling weeds and thinning > bulbs, etc. > > I'd like to pay about $10/hour but could go a little higher if > warranted. > (This person needs to speak and understand English very well.) > > Any recommendations? Am I in fantasy land? > > --Martha Khoury > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 1 10:05:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:05:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Me thinks the lady doth protesteth too much . . . . Message-ID: <4BB4D24B.1060900@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/f79bf11c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/f79bf11c/attachment.png From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 1 10:46:39 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:46:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Official Google Blog: A different kind of company name Message-ID: <4BB4DBFF.1050808@jurislex.com> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/different-kind-of-company-name.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 1 11:05:35 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:05:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Boy, what a legal and moral mess . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <81B4FCF1-EE73-4589-8493-3E0A9ABFA600@verizon.net> References: <4BB294E2.90800@jurislex.com> <81B4FCF1-EE73-4589-8493-3E0A9ABFA600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004301cad1c5$ef4576f0$cdd064d0$@com> David, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: David Morelli > > Is the document available to the court for the court to determine > if it says what is claimed? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's available online, translated from its original Latin to English. http://www.scribd.com/doc/4841413/Crimen-Sollicitationis-english Enjoy, Jeff From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 13:31:18 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:31:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Official Google Blog: A different kind of company name In-Reply-To: <4BB4DBFF.1050808@jurislex.com> References: <4BB4DBFF.1050808@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <7BE93292-9BE4-4FEF-9D38-ABFF55B49CA3@verizon.net> Too bad Portland didn't get the nod. But "I Portlanded him before I went on a date" doesn't sound as good as "I Topeka'd him". Just be careful Bob that people don't Topeka you improperly. ; ) Katie On Apr 1, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/different-kind-of-company- > name.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 13:48:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:48:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies Message-ID: Dear Friend, It's been a little more than a week since Tea Party protesters hurled racial and homophobic slurs and spat at members of Congress. I don't want to repeat the language they used. Their despicable statements were widely reported in the media, and be assured this was no isolated or fringe event. What the Tea Party protesters said was beyond defensible. But that's not even the worst of it. The Tea Party movement is inciting violent acts targeting Democrats who voted to support the health care reform bill. Democrats and Republicans alike must immediately address this atmosphere of violence targeting our elected officials. You would think this would be uncontroversial in the wake of protesters shouting the "N word" in the halls of Congress. But shockingly the Republican National Committee has refused to endorse a bi-partisan "civility" statement that would send a message to the protesters. Join me in demanding that Republican leaders stop turning a blind eye to violence and hate before it gets out of control and someone gets hurt. Click the link below to add your name. http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/hate_gop/?r_by=8486-1455436- jduZWBx&rc=mailto1 From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 14:03:02 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:03:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB50A06.2060507@gmail.com> I personally despise racist and homophobic slurs, it appears that the claims against the Tea Party members was false: http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/state-run-media-now-reporting-racist-propaganda-from-huffington-post-as-fact/ Also it seems that violence is not just limited to any one side of the debate: http://www.prisonplanet.com/pro-obamacare-thugs-not-tea-party-activists-are-the-real-violent-extremists.html Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Dear Friend, > > It's been a little more than a week since Tea Party protesters hurled > racial and homophobic slurs and spat at members of Congress. I don't > want > to repeat the language they used. Their despicable statements were > widely > reported in the media, and be assured this was no isolated or fringe > event. > > What the Tea Party protesters said was beyond defensible. But that's not > even the worst of it. The Tea Party movement is inciting violent acts > targeting Democrats who voted to support the health care reform bill. > > Democrats and Republicans alike must immediately address this atmosphere > of violence targeting our elected officials. You would think this > would be > uncontroversial in the wake of protesters shouting the "N word" in the > halls of Congress. But shockingly the Republican National Committee has > refused to endorse a bi-partisan "civility" statement that would send a > message to the protesters. > > Join me in demanding that Republican leaders stop turning a blind eye to > violence and hate before it gets out of control and someone gets hurt. > Click the link below to add your name. > > http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/hate_gop/?r_by=8486-1455436- > jduZWBx&rc=mailto1 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 14:04:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:04:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] this ought to start some In-Reply-To: <4BB49F2D.00000C.02708@DON-B2514E06367> References: <22936-4BB42C41-281@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4BB49F2D.00000C.02708@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <431537CF-9579-4159-AE4D-F21C54776B72@teleport.com> A pistol is a rapid-response weapon, inaccurate for rapid use except at close range. The "self-preservation" rule I've heard is that if an attacker with any kind of weapon gets within 20 feet of you, he's too close, and you should aim at the center of the body and keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. A pity that our peace officers have to go armed and follow such rules of self-protection, but we do have some violent and armed people in this society. WW On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:27 AM, donkelly wrote: > I can see in the case of someone with a knife or a sword a cop > could shoot > well enough to disable them; a shot in the leg would do it. > > But a person with a gun is a whole different ball game. Cops get > shot just > by responding to family arguements. A person with a gun who does not > immediately drop it is very dangerous to anyone in range of the gun. > > To serve and Protect. Badge Heavy I am sure many Chiefs discourage, > if not > more. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alan AKA Hoss > Date: 3/31/2010 10:17:05 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] this ought to start some > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 14:19:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:19:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies In-Reply-To: <4BB50A06.2060507@gmail.com> References: <4BB50A06.2060507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E33632D-6491-4DE0-9165-EB94F3BFD813@teleport.com> Well, as one of the commenters below the article said, "consider the source." I note this site is liberally sprinkled with endearing little labels like "horrible liberal liars" and "state-owned media" and "anti-military Jew-hating conservative-hating Huffington Post," and adorned with ads for a "tax Revolt" All that makes me mildly-- just mildly, mind you-- suspicious that the "Gateway Pundit" might be just a LEETLE bit undependable as a source of news. WW On Apr 1, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I personally despise racist and homophobic slurs, it appears that the > claims against the Tea Party members was false: > > http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/state-run-media-now- > reporting-racist-propaganda-from-huffington-post-as-fact/ > > Also it seems that violence is not just limited to any one side of the > debate: > > http://www.prisonplanet.com/pro-obamacare-thugs-not-tea-party- > activists-are-the-real-violent-extremists.html > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Dear Friend, >> >> It's been a little more than a week since Tea Party protesters hurled >> racial and homophobic slurs and spat at members of Congress. I don't >> want >> to repeat the language they used. Their despicable statements were >> widely >> reported in the media, and be assured this was no isolated or fringe >> event. >> >> What the Tea Party protesters said was beyond defensible. But >> that's not >> even the worst of it. The Tea Party movement is inciting violent acts >> targeting Democrats who voted to support the health care reform bill. >> >> Democrats and Republicans alike must immediately address this >> atmosphere >> of violence targeting our elected officials. You would think this >> would be >> uncontroversial in the wake of protesters shouting the "N word" in >> the >> halls of Congress. But shockingly the Republican National >> Committee has >> refused to endorse a bi-partisan "civility" statement that would >> send a >> message to the protesters. >> >> Join me in demanding that Republican leaders stop turning a blind >> eye to >> violence and hate before it gets out of control and someone gets >> hurt. >> Click the link below to add your name. >> >> http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/hate_gop/?r_by=8486-1455436- >> jduZWBx&rc=mailto1 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 1 15:06:13 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:06:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It used to be nice . . . . . Message-ID: <4BB518D5.4050609@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/7dfaadda/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bw_logo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1297 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/7dfaadda/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VS_new_300x250.gif Type: image/gif Size: 38777 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/7dfaadda/attachment-0001.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 15:49:21 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:49:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Official Google Blog: A different kind of company name In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:31:18 -0700 Message-ID: <14349-4BB522F1-12079@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Phooey! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/8202d86b/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 16:02:54 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:02:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] this ought to start some In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:04:52 -0700 Message-ID: <14352-4BB5261E-7009@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:27 AM, donkelly wrote: Cops get shot just by responding to family arguments. ===== Don I was never shot at one, but sometimes I would of preferred a gun shot, for it's a lot less embarrassing than getting cold-cocked from behind with a two inch spiked heel, from the wife of the man I was trying to cuff! At that time I used to carry a wad of tie wraps in my hat which sort of cushioned the blow, so I zipped one on her, and the funny part was that she spent more time in pokey than he did, for an assault on a police officer with a deadly weapon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/592baa41/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 1 17:15:03 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:15:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . Message-ID: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/8e5f68f2/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-5.png Type: image/png Size: 1874 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/8e5f68f2/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-6.png Type: image/png Size: 1443 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/8e5f68f2/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/8e5f68f2/attachment.jpe From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 17:58:16 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:58:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] this ought to start some In-Reply-To: <14352-4BB5261E-7009@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <14352-4BB5261E-7009@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1E71348B-3FE4-421A-8A23-DFBD48B16563@teleport.com> Well that is funny! But a spike heel can indeed be a weapon. And I'd probably die of embarrassment if I had to intervene in a domestic dispute, but it sounds like you had to do it routinely. On Apr 1, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:27 AM, > donkelly wrote: > > Cops get shot just by responding to family arguments. > ===== > > Don > I was never shot at one, but sometimes > I would of preferred a gun shot, for it's a lot less embarrassing than > getting cold-cocked from behind with a two inch spiked heel, from the > wife of the man I was trying to cuff! > At that time I used to carry a wad of tie wraps in my hat which > sort of > cushioned the blow, so I zipped one on her, and the funny part was > that > she spent more time in pokey than he did, for an assault on a police > officer with a deadly weapon. > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 1 18:10:00 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:10:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time he was a freshman at Occidental. And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in his book. Nothing new there. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 3/31/2010 9:00:55 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Some time back the discussion included a question about the President's visit to Pakistan. I located a copy and took the time to read his book. His description about that portion of his life is the only primary source available, other than public statements that he visited Pakistan on his trip to visit his mother in Indonesia and his father's family in Kenya. Simple answer to the thread of statements. The book says that he went to Africa between his work in Chicago as a Community Organizer and his enrollment in Harvard Law School. That places it in 1988, not 1981. It also explains his source of money, since he had just completed five years of work after leaving Columbia in 1983. For the historical perspective. In 1988 the dictator General Zia ul Haq died in a plane crash, there were democratic elections, and Benazir Bhutto, the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, assumed to the office of Prime Minister As suggested, "Read, investigate, decide for yourself." I did. The source used by donkelly is poorly researched, or intentionally lying. And the statements about Afghanistan are pure fabrications. David > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Hi all. I think the thread is about played out, but part with some thought provoking incidents: Read, investigate, decide for yourself. >> ... >> President, then Senator, admitted to visiting Afghanistan in 1981, >> ... >> 1981 Pakistan and Afghanistan were closed to Americans, no American Citizen could get a passport to travel there. >> ... >> Obama was a poor kid of 19, yet he managed to attend school and visit Afganistan and Pakistan in the same year, without visible financing? > ... >> In my opinion it is a no brainer to assume that no one would spend nearly one million dollers to seal records of their past, unless there were multiple things in those records that had to be hidden. >> >> Where there is smoke, there is fire. You read, you decide. >> >> don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100401/545c72a6/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 18:11:02 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:11:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] this ought to start some In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:58:16 -0700 Message-ID: <24112-4BB54426-5501@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Walt says. Well that is funny! But a spike heel can indeed be a weapon. And I'd probably die of embarrassment if I had to intervene in a domestic dispute, but it sounds like you had to do it routinely. On ==== Walt, there ain't nothing routine about police work! I suppose you had to there to view the gravity of it ~A~ {:?) "That's my story and I'm Stickin' to it" From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 18:26:48 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:26:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool Message-ID: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the BIG Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and done it again. I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the ceremony. Nothing cut rate mind ya, just don't stiff me to much, I got enough to worry about already. And the Wedding Bells are set to ring again on 4/1/2011... give or take. you'll come now ya hear. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100401/cc32a5df/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 20:07:21 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:07:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <117F1A12-A4B4-4DB6-9C6D-E73540E6CD2C@verizon.net> I guess every hippie that went to Europe to bum around and go hostelling in the 60's and 70's was secretly rich in your book. If you have relatives and you are willing to lead a life of simple food and no typical American tourist lifestyle it was not that expensive to travel. Kids still do it today. Especially with all the high school exchange students. Several 'not rich' kids are trying to figure out how to just get a round trip ticket to Germany to visit an exchange student who came to FGHS a few years ago. They have a place to stay and they can pitch in a bit for food. They don't need a lot to just visit. And plane tickets do go on sale if you are flexible and willing to fly red eye and change a lot of times. So maybe he didn't lie in his book. Katie On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > > > The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time > he was a > freshman at Occidental. > > > > And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in > his book. > Nothing new there. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: David Morelli > > Date: 3/31/2010 9:00:55 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > > > Some time back the discussion included a question about the > President's > visit to Pakistan. > > > > I located a copy and took the time to read his book. His > description about > that portion of his life is the only primary source available, > other than > public statements that he visited Pakistan on his trip to visit his > mother > in Indonesia and his father's family in Kenya. > > > > Simple answer to the thread of statements. The book says that he > went to > Africa between his work in Chicago as a Community Organizer and his > enrollment in Harvard Law School. That places it in 1988, not > 1981. It > also explains his source of money, since he had just completed five > years of > work after leaving Columbia in 1983. > > > > For the historical perspective. In 1988 the dictator General Zia > ul Haq > died in a plane crash, there were democratic elections, and Benazir > Bhutto, > the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, assumed to the office of Prime > Minister > > > > > As suggested, "Read, investigate, decide for yourself." > > > > I did. The source used by donkelly is poorly researched, or > intentionally > lying. And the statements about Afghanistan are pure fabrications. > > > > David > > > >> > >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all. I think the thread is about played out, but part with some > thought provoking incidents: Read, investigate, decide for yourself. > >>> ... > >>> President, then Senator, admitted to visiting Afghanistan in 1981, > >>> ... > >>> 1981 Pakistan and Afghanistan were closed to Americans, no American > Citizen could get a passport to travel there. > >>> ... > >>> Obama was a poor kid of 19, yet he managed to attend school and >>> visit > Afganistan and Pakistan in the same year, without visible financing? > >> ... > >>> In my opinion it is a no brainer to assume that no one would >>> spend nearly > one million dollers to seal records of their past, unless there were > multiple things in those records that had to be hidden. > >>> > >>> Where there is smoke, there is fire. You read, you decide. > >>> > >>> don > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 20:10:04 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:10:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool In-Reply-To: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <598ACF8C-F2F8-43E2-B1C0-6F094C398E05@verizon.net> This was the first sentence I wrote.... Congratulations! Will she bring pets along for Dawg and Katt too? Katie ...Then I looked at the date. I had my finger on the send button too so I'm glad I looked at the date of the wedding. My face is still red even though I caught it. On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the BIG > Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and > done > it again. > I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the > ceremony. > Nothing cut rate mind ya, just don't stiff me to much, I got enough to > worry about already. > And the Wedding Bells are set to ring again on 4/1/2011... give or > take. > you'll come now ya hear. > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 1 21:30:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:30:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <117F1A12-A4B4-4DB6-9C6D-E73540E6CD2C@verizon.net> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <117F1A12-A4B4-4DB6-9C6D-E73540E6CD2C@verizon.net> Message-ID: JEEZE I AM TIRED OF THIS OBSESSIVE C____! On Apr 1, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I guess every hippie that went to Europe to bum around and go > hostelling in the 60's and 70's was secretly rich in your book. > > If you have relatives and you are willing to lead a life of simple > food and no typical American tourist lifestyle it was not that > expensive to travel. Kids still do it today. Especially with all the > high school exchange students. Several 'not rich' kids are trying to > figure out how to just get a round trip ticket to Germany to visit an > exchange student who came to FGHS a few years ago. They have a place > to stay and they can pitch in a bit for food. They don't need a lot > to just visit. And plane tickets do go on sale if you are flexible > and willing to fly red eye and change a lot of times. > > So maybe he didn't lie in his book. > > Katie > > > On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> >> >> The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time >> he was a >> freshman at Occidental. >> >> >> >> And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in >> his book. >> Nothing new there. >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> >> >> From: David Morelli >> >> Date: 3/31/2010 9:00:55 PM >> >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> >> >> Some time back the discussion included a question about the >> President's >> visit to Pakistan. >> >> >> >> I located a copy and took the time to read his book. His >> description about >> that portion of his life is the only primary source available, >> other than >> public statements that he visited Pakistan on his trip to visit his >> mother >> in Indonesia and his father's family in Kenya. >> >> >> >> Simple answer to the thread of statements. The book says that he >> went to >> Africa between his work in Chicago as a Community Organizer and his >> enrollment in Harvard Law School. That places it in 1988, not >> 1981. It >> also explains his source of money, since he had just completed five >> years of >> work after leaving Columbia in 1983. >> >> >> >> For the historical perspective. In 1988 the dictator General Zia >> ul Haq >> died in a plane crash, there were democratic elections, and Benazir >> Bhutto, >> the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, assumed to the office of Prime >> Minister >> >> >> >> >> As suggested, "Read, investigate, decide for yourself." >> >> >> >> I did. The source used by donkelly is poorly researched, or >> intentionally >> lying. And the statements about Afghanistan are pure fabrications. >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi all. I think the thread is about played out, but part with some >> thought provoking incidents: Read, investigate, decide for yourself. >> >>>> ... >> >>>> President, then Senator, admitted to visiting Afghanistan in 1981, >> >>>> ... >> >>>> 1981 Pakistan and Afghanistan were closed to Americans, no American >> Citizen could get a passport to travel there. >> >>>> ... >> >>>> Obama was a poor kid of 19, yet he managed to attend school and >>>> visit >> Afganistan and Pakistan in the same year, without visible financing? >> >>> ... >> >>>> In my opinion it is a no brainer to assume that no one would >>>> spend nearly >> one million dollers to seal records of their past, unless there were >> multiple things in those records that had to be hidden. >> >>>> >> >>>> Where there is smoke, there is fire. You read, you decide. >> >>>> >> >>>> don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet__________________ >> _ >> ____________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 22:12:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:12:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <23A3A168-49D4-4E71-8BA6-B03544287D94@verizon.net> I will stand corrected. The President said that he had been to Pakistan. His office issued statements that Obama visited a friend in Pakistan and his mother in Indonesia between attending Occidental College and Columbia University. Other sources say that his mother was in Pakistan in the 1987-1992 time period working for a U.S. aid agency. The book only referenced his visit to Africa between Community Organizing and Harvard Law School. I combined the two. My error. Personally, I expect that press release was wrong. He had the time and money in 1988, not 1981. David On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time he was a freshman at Occidental. > > And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in his book. Nothing new there. > > Don From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 1 22:21:48 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:21:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time > he was a freshman at Occidental. > > And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in > his book. > > Nothing new there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And nothing new about your continued flogging of this dead horse. While the years in question don't match what David asserts from his reading [edit: I just noticed his more recent reply], the matter has been thoroughly refuted. http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/08/berg-complainta.html It debunks Berg's claims (which is the fuel for your fire, apparently, whether you realize it or not) and shows them to be baseless, devoid of fact, and ineffectual. Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 23:11:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:11:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> Message-ID: Nice site. David On Apr 1, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > ... > http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/08/berg-complainta.html > > Jeff From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 07:41:06 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:41:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some more links Message-ID: <000001cad272$8a96be00$9fc43a00$@net> Another view of things in the group lately. http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/25/they-dont-call-it-the-lame stream-media-for-nothing/?utm_source=feedburner &utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bernardgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg. com%29 Something ugly happened the other day outside the Capitol in Washington just before the vote on healthcare reform. http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/28/extra-extra-libs-care-abou t-civility/?utm_source=feedburner &utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bernardgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg. com%29 and http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/30/attention-all-bigots-thats -right-you/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Berna rdgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg.com%29 From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 08:38:41 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:38:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> Message-ID: Excellent! A remarkable amount of research and labor went into this compendium. Of course, it is unfortunate that this much work should even have been necessary, concerning matters that were already established. On Apr 1, 2010, at 11:11 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Nice site. > > David > > On Apr 1, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> Don, >> ... >> http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/08/berg- >> complainta.html >> >> Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 08:56:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:56:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some more links In-Reply-To: <000001cad272$8a96be00$9fc43a00$@net> References: <000001cad272$8a96be00$9fc43a00$@net> Message-ID: Interesting-- particularly the public responses! There are, surprisingly, a lot of thoughtful people who still have the time and patience to submit measured and analytical responses to these sites (particularly Goldberg's). These responses are mainly notable for their lack of name-calling. Whenever I read a comment, or even an article, which relies heavily on name-calling ("lamestream," "Dumboma," or "Liberals=Socialists") I strongly suspect that the writer is appealing to fear, prejudice and ignorance because he is trying to distract attention from a very weak or contradictory case. Obviously, a LOT of other people have also come to this conclusion. On Apr 2, 2010, at 7:41 AM, Steven wrote: > Another view of things in the group lately. > > http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/25/they-dont-call-it- > the-lame > stream-media-for-nothing/?utm_source=feedburner > it-the-lam > estream-media-for-nothing/? > utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaig > n=Feed%3A+Bernardgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg.com%29> > &utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bernardgoldbergcom+% > 28BernardGoldberg. > com%29 > > > > Something ugly happened the other day outside the Capitol in > Washington just > before the vote on healthcare reform. > > > > http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/28/extra-extra-libs- > care-abou > t-civility/?utm_source=feedburner > care-abo > ut-civility/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed > %3A+Bern > ardgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg.com%29> > &utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bernardgoldbergcom+% > 28BernardGoldberg. > com%29 > > > > and > > > > http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/content/2010/03/30/attention-all- > bigots-thats > -right-you/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed% > 3A+Berna > rdgoldbergcom+%28BernardGoldberg.com%29 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 09:02:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:02:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> I don't know Berg Jeff so have zero to add to that reference. I do see that some formerly debunked stories are making their way back with teeth. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 04/01/10 22:22:01 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > The president said at age 19 he went to Pakistan. At the same time > he was a freshman at Occidental. > > And he was not rich, so someone paid his way. So maybe he lied in > his book. > > Nothing new there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And nothing new about your continued flogging of this dead horse. While the years in question don't match what David asserts from his reading [edit: I just noticed his more recent reply], the matter has been thoroughly refuted. http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/08/berg-complainta.html It debunks Berg's claims (which is the fuel for your fire, apparently, whether you realize it or not) and shows them to be baseless, devoid of fact, and ineffectual. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/5f5950eb/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 09:05:32 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:05:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool & Used Car In-Reply-To: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> Good one, Hoss! Incidentally (and this is NOT a joke) does anyone here know of a good dependable used car for sale? I need a sturdy Japanese model, five to 10 years old, station wagon, van or pickup OK, to replace the old '87 Toyoduh, which has accumulated too many little malfunctions to be trusted any longer. Walt On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the BIG > Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and > done > it again. > I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the > ceremony. > Nothing cut rate mind ya, just don't stiff me to much, I got enough to > worry about already. > And the Wedding Bells are set to ring again on 4/1/2011... give or > take. > you'll come now ya hear. > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 2 09:10:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:10:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Easter Greeting For You Message-ID: <4244-4BB616FA-643@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/Easter4.html Good day all... >From the looks of it this morning ole petre rabbit is going to either need ski's or a snowboard. At approx 0630 the mountain had a light dusting of snow and it is still a few small flakes falling now and then. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/2c777aae/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 2 09:24:53 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:24:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool & Used Car In-Reply-To: <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BB61A55.9040807@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6842344c/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 2 09:26:10 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:26:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool & Used Car In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:05:32 -0700 Message-ID: <4241-4BB61AA2-803@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> lookE Katie, another taker, are ya keeping track? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/e5f07ea2/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 2 09:29:27 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:29:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool & Used Car In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:24:53 -0700 Message-ID: <4244-4BB61B67-675@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> bob asked..PS: Hey, OleHoss, haven't heard from you. Did you use somebody else??? Enquiring minds would like to know!! Use anyone else for what?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6e9a06a9/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 2 09:29:59 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:29:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know Berg Jeff so have zero to add to that reference. > > I do see that some formerly debunked stories are making their way > back with teeth. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm pretty sure I don't even care what they are. Since that page was published in 2008, I'm sure any stories there that are "making their way back with teeth" have long since been debunked as well. You sure seem to spend an inordinate amount of time aggrandizing trivial minutia. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 09:34:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:34:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Easter Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <4244-4BB616FA-643@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <4244-4BB616FA-643@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <960F6E7D-8785-4EE2-A41D-B30724C68916@teleport.com> On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:10 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/Easter4.html > Good day all... >> From the looks of it this morning ole petre rabbit is going to either > need ski's or a snowboard. Down here in the valley, ol' Pete would need swim fins and a snorkel! > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 2 09:40:06 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Message-ID: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/ccc3ba58/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ewlogo-print.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/ccc3ba58/attachment.jpg From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 09:42:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Used Car In-Reply-To: <4BB61A55.9040807@jurislex.com> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> <4BB61A55.9040807@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <2B055B9A-234A-4D0A-B1F7-990F80A26673@teleport.com> On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Walt, if you have any inclination to go American, my wife's father > has a very nice Ford Focus for sale. If you are interested, I will > get you the full details. > > bob Thanks, Bob, but that model gets rather bad marks in Consumer Reports when compared to the Japanese. I'd like to get something I could drive for 20 years, like the old one. Walt > > > PS: Hey, OleHoss, haven't heard from you. Did you use somebody > else?? Enquiring minds would like to know!! b > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/2/2010 9:05 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >> Good one, Hoss! >> >> Incidentally (and this is NOT a joke) does anyone here know of a good >> dependable used car for sale? >> I need a sturdy Japanese model, five to 10 years old, station wagon, >> van or pickup OK, to replace the old '87 Toyoduh, which has >> accumulated too many little malfunctions to be trusted any longer. >> Walt >> >> On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: >>> I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the BIG >>> Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and >>> done >>> it again. >>> I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the >>> ceremony. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 09:47:06 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:47:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <282591BD-FBB9-491C-9CF8-5C534ED7C527@teleport.com> Some people apparently have WAY too much time on their hands, and way too little room in their minds... On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's another little note that shows that strange connotations of > words lead to even stranger results ! ! > > bob "I say what I mean, and I mean what I say" browning > > "Alice > It would be so nice if something made sense for a change." > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Published Online: April 2, 2010 > Utah Parents Dispute School's Use of 'Democracy' > > By The Associated Press > Salt Lake City > A growing group of Utah County parents is challenging a school > district's use of a word dating back to ancient Greece: democracy. > > They say Alpine School District's usage of the word in its mission > statement is historically inaccurate and an endorsement of > socialist ideas. > > "It would be better if their mission statement didn't have a > political message in it and focus(ed) instead on academics," said > Highland resident Oak Norton, a 40-year-old accountant who founded > Utah's Republic, a group petitioning the State Office of Education > to place a greater emphasis in school curriculum on a "proper > constitutional education." > > Some parents are calling for the district to scrap its phrase, > "Educating all students to ensure the future of our democracy" in > favor of wording that reflects the country's history as a republic. > > The statement has been around for five years and rising frustration > with the federal government could be behind some of the complaints, > said school district spokeswoman Rhonda Bromley. > > "People are getting caught up on that word, but it's not a > political statement," Bromley said. > > After recent board meetings in which parents laid out their > position, Bromley said the board will reevaluate the statement this > summer. Bromley said that even if it replaces or reworks the > wording, the school won't abandon its core values. > > "A lot of people just say just change the word democracy to > republic. But as far as the focus, that's not going to change," > Bromley said. > > That focus, however, is what some parents say they had a problem > with in the first place. > > The disagreement started when Susan Schnell, 46, was visiting the > district's professional development center in early February > regarding the home schooling of her daughter. She came across a > banner-size slogan reading: "Enculturating the young into a social > and political democracy." The sentence is one of the district's > four tenets embodying its educational mission. > > "The statement made my eyebrows rise because 'enculturating' is not > a word that is commonly used and I had to look it up in three > different dictionaries to find it," Schnell said. > > The combination of words in the sentence didn't sit well with her. > > "What happened to raising good citizens? That's not what that said. > And when you look up social democracy, that's kind of scary," > Schnell said. > > She started exploring the school district's Web site, where she > came across the democracy-driven mission statement as well as a > link to an essay entitled, "America: Republic or Democracy?" In it > the author refers to the founding fathers as "predatory elite," > which Schnell found offensive. > > Schnell sent out a few e-mails and the subject quickly went viral, > with parents showing up at school board meetings in droves. The > district has since removed the link. > > Schnell said she's not nitpicking over semantics, but simply wants > the district to pick more neutral language. > > "My higher purpose is for this district not to put up a politically > charged mission statement or motto." > > Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 09:50:54 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:50:54 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other countries. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 10:00:35 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:00:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Used Car References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> <4BB61A55.9040807@jurislex.com> <2B055B9A-234A-4D0A-B1F7-990F80A26673@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BB622A6.00001A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> My Celica Supra is a late 1978 model, 252,000 miles on it and still running strong. I am afraid to sell it because I might pay a lot more for, and get a lot less from, a newer model. The Toyota engines, four and six cylinders, do seem to hold up well, and with relatively low prices for routine maintenance. Dave's Auto keep it running, and stopping, very well. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/2/2010 9:42:09 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Used Car On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Walt, if you have any inclination to go American, my wife's father > has a very nice Ford Focus for sale. If you are interested, I will > get you the full details. > > bob Thanks, Bob, but that model gets rather bad marks in Consumer Reports when compared to the Japanese. I'd like to get something I could drive for 20 years, like the old one. Walt > > > PS: Hey, OleHoss, haven't heard from you. Did you use somebody > else?? Enquiring minds would like to know!! b > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/2/2010 9:05 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >> Good one, Hoss! >> >> Incidentally (and this is NOT a joke) does anyone here know of a good >> dependable used car for sale? >> I need a sturdy Japanese model, five to 10 years old, station wagon, >> van or pickup OK, to replace the old '87 Toyoduh, which has >> accumulated too many little malfunctions to be trusted any longer. >> Walt >> >> On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: >>> I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the BIG >>> Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and >>> done >>> it again. >>> I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the >>> ceremony. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/4b3c1b91/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 10:02:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:02:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BB62323.00001D.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Russia is supposed by many to also be a Republic. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 4/2/2010 9:51:25 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other countries. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/19826409/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 2 10:13:58 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:13:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool In-Reply-To: <598ACF8C-F2F8-43E2-B1C0-6F094C398E05@verizon.net> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <598ACF8C-F2F8-43E2-B1C0-6F094C398E05@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BB625D6.7090906@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6412dc11/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 10:18:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:18:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> When people say things like, "this science is a done deal" or "that theory is thoroughly debunked" I get very suspicious. A variety of sources say the group surrounding the president are just trying to help our republic and our people. How many people really know whom these people are that are trying to help us what their politics really are, and how they are supporting the values emitting from the presidential mouth? Here is a spot of education that, cut any way one wants, does not support the American way. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/2/2010 9:32:12 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know Berg Jeff so have zero to add to that reference. > > I do see that some formerly debunked stories are making their way > back with teeth. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm pretty sure I don't even care what they are. Since that page was published in 2008, I'm sure any stories there that are "making their way back with teeth" have long since been debunked as well. You sure seem to spend an inordinate amount of time aggrandizing trivial minutia. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/d58ea491/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/d58ea491/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/d58ea491/attachment.ksh From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 10:27:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:27:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> Good point. Yet the legislators who represent us (republic) are supposed to be elected in a democratic fashion. On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Steve wrote: > We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other > countries. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 2 10:30:02 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:30:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01bb01cad28a$21049a30$630dce90$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > When people say things like, "this science is a done deal" or "that > theory is thoroughly debunked" I get very suspicious. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Doubting is good. Clinging for dear life to the opposing view under the pretense of doubt, is not. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > A variety of sources say the group surrounding the president are > just trying to help our republic and our people. > > How many people really know whom these people are that are trying > to help us, what their politics really are, and how they are > supporting the values emitting from the presidential mouth? > > Here is a spot of education that, cut any way one wants, does not > support the American way. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I suppose you got this from God & Country. As none of the *opinions* in your attachment cite any evidence to support their claims, I'm inclined to do nothing more than skim them and summarily dismiss them. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 10:39:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:39:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Used Car In-Reply-To: <4BB622A6.00001A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <24119-4BB547D8-880@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <04DEE93E-44A6-4DDB-A0CD-B0047849970D@teleport.com> <4BB61A55.9040807@jurislex.com> <2B055B9A-234A-4D0A-B1F7-990F80A26673@teleport.com> <4BB622A6.00001A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Right on all points, Don! I'd keep my old Toyoduh forever, but for the fact that its latest idiosyncrasies will be more expensive to repair than the car would be worth as spare parts. Also, as soon as I repaired them, something else would go gunnybag. I drove my ancient Dodge Slant Six until you could see the road going by through the floorboards-- it was a wonder for durability! But eventually it developed transmission and oil-burning problems, and I had to let it go. I think it is significant that every car I ever bought for "style" or vanity became such a pain in the neck that I felt only relief and happiness when I sold them. The mundane but dependable workhorses I grieved like a lost pet. WW On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:00 AM, donkelly wrote: > My Celica Supra is a late 1978 model, 252,000 miles on it and still > running > strong. I am afraid to sell it because I might pay a lot more for, > and get a > lot less from, a newer model. > > The Toyota engines, four and six cylinders, do seem to hold up > well, and > with relatively low prices for routine maintenance. Dave's Auto > keep it > running, and stopping, very well. > > Donkelly > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/2/2010 9:42:09 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Used Car > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Walt, if you have any inclination to go American, my wife's father >> has a very nice Ford Focus for sale. If you are interested, I will >> get you the full details. >> >> bob > > Thanks, Bob, but that model gets rather bad marks in Consumer Reports > when compared to the Japanese. I'd like to get something I could > drive for 20 years, like the old one. > Walt >> >> >> PS: Hey, OleHoss, haven't heard from you. Did you use somebody >> else?? Enquiring minds would like to know!! b >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> On 4/2/2010 9:05 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>> Good one, Hoss! >>> >>> Incidentally (and this is NOT a joke) does anyone here know of a >>> good >>> dependable used car for sale? >>> I need a sturdy Japanese model, five to 10 years old, station wagon, >>> van or pickup OK, to replace the old '87 Toyoduh, which has >>> accumulated too many little malfunctions to be trusted any longer. >>> Walt >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: >>>> I think that the Judge, Mr Bliss, and Miss "B" will remember the >>>> BIG >>>> Mistake that I made some years ago, well folks, an OleHoss has and >>>> done >>>> it again. >>>> I sure hope the Judge gives an Ole Time Grove Nut deal on the >>>> ceremony. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 10:40:56 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:40:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle April Fool & Used Car In-Reply-To: <4241-4BB61AA2-803@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <4241-4BB61AA2-803@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <75BDBF0B-232E-42C0-9C8D-3B79086AC7A1@verizon.net> Here's a funny ending to your joke. My daughter now has a serious boyfriend and about 10:00 last night she called me to tell me that he had flown to her college in Missouri and proposed to her. While I otherwise would have believed her (he is a very nice guy and I figure someday he will propose to her) because of your post I had connected marriage proposals and April Fools Day. So, you saved me from being taken in again. Bet you didn't expect that to happen because I sure didn't. Katie On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:26 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > lookE Katie, another taker, are ya keeping track? > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 10:42:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:42:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB62323.00001D.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BB62323.00001D.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:02 AM, donkelly wrote: > > Russia is supposed by many to also be a Republic. Da. Is Glorious Pipple's Republic, and if you not beliffing it, we got ways uf making you beliffing it. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Steve > Date: 4/2/2010 9:51:25 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other > countries. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 10:43:09 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:43:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3D4C5108D79F4C268A97A4C2F63F8F05@EdDaviePC> Just curious ... What is the American Way? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:18 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs When people say things like, "this science is a done deal" or "that theory is thoroughly debunked" I get very suspicious. A variety of sources say the group surrounding the president are just trying to help our republic and our people. How many people really know whom these people are that are trying to help us, what their politics really are, and how they are supporting the values emitting from the presidential mouth? Here is a spot of education that, cut any way one wants, does not support the American way. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/2/2010 9:32:12 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know Berg Jeff so have zero to add to that reference. > > I do see that some formerly debunked stories are making their way > back with teeth. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm pretty sure I don't even care what they are. Since that page was published in 2008, I'm sure any stories there that are "making their way back with teeth" have long since been debunked as well. You sure seem to spend an inordinate amount of time aggrandizing trivial minutia. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6488d133/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 10:49:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:49:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a democracy. Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike the electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. But still democratic in both systems. Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/2/2010 10:28:05 AM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Good point. Yet the legislators who represent us (republic) are supposed to be elected in a democratic fashion. On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Steve wrote: > We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other > countries. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/0dd5fb1b/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/0dd5fb1b/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/0dd5fb1b/attachment-0001.ksh From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 11:04:12 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:04:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people in a democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a democracy. Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike the electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. But still democratic in both systems. Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. Don From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 11:57:41 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:57:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <9D8A2AE3E2D6443AA8FB6093A4C89AB7@gerianehzkfhvy> I'm with Alice. Where were these people educated????? ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 9:40 AM Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Here's another little note that shows that strange connotations of words lead to even stranger results ! ! bob "I say what I mean, and I mean what I say" browning "Alice It would be so nice if something made sense for a change." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Published Online: April 2, 2010 Utah Parents Dispute School's Use of 'Democracy' By The Associated Press Salt Lake City A growing group of Utah County parents is challenging a school district's use of a word dating back to ancient Greece: democracy. They say Alpine School District's usage of the word in its mission statement is historically inaccurate and an endorsement of socialist ideas. "It would be better if their mission statement didn't have a political message in it and focus(ed) instead on academics," said Highland resident Oak Norton, a 40-year-old accountant who founded Utah's Republic, a group petitioning the State Office of Education to place a greater emphasis in school curriculum on a "proper constitutional education." Some parents are calling for the district to scrap its phrase, "Educating all students to ensure the future of our democracy" in favor of wording that reflects the country's history as a republic. The statement has been around for five years and rising frustration with the federal government could be behind some of the complaints, said school district spokeswoman Rhonda Bromley. "People are getting caught up on that word, but it's not a political statement," Bromley said. After recent board meetings in which parents laid out their position, Bromley said the board will reevaluate the statement this summer. Bromley said that even if it replaces or reworks the wording, the school won't abandon its core values. "A lot of people just say just change the word democracy to republic. But as far as the focus, that's not going to change," Bromley said. That focus, however, is what some parents say they had a problem with in the first place. The disagreement started when Susan Schnell, 46, was visiting the district's professional development center in early February regarding the home schooling of her daughter. She came across a banner-size slogan reading: "Enculturating the young into a social and political democracy." The sentence is one of the district's four tenets embodying its educational mission. "The statement made my eyebrows rise because 'enculturating' is not a word that is commonly used and I had to look it up in three different dictionaries to find it," Schnell said. The combination of words in the sentence didn't sit well with her. "What happened to raising good citizens? That's not what that said. And when you look up social democracy, that's kind of scary," Schnell said. She started exploring the school district's Web site, where she came across the democracy-driven mission statement as well as a link to an essay entitled, "America: Republic or Democracy?" In it the author refers to the founding fathers as "predatory elite," which Schnell found offensive. Schnell sent out a few e-mails and the subject quickly went viral, with parents showing up at school board meetings in droves. The district has since removed the link. Schnell said she's not nitpicking over semantics, but simply wants the district to pick more neutral language. "My higher purpose is for this district not to put up a politically charged mission statement or motto." Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6aaf1d41/attachment.jpe From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 12:03:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:03:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <9D8A2AE3E2D6443AA8FB6093A4C89AB7@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <4BB63F67.00004A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Berkeley might be a good guess. Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Date: 4/2/2010 11:57:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . I'm with Alice. Where were these people educated????? ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 9:40 AM Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Here's another little note that shows that strange connotations of words lead to even stranger results ! ! bob "I say what I mean, and I mean what I say" browning "Alice It would be so nice if something made sense for a change." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Published Online: April 2, 2010 Utah Parents Dispute School's Use of 'Democracy' By The Associated Press Salt Lake City A growing group of Utah County parents is challenging a school district's use of a word dating back to ancient Greece: democracy. They say Alpine School District's usage of the word in its mission statement is historically inaccurate and an endorsement of socialist ideas. "It would be better if their mission statement didn't have a political message in it and focus(ed) instead on academics," said Highland resident Oak Norton, a 40-year-old accountant who founded Utah's Republic, a group petitioning the State Office of Education to place a greater emphasis in school curriculum on a "proper constitutional education." Some parents are calling for the district to scrap its phrase, "Educating all students to ensure the future of our democracy" in favor of wording that reflects the country's history as a republic. The statement has been around for five years and rising frustration with the federal government could be behind some of the complaints, said school district spokeswoman Rhonda Bromley. "People are getting caught up on that word, but it's not a political statement," Bromley said. After recent board meetings in which parents laid out their position, Bromley said the board will reevaluate the statement this summer. Bromley said that even if it replaces or reworks the wording, the school won't abandon its core values. "A lot of people just say just change the word democracy to republic. But as far as the focus, that's not going to change," Bromley said. That focus, however, is what some parents say they had a problem with in the first place. The disagreement started when Susan Schnell, 46, was visiting the district's professional development center in early February regarding the home schooling of her daughter. She came across a banner-size slogan reading: Enculturating the young into a social and political democracy." The sentence is one of the district's four tenets embodying its educational mission. "The statement made my eyebrows rise because 'enculturating' is not a word that is commonly used and I had to look it up in three different dictionaries to find it," Schnell said. The combination of words in the sentence didn't sit well with her. "What happened to raising good citizens? That's not what that said. And when you look up social democracy, that's kind of scary," Schnell said. She started exploring the school district's Web site, where she came across the democracy-driven mission statement as well as a link to an essay entitled, "America: Republic or Democracy?" In it the author refers to the founding fathers as "predatory elite," which Schnell found offensive. Schnell sent out a few e-mails and the subject quickly went viral, with parents showing up at school board meetings in droves. The district has since removed the link. Schnell said she's not nitpicking over semantics, but simply wants the district to pick more neutral language. "My higher purpose is for this district not to put up a politically charged mission statement or motto." Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/77f3ccea/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 13:55:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:55:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies References: <4BB50A06.2060507@gmail.com> <4E33632D-6491-4DE0-9165-EB94F3BFD813@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BB659B0.000058.02556@DON-B2514E06367> People are lying about the Tea Parties being racist, violent, unspeakable things, yet their marches have been covered twenty ways west (and east) and it clear that the marchers are multi-cultural. I think it likely we have all seen that. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/1/2010 2:19:23 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies Well, as one of the commenters below the article said, "consider the source." I note this site is liberally sprinkled with endearing little labels like "horrible liberal liars" and "state-owned media" and "anti-military Jew-hating conservative-hating Huffington Post," and adorned with ads for a "tax Revolt" All that makes me mildly-- just mildly, mind you-- suspicious that the "Gateway Pundit" might be just a LEETLE bit undependable as a source of news. WW On Apr 1, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I personally despise racist and homophobic slurs, it appears that the > claims against the Tea Party members was false: > > http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/state-run-media-now- > reporting-racist-propaganda-from-huffington-post-as-fact/ > > Also it seems that violence is not just limited to any one side of the > debate: > > http://www.prisonplanet.com/pro-obamacare-thugs-not-tea-party- > activists-are-the-real-violent-extremists.html > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Dear Friend, >> >> It's been a little more than a week since Tea Party protesters hurled >> racial and homophobic slurs and spat at members of Congress. I don't >> want >> to repeat the language they used. Their despicable statements were >> widely >> reported in the media, and be assured this was no isolated or fringe >> event. >> >> What the Tea Party protesters said was beyond defensible. But >> that's not >> even the worst of it. The Tea Party movement is inciting violent acts >> targeting Democrats who voted to support the health care reform bill. >> >> Democrats and Republicans alike must immediately address this >> atmosphere >> of violence targeting our elected officials. You would think this >> would be >> uncontroversial in the wake of protesters shouting the "N word" in >> the >> halls of Congress. But shockingly the Republican National >> Committee has >> refused to endorse a bi-partisan "civility" statement that would >> send a >> message to the protesters. >> >> Join me in demanding that Republican leaders stop turning a blind >> eye to >> violence and hate before it gets out of control and someone gets >> hurt. >> Click the link below to add your name. >> >> http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/hate_gop/?r_by=8486-1455436- >> jduZWBx&rc=mailto1 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 14:40:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:40:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net> Message-ID: <7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com> I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. WW On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: > Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people in a > democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. > > > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > > > > Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a > democracy. > Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike the > electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. > > > > But still democratic in both systems. > > > > Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 15:15:05 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:15:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... Message-ID: The summer is almost upon us - despite what the weather is today and I am filling out a form for my daughter's summer activity. I tend to actually read the "Release of Liability" forms but they are increasingly irritating. I understand that we live in a litigious era, and these organizations are only trying to protect themselves, but come on... The latest form states: .....I release and agree to indemnify and hold harmless the Releasees from any and all liabilities incident to my minor child's involvement or participation in these programs as provided above, EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES, to the fullest extent permitted by law. (note: the caps are not mine - they are actually caps on the form) Also on the form in caps again: I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT. What is the value in these forms anyways - has anything changed since every organization requires you to sign a form? Have the rate of lawsuits decreased? I understand an organization would want to inform parents of the risks in which they are allowing their children to participate. But wouldn't a letter describing the risks be better than threatening the parents? What do other people think about this stuff? Sometimes I think I'll refuse to sign another one of these waivers, but all it does is penalize my daughter. Marian From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 15:12:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:12:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies In-Reply-To: <4BB659B0.000058.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB50A06.2060507@gmail.com> <4E33632D-6491-4DE0-9165-EB94F3BFD813@teleport.com> <4BB659B0.000058.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Well, I've only been at two tea-party events myself (meant to be town- hall meetings at McMinnville and Scapoose), and in both cases the tea- partyers seemed rude, loudly intolerant of opposing opinions, and in a few cases actually threatening. They were all white as far as I could see, but they were "multi-cultural" in that their causes were all over the map. I saw one lady protesting Eugenics, a man protesting the Trilateral, no end of Birthers and conspirationists, everything but the Saucerians. Some unkind people have compared the movement to a "circular firing squad." If the Repubs try to absorb them, more power to 'em! WW On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:55 PM, donkelly wrote: > People are lying about the Tea Parties being racist, violent, > unspeakable > things, yet their marches have been covered twenty ways west (and > east) and > it clear that the marchers are multi-cultural. > > I think it likely we have all seen that. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/1/2010 2:19:23 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Petition: GOP hate intensifies > > Well, as one of the commenters below the article said, "consider the > source." I note this site is liberally sprinkled with endearing > little labels like "horrible liberal liars" and "state-owned media" > and "anti-military Jew-hating conservative-hating Huffington Post," > and adorned with ads for a "tax Revolt" > All that makes me mildly-- just mildly, mind you-- suspicious that > the "Gateway Pundit" might be just a LEETLE bit undependable as a > source of news. > WW > On Apr 1, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> I personally despise racist and homophobic slurs, it appears that the >> claims against the Tea Party members was false: >> >> http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/state-run-media-now- >> reporting-racist-propaganda-from-huffington-post-as-fact/ >> >> Also it seems that violence is not just limited to any one side of >> the >> debate: >> >> http://www.prisonplanet.com/pro-obamacare-thugs-not-tea-party- >> activists-are-the-real-violent-extremists.html >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Dear Friend, >>> >>> It's been a little more than a week since Tea Party protesters >>> hurled >>> racial and homophobic slurs and spat at members of Congress. I don't >>> want >>> to repeat the language they used. Their despicable statements were >>> widely >>> reported in the media, and be assured this was no isolated or fringe >>> event. >>> >>> What the Tea Party protesters said was beyond defensible. But >>> that's not >>> even the worst of it. The Tea Party movement is inciting violent >>> acts >>> targeting Democrats who voted to support the health care reform >>> bill. >>> >>> Democrats and Republicans alike must immediately address this >>> atmosphere >>> of violence targeting our elected officials. You would think this >>> would be >>> uncontroversial in the wake of protesters shouting the "N word" in >>> the >>> halls of Congress. But shockingly the Republican National >>> Committee has >>> refused to endorse a bi-partisan "civility" statement that would >>> send a >>> message to the protesters. >>> >>> Join me in demanding that Republican leaders stop turning a blind >>> eye to >>> violence and hate before it gets out of control and someone gets >>> hurt. >>> Click the link below to add your name. >>> >>> http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/hate_gop/?r_by=8486-1455436- >>> jduZWBx&rc=mailto1 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 15:25:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:25:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... References: Message-ID: <4BB66EE2.000068.02556@DON-B2514E06367> The term. "without enducement" in it'self smacks of an enducement. Yet we need to let our kids have fun, go to camp, play soccer, whatever, during the summer. If we have a lawyer on board, perhaps that phraseology can be explained to us-----even more, perhaps the why can be explained to us. It does on the face of it seem excessive. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/2/2010 3:11:34 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... The summer is almost upon us - despite what the weather is today and I am filling out a form for my daughter's summer activity. I tend to actually read the "Release of Liability" forms but they are increasingly irritating. I understand that we live in a litigious era, and these organizations are only trying to protect themselves, but come on... The latest form states: .....I release and agree to indemnify and hold harmless the Releasees from any and all liabilities incident to my minor child's involvement or participation in these programs as provided above, EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES, to the fullest extent permitted by law. (note: the caps are not mine - they are actually caps on the form) Also on the form in caps again: I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT. What is the value in these forms anyways - has anything changed since every organization requires you to sign a form? Have the rate of lawsuits decreased? I understand an organization would want to inform parents of the risks in which they are allowing their children to participate. But wouldn't a letter describing the risks be better than threatening the parents? What do other people think about this stuff? Sometimes I think I'll refuse to sign another one of these waivers, but all it does is penalize my daughter. Marian _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/fdf25755/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 15:43:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:43:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net> <7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections would not discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won elections with less than majority vote. On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by fraud, where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be affected by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black Panthers, or CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN swiping ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. WW On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: > Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people in a > democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. > > > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > > > > Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a > democracy. > Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike the > electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. > > > > But still democratic in both systems. > > > > Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/96b18706/attachment.gif From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:14:01 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:14:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> References: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> George Orwell summed it up pretty well "He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls present, controls the past." I'm not an expert on most of the topics, but a good read is The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn. He goes into detail of how incompetent Franklin Roosevelt was with managing money and budgets, as well as how almost all of the new deal programs failed. As for communists in the government, growing up in Queens my next door neighbor, Mr. Vego, was a Hungarian immigrant who came to the United States in the 1940's. He worked in the late 40's for the US Government in Washington DC. Mr. Vego, and his wife, were members of the communist party. They were open about it, their house was kind of creepy with all of the Stalin pins and other communist artwork. You need to hear both sides of any situation in order to make a valid assessment. The truth will always rise to the top, you can't block out one side if you don't like what they are saying, even if it is false. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > It is my hope that the following will go through to G'net and not get > caught up in its filters, since every right thinking American (and > probably the left thinking, too) should be absolutely appalled by the > following. It certainly reminds me of the efforts to rehabilitate > Stalin's memory, and has just about as much real scholarship behind it. > > Please, folks, make sure your children and grandchildren are given the > opportunity to read and learn the real history of this country, not > just the fairy tales made up by the far left and the far right, or by > those nostalgic for some sugarcoated fairy tale with no basis in reality!! > > bob "don't tell me a fairy tale, grampa!!" browning > > (PS: And to think I took a shot at Newsmax the other day. In this > fight they come off as paragons of virtue!!! > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Some right-wingers ignore facts as they rewrite U.S. history > > By Steven Thomma, McClatchy Newspapers > Thu Apr 1, 2010 > > WASHINGTON ? The right is rewriting history. > > The most ballyhooed effort is under way in Texas , where conservatives > have pushed the state school board to rewrite guidelines, downplaying > Thomas Jefferson in one high school course, playing up such > conservatives as Phyllis Schlafly and the Heritage Foundation and > challenging the idea that the Founding Fathers wanted to separate > church and state. > > The effort reaches far beyond one state, however. > > In articles and speeches, on radio and TV, conservatives are working > to redefine major turning points and influential figures in American > history, often to slam liberals, promote Republicans and reinforce > their positions in today's politics. > > The Jamestown settlers? Socialists. Founding Father Alexander Hamilton > ? Ill-informed professors made up all that bunk about him advocating a > strong central government. > > Theodore Roosevelt ? Another socialist. Franklin D. Roosevelt ? Not > only did he not end the Great Depression, he also created it. > > Joe McCarthy ? Liberals lied about him. He was a hero. > > Some conservatives say it's a long-overdue swing of the pendulum after > years of liberal efforts to define history on their terms in > classrooms and in popular culture. > > "We are adding balance," Texas school board member Don McLeroy said. > "History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left." > > The effort in Texas and nationwide is controversial, however, even > among many conservatives. McLeroy was defeated in a recent primary > after he led the campaign for a more conservative version of history, > a defeat that the National Review , a leading conservative organ, > called "sensible." > > While even some conservative intellectuals say that some of the > revisionist history is simply wrong, at the core, the effort reflects > the ever-changing view of history, which is always subject to revision > thanks to new information or new ways of looking at things, and often > is viewed through a political lens. > > "History in the popular world is always a political football," said > Alan Brinkley , a historian at Columbia University . "The right is > unusually mobilized at the moment." > > "Part of the tide of history is that it's contested terrain," said > Fritz Fischer , a historian at the University of Northern Colorado and > the chairman of the National Council for History Education . "We > should always be arguing and questioning what happened in the past." > > It's not just historians who contest history, however. It's also > politicians and pundits. > > The left has done it. > > Fischer cited the case of controversial former University of Colorado > professor Ward Churchill , whose essay claiming that the 9/11 > terrorist attacks were the fruit of illegal U.S. policies became a > cause celebre. Fischer said Churchill "ignored a lot of evidence and > made some up to promulgate a particular political belief." > > Now, it's the right. > > "There's clearly a political impetus behind this that connects to the > issues of today," Fischer said, such as labeling President Barack > Obama a socialist. "But when history is ignored to do it, that can be > dangerous." > > Here are five recent examples of new conservative versions of history: > > *JAMESTOWN * > > Reaching for an example of how bad socialism can be, former House of > Representatives Majority Leader Dick Armey , R- Texas , said recently > that the people who settled Jamestown, Va. , in 1607 were socialists > and that their ideology doomed them. > > " Jamestown colony, when it was first founded as a socialist venture, > dang near failed with everybody dead and dying in the snow," he said > in a speech March 15 at the National Press Club . > > It was a good, strong story, helping Armey, a former economics > professor, illustrate the dangers of socialism, the same ideology that > he and other conservatives say is at the core of Obama's agenda. > > It was not, however, true. > > The Jamestown settlement was a capitalist venture financed by the > Virginia Company of London ? a joint stock corporation ? to make a > profit. The colony nearly foundered owing to a harsh winter, brackish > water and lack of food, but reinforcements enabled it to survive. It > was never socialistic. In fact, in 1619, Jamestown planters imported > the first African slaves to the 13 colonies that later formed the > United States . > > *ALEXANDER HAMILTON * > > At the same event, Armey urged people to read the Federalist Papers as > a guide to the sentiments of the tea party movement. > > "The small-government conservative movement, which includes people who > call themselves the tea party patriots and so forth, is about the > principles of liberty as embodied in the Constitution, the > understanding of which is fleshed out if you read things like the > Federalist Papers," Armey said. > > Others such as Democrats and the news media, "people here who do not > cherish America the way we do," don't understand because "they did not > read the Federalist Papers," he said. > > A member of the audience asked Armey how the Federalist Papers could > be such a tea party manifesto when they were written largely by > Alexander Hamilton , who the questioner said "was widely regarded then > and now as an advocate of a strong central government." > > Armey ridiculed the very suggestion. > > "Widely regarded by whom?" he asked. "Today's modern, ill-informed > political science professors? . . . I just doubt that was the case, in > fact, about Hamilton." > > Hamilton, however, was an unapologetic advocate of a strong central > government, one that plays an active role in the economy and is led by > a president named for life and thus beyond the emotions of the people. > Hamilton also pushed for excise taxes and customs duties to pay down > federal debt. > > In fact, Ian Finseth said in a history written for the University of > Virginia , others at the constitutional convention "thought his > proposals went too far in strengthening the central government." > > * THEODORE ROOSEVELT * > > Theodore Roosevelt was long an icon of the Republican Party , a > dynamic leader who ushered in the Progressive era, busting trusts, > regulating robber barons, building the Panama Canal and sending the > U.S. fleet around the world announcing ascendant American power. > > Fox TV commentator Glenn Beck , however, says that Roosevelt was a > socialist whose legacy is destroying America. It started, Beck said, > with Roosevelt's admonition to the wealthy of his day to spend their > riches for the good of society. > > "We judge no man a fortune in civil life if it's honorably obtained > and well spent," Roosevelt said, according to Beck. "It's not even > enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the > community. We should permit it only to be gained so long as the > gaining represents benefit to the community." > > Actually, Roosevelt said, "We GRUDGE no man a fortune ... if it's > honorably obtained and well USED." But either way, Beck saw the threat. > > "Oh? Well, thank you," Beck said with scorn during his keynote speech > to the recent Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington . > The presidential suggestion that the wealthy of the Gilded Age should > contribute to the good of society was a clear danger that must be > condemned, Beck said. > > "Is this what the Republican Party stands for? Well, you should ask > members of the Republican Party , because this is not our founders' > idea of America. And this is the cancer that's eating at America. It > is big government; it's a socialist utopia," Beck said. > > "And we need to address it as if it is a cancer. It must be cut out of > the system because they cannot coexist. ... You must eradicate it. It > cannot coexist." > > There's no doubt that Roosevelt was a domestic policy liberal by > today's standards. In a 1910 speech in Kansas , he acknowledged that > his "New Nationalism" meant "far more active governmental interference > with social and economic conditions in this country than we have yet > had." > > The 26th president insisted, however, that he wanted the government to > guarantee opportunity, not a handout. > > "The fundamental thing to do for every man is to give him a chance to > reach a place in which he will make the greatest possible contribution > to the public welfare," he said. > > "Give him a chance, not push him up if he will not be pushed. ... Help > any man who stumbles; if he lies down, it is a poor job to try to > carry him; but if he is a worthy man, try your best to see that he > gets a chance to show the worth that is in him." > > In his autobiography three years later, Roosevelt went on to dismiss > the tenets of socialism as taught by Karl Marx as "an exploded theory." > > "Too many thoroughly well-meaning men and women in the America of > today glibly repeat and accept," he wrote, "various assumptions and > speculations by Marx and others which by the lapse of time and by > actual experiment have been shown to possess not one shred of value." > > In addition, Roosevelt didn't advocate government ownership of the > means of production, the definition of socialism. > > * FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT * > > It's long been debated how well Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal > government programs countered the Great Depression, but now a > prominent conservative has introduced the idea that Roosevelt CAUSED > the Depression. > > "FDR took office in the midst of a recession," Rep. Michele Bachmann , > R- Minn. , told the Conservative Political Action Conference in > February. "He decided to choose massive government spending and the > creation of monstrous bureaucracies. Do we detect a Democrat pattern > here in all of this? He took what was a manageable recession and > turned it into a 10-year depression." > > A year before, Bachmann went to the House floor to blame FDR and what > she called the "Hoot-Smalley" tariffs for creating the Depression. > > "The recession that FDR had to deal with wasn't as bad as the > recession (President Calvin) Coolidge had to deal with in the early > '20s," she said. > > Coolidge cut taxes and created the roaring '20s, Bachmann said. > > "FDR applied just the opposite formula: the Hoot-Smalley act, which > was a tremendous burden on tariff restrictions. And of course trade > barriers and the regulatory burden and of course tax barriers. > > "That's what we saw happen under FDR. That took a recession and blew > it into a full-scale depression. The American people suffered for > almost 10 years under that kind of thinking." > > The truth? Historians agree that tariffs hurt trade and worsened the > depression. > > However, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act ? not Hoot-Smalley ? was proposed > by two Republicans, Sen. Reed Smoot of Utah and Rep. Willis Hawley of > Oregon . A Republican House and a Republican Senate approved it. > President Herbert Hoover , a Republican, signed it into law. > > The facts also show that the country was in something far worse than a > "manageable recession" in March 1933 when Roosevelt took office. > > Stocks had lost 90 percent of their value since the crash of 1929. > Thousands of banks had failed. Unemployment reached an all-time high > of 24.9 percent just before Roosevelt was inaugurated. > > *JOE MCCARTHY * > > Sen. Joseph McCarthy , R- Wis. , burst onto the national stage in the > early 1950s with accusations that he had a list of names of known > Communists in the federal government. He didn't name them, was > censured by the Senate eventually and his name became synonymous with > witch hunts ? McCarthyism. > > Now, the end of the Cold War has opened up spy files and identified > many Communist spies who operated inside the government during the > era. Some conservatives argue that this proves not only that McCarthy > was right, but also that he was a hero and that he was smeared by > liberals, the news media and historians. > > "Almost everything about McCarthy in current history books is a lie > and will have to be revised," conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly > said. > > "Liberals had to destroy McCarthy because he exposed the entire > liberal establishment as having sheltered Soviet spies," conservative > commentator Ann Coulter said in one interview. > > "The myth of 'McCarthyism' is the greatest Orwellian fraud of our > times," she said in another. "Liberals are fanatical liars, then as > now. The portrayal of Senator Joe McCarthy as a wild-eyed demagogue > destroying innocent lives is sheer liberal hobgoblinism. ... If the > Internet, talk radio and Fox News had been around in McCarthy's day, > my book wouldn't be the first time most people would be hearing the > truth about 'McCarthyism.' " > > Yet even some prominent conservatives say that McCarthy's defenders go > too far, and that even from a conservative perspective, McCarthy was > no hero and damaged the country. > > "A dangerous movement has been growing among conservative writers to > vindicate the late Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy and his campaign to expose > Soviet spies in the U.S. government," Ronald Kessler wrote for the > conservative Web site Newsmax.com > . > > > "The FBI agents who were actually chasing those spies have told me > that McCarthy hurt their efforts because he trumped up charges, > unfairly besmirched honorable Americans and gave hunting spies a bad > name." > > Kessler said the release of secret Cold War files under the Venona > Project confirmed that there were Soviet spies in the U.S. government. > > "The problem was that the people McCarthy tarnished as Communists or > Communist sympathizers were not the real spies," Kessler wrote. > > "The cause of anti-communism, which united millions of Americans and > which gained the support of Democrats, Republicans and independents, > was undermined by Sen. Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin ," wrote William > Bennett , who was the conservative secretary of education under > President Ronald Reagan . > > "McCarthy addressed a real problem: disloyal elements within the U.S. > government. But his approach to this real problem was to cause untold > grief to the country he claimed to love," Bennett wrote in his book > "America: The Last Best Hope." > > "Worst of all, McCarthy besmirched the honorable cause of > anti-communism. He discredited legitimate efforts to counter Soviet > subversion of American institutions." > > *ON THE WEB * > > More on Jamestown > > > > Armey's speech at the National Press Club > > > > Treasury Department history of Hamilton > > > > University of Virginia on Hamilton > > > > More on the Venona Project > > > > *MORE FROM MCCLATCHY* > > Who should be at Obama's health care signing? Truman > > > > Here's the truth: 'Birther' claims are just plain nuts > > > > Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make birthers look sane > > > > > For more McClatchy politics coverage, visit Planet Washington > > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 16:35:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:35:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . References: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BB67F0F.00008A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Crazy things happen. America declared war on Germany. A man two doors around the corner, with a cyclone fence around his house, a swastika flag on his front porch, and swastikas on the gas tank of his black and red Harley, rode off one morning and never returned home. His house set empty for three years. German man next door shot his Jewish wife and turned himself in to the police. Of all ways to end a bad economy, it was unfortunate that it took a war to do it. Everyone had a job. After the war my Lockheed Engineer dad turned his skills to building houses. He couldn't build them fast enough to keep up with the demand. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/2/2010 4:14:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . George Orwell summed it up pretty well "He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls present, controls the past." I'm not an expert on most of the topics, but a good read is The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn. He goes into detail of how incompetent Franklin Roosevelt was with managing money and budgets, as well as how almost all of the new deal programs failed. As for communists in the government, growing up in Queens my next door neighbor, Mr. Vego, was a Hungarian immigrant who came to the United States in the 1940's. He worked in the late 40's for the US Government in Washington DC. Mr. Vego, and his wife, were members of the communist party. They were open about it, their house was kind of creepy with all of the Stalin pins and other communist artwork. You need to hear both sides of any situation in order to make a valid assessment. The truth will always rise to the top, you can't block out one side if you don't like what they are saying, even if it is false. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > It is my hope that the following will go through to G'net and not get > caught up in its filters, since every right thinking American (and > probably the left thinking, too) should be absolutely appalled by the > following. It certainly reminds me of the efforts to rehabilitate > Stalin's memory, and has just about as much real scholarship behind it. > > Please, folks, make sure your children and grandchildren are given the > opportunity to read and learn the real history of this country, not > just the fairy tales made up by the far left and the far right, or by > those nostalgic for some sugarcoated fairy tale with no basis in reality!! > > bob "don't tell me a fairy tale, grampa!!" browning > > (PS: And to think I took a shot at Newsmax the other day. In this > fight they come off as paragons of virtue!!! > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Some right-wingers ignore facts as they rewrite U.S. history > > By Steven Thomma, McClatchy Newspapers > Thu Apr 1, 2010 > > WASHINGTON ? The right is rewriting history. > > The most ballyhooed effort is under way in Texas , where conservatives > have pushed the state school board to rewrite guidelines, downplaying > Thomas Jefferson in one high school course, playing up such > conservatives as Phyllis Schlafly and the Heritage Foundation and > challenging the idea that the Founding Fathers wanted to separate > church and state. > > The effort reaches far beyond one state, however. > > In articles and speeches, on radio and TV, conservatives are working > to redefine major turning points and influential figures in American > history, often to slam liberals, promote Republicans and reinforce > their positions in today's politics. > > The Jamestown settlers? Socialists. Founding Father Alexander Hamilton > ? Ill-informed professors made up all that bunk about him advocating a > strong central government. > > Theodore Roosevelt ? Another socialist. Franklin D. Roosevelt ? Not > only did he not end the Great Depression, he also created it. > > Joe McCarthy ? Liberals lied about him. He was a hero. > > Some conservatives say it's a long-overdue swing of the pendulum after > years of liberal efforts to define history on their terms in > classrooms and in popular culture. > > "We are adding balance," Texas school board member Don McLeroy said. > "History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left." > > The effort in Texas and nationwide is controversial, however, even > among many conservatives. McLeroy was defeated in a recent primary > after he led the campaign for a more conservative version of history, > a defeat that the National Review , a leading conservative organ, > called "sensible." > > While even some conservative intellectuals say that some of the > revisionist history is simply wrong, at the core, the effort reflects > the ever-changing view of history, which is always subject to revision > thanks to new information or new ways of looking at things, and often > is viewed through a political lens. > > "History in the popular world is always a political football," said > Alan Brinkley , a historian at Columbia University . "The right is > unusually mobilized at the moment." > > "Part of the tide of history is that it's contested terrain," said > Fritz Fischer , a historian at the University of Northern Colorado and > the chairman of the National Council for History Education . "We > should always be arguing and questioning what happened in the past." > > It's not just historians who contest history, however. It's also > politicians and pundits. > > The left has done it. > > Fischer cited the case of controversial former University of Colorado > professor Ward Churchill , whose essay claiming that the 9/11 > terrorist attacks were the fruit of illegal U.S. policies became a > cause celebre. Fischer said Churchill "ignored a lot of evidence and > made some up to promulgate a particular political belief." > > Now, it's the right. > > "There's clearly a political impetus behind this that connects to the > issues of today," Fischer said, such as labeling President Barack > Obama a socialist. "But when history is ignored to do it, that can be > dangerous." > > Here are five recent examples of new conservative versions of history: > > *JAMESTOWN * > > Reaching for an example of how bad socialism can be, former House of > Representatives Majority Leader Dick Armey , R- Texas , said recently > that the people who settled Jamestown, Va. , in 1607 were socialists > and that their ideology doomed them. > > " Jamestown colony, when it was first founded as a socialist venture, > dang near failed with everybody dead and dying in the snow," he said > in a speech March 15 at the National Press Club . > > It was a good, strong story, helping Armey, a former economics > professor, illustrate the dangers of socialism, the same ideology that > he and other conservatives say is at the core of Obama's agenda. > > It was not, however, true. > > The Jamestown settlement was a capitalist venture financed by the > Virginia Company of London ? a joint stock corporation ? to make a > profit. The colony nearly foundered owing to a harsh winter, brackish > water and lack of food, but reinforcements enabled it to survive. It > was never socialistic. In fact, in 1619, Jamestown planters imported > the first African slaves to the 13 colonies that later formed the > United States . > > *ALEXANDER HAMILTON * > > At the same event, Armey urged people to read the Federalist Papers as > a guide to the sentiments of the tea party movement. > > "The small-government conservative movement, which includes people who > call themselves the tea party patriots and so forth, is about the > principles of liberty as embodied in the Constitution, the > understanding of which is fleshed out if you read things like the > Federalist Papers," Armey said. > > Others such as Democrats and the news media, "people here who do not > cherish America the way we do," don't understand because "they did not > read the Federalist Papers," he said. > > A member of the audience asked Armey how the Federalist Papers could > be such a tea party manifesto when they were written largely by > Alexander Hamilton , who the questioner said "was widely regarded then > and now as an advocate of a strong central government." > > Armey ridiculed the very suggestion. > > "Widely regarded by whom?" he asked. "Today's modern, ill-informed > political science professors? . . . I just doubt that was the case, in > fact, about Hamilton." > > Hamilton, however, was an unapologetic advocate of a strong central > government, one that plays an active role in the economy and is led by > a president named for life and thus beyond the emotions of the people. > Hamilton also pushed for excise taxes and customs duties to pay down > federal debt. > > In fact, Ian Finseth said in a history written for the University of > Virginia , others at the constitutional convention "thought his > proposals went too far in strengthening the central government." > > * THEODORE ROOSEVELT * > > Theodore Roosevelt was long an icon of the Republican Party , a > dynamic leader who ushered in the Progressive era, busting trusts, > regulating robber barons, building the Panama Canal and sending the > U.S. fleet around the world announcing ascendant American power. > > Fox TV commentator Glenn Beck , however, says that Roosevelt was a > socialist whose legacy is destroying America. It started, Beck said, > with Roosevelt's admonition to the wealthy of his day to spend their > riches for the good of society. > > "We judge no man a fortune in civil life if it's honorably obtained > and well spent," Roosevelt said, according to Beck. "It's not even > enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the > community. We should permit it only to be gained so long as the > gaining represents benefit to the community." > > Actually, Roosevelt said, "We GRUDGE no man a fortune ... if it's > honorably obtained and well USED." But either way, Beck saw the threat. > > "Oh? Well, thank you," Beck said with scorn during his keynote speech > to the recent Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington . > The presidential suggestion that the wealthy of the Gilded Age should > contribute to the good of society was a clear danger that must be > condemned, Beck said. > > "Is this what the Republican Party stands for? Well, you should ask > members of the Republican Party , because this is not our founders' > idea of America. And this is the cancer that's eating at America. It > is big government; it's a socialist utopia," Beck said. > > "And we need to address it as if it is a cancer. It must be cut out of > the system because they cannot coexist. ... You must eradicate it. It > cannot coexist." > > There's no doubt that Roosevelt was a domestic policy liberal by > today's standards. In a 1910 speech in Kansas , he acknowledged that > his "New Nationalism" meant "far more active governmental interference > with social and economic conditions in this country than we have yet > had." > > The 26th president insisted, however, that he wanted the government to > guarantee opportunity, not a handout. > > "The fundamental thing to do for every man is to give him a chance to > reach a place in which he will make the greatest possible contribution > to the public welfare," he said. > > "Give him a chance, not push him up if he will not be pushed. ... Help > any man who stumbles; if he lies down, it is a poor job to try to > carry him; but if he is a worthy man, try your best to see that he > gets a chance to show the worth that is in him." > > In his autobiography three years later, Roosevelt went on to dismiss > the tenets of socialism as taught by Karl Marx as "an exploded theory." > > "Too many thoroughly well-meaning men and women in the America of > today glibly repeat and accept," he wrote, "various assumptions and > speculations by Marx and others which by the lapse of time and by > actual experiment have been shown to possess not one shred of value." > > In addition, Roosevelt didn't advocate government ownership of the > means of production, the definition of socialism. > > * FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT * > > It's long been debated how well Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal > government programs countered the Great Depression, but now a > prominent conservative has introduced the idea that Roosevelt CAUSED > the Depression. > > "FDR took office in the midst of a recession," Rep. Michele Bachmann , > R- Minn. , told the Conservative Political Action Conference in > February. "He decided to choose massive government spending and the > creation of monstrous bureaucracies. Do we detect a Democrat pattern > here in all of this? He took what was a manageable recession and > turned it into a 10-year depression." > > A year before, Bachmann went to the House floor to blame FDR and what > she called the "Hoot-Smalley" tariffs for creating the Depression. > > "The recession that FDR had to deal with wasn't as bad as the > recession (President Calvin) Coolidge had to deal with in the early > '20s," she said. > > Coolidge cut taxes and created the roaring '20s, Bachmann said. > > "FDR applied just the opposite formula: the Hoot-Smalley act, which > was a tremendous burden on tariff restrictions. And of course trade > barriers and the regulatory burden and of course tax barriers. > > "That's what we saw happen under FDR. That took a recession and blew > it into a full-scale depression. The American people suffered for > almost 10 years under that kind of thinking." > > The truth? Historians agree that tariffs hurt trade and worsened the > depression. > > However, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act ? not Hoot-Smalley ? was proposed > by two Republicans, Sen. Reed Smoot of Utah and Rep. Willis Hawley of > Oregon . A Republican House and a Republican Senate approved it. > President Herbert Hoover , a Republican, signed it into law. > > The facts also show that the country was in something far worse than a > "manageable recession" in March 1933 when Roosevelt took office. > > Stocks had lost 90 percent of their value since the crash of 1929. > Thousands of banks had failed. Unemployment reached an all-time high > of 24.9 percent just before Roosevelt was inaugurated. > > *JOE MCCARTHY * > > Sen. Joseph McCarthy , R- Wis. , burst onto the national stage in the > early 1950s with accusations that he had a list of names of known > Communists in the federal government. He didn't name them, was > censured by the Senate eventually and his name became synonymous with > witch hunts ? McCarthyism. > > Now, the end of the Cold War has opened up spy files and identified > many Communist spies who operated inside the government during the > era. Some conservatives argue that this proves not only that McCarthy > was right, but also that he was a hero and that he was smeared by > liberals, the news media and historians. > > "Almost everything about McCarthy in current history books is a lie > and will have to be revised," conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly > said. > > "Liberals had to destroy McCarthy because he exposed the entire > liberal establishment as having sheltered Soviet spies," conservative > commentator Ann Coulter said in one interview. > > "The myth of 'McCarthyism' is the greatest Orwellian fraud of our > times," she said in another. "Liberals are fanatical liars, then as > now. The portrayal of Senator Joe McCarthy as a wild-eyed demagogue > destroying innocent lives is sheer liberal hobgoblinism. ... If the > Internet, talk radio and Fox News had been around in McCarthy's day, > my book wouldn't be the first time most people would be hearing the > truth about 'McCarthyism.' " > > Yet even some prominent conservatives say that McCarthy's defenders go > too far, and that even from a conservative perspective, McCarthy was > no hero and damaged the country. > > "A dangerous movement has been growing among conservative writers to > vindicate the late Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy and his campaign to expose > Soviet spies in the U.S. government," Ronald Kessler wrote for the > conservative Web site Newsmax.com > . > > > "The FBI agents who were actually chasing those spies have told me > that McCarthy hurt their efforts because he trumped up charges, > unfairly besmirched honorable Americans and gave hunting spies a bad > name." > > Kessler said the release of secret Cold War files under the Venona > Project confirmed that there were Soviet spies in the U.S. government. > > "The problem was that the people McCarthy tarnished as Communists or > Communist sympathizers were not the real spies," Kessler wrote. > > "The cause of anti-communism, which united millions of Americans and > which gained the support of Democrats, Republicans and independents, > was undermined by Sen. Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin ," wrote William > Bennett , who was the conservative secretary of education under > President Ronald Reagan . > > "McCarthy addressed a real problem: disloyal elements within the U.S. > government. But his approach to this real problem was to cause untold > grief to the country he claimed to love," Bennett wrote in his book > "America: The Last Best Hope." > > "Worst of all, McCarthy besmirched the honorable cause of > anti-communism. He discredited legitimate efforts to counter Soviet > subversion of American institutions." > > *ON THE WEB * > > More on Jamestown > > > > Armey's speech at the National Press Club > > > > Treasury Department history of Hamilton > > > > University of Virginia on Hamilton > > > > More on the Venona Project > > > > *MORE FROM MCCLATCHY* > > Who should be at Obama's health care signing? Truman > > > > Here's the truth: 'Birther' claims are just plain nuts > > > > Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make birthers look sane > > > > > For more McClatchy politics coverage, visit Planet Washington > > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/6788f300/attachment-0001.gif From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:38:17 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:38:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BB67FE9.6060906@gmail.com> The constitution in Article 4, Section 4 states "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government". Although we are not a true Republic, our government is most commonly referred to as a Democratic Republic. This has become more of a fact after the 17th amendment was ratified and states that we now elect senators by direct vote. I believe there may still be some small New England towns that have a true democracy, the age old town hall meeting where every citizen gets a vote. Although it has been said that a democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote to get all of the money out of the public treasury. ;-) Adam donkelly wrote: > Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a > democracy. Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, > unlike the electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. > > But still democratic in both systems. > > Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. > > Don > > > > > /-------Original Message-------/ > > /*From:*/ Walt Wentz > /*Date:*/ 4/2/2010 10:28:05 AM > /*To:*/ nospam03 at comcast.net ; Forest > Grove local interests list > /*Subject:*/ Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder > . . . > > Good point. > Yet the legislators who represent us (republic) are supposed to be > elected in a democratic fashion. > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Steve wrote: > > > We are supposed to be a republic. We only spread democracy to other > > countries. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Browning > > > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:06 > > To: Grovenet> > > Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > FREE Animations for your email - by IncrediMail! Click Here! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 2 16:48:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:48:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] such a deal for the judge Message-ID: <15667-4BB68251-806@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Bob... I'll tell ya what I'll do since you are intent on trying to get me married off again. You find one that you think would keep me out of trouble, and I shall even agree to pay you a finders fee. However, this female person must agree to be questioned by any other grove folks, my folks, and my two katts. However, if there is a dog is involved, that has to be negotiated. Another draw back is that it has to done before Halloween, which is my sixty-second birthday and in time for a double wedding with another grove nut. Anyone want to give odds if the judge can do the job? The party who is actually getting married the won't even consider betting with me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/bd6782c9/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 17:04:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:04:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] such a deal for the judge References: <15667-4BB68251-806@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BB68618.000094.02556@DON-B2514E06367> A potential wife has to be vetted heh? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/2/2010 4:48:50 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] such a deal for the judge ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/7e625541/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 18:34:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:34:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Another A for the government? Message-ID: <4BB69B2F.0000A4.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Check out 'Pro-GMO chemical polluter becomes Obama?s ag trade negotiator and Surprise he is Muslim US Senate approved President Barack Obama?s nomination for chief agricultural negotiator in the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, Monsanto lobbyist Islam Siddiqui. Link: Pro-GMO chemical polluter becomes Obama?s ag trade negotiator and Surprise he is Muslim From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 2 18:49:31 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:49:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] such a deal for the judge In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:04:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <4255-4BB69EAB-403@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don ... in vetted do you mean to run and thump her for soundness? And no Kate ... this is not another scew-ball idea, for in some cultures this is actually done. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100402/40e7619e/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 18:53:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> It's a pain, alright. The City also requires us to have such a form from anyone renting a space in the community garden. One can see their point if this may deter even one humongous lawsuit from somebody who ruins the classic beauty of his Graeco-Roman nose by stepping on a rake, and who then tries to drain the City treasury for Pain and Suffering. But as you note, they might also itemize a few of the perils your children might reasonably face, including terminal boredom. On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > The summer is almost upon us - despite what the weather is today > and I am filling out a form for my daughter's summer activity. > > I tend to actually read the "Release of Liability" forms but they > are increasingly irritating. I understand that we live in a > litigious era, and these organizations are only trying to protect > themselves, but come on... > > The latest form states: > .....I release and agree to indemnify and hold harmless the > Releasees from any and all liabilities incident to my minor child's > involvement or participation in these programs as provided above, > EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES, to the > fullest extent permitted by law. (note: the caps are not mine - > they are actually caps on the form) > > Also on the form in caps again: > I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK > AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN > UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND > VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT. > > What is the value in these forms anyways - has anything changed > since every organization requires you to sign a form? Have the > rate of lawsuits decreased? > > I understand an organization would want to inform parents of the > risks in which they are allowing their children to participate. > But wouldn't a letter describing the risks be better than > threatening the parents? > > What do other people think about this stuff? Sometimes I think > I'll refuse to sign another one of these waivers, but all it does > is penalize my daughter. > > Marian > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 19:21:22 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:21:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com> <4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net> <7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com> <4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> Yep. having a President selected or appointed despite losing the popular vote really sticks in my craw. Seems contrary to the basic idea of democracy. Intimidation would not seem to be anywhere near the problem in the US that apathy or despair is. I've never heard of pro-candidate thugs hanging around the balloting places, as in third-world countries--the nearest to that might be in the last election, when far-right Repubs insisted on "monitoring" some black precincts so they could "check the eligibility" of minority voters, or the dirty stunts like sending out mass mailings advising Democrats that they could only vote the day after Republicans did. And I don't think ACORN was ever in any position to swipe any ballot boxes... however, they did encourage Poor People to vote, which apparently goes against the interests of the Real People. On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:43 PM, donkelly wrote: > Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections > would not > discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. > > Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won > elections with > less than majority vote. > > On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by > fraud, > where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be > affected > by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, > > But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black > Panthers, or > CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN > swiping > ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, > it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with > small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern > times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. > WW > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: > >> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people in a >> democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. >> >> >> >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of donkelly >> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >> weirder . . . >> >> >> >> >> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a >> democracy. >> Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike >> the >> electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. >> >> >> >> But still democratic in both systems. >> >> >> >> Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 19:32:02 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 02:32:02 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com><4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367><000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net><7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com><4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367><8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1638060814-1270261934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1613822150-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We could have had Nixon 12 years earlier. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:21:22 To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . Yep. having a President selected or appointed despite losing the popular vote really sticks in my craw. Seems contrary to the basic idea of democracy. Intimidation would not seem to be anywhere near the problem in the US that apathy or despair is. I've never heard of pro-candidate thugs hanging around the balloting places, as in third-world countries--the nearest to that might be in the last election, when far-right Repubs insisted on "monitoring" some black precincts so they could "check the eligibility" of minority voters, or the dirty stunts like sending out mass mailings advising Democrats that they could only vote the day after Republicans did. And I don't think ACORN was ever in any position to swipe any ballot boxes... however, they did encourage Poor People to vote, which apparently goes against the interests of the Real People. On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:43 PM, donkelly wrote: > Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections > would not > discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. > > Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won > elections with > less than majority vote. > > On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by > fraud, > where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be > affected > by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, > > But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black > Panthers, or > CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN > swiping > ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, > it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with > small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern > times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. > WW > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: > >> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people in a >> democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. >> >> >> >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of donkelly >> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >> weirder . . . >> >> >> >> >> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a >> democracy. >> Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike >> the >> electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. >> >> >> >> But still democratic in both systems. >> >> >> >> Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 20:03:09 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:03:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> References: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <82C27DA3-D15C-4AE0-93F9-E57D949B104F@teleport.com> Or, "The victor writes the history books." In this case, we will see a LOT of history being either "debunked" or "falsified," depending on your viewpoint, until the present reactionary hysteria subsides. And the pendulum does swing. I always find that thought reassuring when something as scary as the Texas imbroglio comes along. On Apr 2, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > George Orwell summed it up pretty well "He who controls the past, > controls the future. He who controls present, controls the past." > > I'm not an expert on most of the topics, but a good read is The > Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn. He goes into detail of how > incompetent > Franklin Roosevelt was with managing money and budgets, as well as how > almost all of the new deal programs failed. > > As for communists in the government, growing up in Queens my next door > neighbor, Mr. Vego, was a Hungarian immigrant who came to the United > States in the 1940's. He worked in the late 40's for the US Government > in Washington DC. Mr. Vego, and his wife, were members of the > communist > party. They were open about it, their house was kind of creepy with > all > of the Stalin pins and other communist artwork. > > You need to hear both sides of any situation in order to make a valid > assessment. The truth will always rise to the top, you can't block out > one side if you don't like what they are saying, even if it is false. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> It is my hope that the following will go through to G'net and not get >> caught up in its filters, since every right thinking American (and >> probably the left thinking, too) should be absolutely appalled by the >> following. It certainly reminds me of the efforts to rehabilitate >> Stalin's memory, and has just about as much real scholarship >> behind it. >> >> Please, folks, make sure your children and grandchildren are given >> the >> opportunity to read and learn the real history of this country, not >> just the fairy tales made up by the far left and the far right, or by >> those nostalgic for some sugarcoated fairy tale with no basis in >> reality!! >> >> bob "don't tell me a fairy tale, grampa!!" browning >> >> (PS: And to think I took a shot at Newsmax the other day. In this >> fight they come off as paragons of virtue!!! >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> >> >> Some right-wingers ignore facts as they rewrite U.S. history >> >> By Steven Thomma, McClatchy Newspapers >> Thu Apr 1, 2010 >> >> WASHINGTON ? The right is rewriting history. >> >> The most ballyhooed effort is under way in Texas , where >> conservatives >> have pushed the state school board to rewrite guidelines, downplaying >> Thomas Jefferson in one high school course, playing up such >> conservatives as Phyllis Schlafly and the Heritage Foundation and >> challenging the idea that the Founding Fathers wanted to separate >> church and state. >> >> The effort reaches far beyond one state, however. >> >> In articles and speeches, on radio and TV, conservatives are working >> to redefine major turning points and influential figures in American >> history, often to slam liberals, promote Republicans and reinforce >> their positions in today's politics. >> >> The Jamestown settlers? Socialists. Founding Father Alexander >> Hamilton >> ? Ill-informed professors made up all that bunk about him >> advocating a >> strong central government. >> >> Theodore Roosevelt ? Another socialist. Franklin D. Roosevelt ? Not >> only did he not end the Great Depression, he also created it. >> >> Joe McCarthy ? Liberals lied about him. He was a hero. >> >> Some conservatives say it's a long-overdue swing of the pendulum >> after >> years of liberal efforts to define history on their terms in >> classrooms and in popular culture. >> >> "We are adding balance," Texas school board member Don McLeroy said. >> "History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to >> the left." >> >> The effort in Texas and nationwide is controversial, however, even >> among many conservatives. McLeroy was defeated in a recent primary >> after he led the campaign for a more conservative version of history, >> a defeat that the National Review , a leading conservative organ, >> called "sensible." >> >> While even some conservative intellectuals say that some of the >> revisionist history is simply wrong, at the core, the effort reflects >> the ever-changing view of history, which is always subject to >> revision >> thanks to new information or new ways of looking at things, and often >> is viewed through a political lens. >> >> "History in the popular world is always a political football," said >> Alan Brinkley , a historian at Columbia University . "The right is >> unusually mobilized at the moment." >> >> "Part of the tide of history is that it's contested terrain," said >> Fritz Fischer , a historian at the University of Northern Colorado >> and >> the chairman of the National Council for History Education . "We >> should always be arguing and questioning what happened in the past." >> >> It's not just historians who contest history, however. It's also >> politicians and pundits. >> >> The left has done it. >> >> Fischer cited the case of controversial former University of Colorado >> professor Ward Churchill , whose essay claiming that the 9/11 >> terrorist attacks were the fruit of illegal U.S. policies became a >> cause celebre. Fischer said Churchill "ignored a lot of evidence and >> made some up to promulgate a particular political belief." >> >> Now, it's the right. >> >> "There's clearly a political impetus behind this that connects to the >> issues of today," Fischer said, such as labeling President Barack >> Obama a socialist. "But when history is ignored to do it, that can be >> dangerous." >> >> Here are five recent examples of new conservative versions of >> history: >> >> *JAMESTOWN * >> >> Reaching for an example of how bad socialism can be, former House of >> Representatives Majority Leader Dick Armey , R- Texas , said recently >> that the people who settled Jamestown, Va. , in 1607 were socialists >> and that their ideology doomed them. >> >> " Jamestown colony, when it was first founded as a socialist venture, >> dang near failed with everybody dead and dying in the snow," he said >> in a speech March 15 at the National Press Club . >> >> It was a good, strong story, helping Armey, a former economics >> professor, illustrate the dangers of socialism, the same ideology >> that >> he and other conservatives say is at the core of Obama's agenda. >> >> It was not, however, true. >> >> The Jamestown settlement was a capitalist venture financed by the >> Virginia Company of London ? a joint stock corporation ? to make a >> profit. The colony nearly foundered owing to a harsh winter, brackish >> water and lack of food, but reinforcements enabled it to survive. It >> was never socialistic. In fact, in 1619, Jamestown planters imported >> the first African slaves to the 13 colonies that later formed the >> United States . >> >> *ALEXANDER HAMILTON * >> >> At the same event, Armey urged people to read the Federalist >> Papers as >> a guide to the sentiments of the tea party movement. >> >> "The small-government conservative movement, which includes people >> who >> call themselves the tea party patriots and so forth, is about the >> principles of liberty as embodied in the Constitution, the >> understanding of which is fleshed out if you read things like the >> Federalist Papers," Armey said. >> >> Others such as Democrats and the news media, "people here who do not >> cherish America the way we do," don't understand because "they did >> not >> read the Federalist Papers," he said. >> >> A member of the audience asked Armey how the Federalist Papers could >> be such a tea party manifesto when they were written largely by >> Alexander Hamilton , who the questioner said "was widely regarded >> then >> and now as an advocate of a strong central government." >> >> Armey ridiculed the very suggestion. >> >> "Widely regarded by whom?" he asked. "Today's modern, ill-informed >> political science professors? . . . I just doubt that was the >> case, in >> fact, about Hamilton." >> >> Hamilton, however, was an unapologetic advocate of a strong central >> government, one that plays an active role in the economy and is >> led by >> a president named for life and thus beyond the emotions of the >> people. >> Hamilton also pushed for excise taxes and customs duties to pay down >> federal debt. >> >> In fact, Ian Finseth said in a history written for the University of >> Virginia , others at the constitutional convention "thought his >> proposals went too far in strengthening the central government." >> >> * THEODORE ROOSEVELT * >> >> Theodore Roosevelt was long an icon of the Republican Party , a >> dynamic leader who ushered in the Progressive era, busting trusts, >> regulating robber barons, building the Panama Canal and sending the >> U.S. fleet around the world announcing ascendant American power. >> >> Fox TV commentator Glenn Beck , however, says that Roosevelt was a >> socialist whose legacy is destroying America. It started, Beck said, >> with Roosevelt's admonition to the wealthy of his day to spend their >> riches for the good of society. >> >> "We judge no man a fortune in civil life if it's honorably obtained >> and well spent," Roosevelt said, according to Beck. "It's not even >> enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the >> community. We should permit it only to be gained so long as the >> gaining represents benefit to the community." >> >> Actually, Roosevelt said, "We GRUDGE no man a fortune ... if it's >> honorably obtained and well USED." But either way, Beck saw the >> threat. >> >> "Oh? Well, thank you," Beck said with scorn during his keynote speech >> to the recent Conservative Political Action Conference in >> Washington . >> The presidential suggestion that the wealthy of the Gilded Age should >> contribute to the good of society was a clear danger that must be >> condemned, Beck said. >> >> "Is this what the Republican Party stands for? Well, you should ask >> members of the Republican Party , because this is not our founders' >> idea of America. And this is the cancer that's eating at America. It >> is big government; it's a socialist utopia," Beck said. >> >> "And we need to address it as if it is a cancer. It must be cut >> out of >> the system because they cannot coexist. ... You must eradicate it. It >> cannot coexist." >> >> There's no doubt that Roosevelt was a domestic policy liberal by >> today's standards. In a 1910 speech in Kansas , he acknowledged that >> his "New Nationalism" meant "far more active governmental >> interference >> with social and economic conditions in this country than we have yet >> had." >> >> The 26th president insisted, however, that he wanted the >> government to >> guarantee opportunity, not a handout. >> >> "The fundamental thing to do for every man is to give him a chance to >> reach a place in which he will make the greatest possible >> contribution >> to the public welfare," he said. >> >> "Give him a chance, not push him up if he will not be pushed. ... >> Help >> any man who stumbles; if he lies down, it is a poor job to try to >> carry him; but if he is a worthy man, try your best to see that he >> gets a chance to show the worth that is in him." >> >> In his autobiography three years later, Roosevelt went on to dismiss >> the tenets of socialism as taught by Karl Marx as "an exploded >> theory." >> >> "Too many thoroughly well-meaning men and women in the America of >> today glibly repeat and accept," he wrote, "various assumptions and >> speculations by Marx and others which by the lapse of time and by >> actual experiment have been shown to possess not one shred of value." >> >> In addition, Roosevelt didn't advocate government ownership of the >> means of production, the definition of socialism. >> >> * FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT * >> >> It's long been debated how well Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal >> government programs countered the Great Depression, but now a >> prominent conservative has introduced the idea that Roosevelt CAUSED >> the Depression. >> >> "FDR took office in the midst of a recession," Rep. Michele >> Bachmann , >> R- Minn. , told the Conservative Political Action Conference in >> February. "He decided to choose massive government spending and the >> creation of monstrous bureaucracies. Do we detect a Democrat pattern >> here in all of this? He took what was a manageable recession and >> turned it into a 10-year depression." >> >> A year before, Bachmann went to the House floor to blame FDR and what >> she called the "Hoot-Smalley" tariffs for creating the Depression. >> >> "The recession that FDR had to deal with wasn't as bad as the >> recession (President Calvin) Coolidge had to deal with in the early >> '20s," she said. >> >> Coolidge cut taxes and created the roaring '20s, Bachmann said. >> >> "FDR applied just the opposite formula: the Hoot-Smalley act, which >> was a tremendous burden on tariff restrictions. And of course trade >> barriers and the regulatory burden and of course tax barriers. >> >> "That's what we saw happen under FDR. That took a recession and blew >> it into a full-scale depression. The American people suffered for >> almost 10 years under that kind of thinking." >> >> The truth? Historians agree that tariffs hurt trade and worsened the >> depression. >> >> However, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act ? not Hoot-Smalley ? was >> proposed >> by two Republicans, Sen. Reed Smoot of Utah and Rep. Willis Hawley of >> Oregon . A Republican House and a Republican Senate approved it. >> President Herbert Hoover , a Republican, signed it into law. >> >> The facts also show that the country was in something far worse >> than a >> "manageable recession" in March 1933 when Roosevelt took office. >> >> Stocks had lost 90 percent of their value since the crash of 1929. >> Thousands of banks had failed. Unemployment reached an all-time high >> of 24.9 percent just before Roosevelt was inaugurated. >> >> *JOE MCCARTHY * >> >> Sen. Joseph McCarthy , R- Wis. , burst onto the national stage in the >> early 1950s with accusations that he had a list of names of known >> Communists in the federal government. He didn't name them, was >> censured by the Senate eventually and his name became synonymous with >> witch hunts ? McCarthyism. >> >> Now, the end of the Cold War has opened up spy files and identified >> many Communist spies who operated inside the government during the >> era. Some conservatives argue that this proves not only that McCarthy >> was right, but also that he was a hero and that he was smeared by >> liberals, the news media and historians. >> >> "Almost everything about McCarthy in current history books is a lie >> and will have to be revised," conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly >> said. >> >> "Liberals had to destroy McCarthy because he exposed the entire >> liberal establishment as having sheltered Soviet spies," conservative >> commentator Ann Coulter said in one interview. >> >> "The myth of 'McCarthyism' is the greatest Orwellian fraud of our >> times," she said in another. "Liberals are fanatical liars, then as >> now. The portrayal of Senator Joe McCarthy as a wild-eyed demagogue >> destroying innocent lives is sheer liberal hobgoblinism. ... If the >> Internet, talk radio and Fox News had been around in McCarthy's day, >> my book wouldn't be the first time most people would be hearing the >> truth about 'McCarthyism.' " >> >> Yet even some prominent conservatives say that McCarthy's >> defenders go >> too far, and that even from a conservative perspective, McCarthy was >> no hero and damaged the country. >> >> "A dangerous movement has been growing among conservative writers to >> vindicate the late Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy and his campaign to expose >> Soviet spies in the U.S. government," Ronald Kessler wrote for the >> conservative Web site Newsmax.com >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=10k43gava/*http://Newsmax.com>. >> >> >> "The FBI agents who were actually chasing those spies have told me >> that McCarthy hurt their efforts because he trumped up charges, >> unfairly besmirched honorable Americans and gave hunting spies a bad >> name." >> >> Kessler said the release of secret Cold War files under the Venona >> Project confirmed that there were Soviet spies in the U.S. >> government. >> >> "The problem was that the people McCarthy tarnished as Communists or >> Communist sympathizers were not the real spies," Kessler wrote. >> >> "The cause of anti-communism, which united millions of Americans and >> which gained the support of Democrats, Republicans and independents, >> was undermined by Sen. Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin ," wrote William >> Bennett , who was the conservative secretary of education under >> President Ronald Reagan . >> >> "McCarthy addressed a real problem: disloyal elements within the U.S. >> government. But his approach to this real problem was to cause untold >> grief to the country he claimed to love," Bennett wrote in his book >> "America: The Last Best Hope." >> >> "Worst of all, McCarthy besmirched the honorable cause of >> anti-communism. He discredited legitimate efforts to counter Soviet >> subversion of American institutions." >> >> *ON THE WEB * >> >> More on Jamestown >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=10uqr9949/*http://www.historyisfun.org/> >> >> >> Armey's speech at the National Press Club >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=10s5cv6j5/*http://tinyurl.com/yjqspaq> >> >> >> Treasury Department history of Hamilton >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=126p9ll58/*http://www.ustreas.gov/education/ >> history/secretaries/ahamilton.shtml> >> >> >> University of Virginia on Hamilton >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=10sab875t/*http://tinyurl.com/yfbr2d2> >> >> >> More on the Venona Project >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=10sj97d8h/*http://tinyurl.com/ygzgekz> >> >> >> *MORE FROM MCCLATCHY* >> >> Who should be at Obama's health care signing? Truman >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=12k3aq0nr/*http://www.mcclatchydc.com/ >> 2010/03/22/90861/trumans-ghost-may-be-looking-over.html> >> >> >> Here's the truth: 'Birther' claims are just plain nuts >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=12holvban/*http://www.mcclatchydc.com/ >> 2009/07/30/72794/heres-the-truth-birther-claims.html> >> >> >> Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make birthers look sane >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=12md5aut6/*http://www.mcclatchydc.com/ >> 2009/08/28/74549/secret-camps-and-guillotines-groups.html> >> >> >> >> For more McClatchy politics coverage, visit Planet Washington >> > 3466905/35671800/SIG=11hlq50e6/*http:// >> washingtonbureau.typepad.com/washington/> >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> -- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 20:20:36 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:20:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <1638060814-1270261934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1613822150-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com><4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367><000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net><7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com><4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367><8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> <1638060814-1270261934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1613822150-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Steve wrote: > We could have had Nixon 12 years earlier. If we'd got it over with 12 years earlier, the country might be in better shape today, who knows? > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:21:22 > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests > list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > Yep. having a President selected or appointed despite losing the > popular vote really sticks in my craw. Seems contrary to the basic > idea of democracy. > Intimidation would not seem to be anywhere near the problem in the US > that apathy or despair is. I've never heard of pro-candidate thugs > hanging around the balloting places, as in third-world countries--the > nearest to that might be in the last election, when far-right Repubs > insisted on "monitoring" some black precincts so they could "check > the eligibility" of minority voters, or the dirty stunts like sending > out mass mailings advising Democrats that they could only vote the > day after Republicans did. And I don't think ACORN was ever in any > position to swipe any ballot boxes... however, they did encourage > Poor People to vote, which apparently goes against the interests of > the Real People. > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:43 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections >> would not >> discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. >> >> Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won >> elections with >> less than majority vote. >> >> On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by >> fraud, >> where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be >> affected >> by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, >> >> But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black >> Panthers, or >> CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN >> swiping >> ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. >> >> Don >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >> weirder . . . >> >> I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, >> it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with >> small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern >> times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. >> WW >> >> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people >>> in a >>> democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >>> weirder . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a >>> democracy. >>> Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike >>> the >>> electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. >>> >>> >>> >>> But still democratic in both systems. >>> >>> >>> >>> Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet_______________________ >> _ >> _______________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 22:27:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:27:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com><4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367><000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net><7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com><4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367><8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> <1638060814-1270261934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1613822150-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BB6D1BA.0000E2.02556@DON-B2514E06367> I've been teed off most of the time since the peanut farmer took office. But I give him some retribution for volunteering his retirement years to habitats for humanity. I really like Reagan though.........mostly that is. The rest has been a big bust, and getting bustier by the day. This is a race against time, a race we cannot afford to lose. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/2/2010 8:20:37 PM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . On Apr 2, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Steve wrote: > We could have had Nixon 12 years earlier. If we'd got it over with 12 years earlier, the country might be in better shape today, who knows? > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:21:22 > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests > list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > Yep. having a President selected or appointed despite losing the > popular vote really sticks in my craw. Seems contrary to the basic > idea of democracy. > Intimidation would not seem to be anywhere near the problem in the US > that apathy or despair is. I've never heard of pro-candidate thugs > hanging around the balloting places, as in third-world countries--the > nearest to that might be in the last election, when far-right Repubs > insisted on "monitoring" some black precincts so they could "check > the eligibility" of minority voters, or the dirty stunts like sending > out mass mailings advising Democrats that they could only vote the > day after Republicans did. And I don't think ACORN was ever in any > position to swipe any ballot boxes... however, they did encourage > Poor People to vote, which apparently goes against the interests of > the Real People. > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:43 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections >> would not >> discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. >> >> Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won >> elections with >> less than majority vote. >> >> On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by >> fraud, >> where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be >> affected >> by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, >> >> But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black >> Panthers, or >> CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN >> swiping >> ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. >> >> Don >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >> weirder . . . >> >> I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, >> it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states with >> small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern >> times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. >> WW >> >> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people >>> in a >>> democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >>> weirder . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a >>> democracy. >>> Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike >>> the >>> electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. >>> >>> >>> >>> But still democratic in both systems. >>> >>> >>> >>> Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet_______________________ >> _ >> _______________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/22d7fee1/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 22:38:30 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:38:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <3D4C5108D79F4C268A97A4C2F63F8F05@EdDaviePC> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <3D4C5108D79F4C268A97A4C2F63F8F05@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: I was wondering the same thing. In 1981 Norman Lear founded "People for the American Way". They are still around http://www.pfaw.org/ They support a variety of issues. People For the American Way is dedicated to making the promise of America real for every American: Equality. Freedom of speech. Freedom of religion. The right to seek justice in a court of law. The right to cast a vote that counts. The American Way. Our vision is a vibrantly diverse democratic society in which everyone is treated equally under the law, given the freedom and opportunity to pursue their dreams, and encouraged to participate in our nation?s civic and political life. Our America respects diversity, nurtures creativity and combats hatred and bigotry. 1981? That year keeps coming up, doesn't it? David On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Just curious ... What is the American Way? > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: donkelly > ... Here is a spot of education that, cut any way one wants, does not support the American way. > > Donkelly From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 23:05:52 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:05:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some more links In-Reply-To: <000001cad272$8a96be00$9fc43a00$@net> References: <000001cad272$8a96be00$9fc43a00$@net> Message-ID: <828600C7-9D2E-4063-864C-C87172A65C6D@verizon.net> It appears that a police report was made and the offending person was identified. No charges were filed. David On Apr 2, 2010, at 7:41 AM, Steven wrote: > Another view of things in the group lately. > > Something ugly happened the other day outside the Capitol in Washington just before the vote on healthcare reform. From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 23:14:38 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:14:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just plain scary . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> References: <4BB53707.1080202@jurislex.com> <4BB67A39.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <314DDC40-9EFB-4A55-814D-07528F40A977@verizon.net> On Apr 2, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > George Orwell summed it up pretty well "He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls present, controls the past." > > I'm not an expert on most of the topics, but a good read is The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn. He goes into detail of how incompetent Franklin Roosevelt was with managing money and budgets, as well as how almost all of the new deal programs failed. Yes, the only program that really succeeded was the one that threaded a path between a revolution and a dictatorship. Which is not insignificant, since the same forces that pushed the fascists into power were present in the U.S., and the same forces that supported the communist movement was present as well. We came close to a class war and the disintegration of our Constitutional government. > You need to hear both sides of any situation in order to make a valid assessment. The truth will always rise to the top, you can't block out one side if you don't like what they are saying, even if it is false. > > Adam From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 23:23:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 23:23:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <3D4C5108D79F4C268A97A4C2F63F8F05@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4BB6DEDD.0000EA.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Yeah, broke my ankle that same year. What is it about 1981? Bad luck or something in the water? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/2/2010 10:39:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I was wondering the same thing. In 1981 Norman Lear founded "People for the American Way". They are still around http://www.pfaw.org/ They support a variety of issues. People For the American Way is dedicated to making the promise of America real for every American: Equality. Freedom of speech. Freedom of religion. The right to seek justice in a court of law. The right to cast a vote that counts. The American Way. Our vision is a vibrantly diverse democratic society in which everyone is treated equally under the law, given the freedom and opportunity to pursue their dreams, and encouraged to participate in our nation?s civic and political life. Our America respects diversity, nurtures creativity and combats hatred and bigotry. 1981? That year keeps coming up, doesn't it? David On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Just curious ... What is the American Way? > Ed > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > From: donkelly > ... Here is a spot of education that, cut any way one wants, does not support the American way. > > Donkelly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100402/2a8ea8c7/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 23:46:13 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:46:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4BB6DEDD.0000EA.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> <951FBD11-3DB7-4984-92EE-3B310352AC1F@verizon.net> <4BB543E4.000004.04092@DON-B2514E06367> <013101cad224$6523c8a0$2f6b59e0$@com> <4BB6151C.000008.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <018301cad281$be0652a0$3a12f7e0$@com> <4BB626F4.00002A.02556@DON-B2514E06367> <3D4C5108D79F4C268A97A4C2F63F8F05@EdDaviePC> <4BB6DEDD.0000EA.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: I'll go for the bad luck. President Ronald Reagan was sworn in in January. The problems with the water likely came later when his appointments started to interpret the Clean Water Act. David On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:23 PM, donkelly wrote: > > Yeah, broke my ankle that same year. What is it about 1981? Bad luck or something in the water? > > Don From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sat Apr 3 08:12:19 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:12:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> Message-ID: Do you think these forms deter people from filing lawsuits (frivolous or legitimate)? It seems these forms defy logic. I don't believe a form exists which can cover every possible occurrence. What about the guy who wanders into the community garden and steps on a rake? HE DIDN'T SIGN THE FORM! Of course someone somewhere would probably say the whole area will need to be fenced. I'm sure the community garden has funds for that - right? My point is, where does this all stop? I grew up in upstate New York, in the midst of a variety of beautiful state parks. Watkins Glen and Letchworth State Park come to mind. Both of the gorges in those parks were carved when the glaciers receded. When I was little we enjoyed hiking and camping in those parks. By the time I was a teenager, almost all of the trails had fences, most overlooks were paved and had walls or fences to "protect the people". In addition there was no shortage of signs warning of dangers, large and small. This was most likely the result of lawsuits. Wouldn't it be sad, if the entire coastline of Oregon were fenced to "protect the people"? A couple of years ago, there was a news story about a little girl sitting on a fence at the coast, when she fell backwards and her dad grabbed her, just before she would have fallen down a steep cliff. Everyone talked about how dangerous it was and how a better fence should be erected. I agree this could have turned into a very sad and tragic situation. But people need to realize, the world is fraught with danger and if we continue trying to "protect the people" (a futile idea), the people will forget to protect themselves. I'll bet that family will be much more careful in the future and might not have their kids sit on a fence above a cliff to have their picture taken. Perhaps other families learned the same lesson. The recent TriMet Max train incidents also come to mind. The tragedy of the girl who died, might have been prevented had she been more aware. The world is not safe and it requires us to be aware of what goes on around us. It seems there should be a better way. Because frankly, I don't want my daughter to grow up in a world believing everything is safe and she will be protected from danger at all times. She needs to learn how to think for herself and evaluate situations to determine the risk involved. -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:53 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... > It's a pain, alright. The City also requires us to have such a form > from anyone renting a space in the community garden. > One can see their point if this may deter even one humongous lawsuit > from somebody who ruins the classic beauty of his Graeco-Roman nose > by stepping on a rake, and who then tries to drain the City treasury > for Pain and Suffering. But as you note, they might also itemize a > few of the perils your children might reasonably face, including > terminal boredom. > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> The summer is almost upon us - despite what the weather is today >> and I am filling out a form for my daughter's summer activity. >> >> I tend to actually read the "Release of Liability" forms but they >> are increasingly irritating. I understand that we live in a >> litigious era, and these organizations are only trying to protect >> themselves, but come on... >> >> The latest form states: >> .....I release and agree to indemnify and hold harmless the >> Releasees from any and all liabilities incident to my minor child's >> involvement or participation in these programs as provided above, >> EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES, to the >> fullest extent permitted by law. (note: the caps are not mine - >> they are actually caps on the form) >> >> Also on the form in caps again: >> I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK >> AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN >> UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND >> VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT. >> >> What is the value in these forms anyways - has anything changed >> since every organization requires you to sign a form? Have the >> rate of lawsuits decreased? >> >> I understand an organization would want to inform parents of the >> risks in which they are allowing their children to participate. >> But wouldn't a letter describing the risks be better than >> threatening the parents? >> >> What do other people think about this stuff? Sometimes I think >> I'll refuse to sign another one of these waivers, but all it does >> is penalize my daughter. >> >> Marian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 3 17:42:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:42:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and weirder . . . In-Reply-To: <4BB6D1BA.0000E2.02556@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BB61DE6.2010101@jurislex.com> <1835807522-1270227065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768750662-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <761428BB-1686-4112-97E0-ED521F935C3C@teleport.com><4BB62E29.000032.02556@DON-B2514E06367><000001cad28e$e6aac260$b4004720$@net><7C8C27E0-A5D9-49B0-9D04-6EDE6761BBE6@teleport.com><4BB67301.000071.02556@DON-B2514E06367><8EC3CBDB-45C0-4098-9ABA-918CE669BDEF@teleport.com> <1638060814-1270261934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1613822150-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BB6D1BA.0000E2.02556@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <5C136DA9-0A8A-4843-AC70-E694F1ACF3A0@teleport.com> Well, even at the time I thought Reagan was the beginning of the end of the American Dream. From his time onward, the American worker became an interchangeable, disposable work unit, and Money not only talked-- it monopolized the conversation! On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > I've been teed off most of the time since the peanut farmer took > office. > > But I give him some retribution for volunteering his retirement > years to > habitats for humanity. > > I really like Reagan though.........mostly that is. > > The rest has been a big bust, and getting bustier by the day. > > This is a race against time, a race we cannot afford to lose. > > Don > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/2/2010 8:20:37 PM > To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and > weirder . . . > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Steve wrote: > >> We could have had Nixon 12 years earlier. > > If we'd got it over with 12 years earlier, the country might be in > better shape today, who knows? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:21:22 >> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests >> list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >> weirder . . . >> >> Yep. having a President selected or appointed despite losing the >> popular vote really sticks in my craw. Seems contrary to the basic >> idea of democracy. >> Intimidation would not seem to be anywhere near the problem in the US >> that apathy or despair is. I've never heard of pro-candidate thugs >> hanging around the balloting places, as in third-world countries--the >> nearest to that might be in the last election, when far-right Repubs >> insisted on "monitoring" some black precincts so they could "check >> the eligibility" of minority voters, or the dirty stunts like sending >> out mass mailings advising Democrats that they could only vote the >> day after Republicans did. And I don't think ACORN was ever in any >> position to swipe any ballot boxes... however, they did encourage >> Poor People to vote, which apparently goes against the interests of >> the Real People. >> >> On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:43 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Unless I am over looking an important element, direct elections >>> would not >>> discriminate against any state, no matter how small they are. >>> >>> Just think and be dismayed by how many people in the past won >>> elections with >>> less than majority vote. >>> >>> On the other hand, the Electoral College system can be affected by >>> fraud, >>> where with majority votes, if fairly counted, would not so much be >>> affected >>> by fraud- - - - -not directly anyway, >>> >>> But the intimidation factor could still exist- - -like Black >>> Panthers, or >>> CAIR Thugs, throwing fear into the election precincts, or ACORN >>> swiping >>> ballot boxes, else any other way imaginable. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: 4/2/2010 2:40:30 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >>> weirder . . . >>> >>> I think we should do away with the Electoral College entirely. Sure, >>> it was originally intended to provide a counterweight for states >>> with >>> small populations, but that concern is of less "weight" in modern >>> times. Direct Election seems the rational way to go. >>> WW >>> >>> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Steven wrote: >>> >>>> Read up Don. Only the house was originally elected by the people >>>> in a >>>> democratic way. Heck, we didn't even used to vote for a President. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:50 AM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It just keeps getting weirder and >>>> weirder . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good point Walt, and the basis for my statement that America is a >>>> democracy. >>>> Congress people are elected in direct democratic elections, unlike >>>> the >>>> electoral system of counting used by the executive branch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But still democratic in both systems. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Finally the president gets some well earned plaudits. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >>> grovenet______________________ >>> _ >>> _ >>> _______________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 3 17:57:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:57:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> Good points! Certainly kids should be brought up knowing that the real world is not Disneyland. Camping out in the cold and wet wilderness, going hungry on occasion, even taking a tumble from a tree, bike or skateboard... all are valuable life experiences that every kid should share. And physical dangers should be clearly explained to them, although not emphasized to the point of creating paranoia. But the liability forms are another thing entirely. they are simply a a symptom of our litigious society, when some ambulance-chasing shyster can glom onto an accident victim and persuade a jury that a local entity has unlimited wealth and can afford to lose a few million dollars because of the carelessness of his client (the scalding MacDonald's coffee comes to mind). Yep, the forms are an annoyance. I wish they were unnecessary. And whether they actually prevent lawsuits, i don't really know. WW On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Do you think these forms deter people from filing lawsuits > (frivolous or > legitimate)? > > It seems these forms defy logic. I don't believe a form exists > which can > cover every possible occurrence. > > What about the guy who wanders into the community garden and steps > on a > rake? HE DIDN'T SIGN THE FORM! Of course someone somewhere would > probably > say the whole area will need to be fenced. I'm sure the community > garden > has funds for that - right? My point is, where does this all stop? > > I grew up in upstate New York, in the midst of a variety of > beautiful state > parks. Watkins Glen and Letchworth State Park come to mind. Both > of the > gorges in those parks were carved when the glaciers receded. When > I was > little we enjoyed hiking and camping in those parks. By the time I > was a > teenager, almost all of the trails had fences, most overlooks were > paved and > had walls or fences to "protect the people". In addition there was no > shortage of signs warning of dangers, large and small. This was > most likely > the result of lawsuits. Wouldn't it be sad, if the entire > coastline of > Oregon were fenced to "protect the people"? > > A couple of years ago, there was a news story about a little girl > sitting on > a fence at the coast, when she fell backwards and her dad grabbed > her, just > before she would have fallen down a steep cliff. Everyone talked > about how > dangerous it was and how a better fence should be erected. I agree > this > could have turned into a very sad and tragic situation. But people > need to > realize, the world is fraught with danger and if we continue trying to > "protect the people" (a futile idea), the people will forget to > protect > themselves. I'll bet that family will be much more careful in the > future > and might not have their kids sit on a fence above a cliff to have > their > picture taken. Perhaps other families learned the same lesson. > > The recent TriMet Max train incidents also come to mind. The > tragedy of the > girl who died, might have been prevented had she been more aware. > The world > is not safe and it requires us to be aware of what goes on around us. > > It seems there should be a better way. Because frankly, I don't > want my > daughter to grow up in a world believing everything is safe and she > will be > protected from danger at all times. She needs to learn how to > think for > herself and evaluate situations to determine the risk involved. > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:53 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... > >> It's a pain, alright. The City also requires us to have such a form >> from anyone renting a space in the community garden. >> One can see their point if this may deter even one humongous lawsuit >> from somebody who ruins the classic beauty of his Graeco-Roman nose >> by stepping on a rake, and who then tries to drain the City treasury >> for Pain and Suffering. But as you note, they might also itemize a >> few of the perils your children might reasonably face, including >> terminal boredom. >> >> On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> The summer is almost upon us - despite what the weather is today >>> and I am filling out a form for my daughter's summer activity. >>> >>> I tend to actually read the "Release of Liability" forms but they >>> are increasingly irritating. I understand that we live in a >>> litigious era, and these organizations are only trying to protect >>> themselves, but come on... >>> >>> The latest form states: >>> .....I release and agree to indemnify and hold harmless the >>> Releasees from any and all liabilities incident to my minor child's >>> involvement or participation in these programs as provided above, >>> EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES, to the >>> fullest extent permitted by law. (note: the caps are not mine - >>> they are actually caps on the form) >>> >>> Also on the form in caps again: >>> I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK >>> AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN >>> UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND >>> VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT. >>> >>> What is the value in these forms anyways - has anything changed >>> since every organization requires you to sign a form? Have the >>> rate of lawsuits decreased? >>> >>> I understand an organization would want to inform parents of the >>> risks in which they are allowing their children to participate. >>> But wouldn't a letter describing the risks be better than >>> threatening the parents? >>> >>> What do other people think about this stuff? Sometimes I think >>> I'll refuse to sign another one of these waivers, but all it does >>> is penalize my daughter. >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Apr 4 14:34:12 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:34:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > ...a few > million dollars because of the carelessness of his client (the > scalding MacDonald's coffee comes to mind). Not everybody knows the true story of the McDonald's coffee story. It wasn't merely negligence on McDonalds part. It was found that McDonalds knew it had a dangerous product (there were 700 claims brought against McDonalds for burns before) the lady was not driving (many people think she was) and the car was not even moving. She had 3rd degree burns on 16% of her body and required skin grafts and was disabled for two years because of it. All the testimony overwhelmed the jury with evidence that McDonald's knew it's coffee was too hot (they had been told by experts to turn down the temperature before this happened), it had been warned many times, its own research showed that it was dangerous, and yet it continued to serve it in a condition that was known to cause harm and it had caused harm. The lady wasn't even originally going to sue them (not a case of chasing after a settlement). If you google on McDonald's coffee you'll get lots of hits but I thought you would like to know that this particular case is more about a company willfully injuring people than it is about frivolous law suits. It basically asks the questions, how many times does a company have to be warned that it has a problem before it takes action. If 700 injuries and experts telling you to turn it down aren't enough then a very public law suit may be just the key to protect the rest of us. Katie From waltw at teleport.com Sun Apr 4 17:10:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:10:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> Message-ID: OK, I hadn't known all that. That does make it seem the company was indeed culpable. Question is, why did it take a massive lawsuit to inspire a change? Why the corporate inertia? That being said, I wonder why they made their coffee so damn hot in the first place? They must have literally boiled the grounds for long periods, and that would hardly seem to make good coffee. Maybe they had some weird "economy" rationale. that's usually the reason for an unreasonable corporate action. WW On Apr 4, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > On Apr 3, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> ...a few >> million dollars because of the carelessness of his client (the >> scalding MacDonald's coffee comes to mind). > > Not everybody knows the true story of the McDonald's coffee story. It > wasn't merely negligence on McDonalds part. It was found that > McDonalds knew it had a dangerous product (there were 700 claims > brought against McDonalds for burns before) the lady was not driving > (many people think she was) and the car was not even moving. She had > 3rd degree burns on 16% of her body and required skin grafts and was > disabled for two years because of it. > > All the testimony overwhelmed the jury with evidence that McDonald's > knew it's coffee was too hot (they had been told by experts to turn > down the temperature before this happened), it had been warned many > times, its own research showed that it was dangerous, and yet it > continued to serve it in a condition that was known to cause harm and > it had caused harm. > > The lady wasn't even originally going to sue them (not a case of > chasing after a settlement). > > If you google on McDonald's coffee you'll get lots of hits but I > thought you would like to know that this particular case is more > about a company willfully injuring people than it is about frivolous > law suits. It basically asks the questions, how many times does a > company have to be warned that it has a problem before it takes > action. If 700 injuries and experts telling you to turn it down > aren't enough then a very public law suit may be just the key to > protect the rest of us. > > Katie > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 5 10:35:35 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:35:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BBA1F67.7090802@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100405/48243f85/attachment.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 5 11:32:09 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:32:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: <4BBA1F67.7090802@jurislex.com> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> <4BBA1F67.7090802@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <19E9C07668D94CC9A4109E55CDEA852C@JeffVAIO> So Bob, just out of curiosity: do the release of liability forms actually add any value for an organization? I assume it's the insurance companies who require their customers to obtain the signed forms. Do they gain anything from them? Does it dissuade people from filing suit, or is there evidence the rate of suits have declined? Marian From: Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:35 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... Oh, Katie, how can you ruin a good story that the National Chamber of Commerce just loves to use as an example of a frivolous lawsuit ! ! Shame on you ! ! ! Don't you know that the truth is never a defense to a good political lie ! ! bob "most examples of frivolous lawsuits are just plain wrong" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/4/2010 2:34 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: On Apr 3, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: ...a few million dollars because of the carelessness of his client (the scalding MacDonald's coffee comes to mind). Not everybody knows the true story of the McDonald's coffee story. It wasn't merely negligence on McDonalds part. It was found that McDonalds knew it had a dangerous product (there were 700 claims brought against McDonalds for burns before) the lady was not driving (many people think she was) and the car was not even moving. She had 3rd degree burns on 16% of her body and required skin grafts and was disabled for two years because of it. All the testimony overwhelmed the jury with evidence that McDonald's knew it's coffee was too hot (they had been told by experts to turn down the temperature before this happened), it had been warned many times, its own research showed that it was dangerous, and yet it continued to serve it in a condition that was known to cause harm and it had caused harm. The lady wasn't even originally going to sue them (not a case of chasing after a settlement). If you google on McDonald's coffee you'll get lots of hits but I thought you would like to know that this particular case is more about a company willfully injuring people than it is about frivolous law suits. It basically asks the questions, how many times does a company have to be warned that it has a problem before it takes action. If 700 injuries and experts telling you to turn it down aren't enough then a very public law suit may be just the key to protect the rest of us. Katie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 14:56:17 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 14:56:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% Message-ID: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> The question is will it last to November? http://shar.es/m2K6l From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 5 15:16:14 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:16:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100405/a540c4ca/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 5 15:23:28 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:23:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: <19E9C07668D94CC9A4109E55CDEA852C@JeffVAIO> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> <4BBA1F67.7090802@jurislex.com> <19E9C07668D94CC9A4109E55CDEA852C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BBA62E0.6090107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100405/02f810a7/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 15:34:56 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:34:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> That's true, especially about President Johnson. He is remembered about being the President who signed the civil rights bill. But what's forgotten is that he opposed it while as a Senator from Texas repeatedly during the 1950's. I don't know the what the questions were or who wrote them. But polls are followed by many. Some people make their decisions of political issues based on what polls are saying. I personally don't much trust into polls myself, but I wonder if this is hitting it's peak or just being to grow? Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Actually, not knowing what the questions were that were asked in the > Rasmussen Poll, I think a more significant question is, "What does it > mean" and "Who gives a damn"!! > > Lyndon Johnson may only be a one and a half term President, but he > will always be remembered as the President who got civil rights > through a less than enthusiastic Congress. Similarly, for good or bad > (though hopefully for good), Obama will always be the first non-white > President (and he got the most significant health care bill through in > the last one hundred years!!). Can't ever change that!! > > bob "remember, generally the only polls that count are the ones in May > and November" browning > > On 4/5/2010 2:56 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> The question is will it last to November? >> >> http://shar.es/m2K6l > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 5 15:43:11 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] So this is what Bi-Partisanship looks like . . . Message-ID: <4BBA677F.7030409@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100405/76a3702c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100405/76a3702c/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 5 15:46:47 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:46:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009401cad511$e0714380$a153ca80$@com> > http://shar.es/m2K6l For those interested in the actual questions asked: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/toplines/pt_survey_t oplines/april_2010/toplines_views_on_issues_april_2_3_2010 Enjoy, Jeff From isis23ra at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 15:57:03 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Are you man enough? Tues. 4/610, 12Noon In-Reply-To: <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508798.55296.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> THE MANBAG? Discuss a variety of ?manly problems? like changing concepts of masculinity and feminism?s effect on the ideal. Are you man enough to handle it?? Join Football Coach Buckley and other campus men for this mantastic discussion. Tuesday, April 6th 12:00-1:00PM UC Fireside Sponsor:? CGE Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 5 16:01:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A12D9F0-4A72-4357-9113-0CDE6900A9BB@teleport.com> > > > I don't know the what the questions were or who wrote them. But polls > are followed by many. Some people make their decisions of political > issues based on what polls are saying. And conversely, some "polls" are written and targeted solely to affect people's opinions! ;^) > I personally don't much trust > into polls myself, but I wonder if this is hitting it's peak or just > being to grow? Depends on who you ask, and when and how you ask... see "targeted," above. WW > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> Actually, not knowing what the questions were that were asked in the >> Rasmussen Poll, I think a more significant question is, "What does it >> mean" and "Who gives a damn"!! >> >> Lyndon Johnson may only be a one and a half term President, but he >> will always be remembered as the President who got civil rights >> through a less than enthusiastic Congress. Similarly, for good or bad >> (though hopefully for good), Obama will always be the first non-white >> President (and he got the most significant health care bill >> through in >> the last one hundred years!!). Can't ever change that!! >> >> bob "remember, generally the only polls that count are the ones in >> May >> and November" browning >> >> On 4/5/2010 2:56 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> The question is will it last to November? >>> >>> http://shar.es/m2K6l >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 5 16:27:00 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:27:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Are you man enough? Tues. 4/610, 12Noon In-Reply-To: <508798.55296.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <508798.55296.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a001cad517$7ec78710$7c569530$@com> > Discuss a variety of ?manly problems? like changing concepts > of masculinity and feminism?s effect on the ideal. Are you > man enough to handle it? Are they man enough (I am) for me to show up with shaved head and man skirt (kilt)? *grin* Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 5 19:18:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:18:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBA99D5.000015.00452@DON-B2514E06367> It seems a few polls ask rather innocuous questions, asked of both parties in the same poll. Yet it seems strange that democrats who supported the presidents health care bill, in the poll supported it less than 48%. Republican support was through the floor, so it seems that democrats support would be more than 50%, not less. But polls are strange enough to make it difficult to predict even what seems obvious. Rasmussen has a poll with similar results: This one pitted Tea Party against everyone of both parties. Again the president makes a poor showing. Don =================== ? If it's in the news it's in our polls. ? ? Rasmussen produces some of the most accurate and reliable polls in the country today. ? -Larry Sabato, University of Virginia ? Rasmussen, an organization with fast zeitgeist reflexes.... ? -The Politico ? If it's in the news it's in our polls. ? ? The best place to look for polls that are spot on is RasmussenReports.com ? -Michael Barone, The Washington Examiner` ? If you really want to know what people in America think, you can't find a better place to look than Rasmussen Reports ? -Susan Estrich ? If you have a choice between Rasmussen and, say, the prestigious N.Y.Times go with Rasmussen! ? -Mickey Kaus, Slate Magazine . Home Politics Business Lifestyle Rasmussen Video Political Commentary Recent Polls Video Archive State Portfolio: Select a state ---------- California Florida New York Texas Order "In Search of Self-Governance" Press Room Premium Login Advertisement Advertisement Tea Party 48% Obama 44% Monday, April 05, 2010 Email to a Friend ShareThis.Advertisement On major issues, 48% of voters say that the average Tea Party member is closer to their views than President Barack Obama. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 44% hold the opposite view and believe the president?s views are closer to their own. Not surprisingly, Republicans overwhelmingly feel closer to the Tea Party and most Democrats say that their views are more like Obama?s. Among voters not affiliated with either major political party, 50% say they?re closer to the Tea Party while 38% side with the President. The partisan divide is similar to that found in the President?s Job Approval Ratings and on the Generic Congressional Ballot. ?Unaffiliated voters are continuing the pattern they established in 2006 and 2008 of opposing the party in power,? notes Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports. In his new book, Scott makes the case that ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the right, or the center. They want to govern themselves.? In Search of Self-Governance has received positive reviews from across the political spectrum and is available at Rasmussen Reports and Amazon.com. (Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook. Eighty-seven percent (87%) of those in the Political Class say their views are closer to the president. The Obama Administration has created a significantly larger government and political role in the economy. Sixty-three percent (63%) of Mainstream Americans say their views are closer to the Tea Party. Last week, Rasmussen Reports released data showing that 47% of voters felt closer to the views of Tea Party members than to Congress. Only 26% felt closer to Congress. The new polling found that just 33% believe their views are closer to the average member of a Labor Union than to Congress. In fact, a plurality of voters were undecided when asked about that comparison. While 48% of Democrats said their own views were closer to the average union member, most Republicans and unaffiliated voters could not choose between the two. In a head-to-head comparison, 45% felt closer to the average Tea Party Member while 35% felt closer to the average union member. Fifty-three percent (53%) believe their views are closer to the average school teacher than to Congress. Teachers scored six points higher than the Tea Party members when compared to Congress. In a head-to-head match-up, 47% said they felt closer to the average school teacher while 41% said they felt closer to the average Tea Party member. Once again, the results betray a heavy partisan difference. Democrats prefer the school teachers, Republicans are closer to the Tea Party, and unaffiliated voters are evenly divided. Earlier polling found that just 16% of voters nationwide consider themselves part of the Tea Party Movement. However, views of the Tea Party remain more positive than negative among voters. Just 11% believe Congress is doing a good or an excellent job. Please sign up for the Rasmussen Reports daily e-mail update (it?s free) or follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Let us keep you up to date with the latest public opinion news. See survey questions and toplines. Crosstabs are available to Premium Members only. ShareThis Rasmussen Reports is an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information. The Rasmussen Reports Election Edge? Premium Service offers the most comprehensive public opinion coverage available anywhere. Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports, has been an independent pollster for more than a decade. This national telephone surveys of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted by Rasmussen Reports April 2-3, 2010. The margin of sampling error for the survey is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence (see methodology). TOP STORIES Daily Presidential Tracking Poll 78% Think Jesus Christ Rose from the Dead Ballot vs. the Bench -- Why Sacramento Stumbles By Debra J. Saunders 53% Now Trust Republicans More Than Democrats on Health Care What They Told Us: Reviewing Last Week?s Key Polls Obama Approval Index Month-by-Month President Obama: Another Carter or Another Reagan? By Alfred G. Cuzan Consumer and Investor Confidence Jumps Following Jobs Report One Week Later, 54% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill Partisan Trends: Number of D?s and R?s Both Grow During Health Care Debate Advertisement . ?2010 Rasmussen Reports, LLC About Us | RR In The News | Advertise With Us | Privacy Policy | Terms & Conditions | Contact Us | Careers Media Interviews & Advertising Sales: 732-776-9777 Web development by Kurani Interactive and Mugo Web . -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/5/2010 3:35:20 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% That's true, especially about President Johnson. He is remembered about being the President who signed the civil rights bill. But what's forgotten is that he opposed it while as a Senator from Texas repeatedly during the 1950's. I don't know the what the questions were or who wrote them. But polls are followed by many. Some people make their decisions of political issues based on what polls are saying. I personally don't much trust into polls myself, but I wonder if this is hitting it's peak or just being to grow? Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Actually, not knowing what the questions were that were asked in the > Rasmussen Poll, I think a more significant question is, "What does it > mean" and "Who gives a damn"!! > > Lyndon Johnson may only be a one and a half term President, but he > will always be remembered as the President who got civil rights > through a less than enthusiastic Congress. Similarly, for good or bad > (though hopefully for good), Obama will always be the first non-white > President (and he got the most significant health care bill through in > the last one hundred years!!). Can't ever change that!! > > bob "remember, generally the only polls that count are the ones in May > and November" browning > > On 4/5/2010 2:56 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> The question is will it last to November? >> >> http://shar.es/m2K6l > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100405/0397500d/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 5 19:19:42 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:19:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If not, why not? Comments of Rasmussen Report. -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/5/2010 3:35:20 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% That's true, especially about President Johnson. He is remembered about being the President who signed the civil rights bill. But what's forgotten is that he opposed it while as a Senator from Texas repeatedly during the 1950's. I don't know the what the questions were or who wrote them. But polls are followed by many. Some people make their decisions of political issues based on what polls are saying. I personally don't much trust into polls myself, but I wonder if this is hitting it's peak or just being to grow? Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Actually, not knowing what the questions were that were asked in the > Rasmussen Poll, I think a more significant question is, "What does it > mean" and "Who gives a damn"!! > > Lyndon Johnson may only be a one and a half term President, but he > will always be remembered as the President who got civil rights > through a less than enthusiastic Congress. Similarly, for good or bad > (though hopefully for good), Obama will always be the first non-white > President (and he got the most significant health care bill through in > the last one hundred years!!). Can't ever change that!! > > bob "remember, generally the only polls that count are the ones in May > and November" browning > > On 4/5/2010 2:56 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> The question is will it last to November? >> >> http://shar.es/m2K6l > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100405/23beff82/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 5 20:24:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:24:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If not, why not? > ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the right, or the center. They want to govern themselves.? Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I don't see that as the issue. "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern themselves'?" "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, and the military?" You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 earthquake in Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of life and destruction were significantly different. There were many factors, of course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the governments of Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The damage in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were lower. Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free enterprise. Who do you want to govern building standards? David From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 5 22:22:06 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:22:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... In-Reply-To: <4BBA62E0.6090107@jurislex.com> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <9DFF0F84-BF94-4933-BE31-4128488DD93F@teleport.com> <4BBA1F67.7090802@jurislex.com> <19E9C07668D94CC9A4109E55CDEA852C@JeffVAIO> <4BBA62E0.6090107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8BEFA4C29B7D4D789665529C9B28D38A@JeffVAIO> You wrote: "... a waiver will typically be invalid if the person in favor of whom the waiver runs has committed gross negligence or intentional acts." The statement on the form says: "I, for myself and on behalf of my heirs, assigns, personal representatives and next of kin, HEREBY RELEASE, INDEMNIFY, AND HOLD HARMLESS 'unnamed organization', their officers, officials, agents and/or employees, other participants, sponsoring agencies, sponsors, advertisers, and, if applicable, owners and lessors of premises used for the activity ("Releasees"), WITH ANY RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss of damage to person property, WHETHER ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE, to the fullest extent permitted by law." It makes you feel like an irresponsible parent to sign this form and still send your child off to be supervised by the people who say they aren't responsible. I know this organization regards safety as one of their utmost concerns, but when you read this release, you feel downright awful. If something were to happen, and someone reminded the parent of their signed release, do you think the parent would say "oh well" and go on their merry way, or would it actually incite more anger? Perhaps these liability releases actually increase the rate of lawsuits! I know I shouldn't take this stuff so seriously, but the logic (or lack of), just doesn't agree with me. It feels downright unethical because you can sign the waiver and still turn around and file a suit - so what's the point? Marian From: Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:23 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kids liability forms... Marian, in answer to your question, Oregon law does generally allow waivers of liability (the statutes are silent as to waivers, but several court cases and common usage do not prevent their use), but a waiver will typically be invalid if the person in favor of whom the waiver runs has committed gross negligence or intentional acts. Gross negligence is if an injury results because of reckless behavior. If you are interested in the intersection of the law and waivers in a particular non-Oregon case, you may want to go here: http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2009/11/sweat-lodge-lawsuit-makes-guru-break-into-sweat.html bob "I de judge" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/5/2010 11:32 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: So Bob, just out of curiosity: do the release of liability forms actually add any value for an organization? I assume it's the insurance companies who require their customers to obtain the signed forms. Do they gain anything from them? Does it dissuade people from filing suit, or is there evidence the rate of suits have declined? Marian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 06:29:39 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 06:29:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People have different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when self governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a court system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other "public" services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you could argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend countless hours arguing over this. ;-) As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I would say contractors who have spent their career building and working in the industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and what shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, it can be a private professional organization. This is something our government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run groups like building inspection, they should set standards that private groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. You go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to cabling to house building and so on. Adam David Morelli wrote: > On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > > >> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If not, why not? >> >> > > ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the right, or the center. They want to govern themselves.? > > Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I don't see that as the issue. > > "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern themselves'?" > > "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" > > "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, and the military?" > > You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 earthquake in Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of life and destruction were significantly different. There were many factors, of course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the governments of Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The damage in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were lower. Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free enterprise. > > Who do you want to govern building standards? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 07:09:54 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:09:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201cad592$d88903c0$899b0b40$@net> I don't know. Take the landscaping contractor's board. There are private Individuals who can go look for violations. These bounty hunters get paid by the fines they put in. You might even think that they are state officials, but they are not. This group has grown their reach from planting a flower to inside plumbing. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Adam Mayer > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:30 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > > As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I would > say > contractors who have spent their career building and working in the > industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and what > shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, it > can > be a private professional organization. This is something our > government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run > groups like building inspection, they should set standards that private > groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. You > go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the > government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have > professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what > doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to > cabling to house building and so on. > > Adam From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 07:15:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:15:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A96F0B3-0088-4C48-BB2A-3093E1C996F9@teleport.com> The trouble with having contractors in charge of building standards is that contractors will instinctively try to cut corners, build "on the cheap" and maximize their own profits. I think it had best remain an adversarial relationship, otherwise you are putting the foxes in charge of the henhouse. WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you > talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No > governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People > have > different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when self > governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a court > system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other "public" > services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you > could > argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend > countless hours arguing over this. ;-) > > As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I > would say > contractors who have spent their career building and working in the > industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and what > shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, > it can > be a private professional organization. This is something our > government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run > groups like building inspection, they should set standards that > private > groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. You > go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the > government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have > professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what > doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to > cabling to house building and so on. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? >>> If not, why not? >>> >>> >> >> ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the >> right, or the center. They want to govern themselves.? >> >> Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I >> don't see that as the issue. >> >> "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern themselves'?" >> >> "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" >> >> "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, >> and the military?" >> >> You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 >> earthquake in Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. >> The loss of life and destruction were significantly different. >> There were many factors, of course, and it would be appropriate to >> realize that the governments of Chile and Mexico have government >> imposed building standards. The damage in Haiti was greater in >> part because the building standards were lower. Haiti buildings >> have less government interference and more free enterprise. >> >> Who do you want to govern building standards? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 07:24:01 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 07:24:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> I would much prefer to have an impartial third party to provide service regarding police, fire, schools and even building standards! ESPECIALLY BUILDING STANDARDS! The greed in private industry does not lend itself to making sure things are done correctly. The money talks, and corners get cut to put dollars in someone's pocket. If private industry is in charge of building and overseeing our highways, roads, bridges, homes and office buildings, it could balloon into a very lucrative private industry based on fraud and abuse. No thanks, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Adam Mayer" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:29 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you > talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No > governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People have > different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when self > governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a court > system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other "public" > services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you could > argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend > countless hours arguing over this. ;-) > > As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I would say > contractors who have spent their career building and working in the > industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and what > shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, it can > be a private professional organization. This is something our > government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run > groups like building inspection, they should set standards that private > groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. You > go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the > government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have > professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what > doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to > cabling to house building and so on. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If not, >>> why not? >>> >>> >> >> ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the right, >> or the center. They want to govern themselves.? >> >> Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I don't see >> that as the issue. >> >> "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern themselves'?" >> >> "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" >> >> "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, and the >> military?" >> >> You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 earthquake in >> Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of life and >> destruction were significantly different. There were many factors, of >> course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the governments of >> Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The damage >> in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were lower. >> Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free >> enterprise. >> >> Who do you want to govern building standards? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 07:43:48 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:43:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <000001cad597$91a973e0$b4fc5ba0$@net> There is greed in politics too. It is not impartial. Mayor Kidd pushed a tax on businesses in the downtown district. The district meandered around his property, so he avoided the tax. Smelled like dead fish. I sometimes wonder if morals are a crazy idea pushed on to the meek. It seems that government and business avoid them if they are to succeed. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 7:24 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > I would much prefer to have an impartial third party to provide service > regarding police, fire, schools and even building standards! > ESPECIALLY > BUILDING STANDARDS! > > The greed in private industry does not lend itself to making sure > things are > done correctly. The money talks, and corners get cut to put dollars in > someone's pocket. If private industry is in charge of building and > overseeing our highways, roads, bridges, homes and office buildings, it > could balloon into a very lucrative private industry based on fraud and > abuse. > > No thanks, > Marian listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 09:46:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:46:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> I agree with the need to establish construction standards and make them law. I can't speak to construction codes in general as it has been many years since I last built a house, but I learned the value of overkill from my father who was (officially) a builder from 1945 to 1962. Electrical wiring systems he installed included ground wires long before they were required by code. As a retired electrician I can speak to the National Electric Code which is a national standard, but even today it is not governed by law, yet is enforced by local (state/county) building and specialty inspectors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code I suppose that by being declared law, NEC would have a hard time updating the code book to ever evolving new standards. Should it be a law anyway? Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/6/2010 7:20:41 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% I would much prefer to have an impartial third party to provide service regarding police, fire, schools and even building standards! ESPECIALLY BUILDING STANDARDS! The greed in private industry does not lend itself to making sure things are done correctly. The money talks, and corners get cut to put dollars in someone's pocket. If private industry is in charge of building and overseeing our highways, roads, bridges, homes and office buildings, it could balloon into a very lucrative private industry based on fraud and abuse. No thanks, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Adam Mayer" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:29 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you > talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No > governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People have > different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when self > governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a court > system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other "public" > services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you could > argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend > countless hours arguing over this. ;-) > > As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I would say > contractors who have spent their career building and working in the > industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and what > shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, it can > be a private professional organization. This is something our > government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run > groups like building inspection, they should set standards that private > groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. You > go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the > government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have > professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what > doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to > cabling to house building and so on. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If not, >>> why not? >>> >>> >> >> ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the right, >> or the center. They want to govern themselves.? >> >> Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I don't see >> that as the issue. >> >> "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern themselves'?" >> >> "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" >> >> "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, and the >> military?" >> >> You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 earthquake in >> Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of life and >> destruction were significantly different. There were many factors, of >> course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the governments of >> Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The damage >> in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were lower. >> Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free >> enterprise. >> >> Who do you want to govern building standards? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/20fddc5e/attachment.gif From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 10:08:21 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:08:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <001501cad5ab$c2e4aa10$48adfe30$@net> Standards can actually hold back new techniques. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:46 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > I agree with the need to establish construction standards and make them > law. > > > > I can't speak to construction codes in general as it has been many > years since I last built a house, but I learned the value of overkill > from my father who was (officially) a builder from 1945 to 1962. > > > > Electrical wiring systems he installed included ground wires long > before they were required by code. > > > > As a retired electrician I can speak to the National Electric Code > which is a national standard, but even today it is not governed by law, > yet is enforced by local (state/county) building and specialty > inspectors. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code > > > > I suppose that by being declared law, NEC would have a hard time > updating the code book to ever evolving new standards. > > > > Should it be a law anyway? > > > > Don > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Marian Cakarnis > > Date: 4/6/2010 7:20:41 AM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > > > I would much prefer to have an impartial third party to provide service > > regarding police, fire, schools and even building standards! > ESPECIALLY > > BUILDING STANDARDS! > > > > The greed in private industry does not lend itself to making sure > things are > > done correctly. The money talks, and corners get cut to put dollars in > > someone's pocket. If private industry is in charge of building and > > overseeing our highways, roads, bridges, homes and office buildings, it > > could balloon into a very lucrative private industry based on fraud and > > abuse. > > > > No thanks, > > Marian > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Adam Mayer" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:29 AM > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > > > > I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you > > > talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No > > > governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People > > have > > > different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when > self > > > governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a > court > > > system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other > "public" > > > services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you > > could > > > argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend > > > countless hours arguing over this. ;-) > > > > > > As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I would > > say > > > contractors who have spent their career building and working in the > > > industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and > what > > > shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, it > > can > > > be a private professional organization. This is something our > > > government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run > > > groups like building inspection, they should set standards that > > private > > > groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. > You > > > go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the > > > government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have > > > professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what > > > doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to > > > cabling to house building and so on. > > > > > > Adam > > > > > > David Morelli wrote: > > >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? If > >>> not, > > >>> why not? > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> "the American people don't want to be governed from the left, the > >> right, > > >> or the center. They want to govern themselves." > > >> > > >> Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I don't > >> see > > >> that as the issue. > > >> > > >> "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern > themselves'?" > > >> > > >> "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" > > >> > > >> "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, and > >> the > > >> military?" > > >> > > >> You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 earthquake > >> in > > >> Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of life > >> and > > >> destruction were significantly different. There were many factors, > >> of > > >> course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the governments > >> of > > >> Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The > >> damage > > >> in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were > lower. > > >> Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free > > >> enterprise. > > >> > > >> Who do you want to govern building standards? > > >> > > >> David > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 10:45:33 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:45:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . Message-ID: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/3ac2fd57/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ewlogo-print.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/3ac2fd57/attachment.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 11:19:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:19:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> I agree that non biased textbooks should be used in schools. Creative history has value only to the person who created the history. But if governments insist on creating history, there is a remedy available to Americans. ?Where the element of good faith is absent in those who possess governing authority, government?s very purpose no longer exists and those in that society revert back to a state of nature, possessing the natural power to reinstitute new forms of government that they deem best to preserve freedom and rights. To this end, the Declaration of Independence of 1776 was executed by each body-politic in America: the thirteen colonies, acting independently for each society, creating independent and sovereign states.? Read article: http://libertydefenseleague.com/2010/04/06/impeach-the- "Creating independent and sovereign states." That seems pretty clear doesn't it? Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/6/2010 10:45:55 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . Just another note . . . bob "just the provable facts, ma'am" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Published Online: April 6, 2010 Tenn. Dad Wants Biology Textbook Banned for 'Myth' By The Associated Press Knoxville, Tenn. The father of a Knox County public school student wants the school board to get rid of a high school biology textbook that he calls biased against Christians. The board was scheduled Monday evening to consider Kurt Zimmerman's appeal of a review panel's finding in favor of the book. The Knoxville News Sentinel reported Zimmerman wants a change of textbooks because the honors biology course book used at Farragut High School describes creationism as a "biblical myth." He is asking that what he termed non-biased textbooks be used. School superintendent Jim McIntyre said the committee's finding to keep using the book was appropriate. He asked the board to both hear Zimmerman's appeal and uphold the committee's recommendation. A decision is expected Wednesday. Zimmerman asked in December that the school immediately quit using the book Asking About Life" in his son's class and all classes. He said it could "mislead, belittle and discourage students in believing in creationism and pointedly calls the Bible a myth." The newspaper reported Zimmerman's documentation included a quotation from page 319 on which the authors describe creationism as "the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo-Christian God in 7 days." A six-person textbook review committee concluded the material wasn't questionable and recommended the book not be banned. One of the reviewers wrote that in context, the word myth was appropriately used to "describe a traditional or legendary story with or without a natural explanation." Another reviewer concluded the writers used the word myth "for shock value." Among members of the review board were Farragut's principal, a biology teacher, a parent and a student. McIntyre said this is the first time in his first two years as superintendent that a parent has asked that a textbook be banned. Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/5dfacb15/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/5dfacb15/attachment-0001.gif From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 12:18:56 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:18:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Time to change the subject ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <4BBB8920.6090902@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/e1ad719a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 1874 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/e1ad719a/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 909 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/e1ad719a/attachment-0001.png From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 12:27:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:27:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7D6924BE-6BD2-4D05-B0FE-94961618F7D0@teleport.com> The NEC does include a lot of anachronisms as it is, but yes, I agree, it ought to be kept free to evolve without having to go through the lawmaking process for every change. On Apr 6, 2010, at 9:46 AM, donkelly wrote: > I agree with the need to establish construction standards and make > them law. > > I can't speak to construction codes in general as it has been many > years > since I last built a house, but I learned the value of overkill > from my > father who was (officially) a builder from 1945 to 1962. > > Electrical wiring systems he installed included ground wires long > before > they were required by code. > > As a retired electrician I can speak to the National Electric Code > which is > a national standard, but even today it is not governed by law, yet is > enforced by local (state/county) building and specialty inspectors. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code > > I suppose that by being declared law, NEC would have a hard time > updating > the code book to ever evolving new standards. > > Should it be a law anyway? > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Marian Cakarnis > Date: 4/6/2010 7:20:41 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > > I would much prefer to have an impartial third party to provide > service > regarding police, fire, schools and even building standards! > ESPECIALLY > BUILDING STANDARDS! > > The greed in private industry does not lend itself to making sure > things are > done correctly. The money talks, and corners get cut to put > dollars in > someone's pocket. If private industry is in charge of building and > overseeing our highways, roads, bridges, homes and office > buildings, it > could balloon into a very lucrative private industry based on fraud > and > abuse. > > No thanks, > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Adam Mayer" > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:29 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% > >> I think the question to ask is what level of self governance are you >> talking about. Full governance is anarchy which doesn't work. No >> governance is North Korea which may implode any month now. People >> have >> different levels of comfort when it comes to governance, but when >> self >> governance is higher you have more freedom. Now you must have a >> court >> system, one of the main purposes of government. As for other >> "public" >> services such as police, fire department, schools and others, you >> could >> argue to privatize these services. I know many people who do spend >> countless hours arguing over this. ;-) >> >> As for building standards, who would I want to govern them? I >> would say >> contractors who have spent their career building and working in the >> industry. They would have the best knowledge of what is safe and >> what >> shouldn't be built. This doesn't have to be a government agency, >> it can >> be a private professional organization. This is something our >> government has missed for years, instead of using tax dollars to run >> groups like building inspection, they should set standards that >> private >> groups must meet and then charge them to obtain a yearly license. >> You >> go from spending tax dollars to making money. You still have the >> government overlooking for those who feel safer with it and you have >> professionals who work in the real world who know what works and what >> doesn't. This can be applied from almost everything, from barbers to >> cabling to house building and so on. >> >> Adam >> >> David Morelli wrote: >>> On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>> >>>> So what with polls is going on? Are they anywhere near correct? >>>> If not, >>>> why not? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ?the American people don?t want to be governed from the left, the >>> right, >>> or the center. They want to govern themselves.? >>> >>> Likely 80-100% of American would agree with that statement. I >>> don't see >>> that as the issue. >>> >>> "Who will govern those in society who refuse to 'govern >>> themselves'?" >>> >>> "Who will make rules to govern disputes?" >>> >>> "Who do you want to govern your police agencies, school system, >>> and the >>> military?" >>> >>> You could review the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti with the 8.8 >>> earthquake in >>> Chile, and the 7.2 earthquake in Mexicali, Mexico. The loss of >>> life and >>> destruction were significantly different. There were many >>> factors, of >>> course, and it would be appropriate to realize that the >>> governments of >>> Chile and Mexico have government imposed building standards. The >>> damage >>> in Haiti was greater in part because the building standards were >>> lower. >>> Haiti buildings have less government interference and more free >>> enterprise. >>> >>> Who do you want to govern building standards? >>> >>> David >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 6 12:45:37 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:45:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Time to change the subject ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BBB8920.6090902@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB8920.6090902@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <01ca01cad5c1$bb55b080$32011180$@com> > From: Bob Browning > > VATICAN CITY - The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI > on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the > actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic > "hate" campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to > abortion and same-sex marriage. Surely these men are not only intelligent enough, but also learned enough to have been introduced to or at least have knowledge of the most elemental of logical fallacies, eh? You *know* they're on the run when they resort to a Red Herring. Jeff [For those who aren't familiar with a Red Herring] http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/red-herring/ From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 12:58:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:58:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Hey, let the fundamentalist noodle have what he asks for... let him have Biblical Creationism printed alongside Evolution and Geological History... but why stop with just the Christian Creation? Heck, let's also throw in the Norse creation stories (love that Nidhogg-- now THERE"S a Dark Force for you!), the Zoroastrian creation myth (Gods of Light vs. Dark, what a concept), the Shinto version (lots of kids with Japanese ancestry in the schools, after all) and a lot of the African creation stories as well... plus of course the American Indian creations, this being their homeland and all... Yeah, this is a solution that should please everyone! Wouldn't it? Especially the hypersensitive Mr. Zimmerman? Yeah, I'm just SURE he would be pleased as punch to give equal billion to all them other religions! Yep, this solution should please everyone-- including the textbook publishers, who could thus bulk up their textbooks by about 50%, and their prices by about 75%. Everyone except the kids, of course, who'd have to devote extra hours of homework in order to distinguish Surt from Ahiram, or Sif from Bes. But that's a small price to pay to keep the medieval religious absolutist fanatics content, isn't it? ;^) WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Just another note . . . > > bob "just the provable facts, ma'am" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Published Online: April 6, 2010 > Tenn. Dad Wants Biology Textbook Banned for 'Myth' > > By The Associated Press > > Knoxville, Tenn. > The father of a Knox County public school student wants the school > board to get rid of a high school biology textbook that he calls > biased against Christians. > > The board was scheduled Monday evening to consider Kurt Zimmerman's > appeal of a review panel's finding in favor of the book. > > The Knoxville News Sentinel reported Zimmerman wants a change of > textbooks because the honors biology course book used at Farragut > High School describes creationism as a "biblical myth." He is > asking that what he termed non-biased textbooks be used. > > School superintendent Jim McIntyre said the committee's finding to > keep using the book was appropriate. He asked the board to both > hear Zimmerman's appeal and uphold the committee's recommendation. > A decision is expected Wednesday. > > Zimmerman asked in December that the school immediately quit using > the book "Asking About Life" in his son's class and all classes. > > He said it could "mislead, belittle and discourage students in > believing in creationism and pointedly calls the Bible a myth." > > The newspaper reported Zimmerman's documentation included a > quotation from page 319 on which the authors describe creationism > as "the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo- > Christian God in 7 days." > > A six-person textbook review committee concluded the material > wasn't questionable and recommended the book not be banned. > > One of the reviewers wrote that in context, the word myth was > appropriately used to "describe a traditional or legendary story > with or without a natural explanation." > > Another reviewer concluded the writers used the word myth "for > shock value." > > Among members of the review board were Farragut's principal, a > biology teacher, a parent and a student. > > McIntyre said this is the first time in his first two years as > superintendent that a parent has asked that a textbook be banned. > > Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 13:01:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:01:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: OK, so we break up one large and powerful nation into 50 feeble but independent nations, so that the predominant religious sect in each sovereign state could impose its history upon everyone in that state? On Apr 6, 2010, at 11:19 AM, donkelly wrote: > I agree that non biased textbooks should be used in schools. > > Creative history has value only to the person who created the history. > > But if governments insist on creating history, there is a remedy > available > to Americans. > > ?Where the element of good faith is absent in those who possess > governing > authority, government?s very purpose no longer exists and those in > that > society revert back to a state of nature, possessing the natural > power to > reinstitute new forms of government that they deem best to preserve > freedom > and rights. To this end, the Declaration of Independence of 1776 was > executed by each body-politic in America: the thirteen colonies, > acting > independently for each society, creating independent and sovereign > states.? > > Read article: http://libertydefenseleague.com/2010/04/06/impeach-the- > "Creating independent and sovereign states." That seems pretty > clear doesn't > it? > > Donkelly > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/6/2010 10:45:55 AM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves > forward . . . . . > > Just another note . . . > > bob "just the provable facts, ma'am" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > Published Online: April 6, 2010 > Tenn. Dad Wants Biology Textbook Banned for 'Myth' > By The Associated Press > > Knoxville, Tenn. > The father of a Knox County public school student wants the school > board to > get rid of a high school biology textbook that he calls biased against > Christians. > The board was scheduled Monday evening to consider Kurt Zimmerman's > appeal > of a review panel's finding in favor of the book. > The Knoxville News Sentinel reported Zimmerman wants a change of > textbooks > because the honors biology course book used at Farragut High School > describes creationism as a "biblical myth." He is asking that what > he termed > non-biased textbooks be used. > School superintendent Jim McIntyre said the committee's finding to > keep > using the book was appropriate. He asked the board to both hear > Zimmerman's > appeal and uphold the committee's recommendation. A decision is > expected > Wednesday. > Zimmerman asked in December that the school immediately quit using > the book > Asking About Life" in his son's class and all classes. > He said it could "mislead, belittle and discourage students in > believing in > creationism and pointedly calls the Bible a myth." > The newspaper reported Zimmerman's documentation included a > quotation from > page 319 on which the authors describe creationism as "the biblical > myth > that the universe was created by the Judeo-Christian God in 7 days." > A six-person textbook review committee concluded the material wasn't > questionable and recommended the book not be banned. > One of the reviewers wrote that in context, the word myth was > appropriately > used to "describe a traditional or legendary story with or without > a natural > explanation." > Another reviewer concluded the writers used the word myth "for > shock value." > Among members of the review board were Farragut's principal, a biology > teacher, a parent and a student. > McIntyre said this is the first time in his first two years as > superintendent that a parent has asked that a textbook be banned. > Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not > be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. > > > > > print1.jpg>________________ > _______________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 13:08:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:08:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Time to change the subject ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <01ca01cad5c1$bb55b080$32011180$@com> References: <4BBB8920.6090902@jurislex.com> <01ca01cad5c1$bb55b080$32011180$@com> Message-ID: <71FC7302-57DA-49F2-A014-45D3D873E5B1@teleport.com> Also in prominent use is the fallacy of attacking the messenger... The doctrine of papal infallibility is such a straitjacket on the Pope that he really may have no choice but to "stand firm..." possibly the worst thing he could do if he were in ordinary life. WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> VATICAN CITY - The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI >> on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the >> actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic >> "hate" campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to >> abortion and same-sex marriage. > > Surely these men are not only intelligent enough, but also learned > enough to > have been introduced to or at least have knowledge of the most > elemental of > logical fallacies, eh? You *know* they're on the run when they > resort to a > Red Herring. > > Jeff > > [For those who aren't familiar with a Red Herring] > http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/red-herring/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 13:29:28 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:29:28 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I m all for it. You'd see how they interrelate. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:58:11 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . Hey, let the fundamentalist noodle have what he asks for... let him have Biblical Creationism printed alongside Evolution and Geological History... but why stop with just the Christian Creation? Heck, let's also throw in the Norse creation stories (love that Nidhogg-- now THERE"S a Dark Force for you!), the Zoroastrian creation myth (Gods of Light vs. Dark, what a concept), the Shinto version (lots of kids with Japanese ancestry in the schools, after all) and a lot of the African creation stories as well... plus of course the American Indian creations, this being their homeland and all... Yeah, this is a solution that should please everyone! Wouldn't it? Especially the hypersensitive Mr. Zimmerman? Yeah, I'm just SURE he would be pleased as punch to give equal billion to all them other religions! Yep, this solution should please everyone-- including the textbook publishers, who could thus bulk up their textbooks by about 50%, and their prices by about 75%. Everyone except the kids, of course, who'd have to devote extra hours of homework in order to distinguish Surt from Ahiram, or Sif from Bes. But that's a small price to pay to keep the medieval religious absolutist fanatics content, isn't it? ;^) WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Just another note . . . > > bob "just the provable facts, ma'am" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Published Online: April 6, 2010 > Tenn. Dad Wants Biology Textbook Banned for 'Myth' > > By The Associated Press > > Knoxville, Tenn. > The father of a Knox County public school student wants the school > board to get rid of a high school biology textbook that he calls > biased against Christians. > > The board was scheduled Monday evening to consider Kurt Zimmerman's > appeal of a review panel's finding in favor of the book. > > The Knoxville News Sentinel reported Zimmerman wants a change of > textbooks because the honors biology course book used at Farragut > High School describes creationism as a "biblical myth." He is > asking that what he termed non-biased textbooks be used. > > School superintendent Jim McIntyre said the committee's finding to > keep using the book was appropriate. He asked the board to both > hear Zimmerman's appeal and uphold the committee's recommendation. > A decision is expected Wednesday. > > Zimmerman asked in December that the school immediately quit using > the book "Asking About Life" in his son's class and all classes. > > He said it could "mislead, belittle and discourage students in > believing in creationism and pointedly calls the Bible a myth." > > The newspaper reported Zimmerman's documentation included a > quotation from page 319 on which the authors describe creationism > as "the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo- > Christian God in 7 days." > > A six-person textbook review committee concluded the material > wasn't questionable and recommended the book not be banned. > > One of the reviewers wrote that in context, the word myth was > appropriately used to "describe a traditional or legendary story > with or without a natural explanation." > > Another reviewer concluded the writers used the word myth "for > shock value." > > Among members of the review board were Farragut's principal, a > biology teacher, a parent and a student. > > McIntyre said this is the first time in his first two years as > superintendent that a parent has asked that a textbook be banned. > > Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 6 13:51:54 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:51:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> > From: Steve > > I'm all for it. You'd see how they interrelate. And are inspired by each other. And who stole what portion of their idea of "history" from who. And the gross inaccuracies each continues to promote. And so on. At that point, however, we're talking about a world religions or worldviews class. Disproven religious perspective (like creationism) doesn't belong in science classes where scientific fact does a fine job of answering questions already. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 13:58:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:58:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Good news. The president's attempt to nationalize communications has failed, but we need to stay alert because he will try to control communications through this vital industry again. So we won't be another China tomorrow, but keep your eyes open for further attempts. Don ========================== WONDERFUL NEWS, PRINCIPLED PATRIOTS! Just as it did repeatedly during the FDR reign of socialism, The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has struck down the unconstitutional ambitions of the Obama White House. So-called "Net Neutrality" would have given the White House the power to censor us that only China has exercised on such a scale before now. Just imagine having no ability to network with fellow patriots online? No "unapproved" news? No Glenn Beck? No way to get the information we all need to make informed decisions? Now Congress will have to pass such legislation to give Obama the chance to strangle our 1st Amendment Rights as he apparently wishes to do. Boy, this is great news! I have a huge smile on my face as I type this. Few things could have made me as happy as this news makes me this morning. This is not only historic and liberating, it buys us time. Time to identify, recruit, educate, and train more Principled Patriots. Time to find the "Golden" Americans who are fed up ready to join us, and who will adhere to the principles of freedom they learn about as they read the books we'll refer them to. I'll say some more words on this subject, but first, here's the story: April 6, 2010 8:15 AM PDT Court: FCC has no power to regulate Net neutrality -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/583d2e70/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 14:07:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:07:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Well Jeff, not appropriate in all science classes for sure, but Biology might be an exception. As for listing creationists for all peoples, a thousand page textbook would not in all likelyhood do that, but since America was founded by Christians, they might get a nod in text books, especially in history. A portion of history about our native Indian history might include brief text that they came from below the ground, and evolved from animals. Otherwise, where does the line get drawn? Search me, but I assure all I do not have the answer. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/6/2010 1:52:15 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . > From: Steve > > I'm all for it. You'd see how they interrelate. And are inspired by each other. And who stole what portion of their idea of "history" from who. And the gross inaccuracies each continues to promote. And so on. At that point, however, we're talking about a world religions or worldviews class. Disproven religious perspective (like creationism) doesn't belong in science classes where scientific fact does a fine job of answering questions already. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/8382bc14/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 14:21:02 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! Message-ID: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/90be5a70/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/90be5a70/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: politico_logo_108.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5898 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/90be5a70/attachment.jpg From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 14:22:53 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBBA62D.7020902@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/ee151858/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 14:26:49 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:26:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/eed7c644/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 6 14:29:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01e001cad5d0$38398cd0$a8aca670$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well Jeff, not appropriate in all science classes for sure, but > Biology might be an exception. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That "might" is a *huge* might, as in infinitesimally small to the point of non-existent. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] but since America was founded by Christians, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No, it was not. Stop promoting this myth about our country's history. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Otherwise, where does the line get drawn? Search me, but I assure > all I do not have the answer. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's easy. If it's religious, it does not belong, unless the matter can stand up to scrutiny on its own without its religious connections or underpinnings (in which case it isn't religious). Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 6 14:29:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> > From: donkelly > > [...] No Glenn Beck? [...] Oh, what a better place the world would be..... Jeff From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 14:34:08 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:34:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <06DCF708-782D-43A1-B85E-D211768DA69E@verizon.net> I always laugh a little bit to myself when I'm with a group and half of them are 'tresspassers' and half are 'debtors'. Nobody ever knows which one to say... Katie Usually the debtors win but I think it is just because there are fewer syllables. On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Actually, we started out this way and if we had stayed that way we > would still be part of England and our state religion would be > Anglican!!! > > bob "and we would be saying 'trespasses' and not 'debts'" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/6/2010 1:01 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >> OK, so we break up one large and powerful nation into 50 feeble but >> independent nations, so that the predominant religious sect in each >> sovereign state could impose its history upon everyone in that state? >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 14:35:36 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:35:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Steve >> >> I'm all for it. You'd see how they interrelate. > > And are inspired by each other. > > And who stole what portion of their idea of "history" from who. > > And the gross inaccuracies each continues to promote. > > And so on. > > At that point, however, we're talking about a world religions or > worldviews > class. > > Disproven religious perspective (like creationism) doesn't belong > in science > classes where scientific fact does a fine job of answering questions > already. > > Jeff Yep. Religious mythology is actually the "popular science" of the Bronze Age, and as such should be taught as part of the "history of science" rather than as "alternative science," for which the evidence is limited to ancient texts and blind faith. WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 6 14:40:52 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:40:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: <06DCF708-782D-43A1-B85E-D211768DA69E@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> <06DCF708-782D-43A1-B85E-D211768DA69E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBBAA64.4020808@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/518ec36a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/518ec36a/attachment.jpe From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 14:43:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:43:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> Message-ID: <4BBBAB16.00004C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Glen is certainly a thorn in the foot. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/6/2010 2:29:31 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . > From: donkelly > > [...] No Glenn Beck? [...] Oh, what a better place the world would be..... Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/a2698059/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 14:46:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:46:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8E24F9E7-8F85-42D8-BC6F-1ABD6EB0D5B5@teleport.com> yeah, I'm all about Freedom of Speech and Communication... but the arch little phrase, "Time to identify, recruit, educate, and train more Principled Patriots. Time to find the "Golden" Americans who are fed up ready to join us, and who will adhere to the principles of freedom they learn about as they read the books we'll refer them to." --makes me just a bit uneasy... Could be translated as, "time to find the hotheads and malcontents and paranoiacs and indoctrinate them with the ideas we approve of, with books that reflect our own view of reality, and train them..." train them for what? Yep, I'm all for freedom of speech. But I'm also in favor of freedom of thought. On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:58 PM, donkelly wrote: > Good news. The president's attempt to nationalize communications > has failed, > but we need to stay alert because he will try to control > communications > through this vital industry again. > > So we won't be another China tomorrow, but keep your eyes open for > further > attempts. > > Don > ========================== > > WONDERFUL NEWS, PRINCIPLED PATRIOTS! > > > Just as it did repeatedly during the FDR reign of socialism, The > U.S. Court > of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has struck down the unconstitutional > ambitions of the Obama White House. So-called "Net Neutrality" > would have > given the White House the power to censor us that only China has > exercised > on such a scale before now. Just imagine having no ability to > network with > fellow patriots online? No "unapproved" news? No Glenn Beck? No way > to get > the information we all need to make informed decisions? > > > Now Congress will have to pass such legislation to give Obama the > chance to > strangle our 1st Amendment Rights as he apparently wishes to do. > Boy, this > is great news! > > > I have a huge smile on my face as I type this. Few things could > have made me > as happy as this news makes me this morning. This is not only > historic and > liberating, it buys us time. Time to identify, recruit, educate, > and train > more Principled Patriots. Time to find the "Golden" Americans who > are fed up > ready to join us, and who will adhere to the principles of freedom > they > learn about as they read the books we'll refer them to. I'll say > some more > words on this subject, but first, here's the story: > > > > April 6, 2010 8:15 AM PDT > Court: FCC has no power to regulate Net neutrality > > ___________________________ > ____________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 15:05:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:05:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <07B83ABB-D214-4A53-B125-9BDD21FC5060@teleport.com> Well, when the nation was founded, there were certainly plenty of Indians here-- as well as Africans, Germans, Jews, Spaniards and a few other ethnic groups that would deserve a nod in any F.C. (Fundamentally Correct) Biology or Geology text-- IF the only criterion was local religious sensibilities... Or would that better be "Fundamentalistically Correct?" However, Science, like Nature herself, doesn't recognize political or theological borders, and trying to impose those borders on her generally leads to embarrassment. The history of Lamarckism (later Lysenkoism) is instructive. On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well Jeff, not appropriate in all science classes for sure, but > Biology > might be an exception. > > As for listing creationists for all peoples, a thousand page > textbook would > not in all likelyhood do that, but since America was founded by > Christians, > they might get a nod in text books, especially in history. > > A portion of history about our native Indian history might include > brief > text that they came from below the ground, and evolved from animals. > > Otherwise, where does the line get drawn? Search me, but I assure > all I do > not have the answer. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/6/2010 1:52:15 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves > forward . . . . > > >> From: Steve >> >> I'm all for it. You'd see how they interrelate. > > And are inspired by each other. > > And who stole what portion of their idea of "history" from who. > > And the gross inaccuracies each continues to promote. > > And so on. > > At that point, however, we're talking about a world religions or > worldviews > class. > > Disproven religious perspective (like creationism) doesn't belong > in science > classes where scientific fact does a fine job of answering questions > already. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 15:11:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:11:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! In-Reply-To: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> References: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <061BCCA4-0264-4985-8E6C-F5AD0004A85C@teleport.com> Gosh, a civil, open-minded Republican advocating respect for individuals and a wide range of opinions! Is this the first sign of the Apocalypse? Anyone want to take bets on when LimBeck starts jumping all over him? WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > bob "'nuff said" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Coburn critical of Fox, nice to Pelosi > > Jonathan Allen > Tue Apr 6, 1:58 pm ET > > Tom Coburn wants his constituents to get a more fair and balanced > view of politics ? even if that means hating a bit on FOX and > loving a little on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. > ?What we have to have is make sure we have a debate in this country > so that you can see what?s going on and make a determination > yourself,? the Oklahoma senator said in remarks to a home-state > town hall meeting March 31 that were first reported by Capitol News > Connection. ?So don?t catch yourself being biased by FOX News that > somebody is no good. The people in Washington are good. They just > don?t know what they don?t know.? > > In particular, Coburn took FOX to task for perpetuating the notion > that Americans will be imprisoned for failing to purchase health > insurance under the new law. > > Coburn spokesman John Hart said the Oklahoman wants constituents to > gather information from multiple sources rather than relying on > just one news outlet. > > ?He makes those comments privately frequently about media networks. > I think his point was to encourage citizens to be skeptical > consumers. He was not trying to pick on Fox,? Hart said. > > And, noting the widely held perception that FOX leans right, Hart > said ?It?s more credible to critique your own side.? > > Coburn?s defense of Pelosi ? he called her ?a nice lady? ? elicted > a little bit of disapproval from his constituents, according to > Capitol News Connection. > > While the two lawmakers share little ground on policy, Hart says > his boss?s philosophy holds that ?you separate the ideas from the > individuals.? > > But Coburn took exception to Pelosi?s view that Congress shouldn?t > set a precedent by requiring budget offsets to pay for a temporary > extension of unemployment insurance. > > ?I want to set that precedent,? said Coburn, who has been holding > up a bill that would extend jobless benefits. > > FOX News did not reply to a request for comment. > > Michael Calderone contributed to this report. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 6 15:19:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:19:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBAB16.00004C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBAB16.00004C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <66144998-0752-4919-8CA2-CB2B7C08C362@teleport.com> On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:43 PM, donkelly wrote: > > Glen is certainly a thorn in the foot. Or a pain in the old earbones... WW > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/6/2010 2:29:31 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves > forward . . . . > > >> From: donkelly >> >> [...] No Glenn Beck? [...] > > Oh, what a better place the world would be..... > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 16:06:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:06:58 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! References: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> <061BCCA4-0264-4985-8E6C-F5AD0004A85C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BBBBE92.00001D.03736@DON-B2514E06367> Probably yesterday because they would have seen this coming. -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/6/2010 3:12:11 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! Gosh, a civil, open-minded Republican advocating respect for individuals and a wide range of opinions! Is this the first sign of the Apocalypse? Anyone want to take bets on when LimBeck starts jumping all over him? WW On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > bob "'nuff said" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Coburn critical of Fox, nice to Pelosi > > Jonathan Allen > Tue Apr 6, 1:58 pm ET > > Tom Coburn wants his constituents to get a more fair and balanced > view of politics ? even if that means hating a bit on FOX and > loving a little on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. > ?What we have to have is make sure we have a debate in this country > so that you can see what?s going on and make a determination > yourself,? the Oklahoma senator said in remarks to a home-state > town hall meeting March 31 that were first reported by Capitol News > Connection. ?So don?t catch yourself being biased by FOX News that > somebody is no good. The people in Washington are good. They just > don?t know what they don?t know.? > > In particular, Coburn took FOX to task for perpetuating the notion > that Americans will be imprisoned for failing to purchase health > insurance under the new law. > > Coburn spokesman John Hart said the Oklahoman wants constituents to > gather information from multiple sources rather than relying on > just one news outlet. > > ?He makes those comments privately frequently about media networks. > I think his point was to encourage citizens to be skeptical > consumers. He was not trying to pick on Fox,? Hart said. > > And, noting the widely held perception that FOX leans right, Hart > said ?It?s more credible to critique your own side.? > > Coburn?s defense of Pelosi ? he called her ?a nice lady? ? elicted > a little bit of disapproval from his constituents, according to > Capitol News Connection. > > While the two lawmakers share little ground on policy, Hart says > his boss?s philosophy holds that ?you separate the ideas from the > individuals.? > > But Coburn took exception to Pelosi?s view that Congress shouldn?t > set a precedent by requiring budget offsets to pay for a temporary > extension of unemployment insurance. > > ?I want to set that precedent,? said Coburn, who has been holding > up a bill that would extend jobless benefits. > > FOX News did not reply to a request for comment. > > Michael Calderone contributed to this report. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/1bd4a6b7/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 6 16:33:55 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:33:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Time to change the subject ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <71FC7302-57DA-49F2-A014-45D3D873E5B1@teleport.com> References: <4BBB8920.6090902@jurislex.com> <01ca01cad5c1$bb55b080$32011180$@com> <71FC7302-57DA-49F2-A014-45D3D873E5B1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <026301cad5e1$a0292790$e07b76b0$@com> > From: Walt Wentz [mailto:waltw at teleport.com] > > Also in prominent use is the fallacy of attacking the > messenger... The doctrine of papal infallibility is such a > straitjacket on the Pope that he really may have no choice > but to "stand firm..." possibly the worst thing he could do > if he were in ordinary life. I believe (and hope) that even the Pope can't overcome the overwhelming inertia. More red herring http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/catholic-church-accused-o_b_52 5985.html Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 16:42:51 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:42:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> Message-ID: <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> No better or worse than Keith Olbermann......... Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: donkelly >> >> [...] No Glenn Beck? [...] >> > > Oh, what a better place the world would be..... > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From edavie at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 17:17:33 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: yea, that's a shame! Ed From: donkelly Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:58 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 17:22:56 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:22:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BBBAA64.4020808@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> <06DCF708-782D-43A1-B85E-D211768DA69E@verizon.net> <4BBBAA64.4020808@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <6480B8241682415B8297551DBF6932E1@EdDaviePC> We still use Trespassers in the Methodist church. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Browning Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 2:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . Katie - I'm impressed that at least one G'nut knew what I was talking about!!! bob "two Browning-points for you" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/6/2010 2:34 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: I always laugh a little bit to myself when I'm with a group and half of them are 'tresspassers' and half are 'debtors'. Nobody ever knows which one to say... Katie Usually the debtors win but I think it is just because there are fewer syllables. On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Bob Browning wrote: Actually, we started out this way and if we had stayed that way we would still be part of England and our state religion would be Anglican!!! bob "and we would be saying 'trespasses' and not 'debts'" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/6/2010 1:01 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: OK, so we break up one large and powerful nation into 50 feeble but independent nations, so that the predominant religious sect in each sovereign state could impose its history upon everyone in that state? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2794 - Release Date: 04/05/10 23:32:00 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/b8395dcf/attachment.jpe From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 17:30:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:30:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . ... References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <4BBB7B2F.000023.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBBA719.90707@jurislex.com> <06DCF708-782D-43A1-B85E-D211768DA69E@verizon.net> <4BBBAA64.4020808@jurislex.com> <6480B8241682415B8297551DBF6932E1@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4BBBD234.000036.03736@DON-B2514E06367> Is that the same as transgressors in the Baptist church? Or back sliders? Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 4/6/2010 5:23:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . ... We still use Trespassers in the Methodist church. Ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Bob Browning Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 2:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . . . Katie - I'm impressed that at least one G'nut knew what I was talking about!!! bob "two Browning-points for you" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/6/2010 2:34 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: I always laugh a little bit to myself when I'm with a group and half of them are 'tresspassers' and half are 'debtors'. Nobody ever knows which one to say... Katie Usually the debtors win but I think it is just because there are fewer syllables. On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Bob Browning wrote: Actually, we started out this way and if we had stayed that way we would still be part of England and our state religion would be Anglican!!! bob "and we would be saying 'trespasses' and not 'debts'" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/6/2010 1:01 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: OK, so we break up one large and powerful nation into 50 feeble but independent nations, so that the predominant religious sect in each sovereign state could impose its history upon everyone in that state? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2794 - Release Date: 04/05/10 23:32:00 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/472e42dd/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 21:42:36 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:42:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! In-Reply-To: <061BCCA4-0264-4985-8E6C-F5AD0004A85C@teleport.com> References: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> <061BCCA4-0264-4985-8E6C-F5AD0004A85C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4A57D560-846C-4DDF-B680-AEF0CA5D35CE@verizon.net> It is a sign of hope. Like the first flower of spring. Hurray for him. Of course, keeping payments from the unemployed may be a bit of an economic problem. He wants a budget offset to pay for it, right? Maybe we could put pay toilets into the federal minimum security prisons? No, perhaps we could tax companies the same on their profits from off shore facilities as we tax them for their profit on domestic facilities? Wait, that would remove an incentive to move jobs overseas. Which of course has no bearing on American unemployment. Sorry I even brought it up. David On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Gosh, a civil, open-minded Republican advocating respect for individuals and a wide range of opinions! Is this the first sign of the Apocalypse? > Anyone want to take bets on when LimBeck starts jumping all over him? > WW From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 21:46:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:46:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> Don't forget math class. It is appropriate for Math class too. We need to teach that a cylindrical tank with a diameter of 10, has a circumference of 30. Like the Bible says. And you can check it out of your calculator! David On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well Jeff, not appropriate in all science classes for sure, but Biology might be an exception. From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 22:02:53 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:02:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> Message-ID: Yep, that's what my abacus says too. Katie I ran out of fingers and toes and couldn't get to 30... On Apr 6, 2010, at 9:46 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Don't forget math class. It is appropriate for Math class too. We > need to teach that a cylindrical tank with a diameter of 10, has a > circumference of 30. Like the Bible says. And you can check it > out of your calculator! > > David > > On Apr 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well Jeff, not appropriate in all science classes for sure, but >> Biology might be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 22:18:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 22:18:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! References: <4BBBA5BE.3090109@jurislex.com> <061BCCA4-0264-4985-8E6C-F5AD0004A85C@teleport.com> <4A57D560-846C-4DDF-B680-AEF0CA5D35CE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBC15B1.000044.03736@DON-B2514E06367> Well, not so crazy. Consider an item on an IRS list that they hope gets passed into law by congress. Tax on runoff rainwater. I kid you not, that is on the list, and as the list is compiled, that item may not even be the worst.. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/6/2010 9:43:48 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What a traitor ! ! ! It is a sign of hope. Like the first flower of spring. Hurray for him. Of course, keeping payments from the unemployed may be a bit of an economic problem. He wants a budget offset to pay for it, right? Maybe we could put pay toilets into the federal minimum security prisons? No, perhaps we could tax companies the same on their profits from off shore facilities as we tax them for their profit on domestic facilities? Wait, that would remove an incentive to move jobs overseas. Which of course has no bearing on American unemployment. Sorry I even brought it up. David On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Gosh, a civil, open-minded Republican advocating respect for individuals and a wide range of opinions! Is this the first sign of the Apocalypse? > Anyone want to take bets on when LimBeck starts jumping all over him? > WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100406/b5a89e34/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 6 22:49:01 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Funny that your source was taking about censorship. What browser do you use to surf the net? IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Chrome,... If your ISP wants you to use "Bucket of Slop" brand browser, because they get a kick back, they may. What search engine do you use to find information on the net? Google, Yahoo, MSN Search, Cuil,... If your ISP wants to restrict access to search engines, they may. Does your web site pay a fee to be "found" by search engines? If "Slight of Hand" search engine chooses to require "pay for play" before displaying websites, they may. If your ISP requires you to use "Bucket of Slop", and it only uses "Slight of Hand", then you may miss out on "Principled Patriots" web site if they didn't pay their monthly contribution. That is the nature of the free market, you pay because nothing in the market is free. The FCC wanted to require free access, and the court said "No, the FCC is not empowered to make rules for broadband." To most people, requiring that you HAVE access is the opposite of censorship. David On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:58 PM, donkelly wrote: > Good news. The president's attempt to nationalize communications has failed, but we need to stay alert because he will try to control communications through this vital industry again. > > So we won't be another China tomorrow, but keep your eyes open for further attempts. > > Don > > ========================== > > WONDERFUL NEWS, PRINCIPLED PATRIOTS! > ... So-called "Net Neutrality" would have given the White House the power to censor us that only China has exercised on such a scale before now. Just imagine having no ability to network with fellow patriots online? No "unapproved" news? No Glenn Beck? No way to get the information we all need to make informed decisions? From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 7 00:18:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 00:18:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Rasmussen Poll Tea Party 48% Obama 44% In-Reply-To: <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBA5C81.5080908@gmail.com> <4BBA612E.5090206@jurislex.com> <4BBA6590.1040505@gmail.com> <4BBA9A3B.000018.00452@DON-B2514E06367> <9E357DE0-3A06-4F22-AE28-D29ED320F3FF@verizon.net> <4BBB3743.2030105@gmail.com> <2CB909B179184429B9B50BCF391BB70C@JeffVAIO> <4BBB655F.00001D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1F9FB9F3-1F9D-499C-8963-BA9244C75808@verizon.net> The NEC is prepared by a private agency, and they update on a three year basis, I believe. Oregon Revised Statues (ORS) authorizes the adoption of codes by the Director of the Department of Consumer and Business Services. The Director makes those decisions in accordance with the Oregon Administrative Rules (OAR). And OAR identifies the NEC as the basis for the Oregon State Electrical Law. So, the NEC isn't a guideline or a suggestion. It is law. Haiti doesn't have a strong building standards program. It keeps the up front price low, but the long term price is pretty heavy. Of course, the free market views those costs as "external" to the original economic action. That is part of the question about government, should it protect us from those who expose us to dangers without our informed consent? And who should pay the cost of policing? Those who are protected, or those whose actions endanger others? Also, this is a question of prior restraint, because for some of the threats, the actors do not have the capacity to "make whole" after the fact. e.g. I certainly do not consider an insurance payment to my surviving spouse an acceptable "make whole" to me if I am killed. If they cannot raise the dead, they have no business risking my life by their actions. David > ... > I suppose that by being declared law, NEC would have a hard time updating the code book to ever evolving new standards. > > Should it be a law anyway? > > Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 12:36:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:36:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to bite them? http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 Don From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 12:53:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:53:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Sounds like Paranoia Central, or Conspiracies R Us... I much prefer CBC, where a bit of distance provides a more clear-eyed appraisal of the USA. http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to > bite them? > > http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 > > Don > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 7 14:15:27 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:15:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Message-ID: Walt I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca and looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 Was it the column on whether a white American guy wanting to blow up cops (and lots of them) with bombs could be called a terrorist when a brown American who wanted to go after the government was similarly called a terrorist or did the white guys self proclaimed Christian religion keep him from ever being called such a thing? Katie On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sounds like Paranoia Central, or Conspiracies R Us... I much prefer > CBC, where a bit of distance provides a more clear-eyed appraisal of > the USA. > > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to >> bite them? >> >> http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 7 14:20:49 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:20:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <037e01cad698$329f1560$97dd4020$@com> Katie, > From: Katie Allnutt > > I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca > and looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa-macdonald.html Or, if that doesn't work: http://tinyurl.com/yz5hjbg Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 7 14:47:09 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:47:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100407/c367f24e/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 15:07:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:07:01 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> http://godcountryusa.ning.com/video/who-are-tea-partiers Government and major media say Tea Party is radical, even racist, but independent poles say the Tea Party walks down the line middle America. What do you all think? Are they radical? Are they un American? Don PS: Below gives a pretty good view posted by Muslims. Dk -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of the Bush Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who gave a talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War against the precepts of Islam? http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic advances of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 Navy and Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the following: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): January 1904 - February 27, 1904 Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, 1925 Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 - March 13, 1924 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - April 30, 1924 China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 China (Canton): December 1927 Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 USS Panay: December 12, 1937 Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to December 15, 2002 * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, the service member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed innumerable countries, not always in line with our best principles, including but not limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, "American" Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with the best of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal which our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less belligerent and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an effort to spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always acting like an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. bob "the peacemaker" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/16fdae5c/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 15:37:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:37:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBD0912.000048.02532@DON-B2514E06367> BAD FOR BOTH PARTIES, BUT GOOD FOR AMERICANS: http://newsmax com/InsideCover/morris-healthcare-obama-book/2010/04/06/id/354947?s=al&promo_ ode=9B7F-1 As for Muslims, I felt it fair to hear their side of issues, from their own news organization. This is a cultural thing I cannot begin to understand. The first thing Muslims did to offend America 150 years ago was to capture American ships, and sell their crews into slavery. So they cannot blame America for starting a war of national defense against them. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of the Bush Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who gave a talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War against the precepts of Islam? http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic advances of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 Navy and Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the following: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): January 1904 - February 27, 1904 Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, 1925 Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 - March 13, 1924 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - April 30, 1924 China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 China (Canton): December 1927 Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 USS Panay: December 12, 1937 Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to December 15, 2002 * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, the service member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed innumerable countries, not always in line with our best principles, including but not limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, "American" Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with the best of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal which our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less belligerent and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an effort to spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always acting like an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. bob "the peacemaker" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/491bf8af/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 7 15:39:02 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:39:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100407/4a57a8fa/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 7 15:42:10 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:42:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6E28C4B4-5040-42C8-AD8D-21BF0DAF2D20@verizon.net> Does it matter what anyone else thinks? All the tea partiers know in their own hearts what they are. Jesus sees into their hearts as well, so if they are peace loving and caring they have nothing to worry about. The song goes '...red and yellow black and white...' The media can only show pictures of what the tea party members present to the camera and record the words that they use to shout their views. What do you think down the line middle of America wants for all the children? Katie On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/video/who-are-tea-partiers > > > > Government and major media say Tea Party is radical, even racist, but > independent poles say the Tea Party walks down the line middle > America. > > > > What do you all think? Are they radical? Are they un American? > > > > Don > > > > PS: Below gives a pretty good view posted by Muslims. > > > > Dk > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Bob Browning > > Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > > > Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of > the Bush > Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who > gave a > talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our > excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War > against the > precepts of Islam? > > > > http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html > > > > Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic > advances > of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 > Navy and > Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the > following: > > > > http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 > > > > Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions > > Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 > > Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 > > Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 > > Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 > > Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 > > Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 > > Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 > > Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 > > Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 > > Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 > > Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 > > Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 > > China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 > > China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 > > Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 > > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 > > Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 > > China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 > > Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 > > Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 > > Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 > > Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 > > Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 > > Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 > > Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, > 1903 > > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 > > Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 > > Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 > > Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 > > Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 > > Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 > > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): > January 1904 > - February 27, 1904 > > Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 > > Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 > > Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 > > Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 > > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 > > China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > > China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > > Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 > > Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 > > Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 > > Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 > > Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 > > Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > > Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > > Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 > > Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 > > Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 > > Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 > > Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, > 1925 > > Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 > > Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 > > Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 > > Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 > > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 > - March > 13, 1924 > > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - > April 30, > 1924 > > China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 > > China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 > > China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 > > Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 > > China (Canton): December 1927 > > Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 > > Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 > > China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 > > USS Panay: December 12, 1937 > > Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 > > Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 > > Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 > > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 > > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 > > Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 > > Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* > > Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 > > Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 > > Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 > > Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 > > USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to > December 15, > 2002 > > * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, > the service > member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps > Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed > Forces > Expeditionary Medal. > > > > In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed > innumerable > countries, not always in line with our best principles, including > but not > limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, > "American" > Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with > the best > of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal > which > our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. > > > > I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less > belligerent > and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an > effort to > spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always > acting like > an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! > > > > Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. > > > > bob "the peacemaker" browning > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 15:54:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:54:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Note the Barbary Pirates (Muslims) of 1850 were left out. But how many on the list were defensive in nature, to trouble started by someone else against our friends, or against our national interests? We could have gone on for centuries on buying pirates off, but eventually a line had to be drawn between what was and what was not acceptable behavior. Comments? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of the Bush Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who gave a talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War against the precepts of Islam? http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic advances of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 Navy and Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the following: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): January 1904 - February 27, 1904 Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, 1925 Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 - March 13, 1924 Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - April 30, 1924 China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 China (Canton): December 1927 Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 USS Panay: December 12, 1937 Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to December 15, 2002 * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, the service member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed innumerable countries, not always in line with our best principles, including but not limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, "American" Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with the best of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal which our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less belligerent and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an effort to spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always acting like an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. bob "the peacemaker" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/f2e89734/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 7 15:59:49 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:59:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> > But how many on the list were defensive in nature, to trouble started > by someone else against our friends, or against our national interests? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. At some point we have to stop "stamp-collecting" prior transgressions in an attempt to use them to legitimize future attacks. Or, we can play the "he said, she said" game ad infinitum. Who'll choose the moral high ground? Who'll decide to continue being the schoolyard bully? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 16:45:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:45:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any denomination planning to kill anyone. I do believe all terrorists are not easy individually to define, yet some are easily defined. Fact is only one religion in the whole world has declared war (jihad) on the rest of the world. Acts of terrorism by them are easily defined. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/7/2010 2:15:50 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Walt I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca and looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 Was it the column on whether a white American guy wanting to blow up cops (and lots of them) with bombs could be called a terrorist when a brown American who wanted to go after the government was similarly called a terrorist or did the white guys self proclaimed Christian religion keep him from ever being called such a thing? Katie On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sounds like Paranoia Central, or Conspiracies R Us... I much prefer > CBC, where a bit of distance provides a more clear-eyed appraisal of > the USA. > > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to >> bite them? >> >> http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/465c0efb/attachment-0001.gif From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 7 16:58:53 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100407/a373482d/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 7 17:08:01 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:08:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3B35EC56-958A-42C9-9BC1-52CB2660D8AD@verizon.net> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any > denomination > planning to kill anyone. > > > Are you unaware of the Hutarees? Katie From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 17:21:33 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:21:33 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com><1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367><89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net><4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367><4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367><939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net><4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367><4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367><411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com><4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1486312303-1270686096-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1340331274-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Read up on the reformation. -----Original Message----- From: "donkelly" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:45:23 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 19:03:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:03:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <50E618C7-22CB-4196-8473-ACC47E2D0BBB@teleport.com> Yep, that's the article. On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Walt > I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca and > looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 > > Was it the column on whether a white American guy wanting to blow up > cops (and lots of them) with bombs could be called a terrorist when a > brown American who wanted to go after the government was similarly > called a terrorist or did the white guys self proclaimed Christian > religion keep him from ever being called such a thing? > > Katie > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Sounds like Paranoia Central, or Conspiracies R Us... I much prefer >> CBC, where a bit of distance provides a more clear-eyed appraisal of >> the USA. >> >> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- >> macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX >> >> On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:36 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to >>> bite them? >>> >>> http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 19:15:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:15:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <25E889D6-C122-4864-8BF5-52ABBEBE6E75@teleport.com> Hooboy! Gen. Boykin sounds as irrational as Patton, but a damnsite more dangerous to our side. On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of > the Bush Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the > General who gave a talk in a church while in full dress uniform and > discussed how our excursions into the Middle East was part of the > Christian War against the precepts of Islam? > > http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html > > Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic > advances of a large segment of American society has led us into > more than 70 Navy and Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in > the following list from the following: > > http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 >> Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions >> Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 >> Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 >> Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 >> Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 >> Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 >> Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 >> Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 >> Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 >> Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 >> Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 >> Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 >> China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 >> China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 >> Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 >> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 >> Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 >> China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 >> Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 >> Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 >> Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 >> Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 >> Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 >> Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, >> 1903 >> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 >> Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 >> Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 >> Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 >> Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 >> Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 >> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): >> January 1904 - February 27, 1904 >> Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 >> Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, >> 1907 >> Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 >> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 >> China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >> China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >> Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 >> Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, >> 1917 >> Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 >> Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 >> Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 >> Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >> Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >> Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 >> Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 >> Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 >> Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 >> Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, >> 1925 >> Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 >> Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 >> Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 >> Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 >> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February >> 28 - March 13, 1924 >> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - >> April 30, 1924 >> China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 >> China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 >> China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 >> China (Canton): December 1927 >> Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 >> Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 >> China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 >> USS Panay: December 12, 1937 >> Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 >> Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 >> Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 >> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 >> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 >> Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 >> Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* >> Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 >> Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 >> Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 >> Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 >> USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to >> December 15, 2002 >> * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, >> the service member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal >> (or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service >> component) or the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. > > In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed > innumerable countries, not always in line with our best principles, > including but not limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua > and Panama, "American" Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin > Islands, and not always with the best of results, unless our goal > was to create hatred for the US, a goal which our governing bodies > seem particularly adept at doing. > > I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less > belligerent and will start using our power (such as it remains) to > make an effort to spread the best of our civilization to others, > instead of always acting like an occupying power, imposing a ruler > with near dictatorial power ! ! > > Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. > > bob "the peacemaker" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- >> macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 19:21:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:21:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: > > Government and major media say Tea Party is radical, even racist, but > independent poles say the Tea Party walks down the line middle > America. These are Poles who claim to be independent of Poland? (sorry, couldn't resist that). > > What do you all think? Are they radical? Are they un American? From my own two contacts with them, I would definitely say that those people definitely violated the American ideals of fair play and free speech. As for racist, judging from the various reports I've read, it certainly sounds as though at least some of them are-- and the rest are apparently in denial about that. > > Don > > PS: Below gives a pretty good view posted by Muslims. > > Dk > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of > the Bush > Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who > gave a > talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our > excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War > against the > precepts of Islam? > > http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html > > Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic > advances > of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 > Navy and > Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the > following: > > http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 > > Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions > Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 > Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 > Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 > Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 > Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 > Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 > Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 > Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 > Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 > Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 > Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 > China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 > China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 > Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 > Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 > China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 > Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 > Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 > Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 > Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 > Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 > Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, > 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 > Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 > Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 > Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): > January 1904 > - February 27, 1904 > Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 > Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 > Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 > China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 > Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 > Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 > Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 > Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 > Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 > Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 > Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, > 1925 > Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 > Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 > Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 > Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 > - March > 13, 1924 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - > April 30, > 1924 > China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 > China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 > China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 > China (Canton): December 1927 > Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 > Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 > China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 > USS Panay: December 12, 1937 > Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 > Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 > Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 > Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 > Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* > Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 > Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 > Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 > Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 > USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to > December 15, > 2002 > * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, > the service > member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps > Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed > Forces > Expeditionary Medal. > > In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed > innumerable > countries, not always in line with our best principles, including > but not > limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, > "American" > Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with > the best > of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal > which > our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. > > I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less > belligerent > and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an > effort to > spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always > acting like > an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! > > Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. > > bob "the peacemaker" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 19:27:08 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:27:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com> I watched Chris Matthews for an hour and forgot that he was an idiot. I listened to Rush Limbaugh for an hour and realized that he is an idiot. These people (I wouldn't call them journalists) are entertainers. Whether they're liberal or conservative or libertarian, they are trying to get ratings and a following. As long as you realize who and what they are, then enjoy. No one is any better than the other. People will watch or listen to those they agree most with. It's a free country and we can still listen to anyone we want to. That is until Czar Sunstein has his way. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Hold on here now!! I really like Keith Olbermann (well, maybe except > for his stupid graphics!!), and I usually find his comments to be much > better researched and vetted than those of Bill O or the Beckman, > among others on Fox. > > bob "hold me up, I'm leaning too far left" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/6/2010 4:42 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> No better or worse than Keith Olbermann......... >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> From: donkelly >>>> >>>> [...] No Glenn Beck? [...] >>>> >>> Oh, what a better place the world would be..... >>> >>> Jeff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 19:38:05 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:38:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> As a political consultant I work with many different groups and people all over the political map. What I've seen from the Tea Party movement are people who were never concerned about politics until recently. Many of them never voted. They might watch the evening news, maybe look at a newspaper every now and again, but were not politically active. Now they feel motivated to speak up because they feel that their voices are not being heard. They are novices when it comes to politics and as such think with their hearts and not with their brains. They are emotionally wrapped up in what is going on, a mistake that many people make when they first get involved in politics. In politics there are no victories or losses, you are either ahead or waiting for the next opportunity to get the lead. Over the next few years many of these people will drift away from politics again and go back to their personal lives. Few will stay involved and will learn how to do politics. In time this will pass. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: >> Government and major media say Tea Party is radical, even racist, but >> independent poles say the Tea Party walks down the line middle >> America. >> > > These are Poles who claim to be independent of Poland? (sorry, > couldn't resist that). > >> What do you all think? Are they radical? Are they un American? >> > > From my own two contacts with them, I would definitely say that > those people definitely violated the American ideals of fair play and > free speech. > As for racist, judging from the various reports I've read, it > certainly sounds as though at least some of them are-- and the rest > are apparently in denial about that. > >> Don >> >> PS: Below gives a pretty good view posted by Muslims. >> >> Dk >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Bob Browning >> Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss >> >> Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of >> the Bush >> Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who >> gave a >> talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our >> excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War >> against the >> precepts of Islam? >> >> http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html >> >> Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic >> advances >> of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 >> Navy and >> Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the >> following: >> >> http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 >> >> Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions >> Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 >> Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 >> Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 >> Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 >> Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 >> Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 >> Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 >> Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 >> Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 >> Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 >> Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 >> China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 >> China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 >> Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 >> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 >> Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 >> China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 >> Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 >> Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 >> Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 >> Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 >> Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 >> Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, >> 1903 >> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 >> Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 >> Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 >> Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 >> Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 >> Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 >> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): >> January 1904 >> - February 27, 1904 >> Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 >> Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 >> Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 >> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 >> China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >> China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >> Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 >> Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 >> Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 >> Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 >> Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 >> Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >> Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >> Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 >> Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 >> Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 >> Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 >> Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, >> 1925 >> Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 >> Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 >> Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 >> Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 >> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 >> - March >> 13, 1924 >> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - >> April 30, >> 1924 >> China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 >> China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 >> China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 >> Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 >> China (Canton): December 1927 >> Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 >> Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 >> China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 >> USS Panay: December 12, 1937 >> Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 >> Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 >> Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 >> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 >> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 >> Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 >> Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* >> Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 >> Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 >> Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 >> Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 >> USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to >> December 15, >> 2002 >> * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, >> the service >> member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps >> Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed >> Forces >> Expeditionary Medal. >> >> In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed >> innumerable >> countries, not always in line with our best principles, including >> but not >> limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, >> "American" >> Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with >> the best >> of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal >> which >> our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. >> >> I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less >> belligerent >> and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an >> effort to >> spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always >> acting like >> an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! >> >> Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. >> >> bob "the peacemaker" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- >> macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> _______________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 19:47:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:47:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD0912.000048.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0912.000048.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Obviously you speak of the Barbary Pirates of North Africa. This was a local culture that had engaged in piracy and slave trading for centuries. The fact that some of their victims were Americans was not intended to "offend" America; they couldn't have cared less who their victims were. They were equal-opportunity offenders. Having had a free hand so long, doubtless they were a bit surprised when the new nation sent a fleet to kick their piratical behinds and free the prisoners. Actually, the Barbary Wars ended in 1815, nearly 200 years ago. And it is significant that in the century before that, American pirates, actually staid New England merchants and fishermen in search of adventure and loot, were capturing Arab vessels on the pilgrimage to Mecca, killing men, stealing treasure and raping women pilgrims. (This is NOT from Islamic sources, incidentally, but from American histories of piracy!). So if we're going to go scraping up ancient history in search of grievances-- and the Islamists are better at that than we are-- then you could say that we "offended" some Muslims even before America became an independent nation. On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > BAD FOR BOTH PARTIES, BUT GOOD FOR AMERICANS: > > http://newsmax > com/InsideCover/morris-healthcare-obama-book/2010/04/06/id/354947? > s=al&promo_ > ode=9B7F-1 > > As for Muslims, I felt it fair to hear their side of issues, from > their own > news organization. > > This is a cultural thing I cannot begin to understand. > > The first thing Muslims did to offend America 150 years ago was to > capture > American ships, and sell their crews into slavery. > > So they cannot blame America for starting a war of national defense > against > them. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of > the Bush > Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who > gave a > talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our > excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War > against the > precepts of Islam? > > http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html > > Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic > advances > of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 > Navy and > Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the > following: > > http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 > > Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions > Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 > Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 > Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 > Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 > Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 > Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 > Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 > Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 > Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 > Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 > Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 > China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 > China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 > Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 > Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 > China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 > Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 > Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 > Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 > Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 > Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 > Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, > 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 > Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 > Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 > Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): > January 1904 > - February 27, 1904 > Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 > Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 > Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 > China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 > Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 > Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 > Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 > Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 > Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 > Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 > Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, > 1925 > Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 > Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 > Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 > Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 > - March > 13, 1924 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - > April 30, > 1924 > China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 > China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 > China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 > China (Canton): December 1927 > Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 > Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 > China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 > USS Panay: December 12, 1937 > Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 > Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 > Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 > Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 > Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* > Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 > Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 > Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 > Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 > USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to > December 15, > 2002 > * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, > the service > member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps > Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed > Forces > Expeditionary Medal. > > In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed > innumerable > countries, not always in line with our best principles, including > but not > limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, > "American" > Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with > the best > of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal > which > our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. > > I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less > belligerent > and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an > effort to > spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always > acting like > an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! > > Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. > > bob "the peacemaker" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 7 20:06:46 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:06:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com> <4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100407/8ee10d0f/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 20:21:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:21:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9B3431E8-688A-4151-A1AE-184A8C890E27@teleport.com> On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:54 PM, donkelly wrote: > Note the Barbary Pirates (Muslims) of 1850 were left out. 1815 was when that war ended. > > But how many on the list were defensive in nature, to trouble > started by > someone else against our friends, or against our national interests? Well, as one example, in 1897 the American sugar plantation owners in the Kingdom of Hawaii declared that our "national interests" were endangered, because Queen Liliuokalani was about to proclaim a new constitution for Hawaii, under which only Hawaiians would be allowed to vote-- what a quaint concept! So we sent in the Marines to depose the royal family and establish a "Provisional Government" run by-- guess who-- the plantation owners. I think it required about 10 Marines to do the job, but I may be misinformed. > We > could have gone on for centuries on buying pirates off, By 1830, the Barbary States had become colonies of France, remaining so for over a century. > but eventually a > line had to be drawn between what was and what was not acceptable > behavior. > > > Comments? > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of > the Bush > Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who > gave a > talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our > excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War > against the > precepts of Islam? > > http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html > > Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic > advances > of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 > Navy and > Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list from the > following: > > http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 > > Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions > Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 > Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 > Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 > Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 > Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 > Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 > Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 > Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 > Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 > Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 > Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 > China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 > China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 > Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 > Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 > China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 > Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 > Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 > Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 > Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 > Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 > Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, > 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 > Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 > Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 > Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 > Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 > Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): > January 1904 > - February 27, 1904 > Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 > Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, 1907 > Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 > Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 > China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 > Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 > Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 > Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 > Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 > Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 > Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 > Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 > Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 > Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 > Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, > 1925 > Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 > Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 > Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 > Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 > - March > 13, 1924 > Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - > April 30, > 1924 > China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 > China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 > China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 > Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 > China (Canton): December 1927 > Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 > Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 > China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 > USS Panay: December 12, 1937 > Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 > Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 > Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 > Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 > Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 > Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* > Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 > Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 > Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 > Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 > USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to > December 15, > 2002 > * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, > the service > member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps > Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed > Forces > Expeditionary Medal. > > In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed > innumerable > countries, not always in line with our best principles, including > but not > limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, > "American" > Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with > the best > of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal > which > our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. > > I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less > belligerent > and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an > effort to > spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always > acting like > an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! > > Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. > > bob "the peacemaker" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- > macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX > > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 20:45:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:45:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: The rationale, of course, is that these fanatics are not "real" Christians, because they planned to kill someone! Yet throughout history, "real" Christians have been enthusiastic killers. Stonewall Jackson, for instance, prayed devoutly before every battle for the strength to kill more Yankees. And he had no Christian regard for his prisoners. Timothy McVeigh and other home- grown terrorists often rationalized their violence in religious terms. During any major war, the church is always in the forefront of the cheering section, breathing fire and slaughter. The Germans, also, went to war under the motto, "Gott mit uns." Granted, there are some Christians who will not kill under any pretense-- mainly Quakers and Unitarians-- but to claim that no members of Christian denominations will kill people is naive at best. One is reminded of the quote, "Perhaps God is silent because he is ashamed of what his supporters say both for and about him." On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any > denomination > planning to kill anyone. > > I do believe all terrorists are not easy individually to define, > yet some > are easily defined. > > Fact is only one religion in the whole world has declared war > (jihad) on the > rest of the world. > > Acts of terrorism by them are easily defined. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 4/7/2010 2:15:50 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Walt > I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca and > looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 > > Was it the column on whether a white American guy wanting to blow up > cops (and lots of them) with bombs could be called a terrorist when a > brown American who wanted to go after the government was similarly > called a terrorist or did the white guys self proclaimed Christian > religion keep him from ever being called such a thing? > > Katie > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Sounds like Paranoia Central, or Conspiracies R Us... I much prefer >> CBC, where a bit of distance provides a more clear-eyed appraisal of >> the USA. >> >> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- >> macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX >> >> On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:36 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Are they kicking a horse to death, or will the horse survive to >>> bite them? >>> >>> http://www.blip.tv/file/3449629 >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 20:57:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:57:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> Message-ID: <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> If I ran for office I would be vetted to see who I was. They would get everything from my birth certificate up to the drivers license I just renewed. I would expect that, especially if I were running for president. So Why should I care? So Why should Obama care? So Why should Obama's lawyer care? So What does the president have to hide? Don Add a Discussion A MUST READ! Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama Birth Certificate Issue: Why?Posted by Selu Gracie Miller on April 7, 2010 at 9:44am in POLITICS & GOVERNMENT Back to POLITICS & GOVERNMENT Discussions Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama Birth Certificate Issue: Why? Source: Family Security Matters http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/ Exclusive: Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama Birth Certificate Issue: Why? http://tinyurl.com/cw5x7l By Margaret Hemenway [Editor?s note: Barack Obama?s lawyer, Robert F. Bauer, is threatening a D.C Attorney with ?sanctions,? because the attorney is simply requesting that Obama show proof of his birth. No legalizing on our part. No exaggeration. No political manipulation. Just the facts in black and white. We have the shocking letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 dated April 3 . The president of the United States Is threatening sanctions ? and the word ?sanctions? is used in the threat -- against attorney John Hemenway. Read on.] After the flippant dismissal by U.S. Circuit Court Judge James Robertson of the lawsuit to attempt to determine whether Barack Obama is constitutionally eligible to serve as President, D.C. Attorney John Hemenway received a letter from a lawyer representing Barack Obama and Joe Biden, his Vice President. (Hemenway had joined the suit launched by Hillary Clinton's ally Philip Berg, the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania and attorney Lawrence Joyce of Arizona, in an attempt to force President Obama to disclose his birth records, currently being protected against public scrutiny by the Obama legal team at a reported cost of as much as one million dollars.) The entire letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 , written by Obama attorney Robert F. Bauer, states the following (and we note that there is no reference in this letter to an existing valid Birth Certificate for Barack Obama, as opposed to a Certificate of Live Birth, and there is no claim that a valid Birth certificate exists which can be shown to the American people, an act that immediately would shut down this query): ?I represent President Barack Obama and Vice President Joseph Biden. I write to request that, in light of the District Court?s March 24, 2009 Rule 11 order in Hollister v. Soetoro, No. 08-2254, you withdraw the appeal filed in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, No. 09-5080. For the reasons stated in Judge Robertson?s order, the suit is frivolous and should not be pursued. Should you decline to withdraw this frivolous appeal, please be informed that we intend to pursue sanctions, including costs, expenses, and attorney?s fees, pursuant to federal Rule Appellate Procedure 38 and D.C. Circuit Rule 38.? Mr. Hemenway's response to the letter was a promise to "write and protest and attack those against the demand that Obama show proof of his birth, and I will continue to do anything I can think of doing that might perhaps deter or injure those who are opposed to ?transparency? and ?openness? and honesty in governmental operations?all those good and vague promises that Obama threw out in speeches read from his teleprompter." Mr. Hemenway added, "The lawyer for Obama, Robert Bauer, has abused his privileges as an attorney, because I can regard his premature (and totally inaccurate) threats to seek some sanction against me as a threat to keep me from performing my duty to my client. It won?t work and he will soon see that it has not worked to intimidate me." In his opinion, "many judges and other officials are simply crassly violating their oaths of office. Since I had been in the Department of State and served in Moscow for two years, I am mindful of an expression used by the Russians: ?Nada dakazat? kulak!? (You must show them your fist!)" Hemenway also pledged: ??to appeal the slap taken at me (the so-called ?reprimand?) by Judge James Robertson who tried unsuccessfully to label our efforts as ?frivolous? but who did not have the guts to sanction me under Rule 11. (This would have given me?and others engaged in this important battle ?standing in the Court of Appeals.) I will do my duty to Colonel Hollister, who technically is a client, even though I never agreed initially to follow the case in the Court of Appeals. The military, as Colonel Hollister's interest demonstrates, is quite concerned with the basic issue of ?legal? and ?illegal? orders originating from a ?legitimate? or ?illegitimate? commander-in-chief. Recall that Judge Robertson never did admit attorneys Berg or Joyce to practice in his court, never had a hearing and never examined evidence because he didn't seek any. The Judge gave the impression that his decision was predicated solely on ?blogging and twittering?.? For the many others who have contacted him and expressed interest in this cause, Hemenway invoked Churchill's admonition: ?If a matter of principle is involved in a course of action, then never give up?never ? never ? never ? The most important part of that quote is the ?matter of principle.? It was not just a display of the stubborn nature of Churchill. Following that advice, we can see that here, we have a grave matter of principle. If Obama can break such a basic, fundamental rule of the Constitution, then what is to keep him from ignoring or suspending other basic rights, such as the Writ of Habeas Corpus? Last, Hemenway points out: ?Mr. Bauer claims his father was an attorney in Vienna who opposed the union with Germany (the so-called ?Anschluss?) and promoted anti-Nazi political movements while he was in Austria. He says his father left Austria in 1940. Very few people left greater Germany after 1939, when the war started. In any event, if Bauer's background includes such a family history of opposition to anti-rule-of-law monsters, how does he explain his support for this Chicago-styled conspiracy to violate a basic requirement of the United States Constitution?? FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Margaret Calhoun Hemenway is a retired federal employee, having served fifteen years in the U.S. Congress and five years as a White House appointee at DoD and NASA. Tags: mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/91988d65/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 21:07:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:07:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBD5666.000079.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Think you are right Adam, BUT people who elect reps on promises to uphold their oath, then ignore the people and do what they want, certainly motivates people to be offended and to speak out. Seems quite normal to me, and I do understand that many view points banded together to generate a big voice. In that respect, not so dumb, and not so amateurish.........and they are effective. The name of the game. Don //www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/bd70c035/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 21:08:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BCD59F9-DF31-4F6B-BF6E-6C64028731E9@teleport.com> > > In politics there are no victories or losses, you are either ahead or > waiting for the next opportunity to get the lead. > > Over the next few years many of these people will drift away from > politics again and go back to their personal lives. Few will stay > involved and will learn how to do politics. In time this will pass. > > Adam True that, Adam. The pendulum swings, fads come and go, some days you're the dog, the next day you're the fireplug. > > Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Government and major media say Tea Party is radical, even racist, >>> but >>> independent poles say the Tea Party walks down the line middle >>> America. >>> >> >> These are Poles who claim to be independent of Poland? (sorry, >> couldn't resist that). >> >>> What do you all think? Are they radical? Are they un American? >>> >> >> From my own two contacts with them, I would definitely say that >> those people definitely violated the American ideals of fair play and >> free speech. >> As for racist, judging from the various reports I've read, it >> certainly sounds as though at least some of them are-- and the rest >> are apparently in denial about that. >> >>> Don >>> >>> PS: Below gives a pretty good view posted by Muslims. >>> >>> Dk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Bob Browning >>> Date: 4/7/2010 2:47:26 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss >>> >>> Excellent reference, Walt, and it clearly shows the animosity of >>> the Bush >>> Administration toward the Muslims. Do you remember the General who >>> gave a >>> talk in a church while in full dress uniform and discussed how our >>> excursions into the Middle East was part of the Christian War >>> against the >>> precepts of Islam? >>> >>> http://irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html >>> >>> Unfortunately, none of this is new. The jingoistic, nationalistic >>> advances >>> of a large segment of American society has led us into more than 70 >>> Navy and >>> Marine Corps "expeditions" as set forth in the following list >>> from the >>> following: >>> >>> http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94451 >>> >>> Qualifying Expeditions:Navy and Marine Corps Expeditions >>> Hawaii (Honolulu): February 12-20, 1874 >>> Egypt (Alexandria): June 10 - August 29, 1882 >>> Colombia (State of Panama): March 31 - May 22, 1885 >>> Korea (Seoul): June 19-30, 1888 >>> Samoa (Apia): November 13, 1888 - March 20, 1889 >>> Hawaii (Honolulu): July 30-31, 1890 >>> Argentina (Buenos Aires): July 30, 1890 >>> Haiti (Naves Island): May 2 - 30 August 30, 1891 >>> Chile (Valparaiso): August 28-30, 1891 >>> Hawaii (Honolulu): January 16 - April 1, 1893 >>> Nicaragua (Bluefields): July 6 - August 6, 1894 >>> Korea (Seoul): July 24, 1894 - April 3, 1896 >>> China (Tientsin): December 4, 1894 - May 16, 1895 >>> China (Chefoo): March 1-18, 1895 >>> Colombia (Boca de Toro): March 8-9, 1895 >>> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 2-4, 1896 >>> Nicaragua (San Juan del Sur): February 7-8, 1898 >>> China (Peking and Tientsin): November 4,1898 - March 13, 1899 >>> Nicaragua (Bluefields): February 24-28, 1899 >>> Samoa (Apia): March 1899 - May 1899 >>> Colombia (State of Panama): November 11 - December 4, 1901 >>> Colombia (Boca del Toro): April 17-19, 1902 >>> Panama (Isthmus of): September 18-22, 1902 >>> Panama (Panama and Colon): September 23 - November 18, 1902 >>> Honduras (Trujillo, La Ceiba, Puerto Cortex): March 21 - April 16, >>> 1903 >>> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City): April 1-19, 1903 >>> Syria (Beirut): September 8-13, 1903 >>> Syria (Beirut): October 10-17, 1903 >>> Republic of Panama: November 4, 1903 - February 26, 1904 >>> Abyssinia: November 21, 1903 - January 18, 1904 >>> Panama (Porto Bello): December 31, 1903 >>> Dominican Republic (Santo Domingo City & San Pedro de Macoris): >>> January 1904 >>> - February 27, 1904 >>> Korea (American Legation Guard): January 5, 1904 - November 11, 1905 >>> Russia (St Petersburg, Embassy Guard): December 1905 - January 1, >>> 1907 >>> Honduras (Laguna and Choloma): April 28, - June 8, 1907 >>> Nicaragua (Bluefields): December 20, 1909 - March 15, 1910 >>> Nicaragua (Corinto): May 30 - September 4, 1910 >>> China (Legation Guard, Peking): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >>> China (Peking and Shanghai): October 10, 1911 - January 19, 1914 >>> Cuba (Guantanamo Bay): May 28 - August 5, 1912 >>> Nicaragua (Managua: Legation Guard): November 15, 1912 - April 5, >>> 1917 >>> Haiti (Port-au-Prince): January 26 - February 10, 1914 >>> Haiti (Gonaives): February 1-3, 1914 >>> Haiti (Cape Haitien): October 18 - November 7, 1914 >>> Dominican Republic: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >>> Haiti: August 15 - December 17, 1914 >>> Haiti: December 7, 1915 - April 5, 1917 >>> Dominican Republic: December 5, 1916 - April 5, 1917 >>> Haiti: November 12, 1918 - March 31, 1919 >>> Dominican Republic: November 12, 1918 - September 1924 >>> Nicaragua (Managua, Legation Guard): November 12, 1918 - August 3, >>> 1925 >>> Russia (Russian Island, Siberia): March 31, 1920 - November 19, 1922 >>> Haiti: June 16, 1920 - November 25, 1924 >>> Turkey (Ismir): June 28 - July 3, 1921 >>> Turkey (Smyrna): September 7 - October 18, 1922 >>> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): February 28 >>> - March >>> 13, 1924 >>> Honduras (La Ceiva, Puerto Cortez, Tela & Tegucigalpa): March 18 - >>> April 30, >>> 1924 >>> China (Peking, Legation Guard): September 9, 1924 - March 1, 1925 >>> China (Shanghai): January 15, 1925 - August 31, 1925 >>> China (Wuchow): April 3, 1926 >>> Nicaragua (Bluefields): May 7 - June 4, 1926 >>> China (Canton): December 1927 >>> Armed Guards SS Mei Lu and SS I'Ping: April 22 - May 15, 1928 >>> Haiti: December 4, 1929 - August 5, 1931 >>> China (Shanghai): September 9-24, 1934 >>> USS Panay: December 12, 1937 >>> Wake Island: December 7-22, 1941 >>> Thailand: May 16 - August 10, 1962 >>> Cuba: January 3, 1961 - October 23, 1962 >>> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: December 8, 1978 - June 6, 1979 >>> Iran, Yemen, & Indian Ocean: November 21, 1979 - October 1, 1981 >>> Lebanon: August 20, 1982 - May 31, 1983 >>> Lebanon: June 1, 1983 to March 4, 1984* >>> Libya: January 20 - June 27, 1986 >>> Persian Gulf: February 1 - July 23, 1987 >>> Monrovia, Liberia (Sharp Edge): August 5, 1990 - February 21, 1991 >>> Rwanda (Distant Runner): April 7-18, 1994 >>> USS Cole Operations (Determined Response): October 12 2000 to >>> December 15, >>> 2002 >>> * For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, >>> the service >>> member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine >>> Corps >>> Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed >>> Forces >>> Expeditionary Medal. >>> >>> In addition, also using the Army, we have occupied and governed >>> innumerable >>> countries, not always in line with our best principles, including >>> but not >>> limited to Cuba, the Philippines, and Nicaragua and Panama, >>> "American" >>> Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands, and not always with >>> the best >>> of results, unless our goal was to create hatred for the US, a goal >>> which >>> our governing bodies seem particularly adept at doing. >>> >>> I can only wonder when we as a culture will become a tad less >>> belligerent >>> and will start using our power (such as it remains) to make an >>> effort to >>> spread the best of our civilization to others, instead of always >>> acting like >>> an occupying power, imposing a ruler with near dictatorial power ! ! >>> >>> Just my $0.02 worth. Take care all. >>> >>> bob "the peacemaker" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> On 4/7/2010 12:53 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa- >>> macdonald.html#ixzz0kQBfvgnX >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ >>> __ >>> _______________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 21:13:16 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:13:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com> <4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com> <4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <9D215254-C155-49EF-9E8F-E1C3C1F75B25@teleport.com> Sounds entirely practical and pragmatic, Bob! The government and the courts should get entirely out of the religion business. If some people want to call a church ceremony a marriage, that's their business. But their business only. They can't be able to dictate what other people call their own ceremonies. On Apr 7, 2010, at 8:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Thank you for calling Cass Sunstein to my attention: http:// > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein. I especially like his ideas > on marriage - > > "Marriage > "In a recent book, Sunstein proposes that government recognition of > marriage be discontinued. 'Under our proposal, the word marriage > would no longer appear in any laws, and marriage licenses would no > longer be offered or recognized by any level of government,' argues > Sunstein. He continues, 'the only legal status states would confer > on couples would be a civil union, which would be a domestic > partnership agreement between any two people.' He goes on further, > 'Governments would not be asked to endorse any particular > relationships by conferring on them the term marriage,' and refers > to state-recognized marriage as an 'official license scheme.'" > > He is clearly the type of person who should be the next appointee > to the Supreme Court (though I favor a black women in the mold of > Michelle O if one is available for appointment!!). > > bob "rocking the boat" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 7:27 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> I watched Chris Matthews for an hour and forgot that he was an idiot. >> >> I listened to Rush Limbaugh for an hour and realized that he is an >> idiot. >> >> These people (I wouldn't call them journalists) are entertainers. >> Whether they're liberal or conservative or libertarian, they are >> trying >> to get ratings and a following. As long as you realize who and what >> they are, then enjoy. No one is any better than the other. >> People will >> watch or listen to those they agree most with. It's a free >> country and >> we can still listen to anyone we want to. That is until Czar >> Sunstein >> has his way. >> >> Adam >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 7 21:35:23 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:35:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> On Apr 7, 2010, at 8:57 PM, donkelly wrote: > If I ran for office I would be vetted to see who I was. > > They would get everything from my birth certificate up to the drivers > license I just renewed. > > I would expect that, especially if I were running for president. > > So Why should I care? > > So Why should Obama care? > > So Why should Obama's lawyer care? > > So What does the president have to hide? > > Don > > > Add a Discussion A MUST READ! Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished > Veteran on Obama Birth Certificate Issue: Why?Posted by Selu Gracie > Miller > on April 7, 2010 at 9:44am in POLITICS & GOVERNMENT > Back to POLITICS & GOVERNMENT Discussions > Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama Birth > Certificate > Issue: Why? > > Source: > Family Security Matters > http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/ > > Exclusive: Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama > Birth > Certificate Issue: Why? > http://tinyurl.com/cw5x7l > > By Margaret Hemenway > > [Editor?s note: Barack Obama?s lawyer, Robert F. Bauer, is > threatening a D.C > Attorney with ?sanctions,? because the attorney is simply > requesting that > Obama show proof of his birth. No legalizing on our part. No > exaggeration. > No political manipulation. Just the facts in black and white. We > have the > shocking letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 dated April 3 . The > president of > the United States > Is threatening sanctions ? and the word ?sanctions? is used in the > threat -- > against attorney John Hemenway. Read on.] > > After the flippant dismissal by U.S. Circuit Court Judge James > Robertson of > the lawsuit to attempt to determine whether Barack Obama is > constitutionally > eligible to serve as President, D.C. Attorney John Hemenway received a > letter from a lawyer representing Barack Obama and Joe Biden, his Vice > President. (Hemenway had joined the suit launched by Hillary > Clinton's ally > Philip Berg, the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania and > attorney Lawrence Joyce of Arizona, in an attempt to force > President Obama > to disclose his birth records, currently being protected against > public > scrutiny by the Obama legal team at a reported cost of as much as one > million dollars.) The entire letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 , > written by > Obama attorney Robert F. Bauer, states the following (and we note > that there > is no reference in this letter to an existing valid Birth > Certificate for > Barack Obama, as opposed to a Certificate of Live Birth, and there > is no > claim that a valid Birth certificate exists which can be shown to the > American people, an act that immediately would shut down this query): > > ?I represent President Barack Obama and Vice President Joseph > Biden. I write > to request that, in light of the District Court?s March 24, 2009 > Rule 11 > order in Hollister v. Soetoro, No. 08-2254, you withdraw the appeal > filed in > the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, No. > 09-5080. For the > reasons stated in Judge Robertson?s order, the suit is frivolous > and should > not be pursued. > > Should you decline to withdraw this frivolous appeal, please be > informed > that we intend to pursue sanctions, including costs, expenses, and > attorney?s fees, pursuant to federal Rule Appellate Procedure 38 > and D.C. > Circuit Rule 38.? > > Mr. Hemenway's response to the letter was a promise to "write and > protest > and attack those against the demand that Obama show proof of his > birth, and > I will continue to do anything I can think of doing that might > perhaps deter > or injure those who are opposed to ?transparency? and ?openness? > and honesty > in governmental operations?all those good and vague promises that > Obama > threw out in speeches read from his teleprompter." > > Mr. Hemenway added, "The lawyer for Obama, Robert Bauer, has abused > his > privileges as an attorney, because I can regard his premature (and > totally > inaccurate) threats to seek some sanction against me as a threat to > keep me > from performing my duty to my client. It won?t work and he will > soon see > that it has not worked to intimidate me." In his opinion, "many > judges and > other officials are simply crassly violating their oaths of > office. Since I > had been in the Department of State and served in Moscow for two > years, I am > mindful of an expression used by the Russians: ?Nada dakazat? > kulak!? (You > must show them your fist!)" > > Hemenway also pledged: > > ??to appeal the slap taken at me (the so-called ?reprimand?) by > Judge James > Robertson who tried unsuccessfully to label our efforts as > ?frivolous? but > who did not have the guts to sanction me under Rule 11. (This > would have > given me?and others engaged in this important battle ?standing in > the Court > of Appeals.) I will do my duty to Colonel Hollister, who > technically is a > client, even though I never agreed initially to follow the case in > the Court > of Appeals. The military, as Colonel Hollister's interest > demonstrates, is > quite concerned with the basic issue of ?legal? and ?illegal? orders > originating from a ?legitimate? or ?illegitimate? commander-in-chief. > Recall that Judge Robertson never did admit attorneys Berg or Joyce to > practice in his court, never had a hearing and never examined evidence > because he didn't seek any. The Judge gave the impression that his > decision > was predicated solely on ?blogging and twittering?.? > > For the many others who have contacted him and expressed interest > in this > cause, Hemenway invoked Churchill's admonition: ?If a matter of > principle > is involved in a course of action, then never give up?never ? never > ? never > ? The most important part of that quote is the ?matter of > principle.? It > was not just a display of the stubborn nature of Churchill. > Following that > advice, we can see that here, we have a grave matter of principle. > > If Obama can break such a basic, fundamental rule of the > Constitution, then > what is to keep him from ignoring or suspending other basic rights, > such as > the Writ of Habeas Corpus? > > Last, Hemenway points out: ?Mr. Bauer claims his father was an > attorney in > Vienna who opposed the union with Germany (the so-called > ?Anschluss?) and > promoted anti-Nazi political movements while he was in Austria. > He says > his father left Austria in 1940. Very few people left greater > Germany after > 1939, when the war started. In any event, if Bauer's background > includes > such a family history of opposition to anti-rule-of-law monsters, > how does > he explain his support for this Chicago-styled conspiracy to > violate a basic > requirement of the United States Constitution?? > > FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Margaret Calhoun > Hemenway is a > retired federal employee, having served fifteen years in the U.S. > Congress > and five years as a White House appointee at DoD and NASA. > Tags: > > > mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 21:36:33 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 04:36:33 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com><4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com><4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <414955805-1270701396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2133501316-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Wow. I have been in agreement with sustein? Why does the sin color or sex of the next justice matter? Forget the blindfold? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:06:46 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 21:37:37 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:37:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Has anyone ever proven that Obama was NOT born to his American mother? If they haven't, case closed. He's an American, by American law-- even if he were born in Africa, or Indonesia, or East Rattbaggistan. Everything else is just noise and wishful thinking. WW On Apr 7, 2010, at 8:57 PM, donkelly wrote: > If I ran for office I would be vetted to see who I was. > > They would get everything from my birth certificate up to the drivers > license I just renewed. > > I would expect that, especially if I were running for president. > > So Why should I care? > > So Why should Obama care? > > So Why should Obama's lawyer care? > > So What does the president have to hide? > > Don > > > Add a Discussion A MUST READ! Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished > Veteran on Obama Birth Certificate Issue: Why?Posted by Selu Gracie > Miller > on April 7, 2010 at 9:44am in POLITICS & GOVERNMENT > Back to POLITICS & GOVERNMENT Discussions > Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama Birth > Certificate > Issue: Why? > > Source: > Family Security Matters > http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/ > > Exclusive: Obama Attorney Threatens Distinguished Veteran on Obama > Birth > Certificate Issue: Why? > http://tinyurl.com/cw5x7l > > By Margaret Hemenway > > [Editor?s note: Barack Obama?s lawyer, Robert F. Bauer, is > threatening a D.C > Attorney with ?sanctions,? because the attorney is simply > requesting that > Obama show proof of his birth. No legalizing on our part. No > exaggeration. > No political manipulation. Just the facts in black and white. We > have the > shocking letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 dated April 3 . The > president of > the United States > Is threatening sanctions ? and the word ?sanctions? is used in the > threat -- > against attorney John Hemenway. Read on.] > > After the flippant dismissal by U.S. Circuit Court Judge James > Robertson of > the lawsuit to attempt to determine whether Barack Obama is > constitutionally > eligible to serve as President, D.C. Attorney John Hemenway received a > letter from a lawyer representing Barack Obama and Joe Biden, his Vice > President. (Hemenway had joined the suit launched by Hillary > Clinton's ally > Philip Berg, the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania and > attorney Lawrence Joyce of Arizona, in an attempt to force > President Obama > to disclose his birth records, currently being protected against > public > scrutiny by the Obama legal team at a reported cost of as much as one > million dollars.) The entire letter http://tinyurl.com/cazm54 , > written by > Obama attorney Robert F. Bauer, states the following (and we note > that there > is no reference in this letter to an existing valid Birth > Certificate for > Barack Obama, as opposed to a Certificate of Live Birth, and there > is no > claim that a valid Birth certificate exists which can be shown to the > American people, an act that immediately would shut down this query): > > ?I represent President Barack Obama and Vice President Joseph > Biden. I write > to request that, in light of the District Court?s March 24, 2009 > Rule 11 > order in Hollister v. Soetoro, No. 08-2254, you withdraw the appeal > filed in > the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, No. > 09-5080. For the > reasons stated in Judge Robertson?s order, the suit is frivolous > and should > not be pursued. > > Should you decline to withdraw this frivolous appeal, please be > informed > that we intend to pursue sanctions, including costs, expenses, and > attorney?s fees, pursuant to federal Rule Appellate Procedure 38 > and D.C. > Circuit Rule 38.? > > Mr. Hemenway's response to the letter was a promise to "write and > protest > and attack those against the demand that Obama show proof of his > birth, and > I will continue to do anything I can think of doing that might > perhaps deter > or injure those who are opposed to ?transparency? and ?openness? > and honesty > in governmental operations?all those good and vague promises that > Obama > threw out in speeches read from his teleprompter." > > Mr. Hemenway added, "The lawyer for Obama, Robert Bauer, has abused > his > privileges as an attorney, because I can regard his premature (and > totally > inaccurate) threats to seek some sanction against me as a threat to > keep me > from performing my duty to my client. It won?t work and he will > soon see > that it has not worked to intimidate me." In his opinion, "many > judges and > other officials are simply crassly violating their oaths of > office. Since I > had been in the Department of State and served in Moscow for two > years, I am > mindful of an expression used by the Russians: ?Nada dakazat? > kulak!? (You > must show them your fist!)" > > Hemenway also pledged: > > ??to appeal the slap taken at me (the so-called ?reprimand?) by > Judge James > Robertson who tried unsuccessfully to label our efforts as > ?frivolous? but > who did not have the guts to sanction me under Rule 11. (This > would have > given me?and others engaged in this important battle ?standing in > the Court > of Appeals.) I will do my duty to Colonel Hollister, who > technically is a > client, even though I never agreed initially to follow the case in > the Court > of Appeals. The military, as Colonel Hollister's interest > demonstrates, is > quite concerned with the basic issue of ?legal? and ?illegal? orders > originating from a ?legitimate? or ?illegitimate? commander-in-chief. > Recall that Judge Robertson never did admit attorneys Berg or Joyce to > practice in his court, never had a hearing and never examined evidence > because he didn't seek any. The Judge gave the impression that his > decision > was predicated solely on ?blogging and twittering?.? > > For the many others who have contacted him and expressed interest > in this > cause, Hemenway invoked Churchill's admonition: ?If a matter of > principle > is involved in a course of action, then never give up?never ? never > ? never > ? The most important part of that quote is the ?matter of > principle.? It > was not just a display of the stubborn nature of Churchill. > Following that > advice, we can see that here, we have a grave matter of principle. > > If Obama can break such a basic, fundamental rule of the > Constitution, then > what is to keep him from ignoring or suspending other basic rights, > such as > the Writ of Habeas Corpus? > > Last, Hemenway points out: ?Mr. Bauer claims his father was an > attorney in > Vienna who opposed the union with Germany (the so-called > ?Anschluss?) and > promoted anti-Nazi political movements while he was in Austria. > He says > his father left Austria in 1940. Very few people left greater > Germany after > 1939, when the war started. In any event, if Bauer's background > includes > such a family history of opposition to anti-rule-of-law monsters, > how does > he explain his support for this Chicago-styled conspiracy to > violate a basic > requirement of the United States Constitution?? > > FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Margaret Calhoun > Hemenway is a > retired federal employee, having served fifteen years in the U.S. > Congress > and five years as a White House appointee at DoD and NASA. > Tags: > > > mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 21:39:19 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 04:39:19 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened byObama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367><411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com><4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com><4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367><03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com><4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2011479225-1270701563-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-502616136-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> And why did it matter what side of a stream someone lived on? -----Original Message----- From: "donkelly" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:57:54 To: ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 7 21:53:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:53:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney In-Reply-To: <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:35 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 8:57 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> If I ran for office I would be vetted to see who I was. Obama was. >> >> They would get everything from my birth certificate up to the drivers >> license I just renewed. They did.. >> >> I would expect that, especially if I were running for president. Obama did. >> >> So Why should I care? Indeed, why? >> >> So Why should Obama care? He didn't, obviously. A lot of monomaniacs and hysterics obviously DID, and still do, and would continue to do so if George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and even Ronnie Reason came back from the dead to affirm that Obama is, indeed, an American citizen. Let's face it, we are NOT dealing with rational people here, and they are using up legal resources that might best be used on matters of genuine importance. Such people will attempt to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp dishrag. >> >> So Why should Obama's lawyer care? He's a lawyer. Lawyers don't care. >> >> So What does the president have to hide? If he had anything to hide, the RNC's legions of hired snoops and think-tanks would have found it before the election. The fact that they did NOT is testimony enough for me that if Obama is hiding anything, it is probably the equivalent of an overdue library book. And you can bet the Repubs would have played even that into the ground. >> >> WW From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 21:49:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:49:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Of course I am aware that Christians of the past wielded swords to protect their faith. Catholics also did atrocities in the past for which they now openly regret. Hebrews of the bible were warriors of their faith. The Crusaders were warriors of their faith. It doesn't mean they always did right in conducting wars, but if their lives and faiths were on the line, as in fighting Muslims, I cannot fault them in defending themselves and their faiths. Yet in the modern day and age, is it yet necessary to defend the faith with the sword? And if it ever does become necessary, would you turn the other cheek, or as an alternative, die like a sheep? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/7/2010 4:59:11 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Oh, my, Don, I thought you had a better grasp of history!! Please see the following (not necessarily the best site, but the first I found by putting Christian atrocities" into Google) - http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html However, you might argue that not one of these were true Christians, and I would tend to agree with you given my understanding of the teachings of Christ, but these atrocities were all done in the name of Christ. And many of them were done against the Muslims (or Musslemen, as they were often called in times past) for the sole purpose of driving them out of the Christian" territories of what is now called the Middle East. The long, long history of the animosity of the Middle East against the Western Civilizations makes the much more recent animosity of the US South against the North pale in comparison. But, both indicate how long a people can hold a grudge for the death of their family members. I am willing to bet that the Bush Wars of the 21st Century will be remembered in the Middle East and in Afghanistan clear into the next millennium, if not longer!! bob "my long memory growing shorter" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/7/2010 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any denomination planning to kill anyone. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/0057c716/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 7 23:12:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:12:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatenedbyObama Attorney References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBD73DD.0000A6.02532@DON-B2514E06367> I suspect he has no birth certificate to show. If he did, he would have shown it instead of that green COLB which proves nothing at all about where he was born. I born in Arkansas could go to Hawaii, pay the fee, identify myself, show I am alive, and get a COLB. You could also. So could anyone. So did Obama. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/7/2010 9:53:54 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatenedbyObama Attorney On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:35 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 8:57 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> If I ran for office I would be vetted to see who I was. Obama was. >> >> They would get everything from my birth certificate up to the drivers >> license I just renewed. They did.. >> >> I would expect that, especially if I were running for president. Obama did. >> >> So Why should I care? Indeed, why? >> >> So Why should Obama care? He didn't, obviously. A lot of monomaniacs and hysterics obviously DID, and still do, and would continue to do so if George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and even Ronnie Reason came back from the dead to affirm that Obama is, indeed, an American citizen. Let's face it, we are NOT dealing with rational people here, and they are using up legal resources that might best be used on matters of genuine importance. Such people will attempt to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp dishrag. >> >> So Why should Obama's lawyer care? He's a lawyer. Lawyers don't care. >> >> So What does the president have to hide? If he had anything to hide, the RNC's legions of hired snoops and think-tanks would have found it before the election. The fact that they did NOT is testimony enough for me that if Obama is hiding anything, it is probably the equivalent of an overdue library book. And you can bet the Repubs would have played even that into the ground. >> >> WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100407/b6bc8a56/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 8 00:02:51 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:02:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatenedbyObama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD73DD.0000A6.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> <4BBD73DD.0000A6.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <045f01cad6e9$81943be0$84bcb3a0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I suspect he has no birth certificate to show. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Whether or not he has one to show is absolutely irrelevant. He was born to a US citizen so therefore he is a US citizen. You're starting to sound completely delusional. Get over it man. Move on! Individuals far more credible than yourself have put this issue to rest. The only ones still pursuing it are in need of psychiatric help, medication, or both. Do you need psychiatric help, medication, or both? http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 00:32:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:32:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatenedbyObama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD73DD.0000A6.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <17CC5CF2-B10C-4F9C-8613-D5C9BB9E73F6@verizon.net> <4BBD73DD.0000A6.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <825B68A9-FD16-4A0E-A508-7A8BE970F120@verizon.net> Don, I believe we already covered this. Obama's campaign organization posted a Certificate of Live Birth to demonstrate where and when and to whom Obama was born. The state of Hawaii uses that exact document to determine who is a Hawaiian for purposes of their laws that determine Native Hawaiians. Not just Hawaiian citizens, they use it for determining native people. Because it is used for special treatments, it doesn't get any stricter than that. As far as going to Hawaii and paying a fee to get a Hawaiian COLB, please, buy the ticket, enjoy the vacation and come home after you try. David On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > I suspect he has no birth certificate to show. If he did, he would have > shown it instead of that green COLB which proves nothing at all about where > he was born. > > > > I born in Arkansas could go to Hawaii, pay the fee, identify myself, show I > am alive, and get a COLB. > > > > You could also. So could anyone. So did Obama. > > > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 00:41:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:41:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <037e01cad698$329f1560$97dd4020$@com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <037e01cad698$329f1560$97dd4020$@com> Message-ID: <9CCA5C0A-A862-473B-8DDD-18FDAEFE17CD@verizon.net> The author makes a valid point. Fundamental religious extremists who plan and carry out plans to kill innocent people should all be labeled in accord with what they DO, not labeled in accord with the name of the god they follow. David On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Katie, > >> From: Katie Allnutt >> >> I couldn't get the link to work but I did go to www.cbc.ca >> and looked for MacDonald and the date 2010/04/06 > > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/06/f-rfa-macdonald.html > > Or, if that doesn't work: > > http://tinyurl.com/yz5hjbg > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 00:45:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:45:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: New Mexico Chili Cookoff--- References: Message-ID: <4DC426EE-D7D2-42E7-BFB5-8438040CEADA@verizon.net> >From a friend in New Mexico. New Mexico Chili Cookoff If you can read this whole story without laughing, then there's no hope for you. I was crying by the end. This is an actual account as relayed to paramedics at a chili cook-off in New Mexico . Note: Please take time to read this slowly. If you pay attention to the first two judges, The reaction of the third judge is even better. For those of you who have lived in New Mexico , you know how true this is. They actually have a Chili Cook-off about the time Halloween comes around. It takes up a major portion of a parking lot at the Santa Fe Plaza . Judge #3 was an inexperienced Chile taster named Frank, who was visiting from Springfield , IL . Frank: 'Recently, I was honored to be selected as a judge at a chili cook-off. The original person called in sick at the last moment and I happened to be standing there at the judge's table, asking for directions to the Coors Light truck, when the call came in. I was assured by the other two judges (Native New Mexicans) that the chili wouldn't be all that spicy; and, besides, they told me I could have free beer during the tasting, so I accepted and became Judge #3.' Here are the scorecard notes from the event: CHILI # 1 - MIKE'S MANIAC MONSTER CHILI Judge # 1 -- A little too heavy on the tomato. Amusing kick. Judge # 2 -- Nice, smooth tomato flavor. Very mild. Judge # 3 (Frank) -- Holy crap, what the hell is this stuff? You could remove dried paint from your driveway. Took me two beers to put the flames out. I hope that's the worst one. These New Mexicans are crazy. CHILI # 2 - EL RANCHO'S AFTERBURNER CHILI Judge # 1 -- Smoky, with a hint of pork.. Slight jalapeno tang. Judge # 2 -- Exciting BBQ flavor, needs more peppers to be taken seriously. Judge # 3 -- Keep this out of the reach of children. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to taste besides pain. I had to wave off two people who wanted to give me the Heimlich maneuver. They had to rush in more beer when they saw the look on my face. CHILI # 3 - ALFREDO'S FAMOUS BURN DOWN THE BARN CHILI Judge # 1 -- Excellent firehouse chili. Great kick. Judge # 2 -- A bit salty, good use of peppers. Judge # 3 -- Call the EPA. I've located a uranium spill. My nose feels like I have been snorting Drano. Everyone knows the routine by now. Get me more beer before I ignite. Barmaid pounded me on the back, now my backbone is in the front part of my chest. I'm getting sh*t-faced from all of the beer. CHILI # 4=2 0- BUBBA'S BLACK MAGIC Judge # 1 -- Black bean chili with almost no spice. Disappointing. Judge # 2 -- Hint of lime in the black beans. Good side dish for fish or other mild foods, not much of a chili. Judge # 3 -- I felt something scraping across my tongue, but was unable to taste it. Is it possible to burn out taste buds? Sally, the beer maid, was standing behind me with fresh refills. This 300 lb. Woman is starting to look HOT ... Just like this nuclear waste I'm eating! Is chili an aphrodisiac? CHILI # 5 - LISA'S LEGAL LIP REMOVER Judge # 1 -- Meaty, strong chili. Jalapeno peppers freshly ground, adding considerable kick. Very impressive. Judge # 2 -- Chili using shredded beef, could use more tomato. Must admit the jalapeno peppers make a strong statement. Judge # 3 -- My ears are ringing, sweat is pouring off my forehead and I can no longer focus my eyes. I farted, and four people behind me needed paramedics. The contestant seemed offended when I told her that her chili had given me brain damage. Sally saved my tongue from bleeding by pouring beer directly on it from the pitcher. I wonder if I'm burning my lips off. It really ticks me off that the other judges asked me to stop screaming. Screw them. CHILI # 6 - VARGA'S VERY VEGETARIAN VARIETY Judge # 1 -- Thin yet bold vegetarian variety chili. Good balance of spices and peppers. Judge # 2 -- The best yet. Aggressive use of peppers, onions, garlic. Superb. Judge # 3 -- My intestines are now a straight pipe filled with gaseous, sulfuric flames. I crapped on myself when I farted, and I'm worried it will eat through the chair. No one seems inclined to stand behind me except that Sally. Can't feel my lips anymore. I need to wipe my butt with a snow cone. CHILI # 7 - SUSAN'S SCREAMING SENSATION CHILI Judge # 1 -- A mediocre chili with too much reliance on canned peppers. Judge # 2 -- Ho hum, tastes as if the chef literally threw in a can of chili peppers at the last moment. **I should take note that I am worried about Judge #3. He appears to be in a bit of distress as he is cursing uncontrollably. Judge # 3 -- You could put a grenade in my mouth, pull the pin, and I wouldn't feel a thing. I've lost sight in one eye, and the world sounds like it is made of rushing water. My shirt is covered with chili, which slid unnoticed out of my mouth. My pants are full of lava to match my shirt. At least during the autopsy, they'll know what killed me. I've decided to stop breathing. It's too painful. Screw it; I'm not getting any oxygen anyway. If I need air, I'll just suck it in through the 4-inch hole in my stomach. CHILI # 8 - BIG TOM'S TOENAIL CURLING CHILI Judge # 1 -- The perfect ending, this is a nice blend chili. Not too bold but spicy enough to declare its existence. Judge # 2 -- This final entry is a good, balanced chili.. Neither mild nor hot. Sorry to see that most of it was lost when Judge #3 farted, passed out, fell over and pulled the chili pot down on top of himself. Not sure if he's going to make it. Poor fella, wonder how he'd have reacted to really hot chili? Judge # 3 -- No report. < no, it isn't really a true story. Just humor > From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 00:56:04 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:56:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any denomination planning to kill anyone. By that standard there are very few Christians in the world. Here is a hint, delivering a bomb into an occupied city and detonating it is by its very nature "planning to kill someone". And that is true if the delivery vehicle is a van or an F-16. > ... > Fact is only one religion in the whole world has declared war (jihad) on the rest of the world. Not so, Capitalism and Communism have both declared their intention to dominate the world. And please don't tell me that unquestioned faith in the profit motive isn't religion. Or that unquestioned faith in the inevitable triumph of communism isn't religion. > ... > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 01:17:33 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> Adam, I expect that you have better contact with the people you describe than I, because of your work. And I can see human nature written large in your description. Especially the parts about "never concerned about politics until recently", "many never voted" and "not politically active". And how "they feel that their voices are not being heard". Funny thing. If someone never talks, their voice has said nothing, so there is nothing to be heard. Politicians are not psychics, no one knows what they think until they express it. If they have never voted, of course they are not well represented. The candidates, who would have represented them, didn't get enough votes to win. It is not sufficient to expect that the people who are elected will "do the right thing". There is no consensus on what constitutes "the right thing". This forum is a great example of that situation. We don't agree on the right thing, and there is only a dozen or so people in this discussion. When someone goes into government service they can choose some combination of "following the winds of public opinion" and "following their core beliefs". Or they may follow the powerful, or the money. Our legislators do have some sensitivity to the reality of the election process. So they listen to the voiced opinions of individual voters, the opinions of campaign contributors, and their personal conscience. David On Apr 7, 2010, at 7:38 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > As a political consultant I work with many different groups and people all over the political map. What I've seen from the Tea Party movement are people who were never concerned about politics until recently. Many of them never voted. They might watch the evening news, maybe look at a newspaper every now and again, but were not politically active. Now they feel motivated to speak up because they feel that their voices are not being heard. They are novices when it comes to politics and as such think with their hearts and not with their brains. They are emotionally wrapped up in what is going on, a mistake that many people make when they first get involved in politics. > > In politics there are no victories or losses, you are either ahead or waiting for the next opportunity to get the lead. > > Over the next few years many of these people will drift away from politics again and go back to their personal lives. Few will stay involved and will learn how to do politics. In time this will pass. > > Adam From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 01:35:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:35:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <37A75F7B-8ACC-496D-9BAC-26030B34F473@verizon.net> Don, Early Christians did not kill to defend their faith. Early Christians died to proclaim their faith. Wielding the sword only came after the time of Constantine, and the establishment of the Christian Church as the Official State Religion. At that time Christians of one persuasion would kill Christians of a different persuasion, and Christians of all persuasions would kill heretics and heathens to expand their faith. In contrast with the Christians with swords, Jesus didn't kill, he died. If that was a conscious choice, then it says something about his moral standard on the issue. A standard shared by the early Christian martyrs. David On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > Of course I am aware that Christians of the past wielded swords to protect their faith. > > Catholics also did atrocities in the past for which they now openly regret. > > Hebrews of the bible were warriors of their faith. The Crusaders were warriors of their faith. > > It doesn't mean they always did right in conducting wars, but if their lives and faiths were on the line, as in fighting Muslims, I cannot fault them in defending themselves and their faiths. > > Yet in the modern day and age, is it yet necessary to defend the faith with the sword? > > And if it ever does become necessary, would you turn the other cheek, or as an alternative, die like a sheep? > > Don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 06:18:31 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:18:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> When I give organizational training to political groups I always point something out at the very beginning. I tell them they (the political activists) do more politics in one year than the average person does in their entire life. Tomorrow morning people are going to wake up and find the newspaper at the front door, their car in the driveway and food in the refrigerator. They have no reason to get politically involved. When you can remove all those things at once then you'll have their attention. I see the Tea Party as people who experienced that disruption of the newspaper not there, their car missing and no food in the refrigerator. If you don't understand why this happened, you're first reaction will be anger. You might not plan out your steps on how to find out why this happened and how to get it all back quickly. The people I've met are for the most part intelligent, caring people who are motivated to get involved in the political process. And a good number of them are starting to learn how to effectively get involved. Some don't and probably never will. These are the ones that the media will find, for example the idiots who paint Hitler mustaches on President Obama. Everyone who is involved in politics, whether an activist, politician, intellectual or administrator, you had to start somewhere. This is the new graduating class. I'm not trying to be negative or dismissive of their movement, I actually agree with some of their points, but I don't get emotional about politics. As these people become more experienced they will be voting and expressing themselves effectively more in the future. This is why I see the political landscape changing, November will be a starting point if it doesn't burn out before then. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Adam, > > I expect that you have better contact with the people you describe than I, because of your work. And I can see human nature written large in your description. Especially the parts about "never concerned about politics until recently", "many never voted" and "not politically active". And how "they feel that their voices are not being heard". > > Funny thing. If someone never talks, their voice has said nothing, so there is nothing to be heard. Politicians are not psychics, no one knows what they think until they express it. > > If they have never voted, of course they are not well represented. The candidates, who would have represented them, didn't get enough votes to win. > > It is not sufficient to expect that the people who are elected will "do the right thing". There is no consensus on what constitutes "the right thing". This forum is a great example of that situation. We don't agree on the right thing, and there is only a dozen or so people in this discussion. > > When someone goes into government service they can choose some combination of "following the winds of public opinion" and "following their core beliefs". Or they may follow the powerful, or the money. > > Our legislators do have some sensitivity to the reality of the election process. So they listen to the voiced opinions of individual voters, the opinions of campaign contributors, and their personal conscience. > > David > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 7:38 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> As a political consultant I work with many different groups and people all over the political map. What I've seen from the Tea Party movement are people who were never concerned about politics until recently. Many of them never voted. They might watch the evening news, maybe look at a newspaper every now and again, but were not politically active. Now they feel motivated to speak up because they feel that their voices are not being heard. They are novices when it comes to politics and as such think with their hearts and not with their brains. They are emotionally wrapped up in what is going on, a mistake that many people make when they first get involved in politics. >> >> In politics there are no victories or losses, you are either ahead or waiting for the next opportunity to get the lead. >> >> Over the next few years many of these people will drift away from politics again and go back to their personal lives. Few will stay involved and will learn how to do politics. In time this will pass. >> >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 8 07:45:19 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:45:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > Of course I am aware that Christians of the past wielded swords to > protect > their faith. Um, well, the sacking of Constantinople was hardly to "protect" the faith. Constantinople was a Christian city, at that time the greatest city in the Christian world. But the holy warriors of the Fourth Crusade-- who had taken a solemn oath not to invade Christian lands-- diverted their trek to the Holy Land to besiege the great city for some months, finally broke through the walls in April 0f 1204, slaughtered, looted and raped to their hearts' content, and among other things destroyed the magnificent Library of Constantinople, containing many priceless works from Greek and Roman times. (After the earlier destruction of the great Library of Alexandria by another Christian mob, it seems a pattern was being established). The horrific atrocities during the city's fall were the last straw leading to the Great Schism between the Roman Catholic West and the Orthodox Christian East. Even the main goal of the Crusades, the conquest of the Holy Land, can be called "defending the faith" only with great charity-- the Crusaders themselves had little. Jerusalem was a great and thriving city populated by a prosperous mixture of Muslims, Christians, Jews and others. All were slaughtered without distinction when the city fell. We may ridicule the Islamists for continuing to howl about the Crusades, so many centuries after they ended. Yet they were almost as horrific as the invasions of the Mongol Horde. > > Catholics also did atrocities in the past for which they now openly > regret. Well, the Crusaders were Catholics. And after the Protestant Reformation, Catholics and Protestants also slaughtered each other on the pretense of religion, while the various sects of Protestants butchered each other on the pretext of petty doctrinal differences. > > Hebrews of the bible were warriors of their faith. The Crusaders were > warriors of their faith. > > It doesn't mean they always did right in conducting wars, but if > their lives > and faiths were on the line, as in fighting Muslims, I cannot fault > them in > defending themselves and their faiths. I'll reveal a dirty little secret-- a Secret Conspiracy, if you will. Most Holy Wars are not really about religion. Religion is merely the plausible excuse by which leaders justify their cynical and brutal pursuit of power and wealth, while the devout foot-soldiers die in their thousands in the struggle. The Hebrews were a pack of piratical nomads who swept through the prosperous kingdoms of Palestine like locusts-- hardly holy warriors. Read the ghastly passages in the Old Testament about Yahweh "directing" the slaughter of entire cities and specifying the divvying-up of the slaves, with careful specifications on the share of virgins going to the priests, etc. They weren't interested in "defending their faith," they were making it up as they went along to justify the horrors they committed. > > Yet in the modern day and age, is it yet necessary to defend the > faith with > the sword? WHICH faith? America has a very large but underrepresented population of Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, atheists and agnostics, etc.; but even the "godless" will fight like lions to defend their homes and families. (And I don't think they would bother with swords, automatic weapons and air power being so much more efficient). > > And if it ever does become necessary, would you turn the other > cheek, or as > an alternative, die like a sheep? What do YOU think? A humanist view of the world certainly does not require submission to injustice and murder. Nor does it require that one oppress and murder other people because of their faith, or lack of same. WW > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/7/2010 4:59:11 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Oh, my, Don, I thought you had a better grasp of history!! Please > see the > following (not necessarily the best site, but the first I found by > putting > Christian atrocities" into Google) - > > http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html > > However, you might argue that not one of these were true > Christians, and I > would tend to agree with you given my understanding of the > teachings of > Christ, but these atrocities were all done in the name of Christ. > And many > of them were done against the Muslims (or Musslemen, as they were > often > called in times past) for the sole purpose of driving them out of the > Christian" territories of what is now called the Middle East. The > long, long > history of the animosity of the Middle East against the Western > Civilizations makes the much more recent animosity of the US South > against > the North pale in comparison. But, both indicate how long a people > can hold > a grudge for the death of their family members. > > I am willing to bet that the Bush Wars of the 21st Century will be > remembered in the Middle East and in Afghanistan clear into the next > millennium, if not longer!! > > bob "my long memory growing shorter" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any > denomination > planning to kill anyone. > > > > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 8 08:48:30 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:48:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull, _Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull, _Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed"), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering _The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology, as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder against the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan's victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the "Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"to discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents was somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are 'metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the "Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera, for example, in his study of _A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's _Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento" a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. From nospam03 at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 09:21:37 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:21:37 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com><1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com><4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367><89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net><4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367><4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367><939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net><4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367><4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367><411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com><4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com><4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367><25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1997136091-1270743699-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2023918742-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The control of the people living in europe wasn't much different. Does anyone know why columbus set sail? The muslims held the Mediterranean making it tough to get through the old trade routes. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:48:30 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book,_Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull,_Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull,_Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed"), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering_The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology, as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder against the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan's victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the "Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"to discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents wa s somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are 'metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the "Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera, for example, in his study of_A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's_Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento" a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 8 10:13:41 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <1997136091-1270743699-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2023918742-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com><1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com><4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367><89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net><4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367><4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367><939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net><4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367><4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367><411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com><4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com><4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367><25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1997136091-1270743699-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2023918742-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D888784C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> As might be expected, Muslim presence or control in the Mediterranean is not a simple, easy claim. See: www.answers.com/topic/mediterranean-basin --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:22 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss The control of the people living in europe wasn't much different. Does anyone know why columbus set sail? The muslims held the Mediterranean making it tough to get through the old trade routes. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:48:30 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book,_Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull,_Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull,_Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed"), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering_The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology, as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder against the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan's victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the "Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"to discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents wa s somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are 'metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the "Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera, for example, in his study of_A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's_Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento" a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 10:29:32 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ignorance for ignorance's sake moves forward . . . .. In-Reply-To: <414955805-1270701396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2133501316-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBBA088.000037.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <01e301cad5d0$395e5dc0$ac1b1940$@com> <4BBBC6FB.4000809@gmail.com> <4BBD0986.3010007@jurislex.com><4BBD3EFC.3060204@gmail.com><4BBD4846.6090005@jurislex.com> <414955805-1270701396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2133501316-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BBE127C.6090206@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/e3f5b4b8/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 10:34:51 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:34:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/33fdff18/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 10:38:10 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:38:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBE1482.1020502@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/60ae8e40/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 8 10:42:51 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:42:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887938@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ah, Bob, I see that you are quoting Lord Acton. There is an interesting twist on this famous line: "Corruption empowers; absolute corruption empowers absolutely." Perhaps this line refers to Dick Cheney. I don't think the various popes needed much help along these lines. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:35 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Hey, Mike, you know what I told you about plagiarism. Are you sure the RC popes didn't just take their words right out of the Quran?? Or, was it vice versa ? ? ? bob "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" browning On 4/8/2010 8:48 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull, _Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull, _Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed"), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering _The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology, as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder again st the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan's victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the "Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"t o discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents was somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are 'metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the "Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera, for example, in his study of _A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's _Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento" a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2798 - Release Date: 04/07/10 23:32:00 From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 10:45:16 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:45:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Birthers threatened by Obama Attorney In-Reply-To: <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/0f5d2afa/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 10:46:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:46:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BBE1658.000007.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Yes they certainly did Walt, and after vowing not to attack Christian communities, but there was a lot more to the fourth crusade than we can cover here. 1. It was composed mostly of Roman Catholics from France and Italy. 2. The Greek Orthodox church promised support for the crusaders in soldiers and transport. 3. When the crusaders reached Greece they were refused entry to Constantinople and were faced with armed resistance. 4. The pope having earlier lost control of Greece wanted to return Greek Orthodox to control of the Vatican as Roman Catholics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/8/2010 7:45:01 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > Of course I am aware that Christians of the past wielded swords to > protect > their faith. Um, well, the sacking of Constantinople was hardly to "protect" the faith. Constantinople was a Christian city, at that time the greatest city in the Christian world. But the holy warriors of the Fourth Crusade-- who had taken a solemn oath not to invade Christian lands-- diverted their trek to the Holy Land to besiege the great city for some months, finally broke through the walls in April 0f 1204, slaughtered, looted and raped to their hearts' content, and among other things destroyed the magnificent Library of Constantinople, containing many priceless works from Greek and Roman times. (After the earlier destruction of the great Library of Alexandria by another Christian mob, it seems a pattern was being established). The horrific atrocities during the city's fall were the last straw leading to the Great Schism between the Roman Catholic West and the Orthodox Christian East. Even the main goal of the Crusades, the conquest of the Holy Land, can be called "defending the faith" only with great charity-- the Crusaders themselves had little. Jerusalem was a great and thriving city populated by a prosperous mixture of Muslims, Christians, Jews and others. All were slaughtered without distinction when the city fell. We may ridicule the Islamists for continuing to howl about the Crusades, so many centuries after they ended. Yet they were almost as horrific as the invasions of the Mongol Horde. > > Catholics also did atrocities in the past for which they now openly > regret. Well, the Crusaders were Catholics. And after the Protestant Reformation, Catholics and Protestants also slaughtered each other on the pretense of religion, while the various sects of Protestants butchered each other on the pretext of petty doctrinal differences. > > Hebrews of the bible were warriors of their faith. The Crusaders were > warriors of their faith. > > It doesn't mean they always did right in conducting wars, but if > their lives > and faiths were on the line, as in fighting Muslims, I cannot fault > them in > defending themselves and their faiths. I'll reveal a dirty little secret-- a Secret Conspiracy, if you will. Most Holy Wars are not really about religion. Religion is merely the plausible excuse by which leaders justify their cynical and brutal pursuit of power and wealth, while the devout foot-soldiers die in their thousands in the struggle. The Hebrews were a pack of piratical nomads who swept through the prosperous kingdoms of Palestine like locusts-- hardly holy warriors. Read the ghastly passages in the Old Testament about Yahweh "directing" the slaughter of entire cities and specifying the divvying-up of the slaves, with careful specifications on the share of virgins going to the priests, etc. They weren't interested in "defending their faith," they were making it up as they went along to justify the horrors they committed. > > Yet in the modern day and age, is it yet necessary to defend the > faith with > the sword? WHICH faith? America has a very large but underrepresented population of Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, atheists and agnostics, etc.; but even the "godless" will fight like lions to defend their homes and families. (And I don't think they would bother with swords, automatic weapons and air power being so much more efficient). > > And if it ever does become necessary, would you turn the other > cheek, or as > an alternative, die like a sheep? What do YOU think? A humanist view of the world certainly does not require submission to injustice and murder. Nor does it require that one oppress and murder other people because of their faith, or lack of same. WW > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/7/2010 4:59:11 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss > > Oh, my, Don, I thought you had a better grasp of history!! Please > see the > following (not necessarily the best site, but the first I found by > putting > Christian atrocities" into Google) - > > http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html > > However, you might argue that not one of these were true > Christians, and I > would tend to agree with you given my understanding of the > teachings of > Christ, but these atrocities were all done in the name of Christ. > And many > of them were done against the Muslims (or Musslemen, as they were > often > called in times past) for the sole purpose of driving them out of the > Christian" territories of what is now called the Middle East. The > long, long > history of the animosity of the Middle East against the Western > Civilizations makes the much more recent animosity of the US South > against > the North pale in comparison. But, both indicate how long a people > can hold > a grudge for the death of their family members. > > I am willing to bet that the Bush Wars of the 21st Century will be > remembered in the Middle East and in Afghanistan clear into the next > millennium, if not longer!! > > bob "my long memory growing shorter" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/7/2010 4:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Idealistic perhaps, but I cannot visualize a Christian of any > denomination > planning to kill anyone. > > > > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/f0a7e9e1/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 10:50:07 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:50:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887938@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com><1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887938@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE174F.4020107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/be9d87d8/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 8 10:53:08 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:53:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBE174F.4020107@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com><1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887938@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE174F.4020107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887A01@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Yes...I've seen you in some of those meetings. How did we reach this state of affairs? I'm depressed. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:50 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss I don't think it has to be Dick Cheney, Dick Nixon, Gen. MacArthur, or some Russian Communist leader. I have seen the same traits exhibited by certain city planning directors, city managers, heads of state agencies, etc., etc. The only difference is that the higher one goes, the longer one gets away with the abuses. Not unlike deficit funding, for which you and I can only go so long, but nations seem to be able to do it for many years, if not centuries, before they go bankrupt!! bob "brother, can you lend me a dime?" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/8/2010 10:42 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Ah, Bob, I see that you are quoting Lord Acton. There is an interesting twist on this famous line: "Corruption empowers; absolute corruption empowers absolutely." Perhaps this line refers to Dick Cheney. I don't think the various popes needed much help along these lines. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:35 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Hey, Mike, you know what I told you about plagiarism. Are you sure the RC popes didn't just take their words right out of the Quran?? Or, was it vice versa ? ? ? bob "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" browning From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 11:12:35 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:12:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Here's the next big thing . . . . Message-ID: <4BBE1C93.70107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/8ec1b7f3/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ewlogo-print.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/8ec1b7f3/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 27socialstudies_alamo_515.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 106488 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/8ec1b7f3/attachment-0003.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pdf.gif Type: image/gif Size: 134 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/8ec1b7f3/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 11:17:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:17:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE1DCD.000017.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Nice job Mike. I admire the amount of research you did, but reserve the right to disagree if I do Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/8/2010 8:49:20 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull, _Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull, _Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed"), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering _The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder against the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan's victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the "Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"to discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents was somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are 'metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera for example, in his study of _A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's _Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/799b416e/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 11:22:09 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:22:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A fascinating blog on the role of education in a democracy . . Message-ID: <4BBE1ED1.2050404@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/c74d9ef4/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 12:06:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:06:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Here's the next big thing . . . . References: <4BBE1C93.70107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBE2921.000023.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Yes, it has been ongoing for awhile now, emitting from the education CZAR, propelled by politics, and drawn to the radical right agenda, but it is push/pull on what groups will eventually win. Education of our kids are at stake. The end product must help the kids. I was asked about right and left agendas, and my answer is I favor neither, and abhor elements of both. Money wise it would be millions, if not billions, of dollars cheaper to leave the books as they are. But be aware that if the education CZAR has his way with textbooks, you will not like the end product. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/8/2010 11:13:00 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Here's the next big thing . . . . I didn't even know that Oregon was revising its social studies standards ! ? ! ? bob "here we go again" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Published Online: March 25, 2010 History a Flash Point as States Debate Standards Members of the Texas board of education discussed how schools will teach the Battle of the Alamo of 1836 during a wide-ranging debate preceding the board s March 12 vote giving preliminary approval to revised social studies standards. ?Library of Congress By Erik W. Robelen As debate continues around the development and adoption of common standards in English and mathematics, several states are independently wrestling with rewrites of standards in a content area largely absent from that national discussion?social studies?and encountering their own shares of controversy. Flash points in the social studies debates tend to occur in the teaching of history, from what should be taught to when and how much. History, in fact, appears to be repeating itself. Many of the issues are throwbacks to the squabbles that enmeshed the voluntary national standards in that subject a decade and a half ago, when critics complained about an ideological bias and contended that the standards omitted key historical symbols and figures. (They were there, in the elementary school document, though not repeated in the standards for secondary students.) ?This is probably the hardest set of standards to get right, because you?re getting into social debates about whose history matters and those sorts of things,? said Terry Ryan, the vice president for Ohio programs and policy at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a Washington-based think tank. In the current climate, the Texas effort has attracted the most attention, with its arguments over the separation of church and state, whether hip-hop merits study as a cultural movement, and a successful push to highlight the ?conservative resurgence? in recent decades, including such players as Phyllis Schlafly and the Moral Majority. Led by a bloc of staunch conservatives, the state board of education this month gave tentative approval to the standards on a party-line vote of 10-5, with all Democrats opposed. North Carolina?s state education agency, meanwhile, has promised to rethink the handling of American history outlined in a December draft of social studies standards, in the face of an avalanche of critical feedback. Many teachers and historians complained that the document gave short shrift to U S. history, especially in high school, where coverage of the subject would have begun in 1877, after Reconstruction. In Ohio, discussion over revising social studies standards appears more subdued so far, though a number of groups have expressed concerns with drafts put out for public comment recently. For instance, the Ohio Council for the Social Studies is criticizing the lack of a required course in modern world history and asserts that the draft fails to build in sufficiently and clearly so-called ?21st-century skills? as mandated under a recent state law, while others have complained about changes to scale back U S. history content in the 5th grade. A related concern in Ohio goes beyond the standards and raises questions about their classroom relevance. As a result of budget cuts, the state recently suspended for two years its social studies tests in the 5th and 8th grades (along with writing tests in grades 4 and 7). ?Most people know that if it?s not tested, it?s not taught,? said William A. Harris, who teaches history and government at Cedarville High School in Cedarville, Ohio, and is the president of the Ohio Council for the Social Studies. ?It?s the continued marginalization of social studies that we?re seeing, not only in our state, but nationwide.? Too Many Names? State efforts to rewrite social studies standards come as concerns persist that this and other areas of the curriculum, such as the arts, are getting squeezed out of the classroom, in large part because of the federal No Child Left Behind Act?s emphasis on reading and math. In addition to North Carolina, Ohio, and Texas, at least two other states, Oregon and South Carolina, are currently revising social studies standards, though both are early in the process and have yet to release a draft for public comment. In Texas, the standards are being revised for the first time since 1997, following recent updates in other subject areas, including math, English, and science. The project has drawn national interest not only because of the political controversy, but also because the standards will guide the state?s selection of new textbooks in 2011. Given the size of the Texas market, the state?s work is seen as influencing the textbooks some other states and school districts use. A committee assembled by the state, including teachers, academics, and others, worked last year to revise the standards, in collaboration with seven ?expert reviewers? named by the state board of education. The state board began debating, and amending, the draft standards at a round of meetings in January, and continued with three more days of deliberations this month. In all, the board has debated more than 300 amendments and is scheduled to reconvene in May to adopt the final standards. Social conservatives on the elected Texas board have said one priority is to balance a perceived liberal bias in the presentation of history to Texas students; critics contend that the conservatives are using the standards to promote a right-wing agenda. The conservatives have pushed, and won passage of, a variety of amendments. One measure, narrowly adopted, calls on schools to describe the ?conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract with America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority, and the National Rifle Association.? Another that won approval says students should consider the ?unintended consequences? of the Great Society programs of the 1960s, affirmative action, and Title IX. GOP members, meanwhile, shot down an amendment put forth by Democrats that would have required schools to ?examine the reasons the Founding Fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion over all others.? Board member Terri Leo, a Republican, hailed the standards as a ?world-class document? after the plan won tentative approval March 12, while Democrat Mary Helen Berlanga said she had a ?very long list of reasons for voting against it,? including concern that it fails to ?depict history in an accurate fashion.? At least one Republican, Bob Craig, who voted against his GOP colleagues on some amendments but ultimately supported the package, said he has misgivings ?I?m still not convinced that we?ve got the best document right now, but hopefully by May, with additional input from the public, from teachers, maybe we can reach that goal,? he said. Beyond concerns about the influence of political and cultural agendas on the Texas standards, another issue is the sheer volume of information, especially names of people that schools will be expected to teach. The list grew steadily, thanks to board amendments. ?If we could just condense the [number of] names,? Democrat Lawrence A. Allen Jr., urged his fellow board members at the March meeting. ?It takes away from the value and the ability to really do some critical analysis and teaching and evaluation. ... You only have time to deliver the information.? The composition of the Texas board will see some changes, based on this month?s Texas primaries, though new members won?t join before the final vote on the standards in May. Perhaps most notable was the defeat of Don McLeroy, a leader of the board?s social-conservative bloc, by moderate Republican Thomas Ratcliff. Eight of the board?s 15 seats will be on the November ballot. ?Too Precious? In North Carolina, education officials have encountered plenty of resistance to a first draft of new social studies standards, especially because of concerns about when U.S. history is taught and how much attention it would get. The state education department received thousands of e-mail comments criticizing the draft, plus a strongly worded letter from a powerful lawmaker. ?Any changes the state makes to teaching U.S. history must be an enhancement to what students learn in high school and not downshifting in any way,? said Democratic Sen. Marc Basnight, his chamber?s president pro tempore. ?Do not carry on with the thoughts of the changes as presented. U.S. history is too precious and important and must be taught in its entirety during the high school years.? Vanessa W. Jeter, a spokeswoman for the department, emphasized that North Carolina?s draft standards will go through several rounds of revisions, and that the agency anticipates significant changes to the high school component with more time likely to be carved out for U.S. history. ?One course probably will not cut it,? she said. In general, department officials have emphasized, in responding to criticism of the first draft, that the idea in scaling back the breadth of the 11th grade U.S. history course was to allow students more time to study history in depth and to spread around some of the coverage, with additional emphasis before high school. ?We have been criticized in the past for having a curriculum that is an inch deep and a mile wide,? Ms. Jeter said. But Holly Brewer, an associate professor of colonial and revolutionary American history at North Carolina State University in Raleigh who has worked to galvanize opposition to the draft, said recent statements from department officials have been misleading. Ms. Brewer, a state coordinator for the National Council for History Education, takes issue, for example, with the notion that the plan would ensure students ultimately get ?more history.? ?We looked all through the standards quite carefully at all the grade levels ? she said, and did not find evidence to support the state education department?s claim. Ms. Brewer added: ?In the early grades, there were huge gaps in coverage.? She also asserted that because of pressure from No Child Left Behind Act requirements, most elementary schools ?spend 15 minutes a week? on social studies. John Dornan, the executive director of the Public School Forum of North Carolina, a Raleigh-based think tank, said he sees the dispute as a ?classic clash? between ensuring students learn about the ?global world? while also attending to U.S. history. ?I hope we can find a middle ground on this,? he said. Lynne Munson, the president and executive director of Common Core, a Washington-based group that advocates giving students a strong grounding across disciplines, said it would be a big mistake to scale back the breadth of American history coverage in high school. ?I do think once you?re in high school and your intellectual development and background knowledge [have expanded], ... you can restudy the American past in a way that will bring more meaning than you might have been able to glean at earlier grades,? she said. Nevertheless, analysts say that at least some states split U.S. history between a survey course in the 8th grade and another in high school. The North Carolina draft did not include such a survey course in the 8th grade, but did contain a 7th grade course called the ?State, Nation, and World? from the 1600s to the early 1970s. ?Kind of an Art? In Ohio, the draft social studies standards, first issued for public comment in November, with a second draft released this month, would replace ones approved in 2002. Stan Heffner, an associate superintendent at the Ohio education department, said the state has long been getting suggestions from teachers and others on how to improve the standards. ?Most importantly among them, and it?s not limited to social studies, teachers said, ?We?ve got more standards than we know how to manage,? ? he said. ?If we want to get some depth, we want to identify the real key, fundamental standards, and also try to organize them in a way? to promote more sound ?learning progressions.? Furthermore, the state is aiming to better integrate the standards with essential skills, he said. Mr. Heffner said Ohio has heard from a lot of groups advocating increased focus on specific areas of history and other topics, such as the American Revolution or military history, but is trying to find the right balance between appropriate coverage and giving teachers leeway to spend more time on a particular subject. ?It?s kind of an art,? he said. In Colorado, meanwhile, the state board of education in December adopted a new set of social studies standards. Several people involved in that undertaking say it produced relatively little, if any, significant controversy. Fritz Fischer, a history professor at Northern Colorado University who co-chaired the committee that led the standards rewrite, contrasts the effort in several ways with the process in Texas. The Texas standards, Mr. Fischer noted, ?have devolved into this long, long list of names, keeping people in, keeping people out. That?s going to be an endless debate.? The mantra in Colorado, he said, was to devise ?fewer, clearer, higher? standards. Also, unlike both Texas and North Carolina, he said, ?we can?t dictate curriculum at the state level.? In the end, one of the most striking differences compared with the Texas experience, Mr. Fischer said, was how the Colorado state board?whose members he said, span the ideological spectrum?responded to the standards committee?s work. ?The state board, with very few exceptions, let us do our work and accepted what we did,? said Mr. Fischer, who is also the chairman of the National Council for History Education. The standards ultimately won unanimous board approval. ?It?s about good history and teaching and learning,? Mr. Fischer said. ?It?s not about partisanship.? Vol. 29, Issue 27 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13130 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/912ef250/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 106488 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/912ef250/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 134 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/912ef250/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/912ef250/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 12:10:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:10:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887938@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE2A3E.000026.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Dick Cheney isn't so powerful. He is out of power isn't he? So kick him around awhile just for fun, and ignore those who are really hurting you. Tongue in Cheek. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/8/2010 10:43:03 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Ah, Bob, I see that you are quoting Lord Acton. There is an interesting twist on this famous line: "Corruption empowers; absolute corruption empowers absolutely." Perhaps this line refers to Dick Cheney. I don't think the various popes needed much help along these lines. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:35 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Hey, Mike, you know what I told you about plagiarism. Are you sure the RC popes didn't just take their words right out of the Quran?? Or, was it vice versa ? ? ? bob "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" browning On 4/8/2010 8:48 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull, _Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull, _Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed ), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering _The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder again st the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan s victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"t o discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents was somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera for example, in his study of _A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's _Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2798 - Release Date: 04/07/10 23:32:00 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/6c8c868b/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 12:13:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:13:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> <4BBE1482.1020502@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBE2AE9.000029.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Don't look now Bob, but Adam is right. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/8/2010 10:38:25 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Adam, are you one of those dread "community organizers ? ! ? ! bob "who are you??" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/8/2010 6:18 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: When I give organizational training to political groups I always point something out at the very beginning. I tell them they (the political activists) do more politics in one year than the average person does in their entire life. Tomorrow morning people are going to wake up and find the newspaper at the front door, their car in the driveway and food in the refrigerator. They have no reason to get politically involved. When you can remove all those things at once then you'll have their attention. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/37ceadd1/attachment-0001.gif From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 8 12:17:35 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:17:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBE2AE9.000029.02576@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> <4BBE1482.1020502@jurislex.com> <4BBE2AE9.000029.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBE2BCF.1090404@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100408/219f8ca9/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 12:18:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:18:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBE2BEC.00002E.02576@DON-B2514E06367> It is said by Muslims that Mohammed went to the mountain with a Bible in one hand, and writing materials in the other hand. Maybe that is why some passages in the Quoran resemble some passages from the Bible. Maybe they had no plagiarism laws then. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/8/2010 10:35:08 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Hey, Mike, you know what I told you about plagiarism. Are you sure the RC popes didn't just take their words right out of the Quran?? Or, was it vice versa ? ? ? bob "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" browning On 4/8/2010 8:48 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": --Mike Before the ships carrying Columbus and his crews were first seen by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the destinies of the natives had already been declared in a variety of texts, words written in a dead language the targeted people could not possibly have known, inscribing theological concepts of dominion that were perhaps even more alien. A 1302 papal bull, _Unam Sanctum_, of Boniface VIII asserted the pontiff's absolute right to dominion: "that to be submitted to the Roman pontiff is for any creature a necessity for salvation." (In stark contrast to this, the Wintu people of California reportedly had no words with which to express "personal dominion and coercion . . . . so foreign were those concepts to their way of life"). Pope Nicolas V issued a papal bull, _Romanus Pontifex_, in 1454 that seemed to reach the logical extension of the 1302 position: in it, Nicolas denies non-Christians the right to their own possessions; gives to the Portuguese the right to invade and conquer the lands of non-Christians, force their expulsion, vanquish them, enslave them, and "expropriate their possessions" (actions to be taken against "pagans and all other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed ), a document that bears certain attitudinal similarities to the subsequent Spanish "Requierimento." Loyola's Jesuits could read in his _Exercises_ of the order's desire to "conquer the whole world," especially "all the lands of the infidels." In the case of failed attempts to convert non-Christians on terra nullis, colonizers could kill the natives as "an act of faith and a religious duty. . . ." [....]Francis Jennings, in considering _The Invasion of America_, notes "it was hard to proclaim a righteously defensive war against an enemy who had never ventured within a thousand miles of one's domain. Happily there was a saving precedent: the Crusades had well established that war conducted in the interests of the Holy Church was automatically just." How appropriate, then, that Columbus reported that the natives he encountered in the New World were ignorant of warfare and weapons and had no words for it. Here we can see yet another example of the collision between a potent, militarized Western culture sustained by centuries of a theology of sacred violence with a relatively nonviolent culture lacking a symmetrical theology as well as the will to destroy. As Leonardo Boff notes of Spanish thoughts on sacred violence--the natives only heard the Gospel when it was accompanied by the cannon's roar. Gonzalo Fern?ndez de Oviedo thus called for "Gunpowder again st the infidel, and incense for the Lord!" [....]Given the enormity of what he would "find," Columbus was not very well prepared for whatever it was he hoped to encounter. He did, however, see to it that he had a translator on his first expedition. This person was qualified to translate--Hebrew and Aramaic. One wonders precisely what it was that motivated the great Admiral of the Seas to include someone in his venture, supposedly to India, with these qualifications. What cultural mandate was he responding to? Did he expect to encounter people from the Holy Land? Were there expectations lingering from Europe's various Crusading expeditions to the Holy Land? What sense of Judaism did Columbus and his supporters possess? Had he actually come face to face with someone speaking Hebrew, after a voyage of several thousands of miles, what cultural expectations would Columbus have brought to the moment? Would he have seen a Christ killer, and behaved accordingly? In light of the expulsion of Jews from Spain [which, ironically, happened on the same day that he voyaged forth from Spain], would he have seen a person unworthy of living under the Crown he served? Would he have initiated Christianity's usual conversion efforts (there were no priests on this first voyage, but there were thirteen priests accompanying Columbus on his second voyage). Roy Harvey Pearce captures the salient point about conversion for the indigenous people, one that would hold true for the next five centuries: "Save him, and you save one of Satan s victims. Destroy him, and you have destroyed one of Satan's partisans." Djelal Kadir, who sees Columbus as "a cultural phenomenon," along with many other scholars notes that Columbus undertook his voyage by sailing in God's name, "an unquestionable form of enablement that justifies all acts and sanctifies all means." The royal charter that sustained Columbus, the Capitulaciones de Santa Fe", signed on 30 April 1492, authorized him--no less than seven times--"t o discover and conquer." (Englishman John Cabot's letter patents was somewhat more circumspect in this regard at first; he is authorized to "seek out, discover, and find. . . ." However, the same document then immediately adds that he is also to "subdue, occupy, and possess . . . ." Kadir then makes a crucial point: nowhere do we find the objects of these verbs, the Other humans in those distant lands, mentioned in these texts. "They are metonymically' displaced into annihilation." -much like Jews were often absent in German documents dealing with their annihilation. In any case, the English have a right to "just invasion and conquest" -a clear echo of the role of sacred violence in the service of dominion). In 1513, Palacios Rubios devised a written text for the use of Pedrarias Davila in his colonizing expedition to the mainland of the New World. This text, a key example in the Western European Christian discourse that targeted The Other, was called the "Requierimento." The text required the indigenous people to agree to be in the Spanish crown's service, but did not mandate conversion (although the missionaries would see to that in short order: within a century of its initial colonizing efforts, Spain sponsored six ecclesiastical provinces, thirty-two dioceses, 60,000 churches, and 400 monasteries ). The Spanish colonizers would read the following: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses command. And we shall take your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict them. By this point in this study, it is a fairly easy matter to see how the Requierimento" represents disturbing vestiges of cultural and theological attitudes towards The Other that had been forming and evolving within Western European Christianity over a span of several centuries. Luis Rivera for example, in his study of _A Violent Evangelism_, traces the willingness to use capital punishment as a device against heresy to Aquinas's _Summa_, thereby implicating one of the leading minds of the Church in later events that would culminate in genocide. Accordingly, we see in the "Requierimento a solemn promise, or threat, regarding the use of the sacred violence that had previously afflicted The Other countless times, the expectation for obedience, the dominion of the Church over the property, bodies, and souls of people for whom nothing could be more alien, an acceptance of and threat to use of slavery, and complete disregard for the sanctity of the central family unit. First used by Oviedo in 1514, the Spanish were required to read this statement to all new groups of natives they encountered in spite of the ridiculous fact that those for whom this was intended could not understand this strange language and its even stranger ideology, much less the attitudes behind it. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2798 - Release Date: 04/07/10 23:32:00 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/590efb76/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 22:01:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:01:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Religious or not, this should scare everyone. And it is true, and documented true. What do you all think of these facts? Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? Don Following the statements of fact, there are some personal opinions of Christians. Take those as you will, but please pay critical attention to what Obama is doing to America. Posted by Emil J Milano/Founder on April 9, 2010 at 12:16am in THE UPPER ROOM Back to THE UPPER ROOM Discussions This is chilling In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a "National Day of Prayer." In 1988, President Reagan designated the First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of Prayer. In June 2007, (then) Presidential Candidate Barack Obama declared that the USA Was no longer a Christian nation. This year President Obama, canceled the 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White House under the rouse Of "not wanting to offend anyone" On September 25, 2009 from 4 am until 7 pm, a National Day of Prayer for the Muslim religion was Held on Capitol Hill, Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims that Day in DC. I guess it Doesn't matter if "Christians" Are offended by this event - We obviously Don't count as "anyone" Anymore. The direction This country is headed Should strike fear in the heart of every Christian. Especially knowing that the Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be Converted they should be Annihilated This is not a Rumor - Go to the website To confirm this info: ( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ ) Pay particular Attention to the very Bottom of the page: "OUR TIME HAS COME" I hope that this Information will stir your spirit. The words of 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, Who are called by my Name, Will humble themselves And pray, And seek my face, and Turn from their Wicked ways, Then will I hear from Heaven And will forgive their Sin and will heal Their land." We must pray for Our nation, our communities, Our families, and Especially our children. They are the ones That are going to suffer the most If we don't PRAY! May God have Mercy... IN GOD WE TRUST. Replies to This Discussion Permalink Reply by Earline Clark 17 minutes ago Emil, not only did he allow the Muslims their prayer in OUR White House but there are pictures of obama taking off his own shoes to bow and pray to their heithen god. And he had the audacity to deny us our National Prayer Day. We should pray for this demon infested man I guess, it is the Christian thing to do. But how do I ask My God to have mercy on his soul, to keep him from harm after the way he has done Him? GINGRICH: Obama 'most radical president ever'... LIMBAUGH: Obama 'inflicting untold damage on this great country'... PALIN: Obama's Nuke Stance Like Kid Who Says 'Punch Me in Face'... LIZ CHENEY: Obama Putting America on 'Path to Decline'... SAVAGE: 'Obama The Destroyer'... NO-GO: NETANYAHU FEARS ISLAMIC AMBUSH I try to listen to Rush everyday. He is one of my favorites. Today Rush said concerning Iran and sanctions that Obama does not want to hurt the Iranian people with tough sanctions, but Obama has no problem hurting us with his policies. Permalink Reply by Emil J Milano/Founder 2 minutes ago Send Message Nor is he at all concerned with hurting the people of Israel. And, we know where that leads. Welcome to G&C USA Richard, I can see you will be another asset to an already Blessed by the Lord site. I have been having some issues with the server so have fallen far behind today but have read some of what you have posted. I am constantly in prayer for Godly laborers for His field here and He has never let us down. I am sure you will soon feel the love among the members soon. We are a nondenominational site and we tear down the walls of division and follow the new command of the Lord found in Mk 12: 30,31 Be Blessed as you Bless. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100408/12a82909/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 8 22:16:46 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:16:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting Fossil Discovery Message-ID: <000901cad7a3$da263aa0$8e72afe0$@com> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-fossils-australopithe cus-sediba-missing-link-new-species-human/ Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 8 22:18:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:18:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: I think these facts are all carefully hand-picked and taken out of context to further the far-right myth that Obama is a Muslim. Give it a rest, for Crissake! I'm off now... WW On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > Religious or not, this should scare everyone. > > And it is true, and documented true. > > What do you all think of these facts? > > Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? > > Don > > Following the statements of fact, there are some personal opinions of > Christians. Take those as you will, but please pay critical > attention to > what Obama is doing to America. > > > > Posted by Emil J Milano/Founder on April 9, 2010 at 12:16am in THE > UPPER > ROOM > Back to THE UPPER ROOM Discussions > > This is chilling > > In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a > "National Day of > Prayer." > > In 1988, > President Reagan designated the > First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of > Prayer. > > In June 2007, > (then) Presidential > Candidate Barack Obama declared that the > USA > Was no longer a > Christian nation. > > This year > President Obama, canceled the > 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White > House under the rouse > Of "not wanting to offend anyone" > > On September 25, > 2009 from 4 am until 7 > pm, a National Day of Prayer for the Muslim religion was > Held on Capitol Hill, > Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims that > Day in DC. > > I guess it > Doesn't matter if "Christians" > Are offended by this event - > We obviously > Don't count as "anyone" > Anymore. > > The direction > This country is headed > Should strike fear in the heart of every Christian. > Especially knowing that the > Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be > Converted they should be > Annihilated > > This is not a > Rumor - Go to the website > To confirm this info: > ( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ ) > > > Pay particular > Attention to the very > Bottom of the page: > "OUR TIME HAS > COME" > > > I hope that this > Information will stir your spirit. > > The words of 2 > Chronicles 7:14 > > "If my people, > Who are called by my > Name, > Will humble themselves > And pray, > > And seek my face, and > Turn from their > Wicked ways, > Then will I hear from > Heaven > > And will forgive their > Sin and will heal > Their land." > > We must pray for > Our nation, our communities, > > Our families, and > Especially our children. > > > They are the ones > That are going to suffer the most > > If we don't PRAY! > > > May God have Mercy... > > IN GOD WE TRUST. > > > Replies to This Discussion > > Permalink Reply by Earline Clark 17 minutes ago > Emil, not only did he allow the Muslims their prayer in OUR White > House but > there are pictures of obama taking off his own shoes to bow and > pray to > their heithen god. And he had the audacity to deny us our National > Prayer > Day. We should pray for this demon infested man I guess, it is the > Christian > thing to do. But how do I ask My God to have mercy on his soul, to > keep him > from harm after the way he has done Him? > > GINGRICH: Obama 'most radical president ever'... > LIMBAUGH: Obama 'inflicting untold damage on this great country'... > PALIN: Obama's Nuke Stance Like Kid Who Says 'Punch Me in Face'... > LIZ CHENEY: Obama Putting America on 'Path to Decline'... > SAVAGE: 'Obama The Destroyer'... > NO-GO: NETANYAHU FEARS ISLAMIC AMBUSH > > I try to listen to Rush everyday. He is one of my favorites. Today > Rush said > concerning Iran and sanctions that Obama does not want to hurt the > Iranian > people with tough sanctions, but Obama has no problem hurting us > with his > policies. > > Permalink Reply by Emil J Milano/Founder 2 minutes ago > Send Message > Nor is he at all concerned with hurting the people of Israel. And, > we know > where that leads. Welcome to G&C USA Richard, I can see you will be > another > asset to an already Blessed by the Lord site. I have been having > some issues > with the server so have fallen far behind today but have read some > of what > you have posted. > > I am constantly in prayer for Godly laborers for His field here and > He has > never let us down. I am sure you will soon feel the love among the > members > soon. We are a nondenominational site and we tear down the walls of > division > and follow the new command of the Lord found in Mk 12: 30,31 > > Be Blessed as you > Bless._____________________ > __________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 23:22:32 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:22:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> Let's see? President Truman - "Now, Therefore, I, Harry S. Truman, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Friday, July 4, 1952, as a National Day of Prayer, on which all of us, in our churches, in our homes, and in our hearts, may beseech God to grant us wisdom to know the course which we should follow, and strength and patience to pursue that course steadfastly. May we also give thanks to Him for His constant watchfulness over us in every hour of national prosperity and national peril." President Eisenhower - "On September twenty-second, [1954] we are therefore observing, with an act of faith, a national day of prayer. Throughout the United States of America, whatever our ancestry, whatever our religious affiliation, we shall offer simultaneously to the Almighty our personal prayers for the devotion, wisdom and stamina to work unceasingly for a just and lasting peace for all mankind." President Reagan: "Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, May 7, 1981, National Day of Prayer. On that day I ask all who believe to join with me in giving thanks to Almighty God for the blessings He has bestowed on this land and the protection He affords us as a people. Let us as a Nation join together before God, fully aware of the trials that lie ahead and the need, yes, the necessity, for divine guidance. With unshakeable faith in God and the liberty which is heritage, we as a free Nation will surely survive and prosper." President Obama - "NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 2009, as a National Day of Prayer. I call upon Americans to pray in thanksgiving for our freedoms and blessings and to ask for God's continued guidance, grace, and protection for this land that we love. " So what are the "facts"? Our Presidents, including Obama, have called for a National Day of Prayer. Prayer "in our churches, in our homes, in our hearts" Prayer "whatever our religious affiliation" Prayer "giving thanks", "guidance" Prayer "in thanksgiving" and ask for "continued guidance, grace, and protection for this land" So, what is your point? That you want to return to the religious grandstanding of the previous administration? Yes, even Obama made a Proclamation for a National Day of Prayer. What about the "facts"? Simply, they are distortions intended to cause the weak to panic. Did it work? BTW, the Muslim gathering, like the Million Man March was independent of the government. David On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > Religious or not, this should scare everyone. > > And it is true, and documented true. > > What do you all think of these facts? > > Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? > > Don From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 8 23:37:46 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:37:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C 0E5D5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001b01cad7af$2b3ff1a0$81bfd4e0$@com> > From: David Morelli > > What about the "facts"? > > Simply, they are distortions intended to cause the weak > to panic. Did it work? > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > > > In June 2007, (then) Presidential Candidate Barack > > Obama declared that the USA Was no longer a Christian > > nation. You realize that's a twisting of what he actually said in his speech, right? http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html The tactics you're using (attempting to use religion to divide people) is called out in his speech actually as you'll find in the following article (or not if you choose to read selectively, only looking for the little tidbits that'll support your position): http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=67735 Don't believe both of these credible sources? Listen to the bit of the speech that's actually being referenced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmC3IevZiik Enjoy, Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 23:36:50 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:36:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: But Mike, we were just defending Christianity from the heathens. If we hadn't done that, we might have appropriated some of their ideas when we were busy appropriating their resources. Wait, didn't we get our numbering system from the heathens? How can Christianity survive using the heathen's 1's and 0's. We have to stop the threat. We must kill all machines that use the 1/0 method of calculation, to defend Christianity. In fact we might need to get rid of languages taken from the heathens. Celtic, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon. We must go back to the language of the early church. Back to Greek and Latin. Yes, that's the solution! Let's talk like the people who put Jesus and the early martyrs to death. Oh? Wait. That plan needs some review and minor changes. We have to purge the heathens from our midst. Is "heathen" a heathen word? Shouldn't we be using "barbarian"? Drat! This "Religious Correctness" is as difficult as "Political Correctness". David On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Ah, I see that this discussion has reached a point where I have something to say. I deal with "sacred violence" in my 2003 book, _Christianity, The Other, and the Holocaust_. Chapter five of the book deals with "Contact with Indigenous People," and follows chapters using culture studies to discuss Church law applied to Jews, the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Here are a few paragraphs detailing the ideological and cultural background to the genocide the Christians practiced in the early decades of "contact": > > --Mike From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 23:39:27 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:39:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBE1482.1020502@jurislex.com> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0201.000043.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD418D.9090009@gmail.com> <01B8C9EA-9CC7-4D6B-8378-85BC691EF0EC@verizon.net> <4BBDD7A7.9070800@gmail.com> <4BBE1482.1020502@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <08DB2503-BB49-4045-B7B7-C4499BF707B6@verizon.net> Good catch. I missed that. David On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Adam, are you one of those dread "community organizers ? ! ? ! > > bob "who are you??" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/8/2010 6:18 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> When I give organizational training to political groups I always point something out at the very beginning. I tell them they ... From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 8 23:48:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:48:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBE2BEC.00002E.02576@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBD1912.000059.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBD1C3D.8020800@jurislex.com> <4BBD6071.000095.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <25F17459-0340-46F7-BA2C-A2FD2D85F1FB@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8887583@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BBE13BB.9080008@jurislex.com> <4BBE2BEC.00002E.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1BF7B19D-2163-4441-B393-74B59CAE6A70@verizon.net> Muslims say that? Here I thought that Mohammed was illiterate, and he only "recited" his work. Which is why it is called the Quoran (recitations). There were Christians and Jews in Arabia. Mohammed had contact with them and he had opportunity to learn aspects of their religion and scripture from them. His early work spoke favorably of the People of the Book, and it wasn't until they refused to follow his new prophecy that his opinion hardened agains them. David On Apr 8, 2010, at 12:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > It is said by Muslims that Mohammed went to the mountain with a Bible in one hand, and writing materials in the other hand. > > Maybe that is why some passages in the Quoran resemble some passages from the Bible. > > Maybe they had no plagiarism laws then. > > Don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 06:34:31 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:34:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BBF2CE7.5040105@gmail.com> I vaguely remember in American history, before the state of Texas changed my textbooks, about separation of church and state. A national day of prayer kind of goes against that in my book. This is one of the few things that I agreed with President Obama, very few things indeed. But the government should not be sponsoring "prayer" days, people have to do that on their own. Adam donkelly wrote: > Religious or not, this should scare everyone. > > > > And it is true, and documented true. > > > > What do you all think of these facts? > > > > Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? > > > > Don > > > > Following the statements of fact, there are some personal opinions of > Christians. Take those as you will, but please pay critical attention to > what Obama is doing to America. > > > > > > > > Posted by Emil J Milano/Founder on April 9, 2010 at 12:16am in THE UPPER > ROOM > > Back to THE UPPER ROOM Discussions > > > > This is chilling > > > > In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a "National Day of > Prayer." > > > > In 1988, > > President Reagan designated the > > First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of > > Prayer. > > > > In June 2007, > > (then) Presidential > > Candidate Barack Obama declared that the > > USA > > Was no longer a > > Christian nation. > > > > This year > > President Obama, canceled the > > 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White > > House under the rouse > > Of "not wanting to offend anyone" > > > > On September 25, > > 2009 from 4 am until 7 > > pm, a National Day of Prayer for the Muslim religion was > > Held on Capitol Hill, > > Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims that > > Day in DC. > > > > I guess it > > Doesn't matter if "Christians" > > Are offended by this event - > > We obviously > > Don't count as "anyone" > > Anymore. > > > > The direction > > This country is headed > > Should strike fear in the heart of every Christian. > > Especially knowing that the > > Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be > > Converted they should be > > Annihilated > > > > This is not a > > Rumor - Go to the website > > To confirm this info: > > ( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ ) > > > > > > Pay particular > > Attention to the very > > Bottom of the page: > > "OUR TIME HAS > > COME" > > > > > > I hope that this > > Information will stir your spirit. > > > > The words of 2 > > Chronicles 7:14 > > > > "If my people, > > Who are called by my > > Name, > > Will humble themselves > > And pray, > > > > And seek my face, and > > Turn from their > > Wicked ways, > > Then will I hear from > > Heaven > > > > And will forgive their > > Sin and will heal > > Their land." > > > > We must pray for > > Our nation, our communities, > > > > Our families, and > > Especially our children. > > > > > > They are the ones > > That are going to suffer the most > > > > If we don't PRAY! > > > > > > May God have Mercy... > > > > IN GOD WE TRUST. > > > > > > Replies to This Discussion > > > > Permalink Reply by Earline Clark 17 minutes ago > > Emil, not only did he allow the Muslims their prayer in OUR White House but > there are pictures of obama taking off his own shoes to bow and pray to > their heithen god. And he had the audacity to deny us our National Prayer > Day. We should pray for this demon infested man I guess, it is the Christian > thing to do. But how do I ask My God to have mercy on his soul, to keep him > from harm after the way he has done Him? > > > > GINGRICH: Obama 'most radical president ever'... > > LIMBAUGH: Obama 'inflicting untold damage on this great country'... > > PALIN: Obama's Nuke Stance Like Kid Who Says 'Punch Me in Face'... > > LIZ CHENEY: Obama Putting America on 'Path to Decline'... > > SAVAGE: 'Obama The Destroyer'... > > NO-GO: NETANYAHU FEARS ISLAMIC AMBUSH > > > > I try to listen to Rush everyday. He is one of my favorites. Today Rush said > concerning Iran and sanctions that Obama does not want to hurt the Iranian > people with tough sanctions, but Obama has no problem hurting us with his > policies. > > > > Permalink Reply by Emil J Milano/Founder 2 minutes ago > > Send Message > > Nor is he at all concerned with hurting the people of Israel. And, we know > where that leads. Welcome to G&C USA Richard, I can see you will be another > asset to an already Blessed by the Lord site. I have been having some issues > with the server so have fallen far behind today but have read some of what > you have posted. > > > > I am constantly in prayer for Godly laborers for His field here and He has > never let us down. I am sure you will soon feel the love among the members > soon. We are a nondenominational site and we tear down the walls of division > and follow the new command of the Lord found in Mk 12: 30,31 > > > > Be Blessed as you Bless. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 9 07:36:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:36:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> Message-ID: Bravo, David! Got to get busy for a couple of days, so I'll miss this interesting discussion. Keep up the good work! You'll never convince Don, but at least you'll give great pleasure to the thoughtful and inquiring. Walt On Apr 8, 2010, at 11:22 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Let's see? > > President Truman - "Now, Therefore, I, Harry S. Truman, President > of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Friday, July 4, > 1952, as a National Day of Prayer, on which all of us, in our > churches, in our homes, and in our hearts, may beseech God to grant > us wisdom to know the course which we should follow, and strength > and patience to pursue that course steadfastly. May we also give > thanks to Him for His constant watchfulness over us in every hour > of national prosperity and national peril." > > President Eisenhower - "On September twenty-second, [1954] we are > therefore observing, with an act of faith, a national day of > prayer. Throughout the United States of America, whatever our > ancestry, whatever our religious affiliation, we shall offer > simultaneously to the Almighty our personal prayers for the > devotion, wisdom and stamina to work unceasingly for a just and > lasting peace for all mankind." > > President Reagan: "Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of > the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, May 7, > 1981, National Day of Prayer. On that day I ask all who believe to > join with me in giving thanks to Almighty God for the blessings He > has bestowed on this land and the protection He affords us as a > people. Let us as a Nation join together before God, fully aware of > the trials that lie ahead and the need, yes, the necessity, for > divine guidance. With unshakeable faith in God and the liberty > which is heritage, we as a free Nation will surely survive and > prosper." > > President Obama - "NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of > the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 2009, as a > National Day of Prayer. I call upon Americans to pray in > thanksgiving for our freedoms and blessings and to ask for God's > continued guidance, grace, and protection for this land that we > love. " > > So what are the "facts"? Our Presidents, including Obama, have > called for a National Day of Prayer. > > Prayer "in our churches, in our homes, in our hearts" > Prayer "whatever our religious affiliation" > Prayer "giving thanks", "guidance" > Prayer "in thanksgiving" and ask for "continued guidance, grace, > and protection for this land" > > So, what is your point? That you want to return to the religious > grandstanding of the previous administration? > > Yes, even Obama made a Proclamation for a National Day of Prayer. > > What about the "facts"? > > Simply, they are distortions intended to cause the weak to panic. > Did it work? > > BTW, the Muslim gathering, like the Million Man March was > independent of the government. > > David > > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Religious or not, this should scare everyone. >> >> And it is true, and documented true. >> >> What do you all think of these facts? >> >> Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 08:23:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:23:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBF466F.000008.03696@DON-B2514E06367> Tell the whole story. The week (date) of prayer was cancelled in 2009. The prayer at the white house by the Muslims was not cancelled. Those are the two salient facts. We can fault national media for leaving out part of the facts, but we cannot follow their example. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 04/09/10 07:36:54 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss Bravo, David! Got to get busy for a couple of days, so I'll miss this interesting discussion. Keep up the good work! You'll never convince Don, but at least you'll give great pleasure to the thoughtful and inquiring. Walt On Apr 8, 2010, at 11:22 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Let's see? > > President Truman - "Now, Therefore, I, Harry S. Truman, President > of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Friday, July 4, > 1952, as a National Day of Prayer, on which all of us, in our > churches, in our homes, and in our hearts, may beseech God to grant > us wisdom to know the course which we should follow, and strength > and patience to pursue that course steadfastly. May we also give > thanks to Him for His constant watchfulness over us in every hour > of national prosperity and national peril." > > President Eisenhower - "On September twenty-second, [1954] we are > therefore observing, with an act of faith, a national day of > prayer. Throughout the United States of America, whatever our > ancestry, whatever our religious affiliation, we shall offer > simultaneously to the Almighty our personal prayers for the > devotion, wisdom and stamina to work unceasingly for a just and > lasting peace for all mankind." > > President Reagan: "Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of > the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, May 7, > 1981, National Day of Prayer. On that day I ask all who believe to > join with me in giving thanks to Almighty God for the blessings He > has bestowed on this land and the protection He affords us as a > people. Let us as a Nation join together before God, fully aware of > the trials that lie ahead and the need, yes, the necessity, for > divine guidance. With unshakeable faith in God and the liberty > which is heritage, we as a free Nation will surely survive and > prosper." > > President Obama - "NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of > the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 2009, as a > National Day of Prayer. I call upon Americans to pray in > thanksgiving for our freedoms and blessings and to ask for God's > continued guidance, grace, and protection for this land that we > love. " > > So what are the "facts"? Our Presidents, including Obama, have > called for a National Day of Prayer. > > Prayer "in our churches, in our homes, in our hearts" > Prayer "whatever our religious affiliation" > Prayer "giving thanks", "guidance" > Prayer "in thanksgiving" and ask for "continued guidance, grace, > and protection for this land" > > So, what is your point? That you want to return to the religious > grandstanding of the previous administration? > > Yes, even Obama made a Proclamation for a National Day of Prayer. > > What about the "facts"? > > Simply, they are distortions intended to cause the weak to panic. > Did it work? > > BTW, the Muslim gathering, like the Million Man March was > independent of the government. > > David > > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Religious or not, this should scare everyone. >> >> And it is true, and documented true. >> >> What do you all think of these facts? >> >> Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/a097861f/attachment.gif From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 08:47:08 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Its a Guy Thing Conference, Fri. 4/23 at Pacific U In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <335482.76508.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Pacific University's Center for Gender Equity announces a full day conference for boys 12-15 where boys can discuss issues of growing up in small group discussions led by trained graduate students. Fri. April 23 (teacher work day), 8:30-3:45, Pacific University, Forest Grove. The It?s a Guy Thing conference was created to help boys explore concerns that may affect learning, which the schools cannot regularly address. Rather than give advice or suggest simple solutions for complex problems, we provide an open, safe environment in which boys can talk with each other openly in facilitated groups. FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT Dr. Martha Rampton Director of the Center for Gender Equity 503 - 352 - 2772 | kles4814 at pacificu.edu! TO REGISTER, GO TO? pacificu.edu/cge Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 08:53:42 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:53:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting Fossil Discovery References: <000901cad7a3$da263aa0$8e72afe0$@com> Message-ID: <4BBF4D83.000014.03696@DON-B2514E06367> Saw that Jeff and it is within my range of interests. I just eat that up, trust, but verify. Thanks Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/8/2010 10:17:00 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting Fossil Discovery http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-fossils-australopithe cus-sediba-missing-link-new-species-human/ Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/00856769/attachment.gif From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 08:57:34 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Faire in the Grove, 4/23 - 4/25/10 Free! In-Reply-To: <08DB2503-BB49-4045-B7B7-C4499BF707B6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <23194.37079.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> MEDIEVAL FAIRE IN THE GROVE Apr 23, 2010 - Apr 25, 2010 McMenamin's Grand Lodge - Forest Grove Family-friendly event presented by the University's Department of History and the Shire of Dragon's Mist branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism The public is invited to attend the 2010 Medieval Faire in the Grove Friday, April 23 through Sunday, April 25 at McMenamin's Grand Lodge in Forest Grove (3505 Pacific Ave.). Admission is free and a wide variety of medieval-era food and crafts will be available for purchase. The annual event, presented by Pacific University's Department of History and The Shire of Dragon's Mist branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism, attracts several thousand visitors annually to the Lodge's front lawn, transformed into a medieval village featuring demonstrations of armored combat, fencing, medieval cooking, craft and book-making, weaving and blacksmithing. "The Medieval Faire in the Grove has truly become a Washington County tradition," event organizer and Pacific history professor Martha Rampton said. "It is a family-friendly opportunity for us to travel back in time and experience life in the Middle Ages and Renaissance." Entertainment throughout the weekend includes singing and other music, dance, magic and a combat tournament where knights, lords and even some ladies will don armor and battle for honor in a variety of martial styles. Presiding over the tournament will be a baron and baroness who will hold court, present awards and recognize event volunteers.???The closing ceremony will feature a Royal Court viewing. For more information, contact Rampton at (503) 352-2772 or rampton at pacificu.edu. Schedule Friday, April 23 - 3 p.m. to Dusk Saturday, April 24 - 10 a.m. to Dusk Sunday, April 25 - 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 9 09:23:24 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:23:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting Fossil Discovery In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:53:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <15796-4BBF547C-3169@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don wrote... I just eat that up, trust, but verify. Don; be-careful that you don't become one yourself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100409/02fb18c3/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 9 10:44:22 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:44:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court Message-ID: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-spin-1.png Type: image/png Size: 1882 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0008.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: spacer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: closebox.png Type: image/png Size: 1910 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0009.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-caption-l.png Type: image/png Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0010.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-caption-r.png Type: image/png Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0011.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-shadow1.png Type: image/png Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0012.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-shadow3.png Type: image/png Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0013.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-shadow6.png Type: image/png Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0014.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoom-shadow8.png Type: image/png Size: 426 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0015.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 67 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0003.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: chew.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 190177 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/6e4378c7/attachment-0001.jpg From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 9 10:49:18 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBF466F.000008.03696@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C 0E5D5@verizon.net> <4BBF466F.000008.03696@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <017501cad80c$ff48d1d0$fdda7570$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Tell the whole story. The week (date) of prayer was > cancelled in 2009. The prayer at the white house by > the Muslims was not cancelled. > > Those are the two salient facts. False. Those are two fallacious fabrications. The National Day of Prayer (not sure how it suddenly turned into a week in your opinion) was not canceled. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/photos/prayerday.asp The prayer on Capitol Hill (not in the white house) by the Muslims was not canceled. It also isn't acknowledged or endorsed by the white house either. It's a private prayer service. http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capitolislam.asp Those are the facts. Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 11:17:27 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:17:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Message-ID: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> His reason for not running again reminds me of something I heard on the Howard Stern show almost twenty years ago. Rick Dees had a late night talk show on ABC and left the show (or was told to leave). Howard commented that his leaving was reasonable because he needed more time to clean out his basement. Whether or not the Tea Party caused him to not run no one will truly know. Adam http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ Tea Party target Stupak won?t seek re-election Congressman did deal over abortion funding to pass health care bill By JOHN FLESHER The Associated Press updated 8:33 a.m. PT, Fri., April 9, 2010 TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, an anti-abortion Democrat targeted for defeat by tea party activists for his crucial role in securing House approval of the health care overhaul, said Friday he would retire from Congress this year. The nine-term congressman told The Associated Press he could have won re-election and insisted he wasn't being chased from the race by the Tea Party Express, which is holding rallies this week in his northern Michigan district calling for his ouster. Instead, Stupak said he was tired after 18 years in office and wanted to spend more time with his family. "The tea party did not run me out," he said in a telephone interview. "If you know me and my personality, I would welcome the challenge." Three little-known hopefuls are seeking the GOP nomination, and Stupak faced a primary challenge from a Democrat who is pro-choice on abortion. Stupak, 58, said he had considered retirement for years but was persuaded to stay in Congress because of the prospect of serving with a Democratic majority and helping win approval of the health care overhaul, which he described as his top legislative priority. "I've fought my whole career for health care and thanks to Barack Obama and my colleagues, we've gotten it done," he said. A political moderate, Stupak is known for an independent streak that sometimes put him at odds with his party's leadership. He voted against the North American Free Trade Agreement and an assault weapons ban in the 1990s, despite appeals from then-President Bill Clinton. During the health care debate, Stupak emerged as spokesman and chief negotiator for Democrats who withheld support from Obama's plan because they feared it would allow public funding of abortions. At one point, Texas Republican Rep. Randy Neugebauer shouted out "baby killer" during a floor speech by Stupak. Just hours before the vote, Stupak reached an agreement with the White House under which President Barack Obama would issue an executive order confirming that the legislation would not allow federal funding of abortion. With that, Stupak and other anti-abortion Democrats voted for the bill, sealing its passage. Since then, Stupak has become a symbol for critics of the overhaul. The Tea Party Express labeled him its No. 2 target for defeat after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. The group kicked off a $250,000 television and radio blitz in Stupak's district Wednesday, ahead of rallies that began Thursday night and were continuing through the weekend. "The surprising announcement that Congressman Bart Stupak is abandoning his campaign for re-election shows the power of the tea party movement," said a statement posted Friday on its Web site. Michigan's 1st District is notoriously difficult turf for anyone trying to unseat the incumbent. Measuring 600 miles wide, it takes in about half the state's land mass ? including the entire Upper Peninsula ? and has no major media market. The largest city, Marquette, where Stupak was planning to officially announce his retirement later Friday, has about 20,000 residents. *Video: An angry nation erupts* Stupak has routinely won re-election by wide margins, defeating former state Rep. Tom Casperson with 65 percent of the vote in 2008, and said he was confident of prevailing again. He acknowledged the criticism he received over the health care overhaul ? including telephone threats to his office ? had taken a toll, but said he had thrived during the debate. What wore him down, he said, was the grind of constant travel across his sprawling district. "When I come home I can't stay home," he said. "I'm there 12 hours and take off. That has gotten hard." Stupak said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer had urged him to seek re-election. Republicans represented his rural, blue-collar district for nearly three decades before he won in 1992, and his departure will create a strong opportunity for the GOP. Still, he said a moderate Democrat would have a good chance. "There are a lot of great Democratic elected officials and activists throughout the entire district. I'm confident we'll have a very strong candidate," said Mark Brewer, chairman of Michigan Democratic Party. Democrat Connie Saltonstall, an ex-teacher and ex-Charlevoix County commissioner, was endorsed last month by the National Organization for Women in her bid to win the 1st District seat. "This retirement presents Republicans with a very promising opportunity heading into the November elections," said Tom Erickson, spokesman for the National Republican Congressional Committee. They're certainly going to have a tough time trying to hold on to this seat." Stupak said he reached his decision this week after talking with his family and was making a quick announcement to give other Democratic hopefuls time to organize and get their names on the primary election ballot. "I feel like I can finally step away," Stupak said. "I can be home more often with my wife. I'm young enough to start a new career. I'm at peace and very comfortable with my decision." Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ MSN Privacy . Legal ? 2010 MSNBC.com From nospam03 at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 11:20:11 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:20:11 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Maybe it was the lack of future support from the DNC. He held things up, they weren't happy. -----Original Message----- From: Adam Mayer Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:17:27 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory His reason for not running again reminds me of something I heard on the Howard Stern show almost twenty years ago. Rick Dees had a late night talk show on ABC and left the show (or was told to leave). Howard commented that his leaving was reasonable because he needed more time to clean out his basement. Whether or not the Tea Party caused him to not run no one will truly know. Adam http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ Tea Party target Stupak won?t seek re-election Congressman did deal over abortion funding to pass health care bill By JOHN FLESHER The Associated Press updated 8:33 a.m. PT, Fri., April 9, 2010 TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, an anti-abortion Democrat targeted for defeat by tea party activists for his crucial role in securing House approval of the health care overhaul, said Friday he would retire from Congress this year. The nine-term congressman told The Associated Press he could have won re-election and insisted he wasn't being chased from the race by the Tea Party Express, which is holding rallies this week in his northern Michigan district calling for his ouster. Instead, Stupak said he was tired after 18 years in office and wanted to spend more time with his family. "The tea party did not run me out," he said in a telephone interview. "If you know me and my personality, I would welcome the challenge." Three little-known hopefuls are seeking the GOP nomination, and Stupak faced a primary challenge from a Democrat who is pro-choice on abortion. Stupak, 58, said he had considered retirement for years but was persuaded to stay in Congress because of the prospect of serving with a Democratic majority and helping win approval of the health care overhaul, which he described as his top legislative priority. "I've fought my whole career for health care and thanks to Barack Obama and my colleagues, we've gotten it done," he said. A political moderate, Stupak is known for an independent streak that sometimes put him at odds with his party's leadership. He voted against the North American Free Trade Agreement and an assault weapons ban in the 1990s, despite appeals from then-President Bill Clinton. During the health care debate, Stupak emerged as spokesman and chief negotiator for Democrats who withheld support from Obama's plan because they feared it would allow public funding of abortions. At one point, Texas Republican Rep. Randy Neugebauer shouted out "baby killer" during a floor speech by Stupak. Just hours before the vote, Stupak reached an agreement with the White House under which President Barack Obama would issue an executive order confirming that the legislation would not allow federal funding of abortion. With that, Stupak and other anti-abortion Democrats voted for the bill, sealing its passage. Since then, Stupak has become a symbol for critics of the overhaul. The Tea Party Express labeled him its No. 2 target for defeat after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. The group kicked off a $250,000 television and radio blitz in Stupak's district Wednesday, ahead of rallies that began Thursday night and were continuing through the weekend. "The surprising announcement that Congressman Bart Stupak is abandoning his campaign for re-election shows the power of the tea party movement," said a statement posted Friday on its Web site. Michigan's 1st District is notoriously difficult turf for anyone trying to unseat the incumbent. Measuring 600 miles wide, it takes in about half the state's land mass ? including the entire Upper Peninsula ? and has no major media market. The largest city, Marquette, where Stupak was planning to officially announce his retirement later Friday, has about 20,000 residents. *Video: An angry nation erupts* Stupak has routinely won re-election by wide margins, defeating former state Rep. Tom Casperson with 65 percent of the vote in 2008, and said he was confident of prevailing again. He acknowledged the criticism he received over the health care overhaul ? including telephone threats to his office ? had taken a toll, but said he had thrived during the debate. What wore him down, he said, was the grind of constant travel across his sprawling district. "When I come home I can't stay home," he said. "I'm there 12 hours and take off. That has gotten hard." Stupak said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer had urged him to seek re-election. Republicans represented his rural, blue-collar district for nearly three decades before he won in 1992, and his departure will create a strong opportunity for the GOP. Still, he said a moderate Democrat would have a good chance. "There are a lot of great Democratic elected officials and activists throughout the entire district. I'm confident we'll have a very strong candidate," said Mark Brewer, chairman of Michigan Democratic Party. Democrat Connie Saltonstall, an ex-teacher and ex-Charlevoix County commissioner, was endorsed last month by the National Organization for Women in her bid to win the 1st District seat. "This retirement presents Republicans with a very promising opportunity heading into the November elections," said Tom Erickson, spokesman for the National Republican Congressional Committee. They're certainly going to have a tough time trying to hold on to this seat." Stupak said he reached his decision this week after talking with his family and was making a quick announcement to give other Democratic hopefuls time to organize and get their names on the primary election ballot. "I feel like I can finally step away," Stupak said. "I can be home more often with my wife. I'm young enough to start a new career. I'm at peace and very comfortable with my decision." Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ MSN Privacy . Legal ? 2010 MSNBC.com _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 11:25:28 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Correction on date for Boys Conference! 4/30/10 Message-ID: <20389.69526.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Oops, sorry the date for this conference is April 30 - and there's more information below! ? CGE announces a full day conference for boys 12-15 where boys can discuss issues of growing up in small group discussions led by trained graduate students.? ? ?Fri. APRIL 30 (teacher work day), 8:30-3:45, Pacific University, Forest Grove. The It?s a Guy Thing conference was created to help boys explore concerns that may affect learning, which the schools cannot regularly address. Rather than give advice or suggest simple solutions for complex problems, we provide an open, safe environment in which boys can talk with each other openly in facilitated groups. WHAT PARENTS CAN EXPECT: 1. Model a possible vision for a future in college by connecting your child with male college students who have taken the same journey your sons are on. 2. Help boys develop strategies to deal with troubling issues at school, to keep boys strong and focused on learning. 3. Provide a structure for future mentoring and follow up to the work done at the conference; make sure the boys know that there is a support network for them in the community working to help them fulfill their potential. The conference will be staffed by Pacific University faculty, graduate students and Ryan Aiello, Director of Residence Life. WHAT BOYS CAN EXPECT: Opening Session | A panel of Pacific University students will talk about how they became college students, answer your questions about college, and tell you what you need to be doing now to start on your pathway to college. Small Group Discussions | Guided by trained, male graduate students from Pacific?s School of Professional Psychology and College of Education, small groups will discuss issues of concern to you and other boys your age. Topics we have explored in the past include relating to parents, teasing, sexual harassment and hormones. FREE LUNCH ON CAMPUS! Activities | Ultimate Frisbee, XBOX and Self Defense Closing Session | Your small groups will gather to share ideas and develop strategies for coping with the challenges facing boys today. Refreshments served. Be sure to pick up your free t-shirt! Also PARENTS? MEETING 8:30 - 9:00 AM Old College Hall on College Way FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT Dr. Martha Rampton Director of the Center for Gender Equity 503 - 352 - 2772 | kles4814 at pacificu.edu! TO REGISTER, GO TO? pacificu.edu/cge Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 11:59:13 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:59:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> I think the reality is that he had a bitter taste in his mouth from what happened this session and was facing a challenge in the primary and then again in November he didn't think he could win. And you might be right about the DNC not supporting him, but I doubt that. If he won the primary they wouldn't risk losing the seat to a Republican, he would get their support. Especially if it turned into a close battle. The Tea Party will take credit for it, but it wasn't them entirely. A number of Congressmen are opting to not run, like Representative Baird across the river in Vancouver. The Republicans won't win all of them, but it's much easier to win a seat where the incumbent is not running. Adam Steve wrote: > Maybe it was the lack of future support from the DNC. He held things up, they weren't happy. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Mayer > Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:17:27 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, > Tea Party claims victory > > His reason for not running again reminds me of something I heard on the > Howard Stern show almost twenty years ago. Rick Dees had a late night > talk show on ABC and left the show (or was told to leave). Howard > commented that his leaving was reasonable because he needed more time to > clean out his basement. > > Whether or not the Tea Party caused him to not run no one will truly know. > > Adam > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ > > Tea Party target Stupak won?t seek re-election > Congressman did deal over abortion funding to pass health care bill > By JOHN FLESHER > The Associated Press > updated 8:33 a.m. PT, Fri., April 9, 2010 > > TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, an anti-abortion Democrat > targeted for defeat by tea party activists for his crucial role in > securing House approval of the health care overhaul, said Friday he > would retire from Congress this year. > > The nine-term congressman told The Associated Press he could have won > re-election and insisted he wasn't being chased from the race by the Tea > Party Express, which is holding rallies this week in his northern > Michigan district calling for his ouster. Instead, Stupak said he was > tired after 18 years in office and wanted to spend more time with his > family. > > "The tea party did not run me out," he said in a telephone interview. > "If you know me and my personality, I would welcome the challenge." > > Three little-known hopefuls are seeking the GOP nomination, and Stupak > faced a primary challenge from a Democrat who is pro-choice on abortion. > > Stupak, 58, said he had considered retirement for years but was > persuaded to stay in Congress because of the prospect of serving with a > Democratic majority and helping win approval of the health care > overhaul, which he described as his top legislative priority. > > "I've fought my whole career for health care and thanks to Barack Obama > and my colleagues, we've gotten it done," he said. > > A political moderate, Stupak is known for an independent streak that > sometimes put him at odds with his party's leadership. He voted against > the North American Free Trade Agreement and an assault weapons ban in > the 1990s, despite appeals from then-President Bill Clinton. > > During the health care debate, Stupak emerged as spokesman and chief > negotiator for Democrats who withheld support from Obama's plan because > they feared it would allow public funding of abortions. > > At one point, Texas Republican Rep. Randy Neugebauer shouted out "baby > killer" during a floor speech by Stupak. > > Just hours before the vote, Stupak reached an agreement with the White > House under which President Barack Obama would issue an executive order > confirming that the legislation would not allow federal funding of > abortion. With that, Stupak and other anti-abortion Democrats voted for > the bill, sealing its passage. > > Since then, Stupak has become a symbol for critics of the overhaul. The > Tea Party Express labeled him its No. 2 target for defeat after Senate > Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. > > The group kicked off a $250,000 television and radio blitz in Stupak's > district Wednesday, ahead of rallies that began Thursday night and were > continuing through the weekend. > > "The surprising announcement that Congressman Bart Stupak is abandoning > his campaign for re-election shows the power of the tea party movement," > said a statement posted Friday on its Web site. > > Michigan's 1st District is notoriously difficult turf for anyone trying > to unseat the incumbent. Measuring 600 miles wide, it takes in about > half the state's land mass ? including the entire Upper Peninsula ? and > has no major media market. The largest city, Marquette, where Stupak was > planning to officially announce his retirement later Friday, has about > 20,000 residents. > > > *Video: An angry nation erupts* > > > > Stupak has routinely won re-election by wide margins, defeating former > state Rep. Tom Casperson with 65 percent of the vote in 2008, and said > he was confident of prevailing again. > > He acknowledged the criticism he received over the health care overhaul > ? including telephone threats to his office ? had taken a toll, but said > he had thrived during the debate. What wore him down, he said, was the > grind of constant travel across his sprawling district. > > "When I come home I can't stay home," he said. "I'm there 12 hours and > take off. That has gotten hard." > > Stupak said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer > had urged him to seek re-election. Republicans represented his rural, > blue-collar district for nearly three decades before he won in 1992, and > his departure will create a strong opportunity for the GOP. > > Still, he said a moderate Democrat would have a good chance. > > "There are a lot of great Democratic elected officials and activists > throughout the entire district. I'm confident we'll have a very strong > candidate," said Mark Brewer, chairman of Michigan Democratic Party. > > Democrat Connie Saltonstall, an ex-teacher and ex-Charlevoix County > commissioner, was endorsed last month by the National Organization for > Women in her bid to win the 1st District seat. > > "This retirement presents Republicans with a very promising opportunity > heading into the November elections," said Tom Erickson, spokesman for > the National Republican Congressional Committee. They're certainly going > to have a tough time trying to hold on to this seat." > > Stupak said he reached his decision this week after talking with his > family and was making a quick announcement to give other Democratic > hopefuls time to organize and get their names on the primary election > ballot. > > "I feel like I can finally step away," Stupak said. "I can be home more > often with my wife. I'm young enough to start a new career. I'm at peace > and very comfortable with my decision." > > Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ > > > MSN Privacy . Legal > > ? 2010 MSNBC.com > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 12:06:23 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:06:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: About half way down the original post is this comment: > I guess it > > Doesn't matter if "Christians" > > Are offended by this event - > > We obviously > > Don't count as "anyone" > > Anymore. Are Christians offended when other religions gather and pray? Katie On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:01 PM, donkelly wrote: > Religious or not, this should scare everyone. > > > > And it is true, and documented true. > > > > What do you all think of these facts? > > > > Can anyone interpret the facts in more than one way? > > > > Don > > > > Following the statements of fact, there are some personal opinions of > Christians. Take those as you will, but please pay critical > attention to > what Obama is doing to America. > > > > > > > > Posted by Emil J Milano/Founder on April 9, 2010 at 12:16am in THE > UPPER > ROOM > > Back to THE UPPER ROOM Discussions > > > > This is chilling > > > > In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a > "National Day of > Prayer." > > > > In 1988, > > President Reagan designated the > > First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of > > Prayer. > > > > In June 2007, > > (then) Presidential > > Candidate Barack Obama declared that the > > USA > > Was no longer a > > Christian nation. > > > > This year > > President Obama, canceled the > > 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White > > House under the rouse > > Of "not wanting to offend anyone" > > > > On September 25, > > 2009 from 4 am until 7 > > pm, a National Day of Prayer for the Muslim religion was > > Held on Capitol Hill, > > Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims that > > Day in DC. > > > > I guess it > > Doesn't matter if "Christians" > > Are offended by this event - > > We obviously > > Don't count as "anyone" > > Anymore. > > > > The direction > > This country is headed > > Should strike fear in the heart of every Christian. > > Especially knowing that the > > Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be > > Converted they should be > > Annihilated > > > > This is not a > > Rumor - Go to the website > > To confirm this info: > > ( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ ) > > > > > > Pay particular > > Attention to the very > > Bottom of the page: > > "OUR TIME HAS > > COME" > > > > > > I hope that this > > Information will stir your spirit. > > > > The words of 2 > > Chronicles 7:14 > > > > "If my people, > > Who are called by my > > Name, > > Will humble themselves > > And pray, > > > > And seek my face, and > > Turn from their > > Wicked ways, > > Then will I hear from > > Heaven > > > > And will forgive their > > Sin and will heal > > Their land." > > > > We must pray for > > Our nation, our communities, > > > > Our families, and > > Especially our children. > > > > > > They are the ones > > That are going to suffer the most > > > > If we don't PRAY! > > > > > > May God have Mercy... > > > > IN GOD WE TRUST. > > > > > > Replies to This Discussion > > > > Permalink Reply by Earline Clark 17 minutes ago > > Emil, not only did he allow the Muslims their prayer in OUR White > House but > there are pictures of obama taking off his own shoes to bow and > pray to > their heithen god. And he had the audacity to deny us our National > Prayer > Day. We should pray for this demon infested man I guess, it is the > Christian > thing to do. But how do I ask My God to have mercy on his soul, to > keep him > from harm after the way he has done Him? > > > > GINGRICH: Obama 'most radical president ever'... > > LIMBAUGH: Obama 'inflicting untold damage on this great country'... > > PALIN: Obama's Nuke Stance Like Kid Who Says 'Punch Me in Face'... > > LIZ CHENEY: Obama Putting America on 'Path to Decline'... > > SAVAGE: 'Obama The Destroyer'... > > NO-GO: NETANYAHU FEARS ISLAMIC AMBUSH > > > > I try to listen to Rush everyday. He is one of my favorites. Today > Rush said > concerning Iran and sanctions that Obama does not want to hurt the > Iranian > people with tough sanctions, but Obama has no problem hurting us > with his > policies. > > > > Permalink Reply by Emil J Milano/Founder 2 minutes ago > > Send Message > > Nor is he at all concerned with hurting the people of Israel. And, > we know > where that leads. Welcome to G&C USA Richard, I can see you will be > another > asset to an already Blessed by the Lord site. I have been having > some issues > with the server so have fallen far behind today but have read some > of what > you have posted. > > > > I am constantly in prayer for Godly laborers for His field here and > He has > never let us down. I am sure you will soon feel the love among the > members > soon. We are a nondenominational site and we tear down the walls of > division > and follow the new command of the Lord found in Mk 12: 30,31 > > > > Be Blessed as you Bless. > > > ___________________________ > ____________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 12:12:34 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:12:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. Katie On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek > appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. > > bob "I don't go that high" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 > > Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, > Studies Find > > Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT > By Edward A. Adams > > > > Pat K. Chew. > Jensen Larson Photography > > A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the > outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and > gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, > according to two recent studies. > > The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the > Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial > Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday afternoon. > > In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that > plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling > the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of > the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was > white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. > > The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of > Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper > School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of > all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits > between 1981 and 2003. > > A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases > involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in > violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The > finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a > female judge was on the appellate panel. > > University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who > co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule > of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which > side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their > decisions, she said. > > But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to > interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. > > Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered > intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the > judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge > was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political > affiliation makes a difference." > > Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern > District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has > crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of > judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. > > "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. > > The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years > ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope > that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would > more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who > hasn?t lived that life.? > > The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina > judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it > appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a > white male jurist hearing the same evidence. > > Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. > > > l.png> shadow6.png> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 12:21:08 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:21:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. His retirement now, before the general election, may mean something else? A new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, but would they next year? And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ Adam Katie Allnutt wrote: > It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to > maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. > > Katie > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > > >> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >> >> bob "I don't go that high" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >> >> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >> Studies Find >> >> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >> By Edward A. Adams >> >> >> >> Pat K. Chew. >> Jensen Larson Photography >> >> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >> according to two recent studies. >> >> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial >> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday afternoon. >> >> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling >> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of >> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was >> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. >> >> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >> between 1981 and 2003. >> >> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in >> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >> female judge was on the appellate panel. >> >> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which >> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >> decisions, she said. >> >> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >> >> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >> affiliation makes a difference." >> >> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >> >> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >> >> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would >> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who >> hasn?t lived that life.? >> >> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >> >> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >> >> >> > l.png>> shadow6.png> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 9 12:52:28 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:52:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01aa01cad81e$317a7d50$946f77f0$@com> > From: Katie Allnutt > > About half way down the original post is this comment: > > > I guess it Doesn't matter if "Christians" Are offended > > by this event - We obviously Don't count as "anyone" > > Anymore. > > Are Christians offended when other religions gather and pray? Are Christians offended when the irreligious gather and don't pray? ;) From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 13:18:01 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:18:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is highly likely that what ever judge Obama nominates the party of "hell no" will try to block them. This is regardless of whether it is a liberal, moderate or even a conservative. The game plan for the republican party is to be disruptive and contrarian to make Obama look bad no matter what. I hardly believe that a 90 year old man who has been hinting that he will retire soon chose the timing based on the election cycle. It is much more likely that he chose the timing based on the court's calendar. Justices tend to be more logical than political (at least the ones who aren't activists like Alito and Roberts and Scalia). So a summer retirement between session is much more likely the reason than in the middle of a session which merely coincidentally falls after the elections. Stevens has been a moderate for a long time and he didn't become 'liberal' until the rest of the court took a sharp turn toward corporate friendly conservatism under Bush. Remember Stevens was appointed by a Republican even it is was the old fashioned reasonable kind. Katie On Apr 9, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. > His > retirement now, before the general election, may mean something > else? A > new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, but > would they next year? > > And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ > > Adam > > Katie Allnutt wrote: >> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to >> maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. >> >> Katie >> >> On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >> >>> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >>> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >>> >>> bob "I don't go that high" browning >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >>> >>> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >>> Studies Find >>> >>> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >>> By Edward A. Adams >>> >>> >>> >>> Pat K. Chew. >>> Jensen Larson Photography >>> >>> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >>> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >>> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >>> according to two recent studies. >>> >>> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >>> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial >>> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday >>> afternoon. >>> >>> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >>> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling >>> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of >>> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was >>> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. >>> >>> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >>> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >>> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >>> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >>> between 1981 and 2003. >>> >>> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >>> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in >>> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >>> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >>> female judge was on the appellate panel. >>> >>> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >>> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >>> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which >>> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >>> decisions, she said. >>> >>> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >>> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >>> >>> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >>> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >>> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >>> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >>> affiliation makes a difference." >>> >>> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >>> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >>> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >>> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >>> >>> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >>> >>> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >>> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >>> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would >>> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who >>> hasn?t lived that life.? >>> >>> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >>> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >>> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >>> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >>> >>> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> >> l.png>>> shadow6.png> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 9 13:30:27 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:30:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Guess who's coming to dinner . . . . . . Message-ID: <4BBF8E63.1070108@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100409/dac4749f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3861 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/dac4749f/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: q.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/dac4749f/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2010GA6.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10049 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/dac4749f/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: log; tx=idgt-79648613_1270844578; it=0; vt=0; ic=0; atf=1; pv=1; fv=1;seq=2;et=L;ord=203581;uid=11807ff29d05680 Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/dac4749f/attachment-0002.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 13:37:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:37:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More thoughts to discuss In-Reply-To: <4BBF466F.000008.03696@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBB733D.1020107@jurislex.com> <1970473675-1270585775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1415945833-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <01cf01cad5cb$04e256a0$0ea703e0$@com> <4BBBA26E.00003C.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <89E188A7-DE25-4642-AFC3-5FD946883169@verizon.net> <4BBC1487.00003F.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBC1D22.000059.03736@DON-B2514E06367> <939B18E9-B20D-4530-9857-6542DEC75164@verizon.net> <4BBCD236.000012.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBCDED6.00001D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <411CAE4F-6033-4CC5-96D4-BD4A06F65CB1@teleport.com> <4BBCFD5D.1050200@jurislex.com> <4BBD0D3F.00004D.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <03c301cad6a6$06ef1f10$14cd5d30$@com> <4BBD541D.000074.02532@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE162C.5070700@jurislex.com> <4BBE24BE.00001A.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBE48B6.2000205@jurislex.com> <4BBE52C9.00003F.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <4BBEB482.000016.04048@DON-B2514E06367> <55CD765E-78EA-40CE-A5EF-299285C0E5D5@verizon.net> <4BBF466F.000008.03696@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7A29A535-8903-46BD-A49C-E9ED632637F1@verizon.net> On Apr 9, 2010, at 8:23 AM, donkelly wrote: > Tell the whole story. The week (date) of prayer was cancelled in 2009. The prayer at the white house by the Muslims was not cancelled. > > Those are the two salient facts. False "facts". The National Day of Prayer isn't a Presidential Prayer Breakfast in the White House, it is a public proclamation inviting Americans to pray. Second, the White House is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The Muslim Day of Prayer was at the Capital half a mile or mile away. > We can fault national media for leaving out part of the facts, but we cannot follow their example. > > Don Fact: how should the nation pray? Should we have big productions at the White House or pray privately in our churches, homes and hearts? Matthew 6:5-7. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. David From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 13:48:59 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:48:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> Katie Allnutt wrote: > It is highly likely that what ever judge Obama nominates the party of > "hell no" will try to block them. > This is regardless of whether it is a liberal, moderate or even a > conservative. > The game plan for the republican party is to be disruptive and > contrarian to make Obama look bad no matter what. > No different than the Democrat party when the Republicans were in control (Bork 1987). It's to be expected, the majority party will always face resistance from the minority party. > I hardly believe that a 90 year old man who has been hinting that he > will retire soon chose the timing based on the election cycle. It is > much more likely that he chose the timing based on the court's > calendar. Justices tend to be more logical than political (at least > the ones who aren't activists like Alito and Roberts and Scalia). So > a summer retirement between session is much more likely the reason > than in the middle of a session which merely coincidentally falls > after the elections. > Maybe Justice Stevens needed more time to clean out his basement too. ;-) Seriously though, I don't think the decision was fully his. I think pressure was put on Stevens to announce his retirement now and not wait until next year or later. That was what I was suggesting before. > Stevens has been a moderate for a long time and he didn't become > 'liberal' until the rest of the court took a sharp turn toward > corporate friendly conservatism under Bush. Remember Stevens was > appointed by a Republican even it is was the old fashioned reasonable > kind. > > Katie > Eisenhower was quoted by saying the only two mistakes he ever made were sitting on the supreme court. A number of times appointing a a justice doesn't always mean that they will follow their ideology that they present when they are appointed. Justice Souter was a recent example of this. Adam > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. >> His >> retirement now, before the general election, may mean something >> else? A >> new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, but >> would they next year? >> >> And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ >> >> Adam >> >> Katie Allnutt wrote: >> >>> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to >>> maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >>>> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >>>> >>>> bob "I don't go that high" browning >>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >>>> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >>>> >>>> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >>>> Studies Find >>>> >>>> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >>>> By Edward A. Adams >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pat K. Chew. >>>> Jensen Larson Photography >>>> >>>> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >>>> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >>>> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >>>> according to two recent studies. >>>> >>>> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >>>> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial >>>> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday >>>> afternoon. >>>> >>>> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >>>> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling >>>> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of >>>> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was >>>> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. >>>> >>>> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >>>> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >>>> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >>>> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >>>> between 1981 and 2003. >>>> >>>> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >>>> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in >>>> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >>>> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >>>> female judge was on the appellate panel. >>>> >>>> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >>>> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >>>> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which >>>> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >>>> decisions, she said. >>>> >>>> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >>>> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >>>> >>>> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >>>> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >>>> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >>>> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >>>> affiliation makes a difference." >>>> >>>> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >>>> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >>>> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >>>> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >>>> >>>> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >>>> >>>> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >>>> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >>>> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would >>>> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who >>>> hasn?t lived that life.? >>>> >>>> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >>>> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >>>> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >>>> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >>>> >>>> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> l.png>>>> shadow6.png> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 13:55:11 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:55:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, of course the minority will always try to resist the majority. The only difference today is in scope. The Republicans will not even support republican ideas if they can make noise to try to block anything that Obama tries to do. Why do they fillibuster senate votes and then when the vote happens the bill passes 97-1? The plan is to postpone any and all progress even on things that they support. Katie On Apr 9, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > Katie Allnutt wrote: >> It is highly likely that what ever judge Obama nominates the party of >> "hell no" will try to block them. >> This is regardless of whether it is a liberal, moderate or even a >> conservative. >> The game plan for the republican party is to be disruptive and >> contrarian to make Obama look bad no matter what. >> > No different than the Democrat party when the Republicans were in > control (Bork 1987). It's to be expected, the majority party will > always face resistance from the minority party. > >> I hardly believe that a 90 year old man who has been hinting that he >> will retire soon chose the timing based on the election cycle. It is >> much more likely that he chose the timing based on the court's >> calendar. Justices tend to be more logical than political (at least >> the ones who aren't activists like Alito and Roberts and Scalia). So >> a summer retirement between session is much more likely the reason >> than in the middle of a session which merely coincidentally falls >> after the elections. >> > Maybe Justice Stevens needed more time to clean out his basement > too. ;-) > > Seriously though, I don't think the decision was fully his. I think > pressure was put on Stevens to announce his retirement now and not > wait > until next year or later. That was what I was suggesting before. > >> Stevens has been a moderate for a long time and he didn't become >> 'liberal' until the rest of the court took a sharp turn toward >> corporate friendly conservatism under Bush. Remember Stevens was >> appointed by a Republican even it is was the old fashioned reasonable >> kind. >> >> Katie >> > Eisenhower was quoted by saying the only two mistakes he ever made > were > sitting on the supreme court. A number of times appointing a a > justice > doesn't always mean that they will follow their ideology that they > present when they are appointed. Justice Souter was a recent > example of > this. > > Adam > >> >> On Apr 9, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. >>> His >>> retirement now, before the general election, may mean something >>> else? A >>> new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, >>> but >>> would they next year? >>> >>> And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>> >>>> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they >>>> try to >>>> maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >>>>> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >>>>> >>>>> bob "I don't go that high" browning >>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> >>>>> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >>>>> >>>>> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >>>>> Studies Find >>>>> >>>>> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >>>>> By Edward A. Adams >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pat K. Chew. >>>>> Jensen Larson Photography >>>>> >>>>> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >>>>> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >>>>> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >>>>> according to two recent studies. >>>>> >>>>> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >>>>> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA >>>>> Judicial >>>>> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday >>>>> afternoon. >>>>> >>>>> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >>>>> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge >>>>> handling >>>>> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 >>>>> percent of >>>>> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge >>>>> was >>>>> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian >>>>> American. >>>>> >>>>> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >>>>> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >>>>> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >>>>> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >>>>> between 1981 and 2003. >>>>> >>>>> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >>>>> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex >>>>> discrimination in >>>>> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >>>>> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >>>>> female judge was on the appellate panel. >>>>> >>>>> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >>>>> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >>>>> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter >>>>> which >>>>> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >>>>> decisions, she said. >>>>> >>>>> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >>>>> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >>>>> >>>>> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >>>>> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >>>>> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >>>>> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >>>>> affiliation makes a difference." >>>>> >>>>> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >>>>> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >>>>> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >>>>> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >>>>> >>>>> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >>>>> >>>>> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >>>>> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >>>>> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences >>>>> would >>>>> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male >>>>> who >>>>> hasn?t lived that life.? >>>>> >>>>> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >>>>> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >>>>> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >>>>> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >>>>> >>>>> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> l.png>>>>> shadow3.png>>>>> shadow6.png> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 13:58:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:58:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> Message-ID: As a practical matter, I would generally prefer that the judge follows the law and facts, rather than following their ideology. David On Apr 9, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > ... A number of times appointing a a justice doesn't always mean that they will follow their ideology that they present when they are appointed. Justice Souter was a recent example of this. > > Adam From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 9 14:20:59 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:20:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Change you can believe in . . . . Message-ID: <4BBF9A3B.4050306@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100409/1cdcfed2/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 14:31:19 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> <4BBF92BB.20203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBF9CA7.7030905@gmail.com> I agree. I was pointing out that sometimes when a justice is appointed they appear more liberal (or conservative) and then after a number of years they are now considered conservative (or liberal). Adam David Morelli wrote: > As a practical matter, I would generally prefer that the judge follows the law and facts, rather than following their ideology. > > David > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> ... A number of times appointing a a justice doesn't always mean that they will follow their ideology that they present when they are appointed. Justice Souter was a recent example of this. >> >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 9 15:23:16 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:23:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A really sad tale of self-deception and grasping at power . . . . Message-ID: <4BBFA8D4.5060205@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100409/8d321297/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/8d321297/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/8d321297/attachment.png From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 20:49:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:49:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Change you can believe in . . . . References: <4BBF9A3B.4050306@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBFF564.00000B.02392@DON-B2514E06367> 1. It appears that comparisons are taken from a very small base. Wouldn't it be more believable if based on the records of the past five or ten presidents? Isn't Bush bashing clearly indicated here. 2. Nominations and appointments seem out of whack with the racial makeup of America. The way the report is coming down clearly suggests racial prejudice. Taken together, based on prejudices clearly disclosed by the numbers, the best answer to changes we can believe in, "is not." Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/9/2010 2:21:20 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Change you can believe in . . . . Take a look at this report to see if you agree that a breath of change you can believe in is not sweeping over the land. http://tinyurl.com/ycnobmq bob "looks like a good start" browning -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/d37eb869/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 21:32:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:32:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BBFFF43.000025.02392@DON-B2514E06367> It seems logical for all parties to delay socialists actions of the president as long as possible so he has less time to do America more serious damage. What else could be a motive to delay? Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/9/2010 1:18:28 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court It is highly likely that what ever judge Obama nominates the party of "hell no" will try to block them. This is regardless of whether it is a liberal, moderate or even a conservative. The game plan for the republican party is to be disruptive and contrarian to make Obama look bad no matter what. I hardly believe that a 90 year old man who has been hinting that he will retire soon chose the timing based on the election cycle. It is much more likely that he chose the timing based on the court's calendar. Justices tend to be more logical than political (at least the ones who aren't activists like Alito and Roberts and Scalia). So a summer retirement between session is much more likely the reason than in the middle of a session which merely coincidentally falls after the elections. Stevens has been a moderate for a long time and he didn't become 'liberal' until the rest of the court took a sharp turn toward corporate friendly conservatism under Bush. Remember Stevens was appointed by a Republican even it is was the old fashioned reasonable kind. Katie On Apr 9, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. > His > retirement now, before the general election, may mean something > else? A > new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, but > would they next year? > > And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ > > Adam > > Katie Allnutt wrote: >> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to >> maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. >> >> Katie >> >> On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >> >>> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >>> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >>> >>> bob "I don't go that high" browning >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >>> >>> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >>> Studies Find >>> >>> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >>> By Edward A. Adams >>> >>> >>> >>> Pat K. Chew. >>> Jensen Larson Photography >>> >>> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >>> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >>> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >>> according to two recent studies. >>> >>> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >>> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial >>> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday >>> afternoon. >>> >>> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >>> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling >>> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of >>> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was >>> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. >>> >>> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >>> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >>> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >>> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >>> between 1981 and 2003. >>> >>> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >>> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in >>> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >>> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >>> female judge was on the appellate panel. >>> >>> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >>> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >>> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which >>> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >>> decisions, she said. >>> >>> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >>> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >>> >>> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >>> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >>> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >>> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >>> affiliation makes a difference." >>> >>> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >>> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >>> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >>> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >>> >>> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >>> >>> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >>> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >>> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would >>> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who >>> hasn?t lived that life.? >>> >>> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >>> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >>> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >>> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >>> >>> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> >> l.png>>> shadow6.png> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/1d596184/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 20:49:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:49:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Change you can believe in . . . . References: <4BBF9A3B.4050306@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BBFF565.00000E.02392@DON-B2514E06367> -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/9/2010 2:21:20 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Change you can believe in . . . . Take a look at this report to see if you agree that a breath of change you can believe in is not sweeping over the land. http://tinyurl.com/ycnobmq bob "looks like a good start" browning -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/2f1b096a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 21:38:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:38:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC000DA.00002B.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Yes, a second chance to put another radical judge online. Is that good, or bad, or moderate? -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/9/2010 12:13:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they try to maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. Katie On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek > appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. > > bob "I don't go that high" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 > > Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, > Studies Find > > Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT > By Edward A. Adams > > > > Pat K. Chew. > Jensen Larson Photography > > A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the > outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and > gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, > according to two recent studies. > > The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the > Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial > Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday afternoon. > > In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that > plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling > the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of > the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was > white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian American. > > The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of > Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper > School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of > all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits > between 1981 and 2003. > > A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases > involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in > violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The > finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a > female judge was on the appellate panel. > > University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who > co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule > of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which > side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their > decisions, she said. > > But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to > interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. > > Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered > intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the > judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge > was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political > affiliation makes a difference." > > Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern > District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has > crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of > judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. > > "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. > > The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years > ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope > that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would > more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who > hasn?t lived that life.? > > The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina > judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it > appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a > white male jurist hearing the same evidence. > > Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. > > > l.png> shadow6.png> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/56f6bf59/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 21:45:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:45:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a little to do with it. When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/her state, is dead meat anyway. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory I think the reality is that he had a bitter taste in his mouth from what happened this session and was facing a challenge in the primary and then again in November he didn't think he could win. And you might be right about the DNC not supporting him, but I doubt that. If he won the primary they wouldn't risk losing the seat to a Republican, he would get their support. Especially if it turned into a close battle. The Tea Party will take credit for it, but it wasn't them entirely. A number of Congressmen are opting to not run, like Representative Baird across the river in Vancouver. The Republicans won't win all of them, but it's much easier to win a seat where the incumbent is not running. Adam Steve wrote: > Maybe it was the lack of future support from the DNC. He held things up, they weren't happy. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Mayer > Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:17:27 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, > Tea Party claims victory > > His reason for not running again reminds me of something I heard on the > Howard Stern show almost twenty years ago. Rick Dees had a late night > talk show on ABC and left the show (or was told to leave). Howard > commented that his leaving was reasonable because he needed more time to > clean out his basement. > > Whether or not the Tea Party caused him to not run no one will truly know. > > Adam > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ > > Tea Party target Stupak won?t seek re-election > Congressman did deal over abortion funding to pass health care bill > By JOHN FLESHER > The Associated Press > updated 8:33 a.m. PT, Fri., April 9, 2010 > > TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, an anti-abortion Democrat > targeted for defeat by tea party activists for his crucial role in > securing House approval of the health care overhaul, said Friday he > would retire from Congress this year. > > The nine-term congressman told The Associated Press he could have won > re-election and insisted he wasn't being chased from the race by the Tea > Party Express, which is holding rallies this week in his northern > Michigan district calling for his ouster. Instead, Stupak said he was > tired after 18 years in office and wanted to spend more time with his > family. > > "The tea party did not run me out," he said in a telephone interview. > "If you know me and my personality, I would welcome the challenge." > > Three little-known hopefuls are seeking the GOP nomination, and Stupak > faced a primary challenge from a Democrat who is pro-choice on abortion. > > Stupak, 58, said he had considered retirement for years but was > persuaded to stay in Congress because of the prospect of serving with a > Democratic majority and helping win approval of the health care > overhaul, which he described as his top legislative priority. > > "I've fought my whole career for health care and thanks to Barack Obama > and my colleagues, we've gotten it done," he said. > > A political moderate, Stupak is known for an independent streak that > sometimes put him at odds with his party's leadership. He voted against > the North American Free Trade Agreement and an assault weapons ban in > the 1990s, despite appeals from then-President Bill Clinton. > > During the health care debate, Stupak emerged as spokesman and chief > negotiator for Democrats who withheld support from Obama's plan because > they feared it would allow public funding of abortions. > > At one point, Texas Republican Rep. Randy Neugebauer shouted out "baby > killer" during a floor speech by Stupak. > > Just hours before the vote, Stupak reached an agreement with the White > House under which President Barack Obama would issue an executive order > confirming that the legislation would not allow federal funding of > abortion. With that, Stupak and other anti-abortion Democrats voted for > the bill, sealing its passage. > > Since then, Stupak has become a symbol for critics of the overhaul. The > Tea Party Express labeled him its No. 2 target for defeat after Senate > Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. > > The group kicked off a $250,000 television and radio blitz in Stupak's > district Wednesday, ahead of rallies that began Thursday night and were > continuing through the weekend. > > "The surprising announcement that Congressman Bart Stupak is abandoning > his campaign for re-election shows the power of the tea party movement," > said a statement posted Friday on its Web site. > > Michigan's 1st District is notoriously difficult turf for anyone trying > to unseat the incumbent. Measuring 600 miles wide, it takes in about > half the state's land mass ? including the entire Upper Peninsula ? and > has no major media market. The largest city, Marquette, where Stupak was > planning to officially announce his retirement later Friday, has about > 20,000 residents. > > > *Video: An angry nation erupts* > > > > Stupak has routinely won re-election by wide margins, defeating former > state Rep. Tom Casperson with 65 percent of the vote in 2008, and said > he was confident of prevailing again. > > He acknowledged the criticism he received over the health care overhaul > ? including telephone threats to his office ? had taken a toll, but said > he had thrived during the debate. What wore him down, he said, was the > grind of constant travel across his sprawling district. > > "When I come home I can't stay home," he said. "I'm there 12 hours and > take off. That has gotten hard." > > Stupak said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer > had urged him to seek re-election. Republicans represented his rural, > blue-collar district for nearly three decades before he won in 1992, and > his departure will create a strong opportunity for the GOP. > > Still, he said a moderate Democrat would have a good chance. > > "There are a lot of great Democratic elected officials and activists > throughout the entire district. I'm confident we'll have a very strong > candidate," said Mark Brewer, chairman of Michigan Democratic Party. > > Democrat Connie Saltonstall, an ex-teacher and ex-Charlevoix County > commissioner, was endorsed last month by the National Organization for > Women in her bid to win the 1st District seat. > > "This retirement presents Republicans with a very promising opportunity > heading into the November elections," said Tom Erickson, spokesman for > the National Republican Congressional Committee. They're certainly going > to have a tough time trying to hold on to this seat." > > Stupak said he reached his decision this week after talking with his > family and was making a quick announcement to give other Democratic > hopefuls time to organize and get their names on the primary election > ballot. > > "I feel like I can finally step away," Stupak said. "I can be home more > often with my wife. I'm young enough to start a new career. I'm at peace > and very comfortable with my decision." > > Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36312615/ns/politics/ > > > MSN Privacy . Legal > > ? 2010 MSNBC.com > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100409/f1788ce6/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Sat Apr 10 13:53:42 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:53:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100410/3d0b8f2d/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 15:14:51 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:14:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This election will probably be the opposite. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of > the vote last time. > > bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a little to do >> with it. >> >> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/her state, >> is dead meat anyway. >> >> Don >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >> >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea >> Party claims victory > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sat Apr 10 19:34:07 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Earth Day Week Events 4/17 - 4/25/10 In-Reply-To: <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <854036.69793.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> This is long - sorry! ? Happy Birthday Earth Day Week! ? Dear All, ? You are invited to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of Earth Day the whole week of 4/17 - 4/25/2010!?? The Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Washington County (UUCCWC) at Orenco is hosting a week long community celebration for everyone! ? Most events happen at UUCCWC,?22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124 BUT some events happen OUTSIDE - in NATURE!!!! ? Below is a list of events - please come as you will and enjoy our offerings. ? SOLV IT Project: Noble Woods Park, April 17, 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. ? Saturday April 17, 9 AM ? 1 PM at Noble Woods Park for a SOLV IT Earth Day Birthday spring cleaning project. You are invited to join other community volunteers help get the park ready after a long winter by finishing landscaping a new picnic area, planting native plants and spreading mulch on trails. ??Join us at the picnic shelter near the south parking lot (SE 231st and Borwick in Hillsboro). We'll celebrate Earth Day's 40th birthday with treats when we're done. For more details and directions, visit the SOLV IT page for the Noble Woods project. ? ? Food for Thought Film Festival: Weeknights April 19-23, 7 p.m. ? During the week of Monday, April 19 through Friday, April 23, you're invited to a veritable feast of mouth-watering documentaries as we examine the state of the American diet and the industry that feeds it. ? Our Food for Thought film feast runs weeknights starting at 7 p.m. in the UUCCWC Social Hall, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124. ? * ???Monday, April 19: Doc and Connie Hatfield: The Country Natural Beef Story "...great little film about food and land and Oregon..." Documentary film by church member Joe Walicki. A personal look at the unique and caring couple whose family ranch in Brothers, Oregon was the start of our state's natural beef industry. Now a cooperative of more than 20 ranches using sustainable and organic methods, Country Natural Beef sells to stores in Portland and Japan. Joe will introduce the film and answer questions afterward.? ? *?? Tuesday, April 20: Good Food: Locally-made documentary about sustainable farming, food distribution & marketing in the Pacific Northwest. It includes a segment on the produce buyer for New Seasons markets ? ? * ??Wednesday, April 21 and Thursday April 22: Due to licensing restrictions, we are not allowed to advertise the titles of the films being screened Wednesday and Thursday. But they are well known, and widely recognized for providing an eye-opening perspective on the cultural and physical distance our food travels from the farm to our table. Wednesday's film provides an in-depth look at the realities of farming, from planting the first seed to trying to find the food in the final product. Thursday's film focuses on the evolution of the food industry, examining how we got to today's modern business model and its impact on our bodies and our environment. ? * ??Friday, April 23: Fresh! In contrast to the Wednesday and Thursday films about what's wrong with America's food industry, this documentary features Michael Pollan, Will Allen and Joel Salatin and celebrates the farmers, thinkers and business people who are rethinking the American home meal. An exciting movement invites our active participation in growing, buying, serving and eating food that's fresh, local, healthy and delicious. ? FREE FAMILY FUN FAIR! ?Saturday, April 24, 12 to 5 p.m.? ? Family Fun Fair will be held on the church grounds on Saturday, April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! ? A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 p.m.?followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. ? Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact growgreener2010 at gmail.com. ? A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. ? UUCCWC Sunday Services: April 25 9:30 and 11:15 a.m. UUCCWC's Earth Day events conclude on Sunday, April 25th, with a message on the ethics and spirituality of food, "Communion for the Community from the Rev. Katherine Jesch, a community environmental minister, at both church services (held at 9:30 and 11:15 am). ? We hope there is something in this array of events to wet your appetite!? Feel free to email me if questions. (or answers!)? Alana ?The Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Washington Councy is a certified Green Sanctuary, committed to protecting and caring for the interdependent web of life of which we are a part From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 20:18:17 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:18:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the incumbent people said he was the man for them. People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. Katie On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This > election will probably be the opposite. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of >> the vote last time. >> >> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>> little to do >>> with it. >>> >>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>> her state, >>> is dead meat anyway. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> >>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>> again, Tea >>> Party claims victory >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 20:25:49 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:25:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Earth Day Week Events 4/17 - 4/25/10 In-Reply-To: <854036.69793.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <854036.69793.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FFB054D-403E-4A72-BFDC-28261DF8E126@verizon.net> Alana, Regarding the note about recycling about 2/3 of the way down... Do you know what happens to the computers if we bring them. We have an old one that we were going to give to free geek eventualy but we don't really have a vested interest in where it ultimately goes. This is closer than Portland so it would save some gas to bring it here. Katie Maybe other grovenuts have some too. On Apr 10, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > > This is long - sorry! > > > Happy Birthday Earth Day Week! > > Dear All, > > You are invited to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of Earth Day the > whole week of 4/17 - 4/25/2010! The Unitarian Universalist > Community Church of Washington County (UUCCWC) at Orenco is hosting > a week long community celebration for everyone! > > Most events happen at UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124 > BUT some events happen OUTSIDE - in NATURE!!!! > > Below is a list of events - please come as you will and enjoy our > offerings. > > SOLV IT Project: Noble Woods Park, April 17, 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. > > Saturday April 17, 9 AM ? 1 PM at Noble Woods Park for a SOLV IT > Earth Day Birthday spring cleaning project. You are invited to join > other community volunteers help get the park ready after a long > winter by finishing landscaping a new picnic area, planting native > plants and spreading mulch on trails. Join us at the picnic > shelter near the south parking lot (SE 231st and Borwick in > Hillsboro). We'll celebrate Earth Day's 40th birthday with treats > when we're done. For more details and directions, visit the SOLV IT > page for the Noble Woods project. > > > Food for Thought Film Festival: Weeknights April 19-23, 7 p.m. > During the week of Monday, April 19 through Friday, April 23, > you're invited to a veritable feast of mouth-watering documentaries > as we examine the state of the American diet and the industry that > feeds it. > > Our Food for Thought film feast runs weeknights starting at 7 p.m. > in the UUCCWC Social Hall, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124. > > * Monday, April 19: Doc and Connie Hatfield: The Country Natural > Beef Story "...great little film about food and land and Oregon..." > Documentary film by church member Joe Walicki. A personal look at > the unique and caring couple whose family ranch in Brothers, Oregon > was the start of our state's natural beef industry. Now a > cooperative of more than 20 ranches using sustainable and organic > methods, Country Natural Beef sells to stores in Portland and > Japan. Joe will introduce the film and answer questions afterward. > > * Tuesday, April 20: Good Food: Locally-made documentary about > sustainable farming, food distribution & marketing in the Pacific > Northwest. It includes a segment on the produce buyer for New > Seasons markets > > * Wednesday, April 21 and Thursday April 22: Due to licensing > restrictions, we are not allowed to advertise the titles of the > films being screened Wednesday and Thursday. But they are well > known, and widely recognized for providing an eye-opening > perspective on the cultural and physical distance our food travels > from the farm to our table. > Wednesday's film provides an in-depth look at the realities of > farming, from planting the first seed to trying to find the food in > the final product. > Thursday's film focuses on the evolution of the food industry, > examining how we got to today's modern business model and its > impact on our bodies and our environment. > > * Friday, April 23: Fresh! In contrast to the Wednesday and > Thursday films about what's wrong with America's food industry, > this documentary features Michael Pollan, Will Allen and Joel > Salatin and celebrates the farmers, thinkers and business people > who are rethinking the American home meal. An exciting movement > invites our active participation in growing, buying, serving and > eating food that's fresh, local, healthy and delicious. > > FREE FAMILY FUN FAIR! Saturday, April 24, 12 to 5 p.m. > > Family Fun Fair will be held on the church grounds on Saturday, > April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native > plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on > gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional > cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! > > A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 > p.m. followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. > > Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items > that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, > printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household > batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old > child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact > growgreener2010 at gmail.com. > > A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local > Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported > agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable > cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. > > UUCCWC Sunday Services: April 25 9:30 and 11:15 a.m. > UUCCWC's Earth Day events conclude on Sunday, April 25th, with a > message on the ethics and spirituality of food, "Communion for the > Community from the Rev. Katherine Jesch, a community environmental > minister, at both church services (held at 9:30 and 11:15 am). > > We hope there is something in this array of events to wet your > appetite! Feel free to email me if questions. (or answers!) Alana > The Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Washington Councy > is a certified Green Sanctuary, committed to protecting and caring > for the interdependent web of life of which we are a part > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 10 20:38:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:38:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC14431.000010.00264@DON-B2514E06367> This is an interesting video. I don't know what it means, but it is interesting. I watched it about half way through and then labeled it crap, just like it's title. But in case I missed something important, what does it mean to you all? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3S09QPlsg8&feature=player_embedded Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 04/10/10 15:15:12 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This election will probably be the opposite. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of > the vote last time. > > bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a little to do >> with it. >> >> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/her state >> is dead meat anyway. >> >> Don >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >> >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea >> Party claims victory > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100410/5c8804c9/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 10 21:12:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:12:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC14C2C.000019.00264@DON-B2514E06367> I think Americans are far more angry now than they have ever been since the Civil War. With Acorn, rampant fraud, bloated health care, cap and trade, global warming, government takeover of banks, manufacturing, lending institutions, and now the threat of taking public lands, founding a private army, taking over energy production, seizing guns and disarming Americans, socialist acts in violation of the constitution, President Bush has no chance to be anywhere near top dog in generating anger. And remember, a lot of what started the Civil War is happening now in different forms. How much will people take before they get angrier? How much will the states take before they put their foot down, and put government in it's constitutional place? Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/10/2010 8:18:41 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the incumbent people said he was the man for them. People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. Katie On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This > election will probably be the opposite. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of >> the vote last time. >> >> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>> little to do >>> with it. >>> >>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>> her state, >>> is dead meat anyway. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> >>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>> again, Tea >>> Party claims victory >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100410/8dd1565b/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 10 21:40:46 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:40:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BBFFF43.000025.02392@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6776.8000009@jurislex.com> <36EB4F88-66F0-4E10-8035-1364CAC902CE@verizon.net> <4BBF7E24.909@gmail.com> <4BBFFF43.000025.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2010, at 9:32 PM, donkelly wrote: > It seems logical for all parties to delay socialists actions of the > president as long as possible so he has less time to do America > more serious > damage. > > What else could be a motive to delay? Well, lessee.... How about, trying to undermine Obama's tenure by making every crisis bigger through stalling, stonewalling and obstructionism? How about, "Making Obama Fail" (the mantra of the Repubs ever since the election), even if that requires making the entire country fail also? How about, pumping up "the Base" with apocalyptic predictions of DOOM for every measure, even if said measure was originally proposed by Repubs? How about... aw jeeze, I'm tired of this petty game. How about, the most obvious motive is the true one? WW > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 4/9/2010 1:18:28 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Justice Stevens resigning from the Supreme > Court > > It is highly likely that what ever judge Obama nominates the party of > "hell no" will try to block them. > This is regardless of whether it is a liberal, moderate or even a > conservative. > The game plan for the republican party is to be disruptive and > contrarian to make Obama look bad no matter what. > > I hardly believe that a 90 year old man who has been hinting that he > will retire soon chose the timing based on the election cycle. It is > much more likely that he chose the timing based on the court's > calendar. Justices tend to be more logical than political (at least > the ones who aren't activists like Alito and Roberts and Scalia). So > a summer retirement between session is much more likely the reason > than in the middle of a session which merely coincidentally falls > after the elections. > > Stevens has been a moderate for a long time and he didn't become > 'liberal' until the rest of the court took a sharp turn toward > corporate friendly conservatism under Bush. Remember Stevens was > appointed by a Republican even it is was the old fashioned reasonable > kind. > > Katie > > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> It can be debated whether or not Stevens is a moderate or liberal. >> His >> retirement now, before the general election, may mean something >> else? A >> new justice will get elected with the numbers that are there now, but >> would they next year? >> >> And I though that justice was supposed to be blind. :-\ >> >> Adam >> >> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>> It will be interesting to watch the party of "hell no" as they >>> try to >>> maneuver so that only a conservative can replace a moderate. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Apr 9, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >>> >>> >>>> FYI, since Obama will now have his second opportunity to seek >>>> appointment of a Supreme Court Justice. >>>> >>>> bob "I don't go that high" browning >>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >>>> ABA Midyear Meeting 2010 >>>> >>>> Race & Gender of Judges Make Enormous Differences in Rulings, >>>> Studies Find >>>> >>>> Posted Feb 6, 2010 7:20 PM CDT >>>> By Edward A. Adams >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pat K. Chew. >>>> Jensen Larson Photography >>>> >>>> A judge's race or gender makes for a dramatic difference in the >>>> outcome of cases they hear?at least for cases in which race and >>>> gender allegedly play a role in the conduct of the parties, >>>> according to two recent studies. >>>> >>>> The results were the focus of a program about ?Diversity on the >>>> Bench: Is the ?Wise Latina? a Myth?,? sponsored by the ABA Judicial >>>> Division at the ABA Midyear Meeting in Orlando on Saturday >>>> afternoon. >>>> >>>> In federal racial harassment cases, one study (PDF) found that >>>> plaintiffs lost just 54 percent of the time when the judge handling >>>> the case was an African-American. Yet plaintiffs lost 81 percent of >>>> the time when the judge was Hispanic, 79 percent when the judge was >>>> white, and 67 percent of the time when the judge was Asian >>>> American. >>>> >>>> The comprehensive study, by professors from the University of >>>> Pittsburgh School of Law and Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper >>>> School of Business, examined a random assortment of 40 percent of >>>> all reported racial harassment cases from six federal circuits >>>> between 1981 and 2003. >>>> >>>> A second study (PDF), looked at 556 federal appellate cases >>>> involving allegations of sexual harassment or sex discrimination in >>>> violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The >>>> finding: plaintiffs were at least twice as likely to win if a >>>> female judge was on the appellate panel. >>>> >>>> University of Pittsburgh School of Law Professor Pat K. Chew, who >>>> co-authored the racial harassment study, said she found ?the rule >>>> of law is intact? in the cases she reviewed. Judges?no matter which >>>> side they ruled for?took the same procedural steps to reach their >>>> decisions, she said. >>>> >>>> But judges of different races took different approaches ?on how to >>>> interpret the facts of the cases,? she said. >>>> >>>> Pressed on whether the rule of law could actually be considered >>>> intact when outcomes varied so much depending on the race of the >>>> judge, she replied: "It?s always made a difference who the judge >>>> was. We?ve long known, for instance, that a judge?s political >>>> affiliation makes a difference." >>>> >>>> Judge Carol E. Jackson of U.S. District Court for the Eastern >>>> District of Missouri said she was heartened that diversity has >>>> crept into the federal court system, where today 20 percent of >>>> judges are women and 15 percent are members of minority groups. >>>> >>>> "It?s important that different voices are being heard," she said. >>>> >>>> The program took its title from a much-debated comment made years >>>> ago by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor : ?I would hope >>>> that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would >>>> more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who >>>> hasn?t lived that life.? >>>> >>>> The participants never answered the question of whether a Latina >>>> judge reaches better conclusions, but at least in some cases, it >>>> appears likely that she would reach a different conclusion from a >>>> white male jurist hearing the same evidence. >>>> >>>> Copyright 2010 American Bar Association. All rights reserved. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> l.png>>>> shadow3.png>>>> shadow6.png> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 22:01:43 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:01:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Earth Day Week Events 4/17 - 4/25/10 In-Reply-To: <4FFB054D-403E-4A72-BFDC-28261DF8E126@verizon.net> References: <854036.69793.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4FFB054D-403E-4A72-BFDC-28261DF8E126@verizon.net> Message-ID: Just an FYI.... the place in Cornelius, just north of Hwy. 8 on Cornelius Schefflin Rd. (probably called 10th), takes all kinds of electronics for recycling. My mom recently took a couple of computers, printers, cables, floppy disks etc. and they took everything. The building is on the left hand side and you can see the sign "Computer recycling" from the road. In case you don't want to drive all the way to Hillsboro... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:25 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Earth Day Week Events 4/17 - 4/25/10 > Alana, > Regarding the note about recycling about 2/3 of the way down... > Do you know what happens to the computers if we bring them. We have > an old one that we were going to give to free geek eventualy but we > don't really have a vested interest in where it ultimately goes. > This is closer than Portland so it would save some gas to bring it here. > > Katie > Maybe other grovenuts have some too. > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > >> >> This is long - sorry! >> >> >> Happy Birthday Earth Day Week! >> >> Dear All, >> >> You are invited to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of Earth Day the >> whole week of 4/17 - 4/25/2010! The Unitarian Universalist >> Community Church of Washington County (UUCCWC) at Orenco is hosting >> a week long community celebration for everyone! >> >> Most events happen at UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124 >> BUT some events happen OUTSIDE - in NATURE!!!! >> >> Below is a list of events - please come as you will and enjoy our >> offerings. >> >> SOLV IT Project: Noble Woods Park, April 17, 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. >> >> Saturday April 17, 9 AM ? 1 PM at Noble Woods Park for a SOLV IT >> Earth Day Birthday spring cleaning project. You are invited to join >> other community volunteers help get the park ready after a long >> winter by finishing landscaping a new picnic area, planting native >> plants and spreading mulch on trails. Join us at the picnic >> shelter near the south parking lot (SE 231st and Borwick in >> Hillsboro). We'll celebrate Earth Day's 40th birthday with treats >> when we're done. For more details and directions, visit the SOLV IT >> page for the Noble Woods project. >> >> >> Food for Thought Film Festival: Weeknights April 19-23, 7 p.m. >> During the week of Monday, April 19 through Friday, April 23, >> you're invited to a veritable feast of mouth-watering documentaries >> as we examine the state of the American diet and the industry that >> feeds it. >> >> Our Food for Thought film feast runs weeknights starting at 7 p.m. >> in the UUCCWC Social Hall, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro 97124. >> >> * Monday, April 19: Doc and Connie Hatfield: The Country Natural >> Beef Story "...great little film about food and land and Oregon..." >> Documentary film by church member Joe Walicki. A personal look at >> the unique and caring couple whose family ranch in Brothers, Oregon >> was the start of our state's natural beef industry. Now a >> cooperative of more than 20 ranches using sustainable and organic >> methods, Country Natural Beef sells to stores in Portland and >> Japan. Joe will introduce the film and answer questions afterward. >> >> * Tuesday, April 20: Good Food: Locally-made documentary about >> sustainable farming, food distribution & marketing in the Pacific >> Northwest. It includes a segment on the produce buyer for New >> Seasons markets >> >> * Wednesday, April 21 and Thursday April 22: Due to licensing >> restrictions, we are not allowed to advertise the titles of the >> films being screened Wednesday and Thursday. But they are well >> known, and widely recognized for providing an eye-opening >> perspective on the cultural and physical distance our food travels >> from the farm to our table. >> Wednesday's film provides an in-depth look at the realities of >> farming, from planting the first seed to trying to find the food in >> the final product. >> Thursday's film focuses on the evolution of the food industry, >> examining how we got to today's modern business model and its >> impact on our bodies and our environment. >> >> * Friday, April 23: Fresh! In contrast to the Wednesday and >> Thursday films about what's wrong with America's food industry, >> this documentary features Michael Pollan, Will Allen and Joel >> Salatin and celebrates the farmers, thinkers and business people >> who are rethinking the American home meal. An exciting movement >> invites our active participation in growing, buying, serving and >> eating food that's fresh, local, healthy and delicious. >> >> FREE FAMILY FUN FAIR! Saturday, April 24, 12 to 5 p.m. >> >> Family Fun Fair will be held on the church grounds on Saturday, >> April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native >> plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on >> gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional >> cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! >> >> A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 >> p.m. followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. >> >> Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items >> that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, >> printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household >> batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old >> child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact >> growgreener2010 at gmail.com. >> >> A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local >> Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported >> agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable >> cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. >> >> UUCCWC Sunday Services: April 25 9:30 and 11:15 a.m. >> UUCCWC's Earth Day events conclude on Sunday, April 25th, with a >> message on the ethics and spirituality of food, "Communion for the >> Community from the Rev. Katherine Jesch, a community environmental >> minister, at both church services (held at 9:30 and 11:15 am). >> >> We hope there is something in this array of events to wet your >> appetite! Feel free to email me if questions. (or answers!) Alana >> The Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Washington Councy >> is a certified Green Sanctuary, committed to protecting and caring >> for the interdependent web of life of which we are a part >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 22:21:30 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> I'm currently reading the Thomas Friedman book, The World is Flat. It's a great book and I just read about how globalization could reshuffle politics, page 257: Think about it: Social conservatives from the right wing of the Republican party, who do not like globalization or closer integration with the world because it brings too many foreigners and foreign cultural mores into America, might align themselves with unions from the left wing of the Democratic party, who don't like globalization for the way it facilitates the outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. They might be called the Wall Party and militate for more friction and fat everywhere. Let's face it: Republican cultural conservatives have much more in common with the steelworkers of Youngstown, Ohio, the farmers of rural China, and the mullahs of central Saudi Arabia, who would also like more walls, than they do with investment bankers on Wall Street or service workers linked to the global economy in Palo Alto, who have been enriched by the flattening of the world. Meanwhile, the business wing of the Republican Party, which believes in free trade, deregulation, more integration, and lower taxes - everything that would flattent he world even more - may end up aligning itself with the social liberals of the Democratic Party, many of whom are East Coast or West Coast global service industry workers. They might also be joined by Hollywood and other entertainment workers. All of them are huge beneficiaries of the flat world. They might be called the Web Party, whose main platform would be to promote more global integration. Many residents of Manhattan and Palo Alto have more interests in common with the people of Shanghai and Bangalore than they do with the residents of Youngstown or Topeka. In short, in a flat world, we are likely to see many social liberals, white-collar global service industry workers, and Wall Street types driven together, and many social conservatives, white-collar local service industry workers, and labor unions driven together. I thought it was an interesting concept and thinking about how I would align myself gave me lots to think about. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory > I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a > Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question > people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was > whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the > incumbent people said he was the man for them. > People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. > > But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is > likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. > > Katie > > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This >> election will probably be the opposite. >> >> Adam >> >> Bob Browning wrote: >>> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of >>> the vote last time. >>> >>> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>>> little to do >>>> with it. >>>> >>>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>>> her state, >>>> is dead meat anyway. >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> -------Original Message------- >>>> >>>> From: Adam Mayer >>>> >>>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>>> >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>>> again, Tea >>>> Party claims victory >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Sat Apr 10 22:32:05 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:32:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D830D6BD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Who was angry before or in the Civil War? What were they angry about? Who did the anger polling? Were they more angry than the slaves? Were the enslaved included in the anger poll? How is anger from 150 years ago measured and quantified? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: donkelly Sent: April 10, 2010 9:12 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory I think Americans are far more angry now than they have ever been since the Civil War. With Acorn, rampant fraud, bloated health care, cap and trade, global warming, government takeover of banks, manufacturing, lending institutions, and now the threat of taking public lands, founding a private army, taking over energy production, seizing guns and disarming Americans, socialist acts in violation of the constitution, President Bush has no chance to be anywhere near top dog in generating anger. And remember, a lot of what started the Civil War is happening now in different forms. How much will people take before they get angrier? How much will the states take before they put their foot down, and put government in it's constitutional place? Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/10/2010 8:18:41 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the incumbent people said he was the man for them. People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. Katie On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This > election will probably be the opposite. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with 65% of >> the vote last time. >> >> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>> little to do >>> with it. >>> >>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>> her state, >>> is dead meat anyway. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> >>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>> again, Tea >>> Party claims victory >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 22:33:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:33:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: I remember that the last election was won under the banner of "Change we can believe in". Well, we now have a change that is a little hard to believe. "Maverick" is a mantle McCain no longer claims; in fact, he now denies he ever was one. "I never considered myself a maverick," he told me. "I consider myself a person who serves the people of Arizona to the best of his abilities." (Newsweek article) http://www.newsweek.com/id/235883 In case anyone has forgotten, Senator McCain personally claimed the mantle of Maverick on national TV in the 2008 Presidential debates, as well as his campaign ads. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGOZJ0ceJpc In fairness to Senator McCain, he has little choice. The Republican Party has become the party of "Say No" [S'no]. And people like McCain who did work with other Senators, even Democratic Senators, are not welcome in the Party of S'no. They only want "S'no" Men. They want people who will tow the party line, and Senator McCain's history doesn't show that willingness to say "No" to bi-partisan ideas. This may say more about the Party of "Say No" and their S'no Men, than it does about people who were once proud of their independence. David On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This election will probably be the opposite. > > Adam From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 22:34:07 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:34:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <210BFB05-6B05-48D4-B09A-D828C799E8AC@verizon.net> Very interesting. There has been much talk about the Citizens United case being one that brings lots of republicans and democrats together around their jointly held belief that the US is better off if multinational corporations can't just out right buy elections. I'm not yet convinced the republicans are willing to work together on anything just yet but it is possible. Katie On Apr 10, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm currently reading the Thomas Friedman book, The World is Flat. > It's a > great book and I just read about how globalization could reshuffle > politics, > page 257: > > Think about it: Social conservatives from the right wing of the > Republican party, who do not like globalization or closer > integration with > the world because it brings too many foreigners and foreign > cultural mores > into America, might align themselves with unions from the left wing > of the > Democratic party, who don't like globalization for the way it > facilitates > the outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. They might be called the > Wall Party > and militate for more friction and fat everywhere. Let's face it: > Republican cultural conservatives have much more in common with the > steelworkers of Youngstown, Ohio, the farmers of rural China, and the > mullahs of central Saudi Arabia, who would also like more walls, > than they > do with investment bankers on Wall Street or service workers linked > to the > global economy in Palo Alto, who have been enriched by the > flattening of the > world. > Meanwhile, the business wing of the Republican Party, which > believes in > free trade, deregulation, more integration, and lower taxes - > everything > that would flattent he world even more - may end up aligning itself > with the > social liberals of the Democratic Party, many of whom are East > Coast or West > Coast global service industry workers. They might also be joined by > Hollywood and other entertainment workers. All of them are huge > beneficiaries of the flat world. They might be called the Web > Party, whose > main platform would be to promote more global integration. Many > residents > of Manhattan and Palo Alto have more interests in common with the > people of > Shanghai and Bangalore than they do with the residents of > Youngstown or > Topeka. In short, in a flat world, we are likely to see many social > liberals, white-collar global service industry workers, and Wall > Street > types driven together, and many social conservatives, white-collar > local > service industry workers, and labor unions driven together. > > I thought it was an interesting concept and thinking about how I > would align > myself gave me lots to think about. > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run > again, Tea > Party claims victory > >> I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a >> Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question >> people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was >> whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the >> incumbent people said he was the man for them. >> People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. >> >> But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is >> likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. >> >> Katie >> >> >> On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >>> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. >>> This >>> election will probably be the opposite. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Bob Browning wrote: >>>> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with >>>> 65% of >>>> the vote last time. >>>> >>>> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" >>>> browning >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>>>> little to do >>>>> with it. >>>>> >>>>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>>>> her state, >>>>> is dead meat anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>> >>>>> From: Adam Mayer >>>>> >>>>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>>>> again, Tea >>>>> Party claims victory >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> --- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 22:44:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC14431.000010.00264@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC14431.000010.00264@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <96B39A93-6A5F-47AD-9A48-271FA2CF176D@verizon.net> I didn't make it any further than you. It appears to be a political piece with foul language. David On Apr 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > This is an interesting video. I don't know what it means, but it is interesting. > > I watched it about half way through and then labeled it crap, just like it's title. > > But in case I missed something important, what does it mean to you all? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3S09QPlsg8&feature=player_embedded > > > > Don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 23:01:34 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:01:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> Doesn't surprise me the least. Backpedaling can happen as shortly as two years as seen with McCain. But the public will buy it, at least enough of it. The average person doesn't feel comfortable with one political party in full control. This is why the Republicans will get back seats in November. Enough to take the majority? I don't think so. Enough to almost balance it out, in the house at least? Very likely. This will cause more gridlock, which usually bodes well with the stock market going up. There are many who believe that if government is spinning its wheels it won't have time to raise taxes or interfere with businesses. The average voter also feels more comfortable believing that there is a balance between Congress and the White House. So all of the rhetoric will be flying high between now and November from each party about how the other party will destroy America, when it seems to be both of them are actually doing it themselves. Adam David Morelli wrote: > I remember that the last election was won under the banner of "Change we can believe in". > > Well, we now have a change that is a little hard to believe. > > > "Maverick" is a mantle McCain no longer claims; in fact, he now denies he ever was one. "I never considered myself a maverick," he told me. "I consider myself a person who serves the people of Arizona to the best of his abilities." > (Newsweek article) > http://www.newsweek.com/id/235883 > > In case anyone has forgotten, Senator McCain personally claimed the mantle of Maverick on national TV in the 2008 Presidential debates, as well as his campaign ads. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGOZJ0ceJpc > > In fairness to Senator McCain, he has little choice. The Republican Party has become the party of "Say No" [S'no]. And people like McCain who did work with other Senators, even Democratic Senators, are not welcome in the Party of S'no. They only want "S'no" Men. They want people who will tow the party line, and Senator McCain's history doesn't show that willingness to say "No" to bi-partisan ideas. > > This may say more about the Party of "Say No" and their S'no Men, than it does about people who were once proud of their independence. > > David > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. This election will probably be the opposite. >> >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 23:21:50 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:21:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC14C2C.000019.00264@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <4BC14C2C.000019.00264@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <168535CF-8C8D-4686-9E51-9AFF46D720A4@verizon.net> Wow, what a laundry list. On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think Americans are far more angry now than they have ever been since the Civil War. > > With Acorn, The law requires that ALL voter registration cards that are collected must be turned in. Were you mad at them for turning in fraudulent ones? And are you mad at the Republican agents who threw out the valid Democratic registrations? > rampant fraud, Yes like credit default swaps, toxic mortgage bundling, no-bid cost-plus government contracts to companies like Halliburton. > bloated health care, I would hope that you are describing the current private health care system, since the proposed changes have not taken place, yet. > cap and trade, Did you want no limits on pollution? > global warming, I'm pretty mad about global warming. Are you mad about it too, or are you angry that you may have to change your life style to reduce the impact? > government takeover of banks, manufacturing, lending institutions, I'm angry that the people who profited from creating the problem got to stay out of jail, what are you angry about? > and now the threat of taking public lands, Perhaps you can explain this. > founding a private army, I agree, Blackwater should not be paid by the government, nor should it be allowed to operate within the United States. Wasn't that a Republican "privatization" program? > taking over energy production, Right, Enron knew how to run energy companies. > seizing guns and disarming Americans, Are you complaining about taking guns from the militia that was planning on killing cops? Or something else? > socialist acts in violation of the constitution, Okay, so long as we can continue to have socialist acts that are allowed by the Constitution. > President Bush has no chance to be anywhere near top dog in generating anger. See, we agree. President Bush doesn't do a radio show to generate anger by spewing vitriol, I think someone like Rush would be the top dog in that category. > > And remember, a lot of what started the Civil War is happening now in different forms. Yes, the South wanted to perpetuate physical slavery, now it is economic slavery. > How much will people take before they get angrier? > How much will the states take before they put their foot down, and put government in it's constitutional place? We could go on for a long time on this one item. How many of the Constitutional Amendments are you willing to accept? How many of the Supreme Court decisions are you willing to accept? > > Don David From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 23:33:10 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:33:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> Adam, I don't doubt that there may be a connection between government gridlock and the stock market. With our high rate of unemployment and under employment, perhaps you can explain why the stock market is a good indicator of national health? Except for initial stock offering, money that changes hands on the stock market doesn't do anything to expand production or create new (non stock market) jobs. And if a stock is selling for 40 times earnings, it isn't even a great rate of return. So, why build national policy around keeping the stock market "up"? It looks like "smoke and mirrors" to take attention away from things like mortgage defaults and job loss. David On Apr 10, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > ... > This will cause more gridlock, which usually bodes well with the stock market going up. There are many who believe that if government is spinning its wheels it won't have time to raise taxes or interfere with businesses. The average voter also feels more comfortable believing that there is a balance between Congress and the White House. ... > Adam From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 09:22:17 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:22:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> I don't trust the stock market, that's why I don't own stocks and I'm very careful about how I invest my money. And I agree that the stock market cannot be used for measuring the true state of our economy. But people do use it as a focal point measurement of how the economy is doing. Last year I remember hearing on some business program, the host proudly claiming that the economic crisis is over because the stock market is climbing again. I personally don't see that it is, business are still downsizing, closing, moving out of the state, high unemployment, salaries being frozen (been there) and cut (just happened a few months ago). This much I can gather, the more the government tries to help the worse it seems to get. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Adam, > I don't doubt that there may be a connection between government gridlock and the stock market. > > With our high rate of unemployment and under employment, perhaps you can explain why the stock market is a good indicator of national health? > > Except for initial stock offering, money that changes hands on the stock market doesn't do anything to expand production or create new (non stock market) jobs. And if a stock is selling for 40 times earnings, it isn't even a great rate of return. > > So, why build national policy around keeping the stock market "up"? > > It looks like "smoke and mirrors" to take attention away from things like mortgage defaults and job loss. > > David > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> ... >> This will cause more gridlock, which usually bodes well with the stock market going up. There are many who believe that if government is spinning its wheels it won't have time to raise taxes or interfere with businesses. The average voter also feels more comfortable believing that there is a balance between Congress and the White House. >> > ... > >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From rab at jurislex.com Sun Apr 11 18:17:23 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:17:23 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Message-ID: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> Don - I know where I got the 65% figure from, but where did you get the 78% ? ? bob "Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Sat 04/10/10 20:05 , "donkelly" ocollaugh at comcast.net sent: v:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } If Stupak won 65% of the vote based on promises to his supporters, but then lost 78% of state support because he failed to keep his promises, a reversal in support seems reasonable and expected. From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 11 19:35:45 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:35:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> Perhaps, as you say, "the more the government tries to help the worse it seems to get." But only the federal government can remove the tax incentives to move production overseas, they control the tax code. Only the federal government can negotiate with China over the exchange rate, which is important because it isn't set by market forces. Only the federal government can prosecute fraud in the international and interstate banking system, and restore the laws intended to prohibit the fraudulent actions. Only the federal government can regulate interstate mortgage companies and international investors in the arena of bankruptcy. If we prevent the federal government from acting, we leave those problems in place. And I would point out, there are some well paid people who seriously want those issues left unchanged. I like the free market. I would like to see the free market replace what we have now, because we don't have a free market in very many areas. David On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I don't trust the stock market, that's why I don't own stocks and I'm very careful about how I invest my money. And I agree that the stock market cannot be used for measuring the true state of our economy. But people do use it as a focal point measurement of how the economy is doing. Last year I remember hearing on some business program, the host proudly claiming that the economic crisis is over because the stock market is climbing again. I personally don't see that it is, business are still downsizing, closing, moving out of the state, high unemployment, salaries being frozen (been there) and cut (just happened a few months ago). > > This much I can gather, the more the government tries to help the worse it seems to get. > > Adam From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 11 22:20:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:20:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <4BC14C2C.000019.00264@DON-B2514E06367> <168535CF-8C8D-4686-9E51-9AFF46D720A4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC2AD9C.00002D.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Ok David, I will speak to your points though you probably know more about them than I do, and you asked questions you already know the answers to. I hope this is of interest to others. -------Original Message------- From: MorellDavidi Date: 04/10/10 23:22:34 To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Wow, what a laundry list. Yes, it is a long laundry list, I believe longer than any previous president has faced. On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think Americans are far more angry now than they have ever been since the Civil War. > > With Acorn, The law requires that ALL voter registration cards that are collected must be turned in. Were you mad at them for turning in fraudulent ones? And are you mad at the Republican agents who threw out the valid Democratic registrations? Acorn founders started over twenty years ago as organizers of draft dodgers, followed by organizing people to achieve social justice. I wasn't crazy about the draft dodger bit, but I supported social justice. The same people founded CAIR, an organization devoted to organizing unions. Since then CAIR and ACORN have been joined at the hip. You know my objection was not associated with turning in registrations. You know the problem was in registering under age people, non citizens, convicts and dead people, and doing so deliberately to skew elections. Today ACORN is not your father's ACORN. Counting their housing, office buildings, and over 80 staffed offices, they own about 172 buildings with head quarters a short distance from the white house, and that does not include CAIR head quartered in New Orleans, all partially supported by your tax dollars. Having your's and my taxes going to support a grossly infected fraudulent organization is what makes me mad, and the social injustice of it all. Finally, using CAIR and Black Panther organizations to intimidate poling places. > rampant fraud, Yes like credit default swaps, toxic mortgage bundling, no-bid cost-plus government contracts to companies like Halliburton. Yes, and the ACORN housing company, Obama's own fraud while buying his home, and the donated lot next door, complicity in prompting Fannie May and Freddie Mac to underwrite home purchases people could not afford to pay, then intimidating banks by threat of boycott, to underwrite loans only a small percentage of buyers could actually pay back. There is a lot not to like there. > bloated health care, I would hope that you are describing the current private health care system, since the proposed changes have not taken place, yet. Current yes, and fear they will not correct it in time, yes. There is a better way to go. > cap and trade, Did you want no limits on pollution? Insincere question David. Cap n trade in another form started during the Reagan/Bush years, with energy companies in the east trading carbon credits. THEY CLAIM their system was good because it put an end to acid rain in the Adirondacks. I don't know if that is true, but acid rain news seems to have fallen off the page. What they are pushing now is idiotic. The EPA (not all bad) has done pretty well pushing increased gas mileage, and adding special equipment to cars to cut emissions, pushing use for cleaner coal in the generation process, expanding solar, and wind generation projects, burning oil with low sulfur content, and other processes at which they have done quite well. Banning CO2 is idiotic on the face of it, green things and trees would die, and people and animals would die. What a stupid idea. And how could we help them to do what they really want to do? Well we could stop breathing and die, but I am not ready to take that drastic an action. > global warming, I'm pretty mad about global warming. Are you mad about it too, or are you angry that you may have to change your life style to reduce the impact? I'll do all I can do without actually dieing for them to succeed. > government takeover of banks, manufacturing, lending institutions, I'm angry that the people who profited from creating the problem got to stay out of jail, what are you angry about? Same thing. The crooks are still out of jail, and some of them still work for the government. So go figure. > and now the threat of taking public lands, Perhaps you can explain this. Not so much a threat as it is to nationalize land east of the Rocky Mountains from the Oregon border to Arizona. The government presently owns half of Utah as it is, and Utah is using public domain to get some of it back. Why does Obama want all of that land? Answer in part: Oil, coal, gold, uranium, silver, copper, other valuable minerals, and perhaps even diamonds. > founding a private army, I agree, Blackwater should not be paid by the government, nor should it be allowed to operate within the United States. Wasn't that a Republican privatization" program? Obama's army is only now being formed, independent of any armed forces, and just as well equipped and supported. All to deal with "emergencies" he says. How about shooting Americans who disagree with him dead? Constitutionally he cant use the regular military services to kill Americans. But his own private army could.......and probably will. > taking over energy production, Right, Enron knew how to run energy companies. Enron was never more than a paper organization. Energy is produced by coal, oil, solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal power generation, and nuclear power plants. Cap N Trade along with socialist tendencies could put them all under Obama's thumb, and protected by his army. > seizing guns and disarming Americans, Are you complaining about taking guns from the militia that was planning on killing cops? Or something else? Same thing the NRA is worried about, disarming Americans so they cannot defend themselves against Obama's private goons. > socialist acts in violation of the constitution, Okay, so long as we can continue to have socialist acts that are allowed by the Constitution. Afraid only the supreme court can set constitutional rights straight. If they don't, Obama can bug dance all he wants, do anything he wants, until he loses majority support of congress. > President Bush has no chance to be anywhere near top dog in generating anger. See, we agree. President Bush doesn't do a radio show to generate anger by spewing vitriol, I think someone like Rush would be the top dog in that category. Rush does pretty good all right, but it is Beck who gets 4 million viewers when he speaks. One thing about Rush though, I don't like his style, but he does research his subjects well. Rarely will you find him misquoting, or messing up with numbers. For not being a news man, he is a pretty fair researcher. > > And remember, a lot of what started the Civil War is happening now in different forms. Yes, the South wanted to perpetuate physical slavery, now it is economic slavery. Slavery according to souther papers who called it Norther Aggression, they were upset by two points: 1. Unfair inactments by congress against the economies of the south. 2. Union ships blockading southern ports to stop them from selling their produce to foreign countries at a better price. It seems the north did not have the economical resources found in the south, and they were afraid the south would use foreign trade surpluses to arm themselves for war.. > How much will people take before they get angrier? > How much will the states take before they put their foot down, and put government in it's constitutional place? We could go on for a long time on this one item. How many of the Constitutional Amendments are you willing to accept? How many of the Supreme Court decisions are you willing to accept? Any that do not negate the original. Any that uphold the constitution. > > Don David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100411/f0a7195d/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 11 22:41:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:41:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> <210BFB05-6B05-48D4-B09A-D828C799E8AC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC2B277.000035.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Provocative thoughts and interactions here. I just love it. Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up national sovereignty. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 4/10/2010 10:34:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Very interesting. There has been much talk about the Citizens United case being one that brings lots of republicans and democrats together around their jointly held belief that the US is better off if multinational corporations can't just out right buy elections. I'm not yet convinced the republicans are willing to work together on anything just yet but it is possible. Katie On Apr 10, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm currently reading the Thomas Friedman book, The World is Flat. > It's a > great book and I just read about how globalization could reshuffle > politics, > page 257: > > Think about it: Social conservatives from the right wing of the > Republican party, who do not like globalization or closer > integration with > the world because it brings too many foreigners and foreign > cultural mores > into America, might align themselves with unions from the left wing > of the > Democratic party, who don't like globalization for the way it > facilitates > the outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. They might be called the > Wall Party > and militate for more friction and fat everywhere. Let's face it: > Republican cultural conservatives have much more in common with the > steelworkers of Youngstown, Ohio, the farmers of rural China, and the > mullahs of central Saudi Arabia, who would also like more walls, > than they > do with investment bankers on Wall Street or service workers linked > to the > global economy in Palo Alto, who have been enriched by the > flattening of the > world. > Meanwhile, the business wing of the Republican Party, which > believes in > free trade, deregulation, more integration, and lower taxes - > everything > that would flattent he world even more - may end up aligning itself > with the > social liberals of the Democratic Party, many of whom are East > Coast or West > Coast global service industry workers. They might also be joined by > Hollywood and other entertainment workers. All of them are huge > beneficiaries of the flat world. They might be called the Web > Party, whose > main platform would be to promote more global integration. Many > residents > of Manhattan and Palo Alto have more interests in common with the > people of > Shanghai and Bangalore than they do with the residents of > Youngstown or > Topeka. In short, in a flat world, we are likely to see many social > liberals, white-collar global service industry workers, and Wall > Street > types driven together, and many social conservatives, white-collar > local > service industry workers, and labor unions driven together. > > I thought it was an interesting concept and thinking about how I > would align > myself gave me lots to think about. > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run > again, Tea > Party claims victory > >> I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a >> Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question >> people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was >> whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the >> incumbent people said he was the man for them. >> People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. >> >> But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is >> likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. >> >> Katie >> >> >> On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >>> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. >>> This >>> election will probably be the opposite. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Bob Browning wrote: >>>> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with >>>> 65% of >>>> the vote last time. >>>> >>>> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" >>>> browning >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>>>> little to do >>>>> with it. >>>>> >>>>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>>>> her state, >>>>> is dead meat anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>> >>>>> From: Adam Mayer >>>>> >>>>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>>>> again, Tea >>>>> Party claims victory >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> --- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100411/32585f25/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 00:30:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:30:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Bob, average of ten polls taken in his state- - -poles included D & R, and somehow that looks like a huge turnaround of support. Meanwhile, other stuff keeps popping up. Apparently the Kenya National Assembly does not know that Obama was born in Hawaii. This recent communication just arrived: The Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010 has just leaked out that Obama was born in Kenya Posted by John Carlson on April 11, 2010 at 9:23pm. The Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010 has just leaked out that Obama was born in Kenya: Page 31: ....?If America was living in a situation where they feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of America? It is because they did away with exclusion.?....... See attached PDF Tags: assembly, born, in, Kenya, obama, says Attachments: Kenya.pdf, 334 KB Kenya.pdf, 334 KB Replies to This Discussion Permalink Reply by David M Harvey 2 hours ago It does not matter if Obama was born in the USA, his dad was of British and Kenyan nationality, so therefore, according to Article 2, Seciton 1, BHO is not a Natural Born Citizen. He is not eligible for the office of President of the US, all the people he has appointed are not constitutionally appointed, all laws (e.g. Universal Health Care Bill, Cap and Trade, and so forth) and executive orders and treaties he has made are unconstitutional, because he is an imposter and traitor to the United States of America. Permalink Reply by John Carlson 1 hour ago Correct. Most of know that. But many are hung up on place of birth and this is the nail in the coffin on that issue as this comes straight from the Kenya government and is part of their official record. Not ONLY is he just not eligible to be POTUS, but the mere fact he was in fact born in Kenya makes him an illegal alien. His mother was not of legal age to pass her citizenship to him at the time of his birth and there is no known record of him ever applying for citizenship. So now this is no longer just an issue over being a natural born citizen that is being left open for debate with the obamabots, but he is now a known fraud that is a foreignor that needs to be deported if not tried for treason! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/098d2976/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 02:08:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 02:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Apparently the Kenya National Assembly does not know > that Obama was born in Hawaii. This recent communication > just arrived: > > The Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010 has just > leaked out that Obama was born in Kenya > > Page 31: > > ....?If America was living in a situation where they > feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty > state or nation, how could a young man born here in > Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the > President of America? It is because they did away with > exclusion.?....... > > See attached PDF ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< For those wanting to see the whole document so they can read the quote above in context, it can be found at: http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/downloads/tenth_forth_sess/Hansard/RDRAFT25.03P.pdf I hardly see it as a smoking gun. In fact, I don't even see any proof in the claims that are being made. There's less proof in them saying he was born there during some internal meeting than there is in the birth certificate that's been provided and authenticated or the birth announcement in the Hawaiian newspaper (which would be amazingly fortuitous, don't you think). http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > It does not matter if Obama was born in the USA, his dad was of > British and Kenyan nationality, so therefore, according to Article > 2, Section 1, BHO is not a Natural Born Citizen. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It matters not. His mother is a citizen of the US and therefore "BHO" is too, upon birth, regardless of where that birth took place. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > He is not eligible for the office of President of the US, all the > people he has appointed are not constitutionally appointed, all laws > (e.g. Universal Health Care Bill, Cap and Trade, and so forth) and > executive orders and treaties he has made are unconstitutional, > because he is an imposter and traitor to the United States of > America. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Except for that annoying little bit of law that was signed that stipulated that he was in fact eligible. http://www.caller.com/news/2009/aug/01/us-president-turns-out-to-be-american/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/house-to-consider-counter_n_245741.html House Resolution 593 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:hr593ih.txt.pdf "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii;" It passed with a vote of 378 to 0. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Correct. Most of know that. But many are hung up on place of birth > and this is the nail in the coffin on that issue as this comes > straight from the Kenya government and is part of their official > record. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And, it's a big, stinking pile of irrelevance. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not ONLY is he just not eligible to be POTUS, but the mere fact he > was in fact born in Kenya makes him an illegal alien. His mother was > not of legal age to pass her citizenship to him at the time of his > birth and there is no known record of him ever applying for > citizenship. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< There would be no known record because he was a citizen the moment he was born. US law a) says nothing about the mother's age being a factor, and b) she was over the age of 18 (a few months shy of 19 actually) when he was born. There's so much silliness it even got its own Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories Jeff From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 12 07:29:49 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 07:29:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC2B277.000035.02624@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> <210BFB05-6B05-48D4-B09A-D828C799E8AC@verizon.net> <4BC2B277.000035.02624@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3E382103057B49DEBA23663DDEA12DE4@JeffVAIO> Don, I know some of the things that concern me, but I don't understand your reply, "Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up national sovereignty." What do you mean by "national sovereignty"? Marian PS. I also wonder why your grovenet posts are encapsulated in an attachment, when everyone else's are visible as 'normal' e-mail. Does anyone know? -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:41 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again,Tea Party claims victory Provocative thoughts and interactions here. I just love it. Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up national sovereignty. Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 10:34 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory > Very interesting. > There has been much talk about the Citizens United case being one > that brings lots of republicans and democrats together around their > jointly held belief that the US is better off if multinational > corporations can't just out right buy elections. > I'm not yet convinced the republicans are willing to work together on > anything just yet but it is possible. > > Katie > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I'm currently reading the Thomas Friedman book, The World is Flat. >> It's a >> great book and I just read about how globalization could reshuffle >> politics, >> page 257: >> >> Think about it: Social conservatives from the right wing of the >> Republican party, who do not like globalization or closer >> integration with >> the world because it brings too many foreigners and foreign >> cultural mores >> into America, might align themselves with unions from the left wing >> of the >> Democratic party, who don't like globalization for the way it >> facilitates >> the outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. They might be called the >> Wall Party >> and militate for more friction and fat everywhere. Let's face it: >> Republican cultural conservatives have much more in common with the >> steelworkers of Youngstown, Ohio, the farmers of rural China, and the >> mullahs of central Saudi Arabia, who would also like more walls, >> than they >> do with investment bankers on Wall Street or service workers linked >> to the >> global economy in Palo Alto, who have been enriched by the >> flattening of the >> world. >> Meanwhile, the business wing of the Republican Party, which >> believes in >> free trade, deregulation, more integration, and lower taxes - >> everything >> that would flattent he world even more - may end up aligning itself >> with the >> social liberals of the Democratic Party, many of whom are East >> Coast or West >> Coast global service industry workers. They might also be joined by >> Hollywood and other entertainment workers. All of them are huge >> beneficiaries of the flat world. They might be called the Web >> Party, whose >> main platform would be to promote more global integration. Many >> residents >> of Manhattan and Palo Alto have more interests in common with the >> people of >> Shanghai and Bangalore than they do with the residents of >> Youngstown or >> Topeka. In short, in a flat world, we are likely to see many social >> liberals, white-collar global service industry workers, and Wall >> Street >> types driven together, and many social conservatives, white-collar >> local >> service industry workers, and labor unions driven together. >> >> I thought it was an interesting concept and thinking about how I >> would align >> myself gave me lots to think about. >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Katie Allnutt" >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >> again, Tea >> Party claims victory >> >>> I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a >>> Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question >>> people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was >>> whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the >>> incumbent people said he was the man for them. >>> People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. >>> >>> But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is >>> likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> >>> On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>>> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. >>>> This >>>> election will probably be the opposite. >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Bob Browning wrote: >>>>> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with >>>>> 65% of >>>>> the vote last time. >>>>> >>>>> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" >>>>> browning >>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>>>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>>>>> little to do >>>>>> with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>>>>> her state, >>>>>> is dead meat anyway. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don >>>>>> >>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Adam Mayer >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>>>>> again, Tea >>>>>> Party claims victory >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 07:53:25 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 07:53:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Absolutely insane . . . . . Message-ID: <4BC333E5.2000006@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/513a4db5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/513a4db5/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: time_logo_101.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4184 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/513a4db5/attachment.jpg From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 08:05:39 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:05:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Absolutely insane . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BC333E5.2000006@jurislex.com> References: <4BC333E5.2000006@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <000f01cada51$9d969ca0$d8c3d5e0$@net> Did Soros buy a Cotton farm TOO? U.S. Ready to Finance Oil Drilling in Brazil EFE News Services 8/5/2009 The U.S. government is prepared to provide up to $10 billion in loans to finance the development of massive hydrocarbon reserves off Brazil's coast, a Brazilian official said Wednesday. President Barack Obama's national security adviser, Gen. James Jones, discussed the matter with officials this week during a visit to the South American country, Brazilian Planning Minister Paulo Bernardo da Silva told reporters. He said the U.S. Export-Import Bank already has signed a letter of intent in that regard with Brazilian state oil company Petrobras. The loan is equal in value to a similar credit line agreed to with the China Development Bank, also for exploiting Brazil's "pre-salt" area, so-named because the estimated 80 billion barrels of high-quality crude in that new oil frontier lie far beneath the ocean floor under layers of rock and an unstable salt formation. Under the agreement with the Chinese state bank, finalized during Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's visit to Beijing in May, Brazil can repay the loan facility with oil as opposed to cash. Somehow this is finally making it into the news. But it has been going on for some time. What is amazing is how our watchdog media neglected to mention any possible motive for Mr. Obama's surprising double standard. But we think we have a clue. >From something we posted almost exactly one year ago, from Bloomberg : Soros hedge fund invests $811m to buy Petrobras stake August 15, 2008 London: Billionaire investor George Soros bought an $811 million stake in Petroleo Brasileiro (Petrobras) in the second quarter, making the Brazilian state-controlled oil company his investment fund's largest holding. As of June 30, the stake in Petrobras, as the Rio de Janeiro-based oil producer is known, made up 22 per cent of the $3.68 billion of stocks and American depositary receipts held by Soros Fund Management, according to a filing with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. Petrobras has since slumped 28 per cent. In November, Petrobras announced the discovery of Tupi, a field with as much as 8 billion barrels of reserves, making it the largest find in the Americas since 1976. "Petrobras has something that other oil companies don't have: oil - lots of it and they're going to find more," said Ricardo Kob-ayashi, equity fund manager with UBS Pactual in Rio de Janeiro. Tupi is part of a new deepwater offshore region known as the pre-salt that may contain as much as 50 billion barrels, according to Peter Wells, oil analyst with the UK's Neftex Petroleum Consultants. The drop in Petrobras' US-traded common shares since June 30 would have reduced the value of Soros's disclosed stake by $235 million. Soros Fund Management didn't report holding any Petrobras shares at the end of the first quarter. It did disclose much smaller stakes in the Brazilian oil company during 2007, including 150,000 depositary shares, with a market value of about $17.3 million at December 31. The hedge fund company also had calls on another 35,000 shares at December 31. We certainly have learned that Mr. Obama is good at rewarding those who put him into office. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 08:48:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:48:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> <210BFB05-6B05-48D4-B09A-D828C799E8AC@verizon.net> <4BC2B277.000035.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <3E382103057B49DEBA23663DDEA12DE4@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BC340C6.00000D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Marian. Last things first, my email address is Comcast, but I find Incredimail2 far easier to use. It seems that the format of my emails are set by the programs, but I would like to change the format to plain text if I can. Does anyone else use these email programs who can inform me how to change the format to text? Finally, by giving up "national sovereignty" I mean turning the way America runs over by degrees to a larger world power. When America permits foreigners, like the small arms treaty, to dictate what America does, how Americans view our constitution, we give away a piece of our sovereignty. Small arms treaty is just an example to illustrate the point and not yet binding on America. But the gun grabbers are out there and they are determined to disarm us. Presently Americans are not bound by treaties signed by our president, or by any other bureaucrat, but it seems that eventually we might be held accountable by our own government for maintaining in our own small ways, independence from foreign powers. Thank you again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/12/2010 7:26:30 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory Don, I know some of the things that concern me, but I don't understand your reply, "Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up national sovereignty." What do you mean by "national sovereignty"? Marian PS. I also wonder why your grovenet posts are encapsulated in an attachment, when everyone else's are visible as 'normal' e-mail. Does anyone know? -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:41 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again,Tea Party claims victory Provocative thoughts and interactions here. I just love it. Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up national sovereignty. Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 10:34 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory > Very interesting. > There has been much talk about the Citizens United case being one > that brings lots of republicans and democrats together around their > jointly held belief that the US is better off if multinational > corporations can't just out right buy elections. > I'm not yet convinced the republicans are willing to work together on > anything just yet but it is possible. > > Katie > > On Apr 10, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I'm currently reading the Thomas Friedman book, The World is Flat. >> It's a >> great book and I just read about how globalization could reshuffle >> politics, >> page 257: >> >> Think about it: Social conservatives from the right wing of the >> Republican party, who do not like globalization or closer >> integration with >> the world because it brings too many foreigners and foreign >> cultural mores >> into America, might align themselves with unions from the left wing >> of the >> Democratic party, who don't like globalization for the way it >> facilitates >> the outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. They might be called the >> Wall Party >> and militate for more friction and fat everywhere. Let's face it: >> Republican cultural conservatives have much more in common with the >> steelworkers of Youngstown, Ohio, the farmers of rural China, and the >> mullahs of central Saudi Arabia, who would also like more walls, >> than they >> do with investment bankers on Wall Street or service workers linked >> to the >> global economy in Palo Alto, who have been enriched by the >> flattening of the >> world. >> Meanwhile, the business wing of the Republican Party, which >> believes in >> free trade, deregulation, more integration, and lower taxes - >> everything >> that would flattent he world even more - may end up aligning itself >> with the >> social liberals of the Democratic Party, many of whom are East >> Coast or West >> Coast global service industry workers. They might also be joined by >> Hollywood and other entertainment workers. All of them are huge >> beneficiaries of the flat world. They might be called the Web >> Party, whose >> main platform would be to promote more global integration. Many >> residents >> of Manhattan and Palo Alto have more interests in common with the >> people of >> Shanghai and Bangalore than they do with the residents of >> Youngstown or >> Topeka. In short, in a flat world, we are likely to see many social >> liberals, white-collar global service industry workers, and Wall >> Street >> types driven together, and many social conservatives, white-collar >> local >> service industry workers, and labor unions driven together. >> >> I thought it was an interesting concept and thinking about how I >> would align >> myself gave me lots to think about. >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Katie Allnutt" >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >> again, Tea >> Party claims victory >> >>> I think the problem is not R or D. There was an interview with a >>> Democrat running for congress in Tennessee and the only question >>> people were repeatedly asking him when he went out campaigning was >>> whether he was the incumbent. Once he say he was trying to oust the >>> incumbent people said he was the man for them. >>> People have not forgotten how mad they were with the Bush regime yet. >>> >>> But since there are more D's in office this time around, yes it is >>> likely that R's will pick up quite a few seats. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> >>> On Apr 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>>> Last election anyone running as a Democrat was going to do well. >>>> This >>>> election will probably be the opposite. >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Bob Browning wrote: >>>>> Interesting response when I understand (believe?) he won with >>>>> 65% of >>>>> the vote last time. >>>>> >>>>> bob "keep on guessing; who really knows 'til this November" >>>>> browning >>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> On 4/9/2010 9:45 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>>>> I think ignoring 78% of the people in his state had at least a >>>>>> little to do >>>>>> with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> When a congress person loses credibility with the people in his/ >>>>>> her state, >>>>>> is dead meat anyway. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don >>>>>> >>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Adam Mayer >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: 4/9/2010 11:59:30 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run >>>>>> again, Tea >>>>>> Party claims victory >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/877fca53/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 09:37:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 09:37:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Absolutely insane . . . . . References: <4BC333E5.2000006@jurislex.com> <000f01cada51$9d969ca0$d8c3d5e0$@net> Message-ID: <4BC34C5F.000010.04060@DON-B2514E06367> ROFLOL, if he did, it would be called a 'collective' not a farm. I wonder what he did with his shares in ACORN. Bet he bailed. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steven Date: 4/12/2010 8:06:18 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Absolutely insane . . . . . Did Soros buy a Cotton farm TOO? U.S. Ready to Finance Oil Drilling in Brazil EFE News Services 8/5/2009 The U.S. government is prepared to provide up to $10 billion in loans to finance the development of massive hydrocarbon reserves off Brazil's coast, a Brazilian official said Wednesday. President Barack Obama's national security adviser, Gen. James Jones, discussed the matter with officials this week during a visit to the South American country, Brazilian Planning Minister Paulo Bernardo da Silva told reporters. He said the U.S. Export-Import Bank already has signed a letter of intent in that regard with Brazilian state oil company Petrobras. The loan is equal in value to a similar credit line agreed to with the China Development Bank, also for exploiting Brazil's "pre-salt" area, so-named because the estimated 80 billion barrels of high-quality crude in that new oil frontier lie far beneath the ocean floor under layers of rock and an unstable salt formation. Under the agreement with the Chinese state bank, finalized during Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's visit to Beijing in May, Brazil can repay the loan facility with oil as opposed to cash. Somehow this is finally making it into the news. But it has been going on for some time. What is amazing is how our watchdog media neglected to mention any possible motive for Mr. Obama's surprising double standard. But we think we have a clue. >From something we posted almost exactly one year ago, from Bloomberg : Soros hedge fund invests $811m to buy Petrobras stake August 15, 2008 London: Billionaire investor George Soros bought an $811 million stake in Petroleo Brasileiro (Petrobras) in the second quarter, making the Brazilian state-controlled oil company his investment fund's largest holding. As of June 30, the stake in Petrobras, as the Rio de Janeiro-based oil producer is known, made up 22 per cent of the $3.68 billion of stocks and American depositary receipts held by Soros Fund Management, according to a filing with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. Petrobras has since slumped 28 per cent. In November, Petrobras announced the discovery of Tupi, a field with as much as 8 billion barrels of reserves, making it the largest find in the Americas since 1976. "Petrobras has something that other oil companies don't have: oil - lots of it and they're going to find more," said Ricardo Kob-ayashi, equity fund manager with UBS Pactual in Rio de Janeiro. Tupi is part of a new deepwater offshore region known as the pre-salt that may contain as much as 50 billion barrels, according to Peter Wells, oil analyst with the UK's Neftex Petroleum Consultants. The drop in Petrobras' US-traded common shares since June 30 would have reduced the value of Soros's disclosed stake by $235 million. Soros Fund Management didn't report holding any Petrobras shares at the end of the first quarter. It did disclose much smaller stakes in the Brazilian oil company during 2007, including 150,000 depositary shares, with a market value of about $17.3 million at December 31. The hedge fund company also had calls on another 35,000 shares at December 31. We certainly have learned that Mr. Obama is good at rewarding those who put him into office. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/802d6e01/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 10:10:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:10:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> Message-ID: <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> I don't know where he was born. Neither does the Hawaiian newspaper. Neither does congress. Fact is, none of the entities listed above have seen Obama's birth certificate, or a certified image of it. The photo shopped computer generated image (2002 document version generated in 2008) released to congress and the Internet contains one thing, and does not contain three other things, which indicate it is a fake. Others call it a forgery, but IMHO it is not a forgery as it is not signed or stamped by anyone. Were congress fooled by it? So how can anyone know for sure? The following comments supposes the the Kenya National Assembly does not know what they are talking about. But if one wrote an email to the Kenya government, one might be surprised that a representative will respond and verify the veracity of the pdf document. NOTE: I am aware that any pdf document can be altered to support a political viewpoint. We can huff and puff, but we will not see any official proof of where he was born unless Obama unseals it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 2:08:35 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Apparently the Kenya National Assembly does not know > that Obama was born in Hawaii. This recent communication > just arrived: > > The Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010 has just > leaked out that Obama was born in Kenya > > Page 31: > > ....?If America was living in a situation where they > feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty > state or nation, how could a young man born here in > Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the > President of America? It is because they did away with > exclusion.?....... > > See attached PDF ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< For those wanting to see the whole document so they can read the quote above in context, it can be found at: http://www.bunge.go ke/parliament/downloads/tenth_forth_sess/Hansard/RDRAFT25.03P.pdf I hardly see it as a smoking gun. In fact, I don't even see any proof in the claims that are being made. There's less proof in them saying he was born there during some internal meeting than there is in the birth certificate that's been provided and authenticated or the birth announcement in the Hawaiian newspaper (which would be amazingly fortuitous, don't you think). http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > It does not matter if Obama was born in the USA, his dad was of > British and Kenyan nationality, so therefore, according to Article > 2, Section 1, BHO is not a Natural Born Citizen. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It matters not. His mother is a citizen of the US and therefore "BHO" is too, upon birth, regardless of where that birth took place. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > He is not eligible for the office of President of the US, all the > people he has appointed are not constitutionally appointed, all laws > (e.g. Universal Health Care Bill, Cap and Trade, and so forth) and > executive orders and treaties he has made are unconstitutional, > because he is an imposter and traitor to the United States of > America. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Except for that annoying little bit of law that was signed that stipulated that he was in fact eligible. http://www.caller com/news/2009/aug/01/us-president-turns-out-to-be-american/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/house-to-consider-counter_n_245741 html House Resolution 593 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:hr593ih.txt.pdf "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii;" It passed with a vote of 378 to 0. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Correct. Most of know that. But many are hung up on place of birth > and this is the nail in the coffin on that issue as this comes > straight from the Kenya government and is part of their official > record. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And, it's a big, stinking pile of irrelevance. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not ONLY is he just not eligible to be POTUS, but the mere fact he > was in fact born in Kenya makes him an illegal alien. His mother was > not of legal age to pass her citizenship to him at the time of his > birth and there is no known record of him ever applying for > citizenship. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< There would be no known record because he was a citizen the moment he was born. US law a) says nothing about the mother's age being a factor, and b) she was over the age of 18 (a few months shy of 19 actually) when he was born. There's so much silliness it even got its own Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/df5fa7ab/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 10:21:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:21:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Yes David. I agree. If you are a senior like I am, you have a lot more to worry about: ========== FACTS IN THE BILL, AND ON THE RECORD. Seniors get screwed by Obamacare By John Bender Web posted April 12, 2010 For Americans who are on Medicare, about to be on Medicare or who have a close Family member on it should be outraged by the Obamacare law the national Socialists crammed down our throats. All Americans are going to suffer under This travesty but seniors are among the first to take hits in service and Cost. If you're not on Medicare, or don't have a mother, father, grandmother, Grandfather, aunt or uncle, sister, brother, or cousin, on Medicare, you may Not be interested in this column. Those of you who do should be very interested In how seniors are being screwed by this law. The following cuts hit seniors starting this year and in the next two years. But these are just the start of cuts and higher costs. More Draconian cuts to Service and quality along with higher costs are scheduled to hit after the Election year of 2012. Most people don't remember the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act of 1988. Leftists in Congress passed a change to Medicare that for most seniors was Going to add little or no benefit but increase the cost of Medicare for Everyone. When seniors realized what was really in the law they rose up and Demanded the law be repealed. At one point a group of irate seasoned citizens chased Dan Rostenkowski, Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, to his car and surrounded it And rocked it until the police had to come rescue him. Not long after that Congress repealed the crummy law. Today's seniors may want to keep those seniors in mind as they read what the Obamacare law is inflicting on them. Bad laws can be repealed with enough Grassroots effort. Highlights of how Obamacare screws seniors: 2010 Medicare cuts to inpatient psych hospitals (7/1/10) Medicare Advantage cuts begin Medicare cuts to home health begin Wealthier seniors ($85K/$170K) begin paying higher Part D premiums (not indexed For inflation in Parts B/D) Medicare reimbursement cuts when seniors use diagnostic imaging like MRIs, CT Scans, etc. Medicare cuts begin to ambulance services, ASCs, diagnostic labs, and durable Medical equipment Impose new annual tax on brand name pharmaceutical companies which will raise Drug prices Americans begin paying premiums for federal long-term care insurance (CLASS Act) 2011 Prohibition on Medicare payments to new physician-owned hospitals Seniors prohibited from purchasing power wheelchairs unless they first rent for 13 months New Medicare cuts to long-term care hospitals begin (7/1/11) 2012 Additional Medicare cuts to hospitals and cuts to nursing homes and inpatient Rehab facilities begin (FY12) New tax on all private health insurance policies to pay for comp. Eff. Research (plan years beginning FY12) John Bender is a freelance writer living in Dallas. -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/11/2010 7:36:45 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men Perhaps, as you say, "the more the government tries to help the worse it seems to get." But only the federal government can remove the tax incentives to move production overseas, they control the tax code. Only the federal government can negotiate with China over the exchange rate, which is important because it isn't set by market forces. Only the federal government can prosecute fraud in the international and interstate banking system, and restore the laws intended to prohibit the fraudulent actions. Only the federal government can regulate interstate mortgage companies and international investors in the arena of bankruptcy. If we prevent the federal government from acting, we leave those problems in place. And I would point out, there are some well paid people who seriously want those issues left unchanged. I like the free market. I would like to see the free market replace what we have now, because we don't have a free market in very many areas. David On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I don't trust the stock market, that's why I don't own stocks and I'm very careful about how I invest my money. And I agree that the stock market cannot be used for measuring the true state of our economy. But people do use it as a focal point measurement of how the economy is doing. Last year I remember hearing on some business program, the host proudly claiming that the economic crisis is over because the stock market is climbing again. I personally don't see that it is, business are still downsizing, closing, moving out of the state, high unemployment, salaries being frozen (been there) and cut (just happened a few months ago). > > This much I can gather, the more the government tries to help the worse it seems to get. > > Adam _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c9628409/attachment-0001.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 10:27:47 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:27:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know where he was born. Neither does the Hawaiian > newspaper. Neither does congress. Fact is, none of the entities > listed above have seen Obama's birth certificate, or a certified > image of it. > > The photo shopped computer generated image (2002 document version > generated in 2008) released to congress and the Internet contains > one thing, and does not contain three other things, which indicate > it is a fake. > > Others call it a forgery, but IMHO it is not a forgery as it is not > signed or stamped by anyone. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Clearly you haven't seen the photographs of the original that were released then. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The following comments supposes the the Kenya National Assembly does > not know what they are talking about. But if one wrote an email to > the Kenya government, one might be surprised that a representative > will respond and verify the veracity of the pdf document. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What will they supply as verification to support the claims? Will that data be as official and documentable as the birth certificate that's successfully endured plenty of scrutiny (despite the wingnut claims to the contrary)? Will the data the Kenyan official provide be more readily accepted even though it lacks adequate provenance? I suspect most already know the answers to these questions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > NOTE: I am aware that any pdf document can be altered to support a > political viewpoint. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's not the PDF I'm concerned about. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > We can huff and puff, but we will not see any official proof of > where he was born unless Obama unseals it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< We have already seen it. You refuse to open your eyes. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 10:43:26 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:43:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c4405c40/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bulletinlogo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42782 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c4405c40/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c4405c40/attachment.jpe From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Apr 12 11:08:43 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:08:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run again, Tea Party claims victory In-Reply-To: <4BC340C6.00000D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <9D0B74D5-F8A4-414A-A850-05FB77E7A24D@verizon.net> <48F88750DEAB4BB5839BBC1DF8169C0C@JeffVAIO> <210BFB05-6B05-48D4-B09A-D828C799E8AC@verizon.net> <4BC2B277.000035.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <3E382103057B49DEBA23663DDEA12DE4@JeffVAIO> <4BC340C6.00000D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4694F544-28D3-497C-B875-1BE4210B3DA0@verizon.net> One correction that should be noted: When the senate ratifies a treaty, the provisions in the treaty become law in the US. So your statement that Americans are not presently bound by treaties 'signed by the president or any other bureaucrat' is technically correct, it is only correct until the treaty is ratified by the senate. It is common for treaties to be signed by one person (president or bureaucrat) as the first step, then it goes on to the senate. Omitting the consequences of the second step is misleading. I'm sure you don't want to mislead people into believing that Americans are not bound by any treaties. So, if you, in your own small way, try to maintain your independence from foreign powers by breaking US law, yes, your own government may hold you accountable. Just as they always have. Katie On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:48 AM, donkelly wrote: > > ...snip... > > > Presently Americans are not bound by treaties signed by our > president, or by > any other bureaucrat, but it seems that eventually we might be held > accountable by our own government for maintaining in our own small > ways, > independence from foreign powers. > > > > Thank you again. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Marian Cakarnis > > Date: 4/12/2010 7:26:30 AM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Representative Stupak decides not to run > again, Tea > Party claims victory > > > > Don, > > > > I know some of the things that concern me, but I don't understand your > > reply, "Part of the fear of a flat earth has to involve giving up > national > > sovereignty." What do you mean by "national sovereignty"? > > > > Marian > > > ...remainder of old posts deleted to save bandwidth. K From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 12 11:13:52 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:13:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Earlier, Don wrote in an e-mail this: "It does not matter if Obama was born in the USA, his dad was of British and Kenyan nationality, so therefore, according to Article 2, Seciton 1, BHO is not a Natural Born Citizen. He is not eligible for the office of President of the US, all the people he has appointed are not constitutionally appointed, all laws (e.g. Universal Health Care Bill, Cap and Trade, and so forth) and executive orders and treaties he has made are unconstitutional, because he is an imposter and traitor to the United States of America. Permalink Reply by John Carlson 1 hour ago Correct. Most of know that. But many are hung up on place of birth and this is the nail in the coffin on that issue as this comes straight from the Kenya government and is part of their official record. Not ONLY is he just not eligible to be POTUS, but the mere fact he was in fact born in Kenya makes him an illegal alien." Hmmmm...Obama's a traitor? If he's not a citizen of the US, how can he be a traitor? Traitors are citizens who commit treason. Well, be that as it may, we now have this charge on the Grovenet record. I suggest that we do actually do something about it. But what? Well, here's the FBI's e-mail for the Portland office: portland at ic.fbi.gov I bet they'd want to know asap. The US Secret Service ought to know, don't you think? They can be contacted at this number in Portland: 503-326-2162. I bet all those US citizens working at the White House would also want to know that their alleged boss is an illegal alien and a traitor. They can be alerted by going to the online form to be found at: www.whitehouse.gov/contact This is just for starters...but I bet they'd all be interested in knowing what Don thinks. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:10 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. I don't know where he was born. Neither does the Hawaiian newspaper. Neither does congress. Fact is, none of the entities listed above have seen Obama's birth certificate, or a certified image of it. The photo shopped computer generated image (2002 document version generated in 2008) released to congress and the Internet contains one thing, and does not contain three other things, which indicate it is a fake. Others call it a forgery, but IMHO it is not a forgery as it is not signed or stamped by anyone. Were congress fooled by it? So how can anyone know for sure? The following comments supposes the the Kenya National Assembly does not know what they are talking about. But if one wrote an email to the Kenya government, one might be surprised that a representative will respond and verify the veracity of the pdf document. NOTE: I am aware that any pdf document can be altered to support a political viewpoint. We can huff and puff, but we will not see any official proof of where he was born unless Obama unseals it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 2:08:35 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Apparently the Kenya National Assembly does not know > that Obama was born in Hawaii. This recent communication > just arrived: > > The Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010 has just > leaked out that Obama was born in Kenya > > Page 31: > > ...."If America was living in a situation where they > feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty > state or nation, how could a young man born here in > Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the > President of America? It is because they did away with > exclusion."....... > > See attached PDF ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< For those wanting to see the whole document so they can read the quote above in context, it can be found at: http://www.bunge.go ke/parliament/downloads/tenth_forth_sess/Hansard/RDRAFT25.03P.pdf I hardly see it as a smoking gun. In fact, I don't even see any proof in the claims that are being made. There's less proof in them saying he was born there during some internal meeting than there is in the birth certificate that's been provided and authenticated or the birth announcement in the Hawaiian newspaper (which would be amazingly fortuitous, don't you think). http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > It does not matter if Obama was born in the USA, his dad was of > British and Kenyan nationality, so therefore, according to Article > 2, Section 1, BHO is not a Natural Born Citizen. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It matters not. His mother is a citizen of the US and therefore "BHO" is too, upon birth, regardless of where that birth took place. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > He is not eligible for the office of President of the US, all the > people he has appointed are not constitutionally appointed, all laws > (e.g. Universal Health Care Bill, Cap and Trade, and so forth) and > executive orders and treaties he has made are unconstitutional, > because he is an imposter and traitor to the United States of > America. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Except for that annoying little bit of law that was signed that stipulated that he was in fact eligible. http://www.caller com/news/2009/aug/01/us-president-turns-out-to-be-american/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/house-to-consider-counter_n_245741 html House Resolution 593 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:hr593ih.txt.pdf "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii;" It passed with a vote of 378 to 0. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Correct. Most of know that. But many are hung up on place of birth > and this is the nail in the coffin on that issue as this comes > straight from the Kenya government and is part of their official > record. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And, it's a big, stinking pile of irrelevance. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not ONLY is he just not eligible to be POTUS, but the mere fact he > was in fact born in Kenya makes him an illegal alien. His mother was > not of legal age to pass her citizenship to him at the time of his > birth and there is no known record of him ever applying for > citizenship. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< There would be no known record because he was a citizen the moment he was born. US law a) says nothing about the mother's age being a factor, and b) she was over the age of 18 (a few months shy of 19 actually) when he was born. There's so much silliness it even got its own Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 11:24:26 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:24:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I agree. If you are a senior like I am, you have a lot more to worry > about: > > ========== > > FACTS IN THE BILL, AND ON THE RECORD. > Seniors get screwed by Obamacare > > By John Bender > Web posted April 12, 2010 > > For Americans who are on Medicare, about to be on Medicare or > who have a close Family member on it [...] > > [snip of all the emotionally charged lead-in designed to get the > heartrate of the reader up so the nonsense details after it will > slip through their defenses unchecked] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Translated: I want my socialist program, but screw the rest of you if you want in on it too. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Most people don't remember the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act of > 1988. [...] > > At one point a group of irate seasoned citizens chased Dan > Rostenkowski, Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, to > his car and surrounded it and rocked it until the police had to come > rescue him. Not long after that Congress repealed the crummy law. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Interestingly, the post-mortem on the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act doesn't entirely agree with the author's assessment nor the position of the seniors at the time that protested it. http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/9/3/75.pdf Additionally, it wasn't just "socialist leftists" that thought the bill was a good idea. Then president Ronald Reagan, a model Republican, signed the bill into law. The "recollection" of the events involving Rostenkowski and the senior citizens is, at best, a fabrication of actual events. Here's video of what *actually* happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBHNRHJrs9k&feature=related Notice, no police cars and no rocking of his car. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 2010 > > - Medicare cuts to inpatient psych hospitals (7/1/10) > - Medicare Advantage cuts begin > - Medicare cuts to home health begin > - Wealthier seniors ($85K/$170K) begin paying higher Part D > premiums (not indexed for inflation in Parts B/D) > - Medicare reimbursement cuts when seniors use diagnostic imaging > like MRIs, CT Scans, etc. > - Medicare cuts begin to ambulance services, ASCs, diagnostic > labs, and durable medical equipment > - Impose new annual tax on brand name pharmaceutical companies > which will raise drug prices > - Americans begin paying premiums for federal long-term care > insurance (CLASS Act) > > 2011 > > - Prohibition on Medicare payments to new physician-owned > hospitals > - Seniors prohibited from purchasing power wheelchairs unless > they first rent for 13 months > - New Medicare cuts to long-term care hospitals begin (7/1/11) > > 2012 > > - Additional Medicare cuts to hospitals and cuts to nursing homes > and inpatient rehab facilities begin (FY12) > - New tax on all private health insurance policies to pay for > comp. eff. research (plan years beginning FY12) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So many claims, yet so little attribution of said claims to either independent reviews of the legislation or citing specific portions of the healthcare legislation that back up the claims. The long and short of it is, Mr. Bender is fishing. The truth is, had there not been changes made to the Medicare program, it would've suffered much more severe and debilitating changes to the point of being insolvent by 2017. http://www.smpresource.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HealthCareFraud/Medicare/M edicareTrusteesReport09.pdf >From Page 10: "Short-Range Results The HI trust fund is not adequately financed over the next 10 years. At the beginning of 2009 the assets of the HI trust fund were $321 billion and are projected to be exhausted during 2017, under the intermediate assumptions. The HI trust fund does not meet the short-range test of financial adequacy. Although the short-range financial status of the HI trust fund has not been considered satisfactory since 2003, the outlook has further deteriorated as a result of the current economic recession." Others have done much more long-term studies of the viability of Medicare and suggest an even more dire situation. http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st299 If there's anyone that ought to be angry about things it's my generation which will be funding *your* socialist benefits, but likely won't be able to take advantage of those same socialist benefits ourselves when we reach retirement age. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 11:29:50 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:29:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/43cf7c02/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 11:41:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:41:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original birth certificate. Most people including myself accept that, so it isn't news. Who else has seen it? Were they paid off to say what they said? Remember Obama has paid off several people (and organizations) on his congressional record to get their votes on a measure. Paying off supporters is not news either. Why is not the certificate number (FactCheck says so), blanked out on the Internet release form, issued in 1961? Seems like the sequence indicates it was issued some time after 1961. Seems that FactCheck is not above suspicion either. Check them out as well. And why was the certificate number blanked out on the government released Internet version? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 10:27:57 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know where he was born. Neither does the Hawaiian > newspaper. Neither does congress. Fact is, none of the entities > listed above have seen Obama's birth certificate, or a certified > image of it. > > The photo shopped computer generated image (2002 document version > generated in 2008) released to congress and the Internet contains > one thing, and does not contain three other things, which indicate > it is a fake. > > Others call it a forgery, but IMHO it is not a forgery as it is not > signed or stamped by anyone. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Clearly you haven't seen the photographs of the original that were released then. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The following comments supposes the the Kenya National Assembly does > not know what they are talking about. But if one wrote an email to > the Kenya government, one might be surprised that a representative > will respond and verify the veracity of the pdf document. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What will they supply as verification to support the claims? Will that data be as official and documentable as the birth certificate that's successfully endured plenty of scrutiny (despite the wingnut claims to the contrary)? Will the data the Kenyan official provide be more readily accepted even though it lacks adequate provenance? I suspect most already know the answers to these questions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > NOTE: I am aware that any pdf document can be altered to support a > political viewpoint. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's not the PDF I'm concerned about. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > We can huff and puff, but we will not see any official proof of > where he was born unless Obama unseals it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< We have already seen it. You refuse to open your eyes. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/891e7ccd/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 11:49:17 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:49:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/edadb533/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 11:56:42 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:56:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00f101cada71$e4d6c340$ae8449c0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Why is not the certificate number (FactCheck says so), blanked out > on the Internet release form, issued in 1961? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I can't even make sense of this question. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Seems like the sequence indicates it was issued some time after > 1961. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The sequence compared to what? From looking at the number I'm unable to drive any sort of "indication" from it as I don't have any other sequence numbers available to determine a pattern. What info are you privy to that you're using to make that leap of logic? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Seems that FactCheck is not above suspicion either. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No one should be above suspicion. They're far more credible than any of the wingnuts that keep flapping about a nothing subject like Obama's right to be POTUS. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Check them out as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yeah, I've heard the "theories" about fact check. I don't find any of them credible, let alone plausible. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And why was the certificate number blanked out on the government > released Internet version? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Already asked and answered at the link I supplied. I didn't really expect you to read it though. "The campaign then rushed to release the document, and the rush is responsible for the blacked-out certificate number. Says Shauna: '[We] couldn't get someone on the phone in Hawaii to tell us whether the number represented some secret information, and we erred on the side of blacking it out. Since then we've found out it's pretty irrelevant for the outside world.'" Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 12:03:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:03:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <00f801cada72$d6d65ca0$848315e0$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Don, I have looked through the entire document and I do not see any > where that it mentions our President. Interesting to read, but > irrelevant unless I missed something. Can you cite to me the page > on which it supports your assertion? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's page 10, but it's nothing more than a statement without any actual proof in it to back up the statement. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > On 4/12/2010 11:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > > OK, want more documentation, here is direct documentation from > > Africa. > > > > http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/downloads/tenth_forth_sess/Hansard/RDRAFT2 5.03P.pdf ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So, now Don is linking to the document *I* found and claiming it as documentation? Interesting! Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Apr 12 12:08:59 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:08:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBC Articles Message-ID: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> One sure way to keep her from running for president, http://tinyurl.com/ybo8yv3 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/eae2fd7a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=36417661 From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 12:18:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:18:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00f101cada71$e4d6c340$ae8449c0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Fact Check Discredited long ago. Tuesday, July 08, 2008 FactCheck.org Turns Left I had heard that the once-dependable FactCheck.org had gone left, falsely attacking Republican ads and providing cover for Democrats. I hadn't bothered to look at it, but, sadly, it appears to be true. Like snopes.com, FactCheck.org has bowled itself into the left gutter. Here's a recent example: The McCain campaign and the Republican National Committee both claim that Obama has voted 94 times ?for higher taxes.? We find that their count is padded. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 11:56:57 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Why is not the certificate number (FactCheck says so), blanked out > on the Internet release form, issued in 1961? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I can't even make sense of this question. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Seems like the sequence indicates it was issued some time after > 1961. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The sequence compared to what? From looking at the number I'm unable to drive any sort of "indication" from it as I don't have any other sequence numbers available to determine a pattern. What info are you privy to that you're using to make that leap of logic? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Seems that FactCheck is not above suspicion either. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No one should be above suspicion. They're far more credible than any of the wingnuts that keep flapping about a nothing subject like Obama's right to be POTUS. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Check them out as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yeah, I've heard the "theories" about fact check. I don't find any of them credible, let alone plausible. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And why was the certificate number blanked out on the government > released Internet version? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Already asked and answered at the link I supplied. I didn't really expect you to read it though. "The campaign then rushed to release the document, and the rush is responsible for the blacked-out certificate number. Says Shauna: '[We] couldn't get someone on the phone in Hawaii to tell us whether the number represented some secret information, and we erred on the side of blacking it out. Since then we've found out it's pretty irrelevant for the outside world.'" Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/efd2c5a7/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 12:23:55 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:23:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC3734B.6040708@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c699bde2/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 12:38:33 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:38:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <00f801cada72$d6d65ca0$848315e0$@com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> <00f801cada72$d6d65ca0$848315e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC376B9.9090500@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/9ee2f1c7/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 12 12:40:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:40:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00f101cada71$e4d6c340$ae8449c0$@com> <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2010, at 12:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > I hadn't > bothered to look at it, but, sadly, it appears to be true. This just says it all. This also says why I am dropping out of this conversation. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 12:40:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:40:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBCArticles References: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC3772D.00005D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Sho nuff Hoss. But wouldn't Hillary have to ditch some biases first, like anti gun, anti constitution, anti abortion, anti freedom, anti breathing, anti property rights, etc., then actually pass the bar exam before she could be a judge? Could Hillary even judge a dog show? (rhetorical question. Forget about it) Could another Obama payoff to supporters actually over ride the rule of competence and qualification? Oh, I know. It's been done before, so what else would be new? It seems MSNBC has actually reported on some big news. Where have they been hiding? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/12/2010 12:09:08 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBCArticles ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/a93e5451/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 12:42:13 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00f101cada71$e4d6c340$ae8449c0$@com> <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC37795.1020404@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/54883630/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 12:46:43 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:46:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC376B9.9090500@jurislex.com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> <00f801cada72$d6d65ca0$848315e0$@com> <4BC376B9.9090500@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <013401cada78$e1283600$a378a200$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Sorry, Jeff, but I see nothing on page 10 of the African Minutes > which Don (or you) reference relating to Obama's supposed Kenyan > birth!! Are you and I talking about the same thing?? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< My mistake, it's on page 31. "If America was living in a situation where they feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of America?" That's the tidbit that's being discussed. I don't personally find it at all compelling, factual, or relevant as there isn't anything available to corroborate this statement. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 12:50:02 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:50:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <013401cada78$e1283600$a378a200$@com> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC35BBE.8050801@jurislex.com> <4BC36177.00003F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC36B2D.6000500@jurislex.com> <00f801cada72$d6d65ca0$848315e0$@com> <4BC376B9.9090500@jurislex.com> <013401cada78$e1283600$a378a200$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3796A.6020408@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/09f4c6e1/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 12 12:58:26 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:58:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change of subject . . . . Message-ID: <4BC37B62.4070901@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/86c47f63/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/86c47f63/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/86c47f63/attachment.png From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 13:06:39 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:06:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC37795.1020404@jurislex.com> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00f101cada71$e4d6c340$ae8449c0$@com> <4BC371E2.000052.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC37795.1020404@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <014401cada7b$aa01fcd0$fe05f670$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Well, in the interests of my blood pressure, I have already agreed > to not link to climate change postings. Now, I will also be ignoring > Don's postings since it is clear he and I have a total breakdown > of trust as the the credibility of the Foxies of the world. Oh, > well, sooner or later I will be able to get some work done!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, I very well may need to as well as the constant unfounded rhetoric is not only hard to swallow, but time-consuming to refute (even as ridiculous is gets much of the time). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > On 4/12/2010 12:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > > Fact Check Discredited long ago. > Tuesday, July 08, 2008 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yeah, Don, I can google just as well as you can. However, I don't have any issues linking to the page you're copying and pasting from to support your argument so that everyone can read the quoted bits in context with the rest of the article. http://albanymediabias.blogspot.com/2008/07/factcheckorg-turns-left.html The article does *nothing* to discredit factcheck.org. In fact, I find that it actually proves their point -- those looking to discredit will reach to great lengths to make things mean the things they want/need them to mean to support their position. Further, I find the absolute lack of info discrediting factcheck.org to be limited to a single article to be very telling. Even if factcheck.org were successfully discredited in this one instance, it does not mean that everything else on the site is automatically discredited or of no value. Nor does it mean that anything in the future will be invalid, incorrect, or of no value for those looking to get the facts on some sort of political spin. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 13:20:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:20:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Well Grove Gang, I won't bug dance around the label 'socialist' because truthfully that is what social security is. The first recipient of social security retired one day after a social security withholding of 4 cents was taken from her paycheck. Her lump sum payoff was 17 cents. Not a bad payoff percentage wise. Most of us will not receive that percentage in benefits. I have paid into social security since I first received a payroll check. That was with Bank of America in 1954. Now 56 years later I draw monthly benefits not enough to retire on. Since I still work full time, I get to pay double taxes on the withholdings, once as income taxes on earnings, and again as taxes on my social security benefits.......double taxation clear to be seen. Yet I fear for the younger people who have to pay for others, and there may be no benefits left when retirement age is reached. Then there is the specter of government robbing the social security trust fund, leaving us old and young with no income at all. Look for government to continue with greedy eyes looking for any cache of money they can seize to support their self enrichment schemes. I believe, but cannot prove, that the trust fund has been robbed before, and now the government has no money left, how will they repay what they took? Borrow it from China? Disgusted don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/12/2010 11:30:06 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men Thanks, Jeff, from one of the socialists!! bob "I'm getting mine now [at least for a while longer]" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/12/2010 11:24 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: If there's anyone that ought to be angry about things it's my generation which will be funding *your* socialist benefits, but likely won't be able to take advantage of those same socialist benefits ourselves when we reach retirement age. Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/89091590/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 12 13:37:07 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:37:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> We had the good report recently on Friedman's _Flat Earth_. In the same spirit, I want to recommend Matt Tiabbi's _The Great Derangement_. Some excerpts: He has spent a few days at a religious retreat. Re his time there, "It's not merely the informational indoctrination, the constant belittling of homosexuals and atheists and Muslims and pacifists, etc., that's the issue. It's that once you've gotten to this place, you've left behind the mental process that a person would need to form an independent opinion about such things....All that matters is being full of the Lord and empty of demons. And since everything that is not of God is demonic, asking these people to be objective about anything else is just absurd" (p. 100). After visiting US troops at various Forward Operating Bases in Iraq: "In America we live in a bubble and the rest of the world is a dangerous mystery, about which many legends may be spread by those cunning and unscrupulous enough to bother....A key aspect of the derangement is this cutting off of the people from outside reality. We are like a person slipping into paranoid psychosis for whom hallucinations and imagined conversations increasingly take the place of real object relations in the outside world. A paranoic can handle those imaginary conversations just fine--but shake him by the shoulders and force him to focus, and he might very well stare back at you in terror, not knowing who you are or what you want" (p. 102). Also, on my upcoming reading list is a book I should have read when it first came out: Tony Horwitz's _The Confederates in the Attic_. Some wag on the radio or TV recently said that there are no "neo-cons" left anymore. What we have now are "neo-Confederates." So, this son of Virginia has to catch up with events far past that are back again. --Mike From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Apr 12 15:17:24 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:17:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBC Articles In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:23:55 -0700 Message-ID: <9481-4BC39BF4-692@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> looks like she has already been bumped http://tinyurl.com/ybo8yv3 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/7f052eca/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 15:26:52 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:26:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? - MSNBCArticles In-Reply-To: <4BC3772D.00005D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BC3772D.00005D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01ae01cada8f$408caca0$c1a605e0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > It seems MSNBC has actually reported on some big news. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You mean they reported on some non-news, otherwise called gossip and wishful thinking? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 15:33:56 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:33:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01b701cada90$3dca14c0$b95e3e40$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > The first recipient of social security retired one day after a > social security withholding of 4 cents was taken from her paycheck. > Her lump sum payoff was 17 cents. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 1 out of 3 facts isn't bad, I guess. It was a "he" and he had a nickel withheld. "The earliest reported applicant for a lump-sum benefit was a retired Cleveland motorman named Ernest Ackerman, who retired one day after the Social Security program began. During his one day of participation in the program, a nickel was withheld from Mr. Ackerman's pay for Social Security, and, upon retiring, he received a lump-sum payment of 17 cents." http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html#firstcheck That was a mere 340% return. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not a bad payoff percentage wise. Most of us will not receive that > percentage in benefits. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< An even better percentage was the first woman that started collecting monthly payments. "Ida May Fuller worked for three years under the Social Security program. The accumulated taxes on her salary during those three years was a total of $24.75. Her initial monthly check was $22.54. During her lifetime she collected a total of $22,888.92 in Social Security benefits." http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html#idamay Her return was a whopping 9,248% return. You're right though. None of us ever stand a chance of reaping those kinds of returns for our Social Security "investment" as these are the kind of anomalies that present themselves when these kinds of "pay it forward" programs get started. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Now 56 years later I draw monthly benefits not enough to retire on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You think you have it bad. I can only imagine what I have to look forward to. The failure of programs like this to adequately compensate for inevitable inflation means they're destined to always be spending more than they're taking in (which is only compounded by a boomer generation retiring) unless we have an unfortunate situation where a sizable percentage of those nearing time to collect suddenly pass on. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 15:36:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:36:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? -MSNBCArticles References: <3009-4BC36FCB-1068@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BC3772D.00005D.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <01ae01cada8f$408caca0$c1a605e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3A050.000003.00824@DON-B2514E06367> Perhaps as you say Jeff. I'm sure some would consider her supreme court material no better or worse than some already on the court. As an aside, I viseted the gardens today and no one was around to enjoy the sun. It there a certain day when everyone gardens there, like the weekends for example? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 04/12/10 15:27:26 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? -MSNBCArticles Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > It seems MSNBC has actually reported on some big news. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You mean they reported on some non-news, otherwise called gossip and wishful thinking? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/ed1133b2/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 15:41:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:41:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <01b701cada90$3dca14c0$b95e3e40$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3A171.000006.00824@DON-B2514E06367> Good show Jeff. You do check as I assumed. Mrs. Fuller must have lived to age 100. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 3:34:11 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > The first recipient of social security retired one day after a > social security withholding of 4 cents was taken from her paycheck. > Her lump sum payoff was 17 cents. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 1 out of 3 facts isn't bad, I guess. It was a "he" and he had a nickel withheld. "The earliest reported applicant for a lump-sum benefit was a retired Cleveland motorman named Ernest Ackerman, who retired one day after the Social Security program began. During his one day of participation in the program, a nickel was withheld from Mr. Ackerman's pay for Social Security, and, upon retiring, he received a lump-sum payment of 17 cents." http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html#firstcheck That was a mere 340% return. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not a bad payoff percentage wise. Most of us will not receive that > percentage in benefits. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< An even better percentage was the first woman that started collecting monthly payments. "Ida May Fuller worked for three years under the Social Security program. The accumulated taxes on her salary during those three years was a total of $24.75. Her initial monthly check was $22.54. During her lifetime she collected a total of $22,888.92 in Social Security benefits." http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html#idamay Her return was a whopping 9,248% return. You're right though. None of us ever stand a chance of reaping those kinds of returns for our Social Security "investment" as these are the kind of anomalies that present themselves when these kinds of "pay it forward" programs get started. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Now 56 years later I draw monthly benefits not enough to retire on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You think you have it bad. I can only imagine what I have to look forward to. The failure of programs like this to adequately compensate for inevitable inflation means they're destined to always be spending more than they're taking in (which is only compounded by a boomer generation retiring) unless we have an unfortunate situation where a sizable percentage of those nearing time to collect suddenly pass on. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/c5484300/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 15:48:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:48:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? -MSNBCArticles References: <9481-4BC39BF4-692@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC3A326.00000B.00824@DON-B2514E06367> To obvious for Obama to squeeze past the vetters I suppose. By the way Hoss, how is your sore shoulder doing? Ready to pick up a hoe? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/12/2010 3:17:42 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? -MSNBCArticles ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/2615ad79/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 16:00:19 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:00:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job? -MSNBCArticles In-Reply-To: <4BC3A326.00000B.00824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <9481-4BC39BF4-692@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4BC3A326.00000B.00824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01c301cada93$edb9e0b0$c92da210$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > To obvious for Obama to squeeze past the vetters I suppose. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Or, it could have been something more along the lines of what the white house had to say about the rumor: "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is not under consideration as a Supreme Court nominee, the White House said Monday. 'The president thinks Secretary Clinton is doing an excellent job as Secretary of State and wants her to remain in that position,' White House spokesman Ben LaBolt said." Additionally, there'd certainly be some vetting necessary (as with all nominees), but not for passing a bar exam. Yes, she failed the exam in DC, but passed in Arkansas. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/feb/15/chain-email/s he-failed-then-followed-bill/ Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 16:00:19 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:00:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men In-Reply-To: <4BC3A171.000006.00824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <01b701cada90$3dca14c0$b95e3e40$@com> <4BC3A171.000006.00824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01c601cada93$eec0c960$cc425c20$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Good show Jeff. You do check as I assumed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, I do. Thank you. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Mrs. Fuller must have lived to age 100. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, she sure did: "Miss Fuller, a Legal Secretary, retired in November 1939. She started collecting benefits in January 1940 at age 65 and lived to be 100 years old, dying in 1975." Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 16:33:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job?-MSNBCArticles References: <9481-4BC39BF4-692@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4BC3A326.00000B.00824@DON-B2514E06367> <01c301cada93$edb9e0b0$c92da210$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3ADCA.00001F.00824@DON-B2514E06367> Truth-o-meter sometimes wins. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 4:00:32 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job?-MSNBCArticles Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > To obvious for Obama to squeeze past the vetters I suppose. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Or, it could have been something more along the lines of what the white house had to say about the rumor: "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is not under consideration as a Supreme Court nominee, the White House said Monday. 'The president thinks Secretary Clinton is doing an excellent job as Secretary of State and wants her to remain in that position,' White House spokesman Ben LaBolt said." Additionally, there'd certainly be some vetting necessary (as with all nominees), but not for passing a bar exam. Yes, she failed the exam in DC, but passed in Arkansas. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/feb/15/chain-email/s he-failed-then-followed-bill/ Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/87d2f979/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 16:31:19 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:31:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men References: <4BBF6F37.8030208@gmail.com> <1994840539-1270837214-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961537340-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BBF7901.7030005@gmail.com> <4BC00263.000034.02392@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC0E556.5000204@jurislex.com> <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> <4BC165BE.5010209@gmail.com> <541CFE4C-A8D1-4744-9D36-8AB1F4D9FE93@verizon.net> <4BC1F739.9090507@gmail.com> <40A82DFC-A529-4D9F-ACEF-6BB1005F6D31@verizon.net> <4BC35675.00002C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <00d401cada6d$62dafe50$2890faf0$@com> <4BC3669E.4000703@jurislex.com> <4BC38083.00006C.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <01b701cada90$3dca14c0$b95e3e40$@com> <4BC3A171.000006.00824@DON-B2514E06367> <01c601cada93$eec0c960$cc425c20$@com> Message-ID: <4BC3AD47.00001C.00824@DON-B2514E06367> She would have been an interesting person to meet. Somewhat like retired college professors in a home for the elderly. I used to drop in after church and play chess with some of them. What a blast for me, and it kept them sharp when they had little else of entertainment value to look forward to each week. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/12/2010 4:00:33 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A change in the weather for S'no Men Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Good show Jeff. You do check as I assumed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, I do. Thank you. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Mrs. Fuller must have lived to age 100. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, she sure did: "Miss Fuller, a Legal Secretary, retired in November 1939. She started collecting benefits in January 1940 at age 65 and lived to be 100 years old, dying in 1975." Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/a630c76e/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Apr 12 17:51:00 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:51:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job?-MSNBCArticles In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <1428-4BC3BFF4-6020@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Don... It seems I will not be using a hoe anytime soon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100412/f808904a/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 19:51:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:51:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] From Congress and Not Controversial References: <1428-4BC3BFF4-6020@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC3DC21.00003A.00824@DON-B2514E06367> congressorg at capwiz.com Finally, something from congress that is strictly informative. If true, it gives us the latest skinny on what to expect. However, you might want to keep a laser level handy, just in case. Don Hoss, I do include you in my prayers, like it or not -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/12/2010 5:51:02 PM To: donkelly; Forest Gove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Courtjob?-MSNBCArticles ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/ac71cdfd/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 12 21:39:42 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:39:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Mike for the book recommendation. My "to-read" list is always longer than I have time for, but at least I'll add Tiabbi's book to my long list! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] Good book > We had the good report recently on Friedman's _Flat Earth_. In the same > spirit, I want to recommend Matt Tiabbi's _The Great Derangement_. Some > excerpts: > > He has spent a few days at a religious retreat. Re his time there, "It's > not merely the informational indoctrination, the constant belittling of > homosexuals and atheists and Muslims and pacifists, etc., that's the > issue. It's that once you've gotten to this place, you've left behind the > mental process that a person would need to form an independent opinion > about such things....All that matters is being full of the Lord and empty > of demons. And since everything that is not of God is demonic, asking > these people to be objective about anything else is just absurd" (p. 100). > > After visiting US troops at various Forward Operating Bases in Iraq: "In > America we live in a bubble and the rest of the world is a dangerous > mystery, about which many legends may be spread by those cunning and > unscrupulous enough to bother....A key aspect of the derangement is this > cutting off of the people from outside reality. We are like a person > slipping into paranoid psychosis for whom hallucinations and imagined > conversations increasingly take the place of real object relations in the > outside world. A paranoic can handle those imaginary conversations just > fine--but shake him by the shoulders and force him to focus, and he might > very well stare back at you in terror, not knowing who you are or what you > want" (p. 102). > > Also, on my upcoming reading list is a book I should have read when it > first came out: Tony Horwitz's _The Confederates in the Attic_. Some wag > on the radio or TV recently said that there are no "neo-cons" left > anymore. What we have now are "neo-Confederates." So, this son of > Virginia has to catch up with events far past that are back again. > > --Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 12 21:51:49 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:51:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D830D6D2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Oooops--I found a typo: it's Matt Taibbi. Sorry. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Marian Cakarnis Sent: April 12, 2010 9:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book Thanks Mike for the book recommendation. My "to-read" list is always longer than I have time for, but at least I'll add Tiabbi's book to my long list! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] Good book > We had the good report recently on Friedman's _Flat Earth_. In the same > spirit, I want to recommend Matt Tiabbi's _The Great Derangement_. Some > excerpts: > > He has spent a few days at a religious retreat. Re his time there, "It's > not merely the informational indoctrination, the constant belittling of > homosexuals and atheists and Muslims and pacifists, etc., that's the > issue. It's that once you've gotten to this place, you've left behind the > mental process that a person would need to form an independent opinion > about such things....All that matters is being full of the Lord and empty > of demons. And since everything that is not of God is demonic, asking > these people to be objective about anything else is just absurd" (p. 100). > > After visiting US troops at various Forward Operating Bases in Iraq: "In > America we live in a bubble and the rest of the world is a dangerous > mystery, about which many legends may be spread by those cunning and > unscrupulous enough to bother....A key aspect of the derangement is this > cutting off of the people from outside reality. We are like a person > slipping into paranoid psychosis for whom hallucinations and imagined > conversations increasingly take the place of real object relations in the > outside world. A paranoic can handle those imaginary conversations just > fine--but shake him by the shoulders and force him to focus, and he might > very well stare back at you in terror, not knowing who you are or what you > want" (p. 102). > > Also, on my upcoming reading list is a book I should have read when it > first came out: Tony Horwitz's _The Confederates in the Attic_. Some wag > on the radio or TV recently said that there are no "neo-cons" left > anymore. What we have now are "neo-Confederates." So, this son of > Virginia has to catch up with events far past that are back again. > > --Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 21:56:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:56:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Good book References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BC3F974.00000D.02928@DON-B2514E06367> Irrefutable empirical forensic computer evidence of document fraud by a neutral world recognized expert. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html Not really for the faint of heart, or idiopathies written in stone, but open minds welcome. Books I read now days rotate around genealogy and supportive history. I do websites on those. When my eyes were better and I was much younger I read histories of every country in the world, history of the world from the beginning, Bibles (forgive me for combining them) of Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Protestant Christians, and everything I could find on eastern religions, clear back to China around 4000 BC. In between projects I like to read science fiction, especially versions that could someday become standard science. People who conquered nations are interesting, like Alexander the Great. At one time or other I have read probably all of the ancient conquerors down to modern times. Along the way names pop up for which no known history has ever been written, interspersed with Greek mythology and other related isms. If you like any particular book about history, or neutral or specific politics, let me know and I'll try to read it and comment. -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 04/12/10 21:36:08 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book Thanks Mike for the book recommendation. My "to-read" list is always longer than I have time for, but at least I'll add Tiabbi's book to my long list! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] Good book > We had the good report recently on Friedman's _Flat Earth_. In the same > spirit, I want to recommend Matt Tiabbi's _The Great Derangement_. Some > excerpts: > > He has spent a few days at a religious retreat. Re his time there, "It's > not merely the informational indoctrination, the constant belittling of > homosexuals and atheists and Muslims and pacifists, etc., that's the > issue. It's that once you've gotten to this place, you've left behind the > mental process that a person would need to form an independent opinion > about such things....All that matters is being full of the Lord and empty > of demons. And since everything that is not of God is demonic, asking > these people to be objective about anything else is just absurd" (p. 100). > > After visiting US troops at various Forward Operating Bases in Iraq: "In > America we live in a bubble and the rest of the world is a dangerous > mystery, about which many legends may be spread by those cunning and > unscrupulous enough to bother....A key aspect of the derangement is this > cutting off of the people from outside reality. We are like a person > slipping into paranoid psychosis for whom hallucinations and imagined > conversations increasingly take the place of real object relations in the > outside world. A paranoic can handle those imaginary conversations just > fine--but shake him by the shoulders and force him to focus, and he might > very well stare back at you in terror, not knowing who you are or what you > want" (p. 102). > > Also, on my upcoming reading list is a book I should have read when it > first came out: Tony Horwitz's _The Confederates in the Attic_. Some wag > on the radio or TV recently said that there are no "neo-cons" left > anymore. What we have now are "neo-Confederates." So, this son of > Virginia has to catch up with events far past that are back again. > > --Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100412/337c09f1/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Mon Apr 12 22:20:36 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:20:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC3F974.00000D.02928@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Who could possibly care? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 12 23:14:52 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:14:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> Now Don... there you go again. We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you continue to ask the same old question. What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth Certificate", don't you understand? What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of birth in Hawaii", don't you understand? Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the State of Hawaii? It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an interest in the answer. So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or confuse someone or scare someone? David On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: > So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original birth certificate. > > ... > > Don From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 12 23:17:34 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:17:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <4BC3F974.00000D.02928@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC3F974.00000D.02928@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01f301cadad1$026c1c20$07445460$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Irrefutable empirical forensic computer evidence of document fraud > by a neutral world recognized expert. > > http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Nice try slipping more birther nonsense into a completely unrelated thread. I disagree on it being irrefutable, from a neutral party, that the neutral part is an expert, and that the expert, neutral party is world recognized. The "dude" doesn't even give his real name so any of those claims can be substantiated. Now, more to the point, but someone with far more time than me has already gone to the trouble of refuting the "irrefutable". http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5681 Can we get back to the business of talking about things that actually matter? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 13 01:48:24 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:48:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising Message-ID: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig Jeff From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 07:08:22 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:08:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth certificate. Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless of for or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:15 PM > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. > > Now Don... there you go again. > > We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and > Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you > continue to ask the same old question. > > What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth > Certificate", don't you understand? > > What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of birth > in Hawaii", don't you understand? > > Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the State of > Hawaii? > > It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an interest > in the answer. > > So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or confuse > someone or scare someone? > > David > > > On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original birth > certificate. > > > > ... > > > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 07:45:30 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:45:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> Message-ID: <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How about the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone trying to convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any government money either. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 13 08:47:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> How about giving federal money to anyone who allows a woman to reach her own decisions? Or people who merely recognize the option of abortions? For that matter, should federal money be given to people who absolutely forbid abortions? Is affirming the right to privacy tantamount to approving abortions? Should federal money be given to people who uphold the right to privacy? Should federal money be given to people who deny the right to privacy? If "instant of conception" is a religious concept, should federal money be given to those who want to legislate it into law? Should federal money be given to people who uphold the separation of church and state? Funny how "giving federal money" can be used as an argument against almost any viewpoint. On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How about > the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life > groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone trying to > convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any government > money either. > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 08:59:04 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:59:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC494C8.5030107@gmail.com> Walt Wentz wrote: > How about giving federal money to anyone who allows a woman to reach > her own decisions? No. > Or people who merely recognize the option of > abortions? No. > For that matter, should federal money be given to people > who absolutely forbid abortions? > No. > Is affirming the right to privacy tantamount to approving abortions? Not a point of approving abortions, it's the public funding of supporting or opposing abortions I am against. > > Should federal money be given to people who uphold the right to > privacy? No. > Should federal money be given to people who deny the right > to privacy? No. > If "instant of conception" is a religious concept, should > federal money be given to those who want to legislate it into law? > No. > Should federal money be given to people who uphold the separation of > church and state? > No. > Funny how "giving federal money" can be used as an argument against > almost any viewpoint. > How about not giving federal money at all? Adam > On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How about >> the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life >> groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone trying to >> convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any government >> money either. >> >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 13 09:00:46 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:00:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FYI - An opinion piece from the National Law Journal Message-ID: <4BC4952E.9000002@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100413/e55ca88b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nlj_smlogo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4695 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/e55ca88b/attachment.gif From chuck at grovenet.net Tue Apr 13 09:17:24 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:17:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> Another book to add to your list is "One Second After" b*y William Forstchen. It's a sobering look at the results of an EMP attack on the Unites States. With Obama's nuclear threat warning today, some might find it worth a read. chuck*** From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 13 09:21:25 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:21:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Psst: Hillary Clinton for Supreme Court job?-MSNBCArticles In-Reply-To: <1428-4BC3BFF4-6020@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <1428-4BC3BFF4-6020@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC49A05.9050500@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100413/8cd0ec8b/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 09:29:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:29:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC49BFE.00000B.05644@DON-B2514E06367> How about federal money (taxes) not being just given directly to people? How about federal money being used for national defense, maintenance of infrastructure like fixing national highway roads and bridges, helping states to build and maintain schools. How about government getting out of the socialist business, stay out of the bedrooms, support food growing and transportation. How about government lowering taxes on working people instead of blowing trillions of dollars on dead end projects of debatable value. How about government setting standards for protection of the environment and getting out of ownership of private businesses. How about government getting rid of half the employees and make them get private sector jobs and work and pay taxes like we do. How about the government firing all of those useless CZARS and save billions of dollars in ten years time. How about government just stop blowing our taxes to bloat their ranks beyond belief. And that is just the executive branch I am talking about, and legislative branch supporting them with the Judicial branch allowing them to walk on the flag and the constitution with little or no risk. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 04/13/10 08:47:59 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising How about giving federal money to anyone who allows a woman to reach her own decisions? Or people who merely recognize the option of abortions? For that matter, should federal money be given to people who absolutely forbid abortions? Is affirming the right to privacy tantamount to approving abortions? Should federal money be given to people who uphold the right to privacy? Should federal money be given to people who deny the right to privacy? If "instant of conception" is a religious concept, should federal money be given to those who want to legislate it into law? Should federal money be given to people who uphold the separation of church and state? Funny how "giving federal money" can be used as an argument against almost any viewpoint. On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How about > the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life > groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone trying to > convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any government > money either. > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/f2178ef8/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Apr 13 09:37:04 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:37:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thanks, Chuck. Good to hear from you. I hope all is well. I'm familiar with the EMP phenomenon...at least, as much as an English teacher can be...due to many years of teaching basic Peace Studies classes. I think this was first noticed as a problem with a test near Hawai'i...and lots of circuitry went flooey. Highly unpleasant. Take care. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of chuck Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:17 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book Another book to add to your list is "One Second After" b*y William Forstchen. It's a sobering look at the results of an EMP attack on the Unites States. With Obama's nuclear threat warning today, some might find it worth a read. chuck*** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 13 09:38:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:38:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <4BC494C8.5030107@gmail.com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> <4BC494C8.5030107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <211701EC-E9C8-4823-B9FB-007CA8094F7E@teleport.com> Bingo, "no to all the above" is the correct response... WW On Apr 13, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> How about giving federal money to anyone who allows a woman to reach >> her own decisions? > No. > >> Or people who merely recognize the option of >> abortions? > No. > >> For that matter, should federal money be given to people >> who absolutely forbid abortions? >> > No. > >> Is affirming the right to privacy tantamount to approving abortions? > Not a point of approving abortions, it's the public funding of > supporting or opposing abortions I am against. >> >> Should federal money be given to people who uphold the right to >> privacy? > No. > >> Should federal money be given to people who deny the right >> to privacy? > No. >> If "instant of conception" is a religious concept, should >> federal money be given to those who want to legislate it into law? >> > No. >> Should federal money be given to people who uphold the separation of >> church and state? >> > No. >> Funny how "giving federal money" can be used as an argument against >> almost any viewpoint. >> > How about not giving federal money at all? > > Adam >> On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How >>> about >>> the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life >>> groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone >>> trying to >>> convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any >>> government >>> money either. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 10:21:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:21:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Message-ID: <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Steven, I agree that these questions should be resolved by release of a copy of the real birth certificate, leaving every citizen the opportunity to make their own decision instead of being force fed just what the president wants you to see; instead of being force fed statements of two Hawaiian bureaucrats whose motives are suspect. When a COLB is put on line by the president which professionals have investigated and found to be photo shopped, it gives pause for reflection. When the president spent nearly one million dollars to send lawyers to every place he lived to put seals on his records of the past, that gives more pause for reflection. When the congress of Kenya met on March 25 this year and a leader commented that "Obama was a son of Africa, born in Kenya, and complimented the United States for electing his despite the fact he was not born in America, and puts that statement into the record (minutes of the meeting) and no congressman of Kenya objects to that statement, that gives massive pause for reflection. Personally I have drawn conclusions based on the facts I have seen, but I have not yet seen all of the facts, nor has my decision been written in stone, and will not be written in stone until all of the facts have been uncovered. For the well being of the nation I hope I am wrong. For Obama personally I hope I am right. I do not support a constitutional amendment that would allow foreigners to become president. It is a precedent I do not want to see happen. I don't want to see a person from China, or Russia, or Afghanistan, or a Mullah from Pakistan, waltz into America and become president. Everyone has a right to look into every eventuality, to look at all of the facts, then decide what those facts indicate. Then it will be up to people of America whether or not they want to support an amendment to our constitution to allow foreigners to take over our government. Before world war II Austria did that, the people's choice, allowed Hitler to take over, with disastrous results. Could that happen in America? Well, could it? Don -------Original Message------- From: Steven Date: 4/13/2010 7:08:54 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth certificate. Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless of for or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:15 PM > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. > > Now Don... there you go again. > > We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and > Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you > continue to ask the same old question. > > What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth > Certificate", don't you understand? > > What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of birth > in Hawaii", don't you understand? > > Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the State of > Hawaii? > > It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an interest > in the answer. > > So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or confuse > someone or scare someone? > > David > > > On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original birth > certificate. > > > > ... > > > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/dcba7c12/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 13 10:44:38 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:44:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <029a01cadb30$fdb9b600$f92d2200$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I agree that these questions should be resolved by release of a > copy of the real birth certificate, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It has been. The photographs at the factcheck.org link I posted the other day are of the real deal. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > When a COLB is put on line by the president which professionals have > investigated and found to be photo shopped, it gives pause for > reflection. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Initially "photoshopped" to crop it and redact the certificate number, nothing more. If you're referring to the phony forensic "workup" you posted yesterday, it's already been shown to be inaccurate. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > When the president spent nearly one million dollars to send lawyers > to every place he lived to put seals on his records of the past, > that gives more pause for reflection. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< As I haven't found any documentation of this in my research, I'm starting to doubt this claim too. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > When the congress of Kenya met on March 25 this year and a leader > commented that "Obama was a son of Africa, born in Kenya, and > complimented the United States for electing his despite the fact he > was not born in America, and puts that statement into the record > (minutes of the meeting) and no congressman of Kenya objects to > that statement, that gives massive pause for reflection. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yup, and then saying "excuse me" for the flatulence it represents. Seriously, it matters not what a member of a foreign country says unless there's proof to backup what they say. Saying it in an official meeting doesn't make the statement any more credible (or incredible). A lack of objection doesn't represent acceptance of the comment, nor does it give credibility to it either. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Personally I have drawn conclusions based on the facts I have seen, > but I have not yet seen all of the facts, nor has my decision been > written in stone, and will not be written in stone until all of the > facts have been uncovered. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You don't know what you don't know. If constantly "woodpeckering" on an issue like this despite no one else being interested in it is your idea of your decision not being written in stone, then I'm concerned what it'd look like if you'd already made up your mind. ;P ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I do not support a constitutional amendment that would allow > foreigners to become president. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone else here supports that either. I don't think anyone has put something like that on the table for consideration. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 11:06:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:06:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <029a01cadb30$fdb9b600$f92d2200$@com> Message-ID: <4BC4B2AE.000033.05644@DON-B2514E06367> -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/13/2010 10:44:54 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I agree that these questions should be resolved by release of a > copy of the real birth certificate, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It has been. Not Jeff The photographs at the factcheck.org link I posted the other day are of the real deal. Factcheck has been discredited three times on this question over two years ago. Best to depend on what you personally see and be suspicious of possible motives of bureaucrats. Don .com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/9e13c269/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Apr 13 11:12:01 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:12:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon news In-Reply-To: <4BC4B2AE.000033.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <029a01cadb30$fdb9b600$f92d2200$@com> <4BC4B2AE.000033.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB08E7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> I just saw a news item from the Portland Business Journal: Al Reser just passed away at age 74. Current full story at: http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2010/04/12/daily14.html --Mike From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 13 11:18:43 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:18:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02d001cadb35$c0b334c0$42199e40$@com> > Jeff Howden wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig Some more information on the issue, specifically the 2006 Congressional study on Crisis Pregnancy Centers. http://www.chsourcebook.com/articles/waxman2.pdf Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 11:41:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:41:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Good book References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Chuck is on target here. Under EMP theories an enemy need not bombard America with nuclear weapons to destroy our ability to retaliate. One large nuclear weapon set off 100 miles above the center of America could bring America down for a few days up to an unknown number of months, without causing large physical damage at ground level. All the weapon has to do is destroy our means of communication, our means to generate and distribute power, to cripple our abilities to control and direct our military protections. Electro Magnetic Pulses can be used for far greater purposes than disabling a speeding car or truck on a freeway. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/13/2010 9:37:16 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book Thanks, Chuck. Good to hear from you. I hope all is well. I'm familiar with the EMP phenomenon...at least, as much as an English teacher can be...due to many years of teaching basic Peace Studies classes. I think this was first noticed as a problem with a test near Hawai'i...and lots of circuitry went flooey. Highly unpleasant. Take care. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of chuck Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:17 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book Another book to add to your list is "One Second After" b*y William Forstchen. It's a sobering look at the results of an EMP attack on the Unites States. With Obama's nuclear threat warning today, some might find it worth a read. chuck*** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/2f0e9ea5/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 12:09:40 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:09:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <02d001cadb35$c0b334c0$42199e40$@com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <02d001cadb35$c0b334c0$42199e40$@com> Message-ID: <90ECB1106B2745A5996385357BF6E02A@JeffVAIO> THANK YOU! I was absolutely floored when I saw the video and have been fuming about the fact that federal dollars are being spent by lying to young impressionable women. Before forwarding this on, I was trying to find additional information to substantiate that the video was in fact "real" and not spreading more rumors. Your link to the 2006 Congressional Study certainly helps. Thank you, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:18 AM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig > > Some more information on the issue, specifically the 2006 Congressional > study on Crisis Pregnancy Centers. > > http://www.chsourcebook.com/articles/waxman2.pdf > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 12:17:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:17:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <02d001cadb35$c0b334c0$42199e40$@com> Message-ID: <4BC4C34A.00004B.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Jeff. I owe it to people I communicate with to read everything placed in front of me. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/13/2010 11:19:04 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising > Jeff Howden wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXRVA16Kig Some more information on the issue, specifically the 2006 Congressional study on Crisis Pregnancy Centers. http://www.chsourcebook.com/articles/waxman2.pdf Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/72c51589/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 12:37:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:37:06 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon news References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC4A81A.000023.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <029a01cadb30$fdb9b600$f92d2200$@com> <4BC4B2AE.000033.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB08E7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BC4C7DA.000050.05644@DON-B2514E06367> The march of good guys and gals into history continues unabated. Al Reser was indeed one of the good guys who made a living and provided many jobs to support many families. We most likely all use products made by Al's company. His company will continue into the future, but we will all remember and miss Al Reser of Reser's Products. About jobs in Portland area, The nation?s 100 biggest labor markets all have fewer private-sector jobs now than they did a year ago, according to figures released Wednesday morning by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Portland area was among the markets with the most losses, ranking 85th with 4.46 percent jobs lost from February 2009 to February 2010. In February last year there were 834,100 private-sector jobs in the Portland area. This February the Portland area had 796,900 jobs, a loss of 37,200 Don Read more: Portland loses 37,200 jobs in past year - Portland Business Journal: -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/13/2010 11:12:16 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon news I just saw a news item from the Portland Business Journal: Al Reser just passed away at age 74. Current full story at: http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2010/04/12/daily14.html --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/6dc7ea4e/attachment.gif From chuck at grovenet.net Tue Apr 13 13:18:50 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:18:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> One Second After was the very first book I bought for my iphone. I read it in 2 days. Then I read it again. It describes life in a "Norman Rockwell" town (very much like Forest Grove) after an EMP attack. Of course, without radios or TVs, no one knows what has happened, and assumes it's a power outage. Until they realize the cars aren't moving either, and planes have dropped from the sky, and anything that has an electrical circuit in it is pretty much worthless. Within a few short months, America pretty much becomes a 3rd world country, and reverts back 150 years, if not further. Imagine life with no electricity, no radio, no TV. No Internet, no Computers, no Cell Phones. No telephones or communication of any kind. No transportation unless you have an old clunker sitting in your driveway that doesn't have a computer in it, or maybe a horse. But you'll probably end up eating that. No heat, no air conditioning, no electric range, no microwave, no coffee makers. No McDonalds, no Burger Kings, no Safeways. No food whatsoever - except for what you have stocked beforehand, or what you can grow. Tom's Buffalo Ranch would become a popular place. Oh, and no water either - city water is pumped. No pumps. As Mike said, "highly unpleasant". I would just leave this as a scary work of fiction, if not for the Forward written by ex-Speaker Newt Gingrich, and the Afterword written by a United States Navy Captian. As they say, "The threat is real". Is our government prepared? Hopefully more that they were for 911 or Katrina. Is it a real threat? North Korea? Iran? China? What do you think? Scary stuff. Like I said, an eye opening book. Very well written. Highly recommend it. From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 13:21:42 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:21:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Message-ID: A good investigative piece is one where there is some thing to investigate. If there is nothing to a story it is just a waste of time and resources to do an article on it. Why don't they investigate whether Barack Obama is a martian? Because it would be a waste of time and make them look foolish. Katie On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth > certificate. > Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless > of for or > against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:15 PM >> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. >> >> Now Don... there you go again. >> >> We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and >> Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you >> continue to ask the same old question. >> >> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth >> Certificate", don't you understand? >> >> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of >> birth >> in Hawaii", don't you understand? >> >> Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the State of >> Hawaii? >> >> It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an >> interest >> in the answer. >> >> So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or >> confuse >> someone or scare someone? >> >> David >> >> >> On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original >>> birth >> certificate. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 13 13:30:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:30:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Message-ID: <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> A better idea: Why don't they do an investigative piece on the Birthers? Try to find out who is mass-producing the drivel they parrot endlessly, and why? Lots of people would be interested in that. Including me. I might even buy a bottle of Mop n' Glo, if they were the advertisers for the show. ;^) WW On Apr 13, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > A good investigative piece is one where there is some thing to > investigate. > > If there is nothing to a story it is just a waste of time and > resources to do an article on it. > > Why don't they investigate whether Barack Obama is a martian? Because > it would be a waste of time and make them look foolish. > > Katie > > On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > >> Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth >> certificate. >> Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless >> of for or >> against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news >> piece. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:15 PM >>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. >>> >>> Now Don... there you go again. >>> >>> We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and >>> Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you >>> continue to ask the same old question. >>> >>> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth >>> Certificate", don't you understand? >>> >>> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of >>> birth >>> in Hawaii", don't you understand? >>> >>> Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the >>> State of >>> Hawaii? >>> >>> It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an >>> interest >>> in the answer. >>> >>> So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or >>> confuse >>> someone or scare someone? >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original >>>> birth >>> certificate. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> Don >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 14:11:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:11:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> A Martian walking among us would create quite a stir, unless the Martian had the ability to metamorphose into human form. But the Martian would have to learn a lot of things, like how to lie convincingly, and how to write a cover story to explain away falsehoods. How about writing about Narcissists, relatively normal narcissists that pass and militant narcissists who cannot pass? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/13/2010 1:29:57 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. A better idea: Why don't they do an investigative piece on the Birthers? Try to find out who is mass-producing the drivel they parrot endlessly, and why? Lots of people would be interested in that. Including me. I might even buy a bottle of Mop n' Glo, if they were the advertisers for the show. ;^) WW On Apr 13, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > A good investigative piece is one where there is some thing to > investigate. > > If there is nothing to a story it is just a waste of time and > resources to do an article on it. > > Why don't they investigate whether Barack Obama is a martian? Because > it would be a waste of time and make them look foolish. > > Katie > > On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > >> Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth >> certificate. >> Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless >> of for or >> against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news >> piece. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:15 PM >>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. >>> >>> Now Don... there you go again. >>> >>> We both know that Hawaii acknowledges Certificates of Live Birth and >>> Certifications of Live Birth as "Birth Certificates". Yet, you >>> continue to ask the same old question. >>> >>> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is a Birth >>> Certificate", don't you understand? >>> >>> What part of "In Hawaii, a Certificate of Live Birth is proof of >>> birth >>> in Hawaii", don't you understand? >>> >>> Why do you continue to raise issues that are resolved by the >>> State of >>> Hawaii? >>> >>> It really appears that your interest in the question is NOT an >>> interest >>> in the answer. >>> >>> So what are you looking for? Are you trying to fool someone or >>> confuse >>> someone or scare someone? >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:41 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> So two people in Hawaii government admit to seeing the original >>>> birth >>> certificate. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> Don >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/251d4e6d/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 13 14:23:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:23:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <031c01cadb4f$8653ab10$92fb0130$@com> > From: donkelly > > A Martian walking among us would create quite a stir, > unless the Martian had the ability to metamorphose into > human form. Why not just go full-tilt into the conspiracy theory genre and push some of David Icke's lizard lord's ideas? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke Oh, those are *too* far out there? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 14:37:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:37:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <031c01cadb4f$8653ab10$92fb0130$@com> Message-ID: <4BC4E424.00005C.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Gee, Obama quoted Icke awhile back, but I didn't know who Icke was. Silly me Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/13/2010 2:23:28 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. > From: donkelly > > A Martian walking among us would create quite a stir, > unless the Martian had the ability to metamorphose into > human form. Why not just go full-tilt into the conspiracy theory genre and push some of David Icke's lizard lord's ideas? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke Oh, those are *too* far out there? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/2faf5469/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Apr 13 15:12:12 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Psst=3A_Hillary_Clinton_for_Supreme=A0?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=A0=A0=A0=A0Court=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0job=3F-MSNBCArticle?= =?iso-8859-1?q?s?= In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:21:25 -0700 Message-ID: <9478-4BC4EC3C-3073@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> The Judge wrote.... I should certainly hope not ! !? Oh, excuse me, you were talking about a garden implement ? ! ? ! bob "hoo, hah" browning ------------ yep the garden, what else did ya think a hoe was good for judge, or were you speaking metaphorically? In either case I do not think my constitution would not permit it anyway. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100413/6a81fed7/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 16:57:08 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:57:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2010, at 2:11 PM, donkelly wrote: > A Martian walking among us would create quite a stir, unless the > Martian had > the ability to metamorphose into human form. > Well, there you go. If Obama was a martian he probably could morph quite easily and time travel too. So as a martian he went back in time and planted his Hawaiian birth certificate. That is how it got there all those years ago. And he wouldn't have to pay anything to the Hawaiian officials who claim they have verified his birth certificate. He picked up Vulcan mind meld techniques in his youth at least 100 years ago, so he just did a mind meld on them so they honestly think they have verified the birth certificate. Every time they say it is truly verified that is just more evidence he is a martian for sure. You see in reality, Obama is not Kenyan. He is martian - and that is what he is hiding. I'm sure you can find documents from mars that have the same ghosting pattern as his birth certificate and that is all the proof one needs to verify his martianness. Katie But don't let Obama know that we are on to his secret. ; ) He would probably turn our blood green. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 19:10:42 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:10:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Encapsulated Mega Issues which critically hurt us all References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> You will hear nothing of these issues on the major media networks. You will hear about these on foreign news networks http://grou.ps/godcountryusa/blogs/107368 voices at israelunitycoalition.org; Are there any comments on either of these mega issues? How do these issues affect us locally? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/94483c48/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 19:17:55 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:17:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Encapsulated Mega Issues which critically hurt us all In-Reply-To: <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <43FF22D6-D002-4199-AC58-DBD9C31E35FB@verizon.net> No, we can't talk about any other issue than the proven fact that Obama is a martian! On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > You will hear nothing of these issues on the major media networks. > You will > hear about these on foreign news networks > > > > http://grou.ps/godcountryusa/blogs/107368 > > > > voices at israelunitycoalition.org; > > > > Are there any comments on either of these mega issues? > > > > How do these issues affect us locally? > > > > Don________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 21:58:36 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:58:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Message-ID: <06146F6F-07B6-4C73-8BFD-1CCD07E43C01@verizon.net> I checked. And instead of covering this hot, breaking story, 60 Minutes was spending their time documenting the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, the $500 Million looted from the Iraq military reconstruction budget, the failure to rebuild the World Trade Center, the McCain campaign, the Clinton Campaign, the Edwards campaign, the Obama campaign, the Battle for Faluga, the proposal for reconstruction of the Deep Water Coast Guard, the War in Afghanistan, Iran's nuclear program, Russian opposition to Putin, Sara Palin, and other unimportant topics. They left the work to the state of Hawaii, to prove that they know how to read their own documents and review their own data. It is a pity that some people don't believe that Hawaiians are smart enough to know how to read their own records. Or that they would lie about it. Which is pretty odd, when you consider that the Republican Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingel, introduced Governor Sara Palin as the Republican candidate for Vice President at the RNC Convention. Right, a Hawaiian Republican governor doesn't know how to use the Birth Certificate issue to help their candidate get elected President. Just perhaps the Republican governor knows something you don't. The governor knows that there is nothing to the "issue" and she can ruin her career with it. David David On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth certificate. Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless of for or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:02:46 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:02:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast Message-ID: The Florida congressional election results are in . What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior citizens... Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating in other districts. And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his long term interest. There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. Katie From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:02:51 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:02:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> Message-ID: That would be consistent. I can support the concept that abortion in the first trimester is legal and private donors can fund the program. I can even support the Supreme Courts opinion that abortion in the third trimester is a proper issue for legal restrictions. What about public support for the children who are born to the pro life women? Actually, if your other suggestion to avoid paying money directly to people, that might not be an issue here. David On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Funny how it's ok to give money to one group but not both? How about the government doesn't give any money to the pro choice or pro life groups. Abortions should not be publicly funded and anyone trying to convince a woman not to have an abortion should not get any government money either. > > Adam From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 22:11:09 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:11:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701cadb90$e55cfad0$b016f070$@net> Gerymandering. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Katie Allnutt > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:03 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast > > The Florida congressional election results are in . > > What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections > after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has > fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an > administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here > - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. > > What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were > told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior > citizens... > > Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave > of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. > > The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum > on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat > campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. > > Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating > in other districts. > > And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown > voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment > benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has > decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his > long term interest. > > There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but > the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:28:21 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:28:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Disturbing False Advertising In-Reply-To: <4BC49BFE.00000B.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <020f01cadae6$14ac9b70$3e05d250$@com> <4BC4838A.1080405@gmail.com> <1A872085-7665-4EFC-8431-FCC53B639A7E@teleport.com> <4BC49BFE.00000B.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1F936884-37DB-4054-90AE-28CDC1C0F2B4@verizon.net> On Apr 13, 2010, at 9:29 AM, donkelly wrote: > How about federal money (taxes) not being just given directly to people? Oops, Don suggested that not Adam. Can we expand that to restrict giving money, vouchers, financial backing and guarantees to big businesses too? Oh, how about not giving government power to businesses? > > > How about federal money being used for national defense, maintenance of infrastructure like fixing national highway roads and bridges, helping states to build and maintain schools. Maybe we should let states build their own highways, rail, airports, and schools. > > How about government getting out of the socialist business, stay out of the bedrooms, support food growing and transportation. Maybe we should get out of the food subsidy business completely. After all peanut, wheat, corn and tobacco farmers should get off the public trough. > > How about government lowering taxes on working people instead of blowing trillions of dollars on dead end projects of debatable value. Yeah. Like the idiot war in Iraq. > > How about government setting standards for protection of the environment and getting out of ownership of private businesses. And subsidies too. We don't need the government picking up the tab for nuclear plant insurance. We don't need the government taking private land to build Natural Gas pipelines. We don't need the government allowing coal plant pollution on federal lands. > > How about government getting rid of half the employees and make them get private sector jobs and work and pay taxes like we do. Government workers actually do pay taxes like the rest of us. Even the military ones. And they really work too. At least as hard as the executives who play golf and take their martini lunches on expense accounts. > > How about the government firing all of those useless CZARS and save billions of dollars in ten years time. You spend a lot of time complaining about those Czgars. How do you feel about the czgarettes? > > How about government just stop blowing our taxes to bloat their ranks beyond belief. And how about the government stops giving tax breaks for the exportation of our jobs too. > > And that is just the executive branch I am talking about, and legislative branch supporting them with the Judicial branch allowing them to walk on the flag and the constitution with little or no risk. Yeah, the Judicial goes out an adds all sorts of things to the legal system that just are not in the Constitution. Like that time in 1894 when the Supreme Court decided that people charged with crimes are "Innocent until proven guilty". What un-American anti-Constitution rubbish! It isn't in the Constitution and so we don't have to presume anything. We can presume anyone who goes to court is guilty, and let them prove their innocence. > Don Based upon your push for the "guilty until proven otherwise" in the Birth Certificate issue, I guess you don't appreciate that Supreme Court decision. I actually do. I like the "Innocent until proven guilty" principle. David From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:40:20 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:40:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <003701cadb90$e55cfad0$b016f070$@net> References: <003701cadb90$e55cfad0$b016f070$@net> Message-ID: <51CFB944-7CB1-4112-B895-FDF67BFF371A@verizon.net> Given the Republican Governor, Lt. Governor, Attorney General, Treasurer, majority in State House and State Senate, I guess that must be the only Democratic ghetto in the state. David On Apr 13, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Steven wrote: > Gerymandering. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 22:44:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:44:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <06146F6F-07B6-4C73-8BFD-1CCD07E43C01@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC55596.000098.05644@DON-B2514E06367> It's all politics. Too bad we the people cannot force changes in politics. Perhaps someday...... Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/13/2010 9:59:43 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. I checked. And instead of covering this hot, breaking story, 60 Minutes was spending their time documenting the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, the $500 Million looted from the Iraq military reconstruction budget, the failure to rebuild the World Trade Center, the McCain campaign, the Clinton Campaign, the Edwards campaign, the Obama campaign, the Battle for Faluga, the proposal for reconstruction of the Deep Water Coast Guard, the War in Afghanistan, Iran's nuclear program, Russian opposition to Putin, Sara Palin and other unimportant topics. They left the work to the state of Hawaii, to prove that they know how to read their own documents and review their own data. It is a pity that some people don't believe that Hawaiians are smart enough to know how to read their own records. Or that they would lie about it. Which is pretty odd, when you consider that the Republican Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingel, introduced Governor Sara Palin as the Republican candidate for Vice President at the RNC Convention. Right, a Hawaiian Republican governor doesn't know how to use the Birth Certificate issue to help their candidate get elected President. Just perhaps the Republican governor knows something you don't. The governor knows that there is nothing to the "issue" and she can ruin her career with it. David David On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth certificate Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless of for or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100413/32fb6e9f/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:51:24 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:51:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <51CFB944-7CB1-4112-B895-FDF67BFF371A@verizon.net> References: <003701cadb90$e55cfad0$b016f070$@net> <51CFB944-7CB1-4112-B895-FDF67BFF371A@verizon.net> Message-ID: <60167992-D193-4314-94B1-25795C41DC5A@verizon.net> You beat me to it David, I was going to note that the republicans have had the FL senate since '92 and the FL house since '96. Katie On Apr 13, 2010, at 10:40 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Given the Republican Governor, Lt. Governor, Attorney General, > Treasurer, majority in State House and State Senate, I guess that > must be the only Democratic ghetto in the state. > > David > > On Apr 13, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Steven wrote: > >> Gerymandering. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 22:54:19 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC55596.000098.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <06146F6F-07B6-4C73-8BFD-1CCD07E43C01@verizon.net> <4BC55596.000098.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <50ED73A1-302A-4854-84BA-D1833DD46B61@verizon.net> The people can only force changes if they work together to do it. It takes a lot of inertia to overcome the money of the corporations. But it can be done. And it has been done. Women can now vote and it only took 75 years of work to get it done. Katie On Apr 13, 2010, at 10:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > It's all politics. Too bad we the people cannot force changes in > politics. > Perhaps someday...... > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: David Morelli > > Date: 4/13/2010 9:59:43 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. > > > > I checked. And instead of covering this hot, breaking story, 60 > Minutes was > spending their time documenting the outing of CIA agent Valerie > Plame, the > $500 Million looted from the Iraq military reconstruction budget, the > failure to rebuild the World Trade Center, the McCain campaign, the > Clinton > Campaign, the Edwards campaign, the Obama campaign, the Battle for > Faluga, > the proposal for reconstruction of the Deep Water Coast Guard, the > War in > Afghanistan, Iran's nuclear program, Russian opposition to Putin, > Sara Palin > and other unimportant topics. > > > > They left the work to the state of Hawaii, to prove that they know > how to > read their own documents and review their own data. > > > > It is a pity that some people don't believe that Hawaiians are > smart enough > to know how to read their own records. Or that they would lie > about it. > Which is pretty odd, when you consider that the Republican Governor of > Hawaii, Linda Lingel, introduced Governor Sara Palin as the Republican > candidate for Vice President at the RNC Convention. > > > > Right, a Hawaiian Republican governor doesn't know how to use the > Birth > Certificate issue to help their candidate get elected President. Just > perhaps the Republican governor knows something you don't. The > governor > knows that there is nothing to the "issue" and she can ruin her > career with > it. > > > > David > > > > David > > > > > > On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Steven wrote: > > > >> Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth >> certificate > Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless > of for > or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news > piece. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 13 23:33:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:33:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Encapsulated Mega Issues which critically hurt us all In-Reply-To: <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> Did you notice how the speaker in the video works for ATLAHWorldwide? If you flip the second letter you can see that he really works for ALLAHWorldwide. That organization is a front for the great world wide Muslim conspiracy. Don't fall for what they say. They just want you to get rid of Obama because he knows what they are planning. With his background, he knows what they have been teaching. With his experience in Africa and Pakistan, he knows their weaknesses. That's why they need to get rid of him, other wise his "legacy" will be the utter destruction of the ALLAHWorldwide almost secret network, and it's replacement with a Democratic Christian World Order. They are afraid of his legacy, they said so in the video. Back to the original question. No comment by the major media on the possibility that Barrack Obama was an assassin for the CIA in 1981? How about this? It is a stupid assertion. One that could only appeal to someone who... Let me put it this way, if you find anyone who actually believes that speaker, don't lend them money and don't let them play with sharp objects. Why do you ask? David On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > You will hear nothing of these issues on the major media networks. You will hear about these on foreign news networks > > http://grou.ps/godcountryusa/blogs/107368 > ... > Are there any comments on either of these mega issues? > > How do these issues affect us locally? > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 00:12:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:12:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> Message-ID: If the concern is to preserve our way of life following the meltdown of electronic circuitry and the massive transportation system that serves our consumer goods, perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider "IF" we should be pushing the current economic model so hard. Well designed and constructed homes in Oregon don't need air conditioning. People who commute less than three miles each way don't really need cars. Food that is locally grown stays available even when the trains don't run. Unless we continue to build the typical homes, commute to Portland, and buy food out of season. Making changes won't keep us at our current level, but dropping back to 3rd world status and 150 years, isn't necessary either, if we do make better choices today. It might even have other beneficial effects on personal health and well being. It just doesn't scale up to allow mega corporations their current level of dominance. So, don't expect the current political parties to take the question seriously. Their national corporate sponsors don't like the necessary alternatives. There is a story of Joseph in the Bible who, during the fat years, anticipated the problems of the coming lean years. David On Apr 13, 2010, at 1:18 PM, chuck wrote: > One Second After was the very first book I bought for my iphone. I read it in 2 days. Then I read it again. > > ... > I would just leave this as a scary work of fiction, if not for the Forward written by ex-Speaker Newt Gingrich, and the Afterword written by a United States Navy Captian. As they say, "The threat is real". Is our government prepared? Hopefully more that they were for 911 or Katrina. Is it a real threat? North Korea? Iran? China? What do you think? Scary stuff. > > Like I said, an eye opening book. Very well written. Highly recommend it. From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 14 00:54:36 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:54:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Encapsulated Mega Issues which critically hurt us all In-Reply-To: <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <038701cadba7$ba910cd0$2fb32670$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > You will hear nothing of these issues on the major media networks. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yup, because they're absolutely baseless, incredibly unnewsy, and fraught with innumerable flaws of logic, reason, and even appeal. It's nothing more than wishful thinking lacking anything that resembles evidence, truth, or even the most basic understanding of reality. Oh, and any journalist worth their salt realizes that reporting on anything like this would be a career ender, not because of some conspiratorial Obama media coverup/lovefest, but because they'd be fired by their employer for lousy journalism, laughed out by their colleagues for taking such a ridiculous risk with no possible payoff, or barely get into the investigative portion, fact checking "Dr." Manning, etc. only to quickly come to the very same conclusions any other sane individual would come to -- it's nonsense. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > You will hear about these on foreign news networks ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< By "foreign" do you mean individual wackadoos from other countries? Credible foreign news sources are *not* and have *not* been reporting on this sort of rubbish because of the same reason US news sources haven't (hint: it's not the conspiracy you think it) except to talk about the latest birther nonsense and reporting about how it's summarily, appropriately, and legally crushed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > http://grou.ps/godcountryusa/blogs/107368 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Rubbish, racist, and repulsive; not necessarily in that order. I don't know what your second "mega" issue is so can't comment on it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are there any comments on either of these mega issues? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If by "mega" you mean "insignificant", then yes, but I see only one. See above for my comments. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > How do these issues affect us locally? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< An awkward chuckle, a belabored sigh, and then wishful thinking that the insanity will subside? How else could it possibly affect us locally? Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 06:33:54 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:33:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think you can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. Adam Katie Allnutt wrote: > The Florida congressional election results are in . > > What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections > after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has > fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an > administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here > - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. > > What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were > told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior > citizens... > > Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave > of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. > > The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum > on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat > campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. > > Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating > in other districts. > > And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown > voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment > benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has > decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his > long term interest. > > There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but > the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 14 08:30:56 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:30:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] For shame, 56 years later . . . . Message-ID: <4BC5DFB0.90303@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100414/a006536f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/a006536f/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: csm_logo_115.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/a006536f/attachment.jpg From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 14 08:44:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC5E2CF.7040907@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100414/35e7c622/attachment.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 08:54:58 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:54:58 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC5E2CF.7040907@jurislex.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com><4BC5E2CF.7040907@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <468008605-1271260509-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-736096246-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Since it was mostly people opposed th o the health insurance bill, makes sense. Doesn't mean that government isn't a scam for wall street or that things are all happy now. Moat likely it shows that the democrats have the voter fraud dialed in now. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:15 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 14 09:01:46 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <468008605-1271260509-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-736096246-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com><4BC5E2CF.7040907@jurislex.com> <468008605-1271260509-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-736096246-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BC5E6EA.5050705@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100414/03d51615/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 14 09:07:33 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More evidence on the efficacy of smoking bans . . . . Message-ID: <4BC5E845.5000908@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100414/1cbd2ca9/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 09:14:48 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:14:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <468008605-1271260509-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-736096246-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com><4BC5E2CF.7040907@jurislex.com> <468008605-1271260509-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-736096246-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BC5E9F8.4070104@gmail.com> I don't think it was fraud and I don't think all voters are fizzled out. My guess is that it was a quick election and most people were not aware it was happening. In elections like these the candidate (or party) who is the most organized will have the best GOTV (Get Out The Vote) mechanism. Seeing that this is a high Democrat district, they were probably more organized and made sure that their people went to the polling place. The other probability, and I'll admit it's a slight one, would be a protest vote. If the voters in the district didn't like either of the candidates, to show lack of support they would not vote on purpose. I doubt this. I'm sure this election came as a surprise to the voters of the 19th district, how often is there an election in April? This might have an even stronger effect to motivate people for the general election to support a Tea Party candidate, or maybe not. Adam Steve wrote: > Since it was mostly people opposed th o the health insurance bill, makes sense. > Doesn't mean that government isn't a scam for wall street or that things are all happy now. > Moat likely it shows that the democrats have the voter fraud dialed in now. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:15 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 09:27:59 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:27:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] For shame, 56 years later . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BC5DFB0.90303@jurislex.com> References: <4BC5DFB0.90303@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <570FA77D9B6349F6A58A918305FE3792@JeffVAIO> This isn't nearly as shocking as you might think. In Forest Grove, we have our share of "white" classrooms and schools - and I don't believe this is a random occurrence. -Marian From: Bob Browning Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:30 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] For shame, 56 years later . . . . Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954, two generations ago, and the American Civil War ended April 9, 1865, some 7 generations ago, and yet some people still do not understand what these two events have to do with each other. How very sad ! ! ! bob "can't we just all get along with each other??" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mississippi school district ordered to end racial segregation By Warren Richey Tue Apr 13, 2010 A federal judge on Tuesday ordered a Mississippi school district to halt local policies that had allowed some of the district's schools and classes to become racially segregated. US District Judge Tom Lee gave the Walthall County School District 30 days to amend its student transfer policy and ordered an immediate halt to the alleged "clustering" of white students into certain classes in Tylertown, Miss., elementary schools. "The district shall cease using race in the assignment of students to classrooms in a manner that results in the racial segregation of students," Judge Lee said in his eight-page order. "The district shall randomly assign students to classrooms at the Tylertown Elementary Schools through the use of a student management software program," the judge said. The action stems from a federal desegregation order issued in August 1970 - nearly 40 years ago. The case was closed for lack of activity in 2001. In 2007, lawyers with the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division contacted the Mississippi school district to monitor its compliance with the 1970 desegregation order. The action revealed two alleged violations. The district was allowing more than 300 students - most of them white - to transfer from their assigned schools to a predominately white school, the Salem Attendance Center, outside their residential zone, according to court documents. The second alleged violation involved grouping white students into a few designated classes at three other schools in Tylertown. The action created a significant number of all-black classrooms at each elementary grade level, documents say. "It is unacceptable for school districts to act in a way that encourages or tolerates the resegregation of public schools," said Thomas Perez, who heads the Civil Rights Division. "We will take action so that school districts subject to federal desegregation orders comply with their obligation to eliminate vestiges of separate black and white schools," Mr. Perez said in a written statement. After identifying the alleged violations, government lawyers asked that the case be reopened. The Walthall County School District was joined by 12 other Mississippi districts that intervened as defendants in the lawsuit. Last week, a lawyer for the Walthall County School District announced that the district "does not intend to file a response" to the government's complaint. In his order, Judge Lee said that in the future only students facing "extreme hardship or emergency" would qualify for transfer outside the random class assignment system. Among examples of hardships that might qualify, the judge listed: incarceration of a parent, terminal illness or death of a parent, natural disaster, or domestic abuse or neglect affecting the student. The judge also noted that "if students with a history of inappropriate interaction [with members of a different race] are assigned to the same classroom, the district may reassign the minimum students necessary to ensure reasonable classroom harmony." Judge Lee ordered the district to take all necessary steps prior to the beginning of the 2010-2011 academic year to "accommodate the shifting enrollment patterns in the district expected to result" from the judicial ruling. The judge instructed the school district to assign sufficient faculty members and administrators to each district "to ensure the effective delivery of educational services to all students at the school for which they are residentially zoned." He also instructed the school district to "ensure that the physical condition of each school facility is adequate to satisfactorily accommodate the anticipated enrollment for respective school." Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/d39b742e/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/d39b742e/attachment.jpe From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 14 09:38:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:38:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. WW On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think you > can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. > > Adam > > Katie Allnutt wrote: >> The Florida congressional election results are in . >> >> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections >> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an >> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here >> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >> >> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >> citizens... >> >> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >> >> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum >> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >> >> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating >> in other districts. >> >> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment >> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his >> long term interest. >> >> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >> >> Katie >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 09:43:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:43:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC5F0A6.00000A.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Florida has been heavily democratic since 1877, only supporting elections of 3 republican presidential runners in all that time. But give credit to Florida Democrats for being the best at registering whites, blacks and tans to vote for their candidates. In fact the registration of blacks and tans with the democratic party is three times more than the registration of these minorities to the republican party. The D's do a superior job of registering voters by a ratio of about 6 to 4 over republicans. But more recently the democratic party resorted to dirty tricks by claiming in January this year that the Attorney General of Florida wanted to dismantle social security. FactCheck labeled it a pants on fire lie, but the damage with the elderly and those about to retire in Florida was done. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/14/2010 6:34:28 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think you can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. Adam Katie Allnutt wrote: > The Florida congressional election results are in . > > What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections > after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has > fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an > administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here > - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. > > What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were > told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior > citizens... > > Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave > of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. > > The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum > on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat > campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. > > Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating > in other districts. > > And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown > voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment > benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has > decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his > long term interest. > > There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but > the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/fd385566/attachment.gif From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 09:43:20 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:43:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> Or they weren't aware that there was a vote. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. > WW > On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think you >> can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. >> >> Adam >> >> Katie Allnutt wrote: >> >>> The Florida congressional election results are in . >>> >>> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over elections >>> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >>> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to take an >>> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath here >>> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >>> >>> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >>> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >>> citizens... >>> >>> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >>> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >>> >>> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a referendum >>> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >>> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >>> >>> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be repeating >>> in other districts. >>> >>> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >>> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending unemployment >>> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >>> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in his >>> long term interest. >>> >>> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >>> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 10:01:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:01:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> USPS New 44-Cent Stamp Celebrates a Muslim holiday. If there is only ONE thing you forward today... Let it be this! President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44-Cent First Class Holiday Postage Stamp. REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing Your stamps at the post office. All you have to say is "No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on my Letters!" To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died At the hands of those whom this stamp honors. REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of Pan Am Flight 103! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Military Barracks in Saudi Arabia ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE! REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001 ! REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM Attacks! Pass this along to every Patriotic American that you know and get the word Out! Honor the United States of America ! Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/c8183bc2/attachment.gif From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Wed Apr 14 10:23:59 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:23:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert In-Reply-To: <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3CE65BE4F40D4E94A5B11F224BFFDBA0@Office> This stamp was initiated by George W. Bush in Aug. 2001 and then re-issued in Oct. 2001. And that time, the Bush White House posted an item promoting the special stamp, as part of an effort to reach out to the world Muslim community on Ramadan. http://factcheck.org/2009/09/muslim-stamp/ -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:01 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert USPS New 44-Cent Stamp Celebrates a Muslim holiday. If there is only ONE thing you forward today... Let it be this! President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44-Cent First Class Holiday Postage Stamp. REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing Your stamps at the post office. All you have to say is "No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on my Letters!" To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died At the hands of those whom this stamp honors. REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of Pan Am Flight 103! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Military Barracks in Saudi Arabia ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE! REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001 ! REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM Attacks! Pass this along to every Patriotic American that you know and get the word Out! Honor the United States of America ! Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 10:27:56 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:27:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Good book References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <4BC5FB18.000012.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Right on David. There is much we can do to help ourselves. Like the airborne troops surrounded in Germany, we don't need to be rescued. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/14/2010 12:13:53 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Good book If the concern is to preserve our way of life following the meltdown of electronic circuitry and the massive transportation system that serves our consumer goods, perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider "IF" we should be pushing the current economic model so hard. Well designed and constructed homes in Oregon don't need air conditioning. People who commute less than three miles each way don't really need cars. Food that is locally grown stays available even when the trains don't run. Unless we continue to build the typical homes, commute to Portland, and buy food out of season. Making changes won't keep us at our current level, but dropping back to 3rd world status and 150 years, isn't necessary either, if we do make better choices today. It might even have other beneficial effects on personal health and well being. It just doesn't scale up to allow mega corporations their current level of dominance. So, don't expect the current political parties to take the question seriously. Their national corporate sponsors don't like the necessary alternatives. There is a story of Joseph in the Bible who, during the fat years, anticipated the problems of the coming lean years. David On Apr 13, 2010, at 1:18 PM, chuck wrote: > One Second After was the very first book I bought for my iphone. I read it in 2 days. Then I read it again. > > ... > I would just leave this as a scary work of fiction, if not for the Forward written by ex-Speaker Newt Gingrich, and the Afterword written by a United States Navy Captian. As they say, "The threat is real". Is our government prepared? Hopefully more that they were for 911 or Katrina. Is it a real threat? North Korea? Iran? China? What do you think? Scary stuff. > > Like I said, an eye opening book. Very well written. Highly recommend it _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/15c763f1/attachment-0001.gif From isis23ra at yahoo.com Wed Apr 14 10:36:43 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Slam Poetry Night Fri. 4/16, 7 PM, Milky Way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <175145.6029.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> CGE Announces:???SLAM POETRY NIGHT We want you to speak out.? Hear slam poets perform then get on the stage yourself. THEMES: "Speak from the Pain" "Fight Like a Girl" "Public Need not Corporate Greed" These themes are open to creative interpretation.? Improvised pieces are also welcome. Prizes will be awarded to "Overall Best," "Most Creative Performance," and "Most Relevant" Refreshments will be served. Date:? Friday, April 16 Place:? Milky Way Time:? 7:00 Sponsor:? Center for Gender Equity Free and Open to the Public Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 10:36:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:36:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Good Gas References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Researchers in Texas and elsewhere announced yesterday that they have found a cheap way to refine cheap gasoline without liberating CO2. A ton of cheap coal costs $18 and from it you can make 1.5 barrels of clean oil which will yield 42 gallons of gasoline, at a cost of 24 cents per gallon. Far as I can tell, this breakthrough was accomplished by educational facilities and private industry without financial help of the government. America and Canada holds trillions of tons of this low grade coal. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/8b880bd9/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 10:41:12 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:41:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert In-Reply-To: <3CE65BE4F40D4E94A5B11F224BFFDBA0@Office> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <3CE65BE4F40D4E94A5B11F224BFFDBA0@Office> Message-ID: Leslie, Thanks so much for your speedy reply to this hoax. Before Christmas this year, both my mom and I received the hate e-mail about these stamps. I have begun a practice of replying to everyone whose e-mail is listed on these forwarded e-mails and let them know the only purpose of these types of e-mails is to spread hate and fear and I always include the correct information. In retaliation to the spreading of this hate, we tried to buy the Muslim stamps at the Forest Grove post office, but they weren't carrying them. They offered us the nice Christian stamps. No surprise there! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Leslie.Neyman" Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:23 AM To: "'donkelly'" ; "'Forest Grove local interestslist'" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert > This stamp was initiated by George W. Bush in Aug. 2001 and then re-issued > in Oct. 2001. And that time, the Bush White House posted an item promoting > the special stamp, as part of an effort to reach out to the world Muslim > community on Ramadan. > > http://factcheck.org/2009/09/muslim-stamp/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:01 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert > > USPS New 44-Cent Stamp Celebrates a Muslim holiday. > > If there is only ONE thing you forward today... Let it be this! > > > > President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER > and > > HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44-Cent First > > Class Holiday Postage Stamp. > > > > REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are > purchasing > > Your stamps at the post office. > > > > All you have to say is "No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on > my > > Letters!" > > > > > > To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who > died > > At the hands of those whom this stamp honors. > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of Pan Am Flight 103! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon ! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Military Barracks in Saudi Arabia ! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa ! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE! > > > > REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001 ! > > > > REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM > > Attacks! > > > > Pass this along to every Patriotic American that you know and get the word > > Out! > > Honor the United States of America ! > > > > Don > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 14 10:43:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:43:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> Is they're political activists as they claim, they have no excuse for not knowing about the vote. On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Or they weren't aware that there was a vote. > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. >> WW >> On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think >>> you >>> can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>> >>>> The Florida congressional election results are in . >>>> >>>> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over >>>> elections >>>> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >>>> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to >>>> take an >>>> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath >>>> here >>>> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >>>> >>>> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >>>> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >>>> citizens... >>>> >>>> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >>>> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >>>> >>>> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a >>>> referendum >>>> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >>>> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >>>> >>>> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be >>>> repeating >>>> in other districts. >>>> >>>> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >>>> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending >>>> unemployment >>>> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >>>> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in >>>> his >>>> long term interest. >>>> >>>> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >>>> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kennybc at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 10:43:31 2010 From: kennybc at verizon.net (Ken Centers) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] CABARET Opens at Theatre in the Grove In-Reply-To: <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <201004141743.o3EHhXWl009208@mail.ipinc.net> Hello, Just wanted to let everyone know that Theatre in the Grove is opening CABARET this Friday, April 16th. My Wife, Pruella Centers, who some of you may know, directed this production. It stars James Grimes as the Emcee. He alone is worth the price of admission. He is an amazing actor-singer-dancer, as well as being a school teacher at Neil Armstrong Middle School. Other talented performers in this production are; Retired Pacific U. Professor Tom Griffith as Herr Shultz, TITG favorite Jeanna Van Dyke as Fraulein Schneider, Jenny Hauser as Sally, Daniel Keczmer as Cliff, and 2006 Miss Oergon Donilee McGinnis as the Kit Kat Girl Lulu. One interesting note: Tom Griffith starred in the very first TITG show, South Pacific, in 1970. An amazing accomplishment that he is still performing at TITG 40 years later. This cast and crew have worked incredible hard and hope you can make the time to attend. Below is the press release if you would like more info. Thanks! Ken Centers *************************************************** CABARET to open at Theatre In The Grove The chaos surrounding Hitler's rise to power in Berlin in the early 1930s threatens to tear two sets of lovers apart in CABARET, the Tony Award-winning musical opening Friday, April 16, at Theatre In The Grove. Directed by Pruella Centers, CABARET is based on "The Berlin Stories" by Christopher Isherwood and features music by John Kander, lyrics by Fred Ebb and the book by Joe Masteroff, CABARET won multiple Tony Awards on Broadway and multiple Academy Awards for the film version in 1973. In the musical, Sally Bowles, an English cabaret performer in the Kit Kat Klub, and American writer Cliff Bradshaw meet and fall in love. The Kit Kat Klub is hosted by the omnipresent Emcee whose songs reflect the ominous political undercurrents. At the same time, Fr?ulein Schneider, a German woman, begins a doomed relationship with Herr Schultz, her Jewish suitor. The audience is the witness as the escalating chaos and violence that the Nazi?s bring threaten to tear both sets of lovers, and the world, apart. Songs include: Wilkommen, Don?t Tell Mama, The Money Song, Two Ladies, and the title song. Choreography is by Kayla Scrivner, musical direction by Cory Sweany, vocal direction by Allsion Wils-King, and the production is designed by Zachary Centers. CABARET stars James Grimes as the Emcee, Jenny Hauser as Sally Bowles, Daniel Keczmer as Cliff Bradshaw, Jeanna Van Dyke as Fr?ulein Schneider and Tom Griffith as Herr Schultz. Also featured in CABARET are Alana Bertram as Fr?ulein Kost and Brian Bertram as Ernst Ludwig. CABARET contains mature themes and parental discretion is advised. CABARET opens at 8 p.m. on Friday, April 16, and runs through May 2. It performs at 8 p.m. on Fridays and Saturdays and at 2:30 p.m. on Sundays. Tickets are $12 for adults and $10 for seniors and students. Tickets are available by calling the theatre box office at 503-359-5349. From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 11:01:56 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:01:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> I agree, there is no excuse for not knowing when an election is. But many of the people in the Tea Party are very new and unfamiliar with most of the standard working of politics. To be blunt, they're major league novices, and in many states, without a clue. If they dropped the ball on this one I guarantee it won't be happening again. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Is they're political activists as they claim, they have no excuse for > not knowing about the vote. > > On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Or they weren't aware that there was a vote. >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. >>> WW >>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think >>>> you >>>> can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> The Florida congressional election results are in . >>>>> >>>>> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over >>>>> elections >>>>> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >>>>> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to >>>>> take an >>>>> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath >>>>> here >>>>> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >>>>> >>>>> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >>>>> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >>>>> citizens... >>>>> >>>>> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >>>>> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >>>>> >>>>> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a >>>>> referendum >>>>> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >>>>> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >>>>> >>>>> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be >>>>> repeating >>>>> in other districts. >>>>> >>>>> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >>>>> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending >>>>> unemployment >>>>> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >>>>> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in >>>>> his >>>>> long term interest. >>>>> >>>>> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >>>>> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >>>>> >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From phoenixacup at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 11:15:35 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:15:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Gas In-Reply-To: <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Actually, research on the use of low grade coal has been going on for decades because we have (comparatively) a lot of it and existing methods of producing energy from it are horribly polluting and can't be used because of regulations to reduce air pollution. It is still not a sustainable fuel (It takes thousands of years to make it.), it is astoundingly damaging to the environment to mine it, and coal mining is one of the most dangerous occupations in the world. Recent coal mine cave ins (in the US and in China) have been in the news. Jane B-P On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > Researchers in Texas and elsewhere announced yesterday that they have found > a cheap way to refine cheap gasoline without liberating CO2. > > A ton of cheap coal costs $18 and from it you can make 1.5 barrels of clean > oil which will yield 42 gallons of gasoline, at a cost of 24 cents per > gallon. > > Far as I can tell, this breakthrough was accomplished by educational > facilities and private industry without financial help of the government. > > America and Canada holds trillions of tons of this low grade coal. > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 11:21:37 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:21:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmmm... so they're clueless. Perhaps they should spend more time learning about the issues before making assumptions about what they mean. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Adam Mayer" Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:01 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast > I agree, there is no excuse for not knowing when an election is. But > many of the people in the Tea Party are very new and unfamiliar with > most of the standard working of politics. To be blunt, they're major > league novices, and in many states, without a clue. If they dropped the > ball on this one I guarantee it won't be happening again. > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Is they're political activists as they claim, they have no excuse for >> not knowing about the vote. >> >> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> Or they weren't aware that there was a vote. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. >>>> WW >>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think >>>>> you >>>>> can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The Florida congressional election results are in . >>>>>> >>>>>> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over >>>>>> elections >>>>>> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >>>>>> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to >>>>>> take an >>>>>> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath >>>>>> here >>>>>> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >>>>>> >>>>>> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >>>>>> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >>>>>> citizens... >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >>>>>> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >>>>>> >>>>>> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a >>>>>> referendum >>>>>> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >>>>>> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be >>>>>> repeating >>>>>> in other districts. >>>>>> >>>>>> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >>>>>> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending >>>>>> unemployment >>>>>> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >>>>>> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in >>>>>> his >>>>>> long term interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >>>>>> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 14 10:41:46 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:41:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert In-Reply-To: <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F4D7.00000F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8E6F977@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ridiculous. See Leslie's post. One wonders how many electrons have been destroyed needlessly with online twaddle like this. Don't let the facts get in the way. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:01 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Postage Stamps Alert USPS New 44-Cent Stamp Celebrates a Muslim holiday. If there is only ONE thing you forward today... Let it be this! President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44-Cent First Class Holiday Postage Stamp. REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing Your stamps at the post office. All you have to say is "No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on my Letters!" To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died At the hands of those whom this stamp honors. REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of Pan Am Flight 103! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Military Barracks in Saudi Arabia ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa ! REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE! REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001 ! REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM Attacks! Pass this along to every Patriotic American that you know and get the word Out! Honor the United States of America ! Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 11:22:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:22:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] I will vote democrat because..... References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <038701cadba7$ba910cd0$2fb32670$@com> Message-ID: <4BC607E0.000027.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Why this country is so messed up I will vote Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever I Want -- I've decided to marry my horse. I will vote Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon Of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% Isn't. I will vote Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of Spending the money I earn than I would. I will vote Democrat because Freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is Offended by it. I will vote Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys Will stop what they are doing because they now think we are good people. I will vote Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know That my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and Thieves. I will vote Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will Rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years If I don't start driving a Prius. I will vote Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions Of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates alive. I will vote Democrat because I think illegal aliens have a right to free health Care, education, and Social Security benefits. I will vote Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to Make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to The government for redistribution as the Democrats see fit. I will vote Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite The Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would never get their Agendas past the voters. I will vote Democrat because my head is so firmly planted in the sand that it Is unlikely that I'll ever have another point of view! Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/7c519280/attachment.gif From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 11:25:38 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:25:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC608A2.6050300@gmail.com> What I have seen over the past year, mainly in Oregon, is that they have. The Tea Party movement is starting to learn and become involved in the political process. Whether or not you agree with their platform, they have the potential to shape the direction of American politics for years to come. It just takes time to learn. Adam Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Hmmmm... so they're clueless. > Perhaps they should spend more time learning about the issues before making > assumptions about what they mean. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Adam Mayer" > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:01 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast > > >> I agree, there is no excuse for not knowing when an election is. But >> many of the people in the Tea Party are very new and unfamiliar with >> most of the standard working of politics. To be blunt, they're major >> league novices, and in many states, without a clue. If they dropped the >> ball on this one I guarantee it won't be happening again. >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Is they're political activists as they claim, they have no excuse for >>> not knowing about the vote. >>> >>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Or they weren't aware that there was a vote. >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Then obviously, the Tea Party didn't bother to vote. >>>>> WW >>>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Less than 10% of the voters in the district voted. I don't think >>>>>> you >>>>>> can use this as an example of the Tea Party fizzling out. >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Katie Allnutt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The Florida congressional election results are in . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What was supposed to be a Republican tidal wave taking over >>>>>>> elections >>>>>>> after Scott Brown in MA and after Obama passed health care has >>>>>>> fizzled in Florida. The seat left open by Wexler leaving to >>>>>>> take an >>>>>>> administrative position has just been won by - hold your breath >>>>>>> here >>>>>>> - a 62 to 35% rout with the Democrat beating the Republican. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What happened to all those disgruntled Medicare retirees who were >>>>>>> told they had to face the death panels? 40% of voters are senior >>>>>>> citizens... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course this was a heavily democratic district but the tidal wave >>>>>>> of people who were supposed to be up in arms apparently weren't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The republican candidate kept campaigning on this being a >>>>>>> referendum >>>>>>> on the health care bill and on Obama's policies. The democrat >>>>>>> campaigned saying that he too would have voted for the health care. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm. The Massachusetts miracle of Brown doesn't seem to be >>>>>>> repeating >>>>>>> in other districts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And now the tea party has their panties all in a wad because Brown >>>>>>> voted not to sustain the fillibuster to block extending >>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>> benefits. I guess since he is facing re election himself he has >>>>>>> decided that pushing the rope for the party of hell no isn't in >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> long term interest. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There will still be lots of seats switching parties in November but >>>>>>> the country isn't marching in lock step to the right after all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 11:36:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:36:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> It was just a rumor a month ago, but today without fan fair or media output, HB 1388, Obama's sponsored bill, was passed. Another 20 billion boondoggle that can only hurt citizens of America. The only media so far to report this was CNN by ticker tape scroll across the bottom of the newscast. Why would the media shun announcing that HB 1388 had passed? Well, perhaps they didn't know? Nah, they had to know. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/817e730a/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 11:50:57 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:50:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed In-Reply-To: <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> Don't know where your news comes from, but I just looked it up and this bill was passed on April 21, 2009. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/show -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:36 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 12:33:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:33:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BC6188B.00003F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> But signed this year and only hints flew around about what was happening. The lightning strike comes, not from reading negative press, but while reading the whole bill. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/14/2010 11:47:03 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed Don't know where your news comes from, but I just looked it up and this bill was passed on April 21, 2009. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/show -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100414/8b61b998/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 12:49:50 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:49:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed In-Reply-To: <4BC6188B.00003F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> <4BC6188B.00003F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <578B4F836F1F48F2A1D0E1F8DEFC1D5E@JeffVAIO> You wrote: But signed this year and only hints flew around about what was happening. The lightning strike comes, not from reading negative press, but while reading the whole bill. Don The timeline from Opencongress.org: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/show The bill was introduced on 3/9/09 Passed by the House on 3/18/09 Passed by the Senate on 3/26/09 Signed by the President on 4/21/09 Became Public Law No: 111-13 Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:33 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 14 13:12:58 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:12:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC608A2.6050300@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> <4BC608A2.6050300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC621CA.1040601@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100414/4a3d39d0/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 13:23:53 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:23:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Gas In-Reply-To: <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <971EC429-4F2D-41CC-B7F0-0DF302A549EE@verizon.net> ??? It is the burning of the gas that releases the most CO2. So simply refining it in a more environmentally friendly way is sort of like saying, 'hey honey I found a way to keep the dogs eyelashes from falling out so we don't have a shedding problem anymore'. You can't ignore the rest of the dog. And you have to look out for what they are not telling you. Hey folks we have a way to refine gas without releasing CO2. Please ignore the mercury and nitrous oxides we spew out by the ton because we will repeat ad nauseam that it doesn't release CO2 in the refining. What else have they with held that you would need to know to make a truly informed opinion? Katie On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > Researchers in Texas and elsewhere announced yesterday that they > have found > a cheap way to refine cheap gasoline without liberating CO2. > > > > A ton of cheap coal costs $18 and from it you can make 1.5 barrels > of clean > oil which will yield 42 gallons of gasoline, at a cost of 24 cents per > gallon. > > > > Far as I can tell, this breakthrough was accomplished by educational > facilities and private industry without financial help of the > government. > > > > America and Canada holds trillions of tons of this low grade coal. > > > > Don > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 14 13:41:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:41:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed In-Reply-To: <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <008801cadc12$d676ea80$8364bf80$@com> Don, http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200909150008 http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/hr-1388-passed-behind-our-backs/ http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/hr_1388_hamas_resettlement.ht m Can we now get back to something other than fear/hate-mongering? Jeff From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 13:46:23 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:46:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] F.G. Farmers Mkt. Message-ID: Just a month to go until the Forest Grove Farmers Market opens! I always look forward to that time of year. :) http://www.adelantemujeres.org/farmersmarket.html Geri From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 13:48:34 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:48:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed In-Reply-To: <4BC6188B.00003F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> <4BC6188B.00003F.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <64EAB2F5-5FF1-491D-BB05-D18E69795D51@verizon.net> Remember your civics? If the president does not sign a bill and does not veto it either while Congress is still in session, then a bill becomes law in 10 days without his signature. (If Congress is not in session then it is called a pocket veto.) So, if a bill was passed last year and you hear someone telling you that the president signed it this year, you need to tune up your BS antennae. The lightening strikes by being aware of what the actual process is and not letting someone else's hysteria lead you astray. Did you actually read the whole bill? Katie PS. The whole 10 day thing is in the constitution if you want to google it. On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:33 PM, donkelly wrote: > But signed this year and only hints flew around about what was > happening. > > > > The lightning strike comes, not from reading negative press, but while > reading the whole bill. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Marian Cakarnis > > Date: 4/14/2010 11:47:03 AM > > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed > > > > Don't know where your news comes from, but I just looked it up and > this bill > > was passed on April 21, 2009. > > http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/show > > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chuck at grovenet.net Wed Apr 14 15:05:14 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:05:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Gas In-Reply-To: <971EC429-4F2D-41CC-B7F0-0DF302A549EE@verizon.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <971EC429-4F2D-41CC-B7F0-0DF302A549EE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC63C1A.2030406@grovenet.net> According th the article I read, it takes 1 ton of coal to make 1.5 barrels of oil. The US consumes approx 21 MILLION barrels of oil, per day. That's a lot of coal. And, remember that coal power accounts for about half of our country's electricity production. Utilities buy more than 90 percent of the coal mined in the United States, If we start using coal for fuel as well, how long will it take before our coal supplies start declining. The US hit peak oil in the '70s. Peak coal anyone? We keep forgetting, oil, gas, coal - these are NOT renewable resources. Once they're gone - they're gone. chuck Katie Allnutt wrote: > ??? > It is the burning of the gas that releases the most CO2. So simply > refining it in a more environmentally friendly way is sort of like > saying, 'hey honey I found a way to keep the dogs eyelashes from > falling out so we don't have a shedding problem anymore'. You can't > ignore the rest of the dog. > > And you have to look out for what they are not telling you. > Hey folks we have a way to refine gas without releasing CO2. Please > ignore the mercury and nitrous oxides we spew out by the ton because > we will repeat ad nauseam that it doesn't release CO2 in the refining. > > What else have they with held that you would need to know to make a > truly informed opinion? > > Katie > > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 15:24:05 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC621CA.1040601@jurislex.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> <4BC608A2.6050300@gmail.com> <4BC621CA.1040601@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC64085.4010108@gmail.com> I should have been clearer about the people I was describing. Many of those who are leading the Oregon Tea Party movement either had some political experience or have been catching on very quickly. Either way they have been doing a good deal of work preparing for the upcoming election and November. I'm sure some will go back to watching American Idol and stop reading the newspapers, but if they get a taste of victory in November it will motivate them. Too much and they'll think they won and will go home. Too little and many will be discouraged and won't come back. But that middle point will fuel this movement to 2012. So if you oppose the Tea Party movement you'll want to work to make sure that they are either too successful or fail miserably. Bit of a gamble I might say. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Sorry, Adam, it has been my experience that folks without a clue go > back to that same condition as soon as they find out that real > participation takes work!! What leads you to believe this time is > going to be any different?? > > bob "been there, done that" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/14/2010 11:25 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> What I have seen over the past year, mainly in Oregon, is that they >> have. The Tea Party movement is starting to learn and become involved >> in the political process. Whether or not you agree with their platform, >> they have the potential to shape the direction of American politics for >> years to come. It just takes time to learn. >> >> Adam >> >> Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> Hmmmm... so they're clueless. >>> Perhaps they should spend more time learning about the issues before making >>> assumptions about what they mean. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 16:50:25 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:50:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tidal wave fizzles fast In-Reply-To: <4BC64085.4010108@gmail.com> References: <4BC5C442.5080904@gmail.com> <4BC5F0A8.8060301@gmail.com> <53C543D7-A83C-4B10-A3E5-6B084128A469@teleport.com> <4BC60314.9060308@gmail.com> <4BC608A2.6050300@gmail.com> <4BC621CA.1040601@jurislex.com> <4BC64085.4010108@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Tea Party is not a unified group. There is the Sarah Palin pro John McCain group and the Sarah Palin anti John McCain group. There is the truly worried about deficits including the cost of war group and then there is the worried about deficits but only as it concerns health care group. And many other sub groups. Their strength is that in a bad economy everyone is unhappy about something and the government is slow ship to turn so they don't see much help really trickling down to individuals. So all the unhappy folks find other unhappy folks in the tea party. When it comes down to details is when they tend to break apart (as in the guy who founded the tea party was unhappy at their national convention that Sarah was paid a boat load of money and felt that the republicans were trying to absorb them for their own purposes.) This year the hard part will be how to tell the tea party effect from the natural mid year election result. In almost every mid year election the majority is either switched or at least greatly reduced. So even without a tea party democrats would be wise to expect losses in both the house and senate. How much credit will the tea party take if there is the normal turnover plus or minus one standard deviation? If they take credit for a natural shift will that be their rallying cry? We are as good as normal! (I tend to think not.) Is the normal amount of turnover the amount needed for that middle ground you describe? I don't know. I think that the timing of the economic recovery is what will drive what happens in 2012 more than what the tea party does. If it is really into a recovery then everyone will take credit and the most agitated will go back to American Idol. If the recovery is only as slow as it is now and there is still a lot of unemployment (which on my pessimistic days is what I predict) then the election in 2012 will still be very heated and the tea party movement will still be out there. And it isn't out of the realm of possibility that the tea party will be absorbing the republican party at that point. Katie (having fun looking into a cracked crystal ball...) On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I should have been clearer about the people I was describing. Many of > those who are leading the Oregon Tea Party movement either had some > political experience or have been catching on very quickly. Either > way > they have been doing a good deal of work preparing for the upcoming > election and November. I'm sure some will go back to watching > American > Idol and stop reading the newspapers, but if they get a taste of > victory > in November it will motivate them. > > Too much and they'll think they won and will go home. Too little and > many will be discouraged and won't come back. But that middle point > will fuel this movement to 2012. So if you oppose the Tea Party > movement you'll want to work to make sure that they are either too > successful or fail miserably. Bit of a gamble I might say. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> Sorry, Adam, it has been my experience that folks without a clue go >> back to that same condition as soon as they find out that real >> participation takes work!! What leads you to believe this time is >> going to be any different?? >> >> bob "been there, done that" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> On 4/14/2010 11:25 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> What I have seen over the past year, mainly in Oregon, is that they >>> have. The Tea Party movement is starting to learn and become >>> involved >>> in the political process. Whether or not you agree with their >>> platform, >>> they have the potential to shape the direction of American >>> politics for >>> years to come. It just takes time to learn. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>> >>>> Hmmmm... so they're clueless. >>>> Perhaps they should spend more time learning about the issues >>>> before making >>>> assumptions about what they mean. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 14 17:58:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:58:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed In-Reply-To: <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <46529C0E-7916-4033-9940-3DAC77F5E022@verizon.net> <4BC60B24.00002E.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <93007262BFB1476DB24A3A41AF449AAA@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <3F2E524A-35A1-44D1-B802-D864815140E6@teleport.com> OK... So this program expands the opportunities for young people, old people and veterans to volunteer to help American citizens while learning useful skills... sorta like the old CCC... which was remarkably effective during the Depression years, created many American landmarks and is still remembered fondly by those who participated in it. All in all, I much prefer public service programs to massive giveaways to corrupt bankers, who will reward themselves with massive bonuses and then let the economy crash again. WW On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Don't know where your news comes from, but I just looked it up and > this bill > was passed on April 21, 2009. > http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/show > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:36 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] HB 1388 Passed > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 22:02:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:02:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <4BC5FB18.000012.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FB18.000012.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8371319B-8F4C-4D85-8C2A-73885CE8D7E5@verizon.net> They say, "when you are in a hole and need to get out, the first step is to stop digging deeper". Our reliance on international food sources, massive energy sources, imported fuel sources, and micro-chip controls makes us subject to a variety of disruptions. One of them is the EMI pulse, another is solar flare activity. But, it can be something smaller like a rust virus attacking a single species of wheat, corn or soybeans. It can be political unrest or an earthquake in an important supply region. In some situations it could be a change in tax code that drives the disruption. If we want to have a more robust and stable economy we would be well served by having a true free market and true individual effort. From your Economics class, remember that a true free market has a wide variety of consumers and a wide variety of suppliers. Instead much of our economy has the 80-20 system where 20% of the companies control 80% of the market. In the case of corn, I think it is three companies control 95% of the market. Our dependence upon imported oil, which comes from a few major sources and goes to a few companies for processing, is another problem. We would be far better if we had thousands of local sources of motor fuel. David On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:27 AM, donkelly wrote: > Right on David. There is much we can do to help ourselves. Like the airborne troops surrounded in Germany, we don't need to be rescued. > > Don From chuck at grovenet.net Wed Apr 14 22:37:40 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (Chuck) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <8371319B-8F4C-4D85-8C2A-73885CE8D7E5@verizon.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FB18.000012.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <8371319B-8F4C-4D85-8C2A-73885CE8D7E5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <01A51F6F-3526-4BBE-A8B0-654DED9DE308@grovenet.net> And as Cuba has done, thousands of sources of good, locally grown, organic food. Chuck Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:02 PM, David Morelli wrote: > They say, "when you are in a hole and need to get out, the first > step is to stop digging deeper". Our reliance on international food > sources, massive energy sources, imported fuel sources, and micro- > chip controls makes us subject to a variety of disruptions. One of > them is the EMI pulse, another is solar flare activity. But, it can > be something smaller like a rust virus attacking a single species of > wheat, corn or soybeans. It can be political unrest or an > earthquake in an important supply region. In some situations it > could be a change in tax code that drives the disruption. > > If we want to have a more robust and stable economy we would be well > served by having a true free market and true individual effort. > From your Economics class, remember that a true free market has a > wide variety of consumers and a wide variety of suppliers. Instead > much of our economy has the 80-20 system where 20% of the companies > control 80% of the market. In the case of corn, I think it is three > companies control 95% of the market. > > Our dependence upon imported oil, which comes from a few major > sources and goes to a few companies for processing, is another > problem. We would be far better if we had thousands of local > sources of motor fuel. > > David > > On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:27 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> Right on David. There is much we can do to help ourselves. Like the >> airborne troops surrounded in Germany, we don't need to be rescued. >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 22:40:48 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:40:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I will vote democrat because..... In-Reply-To: <4BC607E0.000027.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <038701cadba7$ba910cd0$2fb32670$@com> <4BC607E0.000027.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don, I suppose it's fitting, that every time I see your name on a post, the two L's seem to drop off and I see the word "donkey" (sorry, just can't help it). But when you post such drivel as you have here, the word "donkey" takes on a new meaning. I've lurked here long enough to get a pretty good grasp of your MO on this list. You like to stir things up for the simple pleasure you get out of it. While it's true that some of your posts have evolved into highly spirited and intellectual debates, I've noticed that you are often caught with your intellectual pants down. Numerous responses to your posts have pointed out your many errors of fact and of judgment. You try to convince us of your superiority in knowing what is right and righteous, but you've been caught so many times either spreading untruths out of ignorance, or just plain out lying, that you've lost nearly all of your credibility. And without credibility what's left? Certainly not integrity. I'm certain you are laughing at us now (and especially at me, ) but the joke, I'm afraid is on you. You are the joke. You can always be counted on to drop a bomb on the list (like the garbage you posted below) and then wait and smile while everyone goes off in a tizzy. You seem to love chaos. Sadly, but your MO is getting old. It is an old tired trick to stir up a list like Grovenet, time and time again, if for nothing else than for the shear fun of it. Sometimes, however, it isn't fun. These are serious issues. Sometimes you come across as nothing more than an ignorant, arrogant tease. Dare I say donkey? You've taken a lot of pride in telling us all how learned you are. How well read you are. How literate in the history of this country and the constitution you are. But here's the downside. While I will give you the benefit of a doubt that you have indeed read all the books you claim to have read, I doubt you have comprehended anything. I gather you are a decent person, and that's at least a redeeming virtue, but it doesn't excuse your rabble-rousing for the pure sake of doing so. And it certainly doesn't excuse the sometimes hateful, bigoted, and mocking tones that lace many of your posts. This list has been nothing but kind and respectful to you (above and beyond the call at times). Unfortunately, you rarely reciprocate in-kind, and that's reason to say, "shame on you"... I'm under no false assumption that what I say here will change anything, but I wanted you to know what a donkey you have made of yourself. And if you are laughing, we are laughing harder. How does it feel to be a laughing stock? Think about it, because every time you submit something so inane as your last post, there is a roar of laughter pointed your way. Having said my piece, I will go back to lurking, because it's much more peaceful on the outside looking in. So carry on as you do, if you must, but be aware that your rub will eventually be your undoing, and you may someday find yourself banished to the nether lands where fools and Charlestons dwell, and where nobody in the real world with an ounce of sense will listen to anything you have to say. jimz On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:22 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > > Why this country is so messed up > > I will vote Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever > I > Want -- I've decided to marry my horse. > > I will vote Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a > gallon > Of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% > Isn't. > > I will vote Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job > of > Spending the money I earn than I would. > > I will vote Democrat because Freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is > Offended by it. > > I will vote Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad > guys > Will stop what they are doing because they now think we are good people. > > I will vote Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I > know > That my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and > Thieves. > > I will vote Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it > will > Rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten > years > If I don't start driving a Prius. > > I will vote Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of > millions > Of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates alive. > > I will vote Democrat because I think illegal aliens have a right to free > health > Care, education, and Social Security benefits. > > I will vote Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed > to > Make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away > to > The government for redistribution as the Democrats see fit. > > I will vote Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite The > Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would never get > their > Agendas past the voters. > > I will vote Democrat because my head is so firmly planted in the sand that > it > Is unlikely that I'll ever have another point of view! > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 14 22:48:24 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:48:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Gas In-Reply-To: <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FD2E.000019.03272@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1A189F59-4140-4859-9FEF-8EC6DF6BC55E@verizon.net> Let me see. A ton of coal weighs about 2000 pounds. 1.5 barrels of oil weighs about 400-500 pounds. So what happens to the other 1500-1600 pounds of coal? If they are not burning the missing coal ( which makes a lot of CO2 ), why not use it to make another 4.5 barrels of oil? Wait. Look at the words. See the word "liberating"? The process mines a ton of coal, burns 3/4 of it, and traps the CO2, in the process of making 1/4 ton of oil. So, where are they putting the trapped CO2? David On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > Researchers in Texas and elsewhere announced yesterday that they have found a cheap way to refine cheap gasoline without liberating CO2. > > A ton of cheap coal costs $18 and from it you can make 1.5 barrels of clean oil which will yield 42 gallons of gasoline, at a cost of 24 cents per gallon. > > Far as I can tell, this breakthrough was accomplished by educational facilities and private industry without financial help of the government. > > America and Canada holds trillions of tons of this low grade coal. > > Don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 06:51:36 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:51:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party Protests Message-ID: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> I guess if you can't beat them, attack them! http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2010/04/school_officials_investigate_beaverton_teacher_who_urged_people_to_crash_the_tea_party.html Adam From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Apr 15 07:52:26 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:52:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party Protests In-Reply-To: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> This teacher has to be a Republican. No democrat would be that mean and angry. Remember this when you talk about the racists in the Tea Party movement. This guy says he will go to TP events dressed as Hitler and stuff. I think this kind of thing has been going on between Reps and Dems at their events too. It is why I'm opposed to the Open Primary stuff. It turned the primaries into people voting for the worst for the opposition party. How else do you explain Obama v McCain when you consider all the others running? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Adam Mayer > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:52 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party > Protests > > I guess if you can't beat them, attack them! > > http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2010/04/school_officials_ > investigate_beaverton_teacher_who_urged_people_to_crash_the_tea_party.h > tml > > Adam > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 08:00:44 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:00:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party Protests In-Reply-To: <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> Message-ID: <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> This article from Fox news mentions that he was encouraging collecting social security numbers from people at the Tea Party protests. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/14/oregon-probes-teacher-determined-demolish-tea-party/ Could be classified as identity theft............... Adam Steven wrote: > This teacher has to be a Republican. No democrat would be that mean and > angry. > > Remember this when you talk about the racists in the Tea Party movement. > This guy says he will go to TP events dressed as Hitler and stuff. > > I think this kind of thing has been going on between Reps and Dems at their > events too. It is why I'm opposed to the Open Primary stuff. It turned the > primaries into people voting for the worst for the opposition party. How > else do you explain Obama v McCain when you consider all the others running? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Adam Mayer >> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:52 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party >> Protests >> >> I guess if you can't beat them, attack them! >> >> http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2010/04/school_officials_ >> investigate_beaverton_teacher_who_urged_people_to_crash_the_tea_party.h >> tml >> >> Adam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 15 08:23:34 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:23:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good book In-Reply-To: <8371319B-8F4C-4D85-8C2A-73885CE8D7E5@verizon.net> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C24F3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8C25305@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC49914.7080802@grovenet.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8DB035C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC4BAC8.00003A.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC4D1AA.2000102@grovenet.net> <4BC5FB18.000012.03272@DON-B2514E06367> <8371319B-8F4C-4D85-8C2A-73885CE8D7E5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <87AF396D-B65D-4DFB-B8B4-B7783B81927A@teleport.com> All correct, David-- unfortunately. Also unfortunately, we have been deprived of our ability to sustain ourselves as an independent nation by the large corporations systematically transferring our essential industries (and jobs) overseas-- with the active connivance of our own government, though irrational tax advantages for "multinationals" and the removal of time-tested controls over the major financial institutions. We could argue all day over which political party is responsible, but I'd prefer not to, since the ultimate responsibility lies with the corporations that engineered our economic disemboweling. I recall being warned decades ago that corporate "persons" are not patriots, and that greed has no nationality. Can any political party or any President reverse this drain? I very much doubt it. The first step would be to revoke corporate "personhood," and our Supreme Court has just closed that door. Our government, if not actually owned, is effectively blackmailed by the corporations. So what can we ordinary, little, non-corporate persons do, aside from hoping to avoid war or solar flares and reverting to Third-World poverty and desperation? Will it do us any good to try to attract passing notice from the big multinational industries in their never- ending search for the very cheapest labor and the weakest environmental laws? We can, at least, learn to begin producing the basic essentials for ourselves-- through cooperative effort, since none of us have the money or the power to accomplish much alone. One example of this beginning (shameless plug) would be the community garden. Another would be a rebirth of the old food co-op, local artisan's workshops, transportation co-ops, etc. We cannot depend on the benevolence of Wal-Mart-- they are not in the benevolence business, and any major disruption in international trade, caused either by war or natural disaster, would send our intricate, debt-dependent financial and commercial network into collapse. What we little, ordinary, real people can do is gain the skills, social connections and self-confidence to cope and survive-- in short, to sustain ourselves, through cooperative effort. WW On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:02 PM, David Morelli wrote: > They say, "when you are in a hole and need to get out, the first > step is to stop digging deeper". Our reliance on international > food sources, massive energy sources, imported fuel sources, and > micro-chip controls makes us subject to a variety of disruptions. > One of them is the EMI pulse, another is solar flare activity. > But, it can be something smaller like a rust virus attacking a > single species of wheat, corn or soybeans. It can be political > unrest or an earthquake in an important supply region. In some > situations it could be a change in tax code that drives the > disruption. > > If we want to have a more robust and stable economy we would be > well served by having a true free market and true individual > effort. From your Economics class, remember that a true free > market has a wide variety of consumers and a wide variety of > suppliers. Instead much of our economy has the 80-20 system where > 20% of the companies control 80% of the market. In the case of > corn, I think it is three companies control 95% of the market. > > Our dependence upon imported oil, which comes from a few major > sources and goes to a few companies for processing, is another > problem. We would be far better if we had thousands of local > sources of motor fuel. > > David > > On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:27 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> Right on David. There is much we can do to help ourselves. Like >> the airborne troops surrounded in Germany, we don't need to be >> rescued. >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 15 09:19:45 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:19:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes Message-ID: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100415/639f0bed/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/639f0bed/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/639f0bed/attachment.png From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 09:37:44 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:37:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC740D8.2000307@gmail.com> The Tea Party protests are not only about taxes, it's mostly about the wasteful spending of government. You can't spend your way out of a recession. The only exception to that was......................................never? Adam Bob Browning wrote: > I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this until > this evening after they return from a hard day of parading around, but > this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! > > bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Yahoo! News > > > Tax Day rhetoric aside, Americans' bills are lower > > By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER, Associated Press Writer > Wed Apr 14, 201011:36 pm ET > > WASHINGTON ? You wouldn't know it by the Tax Day rhetoric, but > Americans are paying lower taxes this year, even with increases passed > by many states to balance their budgets. Don't expect it to last. > > Congress cut individuals' federal taxes for this year by about $173 > billion shortly after President Barack Obama took office, dwarfing the > $28.6 billion in increases by states. > > In the next few years, however, many can expect to pay more. Some > future increases were enacted as part of Obama's health care overhaul. > And former President George W. Bush's tax cuts expire in January. > Obama and the Democrats want to renew only some of them, thus raising > taxes for individuals making more than $200,000 and couples making > more than $250,000. > > As this year's April 15 federal deadline passes, the debate about > future tax increases has Republicans in Congress and conservatives > across the country portraying Democrats as tax-and-spend liberals even > before any new levies are approved. The discussion also is helping > frame the congressional elections this fall. > > "The fact is in the past year we have had more tax cuts than almost > anytime in our nation's history," said Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn. "It's > something that people don't realize because of the false rhetoric that > is spread throughout this Congress." > > Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, said > conservatives didn't see any need to wait before protesting. > > "I thought that we were going to have to wait until the tax increases > started to see popular unhappiness," Norquist said at a Capitol Hill > forum Wednesday. "Last year, people started reacting, the tea parties > started organizing, in reaction to spending too much. They didn't wait > for the tax increases to come." > > The massive economic recovery package enacted last year included about > $300 billion in tax cuts over 10 years. About $232 billion was in cuts > for individuals, nearly all in the first two years. > > The most generous was Obama's Making Work Pay credit, which gives > individuals up to $400 and couples up to $800 for 2009 and 2010. The > $1,000 child tax credit was expanded to more families, and the working > poor can qualify for as much as $5,657 from the Earned Income Tax Credit. > > There were also credits for qualified families who buy new homes or > make energy improvements to existing ones, as well as tax breaks to > help pay college tuition or buy new cars. > > "From investing in small business to buying a home or making it energy > efficient, to sending your children to college to buying a car, these > tax cuts are helping families and businesses across the country," said > Rep. Russ Carnahan, D-Mo. > > At the same time, many states raised taxes last year because they are > required by state constitutions to balance their budgets, even during > a recession. In all, states increased personal income taxes by $11.4 > billion, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. > They increased sales taxes by $7.2 billion and business taxes by $2 > billion. > > States also increased a number of other taxes, including levies on > alcohol, motor vehicles and tobacco, for an additional $8 billion. > > The biggest tax increase in the health care overhaul is limited to > individuals making more than $200,000 and couples making more than > $250,000, though other increases would hit lower income taxpayers. > > For the first time, the Medicare payroll tax would be applied to > investment income, beginning in 2013. A new 3.8 percent tax would be > imposed on interest, dividends, capital gains and other investment > income for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and couples > making more than $250,000. > > The bill also would increase the Medicare payroll tax by 0.9 > percentage point to 2.35 percent on wages above $200,000 for > individuals and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. > > "We know the tax man cometh, and over the next few years, boy, will he > be coming with a vengeance," said Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 15 10:44:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:44:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack TeaPartyProtests References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> About a month ago I heard about Jason Levins website, but then about a week ago he was outed on several patriotic groups websites. Apparently he rang a negative bell with many organizations not even members of the Tea Party. I can't say which party, if any, he belongs to, but it appears by the way he acts that he is not in tune with democrats or republicans, but at best on the fringe of the republican party not liked by the republican party. And Yes, if the Tea Party were not effective, they would not be a target of radicals. He may be a fringe part of the Coffee Party, but I set in on some of their meetings, and on average they do not support this type of activity- - - -they are into setting down and talking out issues, then deciding which issues they will support. Levin has not yet (as of yesterday) appeared on their radar screen. The Coffee Party has been described by different writers as socialists or communists. This could be smear talk, but the Coffee Party is clearly anti-Tea Party, with hopes to counter-balance public opinion. Goldman Sachs is back in the news again if anyone is interested in that type of government control. The thread seems endemic to the past several administrations (debatable of course) so cannot be laid on the head of the top dog of any single administration. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/15/2010 8:03:19 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack TeaPartyProtests This article from Fox news mentions that he was encouraging collecting social security numbers from people at the Tea Party protests. http://www.foxnews com/politics/2010/04/14/oregon-probes-teacher-determined-demolish-tea-party/ Could be classified as identity theft............... Adam Steven wrote: > This teacher has to be a Republican. No democrat would be that mean and > angry. > > Remember this when you talk about the racists in the Tea Party movement. > This guy says he will go to TP events dressed as Hitler and stuff. > > I think this kind of thing has been going on between Reps and Dems at their > events too. It is why I'm opposed to the Open Primary stuff. It turned the > primaries into people voting for the worst for the opposition party. How > else do you explain Obama v McCain when you consider all the others running? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Adam Mayer >> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:52 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party >> Protests >> >> I guess if you can't beat them, attack them! >> >> http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2010/04/school_officials_ >> investigate_beaverton_teacher_who_urged_people_to_crash_the_tea_party.h >> tml >> >> Adam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100415/b61640c9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/b61640c9/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100415/b61640c9/attachment.ksh From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 15 11:23:25 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:23:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics In-Reply-To: <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Grovenet has been inundated with slams against socialism in recent weeks. And we all know of the year-long travail over health care issues. I thought I'd look up some useful statistics. Here are the "leading" countries for infant mortality rates...see below...note any patterns? The US comes out 44th best for this single statistic. Babies have a better chance in many other places across the globe, including Canada and Cuba. I wonder how many of the places with better figures have a nationalized health care plan-or a mix such as we see in Scandinavian places. (Note...the CIA reports these figures)...along these lines, the US is only 38th in life expectancy (see the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy). Guess what? Many of the same places that deliver babies more safely also keep people alive longer than we do. I'll keep checking into such matters...educational levels, income disparity, welfare support, distribution of wealth, and so forth. Having lived in Japan and England, and having spent time in the Czech Republic and Canada...all of whom have very different approaches to politics and the relationship of the national government to the people served, I did not see that those places are unable to be compared to the US. We do have more ballistic missiles and upwards of 700 military bases around the world...so, we're tops there. --Mike United States 6.22 2009 est. 181 Northern Mariana Islands 6.00 2009 est. 182 Cuba 5.82 2009 est. 183 European Union 5.72 2009 est. 184 San Marino 5.53 2009 est. 185 Italy 5.51 2009 est. 186 Isle of Man 5.37 2009 est. 187 Taiwan 5.35 2009 est. 188 Greece 5.16 2009 est. 189 Ireland 5.05 2009 est. 190 Canada 5.04 2009 est. 191 Wallis and Futuna 5.02 2009 est. 192 Monaco 5.00 2009 est. 193 New Zealand 4.92 2009 est. 194 United Kingdom 4.85 2009 est. 195 Portugal 4.78 2009 est. 196 Australia 4.75 2009 est. 197 Jersey 4.73 2009 est. 198 Netherlands 4.73 2009 est. 199 Luxembourg 4.56 2009 est. 200 Belgium 4.44 2009 est. 201 Guernsey 4.43 2009 est. 202 Austria 4.42 2009 est. 203 Denmark 4.34 2009 est. 204 Korea, South 4.26 2009 est. 205 Liechtenstein 4.25 2009 est. 206 Slovenia 4.25 2009 est. 207 Israel 4.22 2009 est. 208 Spain 4.21 2009 est. 209 Switzerland 4.18 2009 est. 210 Germany 3.99 2009 est. 211 Czech Republic 3.79 2009 est. 212 Andorra 3.76 2009 est. 213 Malta 3.75 2009 est. 214 Norway 3.58 2009 est. 215 Anguilla 3.52 2009 est. 216 Finland 3.47 2009 est. 217 France 3.33 2009 est. 218 Iceland 3.23 2009 est. 219 Macau 3.22 2009 est. 220 Hong Kong 2.92 2009 est. 221 Japan 2.79 2009 est. 222 Sweden 2.75 2009 est. 223 Bermuda 2.46 2009 est. 224 Singapore 2.31 2009 est. [cid:image002.gif at 01CADC8D.CB0FCBF0] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1096 bytes Desc: image002.gif Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/ea906d1f/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 15 11:41:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:41:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BC75DE9.000015.00244@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Mike for the links. I will read every one of them today. Meanwhile there is another link several might find interesting. -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/15/2010 11:23:40 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics Grovenet has been inundated with slams against socialism in recent weeks. And we all know of the year-long travail over health care issues. I thought I'd look up some useful statistics. Here are the "leading" countries for infant mortality rates...see below...note any patterns? The US comes out 44th best for this single statistic. Babies have a better chance in many other places across the globe, including Canada and Cuba. I wonder how many of the places with better figures have a nationalized health care plan-or a mix such as we see in Scandinavian places. (Note...the CIA reports these figures)...along these lines, the US is only 38th in life expectancy (see the table at http://en.wikipedia org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy). Guess what? Many of the same places that deliver babies more safely also keep people alive longer than we do. I'll keep checking into such matters...educational levels, income disparity, welfare support, distribution of wealth, and so forth. Having lived in Japan and England, and having spent time in the Czech Republic and Canada.. all of whom have very different approaches to politics and the relationship of the national government to the people served, I did not see that those places are unable to be compared to the US. We do have more ballistic missiles and upwards of 700 military bases around the world...so, we're tops there. --Mike United States 6.22 2009 est. 181 Northern Mariana Islands 6.00 2009 est. 182 Cuba 5.82 2009 est. 183 European Union 5.72 2009 est. 184 San Marino 5.53 2009 est. 185 Italy 5.51 2009 est. 186 Isle of Man 5.37 2009 est. 187 Taiwan 5.35 2009 est. 188 Greece 5.16 2009 est. 189 Ireland 5.05 2009 est. 190 Canada 5.04 2009 est. 191 Wallis and Futuna 5.02 2009 est. 192 Monaco 5.00 2009 est. 193 New Zealand 4.92 2009 est. 194 United Kingdom 4.85 2009 est. 195 Portugal 4.78 2009 est. 196 Australia 4.75 2009 est. 197 Jersey 4.73 2009 est. 198 Netherlands 4.73 2009 est. 199 Luxembourg 4.56 2009 est. 200 Belgium 4.44 2009 est. 201 Guernsey 4.43 2009 est. 202 Austria 4.42 2009 est. 203 Denmark 4.34 2009 est. 204 Korea, South 4.26 2009 est. 205 Liechtenstein 4.25 2009 est. 206 Slovenia 4.25 2009 est. 207 Israel 4.22 2009 est. 208 Spain 4.21 2009 est. 209 Switzerland 4.18 2009 est. 210 Germany 3.99 2009 est. 211 Czech Republic 3.79 2009 est. 212 Andorra 3.76 2009 est. 213 Malta 3.75 2009 est. 214 Norway 3.58 2009 est. 215 Anguilla 3.52 2009 est. 216 Finland 3.47 2009 est. 217 France 3.33 2009 est. 218 Iceland 3.23 2009 est. 219 Macau 3.22 2009 est. 220 Hong Kong 2.92 2009 est. 221 Japan 2.79 2009 est. 222 Sweden 2.75 2009 est. 223 Bermuda 2.46 2009 est. 224 Singapore 2.31 2009 est. [cid:image002.gif at 01CADC8D.CB0FCBF0] ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100415/80b113a2/attachment-0002.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/80b113a2/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100415/80b113a2/attachment-0003.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 15 11:55:43 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:55:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party Protests In-Reply-To: <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> Message-ID: <005701cadccd$40aa27e0$c1fe77a0$@com> Steven, > From: Steven > > Remember this when you talk about the racists in the Tea > Party movement. This guy says he will go to TP events > dressed as Hitler and stuff. That's a twisting of what he's said. It's a fabrication perpetuated by Fox "News". Read the Fox "News" article again, very closely, and you'll notice they credit him with saying that, but don't actually quote him (grounds for legal trouble). "He has said he would seek to embarrass Tea Partiers by attending their rallies dressed as Adolf Hitler, carrying signs bearing racist, sexist and anti-gay epithets, and acting as offensively as possible - anything short of throwing punches." Here's what he actually said: "He emphasized that his group is non-violent, and not interested in 'perpetuating racism, homophobia or misogyny.' Levin said that 'members are free to do as they wish,' but if violence breaks out at a tea party rally on Thursday, or more epithets like the ones thrown around during the health care debate are heard, it won't be because of his group. He explained the distinction to me this way: If you see someone wearing a Nazi uniform at a tea party, it could be one of his members. If you see someone wearing a Nazi uniform throwing a rock, it's definitely not one of his members." I can see the stretch that was made from a Nazi uniform to Hitler, but it's not accurate. He doesn't even indicate he'd be wearing one, only that it's possible that someone wearing one would be a member of his group. Fox "News" attempts to credit him with choosing to wear one. While the wearing of the uniform is one thing (and not inherently wrong), the use of racial verbiage is another (and clearly wrong). Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 15 12:08:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:08:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea PartyProtests References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <005701cadccd$40aa27e0$c1fe77a0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC76418.00001E.00244@DON-B2514E06367> The Tea Party has commented about him, but not in the manner these two sources suggest. Tea Party says he will bring his signs and attempt to blend in with the crowd. They do not expect violence by him, but they expect he will try to do what he told them he would do, try to make them look as bad as possible. The Coffee Party will also be there, but so far they have/has not commented on him at all. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/15/2010 11:56:00 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea PartyProtests Steven, > From: Steven > > Remember this when you talk about the racists in the Tea > Party movement. This guy says he will go to TP events > dressed as Hitler and stuff. That's a twisting of what he's said. It's a fabrication perpetuated by Fox "News". Read the Fox "News" article again, very closely, and you'll notice they credit him with saying that, but don't actually quote him (grounds for legal trouble). "He has said he would seek to embarrass Tea Partiers by attending their rallies dressed as Adolf Hitler, carrying signs bearing racist, sexist and anti-gay epithets, and acting as offensively as possible - anything short of throwing punches." Here's what he actually said: "He emphasized that his group is non-violent, and not interested in 'perpetuating racism, homophobia or misogyny.' Levin said that 'members are free to do as they wish,' but if violence breaks out at a tea party rally on Thursday, or more epithets like the ones thrown around during the health care debate are heard, it won't be because of his group. He explained the distinction to me this way: If you see someone wearing a Nazi uniform at a tea party, it could be one of his members. If you see someone wearing a Nazi uniform throwing a rock, it's definitely not one of his members." I can see the stretch that was made from a Nazi uniform to Hitler, but it's not accurate. He doesn't even indicate he'd be wearing one, only that it's possible that someone wearing one would be a member of his group. Fox "News" attempts to credit him with choosing to wear one. While the wearing of the uniform is one thing (and not inherently wrong), the use of racial verbiage is another (and clearly wrong). Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100415/9e50dcbe/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 15 14:12:40 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:12:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Correcting some unconstitutionalities? Message-ID: <007701cadce0$6278f640$276ae2c0$@com> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gd8532foDasi_HtAzi9JolkMVl qQD9F3MPM01 Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 15 14:48:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:48:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Beaverton Teacher Attempts To Attack Tea Party Protests In-Reply-To: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5600E9FE-52C6-47BB-B774-D62158411B7C@teleport.com> Well, lemme see... First we have a "grassroots" organization whose members are encouraged by right-wing organizers like FreedomWorks to take over town hall meetings, shout down their elected representatives, set up a "relay" system of yelling to drown out reasoned debate, promulgate wackadoo rumors and slanders against our elected President, and denounce anyone disagreeing with them as socialists, communists, nazis, etc. So now we have one grassroots individual starting a grassroots campaign encouraging people to infiltrate the Tea Party and make them look like boorish, ignorant dolts. In return, he is ferociously denounced, threatened, and his personal contact information and home address are thoughtfully published for the benefit of the real-- but conveniently deniable-- violent nutzoids who will automatically gravitate to any movement grounded in anger. Oh, yes. Obviously this Levins guy is the villain here. On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I guess if you can't beat them, attack them! > > http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2010/04/ > school_officials_investigate_beaverton_teacher_who_urged_people_to_cra > sh_the_tea_party.html > > Adam > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 15 15:45:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:45:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BC740D8.2000307@gmail.com> References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> <4BC740D8.2000307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <060AE7CD-5151-4EBD-BCAF-33F671967B35@teleport.com> Define waste of tax dollars... Paying for the health care of the mentally ill and the indigent, or... Pounding trillions down a rat hole in Iraq? Extending the unemployment benefits that barely keep many job-seeking Americans afloat, or... Continuing the complex tax dodges benefiting corporations that ship American jobs overseas? But you get the general idea... one can continue such examples ad infinitum. One party's "waste" is another party's bread-and-butter issue... WW On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > The Tea Party protests are not only about taxes, it's mostly about the > wasteful spending of government. > > You can't spend your way out of a recession. The only exception to > that > was......................................never? > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this until >> this evening after they return from a hard day of parading around, >> but >> this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! >> >> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> Yahoo! News >> >> >> Tax Day rhetoric aside, Americans' bills are lower >> >> By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER, Associated Press Writer >> Wed Apr 14, 201011:36 pm ET >> >> WASHINGTON ? You wouldn't know it by the Tax Day rhetoric, but >> Americans are paying lower taxes this year, even with increases >> passed >> by many states to balance their budgets. Don't expect it to last. >> >> Congress cut individuals' federal taxes for this year by about $173 >> billion shortly after President Barack Obama took office, dwarfing >> the >> $28.6 billion in increases by states. >> >> In the next few years, however, many can expect to pay more. Some >> future increases were enacted as part of Obama's health care >> overhaul. >> And former President George W. Bush's tax cuts expire in January. >> Obama and the Democrats want to renew only some of them, thus raising >> taxes for individuals making more than $200,000 and couples making >> more than $250,000. >> >> As this year's April 15 federal deadline passes, the debate about >> future tax increases has Republicans in Congress and conservatives >> across the country portraying Democrats as tax-and-spend liberals >> even >> before any new levies are approved. The discussion also is helping >> frame the congressional elections this fall. >> >> "The fact is in the past year we have had more tax cuts than almost >> anytime in our nation's history," said Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn. >> "It's >> something that people don't realize because of the false rhetoric >> that >> is spread throughout this Congress." >> >> Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, said >> conservatives didn't see any need to wait before protesting. >> >> "I thought that we were going to have to wait until the tax increases >> started to see popular unhappiness," Norquist said at a Capitol Hill >> forum Wednesday. "Last year, people started reacting, the tea parties >> started organizing, in reaction to spending too much. They didn't >> wait >> for the tax increases to come." >> >> The massive economic recovery package enacted last year included >> about >> $300 billion in tax cuts over 10 years. About $232 billion was in >> cuts >> for individuals, nearly all in the first two years. >> >> The most generous was Obama's Making Work Pay credit, which gives >> individuals up to $400 and couples up to $800 for 2009 and 2010. The >> $1,000 child tax credit was expanded to more families, and the >> working >> poor can qualify for as much as $5,657 from the Earned Income Tax >> Credit. >> >> There were also credits for qualified families who buy new homes or >> make energy improvements to existing ones, as well as tax breaks to >> help pay college tuition or buy new cars. >> >> "From investing in small business to buying a home or making it >> energy >> efficient, to sending your children to college to buying a car, these >> tax cuts are helping families and businesses across the country," >> said >> Rep. Russ Carnahan, D-Mo. >> >> At the same time, many states raised taxes last year because they are >> required by state constitutions to balance their budgets, even during >> a recession. In all, states increased personal income taxes by $11.4 >> billion, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. >> They increased sales taxes by $7.2 billion and business taxes by $2 >> billion. >> >> States also increased a number of other taxes, including levies on >> alcohol, motor vehicles and tobacco, for an additional $8 billion. >> >> The biggest tax increase in the health care overhaul is limited to >> individuals making more than $200,000 and couples making more than >> $250,000, though other increases would hit lower income taxpayers. >> >> For the first time, the Medicare payroll tax would be applied to >> investment income, beginning in 2013. A new 3.8 percent tax would be >> imposed on interest, dividends, capital gains and other investment >> income for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and couples >> making more than $250,000. >> >> The bill also would increase the Medicare payroll tax by 0.9 >> percentage point to 2.35 percent on wages above $200,000 for >> individuals and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. >> >> "We know the tax man cometh, and over the next few years, boy, >> will he >> be coming with a vengeance," said Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 15 16:20:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:20:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics In-Reply-To: <4BC75DE9.000015.00244@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC75DE9.000015.00244@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <009701cadcf2$4ebb1400$ec313c00$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Meanwhile there is another link several might find interesting. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The attachment was an email you received from somewhere else. It has many links in it. However, I guessed this is the one you're referring to with the statement above. Is that correct? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=140897 Thanks, Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 15 21:20:26 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:20:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public benefits, I sent money to our various governments. Washington county and Forest Grove got their share earlier this year, but they got enough. As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was actually smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted Gross Income was up slightly. David On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this until this evening after they return from a hard day of parading around, but this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! > > bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 15 21:28:46 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:28:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: It does seem like the welfare is being spread far and wide as far as corporations go too. I heard Exxon made billions in profit and their federal taxes were 0, as they have been for a while. Those tax loopholes written in to benefit specific companies sure come in handy. Katie On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:20 PM, David Morelli wrote: > In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public > benefits, I sent money to our various governments. Washington > county and Forest Grove got their share earlier this year, but they > got enough. > > As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was > actually smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted > Gross Income was up slightly. > > David > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this >> until this evening after they return from a hard day of parading >> around, but this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! >> >> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Thu Apr 15 21:33:07 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:33:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <52ED1A4EC76B44CC9573A2C6F11C6092@JeffVAIO> Personally, I wish I had a huge tax bill. In my opinion, those who pay the most in taxes are the ones who have the most resources to live well. Maybe people would see this as a good thing if we gave out awards. Perhaps Forest Grove could award a plaque to the 5 or 10 people who paid the most taxes to the city. Would that get everyone else to compete for the award? -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:20 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public benefits, > I sent money to our various governments. Washington county and Forest > Grove got their share earlier this year, but they got enough. > > As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was actually > smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted Gross Income was up > slightly. > > David > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this until >> this evening after they return from a hard day of parading around, but >> this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! >> >> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 15 22:04:50 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:04:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <12D46CCA-A4CC-4F6E-8356-90B91A02754E@verizon.net> On Apr 15, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > ...(Note...the CIA reports these figures)... The CIA factbook also agglomerates the figures if someone doesn't want to got to each individual country. infant mortality (#180) there are 44 better than US https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html (I see that Hong Kong, Japan, Sweden, Bermuda & Singapore are 1/2 our rate) death rate (#99) there are 123 better than US. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html Military spending (#28) there are 145 that spend a lower % than US https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html education spending (#56) there are 55 that spend a higher % than US https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2206rank.html The United States is a big country. population (#3) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html size (#3) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2147rank.html China has 4 to 4.5 times our population density in roughly the same area, and India has 11-12 times our population density because they have 1/3 the area. David From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 15 22:17:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:17:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Gosh, I wonder if the tea party approves of zero tax rates? Who will pay the Coast Guard to protect the off shore oil rigs? Or pay the Coast Guard to recover ship's crews from pirates? Sorry, I got carried away. My bad. Exxon can pay the ransom for the ship, and the crew is expendable. David On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:28 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > It does seem like the welfare is being spread far and wide as far as corporations go too. > I heard Exxon made billions in profit and their federal taxes were 0, as they have been for a while. > Those tax loopholes written in to benefit specific companies sure come in handy. > > Katie From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 00:14:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:14:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> Message-ID: <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Steven, I am singularly unaware if any news agency having set 60 minutes aside to discuss the missing birth certificate, though it has been briefly mentioned in many broadcasts. But several lawyers with professional help have investigated same and have filed lawsuits in federal courts. In each case so far the courts have refused to issue discovery orders, ruling instead that the American public has no standing to sue a setting president. Do the American people have standing in court to sue the president based on the right to know?. So that is stalemate number one, but there may be new doors opening. A Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, and current medical doctor in the US Army, refused to deploy a second time to Afghanistan because he believes the president is not legitimate, so cannot give orders to the military commanders as commander in chief until he produces proof he is a natural born citizen of the united states, therefore a legitimate president. The soldier day before yesterday was threatened with court marshal by his commander, but then a strange thing (no explanation yet) happened yesterday and the soldier was reassigned instead to Brooks Medical Center in San Antonio Texas. So is the court Marshall off? Or did the president order that he not be court Marshalled. You all who know a little about courts will know that a person charged with a crime has a right to prove innocence. The accused also has a right to discovery, to force the president to provide a certified copy of his birth certificate to prove his legal right to be president, for one example. The president knows the law as before becoming president he was a lawyer, so the example given above could loom large to him, be a huge threat to his credibility. So is the president afraid that some court order will out him despite his expensive efforts to hide his past? Any mind readers here? Don -------Original Message------- From: Steven Date: 04/13/10 07:08:54 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. Here is a question. Where is the 60 minutes piece on the birth certificate. Or any other source? Why has no one investigated this? Regardless of for or against it, the subject seems to make a good investigative news piece. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/2861f434/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 00:37:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:37:06 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC813A2.000020.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Katie, I think like others have expressed on this list that a company based in America should pay taxes on their income from any foreign source. It all broadly falls under leveling the playing field. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 04/15/10 22:34:57 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes It does seem like the welfare is being spread far and wide as far as corporations go too. I heard Exxon made billions in profit and their federal taxes were 0, as they have been for a while. Those tax loopholes written in to benefit specific companies sure come in handy. Katie On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:20 PM, David Morelli wrote: > In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public > benefits, I sent money to our various governments. Washington > county and Forest Grove got their share earlier this year, but they > got enough. > > As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was > actually smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted > Gross Income was up slightly. > > David > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this >> until this evening after they return from a hard day of parading >> around, but this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! >> >> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/17855f50/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 00:45:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:45:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> <52ED1A4EC76B44CC9573A2C6F11C6092@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BC815AA.000023.03712@DON-B2514E06367> -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 04/15/10 21:29:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Personally, I wish I had a huge tax bill. In my opinion, those who pay the most in taxes are the ones who have the most resources to live well. Maybe people would see this as a good thing if we gave out awards. Perhaps Forest Grove could award a plaque to the 5 or 10 people who paid the most taxes to the city. Would that get everyone else to compete for the award? -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:20 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public benefits, > I sent money to our various governments. Washington county and Forest > Grove got their share earlier this year, but they got enough. > > As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was actually > smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted Gross Income was up > slightly. > > David > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this until >> this evening after they return from a hard day of parading around, but >> this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! >> >> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning Violence in New Orleans meeting: GOP Official & Boyfriend Savagely Beaten for Wearing Sarah Palin Pins in New Orleans. Allee Bautsch, chief campaign fundraiser for Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal And her boyfriend Joe Brown, were savagely beaten Friday night in New Orleans After leaving a Republican party fundraising dinner by a group of thugs who Reportedly targeted the couple because they were wearing Sarah Palin Pins. Bautch?s leg was broken and Brown incurred a broken jaw and nose as well as a Concussion. Did any hear if it was CAIR that delivered the beatings? Don, trying to eat and type. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/4d66be7b/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 01:40:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:40:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC75DE9.000015.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <009701cadcf2$4ebb1400$ec313c00$@com> Message-ID: <4BC82281.000035.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Yes, that is the main one Jeff. I was wondering if he would be charged with a crime and court Marshalled, but today it appears he will not be charged, instead he was assigned as a doctor to Brooks Medical Center in San Antonio, TX. Does someone not want the case to actually go to trial? Meanwhile today, two other soldiers have joined in supporting him. This could get real interesting. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/15/2010 4:21:06 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Meanwhile there is another link several might find interesting. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The attachment was an email you received from somewhere else. It has many links in it. However, I guessed this is the one you're referring to with the statement above. Is that correct? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=140897 Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/afd8fea1/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 01:41:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:41:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics References: <4BC719E8.3080405@gmail.com> <000601cadcab$43e3c780$cbab5680$@net> <4BC72A1C.5070500@gmail.com> <4BC7507C.00000D.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D8F5EE90@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BC75DE9.000015.00244@DON-B2514E06367> <009701cadcf2$4ebb1400$ec313c00$@com> Message-ID: <4BC822C7.000038.03712@DON-B2514E06367> I just saw the point Jeff and will try to focus on one link and eliminate the rest of the tree. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/15/2010 4:21:06 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Interesting statistics Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Meanwhile there is another link several might find interesting. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The attachment was an email you received from somewhere else. It has many links in it. However, I guessed this is the one you're referring to with the statement above. Is that correct? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=140897 Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/aea27759/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 09:37:35 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:37:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0F2DBEC4513B4D82A809EEF275B60335@EdDaviePC> Forget it. It's a dead issue! Ed From: donkelly Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 12:14 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 10:23:29 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:23:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <875686F1-C6DA-4BE9-ABA6-3F7D52FFAD9E@verizon.net> On Apr 16, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: ...snip > > > You all who know a little about courts will know that a person > charged with > a crime has a right to prove innocence. The accused also has a > right to > discovery, to force the president to provide a certified copy of > his birth > certificate to prove his legal right to be president, for one example. > > > .... I'm not sure what country you live in Don, but here in the USA the accused does not have to prove their innocence. The accuser has to prove the charges. That is where the phrase 'innocent until proven guilty' comes from. Katie From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 10:27:15 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:27:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BC813A2.000020.03712@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC73CA1.3060803@jurislex.com> <4BC813A2.000020.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: I'm glad to hear you agree with me. Or at least that is how I interpret this post. Katie On Apr 16, 2010, at 12:37 AM, donkelly wrote: > Katie, I think like others have expressed on this list that a > company based > in America should pay taxes on their income from any foreign > source. It all > broadly falls under leveling the playing field. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Katie Allnutt > > Date: 04/15/10 22:34:57 > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > > > It does seem like the welfare is being spread far and wide as far as > > corporations go too. > > I heard Exxon made billions in profit and their federal taxes were 0, > > as they have been for a while. > > Those tax loopholes written in to benefit specific companies sure > > come in handy. > > > > Katie > > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:20 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > > >> In honor of April 15th, and in thanksgiving for the many public > >> benefits, I sent money to our various governments. Washington > >> county and Forest Grove got their share earlier this year, but they > >> got enough. > >> > >> As Bob pointed out, the dollars cost of the Federal bite was > >> actually smaller this year than last, event though our Adjusted > >> Gross Income was up slightly. > >> > >> David > >> > >> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> > >>> I realize all the T-partiers will not get a chance to read this > >>> until this evening after they return from a hard day of parading > >>> around, but this is the facts, like 'em or not ! ! ! > >>> > >>> bob "we cannot keep going with taxes so low" browning > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 16 11:12:23 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:12:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Message-ID: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141293 Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 16 11:35:22 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:35:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> Message-ID: <1DBCE425-DE1B-47FF-AA87-1558507F03E7@teleport.com> Lovely. Notice how they immediately work the old dependable switcheroo... people who disapprove intolerance are themselves intolerant-- of intolerance. On Apr 16, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141293 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From christianamayer at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 12:02:58 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:02:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya Message-ID: I believe that if there was solid evidence of this Hilary Clinton would have used it in her campaign. At the very least I think that John McCain might have brought it up. Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 16 12:05:18 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:05:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . . . . Message-ID: <4BC8B4EE.3030508@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100416/6898d4a8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/6898d4a8/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/6898d4a8/attachment.png From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 16 12:13:04 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . . . . In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:05:18 -0700 Message-ID: <5239-4BC8B6C0-340@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> "PHOOEY" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100416/d351df20/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 16 12:22:09 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:22:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100416/887eb7ab/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 12:23:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:23:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> Message-ID: <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=3610 I guess when it bulldozes over parental religious rights and values. But I am no where near up on the tree of all issues growing from the religious root. Parents owe it to their children to install family values and morality. Make good reliable politicians. I don't support any of the hate part, but don't try to force immorality on my children, grand children, or great grand children, of whom collectively total 24. I don't pay taxes to support immorality being taught in schools. That would make me angry. I think they should keep the racial biases outside of the education system. Kids get along with other kids just fine, and they make their own decisions. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/16/2010 11:12:33 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141293 Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/a9351d71/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 12:26:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:26:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <1DBCE425-DE1B-47FF-AA87-1558507F03E7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC8B9DE.00001D.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Who is they in this question, the news reporters? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/16/2010 11:35:09 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Lovely. Notice how they immediately work the old dependable switcheroo... people who disapprove intolerance are themselves intolerant-- of intolerance. On Apr 16, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141293 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/31611958/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 16 12:44:11 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:44:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=3610 > > I guess when it bulldozes over parental religious rights and values. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So parents, as a function of their religion, have the right to teach hate and intolerance and that doing so, somehow, is a family value? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Parents owe it to their children to install family values and > morality. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Of course. It's unfortunate that so many fail that owing. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I don't support any of the hate part, but don't try to force > immorality on my children, grand children, or great grand children, > of whom collectively total 24. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Immorality involves the act itself, not tolerance of it. No one is *promoting* elements you don't agree with. Rather, they are merely saying, you may not agree with them, but you can't act out with hateful words or behavior because of your disagreement with them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I don't pay taxes to support immorality being taught in schools. > That would make me angry. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If it makes you angry, your angry is misplaced and misguided by a misunderstanding of the very basic building blocks of our society -- words and what they mean. When a school counselor tells a troublemaking student that they can't use hate words towards another child simply because of that other child's race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. or their parents' race, sexual orientation, religion, etc., they are not teaching immorality. They are teaching tolerance. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 12:55:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:55:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . .. . References: <5239-4BC8B6C0-340@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BC8C0A9.00002A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Good response Hoss. Too bad that money talks louder than American's voices. -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/16/2010 12:13:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But,why am I not surprised . . .. ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/f6c6ffec/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 16 13:00:46 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:00:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . .. . In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:55:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <5231-4BC8C1EE-4268@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Don.... Dr "M" said Hi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100416/fcc54ec5/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 13:02:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:02:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . . . . References: <4BC8B4EE.3030508@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC8C237.00002D.03068@DON-B2514E06367> At the rate of a half million dollars per job, where does that leave the common tax payer? If the government were a regular business, it would be broke and in debt for decades. The only thing that keeps government afloat is us tax paying donkeys. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/16/2010 12:05:38 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Ah, money talks!! But, why am I not surprised . . . . . bob "let the article speak for itself" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Stimulus a boon in SC, where many didn't want it By MEG KINNARD, Associated Press Writer Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:26 am ET AIKEN, S.C. ? A majority of people in South Carolina didn't vote for Barack Obama and many didn't want any part of his stimulus cash, and folks in a particularly poor, hard-hit swath near the Georgia line were no exception. Until the money showed up. About $1.6 billion was used to create 3,100 temporary jobs in a rural corner of the state cleaning up the Savannah River Site, which already employed about 9,000 and churned out radioactive metals for the nation's nuclear arsenal during the Cold War. "I am convinced it's what kept Aiken's economy stronger than most communities during these poor economic times," said David Jamison, president of the chamber of commerce in that solidly Republican city just north of the nuclear facility. "I think it has worked exactly like the way Washington had in mind. ... I see it every single day." Indeed, opposition to the president and the stimulus were fierce in traditionally conservative South Carolina, which Republican John McCain carried comfortably in the 2008 presidential election. GOP Gov. Mark Sanford led angry residents in the charge to keep stimulus money for education out of the state, saying it would ultimately leave the economy in worse shape when the money dries up next year. So far, though, that chunk of the $787 billion appears to be doing what the president promised: keep unemployment rates already among the highest in the nation from skyrocketing and give residents some hope that they could fight through the worst economic decline since the Great Depression. The recession has wiped out 8.2 million U.S. jobs, making competition for openings fierce. On average, there are five or six unemployed people competing for each opening, according to government data. That image is sharp in South Carolina, where unemployment in March was 12.2 percent, the sixth-highest in the country, according to Labor Department figures released Friday. Near Savannah River, Allendale County had the state s second-highest jobless rate at 22.4 percent. Two other nearby counties, Barnwell and Bamberg, were 19.9 percent and 17.7 percent in February. The new hires came from a broad area including parts of South Carolina and Georgia, and unemployment rates have continued to creep upward even since the positions were filled. It was unlikely the jobs would strongly impact rates in any single county, but Obama has said the recession would have been worse without the stimulus and jobs like those at Savannah River. The cost? Around $500,000 per job ? but that money covers overhead and other costs at the site. Thousands of applicants flocked to job fairs and waited hours in the hot sun for a chance to speak with Savannah River recruiters. To one of those new employees, it wasn't just a job opportunity ? it was a saving grace. Bob McClearen worked at Savannah River for 18 years until he was laid off in 1997, working on company presentations and business development. McClearen then struggled for more than a decade to make ends meet, opening a shipping store with his brother-in-law until that business closed last year because of the recession. Scrambling to pay the mortgage on the shuttered store, McClearen said he jumped at the opportunity to return to Savannah River when a friend still onsite told him about the new jobs. Now, McClearen is a technical editor, helping engineers plan cleanup efforts for the reactors and making sure photographs are taken before and after the work. "To me, this is home," McClearen said. "Some people are half-empty, half-full people. I'm just glad to have a glass with something in it." Megan Elliott had just graduated from college when she learned about the new positions. Now, she sees her job doing communications for Savannah River as a resume-builder. The 26-year-old had sent her resume to companies from New York to California before being hired in June 2009. "I was just kind of floating from temporary job to temporary job," Elliott said. "As tough as it was for already employed individuals, it was also tough getting your foot in the door as a recent graduate." McClearen and Elliott might owe their jobs to the stimulus, but several prominent anti-stimulus voices envision a more dire outcome. U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, who didn't support the stimulus and has called the effort a failure, said he's worried the massive influx of cash won't be properly managed. He also has warned of looming higher taxes that he says could shutter the businesses the package was supposed to help. "The fact that the stimulus created some economic activity in that area is a good thing," Graham said. However, he said, "I worry about, has this money been absorbed in a rational process? Is it going to projects that are worthy?" Dennis Saylor, who chairs local Republican efforts in Aiken County, said he supports any growth at Savannah River but wishes the current expansion were more permanent. "Aiken County was strongly against President Obama, but we are benefiting from his administration right now through some of the stimulus money," Saylor says. "I just wish it was a better funded source as opposed to newly printed money." Meanwhile, at Jess Walker's Carolina Bar-B-Que, as many as 800 people line up every day for pulled pork, hash and rice at his family owned restaurant just miles from Savannah River's gates. Business here has always been brisk since Walker opened in 1969. But Walker said his stream of customers has managed to stay steady even during the darkest of economic times, an even keel he attributes to the employees doing stimulus-funded work at Savannah River. "Without the plant, we wouldn't be here," he said, as customers began to fill his restaurant. "It's the reason we even exist." Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/9665d155/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/9665d155/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/9665d155/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 13:07:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:07:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya References: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BC8C38C.000032.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Didn't McCain provide a certified copy of his long form birth certificate? If he did, THAT is the difference, because Obama's real birth certificate was sealed in 2008 and is still sealed. We know what it should look like, but it has never been put on the Internet for the public to decide for themselves. So no real birth certificate, no basis for argument otherwise. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/16/2010 12:22:23 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya McCain wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole since his birth in US occupied Panama wasn't any better. But, once again, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless someone is ready to argue that his grandmother was not a US citizen, since his grandmother's citizenship makes his mother a US citizen, and his mother's citizenship makes him a citizen. So, now the only remaining question is whether either Obama or McCain met the definition of natural born"? "Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States (I commend the whole article to you. It is well researched and written.) Another good treatment of the matter is found here: http://volokh.com/posts/1204265246.shtml So, just like I will not comment further on climate change or the rantings of Don Kelley, this is my last word on the Birthers. bob "just give it up and move on to something else!!" browning PS: Christiana - I love the following Einstein quote!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/16/2010 12:02 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: I believe that if there was solid evidence of this Hilary Clinton would have used it in her campaign. At the very least I think that John McCain might have brought it up. Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/caa8c9ac/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 13:15:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:15:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> Message-ID: <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Disagree or disagree, I and millions of others agree, that if government keeps Christian values out of Schools, they should also keep Homosexual values out of schools. The principal is the same. Before I get jumped on, I have never had a problem one on one with homosexual. Friends clear back to high school knew I was straight, and I knew they were gay or bi. In our friendships or business relations other interactions, the subject just never came up. We are still friends 50 years later. Therefore the subject should not be brought up to impressionable school children at all. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/16/2010 12:44:27 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=3610 > > I guess when it bulldozes over parental religious rights and values. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So parents, as a function of their religion, have the right to teach hate and intolerance and that doing so, somehow, is a family value? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Parents owe it to their children to install family values and > morality. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Of course. It's unfortunate that so many fail that owing. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I don't support any of the hate part, but don't try to force > immorality on my children, grand children, or great grand children, > of whom collectively total 24. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Immorality involves the act itself, not tolerance of it. No one is *promoting* elements you don't agree with. Rather, they are merely saying, you may not agree with them, but you can't act out with hateful words or behavior because of your disagreement with them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I don't pay taxes to support immorality being taught in schools. > That would make me angry. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If it makes you angry, your angry is misplaced and misguided by a misunderstanding of the very basic building blocks of our society -- words and what they mean. When a school counselor tells a troublemaking student that they can't use hate words towards another child simply because of that other child's race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. or their parents' race, sexual orientation, religion, etc., they are not teaching immorality. They are teaching tolerance. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/52886e36/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 16 14:14:14 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:14:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya In-Reply-To: <4BC8C38C.000032.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> <4BC8C38C.000032.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <171901cadda9$c5001950$4f004bf0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Behalf Of donkelly > > So no real birth certificate, no basis for argument otherwise. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Asked and answered countless times before (along with numerous other reasons why he's legitimately able to hold office). If that's the best you can do, then just drop the subject. Jeff From edavie at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 14:22:14 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya In-Reply-To: <4BC8C38C.000032.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> <4BC8C38C.000032.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <06511570111A4571B414B892F8E16882@EdDaviePC> Dead issue!!!!! Ed From: donkelly Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:07 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 16 14:26:08 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:26:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Disagree or disagree, I and millions of others agree, that if > government keeps Christian values out of Schools, they should > also keep Homosexual values out of schools. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The fact that you can even muster up a phrase like "homosexual values" shows your ignorance. Homosexuality isn't a value system. The schools aren't promoting homosexuality. They're discouraging hate language. So, by your position, what would you suggest be done about someone in school being taunted for being a homosexual? Should the ones doing the taunting be ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian "values"? Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior? Do *your* christian values permit hateful language to those of races you can't abide, sexual orientations you think are wrong, or religious convictions that you find distasteful, etc.? The issue here, is the christian conservatives want to make this an issue of right vs wrong, morality, etc. They (including you) are attempting to use that as a means to justify not only judging others, but also casting the stone too. You all need to probably read your own good book cause I'm fairly certain both things are off-limits. This isn't about homosexuality. It never has been. It's about attempting to exercise some manner of vice-like control over the education system, to bend it to your own agenda, and to denigrate any that don't agree with that agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The principal is the same. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Nope, they're worlds apart, though you don't see it that way. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Before I get jumped on, I have never had a problem one on one with > homosexual. Friends clear back to high school knew I was straight, > and I knew they were gay or bi. In our friendships or business > relations other interactions, the subject just never came up. > > We are still friends 50 years later. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I find it *extremely* hard to believe that you had friends in high school in the 1960's that felt safe enough to actually come out of the closet unless they were some of the early brave few souls. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Therefore the subject should not be brought up to impressionable > school children at all. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And, provided they're not using the terms in hate speech, it needn't be. No one is suggesting that school counselors go through the halls handing out literature on why it's better to be gay or bi. All that's being put forward is that it's not ok to commit acts of hate against those that are different *including, but not limited to* homosexuality. Jeff From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 14:40:17 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:40:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: You wrote: "I don't pay taxes to support immorality being taught in schools. That would make me angry. I think they should keep the racial biases outside of the education system. Kids get along with other kids just fine, and they make their own decisions." Morals are taught at home, but the results of those morals are behaviors. Schools end up with those behaviors. When those behaviors include bias and intolerance, the school has a responsibility to change those unacceptable behaviors. And kids don't always get along with other kids just fine. They often bring the biases and intolerance they learned from their parents and act on them! Marian ------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 12:23 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 16 14:39:51 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:39:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <49809139-EA39-4BA3-A486-B171241C2372@teleport.com> On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:15 PM, donkelly wrote: > Disagree or disagree, I and millions of others agree, that if > government > keeps Christian values out of Schools, they should also keep > Homosexual > values out of schools. Ooo-kay, so homosexuality is a religion now? And what are the "values" of the homosexual religion? Wanting to be treated like everyone else, maybe? > > The principal is the same. Well, the "Principal" is the same in any school. He/She's the one you get sent to see if you act up, as by harassing or insulting classmates because of their race, physical or mental disabilities or perceived sexual orientation. > > Before I get jumped on, I have never had a problem one on one with > homosexual. Friends clear back to high school knew I was straight, > and I > knew they were gay or bi. In our friendships or business relations > other > interactions, the subject just never came up. Good on you then. And good on them. Obviously they weren't the predatory monsters depicted by the far right, always prowling around to "convert" the gullible children of God-fearing parents. > > We are still friends 50 years later. > > Therefore the subject should not be brought up to impressionable > school > children at all. Uh... waidaminnut, you just said you knew your friends were gay/bi/ whatever, even in school. If sexual orientation was common knowledge even then, why shouldn't the schools finally begin to acknowledge it at this late date? WW > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/16/2010 12:44:27 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? > > Don, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >> http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=3610 >> >> I guess when it bulldozes over parental religious rights and values. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > So parents, as a function of their religion, have the right to > teach hate > and intolerance and that doing so, somehow, is a family value? > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Parents owe it to their children to install family values and >> morality. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Of course. It's unfortunate that so many fail that owing. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> I don't support any of the hate part, but don't try to force >> immorality on my children, grand children, or great grand children, >> of whom collectively total 24. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Immorality involves the act itself, not tolerance of it. No one is > *promoting* elements you don't agree with. Rather, they are merely > saying, > you may not agree with them, but you can't act out with hateful > words or > behavior because of your disagreement with them. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> I don't pay taxes to support immorality being taught in schools. >> That would make me angry. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > If it makes you angry, your angry is misplaced and misguided by a > misunderstanding of the very basic building blocks of our society > -- words > and what they mean. > > When a school counselor tells a troublemaking student that they > can't use > hate words towards another child simply because of that other > child's race, > sexual orientation, religion, etc. or their parents' race, sexual > orientation, religion, etc., they are not teaching immorality. > They are > teaching tolerance. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 14:44:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:44:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> Message-ID: <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> NO, but you knew my answer would be no. I already stated the truth, I don't support hate language. The support groups use the word in their websites, and their acronym refers to it. If they don't mind using the word, why on earth should I gag on it. YES, I do know they desire tolerance, but I do that already. I didn't have to be taught tolerance in school, and neither did my eight children.. If Christian teachings are kept out of schools, so should their teachings be kept out of schools. Unless they have more rights than we do. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/16/2010 2:26:15 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Disagree or disagree, I and millions of others agree, that if > government keeps Christian values out of Schools, they should > also keep Homosexual values out of schools. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The fact that you can even muster up a phrase like "homosexual values" shows your ignorance. Homosexuality isn't a value system. The schools aren't promoting homosexuality. They're discouraging hate language. So, by your position, what would you suggest be done about someone in school being taunted for being a homosexual? Should the ones doing the taunting be ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian "values"? Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior? Do *your* christian values permit hateful language to those of races you can't abide, sexual orientations you think are wrong, or religious convictions that you find distasteful, etc.? The issue here, is the christian conservatives want to make this an issue of right vs wrong, morality, etc. They (including you) are attempting to use that as a means to justify not only judging others, but also casting the stone too. You all need to probably read your own good book cause I'm fairly certain both things are off-limits. This isn't about homosexuality. It never has been. It's about attempting to exercise some manner of vice-like control over the education system, to bend it to your own agenda, and to denigrate any that don't agree with that agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The principal is the same. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Nope, they're worlds apart, though you don't see it that way. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Before I get jumped on, I have never had a problem one on one with > homosexual. Friends clear back to high school knew I was straight, > and I knew they were gay or bi. In our friendships or business > relations other interactions, the subject just never came up. > > We are still friends 50 years later. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I find it *extremely* hard to believe that you had friends in high school in the 1960's that felt safe enough to actually come out of the closet unless they were some of the early brave few souls. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Therefore the subject should not be brought up to impressionable > school children at all. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And, provided they're not using the terms in hate speech, it needn't be. No one is suggesting that school counselors go through the halls handing out literature on why it's better to be gay or bi. All that's being put forward is that it's not ok to commit acts of hate against those that are different *including, but not limited to* homosexuality. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100416/89a767d4/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 14:53:30 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: You keep saying Christian teachings are kept out of schools or Christian values are kept out of schools? What are you talking about? Ask any math teacher and they'll tell you kids pray all the time before a test. Nobody is stopped from this. Schools bring charges against kids for stealing. Thou shalt not steal is upheld all the time in schools. Most kids aren't married so the part about not coveting they neighbors wife is usually left alone. The 'values' of honesty, integrity and decency etc are all upheld by the schools. Unless those are the homosexual values that you don't want to be taught. Katie On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > NO, but you knew my answer would be no. I already stated the truth, > I don't > support hate language. > > > > The support groups use the word in their websites, and their > acronym refers > to it. > > > > If they don't mind using the word, why on earth should I gag on it. > > > > YES, I do know they desire tolerance, but I do that already. I > didn't have > to be taught tolerance in school, and neither did my eight children.. > > > > If Christian teachings are kept out of schools, so should their > teachings be > kept out of schools. > > > > Unless they have more rights than we do. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Jeff Howden > > Date: 4/16/2010 2:26:15 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? > > > > Don, > > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> > >> Disagree or disagree, I and millions of others agree, that if > >> government keeps Christian values out of Schools, they should > >> also keep Homosexual values out of schools. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > > The fact that you can even muster up a phrase like "homosexual > values" shows > > your ignorance. > > > > Homosexuality isn't a value system. The schools aren't promoting > > homosexuality. They're discouraging hate language. > > > > So, by your position, what would you suggest be done about someone > in school > > being taunted for being a homosexual? Should the ones doing the > taunting be > > ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian > "values"? > > Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior? > Do *your* > > christian values permit hateful language to those of races you > can't abide, > > sexual orientations you think are wrong, or religious convictions > that you > > find distasteful, etc.? > > > > The issue here, is the christian conservatives want to make this an > issue of > > right vs wrong, morality, etc. They (including you) are attempting > to use > > that as a means to justify not only judging others, but also > casting the > > stone too. You all need to probably read your own good book cause I'm > > fairly certain both things are off-limits. > > > > This isn't about homosexuality. It never has been. It's about > attempting > > to exercise some manner of vice-like control over the education > system, to > > bend it to your own agenda, and to denigrate any that don't agree > with that > > agenda. > > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> The principal is the same. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > > Nope, they're worlds apart, though you don't see it that way. > > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> Before I get jumped on, I have never had a problem one on one with > >> homosexual. Friends clear back to high school knew I was straight, > >> and I knew they were gay or bi. In our friendships or business > >> relations other interactions, the subject just never came up. > >> > >> We are still friends 50 years later. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > > I find it *extremely* hard to believe that you had friends in high > school in > > the 1960's that felt safe enough to actually come out of the closet > unless > > they were some of the early brave few souls. > > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> Therefore the subject should not be brought up to impressionable > >> school children at all. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > > And, provided they're not using the terms in hate speech, it > needn't be. No > > one is suggesting that school counselors go through the halls > handing out > > literature on why it's better to be gay or bi. All that's being > put forward > > is that it's not ok to commit acts of hate against those that are > different > > *including, but not limited to* homosexuality. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 16 15:33:10 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:33:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <173601caddb4$cbaaf170$6300d450$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > NO, but you knew my answer would be no. I already stated the truth, I > don't support hate language. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Ok, so you don't support hate language. What about the other three questions I asked then? "What would you suggest be done about someone in school being taunted for being a homosexual?" "Should the ones doing the taunting be ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian 'values'?" "Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior?" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The support groups use the word in their websites, and their > acronym refers to it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What "the word" are you referring to? Are these support groups themselves in the schools? Do they teachers and counselors at the schools send the children with behavior and intolerance issues to these support groups? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If they don't mind using the word, why on earth should I gag on it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Is that a subtle pun? Is there an inside joke there that I'm just not getting? Again, what word? Why would you gag on any particular word? Words, after all, are just sounds that we've assigned some meaning to, right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > YES, I do know they desire tolerance, but I do that already. I > didn't have to be taught tolerance in school, and neither did my > eight children.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< My experience of you so far hasn't been one entirely of tolerance. I think it comes out when it's convenient and goes away when it doesn't suit your agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If Christian teachings are kept out of schools, so should their > teachings be kept out of schools. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's already been established that "their" teachings are not taught at schools. Try this one on for size. Isn't the bible the source of the golden rule? Ah, yes, here it is: Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." http://bible.cc/matthew/7-12.htm Children from christian families shouldn't be persecuted in schools for their religious beliefs, right? Aren't they asking for tolerance of their beliefs from others? Therefore, as they demand tolerance from others, ought they not also then be obligated by their choice to be christian to be tolerant of others, including *gasp* people that have a different race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.? To not be tolerant is to be a hypocrite, eh? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unless they have more rights than we do. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone is implying that they do. Thanks, Jeff From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 16 16:36:39 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? In-Reply-To: <173601caddb4$cbaaf170$6300d450$@com> References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <173601caddb4$cbaaf170$6300d450$@com> Message-ID: <482769.35637.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> When do hate bigotry, intolerance, and hate crimes happen, Don? Do they only happen if the person who says or does something that hurts others believes that they said or done something wrong? Or do they happen when those offended see, hear, and/or feel that they have been wronged? Holly ________________________________ From: Jeff Howden To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > NO, but you knew my answer would be no. I already stated the truth, I > don't support hate language. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Ok, so you don't support hate language. What about the other three questions I asked then? "What would you suggest be done about someone in school being taunted for being a homosexual?" "Should the ones doing the taunting be ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian 'values'?" "Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior?" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The support groups use the word in their websites, and their > acronym refers to it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What "the word" are you referring to? Are these support groups themselves in the schools? Do they teachers and counselors at the schools send the children with behavior and intolerance issues to these support groups? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If they don't mind using the word, why on earth should I gag on it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Is that a subtle pun? Is there an inside joke there that I'm just not getting? Again, what word? Why would you gag on any particular word? Words, after all, are just sounds that we've assigned some meaning to, right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > YES, I do know they desire tolerance, but I do that already. I > didn't have to be taught tolerance in school, and neither did my > eight children.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< My experience of you so far hasn't been one entirely of tolerance. I think it comes out when it's convenient and goes away when it doesn't suit your agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If Christian teachings are kept out of schools, so should their > teachings be kept out of schools. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's already been established that "their" teachings are not taught at schools. Try this one on for size. Isn't the bible the source of the golden rule? Ah, yes, here it is: Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." http://bible.cc/matthew/7-12.htm Children from christian families shouldn't be persecuted in schools for their religious beliefs, right? Aren't they asking for tolerance of their beliefs from others? Therefore, as they demand tolerance from others, ought they not also then be obligated by their choice to be christian to be tolerant of others, including *gasp* people that have a different race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.? To not be tolerant is to be a hypocrite, eh? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unless they have more rights than we do. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone is implying that they do. Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ALLNUTT at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 16:50:44 2010 From: ALLNUTT at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:50:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat when you needed something. Message-ID: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> A note from the Harry Potter author on paying taxes. Paying Taxes Is Patriotic by Adam B Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:45:33 PM PDT On why us muggles should pay our taxes, by J.K. Rowling: The fact remains that the first time I ever met my recently retired accountant, he put it to me point-blank: would I organise my money around my life, or my life around my money? If the latter, it was time to relocate to Ireland, Monaco, or possibly Belize. I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain?s; to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles. A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, threadbare though it had become under John Major?s Government, was there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is my notion of patriotism. From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 16 16:59:21 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:59:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat when you needed something. In-Reply-To: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> References: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> Message-ID: Bravo, Rowling! So, from this eloquent passage one may deduce that American "economic flat-earthers," in protesting the necessity of paying forward to the country that gave them birth, sustained them through childhood and enabled them to acquire riches as adults, are now displaying contempt for their native land? On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > A note from the Harry Potter author on paying taxes. > > Paying Taxes Is Patriotic > by Adam B > Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:45:33 PM PDT > > On why us muggles should pay our taxes, by J.K. Rowling: > The fact remains that the first time I ever met my recently retired > accountant, he put it to me point-blank: would I organise my money > around my life, or my life around my money? If the latter, it was > time to relocate to Ireland, Monaco, or possibly Belize. > I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The > main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to > have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain?s; > to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not > free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and > associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles. > A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British > welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace > with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, > threadbare though it had become under John Major?s Government, was > there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it > would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the > first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is > my notion of patriotism. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 19:47:37 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:47:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya. In-Reply-To: <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <4BC80E48.000013.03712@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8B304961-6311-458F-9300-8E7595DB2F19@verizon.net> On Apr 16, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: > But several lawyers with professional help have investigated same and have filed lawsuits in federal courts. In each case so far the courts have refused to issue discovery orders, ruling instead that the American public has no standing to sue a setting president. That consistent response suggests that there is a consistent legal opinion of the merit of the cases. Essentially zero. > > Do the American people have standing in court to sue the president based on the right to know?. Right to know what? He was born in Hawaii in 1961 of an American citizen mother. That is sufficient information to determine his eligibility. > A Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, and current medical doctor in the US Army, refused to deploy a second time to Afghanistan because he believes the president is not legitimate, so cannot give orders to the military commanders as commander in chief until he produces proof he is a natural born citizen of the united states, therefore a legitimate president. A legitimate candidate for president who is elected by the Electoral College is the legitimate President and the Commander in Chief. The soldier doesn't get to say, "prove it". > > ...You all who know a little about courts will know that a person charged with a crime has a right to prove innocence. The accused also has a right to discovery, to force the president to provide a certified copy of his birth certificate to prove his legal right to be president, for one example. You are using technical terms out of context. The soldier has a right to know the charges against him and to meet his accuser. He has the right to compel witnesses in his favor. He has the right to remain silent. He has a right to a lawyer. And By the Way, the last Administration did not believe in these rights for American citizens and foreign nationals living in America. The "discovery" is a technical term, and it has application is specific situations. You may not charge someone with a crime and then ask for discovery to find the evidence of the charge. The soldier has charged a superior officer with a serious crime and he wants to ask the court to help him find the evidence after the fact. This is contrary to common legal standards in this country. No person shall be charged with a crime except upon finding that a crime has likely been committed. And no search warrants shall be granted except upon probable cause. The soldier has listened to hearsay and chosen to accuse an innocent man of a serious fraud. If nothing else, he should be investigated for slander. ... > So is the president afraid that some court order will out him despite his expensive efforts to hide his past? What is he hiding? Possibly embarrassment that he is an illegitimate child of a woman who was not legally married to his father. Possibly sensitivity to growing up never knowing his real father, and sadness that the father he knew for some years as a small child didn't want to stay married to his mother. Perhaps he is still angry that, despite his mother, he was never considered "White". When he was born, he was defined by state law as a "Negro" in 1/4 of the American states, and considered as one in the rest. You want to grind on him for that? Then call him an illegitimate Negro bastard and be done with it. Stop denying the one thing that he can hold with legitimate pride, his natural born American citizenship. > > Any mind readers here? > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 21:47:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:47:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Birthers AGAIN, this time it is Kenya In-Reply-To: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> References: <4BC8B8E1.6010808@jurislex.com> Message-ID: McCain might not touch it, but the Republican Governor of Hawaii was in a position to find the truth and should it be damning - use it. The Governor didn't because there was nothing there. You ask, who is a "natural born" citizen? Let us return to the Revolutionary War times to find out. Between the Declaration of Independence and the drafting of the Constitution the state of Massachusetts drafted several laws for the naturalization of new citizens. In some laws the new citizens were granted the rights of "natural born subjects" ( the traditional British term) and in the other laws the new citizens were granted the rights of "natural born citizens" ( a strictly American term). There is no question that a "subject" and a "citizen" describe different perspectives on the relationship between the government and the governed. But, according to the principle of "parallel use", because the term "natural born" is used in the same context and same manner by the same legal authority in legislation covering the same situation, in both uses it means the same thing. In both uses it means someone who was born to that condition. Oh yes, the text of the Constitution was drafted by a committee that contained a member of the Massachusetts legislature that passed those particular laws. So, the committee was aware of the meaning of "natural born", and wanted a President who was born to the condition of "citizen". By U.S. law, Barack H. Obama was born a U. S. citizen because of his mother's citizenship. He was born to citizenship, therefore he is a "natural born citizen". Also, so far, nothing presented by any Birther group anywhere has provided any legal evidence that President Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii. Or that his mother was not a citizen. Or that his parents were legally married. Every shred that has been offered by them has fallen apart upon review. I personally like the decision by Hon. Lewis H Sanford of the 1st Circuit in Lynch v Clarke & Lynch. 1845 "Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born but of alien parents, could there be an reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution I think not." http://www.scribd.com/doc/18063999/Lynch-v-Clarke The quality of the Lynch decision was brought before the Supreme Court in the appeal of U.S. v Wong Kim Ark. "On the whole, we submit that Assistant Vice-Chancellor Standford's opinion in Lynch v. Clark, exhibits more knowledge than wisdom; and this display of knowledge has doubtless led estray the judges and Attorneys-General who have relied on that case as the ground of their conclusions." http://library.uchastings.edu/library/topical-and-course-research-guides/wkadisplay/Reply%20Brief1.pdf The High Court sided with Lynch v Clarke. Birth within the country makes someone a natural born citizen. David On Apr 16, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > McCain wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole since his birth in US occupied Panama wasn't any better. But, once again, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless someone is ready to argue that his grandmother was not a US citizen, since his grandmother's citizenship makes his mother a US citizen, and his mother's citizenship makes him a citizen. So, now the only remaining question is whether either Obama or McCain met the definition of "natural born"? >> "Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States: >> >> "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States (I commend the whole article to you. It is well researched and written.) > > Another good treatment of the matter is found here: > > http://volokh.com/posts/1204265246.shtml > > So, just like I will not comment further on climate change or the rantings of Don Kelley, this is my last word on the Birthers. > > bob "just give it up and move on to something else!!" browning From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 00:43:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 00:43:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? References: <16a201cadd90$5d969820$18c3c860$@com> <4BC8B930.00001A.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <16ee01cadd9d$30877c70$91967550$@com> <4BC8C56B.000039.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <172001caddab$6e0a8610$4a1f9230$@com> <4BC8DA3B.00004E.03068@DON-B2514E06367> <173601caddb4$cbaaf170$6300d450$@com> <482769.35637.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BC966B5.000024.01304@DON-B2514E06367> I don't really know Holly. In over sixty years I was never attacked physically or verbally by any of them. I have read of such attacks by the militants written in newspapers and announced on television, but I have never seen it happen. I doubt that it happens either way very often....not enough to gag on. And all people are already protected from assault by law. Do gays really need special rights in addition to the rights everyone else has. Protection?, absolutely. Special laws? Nope. Don -------Original Message------- From: Holly T. Date: 4/16/2010 4:36:54 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? When do hate bigotry, intolerance, and hate crimes happen, Don? Do they only happen if the person who says or does something that hurts others believes that they said or done something wrong? Or do they happen when those offended see, hear, and/or feel that they have been wronged? Holly ________________________________ From: Jeff Howden To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] When did hate become a family value? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > NO, but you knew my answer would be no. I already stated the truth, I > don't support hate language. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Ok, so you don't support hate language. What about the other three questions I asked then? "What would you suggest be done about someone in school being taunted for being a homosexual?" "Should the ones doing the taunting be ignored because they're merely speaking out about their christian 'values'?" "Or, should they be pulled aside and dealt with for hate behavior?" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The support groups use the word in their websites, and their > acronym refers to it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What "the word" are you referring to? Are these support groups themselves in the schools? Do they teachers and counselors at the schools send the children with behavior and intolerance issues to these support groups? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If they don't mind using the word, why on earth should I gag on it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Is that a subtle pun? Is there an inside joke there that I'm just not getting? Again, what word? Why would you gag on any particular word? Words, after all, are just sounds that we've assigned some meaning to, right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > YES, I do know they desire tolerance, but I do that already. I > didn't have to be taught tolerance in school, and neither did my > eight children.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< My experience of you so far hasn't been one entirely of tolerance. I think it comes out when it's convenient and goes away when it doesn't suit your agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If Christian teachings are kept out of schools, so should their > teachings be kept out of schools. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's already been established that "their" teachings are not taught at schools. Try this one on for size. Isn't the bible the source of the golden rule? Ah, yes, here it is: Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." http://bible.cc/matthew/7-12.htm Children from christian families shouldn't be persecuted in schools for their religious beliefs, right? Aren't they asking for tolerance of their beliefs from others? Therefore, as they demand tolerance from others, ought they not also then be obligated by their choice to be christian to be tolerant of others, including *gasp* people that have a different race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.? To not be tolerant is to be a hypocrite, eh? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unless they have more rights than we do. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone is implying that they do. Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100417/9b1fd93d/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 00:56:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 00:56:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goldman Sachs Message-ID: <4BC96990.000033.01304@DON-B2514E06367> Follow up on Goldman Sachs mentioned three days ago, three decades of frauds SEC accuses Goldman Sachs of civil fraud The Associated Press Friday, April 16, 2010; 10:55 AM WASHINGTON -- The government is accusing Wall Street powerhouse Goldman Sachs & Co. Of defrauding investors in its disclosures about securities it sold tied to sub-prime mortgage securities as the housing market was faltering. The Securities and Exchange Commission announced Friday civil fraud charges against Goldman Sachs and one of its vice presidents. The agency Alleges that the company marketed complex sub-prime mortgage securities And failed to disclose to investors that a major hedge fund had bet Against the securities. Goldman Sachs shares fell 7.4 percent. Do you think the Attorney General or Congress will really go after these guys? Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 10:21:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:21:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. Message-ID: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> This video came from my son David in Alaska. He was seven years old when Red Skelton made this video, yet still remembers Red as one of the funniest comedians on television. I agree and would also add Bill Cosby to the list of funniest comedians. There were many good ones. I hope you all enjoy this look back into history. Don -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: This is worth listening to! Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:55:30 -0800 Size: 5789 Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100417/efa74a2a/attachment.mht From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 10:48:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:48:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Presidential Tax Day address Message-ID: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141713 Were our 2009 taxes actually lowered, or was it just temporarily reduced by A one time tax credit? Will our taxes be raised to support Health Care boondoggles the majority of American people don't want? Don From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Apr 17 11:00:06 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:00:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Presidential Tax Day address In-Reply-To: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: So in other words: Down is not down if it isn't always down? When Bill Clinton balanced the budget and had supluses those were only temporary. Does that mean that they didn't happen? Bush said we can't always have surpluses and he made it so. For me, I will acknowledge that down is down since it is the opposite of up. If down is followed by up, it does not make sense to say that the down never happened. Katie On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:48 AM, donkelly wrote: > http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141713 > > Were our 2009 taxes actually lowered, or was it just temporarily > reduced by > A one time tax credit? Will our taxes be raised to support Health Care > boondoggles the majority of American people don't want? > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 11:07:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:07:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. References: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> Message-ID: <4BC9F8F5.000012.04876@DON-B2514E06367> I agree that paying taxes is one of many patriotic duties. It is also one patriotic duty of Americans to protest against the waste of taxes. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/16/2010 4:59:17 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. Bravo, Rowling! So, from this eloquent passage one may deduce that American "economic flat-earthers," in protesting the necessity of paying forward to the country that gave them birth, sustained them through childhood and enabled them to acquire riches as adults, are now displaying contempt for their native land? On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > A note from the Harry Potter author on paying taxes. > > Paying Taxes Is Patriotic > by Adam B > Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:45:33 PM PDT > > On why us muggles should pay our taxes, by J.K. Rowling: > The fact remains that the first time I ever met my recently retired > accountant, he put it to me point-blank: would I organise my money > around my life, or my life around my money? If the latter, it was > time to relocate to Ireland, Monaco, or possibly Belize. > I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The > main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to > have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain?s; > to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not > free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and > associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles. > A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British > welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace > with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, > threadbare though it had become under John Major?s Government, was > there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it > would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the > first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is > my notion of patriotism. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100417/ccdf03e1/attachment-0001.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Apr 17 11:10:04 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:10:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <82EAE055-47A4-4610-BF2C-2AEEAC442301@verizon.net> I enjoyed it. And it brought back memories because when I was in school I learned the pledge of allegiance just like Red Skelton learned it, without the 'Under God' portion. And I learned it on a military base full of military personnel and their children and there isn't any way that the military base school was against this country. I would not object if we removed the 'under God' wording though because people we just as patriotic in the good old days. Katie On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:21 AM, donkelly wrote: > This video came from my son David in Alaska. He was seven years old > when Red > Skelton made this video, yet still remembers Red as one of the > funniest > comedians on television. > > I agree and would also add Bill Cosby to the list of funniest > comedians. > There were many good ones. > > I hope you all enjoy this look back into history. > > Don > > From: > Date: April 15, 2010 10:55:30 AM PDT > To: > Subject: This is worth listening to! > > > Definitely worth it...pass it on! > > > > I don't know how many of you remember the old Red Skelton TV show > (it was one of my favorites), but this is something everyone should > watch. Enjoy . . . . > > > This will bring up a lump in your throat.....Where is this today? > We need to bring it back!.....This one will touch your heart! > Enjoy and remember. > > > Red Skelton--from his television show in 1969. WOW ! Just think, > he said this on his television show in 1969 and really had > no clue it would ever come about. SAD, isn't it? What a > wonderful and worthwhile clip to watch and share with all > your friends and acquaintances! > > http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578 > > > ********************************************************************** > ********* > To comply with IRS regulations, we advise you that any discussion > of Federal tax issues in this > e-mail was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used > by you, (i) to avoid any penalties > imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) to promote, market > or recommend to another party any > transaction or matter addressed herein. > > For more information please go to http://www.lw.com/docs/irs.pdf > ********************************************************************** > ********* > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged > and/or attorney work product for > the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or > distribution by others or forwarding > without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete all copies. > > Latham & Watkins LLP > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Apr 17 11:24:21 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:24:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <68C75F424A3A400EBC8DC262B1E7452D@EdDaviePC> How do you open an .eml file? Ed From: donkelly Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 10:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. This video came from my son David in Alaska. He was seven years old when Red Skelton made this video, yet still remembers Red as one of the funniest comedians on television. I agree and would also add Bill Cosby to the list of funniest comedians. There were many good ones. I hope you all enjoy this look back into history. Don -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Apr 17 11:38:12 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:38:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: <68C75F424A3A400EBC8DC262B1E7452D@EdDaviePC> References: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> <68C75F424A3A400EBC8DC262B1E7452D@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: Never mind, got it. Ed From: Ed Davie Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:24 AM To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. How do you open an .eml file? Ed From: donkelly Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 10:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. This video came from my son David in Alaska. He was seven years old when Red Skelton made this video, yet still remembers Red as one of the funniest comedians on television. I agree and would also add Bill Cosby to the list of funniest comedians. There were many good ones. I hope you all enjoy this look back into history. Don -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 12:07:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:07:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] CAP N TRADE and GLOBAL WARMING is back. References: <1539.1271035043@jurislex.com> <4BC2CC01.00005E.02624@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cada1f$afca9110$0f5fb330$@com> <4BC353EE.000027.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <008b01cada65$790197a0$6b04c6e0$@com> <4BC36956.00004F.04060@DON-B2514E06367> <6DC593B4-208C-4A69-866E-B8CF77AEFAEA@verizon.net> <000001cadb12$c71ea8d0$555bfa70$@net> <1F2C1324-2CE6-43C0-ABA6-1FB7E4F472A7@teleport.com> <4BC4DDFB.000059.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC51926.000063.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <4BC5241E.000072.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <43FF22D6-D002-4199-AC58-DBD9C31E35FB@verizon.net> <4BC535EE.000080.05644@DON-B2514E06367> <2C01F89D-73F3-41C9-81BA-2355632393AE@verizon.net> <4BC53D04.000092.05644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BCA06DB.000020.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Why am I not surprised? Why are we not surprised? Will they try to bypass Congress on these two expensive issues? If so, will you be surprised? Information is boss, sort out the bad and embrace the good. Don Check out the discussion 'CAP & TAX: IT'S BAAAAACK! + The Great Global Warming Swindle' Please take a look; the EXCELLENT documentary video included is a MUST-SEE; and the news of Cap'n'Tax making a return is important; this is the next big fight! Then let us know your thoughts! Discussion posted by Jared Law: Before the article, and before the excellent documentary video below, feel free to take a look at these first two video clips explaining th... Discussion link: CAP & TAX: IT'S BAAAAACK! + The Great Global Warming Swindle -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100417/56a6d82e/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Apr 17 12:26:15 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:26:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:21:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <5230-4BCA0B57-6865@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Thanks for Red's voice from the grave, for it does hurt to renew ones allegiance once in awhile, especially for those of us who fought, and lost blood over that right! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100417/2af8e330/attachment.html From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sat Apr 17 12:28:31 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Presidential Tax Day address In-Reply-To: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <655176.27654.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> One day when America's baby boomers no longer have school-age kids and no direct interest in maintaining the current standard of education in this country, do you think it would be a good idea for them to band together to form "tea parties" that require all parents to pay for their own children's education because of perceived waste and dysfunctionality in the educational system? Just let the poor kids and their families go by the wayside. They're all riffraff anyway. Let them all die if they can't eat because they can't get jobs because they're uneducated. It's natural selection. Survival of the fittest. Nobody ever gave me a handout; so why should I give one to anyone else with my hard-earned pension money and retirement savings? Tax and spend tax and spend. Not for me. Off with their heads! I look at the need for health care reform in a similar light as I do the need for education in our society. Except it's not just poor people who have been devastated by lack of health care. Plenty of those in the middle and even upper classes have lost their jobs, had their homes foreclosed, and taken up bankruptcy due to uninsured medical costs. This article states that, in 2009, half of all foreclosures were due to medical bills: http://cthealthnotes.blogspot.com/2009/04/half-of-foreclosures-due-to-sickness.html This article states that, in 2009, 1.5 million Americans were expected to declare bankruptcy, and 60 percent were expected to go bankrupt due to medical bills. http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/ This 2008 AARP article puts the figure much higher, saying that 1.85 million Americans go bankrupt each year due to medical bills. http://www.bankruptcylawnetwork.com/2008/09/01/aarp-185-million-americans-go-bankrupt-due-to-medical-bills-in-one-year/ The AARP article cites a Harvard study done in 2005 where interviews with 1,771 Americans in bankruptcy courts revealed that half said that illness or medical bills drove them to bankruptcy. So, these people and their dependents are directly affected by the double-whammy of severe illness combined with bankruptcy. According to the article, this means that every 30 seconds in our fine country, someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem. As you do, Don, I have serious concerns about the actual implementation of the Health Care Reform Bill. I deduce that because those who passed this bill are politicians, they couldn't possibly have considered all ramifications of their decisions from all the essential angles. There are complex insurance considerations, medical practitioner considerations, hospital considerations, employer considerations, tax considerations, new infrastructure considerations, legal considerations, etc. that, no doubt, must eventually be addressed in workable, efficient, cost-effective, human-considerate ways. But, I also recognize that, at some point, our country had to cut to the chase and implement such a bill. Over the years, medical costs have risen far in excess of the cost of living, greater numbers of people are becoming uninsured every year, and more and more employers are reducing medical benefits or not providing them at all. I am hopeful that all serious bugs will be worked out from the new bill and that, five years from now, we'll all be much better off than we would have been if the Health Care Reform Bill had never passed. If Congress never passed such a bill, eventually, a lot more than 2 million people per year would face the double-whammy of severe, uninsured illnesses combined with bankruptcy. Huge numbers will have had their homes foreclosed. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. If the Health Care Reform Bill hadn't passed, it would have cost Americans a lot too. Both in terms of taxes spent to help bail people out of their financial and medical difficulties, and in terms of taxes not collected from the uninsured due to their financial ruin, untreated medical conditions, their medical-related job losses, and more. I believe that, as members of the human community, we would have also eventually had to pay for a far less tangible but hugely inescapable cost: the cost of human suffering. Holly ________________________________ From: donkelly To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 10:48:40 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Presidential Tax Day address http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141713 Were our 2009 taxes actually lowered, or was it just temporarily reduced by A one time tax credit? Will our taxes be raised to support Health Care boondoggles the majority of American people don't want? Don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 12:44:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:44:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. References: <5230-4BCA0B57-6865@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BCA0FB5.000027.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Red was a genius of humor, as was the other Red, but some skits of humor rendered by Skelton would today be considered 'politically incorrect.' But what is the definition of political correctness? Is it a brainwash funnel in support of narrow viewpoints? Is the term 'terrorist', in the current vernacular, politically incorrect? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100417/90cf679f/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 17 13:09:23 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:09:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goldman Sachs In-Reply-To: <4BC96990.000033.01304@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC96990.000033.01304@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <64FE0846-AF5C-4518-A2C9-D6CC62281E06@verizon.net> If there is sufficient justification for a trial, I would hope that Goldman Sachs gets their day in court. And should the charges be correct, I would hope that they get the proper punishment. I understand that the damages were estimated in the range of a Billion or so dollars. If the estimate is correct and the trial results in a finding of guilty, I would hope that the "triple damages" would be imposed to dissuade this sort of fraud in the future. Of course, there is that pesky "activist" Supreme Court who insisted that a defendant is "innocent until proven guilty". So, I will not condemn Goldman Sachs until the trial is complete, or at least until the evidence is presented. And if the particular fraud isn't covered by regulation, perhaps Congress should provide oversight. David On Apr 17, 2010, at 12:56 AM, donkelly wrote: > Follow up on Goldman Sachs mentioned three days ago, three decades of frauds > ... > Do you think the Attorney General or Congress will really go after these guys? > > Don From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Apr 17 13:51:09 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:51:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I wouldn't want to pay these late fees! Message-ID: <9595-4BCA1F3D-3960@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> George Washington racks up late fees at NY library - MSNBC Articles http://tinyurl.com/y2m6jzr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100417/523df3ff/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=36616600 From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 17 13:55:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:55:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] I wouldn't want to pay these late fees! References: <9595-4BCA1F3D-3960@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BCA204E.000038.04876@DON-B2514E06367> No doubt. He was a busy man. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan AKA Hoss Date: 4/17/2010 1:51:27 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] I wouldn't want to pay these late fees! ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100417/78213c5e/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 17 15:02:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:02:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Presidential Tax Day address In-Reply-To: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BC9F478.00000C.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0842CAF4-5F8F-4C4E-98A0-461D056DF390@teleport.com> On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:48 AM, donkelly wrote: > http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=141713 > > Were our 2009 taxes actually lowered, or was it just temporarily > reduced by > A one time tax credit? Will our taxes be raised to support Health Care > boondoggles the majority of American people don't want? Or will one gang of determined nay-sayers find something to catastrophize about in any event, however beneficial? ;^) > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 17 15:03:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:03:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. In-Reply-To: <4BC9F8F5.000012.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> <4BC9F8F5.000012.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4217AEAA-21D6-4CD9-ABF0-50244C2777A1@teleport.com> On Apr 17, 2010, at 11:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > I agree that paying taxes is one of many patriotic duties. > > It is also one patriotic duty of Americans to protest against the > waste of > taxes. Yep, it sure is! So I'll expect you at the next anti-war vigil. Walt > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/16/2010 4:59:17 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat > whenyou needed something. > > Bravo, Rowling! > So, from this eloquent passage one may deduce that American "economic > flat-earthers," in protesting the necessity of paying forward to the > country that gave them birth, sustained them through childhood and > enabled them to acquire riches as adults, are now displaying contempt > for their native land? > > On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> A note from the Harry Potter author on paying taxes. >> >> Paying Taxes Is Patriotic >> by Adam B >> Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:45:33 PM PDT >> >> On why us muggles should pay our taxes, by J.K. Rowling: >> The fact remains that the first time I ever met my recently retired >> accountant, he put it to me point-blank: would I organise my money >> around my life, or my life around my money? If the latter, it was >> time to relocate to Ireland, Monaco, or possibly Belize. >> I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The >> main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to >> have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain?s; >> to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not >> free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and >> associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles. >> A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British >> welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace >> with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, >> threadbare though it had become under John Major?s Government, was >> there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it >> would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the >> first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is >> my notion of patriotism. >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 17 15:06:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:06:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: <82EAE055-47A4-4610-BF2C-2AEEAC442301@verizon.net> References: <4BC9EE19.000001.04876@DON-B2514E06367> <82EAE055-47A4-4610-BF2C-2AEEAC442301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <453B19BE-7A5D-4D0A-9581-10E7840B2940@teleport.com> Yep... I remember chanting the Pledge in grade school under the stern direction of Mrs. Neet, our teacher. Without "under God" in those days, of course. Still recite it that way. Why are the conservatives always changing things? WW On Apr 17, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I enjoyed it. > And it brought back memories because when I was in school I learned > the pledge of allegiance just like Red Skelton learned it, without > the 'Under God' portion. And I learned it on a military base full of > military personnel and their children and there isn't any way that > the military base school was against this country. > > I would not object if we removed the 'under God' wording though > because people we just as patriotic in the good old days. > > Katie > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:21 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> This video came from my son David in Alaska. He was seven years old >> when Red >> Skelton made this video, yet still remembers Red as one of the >> funniest >> comedians on television. >> >> I agree and would also add Bill Cosby to the list of funniest >> comedians. >> There were many good ones. >> >> I hope you all enjoy this look back into history. >> >> Don >> >> From: >> Date: April 15, 2010 10:55:30 AM PDT >> To: >> Subject: This is worth listening to! >> >> >> Definitely worth it...pass it on! >> >> >> >> I don't know how many of you remember the old Red Skelton TV show >> (it was one of my favorites), but this is something everyone should >> watch. Enjoy . . . . >> >> >> This will bring up a lump in your throat.....Where is this today? >> We need to bring it back!.....This one will touch your heart! >> Enjoy and remember. >> >> >> Red Skelton--from his television show in 1969. WOW ! Just think, >> he said this on his television show in 1969 and really had >> no clue it would ever come about. SAD, isn't it? What a >> wonderful and worthwhile clip to watch and share with all >> your friends and acquaintances! >> >> http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578 >> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ********* >> To comply with IRS regulations, we advise you that any discussion >> of Federal tax issues in this >> e-mail was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used >> by you, (i) to avoid any penalties >> imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) to promote, market >> or recommend to another party any >> transaction or matter addressed herein. >> >> For more information please go to http://www.lw.com/docs/irs.pdf >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ********* >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged >> and/or attorney work product for >> the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or >> distribution by others or forwarding >> without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please >> contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> Latham & Watkins LLP >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 17 15:25:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:25:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Red Skelton speaks from the grave. In-Reply-To: <4BCA0FB5.000027.04876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <5230-4BCA0B57-6865@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4BCA0FB5.000027.04876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2010, at 12:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > Red was a genius of humor, as was the other Red, but some skits of > humor > rendered by Skelton would today be considered 'politically incorrect.' > > But what is the definition of political correctness? > > Is it a brainwash funnel in support of narrow viewpoints? > > Is the term 'terrorist', in the current vernacular, politically > incorrect? "Political correctness" evolves as particular groups evolve, and move from the periphery into the mainstream. An example: I greatly enjoy the writings and cartoons of Milt Gross, who wrote in a funny mock- Yiddish dialect learned at his Jewish immigrant mother's knee. He was tremendously popular in the 1920s and 1930s, when the immigrant Jews were still integrating into the society. By the late 1940s and 1950s, when the immigrants' children were thoroughly Americanized and speaking all-American English, the old dialect was perceived as an inaccurate and therefore insulting depiction of modern Jewish culture. And Gross stopped writing in the dialect. Are people "hypersensitive" when outdated, exaggerated and inaccurate depictions of their race, religion or social group are presented as "humor?" I suppose it's a factor of whether they feel outnumbered or at some other disadvantage in the wider culture. Political correctness consists, therefore, of ordinary courtesy toward people who have evolved past their old positions in society but are still subject to unflattering stereotypes, whether masquerading as "humor" or not. > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 17 15:27:37 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goldman Sachs In-Reply-To: <64FE0846-AF5C-4518-A2C9-D6CC62281E06@verizon.net> References: <4BC96990.000033.01304@DON-B2514E06367> <64FE0846-AF5C-4518-A2C9-D6CC62281E06@verizon.net> Message-ID: <85B98D83-3975-4477-87D0-9BBE86A4FFE0@teleport.com> Unfortunately, SCOTUS has also declared that corporations are "people" in regard to campaign donations. So if Goldman Sachs is found guilty, how are they going to imprison him, her or it? WW On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:09 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If there is sufficient justification for a trial, I would hope that > Goldman Sachs gets their day in court. And should the charges be > correct, I would hope that they get the proper punishment. I > understand that the damages were estimated in the range of a > Billion or so dollars. > > If the estimate is correct and the trial results in a finding of > guilty, I would hope that the "triple damages" would be imposed to > dissuade this sort of fraud in the future. > > Of course, there is that pesky "activist" Supreme Court who > insisted that a defendant is "innocent until proven guilty". So, I > will not condemn Goldman Sachs until the trial is complete, or at > least until the evidence is presented. > > And if the particular fraud isn't covered by regulation, perhaps > Congress should provide oversight. > > David > > On Apr 17, 2010, at 12:56 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> Follow up on Goldman Sachs mentioned three days ago, three decades >> of frauds >> ... >> Do you think the Attorney General or Congress will really go after >> these guys? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sat Apr 17 15:43:53 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. In-Reply-To: <4217AEAA-21D6-4CD9-ABF0-50244C2777A1@teleport.com> References: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> <4BC9F8F5.000012.04876@DON-B2514E06367> <4217AEAA-21D6-4CD9-ABF0-50244C2777A1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <323047.34084.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hmm...I gotta wonder if anyone's figured out how many generations of free health care coulda been paid for by the money we've frittered away since our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Type, type, type, type, type.... Let's see now. According to www.costofwar.com, we're currently up to....uuuuuuuuhhhhh....$983,965,616,794. And that's just since we invaded Iraq in 2001. Man, has it really been that long?! Uh oh....since I turned on Javascript, the counter seems to be going up by about $1,000 every half second. This is incredible! Looks like all the taxes I typically pay in an entire year get eaten up in only about 7 seconds. Unbelievable! And to think that people are becoming tea party activists because they're afraid of of how much health care reform will cost them, but they're not taking to the streets to protest the cost of this insane war that is being fought because Bush, Rove, and Cheney wanted to make tons of money from their big oil investments?! Uh oh....guess what: The cost of war is now up over $983,969,500. And, I've been typing really, really fast. Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 3:03:54 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. On Apr 17, 2010, at 11:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > I agree that paying taxes is one of many patriotic duties. > > It is also one patriotic duty of Americans to protest against the > waste of > taxes. Yep, it sure is! So I'll expect you at the next anti-war vigil. Walt > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/16/2010 4:59:17 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat > whenyou needed something. > > Bravo, Rowling! > So, from this eloquent passage one may deduce that American "economic > flat-earthers," in protesting the necessity of paying forward to the > country that gave them birth, sustained them through childhood and > enabled them to acquire riches as adults, are now displaying contempt > for their native land? > > On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> A note from the Harry Potter author on paying taxes. >> >> Paying Taxes Is Patriotic >> by Adam B >> Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:45:33 PM PDT >> >> On why us muggles should pay our taxes, by J.K. Rowling: >> The fact remains that the first time I ever met my recently retired >> accountant, he put it to me point-blank: would I organise my money >> around my life, or my life around my money? If the latter, it was >> time to relocate to Ireland, Monaco, or possibly Belize. >> I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The >> main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to >> have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain?s; >> to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not >> free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and >> associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles. >> A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British >> welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace >> with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, >> threadbare though it had become under John Major?s Government, was >> there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it >> would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the >> first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is >> my notion of patriotism. >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 18 01:12:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:12:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goldman Sachs References: <4BC96990.000033.01304@DON-B2514E06367> <64FE0846-AF5C-4518-A2C9-D6CC62281E06@verizon.net> <85B98D83-3975-4477-87D0-9BBE86A4FFE0@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCABED8.000004.02460@DON-B2514E06367> Well, they could fine the collective Doe's, however many there are, the cost of the health care bill they supported. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 04/17/10 15:27:21 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goldman Sachs Unfortunately, SCOTUS has also declared that corporations are "people" in regard to campaign donations. So if Goldman Sachs is found guilty, how are they going to imprison him, her or it? WW On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:09 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If there is sufficient justification for a trial, I would hope that > Goldman Sachs gets their day in court. And should the charges be > correct, I would hope that they get the proper punishment. I > understand that the damages were estimated in the range of a > Billion or so dollars. > > If the estimate is correct and the trial results in a finding of > guilty, I would hope that the "triple damages" would be imposed to > dissuade this sort of fraud in the future. > > Of course, there is that pesky "activist" Supreme Court who > insisted that a defendant is "innocent until proven guilty". So, I > will not condemn Goldman Sachs until the trial is complete, or at > least until the evidence is presented. > > And if the particular fraud isn't covered by regulation, perhaps > Congress should provide oversight. > > David > > On Apr 17, 2010, at 12:56 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> Follow up on Goldman Sachs mentioned three days ago, three decades >> of frauds >> ... >> Do you think the Attorney General or Congress will really go after >> these guys? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100418/813bf52f/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 18 01:29:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:29:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Message-ID: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> Word through Reuters report an Archaeological find in Greece of a large humanoid with a skull four times larger than the average human skull. I haven't heard anything about this find through American media, but then I worked til midnight so have not caught up on all the news. Guess we'll learn how large the human was when the body is completely recovered. Has anyone else heard about this find? Don From waltw at teleport.com Sun Apr 18 08:28:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:28:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: No sign of that story yet, although a related story is at http:// www.girl8teen.com/forums/Skeleton-(disambiguation).html Odd that the Reuters story should come out of Greece, where the ancient discovery of mammoth skulls gave rise to the legend of the Cyclops. On Apr 18, 2010, at 1:29 AM, donkelly wrote: > Word through Reuters report an Archaeological find in Greece of a > large > humanoid with a skull four times larger than the average human skull. > > I haven't heard anything about this find through American media, > but then I > worked til midnight so have not caught up on all the news. > > Guess we'll learn how large the human was when the body is completely > recovered. > > Has anyone else heard about this find? > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 08:35:08 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:35:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:28:14 -0700 Message-ID: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> okay Walt, I'll bite ... what the heck does someone's nickers got to do with giants in the land? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100418/f59d34d1/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Sun Apr 18 08:47:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:47:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> Clink on the link about the giant skeleton photo fraud, about six or seven entries down on the page. On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:35 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > okay Walt, I'll bite ... what the heck does someone's nickers got > to do > with giants in the land? > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 08:51:37 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:51:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:47:52 -0700 Message-ID: <5234-4BCB2A89-3629@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> ok... I shall try it, ya know your interrupting my sunday morning cribbage game. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100418/480befc5/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 18 09:26:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:26:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] President promises vetos References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCB32A2.000005.04940@DON-B2514E06367> The president has promised to veto bills that do not reign in Wall Street and Protect Consumers. He provided no details for us to pick on..........YET. Sounds good so far though. Time has come to do something positive for the people. http://my.barackobama com/page/content/wallstreetsignon?source=20100418_MS_ND&email=ocollaugh%40com ast.net Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100418/490051c2/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 18 09:57:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:57:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Bonn Germany on Global Warming References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> <4BCB32A2.000005.04940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BCB39DA.000014.04940@DON-B2514E06367> http://www.dw-gmf.de/?maca=en-newsletter_en_Newsline-2356-html-nl Deutsch Welle provides daily update to select news of world wide interest. Good feed to have. CAUTION: This one is a bit slanted, but not too bad. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100418/f965acf7/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 14:08:48 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 14:08:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Not true. The pictures in the paper were of normal size. Ed From: donkelly Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:29 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Word through Reuters report an Archaeological find in Greece of a large humanoid with a skull four times larger than the average human skull. I haven't heard anything about this find through American media, but then I worked til midnight so have not caught up on all the news. Guess we'll learn how large the human was when the body is completely recovered. Has anyone else heard about this find? Don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sun Apr 18 14:55:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 14:55:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Has anyone else heard about this find? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yup, you and snopes both. http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 16:34:02 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 16:34:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New Virus Alert Message-ID: <10538-4BCB96EA-2002@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100418/7e270179/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.wtv-zone.com/annah/pages/smile.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 16:37:10 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 16:37:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?*=95*My_Online_Friends*=95*?= Message-ID: <10532-4BCB97A6-9471@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://www.wtv-zone.com/annah/pages/onlinefriends.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.wtv-zone.com/annah/pages/onlinefriends.html From rosesfromhoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 16:46:52 2010 From: rosesfromhoss at webtv.net (rosesfromhoss at webtv.net) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Grovenet] You have a CUSTARD PIE POSTCARD! Message-ID: <201004182346.o3INkqSZ024336@magics.net> Confidential! For folks in the grove only! Hoss had created a special posty, just for you, folks in the grove and sent it to you on Sun Apr 18 19:46:52 2010. The posty will be stored for you for 21 days. Be sure to pick it during these 21 days before it expires. You may pick it up from CUSTARD PIE POSTCARDS http://www.custardpie.com/pickup.htm Your ticket number is: 041819465224334 Alternatively you can pick it up by clicking on the link below: http://pro.mypostcards.com/CUSTARDPIEcard.cgi?041819465224334 *********** If you are using AOL mail: just click here. *********** From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 20:13:03 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:13:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] You have a CUSTARD PIE POSTCARD! In-Reply-To: <201004182346.o3INkqSZ024336@magics.net> References: <201004182346.o3INkqSZ024336@magics.net> Message-ID: Thanks, I was worrying it was going to be one of those "pie in the face" things. David On Apr 18, 2010, at 4:46 PM, rosesfromhoss at webtv.net wrote: > Confidential! For folks in the grove only! > > Hoss had created a special posty, just for you, folks in the grove... From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 20:25:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:25:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] You have a CUSTARD PIE POSTCARD! In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:13:03 -0700 Message-ID: <9594-4BCBCD3F-6516@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Dave.. I hope you like custard, cause that is all there is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100418/ddf4a202/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 20:34:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:34:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] You have a CUSTARD PIE POSTCARD! In-Reply-To: <9594-4BCBCD3F-6516@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <9594-4BCBCD3F-6516@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <2E46786A-9D37-4561-AA38-06C447C2A15F@verizon.net> What, no rhubarb? David On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Dave.. I hope you like custard, cause that is all there is. > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 20:35:45 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:35:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Bonn Germany on Global Warming In-Reply-To: <4BCB39DA.000014.04940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> <4BCB32A2.000005.04940@DON-B2514E06367> <4BCB39DA.000014.04940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1B992DE6-F467-4D2D-B875-0E2267C58C8B@verizon.net> It appears that Bolivia doesn't want to sign the accord because it isn't vigorous enough. They are concerned that glacial melt will reduce their water supplies. David On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:57 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > http://www.dw-gmf.de/?maca=en-newsletter_en_Newsline-2356-html-nl > > > > Deutsch Welle provides daily update to select news of world wide interest. > Good feed to have. > > > > CAUTION: This one is a bit slanted, but not too bad. > > > > Don > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 18 20:37:26 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:37:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] You have a CUSTARD PIE POSTCARD! In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:34:06 -0700 Message-ID: <9602-4BCBCFF6-327@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> no rhubarb, and no rutabagas either -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100418/4142a1e2/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 18 22:41:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 22:41:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More about Goldman Sachs References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> <4BCB32A2.000005.04940@DON-B2514E06367> <4BCB39DA.000014.04940@DON-B2514E06367> <1B992DE6-F467-4D2D-B875-0E2267C58C8B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCBECF1.000011.02896@DON-B2514E06367> Hope none of you hold stock with them. http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5479487,00 html?maca=en-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-nl Liked your Friends piece David. I didn't suspect you were that deep into Internet websites. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100418/a4742a85/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 23:04:45 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:04:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More about Goldman Sachs In-Reply-To: <4BCBECF1.000011.02896@DON-B2514E06367> References: <5233-4BCB26AC-4582@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <5BC4F148-58F6-4EBA-A6FF-7031AD36C9C1@teleport.com> <4BCB32A2.000005.04940@DON-B2514E06367> <4BCB39DA.000014.04940@DON-B2514E06367> <1B992DE6-F467-4D2D-B875-0E2267C58C8B@verizon.net> <4BCBECF1.000011.02896@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3C0047ED-37CB-442F-9102-01C353868600@verizon.net> The German connection to the Goldman Sachs is new information to me. I had heard of it as part of the Greek financial meltdown. The "your Friends piece" reference is unclear. Maybe it is just too late to make the connection. If it is a compliment, thank you. If not, let me know what internet website and what friend. David On Apr 18, 2010, at 10:41 PM, donkelly wrote: > Hope none of you hold stock with them. > > http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5479487,00.html > ?maca=en-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-nl > > > > Liked your Friends piece David. > > I didn't suspect you were that deep into Internet websites. > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 07:38:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:38:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines Message-ID: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> Don, I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting involved in the energy sector. Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private property through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas Pipeline? It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. The radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, and yet no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. David From admin at ronhowden.com Mon Apr 19 07:57:31 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:57:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines In-Reply-To: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> Message-ID: <019901cadfd0$a3efbdf0$ebcf39d0$@com> According to the Forest Grove Utility Statement under Special Message the Oregon Pipeline Project will be discussed at a town hall meeting on April 20th at 10 am. It will at the Community Auditorium and is hosted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Ron H. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:38 AM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines Don, I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting involved in the energy sector. Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private property through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas Pipeline? It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. The radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, and yet no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. David From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 08:13:15 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:13:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] What we learned from Oklahoma City Message-ID: <833967179.12703.1271689995255.JavaMail.root@vms170053> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/dcb022ad/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 19 08:38:53 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:38:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make it all the more complicated. Case closed. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Has anyone else heard about this find? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yup, you and snopes both. http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 08:51:28 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:51:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How do I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than another news organization? It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a discussion for the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I don't think we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already know it all. :) Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. > > One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what > constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of > how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make > it all the more complicated. > > Case closed. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jeff Howden > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > Don, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> Has anyone else heard about this find? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Yup, you and snopes both. > > http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 08:54:35 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:54:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> <019901cadfd0$a3efbdf0$ebcf39d0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCC7CB5.000010.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Ron and David. Of course taking of private land for any reason is a socialist act, but there is also the law of eminent domain, coupled with benefit of the public to be considered. I need to check this out before further comment. I too have not heard of this til now. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ron Howden Date: 4/19/2010 7:58:06 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines According to the Forest Grove Utility Statement under Special Message the Oregon Pipeline Project will be discussed at a town hall meeting on April 20th at 10 am. It will at the Community Auditorium and is hosted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Ron H. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:38 AM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines Don, I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting involved in the energy sector. Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private property through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas Pipeline? It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. The radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, and yet no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/55beccb2/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 19 09:01:58 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:01:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911541C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Marian...I teach a class here on Theory and Criticism (literary, that is) and then one on Unbelief (Doubt, Skepticism). Both delve into these matters in some depth. Obviously, I'm dealing with the "know it all" age group...so, with your guidance, perhaps I could help start the kind of discussion that you mention here. One of the best places to start is with the notion called NOMA...an acronym for "Non-Overlapping Magisteria." This idea was introduced years ago by Stephen Jay Gould...who intended to keep science and religion in separate compartments. Richard Dawkins, of Cambridge, seeks to bring religion, for instance, under the rigorous, critical eye of the scientific method. He operates in a realm established by German scholars in the 1830s called Higher Criticism, so there is a pretty good track record for this. NOMA can also operate on other classes of ideas, claims, and ways of knowing. Shall we get started? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:51 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How do I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than another news organization? It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a discussion for the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I don't think we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already know it all. :) Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. > > One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what > constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of > how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make > it all the more complicated. > > Case closed. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jeff Howden > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > Don, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> Has anyone else heard about this find? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Yup, you and snopes both. > > http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Apr 19 09:02:47 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:02:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <898-4BCC7EA7-152@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Monday Morning... :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html2/monmorngarfield.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/6c8340db/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 19 09:11:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:11:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <7DB743BF-3E6C-47B7-8386-399C2ED9961C@teleport.com> Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >> >> Don, >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: donkelly >>> >>> Has anyone else heard about this find? >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> Yup, you and snopes both. >> >> http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 09:59:49 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:59:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines In-Reply-To: <4BCC7CB5.000010.02392@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> <019901cadfd0$a3efbdf0$ebcf39d0$@com> <4BCC7CB5.000010.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0422BA34-9AF7-49E8-9F5B-BF15946CF750@verizon.net> So Don, Does this mean that if the benefit of the public was very high that you would be in favor of using eminent domain for a socialist act? (Like the right of way for a highway or a rail road?) Or were those takings just socialism run amok? Katie On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:54 AM, donkelly wrote: > Ron and David. Of course taking of private land for any reason is a > socialist act, but there is also the law of eminent domain, coupled > with > benefit of the public to be considered. > > > > I need to check this out before further comment. I too have not > heard of > this til now. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Ron Howden > > Date: 4/19/2010 7:58:06 AM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas > lines > > > > According to the Forest Grove Utility Statement under Special > Message the > > Oregon Pipeline Project will be discussed at a town hall meeting on > April > > 20th at 10 am. It will at the Community Auditorium and is hosted by > the > > Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. > > > > Ron H. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > > Behalf Of David Morelli > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:38 AM > > To: grovenet > > Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines > > > > Don, > > > > I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking > > private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting > involved > > in the energy sector. > > > > Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private > property > > through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas > > Pipeline? > > > > It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? > > > > I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. > The > > radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, > and yet > > no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 19 10:00:54 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:00:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? Message-ID: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/1362c1d8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/1362c1d8/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/1362c1d8/attachment.png From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 10:17:54 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:17:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911541C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911541C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <7550925BF5544995BE341E20BF9BD72D@JeffVAIO> Mike, I will definitely have to check out NOMA - I hadn't heard of it before. Both of your classes sound interesting and I'd love to attend. Unfortunately, I am a full-time Linfield student and my time is very limited. If I ignored or became unlisted from GroveNet, it might free up a bit more time, but I enjoy some of the discussions. Instead of an ongoing class, would you be willing to do a one time presentation - perhaps at the library for the community? I'd make every effort to clear my calendar to attend. Is there any chance you would be willing to speak to a younger audience? It seems there are many parents who struggle with our information age. If you are too busy, could some education students prepare a class for a younger audience? Maybe it should be geared for grades 5-9 - they are the ones who are starting to delve into the online resources. I'd love to see this happen and think it would really benefit the community, along with some of your future students! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:01 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Marian...I teach a class here on Theory and Criticism (literary, that is) > and then one on Unbelief (Doubt, Skepticism). Both delve into these > matters in some depth. Obviously, I'm dealing with the "know it all" age > group...so, with your guidance, perhaps I could help start the kind of > discussion that you mention here. > > One of the best places to start is with the notion called NOMA...an > acronym for "Non-Overlapping Magisteria." This idea was introduced years > ago by Stephen Jay Gould...who intended to keep science and religion in > separate compartments. Richard Dawkins, of Cambridge, seeks to bring > religion, for instance, under the rigorous, critical eye of the scientific > method. He operates in a realm established by German scholars in the > 1830s called Higher Criticism, so there is a pretty good track record for > this. > > NOMA can also operate on other classes of ideas, claims, and ways of > knowing. > > Shall we get started? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:51 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How > do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a discussion > for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >> >> Don, >> >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>> From: donkelly >>> >>> Has anyone else heard about this find? >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> >> Yup, you and snopes both. >> >> http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 10:20:01 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:20:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <7DB743BF-3E6C-47B7-8386-399C2ED9961C@teleport.com> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <7DB743BF-3E6C-47B7-8386-399C2ED9961C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <56BDE61714AF4859B4A4C890ACF46AE1@JeffVAIO> Exactly my point! It is hard for adults to filter out reality, as evidenced by many of the forwarded e-mails I receive regularly. How to teach the kids takes on an entirely different realm. I'm hoping Mike Steel can help! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:11 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the > unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own > "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we > teach children to perceive reality? > WW > > On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How >> do we >> teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet >> age? How do >> I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than >> another news organization? >> >> It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be >> willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a >> discussion for >> the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I >> don't think >> we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already >> know it >> all. :) >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Steele, Mike" >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM >> To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >> >>> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >>> this. >>> >>> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >>> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >>> sense of >>> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >>> photoshopping make >>> it all the more complicated. >>> >>> Case closed. >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >>> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >>> >>> Don, >>> >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>>> < >>>> From: donkelly >>>> >>>> Has anyone else heard about this find? >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>>> < >>> >>> Yup, you and snopes both. >>> >>> http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 19 10:36:17 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:36:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911573D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Bob, this ought to be over in the other Grovenet thread...the one dealing with the alleged giant's skeleton. Of course, one is a hoax. This one, aside from being a complete laugher, is clearly one where the supposed "magisteria" do overlap. You have fundamentalist Koranic theology on the one hand and geophysics on the other. Which one is right? Can it be empirically measured and evaluated? Yep. Sure can. Of course, along these lines, the late Rev. Jerry Falwell blamed the WTC/Pentagon attacks on America's supposedly lax morals: ""I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" Brilliant interpretation there, Rev. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:01 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? Ignorance of science and a decision to keep oneself ignorant of science sure sounds like a far right position!! Although he may be right; he's just wrong on the size of the quakes ! ! ! bob "reminds me of a former local architect who argued that homosexuality lead to the same result" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [cid:image001.gif at 01CADFAC.0EAE66C0] [cid:image002.gif at 01CADFAC.0EAE66C0] Iranian cleric: Promiscuous women cause quakes By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer April 19, 2020 BEIRUT - A senior Iranian cleric says women who wear revealing clothing and behave promiscuously are to blame for earthquakes. Iran is one of the world's most earthquake-prone countries, and the cleric's unusual explanation for why the earth shakes follows a prediction by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that a quake is certain to hit Tehran and that many of its 12 million inhabitants should relocate. "Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi was quoted as saying by Iranian media. Women in the Islamic Republic are required by law to cover from head to toe, but many, especially the young, ignore some of the more strict codes and wear tight coats and scarves pulled back that show much of the hair. "What can we do to avoid being buried under the rubble?" Sedighi asked during a prayer sermon Friday. "There is no other solution but to take refuge in religion and to adapt our lives to Islam's moral codes." Seismologists have warned for at least two decades that it is likely the sprawling capital will be struck by a catastrophic quake in the near future. Some experts have even suggested Iran should move its capital to a less seismically active location. Tehran straddles scores of fault lines, including one more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) long, though it has not suffered a major quake since 1830. In 2003, a powerful earthquake hit the southern city of Bam, killing 31,000 people - about a quarter of that city's population - and destroying its ancient mud-built citadel. "A divine authority told me to tell the people to make a general repentance. Why? Because calamities threaten us," said Sedighi, Tehran's acting Friday prayer leader. Referring to the violence that followed last June's disputed presidential election, he said, "The political earthquake that occurred was a reaction to some of the actions (that took place). And now, if a natural earthquake hits Tehran, no one will be able to confront such a calamity but God's power, only God's power. ... So let's not disappoint God." The Iranian government and its security forces have been locked in a bloody battle with a large opposition movement that accuses Ahmadinejad of winning last year's vote by fraud. Ahmadinejad made his quake prediction two weeks ago but said he could not give an exact date. He acknowledged that he could not order all of Tehran's 12 million people to evacuate. "But provisions have to be made. ... At least 5 million should leave Tehran so it is less crowded," the president said. Minister of Welfare and Social Security Sadeq Mahsooli said prayers and pleas for forgiveness were the best "formulas to repel earthquakes." "We cannot invent a system that prevents earthquakes, but God has created this system and that is to avoid sins, to pray, to seek forgiveness, pay alms and self-sacrifice," Mahsooli said. Copyright (c) 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 826 bytes Desc: image002.gif Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/877f5035/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: image001.gif Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/877f5035/attachment-0001.gif From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 10:51:39 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <733725.96687.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> OMG! Alas, I must defend the poor Republicans. I can't think of any who deserve to be compared to such a whacko misogynist as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I also find it totally hysterical that the article was written by a famous Beirut-based associated news reporter who's first name is Scherezade. No doubt she was named after the fabulously witty and wise heroine from 1001 Arabian Nights who, through incomparably deft research and cleverness, transformed an evil Persian king into a wiser and kinder man, and spared her head (unlike his preceding 3,000 wives). But the Scheherezade who wrote the article that Bob linked us to has her work cut out for her. Now, wouldn't it change the world if the article written by this Scherezade had an equally transforming effect as the stories told by her namesake?! Holly ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 10:00:54 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? Ignorance of science and a decision to keep oneself ignorant of science sure sounds like a far right position!! Although he may be right; he's just wrong on the size of the quakes ! ! ! bob "reminds me of a former local architect who argued that homosexuality lead to the same result" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Iranian cleric: Promiscuous women cause quakes By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer April 19, 2020 BEIRUT ? A senior Iranian cleric says women who wear revealing clothing and behave promiscuously are to blame for earthquakes. Iran is one of the world's most earthquake-prone countries, and the cleric's unusual explanation for why the earth shakes follows a prediction by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that a quake is certain to hit Tehran and that many of its 12 million inhabitants should relocate. "Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi was quoted as saying by Iranian media. Women in the Islamic Republic are required by law to cover from head to toe, but many, especially the young, ignore some of the more strict codes and wear tight coats and scarves pulled back that show much of the hair. "What can we do to avoid being buried under the rubble?" Sedighi asked during a prayer sermon Friday. "There is no other solution but to take refuge in religion and to adapt our lives to Islam's moral codes." Seismologists have warned for at least two decades that it is likely the sprawling capital will be struck by a catastrophic quake in the near future. Some experts have even suggested Iran should move its capital to a less seismically active location. Tehran straddles scores of fault lines, including one more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) long, though it has not suffered a major quake since 1830. In 2003, a powerful earthquake hit the southern city of Bam, killing 31,000 people ? about a quarter of that city's population ? and destroying its ancient mud-built citadel. "A divine authority told me to tell the people to make a general repentance. Why? Because calamities threaten us," said Sedighi, Tehran's acting Friday prayer leader. Referring to the violence that followed last June's disputed presidential election, he said, "The political earthquake that occurred was a reaction to some of the actions (that took place). And now, if a natural earthquake hits Tehran, no one will be able to confront such a calamity but God's power, only God's power. ... So let's not disappoint God." The Iranian government and its security forces have been locked in a bloody battle with a large opposition movement that accuses Ahmadinejad of winning last year's vote by fraud. Ahmadinejad made his quake prediction two weeks ago but said he could not give an exact date. He acknowledged that he could not order all of Tehran's 12 million people to evacuate. "But provisions have to be made. ... At least 5 million should leave Tehran so it is less crowded," the president said. Minister of Welfare and Social Security Sadeq Mahsooli said prayers and pleas for forgiveness were the best "formulas to repel earthquakes." "We cannot invent a system that prevents earthquakes, but God has created this system and that is to avoid sins, to pray, to seek forgiveness, pay alms and self-sacrifice," Mahsooli said. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 19 11:08:02 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:08:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . Message-ID: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/2f498b48/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: minithologo_white.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3282 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/2f498b48/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: minithologo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3200 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/2f498b48/attachment-0001.jpg From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 19 11:16:16 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:16:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Bob...count me in. As you know, I had a heart attack last October...the attending heart specialist's report clearly shows that a defibrillator helped save my life...he lost track of how many times he used it on me...5 or 6 times within an hour. When I took the handball team to the Houston Y in February, several of the players took the time to point out the AEDs around the building-just in case. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:08 AM To: Grovenet; Michael Sykes; Pete Truax; John Schrag; Chamber Director; Pastor Jennifer Yocum; Pete Van Dyke Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when needed. Such a program would cost some tens of thousands of dollars (you can get an AED down to about $500 to $600 each with a big single purchase; we would likely need as many as 100 to 150 units), but the payoff to the community, both in terms of recognition for the effort and for the health of our citizens and customers would be priceless!! I would be willing to head up the effort if there is any interest from the local service clubs, city hall, the Chamber, and the various churches. It would also appear that the fire department would be a good group to monitor the effort at the same time as they check on fire extinguishers. What a great project this could be, and it could really give FG a boost as the place to live and work - "We care about you!!". bob "who knows; with my heart I may need it someday" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [cid:image001.jpg at 01CADFB1.BA75FAE0] AED use doubles cardiac-arrest survival April 16, 2010 | Shelley Wood Washington, DC - Beefed up with the inclusion of more than 3000 patients over an additional five months of follow-up, published results from the Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium (ROC)-first presented at the 2007 AHA meeting-clearly show that automated external defibrillators (AEDs) can improve survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, even when untrained laypersons are the ones applying the life-saving device [1]. "Application of an AED in communities is associated with nearly a doubling of survival after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest," the authors, led by Dr Myron L Weisfeldt (Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD), report in the April 20, 2010 issue of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. "These results reinforce the importance of strategically expanding community-based AED programs." As previously reported by heartwire, the earlier glimpse at the study results, covering 12 months, suggested that out of 10 663 people who suffered an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, those who had AEDs applied had an unadjusted two- to threefold higher likelihood of surviving than if they had cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), but no AED was used. Now, in the published study, Weisfeldt et al report results for 13 769 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests from seven locations across the US and three in Canada. Of those, one-third (4403) received CPR from a bystander but had no AED applied before emergency services arrived, while just 2.1% (289 subjects) had an AED applied. Just 7% of patients who received CPR survived to hospital discharge, as compared with 24% of patients who had the AED applied. The proportion of survivors increased to 38% if an AED was applied and a shock was delivered. Weisfeldt and colleagues also controlled for a wide range of potential confounders, including age, location of arrest, delay to emergency response, and whether the arrest was witnessed, among other factors. Even taking all these things into account, they concluded, use of an AED increased survival by 75% (odds ratio 1.75; 95% CI 1.23-2.50). "Extrapolating this greater survival from the ROC [emergency medical services] EMS population base (21 million) to the population of US and Canada (330 million), AED application by bystanders seems to save 474 lives per year," the authors conclude. Of note, nonmedical "lay volunteers" constituted the largest group of people applying the AEDs (35%), followed by healthcare workers (32%) and police officers (26%). Moreover, survivors among those who had had an AED applied were more likely to have collapsed in public, rather than at home or in another private setting. While public-placement strategies for AEDs clearly have an "established role," it's also worth studying ways of optimizing "private AED deployment," they conclude. Source 1. Weisfeldt ML, Sitlani CM, Ornato JP, et al. Survival after application of automatic external defibrillators before arrival of the emergency medical system: Evaluation in the Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium population of 21 million. J Am Coll Cardiol 2010; 55:1713-1720. Related links * Automated external defibrillators save lives, as long as they're in the right place [Arrhythmia/EP > Arrhythmia/EP; Jul 27, 2009] * Out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: Location is all [Arrhythmia/EP > Arrhythmia/EP; Sep 23, 2008] * AED use by bystanders improves survival after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest [heartwire > Medscape Medical News; Nov 06, 2007] [cid:image002.jpg at 01CADFB1.BA75FAE0] Copyright (r)1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3282 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/e7ac82ef/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3200 bytes Desc: image002.jpg Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/e7ac82ef/attachment-0001.jpg From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 19 11:22:14 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/cc5f9595/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 19 11:40:02 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:40:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <7550925BF5544995BE341E20BF9BD72D@JeffVAIO> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911541C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <7550925BF5544995BE341E20BF9BD72D@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115985@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Marian...I do lots of work on behalf of the library, both at PU and the city library. In fact, Prof. Lynda Irons just this morning did a great job of presenting a research orientation to one of my classes...and we just sent it out to another class. A librarian would be a good resource for younger folks. One of my areas of study is the Holocaust. A few years ago, I presented a paper at a conference at Keane U in NJ on the matter of Holocaust denial and the Internet. Here's a version of this paper via the PU Berglund Center: http://bcis.pacificu.edu/journal/2001/02/steele.php The basic issue here is one of recognizing the fraudulent from the factual. I'll share this with my librarian friends. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:18 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Mike, I will definitely have to check out NOMA - I hadn't heard of it before. Both of your classes sound interesting and I'd love to attend. Unfortunately, I am a full-time Linfield student and my time is very limited. If I ignored or became unlisted from GroveNet, it might free up a bit more time, but I enjoy some of the discussions. Instead of an ongoing class, would you be willing to do a one time presentation - perhaps at the library for the community? I'd make every effort to clear my calendar to attend. Is there any chance you would be willing to speak to a younger audience? It seems there are many parents who struggle with our information age. If you are too busy, could some education students prepare a class for a younger audience? Maybe it should be geared for grades 5-9 - they are the ones who are starting to delve into the online resources. I'd love to see this happen and think it would really benefit the community, along with some of your future students! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:01 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Marian...I teach a class here on Theory and Criticism (literary, that is) > and then one on Unbelief (Doubt, Skepticism). Both delve into these > matters in some depth. Obviously, I'm dealing with the "know it all" age > group...so, with your guidance, perhaps I could help start the kind of > discussion that you mention here. > > One of the best places to start is with the notion called NOMA...an > acronym for "Non-Overlapping Magisteria." This idea was introduced years > ago by Stephen Jay Gould...who intended to keep science and religion in > separate compartments. Richard Dawkins, of Cambridge, seeks to bring > religion, for instance, under the rigorous, critical eye of the scientific > method. He operates in a realm established by German scholars in the > 1830s called Higher Criticism, so there is a pretty good track record for > this. > > NOMA can also operate on other classes of ideas, claims, and ways of > knowing. > > Shall we get started? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:51 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How > do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a discussion > for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Jeff Howden >> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >> >> Don, >> >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>> From: donkelly >>> >>> Has anyone else heard about this find? >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> >> Yup, you and snopes both. >> >> http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 19 11:45:58 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying back to a country that kept you afloat whenyou needed something. In-Reply-To: <323047.34084.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <43E8F57D-A125-4DED-9558-FDC51BB38DB1@VERIZON.NET> <4BC9F8F5.000012.04876@DON-B2514E06367> <4217AEAA-21D6-4CD9-ABF0-50244C2777A1@teleport.com> <323047.34084.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCCA4E6.3000201@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100419/eac57866/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 13:02:52 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:02:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines In-Reply-To: <4BCC7CB5.000010.02392@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> <019901cadfd0$a3efbdf0$ebcf39d0$@com> <4BCC7CB5.000010.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <44B610E1-35DD-4445-87B0-6AF0E2093E72@verizon.net> We may make a liberal out of you yet. In this case, and the two competing plans, the public benefit would be that the private company acquiring the easement isn't going to pay as much for the easement rights as a competitive free market would provide. And this will provide a financial benefit to the private company in the form of lower capital costs and higher operating profits. The state of Oregon would normally regulate the siting of utility easements and conduct the eminent domain process, but Oregon had problems accepting the project. It was mostly "cost" and very little "benefit" for Oregon. So, the private company turned to the Federal government to override the State's siting process with a Federal one. You may have your choice of issues, you can consider the taking of private property from one group to provide it to another private group for private use while calling it "public benefit", or you can take issue with the Federal government taking over a state function to suit the economic needs of a company controlled for the benefit of a different state. David On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:54 AM, donkelly wrote: > Ron and David. Of course taking of private land for any reason is a socialist act, but there is also the law of eminent domain, coupled with benefit of the public to be considered. > > I need to check this out before further comment. I too have not heard of this til now. > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 13:08:37 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:08:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <3B9B69AF-FF81-41CE-837C-016B9D4B8C09@verizon.net> We were lucky. We took our children on a tour of Universal Studios and they got to see how all the special effects were created. That provided them with a better appreciation between what they saw and what was real. After that, when we would watch a show together and they would ask, "Why did they do that?" Our stock answer was, "because the show's writer thought that it would be more exciting to watch." The came away with a understanding that a lot of what is presented is done to make "a good show". I would observe that the Congressional debate over health care and "Survivors" reality TV both share focus. The speeches were crafted to make a good show. Which raises advertiser revenue. David On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How do I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than another news organization? > ... > Marian From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 19 13:25:18 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:25:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Series Overview: Trust In Government Message-ID: <19cb01cadffe$6ec434c0$4c4c9e40$@com> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126112605&f=1014&sc=tw Jeff From hannah at teleport.com Mon Apr 19 14:40:07 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:40:07 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] seeing real from fantasy class In-Reply-To: <0422BA34-9AF7-49E8-9F5B-BF15946CF750@verizon.net> Message-ID: As long as you are thinking through this... Consider information for adults who think they are old enough to know...but... I can cite a bright, college-educated, young senior who once sent me one of those email messages letting me know I should forward her note because Bill Gates was counting all the emails that went out and I'd get $50 for sending out fifteen...or whatever... She did not seem to have any concept that Bill has better things to do with his time...can't tell what I am sending...and if she sent 15, and each of us then sent 15, and each of them sent 15...it would take very little time until Bill would owe more than he has...and that's saying a lot. I was stunned that she believed. She's even a "math major" brain in the past...so it says to me, anyone can get 'caught up' in non-reality. Whenever I do, my daughter kindly sends me a note with one word on it... snopes It has improved my skepticism quite a lot. 8-) Seniors, who are used to things being as they appear, could use some assistance too. Kristy From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 14:48:07 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:48:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . .. . . In-Reply-To: <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <21070225439C4B47B46C1C374BF7F472@JeffVAIO> It might be a good idea to determine which locations might already have AED's. Often golf courses and fitness clubs have them. Maybe you could get a Boy Scout or Girl Scout troop to develop a list of where they need to be, determine where they already exist, etc. I agree - they are really needed and the drop in cost makes them more affordable than ever. I think Costco sells a home version for less than $1500. So, I would think a more commercial version shouldn't be much more than $3,000. - especially if they are ordered in volume. For a significant size order (~100), you might even be able to buy them directly from the manufacturer - Phillips is one manufacturer, I'm sure there are others. Marian From: Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:22 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Cc: Pastor Jennifer Yocum ; Pete Truax ; Michael Sykes ; Pete Van Dyke ; Chamber Director Subject: Re: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . .. . . Damn straight; a perfect example of why we ought to do this ! ! ! ! bob "hold my heart, will you" browning PS: One of the sad things is that Tuality does not give out email addresses for their people. Otherwise Dick Stenson would also have been cc'd. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/19/2010 11:16 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Bob...count me in. As you know, I had a heart attack last October...the attending heart specialist's report clearly shows that a defibrillator helped save my life...he lost track of how many times he used it on me...5 or 6 times within an hour. When I took the handball team to the Houston Y in February, several of the players took the time to point out the AEDs around the building-just in case. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:08 AM To: Grovenet; Michael Sykes; Pete Truax; John Schrag; Chamber Director; Pastor Jennifer Yocum; Pete Van Dyke Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when needed. Such a program would cost some tens of thousands of dollars (you can get an AED down to about $500 to $600 each with a big single purchase; we would likely need as many as 100 to 150 units), but the payoff to the community, both in terms of recognition for the effort and for the health of our citizens and customers would be priceless!! I would be willing to head up the effort if there is any interest from the local service clubs, city hall, the Chamber, and the various churches. It would also appear that the fire department would be a good group to monitor the effort at the same time as they check on fire extinguishers. What a great project this could be, and it could really give FG a boost as the place to live and work - "We care about you!!". bob "who knows; with my heart I may need it someday" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 15:04:40 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:04:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] seeing real from fantasy class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41B5115D-4FB6-41B4-97A0-2162E33AA21D@verizon.net> I've had this problem recently with my mother who is like a child with the internet...believing everything that is forwarded to her, and then passing it along. --Martha K. On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > As long as you are thinking through this... > Consider information for adults who think they are old enough to > know...but... > > I can cite a bright, college-educated, young senior who once sent me > one of > those email messages letting me know I should forward her note > because Bill > Gates was counting all the emails that went out and I'd get $50 for > sending > out fifteen...or whatever... > > She did not seem to have any concept that Bill has better things to > do with > his time...can't tell what I am sending...and if she sent 15, and > each of us > then sent 15, and each of them sent 15...it would take very little > time > until Bill would owe more than he has...and that's saying a lot. > > I was stunned that she believed. She's even a "math major" brain in > the > past...so it says to me, anyone can get 'caught up' in non-reality. > > Whenever I do, my daughter kindly sends me a note with one word on > it... > snopes > > It has improved my skepticism quite a lot. 8-) > > Seniors, who are used to things being as they appear, could use some > assistance too. > Kristy > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 15:22:22 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:22:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <3B9B69AF-FF81-41CE-837C-016B9D4B8C09@verizon.net> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <3B9B69AF-FF81-41CE-837C-016B9D4B8C09@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2E0855C8FBCB45229BB577F33CBF7422@JeffVAIO> Thanks David... But how can she research a school project on the internet and determine which is good solid factual information and which is not? Many kids use Wikipedia and apparently there are some teachers who recommend it. How do I tell her that generally OPB (in my opinion) is fairly trustworthy and FOX news isn't? I can work on explaining how statistics can be skewed and facts can be omitted, etc. But trying to explain why one source is trustworthy and another isn't is not easy. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 1:08 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > We were lucky. We took our children on a tour of Universal Studios and > they got to see how all the special effects were created. That provided > them with a better appreciation between what they saw and what was real. > After that, when we would watch a show together and they would ask, "Why > did they do that?" Our stock answer was, "because the show's writer > thought that it would be more exciting to watch." > > The came away with a understanding that a lot of what is presented is done > to make "a good show". > > I would observe that the Congressional debate over health care and > "Survivors" reality TV both share focus. The speeches were crafted to > make a good show. Which raises advertiser revenue. > > David > > On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we >> teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How >> do I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than >> another news organization? >> ... >> Marian > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 19 16:45:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:45:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911573D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D911573D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <939FDBE3-9BF0-4E01-BEA2-26FA4F5C30B7@teleport.com> And yet, if after sincere repentance and endless prayer, the quake hits anyway... will the faith of the survivors be affected? Not in the slightest, I suspect. WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 10:36 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Bob, this ought to be over in the other Grovenet thread...the one > dealing with the alleged giant's skeleton. Of course, one is a > hoax. This one, aside from being a complete laugher, is clearly > one where the supposed "magisteria" do overlap. You have > fundamentalist Koranic theology on the one hand and geophysics on > the other. Which one is right? Can it be empirically measured and > evaluated? Yep. Sure can. Of course, along these lines, the late > Rev. Jerry Falwell blamed the WTC/Pentagon attacks on America's > supposedly lax morals: ""I really believe that the pagans en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism>, and the abortionists en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion>, and the feminists en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist>, and the gays en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay> and the lesbians wiki/Lesbian> who are actively trying to make that an alternative > lifestyle, the ACLU, People For > the American Way People_For_the_American_Way>, all of them who have tried to > secularize America. I point > the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" > > Brilliant interpretation there, Rev. > > --Mike > > ________________________________ > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:01 AM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? > > Ignorance of science and a decision to keep oneself ignorant of > science sure sounds like a far right position!! Although he may be > right; he's just wrong on the size of the quakes ! ! ! > > bob "reminds me of a former local architect who argued that > homosexuality lead to the same result" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > [cid:image001.gif at 01CADFAC.0EAE66C0] > > [cid:image002.gif at 01CADFAC.0EAE66C0] > Iranian cleric: Promiscuous women cause quakes > By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer > April 19, 2020 > > BEIRUT - A senior Iranian cleric says women who wear revealing > clothing and behave promiscuously are to blame for earthquakes. > > Iran is one of the world's most earthquake-prone countries, and the > cleric's unusual explanation for why the earth shakes follows a > prediction by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that a quake is certain > to hit Tehran and that many of its 12 million inhabitants should > relocate. > > "Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, > corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which > (consequently) increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi > was quoted as saying by Iranian media. > > Women in the Islamic Republic are required by law to cover from > head to toe, but many, especially the young, ignore some of the > more strict codes and wear tight coats and scarves pulled back that > show much of the hair. > > "What can we do to avoid being buried under the rubble?" Sedighi > asked during a prayer sermon Friday. "There is no other solution > but to take refuge in religion and to adapt our lives to Islam's > moral codes." > > Seismologists have warned for at least two decades that it is > likely the sprawling capital will be struck by a catastrophic quake > in the near future. > > Some experts have even suggested Iran should move its capital to a > less seismically active location. Tehran straddles scores of fault > lines, including one more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) long, > though it has not suffered a major quake since 1830. > > In 2003, a powerful earthquake hit the southern city of Bam, > killing 31,000 people - about a quarter of that city's population - > and destroying its ancient mud-built citadel. > > "A divine authority told me to tell the people to make a general > repentance. Why? Because calamities threaten us," said Sedighi, > Tehran's acting Friday prayer leader. > > Referring to the violence that followed last June's disputed > presidential election, he said, "The political earthquake that > occurred was a reaction to some of the actions (that took place). > And now, if a natural earthquake hits Tehran, no one will be able > to confront such a calamity but God's power, only God's power. ... > So let's not disappoint God." > > The Iranian government and its security forces have been locked in > a bloody battle with a large opposition movement that accuses > Ahmadinejad of winning last year's vote by fraud. > > Ahmadinejad made his quake prediction two weeks ago but said he > could not give an exact date. He acknowledged that he could not > order all of Tehran's 12 million people to evacuate. "But > provisions have to be made. ... At least 5 million should leave > Tehran so it is less crowded," the president said. > > Minister of Welfare and Social Security Sadeq Mahsooli said prayers > and pleas for forgiveness were the best "formulas to repel > earthquakes." > > "We cannot invent a system that prevents earthquakes, but God has > created this system and that is to avoid sins, to pray, to seek > forgiveness, pay alms and self-sacrifice," Mahsooli said. > Copyright (c) 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > __________________________________________ > _____ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Mon Apr 19 17:12:28 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:12:28 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <939FDBE3-9BF0-4E01-BEA2-26FA4F5C30B7@teleport.com> Message-ID: Of course not...it will be the fault of those floosies with their hair peeking out of their scarves. KG On 4/19/10 6:45 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: > And yet, if after sincere repentance and endless prayer, the quake > hits anyway... will the faith of the survivors be affected? Not in > the slightest, I suspect. > WW From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 19 17:20:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 17:20:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] seeing real from fantasy class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95533576-5185-4185-BEAB-603232350E9F@teleport.com> Say, if all of us cashed in on that note from the Bank of Nigeria, informing us that we were eligible to receive the estate of a deceased millionaire with no heirs, we could retire the national debt! ;^) On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > As long as you are thinking through this... > Consider information for adults who think they are old enough to > know...but... > > I can cite a bright, college-educated, young senior who once sent > me one of > those email messages letting me know I should forward her note > because Bill > Gates was counting all the emails that went out and I'd get $50 for > sending > out fifteen...or whatever... > > She did not seem to have any concept that Bill has better things to > do with > his time...can't tell what I am sending...and if she sent 15, and > each of us > then sent 15, and each of them sent 15...it would take very little > time > until Bill would owe more than he has...and that's saying a lot. > > I was stunned that she believed. She's even a "math major" brain in > the > past...so it says to me, anyone can get 'caught up' in non-reality. > > Whenever I do, my daughter kindly sends me a note with one word on > it... > snopes > > It has improved my skepticism quite a lot. 8-) > > Seniors, who are used to things being as they appear, could use some > assistance too. > Kristy > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 19 18:47:22 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:47:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts Message-ID: <1ad201cae02b$7438b750$5caa25f0$@com> It all starts somewhere. Nearly always, the question is where. Well, here's a documented case of not just "what", but "where" too. It all started with an article on ESPNOutdoors.com that contained a serious dose of opinion/speculating without any sort of appropriate disclaimer. Here's a wackadoo blogger taking the "story" and running with it in true conspiratorial fashion: http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/obamas-latest-assault-on-freedo m-new-regulations-will-ban-sport-fishing/ Here's the Rush push of the absurd claims. http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003100021 Followed not too long by Beck echoing the same ridiculous claims: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003100040 More on analysis of the issue: http://mediamatters.org/research/201003100014 And then thoroughly torn apart by Politifact.com and called out as the pants on fire claim it is. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/17/rush-limbaugh /rush-limbaugh-says-because-obama-people-cant-go-fi/ The moral of the story is that not everything you hear in the media is as it seems. In the case of Rush and Beck they have plenty to gain (ratings) by pushing these lies. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 20:39:00 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:39:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCD21CE.000005.04040@DON-B2514E06367> David, I don't know about the gas line and would like to learn something before I make a comment. I know that California had the same trouble years ago, but then it was a shortage of water for LA. If the gas line comes from Astoria, it has to be Canadian resources. I have to ask myself who benefits here, Oregon or California. And what corporation benefits from this pipeline. Local impact? There are a number of feeder gas lines running along the edge of farms around here, according to road signs in any case. The impact on the local farms seem minimal at best. And what is the path of the proposed pipeline? Down I 5 makes sense, but through this area makes no sense. Anyway, hope we can learn more. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/19/2010 7:39:42 AM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines Don, I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting involved in the energy sector. Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private property through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas Pipeline? It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. The radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, and yet no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/9c12c006/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 20:49:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:49:01 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCD2424.000008.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Well, at least the Greenie Boppers know something about this. http://www.pacificgreens.org/cat-campaigns/no-lng After reading it (slanted of course) what do you think? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/19/2010 7:39:42 AM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines Don, I recall that you have commented against the Federal government taking private lands, and that you opposed the Federal government getting involved in the energy sector. Would you care to comment on the current process of taking private property through eminent domain for the proposed Astoria-California Natural Gas Pipeline? It would appear to be Corporate Socialism to me, how about you? I am a bit surprised that there has been so little comment lately. The radio said that there would be a hearing in Forest Grove this week, and yet no one has posted a time and place. At least not recently. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/5f09357a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 20:57:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:57:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BCD2614.000010.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Marian, It's not easy to know what all is necessary to teach our kids. I'm sure that fully deciding that task will not be easy. But your idea for group support seems promising. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/19/2010 8:48:23 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How do we teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet age? How do I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than another news organization? It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a discussion for the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I don't think we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already know it all. :) Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like this. > > One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what > constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary sense of > how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and photoshopping make > it all the more complicated. > > Case closed. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jeff Howden > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:55 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > Don, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> Has anyone else heard about this find? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Yup, you and snopes both. > > http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/271ce123/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 21:09:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:09:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts References: <1ad201cae02b$7438b750$5caa25f0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCD28EF.000015.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Just got another one, this time with real numbers. Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America By Unknown Financial Coup d'Etat - Divide & Conquer Obama always deceptively frames the bailout discussion in relation to the $700 Billion TARP program. He, along with the mainstream media, always seems to Gloss over the fact that the bailout is much more than just the TARP program TARP is a mere 2% of this multifaceted scam. His proposal of a tax on Wall Street firms to get some of our tax money back is Estimated to bring in $90 billion over the next ten years. That works out to $9 Billion a year, compare that to the $150 billion in bonuses handed out by these Same firms just in the past year! The top Wall Street firms would no longer Even exist if we didn?t bail them out. Their profits are a direct result of our Tax money. If Obama is serious about getting our money back, 100% of the Record-breaking bonus money that these thieves gave themselves should be going Back into the tax system that it came from to pay down our national debt, lower Our tax rates and create jobs. The $150 billion in bonuses handed out this year cost you $500 of your Hard-earned money. For a family of four, that?s $2000 that was taken from you And your family just this year and given directly to Wall Street bonuses. Think About that Your personal money was taken from you and your family, and given Directly to Goldman Sachs CEO Llyod Blankfein. In fact, your direct gift to Wall Street is much more than that; the $2000 your family lost was just for This year?s bonuses, much more of your money was given away in the bailout. The Real size of the bailout is estimated to be $14 trillion, which works out to be $46,662 for every man, woman and child in America. Is the sanity in government gone? It certainly appears so. Do we want the Inmates running the asylum? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/91e97bd8/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 21:52:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:52:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? References: <4BCC8C46.8050007@jurislex.com> <733725.96687.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCD3306.00001B.04040@DON-B2514E06367> The very least problem Mahmoud (A Jordanian name by the way) is being a fruitcake. Don -------Original Message------- From: Holly T. Date: 4/19/2010 10:51:56 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? OMG! Alas, I must defend the poor Republicans. I can't think of any who deserve to be compared to such a whacko misogynist as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I also find it totally hysterical that the article was written by a famous Beirut-based associated news reporter who's first name is Scherezade. No doubt she was named after the fabulously witty and wise heroine from 1001 Arabian Nights who, through incomparably deft research and cleverness, transformed an evil Persian king into a wiser and kinder man, and spared her head (unlike his preceding 3,000 wives). But the Scheherezade who wrote the article that Bob linked us to has her work cut out for her. Now, wouldn't it change the world if the article written by this Scherezade had an equally transforming effect as the stories told by her namesake?! Holly ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 10:00:54 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? Ignorance of science and a decision to keep oneself ignorant of science sure sounds like a far right position!! Although he may be right; he's just wrong on the size of the quakes ! ! ! bob "reminds me of a former local architect who argued that homosexuality lead to the same result" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Iranian cleric: Promiscuous women cause quakes By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer April 19, 2020 BEIRUT ? A senior Iranian cleric says women who wear revealing clothing and behave promiscuously are to blame for earthquakes. Iran is one of the world's most earthquake-prone countries, and the cleric's unusual explanation for why the earth shakes follows a prediction by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that a quake is certain to hit Tehran and that many of its 12 million inhabitants should relocate. "Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi was quoted as saying by Iranian media. Women in the Islamic Republic are required by law to cover from head to toe, but many, especially the young, ignore some of the more strict codes and wear tight coats and scarves pulled back that show much of the hair. "What can we do to avoid being buried under the rubble?" Sedighi asked during a prayer sermon Friday. "There is no other solution but to take refuge in religion and to adapt our lives to Islam's moral codes." Seismologists have warned for at least two decades that it is likely the sprawling capital will be struck by a catastrophic quake in the near future. Some experts have even suggested Iran should move its capital to a less seismically active location. Tehran straddles scores of fault lines, including one more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) long, though it has not suffered a major quake since 1830. In 2003, a powerful earthquake hit the southern city of Bam, killing 31,000 people ? about a quarter of that city's population ? and destroying its ancient mud-built citadel. "A divine authority told me to tell the people to make a general repentance. Why? Because calamities threaten us," said Sedighi, Tehran's acting Friday prayer leader. Referring to the violence that followed last June's disputed presidential election, he said, "The political earthquake that occurred was a reaction to some of the actions (that took place). And now, if a natural earthquake hits Tehran, no one will be able to confront such a calamity but God's power, only God's power. ... So let's not disappoint God." The Iranian government and its security forces have been locked in a bloody battle with a large opposition movement that accuses Ahmadinejad of winning last year's vote by fraud. Ahmadinejad made his quake prediction two weeks ago but said he could not give an exact date. He acknowledged that he could not order all of Tehran's 12 million people to evacuate. "But provisions have to be made. ... At least 5 million should leave Tehran so it is less crowded," the president said. Minister of Welfare and Social Security Sadeq Mahsooli said prayers and pleas for forgiveness were the best "formulas to repel earthquakes." "We cannot invent a system that prevents earthquakes, but God has created this system and that is to avoid sins, to pray, to seek forgiveness, pay alms and self-sacrifice," Mahsooli said. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/4bf8b563/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 22:46:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:46:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? References: Message-ID: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> T in C, I believe Mahmoud caused the quake by digging too deep into fault lines to hide his nuclear facilities. I would observe that higher being justice should visit his underground facilities with fatal results. Don -------Original Message------- From: Kristy Gravlin Date: 4/19/2010 5:12:45 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? Of course not...it will be the fault of those floosies with their hair peeking out of their scarves. KG On 4/19/10 6:45 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: > And yet, if after sincere repentance and endless prayer, the quake > hits anyway... will the faith of the survivors be affected? Not in > the slightest, I suspect. > WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/4e4f2492/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 22:53:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:53:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . .. . . References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> <21070225439C4B47B46C1C374BF7F472@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BCD4148.00002A.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Bench Mark Electronics could be asked to share the costs. When I worked there we built the boards for the defib units. Don't know who assembled them, but they were intended to be placed inside shopping centers. Don't worry, Bench Mark Electronics would not have allowed me to test and repair the boards if I were not capable and trust worthy. A failed board could mean the death of a citizen, but not on my watch. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 4/19/2010 2:44:32 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be .. . . It might be a good idea to determine which locations might already have AED s. Often golf courses and fitness clubs have them. Maybe you could get a Boy Scout or Girl Scout troop to develop a list of where they need to be, determine where they already exist, etc. I agree - they are really needed and the drop in cost makes them more affordable than ever. I think Costco sells a home version for less than $1500. So, I would think a more commercial version shouldn't be much more than $3,000. - especially if they are ordered in volume. For a significant size order (~100), you might even be able to buy them directly from the manufacturer - Phillips is one manufacturer, I'm sure there are others. Marian From: Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:22 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Cc: Pastor Jennifer Yocum ; Pete Truax ; Michael Sykes ; Pete Van Dyke ; Chamber Director Subject: Re: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be .. . . Damn straight; a perfect example of why we ought to do this ! ! ! ! bob "hold my heart, will you" browning PS: One of the sad things is that Tuality does not give out email addresses for their people. Otherwise Dick Stenson would also have been cc'd. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/19/2010 11:16 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: Bob...count me in. As you know, I had a heart attack last October...the attending heart specialist's report clearly shows that a defibrillator helped save my life...he lost track of how many times he used it on me...5 or 6 times within an hour. When I took the handball team to the Houston Y in February, several of the players took the time to point out the AEDs around the building-just in case. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:08 AM To: Grovenet; Michael Sykes; Pete Truax; John Schrag; Chamber Director; Pastor Jennifer Yocum; Pete Van Dyke Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when needed. Such a program would cost some tens of thousands of dollars (you can get an AED down to about $500 to $600 each with a big single purchase; we would likely need as many as 100 to 150 units), but the payoff to the community, both in terms of recognition for the effort and for the health of our citizens and customers would be priceless!! I would be willing to head up the effort if there is any interest from the local service clubs, city hall, the Chamber, and the various churches. It would also appear that the fire department would be a good group to monitor the effort at the same time as they check on fire extinguishers. What a great project this could be, and it could really give FG a boost as the place to live and work - "We care about you!!". bob "who knows; with my heart I may need it someday" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100419/749cbb2f/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 23:29:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:29:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land In-Reply-To: <2E0855C8FBCB45229BB577F33CBF7422@JeffVAIO> References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <3B9B69AF-FF81-41CE-837C-016B9D4B8C09@verizon.net> <2E0855C8FBCB45229BB577F33CBF7422@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Doing good research is time consuming. I find it rewarding, but my wife wishes I would spend less time on the internet. So, it is quite possible that a student doing a school project would not choose to spend the time necessary to find good solid information sources. If you can help them identify sources, you have "done good". For an overview, encourage her to take one topic, go to wikipedia or FOX or OPB, and note the significant facts presented. Then go to the sources in the footnotes in Wikipedia and see how well they were presented. In the case of FOX or OPB have her chase the "facts" as far up stream as possible. See if she can locate the original documents that established the facts, not just the talking heads that reference them. After doing this once or twice, she should recognize the sources that misquote or misapply the basic facts. After that, she can discount the weak sources, and rely on those that have been consistently accurate. David On Apr 19, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Thanks David... > > But how can she research a school project on the internet and determine which is good solid factual information and which is not? Many kids use Wikipedia and apparently there are some teachers who recommend it. How do I tell her that generally OPB (in my opinion) is fairly trustworthy and FOX news isn't? I can work on explaining how statistics can be skewed and facts can be omitted, etc. But trying to explainwhy one source is trustworthy and another isn't is not easy. > > Marian From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 19 23:39:38 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:39:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts In-Reply-To: <4BCD28EF.000015.04040@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1ad201cae02b$7438b750$5caa25f0$@com> <4BCD28EF.000015.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <003c01cae054$408cbb80$c1a63280$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Just got another one, this time with real numbers. > > Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America By > Unknown Financial Coup d'Etat - Divide & Conquer > > Obama always deceptively frames the bailout discussion in relation > to the $700 Billion TARP program. He, along with the mainstream > media, always seems to Gloss over the fact that the bailout is > much more than just the TARP program. TARP is a mere 2% of this > multifaceted scam. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< A 35 Trillion dollar scam, eh? The sheer magnitude of that number makes the above hypothesis as believable as the dinosaurs having gone extinct with the great biblical flood. I can google with the best of them. http://ampedstatus.com/part-iv-the-financial-coup-detat-the-economic-elite-v s-the-people-of-the-united-states-of-america Did anybody bother to let the cat out of the bag that the TARP program was Bush-era legislation? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > His proposal of a tax on Wall Street firms to get some of our tax > money back is Estimated to bring in $90 billion over the next ten > years. That works out to $9 Billion a year, compare that to the > $150 billion in bonuses handed out by these Same firms. just in > the past year! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Actually, the bonuses are closer to $200 billion, by some estimations. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/01/tax-break-bonus/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The Real size of the bailout is estimated to be $14 trillion, which > works out to be $46,662 for every man, woman and child in America. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Does the original author of the article account at all for the money the banks have paid back towards their TARP allocations? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704869304574595600479204352.ht ml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program#Participants http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63B05N20100412 I'm not pretending to understand everything David DeGraw says in his articles. However, something doesn't sit right with me after only an hour or so of research. I smell the need to sell a book possibly tainting the enthusiasm with which he delivers his theories. Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 00:01:32 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Socialism, taking land private land and Gas lines In-Reply-To: <4BCD21CE.000005.04040@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8E2DA121-4EF5-44D6-A207-F6C1F679AC95@verizon.net> <4BCD21CE.000005.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <86441717-9F10-4D19-A75D-6E5D2BD142FD@verizon.net> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:39 PM, donkelly wrote: > David, I don't know about the gas line and would like to learn something before I make a comment. Wouldn't that spoil the fun? I mean, you got all excited about the giant heads thing. How about it is a round metal tube that carries high pressure gas from Astoria to Mollalla so it can be shipped to California. > > If the gas line comes from Astoria, it has to be Canadian resources. No, the Canadian resources come down through Washington on their way to California. We get our Natural Gas supplies from the existing pipeline. The proposed source for the LNG terminal is the world spot market. As if we are going to successfully compete with China for natural gas in the near future. > > I have to ask myself who benefits here, Oregon or California. Cost / Benefit analysis. Oregon gets the pipe, California gets the gas. The location runs through Gales Creek Valley near the grade school, near the Forest Grove water line, near the Gales Creek Highway, and then over the hill to Gaston. One land owner in Gales Creek, for example, would have the pipeline permanently sever their connection to their well with no compensation to drill a new one. > > And what corporation benefits from this pipeline. ACORN, (well, actually not), the company is a subsidiary of somebody else. > > Local impact? There are a number of feeder gas lines running along the edge of farms around here, according to road signs in any case. The impact on the local farms seem minimal at best. The size and pressure is a bit different. Kinda like the different between a kazoo and a double air horn. > > And what is the path of the proposed pipeline? Down I 5 makes sense, but through this area makes no sense. The "makes sense" argument doesn't apply to the planners. They even have it going through various locations that are unstable soil subject to landslides. > > Anyway, hope we can learn more. Don't put it off too long, the meeting is tomorrow. > > Don David From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 06:36:34 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:36:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115884@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCC9F56.3030300@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCDADE2.7030107@gmail.com> As a recovering heart attack patient myself (May 2009) I too would be willing to help in working on this project. Count me in! Adam Mayer Bob Browning wrote: > Damn straight; a perfect example of why we ought to do this ! ! ! ! > > bob "hold my heart, will you" browning > > PS: One of the sad things is that Tuality does not give out email > addresses for their people. Otherwise Dick Stenson would also have > been cc'd. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/19/2010 11:16 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: >> Bob...count me in. As you know, I had a heart attack last October...the attending heart specialist's report clearly shows that a defibrillator helped save my life...he lost track of how many times he used it on me...5 or 6 times within an hour. When I took the handball team to the Houston Y in February, several of the players took the time to point out the AEDs around the building-just in case. >> >> --Mike >> >> ________________________________ >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:08 AM >> To: Grovenet; Michael Sykes; Pete Truax; John Schrag; Chamber Director; Pastor Jennifer Yocum; Pete Van Dyke >> Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . >> >> The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when needed. Such a program would cost some tens of thousands of dollars (you can get an AED down to about $500 to $600 each with a big single purchase; we would likely need as many as 100 to 150 units), but the payoff to the community, both in terms of recognition for the effort and for the health of our citizens and customers would be priceless!! >> >> I would be willing to head up the effort if there is any interest from the local service clubs, city hall, the Chamber, and the various churches. It would also appear that the fire department would be a good group to monitor the effort at the same time as they check on fire extinguishers. >> >> What a great project this could be, and it could really give FG a boost as the place to live and work - "We care about you!!". >> >> bob "who knows; with my heart I may need it someday" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 07:51:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:51:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <58900DA6-652F-49A3-A5C8-8218AB98FDBE@teleport.com> That would indeed be poetic justice-- that undergound nuclear facilities should become buried nuclear facilities. However, Iran's nuclear engineers being able to successfully separate the science portion of their brains from the religious part, I assume they have sited their works well away from any known earthquake faults. In other words-- if it happens, it ain't their fault! WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 10:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > T in C, I believe Mahmoud caused the quake by digging too deep into > fault > lines to hide his nuclear facilities. > > I would observe that higher being justice should visit his underground > facilities with fatal results. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Kristy Gravlin > Date: 4/19/2010 5:12:45 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is this guy an R ? ? ? > > Of course not...it will be the fault of those floosies with their hair > peeking out of their scarves. KG > > > On 4/19/10 6:45 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: > >> And yet, if after sincere repentance and endless prayer, the quake >> hits anyway... will the faith of the survivors be affected? Not in >> the slightest, I suspect. >> WW > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 09:06:47 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:06:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group Message-ID: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/a6357a57/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-10.png Type: image/png Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/a6357a57/attachment.png From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 09:36:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:36:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Eminent Domain as law References: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> <58900DA6-652F-49A3-A5C8-8218AB98FDBE@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCDD7EF.000011.02432@DON-B2514E06367> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain#History Our fine subscribers asked whether or not taking land to put in a gas line to California would be an act of socialism. It seems under the law, and by the bill of rights, and by amendment to our constitution, the taking of land by a government for public benefit is permitted, but if taken by a government for corporate benefit, else private benefit, the act is not permitted. So it seems the question crashes on defining who benefits. Who benefited when the railroad was extended to Forest Grove? Who benefited when the road to Hillsboro was widened? Who benefited when the USA sewer line was put in? Who benefits most when a city takes private land to build a shopping center? Were the owners of the affected land justly compensated under the law? If a pipeline under their land did not affect their use of the land, were they injured under the law? If they received half of what their land was worth, is that just compensation? In early times steam boats plied the Tualatin river to Forest grove. Land owners along the river owned the land to the center of the river. Were they justly compensated by the steamboat company for limited use of their land, or was their compensation their ability to more rapidly get their produce to market? Did the public benefit at the expense of the farmer? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/8ae4aefc/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 09:51:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:51:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Humor Message-ID: <4BCDDB83.00001A.02432@DON-B2514E06367> Do they require a cattle guard shack? Cattle guards are, of course, horizontal steel rails placed at fence openings, in dug-out places in the roads adjacent to highways (sometimes across highways), to prevent cattle from crossing. For some reason the cattle will not step on the guards, probably because they fear getting their feet caught between the rails. A few months ago, President Obama received a report that there were over 100 000 cattle guards in Colorado. Because Colorado ranchers had protested his proposed changes in grazing policies, he ordered the Secretary of the Interior to fire half of the guards immediately. Before the Interior Secretary could respond and presumably straighten him out, Vice-President, Joe Biden intervened with a request that before any guards were fired, they be given six months of retraining. Is this a joke? Brace yourself. Next bubble to burst could be $600 trillion As interest rates begin to rise worldwide, losses in derivatives may end up bankrupting a wide range of institutions, including municipalities, state governments, major insurance companies, top investment houses, commercial banks and universities. Find out the latest right now at WND.com. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/834b0fdb/attachment.gif From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 10:07:00 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Wow; thanks for sharing this article, Bob. Once again, as in other times in history, I believe that we are watching religious right factions dangerously swinging the pendulum in their direction. And, of course, their dangerous influence is supported by members of our Supreme Court. Pretty darned scary. Will the safeguards of our Constitution that separate church from state and that prevent discrimination be strong enough to limit the innate divisiveness and rise to power of the extreme Christian right? Will the extreme Christian right finally go too far and force a backlash that emanates from those of us who are disgusted and frightened by their efforts (including those from within their own ranks) as their divisive tactics become bolder and more dangerous? I believe that our nation, as a whole, is going through a period of deeply embedded apathy due to many factors. I also believe that this national apathy is our biggest roadblock that prevents citizens from waking up and saying, "No more! This is wrong!" Because this apathy is so strong, it seems to me that there will be no way out unless the extreme Christian right goes far enough and fast enough that those who oppose them will finally swing the pendulum back toward the middle. What do you think? Holly ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 9:06:47 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group Here's why the appointment of the next Supreme Court Justice is so important that even if all other work of the Senate is stopped, the Ds must not let another activist conservative onto the Court. Balance is so needed and the activism of Scalia must be reined in!! bob "I calls 'em like I sees 'em" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group Tony Mauro 04-20-2010 The U.S. Supreme Court heard oral arguments Monday in a key church-state dispute over the status of a Christian group at a state university law school. But the discussion quickly devolved into a testy debate over the factual record in the case and what it was all about. "What is the case that we have here?" Justice Anthony Kennedy asked early in the hourlong argument. His is a crucial and unpredictable vote in the case, Christian Legal Society v. Martinez. Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. bared his temper in exchanges with former Solicitor General Gregory Garre, who counts Roberts as his mentor from the days when both worked at Hogan & Hartson. Garre, now chairman of the appellate practice at Latham & Watkins, held his ground as he defended the University of California Hastings College of the Law's handling of the Christian group. The San Francisco law school denied official recognition to the society because of its bylaws, which require members and leaders to adhere to its religious views and bars membership those who advocate or participate in homosexual conduct. Those requirements, the university argued, violate the university's nondiscrimination policy, which says recognized student organizations must admit any student regardless of their "status or beliefs." But in the briefing of the case, the parties squabbled over the breadth of the university policy -- was it an "all comers" policy that would also require a Republican club to admit Democrats, or does it have the effect of singling out religious groups as the only ones that may not exclude nonadherents? The answer is important, because an all-comers policy might have a better chance of being upheld as a viewpoint-neutral rule that is evenly applied to all groups, not just religious ones. Stanford Law School professor Michael McConnell, who represented the Christian group, argued strenuously that either version of the policy is unconstitutional, but justices showered him with questions that left him unable to elaborate. One of the few assertions McConnell was able to make was that either policy is a "frontal assault on the freedom of association. Freedom of association is the right to form around shared beliefs." Garre was also often on the defensive as he tried to convince the justices that the "all-comers" policy was in effect now and is the only version for the Court to decide on. Noting that similar nondiscrimination policies are in effect at Georgetown University Law Center and Columbia Law School, Garre called it "not uncommon and a reasonable policy. We're not saying it's the only approach that colleges can take." When justices cited the Christian group's different view about the policy, Garre said, "they shouldn't have stipulated" to the "all comers" interpretation. The questioning became so intense that, at one point, Justice Antonin Scalia and Roberts both were waiting for answers from Garre. When he started to answer Scalia's, Roberts ordered, "No, start with mine." Later on, when Garre reiterated that "all parties agree that the current policy is the all-comers policy," Roberts interjected angrily, "No, I'm sorry. All parties do not agree that the policy is the all-comers policy." Scalia was clearly the justice most opposed to the Hastings policy. He told Garre, "it is so weird to require the campus Republican Club to admit Democrats, not just to membership, but to officership; to require this Christian society to allow atheists not just to join, but to conduct Bible classes, right? That's crazy." Justice Samuel Alito Jr. also took a swipe at the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which had upheld the Hastings policy in a two-sentence opinion. "Do you think this case deserved a two-sentence decision in the 9th Circuit?" Alito asked Garre. "This case, which has produced hundreds and hundreds of pages of amicus briefs, deserved two sentences in the court of appeals?" Garre, whose task was to defend the 9th Circuit, said yes, because the circuit had recently ruled on a similar case, which controlled the outcome of the Hastings case. Copyright 2010. ALM Media Properties, LLC. All rights reserved. From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 10:10:59 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade In-Reply-To: References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <253208.98172.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Opportunity to Show Troops Community Support: The Army National Guard is organizing a WELCOME HOME and Demobilization Ceremony for the 2-218th Field Artillery Unit for Thursday, April 22. The unit based at the Forest Grove Armory has been deployed on duty in Iraq. The National Guard would like the parade route through Forest Grove leading up to the High School filled with people, banners, flags, etc. The convoy of buses, military vehicles, and motorcycle escort is scheduled to arrive in Forest Grove at 11 AM. from Hwy 47 west on Pacific to north on B St PASS THE WORD and PLEASE consider joining in this opportunity to show local troops our community support! Beverly J. Maughan Executive Assistant to City Manager City of Forest Grove 503-992-3234 bmaughan at forestgrove-or.gov From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 10:17:13 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:17:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/cda9e0f9/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 10:18:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:18:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Eminent Domain as law In-Reply-To: <4BCDD7EF.000011.02432@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> <58900DA6-652F-49A3-A5C8-8218AB98FDBE@teleport.com> <4BCDD7EF.000011.02432@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: If the question comes down to the concrete benefits for local land owners, then clearly railroads, highways and steam navigation were of clear financial benefit to local interests, particularly where fair market value for use of their land was involved. Admittedly, most railroad barons were pirates, who could ram through legislation at the national level so as to pay as little as possible and derive as much in extortion as possible, letting various cities compete in bidding for an advantageous route; but still, railroads and highways advanced local civilization and improved the local quality of life. The proposed gas pipeline, however, will involve a route cutting through many miles of farmland, with a right-of-way on each side of it, will bring with it the danger of disastrous explosions such as took place in Washington in recent decades, and will provide no tangible benefit to Oregonians, aside from low-ball payments to affected landowners, who will fight the project tooth and nail. The gas terminal on the Columbia will offload tankers of supercooled liquid natural gas from overseas--provided American companies can outbid the Chinese for it. The gas will be shipped through the proposed pipeline the full length of Oregon to California-- where, no fools they, they do not want an LNG terminal on their coastline, due to the obvious risks of accident, sabotage or disastrous disruption of local commerce. No, they will be perfectly happy to let Oregonians assume those burdens, while they drive the benefits (if any) of a foreign natural gas supply (if forthcoming). WW On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain#History > > Our fine subscribers asked whether or not taking land to put in a > gas line > to California would be an act of socialism. > > It seems under the law, and by the bill of rights, and by amendment > to our > constitution, the taking of land by a government for public benefit is > permitted, but if taken by a government for corporate benefit, else > private > benefit, the act is not permitted. > > So it seems the question crashes on defining who benefits. > > Who benefited when the railroad was extended to Forest Grove? > > Who benefited when the road to Hillsboro was widened? > > Who benefited when the USA sewer line was put in? > > Who benefits most when a city takes private land to build a > shopping center? > > Were the owners of the affected land justly compensated under the law? > > If a pipeline under their land did not affect their use of the > land, were > they injured under the law? > > If they received half of what their land was worth, is that just > compensation? > > In early times steam boats plied the Tualatin river to Forest > grove. Land > owners along the river owned the land to the center of the river. > > Were they justly compensated by the steamboat company for limited > use of > their land, or was their compensation their ability to more rapidly > get > their produce to market? > > Did the public benefit at the expense of the farmer? > > Don__________________________________________ > _____ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 10:21:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:21:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts References: <1ad201cae02b$7438b750$5caa25f0$@com> <4BCD28EF.000015.04040@DON-B2514E06367> <003c01cae054$408cbb80$c1a63280$@com> Message-ID: <4BCDE28C.00002A.02432@DON-B2514E06367> Yeah, selling books seems to be one of the big things now; a short track to riches? PS: Careful, I think we know the dinos died long before the biblical flood. How they died is extensively discussed among so called experts; volcanic action, huge meteors, starvation, frozen, overheated, etc. Ad fanitum, but none about floods.......though we assume that many did die in floods Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/19/2010 11:39:55 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Just got another one, this time with real numbers. > > Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America By > Unknown Financial Coup d'Etat - Divide & Conquer > > Obama always deceptively frames the bailout discussion in relation > to the $700 Billion TARP program. He, along with the mainstream > media, always seems to Gloss over the fact that the bailout is > much more than just the TARP program. TARP is a mere 2% of this > multifaceted scam. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< A 35 Trillion dollar scam, eh? The sheer magnitude of that number makes the above hypothesis as believable as the dinosaurs having gone extinct with the great biblical flood. I can google with the best of them. http://ampedstatus.com/part-iv-the-financial-coup-detat-the-economic-elite-v s-the-people-of-the-united-states-of-america Did anybody bother to let the cat out of the bag that the TARP program was Bush-era legislation? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > His proposal of a tax on Wall Street firms to get some of our tax > money back is Estimated to bring in $90 billion over the next ten > years. That works out to $9 Billion a year, compare that to the > $150 billion in bonuses handed out by these Same firms. just in > the past year! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Actually, the bonuses are closer to $200 billion, by some estimations. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/01/tax-break-bonus/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The Real size of the bailout is estimated to be $14 trillion, which > works out to be $46,662 for every man, woman and child in America. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Does the original author of the article account at all for the money the banks have paid back towards their TARP allocations? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704869304574595600479204352.ht ml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program#Participants http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63B05N20100412 I'm not pretending to understand everything David DeGraw says in his articles. However, something doesn't sit right with me after only an hour or so of research. I smell the need to sell a book possibly tainting the enthusiasm with which he delivers his theories. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/9d07797f/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 10:37:19 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:37:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Eminent Domain as law In-Reply-To: <4BCDD7EF.000011.02432@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCD3FAC.000025.04040@DON-B2514E06367> <58900DA6-652F-49A3-A5C8-8218AB98FDBE@teleport.com> <4BCDD7EF.000011.02432@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don, You might want to scroll down in that wiki entry to the Kelo vs City of New London case to study the reality of whether the supreme court will allow takings from one private owner to give to another private owner. The answer now is yes it is. It made all the news channels at the time and is still brought up with some regularity. Katie On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain#History > > > > Our fine subscribers asked whether or not taking land to put in a > gas line > to California would be an act of socialism. > > > > It seems under the law, and by the bill of rights, and by amendment > to our > constitution, the taking of land by a government for public benefit is > permitted, but if taken by a government for corporate benefit, else > private > benefit, the act is not permitted. > > > > So it seems the question crashes on defining who benefits. > > > > Who benefited when the railroad was extended to Forest Grove? > > > > Who benefited when the road to Hillsboro was widened? > > > > Who benefited when the USA sewer line was put in? > > > > Who benefits most when a city takes private land to build a > shopping center? > > > > Were the owners of the affected land justly compensated under the law? > > > > If a pipeline under their land did not affect their use of the > land, were > they injured under the law? > > > > If they received half of what their land was worth, is that just > compensation? > > > > In early times steam boats plied the Tualatin river to Forest > grove. Land > owners along the river owned the land to the center of the river. > > > > Were they justly compensated by the steamboat company for limited > use of > their land, or was their compensation their ability to more rapidly > get > their produce to market? > > > > Did the public benefit at the expense of the farmer? > > > > Don > > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 11:27:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:27:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Gas Pipeline References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <3B9B69AF-FF81-41CE-837C-016B9D4B8C09@verizon.net> <2E0855C8FBCB45229BB577F33CBF7422@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BCDF210.00003C.02432@DON-B2514E06367> There appears to be a bunch of plans like this across the nation. Again, what are they to us locally, and who benefits. The Argus seems to know a lot: FERC approves Bradwood, with conditions By Nick Christensen, The Hillsboro Argus September 18, 2008, 9:39AM A proposed liquefied natural gas terminal, which could eventually ship compressed -- but not liquefied -- gas through western Washington County, was approved 4-1 Thursday by the federal board that vets such projects. The Bradwood Landing terminal is the first proposed West Coast LNG terminal to be approved by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and is also the first in a slew of proposals for LNG terminals and CNG pipelines that FERC must review before they can move forward. The commission granted approval to the project contingent on implementation of 109 safety and security measures. Construction on the project, which would receive as much as 1.3 billion cubic feet of natural gas each day, could begin by this time next year. "Bradwood Landing can help meet the projected energy needs of the Pacific Northwest in a safe, secure manner with limited adverse environmental impacts," said FERC Chairman Joseph T. Kelliher. "It also provides the United States with direct access to the LNG markets in the Pacific region." Si Garrett, CEO of Bradwood's developer, NorthernStar Natural Gas, said his company will continue to work to get the state approvals needed for the project. "This is a significant milestone for Bradwood Landing and makes it the project best positioned to help the Pacific Northwest meet their future natural gas needs," Garrett said in a release. So why are we just now learning about these plans for us? Don PS: Good advice David on reliable data acquisition. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/0ad90a3b/attachment.gif From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 12:21:39 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:17:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group > PS: Despite what Roberts, Scalia, and their ilk attempted to assert, the Hastings School of Law does not prevent anyone from associating with whom they wish; they just don't give state and federal funds to those who discriminate against certain protected classes!! Yeah, well, the extreme Christian right has a long history of throwing up such intentionally confusing smokescreens--intentionally confusing smokescreens that are riddled with forebodings that feed paranoia, prejudice, and some of humankind's darkest cruelties. It's a history that goes back centuries and centuries before the Salem Witch Trials. Holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, slavery, pogroms, etc. have all been justified, fed, and even sometimes initiated by some of the world's cruelest and most powerful campaigns led by the extreme Christian right. Why would a god or goddess of such followers want them to perpetuate such hate, divisiveness, and disharmony? How much simpler and more harmonious it would be if we could only find ways to put an end to discrimination of all kinds, and do a far better job of ensuring that we have strong separation between church and state. Our nation's forefathers were spot on. Why don't do a far better job of remembering the wisdom they passed down to us in our Constitution? Is it because, as a nation, we pay more attention to "reality TV", sitcoms, and sports programming than most of us ever have to American and world history? Holly From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 13:16:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:16:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> Gut check. Substitute any other historical idiology in place of the word Christian, and the results are samo, samo. None of those groups by current standards are clean. Even the worst do not stand to the most blood thirsty of current idiologies. Don -------Original Message------- From: Holly T. Date: 4/20/2010 12:22:01 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:17:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group > PS: Despite what Roberts, Scalia, and their ilk attempted to assert, the Hastings School of Law does not prevent anyone from associating with whom they wish; they just don't give state and federal funds to those who discriminate against certain protected classes!! Yeah, well, the extreme Christian right has a long history of throwing up such intentionally confusing smokescreens--intentionally confusing smokescreens that are riddled with forebodings that feed paranoia, prejudice and some of humankind's darkest cruelties. It's a history that goes back centuries and centuries before the Salem Witch Trials. Holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, slavery, pogroms etc. have all been justified, fed, and even sometimes initiated by some of the world's cruelest and most powerful campaigns led by the extreme Christian right. Why would a god or goddess of such followers want them to perpetuate such hate, divisiveness, and disharmony? How much simpler and more harmonious it would be if we could only find ways to put an end to discrimination of all kinds, and do a far better job of ensuring that we have strong separation between church and state. Our nation s forefathers were spot on. Why don't do a far better job of remembering the wisdom they passed down to us in our Constitution? Is it because, as a nation, we pay more attention to "reality TV", sitcoms, and sports programming than most of us ever have to American and world history? Holly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/2f4009c2/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 13:33:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:33:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <253208.98172.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> As a former member of the National Guard, I say Whooo Ahhhh. An old soldier will be there to welcome young soldiers home. Don -------Original Message------- From: Vickie Madeoneup Date: 4/20/2010 10:11:17 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade Opportunity to Show Troops Community Support: The Army National Guard is organizing a WELCOME HOME and Demobilization Ceremony for the 2-218th Field Artillery Unit for Thursday, April 22. The unit based at the Forest Grove Armory has been deployed on duty in Iraq. The National Guard would like the parade route through Forest Grove leading up to the High School filled with people, banners, flags, etc. The convoy of buses, military vehicles, and motorcycle escort is scheduled to arrive in Forest Grove at 11 AM. from Hwy 47 west on Pacific to north on B St PASS THE WORD and PLEASE consider joining in this opportunity to show local troops our community support! Beverly J. Maughan Executive Assistant to City Manager City of Forest Grove 503-992-3234 bmaughan at forestgrove-or.gov _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/65285f74/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 13:38:50 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:38:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting story from that socialist rag "Scientific American" Message-ID: <4BCE10DA.80501@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/78623754/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3861 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/78623754/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 20 13:51:24 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:51:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade In-Reply-To: <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <253208.98172.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <010101cae0cb$3e1818f0$ba484ad0$@com> > From: donkelly > > As a former member of the National Guard, I say Whooo Ahhhh. Whooo Ahhh indeed, from another former member of the NG. > An old soldier will be there to welcome young soldiers home. A not so old soldier will make his best effort to be there despite working obligations. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 13:56:51 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:56:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade In-Reply-To: <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <253208.98172.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0342A1D4-BBD0-4CA6-86FE-180DFFFCE7B5@teleport.com> Yes! Let's help celebrate their getting home, alive and hopefully in good health. More importantly, let's help them get their feet back on the ground. Too much has been asked of them already, without the added burdens of a tight job market and financial insecurity. WW On Apr 20, 2010, at 1:33 PM, donkelly wrote: > As a former member of the National Guard, I say Whooo Ahhhh. > An old soldier will be there to welcome young soldiers home. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Vickie Madeoneup > Date: 4/20/2010 10:11:17 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade > > Opportunity to Show Troops Community Support: The Army National > Guard is > organizing a WELCOME HOME and Demobilization Ceremony for the > 2-218th Field > Artillery Unit for Thursday, April 22. The unit based at the > Forest Grove > Armory has been deployed on duty in Iraq. The National Guard would > like the > parade route through Forest Grove leading up to the High School > filled with > people, banners, flags, etc. The convoy of buses, military > vehicles, and > motorcycle escort is scheduled to arrive in Forest Grove at 11 AM. > from Hwy 47 west on Pacific to north on B St > PASS THE WORD and PLEASE consider joining in this opportunity to > show local > troops our community support! > > Beverly J. Maughan > > Executive Assistant to City Manager > > City of Forest Grove > > 503-992-3234 > > bmaughan at forestgrove-or.gov > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 14:03:44 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> We totally agree on that one, Don. Religious zealotry and fundamentalism, gone too far afield, no matter what the ideology, is generally dangerous. Period. Unless you're somebody like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. In all cases, religious zealotry depends hugely on the closed, unaware, uneducated, and/or cowardly eyes and ears of the apathetic masses. The Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the pograms in Poland and Russia, Nazi Germany, slavery in America, current inequalities related to minorities and women in America -- all these shameful horrors were and still continue to be enabled by the closed, unaware, uneducated, uninvolved, and/or cowardly eyes and ears of the apathetic masses. Not to mention "moral" teachings that have continued to flavor our beliefs -- whether we participate in organized religion or not -- ever since the Puritans first set foot on Plymouth Rock. However I will maintain that, in the past 2,000 years, a lion's share of the holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, slavery, and pogroms have been justified, fed, and even initiated by factions associated with the extreme Christian right. Show me an extremist group -- no matter what their ideology -- that has done more in this regard in the past 2,000 years and I will stand corrected. Don't get me wrong. I strongly believe that there are plenty of wonderful Christians out there who approach life from a foundation built on loving kindness toward others, and who are not divisive in their beliefs. I also believe that we all benefit from the positive energy and teachings of such people. If I were one of these Christians, I would be even more mortified than I am by what I see coming at us from the extreme Christian right. Holly ________________________________ From: donkelly To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 1:16:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group Gut check. Substitute any other historical idiology in place of the word Christian, and the results are samo, samo. None of those groups by current standards are clean. Even the worst do not stand to the most blood thirsty of current idiologies. Don -------Original Message------- From: Holly T. Date: 4/20/2010 12:22:01 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:17:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group > PS: Despite what Roberts, Scalia, and their ilk attempted to assert, the Hastings School of Law does not prevent anyone from associating with whom they wish; they just don't give state and federal funds to those who discriminate against certain protected classes!! Yeah, well, the extreme Christian right has a long history of throwing up such intentionally confusing smokescreens--intentionally confusing smokescreens that are riddled with forebodings that feed paranoia, prejudice and some of humankind's darkest cruelties. It's a history that goes back centuries and centuries before the Salem Witch Trials. Holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, slavery, pogroms etc. have all been justified, fed, and even sometimes initiated by some of the world's cruelest and most powerful campaigns led by the extreme Christian right. Why would a god or goddess of such followers want them to perpetuate such hate, divisiveness, and disharmony? How much simpler and more harmonious it would be if we could only find ways to put an end to discrimination of all kinds, and do a far better job of ensuring that we have strong separation between church and state. Our nation s forefathers were spot on. Why don't do a far better job of remembering the wisdom they passed down to us in our Constitution? Is it because, as a nation, we pay more attention to "reality TV", sitcoms, and sports programming than most of us ever have to American and world history? Holly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 14:09:47 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade In-Reply-To: <0342A1D4-BBD0-4CA6-86FE-180DFFFCE7B5@teleport.com> References: <6A9DEDA9-1BC6-4924-9FA0-C250C235E6D2@teleport.com> <253208.98172.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BCE0F78.000017.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <0342A1D4-BBD0-4CA6-86FE-180DFFFCE7B5@teleport.com> Message-ID: <683291.5458.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Here! Here! Let's bring 'em all home asap and bring on the jobs to boot. Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 1:56:51 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade Yes! Let's help celebrate their getting home, alive and hopefully in good health. More importantly, let's help them get their feet back on the ground. Too much has been asked of them already, without the added burdens of a tight job market and financial insecurity. WW On Apr 20, 2010, at 1:33 PM, donkelly wrote: > As a former member of the National Guard, I say Whooo Ahhhh. > An old soldier will be there to welcome young soldiers home. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Vickie Madeoneup > Date: 4/20/2010 10:11:17 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Welcome our troops community parade > > Opportunity to Show Troops Community Support: The Army National > Guard is > organizing a WELCOME HOME and Demobilization Ceremony for the > 2-218th Field > Artillery Unit for Thursday, April 22. The unit based at the > Forest Grove > Armory has been deployed on duty in Iraq. The National Guard would > like the > parade route through Forest Grove leading up to the High School > filled with > people, banners, flags, etc. The convoy of buses, military > vehicles, and > motorcycle escort is scheduled to arrive in Forest Grove at 11 AM. > from Hwy 47 west on Pacific to north on B St > PASS THE WORD and PLEASE consider joining in this opportunity to > show local > troops our community support! > > Beverly J. Maughan > > Executive Assistant to City Manager > > City of Forest Grove > > 503-992-3234 > > bmaughan at forestgrove-or.gov > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 14:24:35 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:24:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Hi, Bob, Every two years when I renew my Basic Life Support for Health Care Practitioners I always inquire about the cost of AEDs. Unfortunately, as a small business owner, I have lots of other things that I would like to do with $1,500. You might check with the local health care practitioners for other people who would be interested in your group buy. Jane B-P On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic > External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are > having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, > the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school > district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and > checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when > needed. Such a program would cost some tens of thousands of dollars (you can > get an AED down to about $500 to $600 each with a big single purchase; we > would likely need as many as 100 to 150 units), but the payoff to the > community, both in terms of recognition for the effort and for the health of > our citizens and customers would be priceless!! > > I would be willing to head up the effort if there is any interest from the > local service clubs, city hall, the Chamber, and the various churches. It > would also appear that the fire department would be a good group to monitor > the effort at the same time as they check on fire extinguishers. > > What a great project this could be, and it could really give FG a boost as > the place to live and work - "We care about you!!". > > bob "who knows; with my heart I may need it someday" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > [image: tho] > > AED use doubles cardiac-arrest survival April 16, 2010 | Shelley Wood > > *Washington, DC* - Beefed up with the inclusion of more than 3000 patients > over an additional five months of follow-up, published results from the * > Resus**c**itation Outcomes Consortium* (ROC)?first presented at the 2007 * > AHA* meeting?clearly show that automated external defibrillators (AEDs) > can improve survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, even when > untrained laypersons are the ones applying the life-saving device [*1* > ]. > > "Application of an AED in communities is associated with nearly a doubling > of survival after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest," the authors, led by *Dr > Myron L Weisfeldt* (Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, > Baltimore, MD), report in the April 20, 2010 issue of the *Journal of the > American College of Cardiology*. "These results reinforce the importance > of strategically expanding community-based AED programs." > > As previously reported by *heart**wire*, the earlier glimpseat the study results, covering 12 months, suggested that out of 10 663 > people who suffered an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, those who had AEDs > applied had an unadjusted two- to threefold higher likelihood of surviving > than if they had cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), but no AED was used. > > Now, in the published study, Weisfeldt et al report results for 13 769 > out-of-hospital cardiac arrests from seven locations across the US and three > in Canada. Of those, one-third (4403) received CPR from a bystander but had > no AED applied before emergency services arrived, while just 2.1% (289 > subjects) had an AED applied. > > Just 7% of patients who received CPR survived to hospital discharge, as > compared with 24% of patients who had the AED applied. The proportion of > survivors increased to 38% if an AED was applied and a shock was delivered. > > Weisfeldt and colleagues also controlled for a wide range of potential > confounders, including age, location of arrest, delay to emergency response, > and whether the arrest was witnessed, among other factors. Even taking all > these things into account, they concluded, use of an AED increased survival > by 75% (odds ratio 1.75; 95% CI 1.23-2.50). > > "Extrapolating this greater survival from the ROC [emergency medical > services] EMS population base (21 million) to the population of US and > Canada (330 million), AED application by bystanders seems to save 474 lives > per year," the authors conclude. > > Of note, nonmedical "lay volunteers" constituted the largest group of > people applying the AEDs (35%), followed by healthcare workers (32%) and > police officers (26%). Moreover, survivors among those who had had an AED > applied were more likely to have collapsed in public, rather than at home or > in another private setting. While public-placement strategies for AEDs > clearly have an "established role," it's also worth studying ways of > optimizing "private AED deployment," they conclude. > *Source* > > 1. Weisfeldt ML, Sitlani CM, Ornato JP, et al. Survival after > application of automatic external defibrillators before arrival of the > emergency medical system: Evaluation in the Resuscitation Outcomes > Consortium population of 21 million. *J Am Coll Cardiol* 2010; > 55:1713-1720. > > > *Related links* > > - Automated external defibrillators save lives, as long as they're in > the right place > [*Arrhythmia/EP > Arrhythmia/EP*; Jul 27, 2009] > - Out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: Location is all > [*Arrhythmia/EP > Arrhythmia/EP*; Sep 23, 2008] > - AED use by bystanders improves survival after out-of-hospital > cardiac arrest > [*heartwire > Medscape Medical News*; Nov 06, 2007] > > > [image: tho] > Copyright ?1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3282 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/f33bf7c0/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3200 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/f33bf7c0/attachment-0001.jpe From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 20 14:32:16 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case OverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> > From: Holly T. > > We totally agree on that one, Don. Religious zealotry and > fundamentalism, gone too far afield, no matter what the > ideology, is generally dangerous. Period. Unless you're > somebody like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. It may not be too much of a stretch to add the Dalai Lama to that list. The reality is that we won't have many that "rise up" to that sort of standard though as there isn't any financial gain in it. > [...] If I were one of these Christians, I would be even > more mortified than I am by what I see coming at us > from the extreme Christian right. Oh, if I were too, I would be mortified as well. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 14:44:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:44:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting story from that socialist rag "ScientificAmerican" References: <4BCE10DA.80501@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCE2022.000012.00268@DON-B2514E06367> OK, editor politics aside, this is one wave of the future we can advantage wherever the sun shines. I was privileged to participate at the University of Alaska School of Engineering in building a 10' by 20' solar collector array that we floated on Lake Otis. I now forget what the KW output was, but improved collectors today would probably run a home. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/20/2010 1:39:16 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Interesting story from that socialist rag ScientificAmerican" CleanTechnica - April 20, 2010 Arizona's Largest Commercial Rooftop Solar System Will Clock in at a Whopping 2.4 Megawatts In a clear sign of things to come, the state of Arizona is set to host a gigantic 2.4 megawatt solar installation on the roof of a food warehouse packed with energy-gobbling refrigerated space. The property owner, Cowley Companies, Inc., is apparently looking to give itself a serious edge in terms of attracting and keeping tenants. The new solar installation will provide electricity about 25% cheaper than conventional rates, and it will enable tenants to identify their brand with the new sustainable future. The announcement comes on the heels of an ominous warning by the U.S. By: Tina Casey In a clear sign of things to come, the state of Arizona is set to host a gigantic 2.4 megawatt solar installation on the roof of a food warehouse packed with energy-gobbling refrigerated space. The property owner, Cowley Companies, Inc., is apparently looking to give itself a serious edge in terms of attracting and keeping tenants. The new solar installation will provide electricity about 25% cheaper than conventional rates, and it will enable tenants to identify their brand with the new sustainable future. The announcement comes on the heels of an ominous warning by the U.S. Department of Defense, which foresees a near-term squeeze on oil supplies that could jack up the cost of oil but would leave solar-reliant energy users like Cowley?s tenants sitting pretty. The announcement also closely follows the Massey coal mine disaster, which has finally pulled the curtain off the true cost of our continued reliance on coal. Climate change deniers are really whistling in the wind when it comes to the energy future of the United States. We are slowly but surely unhooking from the fossil fuel economy and hitching our wagon to a new future that explores heretofore untapped resources, and that means mining the solar power riches of rooftops from coast to coast. Empire Power Systems, Solar Power and Caterpillar The system installer is Empire Power Systems, which has been in the business of installing backup power for large buildings for about 60 years. Just a couple of years ago it launched a renewable energy division which makes sense because the company is a division of Empire Southwest, the authorized Caterpillar dealer for Arizona and other parts of the Southwest, and Caterpillar in turn is making a commitment to sustainability by leading in the development of hybrid electric off-road heavy duty vehicles. But I digress SunPower and Solar Power The new solar power installation will be constructed on an 850,000 square foot roof in Phoenix, covering about 6.5 acres. It will use the T5 Solar Roof Tile system developed by solar industry giant SunPower, which is an easy-installation system that comes complete with a solar panel, frame and mounting. The panels tilt at a five degree angle to improve efficiency over flat-set panels. Catching up to DESERTEC At 2.4 megawatts, the Phoenix installation is a blip on the screen compared to the massive international solar project DESERTEC, which envisions a network of solar power plants in the African desert to supply power to Europe. Well the U.S. has plenty of deserts, too, so if paid lobbyists like Freedomworks would just step aside and stop trying to get in the way of green-minded companies, we?ll have plenty of our own solar power ? and lots of new green jobs, to boot. Hey Freedomworks, what?s so wrong with creating jobs? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3861 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/750ec8ca/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/750ec8ca/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 14:55:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:55:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> Message-ID: <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> I think any group has a right to be mortified by other groups trying to deny them their rights. Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. And it isn't just Muslims in the fight, it is also politicians, government, Supreme Court, and petty judges here and there, the same people who are supposed to be defending our rights. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/20/2010 2:32:29 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOverChristian Law Student Group > From: Holly T. > > We totally agree on that one, Don. Religious zealotry and > fundamentalism, gone too far afield, no matter what the > ideology, is generally dangerous. Period. Unless you're > somebody like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. It may not be too much of a stretch to add the Dalai Lama to that list. The reality is that we won't have many that "rise up" to that sort of standard though as there isn't any financial gain in it. > [...] If I were one of these Christians, I would be even > more mortified than I am by what I see coming at us > from the extreme Christian right. Oh, if I were too, I would be mortified as well. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/08a76c71/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 20 15:02:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:02:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How a Lie Starts In-Reply-To: <4BCDE28C.00002A.02432@DON-B2514E06367> References: <1ad201cae02b$7438b750$5caa25f0$@com> <4BCD28EF.000015.04040@DON-B2514E06367> <003c01cae054$408cbb80$c1a63280$@com> <4BCDE28C.00002A.02432@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <014301cae0d5$21eac3d0$65c04b70$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Yeah, selling books seems to be one of the big things now; a short > track to riches? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Indeed, it seems so. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > PS: Careful, I think we know the dinos died long before the > biblical flood. > > How they died is extensively discussed among so called experts; > volcanic action, huge meteors, starvation, frozen, overheated, etc. > Ad fanitum, but none about floods.......though we assume that many > did die in floods ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I call shenanigans. Sarah Palin agrees with me too. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012. html And this Christian website agrees with me too. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible And this site, a wiki (meaning it can't possibly be wrong or require fact-checking) says so too. http://creationwiki.org/Dinosaur In fact, there's a museum devoted to this whole idea. http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/exhibits/ And, they're working with answeringgenesis.com, so they must be legit. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that the Smithsonian is just a big, secular government coverup of the truth, financed for centuries by hidden freemason riches. For too long the American public has been lulled into complacency by science, entranced by its "innovations" and "discoveries". It's time we stood up and, oh, hey, shiny thing! Maybe it's just the liberals that are pulling all these shenanigans and twisting the truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84er11W9rU4 How dare they vilify Fox News for their accurate reporting of the events that took place. They owe it to protect their candidate and future contributor. Oops, I mean the devil made Tina Fey do it! Jeff PS, This bit'o satire brought "sycophantly" to you by the letters "B" and "S". From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 20 15:04:40 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I think any group has a right to be mortified by other groups trying > to deny them their rights. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I agree in principle. It gets fuzzy when what some claim as rights actually infringe on others. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to > be and live as Christians. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Are they? How exactly? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And it isn't just Muslims in the fight, it is also politicians, > government, Supreme Court, and petty judges here and there, the > same people who are supposed to be defending our rights. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Care to elaborate (perhaps without copying-pasting from/links to god & country, wnd.com, etc.)? I'm more interested in *your* thoughts rather than something from another forum. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 15:05:41 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/26161e18/attachment.html From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 15:43:06 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Doesn't sound like I am a part of your plan. Jane B-P On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Ah, Jane, but my hope is that with bulk buying, some support from > Phillips, and some grants to help show what a small town can do to at least > meet the American Heart Association public access to defibrillation > guidelines, we can do 3 things: > > 1. Show what a smaller community can do to have a community based and > coordinated program of automated electronic defibrillation. > > 2. Help to make sure that the program is both supported and maintained over > time. > > 3. Help get the cost to the small business owner and to churches and other > non-profits down to a point where the community not only meets, but exceeds > the minimum AHA guidelines. > > Of course, the first step is ascertain whether there is community interest > in a coordinated program, or whether we just want to continue ad hoc, > hit-or-miss on where the machines are, some people are well trained and > others are not. If the latter, we are done. But, if the former, then there > is work to do: > > 1. Form a broad-based oversight committee accountable to some community > group that will have a continuing interest and track record. > > 2. Inventory the current placement of AEDs and the skill level(s) of those > responsible for them. > > 3. Etc., until the program is both up and running and has a continuing > emphasis and interest. > > I can even see a community health care component in our Comprehensive It > can be done, I am sure others are doing it (so we don't have to totally > reinvent the wheel), but it will take some work!! > > At this point I just want to see who, if anyone or any organization, is > interested in moving forward. > > bob "nothing more to it than that!!" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/20/2010 2:24 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > > Hi, Bob, > > Every two years when I renew my Basic Life Support for Health Care > Practitioners I always inquire about the cost of AEDs. Unfortunately, as a > small business owner, I have lots of other things that I would like to do > with $1,500. You might check with the local health care practitioners for > other people who would be interested in your group buy. > > Jane B-P > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > > > The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic > External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are > having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, > the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school > district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and > checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when > needed. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 16:08:41 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:08:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCE33F9.60906@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/cbcf5bee/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 16:06:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:06:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> OK Jeff, just a couple. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/20/2010 3:04:53 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I think any group has a right to be mortified by other groups trying > to deny them their rights. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I agree in principle. It gets fuzzy when what some claim as rights actually infringe on others. ========kinda like their rights end where your nose begins======= ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to > be and live as Christians. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Are they? How exactly? ======pray where they want, display crosses where they want, keep the ten commandments in the courts system, display nativity scenes in front of their house, etc.======== ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And it isn't just Muslims in the fight, it is also politicians, > government, Supreme Court, and petty judges here and there, the > same people who are supposed to be defending our rights. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Care to elaborate (perhaps without copying-pasting from/links to god & country, wnd.com, etc.)? ==========being forced to pay taxes to support abortions======= I'm more interested in *your* thoughts rather than something from another Forum. ========God N Country is run by a preacher, and subscribed to mostly by Christians. Some are more Christian than militant, and some or more militant than Christian, but all support small government and large freedom. They put their money where their mouth is, take a stand for liberty, and organize to make their stands noticed by the government, especially noticed by politicians in it solely for themselves, but up for election in November======== That should do it for now, but I'll end by asking you how you would stand up for America? Don Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/c9a9beb7/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 16:25:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:25:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCE37D3.000034.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Ah, don't look now, but Phillips now owns the ARCO facilities in Alaska. They are therefore (GASP) an oil company. However, the company also awards grants to finance worthy enterprises. Both UP and at the same DOWN, heh? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/20/2010 3:05:57 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Cc: Yvonne Curtis; Pastor Jennifer Yocum; Pete Truax; Michael Sykes; Pete Van Dyke; Chamber Director Subject: Re: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . Ah, Jane, but my hope is that with bulk buying, some support from Phillips, and some grants to help show what a small town can do to at least meet the American Heart Association public access to defibrillation guidelines, we can do 3 things: 1. Show what a smaller community can do to have a community based and coordinated program of automated electronic defibrillation. 2. Help to make sure that the program is both supported and maintained over time. 3. Help get the cost to the small business owner and to churches and other non-profits down to a point where the community not only meets, but exceeds the minimum AHA guidelines. Of course, the first step is ascertain whether there is community interest in a coordinated program, or whether we just want to continue ad hoc, hit-or-miss on where the machines are, some people are well trained and others are not. If the latter, we are done. But, if the former, then there is work to do: 1. Form a broad-based oversight committee accountable to some community group that will have a continuing interest and track record. 2. Inventory the current placement of AEDs and the skill level(s) of those responsible for them. 3. Etc., until the program is both up and running and has a continuing emphasis and interest. I can even see a community health care component in our Comprehensive It can be done, I am sure others are doing it (so we don't have to totally reinvent the wheel), but it will take some work!! At this point I just want to see who, if anyone or any organization, is interested in moving forward. bob "nothing more to it than that!!" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/20/2010 2:24 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: Hi, Bob, Every two years when I renew my Basic Life Support for Health Care Practitioners I always inquire about the cost of AEDs. Unfortunately, as a small business owner, I have lots of other things that I would like to do with $1,500. You might check with the local health care practitioners for other people who would be interested in your group buy. Jane B-P On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Bob Browning wrote: The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals who are having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, city hall, the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around the school district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, and checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were ready when needed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/7c01ae3c/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 16:27:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:27:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue Message-ID: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> -------Original Message------- From: Bob Velon Date: 4/20/2010 3:32:52 PM To: donkelly Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he have called the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: donkelly To: Bob Velon Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:21 PM Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue Yes it is. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Velon Date: 04/20/10 13:01:32 To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, Subject: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue THE HYPOCRISY OF THE OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE ISSUE By Lynn Stuter April 20, 2010 NewsWithViews.com More than one mother has quipped to the effect that to enroll a child in school, one must produce the child's birth certificate. More than one military person has lamented that they, too, must produce their birth certificate to enlist and on demand. The latest being LTC Lakin who was ordered to report for a second tour of duty in the Middle East; ordered to show up for duty with his birth certificate in hand. He refused to report, stating unequivocally that he has serious reservations that the individual, claiming to be his Commander-in-Chief, is legitimate to the office he holds. That individual is Barack Hussein Obama or AKA (also known as) for what appears to be a myriad of aliases including the surnames of Dunham, Obama and Soetoro and the given names of Barry, Barack and Barack Hussein. As one can imagine, the combinations are many. Interesting considering that when AKA applied for an Illinois law license, he claimed no aliases. Yet we know that AKA was adopted by his stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, and registered as Barry Soetoro, Indonesian citizen of Muslim faith at the Fransiskus Assisi Primary School in Jakarta, Indonesia on January 1, 1967. We also know that Barry Soetoro was listed as a dependent over the age of 18 "for the purposes of education" of Lolo Soetoro in the Soetoro divorce papers, raising the specter of his receiving financial aid as a foreign student to attend Occidental College. As with everything else about AKA, there has been no proof presented that 1) he was ever an American citizen, 2) that he was ever eligible to reclaim American citizenship, and 3) that he ever did reclaim American citizenship. Michelle Obama, in a speech given on August 26, 2008, during the Democratic National Convention in Denver, Colorado, stated his home country to be Kenya More recently, the transcript of the proceedings of the March 25, 2010 Kenyan parliamentary session alleges AKA was born in Kenya. It seems the only people who refuse to look at facts are those "stupid Americans"; more specifically, however, a cabal of power elite (including lamestream media personalities) bent on keeping Americans in the dark about AKA's origins. And, beyond all this, AKA has claimed he held dual citizenship at birth, making him ineligible to the office of president as dual citizenship does not equate to natural born, defined as having two American parents and born on American soil. One of the ploys used by Marxists like AKA is to disparage equality of opportunity and offer up, instead, equality of outcome. People shouldn't be judged on their ability but on their need: from each according to his ability to each according to his need. Under this mantra, no one should be allowed to make more, have more, do more than another; everyone should be equal in their passions, opinions and possessions under the mantra of the "common good" or community. Such also extends to their political rights under the Marxist ideal of "democracy." So, with all that in mind, how is it exactly that any parent, enrolling their child in school, must produce the child's birth certificate but AKA does not have to produce his actual birth certificate, issued at the time of his birth, in order to sit in the Oval Office and live in the White House? And how is it that LTC Lakin must arrive at his duty station, birth certificate in hand, but AKA does not have to produce his actual birth certificate, issued at the time of his birth, in order to sit in the Oval Office and live in the White House? Oh, but you say, he has produced his birth certificate? He has? You mean that computer generated, laser printed document with the revised date" of 2001 in the lower right corner? That document that, if produced by the Department of Health, Hawaii, was printed after the 2001 revised date? You mean that one? That's not a birth certificate or a reasonable facsimile of one. That is a Certification of Live Birth (COLB) that Department of Health, Hawaii, has refused to authenticate as having been issued by them. AKA's birth certificate, which he admits to having (so why the need for the COLB?), would have been issued at the time of his birth in 1961. The COLB, pictures of which have appeared on the internet, is proof of nothing. And those who have waved copies of it around, including Glenn Beck, Bill O Reilly and Ron Paul have shown their ignorance in so doing. Advertisement The pictures of that document, including the one that showed up on the L.A. Times website (waved about by Bill O'Reilly and referenced by Ron Paul) have all been altered or forged. In the day and age of digital files, digital cameras, and photoshop programs, that is easy to accomplish. Just ask "Ducky " the author of at least one of the forgeries that has turned up on line that has been claimed by the Obamanoids as "authentic." So, if we use AKA's standard of measure, that no one individual should be allowed to do what another is not, if LTC Lakin must show up at a new duty station, birth certificate in hand, then why is AKA being allowed to not show his? And, if every other individual's education records are open to public scrutiny, then why should AKA be allowed to keep his secret? And, if the government can authenticate that you really belong to your social security number, then why can't they authenticate that AKA's myriad of social security numbers (not a typo) are his? Do you sense there is something wrong with this picture? Join the millions of Americans, the numbers growing daily, who also see something wrong with this picture. And what is wrong with this picture goes far beyond what is revealed here. AKA calls those who would question his eligibility to the office of president "terrorists" and "racists", that they would dare question him; he having such a stellar record for truthfulness and all! Such a stellar record in fact, that an accurate accounting of all the lies he's told is not to be had. Suffice it to say that if his lips are moving, he's lying. And the lamestream media buffoons accommodate him, lick his boots, and put on display, for all to see, the hypocrisy of their now proud Marxist tradition in "journalistic" endeavor. I mean really; how dare those people, those commoners, those "terrorists" think they have the right to know that the man sitting in the Oval Office, occupying the White House, is the legitimate president and commander-in-chief. To boot, those who would dare question must be "racists"! Why? Because AKA erroneously claims to be "black". He's not, he's predominantly white with the other half predominantly Arabic of the slave trade variety. That is, if Barack Hussein Obama, the man listed on the COLB, is really his father. And we don't know that that's really the case either; we just haven't seen anything that points definitively to the other two suspects ? Malcolm X and Frank Marshall Davis ? being the more likely sperm donor. The refusal of AKA to produce his birth certificate, the one he found amongst papers in his grandparents home in Hawaii while living with them, is not going to go away. Nor is the fact that he is not the legitimate president of the United States And while the lamestream media may champion AKA's cause, the truth is going to come out. The American people are not going to be denied, nor should they be denied. Every elected or appointed official, who has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, to protect and defend it from all enemies, foreign and domestic, who has refused to address this matter, is complicit in the crimes committed by AKA against the American people. Those who would scoff at, those who would make fun of, those who would denigrate people demanding to see AKA's actual birth certificate are their own worst enemy; for if the Constitution and Bill of Rights are irrelevant, then so is their freedom. And, under AKA's own terms, if he should not have to show his birth certificate, then neither should anyone else. The next time some government official demands to see your birth certificate, tell them you want to see AKA's first. Try it and see what happens! Subscribe to the NewsWithViews Daily News Alerts! Enter Your E-Mail Address: Oh, the hypocrisy of true democracy! James Madison wasn't so stupid, after all: "Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of Government, have erroneously supposed, that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions." Dear Barack, "Either produce your birth certificate or be known, forever, for the hypocrite you are!" ? 2010 Lynn M. Stuter - All Rights Reserved E-mail This Page Sign Up For Free E-Mail Alerts Activist and researcher, Stuter has spent the last fifteen years researching systems theory and systems philosophy with a particular emphasis on education as it pertains to achieving the sustainable global environment. She home schooled two daughters. She has worked with legislators, both state and federal, on issues pertaining to systems governance, the sustainable global environment and education reform. She networks nationwide with other researchers and a growing body of citizens concerned about the transformation of our nation from a Constitutional Republic to a participatory democracy. She has traveled the United States and lived overseas. Web site: www.learn-usa.com E-Mail: lmstuter at learn-usa.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2823 - Release Date: 04/20/10 05:45:00 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/7bc8477a/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 16:38:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:38:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7E97127B-F307-477F-A296-B92722DA21EC@teleport.com> Got no objection to Christians "being and living" as Christians, except when their being and living infringes upon how others be and live. For instance, can Christians insist upon the right to let their kids die of treatable diseases? Should they be allowed to force through laws imposing their own beliefs or prejudices upon the general public -- e.g. forbidding gay marriage, abortion, assisted dying, etc.? On Apr 20, 2010, at 2:55 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think any group has a right to be mortified by other groups > trying to deny > them their rights. > > Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to > be and > live as Christians. > > And it isn't just Muslims in the fight, it is also politicians, > government, > Supreme Court, and petty judges here and there, the same people who > are > supposed to be defending our rights. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/20/2010 2:32:29 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in > CaseOverChristian Law Student Group > >> From: Holly T. >> >> We totally agree on that one, Don. Religious zealotry and >> fundamentalism, gone too far afield, no matter what the >> ideology, is generally dangerous. Period. Unless you're >> somebody like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. > > It may not be too much of a stretch to add the Dalai Lama to that > list. > > The reality is that we won't have many that "rise up" to that sort of > standard though as there isn't any financial gain in it. > >> [...] If I were one of these Christians, I would be even >> more mortified than I am by what I see coming at us >> from the extreme Christian right. > > Oh, if I were too, I would be mortified as well. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 16:42:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:42:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <6C9F80A7-5536-4070-B0EA-74B870CD1AB3@teleport.com> Too bad this didn't get going in time to meet the deadline for CEP grants. But there's always next year for that. Meantime, the City Council will have a meeting on Thursday evening, the 22nd, to consider applications, and maybe they will accept a presentation if you apply for a time slot. Worth a try. On Apr 20, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Ah, Jane, but my hope is that with bulk buying, some support from > Phillips, and some grants to help show what a small town can do to > at least meet the American Heart Association public access to > defibrillation guidelines, we can do 3 things: > > 1. Show what a smaller community can do to have a community based > and coordinated program of automated electronic defibrillation. > > 2. Help to make sure that the program is both supported and > maintained over time. > > 3. Help get the cost to the small business owner and to churches > and other non-profits down to a point where the community not only > meets, but exceeds the minimum AHA guidelines. > > Of course, the first step is ascertain whether there is community > interest in a coordinated program, or whether we just want to > continue ad hoc, hit-or-miss on where the machines are, some people > are well trained and others are not. If the latter, we are done. > But, if the former, then there is work to do: > > 1. Form a broad-based oversight committee accountable to some > community group that will have a continuing interest and track record. > > 2. Inventory the current placement of AEDs and the skill level(s) > of those responsible for them. > > 3. Etc., until the program is both up and running and has a > continuing emphasis and interest. > > I can even see a community health care component in our > Comprehensive It can be done, I am sure others are doing it (so we > don't have to totally reinvent the wheel), but it will take some > work!! > > At this point I just want to see who, if anyone or any > organization, is interested in moving forward. > > bob "nothing more to it than that!!" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 4/20/2010 2:24 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >> >> Hi, Bob, >> >> Every two years when I renew my Basic Life Support for Health Care >> Practitioners I always inquire about the cost of AEDs. >> Unfortunately, as a >> small business owner, I have lots of other things that I would >> like to do >> with $1,500. You might check with the local health care >> practitioners for >> other people who would be interested in your group buy. >> >> Jane B-P >> >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Bob Browning >> wrote: >> >>> The following article reports on the success of AEDs (an "Automatic >>> External Defibrillator") in helping to resuscitate individuals >>> who are >>> having a heart attack. What a community project if every church, >>> city hall, >>> the chamber office, a number of locations at Pacific U., around >>> the school >>> district, and a select number of businesses around town had AEDs, >>> and >>> checked and trained with them regularly to be sure they were >>> ready when >>> needed. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Apr 20 16:44:37 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:44:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > > I agree in principle. It gets fuzzy when what some claim as > > rights actually infringe on others. > > kinda like their rights end where your nose begins ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's the basic gist of it, yes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights > > > to be and live as Christians. > > > > Are they? How exactly? > > pray where they want, display crosses where they want, keep the > ten commandments in the courts system, display nativity scenes > in front of their house, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm not aware of anything barring a christian from paying where they wish, including in public schools. A christian's right to pray is protected by the second amendment, remember? Where have christians lost or are losing the right to display crosses where they want? If it's in places like public schools by a christian teacher, then I think we have a pretty clear case of an issue with, wait for it, the second amendment, again. With some quick research I see issues of nativity scenes both involving personal property and public property. Due to the second amendment, I can see why they'd not be allowed on public property. However, though I find the nativity scenes to personally be tacky and distasteful, I take issue with people not being permitted to display them on their own property. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > being forced to pay taxes to support abortions ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< How? Where? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I'm more interested in *your* thoughts rather than something from > > another Forum. > > God N Country is run by a preacher, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Which almost instantly makes it suspect, in my opinion. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > That should do it for now, but I'll end by asking you how you would > stand up for America? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Not that I mind the questions, but why does it matter how I'd stand up for America? First, it's not really what we're discussing here, but second, in some sense, isn't that a private matter? Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 20 16:47:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:47:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue In-Reply-To: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Hay-Zeus! Mother=American. Case closed! Let it rest, for Gawdsake! From nuzriter at aol.com Tue Apr 20 16:55:58 2010 From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:55:58 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] old computer for the asking Message-ID: <8CCAEFC284AC56C-1980-184F8@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com> I have a computer that Chuck Woodchuck built for me about four years ago. I have since obtained a laptop and don't need my desktop computer. It still works wonderfully but obviously not as good/fast as newer models. If anyone wants it (small unit like a shoebox, keyboard and newer monitor), let me know directly. It would be fine for a young student and it's free. I need to get rid of it NOW. Linda Saari From mark at groveweb.net Tue Apr 20 17:32:36 2010 From: mark at groveweb.net (Mark Nakajima) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:32:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: References: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <003801cae0ea$2485ad70$6d910850$@net> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=1271719920024375 00 Mark Nakajima From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Apr 20 17:35:49 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:35:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: "Mark Nakajima" 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:32:36 -0700 Message-ID: <5232-4BCE4865-9102@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mark... it's about time you came out of the wood work, and make yourself known again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/b522b021/attachment.html From mark at groveweb.net Tue Apr 20 17:38:03 2010 From: mark at groveweb.net (Mark Nakajima) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:38:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard Message-ID: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> Let's try this one: Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=1271719920024375 00 Mark Nakajima From mark at groveweb.net Tue Apr 20 17:40:39 2010 From: mark at groveweb.net (Mark Nakajima) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> References: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> Message-ID: <005501cae0eb$43dc06f0$cb9414d0$@net> I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I am having problems opening the link in the email. Here's the story: "Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming Ceremony at high school to welcome 220 Oregon National Guard troops just home from Iraq By Nancy Townsley The Forest Grove News-Times, Apr 19, 2010, Updated 8 hours ago It will be standing room only Thursday on Jeff Durham field at Forest Grove High School. At noon, a Howitzer cannon will boom out the news that 220 soldiers from the Oregon Army National Guard's 2nd Battalion, 218th Infantry are back in town. The public is invited to the unit's official demobilization ceremony, but the stands at Dick Hendricks Stadium will be reserved for the wives, husbands, sons, daughters and parents waiting to welcome them home. Part of a 2,700-troop deployment of the National Guard's 41st Brigade, headquartered in Tigard, the soldiers spent the last 10 months in Al Asad, Iraq, helping with convoy missions. To the 218th, the Forest Grove Armory is home - and for many of its members, Thursday will mark the first time they've seen family members for a whole year. "There will be 220 soldiers standing on the football field in formation," said Officer Candidate Jim Ellifrit of Forest Grove, a project officer for the local armory. "We'd love to see the community come out en masse and line every street on the way to the high school." Before the mid-day ceremony - which will feature Oregon congressional and legislative luminaries, a representative from Gov. Ted Kulongoski's office and Forest Grove Mayor Pete Truax - buses carrying just-returned soldiers will motor through Banks, south on Highway 47 and Quince Street, west on Pacific Avenue and north on B Street to FGHS, 1401 Nichols Lane. The city's even trotting out its large ceremonial flag, posted at the east entrance of town, for the occasion. For more information about the local ceremony, contact the Oregon Military Department at 503-584-3980. Copyright 2010 Pamplin Media Group, 6605 S.E. Lake Road, Portland, OR 97222 . 503-226-6397" Mark Nakajima From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 17:39:48 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:39:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCE33F9.60906@jurislex.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> <4BCE33F9.60906@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Well, as a health care practitioner, I would love to purchase an affordable AED. I don't have time to play a major part in a community-wide training and awareness campaign concerning AEDs. If I were going to devote volunteer hours concerning the topic of heart disease, it would probably be time devoted to educating folks about how they can improve their diets and increase their exercise in order to reduce the heart disease that makes having AEDs important. But, I certainly wish you good luck on the AED issue. Jane B-P On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Actually, I was hoping that, as a health care practitioner, you would be > part of (not my!! but) the community's plan!! > > bob "your friend" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/20/2010 3:43 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > > Doesn't sound like I am a part of your plan. > > Jane B-P > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > > > Ah, Jane, but my hope is that with bulk buying, some support from > Phillips, and some grants to help show what a small town can do to at least > meet the American Heart Association public access to defibrillation > guidelines, we can do 3 things: > > 1. Show what a smaller community can do to have a community based and > coordinated program of automated electronic defibrillation. > > 2. Help to make sure that the program is both supported and maintained over > time. > > 3. Help get the cost to the small business owner and to churches and other > non-profits down to a point where the community not only meets, but exceeds > the minimum AHA guidelines. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Apr 20 17:42:53 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:42:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: "Mark Nakajima" 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:38:03 -0700 Message-ID: <5230-4BCE4A0D-13405@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> it works fine for me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/98fc8f56/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 17:48:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:48:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard References: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <003801cae0ea$2485ad70$6d910850$@net> Message-ID: <4BCE4B59.000057.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you. Never heard of the robbery. Don -------Original Message------- From: Mark Nakajima Date: 4/20/2010 5:31:22 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=1271719920024375 00 Mark Nakajima _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/4bd6a562/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Tue Apr 20 17:53:12 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:53:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] We could help make FG one of the safer places to be . . . . . In-Reply-To: <6C9F80A7-5536-4070-B0EA-74B870CD1AB3@teleport.com> References: <4BCC9C02.6050702@jurislex.com> <4BCE2535.5070607@jurislex.com> <6C9F80A7-5536-4070-B0EA-74B870CD1AB3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCE4C78.6050602@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/90366c2f/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 17:59:44 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:59:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard References: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> <005501cae0eb$43dc06f0$cb9414d0$@net> Message-ID: <210676BB80854AD5B820E576A333B982@gerianehzkfhvy> Wonderful!!! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Nakajima" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard > I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I am having problems opening the > link in the email. > > Here's the story: > > > "Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming > Ceremony at high school to welcome 220 Oregon National Guard troops just > home from Iraq > By Nancy Townsley > > The Forest Grove News-Times, Apr 19, 2010, Updated 8 hours ago > > It will be standing room only Thursday on Jeff Durham field at Forest Grove > High School. > > At noon, a Howitzer cannon will boom out the news that 220 soldiers from the > Oregon Army National Guard's 2nd Battalion, 218th Infantry are back in town. > > > The public is invited to the unit's official demobilization ceremony, but > the stands at Dick Hendricks Stadium will be reserved for the wives, > husbands, sons, daughters and parents waiting to welcome them home. > > Part of a 2,700-troop deployment of the National Guard's 41st Brigade, > headquartered in Tigard, the soldiers spent the last 10 months in Al Asad, > Iraq, helping with convoy missions. > > To the 218th, the Forest Grove Armory is home - and for many of its members, > Thursday will mark the first time they've seen family members for a whole > year. > > "There will be 220 soldiers standing on the football field in formation," > said Officer Candidate Jim Ellifrit of Forest Grove, a project officer for > the local armory. "We'd love to see the community come out en masse and line > every street on the way to the high school." > > Before the mid-day ceremony - which will feature Oregon congressional and > legislative luminaries, a representative from Gov. Ted Kulongoski's office > and Forest Grove Mayor Pete Truax - buses carrying just-returned soldiers > will motor through Banks, south on Highway 47 and Quince Street, west on > Pacific Avenue and north on B Street to FGHS, 1401 Nichols Lane. > > The city's even trotting out its large ceremonial flag, posted at the east > entrance of town, for the occasion. > > For more information about the local ceremony, contact the Oregon Military > Department at 503-584-3980. > > Copyright 2010 Pamplin Media Group, 6605 S.E. Lake Road, Portland, OR 97222 > . 503-226-6397" > > Mark Nakajima > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From chuck at grovenet.net Tue Apr 20 18:35:00 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:35:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] old computer for the asking In-Reply-To: <8CCAEFC284AC56C-1980-184F8@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CCAEFC284AC56C-1980-184F8@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4BCE5644.7030402@grovenet.net> nuzriter at aol.com wrote: > I have a computer that Chuck Woodchuck built for me about four years ago. I have since obtained a laptop and don't need my desktop computer. It still works wonderfully but obviously not as good/fast as newer models. If anyone wants it (small unit like a shoebox, keyboard and newer monitor), let me know directly. It would be fine for a young student and it's free. I need to get rid of it NOW. > > > Linda Saari > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > Ah - the old Shuttle. They were designed to last! Would be a good homework/email machine. From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Tue Apr 20 19:20:12 2010 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (jschrag at fgnewstimes.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:20:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> References: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> Message-ID: I don't know why the link Mark provided didn't work. Here it is again. http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=127171992002437500 We'll have an expanded story in the paper tomorrow so check it out. We're also trying to find a way to produce a special commemorative section for next week's paper. We'd love to have four pages of full color so we can run lots of photos from Thursday. But color is very expensive. Do you think we could find businesses and individuals willing to buy "thank-you" ads to help defray our costs? We'd need at least 25 people willing to spend $50-$75 for a small ad. We also could allow people to just add their name for a lower cost ($20?). Any ideas? Let me know. We're not looking to make money on this, just recover our press and labor costs. John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times Forest Grove, Oregon 503-357-3181 ? Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008 ? ? ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Mark Nakajima Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:38 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard Let's try this one: Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=1271719920024375 00 Mark Nakajima From redhead854 at msn.com Tue Apr 20 19:28:55 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:28:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: References: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net>, Message-ID: My son says the FGHS band is going to be marching with the Military in a parade thru Forest grove. Are the soldiers going to be in buses? > From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:20:12 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard > > > I don't know why the link Mark provided didn't work. Here it is again. > > > http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=127171992002437500 > > > We'll have an expanded story in the paper tomorrow so check it out. > > We're also trying to find a way to produce a special commemorative section for next week's paper. We'd love to have four pages of full color so we can run lots of photos from Thursday. But color is very expensive. Do you think we could find businesses and individuals willing to buy "thank-you" ads to help defray our costs? We'd need at least 25 people willing to spend $50-$75 for a small ad. We also could allow people to just add their name for a lower cost ($20?). > > Any ideas? Let me know. We're not looking to make money on this, just recover our press and labor costs. > > > > > > John Schrag > Editor & Publisher > News-Times > Forest Grove, Oregon > 503-357-3181 > > Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Mark Nakajima > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:38 PM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard > > Let's try this one: > > Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming > > http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=1271719920024375 > 00 > > > > Mark Nakajima > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 20 19:48:41 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:48:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just in case you haven't heard In-Reply-To: <005501cae0eb$43dc06f0$cb9414d0$@net> References: <003e01cae0ea$e732ddc0$b5989940$@net> <005501cae0eb$43dc06f0$cb9414d0$@net> Message-ID: <201004201948.42076.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Hi Mark, part of the URL got wrapped to the next line so the link was shy a couple of zeros. Gotta watch that word wrap! On Tuesday 20 April 2010 05:40:39 pm Mark Nakajima wrote: > I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I am having problems opening the > link in the email. > > Here's the story: > > > "Forest Grove hosts soldiers' homecoming > Ceremony at high school to welcome 220 Oregon National Guard troops just > home from Iraq > By Nancy Townsley > > The Forest Grove News-Times, Apr 19, 2010, Updated 8 hours ago > > It will be standing room only Thursday on Jeff Durham field at Forest Grove > High School. > > At noon, a Howitzer cannon will boom out the news that 220 soldiers from > the Oregon Army National Guard's 2nd Battalion, 218th Infantry are back in > town. > > > The public is invited to the unit's official demobilization ceremony, but > the stands at Dick Hendricks Stadium will be reserved for the wives, > husbands, sons, daughters and parents waiting to welcome them home. > > Part of a 2,700-troop deployment of the National Guard's 41st Brigade, > headquartered in Tigard, the soldiers spent the last 10 months in Al Asad, > Iraq, helping with convoy missions. > > To the 218th, the Forest Grove Armory is home - and for many of its > members, Thursday will mark the first time they've seen family members for > a whole year. > > "There will be 220 soldiers standing on the football field in formation," > said Officer Candidate Jim Ellifrit of Forest Grove, a project officer for > the local armory. "We'd love to see the community come out en masse and > line every street on the way to the high school." > > Before the mid-day ceremony - which will feature Oregon congressional and > legislative luminaries, a representative from Gov. Ted Kulongoski's office > and Forest Grove Mayor Pete Truax - buses carrying just-returned soldiers > will motor through Banks, south on Highway 47 and Quince Street, west on > Pacific Avenue and north on B Street to FGHS, 1401 Nichols Lane. > > The city's even trotting out its large ceremonial flag, posted at the east > entrance of town, for the occasion. > > For more information about the local ceremony, contact the Oregon Military > Department at 503-584-3980. > > Copyright 2010 Pamplin Media Group, 6605 S.E. Lake Road, Portland, OR 97222 > . 503-226-6397" > > Mark Nakajima > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 20 19:52:24 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:52:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the size limit! Message-ID: <201004201952.24749.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Maximum size for a post to Grovenet is 300KB. Larger posts go the bucket. Remember that even if your camera saves an image as a jpeg, it may not actually be compressed. You may need to open it in an image editor and save with compression turned on, about 85 is the normal default setting. Thank you! From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 20:00:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:00:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the size limit! References: <201004201952.24749.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4BCE6A4E.00006F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you. Didn't realize a photo was sent. Don -------Original Message------- From: Meredith Bliss Date: 4/20/2010 7:52:34 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Remember the size limit! Maximum size for a post to Grovenet is 300KB. Larger posts go the bucket. Remember that even if your camera saves an image as a jpeg, it may not actually be compressed. You may need to open it in an image editor and save with compression turned on, about 85 is the normal default setting. Thank you! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/625894c6/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 20 20:08:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids References: <4BCAC2F2.000012.02460@DON-B2514E06367> <180901cadf41$dcbc32b0$96349810$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D9115346@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <0C56A87E284B479EBD68F0341C46A7F5@JeffVAIO> <7DB743BF-3E6C-47B7-8386-399C2ED9961C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268@DON-B2514E06367> RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, Constitution and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through hypocrisy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment.ksh From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 20:57:47 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931CEF1@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: > Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished Lecture with Eric Schlosser > > ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley Distinguished Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of the leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He is the author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, and Chew on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. > > The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will follow the lecture. > > April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu > From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 22:02:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue In-Reply-To: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCE385B.000037.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don, Is this Bob a source of your information? Whoa! Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, does that mean they can take away guns? No. Amendments are not signed by the President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like any other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a signature. David On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: Bob Velon ... > Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue > > There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he have called the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... > > Bob From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 22:36:22 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 01:00:32 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the past 2,000 years. Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy and cynicism are rampant. Holly ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 01:02:14 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 08:38:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 21 08:53:12 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of this: "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 09:27:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of respond to all. Thanks again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 10:05:32 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 10:07:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several major issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I believe they did the best they could do under the present circumstances. However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear passages clearly defined. QUOTE of the day: The Foundation "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 10:18:25 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235@teleport.com> If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit > drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 10:47:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment-0001.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 10:52:40 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:52:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Loss - Knowledge vs Life (was: Supreme Court Arguments...) In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026901cae17b$70642a00$512c7e00$@com> Walt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Walt Wentz > > [...] various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms > probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Is it wrong that I am compelled to mourn the loss of knowledge more than the loss of the human lives? I find the loss of knowledge to have such a longer lasting effect than the loss of the human lives. Is it that the loss of human life was so long ago and I'm so disconnected from it? Would it be different if it were someone closer to me vs knowledge that were somehow closer to me? Thoughts? Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 21 10:53:29 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:53:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Muhammad died on June 8, 632 CE. It took a while for Islam to become a major force that could throw its weight around the Mediterranean basin. The Roman empire basically imploded in 476 CE. The Byzantine empire operated a good bit longer. With the Roman empire basically kaput, I'm wondering what battle or incident found Muslims killing the 50,000 "Roman soldiers" claimed in the message below? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:48 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 11:11:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:11:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BCF3FB8.000057.02824@DON-B2514E06367> It seems from passages of the bible, writings of the Greeks, and the extraordinary, almost unbelievable grasp of the history channel, that everything stated below is true. Further, as the Israelites re conquered their homelands of Israel, they killed the Philistines to the last man, then assailed whole cities that refused to surrender, and killed every living thing in those cities, King, people, and animals. Yet in contemporary times that rate of killing is not unusual. Oliver Cromwell demanded that the Irish in walled cities surrender to him. When they refused, he knocked their walls down with cannons and then slaughtered everyone in the city. He did not have to do that in the other walled cities. Surprise? In modern times we use weapons of mass destruction to kill people. I pray that such weapons will never be used again, against any country. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 8:53:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of this: "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/61f3a083/attachment.gif From isis23ra at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 11:12:36 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have to pay for wars that I disagee with.? Alana ? --- On Wed, 4/21/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:47 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: What to teach our kids (donkelly) ???2. Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser (David Morelli) ???3. Re: Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth??? certificate ? ? ? issue (David Morelli) ???4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated??? inCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (David Morelli) ???5. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated??? inCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (Holly T.) ???6. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn??? HeatedinCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (Jeff Howden) ???7. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated??? inCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (Walt Wentz) ???8. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn??? Heated??? inCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (Steele, Mike) ???9. Re: Supreme Court Arguments??? TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law ? ? ? Student Group (donkelly) ? 10. New money, but not for you . . . . (Bob Browning) ? 11. Re: Supreme Court Arguments??? TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law ? ? ? Student Group (donkelly) ? 12. Re: New money, but not for you . . . . (Walt Wentz) ? 13. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn??? HeatedinCaseOverChristian ? ? ? Law Student Group (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, Constitution and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through hypocrisy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts"? and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old.? How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age?? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself.? Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion?? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group?? And a separate discussion for adults?? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?"? Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved.? The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser To: grovenet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished Lecture with Eric Schlosser >? > ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley Distinguished Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of the leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He is the author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, and Chew on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. >? > The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will follow the lecture. >? > April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu >? ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth ??? certificate??? issue To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don, Is this Bob a source of your information?? Whoa! Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, does that mean they can take away guns?? No.? Amendments are not signed by the President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like any other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a signature. David On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: Bob Velon ... > Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue > > There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment.? It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born...? I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment.? Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President.? That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen...? Lots of questions and no answers.? Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy.? It makes me wonder why.? Could he have called the usurper in as a witness?? If so that may be the reason..... > > Bob ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated ??? inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset=us-ascii Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game?? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that?? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag?? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies.? > keep the ten commandments in the? courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)?? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time.? There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity.? We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day.? I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Holly T." Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated ??? inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm at web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the past 2,000 years. Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected.? I wish I were wrong. No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy and cynicism are rampant. Holly ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game?? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that?? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag?? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies.? > keep the ten commandments in the? courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)?? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time.? There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity.? We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day.? I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? ? ? ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn ??? HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="US-ASCII" Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case.? If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it.? As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it.? Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated ??? inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the? militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the? Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the? world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient? even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion,? were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only? massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant? in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and? "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not? only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also? surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake--? while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version? of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in? the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has? already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions? of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and? human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare? > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups.? > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even? > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression? > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme? > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the? > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up? > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars,? > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as? > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know? > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological? > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human? > suffering, then I will stand corrected.? I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the? > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this? > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I? > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive? > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian? > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have? > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really? > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their? > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy? > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests? > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated? > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones? > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights? >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers? > before a public school football game?? Do you really want to have? > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud? > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or? > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that?? Do you want to? > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under? > the flag?? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions? > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their? > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the? courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE? > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten? > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on? > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)?? That is a reasonable? > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time.? There is no? > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity.? We even had a? > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all? > church services on Christmas day.? I don't want that kind of? > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn??? Heated ??? inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Indeed, Walt.? For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur:? The Albigensian Crusade_.? Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath.? Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France:? "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric.? There is an alternate version of this:? "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the? militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the? Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the? world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient? even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion,? were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only? massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant? in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and? "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not? only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also? surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake--? while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version? of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in? the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has? already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions? of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and? human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare? > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups.? > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even? > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression? > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme? > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the? > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up? > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars,? > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as? > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know? > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological? > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human? > suffering, then I will stand corrected.? I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the? > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this? > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I? > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive? > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian? > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have? > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really? > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their? > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy? > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests? > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated? > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones? > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights? >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers? > before a public school football game?? Do you really want to have? > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud? > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or? > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that?? Do you want to? > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under? > the flag?? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions? > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their? > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the? courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE? > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten? > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on? > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)?? That is a reasonable? > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time.? There is no? > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity.? We even had a? > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all? > church services on Christmas day.? I don't want that kind of? > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments ??? TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: ,??? "Forest Grove local interests list" ??? Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of respond to all. Thanks again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case.? If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it.? As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it.? Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Grovenet Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments ??? TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several major issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I believe they did the best they could do under the present circumstances. However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get? unclear passages clearly defined. ??? QUOTE of the day: The Foundation "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset=US-ASCII;??? delsp=yes;??? format=flowed If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be? more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles? of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller? packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit? > drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn ??? HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected.? I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game?? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that?? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag?? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the? courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)?? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time.? There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity.? We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day.? I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 **************************************** From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 11:19:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:19:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Loss - Knowledge vs Life (was: Supreme Court Arguments...) In-Reply-To: <026901cae17b$70642a00$512c7e00$@com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <026901cae17b$70642a00$512c7e00$@com> Message-ID: Obviously a great deal of ancient knowledge has been lost-- as in the repeated sackings and burnings of the Great Libraries at Alexandria, Constantinople, etc.-- while much more has been lost through simple neglect, vandalism by the intolerant and ignorant, or the deaths of knowledge-holders during periods of cultural decline. And the vast oral culture of the pre-Christian civilizations of Europe now exist only as fragments of Norse mythology, scraps of Celtic poetry, the Christianized transcriptions of a few early monks, and the symbolism in Grimm's Fairy Tales. (What I'd give for just a few years of time travel, with an entourage of clerks and copyists...) And, for that matter, how much mechanical and technological knowledge has also been completely obscured by intolerance or neglect? The Antikythera Device reveals new levels of complexity with each new examination. Yet we know nothing of the sophisticated predecessors to this early astronomical computer, which was built about 100 BC, and nothing remotely like it appeared again until after the 14th Century. I have begun to believe that human creativity is balanced by human destruction, and that the constant creation of new beauty and knowledge is offset by its near-continual obliteration through ignorance, indifference and intolerance. I believe that anyone capable of creating beauty or knowledge is obligated to do so, merely to keep a little ahead of the forces of darkness. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Walt, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Walt Wentz >> >> [...] various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms >> probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Is it wrong that I am compelled to mourn the loss of knowledge more > than the > loss of the human lives? I find the loss of knowledge to have such > a longer > lasting effect than the loss of the human lives. Is it that the > loss of > human life was so long ago and I'm so disconnected from it? Would > it be > different if it were someone closer to me vs knowledge that were > somehow > closer to me? > > Thoughts? > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 11:18:42 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:18:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several > major issues. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< They're generally pretty objective, at least on the issues I've ended up using them for. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Despite the fact they have been discredited before, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I realize some people are out to discredit them as it makes it easier to spin, lie, spread mistruths, etc. However, there isn't any motive for a site that's based on fact-checking to not make their best effort to do the one thing they stake their reputation and entire business model on. Further, the claims made about them have been refuted, at least to my satisfaction, especially when you consider the source of the claims and the source's track record for truth (or lack thereof). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I believe they did the best they could do under the present > circumstances. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, it's not an absolutely clearcut issue. However, nothing as complicated as an issue like abortion has any amount of non-complexity. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] However, present circumstances still reveal that the health > care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in > leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what > we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear > passages clearly defined. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone here would claim the contrary. However, while flawed, there are things about it that are good and necessary. Staying the course without it is financial suicide both individually and nationally. Time will expose those things that don't work and hopefully we can find sensible solutions to them. Of the things still left to do with regard to health care, here's how I see it: - Tort Reform - Hospital Greed - Malpractice Insurance Costs - General Insurance Greed - Big Pharma - Patents ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, > too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." > --Thomas Jefferson ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Excellent quote. Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 21 11:25:55 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:25:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D714@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Bingo. And all that goes with them...typically, a society "pays for a war" for many, many decades after it formally ends...and that's just for the tangibles that can be measured. The intangibles may be even "more costly." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Alana Graham Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:13 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with I have to pay for wars that I disagee with. Alana --- On Wed, 4/21/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:47 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: What to teach our kids (donkelly) 2. Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser (David Morelli) 3. Re: Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue (David Morelli) 4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (David Morelli) 5. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Holly T.) 6. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Jeff Howden) 7. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Walt Wentz) 8. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Steele, Mike) 9. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 10. New money, but not for you . . . . (Bob Browning) 11. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 12. Re: New money, but not for you . . . . (Walt Wentz) 13. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, Constitution and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through hypocrisy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser To: grovenet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished Lecture with Eric Schlosser > > ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley Distinguished Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of the leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He is the author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, and Chew on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. > > The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will follow the lecture. > > April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall, Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don, Is this Bob a source of your information? Whoa! Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, does that mean they can take away guns? No. Amendments are not signed by the President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like any other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a signature. David On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: Bob Velon ... > Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue > > There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he have called the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... > > Bob ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Holly T." Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm at web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the past 2,000 years. Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy and cynicism are rampant. Holly ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of this: "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of respond to all. Thanks again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Grovenet Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several major issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I believe they did the best they could do under the present circumstances. However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear passages clearly defined. QUOTE of the day: The Foundation "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit > drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 **************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 11:44:50 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:44:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF47A2.5080907@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/f07a77d4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo09.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2940 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/f07a77d4/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 11:48:56 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:48:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . References: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF488E.000062.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Good looking bill, which is unlike the health bill. But like the health bill that has Obama's fingerprints on it, this bill cannot be real. It doesn't have Obama's portrait on it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/21/2010 10:05:44 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! bob "could use a few of those myself" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/8ac590a1/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 12:42:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:42:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with References: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCF54FB.000079.02824@DON-B2514E06367> I agree that wars should only be fought in self defense. I hope to live long enough to see all wars ended. Idealistic? Yes I know. By the way, does anyone know what the Latin words Laus Deo mean? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alana Graham Date: 4/21/2010 11:12:51 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with I have to pay for wars that I disagee with. Alana --- On Wed, 4/21/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:47 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: What to teach our kids (donkelly) 2. Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser (David Morelli) 3. Re: Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue (David Morelli) 4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (David Morelli) 5. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Holly T.) 6. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Jeff Howden) 7. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Walt Wentz) 8. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Steele, Mike) 9. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 10. New money, but not for you . . . . (Bob Browning) 11. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 12. Re: New money, but not for you . . . . (Walt Wentz) 13. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, Constitution and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through hypocrisy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser To: grovenet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished Lecture with Eric Schlosser > > ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley Distinguished Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of the leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He is the author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, and Chew on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. > > The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will follow the lecture. > > April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don, Is this Bob a source of your information? Whoa! Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, does that mean they can take away guns? No. Amendments are not signed by the President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like any other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a signature David On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: Bob Velon ... > Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue > > There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he have called the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... > > Bob ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Holly T." Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm at web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the past 2,000 years. Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the last 2 000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy and cynicism are rampant. Holly ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of this: "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of respond to all. Thanks again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Grovenet Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several major issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I believe they did the best they could do under the present circumstances. However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear passages clearly defined. QUOTE of the day: The Foundation "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit > drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 **************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/68e743b3/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 12:43:39 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:43:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCF488E.000062.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> <4BCF488E.000062.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6B9DF350-27CC-4DC7-835D-78BB4E44277B@teleport.com> Snorky, snorky... On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:48 AM, donkelly wrote: > > Good looking bill, which is unlike the health bill. > > But like the health bill that has Obama's fingerprints on it, this > bill > cannot be real. > > It doesn't have Obama's portrait on it. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/21/2010 10:05:44 AM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . > > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit drug > dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > > > _____________________________________________ > __ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 12:52:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:52:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCF54FB.000079.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4BCF54FB.000079.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don: means "praise be to God." I, too, hope that any future wars we fight will only be in self- defense. Wars for commerce should be treated as crimes. I predict we will see "wars of desperation," over fresh water and other resources, if the population keeps increasing as the sea levels rise and climate shifts. On Apr 21, 2010, at 12:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > I agree that wars should only be fought in self defense. I hope to > live long > enough to see all wars ended. > > Idealistic? Yes I know. > > By the way, does anyone know what the Latin words Laus Deo mean? > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alana Graham > Date: 4/21/2010 11:12:51 AM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with > > I have to pay for wars that I disagee with. Alana > > > --- On Wed, 4/21/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com request at rdrop.com> > wrote: > > > From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com > Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:47 AM > > > Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to > grovenet at rdrop.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > grovenet-request at rdrop.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > grovenet-owner at rdrop.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: What to teach our kids (donkelly) > 2. Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser (David > Morelli) > 3. Re: Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate > issue (David Morelli) > 4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (David Morelli) > 5. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (Holly T.) > 6. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (Jeff Howden) > 7. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (Walt Wentz) > 8. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (Steele, Mike) > 9. Re: Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law > Student Group (donkelly) > 10. New money, but not for you . . . . (Bob Browning) > 11. Re: Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law > Student Group (donkelly) > 12. Re: New money, but not for you . . . . (Walt Wentz) > 13. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian > Law Student Group (donkelly) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, > Constitution > and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. > > It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through > hypocrisy. > > Don > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > > Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the > unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own > "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we > teach children to perceive reality? > WW > > On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How >> do we >> teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet >> age? How do >> I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than >> another news organization? >> >> It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be >> willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a >> discussion for >> the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I >> don't think >> we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already >> know it >> all. :) >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Steele, Mike" >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM >> To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land >> >>> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >>> this. >>> >>> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >>> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >>> sense of >>> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >>> photoshopping make >>> it all the more complicated. >>> >>> Case closed. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.html > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 41807 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.gif > -------------- next part -------------- > An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.ksh > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 > From: David Morelli > Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser > To: grovenet > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished >> Lecture > with Eric Schlosser >> >> ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and > award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley > Distinguished > Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of > the > leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He > is the > author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, > Reefer > Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, > and Chew > on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. >> >> The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will > follow the lecture. >> >> April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, >> McCready Hall > Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more > information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 > From: David Morelli > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth > certificate issue > To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests > list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Don, > > Is this Bob a source of your information? Whoa! > > Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. > > BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, > does that > mean they can take away guns? No. Amendments are not signed by the > President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like > any > other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a > signature > > > David > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> -------Original Message------- >> From: Bob Velon ... >> Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue >> >> There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the >> 14th > Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for > president > and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth > yet but I > did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also > understood > that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified > nor was > it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be > stricken and in > doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a > U.S. > citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was > reassigned > instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he > have called > the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... >> >> Bob > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 > From: David Morelli > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests > list > Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to > consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and > live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a > public school football game? Do you really want to have the > "Mighty Mo's" > chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without > gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be > exposed to > Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I > just had a > thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have > phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went > up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments > that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the > second time > (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are > completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when > the Christian church in political power outlawed all church > services on > Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Holly T." > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm at web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the > extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not > even the > worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking > up the > amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, > fed, and > initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful > campaigns over the past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many > holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive > kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human > suffering > and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you > can name > even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected > with the > causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I > wish I > were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2 > 000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those > who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd > be even > more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only > because of > the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we > have let > them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet > another > rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when > national > apathy and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to > consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and > live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a > public school football game? Do you really want to have the > "Mighty Mo's" > chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without > gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be > exposed to > Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I > just had a > thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have > phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went > up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments > that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the > second time > (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are > completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when > the Christian church in political power outlawed all church > services on > Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 > From: Jeff Howden > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn > HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Don, > > First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that > before, I'm > guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've > misunderstood, I > apologize. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >> Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, >> and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. > > Here's a better explanation: > > http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ > > More here: > > http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 > > It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a > health > insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to > send a > separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for > abortions. > > It's actually pretty clear. > > Jeff > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the > militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the > Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the > world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient > even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, > were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only > massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant > in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and > "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not > only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also > surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- > while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version > of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in > the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has > already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions > of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and > human knowledge. > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare >> the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. >> Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even >> close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression >> that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme >> Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the >> past 2,000 years. >> >> Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up >> as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, >> repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as >> much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know >> I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological >> group that has been connected with the causes of so much human >> suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. >> >> No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the >> last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this >> earth. >> >> Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I >> blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive >> today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian >> right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have >> caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really >> scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their >> repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy >> and cynicism are rampant. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Morelli >> To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests >> list >> Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated >> inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group >> >> Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones >> you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. >> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>>> to be and live as Christians. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>> Are they? How exactly? >>> >>> ====== >> >>> pray where they want, >> How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers >> before a public school football game? Do you really want to have >> the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud >> speaker system? >> >>> display crosses where they want, >> Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or >> without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to >> be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under >> the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions >> throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their >> religious ceremonies. >> >>> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, >> Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE >> he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten >> commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on >> Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable >> question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". >> >>> display nativity scenes in front of their house, >> Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no >> restriction on private display. >> >>> etc.======== >> >> America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a >> time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all >> church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of >> control over my practices. >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 > From: "Steele, Mike" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > > <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of > dissent, > see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. > Nothing > subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about > the > massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the > Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly > screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of > this: "Kill > them all and let God sort it out." > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the > militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the > Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the > world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient > even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, > were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only > massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant > in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and > "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not > only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also > surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- > while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version > of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in > the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has > already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions > of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and > human knowledge. > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare >> the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. >> Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even >> close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression >> that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme >> Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the >> past 2,000 years. >> >> Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up >> as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, >> repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as >> much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know >> I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological >> group that has been connected with the causes of so much human >> suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. >> >> No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the >> last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this >> earth. >> >> Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I >> blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive >> today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian >> right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have >> caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really >> scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their >> repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy >> and cynicism are rampant. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Morelli >> To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests >> list >> Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated >> inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group >> >> Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones >> you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. >> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>>> to be and live as Christians. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>> Are they? How exactly? >>> >>> ====== >> >>> pray where they want, >> How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers >> before a public school football game? Do you really want to have >> the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud >> speaker system? >> >>> display crosses where they want, >> Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or >> without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to >> be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under >> the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions >> throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their >> religious ceremonies. >> >>> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, >> Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE >> he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten >> commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on >> Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable >> question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". >> >>> display nativity scenes in front of their house, >> Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no >> restriction on private display. >> >>> etc.======== >> >> America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a >> time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all >> church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of >> control over my practices. >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of > respond to > all. Thanks again. Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Don, > > First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that > before, I'm > guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've > misunderstood, I > apologize. > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >> Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, >> and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. > > Here's a better explanation: > > http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ > > More here: > > http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 > > It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a > health > insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to > send a > separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for > abortions. > > It's actually pretty clear. > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 31851 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment-0001.gif > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 > From: Bob Browning > Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . > To: Grovenet > Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305 at jurislex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several > major > issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I > believe they > did the best they could do under the present circumstances. > > However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care > bill is > flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and > at home. > > So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, > while > continuing attempts to get unclear passages clearly defined. > > QUOTE of the day: > > The Foundation > "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, > too many > parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson > > Don > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 46417 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment-0001.gif > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235 at teleport.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; > format=flowed > > If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be > more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles > of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller > packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. > WW > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit >> drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! >> >> bob "could use a few of those myself" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn > HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. > > Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn > everyone in > the world to death who is not Muslim. > > In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and > back to > Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history > channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one > day...... > .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. > > Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred > million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put > together. It > is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. > > What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, > may be > tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if > they are > tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled > radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your > death. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn > HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the > militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the > Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the > world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient > even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, > were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only > massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant > in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and > "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not > only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also > surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- > while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version > of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in > the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has > already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions > of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and > human knowledge. > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare >> the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. >> Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even >> close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression >> that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme >> Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the >> past 2,000 years. >> >> Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up >> as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, >> repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as >> much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know >> I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological >> group that has been connected with the causes of so much human >> suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. >> >> No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the >> last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this >> earth. >> >> Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I >> blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive >> today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian >> right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have >> caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really >> scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their >> repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy >> and cynicism are rampant. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Morelli >> To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests >> list >> Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated >> inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group >> >> Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones >> you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. >> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>>> to be and live as Christians. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>>> > >>>> < >>> Are they? How exactly? >>> >>> ====== >> >>> pray where they want, >> How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers >> before a public school football game? Do you really want to have >> the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud >> speaker system? >> >>> display crosses where they want, >> Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or >> without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to >> be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under >> the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions >> throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their >> religious ceremonies. >> >>> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, >> Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE >> he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten >> commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on >> Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable >> question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". >> >>> display nativity scenes in front of their house, >> Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no >> restriction on private display. >> >>> etc.======== >> >> America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a >> time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all >> church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of >> control over my practices. >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 46417 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment.gif > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 > **************************************** > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 21 12:58:12 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:58:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCF54FB.000079.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <721361.74933.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4BCF54FB.000079.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931DA41@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Laus deo: praise be to God --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 12:42 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with I agree that wars should only be fought in self defense. I hope to live long enough to see all wars ended. Idealistic? Yes I know. By the way, does anyone know what the Latin words Laus Deo mean? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alana Graham Date: 4/21/2010 11:12:51 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with I have to pay for wars that I disagee with. Alana --- On Wed, 4/21/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:47 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: What to teach our kids (donkelly) 2. Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser (David Morelli) 3. Re: Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue (David Morelli) 4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (David Morelli) 5. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Holly T.) 6. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Jeff Howden) 7. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Walt Wentz) 8. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (Steele, Mike) 9. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 10. New money, but not for you . . . . (Bob Browning) 11. Re: Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) 12. Re: New money, but not for you . . . . (Walt Wentz) 13. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:08:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What to teach our kids To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCE6C47.000072.00268 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RRR for starts, but also teach them the Constitutional Papers, Constitution and Bill of rights, and amendments to the constitution. It would be good if we all knew enough to immediately see through hypocrisy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/19/2010 9:11:10 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land Marian, that is an important question. In an era where the unscrupulous or the downright deranged can mass-produce their own "facts" and influence millions through the blogosphere, how can we teach children to perceive reality? WW On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I'm struggling with exactly that concept with my 11 year old. How > do we > teach our kids what is fact and what is fiction in the Internet > age? How do > I tell her teach her that one news organization is more reliable than > another news organization? > > It seems like a class in and of itself. Is there anyone who would be > willing to lead such a community discussion? Could we have a > discussion for > the 10-14 age group? And a separate discussion for adults? I > don't think > we'll need a class for the 15-21 age group, because they already > know it > all. :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:38 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] There were giants in the land > >> Thanks, Jeff...I hope we don't have to see much more drivel like >> this. >> >> One of the major issues I get to deal with here at Pacific is "what >> constitutes evidence?" Students often have only a rudimentary >> sense of >> how to approach the issues involved. The Internet and >> photoshopping make >> it all the more complicated. >> >> Case closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100420/bde0042c/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:57:47 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Pacific's Whiteley Lecture: Eric Schlosser To: grovenet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Pacific University presents this year?s Whiteley Distinguished Lecture with Eric Schlosser > > ?Sustainability and the Politics of Food?: Bestselling author and award-winning journalist Eric Schlosser will give the Whiteley Distinguished Lecture at Pacific University on April 22. Eric Schlosser is one of the leading investigative journalists working in the United States. He is the author of Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market, and Chew on This: Everything You Don?t Want to Know About Fast Food. > > The lecture is free and open to the public. A book-signing event will follow the lecture. > > April 22, 2010, 7:00pm, Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center, McCready Hall Pacific University, Pacific Avenue, Forest Grove, OR, 97116. For more information, contact cowing at pacificu.edu > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:02:09 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don, Is this Bob a source of your information? Whoa! Bob hasn't read the 14th Amendment and yet feels free to misquote it. BTW, the Second Amendment was never signed by a President either, does that mean they can take away guns? No. Amendments are not signed by the President, the resolution offering the Amendment may be signed like any other law, or vetoed and the veto overridden by Congress without a signature David On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: Bob Velon ... > Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of the Obama birth certificate issue > > There has been talk that he skirted the constitution by using the 14th Amendment. It supposedly says that any U.S. citizen can run for president and not having to be natural born... I have not read it in depth yet but I did download something regarding that amendment. Now it is also understood that the Amendment is unlawful and illegal as it was never ratified nor was it ever signed by the President. That amendment needs to be stricken and in doing so would take Obama with it.... I wonder also if he is even a U.S. citizen... Lots of questions and no answers. Lt. Col. Lakin was reassigned instead of having to deploy. It makes me wonder why. Could he have called the usurper in as a witness? If so that may be the reason..... > > Bob ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:22 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Holly T." Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <913343.83496.qm at web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the past 2,000 years. Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the last 2 000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this earth. Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy and cynicism are rampant. Holly ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Jeff, just a couple. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights to be and live as Christians. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they? How exactly? > > ====== > pray where they want, How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers before a public school football game? Do you really want to have the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud speaker system? > display crosses where they want, Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their religious ceremonies. > keep the ten commandments in the courts system, Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > display nativity scenes in front of their house, Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no restriction on private display. > etc.======== America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of control over my practices. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:02:14 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:38:05 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:53:12 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D1E7 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Indeed, Walt. For a snapshot glimpse of the Church's handling of dissent, see Oldenburg's _Massacre at Montsegur: The Albigensian Crusade_. Nothing subtle there...total bloodbath. Then there's the famous line about the massacre in the Beziers cathedral, during the church's war against the Cathars in France: "Kill them all, for God knows his own!"--allegedly screamed by Arnald-Amalric. There is an alternate version of this: "Kill them all and let God sort it out." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:27:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF2786.00002A.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you. I could have clicked on respond to sender instead of respond to all. Thanks again. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 1:02:26 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, First, this went to me personally, but as you've never done that before, I'm guessing it was just an oversight in this case. If I've misunderstood, I apologize. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Abortions covered by taxes is in the health care bill as written, > and despite promises to removeit, it is still there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's a misleading way of stating it. As written it's not factual. Here's a better explanation: http://factcheck.org/2010/04/more-malarkey-about-health-care/ More here: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003240009 It's a simple matter for those opposed to it to simply opt for a health insurance plan that doesn't cover it. Then, you won't be asked to send a separation abortion premium that'll go into the fund used to pay for abortions. It's actually pretty clear. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/a67771dc/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:32 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Grovenet Message-ID: <4BCF305C.7060305 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/e14d860a/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:07:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF30C4.000033.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several major issues. Despite the fact they have been discredited before, I believe they did the best they could do under the present circumstances. However, present circumstances still reveal that the health care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear passages clearly defined. QUOTE of the day: The Foundation "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/394948d3/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:18:25 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <07D29A48-2AEF-4C45-862A-37464AE95235 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If they now "demonetize" the old $100 bills, that at least will be more likely to impact drug dealers and suchlike who have huge piles of them stashed away, and wouldn't be able to break them into smaller packages and launder them to a bank for exchange before the deadline. WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit > drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! > > bob "could use a few of those myself" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests > list > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/7a13ef1c/attachment.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 46 **************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 13:03:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:03:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Jeff, five of the six issues you listed below validated the alternative to the bloated health care bill that I proposed to the Patriotic groups, and many congressional people, several months ago, which was to spend money to find and punish fraud in the system we had, and still have. Instead of a trillion tax dollars, we spend a billion (M or L) to cure the old system. If not for fraud in hospitals, insurance, pharmaceutical companies, and huge payouts on malpractice suits, our present system could be working pretty well. Patents? Well yes, but companies have a legal right to patent their medical formulas, and thereby protect a money cow. It runs the cost of drugs higher, even generic drugs, but isn't that part of the free market system? It there a way they can have their cake and eat it too? - Tort Reform - Hospital Greed - Malpractice Insurance Costs - General Insurance Greed - Big Pharma - Patents Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/04a26316/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 13:19:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:19:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF5DCB.000091.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Except that Snopes shot itself in the foot recently. They had a relationship with trust that many people depended on, until they screwed up. Perhaps Fact Check can steer clear of knee jerk conclusions. Every time one takes a politician's word for anything, then declares it fact, one failing testability risks losing credibility. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 11:19:51 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I like the objective manner in which Fact Check addressed several > major issues. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< They're generally pretty objective, at least on the issues I've ended up using them for. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Despite the fact they have been discredited before, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I realize some people are out to discredit them as it makes it easier to spin, lie, spread mistruths, etc. However, there isn't any motive for a site that's based on fact-checking to not make their best effort to do the one thing they stake their reputation and entire business model on. Further, the claims made about them have been refuted, at least to my satisfaction, especially when you consider the source of the claims and the source's track record for truth (or lack thereof). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I believe they did the best they could do under the present > circumstances. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, it's not an absolutely clearcut issue. However, nothing as complicated as an issue like abortion has any amount of non-complexity. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] However, present circumstances still reveal that the health > care bill is flawed, and as been many times stated by people in > leadership, and at home. So we will have to make the best of what > we have, and what we know, while continuing attempts to get unclear > passages clearly defined. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't think anyone here would claim the contrary. However, while flawed, there are things about it that are good and necessary. Staying the course without it is financial suicide both individually and nationally. Time will expose those things that don't work and hopefully we can find sensible solutions to them. Of the things still left to do with regard to health care, here's how I see it: - Tort Reform - Hospital Greed - Malpractice Insurance Costs - General Insurance Greed - Big Pharma - Patents ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > "I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, > too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." > --Thomas Jefferson ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Excellent quote. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ce6f3472/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 13:21:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:21:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF5E3D.000094.02824@DON-B2514E06367> http://www.classroomtools.com/facts.htm Facts stand tests. Good classroom subject. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/6247a29b/attachment-0001.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Apr 21 13:23:00 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:23:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set battle that killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over time based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present-day Tunisia as their launching pad conquered Palermo in 831, Messina in 842, Enna in 859, Syracuse in 878, Catania in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina, in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula. In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome. Berber and Tulunid rebellions quickly led to the rise of the Fatimids taking over Aghlabid territory and Calabria was soon lost to the apanate of Italy. The Kalbid dynasty administered the Emirate of Sicily for the Fatimids by proxy from 948. By 1053 the dynasty died out in a dynastic struggle and interference from the Berber Zirids of Ifriqiya led to its break down into small fiefdoms which were captured by the Italo-Normans by 1091. Italo-Normans of course were Normans from France AKA descendents of Vikings. The Normans built castles in Italy as they did in every country they conquered. I hope this is what you were looking for. I don't have the Sardenia or Cicily books on hand to review. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 10:53:32 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Muhammad died on June 8, 632 CE. It took a while for Islam to become a major force that could throw its weight around the Mediterranean basin. The Roman empire basically imploded in 476 CE. The Byzantine empire operated a good bit longer. With the Roman empire basically kaput, I'm wondering what battle or incident found Muslims killing the 50,000 "Roman soldiers" claimed in the message below? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:48 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > > To: donkelly >; Forest Grove local interests > list > > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet [cid:image001.gif at 01CAE155.C3882630] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: image001.gif Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/3a872a43/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 13:49:40 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:49:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF47A2.5080907@jurislex.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF47A2.5080907@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <02c601cae194$2a87c230$7f974690$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning [mailto:rab at jurislex.com] > > I agree with all of your comments except for Tort Reform, which I > think is an R straw man intended to take the emphasis away from the > real problem of legal action against physicians, which primarily > comes from botched procedures and a disciplinary system created to > protect the doctors from the public!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< An excellent article and rebuttal to the position conveyed by my choice of words. I used the wrong wording to describe what I meant. As I'm not aware of the correct wording for it, let me describe it. I think that the ability for someone wrongfully harmed in a medical procedure to recover damages from more than just the doctor involved needs to be considered, especially when the doctor often isn't the only one making the decisions about the procedures involved. I think that the insurance company themselves that weighed in on how/what was covered, the hospital (due to outside pressures) that steers the doctor one way or another to/from procedures and/or their specific implementation. I also think the get out of jail free card that's been handed to certain players in the medical practice industry (like big pharma) should be promptly revoked. Additionally, all players should be given a serious look at for whether they're directly involved in the ruin of lives (possibly to better their person) rather than what they claim to actually be in business for. A good example is the following: http://www.naturalnews.com/028602_health_insurance_fast_food.html I wouldn't consider that source completely credible, but it's food for thought (no pun intended). It does reference a credible study, however. http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2009.178020v1 Sadly the study in full isn't available for free. And then here's another, less conspiratorial take on the issue revealed in the study. http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PublicHealth/19577 So, maybe what I meant was "reverse tort reform". ;) Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 13:51:38 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:51:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Christian's Behaving Badly (Was Supreme Court) In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BCF655A.9080709@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/d633e416/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 14:05:00 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:05:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Health for All [Was Supreme Court Arguments) In-Reply-To: <02c601cae194$2a87c230$7f974690$@com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF47A2.5080907@jurislex.com> <02c601cae194$2a87c230$7f974690$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF687C.7080108@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/debea8e1/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 14:09:40 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:09:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? Message-ID: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> From the Wall Street Journal earlier this week. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704508904575192430373566758.html APRIL 20, 2010 An Economy of Liars When government and business collude, it's called crony capitalism. Expect more of this from the financial reforms contemplated in Washington. By GERALD P. O'DRISCOLL JR. Free markets depend on truth telling. Prices must reflect the valuations of consumers; interest rates must be reliable guides to entrepreneurs allocating capital across time; and a firm's accounts must reflect the true value of the business. Rather than truth telling, we are becoming an economy of liars. The cause is straightforward: crony capitalism. Thomas Carlyle, the 19th century Victorian essayist, unflatteringly described classical liberalism as "anarchy plus a constable." As a romanticist, Carlyle hated the system?but described it accurately. Classical liberals, whose modern counterparts are libertarians and small-government conservatives, believed that the state's duties should be limited (1) to provide for the national defense; (2) to protect persons and property against force and fraud; and (3) to provide public goods that markets cannot. That conception of government and its duties was articulated by the Declaration of Independence and embodied in the U.S. Constitution. ODriscoll Chad Crowe ODriscoll Modern liberals have greatly expanded the list of government functions, but, aside from totalitarian regimes, I know of no modern political movement that has shortened it. While protecting citizens against force, both at home and abroad, is the government's most basic function, protecting them against fraud is closely allied. By the use of force, a thief takes by arms what is not rightfully his; he who commits fraud takes secretly what is not rightfully his. It is the difference between a robber stealing brazenly on the street and a burglar stealing by stealth at night. The result is the same: the loss of property by its owner and the disordering of civil society. And government has failed miserably to perform this basic function. Why has this happened? Financial services regulators failed to enforce laws and regulations against fraud. Bernie Madoff is the paradigmatic case and the Securities and Exchange Commission the paradigmatic failed regulator. Fraud is famously difficult to uncover, but as we now know, not Madoff's. The SEC chose to ignore the evidence brought to its attention. Banking regulators allowed a kind of mortgage dubbed "liar loans" to flourish. And so on. We have now learned of the creative way Lehman Brothers hid its leverage (how much money it was borrowing) by the use of a Repo 105. The Repo 105 meant Lehman temporarily swapped assets (such as bonds) for cash. A Repo, or repurchasing agreement, is a way to borrow money. But an accounting rule allowed Lehman to book the transaction as a sale and reduce its reported borrowings, according to a report by the court-appointed Lehman bankruptcy examiner, a former federal prosecutor, last month. Are we to believe that regulators were unaware? Last week Goldman Sachs was accused in a civil fraud suit of deceiving many clients for the benefit of another, hedge-fund operator John Paulson. The idea that multiplying rules and statutes can protect consumers and investors is surely one of the great intellectual failures of the 20th century. Any static rule will be circumvented or manipulated to evade its application. Better than multiplying rules, financial accounting should be governed by the traditional principle that one has an affirmative duty to present the true condition fairly and accurately?not withstanding what any rule might otherwise allow. And financial institutions should have a duty of care to their customers. Lawyers tell me that would get us closer to the common law approach to fraud and bad dealing. Public choice theory has identified the root causes of regulatory failure as the capture of regulators by the industry being regulated. Regulatory agencies begin to identify with the interests of the regulated rather than the public they are charged to protect. In a paper for the Federal Reserve's Jackson Hole Conference in 2008, economist Willem Buiter described "cognitive capture," by which regulators become incapable of thinking in terms other than that of the industry. On April 5 of this year, The Wall Street Journal chronicled the revolving door between industry and regulator in "Staffer One Day, Opponent the Next." Congressional committees overseeing industries succumb to the allure of campaign contributions, the solicitations of industry lobbyists, and the siren song of experts whose livelihood is beholden to the industry. The interests of industry and government become intertwined and it is regulation that binds those interests together. Business succeeds by getting along with politicians and regulators. And vice-versa through the revolving door. We call that system not the free-market, but crony capitalism. It owes more to Benito Mussolini than to Adam Smith. Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek described the price system as an information-transmission mechanism. The interplay of producers and consumers establishes prices that reflect relative valuations of goods and services. Subsidies distort prices and lead to misallocation of resources (judged by the preferences of consumers and the opportunity costs of producers). Prices no longer convey true values but distorted ones. Hayek's mentor, Ludwig von Mises, predicted in the 1930s that communism would eventually fail because it did not rely on prices to allocate resources. He predicted that the wrong goods would be produced: too many of some, too few of others. He was proven correct. In the U.S today, we are moving away from reliance on honest pricing. The federal government controls 90% of housing finance. Policies to encourage home ownership remain on the books, and more have been added. Fed policies of low interest rates result in capital being misallocated across time. Low interest rates particularly impact housing because a home is a pre-eminent long-lived asset whose value is enhanced by low interest rates. Distorted prices and interest rates no longer serve as accurate indicators of the relative importance of goods. Crony capitalism ensures the special access of protected firms and industries to capital. Businesses that stumble in the process of doing what is politically favored are bailed out. That leads to moral hazard and more bailouts in the future. And those losing money may be enabled to hide it by accounting chicanery. If we want to restore our economic freedom and recover the wonderfully productive free market, we must restore truth-telling on markets. That means the end to price-distorting subsidies, which include artificially low interest rates. No one admits to preferring crony capitalism, but an expansive regulatory state undergirds it in practice. Piling on more rules and statutes will not produce something different than it has in the past. Reliance on affirmative principles of truth-telling in accounting statements and a duty of care would be preferable. Deregulation is not some kind of libertarian mantra but an absolute necessity if we are to exit crony capitalism. /Mr. O'Driscoll is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute. He has been a vice president at Citigroup and a vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. / From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 14:26:12 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:26:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? In-Reply-To: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> References: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BCF6D74.30207@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/047914be/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 14:32:17 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:32:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? In-Reply-To: <4BCF6D74.30207@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> <4BCF6D74.30207@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF6EE1.6040208@gmail.com> Actually Bob, it was the robber barons who started crony capitalism. All I'm saying is that what's being done now is not working and not going to get better. Maybe it's time to look back at what worked? That's $0.04 now ;-) Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Sorry, Adam, but we have not had pure capitalism in this country since > the time of the robber barons pre-Teddy Roosevelt. Any way, if truth > telling is a part of capitalism, we clearly have not had it with the > financial institutions in the last 20 years or so!! > > bob "giving my $0.02 worth" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/21/2010 2:09 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> From the Wall Street Journal earlier this week. >> >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704508904575192430373566758.html >> >> APRIL 20, 2010 >> >> >> An Economy of Liars >> >> >> When government and business collude, it's called crony capitalism. >> Expect more of this from the financial reforms contemplated in >> Washington. >> >> >> By GERALD P. O'DRISCOLL JR. >> >> >> >> Free markets depend on truth telling. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 14:35:47 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:35:47 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BCF6FAE.0000A5.02824@DON-B2514E06367> I don't know how I can check it, though it would be nice to know. Apparently the Roman soldiers were pretty active between 800 and 1200, but not as invincible as they once were. I don't recall the History Channel citing the sources. So many deaths in one day would be unlikely I would think. 50,000 over time would seem more likely You brought up a good point about when did Cicily become Romans. History did not answer that one. Seems that before 800 AD Cicily was mostly a Greek Colony. Before them everyone seem to at one time or another been there. Pheonician traders, ancestors of the Palestinians, had trading posts and settlements there. Italians living there were (history suggests) later absorbed into the Greek culture. More later if I find it. Just love history. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 1:23:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set battle that killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over time based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present-day Tunisia as their launching pad conquered Palermo in 831, Messina in 842, Enna in 859, Syracuse in 878, Catania in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina, in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula. In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome. Berber and Tulunid rebellions quickly led to the rise of the Fatimids taking over Aghlabid territory and Calabria was soon lost to the apanate of Italy. The Kalbid dynasty administered the Emirate of Sicily for the Fatimids by proxy from 948. By 1053 the dynasty died out in a dynastic struggle and interference from the Berber Zirids of Ifriqiya led to its break down into small fiefdoms which were captured by the Italo-Normans by 1091. Italo-Normans of course were Normans from France AKA descendents of Vikings. The Normans built castles in Italy as they did in every country they conquered. I hope this is what you were looking for. I don't have the Sardenia or Cicily books on hand to review. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 10:53:32 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Muhammad died on June 8, 632 CE. It took a while for Islam to become a major force that could throw its weight around the Mediterranean basin. The Roman empire basically imploded in 476 CE. The Byzantine empire operated a good bit longer. With the Roman empire basically kaput, I'm wondering what battle or incident found Muslims killing the 50,000 "Roman soldiers" claimed in the message below? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:48 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > > To: donkelly >; Forest Grove local interests > list > > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet [cid:image001.gif at 01CAE155.C3882630] ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/f8ca2ad6/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 14:46:24 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:46:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF305C.7060305@jurislex.com> Message-ID: I doubt I'll ever see one live! Ed From: Bob Browning Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:05 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] New money, but not for you . . . . Here's the new $100 bill, which will of course primarily benefit drug dealers who need a larger bill to help move their profits ! ! bob "could use a few of those myself" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.newmoney.gov/newmoney/Splashpage.aspx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 14:53:43 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Good Health for All [Was Supreme Court Arguments) In-Reply-To: <4BCF687C.7080108@jurislex.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF47A2.5080907@jurislex.com> <02c601cae194$2a87c230$7f974690$@com> <4BCF687C.7080108@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <02e101cae19d$1d2cc9b0$57865d10$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning [mailto:rab at jurislex.com] > > [...] if one can demonize a totally uninvolved group, so much the > better if one is attempting to shill for big pharma and big > medicine!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Big medicine would like us to think that somehow the common man (through the help of lawyers, of course) have colluded to bring them financial ruin. That notion that all these disconnected individuals all somehow come together for this cause, but without legal ballast to carry them through the turbulent court system headwaters is, of course, ludicrous. The more likely cause of all of this, at least from the casual observer, is on the part of the insurance companies to (including, but not limited to): - twist the facts - lie - price fix - illegally impact the outcome of testimony - save their collective backsides by settling out of court on cases they *know* they'll lose in order to avoid setting precedent or giving steam to a possible class action The last in that last eeking out as possibility the worst offender of all as it means (including, but not limited to): - the settlement to the victim is likely smaller than had it been awarded by a jury of their peers - aspects of the victims case are forced silent and can in no way participate in cases of other victims of the same through the absolutely cowardly practice of gag orders - these same gag orders potentially cripple the advance of drug and/or medical practice and procedure safety resulting in the unlikelihood of a reduction of victims of the same issue in the future. - current/future victims don't have case law on their side when they step into court - insurance companies can pick and choose which claims to settle merely based on merits of the case and whether or not the victim can sustain a court battle. So, let the cases with less merit go to court and hope the victim can't make their case against you or they run out of funds to fight you thereby strengthening your position in future suits. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 14:53:43 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <02e401cae19d$1e0e7720$5a2b6560$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Jeff, five of the six issues you listed below validated the > alternative to the bloated health care bill that I proposed to > the Patriotic groups, and many congressional people, several months > ago, which was to spend money to find and punish fraud in the > system we had, and still have. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't know that the issues I listed could "fix" the system without a good measure of the issues in the current reform also being in place. One part of the problem is that people paying for insurance are essentially forced to subsidize the costs for all those without insurance. That *must* be reigned in in order to gain any sort of equilibrium or fairness in health insurance premiums. Hospitals and insurance companies are inherently greedy though so they'll have to be forced to pass those savings on and not just further line their already plush pockets. I haven't seen the alternative you proposed to those alternate groups. Send it to me privately and I'd be willing to look it over, for what that's worth. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Instead of a trillion tax dollars, we spend a billion (M or L) to > cure the old system. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That "trillion tax dollars" results in reduction of our national deficit too. The longer it's in place, the more it saves -- projected to total nearly $1.3 trillion over 20 years. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html The cost of doing nothing is staggering. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If not for fraud in hospitals, insurance, pharmaceutical companies, > and huge payouts on malpractice suits, our present system could be > working pretty well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I agree with 3 out of 4 of the issues you cite. I think one that's missed is the insane cost of malpractice insurance. I don't think the limited malpractice suits warrant such great expense. http://www.medicalmalpractice.com/National-Medical-Malpractice-Facts.cfm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_malpractice#Statistics Some interesting perspective on the matter. Would love to see some more recent articles, research, etc. though. http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/RisingCostOfMedicalMalpracticeInsurance. htm A good article on how tort reform doesn't actually fix anything, but actually just creates worse situations for those already hurt by negligence. http://honolulu.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/tort-reform-myth-ama-sta tistics-refute-doctors-flee-myth-.aspx?googleid=262558 Even more information to substantiate the idea that the payouts on malpractice suits, especially big payouts as you've eluded to, isn't the issue everyone thinks it is. http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/03/26/78097.htm My personal opinion is that any private industry that's given a mandate by the government must also then receive sufficient regulation to ensure it operates within the normal constraints of profitability. Without it, they're basically written a blank check and greed will take over to the detriment of the industry they're supposed to be serving. This would include many markets within the insurance sector -- auto and medical malpractice, to name a few. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Patents? Well yes, but companies have a legal right to patent their > medical formulas, and thereby protect a money cow. It runs the cost > of drugs higher, even generic drugs, but isn't that part of the > free market system? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Nope, it's not part of a free market system actually. Patents are actually anti-competitive as they give the recipient of the patent unfair advantage in the market for a period of time. I agree that under our current system they are granted a legal right to patent their medical formulas, but I firmly believe they should either not be allowed to do that, the amount of time it's protected should be reduced, or there should be other factors put into play to reduce the stranglehold many in the industry hold over the consumer. It's an entirely different discussion, but I think our current patent system is in major need of an overhaul. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 14:58:41 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:58:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of atheism, deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . Message-ID: <4BCF7511.6030602@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: eSkeptic-logo-2009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34800 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0006.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: there-is-no-god-cover.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26575 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0007.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: antony-flew-by-john-lawrence.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58706 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b007PB.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11234 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0009.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: av181.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9911 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0010.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: av096.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6726 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/ff6a4a8e/attachment-0011.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 15:08:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:08:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? References: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> <4BCF6D74.30207@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF7755.0000AD.02824@DON-B2514E06367> From: Western Journalism Date: 4/21/2010 2:20:17 PM Subject: Obama Administration Cracks Down on Media Access Free markets do depend on truth telling. Anything else is robbery. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/21/2010 2:26:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? Sorry, Adam, but we have not had pure capitalism in this country since the time of the robber barons pre-Teddy Roosevelt. Any way, if truth telling is a part of capitalism, we clearly have not had it with the financial institutions in the last 20 years or so!! bob "giving my $0.02 worth" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/21/2010 2:09 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: From the Wall Street Journal earlier this week. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704508904575192430373566758 html APRIL 20, 2010 An Economy of Liars When government and business collude, it's called crony capitalism. Expect more of this from the financial reforms contemplated in Washington. By GERALD P. O'DRISCOLL JR. Free markets depend on truth telling. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/0cea78f6/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 15:17:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:17:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristianLaw Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02e401cae19d$1e0e7720$5a2b6560$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF797D.0000B2.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Jeff, I would come up with workable plans if I could, and if I could I should be in government. I am not that smart about how government works, but I sting when it doesn't work. I know the theory that no one has a right to complain unless they can provide a solution. Best I can do is say get rid of the fraud in the system and a great deal of money will be saved. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/41deade2/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 15:44:36 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:44:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristianLaw Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF797D.0000B2.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02e401cae19d$1e0e7720$5a2b6560$@com> <4BCF797D.0000B2.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <02fc01cae1a4$39a91970$acfb4c50$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Jeff, I would come up with workable plans if I could, and if I could > I should be in government. I am not that smart about how government > works, but I sting when it doesn't work. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Oh, I then misunderstood when you said: "[...] five of the six issues you listed below validated the alternative to the bloated health care bill that I proposed to the Patriotic groups, and many congressional people, several months ago [...]" to be referencing something more complex. I think we're all in agreement that there's a great deal of fraud in the system, but I think many of us would agree that that's only a small part of an overall big problem that's eating this country alive with regard to healthcare. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 15:44:36 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:44:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF5DCB.000091.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF5DCB.000091.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <02f901cae1a4$3846ca50$a8d45ef0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Except that Snopes shot itself in the foot recently. They had > a relationship with trust that many people depended on, until they > screwed up. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I've had several other people say the same thing, but when asked for more information not a single one has come forward with a single link or reference to a specific thing they somehow failed on. Do you have any of that handy? FWIW, I consider snopes.com good for debunking email hoaxes, virus hoaxes, common urban legends, etc. I haven't ever given them as much credibility when it comes to ferreting out details about political issues, especially current hot-button ones unless I can find their findings corroborated at other credible sites (fact finding ones, news media, foreign, etc.) Thanks, Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 16:25:01 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:25:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <02f901cae1a4$3846ca50$a8d45ef0$@com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF5DCB.000091.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02f901cae1a4$3846ca50$a8d45ef0$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF894D.7060901@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/9b767714/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 16:29:32 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Small Business Leaders Join Senators In Calling For Financial Reform, Wall Street Accountability Message-ID: <4BCF8A5C.6050800@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/034dae47/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Attached Message Part Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/034dae47/attachment.ksh From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 21 16:52:10 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:52:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100421/dac4e667/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: empty.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/dac4e667/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kgw_printlogo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45222 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/dac4e667/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sarah-palin-alaska.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/dac4e667/attachment-0001.jpg From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 21 16:59:52 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:59:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <030701cae1ae$bcbc3310$36349930$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > [...] I note that no electronic devices are allowed. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Perhaps they're well aware of her uncanny ability to spout forth all manner of indecipherable nonsense and they wish to keep the post-gathering sound-bite swapping to a minimum? It is, after all, easier to discount claims of her saying something of particularly hilarious absurdity should it not be archived electronically to then be dissected and reenacted on SNL by Tina Fey. Jeff From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 17:07:50 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:07:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> It is not clear from the report whether the reporters 'with pads and pencils' but no recording devices will be allowed in the diner. They specifically said no media will be allowed in the diner but will be held outside in a waiting area, so my guess is no pads and paper in the diner either. Maybe they are afraid of the free press, that pesky thing that is in the first amendment. I wonder if they will allow guns.... Katie On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Bob Browning wrote > > You betcha', don't you think. I note that no electronic devices are > allowed. That seems appropriate given the fact that the Rs seem to > want to move us back to the economic and social climate of the 1870s!! > > bob "don't want none of them dirty reporters interrupting Sarah > with nasty questions that may require an answer" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Local News > > > No cameras or cell phones at Sarah Palin fundraiser > > > by Eric Adams and KGW Staff > > kgw.com > > Posted on April 21, 2010 at 4:10 PM > > Updated today at 4:17 PM > > > EUGENE, Ore. -- Sarah Palin comes to Eugene on Friday for a Lane > County Republican Party fundraiser. > > A GOP spokesperson said security would be tight at the President > Lincoln Fundraiser and that no cell phones or reporters would be > allowed inside while she speaks to a sold-out crowd. > > The event was scheduled nearly a year ago in order to raise > election year funds for Lane County Republicans, according to the > Associated Press. Typically, the Lincoln fundraiser comes nearer to > Lincoln's birthday, in February, but a spokesperson for the GOP > said this year's event was arranged to accommodate Palin's schedule. > > Palin's speech sold out long ago. It takes place at the Hilton > Eugene, which holds 750 people, the AP reported. Lane County > Republicans got first choice at attendance. Extra tickets were then > distributed to Republicans in neighboring counties or the rest of > the state, according to the AP. > > The Eugene Register Guard reported that Lane County Republicans > have paid $17,500 to the agency that arranges Palin's speaking > events. However, the party's chairman has not disclosed the > official sum Palin was to be paid. > > On Thursday, a spokesperson told KGW that media would be allowed to > wait in an area away from the dinner. Reporters could not bring in > their cell phones, bluetooths, PDAs, netbooks or recorders. Pens, > pencils and paper were welcomed. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 17:08:09 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:08:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <030701cae1ae$bcbc3310$36349930$@com> References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <030701cae1ae$bcbc3310$36349930$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF9369.6040607@gmail.com> My god, how silly! A private organization setting rules for what they want at their event! Some nerve! Don't they know that they have to do what everyone else wants and not what they want! You would think that we had freedom or something............... Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Bob, > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] I note that no electronic devices are allowed. [...] >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > Perhaps they're well aware of her uncanny ability to spout forth all manner > of indecipherable nonsense and they wish to keep the post-gathering > sound-bite swapping to a minimum? It is, after all, easier to discount > claims of her saying something of particularly hilarious absurdity should it > not be archived electronically to then be dissected and reenacted on SNL by > Tina Fey. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 17:36:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:36:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme CourtArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristianLaw Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF59F0.000084.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02e401cae19d$1e0e7720$5a2b6560$@com> <4BCF797D.0000B2.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02fc01cae1a4$39a91970$acfb4c50$@com> Message-ID: <4BCF99FB.0000B7.02824@DON-B2514E06367> In addition to fraud that needs to be exposed at every opening, there is also truth to be told. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp If I had even one good idea that congress would accept and work on, just working on it would still drive me crazy. There is just too much emotion there for objective thinking to in every case be possible. I hope something can be done by someone, or some group in power, whom is/are credible enough for us to believe in, and trust.........someone with a reasonable plan to restore America. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/21/2010 3:44:45 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme CourtArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristianLaw Student Group Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Jeff, I would come up with workable plans if I could, and if I could > I should be in government. I am not that smart about how government > works, but I sting when it doesn't work. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Oh, I then misunderstood when you said: "[...] five of the six issues you listed below validated the alternative to the bloated health care bill that I proposed to the Patriotic groups, and many congressional people, several months ago [...]" to be referencing something more complex. I think we're all in agreement that there's a great deal of fraud in the system, but I think many of us would agree that that's only a small part of an overall big problem that's eating this country alive with regard to healthcare. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/6b37c771/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 17:41:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:41:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF5DCB.000091.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <02f901cae1a4$3846ca50$a8d45ef0$@com> <4BCF894D.7060901@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF9B27.0000BA.02824@DON-B2514E06367> You saying that Snoops and Fact Check are operated by preachers? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/21/2010 4:25:11 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Yeah, don't you think that anything this hot would show up somewhere other than on WND and sites derevitive of the same ? ! ? ! bob "why, O why, would a 'pastor' choose to lie in his writings?" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/21/2010 3:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/15b950e5/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 17:47:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:47:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Small Business Leaders Join Senators In Calling For Financial Reform, Wall Street Accountability References: <4BCF8A5C.6050800@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF9C9D.0000BF.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Precisely Bob. I am seeing these same calls from different groups several times a day, perhaps a dozen times today alone. If you discover whom is listening that can help, we should write to that person. I heard from Representative Wyden this morning, but he is off on another personal flight of fancy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/21/2010 4:29:56 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Small Business Leaders Join Senators In Calling For Financial Reform, Wall Street Accountability FYI bob "we should do something - anything ? ! ? !" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Small Business Leaders Join Senators In Calling For Financial Reform, Wall Street Accountability Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:08:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Business for Shared Prosperity Reply-To: businessforsharedprosperity at mail.democracyinaction.org To: rab at jurislex.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/79bf5f74/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 18:28:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:28:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch Message-ID: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Maddow on live TV likened the Tea Party to the Oklahoma City Bomber. How far will they go to discredit the Tea Party? I suspect we have not seen that far yet. alerts at news.worldnetdaily.com; From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 18:51:03 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:51:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of atheism, deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCF7511.6030602@jurislex.com> References: <4BCF7511.6030602@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <42B9EA1F-770F-4231-8EF1-B3F5B97670D7@teleport.com> On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > You may want to show this article to those of your class or family > who may wish learn more on how to think critically. bob "I'm a > seeker" browning > > > > Wednesday, April 21st, 2010 | ISSN 1556-5696 Interesting! And sadly familiar. The business of "deathbed conversions" is a very old evangelical industry. Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense," was slandered and vilified all his life by clergymen, and after his death one of these pious gentlemen claimed that he had undergone a deathbed conversion-- a story stoutly denied by his friends. The National Review, under the guidance of Bill Buckley, also carried stories of "deathbed conversions" of notable freethinkers. It seems it is just not permissible for any person to maintain a calm confidence in the power of human reason, even up to the last moment of life. To allow such a person to escape unconverted would somehow undermine the authority of the church-- or something. Sad, of course, that Flew (if indeed he wrote any part of the book) would succumb to the arguments he had brilliantly dissected when he was in full possession of his powers. And appalling if his life and thinking was falsified near the end by cynical religious opportunists. > Read this eSkeptic in full splendor at > www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-04-21 > > The Remarkable Story of Professor Antony Flew ? > The World?s Most Notorious Atheist Who Changed His Mind > > > On April 8, 2010, the British philosopher Antony Flew passed away > after a long life in academic philosophy, having taught at Oxford, > Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities. For most of his career > Professor Flew was one of the world?s most outspoken and prominent > atheists, until he changed his mind in the closing years of his > life, apparently impressed by the arguments from Intelligent Design > creationists, most notably with regard to the complexity of DNA. In > 2004, Flew co-authored a book entitled There is a God: How the > World?s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. The co-author was > Roy Abraham Varghese, who became the center of controversy when the > New York Times published an article alleging that Flew was in > serious mental decline and that the book ? and by implication the > conversion itself ? was perhaps contrived or highly influenced by > Varghese. > > In this week?s eSkeptic, we present the following article by > Kenneth Grubbs, which was written before Flew died and aims to get > at the truth of Flew?s conversion. Kenneth is a long-time skeptic > and freelance writer living with his family in Southeast Michigan. > Kenneth also writes for the free-thinking website Isacc?s Rainbow. > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 18:55:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:55:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the TeaParty ? ? ? ? References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <030701cae1ae$bcbc3310$36349930$@com> <4BCF9369.6040607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BCFAC9B.0000E8.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Jeff, If I were in government, and brain washed to think like government, I just might find solace in deniability. Adam, I received another contact today from another sub group of Patriots called CEI. By referring to them as sub groups, I mean there must be at least a hundred sub groups in all, like one million mom's, one million dads, G&C, Patriots, Don't tread on me (a bit militant they), etc. voices at israelunitycoalition.org; With their initials one could refer to them as ICO In any case they present a grass roots platform that I mostly support. Don PS: Hecklers?NOT. Some of them don't like her, but they won't heckle or create a large disturbance. The Coffee Party will be there, and I am not so sure of their plans. They talk conciliation, but there is talk they are financed by some members of government. At least they hint as much. They seem to be well financed it appears. -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 4/21/2010 5:08:18 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the TeaParty ? ? ? ? My god, how silly! A private organization setting rules for what they want at their event! Some nerve! Don't they know that they have to do what everyone else wants and not what they want! You would think that we had freedom or something............... Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Bob, > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] I note that no electronic devices are allowed. [...] >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > Perhaps they're well aware of her uncanny ability to spout forth all manner > of indecipherable nonsense and they wish to keep the post-gathering > sound-bite swapping to a minimum? It is, after all, easier to discount > claims of her saying something of particularly hilarious absurdity should it > not be archived electronically to then be dissected and reenacted on SNL by > Tina Fey. > > Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/878753c7/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 19:01:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:01:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ?? ? ? References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BCFADFD.0000EB.02824@DON-B2514E06367> I don't think the R's want to move us back to the 1870's. Some R's are at times referred to as Progressives. Doesn't sound all that backward to me. Sounds a little like Roosevelt though. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/21/2010 4:52:29 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ?? ? ? You betcha', don't you think. I note that no electronic devices are allowed. That seems appropriate given the fact that the Rs seem to want to move us back to the economic and social climate of the 1870s!! bob "don't want none of them dirty reporters interrupting Sarah with nasty questions that may require an answer" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Local News No cameras or cell phones at Sarah Palin fundraiser by Eric Adams and KGW Staff kgw.com Posted on April 21, 2010 at 4:10 PM Updated today at 4:17 PM EUGENE, Ore. -- Sarah Palin comes to Eugene on Friday for a Lane County Republican Party fundraiser. A GOP spokesperson said security would be tight at the President Lincoln Fundraiser and that no cell phones or reporters would be allowed inside while she speaks to a sold-out crowd. The event was scheduled nearly a year ago in order to raise election year funds for Lane County Republicans, according to the Associated Press. Typically, the Lincoln fundraiser comes nearer to Lincoln's birthday, in February, but a spokesperson for the GOP said this year's event was arranged to accommodate Palin's schedule. Palin's speech sold out long ago. It takes place at the Hilton Eugene, which holds 750 people, the AP reported. Lane County Republicans got first choice at attendance. Extra tickets were then distributed to Republicans in neighboring counties or the rest of the state, according to the AP. The Eugene Register Guard reported that Lane County Republicans have paid $17,500 to the agency that arranges Palin's speaking events. However, the party's chairman has not disclosed the official sum Palin was to be paid. On Thursday, a spokesperson told KGW that media would be allowed to wait in an area away from the dinner. Reporters could not bring in their cell phones bluetooths, PDAs, netbooks or recorders. Pens, pencils and paper were welcomed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/210b170f/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 45222 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/210b170f/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 17417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/210b170f/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/210b170f/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 19:13:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:13:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of atheism, deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . References: <4BCF7511.6030602@jurislex.com> <42B9EA1F-770F-4231-8EF1-B3F5B97670D7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCFB0B9.0000F8.02824@DON-B2514E06367> One source dependable to the end was his wife. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 6:50:51 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of atheism deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > You may want to show this article to those of your class or family > who may wish learn more on how to think critically. bob "I'm a > seeker" browning > > > > Wednesday, April 21st, 2010 | ISSN 1556-5696 Interesting! And sadly familiar. The business of "deathbed conversions" is a very old evangelical industry. Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense," was slandered and vilified all his life by clergymen, and after his death one of these pious gentlemen claimed that he had undergone a deathbed conversion-- a story stoutly denied by his friends. The National Review, under the guidance of Bill Buckley, also carried stories of "deathbed conversions" of notable freethinkers. It seems it is just not permissible for any person to maintain a calm confidence in the power of human reason, even up to the last moment of life. To allow such a person to escape unconverted would somehow undermine the authority of the church-- or something. Sad, of course, that Flew (if indeed he wrote any part of the book) would succumb to the arguments he had brilliantly dissected when he was in full possession of his powers. And appalling if his life and thinking was falsified near the end by cynical religious opportunists. > Read this eSkeptic in full splendor at > www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-04-21 > > The Remarkable Story of Professor Antony Flew ? > The World?s Most Notorious Atheist Who Changed His Mind > > > On April 8, 2010, the British philosopher Antony Flew passed away > after a long life in academic philosophy, having taught at Oxford, > Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities. For most of his career > Professor Flew was one of the world?s most outspoken and prominent > atheists, until he changed his mind in the closing years of his > life, apparently impressed by the arguments from Intelligent Design > creationists, most notably with regard to the complexity of DNA. In > 2004, Flew co-authored a book entitled There is a God: How the > World?s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. The co-author was > Roy Abraham Varghese, who became the center of controversy when the > New York Times published an article alleging that Flew was in > serious mental decline and that the book ? and by implication the > conversion itself ? was perhaps contrived or highly influenced by > Varghese. > > In this week?s eSkeptic, we present the following article by > Kenneth Grubbs, which was written before Flew died and aims to get > at the truth of Flew?s conversion. Kenneth is a long-time skeptic > and freelance writer living with his family in Southeast Michigan. > Kenneth also writes for the free-thinking website Isacc?s Rainbow. > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/95dfc3ff/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 19:51:06 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:51:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of atheism, deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BCFB0B9.0000F8.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCF7511.6030602@jurislex.com> <42B9EA1F-770F-4231-8EF1-B3F5B97670D7@teleport.com> <4BCFB0B9.0000F8.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <74F37E0A-42EC-4191-BFBE-163069A111BE@teleport.com> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > One source dependable to the end was his wife. Yep. She sounds like a true lifemate. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/21/2010 6:50:51 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A fascinating read on the intersection of > atheism > deism, and Christian apologists . . . . . . . > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> You may want to show this article to those of your class or family >> who may wish learn more on how to think critically. bob "I'm a >> seeker" browning >> >> >> >> Wednesday, April 21st, 2010 | ISSN 1556-5696 > Interesting! And sadly familiar. The business of "deathbed > conversions" is a very old evangelical industry. Thomas Paine, author > of "Common Sense," was slandered and vilified all his life by > clergymen, and after his death one of these pious gentlemen claimed > that he had undergone a deathbed conversion-- a story stoutly denied > by his friends. The National Review, under the guidance of Bill > Buckley, also carried stories of "deathbed conversions" of notable > freethinkers. It seems it is just not permissible for any person to > maintain a calm confidence in the power of human reason, even up to > the last moment of life. To allow such a person to escape > unconverted would somehow undermine the authority of the church-- or > something. Sad, of course, that Flew (if indeed he wrote any part of > the book) would succumb to the arguments he had brilliantly dissected > when he was in full possession of his powers. And appalling if his > life and thinking was falsified near the end by cynical religious > opportunists. >> Read this eSkeptic in full splendor at >> www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-04-21 >> >> The Remarkable Story of Professor Antony Flew ? >> The World?s Most Notorious Atheist Who Changed His Mind >> >> >> On April 8, 2010, the British philosopher Antony Flew passed away >> after a long life in academic philosophy, having taught at Oxford, >> Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities. For most of his career >> Professor Flew was one of the world?s most outspoken and prominent >> atheists, until he changed his mind in the closing years of his >> life, apparently impressed by the arguments from Intelligent Design >> creationists, most notably with regard to the complexity of DNA. In >> 2004, Flew co-authored a book entitled There is a God: How the >> World?s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. The co-author was >> Roy Abraham Varghese, who became the center of controversy when the >> New York Times published an article alleging that Flew was in >> serious mental decline and that the book ? and by implication the >> conversion itself ? was perhaps contrived or highly influenced by >> Varghese. >> >> In this week?s eSkeptic, we present the following article by >> Kenneth Grubbs, which was written before Flew died and aims to get >> at the truth of Flew?s conversion. Kenneth is a long-time skeptic >> and freelance writer living with his family in Southeast Michigan. >> Kenneth also writes for the free-thinking website Isacc?s Rainbow. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 20:15:03 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:15:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <53A21F12-B551-4ED3-9071-5EF29DF053A4@verizon.net> Cute comment. More likely it is being orchestrated, like a lot of events are orchestrated to benefit the public image of the star attraction. I believe that the Tiger Woods return to the professional golf circuit was arranged the same way. David On Apr 21, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > ... > > Maybe they are afraid of the free press, that pesky thing that is in the first amendment. > I wonder if they will allow guns.... > > Katie > > > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Bob Browning wrote >> >> ... >> bob "don't want none of them dirty reporters interrupting Sarah with nasty questions that may require an answer" browning >> ... >> On Thursday, a spokesperson told KGW that media would be allowed to wait in an area away from the dinner. Reporters could not bring in their cell phones, bluetooths, PDAs, netbooks or recorders. Pens, pencils and paper were welcomed. From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 20:33:33 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:33:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <53A21F12-B551-4ED3-9071-5EF29DF053A4@verizon.net> References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> <53A21F12-B551-4ED3-9071-5EF29DF053A4@verizon.net> Message-ID: I liked Adam's comment about it being their party to run it as privately as they wish because that is certainly the case. I just hope they are not expecting anybody to think that they are the party of transparency or openness. Katie On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:15 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Cute comment. > > More likely it is being orchestrated, like a lot of events are > orchestrated to benefit the public image of the star attraction. > > I believe that the Tiger Woods return to the professional golf > circuit was arranged the same way. > > David > > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> ... >> >> Maybe they are afraid of the free press, that pesky thing that is >> in the first amendment. >> I wonder if they will allow guns.... >> >> Katie >> >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Bob Browning wrote >>> >>> ... >>> bob "don't want none of them dirty reporters interrupting Sarah >>> with nasty questions that may require an answer" browning > >>> ... >>> On Thursday, a spokesperson told KGW that media would be allowed >>> to wait in an area away from the dinner. Reporters could not >>> bring in their cell phones, bluetooths, PDAs, netbooks or >>> recorders. Pens, pencils and paper were welcomed. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 20:33:59 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:33:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? In-Reply-To: <4BCF7755.0000AD.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCF6994.1060805@gmail.com> <4BCF6D74.30207@jurislex.com> <4BCF7755.0000AD.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Reliance on affirmative principles of truth-telling in accounting statements and a duty of care would be preferable. Deregulation is not some kind of libertarian mantra but an absolute necessity if we are to exit crony capitalism. Truth in pricing free from subsidy is a positive good thing. A move toward a free market and away from Crony Capitalism is a positive good thing. Full cost pricing of imports, full cost pricing of extractive resources, full cost pricing of pollution, and full cost pricing of out sourcing would all be positive good things. Instead, we have our financial system subsidizing imports, our military might subsidizing access to resources, our legal system subsidizing pollution, and our government subsidizing out sourcing. A real problem. David > Actually Bob, it was the robber barons who started crony capitalism. > > All I'm saying is that what's being done now is not working and not going to get better. Maybe it's time to look back at what worked? > > That's $0.04 now ;-) > > Adam > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 3:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > > From: Western Journalism > Subject: Obama Administration Cracks Down on Media Access > > Free markets do depend on truth telling. Anything else is robbery. > > Don > > From: Bob Browning > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Have we abandoned Capitalism? > > Sorry, Adam, but we have not had pure capitalism in this country since the time of the robber barons pre-Teddy Roosevelt. Any way, if truth telling is a part of capitalism, we clearly have not had it with the financial institutions in the last 20 years or so!! > > bob "giving my $0.02 worth" browning > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > On 4/21/2010 2:09 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > From the Wall Street Journal earlier this week. > An Economy of Liars > > When government and business collude, it's called crony capitalism. Expect more of this from the financial reforms contemplated in Washington. From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 20:41:31 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:41:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They may not have been around for the same length of time, but the intensity of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge certainly held a local record for vicious behavior. The problem may not be the particular "faith" of the group, as their fervor in spreading it. Moderates and the "laid back" members don't get onto the podium for the medals in the violence category. That position goes to the hard core members. David I would expect that On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > ... > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > ... > Holly From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 20:44:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:44:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court ArgumentsTurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCF5E3D.000094.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <017501cae0e3$70828380$51878a80$@com> <4BCE47F9.000054.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cae128$f4ce1b50$de6a51f0$@com> <4BCF30C4.000033.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <027b01cae17f$13279da0$3976d8e0$@com> <4BCF5E3D.000094.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <3C54E7CC-B5BE-4147-A76E-741AB4098134@verizon.net> Don't lose the bookmark for that one. We may need to refer to it in the future. David On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:21 PM, donkelly wrote: > http://www.classroomtools.com/facts.htm > > Facts stand tests. > > Good classroom subject. > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 21:02:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:02:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the Tea Party ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> <53A21F12-B551-4ED3-9071-5EF29DF053A4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1C8482BC-7E74-4DEB-BF5A-0DBDE6A7471E@verizon.net> I doubt that that is on the agenda. Right now, they get free press by keeping the press at arm's length. And their base is convinced that the mainstream media is liberal. So, keeping them out may be a self serving political move. David P.S. IMHO, I expect that for the Conservative political group, "liberal media" and "mainstream media" are interchangeable terms. And that "conservative media" and "honest media" are interchangeable terms. The size of the market served, or the quality of the reporting isn't part of the consideration. So, I would predict that a small liberal media outlet like OPB would be considered as proof that the mainstream media has a liberal bias. While a huge conservative organization like FOX media would not be considered as part of the mainstream. On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I liked Adam's comment about it being their party to run it as privately as they wish because that is certainly the case. I just hope they are not expecting anybody to think that they are the party of transparency or openness. > > Katie From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 21:41:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:41:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the TeaParty ? ? ? ? References: <4BCF8FAA.2010402@jurislex.com> <586581A6-9CF2-4E17-98D1-13EECF8F21B1@verizon.net> <53A21F12-B551-4ED3-9071-5EF29DF053A4@verizon.net> <1C8482BC-7E74-4DEB-BF5A-0DBDE6A7471E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCFD376.0000FF.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Combination of what is said here. In meeting anywhere, they know another group or two will be there to bait them, and in any possible way make them look bad. That's the Coffee Party line anyway. Also they know ACORN reps are likely to show (for what?), and almost certainly CAIR will show, and count 100% on Astroturf. So I know their plan is to accomplish something positive, and avoid getting dragged into garbage. Otherwise they now knowing what for sure is coming, besides what they expect, they have to politely wing it. So we'll see. Ideas anyone? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/21/2010 9:04:06 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] What are they afraid of - hecklers from the TeaParty ? ? ? ? I doubt that that is on the agenda. Right now, they get free press by keeping the press at arm's length. And their base is convinced that the mainstream media is liberal. So, keeping them out may be a self serving political move. David P.S. IMHO, I expect that for the Conservative political group, "liberal media" and "mainstream media" are interchangeable terms. And that conservative media" and "honest media" are interchangeable terms. The size of the market served, or the quality of the reporting isn't part of the consideration. So, I would predict that a small liberal media outlet like OPB would be considered as proof that the mainstream media has a liberal bias. While a huge conservative organization like FOX media would not be considered as part of the mainstream. On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I liked Adam's comment about it being their party to run it as privately as they wish because that is certainly the case. I just hope they are not expecting anybody to think that they are the party of transparency or openness. > > Katie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/54e50a7d/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 21:50:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:50:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <296C754F-2F42-493F-84D9-91448943FC73@verizon.net> 50,000 soldiers killed in on day is pretty brutal, if it happened. Likely, it couldn't happen. It takes too many killers or equipment that was not available to them. The Sobibor camp murdered 250,000 in eighteen months. Average of less than 600 per day. The 1940-1945 murders at Auschwitz did happen. 1.1 million people died. None were soldiers. Average of less than 1000 per day. The 13-15 February 1945 bombing of Dresden did happen. 25,000 people ( at least ) died. Few were soldiers. August 6, 1945 did happen. 70,000 people died that day in Hiroshima. But, took an atomic bomb to accomplish the feat. David On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set battle that killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over time based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ --Mike From hannah at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 22:30:16 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:30:16 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And they said that those years of Latin would never help me! 51 years later and I guessed right! (Can't quite say I knew because I wasn't positive, but come to find out...) Glad you knew, Walt. On 4/21/10 2:52 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: > Laus Deo means "praise be to God." From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 21 22:33:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:33:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> Well, I just guessed, too... but confirmed it before answering... WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > And they said that those years of Latin would never help me! > 51 years later and I guessed right! > (Can't quite say I knew because I wasn't positive, but come to find > out...) > Glad you knew, Walt. > > > On 4/21/10 2:52 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: >> Laus Deo means "praise be to God." > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 23:42:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:42:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Killed in battle References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <296C754F-2F42-493F-84D9-91448943FC73@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCFEFAF.000106.02824@DON-B2514E06367> When Hannable crossed the Alps, Rome had built a large army, but according to the following, Hannibal killed or captured 50 to 70 thousand Romans in just one battle. Exurpt: Due to these brilliant tactics Hannibal with much inferior numbers managed to surround and destroy all but a small remnant of this force. Depending upon the source it is estimated that 50000-70000 Romans were killed or captured at Cannae.[13] Among the dead were the Roman consul Lucius Aemilius Paullusas well as two consuls for the preceding year two quaestors twenty-nine out of the forty-eight military tribunes and an additional eighty senators (at a time when the Roman Senate comprised no more than 300 men this constituted 25%?30% of the governing body). This makes the Battle of Cannae one of the most catastrophic defeats in the history of Ancient Rome and one of the bloodiest battles in all of human history (in terms of the number of lives lost within a single day).[35] After Cannae the Romans were very hesitant to confront Hannibal in pitched battle preferring instead to weaken him by attrition relying on their advantages of interior lines supply and manpower. As a result Hannibal fought no more major battles in Italy for the rest of the war. It is believed his refusal to bring the war to Rome itself was due to a lack of commitment from Carthage in terms of men money and materiel ? principally siege equipment. Whatever the reason the choice prompted Maharbal to say"Hannibal you know how to gain a victory but not how to use one." [36] NOTE: With spears, knives and swords to battle with, they were nevertheless quite efficient. -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/21/2010 9:51:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group 50,000 soldiers killed in on day is pretty brutal, if it happened. Likely, it couldn't happen. It takes too many killers or equipment that was not available to them. The Sobibor camp murdered 250,000 in eighteen months. Average of less than 600 per day. The 1940-1945 murders at Auschwitz did happen. 1.1 million people died. None were soldiers. Average of less than 1000 per day. The 13-15 February 1945 bombing of Dresden did happen. 25,000 people ( at least ) died. Few were soldiers. August 6, 1945 did happen. 70,000 people died that day in Hiroshima. But, took an atomic bomb to accomplish the feat. David On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set battle that killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over time based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/eb5a6772/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 23:47:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:47:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Correct. Good for you all. You didn't forget all of the Latin you learned, though it was a long time ago. Now does anyone know where those two words appear? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 10:33:24 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with Well, I just guessed, too... but confirmed it before answering... WW On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > And they said that those years of Latin would never help me! > 51 years later and I guessed right! > (Can't quite say I knew because I wasn't positive, but come to find > out...) > Glad you knew, Walt. > > > On 4/21/10 2:52 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: >> Laus Deo means "praise be to God." > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100421/15811020/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 00:05:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:05:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCFF51C.000112.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Pol Pot brought in a Communist army and promises to fundamentally change the way government served the people in Cambodia. First he sent everyone in town who did not have a job out to the country with orders to grow food. The he murdered intellectuals, teachers, doctors, etc.''''''doubt there were any lawyers'''''''', former army men, to deprive the country of leadership. By the time he was done killing, estimated half the people of Cambodia were dead. If killing citizens was the measure of his success in fundamentally changing how things were done, he was successful. He followed pretty much the same plan as Castro did earlier in Cuba, by keeping Che Guevera busy killing people every day of the week until thousands were dead. Che loved his work according to people who escaped his wrath. And Americans honor Che by wearing shirts with his picture on them? Pretty cool heh? Estimates were up to half, depending on who reported, but probably no one knows how many died. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/21/2010 8:42:43 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group They may not have been around for the same length of time, but the intensity of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge certainly held a local record for vicious behavior. The problem may not be the particular "faith" of the group, as their fervor in spreading it. Moderates and the "laid back" members don't get onto the podium for the medals in the violence category. That position goes to the hard core members. David I would expect that On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > ... > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological group that has been connected with the causes of so much human suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > ... > Holly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/e66a51e1/attachment-0001.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 00:08:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:08:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Now does anyone know where those two words appear? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< On one side of the cap on the Washington Monument. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 00:25:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:25:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> Message-ID: <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Good Jeff, 555 ft 8 inches above ground level. On top so only God and George can see it, seems it was done that way for that reason. It demonstrates that consideration of God was part of the considerations in government. Nowhere in the constitution does it mandate separation of church and state. The founders were aware from past experience that a church running a government was not good. America would grow more user friendly for people than in any country they came from. Anyway, good show. I wonder how many school kids know that information, and what it means. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 12:08:41 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Now does anyone know where those two words appear? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< On one side of the cap on the Washington Monument. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/5931806e/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 01:46:37 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:46:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Good Jeff, 555 ft 8 inches above ground level. On top so only God > and George can see it, seems it was done that way for that reason. > It demonstrates that consideration of God was part of the > considerations in government. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That aluminum cap was also placed on the monument over a century after Washington died. So, it's not like the use of those words on a monument give any credibility to this nation being founded on christianity (more on that later). Further, there isn't any documentation I can find about who ordered the particular choice of words inscribed on the four sides of the aluminum cap. It could just as easily have not been a "consideration of government" that resulted in it. Interestingly, the other three sides are comprised of the names of those involved at the time of its completion so are they just as or more important than those two words on a single side? I find it curious that supposedly only god and George could see it up there. If viewing it was reserved for those two, shouldn't it have been placed (hidden) such that no human eye could be cast upon it? Even the phrase "praise be to god" doesn't actually say anything about a christian god, nor of a theist god. It could just as easily be referring to a deist god or the notion of a supernatural power outside of our understanding. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Nowhere in the constitution does it mandate separation of > church and state. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No, it certainly doesn't. But the first amendment does a pretty thorough job of mandating it. Additionally, it's one of the more tested aspects of the first amendment and has stood up well over time. There's *way* more info than could be reasonably imparted in a single email available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_St ates So, about our country being established on christianity. The Treaty of Tripoli does a pretty thorough job of addressing that with the following: "... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11 An excellent bit of writing about the matter of our nation, religion, and our founding fathers. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen Where exactly were you headed with the original question, anyway? Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 05:20:42 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:20:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> This is a bit more refreshing, someone who doesn't support the Tea Party but is fair and objective about it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/17/AR2010041702652.html Adam donkelly wrote: > Maddow on live TV likened the Tea Party to the Oklahoma City Bomber. > > How far will they go to discredit the Tea Party? > > I suspect we have not seen that far yet. > > alerts at news.worldnetdaily.com; > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 05:38:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:38:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> I had to laugh at a quote from one of the tea partyers: 'Paul Butterfield, 48, an engineer from Ontario, N.Y., said: "We've achieved equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women, equal rights for gays....' I suspect that if he was black he would have been identified as one, and I doubt that with a name like Paul he is a woman, straight or gay is harder to tell but statistically he is likely to be straight. So for a likely white, straight, male to so heartily declare that we all have equal rights makes me chuckle. He must have missed the whole Lilly Ledbetter fight last year for sure. Katie On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:20 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > This is a bit more refreshing, someone who doesn't support the Tea > Party > but is fair and objective about it. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/17/ > AR2010041702652.html > > Adam > > donkelly wrote: >> Maddow on live TV likened the Tea Party to the Oklahoma City Bomber. >> >> How far will they go to discredit the Tea Party? >> >> I suspect we have not seen that far yet. >> >> alerts at news.worldnetdaily.com; >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 08:07:40 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:07:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks Katie for a great chuckle this morning! I'm sure in Paul Butterfield's mind: all blacks are equal, all women are equal, all gays are equal, so what's the problem - the white straight males are equal too and should be in charge of all the other "equals". -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:38 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch > I had to laugh at a quote from one of the tea partyers: > 'Paul Butterfield, 48, an engineer from Ontario, N.Y., said: "We've > achieved equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women, equal > rights for gays....' > > I suspect that if he was black he would have been identified as one, > and I doubt that with a name like Paul he is a woman, straight or gay > is harder to tell but statistically he is likely to be straight. > So for a likely white, straight, male to so heartily declare that we > all have equal rights makes me chuckle. > He must have missed the whole Lilly Ledbetter fight last year for sure. > > Katie > > > > On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:20 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> This is a bit more refreshing, someone who doesn't support the Tea >> Party >> but is fair and objective about it. >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/17/ >> AR2010041702652.html >> >> Adam >> >> donkelly wrote: >>> Maddow on live TV likened the Tea Party to the Oklahoma City Bomber. >>> >>> How far will they go to discredit the Tea Party? >>> >>> I suspect we have not seen that far yet. >>> >>> alerts at news.worldnetdaily.com; >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 08:06:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:06:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Killed in battle In-Reply-To: <4BCFEFAF.000106.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <296C754F-2F42-493F-84D9-91448943FC73@verizon.net> <4BCFEFAF.000106.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2CEF3ADA-8006-4F7F-BFD2-E3729E124D71@teleport.com> Hannibal also had good archers and slingers, who could be murderously effective against crowded and disorganized troops from a safe distance. And we haven't mentioned their war elephants, which could be as dangerous to the home team as to the enemies. On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > When Hannable crossed the Alps, Rome had built a large army, but > according > to the following, Hannibal killed or captured 50 to 70 thousand > Romans in > just one battle. > > Exurpt: > > Due to these brilliant tactics Hannibal with much inferior numbers > managed > to surround and destroy all but a small remnant of this force. > Depending > upon the source it is estimated that 50000-70000 Romans were killed or > captured at Cannae.[13] > > Among the dead were the Roman consul Lucius Aemilius Paullusas well > as two > consuls for the preceding year two quaestors twenty-nine out of the > forty-eight military tribunes and an additional eighty senators (at > a time > when the Roman Senate comprised no more than 300 men this constituted > 25%?30% of the governing body). > > This makes the Battle of Cannae one of the most catastrophic > defeats in the > history of Ancient Rome and one of the bloodiest battles in all of > human > history (in terms of the number of lives lost within a single day). > [35] > > After Cannae the Romans were very hesitant to confront Hannibal in > pitched > battle preferring instead to weaken him by attrition relying on their > advantages of interior lines supply and manpower. > > As a result Hannibal fought no more major battles in Italy for the > rest of > the war. It is believed his refusal to bring the war to Rome itself > was due > to a lack of commitment from Carthage in terms of men money and > materiel ? > principally siege equipment. Whatever the reason the choice prompted > Maharbal to say"Hannibal you know how to gain a victory but not how > to use > one." [36] > > NOTE: With spears, knives and swords to battle with, they were > nevertheless > quite efficient. > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: David Morelli > Date: 4/21/2010 9:51:36 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments > TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > 50,000 soldiers killed in on day is pretty brutal, if it happened. > Likely, > it couldn't happen. It takes too many killers or equipment that > was not > available to them. > > The Sobibor camp murdered 250,000 in eighteen months. Average of > less than > 600 per day. > > The 1940-1945 murders at Auschwitz did happen. 1.1 million people > died. > None were soldiers. Average of less than 1000 per day. > > The 13-15 February 1945 bombing of Dresden did happen. 25,000 > people ( at > least ) died. Few were soldiers. > > August 6, 1945 did happen. 70,000 people died that day in > Hiroshima. But, > took an atomic bomb to accomplish the feat. > > David > > > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > >> OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set >> battle that > killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over > time > based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, > 733 and > 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ again...are > Sicilians Roman soldiers?...just wondering], 859, 877, 886, 902)? >> --Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 08:07:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:07:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Supposedly, they are engraved on the aluminum tip of the Washington Monument. I imagine a bit of Googling might find the origin of the phrase. On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:47 PM, donkelly wrote: > Correct. Good for you all. You didn't forget all of the Latin you > learned, > though it was a long time ago. > > Now does anyone know where those two words appear? > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/21/2010 10:33:24 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with > > Well, I just guessed, too... but confirmed it before answering... > WW > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> And they said that those years of Latin would never help me! >> 51 years later and I guessed right! >> (Can't quite say I knew because I wasn't positive, but come to find >> out...) >> Glad you knew, Walt. >> >> >> On 4/21/10 2:52 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: >>> Laus Deo means "praise be to God." >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 08:15:32 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:15:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5431EC06-7FF6-4C70-8F78-A679B16956D9@teleport.com> Yep... No doubt all those "others" are "equal" in his mind-- equal to each other, that is, equally inferior to HIM. WW On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Thanks Katie for a great chuckle this morning! > > I'm sure in Paul Butterfield's mind: all blacks are equal, all > women are > equal, all gays are equal, so what's the problem - the white > straight males > are equal too and should be in charge of all the other "equals". > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:38 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch > >> I had to laugh at a quote from one of the tea partyers: >> 'Paul Butterfield, 48, an engineer from Ontario, N.Y., said: "We've >> achieved equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women, equal >> rights for gays....' >> >> I suspect that if he was black he would have been identified as one, >> and I doubt that with a name like Paul he is a woman, straight or gay >> is harder to tell but statistically he is likely to be straight. >> So for a likely white, straight, male to so heartily declare that we >> all have equal rights makes me chuckle. >> He must have missed the whole Lilly Ledbetter fight last year for >> sure. >> >> Katie >> >> >> >> On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:20 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >>> This is a bit more refreshing, someone who doesn't support the Tea >>> Party >>> but is fair and objective about it. >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/17/ >>> AR2010041702652.html >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> donkelly wrote: >>>> Maddow on live TV likened the Tea Party to the Oklahoma City >>>> Bomber. >>>> >>>> How far will they go to discredit the Tea Party? >>>> >>>> I suspect we have not seen that far yet. >>>> >>>> alerts at news.worldnetdaily.com; >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at ronhowden.com Thu Apr 22 08:21:59 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:21:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with In-Reply-To: <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <040201cae22f$8e01bfa0$aa053ee0$@com> And the view of Washington, DC from the top is very good. Ron H. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:26 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with Good Jeff, 555 ft 8 inches above ground level. On top so only God and George can see it, seems it was done that way for that reason. It demonstrates that consideration of God was part of the considerations in government. Nowhere in the constitution does it mandate separation of church and state. The founders were aware from past experience that a church running a government was not good. America would grow more user friendly for people than in any country they came from. Anyway, good show. I wonder how many school kids know that information, and what it means. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 12:08:41 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Now does anyone know where those two words appear? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< On one side of the cap on the Washington Monument. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2812 - Release Date: 04/20/10 23:31:00 From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 08:35:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:35:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> Message-ID: <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Moving on to Consolidation of government departments: http://www.therightsideoflife com/2009/03/21/the-presidents-further-consolidation-of-political-power/ From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 1:46:52 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Paying taxes for stuff you disagree with Brief responses below ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Good Jeff, 555 ft 8 inches above ground level. On top so only God > and George can see it, seems it was done that way for that reason. > It demonstrates that consideration of God was part of the > considerations in government. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That aluminum cap was also placed on the monument over a century after Washington died. So, it's not like the use of those words on a monument give any credibility to this nation being founded on christianity (more on that later). Further, there isn't any documentation I can find about who ordered the particular choice of words inscribed on the four sides of the aluminum cap. It could just as easily have not been a "consideration of government" that resulted in it. Interestingly, the other three sides are comprised of the names of those involved at the time of its completion so are they just as or more important than those two words on a single side? I find it curious that supposedly only god and George could see it up there. If viewing it was reserved for those two, shouldn't it have been placed (hidden) such that no human eye could be cast upon it? Even the phrase "praise be to god" doesn't actually say anything about a christian god, nor of a theist god. It could just as easily be referring to a deist god or the notion of a supernatural power outside of our Understanding. ========== Founding fathers were referred to occasionally as Deist's so I'll buy into that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Nowhere in the constitution does it mandate separation of > church and state. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No, it certainly doesn't. But the first amendment does a pretty thorough job of mandating it. Additionally, it's one of the more tested aspects of the first amendment and has stood up well over time. ============ It certainly has stood up well. The founding fathers understood the pitfalls of having a national church who's head was also the head of government. The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the ten commandments from courthouses. The founding fathers had little to go on, The laws of England http://en wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England#The_Rights_of_Persons The Mayflower Compact, The laws set down for the Jamestown Colony, the Ten Commandments, and little more. Then discussed all aspects of law I am sure, and picked out what worked for America and discarded the rest. Religious laws were clearly in their minds as they framed the government. ==================== There's *way* more info than could be reasonably imparted in a single email available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_St ates So, about our country being established on christianity. The Treaty of Tripoli does a pretty thorough job of addressing that with the following: "... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11 An excellent bit of writing about the matter of our nation, religion, and our founding fathers. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen Where exactly were you headed with the original question, anyway? Jeff =========================== That our nation was founded on Christian principals. The Tripoli comment is somewhat stated out of context, as Tripoli was a Muslim nation which we were trying to sell on signing a treaty to stop attacking our ships, and stop selling our people into slavery. It was just diplomatically spoken treaty talk. Nothing more. don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/6e0aa4d6/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 08:54:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:54:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> <5431EC06-7FF6-4C70-8F78-A679B16956D9@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BD0713F.00001E.02876@DON-B2514E06367> The Washington Post is very selective in whom or what they agree with that don't support the total government takeover. Numerically speaking, the Tea Party is a very small, but independent part, of the Patriotic freedom from big government movement. They are better organized and more vocal, therefore an obvious target for Obama supporting thugs to attack, with suspected yet unknown financing. The Tea Party are secular (unlike G&C) and finance themselves without government help. I admire most of the things that they are trying to do, like getting socialists and communists out of our government of the people, by the people Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/22/2010 8:15:26 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch Yep... No doubt all those "others" are "equal" in his mind-- equal to each other, that is, equally inferior to HIM. WW On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Thanks Katie for a great chuckle this morning! > > I'm sure in Paul Butterfield's mind: all blacks are equal, all > women are > equal, all gays are equal, so what's the problem - the white > straight males > are equal too and should be in charge of all the other "equals". > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:38 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch > >> I had to laugh at a quote from one of the tea partyers: >> 'Paul Butterfield, 48, an engineer from Ontario, N.Y., said: "We've >> achieved equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women, equal >> rights for gays....' >> >> I suspect that if he was black he would have been identified as one, >> and I doubt that with a name like Paul he is a woman, straight or gay >> is harder to tell but statistically he is likely to be straight. >> So for a likely white, straight, male to so heartily declare that we >> all have equal rights makes me chuckle. >> He must have missed the whole Lilly Ledbetter fight last year for >> sure. >> >> Katie -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/7ec64f03/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 09:22:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . Message-ID: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/c675ddd8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/c675ddd8/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d0c3eb8ca18907492a4b337b5cec5193.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2986 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/c675ddd8/attachment.jpeg From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 09:31:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:31:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: <4BD0713F.00001E.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> <5431EC06-7FF6-4C70-8F78-A679B16956D9@teleport.com> <4BD0713F.00001E.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: ".... with suspected but unknown financing...." Hummm. Couldn't that accusation be equally valid applied to the Tea Party and its cheerleaders, such as FreedomWorks? On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:54 AM, donkelly wrote: > The Washington Post is very selective in whom or what they agree > with that > don't support the total government takeover. > > Numerically speaking, the Tea Party is a very small, but > independent part, > of the Patriotic freedom from big government movement. > > They are better organized and more vocal, therefore an obvious > target for > Obama supporting thugs to attack, with suspected yet unknown > financing. > > The Tea Party are secular (unlike G&C) and finance themselves without > government help. > I admire most of the things that they are trying to do, like getting > socialists and communists out of our government of the people, by > the people > > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 4/22/2010 8:15:26 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch > > Yep... No doubt all those "others" are "equal" in his mind-- equal to > each other, that is, equally inferior to HIM. > WW > On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> Thanks Katie for a great chuckle this morning! >> >> I'm sure in Paul Butterfield's mind: all blacks are equal, all >> women are >> equal, all gays are equal, so what's the problem - the white >> straight males >> are equal too and should be in charge of all the other "equals". >> >> -Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Katie Allnutt" >> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:38 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch >> >>> I had to laugh at a quote from one of the tea partyers: >>> 'Paul Butterfield, 48, an engineer from Ontario, N.Y., said: "We've >>> achieved equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women, equal >>> rights for gays....' >>> >>> I suspect that if he was black he would have been identified as one, >>> and I doubt that with a name like Paul he is a woman, straight or >>> gay >>> is harder to tell but statistically he is likely to be straight. >>> So for a likely white, straight, male to so heartily declare that we >>> all have equal rights makes me chuckle. >>> He must have missed the whole Lilly Ledbetter fight last year for >>> sure. >>> >>> Katie > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 22 10:42:49 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:42:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments In-Reply-To: <4BCF6FAE.0000A5.02824@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF6FAE.0000A5.02824@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E93F2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> I think it's a misnomer to call them "Roman soldiers" in the period 800-1200 CE. From 641-1473, the operative empire was the Byzantine empire, operating out of Constantinople. The popes in Rome could and did make calls for military operations--the Crusades--but the Roman Army in the sense of the units led by the likes of Julius Caesar simply did not exist. As for sheer slaughters, while we are enumerating them, the single largest, most sustained loss of life due to the encroachments and ideology of one religion encountering The Other--unbelievers/pagans--has to be the genocide perpetrated in the so-called New World by the agents of European colonial enterprises. It has been estimated that each century following 1492 saw a 90% decline in the indigenous populations of the western hemisphere. The highest native population estimate I have seen for the Americas upon initial contact in 1492 was 100,000,000. A more typical figure is 60,000,000. Add to that the loss of life caused by the slave trade (instituted largely because Africans had built up tolerances to European-borne diseases and thus survived better than the indigenes under the conditions imposed by the Europeans), and we are looking at well over 100 million people simply decimated (a word based on Roman army punishment). For an eye-witness account of the brutality practiced by the Spanish, see the reports by Bartolome de las Casas, a Dominican priest and Bishop of Chiapas, published in 1542 as _A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies_(_Brev?sima relaci?n de la destrucci?n de las Indias_). His observations cover his time in the New World starting in 1502. Be ready to be shocked if you read this. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group I don't know how I can check it, though it would be nice to know. Apparently the Roman soldiers were pretty active between 800 and 1200, but not as invincible as they once were. I don't recall the History Channel citing the sources. So many deaths in one day would be unlikely I would think. 50,000 over time would seem more likely You brought up a good point about when did Cicily become Romans. History did not answer that one. Seems that before 800 AD Cicily was mostly a Greek Colony. Before them everyone seem to at one time or another been there. Pheonician traders, ancestors of the Palestinians, had trading posts and settlements there. Italians living there were (history suggests) later absorbed into the Greek culture. More later if I find it. Just love history. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 1:23:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group OK. I scanned around this and other sites...was there a set battle that killed "50,000 Roman soldiers"-or is this a cumulative figure over time based on the various incursions in Sicily (703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734) and the southern mainland of Italy (740, 805, 812 [ The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present-day Tunisia as their launching pad conquered Palermo in 831, Messina in 842, Enna in 859, Syracuse in 878, Catania in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina, in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula. In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome. Berber and Tulunid rebellions quickly led to the rise of the Fatimids taking over Aghlabid territory and Calabria was soon lost to the apanate of Italy. The Kalbid dynasty administered the Emirate of Sicily for the Fatimids by proxy from 948. By 1053 the dynasty died out in a dynastic struggle and interference from the Berber Zirids of Ifriqiya led to its break down into small fiefdoms which were captured by the Italo-Normans by 1091. Italo-Normans of course were Normans from France AKA descendents of Vikings. The Normans built castles in Italy as they did in every country they conquered. I hope this is what you were looking for. I don't have the Sardenia or Cicily books on hand to review. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/21/2010 10:53:32 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: RE: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments TurnHeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Muhammad died on June 8, 632 CE. It took a while for Islam to become a major force that could throw its weight around the Mediterranean basin. The Roman empire basically imploded in 476 CE. The Byzantine empire operated a good bit longer. With the Roman empire basically kaput, I'm wondering what battle or incident found Muslims killing the 50,000 "Roman soldiers" claimed in the message below? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:48 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group There is one single group that ideologically surmounts them all. Muslims, supported by their Quoran, jihads, faqua, etc., condemn everyone in the world to death who is not Muslim. In the 7th and 11th centuries they swept from Arabia to Spain and back to Italy, murdering everyone who refused to convert. Numbers? The history channel credits them with the ability to kill 60,000 people in one day...... .indeed one account said they killed 50,000 Roman soldiers in one day. Given hundreds of years more, they have the blood of perhaps a hundred million people on their hands, more than Stalin and Hitler put together. It is scary just to contemplate such slaughter of the innocent. What we term conservative Muslims, a product of the 21st century, may be tolerant of other religions, I can't see enough yet to know, but if they are tolerant of others, they would not fit into the gigantic box labeled radicals or terrorists, who only want one thing, and that is your death. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/21/2010 8:38:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn HeatedinCaseOverChristian Law Student Group Were there any ideological groups as brutal and destructive as the militant Christians? Strictly ideological groups, no... although the Mongol hordes committed total massacres that, for their day and the world population at the time, were probably more brutally efficient even than the Nazis. Yet the Mongols had their own simple religion, were mostly indifferent to the religions of others, and only massacred cities that opposed their conquest. They were even tolerant in their own way, demanding only submission to the Khan, tribute and "pasture for their horses." Whereas the early Church demanded not only submission to the Pope and tribute to the Holy See, but also surrender of the intellect, under the threat of death at the stake-- while any city or region daring to hold a slightly different version of Christianity might be invaded and slaughtered without mercy, in the name of a just and loving God. The rape of Constantinople has already been mentioned, but various religious wars and suppressions of sects and schisms probably took equal tolls, in both lives and human knowledge. On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I think it does make a difference, David. At least when you compare > the extreme Christian right to other extremist ideological groups. > Not even the worst extremist Satanic worshipers have come even > close to chocking up the amount of human suffering and repression > that has been justified, fed, and initiated by the extreme > Christian right's cruelest and most powerful campaigns over the > past 2,000 years. > > Name even one other extremist ideological group that has chocked up > as many holocausts, ethnic cleansings, crusades, lynchings, wars, > repressive kingdoms, enslavements, and pograms that have caused as > much human suffering and injustice. (Did I forget anything? I know > I must have.) If you can name even one such extremist ideological > group that has been connected with the causes of so much human > suffering, then I will stand corrected. I wish I were wrong. > > No other extremist ideological group comes even close. Not for the > last 2,000 years, at least, since Yoshua of Natzeret walked this > earth. > > Don't get me wrong. I do not blame him or his message at all. I > blame those who have messed up his messages. If he were alive > today, I bet he'd be even more upset about the extreme Christian > right than me. Not only because of the human suffering they have > caused, but because of the way we have let them. And the really > scary thing is that we are now witnessing yet another rise of their > repressive tactics in this country at a time when national apathy > and cynicism are rampant. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Morelli > > To: donkelly >; Forest Grove local interests > list > > Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 10:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated > inCaseOverChristian Law Student Group > > Please let us compare several religions, you may choose the ones > you want to consider, it doesn't make a difference. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:06 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Jeff, just a couple. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> Christians are fighting a several front battle for their rights >>> to be and live as Christians. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> Are they? How exactly? >> >> ====== > >> pray where they want, > How many religions do you wish to allow to conduct their prayers > before a public school football game? Do you really want to have > the "Mighty Mo's" chanting a Muslim call to prayer over the loud > speaker system? > >> display crosses where they want, > Do you want someone else to place crosses on your law ( with or > without gasoline ), or do you want to control that? Do you want to > be exposed to Kali's bloody heads displayed on the city park under > the flag? I just had a thought, some of the local native religions > throughout the world have phallic symbols as part of their > religious ceremonies. > >> keep the ten commandments in the courts system, > Do you propose to use the ten commandments provided by Moses BEFORE > he went up on Sinai to get the tablets (Exodus 20:1-17), or the ten > commandments that were carved on the tablets AFTER Moses went up on > Sinai the second time (Exodus 34:10-28)? That is a reasonable > question, because they are completely different "10 commandments". > >> display nativity scenes in front of their house, > Perhaps you should get out more around Christmas time. There is no > restriction on private display. > >> etc.======== > > America has a long history of Christian activity. We even had a > time when the Christian church in political power outlawed all > church services on Christmas day. I don't want that kind of > control over my practices. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet [cid:image001.gif at 01CAE155.C3882630] ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 10:50:05 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:50:05 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> So. A trillion dollars and the problem isn't fixed. Could be that an insurance co could make a point of not doing this and would gain lots of business. Government always does it better? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:22:15 To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 10:52:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:52:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Brief Account [Was Supreme Court Arguments] In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E93F2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <387456.99366.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCE0B8E.00000F.02592@DON-B2514E06367> <16003.57599.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <012e01cae0d0$f3826970$da873c50$@com> <4BCE22CC.000019.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <014601cae0d5$79dcf4a0$6d96dde0$@com> <4BCE335A.00002F.00268@DON-B2514E06367> <21E547D0-4A70-4264-8F4F-D046124EC131@verizon.net> <913343.83496.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCF3A3B.00004C.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D931D5E2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF4F69.000071.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E88CF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BCF6FAE.0000A5.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E93F2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BD08CCF.2040505@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/b4518775/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 10:56:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:56:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Could be the Department of Justice could have cured the fraud a lot cheaper than a trillion dollars? Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 4/22/2010 10:50:32 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . So. A trillion dollars and the problem isn't fixed. Could be that an insurance co could make a point of not doing this and would gain lots of business. Government always does it better? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/6285b575/attachment-0001.gif From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 10:59:12 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:59:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BD08E70.2090707@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/99374e4d/attachment.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 11:21:29 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> After reading this, I had to investigate what the executive compensation was and found the following.... >From the LA Times - please use link for the complete article: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/02/business/la-fi-wellpoint3-2010apr03 WellPoint hikes CEO's pay package April 02, 2010|By Duke Helfand and Walter Hamilton WellPoint Inc. revealed Friday that it boosted its chief executive's compensation 51% last year, even as the health insurance giant prepared massive rate increases in California that embroiled it in a national controversy over skyrocketing health insurance costs. Chief Executive Angela F. Braly saw her total compensation shoot to $13.1 million, from $8.7 million a year earlier, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. At least three other WellPoint executives got compensation increases of as much as 75%..... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:22 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . 'Nuff said ! ! bob "don't you just love it??" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Exclusive: WellPoint routinely targets breast cancer patients By Murray Waas April 22, 2010 LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - One after another, shortly after a diagnosis of breast cancer, each of the women learned that her health insurance had been canceled. First there was Yenny Hsu, who lived and worked in Los Angeles. Later, Robin Beaton, a registered nurse from Texas. And then, most recently, there was Patricia Relling, a successful art gallery owner and interior designer from Louisville, Kentucky. None of the women knew about the others. But besides their similar narratives, they had something else in common: Their health insurance carriers were subsidiaries of WellPoint, which has 33.7 million policyholders -- more than any other health insurance company in the United States. The women all paid their premiums on time. Before they fell ill, none had any problems with their insurance. Initially, they believed their policies had been canceled by mistake. They had no idea that WellPoint was using a computer algorithm that automatically targeted them and every other policyholder recently diagnosed with breast cancer. The software triggered an immediate fraud investigation, as the company searched for some pretext to drop their policies, according to government regulators and investigators. Once the women were singled out, they say, the insurer then canceled their policies based on either erroneous or flimsy information. WellPoint declined to comment on the women's specific cases without a signed waiver from them, citing privacy laws. From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 22 11:20:06 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:20:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9520@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Capitalism at its best. And we have folks here worried about unnamed socialists and communists in government--sort of like Senator McCarthy's "list." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . After reading this, I had to investigate what the executive compensation was and found the following.... >From the LA Times - please use link for the complete article: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/02/business/la-fi-wellpoint3-2010apr03 WellPoint hikes CEO's pay package April 02, 2010|By Duke Helfand and Walter Hamilton WellPoint Inc. revealed Friday that it boosted its chief executive's compensation 51% last year, even as the health insurance giant prepared massive rate increases in California that embroiled it in a national controversy over skyrocketing health insurance costs. Chief Executive Angela F. Braly saw her total compensation shoot to $13.1 million, from $8.7 million a year earlier, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. At least three other WellPoint executives got compensation increases of as much as 75%..... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:22 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . 'Nuff said ! ! bob "don't you just love it??" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Exclusive: WellPoint routinely targets breast cancer patients By Murray Waas April 22, 2010 LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - One after another, shortly after a diagnosis of breast cancer, each of the women learned that her health insurance had been canceled. First there was Yenny Hsu, who lived and worked in Los Angeles. Later, Robin Beaton, a registered nurse from Texas. And then, most recently, there was Patricia Relling, a successful art gallery owner and interior designer from Louisville, Kentucky. None of the women knew about the others. But besides their similar narratives, they had something else in common: Their health insurance carriers were subsidiaries of WellPoint, which has 33.7 million policyholders -- more than any other health insurance company in the United States. The women all paid their premiums on time. Before they fell ill, none had any problems with their insurance. Initially, they believed their policies had been canceled by mistake. They had no idea that WellPoint was using a computer algorithm that automatically targeted them and every other policyholder recently diagnosed with breast cancer. The software triggered an immediate fraud investigation, as the company searched for some pretext to drop their policies, according to government regulators and investigators. Once the women were singled out, they say, the insurer then canceled their policies based on either erroneous or flimsy information. WellPoint declined to comment on the women's specific cases without a signed waiver from them, citing privacy laws. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 11:34:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:34:06 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BD08E70.2090707@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BD0969A.000030.02876@DON-B2514E06367> If discussing why current health care is so expensive, I believe the operative definition is 'fraud'. Therefore it follows that cure the fraud and costs go down, way down. If costs go way down, then way more people could afford health care, and with help from tax Supported social services, every American citizen could be covered. So question: What can the trillion dollar health care bill provide, that curing fraud could not do? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/22/2010 10:59:29 AM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . I think your operative phrase is "could [it] be than an insurance co could make a point", but some how they never seem to want to do the right thing when the chips are down. I wonder if it has anything with them all being for profits" now, unlike when the blues were first created ? ? bob "why am I cynical?" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/22/2010 10:50 AM, Steve wrote: So. A trillion dollars and the problem isn't fixed. Could be that an insurance co could make a point of not doing this and would gain lots of business. Government always does it better? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/5d29a988/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 11:42:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:42:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9520@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BD0989D.000033.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Except that current crop, by their own admissions, and by their acts, name themselves. Everyone watching the major and minor news channels over the past two years know who they are, and what they are. McCarthy would have an easy time of it today. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/22/2010 11:20:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . Capitalism at its best. And we have folks here worried about unnamed socialists and communists in government--sort of like Senator McCarthy's list." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . After reading this, I had to investigate what the executive compensation was and found the following.... >From the LA Times - please use link for the complete article: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/02/business/la-fi-wellpoint3-2010apr03 WellPoint hikes CEO's pay package April 02, 2010|By Duke Helfand and Walter Hamilton WellPoint Inc. revealed Friday that it boosted its chief executive's compensation 51% last year, even as the health insurance giant prepared massive rate increases in California that embroiled it in a national controversy over skyrocketing health insurance costs. Chief Executive Angela F. Braly saw her total compensation shoot to $13.1 million, from $8.7 million a year earlier, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. At least three other WellPoint executives got compensation increases of as much as 75%..... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:22 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . 'Nuff said ! ! bob "don't you just love it??" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Exclusive: WellPoint routinely targets breast cancer patients By Murray Waas April 22, 2010 LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - One after another, shortly after a diagnosis of breast cancer, each of the women learned that her health insurance had been canceled. First there was Yenny Hsu, who lived and worked in Los Angeles. Later, Robin Beaton, a registered nurse from Texas. And then, most recently, there was Patricia Relling, a successful art gallery owner and interior designer from Louisville, Kentucky. None of the women knew about the others. But besides their similar narratives, they had something else in common: Their health insurance carriers were subsidiaries of WellPoint, which has 33.7 million policyholders -- more than any other health insurance company in the United States. The women all paid their premiums on time. Before they fell ill, none had any problems with their insurance. Initially, they believed their policies had been canceled by mistake. They had no idea that WellPoint was using a computer algorithm that automatically targeted them and every other policyholder recently diagnosed with breast cancer. The software triggered an immediate fraud investigation, as the company searched for some pretext to drop their policies, according to government regulators and investigators. Once the women were singled out, they say, the insurer then canceled their policies based on either erroneous or flimsy information. WellPoint declined to comment on the women's specific cases without a signed waiver from them, citing privacy laws. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/fe7add14/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 11:45:09 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . In-Reply-To: <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <716D8780-8559-4AF5-B094-FB37EF4E01B2@verizon.net> Don, The department of Justice can't do a thing if the insurance companies actions are not unlawful. Unless of course you are now an advocate for the big bad government Justice Department taking things into their own hands and defining fraud to their own devices. Surely you wouldn't want that.... Katie On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:56 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > > > Could be the Department of Justice could have cured the fraud a lot > cheaper > than a trillion dollars? > > Don > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Steve > > Date: 4/22/2010 10:50:32 AM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing > about .. > . . > > > > So. A trillion dollars and the problem isn't fixed. Could be that an > insurance co could make a point of not doing this and would gain > lots of > business. > > Government always does it better? > ___________________________ > ____________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 22 11:45:24 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:45:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD0989D.000033.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9520@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BD0989D.000033.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E95A3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> So, you aren't naming names? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:43 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . Except that current crop, by their own admissions, and by their acts, name themselves. Everyone watching the major and minor news channels over the past two years know who they are, and what they are. McCarthy would have an easy time of it today. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 4/22/2010 11:20:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . Capitalism at its best. And we have folks here worried about unnamed socialists and communists in government--sort of like Senator McCarthy's list." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . After reading this, I had to investigate what the executive compensation was and found the following.... >From the LA Times - please use link for the complete article: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/02/business/la-fi-wellpoint3-2010apr03 WellPoint hikes CEO's pay package April 02, 2010|By Duke Helfand and Walter Hamilton WellPoint Inc. revealed Friday that it boosted its chief executive's compensation 51% last year, even as the health insurance giant prepared massive rate increases in California that embroiled it in a national controversy over skyrocketing health insurance costs. Chief Executive Angela F. Braly saw her total compensation shoot to $13.1 million, from $8.7 million a year earlier, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. At least three other WellPoint executives got compensation increases of as much as 75%..... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Bob Browning Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:22 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . 'Nuff said ! ! bob "don't you just love it??" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Exclusive: WellPoint routinely targets breast cancer patients By Murray Waas April 22, 2010 LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - One after another, shortly after a diagnosis of breast cancer, each of the women learned that her health insurance had been canceled. First there was Yenny Hsu, who lived and worked in Los Angeles. Later, Robin Beaton, a registered nurse from Texas. And then, most recently, there was Patricia Relling, a successful art gallery owner and interior designer from Louisville, Kentucky. None of the women knew about the others. But besides their similar narratives, they had something else in common: Their health insurance carriers were subsidiaries of WellPoint, which has 33.7 million policyholders -- more than any other health insurance company in the United States. The women all paid their premiums on time. Before they fell ill, none had any problems with their insurance. Initially, they believed their policies had been canceled by mistake. They had no idea that WellPoint was using a computer algorithm that automatically targeted them and every other policyholder recently diagnosed with breast cancer. The software triggered an immediate fraud investigation, as the company searched for some pretext to drop their policies, according to government regulators and investigators. Once the women were singled out, they say, the insurer then canceled their policies based on either erroneous or flimsy information. WellPoint declined to comment on the women's specific cases without a signed waiver from them, citing privacy laws. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 11:55:37 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:55:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . In-Reply-To: <4BD0969A.000030.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BD08E70.2090707@jurislex.com> <4BD0969A.000030.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <02432921-A86A-4E7A-9DE7-CD181C80513A@teleport.com> If the insurance companies make a lot of money from fraud, maybe that explains why the CEOs' yearly haul is so obscenely high? Would it cost a trillion dollars to hire all the new fraud investigators, detectives, book examiners, accountants, public prosecutors, attorneys and hopefully jailers required to go through the labyrinthine rats-nest of the medical/big pharm/insurance industries and untangle the mess? Or would it be faster and easier to write strict new regulations that cover all eventualities, then mash any offenders? WW On Apr 22, 2010, at 11:34 AM, donkelly wrote: > If discussing why current health care is so expensive, I believe the > operative definition is 'fraud'. > > Therefore it follows that cure the fraud and costs go down, way down. > > If costs go way down, then way more people could afford health > care, and > with help from tax > Supported social services, every American citizen could be covered. > > So question: What can the trillion dollar health care bill provide, > that > curing fraud could not do? > > Don > -------Original Message------- > > From: Bob Browning > Date: 4/22/2010 10:59:29 AM > To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing > about .. > . . > > I think your operative phrase is "could [it] be than an insurance > co could > make a point", but some how they never seem to want to do the right > thing > when the chips are down. I wonder if it has anything with them all > being > for profits" now, unlike when the blues were first created ? ? > > bob "why am I cynical?" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/22/2010 10:50 AM, Steve wrote: > So. A trillion dollars and the problem isn't fixed. Could be that an > insurance co could make a point of not doing this and would gain > lots of > business. > Government always does it better? > > > > > ___________________________ > ____________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Apr 22 11:57:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:57:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD0989D.000033.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <6593E857C26B4AAC9E4FD0973D543E18@JeffVAIO> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9520@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BD0989D.000033.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <47213166-B9B9-4349-BE6C-53177140F1DD@teleport.com> Eh? I didn't catch them naming themselves, so why don't you name them? (No cribbing from GodandCountry, either). On Apr 22, 2010, at 11:42 AM, donkelly wrote: > > Except that current crop, by their own admissions, and by their > acts, name > themselves. > > Everyone watching the major and minor news channels over the past > two years > know who they are, and what they are. > > McCarthy would have an easy time of it today. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Steele, Mike > Date: 4/22/2010 11:20:21 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing > about . > . . > > Capitalism at its best. And we have folks here worried about unnamed > socialists and communists in government--sort of like Senator > McCarthy's > list." > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:21 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing > about . > . . > > After reading this, I had to investigate what the executive > compensation was > and found the following.... > >> From the LA Times - please use link for the complete article: > http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/02/business/la-fi- > wellpoint3-2010apr03 > > > WellPoint hikes CEO's pay package > April 02, 2010|By Duke Helfand and Walter Hamilton > > WellPoint Inc. revealed Friday that it boosted its chief executive's > compensation 51% last year, even as the health insurance giant > prepared > massive rate increases in California that embroiled it in a national > controversy over skyrocketing health insurance costs. > Chief Executive Angela F. Braly saw her total compensation shoot to > $13.1 > million, from $8.7 million a year earlier, according to a filing > with the > Securities and Exchange Commission. At least three other WellPoint > executives got compensation increases of as much as 75%..... > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > From: Bob Browning > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:22 AM > To: Grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing > about . . . > > > > 'Nuff said ! ! > > bob "don't you just love it??" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Exclusive: WellPoint routinely targets breast cancer patients > By Murray Waas > April 22, 2010 > > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - One after another, shortly after a > diagnosis of > breast cancer, each of the women learned that her health insurance > had been > canceled. First there was Yenny Hsu, who lived and worked in Los > Angeles. > Later, Robin Beaton, a registered nurse from Texas. And then, most > recently, > there was Patricia Relling, a successful art gallery owner and > interior > designer from Louisville, Kentucky. > None of the women knew about the others. But besides their similar > narratives, they had something else in common: Their health insurance > carriers were subsidiaries of WellPoint, which has 33.7 million > policyholders -- more than any other health insurance company in > the United > States. > The women all paid their premiums on time. Before they fell ill, > none had > any problems with their insurance. Initially, they believed their > policies > had been canceled by mistake. > They had no idea that WellPoint was using a computer algorithm that > automatically targeted them and every other policyholder recently > diagnosed > with breast cancer. The software triggered an immediate fraud > investigation, > as the company searched for some pretext to drop their policies, > according > to government regulators and investigators. > Once the women were singled out, they say, the insurer then > canceled their > policies based on either erroneous or flimsy information. WellPoint > declined > to comment on the women's specific cases without a signed waiver > from them, > citing privacy laws. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 12:16:51 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:16:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Moving on to Consolidation of government departments: > > http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2009/03/21/the-presidents-further- > consolidation-of-political-power/ > > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted > to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to > remove the ten commandments from courthouses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The first amendment grants us all freedom of and from religion. At least that's how SCOTUS -- a group of people far more wise about our laws than either of us -- has ruled on several occasions. It specifically says no one group, religious or irreligious, should get preference over another. Additionally, it prohibits the establishment of a national religion. I think it's that last bit that gets the religious symbols and phraseology into trouble when inserted into things defined by law -- the Pledge of Allegiance, currency, the Ten Commandments in courthouses, etc. The "under god" and "in god we trust" bits in the first two are relatively safe as they don't give preference to any one specific religion. However, as the ten commandments is a specifically christian thing, I think that's where that gets into trouble. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > That our nation was founded on Christian principals. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Not specifically on christian principles actually. Take the word "christian" out of that sentence and replace it with most any other religion. Or, take that word out and replace it with "good moral". The reality is that christian's don't have a monopoly on not lying, not killing, being good to each other, not stealing, etc. (some might even argue than in some sense they actually have the corner on some of those markets, per another thread). To suggest that the principals are uniquely christian requires huge assumptions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The Tripoli comment is somewhat stated out of context, as Tripoli > was a Muslim nation which we were trying to sell on signing a treaty > to stop attacking our ships, and stop selling our people into > slavery. > > It was just diplomatically spoken treaty talk. Nothing more. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Scholarly men far more versed in this specific topic and its historic context have emphatically disagreed with that position. They are actually able to show that this statement wasn't "just diplomatically spoken treaty talk", but the position that was held by the major framers of the Constitution and its early amendments. In fact, that post-treaty comparison of the Arabic version and the English version found that Article 11 (the article that contained the bits I referenced) didn't seem to be in the Arabic version at all. So, there goes the idea that it was put in there for diplomatic reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Translation Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 22 12:21:04 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:21:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9660@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Don wrote "That our nation was founded on Christian principals" [sic]... Do you mean principles such as a 2,000-year history of support for slavery, or the relegation of females to worse than second-class status...principles like those? --Mike From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 12:28:32 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:28:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . Message-ID: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/c736922e/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 12:29:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:29:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> Message-ID: <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Would it have had better impact if Thomas Jefferson has written a letter to the Mullah of Tripoli saying, "Stop capturing our ships and crews for ransom or I will send Christian Crusaders to level your town and remove you from power?" Think that would tear it? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 12:17:06 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Moving on to Consolidation of government departments: > > http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2009/03/21/the-presidents-further- > consolidation-of-political-power/ > > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted > to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to > remove the ten commandments from courthouses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The first amendment grants us all freedom of and from religion. At least that's how SCOTUS -- a group of people far more wise about our laws than either of us -- has ruled on several occasions. It specifically says no one group, religious or irreligious, should get preference over another. Additionally, it prohibits the establishment of a national religion. I think it's that last bit that gets the religious symbols and phraseology into trouble when inserted into things defined by law -- the Pledge of Allegiance, currency, the Ten Commandments in courthouses, etc. The "under god" and "in god we trust" bits in the first two are relatively safe as they don't give preference to any one specific religion. However, as the ten commandments is a specifically christian thing, I think that's where that gets into trouble. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > That our nation was founded on Christian principals. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Not specifically on christian principles actually. Take the word "christian" out of that sentence and replace it with most any other religion. Or, take that word out and replace it with "good moral". The reality is that christian's don't have a monopoly on not lying, not killing, being good to each other, not stealing, etc. (some might even argue than in some sense they actually have the corner on some of those markets, per another thread). To suggest that the principals are uniquely christian requires huge assumptions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The Tripoli comment is somewhat stated out of context, as Tripoli > was a Muslim nation which we were trying to sell on signing a treaty > to stop attacking our ships, and stop selling our people into > slavery. > > It was just diplomatically spoken treaty talk. Nothing more. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Scholarly men far more versed in this specific topic and its historic context have emphatically disagreed with that position. They are actually able to show that this statement wasn't "just diplomatically spoken treaty talk", but the position that was held by the major framers of the Constitution and its early amendments. In fact, that post-treaty comparison of the Arabic version and the English version found that Article 11 (the article that contained the bits I referenced) didn't seem to be in the Arabic version at all. So, there goes the idea that it was put in there for diplomatic reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Translation Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/0d6cee25/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Apr 22 12:32:00 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:32:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Keith on Jefferson In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9660@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9660@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9687@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thomas Jefferson, whose fame needs no introduction, was quoted by Keith Olbermann on MSNBC on 4/19: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god....The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Note: he was also the author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. This important document may be accessed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom --Mike From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 12:33:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:33:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . In-Reply-To: <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <046e01cae252$a2ff81d0$e8fe8570$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Could be the Department of Justice could have cured the fraud a lot > cheaper than a trillion dollars? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Investigating fraud is expensive. Then for those cases where you can gather sufficient evidence to warrant a trip to the court system, the legal costs can be quite expensive as well. Worse, there's much to the favor of the insurance companies and hospitals to present the evidence in such a way as to make the insured appear to be the one committing the fraud making it even more difficult to establish a pattern of fraud (or collusion) by the actual guilty parties. Pursuing issues of fraud is certainly important, but it isn't a cure all by any stretch of the imagination. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 12:51:42 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:51:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9660@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D93E9660@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BD0A8CE.7090307@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/1d216d6c/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 14:08:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) In-Reply-To: <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <049201cae25f$ed3b7df0$c7b279d0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Would it have had better impact if Thomas Jefferson has written a > letter to the Mullah of Tripoli saying, "Stop capturing our ships > and crews for ransom or I will send Christian Crusaders to level > your town and remove you from power?" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Positing that something like that would have had any impact would be ridiculous as Jefferson was staunchly against pushing any particular religion, especially any sort of christianity of the day. Further, our country hardly had any "christian crusaders" to send should they call our bluff. Additionally, treaties are usually worded in a non-hostile fashion rather than a "if you don't do xyz, we'll do abc" algebraic equation that's sure to garner posturing, at the very least. Treaties are about getting signatures, not as a tactical tool to spark another conflict. Again, however, you miss the point on a couple of things. First, the version that was delivered to Tripoli and signed by Pasha of Tripoli was in Arabic and did not contain the 11th Article. As the 11th Article wasn't in the Arabic version they received and signed, it couldn't have been included for the purposes of just being good diplomatic treaty talk. Instead, it was included in the English version that we signed and ratified. Was it included for another purpose? Could that purpose have been to give material for future generations to work with when trying to determine our founding fathers intent with regard to separation of church and state? http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796e.asp I submit that all the "praise be to god", "glory be to god", and other religious posturing in the Arabic version is most certainly just good diplomatic treaty talk (or in modern parlance -- ass kissing). Second, the Treaty of Tripoli wasn't about embracing or rejecting any particular religious system. It was a response to a declaration of war by the Pasha of Tripoli. Before you get your knickers in a knot about this being some sort of Islamic jihad against christianity, it's probably worth noting that Tripoli was involved in privateering and that treaties of this sort were customary (along with a large payoff) to guarantee safe passage of ships in the waters that were patrolled by the pirates employed by countries like Tripoli (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunis also required similar treaties and payoffs). These countries weren't involved in these ventures for religious purposes. It had everything to do with money, including the treaties (and required payoffs). It was nothing more than extortion. So, considering the 11th article wasn't in the Arabic version and the treaty was about money and not religion, why do you suppose it was only in the English version that was ratified? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 15:00:01 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> > From: Bob Browning > > Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's > citizenship to run in 2012 > > By The Associated Press > > > > April 22, 2010, 11:33AM > > PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would > require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate > if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election > bid. Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 16:02:22 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:02:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> Message-ID: <4BD0D57E.1050304@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/6a1875dc/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 16:35:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:35:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> > From: Bob Browning > > [...] nazi, christian-hating, [...] I recalled this curious juxtaposition and recalled some info I'd read a while back that actually renders the comma-ified connection suggested above to be more than curiously spurious. http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm A more general expose on the matter, including references to much of the same material covered here by Don, Mike, David, Holly, Walt, etc. I discovered at: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076 Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Thu Apr 22 16:38:28 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:38:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . Message-ID: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/8962ccff/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/8962ccff/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100422/8962ccff/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Attached Message Part Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100422/8962ccff/attachment.ksh From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu Apr 22 17:06:35 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! Message-ID: <575574.33424.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> ?It's a busy weekend coming up with two big events for families!? Hope to see you at both!? Alana ? ? FAIRE IN THE GROVE??? http://www.faireinthegrove.com/ ? ? Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon?s Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fifth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups?including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too. ?The Medieval Faire has truly becowww.FaireInTheGrove.comme a Forest Grove activity:? an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city,? said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove.? ?The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring.? At least 8,000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend.? There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day?s closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin?s grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday April 23, 3 pm to dusk, Saturday April 24, 10 am to dusk, Sunday April 25, 10 am to 3 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase.? See the website for all the details www.FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. ******************************************? EARTH DAY FAMILY FUN FAIR!?? Saturday, April 24, noon to 5 p.m.? ? Family Fun Fair will be held on the?grounds of UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro?Saturday, April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! ? A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 p.m.?followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. ? Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact growgreener2010@ gmail.com. ? A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Apr 22 17:38:42 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:38:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> References: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <04c901cae27d$5546c090$ffd441b0$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited > Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a > raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I wonder what this clown thinks the 10,000 or so Muslims in the US military ought to think of his position on the matter? I suppose he thinks they should probably not be in the US military and are probably all terrorists. Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 23:27:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:27:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in Case Over Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> Message-ID: <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> The Skeptoid article reminds me of a Richard Harris recording of "There Are Too Many Saviors Upon My Cross". The basic premise of the recording was that Jesus doesn't appreciate people forming religion in to bullets to shoot into the hearts of men. The specific context is the problems in Northern Ireland, but it can apply to the world as a whole. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] nazi, christian-hating, [...] > > I recalled this curious juxtaposition and recalled some info I'd read a while back that actually renders the comma-ified connection suggested above to be more than curiously spurious. > > http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm > > A more general expose on the matter, including references to much of the same material covered here by Don, Mike, David, Holly, Walt, etc. I discovered at: > > http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From k.wilke at mac.com Thu Apr 22 23:31:15 2010 From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:31:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> Message-ID: Is there any pickleball players out there? Is there a place to play pickleball in the area? I played a few years ago while in AZ. I enjoyed it and would like to play it again. Kurt From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 23:31:30 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:31:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> Message-ID: <492D4835-A839-48C8-9EE5-9924FA9C7610@verizon.net> It sort of comes as a "ho-hum" type of law. If he is required to prove that he is legally qualified to run for President, no big deal, because he is qualified. If the state can ask for proof that people are old enough to vote, they can ask if someone is old enough to stand for election. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's citizenship to run in 2012 >> >> By The Associated Press >> >> >> >> April 22, 2010, 11:33AM >> >> PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election bid. > > Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) > > Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 23:37:14 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:37:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Coulter has Maddow for lunch In-Reply-To: References: <4BCFA64F.0000D6.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <4BD03F1A.5090601@gmail.com> <81A46DAA-E136-4AA5-B135-31EA656E81F8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <11221CF5-0DF4-4607-979A-3E07CD979010@verizon.net> I wonder if he meant it as you say, or if statement means that "corporations are more equal and those who control them are more equal" David On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Thanks Katie for a great chuckle this morning! > > I'm sure in Paul Butterfield's mind: all blacks are equal, all women are equal, all gays are equal, so what's the problem - the white straight males are equal too and should be in charge of all the other "equals". > > -Marian From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 23:46:07 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:46:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <339E38EA-0D3C-4A93-996F-A33121E29211@verizon.net> So, do you approve of a mandatory system of universal military suffrage? Every citizen should be a trained soldier, like Switzerland and Israel? David On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:35 AM, donkelly wrote: > Moving on to Consolidation of government departments: > > http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2009/03/21/the-presidents-further-consolidation-of-political-power/ From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Apr 22 23:51:55 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:51:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sort of what Jeff H and I have been writing about .. . . In-Reply-To: <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD077B7.5040904@jurislex.com> <339896756-1271958614-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1408759753-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4BD08DB6.000027.02876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <25A19098-E469-4363-918A-F7E6795F5F13@verizon.net> Did you look at the fines for the cases the insurance companies lost? $10 million in fines for defrauding a couple thousand customers. That is like $5000 per person. When we consider the cost of a surgery and a month's stay in a hospital. The insurance company came out so far ahead it isn't a deterrent. Jail time for the corporate officers might be a deterrent, but they would need to be in criminal court for that punishment. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:56 AM, donkelly wrote: > Could be the Department of Justice could have cured the fraud a lot cheaper than a trillion dollars? > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 00:17:30 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:17:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> Message-ID: <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the ten commandments from courthouses. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want to publish them in courthouses? I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce these. Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers where they appear to fit. David Exodus 34:11-28 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. #2. You shall not make cast idols. #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.* From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 00:44:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:44:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <049201cae25f$ed3b7df0$c7b279d0$@com> Message-ID: <4BD14FEC.00000F.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Absolutely correct about the religion part Jeff (IMHO), but I disagree with paragraph two because I think I have a gist of what they were thinking. First, there may be no such thing as a treaty between churches. If religion were the only thing, the Pasha being strong with his religion (however he may have had a secular bent too) but being strong in his belief he would never enter into a treaty (a contract) with Christians. No how no way. Instead, the treaty had to be between two countries, no religion involved, and it had to be mutually acceptable, one side gets something and the other side gets something. If I have the right treaty and if I recall it correctly, the Pasha received $60,000 a year from America in exchange for him not interfering with American commerce in the Mediterranean. Finally, to revisit another few statements I disagree with, two of which the ten commandments is a religious function, or the ten commandments are equated to Christianity. As Snoops would say, FALSE. First be clear that when I mention Christian Principals, I am not addressing any certain religion, but am addressing all people in America who follow good principals, believers or not, even Jews if it at all applies, and if they don't mind being lumped in with us.........God as a deity, not as any certain religion. Moses led the people out of Egypt and 40 or so years later he brought the ten commandments down from the mountain. Most of the people who followed Moses were Idolaters. They were not Jews either as the did not derive that name until they founded Judea and scattered 12 tribes of Hebrews around the country hundreds of years before Christ was born. There were no Christians either as Christianity was founded after the birth of Christ 600 years later. The ten commandments Moses brought down from the mountain was God's law, God s law for all of mankind. It is historically ridiculous to equate the ten commandments with any religion at all, it was a set of laws, perhaps the first written set of laws for mankind, but nothing more. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 2:08:27 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Would it have had better impact if Thomas Jefferson has written a > letter to the Mullah of Tripoli saying, "Stop capturing our ships > and crews for ransom or I will send Christian Crusaders to level > your town and remove you from power?" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Positing that something like that would have had any impact would be ridiculous as Jefferson was staunchly against pushing any particular religion, especially any sort of christianity of the day. Further, our country hardly had any "christian crusaders" to send should they call our bluff. Additionally, treaties are usually worded in a non-hostile fashion rather than a "if you don't do xyz, we'll do abc" algebraic equation that's sure to garner posturing, at the very least. Treaties are about getting signatures, not as a tactical tool to spark another conflict. Again, however, you miss the point on a couple of things. First, the version that was delivered to Tripoli and signed by Pasha of Tripoli was in Arabic and did not contain the 11th Article. As the 11th Article wasn't in the Arabic version they received and signed, it couldn't have been included for the purposes of just being good diplomatic treaty talk. Instead, it was included in the English version that we signed and ratified. Was it included for another purpose? Could that purpose have been to give material for future generations to work with when trying to determine our founding fathers intent with regard to separation of church and state? http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796e.asp I submit that all the "praise be to god", "glory be to god", and other religious posturing in the Arabic version is most certainly just good diplomatic treaty talk (or in modern parlance -- ass kissing). Second, the Treaty of Tripoli wasn't about embracing or rejecting any particular religious system. It was a response to a declaration of war by the Pasha of Tripoli. Before you get your knickers in a knot about this being some sort of Islamic jihad against christianity, it's probably worth noting that Tripoli was involved in privateering and that treaties of this sort were customary (along with a large payoff) to guarantee safe passage of ships in the waters that were patrolled by the pirates employed by countries like Tripoli (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunis also required similar treaties and payoffs). These countries weren't involved in these ventures for religious purposes. It had everything to do with money, including the treaties (and required payoffs). It was nothing more than extortion. So, considering the 11th article wasn't in the Arabic version and the treaty was about money and not religion, why do you suppose it was only in the English version that was ratified? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 01:11:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:11:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . References: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> <04c901cae27d$5546c090$ffd441b0$@com> Message-ID: <4BD15641.000013.03252@DON-B2514E06367> He might just be right Jeff. If enough Muslims were in the US Military, they could disrupt defense, even paralyzed the military. You need to read again the creed of Muslims, which is to conquer the world and install Sharia Law. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 5:38:51 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited > Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a > raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I wonder what this clown thinks the 10,000 or so Muslims in the US military ought to think of his position on the matter? I suppose he thinks they should probably not be in the US military and are probably all terrorists. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/0a44b7eb/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 01:26:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:26:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <492D4835-A839-48C8-9EE5-9924FA9C7610@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD159B7.00001D.03252@DON-B2514E06367> We in numerous instances have to show a certified copy of our long form birth certificate. Is the president so sacrosanct that he doesn't have to do the same thing as we have to do? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/22/2010 11:32:34 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . It sort of comes as a "ho-hum" type of law. If he is required to prove that he is legally qualified to run for President, no big deal, because he is qualified. If the state can ask for proof that people are old enough to vote, they can ask if someone is old enough to stand for election. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's citizenship to run in 2012 >> >> By The Associated Press >> >> >> >> April 22, 2010, 11:33AM >> >> PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election bid. > > Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) > > Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/6621adf9/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 01:28:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:28:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <4BD0D57E.1050304@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BD15A18.000020.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Obama does that rather well all by himself. Did you review the 50 Obama lies? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/22/2010 4:02:39 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . That doesn't seem to faze the Rs in the Arizona Legislature. They have acknowledged that only the federal government can deal with immigration issues, but just a few weeks ago the Arizona Rs passed a law similar to Columbia County's ill-fated bill on criminalizing immigration status. Hey, they got no problems in Arizona that are more important than trying to embarrass Obama!! bob "throw the bums out" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/22/2010 3:00 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) Jeff Original message From: Bob Browning Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's citizenship to run in 2012 By The Associated Press April 22, 2010, 11:33AM PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election bid. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/76c36841/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 02:08:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:08:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . References: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BD163A1.00002A.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Well, it looks like Obama's prayer censoring group get's the nod on this one Can't blame Obama directly, and can't blame the Pentagon that invites prayers in the pentagon. There is more news out today to make some people squirm. Attached because too long to post. Cheers Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/22/2010 4:38:50 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! Don't you just love to watch someone who is paranoid jump around trying to watch their front and their back at the same time!! bob "still seeking, but being tolerant in the meantime" browning PS: I am available to speak if they will pay my airfare and housing!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Army disinvites Graham to Pentagon Prayer Day By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer April 22, 2010 WASHINGTON ? Evangelist Franklin Graham's invitation to speak at a Pentagon prayer service has been rescinded because his comments about Islam were inappropriate, the Army said Thursday. Graham, the son of famed evangelist Billy Graham, in 2001 described Islam as evil. More recently, he has said he finds Islam offensive and wants Muslims to know that Jesus Christ died for their sins. Army spokesman Col. Tom Collins said Graham's remarks were "not appropriate. "We're an all-inclusive military," Collins said. "We honor all faiths. ... Our message to our service and civilian work force is about the need for diversity and appreciation of all faiths." The Military Religious Freedom Foundation had raised the objection to Graham s appearance, citing his past remarks about Islam. Collins said earlier this week that the invitation to attend the National Day of Prayer event at the Pentagon wasn't from the military but from the Colorado-based National Day of Prayer Task Force, which works with the Pentagon chaplain's office on the prayer event. As co-honorary chair of the task force, Graham was expected to be the lead speaker at the May 6 Pentagon service. Country singer Ricky Skaggs was expected to perform. Since Graham's invitation was rescinded, the task force has decided not to participate in the military prayer service, Collins said. The decision suggests a growing sensitivity in recent years among senior Pentagon officials to the divide between the U.S. military and Muslims. Graham attended a Pentagon prayer service in 2003, despite objections by Muslim groups. Graham said he regrets that the Army felt its decision was necessary. In a statement, Graham said he would continue to pray for the troops to "give them guidance, wisdom and protection as they serve this great country." Nihad Awad, national executive director of Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Graham's invitation would have sent entirely the wrong message" at a time when troops are stationed in Muslim nations. "Promoting one's own religious beliefs is something to be defended and encouraged, but other faiths should not be attacked or misrepresented in the process," Awad said. Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the prayer task force, said Wednesday that U.S leaders have called for a day of prayer during times of crisis since 1775 but the tradition is under attack. "Enough is enough," said Dobson, wife of conservative Christian leader James Dobson. "We at the National Day of Prayer Task Force ask the American people to defend the right to pray in the Pentagon." She called on President Barack Obama to appeal a ruling by a federal judge in Wisconsin last week that the National Day of Prayer was unconstitutional because it amounts to a call for religious action. The judge did not bar any observances until all appeals are exhausted. The Obama administration said Thursday it would appeal. Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation said Graham shouldn't have been invited in the first place. "I want to say this is a victory, but in a way it's a Pyrrhic victory because it shows how far this got," Weinstein said. "We're not exactly doing cartwheels." Weinstein said he hopes someone more "inclusive" will be invited to replace Graham. Collins said there was no word yet on who would lead the event. Associated Press writer Dan Elliott in Denver contributed to this report. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment.ksh From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 02:10:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:10:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! References: <575574.33424.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD1640E.00002E.03252@DON-B2514E06367> This sounds thoroughly interesting. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alana Graham Date: 4/22/2010 5:06:53 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! It's a busy weekend coming up with two big events for families! Hope to see you at both! Alana FAIRE IN THE GROVE http://www.faireinthegrove.com/ Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon?s Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fifth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups?including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too ?The Medieval Faire has truly becowww.FaireInTheGrove.comme a Forest Grove activity: an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city,? said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove. ?The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring.? At least 8,000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend. There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day?s closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin?s grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday April 23, 3 pm to dusk, Saturday April 24, 10 am to dusk, Sunday April 25, 10 am to 3 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase. See the website for all the details www FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. ****************************************** EARTH DAY FAMILY FUN FAIR! Saturday, April 24, noon to 5 p.m. Family Fun Fair will be held on the grounds of UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro Saturday, April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 p.m. followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact growgreener2010@ gmail.com. A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ef4c3058/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 02:40:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:40:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> Message-ID: <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> I doubt they will do that because it is not unconstitutional. And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then everyone interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 3:00:28 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > From: Bob Browning > > Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's > citizenship to run in 2012 > > By The Associated Press > > > > April 22, 2010, 11:33AM > > PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would > require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate > if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election > bid. Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/abb23f0a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 02:43:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:43:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD16BD6.000039.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Ok for the Muslims to do the same thing? -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/22/2010 11:28:57 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group The Skeptoid article reminds me of a Richard Harris recording of "There Are Too Many Saviors Upon My Cross". The basic premise of the recording was that Jesus doesn't appreciate people forming religion in to bullets to shoot into the hearts of men. The specific context is the problems in Northern Ireland, but it can apply to the world as a whole. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] nazi, christian-hating, [...] > > I recalled this curious juxtaposition and recalled some info I'd read a while back that actually renders the comma-ified connection suggested above to be more than curiously spurious. > > http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm > > A more general expose on the matter, including references to much of the same material covered here by Don, Mike, David, Holly, Walt, etc. I discovered at: > > http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/3b1f0351/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 06:39:59 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 06:39:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast idol"? Can someone please translate? -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to >> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the >> ten commandments from courthouses. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want > to publish them in courthouses? > > I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce > these. > > Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers > where they appear to fit. > > David > > Exodus 34:11-28 > Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the > Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and > the Jebusites. > #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to > which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear > down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* > (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is > Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the > inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods > and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you > will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their > daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to > their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. > > #2. You shall not make cast idols. > > #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you > shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in > the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. > > #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the > firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem > with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All > the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. > > #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. > > #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; > even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. > > #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat > harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. > #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord > God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and > enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to > appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. > > #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the > sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the > morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to > the house of the Lord your God. > > #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. > > The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words > I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the > Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank > water. > > And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten > commandments.* > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 08:17:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:17:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) In-Reply-To: <4BD14FEC.00000F.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <049201cae25f$ed3b7df0$c7b279d0$@com> <4BD14FEC.00000F.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: > > The ten commandments Moses brought down from the mountain was God's > law, God > s law for all of mankind. > > It is historically ridiculous to equate the ten commandments with any > religion at all, it was a set of laws, perhaps the first written > set of laws > for mankind, but nothing more. Check out Hammurabi, Ur-Nammu and their predecessors in the Fertile Crescent. Codes of laws were fairly common in the ancient Middle East. The Hebrews were latecomers, and imitators, not originators. WW From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 08:22:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:22:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD15641.000013.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> <04c901cae27d$5546c090$ffd441b0$@com> <4BD15641.000013.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9A7E5580-26DC-41EB-BA80-C4D415817F65@teleport.com> And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh! Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW On Apr 23, 2010, at 1:11 AM, donkelly wrote: > He might just be right Jeff. If enough Muslims were in the US > Military, they > could disrupt defense, even paralyzed the military. > > You need to read again the creed of Muslims, which is to conquer > the world > and install Sharia Law. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/22/2010 5:38:51 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . > > Bob, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bob Browning >> >> Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited >> Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a >> raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I wonder what this clown thinks the 10,000 or so Muslims in the US > military > ought to think of his position on the matter? I suppose he thinks > they > should probably not be in the US military and are probably all > terrorists. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 08:29:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> > > And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. > Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then > everyone > interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. > > The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and implacable people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected President. While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering to the obsessions of the fringe. WW From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Apr 23 08:29:47 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . In-Reply-To: <9A7E5580-26DC-41EB-BA80-C4D415817F65@teleport.com> References: <4BD0DDF4.1020604@jurislex.com> <04c901cae27d$5546c090$ffd441b0$@com> <4BD15641.000013.03252@DON-B2514E06367> <9A7E5580-26DC-41EB-BA80-C4D415817F65@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3B3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Bingo. This kind of claim has all the paranoid markings of the "Dolchsto?" myth perpetuated by a certain German political party regarding the country's loss in WWI. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:23 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh! Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 08:33:18 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:33:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> "Cast idol" refers to the metalworking technique-- casting with molten metal rather than forging, cf. the "Golden Calf." in King James you also run across "molten image," which is the same. On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of > "Thou > shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? > > And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast > idol"? > Can someone please translate? > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > >> >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who >>> wanted to >>> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to >>> remove the >>> ten commandments from courthouses. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes >> you want >> to publish them in courthouses? >> >> I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce >> these. >> >> Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the >> numbers >> where they appear to fit. >> >> David >> >> Exodus 34:11-28 >> Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you >> the >> Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the >> Hivites, and >> the Jebusites. >> #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the >> land to >> which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You >> shall tear >> down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred >> poles* >> (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is >> Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the >> inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to >> their gods >> and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, >> and you >> will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their >> daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute >> themselves to >> their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their >> gods. >> >> #2. You shall not make cast idols. >> >> #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven >> days you >> shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time >> appointed in >> the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. >> >> #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* >> livestock, the >> firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall >> redeem >> with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its >> neck. All >> the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. >> >> #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. >> >> #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall >> rest; >> even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. >> >> #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of >> wheat >> harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. >> #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the >> Lord >> God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and >> enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to >> appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. >> >> #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and >> the >> sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the >> morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall >> bring to >> the house of the Lord your God. >> >> #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. >> >> The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with >> these words >> I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there >> with the >> Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank >> water. >> >> And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten >> commandments.* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 23 08:35:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:35:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD1BE33.9080506@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ba4f7b03/attachment-0001.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Apr 23 08:37:15 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:37:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> <0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Walt wrote: No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and implacable people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected President. While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering to the obsessions of the fringe. WW This ad nauseum exchange made me think of an experience I had a while back. I had a student years ago who was in my office narrating a litany of deeply disturbing personal problems. She was shaking, trembling, etc. I knew I wasn't qualified to help her, so I called the counseling center, with her permission, and repeated her statements. The counselor listened carefully, then asked a question that has stuck with me ever since: "Is she responding to invisible stimuli?" She wasn't, as it turned out. But the question has stayed with me. The question is pertinent for some behaviors today in the political arena. --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 23 08:37:18 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BD1BEAE.5000403@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/c6efab1c/attachment.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 08:41:45 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:41:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> Message-ID: OK - so does that mean Christian's should not have all those statues of Jesus, Mary, etc? Christian religious symbolism may take on new meaning.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:33 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > "Cast idol" refers to the metalworking technique-- casting with > molten metal rather than forging, cf. the "Golden Calf." in King > James you also run across "molten image," which is the same. > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of >> "Thou >> shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? >> >> And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast >> idol"? >> Can someone please translate? >> >> -Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "David Morelli" >> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM >> To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes >> >>> >>> >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>>> < >>>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >>> >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>>> < >>>> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who >>>> wanted to >>>> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to >>>> remove the >>>> ten commandments from courthouses. >>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>>> < >>> >>> I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes >>> you want >>> to publish them in courthouses? >>> >>> I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce >>> these. >>> >>> Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the >>> numbers >>> where they appear to fit. >>> >>> David >>> >>> Exodus 34:11-28 >>> Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you >>> the >>> Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the >>> Hivites, and >>> the Jebusites. >>> #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the >>> land to >>> which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You >>> shall tear >>> down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred >>> poles* >>> (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is >>> Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the >>> inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to >>> their gods >>> and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, >>> and you >>> will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their >>> daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute >>> themselves to >>> their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their >>> gods. >>> >>> #2. You shall not make cast idols. >>> >>> #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven >>> days you >>> shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time >>> appointed in >>> the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. >>> >>> #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* >>> livestock, the >>> firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall >>> redeem >>> with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its >>> neck. All >>> the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. >>> >>> #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. >>> >>> #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall >>> rest; >>> even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. >>> >>> #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of >>> wheat >>> harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. >>> #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the >>> Lord >>> God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and >>> enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to >>> appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. >>> >>> #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and >>> the >>> sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the >>> morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall >>> bring to >>> the house of the Lord your God. >>> >>> #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. >>> >>> The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with >>> these words >>> I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there >>> with the >>> Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank >>> water. >>> >>> And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten >>> commandments.* >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Apr 23 08:42:36 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:42:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BD1BFEC.9020805@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/d2bf5c1b/attachment.html From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 09:00:37 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thank you for posting the 10 Commandments, David, and for stimulating my brain as you so often do. I have reposted the 10 Commandments below this email because they're definitely worth taking a second look at, I think. You know, Don, now that I think about it, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for us all to take a giant step back and allow Christians to win this battle. Let them put the 10 Commandments in courthouses, and even and especially in public schools and daycare centers. Only I'd take this one step further. I'd give Christians this small victory, but only if they posted the 10 Commandments in their original Hebrew form -- just as Moshe brought them down from Mt. Sinai. Then, in order to fully understand and begin living by the 10 Commandments, those very Christians would be forced to enroll their children in public schools--even if and especially if they didn't want to. As minimum academic requirements, children would be required to become fluent in Hebrew and become scholars in the teachings of Judaism -- because they'd need to do this at a minimum before they could even begin to understand, much less live by, the original 10 Commandments that Moshe brought down from Mt. Sinai. In addition to these minimum requirements, students would be required to learn about religious evolutionary history and how Judaism evolved from Paganism, as well as the historic influences that caused them to take steps away from Pagan teachings. In turn, not only Christian children but all American children--no matter what their religion or lack thereof--would be required to learn details about how Christianity and Islam and many, many other ideologies evolved from both Paganism and Judaism. They'd have to learn not only how these evolutions occurred--they'd have to learn about why those evolutions occurred from a historical perspective. They'd have to learn about how centuries of passed-down mythologies influenced the writings conveyed in the Jewish Torah, the Christian Bible, and the Islamic Koran, not to mention the scriptures of many other ideologies that were influenced by Judaism and Paganism. They'd begin to see huge connections between those mythologies and the writings within the world's most revered holy scriptures including the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, and many, many others. Their eyes would likely open to a lot of very new (but very ancient) ideas. Hmm...this could begin to feel very, very scary for some people. Particularly a lion's share of their parents. For a while, out of their love for us, our children would continue to live with us as they have in the past, in spite of the ways that their eyes have been opened. They'd watch TV on Sundays, eat cheeseburgers, and hang out with pretty much anyone they felt like hanging out with. But, over time, their new knowledge and teachings would begin to change their belief systems. This change in their belief systems would require us, their parents, to change big time in order for our children to continue "covenanting" with us and others around them. Otherwise, they'd be in severe violation of the First Commandment, right? They'd eventually start coming home from school to tell us that it was time we stopped celebrating Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, not to mention Thanksgiving (all that whipping cream over pumpkin pie mixed in the same meal with roast turkey and gravy would never do). There'd be a lot of blood on people's doors and a lot of horrible-sounding bleating in the streets. We'd have to start keeping kosher and celebrating Passover. Food would be lots more expensive. We'd have to stop watching sports programming or "reality" TV on Sundays because even getting up to switch on the TV would be forbidden -- even though most of those unaware of Jewish practices do not consider TV watching to be "work". According to the new laws posted in courthouses and schools, the real definition of "work" would totally change for us. There'd, by the way, be no radio listening, computer touching or viewing, texting, telephone talking, or even lightswitch touchings. And, believe me, all these new requirements would be just the tip of the iceberg. In short, once and for all, those children of those Christians (and everyone else's children as well) would have to start walking the talk of those Christians who are fighting to post the 10 Commandments in courthouses and other public places. Because, otherwise, hanging up the 10 Commandments in courthouses would be just meaningless and symbolic lip service, now wouldn't it? BTW Don: I am far from an atheist. I simply don't revere the same god as you or buy into some of the more fundamentalist, extreme, dangerous aspects of Christianity. It is because of my respect for the importance of religious freedom that I want to keep any scriptures or covenants or symbols connected with any religion out of courthouses and public places. I'd take the Christian Bible out of all courtrooms if I could. I think it's simply ludicrous to require Hindus, Moslems, devotees to other religions, or atheists to place their hands on the Christian Bible when they swear to be truthful before stepping up to testify in a court of law. I want to exclude all religious symbols, rules, and scriptures from courthouses not out of indifference or opposition to Christianity or its teachings. I want to do this because our forefathers and the higher power that I believe in have all repeatedly shown me the importance of a principle that I hold fundamentally sacred: the importance of religious tolerance. Holly ******************************************************************************************* > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the ten commandments from courthouses. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want to publish them in courthouses? I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce these. Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers where they appear to fit. David Exodus 34:11-28 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. #2. You shall not make cast idols. #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.* From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 09:24:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:24:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA@teleport.com> <4BD1BFEC.9020805@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BD1C9C9.000001.00640@DON-B2514E06367> OK Bob Sources please. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/23/2010 8:42:57 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes No problem as long as they are hand carved, but no plaster, acrylic, metal, etc., cast statues, and icons are okay, which takes out all of you iconoclasts!! bob "how long can Don keep this going?" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/23/2010 8:41 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: OK - so does that mean Christian's should not have all those statues of Jesus, Mary, etc? Christian religious symbolism may take on new meaning.... Marian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/935ed144/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 23 09:29:47 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:29:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) In-Reply-To: <4BD14FEC.00000F.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <4BD0A387.000040.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <049201cae25f$ed3b7df0$c7b279d0$@com> <4BD14FEC.00000F.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <058401cae302$3101ed10$9305c730$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Absolutely correct about the religion part Jeff (IMHO), but I > disagree with paragraph two because I think I have a gist of what > they were thinking. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< As you don't quote anything, I'm uncertain what bit of my response you're referring to as "paragraph two". ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If I have the right treaty and if I recall it correctly, the Pasha > received $60,000 a year from America in exchange for him not > interfering with American commerce in the Mediterranean. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It was a one-time payment of mostly physical items and some cash. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Finally, to revisit another few statements I disagree with, two of > which the ten commandments is a religious function, or the ten > commandments are equated to Christianity. > > As Snoops would say, FALSE. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's "Snopes", but I digress. The ten commandments are in the bible, the book that any that follow its teachings claim it gives them authority to do what they do. The "they" in that sentence refers to all manner of christians regardless of their particular flavor and label. The ten commandments do not show up in (unholy) other texts, at least not without reference to the original in the bible. They definitely (as you think of them) show up in other holy texts. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > First be clear that when I mention Christian Principals, I am not > addressing any certain religion, but am addressing all people in > America who follow good principals, believers or not, even Jews if > it at all applies, and if they don't mind being lumped in with us. >........God as a deity, not as any certain religion. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So if you're addressing all people in America who follow good principles, what specifically is the need to label those principles as "christian principles"? As someone that is not a christian yet find myself regularly choosing a higher road than many christians around me, I actually take offense to the notion that following good principles must somehow be defined as "christian principles". So, why the insistence on a narrow label that's unnecessary? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Moses led the people out of Egypt and 40 or so years later he > brought the ten commandments down from the mountain. > > Most of the people who followed Moses were Idolaters. > > They were not Jews either as the did not derive that name until > they founded Judea and scattered 12 tribes of Hebrews around the > country hundreds of years before Christ was born. > > There were no Christians either as Christianity was founded after > the birth of Christ 600 years later. > > The ten commandments Moses brought down from the mountain was God's > law, God s law for all of mankind. > > It is historically ridiculous to equate the ten commandments with > any religion at all, it was a set of laws, perhaps the first written > set of laws for mankind, but nothing more. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It was most certainly not the first written set of laws for "mankind" as it was understood at the time. Further, the ten commandments can't possibly be seen to make sense to be applied to all of mankind as there is lots of things that only make sense to Hebrews. The "source" of the ten commandments and that they predate the christianity movement is irrelevant to what they are today -- commands from a book used by christians today to worship. Jeff From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 09:38:19 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:38:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com><049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com><4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367><0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: I do like this quote (hey, it's even from an American), too: "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steele, Mike" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > Walt wrote: No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and implacable > people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" > that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected > President. > While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for > which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering > to the obsessions of the fringe. > WW > > This ad nauseum exchange made me think of an experience I had a while back. I had a student years ago who was in my office narrating a litany of deeply disturbing personal problems. She was shaking, trembling, etc. I knew I wasn't qualified to help her, so I called the counseling center, with her permission, and repeated her statements. The counselor listened carefully, then asked a question that has stuck with me ever since: "Is she responding to invisible stimuli?" > > She wasn't, as it turned out. > > But the question has stayed with me. > > The question is pertinent for some behaviors today in the political arena. > > --Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 09:40:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:40:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <127CB4BE-4D4A-4281-8397-24DA0E8FF864@teleport.com> Excellent posting, Holly... But requiring fundamentalists to do all that arduous, sweaty thinking and studying would probably start a rebellion! But I have a nasty, un- PC suspicion that their wanting to post their "preferred" version of the Ten Commandments in government buildings is not so much a desire to inspire the study of biblical law, but to "simplify" existing human law to the point that they don't have to think at all.... not reverence, nor even religious intolerance, so much as intellectual laziness. WW On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > > > Thank you for posting the 10 Commandments, David, and for > stimulating my brain as you so often do. I have reposted the 10 > Commandments below this email because they're definitely worth > taking a second look at, I think. > > You know, Don, now that I think about it, maybe it wouldn't be a > bad idea for us all to take a giant step back and allow Christians > to win this battle. Let them put the 10 Commandments in > courthouses, and even and especially in public schools and daycare > centers. Only I'd take this one step further. I'd give Christians > this small victory, but only if they posted the 10 Commandments in > their original Hebrew form -- just as Moshe brought them down from > Mt. Sinai. Then, in order to fully understand and begin living by > the 10 Commandments, those very Christians would be forced to > enroll their children in public schools--even if and especially if > they didn't want to. As minimum academic requirements, children > would be required to become fluent in Hebrew and become scholars in > the teachings of Judaism -- because they'd need to do this at a > minimum before they could even begin to understand, much less live > by, the original 10 Commandments that Moshe brought > down from Mt. Sinai. > > In addition to these minimum requirements, students would be > required to learn about religious evolutionary history and how > Judaism evolved from Paganism, as well as the historic influences > that caused them to take steps away from Pagan teachings. In turn, > not only Christian children but all American children--no matter > what their religion or lack thereof--would be required to learn > details about how Christianity and Islam and many, many other > ideologies evolved from both Paganism and Judaism. They'd have to > learn not only how these evolutions occurred--they'd have to learn > about why those evolutions occurred from a historical perspective. > They'd have to learn about how centuries of passed-down mythologies > influenced the writings conveyed in the Jewish Torah, the Christian > Bible, and the Islamic Koran, not to mention the scriptures of many > other ideologies that were influenced by Judaism and Paganism. > They'd begin to see huge connections between those > mythologies and the writings within the world's most revered holy > scriptures including the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, and many, > many others. Their eyes would likely open to a lot of very new (but > very ancient) ideas. > > Hmm...this could begin to feel very, very scary for some people. > Particularly a lion's share of their parents. > > For a while, out of their love for us, our children would continue > to live with us as they have in the past, in spite of the ways that > their eyes have been opened. They'd watch TV on Sundays, eat > cheeseburgers, and hang out with pretty much anyone they felt like > hanging out with. But, over time, their new knowledge and teachings > would begin to change their belief systems. This change in their > belief systems would require us, their parents, to change big time > in order for our children to continue "covenanting" with us and > others around them. Otherwise, they'd be in severe violation of > the First Commandment, right? They'd eventually start coming home > from school to tell us that it was time we stopped celebrating > Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, not to mention Thanksgiving (all > that whipping cream over pumpkin pie mixed in the same meal with > roast turkey and gravy would never do). There'd be a lot of blood > on people's doors and a lot of horrible-sounding > bleating in the streets. We'd have to start keeping kosher and > celebrating Passover. Food would be lots more > expensive. We'd have to stop watching sports programming or > "reality" TV on Sundays because even getting up to switch on the TV > would be forbidden -- even though most of those unaware of Jewish > practices do not consider TV watching to be "work". According to > the new laws posted in courthouses and schools, the real definition > of "work" would totally change for us. There'd, by the way, be no > radio listening, computer touching or viewing, texting, telephone > talking, or even lightswitch touchings. And, believe me, all these > new requirements would be just the tip of the iceberg. > > In short, once and for all, those children of those Christians (and > everyone else's children as well) would have to start walking the > talk of those Christians who are fighting to post the 10 > Commandments in > courthouses and other public places. Because, otherwise, hanging up > the 10 Commandments in courthouses would > be just meaningless and symbolic lip service, now wouldn't it? > > BTW Don: I am far from an atheist. I simply don't revere the same > god as you or buy into some of the more fundamentalist, extreme, > dangerous aspects of Christianity. It is because of my respect for > the importance of religious freedom that I want to keep any > scriptures or covenants or symbols connected with any religion out > of courthouses and public places. I'd take the Christian Bible out > of all courtrooms if I could. I think it's simply ludicrous to > require Hindus, Moslems, devotees to other religions, or atheists > to place their hands on the Christian Bible when they swear to be > truthful before stepping up to testify in a court of law. I want to > exclude all religious symbols, rules, and scriptures from > courthouses not out of indifference or opposition to Christianity > or its teachings. I want to do this because our forefathers and the > higher power that I believe in have all repeatedly shown me the > importance of a principle that I hold fundamentally > sacred: the importance of religious tolerance. > > Holly > > ********************************************************************** > ********************* >> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who >> wanted to keep God out of > everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the ten > commandments from courthouses. >> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you > want to publish them in courthouses? > > I honestly doubt that many > Americans want the court system to enforce these. > > Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the > numbers where they > appear to fit. > > David > > Exodus 34:11-28 > Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you > the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the > Hivites, and the Jebusites. > #1. > Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to > which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall > tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred > poles* (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose > name is Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant > with the > inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their > gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, > and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among > their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute > themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute > themselves > to their gods. > > #2. You shall not make cast idols. > > #3. > You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you > shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time > appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came > out from Egypt. > > #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* > livestock, the > firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall > redeem > with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. > All > the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. > > #5. No one shall > appear before me empty-handed. > > #6. For six days you shall work, > but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and > in harvest time you shall > rest. > > #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat > harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. > #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the > Lord > God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, > and enlarge your borders; no > one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord > your > God three times in the year. > > #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and > the sacrifice of the festival of the > passover shall not be left until the morning. The best of the first > fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your > God. > > #10. You > shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. > > The Lord said to > Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a > covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord for > forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. > > And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten > commandments.* > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 09:52:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:52:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com><049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com><4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367><0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Great aphorism! On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Geri wrote: > I do like this quote (hey, it's even from an American), too: > > "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a > confession of their character." > ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ > > > Geri > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > > >> Walt wrote: No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and >> implacable >> people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" >> that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected >> President. >> While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for >> which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering >> to the obsessions of the fringe. >> WW >> >> This ad nauseum exchange made me think of an experience I had a >> while back. I had a student years ago who was in my office >> narrating a litany of deeply disturbing personal problems. She >> was shaking, trembling, etc. I knew I wasn't qualified to help >> her, so I called the counseling center, with her permission, and >> repeated her statements. The counselor listened carefully, then >> asked a question that has stuck with me ever since: "Is she >> responding to invisible stimuli?" >> >> She wasn't, as it turned out. >> >> But the question has stayed with me. >> >> The question is pertinent for some behaviors today in the >> political arena. >> >> --Mike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 10:07:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:07:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com><049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com><4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367><0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BD1D3C6.00000D.00640@DON-B2514E06367> "A great indignation brings out all one's powers." "A man in debt is yet a slave" Ralph Waldo Emerson. Dem faith in Obama plunges as health-care details emerge While Americans generally took a breather from their increasing worry about losing freedoms under President Obama, Democrats over the last month actually began to express growing alarm as details of his health-care plan started to Find out the latest right now at WND.com. Plus! Plus! Federal agents invaded an Amish farm in Pennsylvania at 5 a.m. To inspect cow-milking facilities then followed up the next day with a written notice that the farmer was engaged in interstate sale of raw milk in violation of the Public Health Services Act. Click here for details. Picking on the Amish? Good show Mr. President. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/2875de67/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Fri Apr 23 09:52:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:52:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com><049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com><4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367><0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Great aphorism! On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Geri wrote: > I do like this quote (hey, it's even from an American), too: > > "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a > confession of their character." > ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ > > > Geri > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > > >> Walt wrote: No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and >> implacable >> people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" >> that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected >> President. >> While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for >> which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering >> to the obsessions of the fringe. >> WW >> >> This ad nauseum exchange made me think of an experience I had a >> while back. I had a student years ago who was in my office >> narrating a litany of deeply disturbing personal problems. She >> was shaking, trembling, etc. I knew I wasn't qualified to help >> her, so I called the counseling center, with her permission, and >> repeated her statements. The counselor listened carefully, then >> asked a question that has stuck with me ever since: "Is she >> responding to invisible stimuli?" >> >> She wasn't, as it turned out. >> >> But the question has stayed with me. >> >> The question is pertinent for some behaviors today in the >> political arena. >> >> --Mike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 10:23:50 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] the Pentagon and religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <245631.55756.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> The military also recognizes Paganism/Wicca as an official religion.? http://www.milpagan.org/??? http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yourlegalrights/a/Mil_Pagans.htm ? And after a long struggle Pagans who have died in service to the US are allowed to have THIER religious symbol put on their gravestones.? http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/04/wiccans_win_mil/ ? I get a little weary of Americans assuming everyone is like them - everyone is a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew.? The way I look at it, the Abrahamic religions have wrought a lot of suffering in this world.? Bring back that old - really old time - religion.? And thank the gods that we are allowed to practice the religion of our choice in this country unlike other places in the world where a "witch" can still be put to death or a woman stoned for even speakig up.? ? Happy May's a Coming! ? Alana --- On Fri, 4/23/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 56 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 8:35 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (donkelly) ???2. Re: Free fun for Families All week end! (donkelly) ???3. Re: It must be something in the water . . . . (donkelly) ???4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver??? Christian ? ? ? Law Student Group (donkelly) ???5. Re: Taxes (Marian Cakarnis) ???6. Re: "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) (Walt Wentz) ???7. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (Walt Wentz) ???8. Re: It must be something in the water . . . . (Walt Wentz) ???9. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (Steele, Mike) ? 10. Re: Taxes (Walt Wentz) ? 11. Re: Pickleball anyone? (Bob Browning) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:08:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD163A1.00002A.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, it looks like Obama's prayer censoring group get's the nod on this one Can't blame Obama directly, and can't blame the Pentagon that invites prayers in the pentagon. There is more news out today to make some people squirm. Attached because too long to post. Cheers Don??? -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/22/2010 4:38:50 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! Don't you just love to watch someone who is paranoid jump around trying to watch their front and their back at the same time!! bob "still seeking, but being tolerant in the meantime" browning PS: I am available to speak if they will pay my airfare and housing!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Army disinvites Graham to Pentagon Prayer Day By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer April 22, 2010 WASHINGTON ? Evangelist Franklin Graham's invitation to speak at a Pentagon prayer service has been rescinded because his comments about Islam were inappropriate, the Army said Thursday. Graham, the son of famed evangelist Billy Graham, in 2001 described Islam as evil. More recently, he has said he finds Islam offensive and wants Muslims to know that Jesus Christ died for their sins. Army spokesman Col. Tom Collins said Graham's remarks were "not appropriate. "We're an all-inclusive military," Collins said. "We honor all faiths. ... Our message to our service and civilian work force is about the need for diversity and appreciation of all faiths." The Military Religious Freedom Foundation had raised the objection to Graham s appearance, citing his past remarks about Islam. Collins said earlier this week that the invitation to attend the National Day of Prayer event at the Pentagon wasn't from the military but from the Colorado-based National Day of Prayer Task Force, which works with the Pentagon chaplain's office on the prayer event. As co-honorary chair of the task force, Graham was expected to be the lead speaker at the May 6 Pentagon service. Country singer Ricky Skaggs was expected to perform. Since Graham's invitation was rescinded, the task force has decided not to participate in the military prayer service, Collins said. The decision suggests a growing sensitivity in recent years among senior Pentagon officials to the divide between the U.S. military and Muslims. Graham attended a Pentagon prayer service in 2003, despite objections by Muslim groups. Graham said he regrets that the Army felt its decision was necessary. In a statement, Graham said he would continue to pray for the troops to "give them guidance, wisdom and protection as they serve this great country." Nihad Awad, national executive director of Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Graham's invitation would have sent entirely the wrong message" at a time when troops are stationed in Muslim nations. "Promoting one's own religious beliefs is something to be defended and encouraged, but other faiths should not be attacked or misrepresented in the process," Awad said. Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the prayer task force, said Wednesday that U.S leaders have called for a day of prayer during times of crisis since 1775 but the tradition is under attack. "Enough is enough," said Dobson, wife of conservative Christian leader James Dobson. "We at the National Day of Prayer Task Force ask the American people to defend the right to pray in the Pentagon." She called on President Barack Obama to appeal a ruling by a federal judge in Wisconsin last week that the National Day of Prayer was unconstitutional because it amounts to a call for religious action. The judge did not bar any observances until all appeals are exhausted. The Obama administration said Thursday it would appeal. Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation said Graham shouldn't have been invited in the first place. "I want to say this is a victory, but in a way it's a Pyrrhic victory because it shows how far this got," Weinstein said. "We're not exactly doing cartwheels." Weinstein said he hopes someone more "inclusive" will be invited to replace Graham. Collins said there was no word yet on who would lead the event. Associated Press writer Dan Elliott in Denver contributed to this report. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0003.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:10:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD1640E.00002E.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This sounds thoroughly interesting. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alana Graham Date: 4/22/2010 5:06:53 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! ? It's a busy weekend coming up with two big events for families!? Hope to see you at both!? Alana FAIRE IN THE GROVE? ? http://www.faireinthegrove.com/ Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon?s Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fifth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups?including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too ?The Medieval Faire has truly becowww.FaireInTheGrove.comme a Forest Grove activity:? an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city,? said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove. ?The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring.? At least 8,000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend.? There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day?s closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin?s grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday April 23, 3 pm to dusk, Saturday April 24, 10 am to dusk, Sunday April 25, 10 am to 3 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase.? See the website for all the details www FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. ****************************************** EARTH DAY FAMILY FUN FAIR! Saturday, April 24, noon to 5 p.m. Family Fun Fair will be held on the grounds of UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro Saturday, April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 p.m. followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact growgreener2010@ gmail.com. A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ef4c3058/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:40:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . To: ,??? "Forest Grove local interests list" ??? Message-ID: <4BD16B16.000036.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I doubt they will do that because it is not unconstitutional.? And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then everyone interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 3:00:28 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > From: Bob Browning > > Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's > citizenship to run in 2012 > > By The Associated Press > > > > April 22, 2010, 11:33AM > > PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would > require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate > if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election > bid. Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional.? ;) Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/abb23f0a/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:43:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in ??? CaseOver??? Christian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD16BD6.000039.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ok for the Muslims to do the same thing? -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/22/2010 11:28:57 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;? Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group The Skeptoid article reminds me of a Richard Harris recording of "There Are Too Many Saviors Upon My Cross". The basic premise of the recording was that Jesus doesn't appreciate people forming religion in to bullets to shoot into the hearts of men.? The specific context is the problems in Northern Ireland, but it can apply to the world as a whole. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] nazi, christian-hating, [...] > > I recalled this curious juxtaposition and recalled some info I'd read a while back that actually renders the comma-ified connection suggested above to be more than curiously spurious. > > http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm > > A more general expose on the matter, including references to much of the same material covered here by Don, Mike, David, Holly, Walt, etc. I discovered at: > > http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/3b1f0351/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 06:39:59 -0700 From: "Marian Cakarnis" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E at JeffVAIO> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; ??? reply-type=original WOW!? Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast idol"? Can someone please translate? -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to >> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the >> ten commandments from courthouses. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I need to know.? What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want > to publish them in courthouses? > > I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce > these. > > Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers > where they appear to fit. > > David > > Exodus 34:11-28 > Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the > Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and > the Jebusites. > #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to > which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.? You shall tear > down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* > (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is > Jealous, is a jealous God).? You shall not make a covenant with the > inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods > and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you > will eat of the sacrifice.? And you will take wives from among their > daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to > their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. > > #2.? You shall not make cast idols. > > #3.? You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you > shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in > the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. > > #4.? All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the > firstborn of cow and sheep.? The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem > with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All > the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. > > #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. > > #6.? For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; > even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. > > #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat > harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. > #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord > God, the God of Israel.? For I will cast out nations before you, and > enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to > appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. > > #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the > sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the > morning.? The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to > the house of the Lord your God. > > #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. > > The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words > I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.? He was there with the > Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank > water. > > And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten > commandments.* > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:17:48 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > The ten commandments Moses brought down from the mountain was God's? > law, God > s law for all of mankind. > > It is historically ridiculous to equate the ten commandments with any > religion at all, it was a set of laws, perhaps the first written? > set of laws > for mankind, but nothing more. Check out Hammurabi, Ur-Nammu and their predecessors in the Fertile? Crescent. Codes of laws were fairly common in the ancient Middle? East. The Hebrews were latecomers, and imitators, not originators. WW ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:22:45 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: <9A7E5580-26DC-41EB-BA80-C4D415817F65 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are? they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and? enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh!? Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious? paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW On Apr 23, 2010, at 1:11 AM, donkelly wrote: > He might just be right Jeff. If enough Muslims were in the US? > Military, they > could disrupt defense, even paralyzed the military. > > You need to read again the creed of Muslims, which is to conquer? > the world > and install Sharia Law. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/22/2010 5:38:51 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . > > Bob, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bob Browning >> >> Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited >> Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a >> raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I wonder what this clown thinks the 10,000 or so Muslims in the US? > military > ought to think of his position on the matter?? I suppose he thinks? > they > should probably not be in the US military and are probably all? > terrorists. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:35 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: <0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset=US-ASCII;??? delsp=yes;??? format=flowed > > And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. > Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then? > everyone > interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. > > The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and implacable? people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely? hoping to "prove"? that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected? President. While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for? which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering? to the obsessions of the fringe. WW ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:47 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3B3 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bingo.? This kind of claim has all the paranoid markings of the "Dolchsto?" myth perpetuated by a certain German political party regarding the country's loss in WWI. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:23 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are? they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and? enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh!? Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious? paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:33:18 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; ??? format=flowed "Cast idol" refers to the metalworking technique-- casting with? molten metal rather than forging, cf. the "Golden Calf." in King? James you also run across "molten image," which is the same. On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > WOW!? Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of? > "Thou > shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? > > And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast? > idol"? > Can someone please translate? > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > >> >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who? >>> wanted to >>> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to? >>> remove the >>> ten commandments from courthouses. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> I need to know.? What is it about the ten commandments that makes? >> you want >> to publish them in courthouses? >> >> I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce >> these. >> >> Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the? >> numbers >> where they appear to fit. >> >> David >> >> Exodus 34:11-28 >> Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you? >> the >> Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the? >> Hivites, and >> the Jebusites. >> #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the? >> land to >> which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.? You? >> shall tear >> down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred? >> poles* >> (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is >> Jealous, is a jealous God).? You shall not make a covenant with the >> inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to? >> their gods >> and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you,? >> and you >> will eat of the sacrifice.? And you will take wives from among their >> daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute? >> themselves to >> their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their? >> gods. >> >> #2.? You shall not make cast idols. >> >> #3.? You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven? >> days you >> shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time? >> appointed in >> the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. >> >> #4.? All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male*? >> livestock, the >> firstborn of cow and sheep.? The firstborn of a donkey you shall? >> redeem >> with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its? >> neck. All >> the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. >> >> #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. >> >> #6.? For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall? >> rest; >> even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. >> >> #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of? >> wheat >> harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. >> #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the? >> Lord >> God, the God of Israel.? For I will cast out nations before you, and >> enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to >> appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. >> >> #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and? >> the >> sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the >> morning.? The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall? >> bring to >> the house of the Lord your God. >> >> #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. >> >> The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with? >> these words >> I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.? He was there? >> with the >> Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank >> water. >> >> And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten >> commandments.* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:35:15 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <4BD1BE33.9080506 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ba4f7b03/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 56 **************************************** From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Apr 23 10:27:26 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:27:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D94EC25A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Holly...you actually want people to think? Use their minds independently? Not accept whatever it is that authority figures spoon feed to us? To actually see connections? To know something beyond one's tiny little orbit? Boy...what's the world comin' to? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:01 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Thank you for posting the 10 Commandments, David, and for stimulating my brain as you so often do. I have reposted the 10 Commandments below this email because they're definitely worth taking a second look at, I think. You know, Don, now that I think about it, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for us all to take a giant step back and allow Christians to win this battle. Let them put the 10 Commandments in courthouses, and even and especially in public schools and daycare centers. Only I'd take this one step further. I'd give Christians this small victory, but only if they posted the 10 Commandments in their original Hebrew form -- just as Moshe brought them down from Mt. Sinai. Then, in order to fully understand and begin living by the 10 Commandments, those very Christians would be forced to enroll their children in public schools--even if and especially if they didn't want to. As minimum academic requirements, children would be required to become fluent in Hebrew and become scholars in the teachings of Judaism -- because they'd need to do this at a minimum before they could even begin to understand, much less live by, the original 10 Commandments that Moshe brought down from Mt. Sinai. In addition to these minimum requirements, students would be required to learn about religious evolutionary history and how Judaism evolved from Paganism, as well as the historic influences that caused them to take steps away from Pagan teachings. In turn, not only Christian children but all American children--no matter what their religion or lack thereof--would be required to learn details about how Christianity and Islam and many, many other ideologies evolved from both Paganism and Judaism. They'd have to learn not only how these evolutions occurred--they'd have to learn about why those evolutions occurred from a historical perspective. They'd have to learn about how centuries of passed-down mythologies influenced the writings conveyed in the Jewish Torah, the Christian Bible, and the Islamic Koran, not to mention the scriptures of many other ideologies that were influenced by Judaism and Paganism. They'd begin to see huge connections between those mythologies and the writings within the world's most revered holy scriptures including the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, and many, many others. Their eyes would likely open to a lot of very new (but very ancient) ideas. Hmm...this could begin to feel very, very scary for some people. Particularly a lion's share of their parents. For a while, out of their love for us, our children would continue to live with us as they have in the past, in spite of the ways that their eyes have been opened. They'd watch TV on Sundays, eat cheeseburgers, and hang out with pretty much anyone they felt like hanging out with. But, over time, their new knowledge and teachings would begin to change their belief systems. This change in their belief systems would require us, their parents, to change big time in order for our children to continue "covenanting" with us and others around them. Otherwise, they'd be in severe violation of the First Commandment, right? They'd eventually start coming home from school to tell us that it was time we stopped celebrating Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, not to mention Thanksgiving (all that whipping cream over pumpkin pie mixed in the same meal with roast turkey and gravy would never do). There'd be a lot of blood on people's doors and a lot of horrible-sounding bleating in the streets. We'd have to start keeping kosher and celebrating Passover. Food would be lots more expensive. We'd have to stop watching sports programming or "reality" TV on Sundays because even getting up to switch on the TV would be forbidden -- even though most of those unaware of Jewish practices do not consider TV watching to be "work". According to the new laws posted in courthouses and schools, the real definition of "work" would totally change for us. There'd, by the way, be no radio listening, computer touching or viewing, texting, telephone talking, or even lightswitch touchings. And, believe me, all these new requirements would be just the tip of the iceberg. In short, once and for all, those children of those Christians (and everyone else's children as well) would have to start walking the talk of those Christians who are fighting to post the 10 Commandments in courthouses and other public places. Because, otherwise, hanging up the 10 Commandments in courthouses would be just meaningless and symbolic lip service, now wouldn't it? BTW Don: I am far from an atheist. I simply don't revere the same god as you or buy into some of the more fundamentalist, extreme, dangerous aspects of Christianity. It is because of my respect for the importance of religious freedom that I want to keep any scriptures or covenants or symbols connected with any religion out of courthouses and public places. I'd take the Christian Bible out of all courtrooms if I could. I think it's simply ludicrous to require Hindus, Moslems, devotees to other religions, or atheists to place their hands on the Christian Bible when they swear to be truthful before stepping up to testify in a court of law. I want to exclude all religious symbols, rules, and scriptures from courthouses not out of indifference or opposition to Christianity or its teachings. I want to do this because our forefathers and the higher power that I believe in have all repeatedly shown me the importance of a principle that I hold fundamentally sacred: the importance of religious tolerance. Holly ******************************************************************************************* > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the ten commandments from courthouses. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want to publish them in courthouses? I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce these. Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers where they appear to fit. David Exodus 34:11-28 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. #2. You shall not make cast idols. #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk. The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.* _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 10:50:12 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:50:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] the Pentagon and religion References: <245631.55756.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9CEB874DDF3C4CE8BD8619245698AA12@gerianehzkfhvy> Well-said, Alana. Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alana Graham" To: Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 10:23 AM Subject: [Grovenet] the Pentagon and religion The military also recognizes Paganism/Wicca as an official religion. http://www.milpagan.org/ http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yourlegalrights/a/Mil_Pagans.htm And after a long struggle Pagans who have died in service to the US are allowed to have THIER religious symbol put on their gravestones. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/04/wiccans_win_mil/ I get a little weary of Americans assuming everyone is like them - everyone is a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew. The way I look at it, the Abrahamic religions have wrought a lot of suffering in this world. Bring back that old - really old time - religion. And thank the gods that we are allowed to practice the religion of our choice in this country unlike other places in the world where a "witch" can still be put to death or a woman stoned for even speakig up. Happy May's a Coming! Alana --- On Fri, 4/23/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 56 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 8:35 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (donkelly) 2. Re: Free fun for Families All week end! (donkelly) 3. Re: It must be something in the water . . . . (donkelly) 4. Re: Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group (donkelly) 5. Re: Taxes (Marian Cakarnis) 6. Re: "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) (Walt Wentz) 7. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (Walt Wentz) 8. Re: It must be something in the water . . . . (Walt Wentz) 9. Re: The Pentagon and Christianity . . . (Steele, Mike) 10. Re: Taxes (Walt Wentz) 11. Re: Pickleball anyone? (Bob Browning) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:08:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD163A1.00002A.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, it looks like Obama's prayer censoring group get's the nod on this one Can't blame Obama directly, and can't blame the Pentagon that invites prayers in the pentagon. There is more news out today to make some people squirm. Attached because too long to post. Cheers Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/22/2010 4:38:50 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! Don't you just love to watch someone who is paranoid jump around trying to watch their front and their back at the same time!! bob "still seeking, but being tolerant in the meantime" browning PS: I am available to speak if they will pay my airfare and housing!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Army disinvites Graham to Pentagon Prayer Day By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer April 22, 2010 WASHINGTON ? Evangelist Franklin Graham's invitation to speak at a Pentagon prayer service has been rescinded because his comments about Islam were inappropriate, the Army said Thursday. Graham, the son of famed evangelist Billy Graham, in 2001 described Islam as evil. More recently, he has said he finds Islam offensive and wants Muslims to know that Jesus Christ died for their sins. Army spokesman Col. Tom Collins said Graham's remarks were "not appropriate. "We're an all-inclusive military," Collins said. "We honor all faiths. ... Our message to our service and civilian work force is about the need for diversity and appreciation of all faiths." The Military Religious Freedom Foundation had raised the objection to Graham s appearance, citing his past remarks about Islam. Collins said earlier this week that the invitation to attend the National Day of Prayer event at the Pentagon wasn't from the military but from the Colorado-based National Day of Prayer Task Force, which works with the Pentagon chaplain's office on the prayer event. As co-honorary chair of the task force, Graham was expected to be the lead speaker at the May 6 Pentagon service. Country singer Ricky Skaggs was expected to perform. Since Graham's invitation was rescinded, the task force has decided not to participate in the military prayer service, Collins said. The decision suggests a growing sensitivity in recent years among senior Pentagon officials to the divide between the U.S. military and Muslims. Graham attended a Pentagon prayer service in 2003, despite objections by Muslim groups. Graham said he regrets that the Army felt its decision was necessary. In a statement, Graham said he would continue to pray for the troops to "give them guidance, wisdom and protection as they serve this great country." Nihad Awad, national executive director of Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Graham's invitation would have sent entirely the wrong message" at a time when troops are stationed in Muslim nations. "Promoting one's own religious beliefs is something to be defended and encouraged, but other faiths should not be attacked or misrepresented in the process," Awad said. Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the prayer task force, said Wednesday that U.S leaders have called for a day of prayer during times of crisis since 1775 but the tradition is under attack. "Enough is enough," said Dobson, wife of conservative Christian leader James Dobson. "We at the National Day of Prayer Task Force ask the American people to defend the right to pray in the Pentagon." She called on President Barack Obama to appeal a ruling by a federal judge in Wisconsin last week that the National Day of Prayer was unconstitutional because it amounts to a call for religious action. The judge did not bar any observances until all appeals are exhausted. The Obama administration said Thursday it would appeal. Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation said Graham shouldn't have been invited in the first place. "I want to say this is a victory, but in a way it's a Pyrrhic victory because it shows how far this got," Weinstein said. "We're not exactly doing cartwheels." Weinstein said he hopes someone more "inclusive" will be invited to replace Graham. Collins said there was no word yet on who would lead the event. Associated Press writer Dan Elliott in Denver contributed to this report. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0003.gif -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/29345618/attachment-0001.ksh ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:10:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD1640E.00002E.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This sounds thoroughly interesting. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alana Graham Date: 4/22/2010 5:06:53 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Free fun for Families All week end! It's a busy weekend coming up with two big events for families! Hope to see you at both! Alana FAIRE IN THE GROVE http://www.faireinthegrove.com/ Pacific University History Department and the Shire of Dragon?s Mist of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) are proud to announce their fifth annual Medieval Faire and Tournament. For this one weekend, the clock will be turned back and the Grand Lodge will be transformed into a medieval village complete with demonstrations of fencing, archery, royal court protocol, medieval cooking, crafts, braiding, book-making and much more. There will also be medieval crafts for sale and entertainment by various groups?including singing, theatre, dance and, of course, the royal court. And certainly, medieval food will be available, too ?The Medieval Faire has truly becowww.FaireInTheGrove.comme a Forest Grove activity: an opportunity for Pacific University and the town to join together and provide an event that draws thousands to our city,? said Martha Rampton, professor of history at Pacific and founder of Faire in the Grove. ?The faire is educational, fun, and a good way to celebrate spring.? At least 8,000 people are expected to attend throughout the weekend. In addition to performances and demonstrations, there will be vendor booths where people can purchase a variety of items. Musical performances and other entertainment will be continuous throughout the weekend. There will be SCA members demonstrating medieval dancing, weaving, artwork (scribe work), costuming, history and even blacksmithing. One of the more exciting attractions will be a day-long medieval fighting tournament where knights, lords and possibly some ladies will don their armor and battle in a variety of martial styles for prizes and honor on the field of combat. Watching over the tournament will be a Baron and Baroness who will be holding court Saturday evening to award the tournament winners and recognize volunteers for their achievements. The general public is invited to view the court as part of the day?s closing ceremonies. The Medieval Faire and Tournament will take place on the beautiful grounds of McMenamin?s grand lodge at 3505 Pacific Ave. Forest Grove, Oregon on Friday April 23, 3 pm to dusk, Saturday April 24, 10 am to dusk, Sunday April 25, 10 am to 3 pm. It is free and open to the public; items and food will be available for purchase. See the website for all the details www FaireInTheGrove.com. Special thanks to the Elise Elliott Trust for partial funding. ****************************************** EARTH DAY FAMILY FUN FAIR! Saturday, April 24, noon to 5 p.m. Family Fun Fair will be held on the grounds of UUCCWC, 22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro Saturday, April 24th, from 12 noon to 5 p.m.. The fair will include a native plant sale, children's craft activities, information booths on gardening, community supported agriculture farms, a regional cannery, a raffle and a free garden seedling for each child! A Maypole dance - everyone invited to join in - starts at 12:30 p.m. followed by classic rock from the Cat House Band. Master Recyclers will be onsite to accept hard-to-recycle items that don't go in curb recycle bins?computers and accessories, printers, miscellaneous electronics, TVs, cell phones, household batteries, fluorescent bulbs, clean white block Styrofoam, and old child car seats. For questions about the recycling event, contact growgreener2010@ gmail.com. A panel discussion begins at 2 p.m. on "Growing and Thriving: Local Food Success Stories." Guest speakers include a community supported agriculture farmer, the owner of a regional fruit and vegetable cannery, and a regional food market produce buyer. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ef4c3058/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:40:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD16B16.000036.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I doubt they will do that because it is not unconstitutional. And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then everyone interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/22/2010 3:00:28 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > From: Bob Browning > > Arizona House votes to check President Barack Obama's > citizenship to run in 2012 > > By The Associated Press > > > > April 22, 2010, 11:33AM > > PHOENIX -- The Arizona House has approved a bill that would > require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate > if he hopes to be on the state's ballot for a re-election > bid. Watch the SCOTUS deem it unconstitutional. ;) Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/abb23f0a/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:43:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BD16BD6.000039.03252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ok for the Muslims to do the same thing? -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/22/2010 11:28:57 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group The Skeptoid article reminds me of a Richard Harris recording of "There Are Too Many Saviors Upon My Cross". The basic premise of the recording was that Jesus doesn't appreciate people forming religion in to bullets to shoot into the hearts of men. The specific context is the problems in Northern Ireland, but it can apply to the world as a whole. David On Apr 22, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Bob Browning >> >> [...] nazi, christian-hating, [...] > > I recalled this curious juxtaposition and recalled some info I'd read a while back that actually renders the comma-ified connection suggested above to be more than curiously spurious. > > http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm > > A more general expose on the matter, including references to much of the same material covered here by Don, Mike, David, Holly, Walt, etc. I discovered at: > > http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076 > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/3b1f0351/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 06:39:59 -0700 From: "Marian Cakarnis" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E at JeffVAIO> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast idol"? Can someone please translate? -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who wanted to >> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to remove the >> ten commandments from courthouses. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes you want > to publish them in courthouses? > > I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce > these. > > Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the numbers > where they appear to fit. > > David > > Exodus 34:11-28 > Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the > Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and > the Jebusites. > #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to > which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear > down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles* > (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is > Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the > inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods > and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you > will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their > daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to > their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods. > > #2. You shall not make cast idols. > > #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you > shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in > the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. > > #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* livestock, the > firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem > with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All > the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. > > #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. > > #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; > even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. > > #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat > harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. > #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord > God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and > enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to > appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. > > #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the > sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the > morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to > the house of the Lord your God. > > #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. > > The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words > I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the > Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank > water. > > And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten > commandments.* > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:17:48 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] "Christian Nation" claims (was: Taxes) To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > The ten commandments Moses brought down from the mountain was God's > law, God > s law for all of mankind. > > It is historically ridiculous to equate the ten commandments with any > religion at all, it was a set of laws, perhaps the first written > set of laws > for mankind, but nothing more. Check out Hammurabi, Ur-Nammu and their predecessors in the Fertile Crescent. Codes of laws were fairly common in the ancient Middle East. The Hebrews were latecomers, and imitators, not originators. WW ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:22:45 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <9A7E5580-26DC-41EB-BA80-C4D415817F65 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh! Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW On Apr 23, 2010, at 1:11 AM, donkelly wrote: > He might just be right Jeff. If enough Muslims were in the US > Military, they > could disrupt defense, even paralyzed the military. > > You need to read again the creed of Muslims, which is to conquer > the world > and install Sharia Law. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/22/2010 5:38:51 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . > > Bob, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bob Browning >> >> Well, here we go again. The Pentagon should not have invited >> Franklin Graham in the first place, but now they are getting a >> raft of scheisse from the religious right for the disinvitation!! >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I wonder what this clown thinks the 10,000 or so Muslims in the US > military > ought to think of his position on the matter? I suppose he thinks > they > should probably not be in the US military and are probably all > terrorists. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:35 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. > Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then > everyone > interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. > > The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. No, judging from the "interest," a bunch of loud and implacable people are just desperately, obsessively, insanely hoping to "prove" that our elected President is somehow, miraculously, not our elected President. While our elected President is concentrating on doing the work for which we hired him, not wasting his and the public's time pandering to the obsessions of the fringe. WW ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:47 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3B3 at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bingo. This kind of claim has all the paranoid markings of the "Dolchsto?" myth perpetuated by a certain German political party regarding the country's loss in WWI. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:23 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The Pentagon and Christianity . . . And there are lots of Japanese-Americans in the military too, so are they all just biding their time to get revenge for Hiroshima and enforce Shinto and the worship of the Emperor on us all? Sheesh! Ordinary vigilance is all very well, but racial and religious paranoia is likely to be self-fulfilling! WW ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:33:18 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <956E0EAD-00E7-461E-858C-4105845891BA at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed "Cast idol" refers to the metalworking technique-- casting with molten metal rather than forging, cf. the "Golden Calf." in King James you also run across "molten image," which is the same. On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of > "Thou > shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? > > And I don't quite understand what is meant by #2 - what is a "cast > idol"? > Can someone please translate? > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:17 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > >> >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> The first amendment was not intended to cater to atheists who >>> wanted to >>> keep God out of everything Dear to the American people, or to >>> remove the >>> ten commandments from courthouses. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> I need to know. What is it about the ten commandments that makes >> you want >> to publish them in courthouses? >> >> I honestly doubt that many Americans want the court system to enforce >> these. >> >> Since the count does not appear in the original, I have placed the >> numbers >> where they appear to fit. >> >> David >> >> Exodus 34:11-28 >> Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you >> the >> Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the >> Hivites, and >> the Jebusites. >> #1. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the >> land to >> which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You >> shall tear >> down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred >> poles* >> (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is >> Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the >> inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to >> their gods >> and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, >> and you >> will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their >> daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute >> themselves to >> their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their >> gods. >> >> #2. You shall not make cast idols. >> >> #3. You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven >> days you >> shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time >> appointed in >> the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt. >> >> #4. All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male* >> livestock, the >> firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall >> redeem >> with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its >> neck. All >> the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. >> >> #5. No one shall appear before me empty-handed. >> >> #6. For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall >> rest; >> even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest. >> >> #7. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of >> wheat >> harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. >> #8. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the >> Lord >> God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and >> enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to >> appear before the Lord your God three times in the year. >> >> #9. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and >> the >> sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the >> morning. The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall >> bring to >> the house of the Lord your God. >> >> #10. You shall not boil a kid in its mother?s milk. >> >> The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with >> these words >> I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there >> with the >> Lord for forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank >> water. >> >> And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten >> commandments.* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:35:15 -0700 From: Bob Browning Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <4BD1BE33.9080506 at jurislex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ba4f7b03/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 65, Issue 56 **************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 10:58:30 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:58:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: Bob Browning 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:35:15 -0700 Message-ID: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Leave it to the judge to try to find a way to put his left-handed monkey wrench to work. http://pickleball.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ea7c8509/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 11:46:21 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:46:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com><049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com><4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367><0BBE72D9-C19B-4F3E-B0ED-73C5EB63D15B@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D948F3CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <7A21832C-6312-47E2-9A63-D0B418EF6DFE@verizon.net> I'm going to pass this one along... Thanks. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Geri wrote: > "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a > confession of their character." > ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 11:58:31 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:58:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:46:21 -0700 Message-ID: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Katie; Here is another one to pass along too. "I pass with relief from the tossing sea of Cause and Theory to the firm ground of Result and fact." ~Winston Churchill~ ~A~ {:?) I'm going to pass this one along... Thanks. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Geri wrote: "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character." ??????~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/b7a34b01/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 12:07:55 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:07:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> Thanks Alan. That is a good one too. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Katie; > Here is another one to pass along too. > > "I pass with relief from the tossing sea of Cause and Theory to the > firm > ground of Result and fact." > ~Winston Churchill~ > > ~A~ {:?) > > I'm going to pass this one along... > Thanks. > Katie > On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Geri wrote: > "People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a > confession of their character." > ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~ > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 12:13:07 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:13:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:07:55 -0700 Message-ID: <894-4BD1F143-6154@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Katie.. might as well keep it going... here's another.. "A fool ... is a man who never tried an experiment in his life." ~Erasmus Darwin~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/d6770fdf/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 12:41:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:41:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BD1F7E2.000020.00640@DON-B2514E06367> Good one Hoss. Do you have a good one about folks who have eyes, but cannot see a mountain falling? Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 4/23/2010 11:58:44 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/80a45936/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 12:46:13 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:46:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:41:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <893-4BD1F905-7931@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don... any particular mountain in mind? ~A~{:?) Good one Hoss. Do you have a good one about folks who have eyes, but cannot see a mountain falling? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/d626544f/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 12:58:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:58:58 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> TARP FOREVER ANYONE? Another mountain known as TARP (more frauds) is about to fall, but Americans can stop it. Don As you know, Reed-Pelosi-Obama are planning to vote and Of course, pass the Financial Reform bill which will give us TARP forever this weekend. There are Republicans who are Not firmly against it yet. I have sent letters and emails to our State non-representatives, but never works. So I am asking that you join me in Emailing the following senators: Bob Bennett, Nevada http://bennett.senate.gov/public Susan Collins,AR http://collins.senate.gov/public Chris Bond, http://bond.senate.gov/public Saxby Chambliss,AL, http://chambliss.senate.gov/public Bob Corker,UT, http://corker.senate.gov/public John McCain,AZ, http://mccain.senate.gov/public Olympia Snowe,ME, http://snowe.senate.gov/public Scott Brown, MA, http://brown.senate.gov/public -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/ec33e8f9/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 12:59:02 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:59:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] there must be something in the water In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:41:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <892-4BD1FC06-9350@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don... How about a letter circa 1801 from Charles Lamb to William Wordsworth.. "Being separate from the pleasure of your company, I don't much care if I never see another mountain in my life." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/8bd56cb1/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Apr 23 13:01:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:01:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] there must be something in the water References: <892-4BD1FC06-9350@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BD1FCAF.00002C.00640@DON-B2514E06367> Your mountain is practically guaranteed not to fall Alan. See you soon as I can get out. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 4/23/2010 12:59:15 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] there must be something in the water ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100423/d6449435/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 13:05:46 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:05:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] there must be something in the water In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:01:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <897-4BD1FD9A-2913@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don.. better be safe and bring Mae West just to be on the safe side. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/f79131a9/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Apr 23 13:09:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:09:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] there must be something in the water In-Reply-To: RosesFromHoss@webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)'s message of Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:05:46 -0700 Message-ID: <896-4BD1FE8F-3943@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> speaking of a safe side... if I don't keep my mind on my cribbage game, I may need a doctor instead a judge. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100423/14a32a36/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Apr 23 13:41:00 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:41:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > TARP FOREVER ANYONE? > > As you know, Reed-Pelosi-Obama are planning to vote and of course, > pass the Financial Reform bill which will give us TARP forever this > weekend. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Calling it "TARP forever" indicates you don't really understand what the bill is about and how it works. Here's some light reading for you: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/apr/21/fact-checking-cl aims-about-financial-reform/ http://factcheck.org/2010/04/the-bailout-bill/ If anything, the elements of the bill related to failed institutions puts measures in place, free from tax payer funding, to actually avoid bailouts in the future. Jeff From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 14:32:51 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called:?? "Why we don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin.? Using logic, Carlin proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3.? My other favorite explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" by Eddie Izzard.? ? And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God"?by Robin Wright?- didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am getting a lot out of it.? I wish someone else would read it too though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! ? http://www.evolutionofgod.net/??????????? Happy Friday!? Alana ? From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 15:15:50 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:15:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" In-Reply-To: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What were the three that George boiled it down to? I could come up with: Be honest. Be kind. And the third was a toss up between work hard and have fun. Both of those seem to be equally necessary for a good moral life to me. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called: "Why we > don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin. Using logic, Carlin > proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3. My other favorite > explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" > by Eddie Izzard. > > And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" > by Robin Wright - didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am > getting a lot out of it. I wish someone else would read it too > though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! > > http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ Happy Friday! Alana > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 15:45:07 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment In-Reply-To: References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <711473.16452.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> You'll find it near the bottom of this page, I believe, Katie. http://www.dvrbs.com/world/GeorgeCarlin-TheTenCommandments.htm Thanks George. You're astonishingly pertinent even in death, Man. Holly ________________________________ From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 3:15:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" What were the three that George boiled it down to? I could come up with: Be honest. Be kind. And the third was a toss up between work hard and have fun. Both of those seem to be equally necessary for a good moral life to me. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called: "Why we > don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin. Using logic, Carlin > proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3. My other favorite > explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" > by Eddie Izzard. > > And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" > by Robin Wright - didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am > getting a lot out of it. I wish someone else would read it too > though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! > > http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ Happy Friday! Alana > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 15:58:28 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:58:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment In-Reply-To: <711473.16452.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <711473.16452.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9BA7E863-B21B-40B9-9F1A-F5B24CDBF130@verizon.net> Yes, he is pretty good. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Holly T. wrote: > You'll find it near the bottom of this page, I believe, Katie. > > http://www.dvrbs.com/world/GeorgeCarlin-TheTenCommandments.htm > > Thanks George. You're astonishingly pertinent even in death, Man. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Katie Allnutt > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 3:15:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" > > What were the three that George boiled it down to? > I could come up with: > Be honest. > Be kind. > And the third was a toss up between work hard and have fun. Both of > those seem to be equally necessary for a good moral life to me. > > Katie > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > >> My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called: "Why we >> don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin. Using logic, Carlin >> proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3. My other favorite >> explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" >> by Eddie Izzard. >> >> And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" >> by Robin Wright - didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am >> getting a lot out of it. I wish someone else would read it too >> though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! >> >> http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ Happy Friday! Alana >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 17:34:49 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:34:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Lost & Found References: Message-ID: An old story, but I got a laugh when I read it. Lost & Found As the bus pulled away, I realized I had left my purse under the seat. Later I called the company and was relieved that the driver had found my bag. When I went to pick it up, several off-duty bus drivers surrounded me. One man handed me my pocketbook, two typewritten pages and a box containing the contents of my purse. "We're required to inventory lost wallets and purses," he explained. "I think you'll find everything there." As I started to put my belongings back into the pocketbook, the man continued, "I hope you don't mind if we watch. Even though we all tried, none of us could fit everything into your purse. And we'd like to see just how you do it." From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 17:49:45 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:49:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD159B7.00001D.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <492D4835-A839-48C8-9EE5-9924FA9C7610@verizon.net> <4BD159B7.00001D.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: No, the President candidates should be required to demonstrate that they meet the legal qualifications. And since Obama did that, although not to your personal standard, it isn't an issue. Especially since he qualified by birth location and by parentage. David On Apr 23, 2010, at 1:26 AM, donkelly wrote: > We in numerous instances have to show a certified copy of our long form birth certificate. > > Is the president so sacrosanct that he doesn't have to do the same thing as we have to do? > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 17:57:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:57:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD0A360.9070704@jurislex.com> <049f01cae267$2886c430$79944c90$@com> <4BD16B16.000036.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <366DBA75-7F2A-4D5B-88CA-2D0CA27B4685@verizon.net> On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:40 AM, donkelly wrote: > I doubt they will do that because it is not unconstitutional. > > And it is not over yet, but is just beginning. > > Before long a judge will order the hidden records unsealed. Then everyone interested will know what facts Obama is hiding from the public. > > The records must be pretty important, judging the interest. > > Don That is like saying "Survivor" presents terribly important cultural values because so many people are interested in watching it. The value of the records is small. The only important ones are the birth record of his mother. The fact that he is her son. The date of his birth. If you have any proof that his father and mother were legally married according to the laws of Hawaii at the time of his birth, then the Hawaiian record of his birth becomes germane. And since his birth has already been confirmed by the Hawaiian agency it isn't going to be a surprise. You are rattling an empty box. David From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Apr 23 17:58:57 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:58:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Supreme Court Arguments Turn Heated in CaseOver Christian Law Student Group In-Reply-To: <4BD16BD6.000039.03252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BCDD117.5030901@jurislex.com> <460736.47491.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4BCDE199.307@jurislex.com> <04b401cae274$70fd1b80$52f75280$@com> <812EB8B6-D98E-41AB-A43C-A5DA6E3518DA@verizon.net> <4BD16BD6.000039.03252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: No. David On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:43 AM, donkelly wrote: > Ok for the Muslims to do the same thing? > > ... > The basic premise of the recording was that Jesus doesn't appreciate people forming religion in to bullets to shoot into the hearts of men. The specific context is the problems in Northern Ireland, but it can apply to the world as a whole. > > David From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 24 00:17:14 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:17:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? > > ... > -Marian No, or at least it is very unlikely. The Bible is a collection of various stories and when the book of Exodus was collected there were multiple stories about Moses and Mount Sinai. So, in the final edition, there are three accounts of Moses going up on Sinai, each with a list of laws. Basically, Moses' complained to his father-in-law Jethro that he was spending too much time dealing with the petty squabbles of the Israelites. So, Jethro suggested that he establish leaders over the Israelites to settle their disputes and that he provide rules to guide their behavior. Moses set the leaders over the Israelites. Moses then went up the mountain and came back to give the leaders the "Thou Shalt Not..." rules. Moses then went up the mountain a second time and God told him detailed rules. These rules take up several chapters of the Book of Exodus. The rules covered how the tents were to be arranged, the vestments of priests, the Ark of Covenant, and rules of behavior. They were then written on two tablets and carried down from Sinai by Moses. After the incident of the Golden Calf, Moses broke the two tables, and killed many of the Israelites. Moses then went up the mountain a third time, and God dictated the Ten Commandments that I quoted earlier. The last set is the Ten Commandments that were "carved in stone", and they were carried in the Ark of Covenant. Jews today still follow these commandments. The feasts and festivals are followed, the meat and milk commandment became the rules for Kosher cooking, the rest on the Sabbath is rigorously practiced, and ( I suspect ) the commandment against making covenants with the non-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine is visible in the Israeli dealings with Palestinians. David From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 24 00:22:12 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:22:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <275444.67863.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting suggestion about providing education on religion. I believe that a lot of the people who want to post the "Ten Commandments" are unaware that the Bible provides a different ten, from the ten that most children learn. David On Apr 23, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Holly T. wrote: > Thank you for posting the 10 Commandments, David, and for stimulating my brain as you so often do. I have reposted the 10 Commandments below this email because they're definitely worth taking a second look at, I think > .... > Holly From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 01:14:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:14:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <711473.16452.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9BA7E863-B21B-40B9-9F1A-F5B24CDBF130@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD2A866.00000C.00252@DON-B2514E06367> Also the filthiest mouth I ever heard on TV. But also funny. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 04/23/10 15:58:43 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment Yes, he is pretty good. Katie On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Holly T. wrote: > You'll find it near the bottom of this page, I believe, Katie. > > http://www.dvrbs.com/world/GeorgeCarlin-TheTenCommandments.htm > > Thanks George. You're astonishingly pertinent even in death, Man. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Katie Allnutt > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 3:15:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" > > What were the three that George boiled it down to? > I could come up with: > Be honest. > Be kind. > And the third was a toss up between work hard and have fun. Both of > those seem to be equally necessary for a good moral life to me. > > Katie > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Alana Graham wrote: > >> My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called: "Why we >> don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin. Using logic, Carlin >> proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3. My other favorite >> explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" >> by Eddie Izzard. >> >> And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" >> by Robin Wright - didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am >> getting a lot out of it. I wish someone else would read it too >> though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! >> >> http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ Happy Friday! Alana >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/7d2a3da7/attachment.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 02:11:37 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:11:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Lost & Found References: Message-ID: <04BF3C62F7514919A62A78D9B4EAEEE8@gerianehzkfhvy> Makes sense to me. ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Morelli" To: "grovenet" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 5:34 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Lost & Found > An old story, but I got a laugh when I read it. > > Lost & Found > > As the bus pulled away, I realized I had left my purse under the seat. Later I called the company and was relieved that the driver had found my bag. When I went to pick it up, several off-duty bus drivers surrounded me. One man handed me my pocketbook, two typewritten pages and a box containing the contents of my purse. "We're required to inventory lost wallets and purses," he explained. "I think you'll find everything there." > > As I started to put my belongings back into the pocketbook, the man continued, "I hope you don't mind if we watch. Even though we all tried, none of us could fit everything into your purse. And we'd like to see just how you do it." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 02:15:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:15:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> Message-ID: <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> Oh, I understand it all right. I understand it too well. It's about plunging Americans deeper into debt, with no demonstrable monetary or social gains to show for it. Billions more taxes down the rat hole, more payoffs for his supporters and friends. It's not rocket science. I understand that perfectly Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 04/23/10 13:41:12 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > TARP FOREVER ANYONE? > > As you know, Reed-Pelosi-Obama are planning to vote and of course, > pass the Financial Reform bill which will give us TARP forever this > weekend. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Calling it "TARP forever" indicates you don't really understand what the bill is about and how it works. Here's some light reading for you: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/apr/21/fact-checking-cl aims-about-financial-reform/ http://factcheck.org/2010/04/the-bailout-bill/ If anything, the elements of the bill related to failed institutions puts measures in place, free from tax payer funding, to actually avoid bailouts in the future. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/8badd88f/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 24 07:01:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:01:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> Message-ID: Interesting! That would certainly explain the intransigence of the present Israeli government in dealing with the Palestinian Authority-- and with the US government. Those who the media generally term "hard-line" or "far-right" Israeli politicians may be selectively using the commandments to justify their intransigence. Shucks, some of them may actually be sincerely religious about it. Ditto, of course, for the Palestinian hard-liners. On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:17 AM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of >> "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? >> >> ... >> -Marian > > No, or at least it is very unlikely. The Bible is a collection of > various stories and when the book of Exodus was collected there > were multiple stories about Moses and Mount Sinai. So, in the > final edition, there are three accounts of Moses going up on Sinai, > each with a list of laws. > > Basically, Moses' complained to his father-in-law Jethro that he > was spending too much time dealing with the petty squabbles of the > Israelites. So, Jethro suggested that he establish leaders over > the Israelites to settle their disputes and that he provide rules > to guide their behavior. Moses set the leaders over the Israelites. > > Moses then went up the mountain and came back to give the leaders > the "Thou Shalt Not..." rules. > > Moses then went up the mountain a second time and God told him > detailed rules. These rules take up several chapters of the Book > of Exodus. The rules covered how the tents were to be arranged, > the vestments of priests, the Ark of Covenant, and rules of > behavior. They were then written on two tablets and carried down > from Sinai by Moses. > After the incident of the Golden Calf, Moses broke the two tables, > and killed many of the Israelites. > > Moses then went up the mountain a third time, and God dictated the > Ten Commandments that I quoted earlier. The last set is the Ten > Commandments that were "carved in stone", and they were carried in > the Ark of Covenant. > > Jews today still follow these commandments. The feasts and > festivals are followed, the meat and milk commandment became the > rules for Kosher cooking, the rest on the Sabbath is rigorously > practiced, and ( I suspect ) the commandment against making > covenants with the non-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine is > visible in the Israeli dealings with Palestinians. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 24 07:09:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:09:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment In-Reply-To: <4BD2A866.00000C.00252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <711473.16452.qm@web56102.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9BA7E863-B21B-40B9-9F1A-F5B24CDBF130@verizon.net> <4BD2A866.00000C.00252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <660456F1-9092-4B45-9F43-72084EDB0DA0@teleport.com> And a real mind-bender, too. "Why do they call them apart-ments when they're all stuck together?" I recall seeing the first "Sledge-O-Matic" spoof on TV, years and years ago. It was hysterical, outrageously over-the-top at that time. Carlin continued pushing the edge with stunts, gimmickry and language, mixing physical, mental and verbal comedy as few ever had before. On Apr 24, 2010, at 1:14 AM, donkelly wrote: > Also the filthiest mouth I ever heard on TV. But also funny. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 04/23/10 15:58:43 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] George's 3rd Commandment > > Yes, he is pretty good. > > Katie > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Holly T. wrote: > >> You'll find it near the bottom of this page, I believe, Katie. >> >> http://www.dvrbs.com/world/GeorgeCarlin-TheTenCommandments.htm >> >> Thanks George. You're astonishingly pertinent even in death, Man. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Katie Allnutt >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 3:15:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" >> >> What were the three that George boiled it down to? >> I could come up with: >> Be honest. >> Be kind. >> And the third was a toss up between work hard and have fun. Both of >> those seem to be equally necessary for a good moral life to me. >> >> Katie >> >> On Apr 23, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Alana Graham wrote: >> >>> My favorite bit about the 10 Commandments is called: "Why we >>> don't need 10 Commandments" by George Carlin. Using logic, Carlin >>> proposes that the 10 could be condensed into 3. My other favorite >>> explanation about the Judeo-Xtian Bible is from the DVD "Glorious" >>> by Eddie Izzard. >>> >>> And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" >>> by Robin Wright - didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am >>> getting a lot out of it. I wish someone else would read it too >>> though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! >>> >>> http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ Happy Friday! Alana >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 24 10:03:22 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:03:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> Message-ID: There is a lot of sincere spiritual belief involved there. In Israel, "kosher" is more than the hot dog contents. It is separate kitchens and utensils for meat products and milk products. It is allowing time for the milk to digest before eating the meat, and vice versa. A large fraction of the Israeli electorate has a high religious sentiment, which creates a high sensitivity in the Israeli government to religious covenants and commandments. Unfortunately, there is a large fraction of the Israeli population that do not share those religious sentiments. If the religion is tied to the government, and you don't like the religion, that would prevent you from exercising your sincere beliefs. You have to replace the government if you want to practice your sincere beliefs. That leads to a lot of revolutions. And that is part of the reason that a responsible government should stay away from having an official state religion. Better to have a government that allows all religions or opposes all religions. The states realized this and wrote into the Bill of Rights the provision that the government could not establish a state religion. That does raise the question about sincere belief in non spiritual questions. Does gravity really exist? May someone take property by force or fraud? Who "owns" children? Who "owns" land, water or resources? Who is responsible when someone is injured by the actions of others? Etc. David On Apr 24, 2010, at 7:01 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Interesting! That would certainly explain the intransigence of the present Israeli government in dealing with the Palestinian Authority-- and with the US government. Those who the media generally term "hard-line" or "far-right" Israeli politicians may be selectively using the commandments to justify their intransigence. > Shucks, some of them may actually be sincerely religious about it. > Ditto, of course, for the Palestinian hard-liners. From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Apr 24 11:26:07 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:26:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] NYT: Is marriage good for your health? - The New York Times - Today.msnbc.com Message-ID: <893-4BD337BF-9437@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> guess I should of figured that out after my health started to get much worse after my 2nd marriage, as a matter of fact it was not all that good before and after my first either. I just found out because of all my rubber necking I've a few c-spin cervical discs that need to fixed in the next week or two. My daughter says I'd be better off with a nurse-practitioner as a lady friend. I on the other-hand ... think it is probably already to late for that now anyway. "O" such a wicked way of life, and come to think about that Don, It probably not be a bad idea if my mountain came tumbling down soon, for then I'd have a good reason to bitch.... heck, I don't even think I've enough strength left to run and thump, and to check for soundness a stability anyway on any vieable lady anyway. "O" well time to get out my shawl, and ask the dawg to bring my slippers so I can sit out on the deck, and watch the sunshiny and blustery day breeze buy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100424/8924ea05/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36550380/ns/today-the_new_york_times/ From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 11:57:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] NYT: Is marriage good for your health? - The New YorkTimes -Today.msnbc.com References: <893-4BD337BF-9437@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BD33F1A.000001.03932@DON-B2514E06367> Enjoy your retirement the best way you can Hoss. Sunshine on your face makes you feel alive. Good luck with your surgeries, and may you hoe many a row in the future. Enjoy what you have, you earned it and now it is time to collect. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 4/24/2010 11:26:24 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] NYT: Is marriage good for your health? - The New YorkTimes -Today.msnbc.com ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/f4c47392/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat Apr 24 13:19:17 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 13:19:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Oh, I understand it all right. I understand it too well. It's about > plunging Americans deeper into debt, with no demonstrable monetary > or social gains to show for it. Billions more taxes down the rat > hole, more payoffs for his supporters and friends. It's not rocket > science. I understand that perfectly. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< We must be talking about something completely different then. The financial reform bill I've been looking at doesn't contain any taxes for individuals and doesn't use existing tax dollars to bail out failed institutions (that $50 billion you were talking about). No, the money used to bail out failed institutions is from a fund that's paid into by institutions based on the risk they take on. So, what financial reform bill are *you* looking at? Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Apr 24 14:26:25 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 14:26:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] NYT: Is marriage good for your health? - The New YorkTimes -Today.msnbc.com In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <6846-4BD36201-7352@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> time to collect what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100424/bb897df1/attachment.html From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 14:57:42 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> Message-ID: <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Great information, David, and your descriptions jive with my studies of Jewish history and accounts of the Moshe / 10 Commandment information I came to understand. However, what most people do not understand is that mainstream Judaism today is far from a fundamentalist religion. I was once told this by a Conservative Rabbi in Portland. Throughout the centuries since Moshe brought those tablets down from Mt. Sinai, Jewish people, in general, have learned that in order to survive during their past and present-day diasporas (dispersions) throughout the world--they have learned to assimilate into the societies in which they live. Ability to effectively assimilate while retaining their religious and cultural customers has been essential to their survival as a people. This means that, though many may practice orthodoxy as well as religious and cultural customs such as keeping kosher, I don't know of any groups -- no matter how orthodox -- who live in isolation from those who they feel forbidden to "covenant" with. This is simply not done today. Certainly, there might be a lot of religious, familial, and cultural pressure to not marry outside their faith for some groups of Jews. But, this is not a requirement to be considered a "good Jew" in most of the circles I've seen. I found it interesting to learn in my studies of Jewish history that the earliest Jews used to proselytize as Christians tend to do in order to increase their numbers. In the beginning of both of these patriarchical religions, Christians and Jews alike did not typically allow women amid their ranks; so they had to proselytize to increase their numbers. Women, at the time that both religions started, were considered by the Patriarchs as the source of evil. The story of Adam and Eve reflects this belief. This was largely because both religions were breaking away from Paganism, which was and still is a female-based religion that's largely based on reverence for all that is female--particularly Mother Earth. Women were thought to have supernatural powers because of their ability to give birth, just as Mother Earth was and still is revered for her ability to bring forth life in nature. It wasn't until the advent of animal and plant husbandry--which taught humankind that males played a role in procreation--that all of this changed. Once males figured out that they too had the power to create life, patriarchal religions immediately followed. To gain power and convince Pagans to join their ranks, Patriarchs needed ways to demonize and diminish the religious power of women in order for patriarchal religions to take hold. So a systematic annihilation of Goddess-based Pagan religions took place and still takes place today. Anyway, because of this historic perspective, many scholars believe that proselytizing was done by Jews in the beginning because of these historic influences--the exclusion of women and the subsequent need to proselytize to keep numbers growing and to keep followers from dying out. The same is true for Christians. By and large, just as with Jews, the early Christians were limited, for the most part, to men. And, the most basic Christian teachings elevated the status and power of men over women. Over time, with education and enlightenment, this has obviously and thankfully changed for both religions. Christians, by and large, however, have continued to increase their ranks by proselytizing. Jews, due to so many centuries of annihilation and persecution, have learned pretty quickly that proselytizing gets them killed. So, that's why you don't see Jews knocking on your doors to hand you literature that encourages them to join the fold. To answer your statement about why hardline or far-right Israeli politicians are taking unprecedented steps toward the Palestinians, Walt, I can only say that I don't believe that any of Israel's top politicians are hugely religious. Furthermore, most Israelis I have met are not orthodox or fundamentally extreme. I'm certain I do not have to tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex one. For the sake of my half-Israeli children and all of the wonderful Israeli people I have met in my life, I hope that that peace will someday come to this region. But, it's difficult when you're a nation that is surrounded by enemies with the sea on the one side and when so many of those enemies would like to see you annihilated. When I hear Americans criticize the Israeli government or military for taking a hard line against the Palestinians, I usually ask them, "Okay, if you're going to criticize or judge the Israelis, I want to see you give up your back yard to survivors of the Native American tribes who owned the land before our ancestors killed so many and took most of their land. I also want to see how you would react if you walked in the shoes of the Israeli people. Certainly, the same can be said for walking in the shoes of the Palestinians. But, until both sides are ready enough for peace to endure, it cannot even begin. How do you get to that special place in history? It's a very good question. Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 7:01:38 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Interesting! That would certainly explain the intransigence of the present Israeli government in dealing with the Palestinian Authority-- and with the US government. Those who the media generally term "hard-line" or "far-right" Israeli politicians may be selectively using the commandments to justify their intransigence. Shucks, some of them may actually be sincerely religious about it. Ditto, of course, for the Palestinian hard-liners. On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:17 AM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of >> "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? >> >> ... >> -Marian > > No, or at least it is very unlikely. The Bible is a collection of > various stories and when the book of Exodus was collected there > were multiple stories about Moses and Mount Sinai. So, in the > final edition, there are three accounts of Moses going up on Sinai, > each with a list of laws. > > Basically, Moses' complained to his father-in-law Jethro that he > was spending too much time dealing with the petty squabbles of the > Israelites. So, Jethro suggested that he establish leaders over > the Israelites to settle their disputes and that he provide rules > to guide their behavior. Moses set the leaders over the Israelites. > > Moses then went up the mountain and came back to give the leaders > the "Thou Shalt Not..." rules. > > Moses then went up the mountain a second time and God told him > detailed rules. These rules take up several chapters of the Book > of Exodus. The rules covered how the tents were to be arranged, > the vestments of priests, the Ark of Covenant, and rules of > behavior. They were then written on two tablets and carried down > from Sinai by Moses. > After the incident of the Golden Calf, Moses broke the two tables, > and killed many of the Israelites. > > Moses then went up the mountain a third time, and God dictated the > Ten Commandments that I quoted earlier. The last set is the Ten > Commandments that were "carved in stone", and they were carried in > the Ark of Covenant. > > Jews today still follow these commandments. The feasts and > festivals are followed, the meat and milk commandment became the > rules for Kosher cooking, the rest on the Sabbath is rigorously > practiced, and ( I suspect ) the commandment against making > covenants with the non-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine is > visible in the Israeli dealings with Palestinians. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 16:12:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:12:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> <014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com> Message-ID: <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> Obama's spread the wealth organization, TARP. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/24/2010 1:19:30 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Oh, I understand it all right. I understand it too well. It's about > plunging Americans deeper into debt, with no demonstrable monetary > or social gains to show for it. Billions more taxes down the rat > hole, more payoffs for his supporters and friends. It's not rocket > science. I understand that perfectly. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< We must be talking about something completely different then. The financial reform bill I've been looking at doesn't contain any taxes for individuals and doesn't use existing tax dollars to bail out failed institutions (that $50 billion you were talking about). No, the money used to bail out failed institutions is from a fund that's paid into by institutions based on the risk they take on. So, what financial reform bill are *you* looking at? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/3d7e35ee/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 24 16:31:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:31:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good overview of patriarchal religion, Holly! And indeed, how are we to have peace in the region when neither side is willing to budge? The Palestinian Authority, at least, seems somewhat pragmatic, but they also have to play to their "base" in order to offset the bloodthirsty appeal of Hamas. And Hamas, of course, is hopeless. They are "the men with the guns," so they are going to stay in power regardless-- but they cement their position by keeping the population of Gaza in a no-win, no-compromise box. Unfortunately that situation is inherently unstable, and must result in periodic explosions. And their relentless increase in population will steadily shorten the period between explosions. So what's the answer? I wish I knew. But whenever I contemplate the Middle East, I am more and more convinced that any government based upon the authority of any religion is doomed to disaster, and I am more grateful that our Founding Fathers resolutely resisted that ancient trap. WW On Apr 24, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Great information, David, and your descriptions jive with my > studies of Jewish history and accounts of the Moshe / 10 > Commandment information I came to understand. > > However, what most people do not understand is that mainstream > Judaism today is far from a fundamentalist religion. I was once > told this by a Conservative Rabbi in Portland. Throughout the > centuries since Moshe brought those tablets down from Mt. Sinai, > Jewish people, in general, have learned that in order to survive > during their past and present-day diasporas (dispersions) > throughout the world--they have learned to assimilate into the > societies in which they live. Ability to effectively assimilate > while retaining their religious and cultural customers has been > essential to their survival as a people. This means that, though > many may practice orthodoxy as well as religious and cultural > customs such as keeping kosher, I don't know of any groups -- no > matter how orthodox -- who live in isolation from those who they > feel forbidden to "covenant" with. This is simply not done today. > Certainly, there might be a lot of religious, familial, and > cultural pressure > to not marry outside their faith for some groups of Jews. But, > this is not a requirement to be considered a "good Jew" in most of > the circles I've seen. > > I found it interesting to learn in my studies of Jewish history > that the earliest Jews used to proselytize as Christians tend to do > in order to increase their numbers. In the beginning of both of > these patriarchical religions, Christians and Jews alike did not > typically allow women amid their ranks; so they had to proselytize > to increase their numbers. Women, at the time that both religions > started, were considered by the Patriarchs as the source of evil. > The story of Adam and Eve reflects this belief. This was largely > because both religions were breaking away from Paganism, which was > and still is a female-based religion that's largely based on > reverence for all that is female--particularly Mother Earth. Women > were thought to have supernatural powers because of their ability > to give birth, just as Mother Earth was and still is revered for > her ability to bring forth life in nature. It wasn't until the > advent of animal and plant husbandry--which taught > humankind that males played a role in procreation--that all of > this changed. Once males figured out that they too had the power to > create life, patriarchal religions immediately followed. To gain > power and convince Pagans to join their ranks, Patriarchs needed > ways to demonize and diminish the religious power of women in order > for patriarchal religions to take hold. So a systematic > annihilation of Goddess-based Pagan religions took place and still > takes place today. Anyway, because of this historic perspective, > many scholars believe that proselytizing was done by Jews in the > beginning because of these historic influences--the exclusion of > women and the subsequent need to proselytize to keep numbers > growing and to keep followers from dying out. The same is true for > Christians. By and large, just as with Jews, the early Christians > were limited, for the most part, to men. And, the most basic > Christian teachings elevated the status and power of men over > women. Over time, with education and enlightenment, this has > obviously and thankfully changed for both religions. Christians, by > and large, however, have continued to increase their ranks by > proselytizing. Jews, due to so many centuries of annihilation and > persecution, have learned pretty quickly that proselytizing gets > them killed. So, that's why you don't see Jews knocking on your > doors to hand you literature that encourages them to join the fold. > > To answer your statement about why hardline or far-right Israeli > politicians are taking unprecedented steps toward the Palestinians, > Walt, I can only say that I don't believe that any of Israel's top > politicians are hugely religious. Furthermore, most Israelis I have > met are not orthodox or fundamentally extreme. I'm certain I do not > have to tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex > one. For the sake of my half-Israeli children and all of the > wonderful Israeli people I have met in my life, I hope that that > peace will someday come to this region. But, it's difficult when > you're a nation that is surrounded by enemies with the sea on the > one side and when so many of those enemies would like to see you > annihilated. When I hear Americans criticize the Israeli government > or military for taking a hard line against the Palestinians, I > usually ask them, "Okay, if you're going to criticize or judge the > Israelis, I want to see you give up your > back yard to survivors of the Native American tribes who owned the > land before our ancestors killed so many and took most of their > land. I also want to see how you would react if you walked in the > shoes of the Israeli people. Certainly, the same can be said for > walking in the shoes of the Palestinians. But, until both sides are > ready enough for peace to endure, it cannot even begin. How do you > get to that special place in history? It's a very good question. > > Holly > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 7:01:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > Interesting! That would certainly explain the intransigence of the > present Israeli government in dealing with the Palestinian > Authority-- and with the US government. Those who the media generally > term "hard-line" or "far-right" Israeli politicians may be > selectively using the commandments to justify their intransigence. > Shucks, some of them may actually be sincerely religious about it. > Ditto, of course, for the Palestinian hard-liners. > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:17 AM, David Morelli wrote: > >> >> On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:39 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> WOW! Are these the original or root of the more common sayings of >>> "Thou shalt not lie/cheat/steal/covet etc."? >>> >>> ... >>> -Marian >> >> No, or at least it is very unlikely. The Bible is a collection of >> various stories and when the book of Exodus was collected there >> were multiple stories about Moses and Mount Sinai. So, in the >> final edition, there are three accounts of Moses going up on Sinai, >> each with a list of laws. >> >> Basically, Moses' complained to his father-in-law Jethro that he >> was spending too much time dealing with the petty squabbles of the >> Israelites. So, Jethro suggested that he establish leaders over >> the Israelites to settle their disputes and that he provide rules >> to guide their behavior. Moses set the leaders over the Israelites. >> >> Moses then went up the mountain and came back to give the leaders >> the "Thou Shalt Not..." rules. >> >> Moses then went up the mountain a second time and God told him >> detailed rules. These rules take up several chapters of the Book >> of Exodus. The rules covered how the tents were to be arranged, >> the vestments of priests, the Ark of Covenant, and rules of >> behavior. They were then written on two tablets and carried down >> from Sinai by Moses. >> After the incident of the Golden Calf, Moses broke the two tables, >> and killed many of the Israelites. >> >> Moses then went up the mountain a third time, and God dictated the >> Ten Commandments that I quoted earlier. The last set is the Ten >> Commandments that were "carved in stone", and they were carried in >> the Ark of Covenant. >> >> Jews today still follow these commandments. The feasts and >> festivals are followed, the meat and milk commandment became the >> rules for Kosher cooking, the rest on the Sabbath is rigorously >> practiced, and ( I suspect ) the commandment against making >> covenants with the non-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine is >> visible in the Israeli dealings with Palestinians. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Apr 24 16:33:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:33:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> <014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com> <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7B459D50-39FB-4BC9-9BCF-E290A39C1DD1@teleport.com> Um... I rather thought that TARP came about under "W"? Or did Obama have access to a time machine? On Apr 24, 2010, at 4:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > Obama's spread the wealth organization, TARP. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 4/24/2010 1:19:30 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > > Don, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >> Oh, I understand it all right. I understand it too well. It's about >> plunging Americans deeper into debt, with no demonstrable monetary >> or social gains to show for it. Billions more taxes down the rat >> hole, more payoffs for his supporters and friends. It's not rocket >> science. I understand that perfectly. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > We must be talking about something completely different then. The > financial > reform bill I've been looking at doesn't contain any taxes for > individuals > and doesn't use existing tax dollars to bail out failed > institutions (that > $50 billion you were talking about). No, the money used to bail > out failed > institutions is from a fund that's paid into by institutions based > on the > risk they take on. > > So, what financial reform bill are *you* looking at? > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat Apr 24 17:20:21 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:20:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> <014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com> <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <015d01cae40d$181fde90$485f9bb0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Obama's spread the wealth organization, TARP. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Oh, you mean the legislation that was written, passed, and signed by Bush before Obama took office? You mean the legislation that bailed out banks with billions of dollars of infused capital that's been mostly paid back? You mean the legislation that's created hundreds of thousands of jobs around the US and is credited with keeping us from going into another depression? Is that the program you're talking about? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 17:58:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:58:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net> <4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367> <006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com> <4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367> <014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com> <4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> <015d01cae40d$181fde90$485f9bb0$@com> Message-ID: <4BD39391.000027.03932@DON-B2514E06367> Mostly paid back? NOT Hundreds of thousands of jobs. You are mis-informed. Jobs saved is not the same as new jobs. And the relatively few real jobs created cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars. At that cost per job, (arguably approx $150,000 each job) we certainly don't need any more of those, do we? So the answer still is NOT. Saved from a recession? NOT Credited by whom, Obama? That just another lie. Perhaps some really good information would help. Even many congress people opine that the last TARP fraud was a failure.... except for all of the King's men who cried all the way to the bank. Whom are we to dispute that kind of success.....spreading of the wealth? Do you have any facts to discuss? Thanks Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 4/24/2010 5:20:32 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Obama's spread the wealth organization, TARP. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Oh, you mean the legislation that was written, passed, and signed by Bush before Obama took office? You mean the legislation that bailed out banks with billions of dollars of infused capital that's been mostly paid back? You mean the legislation that's created hundreds of thousands of jobs around the US and is credited with keeping us from going into another depression? Is that the program you're talking about? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/616766cd/attachment.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 18:39:02 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:39:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . References: <896-4BD1EDD7-3876@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><16719489-5C7A-436E-AB6B-AF1FAF2D9918@verizon.net><4BD1FBF7.000029.00640@DON-B2514E06367><006e01cae325$494eb330$dbec1990$@com><4BD2B6A6.000014.00252@DON-B2514E06367><014101cae3eb$6ada1fa0$408e5ee0$@com><4BD37AEB.00001E.03932@DON-B2514E06367> <7B459D50-39FB-4BC9-9BCF-E290A39C1DD1@teleport.com> Message-ID: Don't confuse him with the facts, Walt! ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Wentz" To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . > Um... I rather thought that TARP came about under "W"? Or did Obama > have access to a time machine? > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 4:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Obama's spread the wealth organization, TARP. >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Jeff Howden >> Date: 4/24/2010 1:19:30 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] It must be something in the water . . . . >> >> Don, >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >>> >>> Oh, I understand it all right. I understand it too well. It's about >>> plunging Americans deeper into debt, with no demonstrable monetary >>> or social gains to show for it. Billions more taxes down the rat >>> hole, more payoffs for his supporters and friends. It's not rocket >>> science. I understand that perfectly. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> >> We must be talking about something completely different then. The >> financial >> reform bill I've been looking at doesn't contain any taxes for >> individuals >> and doesn't use existing tax dollars to bail out failed >> institutions (that >> $50 billion you were talking about). No, the money used to bail >> out failed >> institutions is from a fund that's paid into by institutions based >> on the >> risk they take on. >> >> So, what financial reform bill are *you* looking at? >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet_____________________________________ >> __________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Apr 24 22:01:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:01:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I share your hope that we can get to a peaceful resolution of the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. And between Muslim and Jew in the Middle East. Minor quibble. The earliest Christians were in a patriarchal society and took many of their clues from their upbringing, however, there were women of status in the stories, their decline as leaders seems to match the rise of the bishops. Larger issue. I had to read your post twice, to realize that you were putting the Palestinian people into a position similar to the Native Americans. With the Israel's government in a position parallel to the American government. Or at least, you might have been doing that. I do see more historic support for that reading of the history, than I would see for putting the Jewish people living in Israel in a position parallel to Native Americans. David On Apr 24, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Holly T. wrote: > ... > To answer your statement about why hardline or far-right Israeli politicians are taking unprecedented steps toward the Palestinians, Walt, I can only say that I don't believe that any of Israel's top politicians are hugely religious. Furthermore, most Israelis I have met are not orthodox or fundamentally extreme. I'm certain I do not have to tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex one. For the sake of my half-Israeli children and all of the wonderful Israeli people I have met in my life, I hope that that peace will someday come to this region. But, it's difficult when you're a nation that is surrounded by enemies with the sea on the one side and when so many of those enemies would like to see you annihilated. When I hear Americans criticize the Israeli government or military for taking a hard line against the Palestinians, I usually ask them, "Okay, if you're going to criticize or judge the Israelis, I want to see you give up your > back yard to survivors of the Native American tribes who owned the land before our ancestors killed so many and took most of their land. I also want to see how you would react if you walked in the shoes of the Israeli people. Certainly, the same can be said for walking in the shoes of the Palestinians. But, until both sides are ready enough for peace to endure, it cannot even begin. How do you get to that special place in history? It's a very good question. > > Holly From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 22:44:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:44:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD3D6AF.000023.02524@DON-B2514E06367> I agree you all about the Israel situation. The last thing the world needs, or Israel needs, is a war III into which American men and women would conceivably be sucked in. Original Christians being patriarchal may be correct, but Original Hebrews it is suggested that they were matriarchal, moving into the Kings era, then gradually emerging as a patriarchal society. The background of the area being that for thousands of years all who lived there were constantly at war. As for comparisons with America, the racial makeup here in America would be that we were the Indians, and the emigrants would be Palestinian. The comparison is a fair one because the Hebrews were there 2,000 years or so before those, later known as Palestinians, emigrated to, or possibly invaded, Israel. It is said that the Roman leader gave the name Palestinian to them, the same word in the Roman language meaning invader. Ancient Palestinians under their original name were sea faring traders, inhabiting the coastline from Syria to Egypt, but whom also had inland trading settlements in Jordan, Arabia and Iraq, near the silk road. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100424/edbd72bd/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Apr 25 07:35:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:35:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert still occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position of the American Indians than any of the other factions. After WWII, as a flood of dispossessed Jews emigrated into the territory, the British made an idealistic but foredoomed effort to protect them from the intolerance of their new neighbors by partitioning Palestine. Hostility increased as the factions consolidated, and as soon as Israel declared itself a state, every Muslim state in the vicinity attacked it. They got their behinds handed to them, as they have in each subsequent attack, while Israel occupied more territory after every victory. I believe the present standoff between Israel and most of its former foes is more an example of frustrated Muslim machismo than of Arab super-nationalism, more of a reaction against Western modernity than religious fervor, on the part of adjacent nations. While the Palestinians, who have shown themselves as implacable as any nation, are basically the powerless patsies, kept in stateless limbo both because they are a dependable weapon against the Jews and an embarrassment to the modernist West, and also because no other nation wants them after their near-successful coup in Jordan some years ago. Far from being "a dispossessed nation," they are more a collection of armed gangs and helpless hangers-on, a loose cannon in the region for the foreseeable future. The Israelis, motivated by the powerful myth of God's special mandate for them and an understandable national paranoia, are not likely to ever allow any substantial return of Palestinians, even in exchange for peace, due to a reasonable apprehension of the high Palestinian birthrate overwhelming the Jewish identity of their nation. As for the Bedouins, the real aborigines in most of Palestine, they will remain a neglected minority, but probably are better off under the Israelis than the Palestinians. Anyhow, that's my story, and I'm NOT sticking to it, if a dependable and impartial authority is drawn to my attention. Walt On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I share your hope that we can get to a peaceful resolution of the > relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. And between Muslim > and Jew in the Middle East. > > Minor quibble. The earliest Christians were in a patriarchal > society and took many of their clues from their upbringing, > however, there were women of status in the stories, their decline > as leaders seems to match the rise of the bishops. > > Larger issue. I had to read your post twice, to realize that you > were putting the Palestinian people into a position similar to the > Native Americans. With the Israel's government in a position > parallel to the American government. Or at least, you might have > been doing that. > > I do see more historic support for that reading of the history, > than I would see for putting the Jewish people living in Israel in > a position parallel to Native Americans. > > David > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Holly T. wrote: > >> ... >> To answer your statement about why hardline or far-right Israeli >> politicians are taking unprecedented steps toward the >> Palestinians, Walt, I can only say that I don't believe that any >> of Israel's top politicians are hugely religious. Furthermore, >> most Israelis I have met are not orthodox or fundamentally >> extreme. I'm certain I do not have to tell you that the Israeli- >> Palestinian conflict is a complex one. For the sake of my half- >> Israeli children and all of the wonderful Israeli people I have >> met in my life, I hope that that peace will someday come to this >> region. But, it's difficult when you're a nation that is >> surrounded by enemies with the sea on the one side and when so >> many of those enemies would like to see you annihilated. When I >> hear Americans criticize the Israeli government or military for >> taking a hard line against the Palestinians, I usually ask them, >> "Okay, if you're going to criticize or judge the Israelis, I want >> to see you give up your >> back yard to survivors of the Native American tribes who owned the >> land before our ancestors killed so many and took most of their >> land. I also want to see how you would react if you walked in the >> shoes of the Israeli people. Certainly, the same can be said for >> walking in the shoes of the Palestinians. But, until both sides >> are ready enough for peace to endure, it cannot even begin. How do >> you get to that special place in history? It's a very good question. >> >> Holly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Apr 25 10:39:06 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:39:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says Message-ID: <19821-4BD47E3A-643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Good Morning -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: snapshot.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31287 bytes Desc: Video snapshot Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100425/c1f668c7/attachment.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 25 11:02:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:02:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (Forest Grove) TARP FRAUD Message-ID: <4BD483BE.000024.00880@DON-B2514E06367> Friends, please try to avoid confusing me by the facts. I made the statement that TARP funds were poured down a rat hole, so to speak, and that pay outs under TARP went to supporters of the president. Members fired back a shotgun defense, including blaming it on Bush, and unsupported by a single fact. http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2009/02/tarp-recipients-paid-out-114-m.html So here are the facts, the amounts President Obama's supporters received, and their relationships to the president. If you want to avoid confusing me, just stick to the facts. Numbers and relationships I understand, and I recognize a fraud when I see one. Have a great day all, and thank you for your unbiased input. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100425/dd0bae6c/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 25 11:17:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:17:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says References: <19821-4BD47E3A-643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BD48744.000027.00880@DON-B2514E06367> That's an image of the other HOSS. I liked him too. He was an outstanding debater in college, but later better known as a good actor. Cool Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 4/25/2010 10:39:23 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says Good Morning ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100425/cdc04466/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Sun Apr 25 12:06:07 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:06:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (Forest Grove) TARP FRAUD In-Reply-To: <4BD483BE.000024.00880@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BD483BE.000024.00880@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01ad01cae4aa$5cf3df60$16db9e20$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Friends, please try to avoid confusing me by the facts. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No, we wouldn't want to insert accurate info into the picture to possibly twist the story away from conspiracy into the realm of truth.... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I made the statement that TARP funds were poured down a rat hole, > so to speak, and that pay outs under TARP went to supporters of the > president. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yup, you sure did. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that most of the monies that were paid to financial institutions under the bailout have been repaid by those same financial institutions including interest and penalties for borrowing the money. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Members fired back a shotgun defense, including blaming it on Bush, > and unsupported by a single fact. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Nobody blamed it on Bush. They were correcting an inaccurate characterization of TARP being an Obama program when it very definitely was not. TARP was already in effect when he took office. In fact, nearly half of the TARP total funds available had already been handed out by the Bush Administration. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > So here are the facts, the amounts President Obama's supporters > received, and their relationships to the president. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< In the open secrets site, I don't see tons of information backing up that assertion. I see assertions as to TARP payouts vs lobbying dollars. It *is* politics after all so it's not surprising to see that there's lobbying dollars involved. Where the assertion falls on its face is claiming it's causative rather than merely correlative. The assumption of your causative assertion falls apart as these financial institutions repay the TARP funds. http://www.ibanknet.com/scripts/callreports/fiList.aspx?type=tarprepayment That doesn't mean there aren't banks that failed and took their TARP payment with them (the down the rat hole part of your claim). http://www.ibanknet.com/scripts/callreports/filist.aspx?type=failures Failures aside, even GM has managed to find a way to repay their entire TARP disbursement. http://www.enewspf.com/index.php/latest-news/latest-national/15833-gm-repays -treasury-loan-in-full-tarp-repayments-reach-186-billion I'm sure you'll be quick to dismiss that TARP may very well end up turning a profit instead of costing $76 billion original estimated. http://financialstability.gov/latest/tg_04022010.html A much more detailed, long-term analysis at: http://bailout.propublica.org/main/summary ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you want to avoid confusing me, just stick to the facts. Numbers > and relationships I understand, and I recognize a fraud when I see > one. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You recognize a fraud where you want to see one? Jeff From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Apr 25 12:21:26 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:21:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says References: <19821-4BD47E3A-643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4D2AB64D58314E6CA7CFCAB156270100@gerianehzkfhvy> Used to watch that show -- often with our grandpa -- when I was a kid... Hoss! ;-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Domenghini" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:39 AM Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says > Good Morning > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Apr 25 13:06:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:06:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BD4A0CB.000046.00880@DON-B2514E06367> I'll buy your message as is Walt. With a paucity of records of events in times past, we could never nail down all of the claws. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/25/2010 7:35:28 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert still occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position of the American Indians than any of the other factions. After WWII, as a flood of dispossessed Jews emigrated into the territory, the British made an idealistic but foredoomed effort to protect them from the intolerance of their new neighbors by partitioning Palestine. Hostility increased as the factions consolidated, and as soon as Israel declared itself a state, every Muslim state in the vicinity attacked it. They got their behinds handed to them, as they have in each subsequent attack, while Israel occupied more territory after every victory. I believe the present standoff between Israel and most of its former foes is more an example of frustrated Muslim machismo than of Arab super-nationalism, more of a reaction against Western modernity than religious fervor, on the part of adjacent nations. While the Palestinians, who have shown themselves as implacable as any nation, are basically the powerless patsies, kept in stateless limbo both because they are a dependable weapon against the Jews and an embarrassment to the modernist West, and also because no other nation wants them after their near-successful coup in Jordan some years ago. Far from being "a dispossessed nation," they are more a collection of armed gangs and helpless hangers-on, a loose cannon in the region for the foreseeable future. The Israelis, motivated by the powerful myth of God's special mandate for them and an understandable national paranoia, are not likely to ever allow any substantial return of Palestinians, even in exchange for peace, due to a reasonable apprehension of the high Palestinian birthrate overwhelming the Jewish identity of their nation. As for the Bedouins, the real aborigines in most of Palestine, they will remain a neglected minority, but probably are better off under the Israelis than the Palestinians. Anyhow, that's my story, and I'm NOT sticking to it, if a dependable and impartial authority is drawn to my attention. Walt On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I share your hope that we can get to a peaceful resolution of the > relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. And between Muslim > and Jew in the Middle East. > > Minor quibble. The earliest Christians were in a patriarchal > society and took many of their clues from their upbringing, > however, there were women of status in the stories, their decline > as leaders seems to match the rise of the bishops. > > Larger issue. I had to read your post twice, to realize that you > were putting the Palestinian people into a position similar to the > Native Americans. With the Israel's government in a position > parallel to the American government. Or at least, you might have > been doing that. > > I do see more historic support for that reading of the history, > than I would see for putting the Jewish people living in Israel in > a position parallel to Native Americans. > > David > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Holly T. wrote: > >> ... >> To answer your statement about why hardline or far-right Israeli >> politicians are taking unprecedented steps toward the >> Palestinians, Walt, I can only say that I don't believe that any >> of Israel's top politicians are hugely religious. Furthermore, >> most Israelis I have met are not orthodox or fundamentally >> extreme. I'm certain I do not have to tell you that the Israeli- >> Palestinian conflict is a complex one. For the sake of my half- >> Israeli children and all of the wonderful Israeli people I have >> met in my life, I hope that that peace will someday come to this >> region. But, it's difficult when you're a nation that is >> surrounded by enemies with the sea on the one side and when so >> many of those enemies would like to see you annihilated. When I >> hear Americans criticize the Israeli government or military for >> taking a hard line against the Palestinians, I usually ask them, >> "Okay, if you're going to criticize or judge the Israelis, I want >> to see you give up your >> back yard to survivors of the Native American tribes who owned the >> land before our ancestors killed so many and took most of their >> land. I also want to see how you would react if you walked in the >> shoes of the Israeli people. Certainly, the same can be said for >> walking in the shoes of the Palestinians. But, until both sides >> are ready enough for peace to endure, it cannot even begin. How do >> you get to that special place in history? It's a very good question. >> >> Holly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100425/c6ced81a/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 25 19:09:41 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:09:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an OleHoss says In-Reply-To: <19821-4BD47E3A-643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <19821-4BD47E3A-643@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <0B6E44E7-6AD5-4FB9-A4AA-D2E03AACE659@verizon.net> Ah yes, the owner of Dan Blocker Racing Team. David On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Good Morning > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Apr 25 22:39:23 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:39:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> Message-ID: <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The people who lived there would be have the current name of Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in Canaan. http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even though they remained there. After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. Existing population retains land. 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and pay taxes ). 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the "Zionist" name. 1902 second wave of immigration. 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local people were ignored. 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to immigration. 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza as a separate nation. Fighting starts. http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan when king David conquered the land. There were people living in Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned Canaan for Egypt. The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. David Following the On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert still occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Apr 26 00:26:18 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 00:26:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] 10 Commandments and the "Evolution of God" In-Reply-To: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <868983.42945.qm@web55602.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cae511$c3b03430$4b109c90$@com> Alana, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Alana Graham > > And currently I am reading a book entitled "The Evolution of God" >?by Robin Wright?- didn't get great reviews on Amazon but I am > getting a lot out of it.? I wish someone else would read it too > though as I'd love to have someone to discuss it with! > > http://www.evolutionofgod.net/ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I added it to my book list. I hope to pick it up and give it a read in the coming weeks. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 26 08:05:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:05:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> Thanks, David! DNA, at least, offers fairly cut-and-dried evidence. How the evidence is interpreted may still leave some disputes open, but still it's an improvement. How much of the Old Testament can be accepted as history, however, and how much as eponymous tribal myth, remains to be discovered. It seems reasonable that Jews and Canaanites would share genetic history, although the genocides recounted in the Old Testament-- if all of them actually happened-- might have extinguished many lines of descent. Hungry nomads from the hills or the deserts have conquered and displaced cultured people of the river valleys since the dawn of time, and a claim based on ancestral ownership is futile. If DNA analysis could be made on human remains dating from the Hebrew conquest, the genetic history might be more complicated. It might be that Jews and Palestinians share a common descent simply because everyone else was killed-- or, if all males were killed and the females enslaved (Joshuah seemed particularly fond of that scenario), the Y lines would become homogeneous. If research could be done on the mitachondrial line, passed down through females, more details might become clear. I remain deeply skeptical, however, of any nation that claims property by virtue of a god's authority. Unless they can produce a quitclaim deed signed by said god, I would be of the pragmatic opinion that anyone born of parents living on their own land has a right to that land. Meaning that many older Palestinians living in exile, do, in my opinion, have a real claim to property in Israel, and should at least be eligible for reparations-- but their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren (born in exile through no fault of their own) had best accept the facts on the ground and put down new roots where they can, rather than cling to the fantasy of "driving the Jews into the sea" and laying claim to "grandfather's mansion in Jerusalem." I rather doubt that there ever were enough grandfather's mansions to go around anyhow-- and even if every Jew were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today. WW On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The > people who lived there would be have the current name of > Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from > other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which > indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in Canaan. > http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion > http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html > > > My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan > ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The > territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. > After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for > Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to > the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even > though they remained there. > After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the > Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the > territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. > The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of > David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people > out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. > 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as > Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the > Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. > 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. > 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. > 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. > Existing population retains land. > 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and > pay taxes ). > 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe > Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the > "Zionist" name. > 1902 second wave of immigration. > 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in > Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a > promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement > was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local > people were ignored. > 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish > population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to > immigration. > 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza > as a separate nation. Fighting starts. > http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm > > There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed > the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from > Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan > when king David conquered the land. There were people living in > Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation > Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned > Canaan for Egypt. > > The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away > the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. > > David > > > Following the > On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian >> conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as >> exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand >> it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine >> consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed >> population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, >> empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering >> Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- >> Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British >> protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British >> encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, >> promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews >> also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their >> ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the >> time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish >> property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert st > ill occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected > minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position > of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 09:30:32 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Take Back the Night: Thurs. 4/29, 9 PM In-Reply-To: <4BC0F85B.1070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <269322.9256.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> TAKE BACK THE NIGHT MARCH: A Protest against Sexual Violence, will be held again this year on Pacific University's campus, sponsored by the CENTER FOR GENDER EQUITY.? ??? ? As a member of the Pacific and larger community, we invite you to join us in heightening awareness of and putting an end to sexual violence in American society, as well as around the world. ? The TAKE BACK THE NIGHT MARCH will begin in Trombly Square at Pacific University (see www.pacificu.edu? for a map). From there we will march though Forest Grove, primarily along Pacific Avenue. ? After the march,? Kim Chadwick, the Pacific University Wellness Coordinator, will speak about sexual assault and support for victims, and then the mic will be opened to anyone who wishes to speak.? CGE sent Alex Oletzke to a national conference at Columbia University in the fall to update Pacific on what communities around the country are doing for this important event.? ? In the past we have had a great showing, and we hope you and the members of your organization can join us in this collaboration between Pacific University and Forest Grove to help keep our community safe. Date:? Thursday April 29 Time:? 9:00 to 10:30 Place:? Beginning in Trombly Square, Pacific Campus, Forest Grove Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa From isis23ra at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 09:38:11 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Free movie Sat. 5/1, 7 PM: Priscilla, Queen of the Desert! In-Reply-To: <4BBFF564.00000B.02392@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <260671.127.qm@web55607.mail.re4.yahoo.com> FREE MOVIE EVENT and PARTY! THE ADVENTURES OF PRISCILLA, QUEEN OF THE DESERT will be shown SAT. MAY 1, 2010, 7 PM, Pacific University, The Milky Way, 2017 21st Ave, Forest Grove, OR. Bring your friends, dress in flamboyant costumes or come as you are for an evening of fun, entertainment, refreshments and lively conversation! Join PFLAG Washington County, Pacific University Center for Gender Equity and the Rainbow Coalition in celebrating the merry month of May by enjoying this funny, poignant and FREE MOVIE event!? Contact 503-359-9719 or wacopflag at gmail.com with questions. ? ? From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 26 09:53:53 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:53:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100426/13d5b22f/attachment.html From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 10:08:09 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> Message-ID: <295121.51901.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Even if you don't buy into the idea that Jews have a right to lay claim to Israel on the basis of historical rights to the land, Walt, I think there are several reasons why Israeli treatment of their Palestinian cousins has been far more humane and justified than the way our ancestors treated the Native American peoples whose land and cultures they stole. Our ancestors didn't have a UN-approved resolution requiring that they share America with its native peoples and giving us rights to the land we stole. Instead, we simply stole America from Native American tribes, we systematically annihilated most of them, and we systematically destroyed the very livelihood and cultures of the peoples we stole the land from. What's more, though some of our ancestors might've come to this land due to religious persecution, this was not the predominant reason that people came here. Most came here because they believed they could get land for free. For those who did come here to escape religious persecution, I don't think you can even begin to compare their plight with that of Jews who came to Israel during and after the Holocaust. Unlike America and our treatment of Native Americans, a UN resolution--backed by 33 independent nations--partitioned Palestine into two countries in 1947. Had the Palestinians played nice and cooperated, the two countries could be standing side by side at peace with each other today. But, the Palestinians decided they wanted it all for themselves, though they had been occupied by the British. A war ensued in 1948, following the end of British occupation, and then all hell broke loose. Armies from five Arab nations attacked the Israelis, and most of those Israelis had barely gotten a foothold on the land after arriving from the Diaspora following the Holocaust. Against all odds, the Israelis won the war and the State of Israel was formed. After the war, the Israelis did not put the Palestinians on reservations and they did not strip them of their culture. These are the reasons I see that Americans do not have right to judge the way the Israelis have handled their conflicts with the Palestinians. But, another reason is if Americans had to worry about bombs on every bus we take as much as the Israelis do, I can't imagine Americans being any less hardlined against our aggressors than the Israelis have been. In fact, I think you'd see huge vigilante as well as military efforts to put a stop to such terrorism. Just look what we have done to Iraq following the 911 bombings that Iraqis had nothing to do with. I hate seeing reports of Israeli military actions against the Palestinians just as I hate seeing busloads of Israelis blown to bits in the streets of Tel Aviv. When I was in Jerusalem in 1980, I saw Palestinian children playing in the streets with Israeli children. They were speaking Hebrew together. Other children would join in speaking Arabic and no one missed a beat. I had hoped that a solid peace would come between the two peoples by the time my Israeli friends' children were old enough to become soldiers. This tragically hasn't happened. Today, I see that in 1980, people seemed so much more evolved than they do now. Peace in that part of the world will clearly take some time if it gets there at all. But, I am very, very grateful that Israel exists. I have studied enough about Antisemitism to know that, one day, my children and many people I care deeply about may have to go there to escape persecution and perhaps even to save their lives. I believe that humankind has not evolved enough to prevent the need for a sanctuary to protect Jews from persecution and annihilation. I have learned enough about history to know that the Holocaust was not an isolated incident, and I can see with my own eyes that right-wing extremism combined with public apathy is still very much alive today. These two worrisome factors pose the biggest threat to Jews and other minorities in America today. Holly From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 8:05:10 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Thanks, David! DNA, at least, offers fairly cut-and-dried evidence. How the evidence is interpreted may still leave some disputes open, but still it's an improvement. How much of the Old Testament can be accepted as history, however, and how much as eponymous tribal myth, remains to be discovered. It seems reasonable that Jews and Canaanites would share genetic history, although the genocides recounted in the Old Testament-- if all of them actually happened-- might have extinguished many lines of descent. Hungry nomads from the hills or the deserts have conquered and displaced cultured people of the river valleys since the dawn of time, and a claim based on ancestral ownership is futile. If DNA analysis could be made on human remains dating from the Hebrew conquest, the genetic history might be more complicated. It might be that Jews and Palestinians share a common descent simply because everyone else was killed-- or, if all males were killed and the females enslaved (Joshuah seemed particularly fond of that scenario), the Y lines would become homogeneous. If research could be done on the mitachondrial line, passed down through females, more details might become clear. I remain deeply skeptical, however, of any nation that claims property by virtue of a god's authority. Unless they can produce a quitclaim deed signed by said god, I would be of the pragmatic opinion that anyone born of parents living on their own land has a right to that land. Meaning that many older Palestinians living in exile, do, in my opinion, have a real claim to property in Israel, and should at least be eligible for reparations-- but their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren (born in exile through no fault of their own) had best accept the facts on the ground and put down new roots where they can, rather than cling to the fantasy of "driving the Jews into the sea" and laying claim to "grandfather's mansion in Jerusalem." I rather doubt that there ever were enough grandfather's mansions to go around anyhow-- and even if every Jew were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today. WW On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The > people who lived there would be have the current name of > Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from > other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which > indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in Canaan. > http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion > http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html > > > My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan > ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The > territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. > After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for > Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to > the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even > though they remained there. > After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the > Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the > territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. > The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of > David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people > out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. > 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as > Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the > Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. > 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. > 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. > 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. > Existing population retains land. > 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and > pay taxes ). > 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe > Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the > "Zionist" name. > 1902 second wave of immigration. > 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in > Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a > promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement > was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local > people were ignored. > 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish > population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to > immigration. > 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza > as a separate nation. Fighting starts. > http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm > > There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed > the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from > Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan > when king David conquered the land. There were people living in > Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation > Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned > Canaan for Egypt. > > The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away > the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. > > David > > > Following the > On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian >> conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as >> exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand >> it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine >> consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed >> population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, >> empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering >> Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- >> Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British >> protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British >> encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, >> promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews >> also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their >> ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the >> time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish >> property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert st > ill occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected > minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position > of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 26 10:28:06 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:28:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> BTW, Steve Parento, a Pacific grad, invented pickleball. --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:54 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? Pickleball ? ? ? Who'da known ! ! ! But, it does appear to have only been copyrighted for about 20 years or so, so that appears to be the problem. All I know I learned more than 25 years ago ! ! bob "stickball" browning PS: And here I thought she was a left-handed monkey "wench" ! ? ! ? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/23/2010 10:58 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: Leave it to the judge to try to find a way to put his left-handed monkey wrench to work. http://pickleball.com/ From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 26 11:42:54 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:42:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Native American speaker Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC3FA@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Good people-relatives-I would like to invite you to attend the lecture being given by Nicholle Maher this Friday: noon, Jefferson 221. She will be speaking on "Making the Invisible Visible; the Story of the Portland Region's Native Community." Her lecture is part of Pres. Hallick's Inaugural series. Nicholle is the director of the Native American Youth and Family Center in Portland. As you know, I have an abiding interest in Native American issues. We seek to begin to redress the terrible wrongs committed under Pacific's control during the 1880-1885 period. Nicholle Maher's appearance here is part of an ongoing effort to make this a better place for all people. I do hope that you will be able to attend. In peace, --Mike From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 26 11:56:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:56:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <295121.51901.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> <295121.51901.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Holly: Well, note my last sentence: "even if every Jew were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today." So, I am a great believer in the facts on the ground, and that Israel as it exists is far preferable to a Palestine degenerating into just one more authoritarian, violent, intolerant and invincibly corrupt Islamist regime. I affirm, however, that I still believe the claim of an "ancestral homeland" to be a convenient rationale at best-- if I thought otherwise, I'd put in a claim with the Russian government over the farm my several-great German grandsires were granted by Catherine the Great, and of which they were deprived-- wrongfully, of course-- by her successors. But such a claim for ancestral homelands must remain only a romantic fantasy, central to uniting a scattered populace, unless it can be enforced by armed power. And in that case, the facts on the ground render the original rationale irrelevant. Many generations of Russians have been born on the Volga Germans' old lands, so I can see no valid reason to contest their own reasonable claims to the land, or organize an invasion to "reclaim" it from them. The same must apply to the American Indians. Granted, "our" ancestors (it appears mine arrived in the 1880s, too late to participate in the crime, but let's include mine for the sake of argument-- where was I?) Oh yes, although "our" ancestors undoubtedly dispossessed, drove out and massacred entire tribes... as well as introducing the lethal diseases which actually did far more slaughter before our ancestors moved West-- Do the remnants and mixed descendants of those tribes still have a valid claim upon the lands on which numerous generations of "our" descendants have since been born, lived, and been buried? Only where treaties have been granted to that effect. And yes, our government has failed to honor some of those treaties-- where valuable resources have been discovered, or where opportunistic settlers have invaded, or corrupt officials have interfered. But those treaties can still be claimed as valid titles to land and other valuables, because both parties still recognize them. Do such treaties exist between Israel and the Palestinians? Is there a mechanism for valid claims upon lands in Israel, that both parties recognize and accept? If so, reparations should be made where rights can be proven-- but barring that, I'd say let the facts on the ground stand, and Israelis who have been born on the land possess it as their own... but possess it by their recent forebears' right of conquest, not because they claim descent from the ancient Hebrews who originally conquered the ancient Canaanites, and then claimed that YWHW had given them title to the land. When the Babylonians, Macedonians, Romans and British successively conquered the same place, no doubt each of those regimes established their own legal claims, sometimes citing some divinity or other, such as the Divine Emperor, in eclipsing the rights of the Jews (and Phoenicians, and Arabs, and Bedouins, and later Christians) who had continued to live there from earlier times. The continuing conflict in the Middle East boils down to a few simple causes: conflicting versions of reality, and too many people coveting too little land. To be honest, I do not think the conflict can be resolved, legally or otherwise. When both sides make religion the central rationale of a conflict, legality flies out the window. The fact that Israeli and Palestinian children can play together is endearing, and instructive. Those children are not yet indoctrinated with the absolutist mindsets of their respective parents. I read some years ago about an Israeli restauranteur whose business catered to both Israelis and Palestinians, who was friendly and generous to all, and who was beloved by his Palestinian and Israeli neighbors. One day another Palestinian entered his restaurant and murdered him. Does this isolated incident prove anything about land ownership? It proves only that one absolutist with a gun can destroy a peace enjoyed by hundreds or thousands who are willing to compromise, but who are not willing to kill. Is there any alternative to Israeli military actions that kill civilians? Not as long as "asymmetrical warfare," also called terrorism, is so simple and effective. If the Israelis had the technology to detect every hidden bomb, every gun being smuggled, every rocket being launched and every tunnel being dug, and to neutralize it on the spot, then they could afford to rest within their own borders and let their enemies fume and rave impotently outside. Since the technology does not exist, and both sides are deeply entrenched in their own versions of reality, and there is too little land to accommodate both factions, I don't see any alternative to an unending low-grade conflict that will periodically erupt into armed conflict. Sad, of course. But until leaders arise who are willing to transcend the old absolutisms, I don't see any hope of real change. WW On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Holly T. wrote: > Even if you don't buy into the idea that Jews have a right to lay > claim to Israel on the basis of historical rights to the land, > Walt, I think there are several reasons why Israeli treatment of > their Palestinian cousins has been far more humane and justified > than the way our ancestors treated the Native American peoples > whose land and cultures they stole. > > Our ancestors didn't have a UN-approved resolution requiring that > they share America with its native peoples and giving us rights to > the land we stole. Instead, we simply stole America from Native > American tribes, we systematically annihilated most of them, and we > systematically destroyed the very livelihood and cultures of the > peoples we stole the land from. What's more, though some of our > ancestors might've come to this land due to religious persecution, > this was not the predominant reason that people came here. Most > came here because they believed they could get land for free. For > those who did come here to escape religious persecution, I don't > think you can even begin to compare their plight with that of Jews > who came to Israel during and after the Holocaust. > > Unlike America and our treatment of Native Americans, a UN > resolution--backed by 33 independent nations--partitioned Palestine > into two countries in 1947. Had the Palestinians played nice and > cooperated, the two countries could be standing side by side at > peace with each other today. But, the Palestinians decided they > wanted it all for themselves, though they had been occupied by the > British. A war ensued in 1948, following the end of British > occupation, and then all hell broke loose. Armies from five Arab > nations attacked the Israelis, and most of those Israelis had > barely gotten a foothold on the land after arriving from the > Diaspora following the Holocaust. Against all odds, the Israelis > won the war and the State of Israel was formed. After the war, the > Israelis did not put the Palestinians on reservations and they did > not strip them of their culture. > > These are the reasons I see that Americans do not have right to > judge the way the Israelis have handled their conflicts with the > Palestinians. But, another reason is if Americans had to worry > about bombs on every bus we take as much as the Israelis do, I > can't imagine Americans being any less hardlined against our > aggressors than the Israelis have been. In fact, I think you'd see > huge vigilante as well as military efforts to put a stop to such > terrorism. Just look what we have done to Iraq following the 911 > bombings that Iraqis had nothing to do with. > > I hate seeing reports of Israeli military actions against the > Palestinians just as I hate seeing busloads of Israelis blown to > bits in the streets of Tel Aviv. When I was in Jerusalem in 1980, I > saw Palestinian children playing in the streets with Israeli > children. They were speaking Hebrew together. Other children would > join in speaking Arabic and no one missed a beat. I had hoped that > a solid peace would come between the two peoples by the time my > Israeli friends' children were old enough to become soldiers. This > tragically hasn't happened. Today, I see that in 1980, people > seemed so much more evolved than they do now. Peace in that part of > the world will clearly take some time if it gets there at all. > > But, I am very, very grateful that Israel exists. I have studied > enough about Antisemitism to know that, one day, my children and > many people I care deeply about may have to go there to escape > persecution and perhaps even to save their lives. I believe that > humankind has not evolved enough to prevent the need for a > sanctuary to protect Jews from persecution and annihilation. I have > learned enough about history to know that the Holocaust was not an > isolated incident, and I can see with my own eyes that right-wing > extremism combined with public apathy is still very much alive > today. These two worrisome factors pose the biggest threat to Jews > and other minorities in America today. > > Holly > > > > > > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 8:05:10 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > Thanks, David! > DNA, at least, offers fairly cut-and-dried evidence. How the evidence > is interpreted may still leave some disputes open, but still it's an > improvement. > How much of the Old Testament can be accepted as history, however, > and how much as eponymous tribal myth, remains to be discovered. It > seems reasonable that Jews and Canaanites would share genetic > history, although the genocides recounted in the Old Testament-- if > all of them actually happened-- might have extinguished many lines of > descent. Hungry nomads from the hills or the deserts have conquered > and displaced cultured people of the river valleys since the dawn of > time, and a claim based on ancestral ownership is futile. If DNA > analysis could be made on human remains dating from the Hebrew > conquest, the genetic history might be more complicated. It might be > that Jews and Palestinians share a common descent simply because > everyone else was killed-- or, if all males were killed and the > females enslaved (Joshuah seemed particularly fond of that scenario), > the Y lines would become homogeneous. If research could be done on > the mitachondrial line, passed down through females, more details > might become clear. > I remain deeply skeptical, however, of any nation that claims > property by virtue of a god's authority. Unless they can produce a > quitclaim deed signed by said god, I would be of the pragmatic > opinion that anyone born of parents living on their own land has a > right to that land. Meaning that many older Palestinians living in > exile, do, in my opinion, have a real claim to property in Israel, > and should at least be eligible for reparations-- but their children > and grandchildren and great-grandchildren (born in exile through no > fault of their own) had best accept the facts on the ground and put > down new roots where they can, rather than cling to the fantasy of > "driving the Jews into the sea" and laying claim to "grandfather's > mansion in Jerusalem." I rather doubt that there ever were enough > grandfather's mansions to go around anyhow-- and even if every Jew > were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect > the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today. > WW > > On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The >> people who lived there would be have the current name of >> Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from >> other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which >> indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in Canaan. >> http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion >> http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html >> >> >> My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan >> ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The >> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >> After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for >> Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to >> the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even >> though they remained there. >> After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the >> Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the >> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >> The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of >> David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people >> out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. >> 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as >> Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the >> Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. >> 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. >> 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. >> 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. >> Existing population retains land. >> 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and >> pay taxes ). >> 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe >> Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the >> "Zionist" name. >> 1902 second wave of immigration. >> 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in >> Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a >> promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement >> was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local >> people were ignored. >> 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish >> population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to >> immigration. >> 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza >> as a separate nation. Fighting starts. >> http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm >> >> There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed >> the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from >> Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan >> when king David conquered the land. There were people living in >> Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation >> Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned >> Canaan for Egypt. >> >> The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away >> the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. >> >> David >> >> >> Following the >> On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian >>> conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as >>> exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand >>> it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine >>> consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed >>> population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, >>> empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering >>> Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- >>> Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British >>> protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British >>> encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, >>> promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews >>> also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their >>> ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the >>> time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish >>> property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert st >> ill occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected >> minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position >> of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Apr 26 13:02:23 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:02:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Since it was invented here, I was curious to learn more. I know Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a source, but for something like this, it serves the purpose. The website gives credit to Joel Pritchard and Bill Bell of Washington State. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickleball It lists Steve Paranto as placing second in the first known Pickleball tournament in 1976. But no other mention of him. If there is a Forest Grove connection, perhaps we should have an annual Pickleball tournament - wouldn't that help our tourism? As I've said before, I wish Forest Grove would "think out of the box" a bit, and celebrate things that are unique to Forest Grove. Instead, Forest Grove continues to insist we could become known for our wine! Like there aren't hundreds of other communities across the US, known for wine.... Going after the "niche" markets makes more sense, than going after the stuff everyone else is already doing. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:28 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > BTW, Steve Parento, a Pacific grad, invented pickleball. > > --Mike > > ________________________________ > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:54 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > > Pickleball ? ? ? Who'da known ! ! ! But, it does appear to have only been copyrighted for about 20 years or so, so that appears to be the problem. All I know I learned more than 25 years ago ! ! > > bob "stickball" browning > > PS: And here I thought she was a left-handed monkey "wench" ! ? ! ? > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/23/2010 10:58 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > Leave it to the judge to try to find a way to put his left-handed monkey > > wrench to work. > > > > http://pickleball.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 13:17:51 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> <295121.51901.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507565.87208.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> As far as believing in "facts on the ground" are concerned, Walt, I think it's important to understand that, even though you and I may tend to look at things that way, people in the Middle East often do not. And, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Even in the most fundamental Jewish and Islamic religious rituals, people are conditioned to look at things differently. And trying to remove religion from these cultures is like trying to cut the jugular veins from people's necks. For centuries, during Passover, it has been customary for Jews the world over to hope and pray, "Next year in Jerusalem!" So, for centuries, persecuted Jews the world over have prayed for and dreamed of returning to a homeland free of persecution that they consider their God-given right. Whether it is their God-given right to immigrate to Israel...whether it is justified for them to feel that centuries of religious persecution and dispersion should allow them rights to the land...well, that's not for me or other Americans to judge in my opinion. I just know that if I were an Israeli, I would feel a lot more proud of what my father did to ensure a safer life for me than I am about the brutal injustices that early-American settlers and military inflicted upon the Native Americans. No amount of reparations could even begin make up for what the American government did and allowed with respect to these people. But yet, at best, we "honor" our meager treaties with these First People. What a preposterous joke when you consider what our government and citizens took away from them. For now, I would agree with you about the future of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Walt. At humankind's present level of evolution, there seems to be no immediate solution to this conflict. Not from within Israel or from without. But, I believe that the universe is wide and possibilities are endless; so I am at least hopeful. Unlike most people, I have seen Israeli and Palestinian children playing together in the streets of Jerusalem. As long as that is possible, I believe that peace is possible throughout this divided region. Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 11:56:35 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes Hi Holly: Well, note my last sentence: "even if every Jew were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today." So, I am a great believer in the facts on the ground, and that Israel as it exists is far preferable to a Palestine degenerating into just one more authoritarian, violent, intolerant and invincibly corrupt Islamist regime. I affirm, however, that I still believe the claim of an "ancestral homeland" to be a convenient rationale at best-- if I thought otherwise, I'd put in a claim with the Russian government over the farm my several-great German grandsires were granted by Catherine the Great, and of which they were deprived-- wrongfully, of course-- by her successors. But such a claim for ancestral homelands must remain only a romantic fantasy, central to uniting a scattered populace, unless it can be enforced by armed power. And in that case, the facts on the ground render the original rationale irrelevant. Many generations of Russians have been born on the Volga Germans' old lands, so I can see no valid reason to contest their own reasonable claims to the land, or organize an invasion to "reclaim" it from them. The same must apply to the American Indians. Granted, "our" ancestors (it appears mine arrived in the 1880s, too late to participate in the crime, but let's include mine for the sake of argument-- where was I?) Oh yes, although "our" ancestors undoubtedly dispossessed, drove out and massacred entire tribes... as well as introducing the lethal diseases which actually did far more slaughter before our ancestors moved West-- Do the remnants and mixed descendants of those tribes still have a valid claim upon the lands on which numerous generations of "our" descendants have since been born, lived, and been buried? Only where treaties have been granted to that effect. And yes, our government has failed to honor some of those treaties-- where valuable resources have been discovered, or where opportunistic settlers have invaded, or corrupt officials have interfered. But those treaties can still be claimed as valid titles to land and other valuables, because both parties still recognize them. Do such treaties exist between Israel and the Palestinians? Is there a mechanism for valid claims upon lands in Israel, that both parties recognize and accept? If so, reparations should be made where rights can be proven-- but barring that, I'd say let the facts on the ground stand, and Israelis who have been born on the land possess it as their own... but possess it by their recent forebears' right of conquest, not because they claim descent from the ancient Hebrews who originally conquered the ancient Canaanites, and then claimed that YWHW had given them title to the land. When the Babylonians, Macedonians, Romans and British successively conquered the same place, no doubt each of those regimes established their own legal claims, sometimes citing some divinity or other, such as the Divine Emperor, in eclipsing the rights of the Jews (and Phoenicians, and Arabs, and Bedouins, and later Christians) who had continued to live there from earlier times. The continuing conflict in the Middle East boils down to a few simple causes: conflicting versions of reality, and too many people coveting too little land. To be honest, I do not think the conflict can be resolved, legally or otherwise. When both sides make religion the central rationale of a conflict, legality flies out the window. The fact that Israeli and Palestinian children can play together is endearing, and instructive. Those children are not yet indoctrinated with the absolutist mindsets of their respective parents. I read some years ago about an Israeli restauranteur whose business catered to both Israelis and Palestinians, who was friendly and generous to all, and who was beloved by his Palestinian and Israeli neighbors. One day another Palestinian entered his restaurant and murdered him. Does this isolated incident prove anything about land ownership? It proves only that one absolutist with a gun can destroy a peace enjoyed by hundreds or thousands who are willing to compromise, but who are not willing to kill. Is there any alternative to Israeli military actions that kill civilians? Not as long as "asymmetrical warfare," also called terrorism, is so simple and effective. If the Israelis had the technology to detect every hidden bomb, every gun being smuggled, every rocket being launched and every tunnel being dug, and to neutralize it on the spot, then they could afford to rest within their own borders and let their enemies fume and rave impotently outside. Since the technology does not exist, and both sides are deeply entrenched in their own versions of reality, and there is too little land to accommodate both factions, I don't see any alternative to an unending low-grade conflict that will periodically erupt into armed conflict. Sad, of course. But until leaders arise who are willing to transcend the old absolutisms, I don't see any hope of real change. WW On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Holly T. wrote: > Even if you don't buy into the idea that Jews have a right to lay > claim to Israel on the basis of historical rights to the land, > Walt, I think there are several reasons why Israeli treatment of > their Palestinian cousins has been far more humane and justified > than the way our ancestors treated the Native American peoples > whose land and cultures they stole. > > Our ancestors didn't have a UN-approved resolution requiring that > they share America with its native peoples and giving us rights to > the land we stole. Instead, we simply stole America from Native > American tribes, we systematically annihilated most of them, and we > systematically destroyed the very livelihood and cultures of the > peoples we stole the land from. What's more, though some of our > ancestors might've come to this land due to religious persecution, > this was not the predominant reason that people came here. Most > came here because they believed they could get land for free. For > those who did come here to escape religious persecution, I don't > think you can even begin to compare their plight with that of Jews > who came to Israel during and after the Holocaust. > > Unlike America and our treatment of Native Americans, a UN > resolution--backed by 33 independent nations--partitioned Palestine > into two countries in 1947. Had the Palestinians played nice and > cooperated, the two countries could be standing side by side at > peace with each other today. But, the Palestinians decided they > wanted it all for themselves, though they had been occupied by the > British. A war ensued in 1948, following the end of British > occupation, and then all hell broke loose. Armies from five Arab > nations attacked the Israelis, and most of those Israelis had > barely gotten a foothold on the land after arriving from the > Diaspora following the Holocaust. Against all odds, the Israelis > won the war and the State of Israel was formed. After the war, the > Israelis did not put the Palestinians on reservations and they did > not strip them of their culture. > > These are the reasons I see that Americans do not have right to > judge the way the Israelis have handled their conflicts with the > Palestinians. But, another reason is if Americans had to worry > about bombs on every bus we take as much as the Israelis do, I > can't imagine Americans being any less hardlined against our > aggressors than the Israelis have been. In fact, I think you'd see > huge vigilante as well as military efforts to put a stop to such > terrorism. Just look what we have done to Iraq following the 911 > bombings that Iraqis had nothing to do with. > > I hate seeing reports of Israeli military actions against the > Palestinians just as I hate seeing busloads of Israelis blown to > bits in the streets of Tel Aviv. When I was in Jerusalem in 1980, I > saw Palestinian children playing in the streets with Israeli > children. They were speaking Hebrew together. Other children would > join in speaking Arabic and no one missed a beat. I had hoped that > a solid peace would come between the two peoples by the time my > Israeli friends' children were old enough to become soldiers. This > tragically hasn't happened. Today, I see that in 1980, people > seemed so much more evolved than they do now. Peace in that part of > the world will clearly take some time if it gets there at all. > > But, I am very, very grateful that Israel exists. I have studied > enough about Antisemitism to know that, one day, my children and > many people I care deeply about may have to go there to escape > persecution and perhaps even to save their lives. I believe that > humankind has not evolved enough to prevent the need for a > sanctuary to protect Jews from persecution and annihilation. I have > learned enough about history to know that the Holocaust was not an > isolated incident, and I can see with my own eyes that right-wing > extremism combined with public apathy is still very much alive > today. These two worrisome factors pose the biggest threat to Jews > and other minorities in America today. > > Holly > > > > > > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 8:05:10 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > Thanks, David! > DNA, at least, offers fairly cut-and-dried evidence. How the evidence > is interpreted may still leave some disputes open, but still it's an > improvement. > How much of the Old Testament can be accepted as history, however, > and how much as eponymous tribal myth, remains to be discovered. It > seems reasonable that Jews and Canaanites would share genetic > history, although the genocides recounted in the Old Testament-- if > all of them actually happened-- might have extinguished many lines of > descent. Hungry nomads from the hills or the deserts have conquered > and displaced cultured people of the river valleys since the dawn of > time, and a claim based on ancestral ownership is futile. If DNA > analysis could be made on human remains dating from the Hebrew > conquest, the genetic history might be more complicated. It might be > that Jews and Palestinians share a common descent simply because > everyone else was killed-- or, if all males were killed and the > females enslaved (Joshuah seemed particularly fond of that scenario), > the Y lines would become homogeneous. If research could be done on > the mitachondrial line, passed down through females, more details > might become clear. > I remain deeply skeptical, however, of any nation that claims > property by virtue of a god's authority. Unless they can produce a > quitclaim deed signed by said god, I would be of the pragmatic > opinion that anyone born of parents living on their own land has a > right to that land. Meaning that many older Palestinians living in > exile, do, in my opinion, have a real claim to property in Israel, > and should at least be eligible for reparations-- but their children > and grandchildren and great-grandchildren (born in exile through no > fault of their own) had best accept the facts on the ground and put > down new roots where they can, rather than cling to the fantasy of > "driving the Jews into the sea" and laying claim to "grandfather's > mansion in Jerusalem." I rather doubt that there ever were enough > grandfather's mansions to go around anyhow-- and even if every Jew > were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect > the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today. > WW > > On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The >> people who lived there would be have the current name of >> Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from >> other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which >> indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in Canaan. >> http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion >> http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html >> >> >> My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan >> ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The >> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >> After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for >> Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to >> the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even >> though they remained there. >> After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the >> Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the >> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >> The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of >> David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people >> out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. >> 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as >> Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the >> Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. >> 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. >> 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. >> 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. >> Existing population retains land. >> 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and >> pay taxes ). >> 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe >> Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the >> "Zionist" name. >> 1902 second wave of immigration. >> 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in >> Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a >> promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement >> was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local >> people were ignored. >> 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish >> population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to >> immigration. >> 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza >> as a separate nation. Fighting starts. >> http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm >> >> There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed >> the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from >> Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan >> when king David conquered the land. There were people living in >> Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation >> Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned >> Canaan for Egypt. >> >> The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away >> the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. >> >> David >> >> >> Following the >> On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian >>> conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as >>> exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand >>> it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine >>> consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed >>> population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, >>> empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering >>> Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- >>> Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British >>> protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British >>> encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, >>> promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews >>> also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their >>> ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the >>> time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish >>> property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of desert st >> ill occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected >> minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position >> of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 26 13:22:15 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Marian...thanks for this. I met Steve while playing golf a few years ago...and probably misquoted him. I think he's more properly credited with inventing the current ball in use. As president of the US Handball Association, I am always on the lookout for people with ball connections--research, development, manufacturers, etc. So, to correct the Grovenet record,give Steve credit for the ball. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:02 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? Since it was invented here, I was curious to learn more. I know Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a source, but for something like this, it serves the purpose. The website gives credit to Joel Pritchard and Bill Bell of Washington State. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickleball It lists Steve Paranto as placing second in the first known Pickleball tournament in 1976. But no other mention of him. If there is a Forest Grove connection, perhaps we should have an annual Pickleball tournament - wouldn't that help our tourism? As I've said before, I wish Forest Grove would "think out of the box" a bit, and celebrate things that are unique to Forest Grove. Instead, Forest Grove continues to insist we could become known for our wine! Like there aren't hundreds of other communities across the US, known for wine.... Going after the "niche" markets makes more sense, than going after the stuff everyone else is already doing. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:28 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > BTW, Steve Parento, a Pacific grad, invented pickleball. > > --Mike > > ________________________________ > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:54 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > > Pickleball ? ? ? Who'da known ! ! ! But, it does appear to have only been copyrighted for about 20 years or so, so that appears to be the problem. All I know I learned more than 25 years ago ! ! > > bob "stickball" browning > > PS: And here I thought she was a left-handed monkey "wench" ! ? ! ? > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 4/23/2010 10:58 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > Leave it to the judge to try to find a way to put his left-handed monkey > > wrench to work. > > > > http://pickleball.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 26 13:56:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:56:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <507565.87208.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <551C0240-64B3-4997-BC89-F39AA853A677@teleport.com> <4BCFF111.000109.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <036301cae1ea$9d22c960$d7685c20$@com> <4BCFF9F4.000117.02824@DON-B2514E06367> <037e01cae1f8$528ad650$f7a082f0$@com> <4BD06CA7.000011.02876@DON-B2514E06367> <043001cae250$5d42a430$17c7ec90$@com> <047C3726-8197-4D8A-A6DC-B27F7E52CC6F@verizon.net> <63164A5D46664A538855EB2F7C7C2E5E@JeffVAIO> <5196B608-84A3-4C04-A7C3-170028714F36@verizon.net> <682216.29360.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7A8889FC-2D40-4FB3-B3D6-D5E331ABEB95@teleport.com> <84DA185F-29F7-43F9-9547-ED5BEC095637@verizon.net> <4DB2CBF7-8266-407B-9FBD-09808A16CC90@teleport.com> <295121.51901.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <507565.87208.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7F019E5B-92D0-4DB7-9F26-00F76FC32E18@teleport.com> > > As far as believing in "facts on the ground" are concerned, Walt, I > think it's important to understand that, even though you and I may > tend to look at things that way, people in the Middle East often do > not. And, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Even in the most > fundamental Jewish and Islamic religious rituals, people are > conditioned to look at things differently. And trying to remove > religion from these cultures is like trying to cut the jugular > veins from people's necks. Unfortunately true. When one's entire life is posited upon a religion-- and added to that is a "tribal" or "clan" mindset that most Westerners cannot even comprehend-- people will say and do things that seem out of any rational perspective. Add the poisonous effect of corrupt governments and many thousands of young men who are unemployed, with zero prospects, and at their height of their "machismo" period, and you have a bottomless pool of recruits for fanatical movements. > I just know that if I were an Israeli, I would feel a lot more > proud of what my father did to ensure a safer life for me than I am > about the brutal injustices that early-American settlers and > military inflicted upon the Native Americans. No amount of > reparations could even begin make up for what the American > government did and allowed with respect to these people. But yet, > at best, we "honor" our meager treaties with these First People. > What a preposterous joke when you consider what our government and > citizens took away from them. Yes-- but remember, everyone involved with those great injustices is dead. Generations have been born and died. We the living can try to make things better for each other (instead of trying to snatch little momentary advantages for ourselves to the detriment of everyone else), but we cannot really make recompense for wrongs done to people long dead. We can try to improve the lot of present generations of American Indians, but they must live their own lives to the best of their own abilities, in the world that now exists. "The Moving Finger writes, and having writ Moves on; nor all thy piety nor wit Can call it back to cancel half a line, Nor all thy tears wash out one word of it." > > For now, I would agree with you about the future of the Palestinian- > Israeli conflict, Walt. At humankind's present level of > evolution, there seems to be no immediate solution to this > conflict. Not from within Israel or from without. > But, I believe that the universe is wide and possibilities are > endless; > so I am at least hopeful. Who knows what might happen there in the birthplace of religions... perhaps a new religion like Ba'hai will arise, proclaiming a new brotherhood of man. It would have to be a very appealing religion, with a very charismatic founder. And all the fundamentalist regimes in the region would try frantically to crush it. Even so, I'm not sure that replacing a number of religions with another religion would be all that much of a gain. And people do create God in their own image. Many people are cruel and intolerant not because God wills it, but because they are just naturally mean and use God as an excuse. > Unlike most people, I have seen Israeli and > Palestinian children playing together in the streets of Jerusalem. As > long as that is possible, I believe that peace is possible > throughout this divided region. One of my favorite artist/writers, the Australian genius Norman Lindsay, back in the 1930s wrote a fantasy short story about a renegade scientist who realized that the most intractable problems of man are mostly caused by older political and religious leaders who are locked in the past, obsessed with their own self-interest and indifferent to the sufferings of others. So he invented a radio device that would cause anyone over 60, including himself, to die instantly, thus ending many of the world's problems at a stroke. Although I am now over 60 myself, I can understand the appeal that "Logan's Run" scenario might have to the young, idealistic and frustrated. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 11:56:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > Hi Holly: > Well, note my last sentence: "even if every Jew were to vanish out of > the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect the former Israel > would resemble the Gaza of today." So, I am a great believer in the > facts on the ground, and that Israel as it exists is far preferable > to a Palestine degenerating into just one more authoritarian, > violent, intolerant and invincibly corrupt Islamist regime. > I affirm, however, that I still believe the claim of an "ancestral > homeland" to be a convenient rationale at best-- if I thought > otherwise, I'd put in a claim with the Russian government over the > farm my several-great German grandsires were granted by Catherine the > Great, and of which they were deprived-- wrongfully, of course-- by > her successors. But such a claim for ancestral homelands must remain > only a romantic fantasy, central to uniting a scattered populace, > unless it can be enforced by armed power. And in that case, the facts > on the ground render the original rationale irrelevant. Many > generations of Russians have been born on the Volga Germans' old > lands, so I can see no valid reason to contest their own reasonable > claims to the land, or organize an invasion to "reclaim" it from them. > The same must apply to the American Indians. Granted, "our" ancestors > (it appears mine arrived in the 1880s, too late to participate in the > crime, but let's include mine for the sake of argument-- where was > I?) Oh yes, although "our" ancestors undoubtedly dispossessed, drove > out and massacred entire tribes... as well as introducing the lethal > diseases which actually did far more slaughter before our ancestors > moved West-- Do the remnants and mixed descendants of those tribes > still have a valid claim upon the lands on which numerous generations > of "our" descendants have since been born, lived, and been buried? > Only where treaties have been granted to that effect. And yes, our > government has failed to honor some of those treaties-- where > valuable resources have been discovered, or where opportunistic > settlers have invaded, or corrupt officials have interfered. But > those treaties can still be claimed as valid titles to land and other > valuables, because both parties still recognize them. Do such > treaties exist between Israel and the Palestinians? Is there a > mechanism for valid claims upon lands in Israel, that both parties > recognize and accept? If so, reparations should be made where rights > can be proven-- but barring that, I'd say let the facts on the ground > stand, and Israelis who have been born on the land possess it as > their own... but possess it by their recent forebears' right of > conquest, not because they claim descent from the ancient Hebrews who > originally conquered the ancient Canaanites, and then claimed that > YWHW had given them title to the land. When the Babylonians, > Macedonians, Romans and British successively conquered the same > place, no doubt each of those regimes established their own legal > claims, sometimes citing some divinity or other, such as the Divine > Emperor, in eclipsing the rights of the Jews (and Phoenicians, and > Arabs, and Bedouins, and later Christians) who had continued to live > there from earlier times. > The continuing conflict in the Middle East boils down to a few simple > causes: conflicting versions of reality, and too many people coveting > too little land. To be honest, I do not think the conflict can be > resolved, legally or otherwise. When both sides make religion the > central rationale of a conflict, legality flies out the window. > The fact that Israeli and Palestinian children can play together is > endearing, and instructive. Those children are not yet indoctrinated > with the absolutist mindsets of their respective parents. I read > some years ago about an Israeli restauranteur whose business catered > to both Israelis and Palestinians, who was friendly and generous to > all, and who was beloved by his Palestinian and Israeli neighbors. > One day another Palestinian entered his restaurant and murdered him. > Does this isolated incident prove anything about land ownership? It > proves only that one absolutist with a gun can destroy a peace > enjoyed by hundreds or thousands who are willing to compromise, but > who are not willing to kill. > Is there any alternative to Israeli military actions that kill > civilians? Not as long as "asymmetrical warfare," also called > terrorism, is so simple and effective. If the Israelis had the > technology to detect every hidden bomb, every gun being smuggled, > every rocket being launched and every tunnel being dug, and to > neutralize it on the spot, then they could afford to rest within > their own borders and let their enemies fume and rave impotently > outside. Since the technology does not exist, and both sides are > deeply entrenched in their own versions of reality, and there is too > little land to accommodate both factions, I don't see any alternative > to an unending low-grade conflict that will periodically erupt into > armed conflict. Sad, of course. But until leaders arise who are > willing to transcend the old absolutisms, I don't see any hope of > real change. > WW > > > On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Holly T. wrote: > >> Even if you don't buy into the idea that Jews have a right to lay >> claim to Israel on the basis of historical rights to the land, >> Walt, I think there are several reasons why Israeli treatment of >> their Palestinian cousins has been far more humane and justified >> than the way our ancestors treated the Native American peoples >> whose land and cultures they stole. >> >> Our ancestors didn't have a UN-approved resolution requiring that >> they share America with its native peoples and giving us rights to >> the land we stole. Instead, we simply stole America from Native >> American tribes, we systematically annihilated most of them, and we >> systematically destroyed the very livelihood and cultures of the >> peoples we stole the land from. What's more, though some of our >> ancestors might've come to this land due to religious persecution, >> this was not the predominant reason that people came here. Most >> came here because they believed they could get land for free. For >> those who did come here to escape religious persecution, I don't >> think you can even begin to compare their plight with that of Jews >> who came to Israel during and after the Holocaust. >> >> Unlike America and our treatment of Native Americans, a UN >> resolution--backed by 33 independent nations--partitioned Palestine >> into two countries in 1947. Had the Palestinians played nice and >> cooperated, the two countries could be standing side by side at >> peace with each other today. But, the Palestinians decided they >> wanted it all for themselves, though they had been occupied by the >> British. A war ensued in 1948, following the end of British >> occupation, and then all hell broke loose. Armies from five Arab >> nations attacked the Israelis, and most of those Israelis had >> barely gotten a foothold on the land after arriving from the >> Diaspora following the Holocaust. Against all odds, the Israelis >> won the war and the State of Israel was formed. After the war, the >> Israelis did not put the Palestinians on reservations and they did >> not strip them of their culture. >> >> These are the reasons I see that Americans do not have right to >> judge the way the Israelis have handled their conflicts with the >> Palestinians. But, another reason is if Americans had to worry >> about bombs on every bus we take as much as the Israelis do, I >> can't imagine Americans being any less hardlined against our >> aggressors than the Israelis have been. In fact, I think you'd see >> huge vigilante as well as military efforts to put a stop to such >> terrorism. Just look what we have done to Iraq following the 911 >> bombings that Iraqis had nothing to do with. >> >> I hate seeing reports of Israeli military actions against the >> Palestinians just as I hate seeing busloads of Israelis blown to >> bits in the streets of Tel Aviv. When I was in Jerusalem in 1980, I >> saw Palestinian children playing in the streets with Israeli >> children. They were speaking Hebrew together. Other children would >> join in speaking Arabic and no one missed a beat. I had hoped that >> a solid peace would come between the two peoples by the time my >> Israeli friends' children were old enough to become soldiers. This >> tragically hasn't happened. Today, I see that in 1980, people >> seemed so much more evolved than they do now. Peace in that part of >> the world will clearly take some time if it gets there at all. >> >> But, I am very, very grateful that Israel exists. I have studied >> enough about Antisemitism to know that, one day, my children and >> many people I care deeply about may have to go there to escape >> persecution and perhaps even to save their lives. I believe that >> humankind has not evolved enough to prevent the need for a >> sanctuary to protect Jews from persecution and annihilation. I have >> learned enough about history to know that the Holocaust was not an >> isolated incident, and I can see with my own eyes that right-wing >> extremism combined with public apathy is still very much alive >> today. These two worrisome factors pose the biggest threat to Jews >> and other minorities in America today. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 8:05:10 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes >> >> Thanks, David! >> DNA, at least, offers fairly cut-and-dried evidence. How the evidence >> is interpreted may still leave some disputes open, but still it's an >> improvement. >> How much of the Old Testament can be accepted as history, however, >> and how much as eponymous tribal myth, remains to be discovered. It >> seems reasonable that Jews and Canaanites would share genetic >> history, although the genocides recounted in the Old Testament-- if >> all of them actually happened-- might have extinguished many lines of >> descent. Hungry nomads from the hills or the deserts have conquered >> and displaced cultured people of the river valleys since the dawn of >> time, and a claim based on ancestral ownership is futile. If DNA >> analysis could be made on human remains dating from the Hebrew >> conquest, the genetic history might be more complicated. It might be >> that Jews and Palestinians share a common descent simply because >> everyone else was killed-- or, if all males were killed and the >> females enslaved (Joshuah seemed particularly fond of that scenario), >> the Y lines would become homogeneous. If research could be done on >> the mitachondrial line, passed down through females, more details >> might become clear. >> I remain deeply skeptical, however, of any nation that claims >> property by virtue of a god's authority. Unless they can produce a >> quitclaim deed signed by said god, I would be of the pragmatic >> opinion that anyone born of parents living on their own land has a >> right to that land. Meaning that many older Palestinians living in >> exile, do, in my opinion, have a real claim to property in Israel, >> and should at least be eligible for reparations-- but their children >> and grandchildren and great-grandchildren (born in exile through no >> fault of their own) had best accept the facts on the ground and put >> down new roots where they can, rather than cling to the fantasy of >> "driving the Jews into the sea" and laying claim to "grandfather's >> mansion in Jerusalem." I rather doubt that there ever were enough >> grandfather's mansions to go around anyhow-- and even if every Jew >> were to vanish out of the Middle East tomorrow, in 30 years I suspect >> the former Israel would resemble the Gaza of today. >> WW >> >> On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:39 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> Palestine has had settled cities for all of recorded history. The >>> people who lived there would be have the current name of >>> Palestinians. The assumption that the Palestinians immigrated from >>> other locations is disputed by a study of Y-chromosomes, which >>> indicates that Palestinians and Jews have common ancestors in >>> Canaan. >>> http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion >>> http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html >>> >>> >>> My reading of history is that Abram migrated from Ur to Canaan >>> ( Palestine ) and believed that it was given to him by God. The >>> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >>> After two generations, Jacob (Israel) and his children left for >>> Egypt. His brother Esau and his children stayed, but according to >>> the Bible, they didn't qualify for the possession of Canaan even >>> though they remained there. >>> After centuries of living in Egypt, Moses and Joshua lead the >>> Exodus of the descendants of Jacob back into Canaan. Again the >>> territorial rights of the people who lived there were ignored. >>> The next century or two were periods of Judges and the Kingdoms of >>> David and Solomon. In this time Israelites pushed the local people >>> out, while the children of Israel consolidated their authority. >>> 135 A.D. Rome crushed the Bar Kochba revolt, renamed Judea as >>> Palestina, and banned Jews from Jerusalem. The origins of the >>> Diaspora as Jews move out of Palestine. >>> 1099 Crusaders conquer Jerusalem and expel Jews. >>> 1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem and allows Jews to remain. >>> 1740 Ottoman Sultan allows Jewish immigration to Tiberias. >>> Existing population retains land. >>> 1856 Requirement to register ownership of land in Palestine ( and >>> pay taxes ). >>> 1882 first wave of 25,000 Jews immigrate from Europe >>> Theodor Herzl pretty much started the program that used the >>> "Zionist" name. >>> 1902 second wave of immigration. >>> 1917 British Balfour Declaration promises Jewish homeland in >>> Palestine. About the same time as Lawrence of Arabia was making a >>> promise of independence to the Arabs, and the Sykes-Picot agreement >>> was giving control of Syria to France. The rights of the local >>> people were ignored. >>> 1939 Arab resistance to Jewish immigration leads to revolt. Jewish >>> population about 1/2 million. Britain closes Palestine to >>> immigration. >>> 1948 Declaration of Israel as a nation, along side Palestine & Gaza >>> as a separate nation. Fighting starts. >>> http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm >>> >>> There were people living in Canaan when Abram arrived and claimed >>> the land. There were people living in Canaan when Joshua came from >>> Egypt and claimed the land. There were people living in Canaan >>> when king David conquered the land. There were people living in >>> Palestine when the Jews arrived from Europe and claimed the nation >>> Israel based upon a promise to Abram whose grandson Jacob abandoned >>> Canaan for Egypt. >>> >>> The British only held the land for thirty years, before giving away >>> the rights of ownership that went back almost a century. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> Following the >>> On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> Although I have NOT made any deep study of the Israeli/Palestinian >>>> conflict, I do not see the situation of the Palestinians as >>>> exactly parallel to that of the American Indians. As I understand >>>> it from what I have read, until the British arrived, Palestine >>>> consisted of several small cities and towns with a mixed >>>> population of all three Abrahamic religions, but mostly large, >>>> empty desert spaces thinly occupied by tribes of wandering >>>> Bedouins. Under British rule, inhabitants of adjacent regions-- >>>> Transjordan, Syria, etc... immigrated into the British >>>> protectorate in search of opportunity, often with British >>>> encouragement. Meanwhile, under the concept of Zionism, >>>> promulgated by some British politician whose name escapes me, Jews >>>> also began emigrating and buying land in the old land of their >>>> ancestors-- their very remote ancestors, in most cases. By the >>>> time of WWII, Palestine was a patchwork of private Jewish >>>> property, immigrant Muslim property, and large expanses of >>>> desert st >>> ill occupied mostly by the Bedouins, who became a neglected >>> minority-- and, as the original inhabitants, more in the position >>> of the American Indians than any of the other factions. ... >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Apr 26 16:10:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:10:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:22:15 -0700 Message-ID: <8529-4BD61D7B-4812@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mike wrote...As president of the US Handball Association, I am always on the lookout for people with ball connections ... Mike does this include odd balls like some of us in the grove.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100426/d20c68dc/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Mon Apr 26 16:48:45 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:48:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Are you registered to vote ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <4BD6265D.7010306@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100426/8d637aa0/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Apr 26 16:49:34 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D830D722@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Well, Hoss--it's important that the ball be uniform in its performance. For instance, the ball should rebound to a certain height when dropped from a certain height at a certain temperature. Grovenuts strike me as a fairly eclectic group--not highly uniform. I rather like that in them. :-) --Mike -----Original Message----- From: Alan Domenghini Sent: April 26, 2010 4:11 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? Mike wrote...As president of the US Handball Association, I am always on the lookout for people with ball connections ... Mike does this include odd balls like some of us in the grove.? From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Apr 26 18:50:17 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes Message-ID: <1738476432.145381.1272333017953.JavaMail.root@vznit170062> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100426/0289826e/attachment.html From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Apr 26 18:58:05 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes Message-ID: <344779412.145537.1272333485719.JavaMail.root@vznit170062> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100426/bc83f60c/attachment.html From k.wilke at mac.com Mon Apr 26 21:48:42 2010 From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:48:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> I found a pickleball organization and they had a local contact who has contacted me. I'm going to get to play some pickleball. =) Here is a link to the pickleball association: usapa.org Kurt On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Marian...thanks for this. I met Steve while playing golf a few years ago...and probably misquoted him. I think he's more properly credited with inventing the current ball in use. As president of the US Handball Association, I am always on the lookout for people with ball connections--research, development, manufacturers, etc. So, to correct the Grovenet record,give Steve credit for the ball. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:02 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > > Since it was invented here, I was curious to learn more. I know Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a source, but for something like this, it serves the purpose. The website gives credit to Joel Pritchard and Bill Bell of Washington State. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickleball > > It lists Steve Paranto as placing second in the first known Pickleball tournament in 1976. But no other mention of him. > > If there is a Forest Grove connection, perhaps we should have an annual Pickleball tournament - wouldn't that help our tourism? As I've said before, I wish Forest Grove would "think out of the box" a bit, and celebrate things that are unique to Forest Grove. Instead, Forest Grove continues to insist we could become known for our wine! Like there aren't hundreds of other communities across the US, known for wine.... > > Going after the "niche" markets makes more sense, than going after the stuff everyone else is already doing. > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:28 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? > >> BTW, Steve Parento, a Pacific grad, invented pickleball. >> >> --Mike >> >> ________________________________ >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning >> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:54 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pickleball anyone? >> >> Pickleball ? ? ? Who'da known ! ! ! But, it does appear to have only been copyrighted for about 20 years or so, so that appears to be the problem. All I know I learned more than 25 years ago ! ! >> >> bob "stickball" browning >> >> PS: And here I thought she was a left-handed monkey "wench" ! ? ! ? >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> On 4/23/2010 10:58 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >> Leave it to the judge to try to find a way to put his left-handed monkey >> >> wrench to work. >> >> >> >> http://pickleball.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Apr 26 23:06:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <1738476432.145381.1272333017953.JavaMail.root@vznit170062> References: <1738476432.145381.1272333017953.JavaMail.root@vznit170062> Message-ID: <872C8F1E-3A0C-41DD-820A-A9C5EF2E57AF@teleport.com> On Apr 26, 2010, at 6:50 PM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > > Just about every nation has its own creation myth. I'm old enough > to remember being told that Europeans came to America with humble, > loving, Christian intentions, but that no matter how hard they > tried to be fair and just to the Indians, the Indians just wouldn't > accept them, and became suicidal savages (terrorists) and attacked > the poor, loving, humble, settlers. > > During my lifetime this myth has been largely dispelled. > > Israel is a young nation and Holly gives a decent account of its > modern creation myth. Speaking of creation myths, I gather that at least up until a few years ago, the mountain citadel of Masada was regarded as the great symbol of Jewish resistance unto death, the last stand of brave and idealistic Jews called the Sicarii resisting the Roman invader to their final mass suicide. Later accounts seem to indicate that contemporary Jews regarded the Sicarii as a nest of extremist bandits who attacked other Jews as well as the Romans. But the site became a national shrine under the original myth, where new soldiers were ritually sworn into the Israeli army. Something like Bunker Hill was traditionally regarded as an American Victory, while actually the battle took place at Breed's Hill and was a defeat. WW > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 00:48:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:48:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <872C8F1E-3A0C-41DD-820A-A9C5EF2E57AF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <451570868.12381211272354502913.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What we were taught in school was not what our parents wanted taught in school. Mom told me that they had tests in the seventh grade that not even a high school graduate pass today. Exceptions? Of course. Been studying DNA with a research group in Greece. YES, some not too well, but the do speak English. About 70 percent of Greek men belong to haplogroup J2. Men from the Caucuses also score in the 70% range. The next largest percentage of J2 are men from Iraq at 50%.....wheras only 9% in Arabia are in that haplogroup. 17% to 28% of Palestinian men, depending on where they were tested, belong to J2. Because I knew several years ago that the Palestinians of historical note were in the area (Furtile Crescent) over 3,500 years ago, what surprised me most was that Shepherdic Jews tests range from 13% up to 27%, almost the same ration as the Palestinians. So it seems pretty clear why some writers claim Palestinians and Hebrews are DNA cousins. I really enjoyed the versions of history I have read here. Every history is a bit different, but overall fits and average pattern. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes On Apr 26, 2010, at 6:50 PM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > > Just about every nation has its own creation myth. I'm old enough > to remember being told that Europeans came to America with humble, > loving, Christian intentions, but that no matter how hard they > tried to be fair and just to the Indians, the Indians just wouldn't > accept them, and became suicidal savages (terrorists) and attacked > the poor, loving, humble, settlers. > > During my lifetime this myth has been largely dispelled. > > Israel is a young nation and Holly gives a decent account of its > modern creation myth. Speaking of creation myths, I gather that at least up until a few years ago, the mountain citadel of Masada was regarded as the great symbol of Jewish resistance unto death, the last stand of brave and idealistic Jews called the Sicarii resisting the Roman invader to their final mass suicide. Later accounts seem to indicate that contemporary Jews regarded the Sicarii as a nest of extremist bandits who attacked other Jews as well as the Romans. But the site became a national shrine under the original myth, where new soldiers were ritually sworn into the Israeli army. Something like Bunker Hill was traditionally regarded as an American Victory, while actually the battle took place at Breed's Hill and was a defeat. WW Same with San Juan Hill in Cuba. Not the right hill. From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 27 07:10:32 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:10:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <451570868.12381211272354502913.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <451570868.12381211272354502913.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: It is fascinating to contemplate how modern DNA studies are going to revolutionize the study of ancient history, and even family history. There was a lot more mixing going on in ancient times than anyone ever imagined-- including at least two waves of nomadic Westerners that ended up in China! With all the private companies now offering DNA analyses to the public, my niece wanted me to submit a Y sample to help untangle the obscure origins of my father's family. We had always had a cherished family tradition that there was some Absaroka Indian somewhere in that lineage. Turned out that was only a myth... the family line actually arose in Eastern Europe, a mere 25,000 years ago. Not even any Neanderthal in the mix. (They were a separate species, at any rate.) So much for dreams of ancient glory... On Apr 27, 2010, at 12:48 AM, donkelly wrote: > What we were taught in school was not what our parents wanted > taught in school. Mom told me that they had tests in the seventh > grade that not even a high school graduate pass today. Exceptions? > Of course. > > Been studying DNA with a research group in Greece. YES, some not > too well, but the do speak English. > > About 70 percent of Greek men belong to haplogroup J2. Men from the > Caucuses also score in the 70% range. The next largest percentage > of J2 are men from Iraq at 50%.....wheras only 9% in Arabia are in > that haplogroup. 17% to 28% of Palestinian men, depending on where > they were tested, belong to J2. > > Because I knew several years ago that the Palestinians of > historical note were in the area (Furtile Crescent) over 3,500 > years ago, what surprised me most was that Shepherdic Jews tests > range from 13% up to 27%, almost the same ration as the Palestinians. > > So it seems pretty clear why some writers claim Palestinians and > Hebrews are DNA cousins. > > I really enjoyed the versions of history I have read here. Every > history is a bit different, but overall fits and average pattern. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Taxes > > > On Apr 26, 2010, at 6:50 PM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > >> >> Just about every nation has its own creation myth. I'm old enough >> to remember being told that Europeans came to America with humble, >> loving, Christian intentions, but that no matter how hard they >> tried to be fair and just to the Indians, the Indians just wouldn't >> accept them, and became suicidal savages (terrorists) and attacked >> the poor, loving, humble, settlers. >> >> During my lifetime this myth has been largely dispelled. >> >> Israel is a young nation and Holly gives a decent account of its >> modern creation myth. > > Speaking of creation myths, I gather that at least up until a few > years ago, the mountain citadel of Masada was regarded as the great > symbol of Jewish resistance unto death, the last stand of brave and > idealistic Jews called the Sicarii resisting the Roman invader to > their final mass suicide. > Later accounts seem to indicate that contemporary Jews regarded the > Sicarii as a nest of extremist bandits who attacked other Jews as > well as the Romans. But the site became a national shrine under the > original myth, where new soldiers were ritually sworn into the > Israeli army. Something like Bunker Hill was traditionally regarded > as an American Victory, while actually the battle took place at > Breed's Hill and was a defeat. > WW > > Same with San Juan Hill in Cuba. Not the right hill. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 10:07:33 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Stab in the dark Message-ID: I am looking for anybody who would know the where abouts of Johannes Knies. My internet searches are not working. Short story== We bought our house from his parents (Dirk and Johanna) more than 25 years ago and they have since passed away. The people that I knew at the time who knew them think that he lived in Alaska for a while and then Arizona but they have lost track of him. I know that he also had a brother named Dirk Jr who is a missionary somewhere overseas (for the Baptist Church I believe). A letter came to our house address to Johannes from France. And if possible I would like to forward this to him. Are there any long time Forest Grovers lurking on grovenet who know where he is? Feel free to reply privately. I am happy to mark the letter return to sender but I thought it would be worth a stab to try to find him first. It's not every day you get a letter from France addressed to someone who lived here 25 years ago. Thanks. Katie From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 27 18:43:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:43:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Free Speech? References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> Message-ID: <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> Good commentary from a Canadian friend. Is "free speech" really free in the face of religion-based threats? Walt Begin forwarded message: > From: "Taral Wayne" > Date: April 27, 2010 6:25:40 PM PDT > To: > Subject: Free Speech. > > To be blunt, I never cared much for South Park. Parker and Stone > strike me as being personally smug and creepy. They throw rocks but > from no vantage of their own -- they have no point of view, just a > conviction that they're cleverer than people who do. But I'd stand > with them in any fight for freedom of speech. It is all the more > important that we support those whose opinions we disagree with. > > The insidious effect of Muslim clerics who threaten violence when > their religion is insulted is to make involuntary believers of us > all. What crime is blaspheming Allah if you don't believe in such > fairy tales? It can only be blasphemous if we acknowledge there is > a super named Allah who can be offended and take revenge. To a non- > believer there can be no such crime as blasphemy. I am a non- > believer. I admit to no such thing as blasphemy against any god, > boogeyman, or mythological figure. I object strenuously to bowing > down to anyone's altar by observing their obscene taboos. > > -- Taral Wayne > > Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/27/f-vp- > macdonald.html#ixzz0mLzf3YSY > > > > Free speech > > Neil Macdonald > > Except when South Park meets Islam > > Last Updated: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 | 5:07 PM ET > Comments16Recommend42 > > By Neil Macdonald CBC News > > We're all fierce free speechers in the news business, or at least > we're supposed to be. > > We're especially ferocious when somebody else is censoring > something, as Comedy Central did last week with its South Park > cartoon franchise. > > South Park has a habit of ridiculing religions without mercy. Jesus > downloads porn on the show, Buddha snorts coke, the Virgin Mary has > anal bleeding, and Scientology is described as a "big fat global > scam." > > But last week, in Episode 201, Comedy Central drew the line. > Satire, evidently, stops at Islam. > > For some reason, the prophet Muhammad appeared in that episode, > wearing a bear costume. His name is repeated by the characters. In > the end, though, Santa Claus pops out of the suit. Don't ask. The > plot is silliness itself. > > But the pious stalwarts behind the website www.revolutionmuslim.com > took another view. They implicitly threatened the show's creators, > Trey Parker and Matt Stone, with assassination for blasphemy. > > They posted a photo of the dead Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, > murdered for his criticism of Islam in 2004, saying it was a > warning of "what will likely happen" to Stone and Parker. > > Comedy Central caved instantly. > > Bleeps and bars > > Bleeps and censorship bars were installed on the cartoon. Then the > episode was removed from the cable channel's website entirely. > > Steve Albani, a Comedy Central spokesman, had "no comment" on why > the censorship was imposed. > > When I asked whether Comedy Central intends similar censorship if > other religious groups protest future satires of their faiths, he > also had "no comment." When I asked if the way to have offensive > material censored on Comedy Central is to issue a death threat, he > had "no comment." > > Not surprisingly, Comedy Central has been roasted in columns and > editorials across the U.S. > > Good, say I, and most journalists I know. Allowing fundamentalist > thugs to suppress speech is antithetical to what we do. Journalists > should stand arm in arm, every single one of us, with Parker and > Stone. > > But it didn't take much investigation for me to get past Albani and > his "no comments" and discover some understandable resentment at > Comedy Central over the beating they're taking in the mainstream > media. > > Journalism and satire > > As they see it, Comedy Central is a provider of satire, not a > journalistic outlet. > > What's more, they went to the length of consulting federal security > agencies before deciding to censor one of their own programs. > > And, third, if journalistic outlets were uniformly fearless in > challenging threats to their speech, their criticism of Comedy > Central might not have such a rich hypocritical odour. Which it does. > > Because when we in the news business are on the line of fire, under > attack by people who use bullying or legal mechanisms to shut down > coverage they don't like, our enthusiasm for free speech tends to > wane. > > The most obvious, but hardly the only, example is the saga of the > Danish cartoons. > > You'll recall that back in 2005, in reaction to murder and violence > against European critics of Islam (the filmmaker van Gogh among > them), the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons > depicting Muhammad, some ridiculing him. > > An editor's note accompanying the publications asserted that, in a > democracy, people have to be prepared to put up even with insults > to their religion. > > But a great many Muslims disagreed. Eventually, rioting and anti- > Western violence across the Muslim world killed more than 100 > people. Bombs were planted in Europe. There were death threats > against the cartoonists. > > Reprinting > > In covering the controversy, some newspapers reprinted the > offending cartoons, both to lend context to the news stories about > the riots and as a gesture of journalistic solidarity in the face > of violence. But far more didn't. > > In Canada, the Western Standard was just about alone in publishing > the cartoons. In fact, much of the coverage in Canada and elsewhere > in the West, actually scolded the Danes. > > Tony Burman, my old boss at the CBC and now the managing director > of the Arab-owned Al-Jazeera English network, gave that approach a > full-throated endorsement in a column on this website. > > First, Burman cited the Islamic prohibition on depicting Muhammad > in any manner. "To do otherwise," he wrote, "is to mock and > ridicule the faith." > > Then, having established that we shouldn't broadcast material that > might upset religious people (I have to wonder if Burman has ever > listened to the endless list of things evangelical Christians here > in the U.S. would like to see censored), Burman went on to denounce > the Danish cartoonists and newspapers for "an act of stupidity." > > "What if," he asked, "those cartoons had instead focused on > Christianity? And on Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary engaged in > unspeakably offensive acts? > > "Shouldn't the media be part of the solution, not the > problem?" (emphasis his). > > What if? > > Well. First of all, the conventional view is that journalists are > supposed to solve problems by exposing them, without fear or favour. > > Secondly, Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary and just about every > other religious icon have been mercilessly mocked in the Western > media, and in Hollywood. > > And the answer to Burman's "What if?" has been "not much." > > I remember going to see Monty Python's Life of Brian in 1979. It > ends with Brian ? Jesus Christ ? on the cross, singing the ditty > "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life." In the movie, his mother > performs oral sex on a Roman centurion. > > The Vatican was not amused, but I don't remember any riots or > beheadings outside theatres. > > There was a political uproar in 1987 when a photograph titled "P--- > Christ" was exhibited here in the United States. It showed a > crucifix immersed in a glass of the artist's urine. > > As art, it was just shock-value junk. But the uproar was over the > fact that public money funded the exhibit. Still, there were no > riots or blood in the streets, and the artist, unlike author Salman > Rushdie, was not declared a legitimate target for murder by all > right-thinking faithful. > > Double standard > > I singled out Burman's arguments here not to concentrate on CBC, or > his leadership. I actually regard him as a fine journalist of > considerable integrity. > > But in that column, he neatly summed up an attitude that ran > through almost the entire Canadian media at the time, one that not > all journalists agreed with. > > In fact, the Western Standard was eventually ordered by the Alberta > Human Rights commission, at the behest of a Muslim imam, to defend > its decision to publish the cartoons. > > Other journalists who have subsequently offended Muslims have > received the same summons, Mark Steyn, the conservative Canadian > expatriate writer, being one of the best examples. There have been > others, in other nations. > > In most cases, where Islam is concerned, the general silence from > the rest of the media has been remarkable. > > "It's a terrible double standard," Paul Schneidereit, past > president of the Canadian Association of Journalists, told me. > > Of course, religion is not the only censorious force mainstream > journalism finds difficult to face. Media outlets in general cower > before waves of patriotism or, more accurately, jingoism, in their > own audiences. > > Witness the self-censoring coverage of George W. Bush in the years > immediately following 9/11 ? including the almost wholesale > acceptance of the false pretences for the war with Iraq. > > Or the Associated Press's decision to suppress film of pro-al-Qaeda > demonstrations in Palestinian cities after Yasser Arafat's > officials threatened the employees who shot the footage. > > One could also cite the supine acceptance of military censorship in > order to "embed" reporters in places like Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, > Comedy Central appeased fanatics. > > But it would be nice to see Western journalism acquire some steel > in its own spine, rather than just hectoring others. > > Free speech is not really free. And it has more enemies than friends. > > > > Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/27/f-vp- > macdonald.html#ixzz0mLyAJVPm From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 19:05:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:05:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Free Speech? In-Reply-To: <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> Message-ID: Yielding to bullies is a real problem. The threat of violence is not an appropriate means to obtaining respect. The quick move to violent and threatening behavior is wrong. If Allah really cares about such things, Allah has the ability to correct the situation without the help of fanatics. And if there is no Allah, or Allah doesn't care, then there is no reason to care about the insults. David On Apr 27, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Good commentary from a Canadian friend. Is "free speech" really free > in the face of religion-based threats? > Walt > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Taral Wayne" >> ... >> The insidious effect of Muslim clerics who threaten violence when their religion is insulted is to make involuntary believers of us all. What crime is blaspheming Allah if you don't believe in such fairy tales? ... >> -- Taral Wayne >> >> Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/27/f-vp-macdonald.html#ixzz0mLzf3YSY >> >> By Neil Macdonald CBC News >> >> We're all fierce free speechers in the news business, or at least we're supposed to be. >> ... >> But last week, in Episode 201, Comedy Central drew the line. >> Satire, evidently, stops at Islam. >> ... >> But a great many Muslims disagreed. Eventually, rioting and anti-Western violence across the Muslim world killed more than 100 people. Bombs were planted in Europe. There were death threats against the cartoonists. From admin at ronhowden.com Tue Apr 27 19:23:13 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:23:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Free Speech? In-Reply-To: References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> Message-ID: <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> Well said David, I agree. Ron H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Free Speech? Yielding to bullies is a real problem. The threat of violence is not an appropriate means to obtaining respect. The quick move to violent and threatening behavior is wrong. If Allah really cares about such things, Allah has the ability to correct the situation without the help of fanatics. And if there is no Allah, or Allah doesn't care, then there is no reason to care about the insults. David On Apr 27, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Good commentary from a Canadian friend. Is "free speech" really free > in the face of religion-based threats? From k.wilke at mac.com Tue Apr 27 21:25:06 2010 From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:25:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> Message-ID: Different point of view that I thought some of you might find interesting. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea-party-was-black-tim-wise.html Kurt From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 21:41:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:41:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> Message-ID: Very Interesting, thanks for the link and the thinking... Katie On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Kurt Wilke wrote: > Different point of view that I thought some of you might find > interesting. > > Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > > Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- > party-was-black-tim-wise.html > > Kurt > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 22:04:36 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:04:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> Message-ID: <000001cae690$4ce67050$e6b350f0$@net> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What color is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Kurt Wilke > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Different point of view that I thought some of you might find > interesting. > > Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > > Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- > party-was-black-tim-wise.html > From waltw at teleport.com Tue Apr 27 22:44:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:44:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> Message-ID: <083D6951-8193-4321-BE4F-810561335192@teleport.com> Interesting indeed! Amazing how we have been conditioned to accept bizarre behavior as "normal" when it is displayed by the far right. WW On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Kurt Wilke wrote: > Different point of view that I thought some of you might find > interesting. > > Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > > Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- > party-was-black-tim-wise.html > > Kurt > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Apr 28 09:51:05 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:51:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition Message-ID: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> some needs to snoop this -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100428/9a3cddf9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ From edavie at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 10:10:06 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:10:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <000001cae690$4ce67050$e6b350f0$@net> References: <190130E80A654F22AE15C62068C01375@kiddeliduhch6g> <7D134020-C24E-468B-83B7-615C0EEB4246@teleport.com> <001801cae679$c4a83630$4df8a290$@com> <000001cae690$4ce67050$e6b350f0$@net> Message-ID: I think you know the answer to that! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steven Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What color is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Kurt Wilke > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Different point of view that I thought some of you might find > interesting. > > Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > > Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- > party-was-black-tim-wise.html > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 28 10:21:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:21:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition In-Reply-To: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C5DBCF5-A7F4-4362-8F95-B8B86FDB4C22@teleport.com> The heck with snooping it, I've already ordered 50 pounds of Ghiradelli's Best on the strength of the headline alone... I may keel over from sugar overdose, but they'll have to beat my liver to death with a stick... ;^) WW On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > some needs to snoop this > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 10:28:32 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:28:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition References: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4C5DBCF5-A7F4-4362-8F95-B8B86FDB4C22@teleport.com> Message-ID: LOL, Walt! :-D Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Wentz" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition > The heck with snooping it, I've already ordered 50 pounds of > Ghiradelli's Best on the strength of the headline alone... I may keel > over from sugar overdose, but they'll have to beat my liver to death > with a stick... > ;^) > WW > > > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> some needs to snoop this >> >> ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it >> >> >> >> >> Alan's Place >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From hannah at teleport.com Wed Apr 28 10:28:50 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition In-Reply-To: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I looked quickly on Snopes but didn?t see a good answer. However, many ?medical sites? online and on television have said that it is (in small amounts and the darker the better). Of course, they have been known to tell us something for years, and then reverse their decision. But I?ll bet many think this one is worth trying! Kristy On 4/28/10 11:51 AM, "Alan Domenghini" wrote: > some needs to snoop this > > > > ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > > > > > Alan's Place > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 10:34:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:34:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, they could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping our liberties and chipping away of our constitution. News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have disappeared within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other bee colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross polination. Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. Have a great day all.........and think about it. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Davie To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black I think you know the answer to that! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steven Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What color is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Kurt Wilke > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Different point of view that I thought some of you might find > interesting. > > Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > > Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- > party-was-black-tim-wise.html > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 11:24:05 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, that you can't do today? Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I > plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. > > I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, they > could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping our > liberties and chipping away of our constitution. > > News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are > disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have disappeared > within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other bee > colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have > been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a > couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross > polination. > > Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. > > Have a great day all.........and think about it. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Davie > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > I think you know the answer to that! > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Steven > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > > Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What > color > is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >> interesting. >> >> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >> >> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Apr 28 11:23:32 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:23:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Honey Bees Disappear (was: An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black) In-Reply-To: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <007901cae6ff$e8f7bfc0$bae73f40$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > [...] Scientists are disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees > in the US have disappeared within the last two years. Abandoned > hives are full of food, yet other bee colonies will not rob or even > enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have been found, so it is a > mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a couple of crops > raised in America do not depend on bees for cross polination. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's not actually quite the mystery you suggest. It's actually something called Colony Collapse Disorder and isn't a new phenomenon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder While the period from late-2006 to late-2008 represented a disproportionally high percentage of disappearances resulting in the coining of this term (though nothing near your 70% claim), the numbers released in June of 2009 show a decline in that trajectory meaning things are slowly starting to get better. If you have links to information supporting your claims, please feel free to include them in your response. Thanks, Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 28 11:37:13 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:37:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon makes Google Apps for Education available statewide Message-ID: <4BD88059.7070103@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100428/32400dce/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cdawson_53x53.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1898 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100428/32400dce/attachment.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 11:36:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:36:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, but just three for now......and three down the road. 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the government. Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional inactions. I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under socialist or cummunist rules. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Marian Cakarnis To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, that you can't do today? Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I > plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. > > I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, they > could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping our > liberties and chipping away of our constitution. > > News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are > disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have disappeared > within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other bee > colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have > been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a > couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross > polination. > > Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. > > Have a great day all.........and think about it. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Davie > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > I think you know the answer to that! > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Steven > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > > Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What > color > is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >> interesting. >> >> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >> >> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 11:41:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:41:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Honey Bees Disappear (was: An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black) In-Reply-To: <007901cae6ff$e8f7bfc0$bae73f40$@com> Message-ID: <1414601776.13068251272480114644.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Still they do not know the reasons, and that is both disturbing, and scary. Lots of articals out there; you found one and I read seven or eight others. None were encouraging. That is the scary part. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:23:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Honey Bees Disappear (was: An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black) Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > [...] Scientists are disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees > in the US have disappeared within the last two years. Abandoned > hives are full of food, yet other bee colonies will not rob or even > enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have been found, so it is a > mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a couple of crops > raised in America do not depend on bees for cross polination. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's not actually quite the mystery you suggest. It's actually something called Colony Collapse Disorder and isn't a new phenomenon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder While the period from late-2006 to late-2008 represented a disproportionally high percentage of disappearances resulting in the coining of this term (though nothing near your 70% claim), the numbers released in June of 2009 show a decline in that trajectory meaning things are slowly starting to get better. If you have links to information supporting your claims, please feel free to include them in your response. Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 11:49:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:49:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon makes Google Apps for Education available statewide In-Reply-To: <4BD88059.7070103@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <301644558.13071501272480558229.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, on the surface at least it looks like good news. Who will administer this program, and provide the material to teach kids, could be the bad news. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I am not as concerned about control of this curriculum at the state level. I am concerned about federal intervention, by attempts to control what and how children are trained as they are already doing outside of Oregon. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:37:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon makes Google Apps for Education available statewide Hey, a little something positive for Oregon!! Maybe scarcity will ultimately become the mother of necessity. Of course, by then we will have lost a full generation of school children!

bob "who'da thought it" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ZDNet Education

 April 28th, 2010

Oregon makes Google Apps for Education available statewide

Posted by Christopher Dawson

Oregon education officials announced today that it would be the first state in the country to offer Google Apps for Education to all of its K-12 schools. Although adoption at the school level is voluntary, the state is hoping to save $1.5 million each year on email costs. Cost savings, however, are secondary to the goal of providing students and staff with access to state-of-the-art cloud-based communication and collaboration tools.

According to State Schools Superintendent, Susan Castillo,

“Educators and students now have access to the same cutting-edge technology used in the business world with added federal student privacy and confidentiality protections…In a time of dwindling resources, I am grateful for Google’s partnership. Our students have a wonderful opportunity to prepare for the workplace by using workplace technology in the classroom.”

Interestingly, Google and the Oregon Department of Education partnered to create “a unique user agreement that met state legal requirements and provided adequate compliance around federal student records and safety protections.” As with Google’s Apps provided to schools and businesses elsewhere, schools and districts in Oregon will be able to have their own domain(s), provision roles and capabilities to students and staff, and manage user security with integrated Postini features.

This effort is part of a larger public-private partnership called Accelerate Oregon that has brought funding and technology from Google, Intel, SMART, Cisco, and others together with Oregon schools. The goals for partners include being able to

  • Influence the developing skills of your incoming workforce
  • Build out technology partnerships in our schools
  • Open sales channels and demonstrate corporate social responsibility

Sounds like a win-win to me. Corporate partners get incredible exposure and help build a skilled, modern workforce while schools receive grant funding and technical assistance for everything from SMART board rollouts to Google Apps implementations. As federal and state funding become increasingly dismal, particularly for any schools not willing to buy into Race to the Top, such partnerships between industry and schools will become vital to ensuring access to technology and professional development.

Christopher Dawson

Follow Chris Dawson on Twitter! Christopher Dawson is the technology director for the Athol-Royalston School District in northern Massachusetts and a member of the Internet Press Guild. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations, but always keep in mind that the opinions expressed here are his own and not those of his daytime employer, even if he talks incessantly about his day job. They aren't even the opinions of ZDNet or CBS Interactive. They're just his.


From rab at jurislex.com Wed Apr 28 11:51:54 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:51:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BD883CA.8070506@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100428/6f4749f3/attachment.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:14:40 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:14:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Don, I hate to break the news to you, but the facts (those darned facts again!), are not as you listed them below. 1. You will still be able to choose any doctor you like, or none if you so choose 2. You will be able to buy insurance from any company who offers services in your area. AND for the first time ever, the insurance company won't be able to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition - imagine that! 3. You will not be required to buy insurance from the government. Actually the government is not in the market of selling insurance. You will be required to buy insurance from an insurance company. If you don't, you will NOT be arrested, but will need to pay a fine - just like the requirement to have automobile insurance. I'm sorry that you form your opinions and make decisions, on lies and myths. In the past, you've said you don't want to be confused by the facts, which I find quite sad. If you choose to operate in this way, that is fine with me, but please don't perpetuate the lies and myths to others who might prefer to have the facts. Thank you, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, but > just three for now......and three down the road. > > 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. > > 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. > > 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the > government. > > Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. > Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being > forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional > inactions. > > I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under > socialist or cummunist rules. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you > personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years > ago, that you can't do today? > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > >> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I >> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >> >> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, >> they >> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping >> our >> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >> >> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are >> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >> disappeared >> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other >> bee >> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have >> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a >> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >> polination. >> >> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >> >> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Davie >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> I think you know the answer to that! >> Ed >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> From: Steven >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> >> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What >> color >> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>> interesting. >>> >>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>> >>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From phoenixacup at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 12:15:47 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:15:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition In-Reply-To: References: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4C5DBCF5-A7F4-4362-8F95-B8B86FDB4C22@teleport.com> Message-ID: Is this the second or third time that we have had the "Is chocolate good for you?" discussion on Grovenet? Hope springs eternal... Jane B-P On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Geri wrote: > LOL, Walt! :-D > > Geri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Walt Wentz" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:21 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet > and nutrition > > > > The heck with snooping it, I've already ordered 50 pounds of > > Ghiradelli's Best on the strength of the headline alone... I may keel > > over from sugar overdose, but they'll have to beat my liver to death > > with a stick... > > ;^) > > WW > > > > > > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > > >> some needs to snoop this > >> > >> ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Alan's Place > >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From kennybc at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:16:23 2010 From: kennybc at verizon.net (Ken Centers) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:16:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Final Weekend of CABARET at TITG In-Reply-To: <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <201004281916.o3SJGGuk004728@mail.ipinc.net> Hello All, Just wanted to let you know that this weekend is the final weekend for Theatre In The Grove's production of CABARET. Remaining performances are this Friday and Saturday at 8:00pm, and Sunday at 2:30pm. The response to the show has been amazing. Tickets for these performances are going fast. The box office will be open Thursday and Saturday from Noon until 3:00pm, and one hour before each performance. A friend of the production gleaned the following from audiences who have seen the show: Season ticket holders for many years - "this is the best show we've ever seen at TITG" Our retired pastor and his wife said that the TITG production is better than the performance they saw at University of Portland. From someone who has seen many Caberet productions - "best ending I've ever seen". This production contains mature themes and parental discretion is advised. I hope you can attend. Ken Centers From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 12:23:52 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:23:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition References: <19820-4BD86779-5355@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><4C5DBCF5-A7F4-4362-8F95-B8B86FDB4C22@teleport.com> Message-ID: <301583FC620F4E18A93074B3239CA318@gerianehzkfhvy> "Hope springs eternal...among chocoholics," LOL! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition > Is this the second or third time that we have had the "Is chocolate good for > you?" discussion on Grovenet? > > Hope springs eternal... > > Jane B-P > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Geri wrote: > >> LOL, Walt! :-D >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:21 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet >> and nutrition >> >> >> > The heck with snooping it, I've already ordered 50 pounds of >> > Ghiradelli's Best on the strength of the headline alone... I may keel >> > over from sugar overdose, but they'll have to beat my liver to death >> > with a stick... >> > ;^) >> > WW >> > >> > >> > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> > >> >> some needs to snoop this >> >> >> >> ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Alan's Place >> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > -- > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:27:49 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Final Weekend of CABARET at TITG In-Reply-To: <201004281916.o3SJGGuk004728@mail.ipinc.net> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> <201004281916.o3SJGGuk004728@mail.ipinc.net> Message-ID: <93AD08FD7023469B9E5FDC2BE869FBE9@JeffVAIO> I saw it last weekend and can vouch for the fact - it is an awesome production. The acting was top notch and the singing and dancing were first rate! The ending "moved" all of us and brought tears to my eyes. You will not find better entertainment for the price of admission ($12 adults, $10 seniors and students). Live theatre at its best. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Centers" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:16 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] Final Weekend of CABARET at TITG > > Hello All, > > Just wanted to let you know that this weekend is the final weekend > for Theatre In The Grove's production of CABARET. > > Remaining performances are this Friday and Saturday at 8:00pm, and > Sunday at 2:30pm. > > The response to the show has been amazing. Tickets for these > performances are going fast. The box office will be open Thursday and > Saturday from Noon until 3:00pm, and one hour before each performance. > > A friend of the production gleaned the following from audiences who > have seen the show: > > Season ticket holders for many years - "this is the best show we've > ever seen at TITG" > Our retired pastor and his wife said that the TITG production is > better than the performance they saw at University of Portland. > From someone who has seen many Caberet productions - "best ending > I've ever seen". > > This production contains mature themes and parental discretion is advised. > > I hope you can attend. > > Ken Centers > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 12:27:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:27:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition In-Reply-To: <301583FC620F4E18A93074B3239CA318@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <1427691733.13087791272482844824.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> LOL, the sugar would kill me before the chocolate had a chance. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Geri To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:23:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition "Hope springs eternal...among chocoholics," LOL! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet and nutrition > Is this the second or third time that we have had the "Is chocolate good for > you?" discussion on Grovenet? > > Hope springs eternal... > > Jane B-P > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Geri wrote: > >> LOL, Walt! :-D >> >> Geri >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:21 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dark chocolate may be good for your liver - Diet >> and nutrition >> >> >> > The heck with snooping it, I've already ordered 50 pounds of >> > Ghiradelli's Best on the strength of the headline alone... I may keel >> > over from sugar overdose, but they'll have to beat my liver to death >> > with a stick... >> > ;^) >> > WW >> > >> > >> > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> > >> >> some needs to snoop this >> >> >> >> ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Alan's Place >> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36561533/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > -- > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kennybc at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:30:20 2010 From: kennybc at verizon.net (Ken Centers) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:30:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Final Weekend of CABARET at TITG In-Reply-To: <93AD08FD7023469B9E5FDC2BE869FBE9@JeffVAIO> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4EF46D3069234775B76F60A671774C54@JeffVAIO> <201004281916.o3SJGGuk004728@mail.ipinc.net> <93AD08FD7023469B9E5FDC2BE869FBE9@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <201004281930.o3SJUBMl009350@mail.ipinc.net> Thanks Marian! I will relay your comments to the cast and crew. Ken At 12:27 PM 4/28/2010, you wrote: >I saw it last weekend and can vouch for the fact - it is an awesome >production. The acting was top notch and the singing and dancing were first >rate! The ending "moved" all of us and brought tears to my eyes. > >You will not find better entertainment for the price of admission ($12 >adults, $10 seniors and students). Live theatre at its best. > >Marian > >-------------------------------------------------- >From: "Ken Centers" >Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:16 PM >To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >Subject: [Grovenet] Final Weekend of CABARET at TITG > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Just wanted to let you know that this weekend is the final weekend > > for Theatre In The Grove's production of CABARET. > > > > Remaining performances are this Friday and Saturday at 8:00pm, and > > Sunday at 2:30pm. > > > > The response to the show has been amazing. Tickets for these > > performances are going fast. The box office will be open Thursday and > > Saturday from Noon until 3:00pm, and one hour before each performance. > > > > A friend of the production gleaned the following from audiences who > > have seen the show: > > > > Season ticket holders for many years - "this is the best show we've > > ever seen at TITG" > > Our retired pastor and his wife said that the TITG production is > > better than the performance they saw at University of Portland. > > From someone who has seen many Caberet productions - "best ending > > I've ever seen". > > > > This production contains mature themes and parental discretion is advised. > > > > I hope you can attend. > > > > Ken Centers > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet at rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 12:25:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2076566225.13087041272482748415.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I read the whole bill when it was online, every page. What it said does not support your facts.....wake up. I grant that changes have been made that we have not seen, have not to my knowledge been placed online. They may mitigate what you say now, but do not change what was said in the original bill. Get your facts straight before you challenge the facts as I saw them. Thanks for asking. PS: It is nothing like auto insurance. You can choose not to drive or own a car. You cannot pick and choose when you are bound by a socialistic bill, and backed by law enforcement. Level of freedom of choice is not the same, not even close. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marian Cakarnis To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Don, I hate to break the news to you, but the facts (those darned facts again!), are not as you listed them below. 1. You will still be able to choose any doctor you like, or none if you so choose 2. You will be able to buy insurance from any company who offers services in your area. AND for the first time ever, the insurance company won't be able to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition - imagine that! 3. You will not be required to buy insurance from the government. Actually the government is not in the market of selling insurance. You will be required to buy insurance from an insurance company. If you don't, you will NOT be arrested, but will need to pay a fine - just like the requirement to have automobile insurance. I'm sorry that you form your opinions and make decisions, on lies and myths. In the past, you've said you don't want to be confused by the facts, which I find quite sad. If you choose to operate in this way, that is fine with me, but please don't perpetuate the lies and myths to others who might prefer to have the facts. Thank you, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, but > just three for now......and three down the road. > > 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. > > 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. > > 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the > government. > > Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. > Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being > forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional > inactions. > > I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under > socialist or cummunist rules. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you > personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years > ago, that you can't do today? > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > >> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I >> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >> >> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, >> they >> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping >> our >> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >> >> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are >> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >> disappeared >> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other >> bee >> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have >> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a >> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >> polination. >> >> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >> >> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Davie >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> I think you know the answer to that! >> Ed >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> From: Steven >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> >> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What >> color >> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>> interesting. >>> >>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>> >>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:52:31 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:52:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <2076566225.13087041272482748415.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2076566225.13087041272482748415.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Jeff? Please help!!! You are better at this than I am.... And Don... I'm sorry, but in all the posts you've submitted to GroveNet, I have yet to see facts which can be substantiated. Unfortunately you are inclined to believe what you want to hear. Therefore no amount of supporting evidence will convince you of the facts. Like I said below, believe what you want - but if you refuse to provide evidence which can be substantiated, and continue to refuse the facts, then these conversations, add no value whatsoever. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:25 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > I read the whole bill when it was online, every page. > > What it said does not support your facts.....wake up. > > I grant that changes have been made that we have not seen, have not to my > knowledge been placed online. They may mitigate what you say now, but do > not change what was said in the original bill. > > Get your facts straight before you challenge the facts as I saw them. > > Thanks for asking. > > PS: It is nothing like auto insurance. You can choose not to drive or own > a car. You cannot pick and choose when you are bound by a socialistic > bill, and backed by law enforcement. Level of freedom of choice is not the > same, not even close. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:14:40 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Don, > > I hate to break the news to you, but the facts (those darned facts > again!), > are not as you listed them below. > 1. You will still be able to choose any doctor you like, or none if you > so > choose > 2. You will be able to buy insurance from any company who offers services > in your area. AND for the first time ever, the insurance company won't be > able to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition - imagine > that! > 3. You will not be required to buy insurance from the government. > Actually > the government is not in the market of selling insurance. You will be > required to buy insurance from an insurance company. If you don't, you > will > NOT be arrested, but will need to pay a fine - just like the requirement > to > have automobile insurance. > > I'm sorry that you form your opinions and make decisions, on lies and > myths. > In the past, you've said you don't want to be confused by the facts, which > I > find quite sad. If you choose to operate in this way, that is fine with > me, > but please don't perpetuate the lies and myths to others who might prefer > to > have the facts. > > Thank you, > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > >> There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, >> but >> just three for now......and three down the road. >> >> 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. >> >> 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. >> >> 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the >> government. >> >> Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. >> Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being >> forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional >> inactions. >> >> I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under >> socialist or cummunist rules. >> >> don >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Marian Cakarnis >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you >> personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years >> ago, that you can't do today? >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "donkelly" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >>> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I >>> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >>> >>> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, >>> they >>> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping >>> our >>> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >>> >>> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists >>> are >>> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >>> disappeared >>> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other >>> bee >>> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees >>> have >>> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a >>> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >>> polination. >>> >>> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >>> >>> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Ed Davie >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> I think you know the answer to that! >>> Ed >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Steven >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> >>> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What >>> color >>> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>>> Black >>>> >>>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>>> interesting. >>>> >>>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>>> >>>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:51:04 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:51:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: It's really amazing that anyone could be as wrong as often as you can, Don! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, but just three for now......and three down the road. 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the government. Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional inactions. I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under socialist or cummunist rules. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Marian Cakarnis To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, that you can't do today? Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I > plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. > > I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, they > could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping our > liberties and chipping away of our constitution. > > News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are > disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have disappeared > within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other bee > colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have > been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a > couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross > polination. > > Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. > > Have a great day all.........and think about it. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Davie > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > I think you know the answer to that! > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Steven > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > > Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What > color > is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >> interesting. >> >> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >> >> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:51:52 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:51:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3A7ED5AB-AC4B-4166-A32B-86BD1F8E33D4@verizon.net> Did you get to choose your doctor under Bush? Or did your doctor get to choose whether to take you as a patient under the terms of your insurance plan? I suspect that the corporate powers controlling you are far greater than you realize. Katie On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our > throats, but just three for now......and three down the road. > > 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. > > 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. > > 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance > from the government. > > Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional > laws. Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self > defense. Being forced to live under socialistic, communist and > unconstitutional inactions. > > I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under > socialist or cummunist rules. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from > you > personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 > years > ago, that you can't do today? > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was > Black > >> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but >> sometimes I >> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >> >> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and >> together, they >> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one >> usurping our >> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >> >> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. >> Scientists are >> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >> disappeared >> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet >> other bee >> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead >> bees have >> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. >> Only a >> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >> polination. >> >> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >> >> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Davie >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the >> Teaparty was >> Black >> >> I think you know the answer to that! >> Ed >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------- >> >> >> >> From: Steven >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the >> Teaparty was >> Black >> >> >> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? >> What >> color >> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>> interesting. >>> >>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>> >>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 12:53:06 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: References: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7026A009971D472E9D0C85C3CB90ED5C@EdDaviePC> Well stated, Marian. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marian Cakarnis Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Don, I hate to break the news to you, but the facts (those darned facts again!), are not as you listed them below. 1. You will still be able to choose any doctor you like, or none if you so choose 2. You will be able to buy insurance from any company who offers services in your area. AND for the first time ever, the insurance company won't be able to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition - imagine that! 3. You will not be required to buy insurance from the government. Actually the government is not in the market of selling insurance. You will be required to buy insurance from an insurance company. If you don't, you will NOT be arrested, but will need to pay a fine - just like the requirement to have automobile insurance. I'm sorry that you form your opinions and make decisions, on lies and myths. In the past, you've said you don't want to be confused by the facts, which I find quite sad. If you choose to operate in this way, that is fine with me, but please don't perpetuate the lies and myths to others who might prefer to have the facts. Thank you, Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, but > just three for now......and three down the road. > > 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. > > 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. > > 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the > government. > > Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. > Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being > forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional > inactions. > > I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under > socialist or cummunist rules. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you > personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years > ago, that you can't do today? > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > >> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I >> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >> >> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, >> they >> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping >> our >> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >> >> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists are >> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >> disappeared >> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other >> bee >> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees have >> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a >> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >> polination. >> >> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >> >> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Davie >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> I think you know the answer to that! >> Ed >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> From: Steven >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> >> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What >> color >> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>> interesting. >>> >>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>> >>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 28 12:56:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:56:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2123371099.13034691272476054845.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Having once kept and studied honeybees, I have been following this story with some anxiety for the past two years. The abandoned hive syndrome is indeed worrisome. Of all the suspected causes, the overuse of pesticides and introduced diseases seem most likely. Apiarists and scientists are working on the problem, and if they can't find a solution, then some food crops will become much more expensive and labor-intensive. I don't know whether mason bees can take up part of the load, but mason bees are not as efficient as honeybees. WW On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:34 AM, donkelly wrote: > I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but > sometimes I plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. > > I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and > together, they could project a powerful face to a government that > one by one usurping our liberties and chipping away of our > constitution. > > News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. > Scientists are disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in > the US have disappeared within the last two years. Abandoned hives > are full of food, yet other bee colonies will not rob or even enter > the abandoned hive. No dead bees have been found, so it is a > mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a couple of crops > raised in America do not depend on bees for cross polination. > > Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. > > Have a great day all.........and think about it. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Davie > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > I think you know the answer to that! > Ed > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > From: Steven > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > > Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? > What color > is the democrat party? What color is the United States? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >> interesting. >> >> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >> >> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Apr 28 13:04:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:04:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: References: <944278180.13065561272479798772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5003BC10-BE0A-4CF8-861A-43D847612E06@teleport.com> Perhaps some sort of trophy or award is in order? On Apr 28, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > It's really amazing that anyone could be as wrong as often as you > can, Don! > Ed > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > From: donkelly > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > > There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our > throats, but just three for now......and three down the road. > > 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. > > 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. > > 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance > from the government. > > Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional > laws. Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self > defense. Being forced to live under socialistic, communist and > unconstitutional inactions. > > I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under > socialist or cummunist rules. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from > you > personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 > years > ago, that you can't do today? > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was > Black > >> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but >> sometimes I >> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >> >> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and >> together, they >> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one >> usurping our >> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >> >> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. >> Scientists are >> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >> disappeared >> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet >> other bee >> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead >> bees have >> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. >> Only a >> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >> polination. >> >> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >> >> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Davie >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the >> Teaparty was >> Black >> >> I think you know the answer to that! >> Ed >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------- >> >> >> >> From: Steven >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the >> Teaparty was >> Black >> >> >> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? >> What >> color >> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>> interesting. >>> >>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>> >>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 13:00:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:00:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <260074765.13101551272484848416.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, yes Marian. I did source the obamacare bill which was online for awhile. That was the source. I do not need to ask you if you read it. Evidently you did not, but I will apologise if you did. We would be in the minority because most of congress did not read it either. Very few said they did. They are the idiots who voted for a pig in a poke. Thank you don ----- Original Message ----- From: Marian Cakarnis To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black Jeff? Please help!!! You are better at this than I am.... And Don... I'm sorry, but in all the posts you've submitted to GroveNet, I have yet to see facts which can be substantiated. Unfortunately you are inclined to believe what you want to hear. Therefore no amount of supporting evidence will convince you of the facts. Like I said below, believe what you want - but if you refuse to provide evidence which can be substantiated, and continue to refuse the facts, then these conversations, add no value whatsoever. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "donkelly" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:25 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black > I read the whole bill when it was online, every page. > > What it said does not support your facts.....wake up. > > I grant that changes have been made that we have not seen, have not to my > knowledge been placed online. They may mitigate what you say now, but do > not change what was said in the original bill. > > Get your facts straight before you challenge the facts as I saw them. > > Thanks for asking. > > PS: It is nothing like auto insurance. You can choose not to drive or own > a car. You cannot pick and choose when you are bound by a socialistic > bill, and backed by law enforcement. Level of freedom of choice is not the > same, not even close. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:14:40 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > > Don, > > I hate to break the news to you, but the facts (those darned facts > again!), > are not as you listed them below. > 1. You will still be able to choose any doctor you like, or none if you > so > choose > 2. You will be able to buy insurance from any company who offers services > in your area. AND for the first time ever, the insurance company won't be > able to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition - imagine > that! > 3. You will not be required to buy insurance from the government. > Actually > the government is not in the market of selling insurance. You will be > required to buy insurance from an insurance company. If you don't, you > will > NOT be arrested, but will need to pay a fine - just like the requirement > to > have automobile insurance. > > I'm sorry that you form your opinions and make decisions, on lies and > myths. > In the past, you've said you don't want to be confused by the facts, which > I > find quite sad. If you choose to operate in this way, that is fine with > me, > but please don't perpetuate the lies and myths to others who might prefer > to > have the facts. > > Thank you, > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "donkelly" > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was > Black > >> There are many just this year, and more being jammed down our throats, >> but >> just three for now......and three down the road. >> >> 1. By law soon I cannot choose my doctor. >> >> 2. By law soon I cannot choose my insurance company. >> >> 3. By law soon I could be arrested if I refused to by insurance from the >> government. >> >> Down the road, being taxed to support illegal unconstitutional laws. >> Deprived of the constitutional right to bear arms for self defense. Being >> forced to live under socialistic, communist and unconstitutional >> inactions. >> >> I want my country back.....bottom line. I don't want to live under >> socialist or cummunist rules. >> >> don >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Marian Cakarnis >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:05 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >> Just wondering.... exactly what liberties have been taken away from you >> personally? In other words, what is it you could do 10 or 20 or 30 years >> ago, that you can't do today? >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "donkelly" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:34 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >> Black >> >>> I have heard the saying, "Be careful what you wish for," but sometimes I >>> plunge in anyway with yet another point of view. >>> >>> I wish there was a black tea party. With similar views, and together, >>> they >>> could project a powerful face to a government that one by one usurping >>> our >>> liberties and chipping away of our constitution. >>> >>> News yesterday came that if true bodes bad news for crops. Scientists >>> are >>> disturbed by an estimate that 70% of honey bees in the US have >>> disappeared >>> within the last two years. Abandoned hives are full of food, yet other >>> bee >>> colonies will not rob or even enter the abandoned hive. No dead bees >>> have >>> been found, so it is a mystery where these missing swarms went. Only a >>> couple of crops raised in America do not depend on bees for cross >>> polination. >>> >>> Elsewhere, news today few of which are reported by major media. >>> >>> Have a great day all.........and think about it. >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Ed Davie >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:06 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> I think you know the answer to that! >>> Ed >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Steven >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:04 PM >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>> Black >>> >>> >>> Another freaking bigot. What color do you think the tea party is? What >>> color >>> is the democrat party? What color is the United States? >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Kurt Wilke >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:25 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was >>>> Black >>>> >>>> Different point of view that I thought some of you might find >>>> interesting. >>>> >>>> Imagine if the Teaparty was Black >>>> >>>> Link: http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea- >>>> party-was-black-tim-wise.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Apr 28 13:10:07 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:10:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FlashAlert - WED 12:58 pm Message-ID: <007E9081231447ECB7CCA4CAC5D0AF1D@JeffVAIO> FYI... -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:58 PM To: Subject: FlashAlert - WED 12:58 pm > Washington