From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Feb  1 10:03:36 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:03:36 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !
Message-ID: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100201/943d4e3a/attachment.html 

From phoenixacup at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 10:31:32 2010
From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:31:32 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !
In-Reply-To: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
References: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <d6eeab3d1002011031x5f9a5c98ra6c9bfcdbc204a27@mail.gmail.com>

I just read Ron Clark's The Essential 55 this week end.  Good book and a
great teacher.

Jane B-P

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

>  Tell me what you think makes a great teacher ? ?
>
> bob "teach me, Teach" browning
>  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ What Makes a Great Teacher?
>
> By Anthony Cody <http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/> on February
> 1, 2010 7:14 PM |
>
> The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is preparing to invest $45 million on
> research to discover what makes a teacher great. This week, retired teacher
> James D. Starkey offered his list of ten qualities<http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/02/03/20starkey_ep.h29.html>in an Education Week column. I am going to offer my own suggestions here,
> and invite you to offer yours as well, but first I must make an observation
> about the hubris involved in this enterprise. Our definition of what makes a
> teacher great is a Rorschach test revealing our own philosophy of education.
> So the most important part of this process would be an in depth review of
> our cultural values to determine what education should be, because a great
> teacher is only great in the context of these expectations. And what is
> great in one setting might be disastrous in another. Our current system of
> measuring student achievement missed this step and we are paying a huge
> price as a consequence. We should not make the same mistake in defining
> teacher quality.
>
> So I offer my own suggestions, explicitly stating the values that drive
> them.
>
> *First Value: The Interests of our Students come First*
> Great teachers place the interests of their students first. That means they
> consider their future lives when making decisions about how and what to
> teach them. They look at each of them as an individual and try to shape that
> child's experience to help him or her succeed. I just heard a wonderful
> story on This American Life (in the episode titled "2010"<http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Archive.aspx?year=2010#1>)
> about a child named Lewis, who was struggling earlier this year. Typical 6th
> grade boy troubles - difficulty focusing on his work, distracting
> classmates, etc. Then one day he asked for five minutes of "Lewis time" in
> front of the class. A light bulb went on for his teachers, who from that day
> forward, would allow him five minutes every morning to hold forth, sing
> songs, tell stories from home, and teach the class whatever he wanted. But
> only if he earned it the day before. With this connection, he became far
> more able to focus and learn. We need to be constantly on the lookout, as
> teachers, for that hook that we can use to engage, motivate and focus our
> students. And we should evaluate every choice we make to see what is in
> their best long-term interests.
>
>
> *Second Value: A Passion for Learning*
> Great teachers needs to be able to transmit to their students a passion for
> learning about the world. Whatever the subject, we need to make it come
> alive in our classroom. We are not learning because something is on a test.
> We are learning because this is fascinating! Each of us has our own special
> area of passion - it might be music, or math, or biology. If we are lucky we
> get to spend time sharing that excitement with our students. A great teacher
> finds ways to build on that and take the students deep into the subject. I
> love turning students on to evolution, and I have a whole collection of
> fossils, including a genuine dinosaur egg, that I bring to class for the
> students to hold in their hands. That spark is infectious and is a precious
> thing. Great teachers feed those sparks and keep them burning by ongoing
> involvement in their subject - as a science teacher taking part in field
> research or real laboratory work, as an English teacher reading and writing
> literature, or a history teacher conducting research into the past. And the
> best thing is when we can connect our students to this work in real ways,
> getting them involved in projects where they are interviewing elders for
> history class, or doing field research themselves.
>
> *Third Value: Community Building*
> Each classroom of students is either a collection of 32 individuals, or a
> community of learners actively supporting one another. A great teacher can
> build a functioning community that learns together, and the students who are
> a part of that community will learn a great deal more as a result. They will
> learn more of their subject matter, because they will share their knowledge
> and help one another, and they will also learn the precious skill of
> collaboration. A great teacher knows how to structure teamwork so that
> individual effort is still required and recognized, but the groups
> nonetheless produce work that is greater than the sum of the parts.
>
> Great teachers extend their sense of community beyond the walls of their
> classrooms, to collaborate with peers across the school and district -- and
> even country. They share curriculum, project ideas, and other resources, and
> actively collaborate with peers to conduct teacher research, do lesson
> study, or serve as mentors.
> *
> What do you think? What values and characteristics come to mind when you
> think of the great teachers you encountered in your life? [If you are a
> teacher, w]hat do you do that makes YOU great?
> *
>
> *[image: Teacher Leaders Network] <http://www.teacherleaders.org>*
>  *Views expressed in this blog are strictly those of the author and do not
> reflect the endorsement of Education Week or Editorial Projects in
> Education, which take no editorial positions. *
> **
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>


-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 11:17:49 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !
In-Reply-To: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
References: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <823230.28380.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Excellent topic, Bob. What makes a good teacher? Here are nine to chew on for ya:

1. Strong, positive, contagious energy that keeps students on the edges of their chairs and anxious to learn what comes next. (State-of-the art motivational teaching techniques should not end with Sesame Street.)

2. Keeps current on the latest multi-sensory learning techniques and curriculums and implements them in the classroom. Recognize that students have different learning styles. Implementing multi-sensory learning techniques far better ensures that all students will "get it".

3. Uncommon ability to convey warmth and attention to all students without playing favorites. Hypocrisy and unfairness have no place in the classroom.

4. Constantly on the lookout for new, innovative techniques and hands-on projects that keep students engaged. No coasting on the job once you've been teaching for a while!

5. Strong emphasis on teaching organizational and time-management skills.

6. Understands that homework should be meaningful and relevant and that assigning busywork is no less than child abuse. Children need to be allowed to have healthy childhoods after school and should never be assigned homework for the sake of homework. No more scrambled word puzzles! Enough already!!!

7. Teaches research and report writing skills, starting as young as Grade 3, using a systematic, step-by-step approach that prepares students to become life-long learners. (The idea is to teach students how to research and learn on their own, and that learning about what they want to learn, over time, will become more and more important than learning about what their teacher wants them to learn.)

8. Superior emphasis on writing skills. (Most teachers need to go back to school and beef up their own writing skills to achieve this. I can't tell you how many times I became angry about the poor writing quality of my kids' teachers when my kids were progressing through school. How can teachers teach kids expert writing skills when so many of them are not expert writers themselves? We should not be graduating teachers from college curricullums unless they pass more stringent requirements that better ensure their expert writing skills.)

9. Math and science teachers should never be people for whom these subjects came easily. They should be people for whom these subjects were difficult as students. We need teachers who understand how hard these subjects can be for those not oriented toward these subjects. We need teachers who can give students the extra help they need to learn these subjects without so much difficulty and distress. We need teachers who can say, "This was also difficult for me and here are some tricks that helped me to overcome that difficulty."

Holly









________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 10:03:36 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !

Tell me what you think makes a great teacher ? ?

bob "teach me, Teach" browning
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  
What Makes a Great Teacher?
By Anthony
Codyon February
1, 2010 7:14 PM | 
The Bill
and Melinda Gates Foundation is preparing to invest $45 million on
research to
discover what makes a teacher great. This week, retired teacher James
D.
Starkey offered his
list
of ten qualities in an Education Week column. I am going to offer
my
own suggestions here, and invite you to offer yours as well, but first
I must
make an observation about the hubris involved in this enterprise. Our
definition
of what makes a teacher great is a Rorschach test revealing our own
philosophy
of education. So the most important part of this process would be an in
depth
review of our cultural values to determine what education should be,
because a
great teacher is only great in the context of these expectations. And
what is
great in one setting might be disastrous in another. Our current system
of
measuring student achievement missed this step and we are paying a huge
price
as a consequence. We should not make the same mistake in defining
teacher
quality.
So I offer my own suggestions, explicitly
stating the values that drive
them.
First Value: The Interests of our
Students come First
Great teachers place the interests of their students first. That means
they
consider their future lives when making decisions about how and what to
teach
them. They look at each of them as an individual and try to shape that
child's
experience to help him or her succeed. I just heard a wonderful story
on This
American Life (in
the
episode titled "2010") about a child named Lewis, who was
struggling earlier this year. Typical 6th grade boy troubles -
difficulty
focusing on his work, distracting classmates, etc. Then one day he
asked for
five minutes of "Lewis time" in front of the class. A light bulb went
on for his teachers, who from that day forward, would allow him five
minutes
every morning to hold forth, sing songs, tell stories from home, and
teach the
class whatever he wanted. But only if he earned it the day before. With
this
connection, he became far more able to focus and learn. We need to be
constantly on the lookout, as teachers, for that hook that we can use
to
engage, motivate and focus our students. And we should evaluate every
choice we
make to see what is in their best long-term interests. 

Second Value: A Passion for Learning
Great teachers needs to be able to transmit to their students a passion
for
learning about the world. Whatever the subject, we need to make it come
alive
in our classroom. We are not learning because something is on a test.
We are
learning because this is fascinating! Each of us has our own special
area of
passion - it might be music, or math, or biology. If we are lucky we
get to
spend time sharing that excitement with our students. A great teacher
finds
ways to build on that and take the students deep into the subject. I
love
turning students on to evolution, and I have a whole collection of
fossils,
including a genuine dinosaur egg, that I bring to class for the
students to
hold in their hands. That spark is infectious and is a precious thing.
Great
teachers feed those sparks and keep them burning by ongoing involvement
in
their subject - as a science teacher taking part in field research or
real
laboratory work, as an English teacher reading and writing literature,
or a
history teacher conducting research into the past. And the best thing
is when
we can connect our students to this work in real ways, getting them
involved in
projects where they are interviewing elders for history class, or doing
field
research themselves.  
Third Value: Community Building
Each classroom of students is either a collection of 32 individuals, or
a
community of learners actively supporting one another. A great teacher
can
build a functioning community that learns together, and the students
who are a
part of that community will learn a great deal more as a result. They
will
learn more of their subject matter, because they will share their
knowledge and
help one another, and they will also learn the precious skill of
collaboration.
A great teacher knows how to structure teamwork so that individual
effort is
still required and recognized, but the groups nonetheless produce work
that is
greater than the sum of the parts. 
Great teachers extend their sense of community
beyond the walls of their
classrooms, to collaborate with peers across the school and district --
and
even country. They share curriculum, project ideas, and other
resources, and actively
collaborate with peers to conduct teacher research, do lesson study, or
serve
as mentors. 

What do you think? What values and characteristics come to mind
when
you think of the great teachers you encountered in your life? [If you
are a teacher, w]hat do you do
that makes YOU great?


 Views
expressed in this
blog are strictly those of the author and do not reflect the
endorsement of
Education Week or Editorial Projects in Education, which take no
editorial
positions. 



      

From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Mon Feb  1 12:05:59 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:05:59 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Triva
Message-ID: <12692-4B673427-5781@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

http://oldmorrobay.com/ccslide_1950.html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100201/70e4f36c/attachment.html 

From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Feb  1 13:24:38 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 13:24:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Triva
In-Reply-To: <12692-4B673427-5781@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <12692-4B673427-5781@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <1070C24A-8E72-44B4-81F3-D33BB5E18ED6@verizon.net>

Fun to see the old cars and the barber shop and the people going  
about their lives processing abalone and moving generators, etc.

Thanks for sharing the memories.

Katie

On Feb 1, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Ole Hoss wrote:

> http://oldmorrobay.com/ccslide_1950.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alan's Place
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From steelem at pacificu.edu  Mon Feb  1 14:03:11 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:03:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !
In-Reply-To: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
References: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D45EB772@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Hmmm....let me try a slightly different angle.  What NOT to be/do:


Don't be Ben Stein, the Economics Teacher, in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off":  "Bueller?  Bueller?"

Don't be Ben Stein, the science teacher, in "The Wonder Years":  "The earth is a dynamic place."  (Student response:  ZZZZZZZZ).

Don't have students as one's highest priority.

Don't stay current in one's scholarship.

Use lots of platitudes.  Don't be a critical thinker.

Don't be at all humble.

Don't be open to new ideas.  Cling to the past desperately.

See students as "a hindrance to the enjoyment of life."

Complain about "all the hard work."

Never learn all the names of your students.

Lecture from old notes held together with tape and rusty paper clips.

Count the years to retirement.

Never lose sleep the night before a new school year or term.


--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:04 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting topic ! !

Tell me what you think makes a great teacher ? ?

bob "teach me, Teach" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What Makes a Great Teacher?
By Anthony Cody<http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/> on February 1, 2010 7:14 PM |

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is preparing to invest $45 million on research to discover what makes a teacher great. This week, retired teacher James D. Starkey offered his list of ten qualities<http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/02/03/20starkey_ep.h29.html> in an Education Week column. I am going to offer my own suggestions here, and invite you to offer yours as well, but first I must make an observation about the hubris involved in this enterprise. Our definition of what makes a teacher great is a Rorschach test revealing our own philosophy of education. So the most important part of this process would be an in depth review of our cultural values to determine what education should be, because a great teacher is only great in the context of these expectations. And what is great in one setting might be disastrous in another. Our current system of measuring student achievement missed this step and we are paying a huge price as a consequence. We should not make the same mistake in defining teacher quality.

So I offer my own suggestions, explicitly stating the values that drive them.

First Value: The Interests of our Students come First
Great teachers place the interests of their students first. That means they consider their future lives when making decisions about how and what to teach them. They look at each of them as an individual and try to shape that child's experience to help him or her succeed. I just heard a wonderful story on This American Life (in the episode titled "2010"<http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Archive.aspx?year=2010#1>) about a child named Lewis, who was struggling earlier this year. Typical 6th grade boy troubles - difficulty focusing on his work, distracting classmates, etc. Then one day he asked for five minutes of "Lewis time" in front of the class. A light bulb went on for his teachers, who from that day forward, would allow him five minutes every morning to hold forth, sing songs, tell stories from home, and teach the class whatever he wanted. But only if he earned it the day before. With this connection, he became far more able to focus and learn. We need to be constantly on the lookout, as teachers, for that hook that we can use to engage, motivate and focus our students. And we should evaluate every choice we make to see what is in their best long-term interests.

Second Value: A Passion for Learning
Great teachers needs to be able to transmit to their students a passion for learning about the world. Whatever the subject, we need to make it come alive in our classroom. We are not learning because something is on a test. We are learning because this is fascinating! Each of us has our own special area of passion - it might be music, or math, or biology. If we are lucky we get to spend time sharing that excitement with our students. A great teacher finds ways to build on that and take the students deep into the subject. I love turning students on to evolution, and I have a whole collection of fossils, including a genuine dinosaur egg, that I bring to class for the students to hold in their hands. That spark is infectious and is a precious thing. Great teachers feed those sparks and keep them burning by ongoing involvement in their subject - as a science teacher taking part in field research or real laboratory work, as an English teacher reading and writing literature, or a history teacher conducting research into the past. And the best thing is when we can connect our students to this work in real ways, getting them involved in projects where they are interviewing elders for history class, or doing field research themselves.

Third Value: Community Building
Each classroom of students is either a collection of 32 individuals, or a community of learners actively supporting one another. A great teacher can build a functioning community that learns together, and the students who are a part of that community will learn a great deal more as a result. They will learn more of their subject matter, because they will share their knowledge and help one another, and they will also learn the precious skill of collaboration. A great teacher knows how to structure teamwork so that individual effort is still required and recognized, but the groups nonetheless produce work that is greater than the sum of the parts.

Great teachers extend their sense of community beyond the walls of their classrooms, to collaborate with peers across the school and district -- and even country. They share curriculum, project ideas, and other resources, and actively collaborate with peers to conduct teacher research, do lesson study, or serve as mentors.

What do you think? What values and characteristics come to mind when you think of the great teachers you encountered in your life? [If you are a teacher, w]hat do you do that makes YOU great?

[file:///C:\DOCUME~1\rab\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.jpg]<http://www.teacherleaders.org>
Views expressed in this blog are strictly those of the author and do not reflect the endorsement of Education Week or Editorial Projects in Education, which take no editorial positions.


From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com  Mon Feb  1 15:58:46 2010
From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:58:46 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] LCD Projector Help Needed !!!!!
In-Reply-To: <823230.28380.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B671778.70700@jurislex.com>
	<823230.28380.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7558FC781BD04BB396E6966319F663A3@Office>

We are urgently looking to borrow or rent inexpensively an LCD projector to
show a short film stored on a computer.

The film is about the plight of the members of the Baha'i Faith in Iran who
have been persecuted for over 150 years. We are supporting a devotional
program being held this coming Sunday, Feb. 7, the day 7 Baha'is who have
been imprisoned for almost 2 years are scheduled to finally go on trial. The
lack of due process in their cases has drawn international outrage and has
been the subject of legislation in both the US House and Senate (see
http://iran.bahai.us/).   

It would be very appropriate to show the film at this gathering, and any
help on locating a projector will be greatly appreciated. 

The public is invited:

When: February 7 at 1 pm
Where: Room 113C, Civic Center, 150 East Main Street, Hillsboro OR 97124

Thank you,

Leslie & Roger Neyman





From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Feb  1 18:43:44 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:43:44 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Triva
In-Reply-To: <1070C24A-8E72-44B4-81F3-D33BB5E18ED6@verizon.net>
References: <12692-4B673427-5781@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
	<1070C24A-8E72-44B4-81F3-D33BB5E18ED6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1D126650-EA19-4973-9C5E-445E5F363F33@verizon.net>

Some of the boats were labeled as "Portland" too.


On Feb 1, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Fun to see the old cars and the barber shop and the people going  
> about their lives processing abalone and moving generators, etc.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the memories.
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Feb 1, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Ole Hoss wrote:
> 
>> http://oldmorrobay.com/ccslide_1950.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alan's Place
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Tue Feb  2 09:13:15 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:13:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Punxsutawney Phil says   6 more weeks of Winter
Message-ID: <12688-4B685D2B-14129@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

According to this mornings early news said that Ole Phil did not see his
shadow, 
so I guess were are going to have to wait until March twenty first.

~A~;?(

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100202/a74d0e8a/attachment.html 

From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Wed Feb  3 08:01:07 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:01:07 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <5561-4B699DC3-835@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/garmorn.html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100203/f8993636/attachment.html 

From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Wed Feb  3 08:27:31 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:27:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
Message-ID: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the Coast
of Living raise for this year?

And speaking Obama;  
Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?

When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who ever
it was would hang up.

However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls and
all from different making survey outfits.
And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.

What ever happened to the NO CALL 
Plan we all signed up for awhile back?

 ~A~;?(




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Feb  3 08:31:43 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:31:43 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <058801caa4ee$5fd50c50$1f7f24f0$@com>

> From: Ole Hoss
> 
> What ever happened to the NO CALL
> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?

That doesn't apply non-profits or political calls.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Feb  3 10:08:20 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:08:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by phone.

But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they really want to.

My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.

donkelly, Cornelius

----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious

I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the Coast
of Living raise for this year?

And speaking Obama;  
Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?

When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who ever
it was would hang up.

However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls and
all from different making survey outfits.
And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.

What ever happened to the NO CALL 
Plan we all signed up for awhile back?

 ~A~;?(



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb  3 10:14:37 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:14:37 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>

My number is supposedly restricted, but I still have to field begging  
calls from charities and political outfits. The only defense seems to  
be, "I do not accept telephone solicitations" and a quick hangup.

On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by  
> phone.
>
> But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they  
> really want to.
>
> My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.
>
> donkelly, Cornelius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
> To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
>
> I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
> stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the  
> Coast
> of Living raise for this year?
>
> And speaking Obama;
> Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
> Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?
>
> When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
> recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who  
> ever
> it was would hang up.
>
> However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls  
> and
> all from different making survey outfits.
> And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
> the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
> speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.
>
> What ever happened to the NO CALL
> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?
>
>  ~A~;?(
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Feb  3 10:35:05 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:35:05 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>

I have found a technique that results in them being happy to hang up  
and it is fairly polite too.
This works for groups that come to the door as well.
I tell them that I will say no when it comes to the offer but if they  
need someone to practice their speech on then I will be happy to  
listen to them. Usually I add, that they may wish to actually do the  
practicing on someone who in the end might say yes, but if all they  
need is some practice I will spend the time with them and then I wish  
them good luck with their next call.
Right away they know that they have said their speech many time and  
the idea of 'practicing' on someone who will say no is not appealing.  
They really want someone who might say yes.

If someone does take you up on the practicing deal then go into what  
is known as the 'broken record' technique.  Repeat the same phrase  
each time they ask a question.
You can also smother them in kindness, acknowledging that they have   
a hard job and expressing that you hope their next caller is a yes.

Katie

On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Walt Wentz wrote:

> My number is supposedly restricted, but I still have to field begging
> calls from charities and political outfits. The only defense seems to
> be, "I do not accept telephone solicitations" and a quick hangup.
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by
>> phone.
>>
>> But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they
>> really want to.
>>
>> My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.
>>
>> donkelly, Cornelius
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
>> To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
>>
>> I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
>> stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the
>> Coast
>> of Living raise for this year?
>>
>> And speaking Obama;
>> Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
>> Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?
>>
>> When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
>> recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who
>> ever
>> it was would hang up.
>>
>> However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls
>> and
>> all from different making survey outfits.
>> And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
>> the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
>> speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.
>>
>> What ever happened to the NO CALL
>> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?
>>
>>  ~A~;?(
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb  3 10:58:45 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:58:45 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
	<A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <94F136F3-3DA4-465B-A984-524781099582@teleport.com>

Sounds more fun and effective than "Der, tell me about the bunnies  
again, George."

On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> I have found a technique that results in them being happy to hang up
> and it is fairly polite too.
> This works for groups that come to the door as well.
> I tell them that I will say no when it comes to the offer but if they
> need someone to practice their speech on then I will be happy to
> listen to them. Usually I add, that they may wish to actually do the
> practicing on someone who in the end might say yes, but if all they
> need is some practice I will spend the time with them and then I wish
> them good luck with their next call.
> Right away they know that they have said their speech many time and
> the idea of 'practicing' on someone who will say no is not appealing.
> They really want someone who might say yes.
>
> If someone does take you up on the practicing deal then go into what
> is known as the 'broken record' technique.  Repeat the same phrase
> each time they ask a question.
> You can also smother them in kindness, acknowledging that they have
> a hard job and expressing that you hope their next caller is a yes.
>
> Katie
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Walt Wentz wrote:
>
>> My number is supposedly restricted, but I still have to field begging
>> calls from charities and political outfits. The only defense seems to
>> be, "I do not accept telephone solicitations" and a quick hangup.
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by
>>> phone.
>>>
>>> But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they
>>> really want to.
>>>
>>> My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.
>>>
>>> donkelly, Cornelius
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
>>> To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
>>>
>>> I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
>>> stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the
>>> Coast
>>> of Living raise for this year?
>>>
>>> And speaking Obama;
>>> Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
>>> Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?
>>>
>>> When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
>>> recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who
>>> ever
>>> it was would hang up.
>>>
>>> However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls
>>> and
>>> all from different making survey outfits.
>>> And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of  
>>> which
>>> the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate  
>>> Obama
>>> speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.
>>>
>>> What ever happened to the NO CALL
>>> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?
>>>
>>>  ~A~;?(
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 12:14:39 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:14:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
	<A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Or, you could just tell them you're very busy and have no time or patience for unwelcome solicitations.

Eventually, if enough people do this, telemarketing and door-to-door sales will come to a screeching halt and we'll all be better off for it.

Holly




________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 10:35:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curious

I have found a technique that results in them being happy to hang up  
and it is fairly polite too..
This works for groups that come to the door as well.
I tell them that I will say no when it comes to the offer but if they  
need someone to practice their speech on then I will be happy to  
listen to them. Usually I add, that they may wish to actually do the  
practicing on someone who in the end might say yes, but if all they  
need is some practice I will spend the time with them and then I wish  
them good luck with their next call.
Right away they know that they have said their speech many time and  
the idea of 'practicing' on someone who will say no is not appealing..  
They really want someone who might say yes.

If someone does take you up on the practicing deal then go into what  
is known as the 'broken record' technique.  Repeat the same phrase  
each time they ask a question.
You can also smother them in kindness, acknowledging that they have  
a hard job and expressing that you hope their next caller is a yes.

Katie

On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Walt Wentz wrote:

> My number is supposedly restricted, but I still have to field begging
> calls from charities and political outfits. The only defense seems to
> be, "I do not accept telephone solicitations" and a quick hangup.
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by
>> phone.
>>
>> But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they
>> really want to.
>>
>> My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.
>>
>> donkelly, Cornelius
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
>> To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
>>
>> I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
>> stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the
>> Coast
>> of Living raise for this year?
>>
>> And speaking Obama;
>> Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
>> Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?
>>
>> When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
>> recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who
>> ever
>> it was would hang up.
>>
>> However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls
>> and
>> all from different making survey outfits.
>> And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
>> the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
>> speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.
>>
>> What ever happened to the NO CALL
>> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?
>>
>>  ~A~;?(
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From admin at ronhowden.com  Wed Feb  3 12:39:59 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:39:59 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
	<A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
	<753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601caa511$0e28ea70$2a7abf50$@com>

I usually say "Are you aware this number is on the Federal Do Not Call list?" and most calls go away quickly.
The others I tell them "no thanks" and hang up.

Your results may vary.
Ron
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:15 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curious

Or, you could just tell them you're very busy and have no time or patience for unwelcome solicitations.

Eventually, if enough people do this, telemarketing and door-to-door sales will come to a screeching halt and we'll all be better off for it.

Holly




________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 10:35:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curious

I have found a technique that results in them being happy to hang up  
and it is fairly polite too..
This works for groups that come to the door as well.





From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 13:07:15 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:07:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>	<A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
	<753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B69E583.8090201@gmail.com>

Remember not to be nasty, they do have your phone number.  I had friends 
back in high school who did telemarketing and would save the phone 
numbers of people who were rude or offensive to them.  They would 
randomly call them at three in the morning and hang up.  Granted this 
was before the days of caller id, but a calling from a pay phone in the 
middle of the night might be traced but not much can be done once you 
have that info.

Katie is 100% right on, just politely say no.  Any good salesman will 
realize after two quick and decisive "no" answers to move on to the next 
call.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Or, you could just tell them you're very busy and have no time or patience for unwelcome solicitations.
>
> Eventually, if enough people do this, telemarketing and door-to-door sales will come to a screeching halt and we'll all be better off for it.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 10:35:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curious
>
> I have found a technique that results in them being happy to hang up  
> and it is fairly polite too..
> This works for groups that come to the door as well.
> I tell them that I will say no when it comes to the offer but if they  
> need someone to practice their speech on then I will be happy to  
> listen to them. Usually I add, that they may wish to actually do the  
> practicing on someone who in the end might say yes, but if all they  
> need is some practice I will spend the time with them and then I wish  
> them good luck with their next call.
> Right away they know that they have said their speech many time and  
> the idea of 'practicing' on someone who will say no is not appealing..  
> They really want someone who might say yes.
>
> If someone does take you up on the practicing deal then go into what  
> is known as the 'broken record' technique.  Repeat the same phrase  
> each time they ask a question.
> You can also smother them in kindness, acknowledging that they have  
> a hard job and expressing that you hope their next caller is a yes.
>
> Katie
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Walt Wentz wrote:
>
>   
>> My number is supposedly restricted, but I still have to field begging
>> calls from charities and political outfits. The only defense seems to
>> be, "I do not accept telephone solicitations" and a quick hangup.
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Received the same messages by email, five or six times, but not by
>>> phone.
>>>
>>> But they are busy out there and can get access to you if they
>>> really want to.
>>>
>>> My phone is unlisted yet spam arrives every day.
>>>
>>> donkelly, Cornelius
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
>>> To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> Sent: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:27:31 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
>>>
>>> I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
>>> stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the
>>> Coast
>>> of Living raise for this year?
>>>
>>> And speaking Obama;
>>> Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
>>> Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?
>>>
>>> When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
>>> recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who
>>> ever
>>> it was would hang up.
>>>
>>> However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls
>>> and
>>> all from different making survey outfits.
>>> And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
>>> the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
>>> speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.
>>>
>>> What ever happened to the NO CALL
>>> Plan we all signed up for awhile back?
>>>
>>>  ~A~;?(
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>       
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Feb  3 13:11:36 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:11:36 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <000601caa511$0e28ea70$2a7abf50$@com>
References: <379948884.2482971265220500370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E4AAFA6-622C-4A87-91FE-85D73FBEE782@teleport.com>
	<A864B99C-88D3-467E-A65F-9AC6B04A181C@verizon.net>
	<753350.79390.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<000601caa511$0e28ea70$2a7abf50$@com>
Message-ID: <05e601caa515$791fbda0$6b5f38e0$@com>

Ron,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Ron Howden
> 
> I usually say "Are you aware this number is on the Federal Do Not
> Call list?" and most calls go away quickly.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Depending on whether they fit within the list of exceptions or not, being on
the Do Not Call list may not be sufficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Do_Not_Call_Registry#Known_exceptions

Additionally, calls that originate outside the United States are exempt.

As an aside, what'd really put the pinch in a lot of political calling and
bill collectors would be to put stiff rules in place regarding robocalling,
a practice I (and many others) find absolutely deplorable.

Jeff



From tosca at prodigy.net  Wed Feb  3 22:06:56 2010
From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie B. Combs)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:06:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <124367.73377.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Hoss,

I seem to remember that political calls are immune to the "no call" requirement.? That figures, doesn't it?

Miss B



----- Original Message ----
From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 8:27:31 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious

I was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250
stimulus the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the Coast
of Living raise for this year?

And speaking Obama;? 
Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
Obama's State Of The Union Message last week?

When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who ever
it was would hang up.

However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls and
all from different making survey outfits.
And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question.

What ever happened to the NO CALL 
Plan we all signed up for awhile back?

~A~;?(



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Feb  4 10:18:53 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:18:53 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
In-Reply-To: <124367.73377.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <5562-4B69A3F3-680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<124367.73377.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B6B0F8D.40800@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100204/ceac9552/attachment.html 

From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Feb  4 11:25:39 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:25:39 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about a double standard,
	or is he just a hypocrite ? ? ?
Message-ID: <4B6B1F33.5000608@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100204/89c692b6/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: news.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 1332 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100204/89c692b6/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ap_logo_106.png
Type: image/png
Size: 709 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100204/89c692b6/attachment.png 

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Feb  4 11:29:45 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:29:45 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about a double standard,
 or is he just a hypocrite ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <4B6B1F33.5000608@jurislex.com>
References: <4B6B1F33.5000608@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D479CCD8@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Well...it's good to know that Justice Thomas can talk.  Justice Sotomayor has already asked more questions in her time on the court than Thomas has for his entire career.

--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:26 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about a double standard, or is he just a hypocrite ? ? ?

It's not okay to question the Supremes about Citizens United, but it is okay to question the Supremes about Roe v Wade. What a double standard!!

bob "nuff said" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[cid:image001.gif at 01CAA58D.5A25D100]<http://news.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AtvbT_s6DL6.28Ph.XUVNhpH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaHZham9hBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bi1wcnZkbGluawRzbGsDeWFob29uZXdz>
[cid:image002.gif at 01CAA58D.5A25D100]
Thomas: Some questioning of Court 'irresponsible'
By ANTONIO GONZALEZ, Associated Press Writer Antonio Gonzalez, Associated Press Writer 12 mins ago

GAINESVILLE, Fla. - Questioning the Supreme Court and other government branches needs to stay within the range of fair criticism or "run the risk in our society of undermining institutions that we need to preserve our liberties," Justice Clarence Thomas said Thursday.

Thomas also told an audience at the University of Florida law school that some comments he hears about the court "border on being irresponsible."

He didn't speak specifically about the court's recent decision on campaign financing or mention President Barack Obama. But Thomas' comments come a week after Obama took the rare step of openly criticizing the decision during his State of the Union speech.

Thomas supported the 5-4 ruling that allows companies and unions to spend freely on ads that promote or target candidates by name.

Thomas said the court should be questioned but is bothered by some rhetoric with "the idea of assigning ulterior motives to opinions that people don't agree with, rather than saying simply that the court doesn't agree with my argument."

"There are different approaches, because we start with different assumptions. Or we look at things differently," he said.

"And I think law school should encourage you that these differences are acceptable in our legal system. And in the end, it is what strengthens and informs our legal system."

Other recent legal issues either weren't asked about or weren't addressed as Thomas took questions from four students selected by a faculty committee.

Thomas brushed off a question about campaign finance, wasn't asked specifically about adding more minorities to the court or who he expects will be the next justice to leave the court. He did, however, address campaign financing Tuesday at an event at Stetson University.

"I found it fascinating that the people who were editorializing against it were The New York Times Company and The Washington Post Company," Thomas said at Stetson, according to a report in The New York Times. "These are corporations."
Copyright (c) 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 1332 bytes
Desc: image001.gif
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100204/6a662894/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 826 bytes
Desc: image002.gif
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100204/6a662894/attachment-0001.gif 

From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Fri Feb  5 08:35:26 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 08:35:26 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] just curious
Message-ID: <28245-4B6C48CE-3919@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

 was just wondering if anyone has heard any more about the $250 stimulus
the Obama Clan said we were going to get in place of the Coast of Living
raise for this year? 

And speaking of Obama; 
Has anyone beside myself gotten telemarketing calls asking to rate
Obama's State Of The Union Message last week? 

When unknown users come up on the caller ID screen that I don't
recognize, I will let it go to the answer machine figuring that who ever
it was would hang up. 
However, last friday over the course of the day, I received 3 calls and
all from different making survey outfits. 
And to my surprise an automated prerecorded message came up, of which
the answering machine picked it up. The tape was asking to rate Obama
speech by pressing the corresponding letter key to each question. 
What ever happened to the NO CALL
Plan we all signed up for awhile back? 

??~A~;?( 




From OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net  Fri Feb  5 08:43:15 2010
From: OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net (Ole Hoss)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 08:43:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <28248-4B6C4AA3-2123@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Horay! It Is Friday! :- 

http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/grincat.html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100205/2fa496e0/attachment.html 

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Feb  5 18:30:26 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 02:30:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
In-Reply-To: <28248-4B6C4AA3-2123@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <1946246953.342081265423426044.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Nice cat Hoss. Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
Sent: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 16:43:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Horay! It Is Friday! :- 

http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/grincat.html




From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 11:24:30 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:24:30 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
Message-ID: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>

To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov

Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:

1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park. 

2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.

3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.

4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these obstacles?  

4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city residents?

Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
Marian Cakarnis
oldredwagon at verizon.net

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  6 12:04:48 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:04:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally artistic themes. 

As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, enlarged version of the stepping stone.

Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be sure!

Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that date back to this era.

Holly






________________________________
From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov

Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:

1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park. 

2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.

3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.

4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these obstacles?  

4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city residents?

Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
Marian Cakarnis
oldredwagon at verizon.net
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 12:10:06 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:10:06 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <94DAFFED57564FBD98AD2DF312EF500C@JeffVAIO>

The message below bounced - and I made an error by listing two number fours.

I double-checked my typing and can't find an error.  Does anyone know what 
the e-mail address is supposed to be?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 11:24 AM
To: <communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov>
Cc: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>
> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>
> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area 
> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some 
> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite 
> a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying 
> other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>
> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>
> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are 
> many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
> obstacles?
>
> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
> residents?
>
> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
> Marian Cakarnis
> oldredwagon at verizon.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com  Sat Feb  6 13:49:05 2010
From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (jschrag at fgnewstimes.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:49:05 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>

Holly and Marian

I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside of the grovenet subscribers. 

There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of last week's story about the all town meeting. 

http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600


It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as well. (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)


As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to readers) your comments will be posted automatically.





John Schrag
Editor & Publisher 
News-Times
Forest Grove, Oregon
503-357-3181
?
Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
?
?
?
?
?

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally artistic themes. 

As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, enlarged version of the stepping stone.

Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be sure!

Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that date back to this era.

Holly






________________________________
From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov

Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:

1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park. 

2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.

3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.

4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these obstacles?  

4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city residents?

Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
Marian Cakarnis
oldredwagon at verizon.net
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  6 16:45:21 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 16:45:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
Message-ID: <719519.10687.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'd be happy to add my post to the postings at the bottom of the News Times story about FG's Community Meeting, John. Thanks for the suggestion.

Marian, since my post responded to yours, would you like to go first with your post, and then I'll follow up with my post as per our Grovenet exchange?

Holly




________________________________
From: "jschrag at fgnewstimes.com" <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 1:49:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

Holly and Marian

I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside of the grovenet subscribers. 

There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of last week's story about the all town meeting. 

http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600


It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as well. (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)


As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to readers) your comments will be posted automatically.





John Schrag
Editor & Publisher 
News-Times
Forest Grove, Oregon
503-357-3181
 
Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
 
 
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally artistic themes. 

As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, enlarged version of the stepping stone.

Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be sure!

Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that date back to this era.

Holly






________________________________
From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov

Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:

1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park. 

2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.

3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.

4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these obstacles?  

4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city residents?

Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
Marian Cakarnis
oldredwagon at verizon.net
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 19:19:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:19:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <1B351761-F826-4516-B818-55350820DD83@verizon.net>

Forest Grove has a variety of possible identities.  Art certainly is one of them.

I would like to see a Kinetic sculpture race as one event.

And I would like to suggest that Forest Grove be the origin for alternative vehicle races, and a refueling location for alternative fuels.

David

On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  ...





From nospam03 at comcast.net  Sat Feb  6 19:31:06 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 03:31:06 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
Message-ID: <933033997-1265513473-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1883294374-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Singing is an art. How about a barber shop singing competition?
------Original Message------
From: David Morelli
Sender: grovenet-bounces
To: Forest Grove local interests list
ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
Sent: Feb 6, 2010 7:19 PM

Forest Grove has a variety of possible identities.  Art certainly is one of them.

I would like to see a Kinetic sculpture race as one event.

And I would like to suggest that Forest Grove be the origin for alternative vehicle races, and a refueling location for alternative fuels.

David

On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.  ...




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 19:40:38 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:40:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
Message-ID: <C3EB399F4FF24A5AA38088E8FDE31655@JeffVAIO>

Thanks John,

I've added my comments to the News Times story, with a few minor changes.

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:49 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> Holly and Marian
>
> I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside 
> of the grovenet subscribers.
>
> There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of last 
> week's story about the all town meeting.
>
> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600
>
>
> It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as well. 
> (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)
>
>
> As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to 
> readers) your comments will be posted automatically.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Schrag
> Editor & Publisher
> News-Times
> Forest Grove, Oregon
> 503-357-3181
>
> Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The 
> Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally 
> artistic themes.
>
> As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken 
> stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For 
> the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to 
> decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my 
> stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative 
> mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my 
> creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo 
> Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my 
> work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, 
> enlarged version of the stepping stone.
>
> Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of 
> ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking 
> lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths 
> that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art 
> that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to 
> participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be 
> sure!
>
> Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other 
> treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the 
> early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic 
> attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that 
> date back to this era.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
> Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>
> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>
> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area 
> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some 
> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite 
> a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying 
> other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>
> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>
> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are 
> many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
> obstacles?
>
> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
> residents?
>
> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
> Marian Cakarnis
> oldredwagon at verizon.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb  6 19:42:55 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 19:42:55 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>

The area behind the B street storage unit was once proposed for the  
Community Garden, but it turns out the soil is contaminated with  
repeated diesel spills from a facility that was once located there.  
The north end of the property is very wet and marshy in the rainy  
months. The southern end is higher and drier, and has been planted  
with native species in an attempt at restoration. If additional  
parking could be provided, and the old Power & Light building either  
removed or spruced up considerably, it might very well make a  
parklike entrance for that end of town (provided people only looked  
to their left as they drove in, or to their right as they drove out).
The abandoned triangle of land at the eastern entrance of town, once  
proposed as the site for a Kresge's Market, might make a more  
convenient and visible park entry to town.
On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:

> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>
> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of  
> additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>
> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering  
> place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self  
> Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be  
> close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area  
> cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a  
> nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our  
> local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree  
> lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.   
> It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It  
> also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area  
> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the  
> arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural  
> events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a  
> huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.   
> All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start  
> capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be  
> 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful,  
> practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?   
> Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some  
> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would  
> be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for  
> displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>
> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I  
> also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/ 
> goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.
>
> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but  
> there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be  
> a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome  
> some of these obstacles?
>
> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community  
> communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this  
> provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail  
> address be provided to all city residents?
>
> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
> Marian Cakarnis
> oldredwagon at verizon.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 19:45:33 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:45:33 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <719519.10687.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
	<719519.10687.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <73032FA14D6744778DE46D2DF61FF846@JeffVAIO>

Thanks Holly!  I've added my comments to the News Times story.

I made a few changes because of one of the commenters wanting Forest Grove 
to be known for it's wine.  Although we have some great wines, there are too 
many "wine-towns" around and I don't think tying us to wine helps with any 
kind of identity crisis we might be having.  How many wine towns can you 
think of off the top of your head?



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:45 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> I'd be happy to add my post to the postings at the bottom of the News 
> Times story about FG's Community Meeting, John. Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Marian, since my post responded to yours, would you like to go first with 
> your post, and then I'll follow up with my post as per our Grovenet 
> exchange?
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "jschrag at fgnewstimes.com" <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 1:49:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> Holly and Marian
>
> I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside 
> of the grovenet subscribers.
>
> There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of last 
> week's story about the all town meeting.
>
> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600
>
>
> It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as well. 
> (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)
>
>
> As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to 
> readers) your comments will be posted automatically.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Schrag
> Editor & Publisher
> News-Times
> Forest Grove, Oregon
> 503-357-3181
>
> Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The 
> Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally 
> artistic themes.
>
> As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken 
> stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For 
> the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to 
> decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my 
> stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative 
> mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my 
> creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo 
> Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my 
> work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, 
> enlarged version of the stepping stone.
>
> Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of 
> ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking 
> lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths 
> that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art 
> that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to 
> participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be 
> sure!
>
> Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other 
> treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the 
> early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic 
> attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that 
> date back to this era.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
> Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>
> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>
> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area 
> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some 
> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite 
> a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying 
> other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>
> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>
> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are 
> many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
> obstacles?
>
> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
> residents?
>
> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
> Marian Cakarnis
> oldredwagon at verizon.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb  6 19:43:41 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 19:43:41 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <933033997-1265513473-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1883294374-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <933033997-1265513473-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1883294374-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <6171A999-8C8B-4B3F-BDEF-E6CA8C640640@teleport.com>

By George, he's got it!

On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Steve wrote:

> Singing is an art. How about a barber shop singing competition?
> ------Original Message------
> From: David Morelli
> Sender: grovenet-bounces
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
> Sent: Feb 6, 2010 7:19 PM
>
> Forest Grove has a variety of possible identities.  Art certainly  
> is one of them.
>
> I would like to see a Kinetic sculpture race as one event.
>
> And I would like to suggest that Forest Grove be the origin for  
> alternative vehicle races, and a refueling location for alternative  
> fuels.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
>> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to  
>> the arts.  ...
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 19:51:56 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:51:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
Message-ID: <61A8D7E941964B18A6382276267D7259@JeffVAIO>

I hit the 'send' key before finishing my thought.....

It seems Forest Grove would have a better chance of having a clear identity 
if we were known for the arts.  The only other Metro area town I can think 
of, which might be known for arts, is Lake Oz.  I suppose Tualatin and West 
Linn also have their shows, but clearly, it isn't like they are known as Art 
City.  We already have a good start and I think it could be nurtured more. 
We also have quite a few artists and showcasing their talents, providing 
more art classes and spreading the word, could really help.  And I tend to 
like practical art, like your beautiful stepping stones!

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:45 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> Thanks Holly!  I've added my comments to the News Times story.
>
> I made a few changes because of one of the commenters wanting Forest Grove 
> to be known for it's wine.  Although we have some great wines, there are 
> too many "wine-towns" around and I don't think tying us to wine helps with 
> any kind of identity crisis we might be having.  How many wine towns can 
> you think of off the top of your head?
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:45 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
>> I'd be happy to add my post to the postings at the bottom of the News 
>> Times story about FG's Community Meeting, John. Thanks for the 
>> suggestion.
>>
>> Marian, since my post responded to yours, would you like to go first with 
>> your post, and then I'll follow up with my post as per our Grovenet 
>> exchange?
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "jschrag at fgnewstimes.com" <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 1:49:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> Holly and Marian
>>
>> I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside 
>> of the grovenet subscribers.
>>
>> There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of 
>> last week's story about the all town meeting.
>>
>> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600
>>
>>
>> It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as 
>> well. (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)
>>
>>
>> As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to 
>> readers) your comments will be posted automatically.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Schrag
>> Editor & Publisher
>> News-Times
>> Forest Grove, Oregon
>> 503-357-3181
>>
>> Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
>> Behalf Of Holly T.
>> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The 
>> Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally 
>> artistic themes.
>>
>> As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, 
>> broken stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found 
>> treasures. For the most part, I've created stepping stones but have 
>> recently begun to decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own 
>> concrete, reinforce my stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae 
>> (i.e., the decorative mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a 
>> look at a few of my creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just 
>> click the Photo Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a 
>> few samples of my work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery 
>> to get a detailed, enlarged version of the stepping stone.
>>
>> Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of 
>> ideas about how people can dig up sections of their 
>> water-resource-sucking lawns and replace them with beautiful and 
>> maintenance-free garden paths that are barkdusted or pea graveled and 
>> then decorated with my garden art that has been aesthetically placed 
>> within those paths. So, I'd love to participate in art events here in The 
>> Grove that focus on garden art to be sure!
>>
>> Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other 
>> treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the 
>> early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic 
>> attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that 
>> date back to this era.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
>> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>> Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>>
>> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
>> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>>
>> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
>> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
>> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
>> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
>> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
>> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
>> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
>> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
>> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an 
>> area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>>
>> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
>> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
>> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
>> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
>> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
>> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
>> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
>> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get 
>> some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be 
>> quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for 
>> displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>>
>> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
>> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
>> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>>
>> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there 
>> are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
>> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
>> obstacles?
>>
>> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
>> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
>> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
>> residents?
>>
>> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
>> Marian Cakarnis
>> oldredwagon at verizon.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sat Feb  6 20:30:49 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:30:49 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>

What I particularly like about the area behind the B street storage unit are 
the challenges and how we could turn some of them into an asset.

The north end of the property which you say is wet and marshy could be the 
place for a semi paved amphitheatre.

We should see what we can do to improve the view at that end of the city. 
Maybe higher fences which were made beautiful in some way - perhaps some art 
could make them an asset.  How about a trellis at the top of the fence and 
some nice climbing plants to buffer sound and provide greenery.  The old 
building could be refurbished for a variety of uses.

The biggest stumbling block I see is funding.  But this is one of those 
obstacles where the community should get together and brainstorm some 
possible solutions.

The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it would be nice to 
see it cleaned up.  I guess I'd prefer to see Gales Creek area developed 
into a park because there is something wonderful about having the creek and 
natural areas made into a place we can enjoy.  I think it's a shame that we 
have a nice creek running through town and there is nowhere we can access 
it.  No path along it to watch wildlife etc.

In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and traffic on all 
sides and is lacking a natural water feature.  Birds and wildlife tend to 
congregate around water and I think people should spend more of their 
leisure time in natural environments.

Marian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:42 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Cc: <communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> The area behind the B street storage unit was once proposed for the
> Community Garden, but it turns out the soil is contaminated with
> repeated diesel spills from a facility that was once located there.
> The north end of the property is very wet and marshy in the rainy
> months. The southern end is higher and drier, and has been planted
> with native species in an attempt at restoration. If additional
> parking could be provided, and the old Power & Light building either
> removed or spruced up considerably, it might very well make a
> parklike entrance for that end of town (provided people only looked
> to their left as they drove in, or to their right as they drove out).
> The abandoned triangle of land at the eastern entrance of town, once
> proposed as the site for a Kresge's Market, might make a more
> convenient and visible park entry to town.
> On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
>
>> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>>
>> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of
>> additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>>
>> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering
>> place.  Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self
>> Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be
>> close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area
>> cleaned up.  Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a
>> nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our
>> local trash heap.  It would be a place for summer concerts, tree
>> lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.
>> It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.  It
>> also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area
>> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>>
>> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the
>> arts.  We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural
>> events occurring at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a
>> huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.
>> All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start
>> capitalizing on it.  We could also tie it in with our desire to be
>> 'green'.  We need to create an art event to develop more useful,
>> practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art Competition?
>> Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some
>> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would
>> be quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for
>> displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>>
>> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I
>> also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/
>> goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.
>>
>> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but
>> there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be
>> a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome
>> some of these obstacles?
>>
>> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community
>> communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this
>> provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail
>> address be provided to all city residents?
>>
>> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
>> Marian Cakarnis
>> oldredwagon at verizon.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  6 21:13:43 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:13:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <C3EB399F4FF24A5AA38088E8FDE31655@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<212914.19683.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<B6FAD9BDBBF5244BBDD2924075EECBCAB5A04FEB@PMG-EXCHANGE.pmg.pamplincom.com>
	<C3EB399F4FF24A5AA38088E8FDE31655@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <417025.27343.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

As did I, John. Thanks for the opportunity to share my artwork and for thanks to Marian for her great ideas.

Holly




________________________________
From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 7:40:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

Thanks John,

I've added my comments to the News Times story, with a few minor changes.

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:49 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> Holly and Marian
>
> I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside 
> of the grovenet subscribers.
>
> There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of last 
> week's story about the all town meeting.
>
> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600
>
>
> It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as well. 
> (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)
>
>
> As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to 
> readers) your comments will be posted automatically.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Schrag
> Editor & Publisher
> News-Times
> Forest Grove, Oregon
> 503-357-3181
>
> Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The 
> Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally 
> artistic themes.
>
> As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, broken 
> stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found treasures. For 
> the most part, I've created stepping stones but have recently begun to 
> decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own concrete, reinforce my 
> stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae (i.e., the decorative 
> mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a look at a few of my 
> creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just click the Photo 
> Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a few samples of my 
> work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery to get a detailed, 
> enlarged version of the stepping stone.
>
> Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of 
> ideas about how people can dig up sections of their water-resource-sucking 
> lawns and replace them with beautiful and maintenance-free garden paths 
> that are barkdusted or pea graveled and then decorated with my garden art 
> that has been aesthetically placed within those paths. So, I'd love to 
> participate in art events here in The Grove that focus on garden art to be 
> sure!
>
> Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other 
> treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the 
> early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic 
> attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that 
> date back to this era.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
> Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>
> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>
> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area 
> across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>
> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some 
> artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite 
> a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for displaying 
> other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>
> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>
> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are 
> many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
> obstacles?
>
> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
> residents?
>
> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
> Marian Cakarnis
> oldredwagon at verizon.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  6 21:31:04 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <61A8D7E941964B18A6382276267D7259@JeffVAIO>
References: <61A8D7E941964B18A6382276267D7259@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <671768.4436.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Thanks so much, Marian!  I also like practical art that you can use, that's made from recycled materials, and that isn't just offered for the sake of aesthetics. Not that artwork that's been made just for the looking isn't wonderful and important. I just think that artwork that has practical applications and that is also made from recycled materials, wherever possible, can often be even more admirable. It's like artwork with a cause.

Holly




________________________________
From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
To: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 7:51:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

I hit the 'send' key before finishing my thought.....

It seems Forest Grove would have a better chance of having a clear identity 
if we were known for the arts.  The only other Metro area town I can think 
of, which might be known for arts, is Lake Oz.  I suppose Tualatin and West 
Linn also have their shows, but clearly, it isn't like they are known as Art 
City.  We already have a good start and I think it could be nurtured more. 
We also have quite a few artists and showcasing their talents, providing 
more art classes and spreading the word, could really help.  And I tend to 
like practical art, like your beautiful stepping stones!

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:45 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> Thanks Holly!  I've added my comments to the News Times story.
>
> I made a few changes because of one of the commenters wanting Forest Grove 
> to be known for it's wine.  Although we have some great wines, there are 
> too many "wine-towns" around and I don't think tying us to wine helps with 
> any kind of identity crisis we might be having.  How many wine towns can 
> you think of off the top of your head?
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Holly T." <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:45 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>
>> I'd be happy to add my post to the postings at the bottom of the News 
>> Times story about FG's Community Meeting, John. Thanks for the 
>> suggestion.
>>
>> Marian, since my post responded to yours, would you like to go first with 
>> your post, and then I'll follow up with my post as per our Grovenet 
>> exchange?
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "jschrag at fgnewstimes.com" <jschrag at fgnewstimes.com>
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 1:49:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> Holly and Marian
>>
>> I like this conversation and think it would be great to share it outside 
>> of the grovenet subscribers.
>>
>> There's already a couple comments posted on our site at the bottom of 
>> last week's story about the all town meeting.
>>
>> http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126531092138927600
>>
>>
>> It would be great if you could copy and paste your comments there as 
>> well. (the comment boxes are at the end of the story, on page 2)
>>
>>
>> As long as you provide a valid email address (which isn't shown to 
>> readers) your comments will be posted automatically.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Schrag
>> Editor & Publisher
>> News-Times
>> Forest Grove, Oregon
>> 503-357-3181
>>
>> Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On 
>> Behalf Of Holly T.
>> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:05 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> Great ideas, Marian! I particularly love your Idea #2 about tying The 
>> Grove's identity more to the arts and striving for green and functionally 
>> artistic themes.
>>
>> As one of my hobbies, I create mosaic garden art from broken china, 
>> broken stained glass, broken tiles, glass beads, and other found 
>> treasures. For the most part, I've created stepping stones but have 
>> recently begun to decorate birdbaths with mosaics. I hand cast my own 
>> concrete, reinforce my stepping stones with rebar, and set the tesserae 
>> (i.e., the decorative mosaic "stuff") on top. If you'd like to take a 
>> look at a few of my creations, check out www.gardenpathmosaics.com. Just 
>> click the Photo Gallery link on the left side of the Home page to see a 
>> few samples of my work. You can click each thumbnail photo in the gallery 
>> to get a detailed, enlarged version of the stepping stone.
>>
>> Besides creating mosaic stepping stones and birdbaths, I have lots of 
>> ideas about how people can dig up sections of their 
>> water-resource-sucking lawns and replace them with beautiful and 
>> maintenance-free garden paths that are barkdusted or pea graveled and 
>> then decorated with my garden art that has been aesthetically placed 
>> within those paths. So, I'd love to participate in art events here in The 
>> Grove that focus on garden art to be sure!
>>
>> Pique Assiette, an artform whereby broken china and glass and other 
>> treasures are used to create mosaic artwork, was popularized during the 
>> early 1800s. I believe this artform ties nicely in with the historic 
>> attributes of our special town where we have an abundance of homes that 
>> date back to this era.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
>> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>> Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:24:30 AM
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
>>
>> To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov
>>
>> Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional 
>> thoughts I'd like to pass on:
>>
>> 1)  We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place. 
>> Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be 
>> a wonderful place for a park plaza?  It would be close to the center of 
>> town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.  Having the 
>> natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be 
>> showcased instead of being our local trash heap.  It would be a place for 
>> summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of 
>> other events.  It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer 
>> day.  It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an 
>> area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park.
>>
>> 2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts. 
>> We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring 
>> at Pacific.  The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is 
>> becoming more well known throughout the area.  All we need to do, is 
>> nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.  We could also tie 
>> it in with our desire to be 'green'.  We need to create an art event to 
>> develop more useful, practical art.  How about a Clothesline Art 
>> Competition?  Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get 
>> some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be 
>> quite a draw from the metro area.  We could use clotheslines for 
>> displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.
>>
>> 3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also 
>> think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and 
>> what progress we are making against those objectives.
>>
>> 4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there 
>> are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.  Will there be a community 
>> brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these 
>> obstacles?
>>
>> 4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is 
>> too long and is too easy to mistype.  Is this provided as a link from the 
>> city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city 
>> residents?
>>
>> Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
>> Marian Cakarnis
>> oldredwagon at verizon.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From theresacus at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 06:23:59 2010
From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 06:23:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1265486407.8070.grovenet@rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <389439.21223.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I like your idea about cleaning up the area near Waste management but I do see some issues.? One it floods at times and two waste management does have some issues with smell late in the season.? I like the idea of a central location and see some other eye sores around town that might be improved upon.? I do know that the senior center has a desire to expand on its usefulness as far as a "community" center.? 
?
As far as the arts...? you are right that we need to focus on day-cation events for others interested in our community.? I'm trying currently to connect a friend of mine who has financial backing for a historical arts and crafts school with the both the city and possible sites.? He currently builds replica stage coaches and is heading in the direction of replica airplanes.?
?
Theresa Carter
--- On Sat, 2/6/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com> wrote:


From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:00 PM


Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
??? grovenet at rdrop.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."


Today's Topics:

???1. Re: A Hosstyle Greeting For You (donkelly)
???2. Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting (Marian Cakarnis)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 02:30:26 +0000 (UTC)
From: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID:
??? <1946246953.342081265423426044.JavaMail.root at sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
??? 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Nice cat Hoss. Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Hoss <OleHossTreeFarm at webtv.net>
To: GroveNet at rdrop.com
Sent: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 16:43:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Horay! It Is Friday! :- 

http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/grincat.html





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:24:30 -0800
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
To: <communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov>
Cc: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84 at JeffVAIO>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1"

To: communitycommunicationbox at forestgrove-or.gov

Last week I attended the Community meeting and had a couple of additional thoughts I'd like to pass on:

1)? We discussed the need for a 'Center', or central gathering place.? Wouldn't the area along Gales Creek, near the B St. Self Storage units be a wonderful place for a park plaza?? It would be close to the center of town and it would be great to have this area cleaned up.? Having the natural creek flowing through makes it a nice environment which should be showcased instead of being our local trash heap.? It would be a place for summer concerts, tree lighting ceremonies, movies in the park or lots of other events.? It would even be nice to dip our toes in, on a hot summer day.? It also says something about who we are, if we can transform an area across from the transfer station into a beautiful park. 

2) It would be nice if Forest Grove's identity would be tied to the arts.? We have a wonderful theatre and there are many cultural events occurring at Pacific.? The Sidewalk Chalk Art festival is a huge success and is becoming more well known throughout the area.? All we need to do, is nurture more of the same and start capitalizing on it.? We could also tie it in with our desire to be 'green'.? We need to create an art event to develop more useful, practical art.? How about a Clothesline Art Competition?? Clotheslines are usually disdained, but if we could get some artists to design FUNCTIONAL and beautiful clotheslines, it would be quite a draw from the metro area.? We could use clotheslines for displaying other art - paper, textiles, etc.

3) It was nice to see all the accomplishments in the packet, but I also think it would be helpful to understand what our objectives/goals are and what progress we are making against those objectives.

4) There were a lot of great ideas mentioned at the meeting, but there are many roadblocks to achieving some of them.? Will there be a community brainstorming session to come up with ideas to overcome some of these obstacles?? 

4) The e-mail address set up to collect these community communications is too long and is too easy to mistype.? Is this provided as a link from the city website or can a shorter e-mail address be provided to all city residents?

Thanks for reading and considering my thoughts,
Marian Cakarnis
oldredwagon at verizon.net


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
***************************************



      

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Feb  7 12:37:58 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:37:58 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <389439.21223.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <389439.21223.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1803FFBC-21A2-44F0-A691-B7EF0C2B7317@verizon.net>

There are 52 weeks in the year, and a vibrant city that fills each of them with a variation of attractions, could have a destination identity.   

Forest Grove is also a city of churches, something like 20-30 of them.  If every one had a major public event, that would be a significant quantity.  Beyond that, we know that Concours is a draw for one weekend, Chalk Art is another. 

The historical arts of surreys, buckboards, wagons, stage coaches, harnesses, and animal powered travel would certainly fit with an identity of "the alternative haven".  The historical aero craft would do well with both lighter than air and biplanes operating from our flat lands.  Whether it should serve as a lead-up or a follow-on to Concours would be another question.

If we had the animal powered arts available, a bridle trail could be appropriate.

At one point I was suggesting "Canoe Forest Grove" with the image of a parasol holding Gibson girl in a rowboat with a Panama hat man doing the oars.  We have creeks both North and South of the city.  The vicinity of the 'B' Street bridge would be a put/pull out site, with the wetlands being another end of the water trail.  That might blend well with both a resurgence of the "Ballad Town" and the barbershop quartet and Gleemen and Gals activities.  There may not be sufficient demand, but having flat bottom paddle wheel boat races in the flood plain during the winter could be very interesting.  Or maybe an invitational "Limited hydro plane" races in early Fall before the winter runoff brings too much debris. 

The time may have passed, but wouldn't the park to the West of town be sufficiently steep for a "soap box derby" track?  

On Feb 7, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Theresa Carter wrote:

> ... 
> As far as the arts...  you are right that we need to focus on day-cation events for others interested in our community.  I'm trying currently to connect a friend of mine who has financial backing for a historical arts and crafts school with the both the city and possible sites.  He currently builds replica stage coaches and is heading in the direction of replica airplanes. 
>  
> Theresa Carter



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  7 13:16:21 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:16:21 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <1803FFBC-21A2-44F0-A691-B7EF0C2B7317@verizon.net>
References: <389439.21223.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><1803FFBC-21A2-44F0-A691-B7EF0C2B7317@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1698355419-1265577389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-766217276-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

How about a Gay 90s parade each year?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:37:58 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6

There are 52 weeks in the year, and a vibrant city that fills each of them with a variation of attractions, could have a destination identity.   

Forest Grove is also a city of churches, something like 20-30 of them.  If every one had a major public event, that would be a significant quantity.  Beyond that, we know that Concours is a draw for one weekend, Chalk Art is another. 

The historical arts of surreys, buckboards, wagons, stage coaches, harnesses, and animal powered travel would certainly fit with an identity of "the alternative haven".  The historical aero craft would do well with both lighter than air and biplanes operating from our flat lands.  Whether it should serve as a lead-up or a follow-on to Concours would be another question.

If we had the animal powered arts available, a bridle trail could be appropriate.

At one point I was suggesting "Canoe Forest Grove" with the image of a parasol holding Gibson girl in a rowboat with a Panama hat man doing the oars.  We have creeks both North and South of the city.  The vicinity of the 'B' Street bridge would be a put/pull out site, with the wetlands being another end of the water trail.  That might blend well with both a resurgence of the "Ballad Town" and the barbershop quartet and Gleemen and Gals activities.  There may not be sufficient demand, but having flat bottom paddle wheel boat races in the flood plain during the winter could be very interesting.  Or maybe an invitational "Limited hydro plane" races in early Fall before the winter runoff brings too much debris. 

The time may have passed, but wouldn't the park to the West of town be sufficiently steep for a "soap box derby" track?  

On Feb 7, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Theresa Carter wrote:

> ... 
> As far as the arts...  you are right that we need to focus on day-cation events for others interested in our community.  I'm trying currently to connect a friend of mine who has financial backing for a historical arts and crafts school with the both the city and possible sites.  He currently builds replica stage coaches and is heading in the direction of replica airplanes. 
>  
> Theresa Carter


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Feb  7 19:17:46 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:17:46 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <61A8D7E941964B18A6382276267D7259@JeffVAIO>
References: <61A8D7E941964B18A6382276267D7259@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <EA4473DD-FB7A-4AFC-B50F-F32F16156CE5@verizon.net>


On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:

> I hit the 'send' key before finishing my thought.....
> 
> It seems Forest Grove would have a better chance of having a clear identity if we were known for the arts.  The only other Metro area town I can think of, which might be known for arts, is Lake Oz.  I suppose Tualatin and West Linn also have their shows, but clearly, it isn't like they are known as Art City.  We already have a good start and I think it could be nurtured more. 

I understand that Hillsboro has multiple paid staff working to expand that city's Art standing.  Perhaps, someone with more information could identify their intentions.  Competing with Hillsboro for the title of "Art Center" could be one sided, given the depth of their pockets.

David




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Feb  7 18:44:25 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:44:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <1698355419-1265577389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-766217276-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <389439.21223.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><1803FFBC-21A2-44F0-A691-B7EF0C2B7317@verizon.net>
	<1698355419-1265577389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-766217276-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8F133488-302D-41C8-8FA8-415374401632@verizon.net>

I would hope that Forest Grove could support multiple parades during the year.  

The Gay 90's events were started to fill in the Winter doldrum's, and they did.  Until a lack of volunteer leaders allowed it to wind down.  

The city would benefit from a pre-planned parade route with a start location and disband location, so that a "standard" parade could be up and running easily.

David

On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Steve wrote:

> How about a Gay 90s parade each year?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:37:58 
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 6
> 
> There are 52 weeks in the year, and a vibrant city that fills each of them with a variation of attractions, could have a destination identity.   
> 
> Forest Grove is also a city of churches, something like 20-30 of them.  If every one had a major public event, that would be a significant quantity.  Beyond that, we know that Concours is a draw for one weekend, Chalk Art is another. 
> 
> The historical arts of surreys, buckboards, wagons, stage coaches, harnesses, and animal powered travel would certainly fit with an identity of "the alternative haven".  The historical aero craft would do well with both lighter than air and biplanes operating from our flat lands.  Whether it should serve as a lead-up or a follow-on to Concours would be another question.
> 
> If we had the animal powered arts available, a bridle trail could be appropriate.
> 
> At one point I was suggesting "Canoe Forest Grove" with the image of a parasol holding Gibson girl in a rowboat with a Panama hat man doing the oars.  We have creeks both North and South of the city.  The vicinity of the 'B' Street bridge would be a put/pull out site, with the wetlands being another end of the water trail.  That might blend well with both a resurgence of the "Ballad Town" and the barbershop quartet and Gleemen and Gals activities.  There may not be sufficient demand, but having flat bottom paddle wheel boat races in the flood plain during the winter could be very interesting.  Or maybe an invitational "Limited hydro plane" races in early Fall before the winter runoff brings too much debris. 
> 
> The time may have passed, but wouldn't the park to the West of town be sufficiently steep for a "soap box derby" track?  
> 
> On Feb 7, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Theresa Carter wrote:
> 
>> ... 
>> As far as the arts...  you are right that we need to focus on day-cation events for others interested in our community.  I'm trying currently to connect a friend of mine who has financial backing for a historical arts and crafts school with the both the city and possible sites.  He currently builds replica stage coaches and is heading in the direction of replica airplanes. 
>> 
>> Theresa Carter
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Feb  7 21:42:06 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:42:06 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
	<E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>

Usually, I can figure this out on my own.  Not this time.  Which parcel of land do you reference?  I am thinking of the boundary with Cornelius where the triangle has the "Welcome to Forest Grove", so that isn't it.  Can you describe it?

David

On Feb 6, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:

> ...The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it would be nice to see it cleaned up.

>  ... In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and traffic on all sides and is lacking a natural water feature. ...
> 
> Maria



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Feb  7 22:11:59 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:11:59 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
	<E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
	<267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>

This is the one just west of the intersection of Hwy. 47 to McMinnville.
They condemned and tore down a number of houses there some years ago,  
in confident anticipation of an upscale market-- which. needless to  
say...
WW
On Feb 7, 2010, at 9:42 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> Usually, I can figure this out on my own.  Not this time.  Which  
> parcel of land do you reference?  I am thinking of the boundary  
> with Cornelius where the triangle has the "Welcome to Forest  
> Grove", so that isn't it.  Can you describe it?
>
> David
>
> On Feb 6, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
>
>> ...The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it  
>> would be nice to see it cleaned up.
>
>>  ... In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and  
>> traffic on all sides and is lacking a natural water feature. ...
>>
>> Maria
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sun Feb  7 22:50:22 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:50:22 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
	<E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
	<267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>
	<14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <D5A3D884CA524FC1B956E8140A5710F8@JeffVAIO>

I was thinking of something different.  Do you mean the parcel across from 
McMenamin's?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:11 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting

> This is the one just west of the intersection of Hwy. 47 to McMinnville.
> They condemned and tore down a number of houses there some years ago,
> in confident anticipation of an upscale market-- which. needless to
> say...
> WW
> On Feb 7, 2010, at 9:42 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> Usually, I can figure this out on my own.  Not this time.  Which
>> parcel of land do you reference?  I am thinking of the boundary
>> with Cornelius where the triangle has the "Welcome to Forest
>> Grove", so that isn't it.  Can you describe it?
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
>>
>>> ...The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it
>>> would be nice to see it cleaned up.
>>
>>>  ... In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and
>>> traffic on all sides and is lacking a natural water feature. ...
>>>
>>> Maria
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From hannah at teleport.com  Mon Feb  8 07:32:33 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:32:33 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EA4473DD-FB7A-4AFC-B50F-F32F16156CE5@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C7958AB1.131E6%hannah@teleport.com>

> Competing with Hillsboro for the title of "Art Center"
> could be one sided, given the depth of their pockets.
> David
 
Unless we were an extension--so that it was one huge space...that might be
worth considering.

Thanks for the clarification on the 'triangle' ... I was thinking the wrong
space too. 

Kristy




From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  8 16:25:50 2010
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:25:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] "The Laramie Project" at Pacific U THIS Thurs-Sat.
In-Reply-To: <C7958AB1.131E6%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <792414.43922.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

THE LARAMIE PROJECT? 

?Everyone carries a piece of the truth?

The Center for Gender Equity presents The Laramie Project.? 
?
This powerful play is about the reaction to the 1998 murder of Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming, widely considered to be a hate crime motivated by homophobia.? 
?
Mois?s Kaufman and members of New York's Tectonic Theater Project went to Laramie after the murder of Matthew Shepard and wrote a play based on more than 200 interviews they conducted there. It follows, and in some cases re-enacts, the chronology of Shepard's visit to a local bar, his kidnapping and beating, the discovery of Matthew tied to a fence, the vigil at the hospital, his death and funeral, and the trial of his killers.? 
?
The Laramie Project mixes real news reports with actors portraying friends, family, police, killers, and other Laramie residents in their own words.? The Laramie Project is produced by the Center for Gender Equity and student directed by Juno Apalla.

The Laramie Project is at heart about all American communities and provides a wonderful opportunity for open dialogue about gender equity and respect for difference. 

When:? Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, February 11, 12, 13 at 7:00 pm

Where:? Pacific University, Forest Grove, Oregon
? ? ? ? ? ???Tom Miles Theatre (directions go to www.pacificu.edu)? 

Cost:??? $10.00 ($5.00 with student ID cards) ? Pay at the door 

Special thanks to The Elise Elliott Foundation, ASSS, and the Pacific Department of Theatre and Dance

Dr. Martha Rampton
Professor of History
Director-Center for Gender Equity
Pacific University
2043 College Way
Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116
Phone: 503 352 2772
Fax:? ???503 352 3195
CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/




      

From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Feb  8 17:25:34 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:25:34 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] You may get a kick out of this . . . .
Message-ID: <4B70B98E.2080507@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100208/00d304d9/attachment.html 

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Feb  8 17:47:34 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 01:47:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] You may get a kick out of this . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B70B98E.2080507@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <100610769.1267631265680054009.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

That was interesting Bob. Everyone who participates should have a different result, but just in case the test is flawed, here is my result.

Let me know what you think.

donkelly

Welcome donThe Dewey Color System? is now the world's most accurate career testing instrument. 
This report based on your personality traits indicates your two most enjoyable day-day-day occupation skills. It?s a summary of the full report, the Color Leadership Evaluation 5.0. 

?Studies indicate workplace enjoyment is the key to success. So as you read, consider only ?Was I mostly having fun at work?? Disregard your present and past employer?s environment. 



Best Occupational Category
You're a CREATOR
Keywords

Nonconforming, Impulsive, Expressive, Romantic, Intuitive, Sensitive, and Emotional

These original types place a high value on aesthetic qualities and have a great need for self-expression. They enjoy working independently, being creative, using their imagination, and constantly learning something new. Fields of interest are art, drama, music, and writing or places where they can express, assemble, or implement creative ideas. 

CREATOR OCCUPATIONS
Suggested careers are Advertising Executive, Architect, Web Designer, Creative Director, Public Relations, Fine or Commercial Artist, Interior Decorator, Lawyer, Librarian, Musician, Reporter, Art Teacher, Broadcaster, Technical Writer, English Teacher, Architect, Photographer, Medical Illustrator, Corporate Trainer, Author, Editor, Landscape Architect, Exhibit Builder, and Package Designer.

CREATOR WORKPLACES
Consider workplaces where you can create and improve beauty and aesthetic qualities. Unstructured, flexible organizations that allow self-expression work best with your free-spirited nature.

Suggested Creator workplaces are advertising, public relations, and interior decorating firms; artistic studios, theaters and concert halls; institutions that teach crafts, universities, music, and dance schools. Other workplaces to consider are art institutes, museums, libraries, and galleries.





2nd Best Occupational Category
You're a RESEARCHER 
Keywords:

Independent, Self-Motivated, Reserved, Introspective, Analytical, and Curious

These investigative types gather information, analyze and interpret data, and inquire to uncover new facts. They have a strong scientific orientation, enjoy academic or research environments and prefer self-reliant jobs. Dislikes are group projects, selling, and repetitive activities. 

 
?Section I: You and Your Team
This personality overview section highlights your natural workplace talents?the tasks you pursue with passion. You'll learn how your natural strengths complement those of your coworkers and how, joining forces, you can resolve on-the-job dilemmas.
?Section II: Your Key To Success 
Here you discover your capacity for dispelling disruption and maximizing profitability. Use this proven, beyond-self-perception advice to create a more positive career path free of detours.
?Section III: Managing Strengths and Weaknesses 
Your evaluation's highest and lowest scores result in this section's recommendations for staying on-track in your career and reversing wrong turns. In focusing on your talents and missteps, you'll re-stoke your energy and enthusiasm for managing costly mistakes.
?Section IV: Leadership Power Moves 
This final section identifies your "street sense," those power moves that turn obstacles into insignificant details. Here suggestions based on your color-ranked evaluations will guide you towards making the most of an interview or harnessing your fast-paced workday.


The Full Report: Includes...

?An in depth, stay-on-track guide to your career options.
?How to maximize on-the-job and interview strengths.
?Street sense, obstacle-solving, leadership power moves.




Share the Color Career Counselor 
with your friends!



If you have any questions or need assistance with your order, 
please email us at: info at deweycolorsystem.com

 

 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Feb  8 17:53:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 01:53:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] "The Laramie Project" at Pacific U THIS Thurs-Sat.
In-Reply-To: <792414.43922.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <766129111.1271631265680411385.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Glad someone had the idea to do this.

The word, 'homophobic' fits into two main categories, but then branches to several sub categories.

It is quite difficult to discuss a word with so many definitions, ranging from pathological homophobic down to self loathing which too often leads to suicide.

donkelly

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Alana Graham <isis23ra at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:25:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] "The Laramie Project" at Pacific U THIS Thurs-Sat.

THE LARAMIE PROJECT? 

?Everyone carries a piece of the truth?

The Center for Gender Equity presents The Laramie Project.? 
?
This powerful play is about the reaction to the 1998 murder of Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming, widely considered to be a hate crime motivated by homophobia.? 
?
Mois?s Kaufman and members of New York's Tectonic Theater Project went to Laramie after the murder of Matthew Shepard and wrote a play based on more than 200 interviews they conducted there. It follows, and in some cases re-enacts, the chronology of Shepard's visit to a local bar, his kidnapping and beating, the discovery of Matthew tied to a fence, the vigil at the hospital, his death and funeral, and the trial of his killers.? 
?
The Laramie Project mixes real news reports with actors portraying friends, family, police, killers, and other Laramie residents in their own words.? The Laramie Project is produced by the Center for Gender Equity and student directed by Juno Apalla.

The Laramie Project is at heart about all American communities and provides a wonderful opportunity for open dialogue about gender equity and respect for difference. 

When:? Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, February 11, 12, 13 at 7:00 pm

Where:? Pacific University, Forest Grove, Oregon
? ? ? ? ? ???Tom Miles Theatre (directions go to www.pacificu.edu)? 

Cost:??? $10.00 ($5.00 with student ID cards) ? Pay at the door 

Special thanks to The Elise Elliott Foundation, ASSS, and the Pacific Department of Theatre and Dance

Dr. Martha Rampton
Professor of History
Director-Center for Gender Equity
Pacific University
2043 College Way
Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116
Phone: 503 352 2772
Fax:? ???503 352 3195
CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/




      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Feb  8 19:19:23 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:19:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <C7958AB1.131E6%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C7958AB1.131E6%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <0103307F-01E5-4DB2-A312-D85514C0A1B4@verizon.net>


On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:32 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:

> Unless we were an extension--so that it was one huge space...that might be worth considering.
> 
> Kristy

When dealing with the lion, read the menu before sitting down.  

Our local hospital became their extension.  And they shared Pacific's expansion with us. 

David


From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Feb  8 19:49:40 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:49:40 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
	<E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
	<267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>
	<14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1065D9B0-A7A2-450B-AE1F-5EF631CF744D@verizon.net>

I have been pushing to expand 19th through Hwy. 47, past Ace, as a continuation of the one-way couplet.  That would allow capacity for future growth with roads the same width as the current one-way streets.  Otherwise Pacific needs to be made wider, which takes land from businesses.  

In contrast, the proposal would allow some of the land currently used for road to be available for expansion of existing businesses.  The largest piece would be next to Ballad Town Shopping Center.

The parcel in question, would then have easy access West bound and East bound traffic, and good visibility from Hwy 47.  

The crossover would be at the former Haggen's site, which would receive land given up from Pacific in exchange for the land going to the crossover.  The original building proposal would still fit, with parking, and a second smaller shopping mall to the East.  It would also have easy access from West bound and East bound traffic, and visibility from three sides.

And there would be usable land for an expansion of the park at the base of the flagpole, including parking.

A picture of the proposal was at the Community Meeting.

David


On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote:

> This is the one just west of the intersection of Hwy. 47 to McMinnville.  They condemned and tore down a number of houses there some years ago,  in confident anticipation of an upscale market-- which. needless to  say...
> WW
> 
>>> ...The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it  would be nice to see it cleaned up.
>> 
>>> ... In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and  traffic on all sides and is lacking a natural water feature. ...
>>> 
>>> Maria
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From hannah at teleport.com  Mon Feb  8 19:58:51 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:58:51 -0600
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <0103307F-01E5-4DB2-A312-D85514C0A1B4@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C796399B.1322F%hannah@teleport.com>

I see your point. K


On 2/8/10 9:19 PM, "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net> wrote:

> 
> On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:32 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:
> 
>> Unless we were an extension--so that it was one huge space...that might be
>> worth considering.
>> 
>> Kristy
> 
> When dealing with the lion, read the menu before sitting down.
> 
> Our local hospital became their extension.  And they shared Pacific's
> expansion with us.
> 
> David
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Feb  8 20:04:43 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:04:43 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] You may get a kick out of this . . . .
References: <4B70B98E.2080507@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <33ABF66632D04FD7BDB606E975F74120@gerianehzkfhvy>

Quick & pretty accurate! :)


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Browning 
To: Grovenet 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] You may get a kick out of this . . . .


Here is something that is supposed to be accurate, but you have to be able to see the colors!!

bob "colorblind" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.careerpath.com/career-tests/colorcareercounselor.aspx





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb  8 21:11:42 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:11:42 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Follow up thoughts after Community Meeting
In-Reply-To: <1065D9B0-A7A2-450B-AE1F-5EF631CF744D@verizon.net>
References: <AB210005BE5044E8AB5D64F869ADDB84@JeffVAIO>
	<D3C80F8F-BAF6-40BD-A6FB-72D23AE0A6D1@teleport.com>
	<E801ED8DDA924A9694C842161B566992@JeffVAIO>
	<267020CC-1E6E-462F-B15C-EC6D24C0F871@verizon.net>
	<14DD4625-72B1-4D5B-BE52-1AD4CD934C25@teleport.com>
	<1065D9B0-A7A2-450B-AE1F-5EF631CF744D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <92BC9CEA-FC5D-4484-A3D3-95F4383BD613@teleport.com>

Yep.
On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:49 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> I have been pushing to expand 19th through Hwy. 47, past Ace, as a  
> continuation of the one-way couplet.  That would allow capacity for  
> future growth with roads the same width as the current one-way  
> streets.  Otherwise Pacific needs to be made wider, which takes  
> land from businesses.
>
> In contrast, the proposal would allow some of the land currently  
> used for road to be available for expansion of existing  
> businesses.  The largest piece would be next to Ballad Town  
> Shopping Center.
>
> The parcel in question, would then have easy access West bound and  
> East bound traffic, and good visibility from Hwy 47.
>
> The crossover would be at the former Haggen's site, which would  
> receive land given up from Pacific in exchange for the land going  
> to the crossover.  The original building proposal would still fit,  
> with parking, and a second smaller shopping mall to the East.  It  
> would also have easy access from West bound and East bound traffic,  
> and visibility from three sides.
>
> And there would be usable land for an expansion of the park at the  
> base of the flagpole, including parking.
>
> A picture of the proposal was at the Community Meeting.
>
> David
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote:
>
>> This is the one just west of the intersection of Hwy. 47 to  
>> McMinnville.  They condemned and tore down a number of houses  
>> there some years ago,  in confident anticipation of an upscale  
>> market-- which. needless to  say...
>> WW
>>
>>>> ...The triangle at the other end of town is also crummy and it   
>>>> would be nice to see it cleaned up.
>>>
>>>> ... In my opinion, the triangle is surrounded by streets and   
>>>> traffic on all sides and is lacking a natural water feature. ...
>>>>
>>>> Maria
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb  9 11:19:16 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:19:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
Message-ID: <4B71B534.50309@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100209/2f54c8dd/attachment.html 

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb  9 11:40:11 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:40:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <4B71B534.50309@jurislex.com>
References: <4B71B534.50309@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D496080D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December, 2008.

--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.

bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 18:40:27 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:40:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D496080D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December, 2008.

--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.

bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb  9 19:00:07 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:00:07 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>

Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change  
and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?

On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,  
> 2008.
>
> --Mike
>
> ________________________________
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>
> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 19:24:54 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:24:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>

Yes, climate change.

Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual & expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!


Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC


> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change  
> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
> 
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
> 
>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>
>> don
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,  
>> 2008.
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: Grovenet
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>
>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 19:56:45 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:56:45 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1086223934-1265774210-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1631713550-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

God
-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:00:07 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change  
and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?

On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,  
> 2008.
>
> --Mike
>
> ________________________________
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>
> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb  9 20:06:14 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:06:14 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
	<0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>

For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while  
the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or  
three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our  
ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast  
this weekend?
Walt

On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:

> Yes, climate change.
>
> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &  
> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>
>
> Geri
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
>
>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>
>>> don
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>
>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,
>>> 2008.
>>>
>>> --Mike
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>> To: Grovenet
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>
>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>
>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb  9 20:08:11 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:08:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1086223934-1265774210-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1631713550-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
	<1086223934-1265774210-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1631713550-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <080C32F1-96BE-40E0-B2C1-B46BA4DC7CC9@teleport.com>

If we start blaming the Big Guy for human greed and stupidity, He's  
apt to be annoyed. You wouldn't like Him when He's annoyed...

On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Steve wrote:

> God
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:00:07
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>
>> don
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,
>> 2008.
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: Grovenet
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>
>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From edavie at verizon.net  Tue Feb  9 20:43:13 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:43:13 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
	<0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <03452F765AFC410880B0FCE02A8B796C@EdDaviePC>

That's where we're headed Sunday!
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while  
> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or  
> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our  
> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast  
> this weekend?
> Walt
> 
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
> 
>> Yes, climate change.
>>
>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &  
>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>>
>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>
>>>> don
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,
>>>> 2008.
>>>>
>>>> --Mike
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>
>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb  9 22:28:20 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 22:28:20 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <03452F765AFC410880B0FCE02A8B796C@EdDaviePC>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com>
	<0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>
	<03452F765AFC410880B0FCE02A8B796C@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <6B3544F1-96C4-49B1-9F4B-CF36C62F9E93@teleport.com>

Yowsah! Hopefully it'll still be warm and no wind... if you hit the  
coast on that magical Chinook day, it's paradisical! All the  
Californians are gone and you can walk the beach in shirtsleeves...
WW
On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ed Davie wrote:

> That's where we're headed Sunday!
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
>> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while
>> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or
>> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our
>> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast
>> this weekend?
>> Walt
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, climate change.
>>>
>>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &
>>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>>
>>>
>>> Geri
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>
>>>
>>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>>
>>>>> don
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in  
>>>>> December,
>>>>> 2008.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 05:10:13 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:10:13 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com><0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <D38A4F77C38749EA9445E3AF8D42EBD1@gerianehzkfhvy>

That's the truth, Walt.  Seems like spring some days!

Hope I didn't 'jinx' it by saying that <hahaha!> ... Am
fully expecting some payback in the spring for the
many pleasant days we're having this winter.

;-)  Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC


> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while  
> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or  
> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our  
> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast  
> this weekend?
> Walt
> 
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
> 
>> Yes, climate change.
>>
>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &  
>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>>
>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>
>>>> don
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,
>>>> 2008.
>>>>
>>>> --Mike
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>
>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 05:10:54 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:10:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7DB87BB7-F1E6-4B40-82A1-03F4A4C34C4C@teleport.com><0181D58DF9F54D559161CB88186F8F36@gerianehzkfhvy><C5FAC82D-C49F-44B5-96EF-48EEA8A3E033@teleport.com>
	<03452F765AFC410880B0FCE02A8B796C@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <348F7AEA04FD451190F075E9E0AC62F2@gerianehzkfhvy>

Wishing you a pleasant visit!

:)  Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC


> That's where we're headed Sunday!
> Ed
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
> 
>> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while  
>> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or  
>> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our  
>> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast  
>> this weekend?
>> Walt
>> 
>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes, climate change.
>>>
>>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &  
>>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>>
>>>
>>> Geri
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>
>>>
>>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>>
>>>>> don
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December,
>>>>> 2008.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 06:29:25 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:29:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <6B3544F1-96C4-49B1-9F4B-CF36C62F9E93@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1752078768.1888351265812165132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Interesting to hear what Al Gore thinks as he cries all the way to the bank with our 100 million tax dollers.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:28:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Yowsah! Hopefully it'll still be warm and no wind... if you hit the  
coast on that magical Chinook day, it's paradisical! All the  
Californians are gone and you can walk the beach in shirtsleeves...
WW
On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ed Davie wrote:

> That's where we're headed Sunday!
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
>> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw," while
>> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or
>> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our
>> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast
>> this weekend?
>> Walt
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, climate change.
>>>
>>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &
>>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>>
>>>
>>> Geri
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>
>>>
>>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents change
>>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>>
>>>>> don
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in  
>>>>> December,
>>>>> 2008.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 05:59:57 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:59:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B72BBDD.2020601@gmail.com>

Wonder if President Obama will blame this on George Bush?  ;-)

Adam

donkelly wrote:
> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in December, 2008.
>
> --Mike
>
> ________________________________
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>
> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Feb 10 08:12:52 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:12:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
Message-ID: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com>

There must be a reason our community is commonly the test environment for
technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but maybe we
can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h
tml

Jeff





From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb 10 08:35:04 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:35:04 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1752078768.1888351265812165132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1752078768.1888351265812165132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <69FA62DF-56B6-4509-B9D2-181465CC42BA@teleport.com>

"tax dollers?" Bet he's in for a nasty shock when he tries to bank  
"dollers." I think that is the national currency of North  
Rattbaggistan, and the current value is about one outdated Green  
Stamp. :^)

Seriously, though, where does this flotsam about Al Gore and 100  
million tax "dollers" come from? Rush Limbaugh? Sarah Palin? Shouted  
through a barred window at the State Hospital in Salem?
Inquiring minds want to know...
WW

On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:29 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Interesting to hear what Al Gore thinks as he cries all the way to  
> the bank with our 100 million tax dollers.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:28:20 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Yowsah! Hopefully it'll still be warm and no wind... if you hit the
> coast on that magical Chinook day, it's paradisical! All the
> Californians are gone and you can walk the beach in shirtsleeves...
> WW
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ed Davie wrote:
>
>> That's where we're headed Sunday!
>> Ed
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>>> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw,"  
>>> while
>>> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or
>>> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our
>>> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast
>>> this weekend?
>>> Walt
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, climate change.
>>>>
>>>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &
>>>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Geri
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents  
>>>>> change
>>>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> don
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in
>>>>>> December,
>>>>>> 2008.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb 10 08:36:31 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:36:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <4B72BBDD.2020601@gmail.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4B72BBDD.2020601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3092D6EC-E32F-4DFB-9B68-41C2B2FDDB67@teleport.com>

Wonder if Sarah Palin will blame this on Obama? ;^)

On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:59 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Wonder if President Obama will blame this on George Bush?  ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> donkelly wrote:
>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>
>> don
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in  
>> December, 2008.
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: Grovenet
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>
>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 08:40:19 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:40:19 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <69FA62DF-56B6-4509-B9D2-181465CC42BA@teleport.com>
References: <1752078768.1888351265812165132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><69FA62DF-56B6-4509-B9D2-181465CC42BA@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <718588396-1265820023-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1886204778-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

The info on gore comes from his investment hedge fund group. Minimum buy in is $2M. Don't tell me you've never heard of it?
Just google gore hedge fund. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:35:04 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

"tax dollers?" Bet he's in for a nasty shock when he tries to bank  
"dollers." I think that is the national currency of North  
Rattbaggistan, and the current value is about one outdated Green  
Stamp. :^)

Seriously, though, where does this flotsam about Al Gore and 100  
million tax "dollers" come from? Rush Limbaugh? Sarah Palin? Shouted  
through a barred window at the State Hospital in Salem?
Inquiring minds want to know...
WW

On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:29 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Interesting to hear what Al Gore thinks as he cries all the way to  
> the bank with our 100 million tax dollers.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:28:20 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Yowsah! Hopefully it'll still be warm and no wind... if you hit the
> coast on that magical Chinook day, it's paradisical! All the
> Californians are gone and you can walk the beach in shirtsleeves...
> WW
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ed Davie wrote:
>
>> That's where we're headed Sunday!
>> Ed
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:06 PM
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>>> For the moment, I'm just enjoying our extended "February Thaw,"  
>>> while
>>> the rest of the country shivers. Seems we usually get only two or
>>> three days of Chinook weather in February. So far, we've got our
>>> ration for the next two or three years! Anyone want to hit the Coast
>>> this weekend?
>>> Walt
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Geri wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, climate change.
>>>>
>>>> Seems so weird that Vancouver, B.C., doesn't have their usual &
>>>> expected amount of snow -- for the Winter Olympics!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Geri
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:00 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Try climate change. Who can we blame when the ocean currents  
>>>>> change
>>>>> and Europe goes into the deep freeze? Al Gore, maybe?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> don
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in
>>>>>> December,
>>>>>> 2008.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>>>>>> To: Grovenet
>>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 08:52:25 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:52:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
In-Reply-To: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com>
References: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com>
Message-ID: <8D4650EFB36E4AAEB745AA1F768C0022@JeffVAIO>

Does our reliable power have anything to do with it?  I often feel 
compassion for my neighbors with PGE, who are forced to endure numerous 
power outages on a regular basis.

I feel so fortunate to have Forest Grove Power and Verizon FIOS out on the 
fringes of Thatcher Road!

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jeff Howden" <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:12 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market

> There must be a reason our community is commonly the test environment for
> technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but maybe we
> can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h
> tml
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Feb 10 10:18:06 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100210/2abfca61/attachment.html 

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 10:19:10 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:19:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <3092D6EC-E32F-4DFB-9B68-41C2B2FDDB67@teleport.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4B72BBDD.2020601@gmail.com>
	<3092D6EC-E32F-4DFB-9B68-41C2B2FDDB67@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <218085.85614.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

....and his "lack of experience".  Ain't that the pot calling the kettle black?! Actually, it's a lot worse than that. A LOT worse than that.

Holly




________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 8:36:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Wonder if Sarah Palin will blame this on Obama? ;^)

On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:59 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Wonder if President Obama will blame this on George Bush?  ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> donkelly wrote:
>> Wonder if New York will blame this on global warming.
>>
>> don
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mike Steele <steelem at pacificu.edu>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:40:11 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> This brings back fond memories of the 15 inches we had in  
>> December, 2008.
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: Grovenet
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> Here's a great timelapse video of the snow in DC.
>>
>> bob "baby, it's cold outside" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8fo9ze
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 10:37:50 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:37:50 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

So let's change the name from Warming to climate change. 
When all else fails, change the name. 
See: 1984
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 10:52:38 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:52:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <E18B2AD0-D2A0-42F4-88E6-5FF5C364695C@verizon.net>

Having a fever and the chills at the same time means you are very sick.
The same principle applies to the planet.

Some people can't fathom how the small increase in overall average  
temperature can increase the moisture in the air and thus result in  
larger snow falls and more floods.  The world will not be a uniform  
tropical paradise as the atmosphere continues to destabilize. Average  
warming and climate shifting both point to the same phenomenon.

When the names all mean the same thing it isn't 1984, it is 2010.


Katie





On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Steve wrote:

> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 11:09:18 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:09:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <666468.20201.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

That's really what it is, Steve. Climate change. As a result of these changes that largely result from increased emissions from humankind, we are and will continue to see these extreme weather changes that are really out of character for the planet's different climatic regions. Like three feet of snow in one week on the Eastern Seaboard and unseasonably spring-like weather in Oregon during January and February. If you're on the sweeter end of the stick, you get weather like we've been having here in Oregon, with perhaps the risk of drought and water shortages due to reduced snowpack in summer. If you're on the uglier end of the stick, you might get anything from more than three feet of snow dumped on your roof in one week to hurricanes, tornadoes, draughts, dust bowls, etc. It's Mother Nature trying to stir things up because she's trying to rebalance to compensate for the ways we've been messing with her. The real question is whether she'll eventually be
 able to rebalance things and whether we'll wise up quickly enough before it's too late for her to fix what we've messed up.

But, in the meantime, the frog continues to sit in the slowly warming beaker of water and doesn't jump out because the changes he notices are so gradual and he gets used to them from one minute to the next. One has to wonder if he'll stay there until he boils to death or wise up, jump out and turn down the heat. I think this analogy can be applied to lots of things that are wrong in the world:  gradual climate change, gradual removal of freedoms by our government, gradual taking over of our country by big business interests, gradual dumbing down of our society so that politicians can have greater control, gradual loss of jobs, gradual decay of our economy. The list can go on and on with respect to the ugly things we get used to and put up with because the change hasn't been dramatic enough to send people to the streets.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

So let's change the name from Warming to climate change. 
When all else fails, change the name. 
See: 1984
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Feb 10 11:09:39 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:09:39 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <E18B2AD0-D2A0-42F4-88E6-5FF5C364695C@verizon.net>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<E18B2AD0-D2A0-42F4-88E6-5FF5C364695C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D49EE7CE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

As I understand it, the really big problem would be the interruption of the warm water/cold water "conveyor belt" that girdles the various oceans.

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:53 AM
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Having a fever and the chills at the same time means you are very sick.
The same principle applies to the planet.

Some people can't fathom how the small increase in overall average  
temperature can increase the moisture in the air and thus result in  
larger snow falls and more floods.  The world will not be a uniform  
tropical paradise as the atmosphere continues to destabilize. Average  
warming and climate shifting both point to the same phenomenon.

When the names all mean the same thing it isn't 1984, it is 2010.


Katie





On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Steve wrote:

> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb 10 11:52:16 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:52:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <409DC474-E283-4B70-9A8F-B1C742206C98@teleport.com>

What changes is the size of the area being considered.
Overall, the average temperature of the globe is rising. And the  
established patterns of our climates are driven by heat convection.
Locally, some areas get warmer, some colder, as air and ocean  
currents respond the change, altering convection patterns.
If the Gulf Stream changes course, Europe could get much colder.  
Variations have already been noticed in the Gulf Stream.
If the Japan Current changes, the West Coast, particularly around  
British Columbia, could get colder.
Conversely:
If the monsoon pattern changes, large parts of Asia could become  
hotter and more arid.
Anyone wanta play Russian Roulette with millions of lives?

On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Steve wrote:

> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 12:13:21 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:13:21 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
In-Reply-To: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com>
References: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com>
Message-ID: <4B731361.1000303@gmail.com>

Seeing that at least 75% of the fiber out there is dark (not being used) 
it's only a matter of time before someone starts using it.  It's why the 
telephone was run on copper wires, by the late 1870's there were lots of 
telegraph wire not being used.  Fast forward 135 years and history is 
repeating itself.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> There must be a reason our community is commonly the test environment for
> technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but maybe we
> can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h
> tml
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 13:00:48 2010
From: chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net (Julie Larson)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:00:48 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
In-Reply-To: <4B731361.1000303@gmail.com>
References: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com> <4B731361.1000303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001caaa94$1fa8fa50$5efaeef0$@net>

Whenever this subject line comes up I have a completely different picture of
what you guys are discussing....

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Adam Mayer
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 12:13 PM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market

Seeing that at least 75% of the fiber out there is dark (not being used) 
it's only a matter of time before someone starts using it.  It's why the 
telephone was run on copper wires, by the late 1870's there were lots of 
telegraph wire not being used.  Fast forward 135 years and history is 
repeating itself.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> There must be a reason our community is commonly the test environment for
> technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but maybe we
> can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.
>
>
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h
> tml
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at ronhowden.com  Wed Feb 10 13:05:28 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:05:28 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
In-Reply-To: <000001caaa94$1fa8fa50$5efaeef0$@net>
References: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com> <4B731361.1000303@gmail.com>
	<000001caaa94$1fa8fa50$5efaeef0$@net>
Message-ID: <001601caaa94$c62cffc0$5286ff40$@com>

Dietary Fiber???

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Julie Larson
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:01 PM

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market

Whenever this subject line comes up I have a completely different picture of
what you guys are discussing....

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market

Seeing that at least 75% of the fiber out there is dark (not being used) 
it's only a matter of time before someone starts using it.  It's why the 
telephone was run on copper wires, by the late 1870's there were lots of 
telegraph wire not being used.  Fast forward 135 years and history is 
repeating itself.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> There must be a reason our community is commonly the test environment for
> technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but maybe we
> can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.
>
>
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h
> tml
>
> Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 13:07:09 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:07:09 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
In-Reply-To: <000001caaa94$1fa8fa50$5efaeef0$@net>
References: <001e01caaa6b$e630a250$b291e6f0$@com> <4B731361.1000303@gmail.com>
	<000001caaa94$1fa8fa50$5efaeef0$@net>
Message-ID: <48244203-6FDD-445D-B6B1-819459E24962@verizon.net>

I didn't get this until I thought about the cereal in the kitchen  
cabinet. Then it was funny.

Katie

On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Julie Larson wrote:

> Whenever this subject line comes up I have a completely different  
> picture of
> what you guys are discussing....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Adam Mayer
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 12:13 PM
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] High-speed Fiber Test Market
>
> Seeing that at least 75% of the fiber out there is dark (not being  
> used)
> it's only a matter of time before someone starts using it.  It's  
> why the
> telephone was run on copper wires, by the late 1870's there were  
> lots of
> telegraph wire not being used.  Fast forward 135 years and history is
> repeating itself.
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> There must be a reason our community is commonly the test  
>> environment for
>> technologies like DSL and FiOS.  I don't know what they are, but  
>> maybe we
>> can figure out what they are for Google's latest venture.
>>
>>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our- 
> experimental.h
>> tml
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Feb 11 13:18:17 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:18:17 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
Message-ID: <4B747419.1040300@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100211/5136ce4b/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blog_declan_mccullagh_60x60.png
Type: image/png
Size: 6847 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100211/5136ce4b/attachment.png 

From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Feb 12 01:58:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:58:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4B747419.1040300@jurislex.com>
References: <4B747419.1040300@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <93224D78-1EE2-49E4-A057-2F3F22A766E6@verizon.net>

How about the probable cause and search warrant route?  The seems square with our Constitution.

David

On Feb 11, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Bob Browning wrote:

> What with the FBI pushing for a law that would require ISPs and browser companies to keep full records of all websites you visit for two years, and the FBI's push to allow access to cell phone records without a warrant, it looks like the 4th Amendment is pretty well going out the window in the age of electronics!!
> 
> bob "find me a can and some string" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From Jamsm at aol.com  Fri Feb 12 07:05:05 2010
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:05:05 EST
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
Message-ID: <5dab.690d2461.38a6c821@aol.com>

This is the tip of the ice-burg.
A short time ago, I made reference  to the datum which is collected by  
your ISP, the advertisers and any site  that you have registered with are 
gathering data on you.  This information  is for sale or will be!  Read the 
'privacy statement' and policies - what  happens to the data when the company is 
sold?!
There are things you can do  and should do to protect your web privacy.  

I will say it again, delete cookies frequently.  We have a  grove-netter 
here that thinks that keeping cookies that retain your login info  is safe - I 
believe he is blatantly in error.  Think of it this way -  he works 
(directly or indirectly) for the people that are gathering this  datum. Whatever 
the reasons for his denial of what is going on  which may  be due to wishful 
thinking or he just wants to ignore what is going on to  help protect his 
employment, who knows.  He stated that he was told by a  couple of the major 
advertisers that they do not retain personal  information.  What he is 
over-looking is that they do have the data and  more if you have given them 
additional information which is easily  linked back to what you have been doing. 
Also, that was only two of the many big  players in advertising that he 
referred to. He also misunderstood what I  mentioned about identifying his 
customer base's customer's locations.  [I  will not  disclose how this can be done, 
since it appears he does not know  how to.]
 
He also supplied a To Do list to help 'protect' yourself beyond privacy  
issues.  Most of what he provided are good  recommendations; BUT just delete 
all cookies. There are other things  you can do  to help your privacy beyond 
his suggestions.  One is  to  use the "In Private" or "Start Private 
Browsing" (available in the  newer browsers) style browsing judiciously!   Deleting 
cookies  does not protect you from your ISP tracking your activity but, at 
least, removes  many other companies from tracking and gathering data about 
you.  There are  sites that allow you to create cookies that block tracking 
by the advertisers  that agree to your blocking their tracking.  The 
problems with this:  there are many other advertisers that do not subscribe to this 
privacy  feature and if the 'blocking' cookies are deleted they have to be 
recreated to  maintain your privacy.  Just more work for you.
 
 
Avoid social networking sites completely!  You have no idea how all  that 
information you freely give out will be used in the future. What bothers me  
the most in this area; a friend or contact that has detailed  personal 
information about you can store data in their address book and some  social web 
sites ask for and encourage them (you) to upload the address book  with all 
the data in the address book!   Phone numbers (published,  unpublished, 
cell), address, birthdays (birth dates), ignorant family  members (small 
businesses -  heaven forbid) may even include Social  Security numbers or even 
credit card data if they are privy to this information  and anything else they 
may have included in the 'notes' area of the address book  (health issues?). 
[When this information is transmitted to the social web  site do they 
transmit using any form of security - I doubt it.] Yes, they have  your friends and 
contacts who are not concerned about YOUR privacy  disclosing YOUR private 
information to the world!  We need  laws to be updated!

 
On the cell phone front.  I believe some phones allow you to  disable the 
GPS tracking  feature completely; but  triangulation via  cell towers can 
still be used if the phone is on.
 
Give you something to think about ?
The Grouch
 
 
In a message dated 2/11/2010 4:18:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rab at jurislex.com writes:

What with the FBI pushing for a law that would require ISPs and  browser 
companies to keep full records of all websites you visit for two  years, and 
the FBI's push to allow access to cell phone records without a  warrant, it 
looks like the 4th Amendment is pretty well going out the window  in the age 
of electronics!!

bob "find me a can and some string"  browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

February 11, 2010 4:00 AM PST 
 
Feds push for tracking cell phones
by _Declan  McCullagh_ (http://www.cnet.com/profile/declan00/) 


Two years ago, when the FBI was stymied by a band of armed robbers known  
as the "Scarecrow Bandits" that had robbed more than 20 Texas banks, it came  
up with a novel method of locating the thieves.  
FBI agents obtained logs from mobile phone companies corresponding to  what 
their cellular towers had recorded at the time of a dozen different  bank 
robberies in the Dallas area. The voluminous records showed that two  phones 
had made calls around the time of all 12 heists, and that those  phones 
belonged to men named Tony Hewitt and Corey Duffey. A jury eventually  
_convicted_ (http://cbs11tv.com/local/Scarecrow.Bandits.Guilty.2.1126588.html)   the 
duo of multiple bank robbery and weapons charges.Even though police  are 
tapping into the locations of mobile phones thousands of times a year,  the 
legal ground rules remain unclear, and federal privacy laws written a  
generation ago are ambiguous at best. On Friday, the first federal appeals  court to 
consider the topic will hear _oral arguments  (PDF)_ 
(http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/calendar/FEB0810.pdf)  in a case that could establish new standards 
for locating wireless  devices.  
In that case, the Obama administration has argued that warrantless  
tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no "reasonable expectation of  
privacy" in their--or at least their cell phones'--whereabouts. U.S.  Department 
of Justice lawyers say that "a customer's Fourth Amendment rights  are not 
violated when the phone company reveals to the government its own  records" 
that show where a mobile device placed and received calls.  
Those claims have alarmed the ACLU and other civil liberties groups,  which 
have opposed the Justice Department's request and plan to tell the  U.S. 
Third Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia that Americans' privacy  
deserves more protection and judicial oversight than what the administration  has 
proposed.  
"This is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century," says Kevin  
Bankston, an attorney at the _Electronic Frontier Foundation_ 
(http://www.eff.org/)  who will be  arguing on Friday. "If the courts do side with the 
government, that means  that everywhere we go, in the real world and online, 
will be an open book to  the government unprotected by the Fourth Amendment."  
Not long ago, the concept of tracking cell phones would have been the  
stuff of spy movies. In 1998's "Enemy of the State," Gene Hackman warned  that 
the National Security Agency has "been in bed with the entire  
telecommunications industry since the '40s--they've infected everything."  After a decade 
of appearances in "24" and "Live Free or Die Hard,"  location-tracking has 
become such a trope that it was satirized in a _scene_ 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3U2_o2yceo)  with Seth Rogen  from "Pineapple Express" (2008).  
Once a Hollywood plot, now 'commonplace'
Whether state and  federal police have been paying attention to Hollywood, 
or whether it was  the other way around, cell phone tracking has become a 
regular feature in  criminal investigations. It comes in two forms: police 
obtaining  retrospective data kept by mobile providers for their own billing  
purposes that may not be very detailed, or prospective data that  reveals the 
minute-by-minute location of a handset or mobile device.  
Obtaining location details is now "commonplace," says _Al  Gidari_ 
(http://www.perkinscoie.com/professionals/professionals_detail.aspx?professional=0a69
ed46-211a-4ceb-bb8b-9f41df8d92f7&op=news) , a partner in the Seattle 
offices of _Perkins  Coie_ (http://www.perkinscoie.com/)  who represents wireless 
carriers. "It's in every pen register order  these days."  
Gidari says that the Third Circuit case could have a significant impact  on 
police investigations within the court's jurisdiction, namely Delaware,  
New Jersey, and Pennsylvania; it could be persuasive beyond those states.  
But, he cautions, "if the privacy groups win, the case won't be over. It  will 
certainly be appealed."  
CNET was the first to report on prospective tracking in a _2005  news 
article_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/Police-blotter-Cell-phone-tracking-rejected/2100-1030_3-5846037.html) . In a subsequent Arizona case, agents from the Drug  
Enforcement Administration tracked a tractor trailer with a drug shipment  
through a GPS-equipped Nextel phone owned by the suspect. Texas DEA agents  
have used cell site information in real time to locate a Chrysler 300M  driving 
from Rio Grande City to a ranch about 50 miles away. Verizon  Wireless and 
T-Mobile logs showing the location of mobile phones at the time  calls 
became evidence in a Los Angeles murder trial.  
And a mobile phone's fleeting connection with a remote cell tower  operated 
by Edge Wireless _is  what led_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/Turning-cell-phones-into-lifelines/2100-1039_3-6140794.html)  searchers to the family of the late 
James Kim, a CNET employee  who died in the Oregon wilderness in 2006 after 
leaving a snowbound  se to seek help.  
"This  is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century. If the 
courts do  side with the government, that means that everywhere we go, in the 
real  world and online, will be an open book to the government unprotected by 
the  Fourth Amendment."  
--Kevin  Bankston, attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation

The way tracking works is simple: mobile phones are miniature radio  
transmitters and receivers. A cellular tower knows the general direction of  a 
mobile phone (many cell sites have three antennas pointing in different  
directions), and if the phone is talking to multiple towers, triangulation  yields 
a rough location fix. With this method, accuracy depends in part on  the 
density of cell sites.  
The Federal Communications Commission's "_Enhanced  911_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/Cell-.-tracking-raises-privacy-issues/2100-1033_3-846744.html) " (E911) 
requirements allowed rough estimates to be transformed into  precise 
coordinates. Wireless carriers using CDMA networks, such as Verizon  Wireless and 
Sprint Nextel, tend to use embedded GPS technology to fulfill  E911 
requirements. AT&T and T-Mobile comply with E911 regulations using  network-based 
technology that computes a phone's location using signal  analysis and 
triangulation between towers.  
T-Mobile, for instance, uses a GSM technology called _Uplink Time 
Difference of  Arrival_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-TDOA) , or U-TDOA, which 
calculates a position based on precisely how  long it takes signals to reach 
towers. A company called TruePosition, which  provides U-TDOA services to 
T-Mobile, boasts of "accuracy to under 50  meters" that's available "for 
start-of-call, midcall, or when idle."  
A _2008  court order_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/Police-Blotter-E911-rules-aid-police-in-tracking-cell-phones/2100-1030_3-6229805.html)  to T-Mobile in a 
criminal investigation of a marriage fraud  scheme, which was originally 
sealed and later made public, says: "T-Mobile  shall disclose at such intervals 
and times as directed by (the Department of  Homeland Security), latitude and 
longitude data that establishes the  approximate positions of the Subject 
Wireless Telephone, by unobtrusively  initiating a signal on its network that 
will enable it to determine the  locations of the Subject Wireless 
Telephone."  
'No reasonable expectation of privacy'
In the case that's  before the Third Circuit on Friday, the Bureau of 
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms  and Explosives, or ATF, said it needed historical 
(meaning stored, not  future) phone location information because a set of 
suspects "use their  wireless telephones to arrange meetings and transactions in 
furtherance of  their drug trafficking activities."  
U.S. Magistrate Judge Lisa Lenihan in Pennsylvania denied the Justice  
Department's attempt to obtain stored location data without a search  warrant; 
prosecutors had invoked a different legal procedure. Lenihan's  ruling, in 
effect, would require police to obtain a search warrant based on  probable 
cause--a more privacy-protective standard.  
Lenihan's _opinion  (PDF)_ 
(http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/celltracking/criminalapplicationorder_finalopinion.pdf) --which, in an unusual show of 
solidarity, was signed by four other  magistrate judges--noted that location 
information can reveal sensitive  information such as health treatments, 
financial difficulties, marital  counseling, and extra-marital affairs.  
In its appeal to the Third Circuit, the Justice Department claims that  
Lenihan's opinion "contains, and relies upon, numerous errors" and should be  
overruled. In addition to a search warrant not being necessary, prosecutors  
said, because location "records provide only a very general indication of a  
user's whereabouts at certain times in the past, the requested cell-site  
records do not implicate a Fourth Amendment privacy interest."  
The Obama administration is not alone in making this argument. U.S.  
District Judge _William Pauley_ (http://www.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=2803) , a 
 Clinton appointee in New York, wrote in a 2009 opinion that a defendant in 
a  drug trafficking case, Jose Navas, "did not have a legitimate 
expectation of  privacy in the cell phone" location. That's because Navas only used 
the cell  phone "on public thoroughfares en route from California to New York" 
and "if  Navas intended to keep the cell phone's location private, he 
simply could  have turned it off."  
(_Most  cases_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/E-tracking-through-your-cell-phone/2010-1039_3-6038468.html)  have involved the ground rules for tracking cell 
phone users  prospectively, and judges have disagreed over what legal rules 
apply.  Only a minority has sided with the Justice Department, however.)  
Cellular providers tend not to retain moment-by-moment logs of when each  
mobile device contacts the tower, in part because there's no business reason  
to store the data, and in part because the storage costs would be  
prohibitive. They do, however, keep records of what tower is in use when a  call is 
initiated or answered--and those records are generally stored for  six 
months to a year, depending on the company.  
Verizon Wireless keeps "phone records including cell site location for 12  
months," Drew Arena, Verizon's vice president and associate general counsel  
for law enforcement compliance, said at a _federal task force  meeting_ 
(http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10448060-38.html)  in Washington, D.C. last 
week. Arena said the company keeps  "phone bills without cell site location 
for seven years," and stores SMS  text messages for only a very brief time.  
Gidari, the Seattle attorney, said that wireless carriers have recently  
extended how long they store this information. "Prior to a year or two ago  
when location-based services became more common, if it were 30 days it would  
be surprising," he said.  
The ACLU, EFF, the Center for Democracy and Technology, and University of  
San Francisco law professor _Susan  Freiwald_ 
(http://www.usfca.edu/law_library/facultybib/Freiwald.html)  argue that the wording of the federal privacy 
law in question  allows judges to require the level of proof required for a 
search warrant  "before authorizing the disclosure of particularly novel or 
invasive types  of information." In addition, they say, Americans do not 
"knowingly expose  their location information and thereby surrender Fourth 
Amendment protection  whenever they turn on or use their cell phones."  
"The biggest issue at stake is whether or not courts are going to accept  
the government's minimal view of what is protected by the Fourth Amendment,"  
says EFF's Bankston. "The government is arguing that based on precedents  
from the 1970s, any record held by a third party about us, no matter how  
invasively collected, is not protected by the Fourth Amendment."  
Update 10:37 a.m. PT: A source inside the U.S. Attorney's Office  for the 
northern district of Texas, which prosecuted the Scarecrow Bandits  mentioned 
in the above article, tells me that this was the first and the  only time 
that the FBI has used the location-data-mining technique to nab  bank 
robbers. It's also worth noting that the leader of this gang, Corey  Duffey, _was 
sentenced  last month_ (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1933544.html) 
 to 354 years (not months, but years) in prison. Another  member _is  
facing_ 
(http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020510dnmetscarecrow.e5d8ab4f.html)  140 years in prison. 
 _Declan McCullagh_ (http://www.mccullagh.org/)  is a contributor to  CNET 
News and a correspondent for CBSNews.com who has covered the  intersection 
of politics and technology for over a decade. Declan writes a  regular 
feature called Taking Liberties, focused on individual and economic  rights; you 
can bookmark his CBS News _Taking  Liberties site_ 
(http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/blogs/taking_liberties/main504383.shtml) , or subscribe to the _RSS  
feed_ 
(http://feeds.feedburner.com/CBSNewsTakingLiberties?tag=contentMain;contentAux) . You can e-mail Declan at _declan at cbsnews.com_ 
(mailto:declan at cbsnews.com) .  







_______________________________________________
GroveNet  mailing  list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100212/dc80f42d/attachment.html 

From gduncangates at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 09:50:02 2010
From: gduncangates at yahoo.com (Gary Duncan-Gates)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <625011.38216.qm@web46311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Or, just lie about the "facts": 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate-change-row.html

Gary




________________________________
From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

So let's change the name from Warming to climate change. 
When all else fails, change the name. 
See: 1984
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 12 11:14:25 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:14:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <625011.38216.qm@web46311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<625011.38216.qm@web46311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <06ED0C9C-6DDA-41C5-AF0C-912E373F99FC@teleport.com>

According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on  
erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted  
after more careful investigation.
So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,  
invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical  
evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of  
real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is based?
Inquiring minds want to know....
On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:

> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/ 
> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate- 
> change-row.html
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 11:22:22 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:22:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <06ED0C9C-6DDA-41C5-AF0C-912E373F99FC@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1713493265.2948581266002542862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

We can help a little on this, but Mother Nature has the big hammer.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:14:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on  
erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted  
after more careful investigation.
So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,  
invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical  
evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of  
real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is based?
Inquiring minds want to know....
On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:

> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/ 
> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate- 
> change-row.html
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 11:46:00 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:46:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <06ED0C9C-6DDA-41C5-AF0C-912E373F99FC@teleport.com>
References: <766936850.1774461265769627531.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B72F85E.1050500@jurislex.com>
	<1053052583-1265827082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1554315928-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<625011.38216.qm@web46311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<06ED0C9C-6DDA-41C5-AF0C-912E373F99FC@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <106418.61189.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Good questions, Walt. Particularly since following Kyoto, the Union of Concern Scientists overwhelmingly came out in support of Global Warming warnings that humankind is responsible for catastrophic changes in climate that will prove devastating to life as we know it. Dozens and dozens of those scientists were Nobel laureates.  

I think Jon Stewart did a pretty excellent job of shooting holes in the logic of climate change naysayers in the clip below. He took their approach to the next level as only he can.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-10-2010/unusually-large-snowstorm

Holly




________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 11:14:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on  
erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted  
after more careful investigation.
So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,  
invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical  
evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of  
real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is based?
Inquiring minds want to know....
On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:

> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/ 
> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate- 
> change-row.html
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 12:34:47 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:34:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <106418.61189.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1783901419.2980761266006887729.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

We need to use caution in taking the short term view. 

We know of the database going back over 100 years in America showing warming trends of about 1/100th of a degree per year.

I am not concerned, nor will I take ammunition from, the cooling trends since 1998.

What I am concerned about is what happens in the next 100 years. Will temps continue to go down? Are we headed for another mini-ice age lasting ten years, or will it be another really big one lasting 50,000 years.

donkelly
----- Original Message -----
From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:46:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Good questions, Walt. Particularly since following Kyoto, the Union of Concern Scientists overwhelmingly came out in support of Global Warming warnings that humankind is responsible for catastrophic changes in climate that will prove devastating to life as we know it. Dozens and dozens of those scientists were Nobel laureates.  

I think Jon Stewart did a pretty excellent job of shooting holes in the logic of climate change naysayers in the clip below. He took their approach to the next level as only he can.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-10-2010/unusually-large-snowstorm

Holly




________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 11:14:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on  
erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted  
after more careful investigation.
So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,  
invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical  
evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of  
real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is based?
Inquiring minds want to know....
On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:

> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/ 
> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate- 
> change-row.html
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
> When all else fails, change the name.
> See: 1984
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 12 12:40:38 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:40:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1713493265.2948581266002542862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1713493265.2948581266002542862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8EEC1B6D-729F-43A7-8395-CE629F3D78C5@teleport.com>

Yup. And she doesn't negotiate.
Walt
On Feb 12, 2010, at 11:22 AM, donkelly wrote:

> We can help a little on this, but Mother Nature has the big hammer.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:14:25 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on
> erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted
> after more careful investigation.
> So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,
> invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical
> evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of
> real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is  
> based?
> Inquiring minds want to know....
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:
>
>> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/
>> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate-
>> change-row.html
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
>> When all else fails, change the name.
>> See: 1984
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
>> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 12:44:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:44:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <8EEC1B6D-729F-43A7-8395-CE629F3D78C5@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <706072828.2984831266007490789.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Yup, she BIG TIME does not negotiate.
----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:40:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC

Yup. And she doesn't negotiate.
Walt
On Feb 12, 2010, at 11:22 AM, donkelly wrote:

> We can help a little on this, but Mother Nature has the big hammer.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:14:25 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on
> erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted
> after more careful investigation.
> So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,
> invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical
> evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of
> real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is  
> based?
> Inquiring minds want to know....
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:
>
>> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/
>> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate-
>> change-row.html
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
>> When all else fails, change the name.
>> See: 1984
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
>> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 12 12:59:56 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:59:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
In-Reply-To: <1783901419.2980761266006887729.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1783901419.2980761266006887729.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B96B78F2-FACA-4466-9B35-68569B7CD50A@teleport.com>

Even if all the global climate change science is wrong and all the  
global climate researchers are a bunch of flatheads who should be  
pumping gas somewhere, the central question remains:
Are we willing to play Russian Roulette with millions of human lives?

So far, the "nonexistent" global warming has caused loss of arable  
land and outmigration from several island nations like the Maldives,  
and the abandonment of at least one village in Alaska. Of course  
these aren't "real" people like us, but they are a worrisome  
precursor to a possible future.
On Feb 12, 2010, at 12:34 PM, donkelly wrote:

> We need to use caution in taking the short term view.
>
> We know of the database going back over 100 years in America  
> showing warming trends of about 1/100th of a degree per year.
>
> I am not concerned, nor will I take ammunition from, the cooling  
> trends since 1998.
>
> What I am concerned about is what happens in the next 100 years.  
> Will temps continue to go down? Are we headed for another mini-ice  
> age lasting ten years, or will it be another really big one lasting  
> 50,000 years.
>
> donkelly
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:46:00 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> Good questions, Walt. Particularly since following Kyoto, the Union  
> of Concern Scientists overwhelmingly came out in support of Global  
> Warming warnings that humankind is responsible for catastrophic  
> changes in climate that will prove devastating to life as we know  
> it. Dozens and dozens of those scientists were Nobel laureates.
>
> I think Jon Stewart did a pretty excellent job of shooting holes in  
> the logic of climate change naysayers in the clip below. He took  
> their approach to the next level as only he can.
>
> http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-10-2010/unusually- 
> large-snowstorm
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 11:14:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>
> According to these articles, this one bit of "evidence" was based on
> erroneous, anecdotal testimony, and was quite properly retracted
> after more careful investigation.
> So... does this retraction by a UN body somehow, magically,
> invalidate all the solid scientific research and hard physical
> evidence accumulated elsewhere? Does the self-correcting feature of
> real science somehow rewrite the laws of physics upon which it is  
> based?
> Inquiring minds want to know....
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Gary Duncan-Gates wrote:
>
>> Or, just lie about the "facts":
>>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece
>>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/
>> 6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate-
>> change-row.html
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:37:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> So let's change the name from Warming to climate change.
>> When all else fails, change the name.
>> See: 1984
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
>> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:18:06
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Watch the snow fall in DC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 13:37:31 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:37:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
Message-ID: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*, I just can't help myself on this one . . . 

Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66 & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?

I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.

And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This means the state could conceivably project much more than what is required to run the state and still only be required to return what is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has quite a bit of guess-work in it.

Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.

 
Allen Warren



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Feb 12 14:44:40 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>

I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about  
what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that  
4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up  
disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general  
principles now and then.

The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless job.
Predicting the future is always risky.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,  
> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>
> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really  
> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't  
> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the  
> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66  
> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the  
> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks  
> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>
> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's  
> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>
> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many  
> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over  
> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This  
> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is  
> required to run the state and still only be required to return what  
> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any  
> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has  
> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>
> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting  
> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Feb 12 15:35:53 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:35:53 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
In-Reply-To: <5dab.690d2461.38a6c821@aol.com>
References: <5dab.690d2461.38a6c821@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003001caac3c$1e7f12a0$5b7d37e0$@com>

> I will say it again, delete cookies frequently.  We have a
> grove-netter here that thinks that keeping cookies that
> retain your login info is safe - I believe he is blatantly
> in error. [...]

I believe your tinfoil hat may be on a bit too tight, sir.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

Painting all cookies in a bad light is the same as saying all screwdrivers,
hammers, or chainsaws should be confiscated and thrown away because a few
people use them as weapons.  A few using them in a nefarious fashion does
not make them all bad.

I agree that there are some that use cookies to track and invade our
privacy.  I advocate not only deleting those cookies, but blocking those
sites from setting cookies to begin with.  Advertisers, especially ad
networks that have their banners embedded on sites all across the internet,
are the worst when it comes to privacy offenses.  I'd recommend even taking
it a step further and using an ad-blocking browser add-on, if available.  My
preference is for AdBlock Plus for Firefox.  Not only do I not see most ads,
but I am also not harboring cookies for those ads as they're never served to
me.  Finally, most modern browsers offer the ability to block what are
called third-party cookies.  These are cookies that come along with banner
ads and other things displayed on a page that are coming from a third party
and not from the same server/domain as the page they're placed on.  By
blocking third-party cookies you're curbing much of the abuse of cookies.

I can cite several examples of cookies that are completely harmless, yet
extremely helpful to the user.

#1 - Public Form

Using a cookie that contains nothing but a timestamp of the last time the
user was at the site, the posts can be marked as "new" for any that are
newer than the timestamp in the user's cookie.  Now, the user can concern
themselves with reading new material since they were there last.  The site
doesn't gain any meaningful insight into this particular individual by the
use of this cookie, but the user gets an appreciable benefit to not deleting
this cookie.

#2 - Blog Comment Form

Using one or more cookies, I can opt to have the blog remember the name,
email address, and website fields on the comment form.  Then on subsequent
uses of the comment form it's prefilled with that info so I don't have to
bother typing it in again.  They already have that info so they're not
gaining anything by it being stored in a cookie, yet I save valuable time
when commenting.

#3 - Web Application

A web application provides several different widths for the interface to its
users.  Using a cookie, that preference is stored on the user's computer.
On subsequent visits the value from the cookie is used to customize their
experience to their preferred format.  The site doesn't gain anything by
that information but the user's experience is improved.

That's just three completely useful and innocent uses of cookies out of the
myriad of uses.

Now, to more info:

Disabling third party cookies (Firefox)
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Disabling+third+party+cookies

Block Third-Party Cookies in IE7
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/block-third-party-cookies-in-ie
7/

AdBlock Plus (for Firefox)
http://adblockplus.org/en/

> [...] Think of it this way - he works (directly or indirectly)
> for the people that are gathering this datum. Whatever the
> reasons for his denial of what is going on which may be due
> to wishful thinking or he just wants to ignore what is going
> on to help protect his employment, who knows. [...]

You would do well to *never* question my ethics in this regard, sir.  You
are patently mistaken to even *suggest* there's guilt by association.

> [...] He stated that he was told by a couple of the major
> advertisers that they do not retain personal information.

If you're going to quote me, at least do so truthfully and contextually.
For others:

  "However, from working with numerous ad agencies because
   of a few clients, I happen to know that none of them
   place very much significance on IP address.  Data
   collected by IP address is used for non-user-specific
   data sets, browsing habits, etc.  However, it is not
   tied to particular users or even particular computers. 
   It is only mined for aggregates and regional (which has
   its own caveats) information."

See, what I was referring to is about IP addresses, not cookies or personal
information.

I never said they don't retain personal information.  I said that IP
addresses don't have much worth to them as they don't directly to any one
individual and the data being collected about any one of those individuals.

> [...] What he is over-looking is that they do have the
> data and more if you have given them additional
> information which is easily linked back to what you
> have been doing. Also, that was only two of the many
> big players in advertising that he referred to. [...]

No, I'm not overlooking that at all.  Yes, the more info you give them, the
more they have cataloged.  They connect the dots via the sites you use that
they have their advertisements on and the glue for all of this is their use
of cookies.  It is *not* however connected with IP address data, just to be
clear.

Aside: I never once said "two", "a couple", or made any other mention to a
specific number of advertisers I've worked with or discussed their data
collection and mining practices.  Those quantities are *your* (erroneous)
attributions and I reject them categorically.

> [...] He also misunderstood what I mentioned about
> identifying his customer base's customer's locations. 
> [I will not  disclose how this can be done, since it
> appears he does not know how to.]

No, I didn't misunderstand.  I know exactly what methods are currently
available for determining a customer's location, assuming they don't just
give it to you.   The method currently available involves determining
location based on the IP address they're connecting with.

Aside: How do you like using Verizon to connect to AOL?  Is that working for
you?

The issue with using that as an absolute is that many people, especially
those on networks like AOL all appear to connect from Virginia because
that's where all network traffic for AOL users is routed through first.  The
other issue is that there may be only one or there may be hundreds of users
(in the case of a business) that connect to the Internet through a single
outfacing IP address.  So, while you can determine location, there's no good
way to break up all the activity into distinct users, let alone even know
that there are distinct users you need to break that traffic up for.
Datasets based solely on IP address are simply too difficult to make any
sense of at the individual level.

So, about the thing I supposedly misunderstood and you somehow have some
sort of secret knowledge that you'll now lord over me.  Let me refresh your
memory:

  "Try helping someone research a health issue - before
   48 hours are up you will likely receive emails  (spam)
   promoting some product or treatment for the ailments you
   were researching.  Probably faster if you register at
   some site while researching. Try it!"

You failed to provide anything beyond a vague claim that had no meat or
substance to it.

Pony up with something that corroborates your position or drop it.  Based on
my professional experience, I'm inclined to think you're either boldface
lying or you're clinging to an urban legend someone told you is true and you
want so badly to believe.  Prove me wrong.

> [...] BUT just delete all cookies. [...]

No harm in deleting all cookies, except for all those cookies that are used
to make your browsing experience online more pleasant, customized, etc.

> [...] One is to use the "In Private" or "Start
> Private Browsing" (available in the newer browsers)
> style browsing judiciously!

First, it makes sense to understand what a private browsing session actually
does.

It does *not* make your interactions with websites any different.  A private
browsing session doesn't make you or your information any more or less safe
online.  What a private browsing session does is "protects" you from others
using your computer from seeing where you've been online during that private
browsing session.

If you *really* want to look into privacy, you need to look into something
like the Tor Project.

http://www.torproject.org/


> Avoid social networking sites completely! [...]

I've already stated my position on this.

> [...] You have no idea how all that information you
> freely give out will be used in the future. [...]

And I'm sure that all the posts of "Well, it's bedtime" or "I didn't wanna
get up this morning" or "Yay, fruit for lunch!" or "My dog crapped in my
shoe" and so on is *extremely* valuable bits of info to, ummm, *no one*.

Like I said before:

  "You don't have to post online every little thing
   you do in your daily life.  Not everything you
   put online is worth data mining, but is
   contextually valuable to your social connections."

> [...] What bothers me the most in this area; a friend
> or contact that has detailed personal information about
> you can store data in their address book and some social
> web sites ask for and encourage them (you) to upload
> the address book with all the data in the address book! 
> Phone numbers (published, unpublished, cell), address,
> birthdays (birth dates), ignorant family members (small
> businesses -  heaven forbid) may even include Social
> Security numbers or even credit card data if they are
> privy to this information and anything else they may
> have included in the 'notes' area of the address book
> (health issues?). [When this information is transmitted
> to the social web site do they transmit using any form
> of security - I doubt it.] [...] We need laws to be
> updated!

I agree that this is a VERY valid cause for concern.

> On the cell phone front.  I believe some phones allow
> you to disable the GPS tracking feature completely; but 
> triangulation via cell towers can still be used if the
> phone is on.

Agreed and can be of some concern.  However, the amount of concern is likely
inversely proportional to the level of legality with which you're conducting
yourself, I'm inclined to think.  I think the ability for an individual to
use the GPS capabilities against another individual is where the real
privacy issues lie.

Jeff



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 15:46:42 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:46:42 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

The egyptians saved 1/7th of production against a bad year. 
If only we could find a definition of "bad year". 
-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about  
what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that  
4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up  
disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general  
principles now and then.

The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless job.
Predicting the future is always risky.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,  
> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>
> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really  
> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't  
> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the  
> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66  
> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the  
> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks  
> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>
> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's  
> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>
> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many  
> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over  
> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This  
> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is  
> required to run the state and still only be required to return what  
> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any  
> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has  
> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>
> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting  
> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 16:22:14 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:22:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
	<926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Steve, how about the inverse?  Assume every year is bad and define a "good" year.

My argument remains the same: why can't our elected officials at least try to show some semblance of having a backbone and reform the kicker tax?  I still think this is an issue where those who both supported passage of Measures 66 & 67 AND won't see any increase in their taxes as a result of those 2 Measures passing will put up a fight if the State chooses to make a change that would reduce any of the current kicker refund tax, a move that will directly negatively impact their pocketbooks.  I'm not disagreeing the business tax was too low prior to the Measure passing, but with the recently-passed Measures  taxes were raised on 3% of the population and the measures passed by 100,000
votes. Reforming the kicker tax would raise taxes in the form of no kicker refunds on 100% of the folks and all of a sudden the Democrats in Salem are saying "no dice".  Can't help but be irritated at what I view as a double standard.

Our entire state system of funding is terribly unstable yet almost no one seems to want to even talk about reforming the kicker tax or, horror of horrors, talk about a general sales tax such that Oregon could possibly change the image the rest of the country sees as one of Oregon being a tourist haven.

Salem for the most part = lack of Leadership.

 
Allen Warren

From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>

To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 3:46:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

The egyptians saved 1/7th of production against a bad year. 
If only we could find a definition of "bad year". 
-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about  
what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that  
4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up  
disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general  
principles now and then.

The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless job.
Predicting the future is always risky.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,  
> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>
> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really  
> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't  
> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the  
> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66  
> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the  
> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks  
> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>
> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's  
> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>
> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many  
> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over  
> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This  
> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is  
> required to run the state and still only be required to return what  
> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any  
> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has  
> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>
> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting  
> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Feb 12 17:06:28 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:06:28 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
	<926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Steve, how about the inverse?  Assume every year is bad and define  
> a "good" year.
>
> My argument remains the same: why can't our elected officials at  
> least try to show some semblance of having a backbone and reform  
> the kicker tax?  I still think this is an issue where those who  
> both supported passage of Measures 66 & 67 AND won't see any  
> increase in their taxes as a result of those 2 Measures passing  
> will put up a fight if the State chooses to make a change that  
> would reduce any of the current kicker refund tax, a move that will  
> directly negatively impact their pocketbooks.  I'm not disagreeing  
> the business tax was too low prior to the Measure passing, but with  
> the recently-passed Measures  taxes were raised on 3% of the  
> population and the measures passed by 100,000
> votes. Reforming the kicker tax would raise taxes in the form of no  
> kicker refunds on 100% of the folks and all of a sudden the  
> Democrats in Salem are saying "no dice".  Can't help but be  
> irritated at what I view as a double standard.
>
> Our entire state system of funding is terribly unstable yet almost  
> no one seems to want to even talk about reforming the kicker tax  
> or, horror of horrors, talk about a general sales tax such that  
> Oregon could possibly change the image the rest of the country sees  
> as one of Oregon being a tourist haven.
>
> Salem for the most part = lack of Leadership.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 3:46:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> The egyptians saved 1/7th of production against a bad year.
> If only we could find a definition of "bad year".
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
> But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about
> what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that
> 4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up
> disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general
> principles now and then.
>
> The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless  
> job.
> Predicting the future is always risky.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,
>> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>>
>> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really
>> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't
>> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the
>> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66
>> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the
>> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks
>> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>>
>> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's
>> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>>
>> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many
>> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over
>> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This
>> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is
>> required to run the state and still only be required to return what
>> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any
>> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has
>> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>>
>> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
>> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
>> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
>> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting
>> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 17:14:37 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:14:37 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>	<926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000001caac49$e9a93110$bcfb9330$@net>

The voters have been wanting Salem to cut costs, but they don't know one
trusts a rewrite.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the
Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the
result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always
followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 5:06 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 17:17:25 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:17:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
	<926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <412425.40366.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Katie,

I do agree business leaders are very irritated w/our elected officials but I think the real constraint isn't so much the business leaders as it is the Union bloc of voters supporting the Democratic Party.  The union bloc was extremely influential in getting both 66 & 67 passed, and they're still very much influencing our elected officials more so I believe than the business community.  And I respectfully disagree that legislators would jump at the chance to reform the kicker tax if business leaders were in support.  I think the union bloc carries more clout in Salem right now than business leaders.  'Course I'm probably as wrong as ever.  But who really knows?

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:06:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Steve, how about the inverse?  Assume every year is bad and define  
> a "good" year.
>
> My argument remains the same: why can't our elected officials at  
> least try to show some semblance of having a backbone and reform  
> the kicker tax?  I still think this is an issue where those who  
> both supported passage of Measures 66 & 67 AND won't see any  
> increase in their taxes as a result of those 2 Measures passing  
> will put up a fight if the State chooses to make a change that  
> would reduce any of the current kicker refund tax, a move that will  
> directly negatively impact their pocketbooks.  I'm not disagreeing  
> the business tax was too low prior to the Measure passing, but with  
> the recently-passed Measures  taxes were raised on 3% of the  
> population and the measures passed by 100,000
> votes. Reforming the kicker tax would raise taxes in the form of no  
> kicker refunds on 100% of the folks and all of a sudden the  
> Democrats in Salem are saying "no dice".  Can't help but be  
> irritated at what I view as a double standard.
>
> Our entire state system of funding is terribly unstable yet almost  
> no one seems to want to even talk about reforming the kicker tax  
> or, horror of horrors, talk about a general sales tax such that  
> Oregon could possibly change the image the rest of the country sees  
> as one of Oregon being a tourist haven.
>
> Salem for the most part = lack of Leadership.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 3:46:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> The egyptians saved 1/7th of production against a bad year.
> If only we could find a definition of "bad year".
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
> But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about
> what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that
> 4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up
> disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general
> principles now and then.
>
> The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless  
> job.
> Predicting the future is always risky.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,
>> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>>
>> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really
>> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't
>> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the
>> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66
>> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the
>> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks
>> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>>
>> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's
>> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>>
>> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many
>> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over
>> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This
>> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is
>> required to run the state and still only be required to return what
>> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any
>> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has
>> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>>
>> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
>> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
>> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
>> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting
>> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 17:26:45 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:26:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <000001caac49$e9a93110$bcfb9330$@net>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net>
	<926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net>
	<000001caac49$e9a93110$bcfb9330$@net>
Message-ID: <147889.11444.qm@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

You know, it's probably a good thing I'm not registered in any one party nor have the time or money to run for elected office.  Even if I would run and by some miracle I got voted in, my fellow legislators would probably be the ones initiating a recall petition in the first month.  :-)

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:14:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

The voters have been wanting Salem to cut costs, but they don't know one
trusts a rewrite.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the
Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the
result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always
followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 5:06 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From nospam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 12 17:28:52 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:28:52 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <412425.40366.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net><926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net><412425.40366.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <387672373-1266024540-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1887083748-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

The state workers are the biggest union. Vote themselves more money. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:17:25 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

Katie,

I do agree business leaders are very irritated w/our elected officials but I think the real constraint isn't so much the business leaders as it is the Union bloc of voters supporting the Democratic Party.  The union bloc was extremely influential in getting both 66 & 67 passed, and they're still very much influencing our elected officials more so I believe than the business community.  And I respectfully disagree that legislators would jump at the chance to reform the kicker tax if business leaders were in support.  I think the union bloc carries more clout in Salem right now than business leaders.  'Course I'm probably as wrong as ever.  But who really knows?

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:06:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie


On Feb 12, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Steve, how about the inverse?  Assume every year is bad and define  
> a "good" year.
>
> My argument remains the same: why can't our elected officials at  
> least try to show some semblance of having a backbone and reform  
> the kicker tax?  I still think this is an issue where those who  
> both supported passage of Measures 66 & 67 AND won't see any  
> increase in their taxes as a result of those 2 Measures passing  
> will put up a fight if the State chooses to make a change that  
> would reduce any of the current kicker refund tax, a move that will  
> directly negatively impact their pocketbooks.  I'm not disagreeing  
> the business tax was too low prior to the Measure passing, but with  
> the recently-passed Measures  taxes were raised on 3% of the  
> population and the measures passed by 100,000
> votes. Reforming the kicker tax would raise taxes in the form of no  
> kicker refunds on 100% of the folks and all of a sudden the  
> Democrats in Salem are saying "no dice".  Can't help but be  
> irritated at what I view as a double standard.
>
> Our entire state system of funding is terribly unstable yet almost  
> no one seems to want to even talk about reforming the kicker tax  
> or, horror of horrors, talk about a general sales tax such that  
> Oregon could possibly change the image the rest of the country sees  
> as one of Oregon being a tourist haven.
>
> Salem for the most part = lack of Leadership.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 3:46:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> The egyptians saved 1/7th of production against a bad year.
> If only we could find a definition of "bad year".
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:44:40
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> I think we would be better off if we put away 4% instead of just 3%.
> But of course I would probably disagree with the legislators about
> what parts of the budget should be trimmed in order to free up  that
> 4% also.  That's the trouble with politicians. I always wind up
> disagreeing with them in the details even when we agree on general
> principles now and then.
>
> The person I feel sorry for is the forecaster. That is a thankless  
> job.
> Predicting the future is always risky.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
>> I know I'm stepping into swirling waters with this posting, *BUT*,
>> I just can't help myself on this one . . .
>>
>> Per the article on the front page of today's Oregonian, what really
>> is the reason the Democratic-party state elected officials won't
>> touch the kicker tax for reform when they were in support of the
>> taxes just passed via Measures 66 & 67?  Is it because Measures 66
>> & 67 only hit up businesses and more prosperous Oregonians vs. the
>> kicker tax which affects all Oregonians, i.e. many of the folks
>> that supported and helped pass Measures 66 & 67?
>>
>> I'm thinking the Democrats are trying to protect their base.  It's
>> politics and I realize it even though I'm not in agreement w/it.
>>
>> And here's the thing about the kicker that I believe some/many
>> don't realize: the kicker surplus is simply funds that come in over
>> the projections, not what is required for funding the state. This
>> means the state could conceivably project much more than what is
>> required to run the state and still only be required to return what
>> is considered a surplus, i.e. 2% over projections.  And as any
>> financial analyst will vouch for the business of "projecting" has
>> quite a bit of guess-work in it.
>>
>> Currently Bruce Starr, a Senator, has proposed legislation to take 3%
>> of the projected funds and place that into a reserve fund. This would
>> leave the kicker intact, and demand that the legislature actually do
>> some saving, which means there's a better probability of getting
>> zero precipitation the next 30 days vs. Starr's legislation passing.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 17:35:10 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:35:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <387672373-1266024540-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1887083748-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net><926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net><412425.40366.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<387672373-1266024540-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1887083748-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <651146.11766.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Steven, agreed the state workers are the biggest union.  This is why I believe, and again, just my belief, they carry more influence than business leaders.  Agree w/Katie's statement we had the perfect storm with 66/67.  Still believe even if the business leaders got behind a kicker reform initiative the Democrats in Salem would not move forward w/reform given the union influence.   But again, hard to know since biz leaders are pretty steamed w/the legislators and I don't seem any biz leader wanting to consider supporting kicker reform.
 

Allen Warren

From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>

To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:28:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

The state workers are the biggest union. Vote themselves more money. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:17:25 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

Katie,

I do agree business leaders are very irritated w/our elected officials but I think the real constraint isn't so much the business leaders as it is the Union bloc of voters supporting the Democratic Party.  The union bloc was extremely influential in getting both 66 & 67 passed, and they're still very much influencing our elected officials more so I believe than the business community.  And I respectfully disagree that legislators would jump at the chance to reform the kicker tax if business leaders were in support.  I think the union bloc carries more clout in Salem right now than business leaders.  'Course I'm probably as wrong as ever.  But who really knows?


Allen Warren

________________________________
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:06:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform

I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we  
see the source as different.
The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would  
indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the  
businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support  
for tax reform.
The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to  
also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both  
ways.
Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any  
tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are  
the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of  
circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was  
then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would  
support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.

All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money  
drives elections.

Katie


      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Feb 12 20:23:39 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:23:39 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
In-Reply-To: <651146.11766.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <526489.51404.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><BA03A973-A011-43E7-BBBB-8627BF112BE4@verizon.net><926760834-1266018410-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-705662236-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><305925.42309.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><FE3C7AD8-58F1-4879-A610-EB78E52CBDD9@verizon.net><412425.40366.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<387672373-1266024540-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1887083748-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<651146.11766.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <18BF65D9-C7BA-4FFD-ADF2-A5366F3C3419@verizon.net>

I don't know all the union folks but those that I do know are very  
much in favor of kicker reform.  The only thing more irritating and  
destructive than perennially low budgets is a budget that yo yos up  
and down.  Too much energy goes into gearing up for a new plan then  
taking it apart the next year.

Steady funding at a lower level is preferable to chaos from year to  
year, so it is not the union members that are fighting kicker reform.

Katie
And of course I know higher funding at steady level is utopia but we  
are all adults here and know that is never going to happen.

On Feb 12, 2010, at 5:35 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> Steven, agreed the state workers are the biggest union.  This is  
> why I believe, and again, just my belief, they carry more influence  
> than business leaders.  Agree w/Katie's statement we had the  
> perfect storm with 66/67.  Still believe even if the business  
> leaders got behind a kicker reform initiative the Democrats in  
> Salem would not move forward w/reform given the union influence.    
> But again, hard to know since biz leaders are pretty steamed w/the  
> legislators and I don't seem any biz leader wanting to consider  
> supporting kicker reform.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:28:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> The state workers are the biggest union. Vote themselves more money.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:17:25
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> Katie,
>
> I do agree business leaders are very irritated w/our elected  
> officials but I think the real constraint isn't so much the  
> business leaders as it is the Union bloc of voters supporting the  
> Democratic Party.  The union bloc was extremely influential in  
> getting both 66 & 67 passed, and they're still very much  
> influencing our elected officials more so I believe than the  
> business community.  And I respectfully disagree that legislators  
> would jump at the chance to reform the kicker tax if business  
> leaders were in support.  I think the union bloc carries more clout  
> in Salem right now than business leaders.  'Course I'm probably as  
> wrong as ever.  But who really knows?
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
> ________________________________
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:06:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kicker tax reform
>
> I agree with you Allen that there is a double standard but perhaps we
> see the source as different.
> The legislature would be glad to reform the kicker law which would
> indeed impact 100% of the people. It would also impact 100% of the
> businesses and those are the ones who have removed a lot of support
> for tax reform.
> The business leaders who supported kicker reform before 66/67 seem to
> also have a double standard now that 66/67 have passed.  It cuts both
> ways.
> Since this is an election year the politicians will no move on any
> tax reform that the business leaders won't support because they are
> the ones with lots of money to spend in campaigns.
> 66/67 were exceptions to the rule because of a perfect storm of
> circumstances in the economy and in the minds of voters. But that was
> then and this is now, as the saying goes. If business leaders would
> support kicker reform the legislators would be all over it.
>
> All governing bodies = lack of leadership     ...  as long as money
> drives elections.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From Jamsm at aol.com  Sat Feb 13 02:12:14 2010
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:12:14 EST
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
Message-ID: <a04.110bc331.38a7d4fe@aol.com>

Yes - we are entitled to have our own opinions - and mine is that most  
cookies that get stored on my system  have limited to no value to  me.
I have not intended to imply that you don't know your stuff - but saying  
that I am wearing a tin hat is going too far and is the typical liberal 
attack  to attempt to discredit one.  I did point out that you work with the  ad 
business therefore have motivations to discourage wholesale delete of  
cookies. Which you then use the time standard arguments not to while  ignoring 
the hazards (below you seem to understand some of my reasoning.)
 
So you prefer selective cookie deletion - how many users do you think know  
of or can use tools to selective delete, let alone have the time to wade 
through  the hundreds of cookies one acquires to decide what cookie is safe or 
 intrusive.  Some tools will aide you, but they are not complete in their  
efforts.  It is far easier to delete all cookies.  Another point - how  many 
people use customization at web sites that are saved to cookies - I propose 
 that fewer of the older crowd do, while the younger crowd may do so  more 
often.  I believe the younger crowd is less conscious of privacy  issues 
also.

My statements have mostly been based on past experience and my  knowledge 
of the Internet (much of which probably predates your touching a  PC.)  You 
also have been doing a line by line chop and chew of selected  statements I 
make vs looking at the overall statement/point I am trying to  make on the 
general topic.
 
While I was talking about IP addresses in the beginning of one of the posts 
 - I switched to tracking of one's activity.  That is not normally done via 
 IP address as IP addresses are not reliable (which you concur) for  
identifying someone.  Cookies identify a PC and sometimes the  individual.  You 
state below that IP addresses are not good for  personalized localized 
information of an individual.    [I  dislike having to quote people.]
"  So, while you can determine location, there's no good
way to  break up all the activity into distinct users, let alone even know
that there  are distinct users you need to break that traffic up for.
Data sets based  solely on IP address are simply too difficult to make any
sense of at the  individual level."

What you seem to be missing - the IP address can give general information  
of where customers 'might' be. What part of the country etc. (not 
necessarily  accurate but still useful.)  But, then it may be that the "ever so 
beloved  cookie" is giving you so much more detailed data that the IP address is 
of no  use to you. But if more people regularly (with high frequency or 
blocked them  completely) destroyed cookies then you would have to go back to 
large  granule data points like the IP address to get information.  Your  
statements below tend to imply you have a vested interest in people keeping  
cookies.  Do I  want to trust your advice on the matter - I think not  - as it 
appears you have a reason to want cookies retained and you work in that  
industry. It appears you have a biased opinion.  Why are you so defensive  over 
cookies?
 
The number of so called useful cookies are few compared to the number that  
are invasive and reporting on your web use.  The third party trackers are  
free to use this data about you in most any way they desire. (Did you see  
the generalization I made here?  )  There are some cookies that  provide 
limited benefit for a short duration such as a shopping cart. But is  that 
useful, to me, beyond my making a purchase - No!  Sometimes you have  to put 
stuff in  a shopping cart just to find out what the site charges for  shipping - 
and emptying the cart does not necessarily destroy the fact that you  
'considered' buying it. (did you see the quote marks - those are there for a  
reason.)  I consider it best to destroy all the history.  Some  sites have 
gotten smart and store information on their site so when you login  they can 
make sale pitches based on your previous purchases.  So, don't  login until you 
are ready to buy your next item.  Otherwise, the prices you  see might be 
based on what you paid for similar items.  (Yes, many  sites don't do this. 
But I bet some do. But can all of them do this? -  yes!)
 
Have you ever noticed that at times if you examine a product, then look  
into the details of a more expensive item, that the price of the lower priced  
one goes up the next time you view it; but if you delete the cookies then 
you  get the lower price back again? Some of this may be due to 
'localization'  pricing but other times I believe it is the marketers trying to steer  a 
buyer toward spending more money for various reasons.  (Left ambiguity  here 
on purpose.)    I  know this occurs at some sites; If  you check on a price 
of an item at sites that have a web price and a  brick-n--mortar store 
price.  Try it at sites that have  brick-n-mortar and do not have web price 
matching - see what happens.  The new higher price will be applied to your web 
purchase price!  So  blast those cookies - or you pay more!  Watch those 
prices carefully, see a  sudden price jump - time to blast the cookies again!  
Oh gee - whiz,  the site just forgot what area I live in - too bad!  Been to 
a few sites  where deleting cookies did not help  - I suspect they used the 
IP address,  for a limited time, to help track you.  Hope, I am not giving 
you  ideas.  Now that I think about it- I should have refreshed the IP 
address  to see if  they forgot. [I wish I remembered what sites that was done  
on.]
 
In my experience, cookies have very limited usefulness.  The  advertisers 
discovered they can use them in ways the cookies were never  intended and the 
user has no real protection against it.  With the use  of 'beacons' and 
cookies the web user is at the mercy of privacy invaders. [If  you don't have 
cookies enabled, many web sites will not allow you to view  the page. I would 
prefer to have them disabled all the time.]  What you  list as very useful 
traits for cookies were the very areas that cookies were  originally 
designed for -  not what they are used for by marketing/ad  companies.  The ad 
companies have destroyed the usefulness of cookies. Very  few sites will give 
you a list of cookies and state their purpose.  So  again the user is left to 
guess the purpose.  Easy solution - blast  the useless things into oblivion!
 
So you don't want people deleting cookies - explain why you don't want them 
 to destroy "their" cookies?
The cookies are on "their" PC not yours!  If someone advocates the  
deletion- so be it. The person that deletes cookies is gaining a  little more 
privacy - with just a few clicks. [I use a tool that blasts my temp  files while 
I am at it. Done intelligently, as this should not be done after  installing 
something without having rebooted or using the tool the first time as  some 
programs will still have finalization activities occur at first use,  also 
should not be performed while you have programs open.  ]
 
You do mention some good points and methods below how to block ads and  
cookies but they are not complete.  Many invasive cookies get past those  
features and tools.  I have over 12 devices connected to the web  here.   This 
system is the only one running AOL, reason - AOL  defeats 3rd party cookie 
blocking and most ad blocking tools for their  select ad partners.  How many 
other tools (services) do this would be  an interesting study.  It appears, 
AOL even stores away its own copy  of the cookies.  [Discovered by searching 
system.]
 
[Oh, part of the reason I do use AOL, is for the limited animosity it  can 
provide in certain cases.  But at the same time, I am very aware  of the 
invasion of privacy AOL and it's partners are doing. This is not my  primary 
system.]
 
 
Another point that we have not discussed is the invasion and take over of  
one's PC when you install certain software when you use the default  
install.  I never recommend default installs - use advanced install so  you can 
hopefully see what the program claims it will change.  Then  once installed, 
review every setting that the program has configured itself  for.  A sample of 
one that does extreme take over is iPod related.   Apple's software will go 
so far as to take over the CD/DVD drive and  prevent you from burning your 
own audio discs.  [I recently experienced  this.  I installed the Apple 
software for my son's iPod, but when I  went to use Windows Media Player to 
create an audio CD of MY personal  audio files, I was blocked until I scrubbed 
the Apple garbage off my system and  I reinstalled the device driver.]
 
I am glad to see that you agree and understand some of the points I am  
attempting to make.
The Grouch
 
 
In a message dated 2/12/2010 6:36:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
admin at jeffhowden.com writes:

> I  will say it again, delete cookies frequently.  We have a
>  grove-netter here that thinks that keeping cookies that
> retain your  login info is safe - I believe he is blatantly
> in error.  [...]

I believe your tinfoil hat may be on a bit too tight,  sir.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

Painting all cookies in  a bad light is the same as saying all screwdrivers,
hammers, or chainsaws  should be confiscated and thrown away because a few
people use them as  weapons.  A few using them in a nefarious fashion does
not make them  all bad.

I agree that there are some that use cookies to track and  invade our
privacy.  I advocate not only deleting those cookies, but  blocking those
sites from setting cookies to begin with.  Advertisers,  especially ad
networks that have their banners embedded on sites all across  the internet,
are the worst when it comes to privacy offenses.  I'd  recommend even taking
it a step further and using an ad-blocking browser  add-on, if available.  
My
preference is for AdBlock Plus for  Firefox.  Not only do I not see most 
ads,
but I am also not harboring  cookies for those ads as they're never served 
to
me.  Finally, most  modern browsers offer the ability to block what are
called third-party  cookies.  These are cookies that come along with banner
ads and other  things displayed on a page that are coming from a third party
and not from  the same server/domain as the page they're placed on.  By
blocking  third-party cookies you're curbing much of the abuse of cookies.

I can  cite several examples of cookies that are completely harmless,  yet
extremely helpful to the user.

#1 - Public Form

Using a  cookie that contains nothing but a timestamp of the last time the
user was  at the site, the posts can be marked as "new" for any that are
newer than  the timestamp in the user's cookie.  Now, the user can  concern
themselves with reading new material since they were there  last.  The site
doesn't gain any meaningful insight into this  particular individual by the
use of this cookie, but the user gets an  appreciable benefit to not 
deleting
this cookie.

#2 - Blog Comment  Form

Using one or more cookies, I can opt to have the blog remember the  name,
email address, and website fields on the comment form.  Then on  subsequent
uses of the comment form it's prefilled with that info so I  don't have to
bother typing it in again.  They already have that info  so they're not
gaining anything by it being stored in a cookie, yet I save  valuable time
when commenting.

#3 - Web Application

A web  application provides several different widths for the interface to  
its
users.  Using a cookie, that preference is stored on the user's  computer.
On subsequent visits the value from the cookie is used to  customize their
experience to their preferred format.  The site  doesn't gain anything by
that information but the user's experience is  improved.

That's just three completely useful and innocent uses of  cookies out of the
myriad of uses.

Now, to more  info:

Disabling third party cookies  (Firefox)
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Disabling+third+party+cookies

Block  Third-Party Cookies in  IE7
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/block-third-party-cookies-in-ie
7/

AdBlock  Plus (for Firefox)
http://adblockplus.org/en/

> [...] Think of it  this way - he works (directly or indirectly)
> for the people that are  gathering this datum. Whatever the
> reasons for his denial of what is  going on which may be due
> to wishful thinking or he just wants to  ignore what is going
> on to help protect his employment, who knows.  [...]

You would do well to *never* question my ethics in this regard,  sir.  You
are patently mistaken to even *suggest* there's guilt by  association.

> [...] He stated that he was told by a couple of the  major
> advertisers that they do not retain personal  information.

If you're going to quote me, at least do so truthfully and  contextually.
For others:

"However, from working with  numerous ad agencies because
of a few clients, I happen to  know that none of them
place very much significance on IP  address.  Data
collected by IP address is used for  non-user-specific
data sets, browsing habits, etc.   However, it is not
tied to particular users or even particular  computers. 
It is only mined for aggregates and regional  (which has
its own caveats) information."

See, what I  was referring to is about IP addresses, not cookies or  
personal
information.

I never said they don't retain personal  information.  I said that IP
addresses don't have much worth to them  as they don't directly to any one
individual and the data being collected  about any one of those individuals.

> [...] What he is over-looking  is that they do have the
> data and more if you have given them  additional
> information which is easily linked back to what you
>  have been doing. Also, that was only two of the many
> big players in  advertising that he referred to. [...]

No, I'm not overlooking that at  all.  Yes, the more info you give them, the
more they have  cataloged.  They connect the dots via the sites you use that
they have  their advertisements on and the glue for all of this is their use
of  cookies.  It is *not* however connected with IP address data, just to  
be
clear.

Aside: I never once said "two", "a couple", or made any  other mention to a
specific number of advertisers I've worked with or  discussed their data
collection and mining practices.  Those  quantities are *your* (erroneous)
attributions and I reject them  categorically.

> [...] He also misunderstood what I mentioned  about
> identifying his customer base's customer's locations. 
>  [I will not  disclose how this can be done, since it
> appears he  does not know how to.]

No, I didn't misunderstand.  I know exactly  what methods are currently
available for determining a customer's location,  assuming they don't just
give it to you.   The method currently  available involves determining
location based on the IP address they're  connecting with.

Aside: How do you like using Verizon to connect to  AOL?  Is that working 
for
you?

The issue with using that as an  absolute is that many people, especially
those on networks like AOL all  appear to connect from Virginia because
that's where all network traffic  for AOL users is routed through first.  
The
other issue is that there  may be only one or there may be hundreds of users
(in the case of a  business) that connect to the Internet through a single
outfacing IP  address.  So, while you can determine location, there's no 
good
way to  break up all the activity into distinct users, let alone even know
that  there are distinct users you need to break that traffic up for.
Datasets  based solely on IP address are simply too difficult to make any
sense of at  the individual level.

So, about the thing I supposedly misunderstood  and you somehow have some
sort of secret knowledge that you'll now lord  over me.  Let me refresh your
memory:

"Try helping  someone research a health issue - before
48 hours are up you  will likely receive emails  (spam)
promoting some product  or treatment for the ailments you
were researching.   Probably faster if you register at
some site while  researching. Try it!"

You failed to provide anything beyond a vague  claim that had no meat or
substance to it.

Pony up with something  that corroborates your position or drop it.  Based 
on
my professional  experience, I'm inclined to think you're either boldface
lying or you're  clinging to an urban legend someone told you is true and 
you
want so badly  to believe.  Prove me wrong.

> [...] BUT just delete all  cookies. [...]

No harm in deleting all cookies, except for all those  cookies that are used
to make your browsing experience online more  pleasant, customized, etc.

> [...] One is to use the "In Private" or  "Start
> Private Browsing" (available in the newer browsers)
>  style browsing judiciously!

First, it makes sense to understand what a  private browsing session 
actually
does.

It does *not* make your  interactions with websites any different.  A 
private
browsing session  doesn't make you or your information any more or less safe
online.   What a private browsing session does is "protects" you from others
using  your computer from seeing where you've been online during that  
private
browsing session.

If you *really* want to look into privacy,  you need to look into something
like the Tor  Project.

http://www.torproject.org/


> Avoid social  networking sites completely! [...]

I've already stated my position on  this.

> [...] You have no idea how all that information you
>  freely give out will be used in the future. [...]

And I'm sure that all  the posts of "Well, it's bedtime" or "I didn't wanna
get up this morning"  or "Yay, fruit for lunch!" or "My dog crapped in my
shoe" and so on is  *extremely* valuable bits of info to, ummm, *no one*.

Like I said  before:

"You don't have to post online every little  thing
you do in your daily life.  Not everything  you
put online is worth data mining, but is
contextually valuable to your social connections."

> [...] What  bothers me the most in this area; a friend
> or contact that has  detailed personal information about
> you can store data in their  address book and some social
> web sites ask for and encourage them  (you) to upload
> the address book with all the data in the address  book! 
> Phone numbers (published, unpublished, cell), address,
>  birthdays (birth dates), ignorant family members (small
> businesses  -  heaven forbid) may even include Social
> Security numbers or  even credit card data if they are
> privy to this information and  anything else they may
> have included in the 'notes' area of the  address book
> (health issues?). [When this information is  transmitted
> to the social web site do they transmit using any  form
> of security - I doubt it.] [...] We need laws to be
>  updated!

I agree that this is a VERY valid cause for  concern.

> On the cell phone front.  I believe some phones  allow
> you to disable the GPS tracking feature completely; but 
>  triangulation via cell towers can still be used if the
> phone is  on.

Agreed and can be of some concern.  However, the amount of  concern is 
likely
inversely proportional to the level of legality with  which you're 
conducting
yourself, I'm inclined to think.  I think the  ability for an individual to
use the GPS capabilities against another  individual is where the real
privacy issues  lie.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet  mailing  list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Sat Feb 13 16:48:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:48:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Feds push for tracking cell phones
In-Reply-To: <a04.110bc331.38a7d4fe@aol.com>
References: <a04.110bc331.38a7d4fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015401caad0f$7e3a11d0$7aae3570$@com>

> From: Jamsm at aol.com
> 
> Yes - we are entitled to have our own opinions - and
> mine is that most cookies that get stored on my 
> system have limited to no value to  me.

If that's what works for you, fantastic.  However, not everyone carries the
same level of concern as you do about all the little details.  Or, they
would prefer to cut out only the problems and keep the part that makes up
the solution.  My advice is for them.  Clearly you don't want or need any in
that regard.

> I have not intended to imply that you don't know your
> stuff - but saying that I am wearing a tin hat is going 
> too far and is the typical liberal attack  to attempt
> to discredit one. [...]

It was a reply with an intentional amount of ridiculousness to it in order
to properly address the comment you made that also contained a similar
amount of ridiculousness.  That you continue to try to label me with words
like liberal, sellout (indirectly with trying to create some sort of guilt
by association with ad agencies), etc. I find tiring.  You really don't know
me, sir.  You would do well to remember that and keep the labeling to
yourself.

Disagreement does not equal rejection.  Disagreement with *your* position
does not mean I'm a liberal.

> I did point out that you work with the ad business 
> therefore have motivations to discourage wholesale
> delete of cookies. Which you then use the time
> standard arguments not to while ignoring the hazards
> (below you seem to understand some of my reasoning.)

First, I do *not* work with the ad business.  I have clients that do.  I
don't give two hoots about the ad business.  I think they're a slimy bunch
of snakes and they can all fold and go out of business as far as I'm
concerned.  I have not and will not defend them.  I never once suggested
anyone should keep any cookies related to them on their computer.  Further,
I even outlined additional measures to deal with them to further minimize
the risks even beyond what you've suggested while still being able to take
advantage of cookies that make our experience online better, more
convenient, personalized, etc.

> So you prefer selective cookie deletion - [...]

No, actually, I think that's reactionary behavior.  It should only be used
as a last resort.  I prefer selective cookie acceptance, hence my mention of
denying third party cookies, the use of ad blocking software, etc.

> [...] how many users do you think know of or can use
> tools to selective delete, let alone have the time to
> wade through the hundreds of cookies one acquires to
> decide what cookie is safe or intrusive.  Some tools
> will aide you, but they are not complete in their
> efforts.  It is far easier to delete all cookies. 

Of course deleting all cookies is easier.  I wouldn't advocate doing it any
other way unless the individual doing it found some value in taking the
extra time.  Most people visit a handful of sites regularly that have some
element of trust in those sites and can deem the cookies from them to be
"safe".  Deleting the rest is probably a safe bet.

What I *do* advocate is not letting the bad cookies in to begin with.  It is
far easier to not even have to delete the cookies if you're denying all the
ones you'd be deleting anyway.  The hidden bonus in this approach is that
you aren't creating a single bit of trackable data for them during your
browsing unlike your approach which just creates isolated browsing episodes
with no common connection between them.

> Another point - how many people use customization at
> web sites that are saved to cookies - [...]

That's a non-starting discussion as users don't choose to do things on a
site with the forethought of it being saved into a cookie or not.  Users
choose to do things on sites based on what those actions will get them.
It's up to the developer of the site to implement those actions being saved
into cookies or some other means of storing.

> My statements have mostly been based on past experience
> and my knowledge of the Internet (much of which probably
> predates your touching a PC.)

Seeing as how I bought my first computer before there was any sort of
publicly available Internet, I highly doubt that.  You may go ahead and
continue with the assumptions if you really think they're working for you.

> You also have been doing a line by line chop and chew of
> selected statements I make vs looking at the overall
> statement/point I am trying to make on the general topic.

If you don't like the way I respond, don't participate in the conversation.

> What you seem to be missing - the IP address can give
> general information of where customers 'might' be. What
> part of the country etc. (not necessarily accurate but
> still useful.)  But, then it may be that the "ever so
> beloved cookie" is giving you so much more detailed
> data that the IP address is of no use to you. [...]

I'm not missing that at all.  I think maybe you're missing that I've been
agreeing with you on that topic the entire time.

> But if more people regularly (with high frequency or
> blocked them completely) destroyed cookies then you
> would have to go back to large granule data points
> like the IP address to get information.

Nope, plenty of people regularly block or destroy their cookies.  It
probably doesn't have as much impact as you might think because cookies
aren't the only way to track users.  And, to give you some of your own
medicine, I'm not going to tell you what those other ways are.  ;)

> Your statements below tend to imply you have a vested
> interest in people keeping cookies.

Black and white thinking will get you nowhere.  Of course I have a vested
interest, but not the one you're suggesting and not for the motives you're
assuming.  My interest in people keeping *some* cookies (not the tracking
ones) is for an improved experience online where cookies can facilitate that
improvement.

> Do I  want to trust your advice on the matter - I think
> not - as it appears you have a reason to want cookies
> retained and you work in that industry. It appears you
> have a biased opinion.  Why are you so defensive over
> cookies?

Perhaps because you're approaching cookies from an all or nothing mentality.
Cookies themselves are not bad.  Quite the opposite in fact.  They're
nothing more than a tool.  They have completely useful, legitimate uses.  To
say categorically they're evil is misguided, shortsighted, and ignorant.
You're creating mountains out of molehills.

I never asked anyone to trust my judgment on this.  I'm merely attempting to
provide a different perspective on the matter.  What others do with it is
their business.  I'm filling the information gap you're leaving by only
giving a very narrow amount of information based on your opinion.

> Some sites have gotten smart and store information on
> their site so when you login they can make sale pitches
> based on your previous purchases.

It might be difficult to believe, but many consumers find that information
extremely useful.

> So, don't  login until you are ready to buy your next
> item.  Otherwise, the prices you see might be based on
> what you paid for similar items.  (Yes, many sites don't
> do this.  But I bet some do. But can all of them do
> this? -  yes!)

Of course they can.  Most won't for a myriad of reasons; too expensive to
implement, too confusing to handle returns/exchanges/adjustments, don't want
to deal with consumer backlash when it's discovered, etc.  I wouldn't even
be surprised if it breaks laws in some jurisdictions (outside the US) or
even violates the agreements the merchant has with their credit card
processing service.

Amazon tried that a number of years ago based on your zip code.  It didn't
last very long until some consumer groups figured it out and called them out
on it.  

Differential pricing is an extremely complex subject with lots of pros and
cons, arguments for/against, and the consume caught in the middle and
generally upset about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/ramasastry.website.prices/

> Have you ever noticed that at times if you examine a
> product, then look into the details of a more expensive
> item, that the price of the lower priced one goes up the
> next time you view it; but if you delete the cookies
> then you get the lower price back again? Some of this
> may be due to 'localization' pricing but other times I
> believe it is the marketers trying to steer a buyer
> toward spending more money for various reasons.

I've never personally seen this in the 14 years I've been purchasing things
online.  I'm extremely price conscious and Internet savvy, do lots of
comparison shopping, etc. so I'd have spotted it.  I'd be curious to know
where you've seen this happening.

> I know this occurs at some sites; If you check on a
> price of an item at sites that have a web price and a 
> brick-n--mortar store price.  Try it at sites that have 
> brick-n-mortar and do not have web price matching - see
> what happens.  The new higher price will be applied to
> your web purchase price!  So blast those cookies - or
> you pay more!  Watch those prices carefully, see a
> sudden price jump - time to blast the cookies again!
> Oh gee - whiz,  the site just forgot what area I live
> in - too bad!

There are legitimate situations where the price you pay is different based
on your location.  It may cost more to do business for the specific item in
your location.

> Been to a few sites where deleting cookies did not help 
> - I suspect they used the IP address,  for a limited
> time, to help track you.  Hope, I am not giving you 
> ideas.  Now that I think about it- I should have
> refreshed the IP address to see if they forgot. [I wish
> I remembered what sites that was done on.]

I doubt it was based on IP.  More than likely it was based on something
else, again, which I won't disclose to you.

> [If you don't have cookies enabled, many web sites
> will not allow you to view  the page. I would prefer
> to have them disabled all the time.]

Very few sites will actually require cookies, especially if there's
ecommerce involved as it represents shutting out potential customers.  Most
business owners simply won't take that kind of risk.

> [...] The ad companies have destroyed the usefulness
> of cookies. [...]

No, the usefulness still exists and is being used all over the Internet,
despite the cry of the cookie curmudgeon.

> [...] Very  few sites will give you a list of
> cookies and state their purpose. [...]

Most users are not technically competent enough to make any sense of that
sort of information, let alone what a cookie actually is (does that come
with raisins or chocolate chips?).  It would benefit such a tiny part of any
sites audience to disclose that information.

> So you don't want people deleting cookies - explain
> why you don't want them to destroy "their" cookies?
> The cookies are on "their" PC not yours!  If someone
> advocates the deletion- so be it. The person that
> deletes cookies is gaining a little more privacy -
> with just a few clicks.

Then so be it.  I'm simply offering an alternate perspective.

> You do mention some good points and methods below how
> to block ads and cookies but they are not complete. 
> Many invasive cookies get past those features and tools. 
> I have over 12 devices connected to the web here.
> This system is the only one running AOL, reason - AOL 
> defeats 3rd party cookie blocking and most ad blocking
> tools for their select ad partners.  How many other
> tools (services) do this would be  an interesting study. 
> It appears, AOL even stores away its own copy of the
> cookies.  [Discovered by searching system.]

Unless you're using their built-in web browser (very poor choice), there's
nothing they can do to keep your browser of choice from blocking third party
cookies or from blocking ads.  It simply isn't within the realm of
possibility based purely on how these features work.  Suggesting it's even
possible for them to do this in a third party browser indicates to me that
you are not as knowledgeable about how things work as you claim.

> Another point that we have not discussed is the invasion
> and take over of one's PC when you install certain
> software when you use the default install.  I never
> recommend default installs - use advanced install so
> you can hopefully see what the program claims it will
> change.  Then once installed, review every setting that
> the program has configured itself for. [...]

Additionally, be wary of "extras" that come with the program you're
installing.  These extras, browser toolbars, search services, entirely
separate/additional programs, etc. all are bundled for the monetary benefit
they bring to the vendor of the software you were originally intending to
install.  Choose to not install the extras if you don't know what they are
or don't intend to use them.

As an example, one of the "extras" I run into the most often is the Ask.com
browser toolbar.  I don't use Internet Explorer as my primary browser and
use the Ask.com site even less.  So, installing the toolbar isn't going to
give me any benefit.  Further, there are situations where the Ask.com
toolbar (and the hidden service it installs on your computer) can actually
be harmful to your computer.  [I serviced a laptop that would regularly and
unpredictably become unable to boot because the boot.ini file would
disappear without warning or reason.  Removing the toolbar and the hidden
service it installed cause the problem to go away.]

> [...] A sample of one that does extreme take over is
> iPod related.  Apple's software will go so far as to
> take over the CD/DVD drive and prevent you from burning
> your own audio discs.  [I recently experienced  this. 
> I installed the Apple software for my son's iPod, but
> when I went to use Windows Media Player to create an
> audio CD of MY personal audio files, I was blocked
> until I scrubbed the Apple garbage off my system and I
> reinstalled the device driver.]

I'm going to go ahead and suggest that your issue with burning a CD had far
less to do with some sort of malevolent desire on Apple's part to keep you
from burning a CD and more to do with general device driver issues caused by
installing their software.  I know *countless* people that have the same
software installed and are not only able to burn all manner of audio CDs,
**they are even able to do so from directly within iTunes**.  I've burned
lots of audio CDs from iTunes of my own audio files that were not purchased
through iTunes.  Another point that I think illustrates why your argument is
false is that all of Apple's music became DRM-free as of January of last
year.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Sat Feb 13 17:33:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:33:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Speaking of Privacy Issues
Message-ID: <016601caad15$c7352db0$559f8910$@com>

Since we're on the topic of privacy, here's a relevant bit of news about a
new service from Google that seems to have already caused a number of issues
right out of the gate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/technology/internet/13google.html?ref=busi
ness

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Feb 15 10:25:22 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:25:22 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
Message-ID: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100215/9e201f35/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: minithologo.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 3200 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100215/9e201f35/attachment.jpg 

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 11:25:11 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:25:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <829982.38092.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I have recently also read that chocolate also prevents Altheimer's. As does consumption of copious amounts of green tea and turmeric.

More good reasons to eat dark chocolate, green tea, and Indian food with a guilt-free attitude. Note that I said dark chocolate. The lighter stuff is filled with sugar, which definitely does not reduce one's cardiometabolic risk. 

I'm just disappointed that you didn't sign off as, "Bob 'Chocoholic' Brown," though.

Holly





________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:25:22 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .


 
Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke
mortality risk

February 12, 2010 | Susan Jeffrey 
Adapted from Medscape Medical News?a professional news service
of WebMD
  
Hamilton, ON - Good news for Valentine's
retailers the world over: a new systematic review from Canadian
researchers suggests higher chocolate consumption may be associated
with a lower risk for incident stroke and stroke-related mortality [1]. 
Previous studies, most of them
epidemiological, have shown varying effects of chocolate consumption on
the risk for cardiovascular disease, but "less is known about the risk
of stroke in association with flavonoid intake," the researchers, with
first author Sarah Sahib (McMaster University, Hamilton, ON),
write. 
Results of two prospective cohort studies
showed, respectively, a 22% reduction in stroke risk for those who had
one serving of chocolate per week and a 46% reduction in stroke
mortality from weekly consumption of flavonoids in 50 g of chocolate vs
no consumption. A third study showed no association between chocolate
intake and stroke or death. 
However, the number of studies looking at this
relationship was small, senior author Dr Gustavo Saposnik (St Michael's Hospital and the University of Toronto, ON) said in an
interview. "We need more prospective studies that specifically identify
the type of chocolate and the amount, including the amount of
flavonoids included in the composition of the chocolate, to make more
valid conclusions," he said.
The results are published online February 17,
2010 in advance of their planned presentation at the upcoming American
Academy of Neurology 2010Annual Meeting in April. 
Varying effects
 
Sahib et al reviewed studies published between
2001 and 2009, using search terms including flavonoids, flavanols, isoflavones, and anthocyanidins, as well as stroke and mortality. 
"We found 88 publications, among them three
prospective studies, and another retrospective study providing some
information on the effect of chocolate consumption on the incident risk
of stroke," Saposnik said. "Two of these studies show a reduction in
the incident risk of stroke, and the other two didn't show any
substantial difference." 
They conclude that further prospective studies
are needed "to assess whether the benefit of chocolate-based flavonoid
consumption truly lowers stroke risk or whether the apparent benefit is
biased by a healthy-user effect." 
Investigation a challenge
 
However, while more data on this link would be
helpful, Saposnik pointed to several challenges to doing these kinds of
studies. First, it is important to document the actual content of
flavonoids or other substances thought to be active in the chocolate
being consumed. 
"There are some studies that compare the
content of flavonoids for different food elements and antioxidant
capacity," he said. Dark chocolate has the highest flavonoids and
procyanidins, which have been associated with lower cardiovascular
risk, and dark chocolate also has the highest antioxidant capacity.
Still, there are varying types of chocolate,
and the amounts that are required to affect stroke risk may bring a
load of sugar and fats that may work counter to the beneficial effects.
"Fifty grams of chocolate per day is a significant amount," he notes. 
Finally, large longitudinal studies are also
expensive, and funding for them scarce, which may explain why much of
the evidence is coming from epidemiologic studies, he added. One
alternative may be to conduct smaller studies, looking the effects of
consuming controlled amounts of chocolate on some intermediate
biomarker of stroke risk. 
The study received no commercial
support. The authors have no disclosures.
   
The complete contents of Medscape Medical News, a professional news
service of WebMD, can be found at www.medscape.com, a website for medical
professionals.
  
Source 
	1. Sahib S, Saposnik G, et
al. American Academy of Neurology 2010 Annual Meeting; April 10-17.
2010; Toronto, ON. Published online February 17, 2009. 
 
Related links 
	* Eating dark chocolate reduces CRP
[Prevention > Prevention; Sep 29, 2008]
 
	* A mug
of hot cocoa can improve artery health in patients with type 2 diabetes
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; May 27, 2008]
 
	* Dark
chocolate with added plant sterols reduces cholesterol and
blood-pressure levels
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Apr 23, 2008]
 
	* Flavonoid-rich chocolate improves vasodilation, reduces platelet adhesion
[Prevention > Prevention; Nov 23, 2007]
 
	* A
piece of dark chocolate a day keeps the doctor away
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Jul 03, 2007]
 

Copyright ?1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All
rights reserved.
Privacy
policy
info at theheart.org 


      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 11:56:01 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:56:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:

	* Were all study participants given the same food diet throughout the study?
	* Were all study participants of the same general body shape, body mass, age?
	* Did all study participants lead approximately the same lifestyle?
	* Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and were exposed to similar environments?
In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies cited in the report have such wildly varying output results, including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.

I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:25:22 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .


 
Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke
mortality risk

February 12, 2010 | Susan Jeffrey 
Adapted from Medscape Medical News?a professional news service
of WebMD
  
Hamilton, ON - Good news for Valentine's
retailers the world over: a new systematic review from Canadian
researchers suggests higher chocolate consumption may be associated
with a lower risk for incident stroke and stroke-related mortality [1]. 
Previous studies, most of them
epidemiological, have shown varying effects of chocolate consumption on
the risk for cardiovascular disease, but "less is known about the risk
of stroke in association with flavonoid intake," the researchers, with
first author Sarah Sahib (McMaster University, Hamilton, ON),
write. 
Results of two prospective cohort studies
showed, respectively, a 22% reduction in stroke risk for those who had
one serving of chocolate per week and a 46% reduction in stroke
mortality from weekly consumption of flavonoids in 50 g of chocolate vs
no consumption. A third study showed no association between chocolate
intake and stroke or death. 
However, the number of studies looking at this
relationship was small, senior author Dr Gustavo Saposnik (St Michael's Hospital and the University of Toronto, ON) said in an
interview. "We need more prospective studies that specifically identify
the type of chocolate and the amount, including the amount of
flavonoids included in the composition of the chocolate, to make more
valid conclusions," he said.
The results are published online February 17,
2010 in advance of their planned presentation at the upcoming American
Academy of Neurology 2010Annual Meeting in April. 
Varying effects
 
Sahib et al reviewed studies published between
2001 and 2009, using search terms including flavonoids, flavanols, isoflavones, and anthocyanidins, as well as stroke and mortality. 
"We found 88 publications, among them three
prospective studies, and another retrospective study providing some
information on the effect of chocolate consumption on the incident risk
of stroke," Saposnik said. "Two of these studies show a reduction in
the incident risk of stroke, and the other two didn't show any
substantial difference." 
They conclude that further prospective studies
are needed "to assess whether the benefit of chocolate-based flavonoid
consumption truly lowers stroke risk or whether the apparent benefit is
biased by a healthy-user effect." 
Investigation a challenge
 
However, while more data on this link would be
helpful, Saposnik pointed to several challenges to doing these kinds of
studies. First, it is important to document the actual content of
flavonoids or other substances thought to be active in the chocolate
being consumed. 
"There are some studies that compare the
content of flavonoids for different food elements and antioxidant
capacity," he said. Dark chocolate has the highest flavonoids and
procyanidins, which have been associated with lower cardiovascular
risk, and dark chocolate also has the highest antioxidant capacity.
Still, there are varying types of chocolate,
and the amounts that are required to affect stroke risk may bring a
load of sugar and fats that may work counter to the beneficial effects.
"Fifty grams of chocolate per day is a significant amount," he notes. 
Finally, large longitudinal studies are also
expensive, and funding for them scarce, which may explain why much of
the evidence is coming from epidemiologic studies, he added. One
alternative may be to conduct smaller studies, looking the effects of
consuming controlled amounts of chocolate on some intermediate
biomarker of stroke risk. 
The study received no commercial
support. The authors have no disclosures.
   
The complete contents of Medscape Medical News, a professional news
service of WebMD, can be found at www.medscape.com, a website for medical
professionals.
  
Source 
	1. Sahib S, Saposnik G, et
al. American Academy of Neurology 2010 Annual Meeting; April 10-17.
2010; Toronto, ON. Published online February 17, 2009. 
 
Related links 
	* Eating dark chocolate reduces CRP
[Prevention > Prevention; Sep 29, 2008]
 
	* A mug
of hot cocoa can improve artery health in patients with type 2 diabetes
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; May 27, 2008]
 
	* Dark
chocolate with added plant sterols reduces cholesterol and
blood-pressure levels
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Apr 23, 2008]
 
	* Flavonoid-rich chocolate improves vasodilation, reduces platelet adhesion
[Prevention > Prevention; Nov 23, 2007]
 
	* A
piece of dark chocolate a day keeps the doctor away
[Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Jul 03, 2007]
 

Copyright ?1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All
rights reserved.
Privacy
policy
info at theheart.org 


      

From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Feb 15 12:13:16 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:13:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100215/b08c98db/attachment.html 

From phoenixacup at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 14:50:02 2010
From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:50:02 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>

Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate with no
cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and *anthocyanidins
*" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has almost
none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a significant
amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you limit
what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause you to
gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is one reason
the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for chocolate to
be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
parts.

Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

>  Spoil sport ! ! !
>
> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
>
> 	* Were all study participants given the same food diet throughout the study?
> 	* Were all study participants of the same general body shape, body mass, age?
> 	* Did all study participants lead approximately the same lifestyle?
> 	* Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and were exposed to similar environments?
> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies cited in the report have such wildly varying output results, including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
>
> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>


-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 16:41:56 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:41:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.

That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.

Holly




________________________________
From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate with no
cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and *anthocyanidins
*" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has almost
none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a significant
amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you limit
what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause you to
gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is one reason
the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for chocolate to
be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
parts.

Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com> wrote:

>  Spoil sport ! ! !
>
> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>
> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
>
>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet throughout the study?
>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape, body mass, age?
>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same lifestyle?
>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and were exposed to similar environments?
> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies cited in the report have such wildly varying output results, including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
>
> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>


-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Feb 15 16:54:03 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:54:03 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>

Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the  
allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed  
food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,  
corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging  
plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.

Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from  
your garden better check them for slugs......

Katie
Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.


On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
>
> That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate  
> with no
> cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and  
> *anthocyanidins
> *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has  
> almost
> none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a  
> significant
> amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you  
> limit
> what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause  
> you to
> gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is  
> one reason
> the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for  
> chocolate to
> be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> parts.
>
> Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>  
> wrote:
>
>>  Spoil sport ! ! !
>>
>> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the  
>> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these  
>> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't  
>> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
>>
>>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet  
>> throughout the study?
>>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,  
>> body mass, age?
>>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same  
>> lifestyle?
>>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic  
>> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and  
>> were exposed to similar environments?
>> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept  
>> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of  
>> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be  
>> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies  
>> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,  
>> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate  
>> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in  
>> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
>>
>> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could  
>> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke  
>> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental  
>> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could  
>> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to  
>> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or  
>> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking  
>> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen  
>> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jim at benchmarkinspections.com  Mon Feb 15 17:23:04 2010
From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:23:04 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>

What's wrong with cockroach parts? 

- Jim Katen

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:54 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the  
allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed  
food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,  
corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging  
plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.

Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from  
your garden better check them for slugs......

Katie
Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.


On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
>
> That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate  
> with no
> cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and  
> *anthocyanidins
> *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has  
> almost
> none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a  
> significant
> amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you  
> limit
> what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause  
> you to
> gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is  
> one reason
> the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for  
> chocolate to
> be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> parts.
>
> Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>  
> wrote:
>
>>  Spoil sport ! ! !
>>
>> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the  
>> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these  
>> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't  
>> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
>>
>>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet  
>> throughout the study?
>>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,  
>> body mass, age?
>>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same  
>> lifestyle?
>>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic  
>> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and  
>> were exposed to similar environments?
>> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept  
>> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of  
>> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be  
>> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies  
>> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,  
>> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate  
>> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in  
>> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
>>
>> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could  
>> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke  
>> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental  
>> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could  
>> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to  
>> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or  
>> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking  
>> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen  
>> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 15 17:51:59 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:51:59 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <276531BD-0132-4155-AB4D-249032D0BC7E@teleport.com>

Oooo! Oooo!
I VOLUNTEER for the additional research!!! Where do I sign up?
Walt

On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:25 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

>
> Chocolate linked to lower stroke and stroke mortality risk
>
> February 12, 2010 | Susan Jeffrey
> Adapted from Medscape Medical News?a professional news service of  
> WebMD
> Hamilton, ON - Good news for Valentine's retailers the world over:  
> a new systematic review from Canadian researchers suggests higher  
> chocolate consumption may be associated with a lower risk for  
> incident stroke and stroke-related mortality [1].
>
> Previous studies, most of them epidemiological, have shown varying  
> effects of chocolate consumption on the risk for cardiovascular  
> disease, but "less is known about the risk of stroke in association  
> with flavonoid intake," the researchers, with first author Sarah  
> Sahib (McMaster University, Hamilton, ON), write.
>
> Results of two prospective cohort studies showed, respectively, a  
> 22% reduction in stroke risk for those who had one serving of  
> chocolate per week and a 46% reduction in stroke mortality from  
> weekly consumption of flavonoids in 50 g of chocolate vs no  
> consumption. A third study showed no association between chocolate  
> intake and stroke or death.
>
> However, the number of studies looking at this relationship was  
> small, senior author Dr Gustavo Saposnik (St Michael's Hospital and  
> the University of Toronto, ON) said in an interview. "We need more  
> prospective studies that specifically identify the type of  
> chocolate and the amount, including the amount of flavonoids  
> included in the composition of the chocolate, to make more valid  
> conclusions," he said.
>
> The results are published online February 17, 2010 in advance of  
> their planned presentation at the upcoming American Academy of  
> Neurology 2010 Annual Meeting in April.
>
>
> Varying effects
> Sahib et al reviewed studies published between 2001 and 2009, using  
> search terms including flavonoids, flavanols, isoflavones, and  
> anthocyanidins, as well as stroke and mortality.
>
> "We found 88 publications, among them three prospective studies,  
> and another retrospective study providing some information on the  
> effect of chocolate consumption on the incident risk of stroke,"  
> Saposnik said. "Two of these studies show a reduction in the  
> incident risk of stroke, and the other two didn't show any  
> substantial difference."
>
> They conclude that further prospective studies are needed "to  
> assess whether the benefit of chocolate-based flavonoid consumption  
> truly lowers stroke risk or whether the apparent benefit is biased  
> by a healthy-user effect."
>
>
> Investigation a challenge
> However, while more data on this link would be helpful, Saposnik  
> pointed to several challenges to doing these kinds of studies.  
> First, it is important to document the actual content of flavonoids  
> or other substances thought to be active in the chocolate being  
> consumed.
>
> "There are some studies that compare the content of flavonoids for  
> different food elements and antioxidant capacity," he said. Dark  
> chocolate has the highest flavonoids and procyanidins, which have  
> been associated with lower cardiovascular risk, and dark chocolate  
> also has the highest antioxidant capacity.
>
> Still, there are varying types of chocolate, and the amounts that  
> are required to affect stroke risk may bring a load of sugar and  
> fats that may work counter to the beneficial effects. "Fifty grams  
> of chocolate per day is a significant amount," he notes.
>
> Finally, large longitudinal studies are also expensive, and funding  
> for them scarce, which may explain why much of the evidence is  
> coming from epidemiologic studies, he added. One alternative may be  
> to conduct smaller studies, looking the effects of consuming  
> controlled amounts of chocolate on some intermediate biomarker of  
> stroke risk.
>
> The study received no commercial support. The authors have no  
> disclosures.
>
> The complete contents of Medscape Medical News, a professional news  
> service of WebMD, can be found at www.medscape.com, a website for  
> medical professionals.
> Source
> Sahib S, Saposnik G, et al. American Academy of Neurology 2010  
> Annual Meeting; April 10-17. 2010; Toronto, ON. Published online  
> February 17, 2009.
>
> Related links
> Eating dark chocolate reduces CRP
> [Prevention > Prevention; Sep 29, 2008]
> A mug of hot cocoa can improve artery health in patients with type  
> 2 diabetes
> [Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; May 27, 2008]
> Dark chocolate with added plant sterols reduces cholesterol and  
> blood-pressure levels
> [Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Apr 23, 2008]
> Flavonoid-rich chocolate improves vasodilation, reduces platelet  
> adhesion
> [Prevention > Prevention; Nov 23, 2007]
> A piece of dark chocolate a day keeps the doctor away
> [Lipid/Metabolic > Lipid/Metabolic; Jul 03, 2007]
>
> <minithologo.jpg>
> Copyright ?1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved.
> Privacy policy
> info at theheart.org
> <minithologo.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 15 18:00:15 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:00:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4E459C01-4C94-4C52-8FD1-874F468BCE8C@teleport.com>

Notice, chocolate manufacturers are only "allowed a limit" of  
cockroach parts. We may assume some conscientious producers have very  
few cockroach parts at all. Yet others may have a strict security- 
card system for visiting cockroaches. Some opportunist, of course,  
will eventually take a page from the Texas tourist-stop entrepreneurs  
and start offering "chocolate-coated cockroaches,"  under the  
plausible legal defense that they are not cockroach PARTS, but the  
entire critter. I foresee a thriving niche market.
Walt "If you can't beat 'em, eat 'em" Wentz
On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
>
> That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate  
> with no
> cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and  
> *anthocyanidins
> *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has  
> almost
> none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a  
> significant
> amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you  
> limit
> what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause  
> you to
> gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is  
> one reason
> the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for  
> chocolate to
> be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> parts.
>
> Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>  
> wrote:
>
>>  Spoil sport ! ! !
>>
>> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the  
>> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these  
>> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't  
>> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
>>
>>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet  
>> throughout the study?
>>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,  
>> body mass, age?
>>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same  
>> lifestyle?
>>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic  
>> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and  
>> were exposed to similar environments?
>> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept  
>> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of  
>> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be  
>> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies  
>> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,  
>> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate  
>> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in  
>> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
>>
>> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could  
>> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke  
>> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental  
>> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could  
>> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to  
>> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or  
>> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking  
>> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen  
>> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Feb 15 18:54:17 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:54:17 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
	<A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>
Message-ID: <047601caaeb3$55458980$ffd09c80$@com>

Mmmmmm, protein.....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Jim Katen
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:23 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> 
> What's wrong with cockroach parts?
> 
> - Jim Katen
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:54 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> 
> Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the
> allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed
> food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,
> corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging
> plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.
> 
> Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from
> your garden better check them for slugs......
> 
> Katie
> Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.
> 
> 
> On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:
> 
> > Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
> >
> > That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
> >
> > Holly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> >
> > Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate
> > with no
> > cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and
> > *anthocyanidins
> > *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa
> (alkaline
> > processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has
> > almost
> > none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a
> > significant
> > amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you
> > limit
> > what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause
> > you to
> > gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is
> > one reason
> > the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for
> > chocolate to
> > be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to
> cockroach
> > parts.
> >
> > Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>  Spoil sport ! ! !
> >>
> >> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >>
> >> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the
> >> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these
> >> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't
> >> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
> >>
> >>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet
> >> throughout the study?
> >>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,
> >> body mass, age?
> >>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same
> >> lifestyle?
> >>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic
> >> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and
> >> were exposed to similar environments?
> >> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept
> >> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of
> >> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be
> >> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies
> >> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,
> >> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate
> >> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in
> >> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
> >>
> >> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could
> >> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke
> >> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental
> >> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could
> >> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to
> >> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or
> >> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking
> >> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen
> >> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
> >>
> >>
> >> Allen Warren
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date:
> 02/14/10 23:35:00



From Jamsm at aol.com  Tue Feb 16 05:26:45 2010
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:26:45 EST
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
Message-ID: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>

On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar frosted) 
in my box of Frosted  Flakes.

Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating 
small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.; they sent me a 
thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around $50 of 
discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It was over 15 
years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!  
 
Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food  products were 
sued for foreign material in foods.
I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out. 
 
Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
 
The Grouch

From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Feb 16 06:07:33 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:07:33 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <581189CA-88C8-432E-9258-5D00D206B1BB@verizon.net>

I nominate this post for the prize winner of the year.
My dad found a live roach in a salad at a restaurant once but I think  
a whole sugar frosted rat sends more shivers down my spine. Yikes.

Katie

On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Feb 16 09:32:19 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:32:19 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<581189CA-88C8-432E-9258-5D00D206B1BB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <D04432175233490483ADEC0C705EF834@gerianehzkfhvy>

Eek.

On the other side of things, I once found a diamond ring in my spinach salad! The waiter knew exactly who it belonged to: the person who had been washing & prepping the salad greens. She came out and thanked me herself, as it had been her grandmother's ring...


Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .


>I nominate this post for the prize winner of the year.
> My dad found a live roach in a salad at a restaurant once but I think  
> a whole sugar frosted rat sends more shivers down my spine. Yikes.
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
>> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
>> frosted)
>> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>>
>> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
>> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
>> they sent me a
>> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
>> $50 of
>> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
>> was over 15
>> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>>
>> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
>> products were
>> sued for foreign material in foods.
>> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>>
>> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>>
>> The Grouch
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 09:38:54 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:38:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <D04432175233490483ADEC0C705EF834@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<581189CA-88C8-432E-9258-5D00D206B1BB@verizon.net>
	<D04432175233490483ADEC0C705EF834@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA277@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Geri...maybe we better not go out for lunch today!!

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:32 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Eek.

On the other side of things, I once found a diamond ring in my spinach salad! The waiter knew exactly who it belonged to: the person who had been washing & prepping the salad greens. She came out and thanked me herself, as it had been her grandmother's ring...


Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .


>I nominate this post for the prize winner of the year.
> My dad found a live roach in a salad at a restaurant once but I think  
> a whole sugar frosted rat sends more shivers down my spine. Yikes.
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
>> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
>> frosted)
>> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>>
>> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
>> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
>> they sent me a
>> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
>> $50 of
>> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
>> was over 15
>> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>>
>> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
>> products were
>> sued for foreign material in foods.
>> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>>
>> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>>
>> The Grouch
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From obrzl at verizon.net  Tue Feb 16 10:00:10 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:00:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <775512.12225.qm@web84205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Golly, is there anything de-regulated free markets can't do?

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Jamsm at aol.com <Jamsm at aol.com> wrote:


From: Jamsm at aol.com <Jamsm at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 1:26 PM


On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
In the early 80s,? I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar frosted) 
in my box of Frosted? Flakes.

Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.? Had? been eating 
small black pieces all the while.? Sent the thing to the? Mfg.; they sent me a 
thank you note for sending it to them.? They also sent? me around $50 of 
discount coupons for their cereals.? Those? went in the trash.? It was over 15 
years before I bought another box? of dry cereal.? Yuck!? 

Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food? products were 
sued for foreign material in foods.
I missed out on the? millions of that were handed out. 

Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...

The Grouch
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb 16 10:03:21 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:03:21 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
Message-ID: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100216/637201c4/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: livescience_reg_hd_logo.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 1573 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100216/637201c4/attachment.gif 

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 10:10:44 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:10:44 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I feel better already.

--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:03 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Well, the research is in:  conservatives are happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!! However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference, especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!

bob "I really care" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[cid:image001.gif at 01CAAEF0.4D5A7B80]
  Health
Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

By Jeanna Bryner<http://www.livescience.com/php/contactus/author.php?r=jbr>, Senior Writer

posted: 07 May 2008 08:20 am ET

Individuals with conservative ideologies are happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason: Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities.

Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers<http://www.livescience.com/health/080310-liberal-seniors.html>, the new study found. Conservatives also scored highest on measures of rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain away, inequalities.

The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less about how equal people are."

To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status in society<http://www.livescience.com/health/071220-cultural-elite.html> based on hard work and good performance. In that way, one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be perceived as totally fair and justified.

If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier and John Jost of New York University. They conducted a U.S.-centric survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the findings.

"Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light."

The results support and further explain a Pew Research Center survey<http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/060315_happiness_pew.html> from 2006, in which 47 percent of conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such cheer.

The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as well.

"There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write. "Research suggests that highly egalitarian women<http://www.livescience.com/health/070711_woman_boss.html> are less happy in their marriages compared with their more traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by disparities in domestic labor."

The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation.

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 1573 bytes
Desc: image001.gif
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100216/088166fb/attachment.gif 

From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb 16 10:21:28 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:21:28 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100216/36b41b60/attachment.html 

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Feb 16 10:28:33 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:28:33 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com><581189CA-88C8-432E-9258-5D00D206B1BB@verizon.net><D04432175233490483ADEC0C705EF834@gerianehzkfhvy>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA277@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <EED3790EE8814D1BB5362EF0D3672151@gerianehzkfhvy>

What? And take away our chance to find another diamond?  ;)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .


> Geri...maybe we better not go out for lunch today!!
> 
> --Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:32 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> 
> Eek.
> 
> On the other side of things, I once found a diamond ring in my spinach salad! The waiter knew exactly who it belonged to: the person who had been washing & prepping the salad greens. She came out and thanked me herself, as it had been her grandmother's ring...
> 
> 
> Geri
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> 
> 
>>I nominate this post for the prize winner of the year.
>> My dad found a live roach in a salad at a restaurant once but I think  
>> a whole sugar frosted rat sends more shivers down my spine. Yikes.
>> 
>> Katie
>> 
>> On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
>>> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
>>> frosted)
>>> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>>>
>>> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
>>> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
>>> they sent me a
>>> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
>>> $50 of
>>> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
>>> was over 15
>>> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>>>
>>> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
>>> products were
>>> sued for foreign material in foods.
>>> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>>>
>>> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>>>
>>> The Grouch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 10:28:37 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:28:37 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA408@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Much...

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:21 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Yes, Mike, but are you happier??

bob "sneaking up on happiness" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 2/16/2010 10:10 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:

I feel better already.



--Mike



________________________________

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com<mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com> [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:03 AM

To: Grovenet

Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals



Well, the research is in:  conservatives are happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!! However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference, especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!



bob "I really care" browning

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 10:31:08 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:31:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <350032.74625.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

All things being equal, if Mike does say he's happier, good for him.  But really, as I don't know Mike, why should I care?  ;-)  ;-)

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:21:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Yes, Mike, but are you happier??

bob "sneaking up on happiness" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 2/16/2010 10:10 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: 
I feel better already.
>
>--Mike
>
>________________________________
>From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:03 AM
>To: Grovenet
>Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>
>Well, the research is in:  conservatives are happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!! However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference, especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!
>
>bob "I really care" browning
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



      

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 10:32:18 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:32:18 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <350032.74625.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
	<350032.74625.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA420@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

You shouldn't.  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:31 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

All things being equal, if Mike does say he's happier, good for him.  But really, as I don't know Mike, why should I care?  ;-)  ;-)

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:21:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Yes, Mike, but are you happier??

bob "sneaking up on happiness" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 2/16/2010 10:10 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: 
I feel better already.
>
>--Mike
>
>________________________________
>From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:03 AM
>To: Grovenet
>Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>
>Well, the research is in:  conservatives are happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!! However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference, especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!
>
>bob "I really care" browning
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 10:31:18 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:31:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Just goes to show ya:  Timing is everything in this life!

Holly




________________________________
From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar frosted) 
in my box of Frosted  Flakes.

Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating 
small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.; they sent me a 
thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around $50 of 
discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It was over 15 
years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!  

Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food  products were 
sued for foreign material in foods.
I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out. 

Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...

The Grouch
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 10:35:45 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:35:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA420@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA383@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4B7AE228.6050501@jurislex.com>
	<350032.74625.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA420@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <793933.8732.qm@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Mike.  There's only so much caring I can do in one day and I don't want to waste it, though part of me doesn't care if I do waste it.  ;-)

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:32:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

You shouldn't.  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Allen Warren
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:31 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

All things being equal, if Mike does say he's happier, good for him.  But really, as I don't know Mike, why should I care?  ;-)  ;-)


Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:21:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Yes, Mike, but are you happier??

bob "sneaking up on happiness" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 2/16/2010 10:10 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: 
I feel better already.
>
>--Mike
>
>________________________________
>From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:03 AM
>To: Grovenet
>Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>
>Well, the research is in:  conservatives are happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!! However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference, especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!
>
>bob "I really care" browning
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 10:53:24 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:53:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

One has to wonder if the actual research was conducted after Dubya finally left office or before.

But, even if the research was conducted during Obama's reign, there's still a heck of a lot for so-called Liberals (I prefer to think of us as "Progressives") to be unhappy about. Things that we find distressing that Conservatives sometimes don't seem to concern themselves that much about. Things like climate change, hunger, poverty, war, the inordinate number of our citizens who sitting in our prisons without rehabilitation efforts being made, racial inequality, salary inequalities for women, spousal abuse, child abuse, uncontrolled corporate corruption and greed, lack of support for education, health care, declining economic conditions, the list goes on and on. If you prefer to not see things changing very much along these lines, then perhaps it's a lot easier to be "happy". Unless, of course, these issues hit you personally. Then your perspective might start to change a bit. 

I was a Republican until I had babies in my late 20s. Then, suddenly, I saw how vulnerable I was. I saw that this man I was married to could leave me and then I wouldn't be so "self sufficient" anymore. Then, I might need public assistance to help me raise my kids alone. Having kids changed my perspective in a very big way. Am I happier as a Democrat? "You betcha!" -- as Ms. Palin would say. But, I'm also a lot more cognizant of injustices in our country and dissatisfied with the way things are than I was before I came across from the other side. 

Holly




________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:03:21 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Well, the research is in:  conservatives are
happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic
inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except
possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it
make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!!
However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that
only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the
difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference,
especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!

bob "I really care" browning 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 
 
>  Health 
>Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>By Jeanna
>Bryner, Senior Writer
>posted: 07 May 2008 08:20 am ET
>Individuals with conservative ideologies are
>happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason:
>Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities. 
>>Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing
>individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers,
>
>the new study found. Conservatives also scored highest on measures of
>rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain
>away, inequalities. 
>>The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not
>really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life
>than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less
>about how equal people are." 
>>To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of
>meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status
>
>in society based on hard work and good performance. In that way,
>one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be
>perceived as totally fair and justified. 
>>If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left
>frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier
>and John Jost of New York University. They conducted a U.S.-centric
>survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the
>findings. 
>>"Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological
>toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the
>June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently
>because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them
>frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light." 
>>The results support and further explain a Pew
>
>Research Center survey from 2006, in which 47 percent of
>conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very
>happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such
>cheer. 
>>The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as
>well. 
>>"There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here
>are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write.
>"Research suggests that highly egalitarian
>
>women are less happy in their marriages compared with their more
>traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by
>disparities in domestic labor." 
>>The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation. 



      

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 10:56:35 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:56:35 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA509@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Holly for president!  Or any public office!!

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:53 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

One has to wonder if the actual research was conducted after Dubya finally left office or before.

But, even if the research was conducted during Obama's reign, there's still a heck of a lot for so-called Liberals (I prefer to think of us as "Progressives") to be unhappy about. Things that we find distressing that Conservatives sometimes don't seem to concern themselves that much about. Things like climate change, hunger, poverty, war, the inordinate number of our citizens who sitting in our prisons without rehabilitation efforts being made, racial inequality, salary inequalities for women, spousal abuse, child abuse, uncontrolled corporate corruption and greed, lack of support for education, health care, declining economic conditions, the list goes on and on. If you prefer to not see things changing very much along these lines, then perhaps it's a lot easier to be "happy". Unless, of course, these issues hit you personally. Then your perspective might start to change a bit. 

I was a Republican until I had babies in my late 20s. Then, suddenly, I saw how vulnerable I was. I saw that this man I was married to could leave me and then I wouldn't be so "self sufficient" anymore. Then, I might need public assistance to help me raise my kids alone. Having kids changed my perspective in a very big way. Am I happier as a Democrat? "You betcha!" -- as Ms. Palin would say. But, I'm also a lot more cognizant of injustices in our country and dissatisfied with the way things are than I was before I came across from the other side. 

Holly




________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:03:21 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Well, the research is in:  conservatives are
happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic
inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except
possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it
make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!!
However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that
only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the
difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference,
especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!

bob "I really care" browning 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 
 
>  Health 
>Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>By Jeanna
>Bryner, Senior Writer
>posted: 07 May 2008 08:20 am ET
>Individuals with conservative ideologies are
>happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason:
>Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities. 
>>Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing
>individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers,
>
>the new study found. Conservatives also scored highest on measures of
>rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain
>away, inequalities. 
>>The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not
>really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life
>than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less
>about how equal people are." 
>>To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of
>meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status
>
>in society based on hard work and good performance. In that way,
>one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be
>perceived as totally fair and justified. 
>>If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left
>frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier
>and John Jost of New York University. They conducted a U.S.-centric
>survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the
>findings. 
>>"Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological
>toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the
>June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently
>because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them
>frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light." 
>>The results support and further explain a Pew
>
>Research Center survey from 2006, in which 47 percent of
>conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very
>happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such
>cheer. 
>>The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as
>well. 
>>"There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here
>are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write.
>"Research suggests that highly egalitarian
>
>women are less happy in their marriages compared with their more
>traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by
>disparities in domestic labor." 
>>The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation. 



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 16 11:14:35 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:14:35 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E77554E3-907A-4AAB-AA4C-42CAF5EAA5FE@teleport.com>

The sugar frosting was a nice touch...

On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From phoenixacup at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 11:20:34 2010
From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:20:34 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <d6eeab3d1002161120g78358c7n154fbaa06f014226@mail.gmail.com>

That may be true, but the allowable % is the *maximum*.  Chocolate, which
grows in a tropical climate (or, you might say, a cockroach-rich
environment) is more likely to be at the maximum % than, say, oatmeal, which
grows in a temperate climate or peanuts, which grow in a warm, but not
usually tropical environment.

And, in Europe, the allowable % is much less.  That's not to say that you
should burn up lots of oil by eating only European chocolate, just to point
out that what's allowable is a political decision (and in this country,
whoever has the gold, makes the rules).

Jane B-P

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net> wrote:

> Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the
> allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed
> food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,
> corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging
> plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.
>
> Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from
> your garden better check them for slugs......
>
> Katie
> Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:
>
> > Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
> >
> > That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
> >
> > Holly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> >
> > Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate
> > with no
> > cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and
> > *anthocyanidins
> > *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> > processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has
> > almost
> > none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a
> > significant
> > amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you
> > limit
> > what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause
> > you to
> > gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is
> > one reason
> > the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for
> > chocolate to
> > be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> > parts.
> >
> > Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>  Spoil sport ! ! !
> >>
> >> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >>
> >> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the
> >> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these
> >> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't
> >> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
> >>
> >>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet
> >> throughout the study?
> >>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,
> >> body mass, age?
> >>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same
> >> lifestyle?
> >>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic
> >> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and
> >> were exposed to similar environments?
> >> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept
> >> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of
> >> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be
> >> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies
> >> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,
> >> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate
> >> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in
> >> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
> >>
> >> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could
> >> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke
> >> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental
> >> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could
> >> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to
> >> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or
> >> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking
> >> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen
> >> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
> >>
> >>
> >> Allen Warren
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

From phoenixacup at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 11:23:31 2010
From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:23:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
	<A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>
Message-ID: <d6eeab3d1002161123q78e52c9hd0d9d8b0f9bd79ce@mail.gmail.com>

The same thing that is wrong with dust mite parts:  many people are allergic
to them.  So that buzz that you get from eating chocolate may not be from
the theobromine, but from your body releasing adrenaline in response to
being exposed to something that is toxic to you.  If you do it day after
day, it leads to adrenal fatigue.  (You definitely don't want to go there.)

Jane B-P

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Jim Katen <jim at benchmarkinspections.com>wrote:

> What's wrong with cockroach parts?
>
> - Jim Katen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:54 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the
> allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed
> food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,
> corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging
> plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.
>
> Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from
> your garden better check them for slugs......
>
> Katie
> Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:
>
> > Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
> >
> > That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
> >
> > Holly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> >
> > Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate
> > with no
> > cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and
> > *anthocyanidins
> > *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> > processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has
> > almost
> > none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a
> > significant
> > amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you
> > limit
> > what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause
> > you to
> > gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is
> > one reason
> > the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for
> > chocolate to
> > be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> > parts.
> >
> > Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>  Spoil sport ! ! !
> >>
> >> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >>
> >> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the
> >> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these
> >> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't
> >> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
> >>
> >>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet
> >> throughout the study?
> >>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,
> >> body mass, age?
> >>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same
> >> lifestyle?
> >>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic
> >> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and
> >> were exposed to similar environments?
> >> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept
> >> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of
> >> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be
> >> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies
> >> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,
> >> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate
> >> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in
> >> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
> >>
> >> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could
> >> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke
> >> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental
> >> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could
> >> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to
> >> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or
> >> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking
> >> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen
> >> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
> >>
> >>
> >> Allen Warren
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Feb 16 11:29:12 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:29:12 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <d6eeab3d1002161123q78e52c9hd0d9d8b0f9bd79ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B799192.6020902@jurislex.com>
	<823906.61890.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B79AADC.5090306@jurislex.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002151450w39cecc92p6a4f9b46ed3f6c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<475339.97384.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<A2685E8E-E63E-4C94-A66D-2CE2F57477B3@verizon.net>
	<A4AB5CACD6154362A8457A9035D86E39@JimDell>
	<d6eeab3d1002161123q78e52c9hd0d9d8b0f9bd79ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4BFA5E1@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Earlier today, Bob's post had me all happy and uppity.  Feelin' gooood.

Now, after all the critters, I'm feelin'....more aware.

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jane Burch-Pesses
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:24 AM
To: jim at benchmarkinspections.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

The same thing that is wrong with dust mite parts:  many people are allergic
to them.  So that buzz that you get from eating chocolate may not be from
the theobromine, but from your body releasing adrenaline in response to
being exposed to something that is toxic to you.  If you do it day after
day, it leads to adrenal fatigue.  (You definitely don't want to go there.)

Jane B-P

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Jim Katen <jim at benchmarkinspections.com>wrote:

> What's wrong with cockroach parts?
>
> - Jim Katen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:54 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Not to throw cold water on anybody's day, but I think that the
> allowable % of cockroach parts is fairly uniform across the processed
> food spectrum.  Peanut butter, hummus in a box, soup, dried beans,
> corn meal, oatmeal etc.  If it comes from a factory or packaging
> plant it can have bug parts in  it, and most likely does.
>
> Sorry to ruin your dinner....and if you went out to pick onions from
> your garden better check them for slugs......
>
> Katie
> Remember, if we ruin the world the cockroaches will still be here.
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Holly T. wrote:
>
> > Wow; "cockroach parts" in chocolate. What a bummer.
> >
> > That's definitely one way to get yum and yuck into the same sentence.
> >
> > Holly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jane Burch-Pesses <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 2:50:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
> >
> > Following up in the spoil sport line, "white" chocolate (chocolate
> > with no
> > cacao) has no *"flavonoids*, *flavanols*, *isoflavones*, and
> > *anthocyanidins
> > *" to speak of, milk chocolate has very little.  Dutch cocoa (alkaline
> > processed cocoa, which is most of the cocoa you see in stores) has
> > almost
> > none.  Dark chocolate is the only kind of chocolate that has a
> > significant
> > amount of antioxidants and has a positive health effect only if you
> > limit
> > what you eat to 1.5 ounces a day.  Eating enough chocolate to cause
> > you to
> > gain weight counteracts the effects of the antioxidants (which is
> > one reason
> > the studies are contradictory).  Also it is legal in the US for
> > chocolate to
> > be up to 4% cockroach parts, and many people are allergic to cockroach
> > parts.
> >
> > Jane "the other spoil sport" B-P
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>  Spoil sport ! ! !
> >>
> >> bob "would be chocoholic" browning
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> On 2/15/2010 11:56 AM, Allen Warren wrote:
> >>
> >> As someone who's performed numerous research experiments in the
> >> past, I want to caution that it's important to understand w/these
> >> studies there are so many variables at play here that aren't
> >> necessarily called out in the study, to name a few:
> >>
> >>     * Were all study participants given the same food diet
> >> throughout the study?
> >>     * Were all study participants of the same general body shape,
> >> body mass, age?
> >>     * Did all study participants lead approximately the same
> >> lifestyle?
> >>     * Did all study participants have similar ancestry genetic
> >> make-up, i.e. participant ancestors lived similar lifestyles and
> >> were exposed to similar environments?
> >> In a truly controlled experimental study, all variables are kept
> >> the same save one, or at most two.  And to prove the results of
> >> the experimental study, the experimental study must be able to be
> >> replicated with same results achieved.  Even the three studies
> >> cited in the report have such wildly varying output results,
> >> including the 3rd study showing no association between chocolate
> >> intake and stroke or death.  Statistically speaking, the data in
> >> the three studies doesn't look like it can be correlated.
> >>
> >> I don't disagree that flavanoids, flavanoils, etc. could
> >> potentially, repeat could potentially lower stroke and stroke
> >> mortality, but I would like to see better controlled experimental
> >> studies else people who already lead an unhealthy lifestyle could
> >> potentially only see an article heading of Chocolate linked to
> >> lower stroke and stroke mortality risk then start consuming or
> >> just increasing their intake of chocolate erroneously thinking
> >> just the ingestion of chocolate would help them.  And I've seen
> >> people practice this exact type of behavior in the past.
> >>
> >>
> >> Allen Warren
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 11:29:54 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:29:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com>

Holly,

It seems a little disingenuous to say that only Liberals care about 
problems and that Conservatives don't.  All people I have met, 
regardless of their political standing has empathy whether or not the 
problem affects them.

Then again I am a Libertarian.  Seeing that I'm neither liberal or 
conservative, does that mean I'm happy about being unhappy or am I 
unhappy about being happy? :-P

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> One has to wonder if the actual research was conducted after Dubya finally left office or before.
>
> But, even if the research was conducted during Obama's reign, there's still a heck of a lot for so-called Liberals (I prefer to think of us as "Progressives") to be unhappy about. Things that we find distressing that Conservatives sometimes don't seem to concern themselves that much about. Things like climate change, hunger, poverty, war, the inordinate number of our citizens who sitting in our prisons without rehabilitation efforts being made, racial inequality, salary inequalities for women, spousal abuse, child abuse, uncontrolled corporate corruption and greed, lack of support for education, health care, declining economic conditions, the list goes on and on. If you prefer to not see things changing very much along these lines, then perhaps it's a lot easier to be "happy". Unless, of course, these issues hit you personally. Then your perspective might start to change a bit. 
>
> I was a Republican until I had babies in my late 20s. Then, suddenly, I saw how vulnerable I was. I saw that this man I was married to could leave me and then I wouldn't be so "self sufficient" anymore. Then, I might need public assistance to help me raise my kids alone. Having kids changed my perspective in a very big way. Am I happier as a Democrat? "You betcha!" -- as Ms. Palin would say. But, I'm also a lot more cognizant of injustices in our country and dissatisfied with the way things are than I was before I came across from the other side. 
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:03:21 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>
> Well, the research is in:  conservatives are
> happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic
> inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except
> possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it
> make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!!
> However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that
> only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the
> difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference,
> especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!
>
> bob "I really care" browning 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>  
>  
>   
>>  Health 
>> Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>> By Jeanna
>> Bryner, Senior Writer
>> posted: 07 May 2008 08:20 am ET
>> Individuals with conservative ideologies are
>> happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason:
>> Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities. 
>>     
>>> Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing
>>>       
>> individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers,
>>
>> the new study found. Conservatives also scored highest on measures of
>> rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain
>> away, inequalities. 
>>     
>>> The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not
>>>       
>> really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life
>> than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less
>> about how equal people are." 
>>     
>>> To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of
>>>       
>> meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status
>>
>> in society based on hard work and good performance. In that way,
>> one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be
>> perceived as totally fair and justified. 
>>     
>>> If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left
>>>       
>> frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier
>> and John Jost of New York University. They conducted a U.S.-centric
>> survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the
>> findings. 
>>     
>>> "Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological
>>>       
>> toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the
>> June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently
>> because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them
>> frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light." 
>>     
>>> The results support and further explain a Pew
>>>       
>> Research Center survey from 2006, in which 47 percent of
>> conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very
>> happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such
>> cheer. 
>>     
>>> The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as
>>>       
>> well. 
>>     
>>> "There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here
>>>       
>> are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write.
>> "Research suggests that highly egalitarian
>>
>> women are less happy in their marriages compared with their more
>> traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by
>> disparities in domestic labor." 
>>     
>>> The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation. 
>>>       
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb 16 11:33:32 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:33:32 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B7AF30C.8020604@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100216/7611d216/attachment.html 

From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 16 12:02:32 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:02:32 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>

Seems that the only way to get manufacturers' attention is a massive  
lawsuit. Most complaints from consumers seem to go into an automated  
"Flack Catcher" system, which automatically kicks out a groveling  
form letter apologizing for unspecified shortcomings, and including  
compensatory coupons of varying degrees of uselessness.
Way back in college days, when i was even more of a shiftless smart- 
aleck, I opened a can of pork & beans and found one green pea  
included along with the traditional solitary cube of pork fat. Having  
nothing better to do that day except maybe study, I put the pea in a  
little plastic case and wrote a satirical cover letter advising  
Nalley's to re-label their product "Pork & Beans With Pea," inquiring  
whether some indignant canned-pea buyer had recently written them  
complaining about a missing pea (enclosed herewith), and any other  
sophomoric gag I could come up with at the moment. I mailed it off  
and forgot it -- and was surprised some weeks later to receive a  
heavy and unexpected package in the mail, containing an abject note  
expressing the company's shock and grief for "your problem with our  
product(s)," and implying that the entire packing department at  
Nalleys had been ritually flogged, the department head had resigned  
his position to become a Trappist monk and spend the rest of his life  
in repentance and the Vice-President in charge of Public Relations  
had committed hara-kiri in the parking lot, witnessed by a somber and  
grief-stricken Board of Directors.
The apology might have been more effective if I hadn't noticed that  
the signature on it was printed.
Included in the package, in reparations for "your problem with our  
product(s)" were four cans of "our other fine products:" one can of  
Garbanzo Beans, one of Black-Eyed Peas, one of Fava Beans and one of  
Crowder Beans-- all of which I happened to detest, so the cans went  
on the shelf until we moved away from Eugene some years later.
The lesson was obvious... humor is wasted on an automated  
bureaucracy. A swift clip upside the head with a bootjack-- or a  
massive lawsuit-- is the only way to get through the thick protective  
layer of smarm surrounding any major corporation.

On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Just goes to show ya:  Timing is everything in this life!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food   
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 12:03:30 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:03:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AF30C.8020604@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com> <4B7AF30C.8020604@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <502982.25080.qm@web112109.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Now I'm trying to decide if I should care or not.  Tuesdays after a 3-day weekend sure are difficult sometimes.  ;-)

Okay . . . now pulling my tongue out of my cheek . . . 

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 11:33:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Ooh!  Good question, Adam!!

bob "which way to swing?" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 2/16/2010 11:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: 
Holly,
>
><snip>
>Then again I am a Libertarian.  Seeing that I'm neither liberal or 
>conservative, does that mean I'm happy about being unhappy or am I 
>unhappy about being happy? :-P
>
>Adam



      

From chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net  Tue Feb 16 11:16:41 2010
From: chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net (Julie Larson)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:16:41 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001caaf3c$92621340$b72639c0$@net>

And people wonder why you are a little bit grouchy...

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jamsm at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:27 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar frosted) 
in my box of Frosted  Flakes.

Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating 
small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.; they sent me
a 
thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around $50 of 
discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It was over
15 
years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!  
 
Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food  products were 
sued for foreign material in foods.
I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out. 
 
Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
 
The Grouch
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From obrzl at verizon.net  Tue Feb 16 12:23:08 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <989255.92833.qm@web84207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

The 'cool' summer job in the Santa Clara valley in the '60's was to work at the canneries, especially night shifts.? I guy I knew would, for kicks, occasionally fill an entire fruit cocktail can with cherries -figuring to?jackpot somebody's day.? Maybe he worked in pork'n beans at some point.
Mark
--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com> wrote:


From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 8:02 PM


Seems that the only way to get manufacturers' attention is a massive? 
lawsuit. Most complaints from consumers seem to go into an automated? 
"Flack Catcher" system, which automatically kicks out a groveling? 
form letter apologizing for unspecified shortcomings, and including? 
compensatory coupons of varying degrees of uselessness.
Way back in college days, when i was even more of a shiftless smart- 
aleck, I opened a can of pork & beans and found one green pea? 
included along with the traditional solitary cube of pork fat. Having? 
nothing better to do that day except maybe study, I put the pea in a? 
little plastic case and wrote a satirical cover letter advising? 
Nalley's to re-label their product "Pork & Beans With Pea," inquiring? 
whether some indignant canned-pea buyer had recently written them? 
complaining about a missing pea (enclosed herewith), and any other? 
sophomoric gag I could come up with at the moment. I mailed it off? 
and forgot it -- and was surprised some weeks later to receive a? 
heavy and unexpected package in the mail, containing an abject note? 
expressing the company's shock and grief for "your problem with our? 
product(s)," and implying that the entire packing department at? 
Nalleys had been ritually flogged, the department head had resigned? 
his position to become a Trappist monk and spend the rest of his life? 
in repentance and the Vice-President in charge of Public Relations? 
had committed hara-kiri in the parking lot, witnessed by a somber and? 
grief-stricken Board of Directors.
The apology might have been more effective if I hadn't noticed that? 
the signature on it was printed.
Included in the package, in reparations for "your problem with our? 
product(s)" were four cans of "our other fine products:" one can of? 
Garbanzo Beans, one of Black-Eyed Peas, one of Fava Beans and one of? 
Crowder Beans-- all of which I happened to detest, so the cans went? 
on the shelf until we moved away from Eugene some years later.
The lesson was obvious... humor is wasted on an automated? 
bureaucracy. A swift clip upside the head with a bootjack-- or a? 
massive lawsuit-- is the only way to get through the thick protective? 
layer of smarm surrounding any major corporation.

On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Just goes to show ya:? Timing is everything in this life!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,? I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar? 
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted? Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.? Had? been eating
> small black pieces all the while.? Sent the thing to the? Mfg.;? 
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.? They also sent? me around? 
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.? Those? went in the trash.? It? 
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box? of dry cereal.? Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food???
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the? millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 13:05:52 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:05:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <932421.90390.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I don't think that Conservatives don't care about issues, Adam. They just often don't care as passionately about the same issues that Progressives tend to care about. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Conservatives. And, since so many of the Progressive issues tend be perceived by Progressives as life threatening and  monumental, I think that has a lot to do with why the "unhappiness" factor slips in more for Progressives.

Progressives, by their very nature, tend to like change. Conservatives, by their very nature, tend to lean toward stability and tradition. Change often brings with it a sense of instability and break from tradition. Instability and break from tradition can breed dissatisfaction and unhappiness. But, change and break from outdated tradition can also breed a sense of exhileration and renewal. Particularly when change makes things better. But then, the idea of what's "better" is, of course, up to the beholder.

My 82-year old mother has Altheimer's. She sits in a chair in her assisted-living apartment and hardly moves all day. Her whole world revolves around watching her TV, reading trashy novels that she doesn't remember from one page to the next, doing crossword puzzles, and going up and down to and from the dining room for meals. She doesn't deviate much from her extremely limited routine. She doesn't even go on outings with others at her facility because she insists, "I'm just not a joiner." Take her away from her extremely limited routine and she immediately becomes aggitated and unhappy. She is an extreme example of one who is uncomfortable with change. No doubt that has more than a little to do with her medical condition. But would you or I like to live that way? Not me for sure. But, it works for her. Oddly enough, she's a life-long Republican. But, once her money runs out--and it could easily run out within the next three years or so--Medicaid will
 kick in to pay for her continued living and medical expenses. So the very socialized system that she has argued against for most of her life could easily be what sustains her as comfortably as possible until her death. It's rather ironic isn't it?

Holly


________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 11:29:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals

Holly,

It seems a little disingenuous to say that only Liberals care about 
problems and that Conservatives don't.  All people I have met, 
regardless of their political standing has empathy whether or not the 
problem affects them.

Then again I am a Libertarian.  Seeing that I'm neither liberal or 
conservative, does that mean I'm happy about being unhappy or am I 
unhappy about being happy? :-P

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> One has to wonder if the actual research was conducted after Dubya finally left office or before.
>
> But, even if the research was conducted during Obama's reign, there's still a heck of a lot for so-called Liberals (I prefer to think of us as "Progressives") to be unhappy about. Things that we find distressing that Conservatives sometimes don't seem to concern themselves that much about. Things like climate change, hunger, poverty, war, the inordinate number of our citizens who sitting in our prisons without rehabilitation efforts being made, racial inequality, salary inequalities for women, spousal abuse, child abuse, uncontrolled corporate corruption and greed, lack of support for education, health care, declining economic conditions, the list goes on and on. If you prefer to not see things changing very much along these lines, then perhaps it's a lot easier to be "happy". Unless, of course, these issues hit you personally. Then your perspective might start to change a bit. 
>
> I was a Republican until I had babies in my late 20s. Then, suddenly, I saw how vulnerable I was. I saw that this man I was married to could leave me and then I wouldn't be so "self sufficient" anymore. Then, I might need public assistance to help me raise my kids alone. Having kids changed my perspective in a very big way. Am I happier as a Democrat? "You betcha!" -- as Ms. Palin would say. But, I'm also a lot more cognizant of injustices in our country and dissatisfied with the way things are than I was before I came across from the other side. 
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:03:21 AM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>
> Well, the research is in:  conservatives are
> happier than liberals. And the reason - "Conservatives rationalize social and economic
> inequalities". And, given the red color of the happiest states (except
> possibly Hawaii) (see the list here:  http://www.livescience.com/culture/happy-states-2009-100216.html  ), it
> make sense generally as to which states are "happier" than others!!
> However, in the interest of scientific rigor, it must be noted that
> only 9.7 "points" separates the top from the bottom (and in 2008 the
> difference was only 7 points), hardly a significant difference,
> especially given the amorphous and self-reported nature of "happiness"!!
>
> bob "I really care" browning 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>  
>  
>  
>>  Health 
>> Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
>> By Jeanna
>> Bryner, Senior Writer
>> posted: 07 May 2008 08:20 am ET
>> Individuals with conservative ideologies are
>> happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason:
>> Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities. 
>>    
>>> Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing
>>>      
>> individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers,
>>
>> the new study found. Conservatives also scored highest on measures of
>> rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain
>> away, inequalities. 
>>    
>>> The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not
>>>      
>> really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life
>> than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less
>> about how equal people are." 
>>    
>>> To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of
>>>      
>> meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status
>>
>> in society based on hard work and good performance. In that way,
>> one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be
>> perceived as totally fair and justified. 
>>    
>>> If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left
>>>      
>> frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier
>> and John Jost of New York University. They conducted a U.S.-centric
>> survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the
>> findings. 
>>    
>>> "Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological
>>>      
>> toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the
>> June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently
>> because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them
>> frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light." 
>>    
>>> The results support and further explain a Pew
>>>      
>> Research Center survey from 2006, in which 47 percent of
>> conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very
>> happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such
>> cheer. 
>>    
>>> The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as
>>>      
>> well. 
>>    
>>> "There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here
>>>      
>> are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write.
>> "Research suggests that highly egalitarian
>>
>> women are less happy in their marriages compared with their more
>> traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by
>> disparities in domestic labor." 
>>    
>>> The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation. 
>>>      
>
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 13:08:57 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Conservatives Happier Than Liberals
In-Reply-To: <4B7AF30C.8020604@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7ADDE9.8010107@jurislex.com>
	<319623.18849.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B7AF232.1070103@gmail.com> <4B7AF30C.8020604@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <546785.25411.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

And, in answer to your question below, Adam, I think one of the coolest things about your being a Libertarian is that you get to play your Conservative vs. Liberal cards and your happiness vs. unhappiness cards any way you want.

Holly

*****************************************************************

Holly,
>
><snip>
>Then again I am a Libertarian.  Seeing that I'm neither liberal or 
>conservative, does that mean I'm happy about being unhappy or am I 
>unhappy about being happy? :-P
>
>Adam



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 13:16:06 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:16:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <551952.13413.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hilarious!

Holly




________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 12:02:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Seems that the only way to get manufacturers' attention is a massive  
lawsuit. Most complaints from consumers seem to go into an automated  
"Flack Catcher" system, which automatically kicks out a groveling  
form letter apologizing for unspecified shortcomings, and including  
compensatory coupons of varying degrees of uselessness.
Way back in college days, when i was even more of a shiftless smart- 
aleck, I opened a can of pork & beans and found one green pea  
included along with the traditional solitary cube of pork fat. Having  
nothing better to do that day except maybe study, I put the pea in a  
little plastic case and wrote a satirical cover letter advising  
Nalley's to re-label their product "Pork & Beans With Pea," inquiring  
whether some indignant canned-pea buyer had recently written them  
complaining about a missing pea (enclosed herewith), and any other  
sophomoric gag I could come up with at the moment. I mailed it off  
and forgot it -- and was surprised some weeks later to receive a  
heavy and unexpected package in the mail, containing an abject note  
expressing the company's shock and grief for "your problem with our  
product(s)," and implying that the entire packing department at  
Nalleys had been ritually flogged, the department head had resigned  
his position to become a Trappist monk and spend the rest of his life  
in repentance and the Vice-President in charge of Public Relations  
had committed hara-kiri in the parking lot, witnessed by a somber and  
grief-stricken Board of Directors.
The apology might have been more effective if I hadn't noticed that  
the signature on it was printed.
Included in the package, in reparations for "your problem with our  
product(s)" were four cans of "our other fine products:" one can of  
Garbanzo Beans, one of Black-Eyed Peas, one of Fava Beans and one of  
Crowder Beans-- all of which I happened to detest, so the cans went  
on the shelf until we moved away from Eugene some years later.
The lesson was obvious... humor is wasted on an automated  
bureaucracy. A swift clip upside the head with a bootjack-- or a  
massive lawsuit-- is the only way to get through the thick protective  
layer of smarm surrounding any major corporation.

On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Just goes to show ya:  Timing is everything in this life!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food  
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Feb 16 20:44:51 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:44:51 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove resident honored.
Message-ID: <3FFB10C7-E389-4E14-909C-2A0784DF37D6@verizon.net>

Read this today:

From the 1000 Friends of Oregon.

For our 35th anniversary - and Oregon's 151st birthday - we'd like to celebrate the past, present and future by honoring 35 Innovators Under 35...young Oregonians making a difference in their communities while continuing Oregon's proud legacy of an active, engaged citizenry. ...

Gina Bell 
Forest Grove

Gina helped get the Forest Grove Farmers Market off the ground and now manages the market. She is also Director of Development for Adelante Mujeres, a community-based organization that helps immigrant families achieve self-determination through 3 areas: Education, Empowerment & Enterprise.



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Feb 17 10:50:56 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:50:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <551952.13413.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>
	<551952.13413.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4CD3049@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

And to think that the Supremes, or the five right-wingers on the Supremes, place enough trust in smarmy major corporations to allow them the same rights as the human beings they screw.

--Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:16 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Hilarious!

Holly




________________________________
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 12:02:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .

Seems that the only way to get manufacturers' attention is a massive  
lawsuit. Most complaints from consumers seem to go into an automated  
"Flack Catcher" system, which automatically kicks out a groveling  
form letter apologizing for unspecified shortcomings, and including  
compensatory coupons of varying degrees of uselessness.
Way back in college days, when i was even more of a shiftless smart- 
aleck, I opened a can of pork & beans and found one green pea  
included along with the traditional solitary cube of pork fat. Having  
nothing better to do that day except maybe study, I put the pea in a  
little plastic case and wrote a satirical cover letter advising  
Nalley's to re-label their product "Pork & Beans With Pea," inquiring  
whether some indignant canned-pea buyer had recently written them  
complaining about a missing pea (enclosed herewith), and any other  
sophomoric gag I could come up with at the moment. I mailed it off  
and forgot it -- and was surprised some weeks later to receive a  
heavy and unexpected package in the mail, containing an abject note  
expressing the company's shock and grief for "your problem with our  
product(s)," and implying that the entire packing department at  
Nalleys had been ritually flogged, the department head had resigned  
his position to become a Trappist monk and spend the rest of his life  
in repentance and the Vice-President in charge of Public Relations  
had committed hara-kiri in the parking lot, witnessed by a somber and  
grief-stricken Board of Directors.
The apology might have been more effective if I hadn't noticed that  
the signature on it was printed.
Included in the package, in reparations for "your problem with our  
product(s)" were four cans of "our other fine products:" one can of  
Garbanzo Beans, one of Black-Eyed Peas, one of Fava Beans and one of  
Crowder Beans-- all of which I happened to detest, so the cans went  
on the shelf until we moved away from Eugene some years later.
The lesson was obvious... humor is wasted on an automated  
bureaucracy. A swift clip upside the head with a bootjack-- or a  
massive lawsuit-- is the only way to get through the thick protective  
layer of smarm surrounding any major corporation.

On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Just goes to show ya:  Timing is everything in this life!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar  
> frosted)
> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>
> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been eating
> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;  
> they sent me a
> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around  
> $50 of
> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It  
> was over 15
> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>
> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food  
> products were
> sued for foreign material in foods.
> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>
> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>
> The Grouch
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb 17 11:33:00 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:33:00 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4CD3049@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <24a9.7ce0f290.38abf715@aol.com>
	<280118.16876.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<50996A6E-B139-47E4-B085-F006E47A17AE@teleport.com>
	<551952.13413.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4CD3049@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <253D8DAD-8838-48FE-92D4-8C86419791F1@teleport.com>

Yep!
Welcome to the Incorporated States of america... no consumers need  
apply...
On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:

> And to think that the Supremes, or the five right-wingers on the  
> Supremes, place enough trust in smarmy major corporations to allow  
> them the same rights as the human beings they screw.
>
> --Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:16 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Hilarious!
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 12:02:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>
> Seems that the only way to get manufacturers' attention is a massive
> lawsuit. Most complaints from consumers seem to go into an automated
> "Flack Catcher" system, which automatically kicks out a groveling
> form letter apologizing for unspecified shortcomings, and including
> compensatory coupons of varying degrees of uselessness.
> Way back in college days, when i was even more of a shiftless smart-
> aleck, I opened a can of pork & beans and found one green pea
> included along with the traditional solitary cube of pork fat. Having
> nothing better to do that day except maybe study, I put the pea in a
> little plastic case and wrote a satirical cover letter advising
> Nalley's to re-label their product "Pork & Beans With Pea," inquiring
> whether some indignant canned-pea buyer had recently written them
> complaining about a missing pea (enclosed herewith), and any other
> sophomoric gag I could come up with at the moment. I mailed it off
> and forgot it -- and was surprised some weeks later to receive a
> heavy and unexpected package in the mail, containing an abject note
> expressing the company's shock and grief for "your problem with our
> product(s)," and implying that the entire packing department at
> Nalleys had been ritually flogged, the department head had resigned
> his position to become a Trappist monk and spend the rest of his life
> in repentance and the Vice-President in charge of Public Relations
> had committed hara-kiri in the parking lot, witnessed by a somber and
> grief-stricken Board of Directors.
> The apology might have been more effective if I hadn't noticed that
> the signature on it was printed.
> Included in the package, in reparations for "your problem with our
> product(s)" were four cans of "our other fine products:" one can of
> Garbanzo Beans, one of Black-Eyed Peas, one of Fava Beans and one of
> Crowder Beans-- all of which I happened to detest, so the cans went
> on the shelf until we moved away from Eugene some years later.
> The lesson was obvious... humor is wasted on an automated
> bureaucracy. A swift clip upside the head with a bootjack-- or a
> massive lawsuit-- is the only way to get through the thick protective
> layer of smarm surrounding any major corporation.
>
> On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>> Just goes to show ya:  Timing is everything in this life!
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" <Jamsm at aol.com>
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:26:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Talk about good news . . . . . .
>>
>> On the subject of foreign material in processed food.
>> In the early 80s,  I came across a complete rat (cooked and sugar
>> frosted)
>> in my box of Frosted  Flakes.
>>
>> Of course, I found it when the box was almost empty.  Had  been  
>> eating
>> small black pieces all the while.  Sent the thing to the  Mfg.;
>> they sent me a
>> thank you note for sending it to them.  They also sent  me around
>> $50 of
>> discount coupons for their cereals.  Those  went in the trash.  It
>> was over 15
>> years before I bought another box  of dry cereal.  Yuck!
>>
>> Some years after my incident, manufacturers of various food
>> products were
>> sued for foreign material in foods.
>> I missed out on the  millions of that were handed out.
>>
>> Eat the stuff it won't hurt you...
>>
>> The Grouch
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Feb 17 17:05:56 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:05:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
Message-ID: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100217/ed5e6d0d/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: newsweek-print-logo.png
Type: image/png
Size: 961 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100217/ed5e6d0d/attachment.png 

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 17 19:02:46 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:02:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com>
References: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <382111.15181.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Thanks for sharing, Bob. To quote the Newsweek article you shared below:

"Thanks
to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011."

Let's hope so. And, let's hope some of that powerful growth trickles on down to Oregon. 

Holly





________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 5:05:56 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .


  
  Are You Feeling Stimulated Yet? 
After three hundred and sixty-five days and
$787 billion, the economy is picking up. Kind of. 
By Daniel Gross | Newsweek Web Exclusive  
Feb 17, 2010 | Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET
Feb 17, 2010
The stimulus package turns one today. Happy Birthday!
Has it been a success? On the macroeconomic level, it's too
soon to tell. Yes, White House economics adviser Christina Romer last
month said that employment was 1.5 million to 2
million higher because of the stimulus. And you don't have to take it
from the White House, David Leonhardt recently wrote in the New York Times: "perhaps the best-known
economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers
and Moody's Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has
added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate
impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs."
On the other hand, the stimulus has been quite successful on a
political level?even if the polls don't necessarily show it. Remember,
it was essentially a Democratic undertaking. Every Republican member of
the House and all but three Republican members of the Senate voted
against it. And since its passage there have been continued calls for
its repeal or for halting. But what precisely are they objecting to?
Again, look to Recovery.gov. The biggest single chunk of the
stimulus was tax cuts?$288 billion.
Second, in the wake of the bill's passage, Republicans stood up
as one to say that the stimulus would fail (at least the non-tax-cut
part of it) because it was axiomatic that government spending could not create
any jobs?never did, can?t won?t. As Michael Steele put it: "Let's
get this notion out of our heads that the government can create jobs.
Not in the history of mankind has the government ever created a job."  
Of course, that argument was wrong in theory?and in practice.
In the intervening months, Republicans have essentially debunked their
own argument. As President Obama noted in his State of the Union
address, many Republican members of the House and Senate who voted
against the stimulus on economic, political, and philosophical grounds
rushed to take part in ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects funded by
the stimulus bill. More recently, reporters and commentators have
noticed that many of the Republicans who voted against the stimulus (on
the grounds that it couldn't create jobs) have since petitioned
government agencies on behalf of their states and districts to get
stimulus funds?on the grounds that it would create jobs. (Rachel Maddow
of MSNBC had a particularly good listing of the culprits here.)
That leaves the third leg of the stimulus stool: entitlements.
Much of the spending in this area has been on Medicaid?an effort to
help state governments, run by Democrats and Republicans alike, cope
with the rising costs of residents left uninsured or underinsured by
the economic downturn. And it's very difficult to find anybody?in the
health-care industry or in state or federal politics?who argues that
we'd be better off if state and federal health care programs have less
money to spend. In fact, it's become an article of faith for
Republicans that spending on Medicare can't be reduced in any way,
shape or form.
So in the year since the stimulus bill was passed, it's been
more difficult for opponents to make the case against the components of
the package. And here's the kicker. As much as its impact has been
debated and discussed, the stimulus has barely kicked into gear. The
package was designed to be rolled out over a three-year period, in part
because of logistics (it's tough to approve tens of billions of dollars
of loan guarantees to wind-energy farms and solar power arrays in a
matter of a few months), and in part because of politics. 
Recovery.gov shows precisely how much has been budgeted and how
much has been spent on tax breaks, new spending, and entitlements. It's
not mentioned as much, but while Congress' horizon extends only as far
as November 2010, the Obama administration is looking ahead to November
2012. While Congressional Democrats would have preferred an extremely
strong shot of adrenalin that would produce results in a matter of
months, the White House isn't particularly troubled by the notion that
large chunks of the stimulus won't hit the economy until 2011. Thanks
to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011.
Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/233722
? 2010 


      

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 06:03:52 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:03:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
In-Reply-To: <382111.15181.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com>
	<382111.15181.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B7D48C8.4050301@gmail.com>

It'll be interesting to see when our money is given back.  My guess is 
around October in congressional districts that might have a close race.  
But then again I could be wrong.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Thanks for sharing, Bob. To quote the Newsweek article you shared below:
>
> "Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011."
>
> Let's hope so. And, let's hope some of that powerful growth trickles on down to Oregon. 
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 5:05:56 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
>
>
>   
>   Are You Feeling Stimulated Yet? 
> After three hundred and sixty-five days and
> $787 billion, the economy is picking up. Kind of. 
> By Daniel Gross | Newsweek Web Exclusive  
> Feb 17, 2010 | Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET
> Feb 17, 2010
> The stimulus package turns one today. Happy Birthday!
> Has it been a success? On the macroeconomic level, it's too
> soon to tell. Yes, White House economics adviser Christina Romer last
> month said that employment was 1.5 million to 2
> million higher because of the stimulus. And you don't have to take it
> from the White House, David Leonhardt recently wrote in the New York Times: "perhaps the best-known
> economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers
> and Moody's Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has
> added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate
> impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs."
> On the other hand, the stimulus has been quite successful on a
> political level?even if the polls don't necessarily show it. Remember,
> it was essentially a Democratic undertaking. Every Republican member of
> the House and all but three Republican members of the Senate voted
> against it. And since its passage there have been continued calls for
> its repeal or for halting. But what precisely are they objecting to?
> Again, look to Recovery.gov. The biggest single chunk of the
> stimulus was tax cuts?$288 billion.
> Second, in the wake of the bill's passage, Republicans stood up
> as one to say that the stimulus would fail (at least the non-tax-cut
> part of it) because it was axiomatic that government spending could not create
> any jobs?never did, can?t won?t. As Michael Steele put it: "Let's
> get this notion out of our heads that the government can create jobs.
> Not in the history of mankind has the government ever created a job."  
> Of course, that argument was wrong in theory?and in practice.
> In the intervening months, Republicans have essentially debunked their
> own argument. As President Obama noted in his State of the Union
> address, many Republican members of the House and Senate who voted
> against the stimulus on economic, political, and philosophical grounds
> rushed to take part in ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects funded by
> the stimulus bill. More recently, reporters and commentators have
> noticed that many of the Republicans who voted against the stimulus (on
> the grounds that it couldn't create jobs) have since petitioned
> government agencies on behalf of their states and districts to get
> stimulus funds?on the grounds that it would create jobs. (Rachel Maddow
> of MSNBC had a particularly good listing of the culprits here.)
> That leaves the third leg of the stimulus stool: entitlements.
> Much of the spending in this area has been on Medicaid?an effort to
> help state governments, run by Democrats and Republicans alike, cope
> with the rising costs of residents left uninsured or underinsured by
> the economic downturn. And it's very difficult to find anybody?in the
> health-care industry or in state or federal politics?who argues that
> we'd be better off if state and federal health care programs have less
> money to spend. In fact, it's become an article of faith for
> Republicans that spending on Medicare can't be reduced in any way,
> shape or form.
> So in the year since the stimulus bill was passed, it's been
> more difficult for opponents to make the case against the components of
> the package. And here's the kicker. As much as its impact has been
> debated and discussed, the stimulus has barely kicked into gear. The
> package was designed to be rolled out over a three-year period, in part
> because of logistics (it's tough to approve tens of billions of dollars
> of loan guarantees to wind-energy farms and solar power arrays in a
> matter of a few months), and in part because of politics. 
> Recovery.gov shows precisely how much has been budgeted and how
> much has been spent on tax breaks, new spending, and entitlements. It's
> not mentioned as much, but while Congress' horizon extends only as far
> as November 2010, the Obama administration is looking ahead to November
> 2012. While Congressional Democrats would have preferred an extremely
> strong shot of adrenalin that would produce results in a matter of
> months, the White House isn't particularly troubled by the notion that
> large chunks of the stimulus won't hit the economy until 2011. Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011.
> Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/233722
> ? 2010 
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From nospam03 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 18 08:00:43 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:00:43 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4B7D48C8.4050301@gmail.com>
References: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com><382111.15181.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B7D48C8.4050301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1600877976-1266508845-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1596926465-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

So nice of them to give us some of our money back. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:03:52 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .

It'll be interesting to see when our money is given back.  My guess is 
around October in congressional districts that might have a close race.  
But then again I could be wrong.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Thanks for sharing, Bob. To quote the Newsweek article you shared below:
>
> "Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011."
>
> Let's hope so. And, let's hope some of that powerful growth trickles on down to Oregon. 
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 5:05:56 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
>
>
>   
>   Are You Feeling Stimulated Yet? 
> After three hundred and sixty-five days and
> $787 billion, the economy is picking up. Kind of. 
> By Daniel Gross | Newsweek Web Exclusive  
> Feb 17, 2010 | Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET
> Feb 17, 2010
> The stimulus package turns one today. Happy Birthday!
> Has it been a success? On the macroeconomic level, it's too
> soon to tell. Yes, White House economics adviser Christina Romer last
> month said that employment was 1.5 million to 2
> million higher because of the stimulus. And you don't have to take it
> from the White House, David Leonhardt recently wrote in the New York Times: "perhaps the best-known
> economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers
> and Moody's Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has
> added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate
> impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs."
> On the other hand, the stimulus has been quite successful on a
> political level?even if the polls don't necessarily show it. Remember,
> it was essentially a Democratic undertaking. Every Republican member of
> the House and all but three Republican members of the Senate voted
> against it. And since its passage there have been continued calls for
> its repeal or for halting. But what precisely are they objecting to?
> Again, look to Recovery.gov. The biggest single chunk of the
> stimulus was tax cuts?$288 billion.
> Second, in the wake of the bill's passage, Republicans stood up
> as one to say that the stimulus would fail (at least the non-tax-cut
> part of it) because it was axiomatic that government spending could not create
> any jobs?never did, can?t won?t. As Michael Steele put it: "Let's
> get this notion out of our heads that the government can create jobs.
> Not in the history of mankind has the government ever created a job."  
> Of course, that argument was wrong in theory?and in practice.
> In the intervening months, Republicans have essentially debunked their
> own argument. As President Obama noted in his State of the Union
> address, many Republican members of the House and Senate who voted
> against the stimulus on economic, political, and philosophical grounds
> rushed to take part in ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects funded by
> the stimulus bill. More recently, reporters and commentators have
> noticed that many of the Republicans who voted against the stimulus (on
> the grounds that it couldn't create jobs) have since petitioned
> government agencies on behalf of their states and districts to get
> stimulus funds?on the grounds that it would create jobs. (Rachel Maddow
> of MSNBC had a particularly good listing of the culprits here.)
> That leaves the third leg of the stimulus stool: entitlements.
> Much of the spending in this area has been on Medicaid?an effort to
> help state governments, run by Democrats and Republicans alike, cope
> with the rising costs of residents left uninsured or underinsured by
> the economic downturn. And it's very difficult to find anybody?in the
> health-care industry or in state or federal politics?who argues that
> we'd be better off if state and federal health care programs have less
> money to spend. In fact, it's become an article of faith for
> Republicans that spending on Medicare can't be reduced in any way,
> shape or form.
> So in the year since the stimulus bill was passed, it's been
> more difficult for opponents to make the case against the components of
> the package. And here's the kicker. As much as its impact has been
> debated and discussed, the stimulus has barely kicked into gear. The
> package was designed to be rolled out over a three-year period, in part
> because of logistics (it's tough to approve tens of billions of dollars
> of loan guarantees to wind-energy farms and solar power arrays in a
> matter of a few months), and in part because of politics. 
> Recovery.gov shows precisely how much has been budgeted and how
> much has been spent on tax breaks, new spending, and entitlements. It's
> not mentioned as much, but while Congress' horizon extends only as far
> as November 2010, the Obama administration is looking ahead to November
> 2012. While Congressional Democrats would have preferred an extremely
> strong shot of adrenalin that would produce results in a matter of
> months, the White House isn't particularly troubled by the notion that
> large chunks of the stimulus won't hit the economy until 2011. Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011.
> Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/233722
> ? 2010 
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 18 09:50:25 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:50:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
In-Reply-To: <1600877976-1266508845-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1596926465-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <4B7C9274.5050308@jurislex.com><382111.15181.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B7D48C8.4050301@gmail.com>
	<1600877976-1266508845-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1596926465-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <575440.6090.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Uh...I'm not holding my breath.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 8:00:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .

So nice of them to give us some of our money back. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:03:52 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .

It'll be interesting to see when our money is given back.  My guess is 
around October in congressional districts that might have a close race.  
But then again I could be wrong.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Thanks for sharing, Bob. To quote the Newsweek article you shared below:
>
> "Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011."
>
> Let's hope so. And, let's hope some of that powerful growth trickles on down to Oregon. 
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 5:05:56 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Just for your information . . . .
>
>
>  
>   Are You Feeling Stimulated Yet? 
> After three hundred and sixty-five days and
> $787 billion, the economy is picking up. Kind of. 
> By Daniel Gross | Newsweek Web Exclusive  
> Feb 17, 2010 | Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET
> Feb 17, 2010
> The stimulus package turns one today. Happy Birthday!
> Has it been a success? On the macroeconomic level, it's too
> soon to tell. Yes, White House economics adviser Christina Romer last
> month said that employment was 1.5 million to 2
> million higher because of the stimulus. And you don't have to take it
> from the White House, David Leonhardt recently wrote in the New York Times: "perhaps the best-known
> economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers
> and Moody's Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has
> added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate
> impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs."
> On the other hand, the stimulus has been quite successful on a
> political level?even if the polls don't necessarily show it. Remember,
> it was essentially a Democratic undertaking. Every Republican member of
> the House and all but three Republican members of the Senate voted
> against it. And since its passage there have been continued calls for
> its repeal or for halting. But what precisely are they objecting to?
> Again, look to Recovery.gov. The biggest single chunk of the
> stimulus was tax cuts?$288 billion.
> Second, in the wake of the bill's passage, Republicans stood up
> as one to say that the stimulus would fail (at least the non-tax-cut
> part of it) because it was axiomatic that government spending could not create
> any jobs?never did, can?t won?t. As Michael Steele put it: "Let's
> get this notion out of our heads that the government can create jobs.
> Not in the history of mankind has the government ever created a job."  
> Of course, that argument was wrong in theory?and in practice.
> In the intervening months, Republicans have essentially debunked their
> own argument. As President Obama noted in his State of the Union
> address, many Republican members of the House and Senate who voted
> against the stimulus on economic, political, and philosophical grounds
> rushed to take part in ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects funded by
> the stimulus bill. More recently, reporters and commentators have
> noticed that many of the Republicans who voted against the stimulus (on
> the grounds that it couldn't create jobs) have since petitioned
> government agencies on behalf of their states and districts to get
> stimulus funds?on the grounds that it would create jobs. (Rachel Maddow
> of MSNBC had a particularly good listing of the culprits here.)
> That leaves the third leg of the stimulus stool: entitlements.
> Much of the spending in this area has been on Medicaid?an effort to
> help state governments, run by Democrats and Republicans alike, cope
> with the rising costs of residents left uninsured or underinsured by
> the economic downturn. And it's very difficult to find anybody?in the
> health-care industry or in state or federal politics?who argues that
> we'd be better off if state and federal health care programs have less
> money to spend. In fact, it's become an article of faith for
> Republicans that spending on Medicare can't be reduced in any way,
> shape or form.
> So in the year since the stimulus bill was passed, it's been
> more difficult for opponents to make the case against the components of
> the package. And here's the kicker. As much as its impact has been
> debated and discussed, the stimulus has barely kicked into gear. The
> package was designed to be rolled out over a three-year period, in part
> because of logistics (it's tough to approve tens of billions of dollars
> of loan guarantees to wind-energy farms and solar power arrays in a
> matter of a few months), and in part because of politics. 
> Recovery.gov shows precisely how much has been budgeted and how
> much has been spent on tax breaks, new spending, and entitlements. It's
> not mentioned as much, but while Congress' horizon extends only as far
> as November 2010, the Obama administration is looking ahead to November
> 2012. While Congressional Democrats would have preferred an extremely
> strong shot of adrenalin that would produce results in a matter of
> months, the White House isn't particularly troubled by the notion that
> large chunks of the stimulus won't hit the economy until 2011. Thanks
> to the stimulus bill, there's still $515 billion?in the form of tax
> cuts, contracts and loans, and aids to entitlement programs?set to
> enter the economy in the next two years. That will serve as a powerful
> contributor to growth in 2010 and 2011.
> Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/233722
> ? 2010 
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 18 19:50:21 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:50:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Message-ID: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories 

Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?

 
Allen Warren



      

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 18 19:54:27 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:54:27 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>

I'm sure there is some holding fee paid to the atheist. Sign up.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Allen Warren
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:50 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campai
gn_id=rss_topStories 

Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase,
"There's a sucker born every minute."?

 
Allen Warren



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 20:59:53 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:59:53 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
Message-ID: <3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>

Why, only atheists in the money for this one.  What about agnostics?  Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and others who don't believe in the Rapture?

David

On Feb 18, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Steven wrote:

> I'm sure there is some holding fee paid to the atheist. Sign up.



From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 21:21:52 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:21:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>

Good point. I can only imagine the thought process that goes into  
having faith that Fido will be safe with whoever is left behind.

Katie

On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:59 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> Why, only atheists in the money for this one.  What about  
> agnostics?  Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and others who don't believe  
> in the Rapture?
>
> David
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Steven wrote:
>
>> I'm sure there is some holding fee paid to the atheist. Sign up.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 21:32:57 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:32:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>

We will never know.  

There will be no rapture in our life time.

David

On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Good point. I can only imagine the thought process that goes into  
> having faith that Fido will be safe with whoever is left behind.
> 
> Katie


From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Feb 18 22:01:04 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:01:04 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <30C28D62-AE1F-4C37-9C60-6182A1785808@teleport.com>

Love it! Just as distributors of illegal drugs tap into the booming  
market of drug addicts, Centre is tapping into the booming market of  
religion addicts. Free enterprise and individual initiative at its best!

One small fly in the ointment, however: Since atheists are vastly  
outnumbered by their pious brethren and sistren, might this mean the  
hapless godless would be overrun by the forsaken pets of the godly,  
and condemned to filling food bowls and emptying litter boxes 24/7?  
That would be Hell! Perhaps not coincidentally...

Could it be that Centre is actually an agent of --(dramatic chord)--  
SATAN??!!??

On Feb 18, 2010, at 7:50 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>
> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 05:35:59 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:35:59 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>

Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for 
this?  :-P

Adam

Allen Warren wrote:
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories 
>
> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>
>  
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Feb 19 07:31:22 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:31:22 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>

Aren't you assuming it hasn't happened yet?

; P

Katie

On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> We will never know.
>
> There will be no rapture in our life time.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> Good point. I can only imagine the thought process that goes into
>> having faith that Fido will be safe with whoever is left behind.
>>
>> Katie
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 19 07:45:08 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:45:08 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <005601cab17a$83e57560$8bb06020$@net>

Won't happen until the 12th Imam returns. Luckily there is one leader who is
planning.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 7:31 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Aren't you assuming it hasn't happened yet?

; P

Katie

On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> We will never know.
>
> There will be no rapture in our life time.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> Good point. I can only imagine the thought process that goes into
>> having faith that Fido will be safe with whoever is left behind.
>>
>> Katie
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 19 08:23:16 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:23:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>

No, because  after all, this contract for the care of Deraptured Pets  
is a legal and binding one... some atheist rock aficionado would be  
obliged to keep your abandoned rock dusted, Simonized and amused for  
the rest of its natural life. Aft least he would be spared the chores  
of feeding and cleaning up after it.

On Feb 19, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
> this?  :-P
>
> Adam
>
> Allen Warren wrote:
>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>
>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 19 08:25:35 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:25:35 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <005601cab17a$83e57560$8bb06020$@net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<005601cab17a$83e57560$8bb06020$@net>
Message-ID: <A3F9F649-3E89-4F77-9B61-A44864FC403D@teleport.com>

If he is who I think he is, hopefully he would take all his nuclear  
engineers with him, and relieve the unbelieving world of at least one  
nagging worry.

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Steven wrote:

> Won't happen until the 12th Imam returns. Luckily there is one  
> leader who is
> planning.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 7:31 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Aren't you assuming it hasn't happened yet?
>
> ; P
>
> Katie
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> We will never know.
>>
>> There will be no rapture in our life time.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>
>>> Good point. I can only imagine the thought process that goes into
>>> having faith that Fido will be safe with whoever is left behind.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 10:02:18 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20 years.

Holly





________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for 
this?  :-P

Adam

Allen Warren wrote:
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories 
>
> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>
>  
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Fri Feb 19 10:02:23 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100219/f5a7cc25/attachment.html 

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 10:05:04 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:05:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>
	<4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <88737.53836.qm@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Bob, thank you for sharing.  That is very touching.

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 10:02:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Actually, I'm reminded of the story about the fellow
who is out walking his dog and they are both hit and killed by a big
truck. The story continues _


It suddenly occurred to the man that he was
>actually dead.He
>remembered dying, and that his dog too was dead.  He wondered where the
>road would lead them, and continued onward.
>  After a while, they came to a high,
>white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine
>marble. At the top of a long hill a tall white arch that gleamed in the
>sunlight breached the wall. When he was standing before it, he saw a
>magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the
>street that led to the gate looked like pure gold.  
>He was pleased that he had finally arrived at Heaven,
>and the man and his dog walked toward the gate. As he got closer, he
>saw someone sitting at a beautifully carved desk off to one side. When
>he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, but is this Heaven?" 
>"Yes, yes it is, sir," the man answered. 
>"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man
>asked. 
>"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice
>water brought right up." The gatekeeper gestured to his rear, and the
>huge gate began to open. 
>"I assume my friend can come in?" the man asked,
>gesturing toward his dog. 
>But the reply was "I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept
>pets." 
>The man thought about it for a moment, then thanked the
>gatekeeper and, calling to his dog, turned back toward the road, and
>continued in the direction he had been going. 
>After a long walk, he reached the top of another hill.
>He eventually came to a dirt road that led through a farm gate. 
>There was no fence, and it looked as if the gate had never been closed,
>as grass had grown up around it. As he approached the gate, he saw a
>man just insidereading a book>and sitting in a rickety old
>chair in the shade of a
>tree. 
>"Excuse me!", he called to the reader. "Do you have any
>water?" 
>"Certainly, There's a pump over there", the sitting man
>said, pointing to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate.
>"Come on in and make yourself at home." 
>"How about my friend here?", the traveler gestured to
>the dog. The sitting man replied, "He's welcome, too, and there's a
>bowl by the pump". 
>The man and the dog walked through the gate and, sure
>enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a dipper hanging on
>it and a bowl next to it on the ground. The man filled the bowl for his
>dog; he then took a long drink himself. 
>When both were satisfied, he and the dog walked back
>toward the man, who was sitting under the tree waiting for them. The
>man asked, "What do you call this place?" 
>"This is Heaven," was the answer. 
>"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "It
>certainly doesn't look like Heaven, and there's another man down the
>road who said that place was Heaven." 
>"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly
>gates?" 
>"Yes, it was beautiful." 
>"Nope. That's Hell." 
>"Doesn't it offend you for them to use the name of
>Heaven like that?" 
>"No. I can see how you might think so, but it actually
>saves us a lot of time. They screen out the people who are willing to
>leave their best friends behind!"  
bob "man's best friend" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 2/19/2010 8:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: 
No, because  after all, this contract for the care of Deraptured Pets  
>is a legal and binding one... some atheist rock aficionado would be  
>obliged to keep your abandoned rock dusted, Simonized and amused for  
>the rest of its natural life. Aft least he would be spared the chores  
>of feeding and cleaning up after it.
>
>On Feb 19, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>this?  :-P
>>
>>Adam
>>
>>Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>>http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>>b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>>Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>>phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>Allen Warren



      

From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 10:07:42 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:07:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <459401.41281.qm@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I'm wondering 2 things:

	1. How much expense did Centre have to pay lawyers to draft iron-clad contract documents
	2. How much he's collected to date in Sales.

 Allen Warren

From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>

To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 10:02:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20 years.

Holly





________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for 
this?  :-P

Adam

Allen Warren wrote:
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories 
>
> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>
>  
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 10:10:45 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:10:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>
	<4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <870723.75876.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Actually, Bob, my dear old father, while he was still alive, told me that he rejected his faith after he learned that animals were not allowed in heaven. He said a place that didn't permit animals sounded like Hell to him. 

Holly (hoping that he's up there running with the deer)




________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 10:02:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Actually, I'm reminded of the story about the fellow
who is out walking his dog and they are both hit and killed by a big
truck. The story continues _


It suddenly occurred to the man that he was
>actually dead.He
>remembered dying, and that his dog too was dead.  He wondered where the
>road would lead them, and continued onward.
>  After a while, they came to a high,
>white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine
>marble. At the top of a long hill a tall white arch that gleamed in the
>sunlight breached the wall. When he was standing before it, he saw a
>magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the
>street that led to the gate looked like pure gold.  
>He was pleased that he had finally arrived at Heaven,
>and the man and his dog walked toward the gate. As he got closer, he
>saw someone sitting at a beautifully carved desk off to one side. When
>he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, but is this Heaven?" 
>"Yes, yes it is, sir," the man answered. 
>"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man
>asked. 
>"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice
>water brought right up." The gatekeeper gestured to his rear, and the
>huge gate began to open. 
>"I assume my friend can come in?" the man asked,
>gesturing toward his dog. 
>But the reply was "I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept
>pets." 
>The man thought about it for a moment, then thanked the
>gatekeeper and, calling to his dog, turned back toward the road, and
>continued in the direction he had been going. 
>After a long walk, he reached the top of another hill.
>He eventually came to a dirt road that led through a farm gate. 
>There was no fence, and it looked as if the gate had never been closed,
>as grass had grown up around it. As he approached the gate, he saw a
>man just insidereading a book>and sitting in a rickety old
>chair in the shade of a
>tree. 
>"Excuse me!", he called to the reader. "Do you have any
>water?" 
>"Certainly, There's a pump over there", the sitting man
>said, pointing to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate.
>"Come on in and make yourself at home." 
>"How about my friend here?", the traveler gestured to
>the dog. The sitting man replied, "He's welcome, too, and there's a
>bowl by the pump". 
>The man and the dog walked through the gate and, sure
>enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a dipper hanging on
>it and a bowl next to it on the ground. The man filled the bowl for his
>dog; he then took a long drink himself. 
>When both were satisfied, he and the dog walked back
>toward the man, who was sitting under the tree waiting for them. The
>man asked, "What do you call this place?" 
>"This is Heaven," was the answer. 
>"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "It
>certainly doesn't look like Heaven, and there's another man down the
>road who said that place was Heaven." 
>"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly
>gates?" 
>"Yes, it was beautiful." 
>"Nope. That's Hell." 
>"Doesn't it offend you for them to use the name of
>Heaven like that?" 
>"No. I can see how you might think so, but it actually
>saves us a lot of time. They screen out the people who are willing to
>leave their best friends behind!"  
bob "man's best friend" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 2/19/2010 8:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: 
No, because  after all, this contract for the care of Deraptured Pets  
>is a legal and binding one... some atheist rock aficionado would be  
>obliged to keep your abandoned rock dusted, Simonized and amused for  
>the rest of its natural life. Aft least he would be spared the chores  
>of feeding and cleaning up after it.
>
>On Feb 19, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>this?  :-P
>>
>>Adam
>>
>>Allen Warren wrote:
>>
>>http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>>b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>>Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>>phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>Allen Warren



      

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 10:17:11 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:17:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B7ED5A7.6040305@gmail.com>

OK, but you can't fool me and sell me funeral plots for them, I already 
bought those years ago.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20 years.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for 
> this?  :-P
>
> Adam
>
> Allen Warren wrote:
>   
>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories 
>>
>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>
>>  
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>  
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From rab at jurislex.com  Fri Feb 19 10:18:45 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:18:45 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <870723.75876.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>	<48E0B95A-E8A4-4385-ACDB-2F73E1353C0C@teleport.com>	<4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
	<870723.75876.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B7ED605.9000905@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100219/9cf2ecd7/attachment.html 

From gritton.family at comcast.net  Fri Feb 19 10:46:43 2010
From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:46:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7ED22F.5050601@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <2101790341.5793411266605203224.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I haven't been able to read the whole thread (Okay, I haven't read much grovenet lately, either), but had to respond to this part because it's a great story and was beautifully portrayed by a "Twilight Zone" episode entitled "The Hunt" and if you ever get the chance to see it, I think you'll like it. While it didn't give the exact same "moral," it was partially implied while also attesting to the intelligence of the dog (who was denied access to "Heaven") by his growling at the guard at the "gates." The man who welcomed the hunter and his dog to the true Heaven pointed out that the dog was smarter than people in being able to tell the difference. 


Cindy Grittton 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Browning" <rab at jurislex.com> 
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com> 
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:02:23 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing! 

Actually, I'm reminded of the story about the fellow who is out walking his dog and they are both hit and killed by a big truck. The story continues _ 




	It suddenly occurred to the man that he was actually dead. He remembered dying, and that his dog too was dead. He wondered where the road would lead them, and continued onward. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill a tall white arch that gleamed in the sunlight breached the wall. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. 

He was pleased that he had finally arrived at Heaven, and the man and his dog walked toward the gate. As he got closer, he saw someone sitting at a beautifully carved desk off to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, but is this Heaven?" 

"Yes, yes it is, sir," the man answered. 

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked. 

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up." The gatekeeper gestured to his rear, and the huge gate began to open. 

"I assume my friend can come in?" the man asked, gesturing toward his dog. 

But the reply was "I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets." 

The man thought about it for a moment, then thanked the gatekeeper and, calling to his dog, turned back toward the road, and continued in the direction he had been going. 

After a long walk, he reached the top of another hill. He eventually came to a dirt road that led through a farm gate. There was no fence, and it looked as if the gate had never been closed, as grass had grown up around it. As he approached the gate, he saw a man just inside reading a book and sitting in a rickety old chair in t he shade of a tree. 

"Excuse me!", he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?" 

"Certainly, There's a pump over there", the sitting man said, pointing to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. "Come on in and make yourself at home." 

"How about my friend here?", the traveler gestured to the dog. The sitting man replied, "He's welcome, too, and there's a bowl by the pump". 

The man and the dog walked through the gate and, sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a dipper hanging on it and a bowl next to it on the ground. The man filled the bowl for his dog; he then took a long drink himself. 

When both were satisfied, he and the dog walked back toward the man, who was sitting under the tree waiting for them. The man asked, "What do you call this place?" 

"This is Heaven," was the answer. 

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "It certainly doesn't look like Heaven, and there's another man down the road who said that place was Heaven." 

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates?" 

"Yes, it was beautiful." 

"Nope. That's Hell." 

"Doesn't it offend you for them to use the name of Heaven like that?" 

"No. I can see how you might think so, but it actually saves us a lot of time. They screen out the people who are willing to leave their best friends behind!" 
bob "man's best friend" browning 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

On 2/19/2010 8:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: 

No, because  after all, this contract for the care of Deraptured Pets  
is a legal and binding one... some atheist rock aficionado would be  
obliged to keep your abandoned rock dusted, Simonized and amused for  
the rest of its natural life. Aft least he would be spared the chores  
of feeding and cleaning up after it.

On Feb 19, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: 

Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
this?  :-P

Adam

Allen Warren wrote: 

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?

Allen Warren 

_______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 

From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 19 16:16:07 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:16:07 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>

Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)

On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
> years.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
> this?  :-P
>
> Adam
>
> Allen Warren wrote:
>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>
>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 17:12:57 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:12:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>

Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be 
pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet backyard.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>   
>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
>> years.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>> this?  :-P
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>     
>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 17:16:32 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:16:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive price to you, the consumer.

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be 
pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet backyard.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>  
>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
>> years.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>> this?  :-P
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>    
>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 21:02:56 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:02:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.

And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the chickens?

What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as atheists? Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate atheist?

I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.

Holly




________________________________
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive price to you, the consumer.


Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be 
pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet backyard.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>  
>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
>> years.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>> this?  :-P
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>    
>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 19 21:34:02 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:34:02 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CB481166-ADA7-4345-87FD-3F917E82E3AF@teleport.com>


On Feb 19, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what  
> will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture  
> enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.

Advertising is the name of the game! He's got to stay ahead of the  
competition by taking out big ads in all the born-againer magazines,  
buying airtime on the 800 Club and other televangelist circuses,  
wearing his hair in a shellacked pompador and practicing talking  
through a fixed and glassy grin.
>
> And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service  
> offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what  
> circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and  
> invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks  
> the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of  
> your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the  
> chickens?

No doubt he'll offer a care contract for those chickens at a reduced  
rate. A certain C. Sanders will accept all the pet chickens anyone  
cares to place with him.
>
> What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What  
> happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as  
> atheists?

Then they'd be Godly god-parents. If they convert after the Rapture,  
they're just outa luck.  From what i've heard, it's a one-time event,  
no return tours.

> Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate atheist?

If they convert BEFORE the Rapture, I suppose they'd be hoisted aloft  
also, leaving their own pets behind, and a reduced crew of atheists  
to carry the burden.
>
> I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.

Ah, but everything's so simple if you'll just believe.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can  
> tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive  
> price to you, the consumer.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be
> pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet  
> backyard.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy
>>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of
>>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>> this?  :-P
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/
>>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>>
>>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that
>>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From a_tom_51 at juno.com  Fri Feb 19 21:57:22 2010
From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 05:57:22 GMT
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Message-ID: <20100219.215722.6134.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>

You people must have rocks in your heads! Will no one speak for the rights of pet rocks to determine their own future. Where is PETR when you need them (People for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks). Pele must be fuming.

Tom Alexander
 

____________________________________________________________
Diet Help
Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=PTULGZPTjQ0dB75yNboLAQAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 19 22:28:38 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:28:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <20100219.215722.6134.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100219.215722.6134.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CDFBA410-6F1A-4FF2-953A-C161E5280732@teleport.com>

What, you would turn a lot of helpless rocks out on their own, with  
no one to care for them? Young rocks are irresponsible and  
thoughtless.  They don't attain maturity and judgement until they  
have lived at least 2.5 million years, and have attained well-rounded  
characters-- generally in stream beds.
On Feb 20, 2010, at 5:57 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote:

> You people must have rocks in your heads! Will no one speak for the  
> rights of pet rocks to determine their own future. Where is PETR  
> when you need them (People for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks).  
> Pele must be fuming.
>
> Tom Alexander
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Diet Help
> Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c? 
> cp=PTULGZPTjQ0dB75yNboLAQAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 
> AAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 22:51:22 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:51:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <352666.66310.qm@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

According to "Earth Bound Pets" T's & C's on their website, http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/Terms_and_Conditions.html, 


Terms and Conditions of Service - Please Read:  


 
	* Eternal Earth-Bound Pets, USA (EE-BP) is not liable, and no refunds will be made, in the event of the loss, death, sale, or transfer of a subscriber's pet(s) prior to the Rapture and during the coverage period of the contract.  
	* Service period commences with receipt of payment. Service contract expires ten (10) years from date of receipt of payment.  	* Change in address of the original owner/subscriber residence will be honored upon
notification via email to EE-BP as long as the new address is within
EE-BP's existing service area.   No refunds will be made for address
changes outside of EE-BP's service area during the contract period. 
Our service covers only one (1) rescue address per contract and fee. 
	* In the event of the death of the subscribing pet owner prior to the Rapture the contract will remain in effect. EE-BP will continue to honor the
contract for the remainder of the contract period.  We do not adopt /
rescue animals except as a result of the Rapture occurance. 
	* If  subscriber loses his/her faith and/or the Rapture occurs and subscriber is not Raptured (aka  is "left behind") EE-BP disclaims any liability; no refund will be tendered.   
	* Should a relative residing within the rescue location not be Raptured and opts to retain the pet(s), EE-BP will not take posession of the pet(s).  No refund will be tendered. 
	* EE-BP
neither makes or implies any other warranties or claims of any other
services or  products except as described in this website. EE-BP is not
associated with any other animal/pet rescue service, foundation or
entity.  
	* All sales are final.  
	* EE-BP reserves the right to refuse any contract submission without cause. 
	* By
contracting with EE-BP for post Rapture pet rescue service,  subscriber
affirms that he/she is 21 years of age or older and has read,
understands, and agrees with all terms and conditions stated herein.  The above language is why I asked how much Centre paid lawyers to review the legal disclaimers.  The language didn't come cheap.

Oh, and if you love your llamas, you can buy the services, but if you worry for your water buffalo, well . . . you're in tough straits. And they say they'll take care of camels?  Really?  One of the most foul-smelling, onerous pack animals around.  But I guess the Rapture would leave behind some Arab Muslims in the Middle East or Africa who might have the capability to handle a few extra camels.

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 9:02:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.

And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the chickens?

What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as atheists? Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate atheist?

I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.

Holly




________________________________
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive price to you, the consumer.


Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be 
pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet backyard.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>  
>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
>> years.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>> this?  :-P
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>    
>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>
>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Feb 19 23:22:31 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 23:22:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>

The idea of a rapture only goes back six centuries or less ( maybe only since 1687) out of two millennium of Christian theology.
The Rapture has been predicted for 1792, 1844, 1977, 1981, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1994, 2011, 2060 etc.

Maybe it happened at each of those dates, sort of a "dribble up" process.

David

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Aren't you assuming it hasn't happened yet?
> 
> ; P
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, David Morelli wrote:
> 
>> We will never know.
>> 
>> There will be no rapture in our life time.
>> 
>> David



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sat Feb 20 06:30:23 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:30:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
References: <20100219.215722.6134.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
	<CDFBA410-6F1A-4FF2-953A-C161E5280732@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1380C5A8EB844033ADFDC64625BECABB@gerianehzkfhvy>

But, Walt -- Have there *been* 2.5 million years???!!!

;-)  Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!


> What, you would turn a lot of helpless rocks out on their own, with  
> no one to care for them? Young rocks are irresponsible and  
> thoughtless.  They don't attain maturity and judgement until they  
> have lived at least 2.5 million years, and have attained well-rounded  
> characters-- generally in stream beds.
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 5:57 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote:
> 
>> You people must have rocks in your heads! Will no one speak for the  
>> rights of pet rocks to determine their own future. Where is PETR  
>> when you need them (People for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks).  
>> Pele must be fuming.
>>
>> Tom Alexander
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Diet Help
>> Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c? 
>> cp=PTULGZPTjQ0dB75yNboLAQAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 
>> AAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb 20 08:46:46 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:46:46 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <352666.66310.qm@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>
	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>
	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>
	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<352666.66310.qm@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DD324FB5-25AE-4690-8016-749FAF13CF6E@teleport.com>

Looks pretty ironclad to me... and the clause about the contract  
being voided if the putative Raptee backlides and gets "left behind"  
is a thoughtful touch.
On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Allen Warren wrote:

> According to "Earth Bound Pets" T's & C's on their website, http:// 
> eternal-earthbound-pets.com/Terms_and_Conditions.html,
>
>
> Terms and Conditions of Service - Please Read:
>
>
>
> 	* Eternal Earth-Bound Pets, USA (EE-BP) is not liable, and no  
> refunds will be made, in the event of the loss, death, sale, or  
> transfer of a subscriber's pet(s) prior to the Rapture and during  
> the coverage period of the contract.
> 	* Service period commences with receipt of payment. Service  
> contract expires ten (10) years from date of receipt of payment.  	 
> * Change in address of the original owner/subscriber residence will  
> be honored upon
> notification via email to EE-BP as long as the new address is within
> EE-BP's existing service area.   No refunds will be made for address
> changes outside of EE-BP's service area during the contract period.
> Our service covers only one (1) rescue address per contract and fee.
> 	* In the event of the death of the subscribing pet owner prior to  
> the Rapture the contract will remain in effect. EE-BP will continue  
> to honor the
> contract for the remainder of the contract period.  We do not adopt /
> rescue animals except as a result of the Rapture occurance.
> 	* If  subscriber loses his/her faith and/or the Rapture occurs and  
> subscriber is not Raptured (aka  is "left behind") EE-BP disclaims  
> any liability; no refund will be tendered.
> 	* Should a relative residing within the rescue location not be  
> Raptured and opts to retain the pet(s), EE-BP will not take  
> posession of the pet(s).  No refund will be tendered.
> 	* EE-BP
> neither makes or implies any other warranties or claims of any other
> services or  products except as described in this website. EE-BP is  
> not
> associated with any other animal/pet rescue service, foundation or
> entity.
> 	* All sales are final.
> 	* EE-BP reserves the right to refuse any contract submission  
> without cause.
> 	* By
> contracting with EE-BP for post Rapture pet rescue service,   
> subscriber
> affirms that he/she is 21 years of age or older and has read,
> understands, and agrees with all terms and conditions stated  
> herein.  The above language is why I asked how much Centre paid  
> lawyers to review the legal disclaimers.  The language didn't come  
> cheap.
>
> Oh, and if you love your llamas, you can buy the services, but if  
> you worry for your water buffalo, well . . . you're in tough  
> straits. And they say they'll take care of camels?  Really?  One of  
> the most foul-smelling, onerous pack animals around.  But I guess  
> the Rapture would leave behind some Arab Muslims in the Middle East  
> or Africa who might have the capability to handle a few extra camels.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 9:02:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what  
> will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture  
> enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.
>
> And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service  
> offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what  
> circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and  
> invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks  
> the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of  
> your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the  
> chickens?
>
> What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What  
> happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as  
> atheists? Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate  
> atheist?
>
> I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can  
> tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive  
> price to you, the consumer.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be
> pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet  
> backyard.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy
>>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of
>>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>> this?  :-P
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/
>>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>>
>>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that
>>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb 20 08:53:23 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:53:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>

Yep... I wonder how many people just chose to abscond from  
obligations by pretending to go along with the Millerite event? I've  
read a  humorous contemporary account by a journalist writing as  
"Doesticks."

On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:22 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> The idea of a rapture only goes back six centuries or less ( maybe  
> only since 1687) out of two millennium of Christian theology.
> The Rapture has been predicted for 1792, 1844, 1977, 1981, 1988,  
> 1989, 1992, 1993, 1994, 2011, 2060 etc.
>
> Maybe it happened at each of those dates, sort of a "dribble up"  
> process.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> Aren't you assuming it hasn't happened yet?
>>
>> ; P
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>>
>>> We will never know.
>>>
>>> There will be no rapture in our life time.
>>>
>>> David
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb 20 08:58:20 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:58:20 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <1380C5A8EB844033ADFDC64625BECABB@gerianehzkfhvy>
References: <20100219.215722.6134.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
	<CDFBA410-6F1A-4FF2-953A-C161E5280732@teleport.com>
	<1380C5A8EB844033ADFDC64625BECABB@gerianehzkfhvy>
Message-ID: <947EF4FC-EF8B-44B7-8418-727EF0FF7D5E@teleport.com>

Just count the growth rings in your pet rock. Of course, you'd have  
to slice him in half first.

On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:30 AM, Geri wrote:

> But, Walt -- Have there *been* 2.5 million years???!!!
>
> ;-)  Geri
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
>
>> What, you would turn a lot of helpless rocks out on their own, with
>> no one to care for them? Young rocks are irresponsible and
>> thoughtless.  They don't attain maturity and judgement until they
>> have lived at least 2.5 million years, and have attained well-rounded
>> characters-- generally in stream beds.
>> On Feb 20, 2010, at 5:57 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote:
>>
>>> You people must have rocks in your heads! Will no one speak for the
>>> rights of pet rocks to determine their own future. Where is PETR
>>> when you need them (People for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks).
>>> Pele must be fuming.
>>>
>>> Tom Alexander
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Diet Help
>>> Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
>>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?
>>> cp=PTULGZPTjQ0dB75yNboLAQAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 
>>> AA
>>> AAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 20 09:23:39 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:23:39 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>

Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a professor in
a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out how to
read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But how to
market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So they set
up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his head.
Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for their own
benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to build
them the best places in town. 

You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending with seven
years of tribulation.
Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great tribulation, global
warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you believe it
with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without everyone
believing as your leaders have told you it should be. 

How does this work?



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb 20 17:30:38 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:30:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
Message-ID: <83FFD23D-8B86-4C61-BD40-1484315C5D1D@teleport.com>

The difference is between the quality of "evidence" that the opinion- 
leaders provide. Analytical thought and unquestioning belief are  
poles apart. If religion is the Science of the Bronze Age, as has  
been proposed, then it was a science based upon strictly limited  
evidence, little or no data and a lot of wishful thinking and  
opportunism. Science, being self-correcting, is not graven in stone,  
but must adapt with each increment of new data.
Or, in the form of an aphorism:

Science asks "Why?" and then attempts to answer, "Because."
Religions says, "Because," and answers, "Because I said so."

On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:

> Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a  
> professor in
> a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out  
> how to
> read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But  
> how to
> market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So  
> they set
> up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his  
> head.
> Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for  
> their own
> benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to  
> build
> them the best places in town.
>
> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending  
> with seven
> years of tribulation.
> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great  
> tribulation, global
> warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you  
> believe it
> with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without  
> everyone
> believing as your leaders have told you it should be.
>
> How does this work?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 18:12:52 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:12:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B8096A4.2060802@gmail.com>

Although my pet rock comment was only a joke, I have no problem with 
Centre selling rapture pet insurance.   As long as there is a contract 
and people understand what they are signing up for, there is nothing 
wrong with this service.  What they are selling to people who believe in 
the rapture is piece of mind.  Those of us who don't believe in this 
just won't buy it.  Those who do will.

We all buy things that are not needed but they give us a sense of 
happiness, comfort and satisfaction.

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.
>
> And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the chickens?
>
> What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as atheists? Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate atheist?
>
> I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive price to you, the consumer.
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be 
> pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet backyard.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>   
>> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>
>>  
>>     
>>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy  
>>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of  
>>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20  
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>> this?  :-P
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>>    
>>>       
>>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/ 
>>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>>
>>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that  
>>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>    
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>  
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Feb 20 19:21:47 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:21:47 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
Message-ID: <55702084-5218-4C43-821F-FCCE3C1892FD@verizon.net>

When I was a child, our home was heated with fuel oil.  The truck would come in the fall and fill the tank with enough oil to last the winter, more or less.

If we kept the heat on "high" and left windows open, the oil would not last the winter, for sure.  So, our parents would remind us to "close the door you are letting the heat out."  And they would tell us to quit turning the thermostat up too high because "we are not made of money."

And we knew that if we put the thermostat to "ON" the furnace would just run and the house would get so warm that it was uncomfortable.  

That wasn't difficult science, it was observable fact.  Even to a child.

The tank of petroleum may be large, but it is finite.  And there is a real cost to pull it out of the ground.  If we keep the petroleum furnace on "HIGH" the planet will get warmer.

What amazes me, is that there really are people who believe that petroleum is essentially an unlimited resource.   And that burning it doesn't affect the temperature of the planet in any fashion.  

David
 
On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:

> ..
> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending with seven years of tribulation.
> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great tribulation, global warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you believe it with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without everyone believing as your leaders have told you it should be. 
> 
> How does this work?



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Feb 20 20:19:50 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:19:50 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B8096A4.2060802@gmail.com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4B7E93BF.1000906@gmail.com>	<126567.2785.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<DF071C3F-D8D4-45F0-AE3C-C944A3C47DB9@teleport.com>	<4B7F3719.1090908@gmail.com>	<197386.14855.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<443359.29539.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B8096A4.2060802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4B547DB-C573-4360-B738-A127059814D4@teleport.com>


On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Although my pet rock comment was only a joke, I have no problem with
> Centre selling rapture pet insurance.   As long as there is a contract
> and people understand what they are signing up for, there is nothing
> wrong with this service.  What they are selling to people who  
> believe in
> the rapture is piece of mind.  Those of us who don't believe in this
> just won't buy it.  Those who do will.
>
> We all buy things that are not needed but they give us a sense of
> happiness, comfort and satisfaction.

Like medical insurance, that may or may not be there when we need it...
>
> Holly T. wrote:
>> Yes, one has to wonder if Centre stays up nights wondering what  
>> will become of his shrewd entrepreneurial exploitation of Rapture  
>> enthusiasts once a little stiff competition rears its ugly head.
>>
>> And, does Centre's contract with those who sign up for his service  
>> offer a cancellation clause as Adam requests? If so, under what  
>> circumstances would such a cancellation clause be valid and  
>> invalid? Like..uh..what if Fido the dog or Bubbles the guppy kicks  
>> the bucket before the Rapture goes down? Do you get all or part of  
>> your money back, or will you simply be left scratching with the  
>> chickens?
>>
>> What about those who sign up as atheist pet god-parents? What  
>> happens if they one day become born again and no longer qualify as  
>> atheists? Is pet god-parenthood then transferred to an alternate  
>> atheist?
>>
>> I see no end to the complications, legal or otherwise.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:16:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Adam, please identify your care requirements and I'm sure I can  
>> tailor my service to meet your needs, all at a very attractive  
>> price to you, the consumer.
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:12:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Forget it.  I'm canceling my service.  I want my pet rocks to be
>> pampered and taken care of, not to sit outside in the cold wet  
>> backyard.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>
>>> Planning a garden wall in the backyard, are you Holly?  ;^)
>>>
>>> On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not at all Adam! In fact, I'm undercutting Centre and I'll be happy
>>>> to sign up on my own to personally care for dozens and dozens of
>>>> those pet rocks of yours for only 50 bucks each over the next 20
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> Holly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 5:35:59 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> Wait, are you saying I'm a sucker to have my pet rock signed up for
>>>> this?  :-P
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> Allen Warren wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/
>>>>> b4167070046047.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
>>>>>
>>>>> Why while reading the above article did I keep thinking of that
>>>>> phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Warren
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Feb 21 09:08:05 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:08:05 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
Message-ID: <100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>

The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two  
fold.
Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary  
evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious  
belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming  
theorists actually hope that they are wrong.



Katie


On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:

> Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a  
> professor in
> a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out  
> how to
> read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But  
> how to
> market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So  
> they set
> up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his  
> head.
> Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for  
> their own
> benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to  
> build
> them the best places in town.
>
> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending  
> with seven
> years of tribulation.
> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great  
> tribulation, global
> warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you  
> believe it
> with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without  
> everyone
> believing as your leaders have told you it should be.
>
> How does this work?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Feb 21 09:20:14 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:20:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million dollers.
Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making scam?
Was it an accident when he glossed over the cooling trend?
don

----- Original Message -----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:08:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two  
fold.
Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary  
evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious  
belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming  
theorists actually hope that they are wrong.



Katie




From admin at ronhowden.com  Sun Feb 21 09:35:25 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:35:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
	<100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000d01cab31c$41fd83b0$c5f88b10$@com>

Katie,

Religion = something a person believes in and follows devotedly.

Ron H.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two  
fold.
Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary  
evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious  
belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming  
theorists actually hope that they are wrong.



Katie


On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:

> Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a  
> professor in
> a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out  
> how to
> read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But  
> how to
> market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So  
> they set
> up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his  
> head.
> Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for  
> their own
> benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to  
> build
> them the best places in town.
>
> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending  
> with seven
> years of tribulation.
> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great  
> tribulation, global
> warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you  
> believe it
> with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without  
> everyone
> believing as your leaders have told you it should be.
>
> How does this work?




From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Feb 21 10:57:36 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:57:36 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <000d01cab31c$41fd83b0$c5f88b10$@com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
	<100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>
	<000d01cab31c$41fd83b0$c5f88b10$@com>
Message-ID: <EF497C52-9676-4F18-BD36-5BDA88ECFD47@verizon.net>


I believe in the tomatoes in my garden and follow them devotedly  but  
I don't call them my religion. Others follow the Trail Blazers.  My  
religion has much higher standards than that definition but I will  
respect you just as much if that is how you really define it.

Katie

On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Ron Howden wrote:

> Katie,
>
> Religion = something a person believes in and follows devotedly.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two
> fold.
> Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary
> evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
> The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious
> belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming
> theorists actually hope that they are wrong.
>
>
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>> Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a
>> professor in
>> a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out
>> how to
>> read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But
>> how to
>> market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So
>> they set
>> up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his
>> head.
>> Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for
>> their own
>> benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to
>> build
>> them the best places in town.
>>
>> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending
>> with seven
>> years of tribulation.
>> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great
>> tribulation, global
>> warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you
>> believe it
>> with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without
>> everyone
>> believing as your leaders have told you it should be.
>>
>> How does this work?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Feb 21 22:24:38 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:24:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <59DB2119-E23C-4F1B-AA84-FAB4FA219749@teleport.com>

Did Gore actually gloss over a "cooling trend?" Or does a "cooling  
trend" actually exist to gloss over? The majority of scientific  
opinion is that it does not. There are cooler years and warmer years,  
but the average global temperature is inexorably creeping upward.  
This is a matter of record.
One might also turn your question around:
Why is it so very important to deny the evidence of global warming?  
Could it be wishful thinking, the simple fear of confronting a  
challenge, or the urge to protect the status quo and extract all  
possible profits from the current energy-guzzling, pollutant-spewing  
industries accused of creating the challenge in the first place?
While ordinary people with no financial stake in the problem might be  
expected to react with fear and denial, major energy corporations may  
be expected to react from greed and cynicism.
So Al Gore's wealth is now $100 million? What is the annual profit of  
even one major energy corporation? What is the annual salary of its  
CEO? I think, on comparison, that you would find Al Gore's fortune,  
supposedly gained over the last two decades by a "money making scam,"  
is mere chicken-feed compared to the bloated annual salary and  
bonuses of energy corporation CEOs-- who make their money by  
continuing to contribute to the threats facing all of us, rich and  
poor alike.


On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:

> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
> dollers.
> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making scam?
> Was it an accident when he glossed over the cooling trend?
> don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:08:05 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two
> fold.
> Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary
> evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
> The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious
> belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming
> theorists actually hope that they are wrong.
>
>
>
> Katie
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Feb 21 22:29:14 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:29:14 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <000d01cab31c$41fd83b0$c5f88b10$@com>
References: <374183.52047.qm@web112103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<000501cab117$3c0057a0$b40106e0$@net>
	<3E747841-3086-407E-AB33-97B9864301A2@verizon.net>
	<74CFB450-DAA1-446F-B5E6-F5CB214D7030@verizon.net>
	<05FED72D-97F4-45F1-A462-23FBC9652E1F@verizon.net>
	<757EBC69-6918-448F-A5F0-5D9933844428@verizon.net>
	<B44027BA-412D-43A1-B47F-62EEC991DE55@verizon.net>
	<0AD1E333-BDB7-45DE-ACF9-1EA9A1F25EAA@teleport.com>
	<002601cab251$76b578e0$64206aa0$@net>
	<100013DA-087B-49E1-9554-39DD95D084D3@verizon.net>
	<000d01cab31c$41fd83b0$c5f88b10$@com>
Message-ID: <B79B8FEC-13EF-42FA-B1B5-3F3EF9953DB8@teleport.com>

Religion = faith in what cannot physically proven, demonstrated or  
seen; belief in the intangible, unknowable and imperceptible. Faith,  
in short, is radically different from knowledge.

On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Ron Howden wrote:

> Katie,
>
> Religion = something a person believes in and follows devotedly.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> The reason why the theory of global warming is not a religion is two
> fold.
> Because science is always open to being falsified when true contrary
> evidence is accumulated, is the first and more technical reason.
> The second, and more important, is because if it was a religious
> belief you would 'know' that you are right, but global warming
> theorists actually hope that they are wrong.
>
>
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>> Religion and political leaders always go together. A quip by a
>> professor in
>> a history class stays with me. There were the guys who figured out
>> how to
>> read the earth. When to plant, when winter comes, and so forth. But
>> how to
>> market this. They weren't accurate, couldn't predict everything. So
>> they set
>> up a fall guy and made him king. If things went bad, Off with his
>> head.
>> Meanwhile, the guys with the information stayed in control for
>> their own
>> benefit by spinning a story about it. They even got the populace to
>> build
>> them the best places in town.
>>
>> You all are making fun of religious belief that the world ending
>> with seven
>> years of tribulation.
>> Yet you also believe that our world will end in a great
>> tribulation, global
>> warming. Your religious leaders tell you this will happen and you
>> believe it
>> with all your energy. The world is not a fair or safe place without
>> everyone
>> believing as your leaders have told you it should be.
>>
>> How does this work?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Feb 22 01:31:33 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:31:33 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>

Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  like Gore do that?

The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.

So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to concerns over global warming.

Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to see a return on their investments in petroleum.

We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ), Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.

I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the sacrifice of American soldiers.

David



On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:

> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million dollers.
> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making scam?
> ...
> don



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 05:34:45 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:34:45 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>

And how much did he get from the PMRC?

Adam

David Morelli wrote:
> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  like Gore do that?
>
> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>
> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to concerns over global warming.
>
> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>
> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ), Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>
> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the sacrifice of American soldiers.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>   
>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million dollers.
>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making scam?
>> ...
>> don
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 22 09:05:01 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:05:01 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>

So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your  
source?
I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,  
implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>
> Adam
>
> David Morelli wrote:
>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone   
>> like Gore do that?
>>
>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the  
>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock  
>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,  
>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in  
>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green  
>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>
>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
>> concerns over global warming.
>>
>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>
>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>
>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>> bank.
>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>>> dollers.
>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>> scam?
>>> ...
>>> don
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 22 10:05:10 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:05:10 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com>

Well and cogently put, David. The problem is, facts no longer matter  
to many ... um... enthusiasts, to put it kindly.
WW

On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:31 AM, David Morelli wrote:

> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone   
> like Gore do that?
>
> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet",  
> served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that  
> became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a  
> board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.   
> The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation  
> Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also  
> invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>
> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
> concerns over global warming.
>
> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>
> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>
> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>> dollers.
>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>> scam?
>> ...
>> don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 10:18:48 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:18:48 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>

The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that 
Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went 
after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was 
inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen 
to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of 
government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first 
began to dislike Al Gore.

I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that 
someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is 
not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your  
> source?
> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,  
> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> David Morelli wrote:
>>     
>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone   
>>> like Gore do that?
>>>
>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the  
>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock  
>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,  
>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in  
>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green  
>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>
>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>
>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>
>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>
>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>>> bank.
>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>>>> dollers.
>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>>> scam?
>>>> ...
>>>> don
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From Jamsm at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 10:29:33 2010
From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:29:33 EST
Subject: [Grovenet] 'Man Caused' Global Warming?
Message-ID: <e48a.228d1806.38b4270d@aol.com>

Global warming was caused by man - hmmm? 
 
Some easy questions that are easy to find the answer to if you  don't know 
the answer already.
Some disjoint claims are obvious when the following questions are  answered 
and can easily show flaws in the thinking of the 'man caused' global  
warming claim.
 
When was 'GREENland discovered?   By who?
Why did  they call it GREENland?
Fact: Greenland is becoming green.
 
When (what year) is it believed that the ancient map that  shows the land 
area of Antarctica made?
In what year were we able to map the land area of Antarctica (recent  
history)?  
 "Some" scientists claim the Antarctica ice is millions of years  old.  Is 
something wrong with this picture?
Just how old is the ice on Antarctica?  Based in what  [flawed] evidence?  
 
There are more questions (can't think of them at the moment; I don't make  
it a point to document all the flaws that I hear related to 'man caused' 
global  warming), these are only a couple for starters.

** I welcome others to bring forth questions that show  discontinuity with 
the 'man caused' claim! **
 
I find it interesting that the 'man caused' global warmers make the  
following claim.
'Most' scientists agree that global warming is man  caused.  
[Scientists that  disagree that "man caused" global  warming are hushed 
and/or discredited by a vocal few.  It stands  to reason, that 'many' 
scientists will want to protect their job and  prestige and not rock the boat when 
certain organizations with power can  destroy  their career if they disagree. 
'Most' in this case are a 'few'  that are backed with money and power.]
 
Evidence keeps showing up that the supposed data used to show that MAN  
caused this global warming trend was not properly pear reviewed and has many  
flaws associated with it.
 
Fact: The actual documented global climate on  record is a very small 
window of Earth's history of weather.  
[Much of the 'man caused' global warming "facts" are based on  
scientifically flawed evidence with lots of assumptions and biased  opinions.  Data has 
been manipulated to prove 'their' desired  idea.  Other data that is  used 
is flawed from the onset - is  based on misguided 'evidence' and theories.]
 
Does  Gore have a major vested interest in furthering the 'man  caused' 
global warming idea to be accepted?
As some might say - A  big Ten-four on that!
He will likely become a multi-billionaire if  certain laws and things  come 
to pass that he is pushing for.
Do you want to trust someone in that position? 
[The oil companies already have what Gore wants.  Extreme wealth!  Sure, 
they want to protect their income; but does that make Gore right -  NO!] 
 
Even the 'man caused' global warmer believers admit that even if man  
changed everything they were doing today - the results of global warming will  
continue!  [We "might" slow the effect ever so little, but to no  avail! 
Probably so little that they could not document the effect properly  through 
'real' science.  They still don't know how to predict weather  changes 
accurately more than a few days at a time and they think that if  they do this or 
that they will have some major effect on the Earth's  climate - LOL.  Man is 
not that omnipotent!]
 
The Grouch
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/22/2010 12:05:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
waltw at teleport.com writes:

So  what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your   
source?
I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against  unbending,  
implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
On Feb 22,  2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> And how much did he get from  the PMRC?
>
> Adam
>
> David Morelli  wrote:
>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.   How does someone   
>> like Gore do  that?
>>
>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have  "created the  
>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to  Google and got stock  
>> options that became worth 20-30  million.  The man who was a geek,  
>> served as a board  member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>>  million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in   
>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green   
>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert  promotion.
>>
>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on  his investments in green  
>> industries if the world turns to  green industries as a response to  
>> concerns over global  warming.
>>
>> Compare that to other people in the energy  industry who expect to  
>> see a return on their investments in  petroleum.
>>
>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like  Condoleezza Rice ),  
>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick  Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and  ask if they actually believed  
>> that the invasion of Iraq was  for the purpose of eliminating  
>> "weapons of mass  destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>> per  year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>
>> I  suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil   
>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the   
>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>
>>  David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20  AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> They may hope they  are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>>  bank.
>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100  million  
>>> dollers.
>>> Does he really believe  what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>>  scam?
>>> ...
>>>  don
>>>
>>


From steelem at pacificu.edu  Mon Feb 22 10:37:45 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:37:45 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

There's a good editorial in today's O about people not accepting facts--in this case, the documented facts of an African-American soldier in WWI.  

One wonders....

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:05 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Well and cogently put, David. The problem is, facts no longer matter  
to many ... um... enthusiasts, to put it kindly.
WW

On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:31 AM, David Morelli wrote:

> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone   
> like Gore do that?
>
> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet",  
> served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that  
> became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a  
> board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.   
> The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation  
> Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also  
> invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>
> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
> concerns over global warming.
>
> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>
> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>
> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>> dollers.
>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>> scam?
>> ...
>> don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Feb 22 11:00:11 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:00:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] 'Man Caused' Global Warming?
In-Reply-To: <e48a.228d1806.38b4270d@aol.com>
References: <e48a.228d1806.38b4270d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0C89A68B-7673-478D-9652-D7F5EF1AA9D1@verizon.net>

Are you concerned about pollution of any kind?
Toxic substances in the air and water?
One confounding variable is that green house gases and all pollutants  
tend to go together.

It's really hard to accept one without the other.
And dependence on foreign sources of energy get tied into the picture  
as well.
I'd be happy to work with anybody who doesn't give a rip about Gore  
if they were willing to work toward importing no oil from the mideast  
to drive our cars and work to reduce the crap (like benzene and  
mercury) that we breathe from burning fossil fuels and work to stop  
bulldozing our eastern mountains till they are flat.
Unfortunately if you don't like war, don't like to breath crap, and  
like your mountains to have points at the top, when you talk about  
alternatives people get all worked up about Al Gore and forget to  
look at the big picture.
Regardless of whether you do or do not believe that we can make a  
difference in the climate, we CAN make a difference in the general  
level of pollution.


Katie


On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> Global warming was caused by man - hmmm?
>
> Some easy questions that are easy to find the answer to if you   
> don't know
> the answer already.
> Some disjoint claims are obvious when the following questions are   
> answered
> and can easily show flaws in the thinking of the 'man caused' global
> warming claim.
>
> When was 'GREENland discovered?   By who?
> Why did  they call it GREENland?
> Fact: Greenland is becoming green.
>
> When (what year) is it believed that the ancient map that  shows  
> the land
> area of Antarctica made?
> In what year were we able to map the land area of Antarctica (recent
> history)?
>  "Some" scientists claim the Antarctica ice is millions of years   
> old.  Is
> something wrong with this picture?
> Just how old is the ice on Antarctica?  Based in what  [flawed]  
> evidence?
>
> There are more questions (can't think of them at the moment; I  
> don't make
> it a point to document all the flaws that I hear related to 'man  
> caused'
> global  warming), these are only a couple for starters.
>
> ** I welcome others to bring forth questions that show   
> discontinuity with
> the 'man caused' claim! **
>
> I find it interesting that the 'man caused' global warmers make the
> following claim.
> 'Most' scientists agree that global warming is man  caused.
> [Scientists that  disagree that "man caused" global  warming are  
> hushed
> and/or discredited by a vocal few.  It stands  to reason, that 'many'
> scientists will want to protect their job and  prestige and not  
> rock the boat when
> certain organizations with power can  destroy  their career if they  
> disagree.
> 'Most' in this case are a 'few'  that are backed with money and  
> power.]
>
> Evidence keeps showing up that the supposed data used to show that MAN
> caused this global warming trend was not properly pear reviewed and  
> has many
> flaws associated with it.
>
> Fact: The actual documented global climate on  record is a very small
> window of Earth's history of weather.
> [Much of the 'man caused' global warming "facts" are based on
> scientifically flawed evidence with lots of assumptions and biased   
> opinions.  Data has
> been manipulated to prove 'their' desired  idea.  Other data that  
> is  used
> is flawed from the onset - is  based on misguided 'evidence' and  
> theories.]
>
> Does  Gore have a major vested interest in furthering the 'man   
> caused'
> global warming idea to be accepted?
> As some might say - A  big Ten-four on that!
> He will likely become a multi-billionaire if  certain laws and  
> things  come
> to pass that he is pushing for.
> Do you want to trust someone in that position?
> [The oil companies already have what Gore wants.  Extreme wealth!   
> Sure,
> they want to protect their income; but does that make Gore right -   
> NO!]
>
> Even the 'man caused' global warmer believers admit that even if man
> changed everything they were doing today - the results of global  
> warming will
> continue!  [We "might" slow the effect ever so little, but to no   
> avail!
> Probably so little that they could not document the effect  
> properly  through
> 'real' science.  They still don't know how to predict weather  changes
> accurately more than a few days at a time and they think that if   
> they do this or
> that they will have some major effect on the Earth's  climate -  
> LOL.  Man is
> not that omnipotent!]
>
> The Grouch
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/22/2010 12:05:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> waltw at teleport.com writes:
>
> So  what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your
> source?
> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against  unbending,
> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
> On Feb 22,  2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>> And how much did he get from  the PMRC?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> David Morelli  wrote:
>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.   How does someone
>>> like Gore do  that?
>>>
>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have  "created the
>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to  Google and got stock
>>> options that became worth 20-30  million.  The man who was a geek,
>>> served as a board  member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
>>>  million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert  promotion.
>>>
>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on  his investments in green
>>> industries if the world turns to  green industries as a response to
>>> concerns over global  warming.
>>>
>>> Compare that to other people in the energy  industry who expect to
>>> see a return on their investments in  petroleum.
>>>
>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like  Condoleezza Rice ),
>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick  Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and  ask if they actually believed
>>> that the invasion of Iraq was  for the purpose of eliminating
>>> "weapons of mass  destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
>>> per  year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>
>>> I  suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20  AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> They may hope they  are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
>>>>  bank.
>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100  million
>>>> dollers.
>>>> Does he really believe  what he says, or is it all a money making
>>>>  scam?
>>>> ...
>>>>  don
>>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Mon Feb 22 11:19:50 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:19:50 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

it is a fact that the earth has cooled the last ten years. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:37:45 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

There's a good editorial in today's O about people not accepting facts--in this case, the documented facts of an African-American soldier in WWI.  

One wonders....

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:05 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Well and cogently put, David. The problem is, facts no longer matter  
to many ... um... enthusiasts, to put it kindly.
WW

On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:31 AM, David Morelli wrote:

> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone   
> like Gore do that?
>
> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet",  
> served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that  
> became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a  
> board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.   
> The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation  
> Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also  
> invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>
> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
> concerns over global warming.
>
> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>
> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>
> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>> dollers.
>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>> scam?
>> ...
>> don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Feb 22 11:31:56 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:31:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4B82DBAC.5070706@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100222/9a405641/attachment.html 

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Feb 22 11:39:25 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:39:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <026201cab3f6$befc6860$3cf53920$@com>

Steve,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Steve
> 
> it is a fact that the earth has cooled the last ten years.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

It's not a fact, actually.  Others with far more time available to properly
research and address claims like this have put together a much more reasoned
and well-rounded argument to the ridiculous claim you (and others) are
making.  So, I'll simply link to a relevant article on the subject.

http://nephyo.xanga.com/718047921/has-the-earth-been-cooling-dramatically-ov
er-the-last-decade/


Jeff



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 11:40:10 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:40:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <795288.71690.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Steve, I've read lots of different articles, with all of them stating the earth has cooled over the last ten years . . . and the earth has warmed over the past ten years.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081111162302AAlFfaE 

Is it the entire earth that's cooled?  Or just the land but not oceans?  Or just the U.S. but not the rest of the world?

Our earth is an extremely complex system.  As an engineer it's so very hard for me to find concrete, irrefutable, repeatable data showing w/o a doubt the earth overall has experienced a cooling climate change for the entire earth.

I know the northern ice cap is melting. We definitely have plenty of data clearly showing the loss in polar ice: http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/.

But overall, I'm reading conflicting reports of the earth overall having cooled the last ten years.  Terribly hard to believe whose data is correct.

 
Allen Warren



________________________________
From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 11:19:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

it is a fact that the earth has cooled the last ten years. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:37:45 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

There's a good editorial in today's O about people not accepting facts--in this case, the documented facts of an African-American soldier in WWI.  

One wonders....

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:05 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Well and cogently put, David. The problem is, facts no longer matter  
to many ... um... enthusiasts, to put it kindly.
WW

On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:31 AM, David Morelli wrote:

> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  
> like Gore do that?
>
> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet",  
> served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that  
> became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a  
> board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.  
> The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation  
> Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also  
> invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>
> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
> concerns over global warming.
>
> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>
> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>
> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the bank.
>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>> dollers.
>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>> scam?
>> ...
>> don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 12:08:00 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:08:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date, still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.

I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he were not profiting so much from his work.

In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things, lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty, fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
 this country largely to escape tyranny.

The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right, I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth. Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the running right there.

Holly




________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that 
Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went 
after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was 
inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen 
to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of 
government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first 
began to dislike Al Gore.

I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that 
someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is 
not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your  
> source?
> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,  
> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>  
>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> David Morelli wrote:
>>    
>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  
>>> like Gore do that?
>>>
>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the  
>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock  
>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,  
>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in  
>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green  
>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>
>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>
>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>
>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>
>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>>> bank.
>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>>>> dollers.
>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>>> scam?
>>>> ...
>>>> don
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From christianamayer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 13:54:50 2010
From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:54:50 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com> 
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com> 
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>

The other thing to note is that Al Gore did not win a Noble Prize in science
he won it for Peace. What does that have to do with climate change?

Christiana

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were involved in
> was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I remember that Tipper
> Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over the whole thing. I don't know how
> much money was earned by all of that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book
> about it. I don't expect the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The
> organization, to date, still has only 22 people from what I can tell from
> the Internet.
>
> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to the
> dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around has been noble.
> I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate the bulk of his fortune to
> furthering the causes he represents? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact
> that he has profited from his causes make him less admirable than he would
> be if he were more philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit
> his message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he were not
> profiting so much from his work.
>
> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far more than
> I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific writer and an
> extremely zealous environmental activist who has taught me more about the
> sorry state of our planet (not to mention the sorry state of civilization)
> than any other person. Each of the several times I have heard him lecture,
> he has had me on the edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I
> understand things, lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California.
> He walks his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The
> answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who used to
> be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become famous enough to
> reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't know. We are a society that
> seems to be drawn more to royalty, fame, and flash than to substance and
> committed activism and integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers
> came to
>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>
> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a politician
> who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right, I have to wonder if
> that messiah would be more like Al Gore than Derrick Jensen. But,
> considering the present evolutionary state our country's population as a
> whole, I don't see Americans getting behind anyone who doesn't represent
> flash, fame, and wealth. Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is,
> just doesn't provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus,
> you have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the running
> right there.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
>  The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that
> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went
> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen
> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of
> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first
> began to dislike Al Gore.
>
> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that
> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is
> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
> > So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your
> > source?
> > I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
> > implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
> > On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
> >
> >
> >> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> David Morelli wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
> >>> like Gore do that?
> >>>
> >>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
> >>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
> >>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,
> >>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
> >>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
> >>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
> >>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
> >>>
> >>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
> >>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
> >>> concerns over global warming.
> >>>
> >>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
> >>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
> >>>
> >>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
> >>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
> >>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
> >>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
> >>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
> >>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
> >>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
> >>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
> >>>> bank.
> >>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
> >>>> dollers.
> >>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
> >>>> scam?
> >>>> ...
> >>>> don
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Christiana
===============================
Christiana Mayer
christianamayer at gmail.com
"Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a
touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
Albert Einstein

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 15:34:26 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:34:26 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>

Holly, thanks for remembering the PMRC, I was starting to feel really 
old there ;-) .

I'm sure that the Gore's didn't profit much from the PMRC, I don't know 
for sure, but what they did caused more damage than good.  It's because 
of this background it makes it hard for me to truly trust what Al Gore 
says now about climate change.  I think it's debatable whether or not he 
has done good.  Yes he has made people address issues including 
pollution, dwindling carbon based natural resources and how we treat our 
planet.  But he is not the best messenger for environmental problems. 
Here's why:
1. He didn't win a Noble prize in science but in peace.  There is a big 
difference between a science award and a peace award.  Granted this is a 
major accomplishment, at the time the Noble peace prize still had 
meaning, something it seems to lack nowadays.
2. His lifestyle is contradictory to what he is saying.  Ironically 
George Bush's ranch in Texas is much more environmental friendly (I 
believe it's heated by geothermal water and is off the electrical grid) 
than Al Gore's residence in Tennessee.  Here is an example of Gore not 
practicing what he preaches and Bush not preaching what he practices.
3. His message comes across as the 'sky is falling' type of dread.  The 
problem with this is that the first time something dire doesn't happen 
people jump all over what was said and don't take any of it seriously.  
You then have people who then claim that it's a complete hoax and then 
the other extreme where people take what he says as gospel.  The truth 
is usually in the middle, you have to look for it.
4. You hear about the problems from Al Gore, how often do you hear 
constructive solutions?  Leonardo DiCaprio on the other hand produced 
The 11th Hour which talked about environmental problems but then spent 
the last thirty minutes talking about solutions.  It has been noted that 
DiCaprio lives a very green lifestyle as well.  The DVD for 11th Hour 
was kept inexpensive and packaged with minimal packaging.
5. As someone who believes in peak oil (peaknik), if we don't make a 
change away from carbon based fuel sources, we're going to run out and 
most of this will be moot anyway.

Of course the elephant in the room is overpopulation.  If that problem 
could be solved then most of our environmental issues would clear up 
overnight.  But there is no easy solution.  So what it boils down to is 
this, how much pollution.  All living things create pollution, the 
question is how much.  If we can reduce our pollution and allow the free 
market on technology come up with solutions, we will survive.  If people 
think that all is lost, that there is no way to fix what has been done, 
then no one will attempt to do anything.  Al Gore has become a lighting 
rod, he should step aside and allow someone else without the negative 
baggage from his past, speak on solutions and not that the world will 
end in five years (as now I'll hear Ziggy Stardust in my head for the 
rest of the day).

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date, still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.
>
> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he were not profiting so much from his work.
>
> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things, lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty, fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>
> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right, I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth. Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the running right there.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that 
> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went 
> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was 
> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen 
> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of 
> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first 
> began to dislike Al Gore.
>
> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that 
> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is 
> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>   
>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your  
>> source?
>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,  
>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>  
>>     
>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>    
>>>       
>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  
>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>
>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the  
>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock  
>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,  
>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in  
>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green  
>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>>
>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>
>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>
>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>         
>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>>>> bank.
>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>>>>> dollers.
>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>>>> scam?
>>>>> ...
>>>>> don
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>    
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>  
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   




From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 15:56:35 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I believe that peace has a lot to do with dependence on foreign oil, Christiana. I believe that dependence on foreign oil is the real reason the US went to war with Iraq and why the US still has a huge military presence there. Worldwide dependence on foreign oil, in turn, has a great deal to do with climate change. As oil-rich nations become richer, many of them have also become more inclined to build a stronger and more threatening military, to develop hugely threatening nuclear capabilities, and to support terrorism. So, I believe that peace is very interconnected with worldwide dependence on petroleum products. And dependence on petroleum products is directly linked to climate change.

Should Al Gore have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize? I personally don't think so. Nor do I think President Obama should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize even though I campaigned for the man. I think Greg Mortenson, founder of Central Asia Institute, should have gotten the prize both times for his work in building secular schools, especially for girls, throughout Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Mongolia. 

See Greg Mortenson's amazing work at https://www.ikat.org/  
Or better yet, you might consider reading his books:

Three Cups of Tea
Stones into Schools

Holly





________________________________
From: Christiana Mayer <christianamayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 1:54:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The other thing to note is that Al Gore did not win a Noble Prize in science
he won it for Peace. What does that have to do with climate change?

Christiana

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were involved in
> was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I remember that Tipper
> Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over the whole thing. I don't know how
> much money was earned by all of that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book
> about it. I don't expect the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The
> organization, to date, still has only 22 people from what I can tell from
> the Internet.
>
> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to the
> dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around has been noble.
> I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate the bulk of his fortune to
> furthering the causes he represents? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact
> that he has profited from his causes make him less admirable than he would
> be if he were more philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit
> his message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he were not
> profiting so much from his work.
>
> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far more than
> I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific writer and an
> extremely zealous environmental activist who has taught me more about the
> sorry state of our planet (not to mention the sorry state of civilization)
> than any other person. Each of the several times I have heard him lecture,
> he has had me on the edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I
> understand things, lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California.
> He walks his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The
> answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who used to
> be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become famous enough to
> reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't know. We are a society that
> seems to be drawn more to royalty, fame, and flash than to substance and
> committed activism and integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers
> came to
>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>
> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a politician
> who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right, I have to wonder if
> that messiah would be more like Al Gore than Derrick Jensen. But,
> considering the present evolutionary state our country's population as a
> whole, I don't see Americans getting behind anyone who doesn't represent
> flash, fame, and wealth. Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is,
> just doesn't provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus,
> you have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the running
> right there.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
>  The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that
> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went
> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen
> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of
> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first
> began to dislike Al Gore.
>
> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that
> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is
> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
> > So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your
> > source?
> > I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
> > implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
> > On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
> >
> >
> >> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> David Morelli wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
> >>> like Gore do that?
> >>>
> >>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
> >>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
> >>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,
> >>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
> >>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
> >>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
> >>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
> >>>
> >>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
> >>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
> >>> concerns over global warming.
> >>>
> >>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
> >>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
> >>>
> >>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
> >>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
> >>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
> >>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
> >>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
> >>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
> >>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
> >>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
> >>>> bank.
> >>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
> >>>> dollers.
> >>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
> >>>> scam?
> >>>> ...
> >>>> don
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Christiana
===============================
Christiana Mayer
christianamayer at gmail.com
"Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a
touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 16:21:17 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <253170.47880.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Many good and interesting points, Adam. 

I agree with you about over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around. Of course no American politician in their right mind would ever suggest enforced birth control as a solution. No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families. I fear we'll have to get as overrun with people as China and India before that ever happens here. As a nation, we're still too tied into exploitive ideas that teach people that it's okay to "go forth and multiply" and that we have "dominion over the earth" to swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control.

But, when you think about it, most Americans do not come from ancestors whose moral teachings lend themselves to living sustainably. Our very roots have not given us such morals. The indigenous people we stole this country from, on the other hand, did practice moral teachings that allowed them to live sustainably. Until Americans learn to pull away from the exploitative roots that most of our ancestors carried to this country, most of us won't ever learn how to live sustainably. Far too many of us won't even see any reason why we need to learn such things. Until, of course, it's too late. 

Holly





________________________________
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 3:34:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Holly, thanks for remembering the PMRC, I was starting to feel really 
old there ;-) .

I'm sure that the Gore's didn't profit much from the PMRC, I don't know 
for sure, but what they did caused more damage than good.  It's because 
of this background it makes it hard for me to truly trust what Al Gore 
says now about climate change.  I think it's debatable whether or not he 
has done good.  Yes he has made people address issues including 
pollution, dwindling carbon based natural resources and how we treat our 
planet.  But he is not the best messenger for environmental problems. 
Here's why:
1. He didn't win a Noble prize in science but in peace.  There is a big 
difference between a science award and a peace award.  Granted this is a 
major accomplishment, at the time the Noble peace prize still had 
meaning, something it seems to lack nowadays.
2. His lifestyle is contradictory to what he is saying.  Ironically 
George Bush's ranch in Texas is much more environmental friendly (I 
believe it's heated by geothermal water and is off the electrical grid) 
than Al Gore's residence in Tennessee.  Here is an example of Gore not 
practicing what he preaches and Bush not preaching what he practices.
3. His message comes across as the 'sky is falling' type of dread.  The 
problem with this is that the first time something dire doesn't happen 
people jump all over what was said and don't take any of it seriously.  
You then have people who then claim that it's a complete hoax and then 
the other extreme where people take what he says as gospel.  The truth 
is usually in the middle, you have to look for it.
4. You hear about the problems from Al Gore, how often do you hear 
constructive solutions?  Leonardo DiCaprio on the other hand produced 
The 11th Hour which talked about environmental problems but then spent 
the last thirty minutes talking about solutions.  It has been noted that 
DiCaprio lives a very green lifestyle as well.  The DVD for 11th Hour 
was kept inexpensive and packaged with minimal packaging.
5. As someone who believes in peak oil (peaknik), if we don't make a 
change away from carbon based fuel sources, we're going to run out and 
most of this will be moot anyway.

Of course the elephant in the room is overpopulation.  If that problem 
could be solved then most of our environmental issues would clear up 
overnight.  But there is no easy solution.  So what it boils down to is 
this, how much pollution.  All living things create pollution, the 
question is how much.  If we can reduce our pollution and allow the free 
market on technology come up with solutions, we will survive.  If people 
think that all is lost, that there is no way to fix what has been done, 
then no one will attempt to do anything.  Al Gore has become a lighting 
rod, he should step aside and allow someone else without the negative 
baggage from his past, speak on solutions and not that the world will 
end in five years (as now I'll hear Ziggy Stardust in my head for the 
rest of the day).

Adam

Holly T. wrote:
> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date, still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.
>
> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he were not profiting so much from his work.
>
> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things, lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty, fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>
> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right, I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth. Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the running right there.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group that 
> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went 
> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was 
> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to listen 
> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of 
> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I first 
> began to dislike Al Gore.
>
> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that 
> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is 
> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>  
>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your  
>> source?
>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,  
>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>  
>>    
>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>    
>>>      
>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone  
>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>
>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the  
>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock  
>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,  
>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10  
>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in  
>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green  
>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>>
>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green  
>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to  
>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>
>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to  
>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>
>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),  
>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil  
>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed  
>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating  
>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions  
>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil  
>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the  
>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>        
>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>>>> bank.
>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million  
>>>>> dollers.
>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making  
>>>>> scam?
>>>>> ...
>>>>> don
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>>>          
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>        
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>    
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>  
>>    
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From khourym at verizon.net  Mon Feb 22 19:07:20 2010
From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:07:20 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] FYI -- Presentation @ PU
Message-ID: <8AE6E125-0DEA-4C88-B627-ADC6B165FCB4@verizon.net>

Tuesday, March  2, 12:00?1:00 pm
Berglund Hall Room 145

Jinesh Varia, Technology Evangelist at Amazon.
?New Technology Trends: Virtulization, Cloud Computing, Web Services?
This presentation will discuss the latest innovations from Amazon.com,  
and will focus on new technology trends including Utility computing  
(Paying by the hour, paying by the Gigabyte usage), Virtualization and  
Web Services in the Cloud, and will discuss some of the innovative  
business models for Start-Ups, Enterprise companies and Universities.  
This interactive discussion will also discuss how these technologies  
are being used in production by many small and large enterprises.
Also, we will see some exciting apps and some unique business models  
that have become profitable businesses and others that are just simply  
cool to see.  For more information on this Education program visit: http://aws.amazon.com/education

Jinesh Varia helps businesses take advantage of disruptive  
technologies, like Cloud Computing,  that are changing the way  
businesses compete in the new web world. Jinesh has spoken at more  
than 100 conferences and User Groups around the world. He is focused  
on furthering awareness of web services and often helps developers and  
architects in Start-ups, Enterprises and Universities leverage  
Amazon?s innovative services.  Jinesh has over 9 years experience in  
XML and Web services and has worked with standards-based working  
groups in XBRL.
FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT: Jeffrey Barlow, barlowj at pacificu.edu OR
Theresa Floyd, floydta at pacificu.edu,  503-352-1466

From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 22 19:37:35 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:37:35 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AE1ABF42-A08A-4F81-85A7-C2194E2DED88@teleport.com>


On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Steve wrote:

> it is a fact that the earth has cooled the last ten years.

But risen over the past 200 years. Scientists tend to take the long  
view, since humans have such short lifespans.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:37:45
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> There's a good editorial in today's O about people not accepting  
> facts--in this case, the documented facts of an African-American  
> soldier in WWI.
>
> One wonders....
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:05 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Well and cogently put, David. The problem is, facts no longer matter
> to many ... um... enthusiasts, to put it kindly.
> WW
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:31 AM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
>> like Gore do that?
>>
>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the internet",
>> served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock options that
>> became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek, served as a
>> board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10 million.
>> The man who is pushing green industry invested in Generation
>> Investment Management which invests in green companies.  He also
>> invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>
>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
>> concerns over global warming.
>>
>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>
>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>
>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the  
>>> bank.
>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
>>> dollers.
>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
>>> scam?
>>> ...
>>> don
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 22 19:45:43 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:45:43 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D8AE0CBC-B148-48EB-ABFE-8D2EDEDA0DC9@teleport.com>

I find it hard to imagine that the Gores made any profit at all from  
PMRC, any more than the rabid Prohibitionists made any money off  
Prohibition. And at any rate, the PMRC hasn't had any discernible  
effect on censoring music, judging from some of the dreck I've heard.  
However, gutter music is something you can vote on with the "off"  
button-- unless you happen to be waiting at a stoplight and one of  
those idiots who cruises through life with his woofers cranked up and  
all his windows cranked down pulls up beside you.

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Holly, thanks for remembering the PMRC, I was starting to feel really
> old there ;-) .
>
> I'm sure that the Gore's didn't profit much from the PMRC, I don't  
> know
> for sure, but what they did caused more damage than good.  It's  
> because
> of this background it makes it hard for me to truly trust what Al Gore
> says now about climate change.  I think it's debatable whether or  
> not he
> has done good.  Yes he has made people address issues including
> pollution, dwindling carbon based natural resources and how we  
> treat our
> planet.  But he is not the best messenger for environmental problems.
> Here's why:
> 1. He didn't win a Noble prize in science but in peace.  There is a  
> big
> difference between a science award and a peace award.  Granted this  
> is a
> major accomplishment, at the time the Noble peace prize still had
> meaning, something it seems to lack nowadays.
> 2. His lifestyle is contradictory to what he is saying.  Ironically
> George Bush's ranch in Texas is much more environmental friendly (I
> believe it's heated by geothermal water and is off the electrical  
> grid)
> than Al Gore's residence in Tennessee.  Here is an example of Gore not
> practicing what he preaches and Bush not preaching what he practices.
> 3. His message comes across as the 'sky is falling' type of dread.   
> The
> problem with this is that the first time something dire doesn't happen
> people jump all over what was said and don't take any of it seriously.
> You then have people who then claim that it's a complete hoax and then
> the other extreme where people take what he says as gospel.  The truth
> is usually in the middle, you have to look for it.
> 4. You hear about the problems from Al Gore, how often do you hear
> constructive solutions?  Leonardo DiCaprio on the other hand produced
> The 11th Hour which talked about environmental problems but then spent
> the last thirty minutes talking about solutions.  It has been noted  
> that
> DiCaprio lives a very green lifestyle as well.  The DVD for 11th Hour
> was kept inexpensive and packaged with minimal packaging.
> 5. As someone who believes in peak oil (peaknik), if we don't make a
> change away from carbon based fuel sources, we're going to run out and
> most of this will be moot anyway.
>
> Of course the elephant in the room is overpopulation.  If that problem
> could be solved then most of our environmental issues would clear up
> overnight.  But there is no easy solution.  So what it boils down  
> to is
> this, how much pollution.  All living things create pollution, the
> question is how much.  If we can reduce our pollution and allow the  
> free
> market on technology come up with solutions, we will survive.  If  
> people
> think that all is lost, that there is no way to fix what has been  
> done,
> then no one will attempt to do anything.  Al Gore has become a  
> lighting
> rod, he should step aside and allow someone else without the negative
> baggage from his past, speak on solutions and not that the world will
> end in five years (as now I'll hear Ziggy Stardust in my head for the
> rest of the day).
>
> Adam
>
> Holly T. wrote:
>> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were  
>> involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I  
>> remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over  
>> the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of  
>> that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect  
>> the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date,  
>> still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.
>>
>> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to  
>> the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around  
>> has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate  
>> the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents?  
>> Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his  
>> causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more  
>> philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his  
>> message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he  
>> were not profiting so much from his work.
>>
>> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far  
>> more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific  
>> writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has  
>> taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention  
>> the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of  
>> the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the  
>> edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things,  
>> lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks  
>> his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The  
>> answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who  
>> used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become  
>> famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't  
>> know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty,  
>> fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and  
>> integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
>>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>>
>> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a  
>> politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right,  
>> I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than  
>> Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state  
>> our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting  
>> behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth.  
>> Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't  
>> provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you  
>> have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the  
>> running right there.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship  
>> group that
>> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They  
>> went
>> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
>> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to  
>> listen
>> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of
>> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I  
>> first
>> began to dislike Al Gore.
>>
>> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is  
>> that
>> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is
>> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>
>>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is  
>>> your
>>> source?
>>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
>>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
>>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>>
>>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
>>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
>>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,
>>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
>>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
>>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
>>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
>>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
>>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
>>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>>
>>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
>>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
>>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
>>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
>>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
>>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
>>>>>> bank.
>>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
>>>>>> dollers.
>>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
>>>>>> scam?
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Feb 22 19:51:23 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:51:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <770AD7DE-DD56-4B69-8747-F43E17B9C5EB@teleport.com>

Does one bad idea invalidate one good one? i don't think so.  
Particularly when the evidence that bad music promotes immorality  
depends on considerably more shaky and anecdotal evidence than does  
climate change. But everyone has a t least one nutty idea. I for  
instance, believe that Chihuahuas are obscene, unnatural and  
revolting and should be banned-- except for their original purpose,  
which was as food for the Aztecs.   ;^)
WW
On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship group  
> that
> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They went
> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to  
> listen
> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of
> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I  
> first
> began to dislike Al Gore.
>
> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is that
> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is
> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is your
>> source?
>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>
>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,
>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>>
>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>
>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>
>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
>>>>> bank.
>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
>>>>> dollers.
>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
>>>>> scam?
>>>>> ...
>>>>> don
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 20:24:57 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:24:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <D8AE0CBC-B148-48EB-ABFE-8D2EDEDA0DC9@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
	<D8AE0CBC-B148-48EB-ABFE-8D2EDEDA0DC9@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B835899.8020109@gmail.com>

Jello Biafra from the Dead Kennedys suffered as well as many other punk 
and hardcore bands and labels in the 80's.  He goes into great detail on 
his spoken word album No More Coconuts as well as many speaking 
engagements he did in the late 1980's.  He would read the letters he 
wrote to Tipper Gore and the responses she sent back, boy were they 
funny and somewhat scary.  The PMRC wouldn't sue Atlantic or Warner 
Brothers or other large record labels, but went after the small ones 
like Alternative Tentacles or Mordan Records who couldn't afford massive 
legal fees.

I'm sure they didn't make a profit, but censorship is still 
unconstitutional and they were wrong.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> I find it hard to imagine that the Gores made any profit at all from  
> PMRC, any more than the rabid Prohibitionists made any money off  
> Prohibition. And at any rate, the PMRC hasn't had any discernible  
> effect on censoring music, judging from some of the dreck I've heard.  
> However, gutter music is something you can vote on with the "off"  
> button-- unless you happen to be waiting at a stoplight and one of  
> those idiots who cruises through life with his woofers cranked up and  
> all his windows cranked down pulls up beside you.
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> Holly, thanks for remembering the PMRC, I was starting to feel really
>> old there ;-) .
>>
>> I'm sure that the Gore's didn't profit much from the PMRC, I don't  
>> know
>> for sure, but what they did caused more damage than good.  It's  
>> because
>> of this background it makes it hard for me to truly trust what Al Gore
>> says now about climate change.  I think it's debatable whether or  
>> not he
>> has done good.  Yes he has made people address issues including
>> pollution, dwindling carbon based natural resources and how we  
>> treat our
>> planet.  But he is not the best messenger for environmental problems.
>> Here's why:
>> 1. He didn't win a Noble prize in science but in peace.  There is a  
>> big
>> difference between a science award and a peace award.  Granted this  
>> is a
>> major accomplishment, at the time the Noble peace prize still had
>> meaning, something it seems to lack nowadays.
>> 2. His lifestyle is contradictory to what he is saying.  Ironically
>> George Bush's ranch in Texas is much more environmental friendly (I
>> believe it's heated by geothermal water and is off the electrical  
>> grid)
>> than Al Gore's residence in Tennessee.  Here is an example of Gore not
>> practicing what he preaches and Bush not preaching what he practices.
>> 3. His message comes across as the 'sky is falling' type of dread.   
>> The
>> problem with this is that the first time something dire doesn't happen
>> people jump all over what was said and don't take any of it seriously.
>> You then have people who then claim that it's a complete hoax and then
>> the other extreme where people take what he says as gospel.  The truth
>> is usually in the middle, you have to look for it.
>> 4. You hear about the problems from Al Gore, how often do you hear
>> constructive solutions?  Leonardo DiCaprio on the other hand produced
>> The 11th Hour which talked about environmental problems but then spent
>> the last thirty minutes talking about solutions.  It has been noted  
>> that
>> DiCaprio lives a very green lifestyle as well.  The DVD for 11th Hour
>> was kept inexpensive and packaged with minimal packaging.
>> 5. As someone who believes in peak oil (peaknik), if we don't make a
>> change away from carbon based fuel sources, we're going to run out and
>> most of this will be moot anyway.
>>
>> Of course the elephant in the room is overpopulation.  If that problem
>> could be solved then most of our environmental issues would clear up
>> overnight.  But there is no easy solution.  So what it boils down  
>> to is
>> this, how much pollution.  All living things create pollution, the
>> question is how much.  If we can reduce our pollution and allow the  
>> free
>> market on technology come up with solutions, we will survive.  If  
>> people
>> think that all is lost, that there is no way to fix what has been  
>> done,
>> then no one will attempt to do anything.  Al Gore has become a  
>> lighting
>> rod, he should step aside and allow someone else without the negative
>> baggage from his past, speak on solutions and not that the world will
>> end in five years (as now I'll hear Ziggy Stardust in my head for the
>> rest of the day).
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Holly T. wrote:
>>     
>>> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were  
>>> involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I  
>>> remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over  
>>> the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of  
>>> that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect  
>>> the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date,  
>>> still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.
>>>
>>> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to  
>>> the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around  
>>> has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate  
>>> the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents?  
>>> Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his  
>>> causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more  
>>> philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his  
>>> message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he  
>>> were not profiting so much from his work.
>>>
>>> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far  
>>> more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific  
>>> writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has  
>>> taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention  
>>> the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of  
>>> the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the  
>>> edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things,  
>>> lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks  
>>> his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The  
>>> answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who  
>>> used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become  
>>> famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't  
>>> know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty,  
>>> fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and  
>>> integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
>>>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>>>
>>> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a  
>>> politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right,  
>>> I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than  
>>> Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state  
>>> our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting  
>>> behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth.  
>>> Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't  
>>> provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you  
>>> have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the  
>>> running right there.
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship  
>>> group that
>>> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They  
>>> went
>>> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
>>> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to  
>>> listen
>>> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the power of
>>> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I  
>>> first
>>> began to dislike Al Gore.
>>>
>>> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is  
>>> that
>>> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor others is
>>> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is  
>>>> your
>>>> source?
>>>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
>>>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
>>>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
>>>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
>>>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a geek,
>>>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth 4-10
>>>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
>>>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
>>>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert promotion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in green
>>>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a response to
>>>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who expect to
>>>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
>>>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>>>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
>>>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
>>>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was Billions
>>>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and oil
>>>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>>>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
>>>>>>> bank.
>>>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
>>>>>>> dollers.
>>>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money making
>>>>>>> scam?
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Feb 22 23:16:53 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:16:53 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] 'Man Caused' Global Warming?
In-Reply-To: <e48a.228d1806.38b4270d@aol.com>
References: <e48a.228d1806.38b4270d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7590F6DF-5EDA-4D51-9900-003C5A67F67C@verizon.net>


On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> Global warming was caused by man - hmmm? 
In prior global warming events, natural CO2 (volcanoes) magnified warming brought on by other natural factors (sunlight, continental drift, etc.) AFTER those factors initiated the global warming event.  
In our current environment, CO2 increase (human caused) creating warming BEFORE the other natural factors.  
The change from trailing marker to leading marker is human caused.  


> When was 'GREENland discovered?  By who?
10th century by Gunnbjorn Ulfsson (perhaps), and claimed by Erik the Red c.985.
> Why did  they call it GREENland? 
  Erik the Red was credited with that, "He named the land Greenland, saying that people would be eager to go there if it had a good name." i.e. a real estate salesman doing his job.

> When (what year) is it believed that the ancient map that  shows the land area of Antarctica made?
150 B.C, the Ptolemy map, which was revised and republished up to 1785 shows the Antarctic land mass.   Except that it was part of Africa and generally came as far North as 20 degrees South latitude.  That wasn't exceptionally accurate.  Do you have some other map in mind?

> "Some" scientists claim the Antarctica ice is millions of years  old.  Is something wrong with this picture?
> Just how old is the ice on Antarctica?  Based in what  [flawed] evidence?
We all know that the ice cannot be older than the earth, which was created in 4004 B.C.  Unless you read the Septuagint, in which case the world was created in 5004 B.C.  Something about the Bible not contradicting itself there.

> ...
> ** I welcome others to bring forth questions that show  discontinuity with the 'man caused' claim! **
the historic relation between CO2 and temperature shows that the planet's temperature would rise due to solar actions which drives biological and weather responses.  These responses would result in releases of water and soil sequestered CO2.  This released CO2 combined with average natural CO2 discharge from volcanoes to provides a "feed back" to amplify the solar changes.

The current situation is qualitatively different.  Man released CO2 is magnifying the solar collection, independent of the solar action.  As the solar action changes, the consequences will be magnified.  That is the discontinuity that is 'man caused'.

Solar change -> CO2 release -> heat increase 
 vs.
CO2 release -> heat increase -> plus solar change -> more CO2 release -> bigger heat increase

> ...It stands  to reason, that 'many' scientists will want to protect their job and  prestige and not rock the boat when 
> certain organizations with power can  destroy  their career if they disagree. 'Most' in this case are a 'few'  that are backed with money and power.
That statement is so BUSH.  
What you describe occurred within the government during the Bush administration, to those who objected to the administration's version of the truth.  
e.g. Dr. James E. Hansen, NASA climate scientist on global warming.
Other areas are FDA on anti-depressants and childhood suicide, E.P.A. and mercury hazard to pregnancies, lead exposure, F.D.A on product approval before testing,  National Cancer Institute on breast cancer and abortion, National Institutes of Health on condoms and sexually transmitted diseases, Council on Bio-Ethics on stem cell research, etc.

> Does  Gore have a major vested interest in furthering the 'man  caused' global warming idea to be accepted?
Absolutely.  I do as well.  You may die before the damage is fatal, but my grand children are expected to live long enough to encounter the down side of global warming.

> He will likely become a multi-billionaire if  certain laws and things  come to pass that he is pushing for.
> Do you want to trust someone in that position? 
Is this like the claim that the stock options he got from internet and computer companies is tied to his global warming position?
Warren Buffet stands to make a ton of money from investing in energy systems.  Does that make the underlying premise wrong?
T Boone Pickens has invested heavily in wind sites as energy sources.  Does that make the program wrong?

> [The oil companies already have what Gore wants.  Extreme wealth!  Sure, they want to protect their income; but does that make Gore right -  NO!] 
Does the fact that oil tycoons are rich make them right?  Basic question, "does the accumulation of wealth prove that someone is correct in their opinions?"  

> Even the 'man caused' global warmer believers admit that even if man changed everything they were doing today - the results of global warming will continue!  
That is correct.  It is like the Exxon Valdez sailing toward the reef, it takes a long time to stop the forward motion.  And just like the Exxon Valdez, someone else will pay for the clean up.  Someone else will have their lives ruined because some oil company executive choose to play fast and loose.

> [We "might" slow the effect ever so little, but to no  avail!  Probably so little that they could not document the effect properly through 'real' science.  They still don't know how to predict weather  changes accurately more than a few days at a time and they think that if  they do this or that they will have some major effect on the Earth's  climate - LOL.  Man is not that omnipotent!]
When this issue was first raised, your sources denied that it even existed.  That is how good their science was.  Now that the majority of climate scientists see confirming evidence of the issue, the "river crowd" flops from "it doesn't exist" to "it is too late to do anything".  
Get better sources, find people who aren't swimming in da' Nile.
> 
> The Grouch

From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Feb 23 00:30:13 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:30:13 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net><538F7572-8B15-4581-BA5E-CCDFE9C36254@teleport.com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D4E8C091@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<332178008-1266866393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1495154691-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <C5256C51-C195-46C6-9B0D-F94B595596DC@verizon.net>


On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Steve wrote:

> it is a fact that the earth has cooled the last ten years. 


I guess the cooling missed the United States.  But, that may be related to our CO2 emissions.

In the US, it would be accurate to say "there has been one cool year in the last ten years" and that was above the 105 year mean temperature.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has published a graph of the National (Contiguous US) yearly temperature from 1895 to 2010.  It shows that every year since Jan 1999 was above the 105 year "long term mean".

Only 2009 had a temperature that was below the running short term average for ANY time before Jan 1999.

Four of those years were higher than ANY other year on the graph.  And, only 1935 was hotter than two more.

So that means, in the last one hundred years, six of the hottest seven years were since Jan 1999.  

What is the "cooling" in that? 

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/get-file.php?report=national&image=timeseries02&byear=2009&bmonth=02&year=2010&month=01&ext=gif&id=110-00

David


From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Feb 23 00:41:46 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:41:46 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> I believe that peace has a lot to do with dependence on foreign oil, Christiana. I believe that dependence on foreign oil is the real reason the US went to war with Iraq and why the US still has a huge military presence there. Worldwide dependence on foreign oil, in turn, has a great deal to do with climate change. As oil-rich nations become richer, many of them have also become more inclined to build a stronger and more threatening military, to develop hugely threatening nuclear capabilities, and to support terrorism. So, I believe that peace is very interconnected with worldwide dependence on petroleum products. And dependence on petroleum products is directly linked to climate change.
> 
> Should Al Gore have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize? I personally don't think so. Nor do I think President Obama should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize even though I campaigned for the man. I think Greg Mortenson, founder of Central Asia Institute, should have gotten the prize both times for his work in building secular schools, especially for girls, throughout Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Mongolia. 
> 
> See Greg Mortenson's amazing work at https://www.ikat.org/  
> Or better yet, you might consider reading his books:
> 
> Three Cups of Tea
> Stones into Schools
> 
> Holly

> -- 
> Christiana
> ===============================
> Christiana Mayer
> christianamayer at gmail.com
> "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
> Albert Einstein



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Feb 23 04:07:57 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:07:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Rosie Greeting For You
Message-ID: <29819-4B83C51D-667@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Have A Good Tuesday :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/butterflytues.html

in-case anyone is wondering why the new @ .. well it seems the grovenet
bounced me out, why I'm not sure, but no matter, ya ain't lost the Hoss
yet.

by the bye ..Bud..
after we talked ... it was another 2 hours before I saw the saw bones.
I have decided not to have the shoulder replaced, and least not yet. 
There is a new procedure that is available now... I don't know the exact
name of it, but it amounts to is ... some way, some how new cartilage is
inserted in the rotary cuff. I still need to find out more about it, and
will later today.

~A~:?)




From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 08:01:05 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:01:05 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>

If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
need the schools.

[sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
going from memory.]

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 09:01:04 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:01:04 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B835899.8020109@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<4B831482.7000505@gmail.com>
	<D8AE0CBC-B148-48EB-ABFE-8D2EDEDA0DC9@teleport.com>
	<4B835899.8020109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F4940FC-E3D4-4CC1-BAD7-45BCD9DEA90E@teleport.com>

Yep. If anything, they probably encouraged rebellion. And although  
PMRC activities were probably unconstitutional at bottom, it would  
have taken an expensive court case, appealed to the higher courts, to  
establish that.  I'm not so sure that would happen today, with a  
reactionary majority on the Supreme Court... if a corporation can  
become a "person," then "free speech" can also become "unprotected."

On Feb 22, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Jello Biafra from the Dead Kennedys suffered as well as many other  
> punk
> and hardcore bands and labels in the 80's.  He goes into great  
> detail on
> his spoken word album No More Coconuts as well as many speaking
> engagements he did in the late 1980's.  He would read the letters he
> wrote to Tipper Gore and the responses she sent back, boy were they
> funny and somewhat scary.  The PMRC wouldn't sue Atlantic or Warner
> Brothers or other large record labels, but went after the small ones
> like Alternative Tentacles or Mordan Records who couldn't afford  
> massive
> legal fees.
>
> I'm sure they didn't make a profit, but censorship is still
> unconstitutional and they were wrong.
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> I find it hard to imagine that the Gores made any profit at all from
>> PMRC, any more than the rabid Prohibitionists made any money off
>> Prohibition. And at any rate, the PMRC hasn't had any discernible
>> effect on censoring music, judging from some of the dreck I've heard.
>> However, gutter music is something you can vote on with the "off"
>> button-- unless you happen to be waiting at a stoplight and one of
>> those idiots who cruises through life with his woofers cranked up and
>> all his windows cranked down pulls up beside you.
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Holly, thanks for remembering the PMRC, I was starting to feel  
>>> really
>>> old there ;-) .
>>>
>>> I'm sure that the Gore's didn't profit much from the PMRC, I don't
>>> know
>>> for sure, but what they did caused more damage than good.  It's
>>> because
>>> of this background it makes it hard for me to truly trust what Al  
>>> Gore
>>> says now about climate change.  I think it's debatable whether or
>>> not he
>>> has done good.  Yes he has made people address issues including
>>> pollution, dwindling carbon based natural resources and how we
>>> treat our
>>> planet.  But he is not the best messenger for environmental  
>>> problems.
>>> Here's why:
>>> 1. He didn't win a Noble prize in science but in peace.  There is a
>>> big
>>> difference between a science award and a peace award.  Granted this
>>> is a
>>> major accomplishment, at the time the Noble peace prize still had
>>> meaning, something it seems to lack nowadays.
>>> 2. His lifestyle is contradictory to what he is saying.  Ironically
>>> George Bush's ranch in Texas is much more environmental friendly (I
>>> believe it's heated by geothermal water and is off the electrical
>>> grid)
>>> than Al Gore's residence in Tennessee.  Here is an example of  
>>> Gore not
>>> practicing what he preaches and Bush not preaching what he  
>>> practices.
>>> 3. His message comes across as the 'sky is falling' type of dread.
>>> The
>>> problem with this is that the first time something dire doesn't  
>>> happen
>>> people jump all over what was said and don't take any of it  
>>> seriously.
>>> You then have people who then claim that it's a complete hoax and  
>>> then
>>> the other extreme where people take what he says as gospel.  The  
>>> truth
>>> is usually in the middle, you have to look for it.
>>> 4. You hear about the problems from Al Gore, how often do you hear
>>> constructive solutions?  Leonardo DiCaprio on the other hand  
>>> produced
>>> The 11th Hour which talked about environmental problems but then  
>>> spent
>>> the last thirty minutes talking about solutions.  It has been noted
>>> that
>>> DiCaprio lives a very green lifestyle as well.  The DVD for 11th  
>>> Hour
>>> was kept inexpensive and packaged with minimal packaging.
>>> 5. As someone who believes in peak oil (peaknik), if we don't make a
>>> change away from carbon based fuel sources, we're going to run  
>>> out and
>>> most of this will be moot anyway.
>>>
>>> Of course the elephant in the room is overpopulation.  If that  
>>> problem
>>> could be solved then most of our environmental issues would clear up
>>> overnight.  But there is no easy solution.  So what it boils down
>>> to is
>>> this, how much pollution.  All living things create pollution, the
>>> question is how much.  If we can reduce our pollution and allow the
>>> free
>>> market on technology come up with solutions, we will survive.  If
>>> people
>>> think that all is lost, that there is no way to fix what has been
>>> done,
>>> then no one will attempt to do anything.  Al Gore has become a
>>> lighting
>>> rod, he should step aside and allow someone else without the  
>>> negative
>>> baggage from his past, speak on solutions and not that the world  
>>> will
>>> end in five years (as now I'll hear Ziggy Stardust in my head for  
>>> the
>>> rest of the day).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Holly T. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, Adam, that whole music censoring deal that the Gores were
>>>> involved in was pretty controversial at the time. I remember. I
>>>> remember that Tipper Gore became a bit of a laughing stock over
>>>> the whole thing. I don't know how much money was earned by all of
>>>> that. I do know that Tipper wrote a book about it. I don't expect
>>>> the Gores made a bundle over the deal. The organization, to date,
>>>> still has only 22 people from what I can tell from the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the work that Al Gore has done to open people's eyes to
>>>> the dangers of climate change and the need to turn things around
>>>> has been noble. I admire the man. Would I prefer that he donate
>>>> the bulk of his fortune to furthering the causes he represents?
>>>> Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does the fact that he has profited from his
>>>> causes make him less admirable than he would be if he were more
>>>> philanthropic? Yes. Resoundingly YES. Does that discredit his
>>>> message? Not at all. I see no connection. Even though I wish he
>>>> were not profiting so much from his work.
>>>>
>>>> In contrast, I admire radical environmentalist Derrick Jensen far
>>>> more than I do Al Gore. He is an extremely talented and prolific
>>>> writer and an extremely zealous environmental activist who has
>>>> taught me more about the sorry state of our planet (not to mention
>>>> the sorry state of civilization) than any other person. Each of
>>>> the several times I have heard him lecture, he has had me on the
>>>> edge of my chair the entire time. The man, as I understand things,
>>>> lives like a pauper in the woods of Northern California. He walks
>>>> his talk. Which man is more well known throughout the world? The
>>>> answer is obvious: The flashier, more famous, more wealthy one who
>>>> used to be VP. But, could someone like Derrick Jensen ever become
>>>> famous enough to reach as many people as Al Gore has? I don't
>>>> know. We are a society that seems to be drawn more to royalty,
>>>> fame, and flash than to substance and committed activism and
>>>> integrity. In spite of the fact that our forefathers came to
>>>>  this country largely to escape tyranny.
>>>>
>>>> The Jews believe that when the messiah comes, he/she will be a
>>>> politician who teaches people to live in peace. If they're right,
>>>> I have to wonder if that messiah would be more like Al Gore than
>>>> Derrick Jensen. But, considering the present evolutionary state
>>>> our country's population as a whole, I don't see Americans getting
>>>> behind anyone who doesn't represent flash, fame, and wealth.
>>>> Someone like Derrick Jensen, as noble as he is, just doesn't
>>>> provide enough entertainment factor for most Americans. Plus, you
>>>> have to read a lot to get his message. That puts him out of the
>>>> running right there.
>>>>
>>>> Holly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 10:18:48 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> The PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) was a pro-censorship
>>>> group that
>>>> Tipper and Al Gore were main leaders of back in the 1980's.  They
>>>> went
>>>> after mostly small record labels of music that they felt was
>>>> inappropriate and advocated that people should not be allowed to
>>>> listen
>>>> to.  They did a lot of fundraising, and attempted to use the  
>>>> power of
>>>> government to censor art, in this case musicians.  This is when I
>>>> first
>>>> began to dislike Al Gore.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how much money he made off the PMRC but the point is
>>>> that
>>>> someone who spent a lot of time and energy trying to censor  
>>>> others is
>>>> not someone whose opinion I will trust completely.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So what's the PMRC, what's the accusation this time, and what is
>>>>> your
>>>>> source?
>>>>> I really do get tired of trying to apply reason against unbending,
>>>>> implacable, blind and deaf doctrine...
>>>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> And how much did he get from the PMRC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Morelli wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gore's net worth?  Estimated at $100 million.  How does someone
>>>>>>> like Gore do that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The man falsely accused of claiming to have "created the
>>>>>>> internet", served as a pre IPO advisor to Google and got stock
>>>>>>> options that became worth 20-30 million.  The man who was a  
>>>>>>> geek,
>>>>>>> served as a board member to Apple and got stock options worth  
>>>>>>> 4-10
>>>>>>> million.  The man who is pushing green industry invested in
>>>>>>> Generation Investment Management which invests in green
>>>>>>> companies.  He also invested in Current TV and concert  
>>>>>>> promotion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, yes he does stand to see a return on his investments in  
>>>>>>> green
>>>>>>> industries if the world turns to green industries as a  
>>>>>>> response to
>>>>>>> concerns over global warming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Compare that to other people in the energy industry who  
>>>>>>> expect to
>>>>>>> see a return on their investments in petroleum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We could look at Chevron executives ( like Condoleezza Rice ),
>>>>>>> Halliburton executives ( like Dick Cheney ) and Arbusto Oil
>>>>>>> executives ( like G. W. Bush ) and ask if they actually believed
>>>>>>> that the invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of eliminating
>>>>>>> "weapons of mass destruction"?  Their industry's take was  
>>>>>>> Billions
>>>>>>> per year in additional profits, thanks to that war.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose one big difference between Gore making millions and  
>>>>>>> oil
>>>>>>> companies making Billions, is that Gore doesn't require the
>>>>>>> sacrifice of American soldiers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:20 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They may hope they are wrong, but still sing all the way to the
>>>>>>>> bank.
>>>>>>>> In ten years Al Gore net worth has jumped from 1 to 100 million
>>>>>>>> dollers.
>>>>>>>> Does he really believe what he says, or is it all a money  
>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>> scam?
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> don
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 09:21:31 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:21:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
Message-ID: <615AB12E-B3E4-4B51-BC8F-24F7ADA86924@teleport.com>

You're joking, right?
Patriarchal, tribal societies and religions (like Islam and  
fundamentalist Christianity) are obsessed with males "proving"  
themselves by having as many children as possible. Try to interfere  
with that, and you'll have a backlash that will make 9-11 look like a  
Sunday bridge party at an old folks home.
China, and to a much lesser extent India, have had some success, but  
they are the exception.
On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:01 AM, Steven wrote:

> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we  
> wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.  
> Just
> going from memory.]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>
> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to  
> build
> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>
> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and  
> artillery
> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 09:26:51 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:26:51 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <615AB12E-B3E4-4B51-BC8F-24F7ADA86924@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
	<615AB12E-B3E4-4B51-BC8F-24F7ADA86924@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <001c01cab4ad$637d7a30$2a786e90$@net>

Ask Holly. I only read the idea. She has it figured out better. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:22 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

You're joking, right?
Patriarchal, tribal societies and religions (like Islam and  
fundamentalist Christianity) are obsessed with males "proving"  
themselves by having as many children as possible. Try to interfere  
with that, and you'll have a backlash that will make 9-11 look like a  
Sunday bridge party at an old folks home.
China, and to a much lesser extent India, have had some success, but  
they are the exception.
On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:01 AM, Steven wrote:

> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we  
> wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.  
> Just
> going from memory.]



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 09:40:30 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:40:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
Message-ID: <52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of Central Asia.

I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong directions.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
need the schools.

[sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
going from memory.]

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 10:07:29 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:07:29 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>

Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
schools.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
Central Asia.

I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
directions.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
need the schools.

[sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
going from memory.]

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:25:00 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:25:00 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>
Message-ID: <4B841D7C.8060806@gmail.com>

Steven,

Holly was responding to a post I made where she said:

I agree with you about over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around. Of course no American politician in their right mind would ever suggest enforced birth control as a solution. No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families. I fear we'll have to get as overrun with people as China and India before that ever happens here. As a nation, we're still too tied into exploitive ideas that teach people that it's okay to "go forth and multiply" and that we have "dominion over the earth" to swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control.

I read this to mean that you can't force birth control since no 
politician would try to legislate it and only when we start reaching the 
level of China and India will there be any attempt to try and educate 
the public on reducing their families.  That's what I though Holly was 
saying, we'll have to address this later but no one wants to talk about 
it now, not that the government should force birth control upon us.

Adam

Steven wrote:
> Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
> use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
> that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
> But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
> schools.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
> Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
> learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
> educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
> community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
> turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
> girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
> voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
> of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
> Central Asia.
>
> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
> But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
> limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
> of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
> planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
> will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
> course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
> directions.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
> going from memory.]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>
> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  
>
> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 10:31:24 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:31:24 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>

Yep, yep and yep!
Educating women-- and the availability of electricity and  
television-- are recognized as highly influential in reducing birth  
rates in developing countries.
On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Holly T. wrote:

> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds  
> schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls-- 
> is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region,  
> if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a  
> girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in  
> turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One  
> of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more  
> education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily  
> limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of  
> Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people  
> of Central Asia.
>
> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth  
> control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about  
> the importance of limiting births--both for their personal  
> betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people  
> do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually  
> become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt,  
> become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course,  
> Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with  
> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong  
> directions.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we  
> wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.  
> Just
> going from memory.]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>
> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to  
> build
> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>
> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and  
> artillery
> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:32:54 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:32:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>

But the trade off is that you increase their carbon footprint.

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Yep, yep and yep!
> Educating women-- and the availability of electricity and  
> television-- are recognized as highly influential in reducing birth  
> rates in developing countries.
> On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>
>   
>> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds  
>> schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls-- 
>> is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region,  
>> if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a  
>> girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in  
>> turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One  
>> of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more  
>> education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily  
>> limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of  
>> Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people  
>> of Central Asia.
>>
>> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth  
>> control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about  
>> the importance of limiting births--both for their personal  
>> betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people  
>> do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually  
>> become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt,  
>> become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course,  
>> Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with  
>> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong  
>> directions.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we  
>> wouldn't
>> need the schools.
>>
>> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.  
>> Just
>> going from memory.]
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>>
>> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to  
>> build
>> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>>
>> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and  
>> artillery
>> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 10:45:17 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:45:17 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>
	<4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC762AF4-55E5-4ED2-AC09-866265F4182E@teleport.com>

Actually, third-world countries are responsible for a lot of  
environmental degradation and climate change when they become  
overpopulated... through destruction of water resources, forests and  
grazing land, etc.

On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:32 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> But the trade off is that you increase their carbon footprint.
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Yep, yep and yep!
>> Educating women-- and the availability of electricity and
>> television-- are recognized as highly influential in reducing birth
>> rates in developing countries.
>> On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds
>>> schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--
>>> is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region,
>>> if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a
>>> girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in
>>> turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One
>>> of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more
>>> education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily
>>> limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of
>>> Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people
>>> of Central Asia.
>>>
>>> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth
>>> control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about
>>> the importance of limiting births--both for their personal
>>> betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people
>>> do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually
>>> become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt,
>>> become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course,
>>> Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
>>> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
>>> directions.
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we
>>> wouldn't
>>> need the schools.
>>>
>>> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.
>>> Just
>>> going from memory.]
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>>>
>>> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to
>>> build
>>> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>>>
>>> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and
>>> artillery
>>> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:59:41 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:59:41 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <AC762AF4-55E5-4ED2-AC09-866265F4182E@teleport.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>	<4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>
	<AC762AF4-55E5-4ED2-AC09-866265F4182E@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B84259D.1020200@gmail.com>

That is very true, but as they become industrialized and their 
population shrinks, the amount of energy they use will increase.  In 
America it's rare to see a family that has more than three children.  In 
other parts of the world it's rare to see a family with less than ten 
children.  As a nation becomes industrialized there is less need to have 
so many children.  But providing them the lifestyle like that we have 
here uses much more energy and resources per person.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are suffering from 
overpopulation and if we reduce it we will probably continue to suffer.  
Sorry not a very cheerful concept. :'(

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Actually, third-world countries are responsible for a lot of  
> environmental degradation and climate change when they become  
> overpopulated... through destruction of water resources, forests and  
> grazing land, etc.
>
> On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:32 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> But the trade off is that you increase their carbon footprint.
>>
>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>     
>>> Yep, yep and yep!
>>> Educating women-- and the availability of electricity and
>>> television-- are recognized as highly influential in reducing birth
>>> rates in developing countries.
>>> On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds
>>>> schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--
>>>> is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region,
>>>> if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a
>>>> girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in
>>>> turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One
>>>> of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more
>>>> education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily
>>>> limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of
>>>> Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people
>>>> of Central Asia.
>>>>
>>>> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth
>>>> control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about
>>>> the importance of limiting births--both for their personal
>>>> betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people
>>>> do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually
>>>> become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt,
>>>> become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course,
>>>> Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
>>>> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
>>>> directions.
>>>>
>>>> Holly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> need the schools.
>>>>
>>>> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.
>>>> Just
>>>> going from memory.]
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>>>>
>>>> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to
>>>> build
>>>> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and
>>>> artillery
>>>> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb 23 11:33:29 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:33:29 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Climate Change (fka "Global Warming")
Message-ID: <4B842D89.8070900@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100223/433300f9/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: moz-screenshot-2.png
Type: image/png
Size: 4946 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100223/433300f9/attachment.png 

From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 12:21:40 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:21:40 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B84259D.1020200@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>	<4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>
	<AC762AF4-55E5-4ED2-AC09-866265F4182E@teleport.com>
	<4B84259D.1020200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70B985DE-14D8-41A7-95AE-C0E7C8FE41F3@teleport.com>

Sad to say, you are correct about the effects of industrialization. A  
smaller population would at least require less industrialization, but  
a huge population like China's is going to keep increasing its carbon  
footprint for decades.
Considering the sheer inertia of the big-energy interests, and the  
lack of international will for Manhattan Project-scale searches for  
cleaner energy, I fear we may end up taking the consequences from  
Mother Nature-- who does not negotiate-- and end up with a much  
smaller world population, living at 18th-century cultural levels on a  
smaller portion of the planet.

On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> That is very true, but as they become industrialized and their
> population shrinks, the amount of energy they use will increase.  In
> America it's rare to see a family that has more than three  
> children.  In
> other parts of the world it's rare to see a family with less than ten
> children.  As a nation becomes industrialized there is less need to  
> have
> so many children.  But providing them the lifestyle like that we have
> here uses much more energy and resources per person.
>
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are suffering from
> overpopulation and if we reduce it we will probably continue to  
> suffer.
> Sorry not a very cheerful concept. :'(
>
> Adam
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Actually, third-world countries are responsible for a lot of
>> environmental degradation and climate change when they become
>> overpopulated... through destruction of water resources, forests and
>> grazing land, etc.
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:32 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But the trade off is that you increase their carbon footprint.
>>>
>>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yep, yep and yep!
>>>> Educating women-- and the availability of electricity and
>>>> television-- are recognized as highly influential in reducing birth
>>>> rates in developing countries.
>>>> On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Holly T. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds
>>>>> schools in Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--
>>>>> is because, as he has learned from those who live in that region,
>>>>> if you educate a boy, you educate an individual. If you educate a
>>>>> girl, you educate an entire community because that girl will, in
>>>>> turn, teach her children and they, in turn, will teach others. One
>>>>> of the wonderful side effects of educating girls is that, the more
>>>>> education they have, the more likely they will be to voluntarily
>>>>> limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either of
>>>>> Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the  
>>>>> people
>>>>> of Central Asia.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth
>>>>> control. But, I am in favor of educating women the world over  
>>>>> about
>>>>> the importance of limiting births--both for their personal
>>>>> betterment and for the betterment of the entire planet. If people
>>>>> do not limit their births voluntarily, our planet will eventually
>>>>> become so over populated that forced birth control will, no doubt,
>>>>> become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of course,
>>>>> Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
>>>>> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in  
>>>>> wrong
>>>>> directions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Holly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>>
>>>>> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> need the schools.
>>>>>
>>>>> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.
>>>>> Just
>>>>> going from memory.]
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>>
>>>>> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>>>>>
>>>>> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The  
>>>>> courage to
>>>>> build
>>>>> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and
>>>>> artillery
>>>>> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Feb 23 12:26:54 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:26:54 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Climate Change (fka "Global Warming")
In-Reply-To: <4B842D89.8070900@jurislex.com>
References: <4B842D89.8070900@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <79DCC33E-564C-413D-8E52-25723C939C1A@teleport.com>

AAAGGGGGGHHH! Scientific American committed a glaring typo!
They spelled "descendants" as "decendents!"
Good grief, the "anti-climate-change" people are going to grab onto  
this as "more proof" of scientific incompetence!
Walt "Proofread, for Gawdsake" Wentz

On Feb 23, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Here's an article from a highly respected source - Scientific  
> American - regarding the furor over the purloined emails. Most  
> interesting and balanced, just like "science" should be, but  
> usually isn't since it is also an endeavor carried on by humans!!
>
> bob "just the facts, ma'am" browning
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> <moz-screenshot-2.png>
>
> The Green Grok -  February 22, 2010
> Screwups in Climate Science
>
>
>

From gdavis.fg at verizon.net  Tue Feb 23 14:20:30 2010
From: gdavis.fg at verizon.net (DANL GERRY DAVIS)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] FGHS Spring Musical...HELP needed
In-Reply-To: <4B842D89.8070900@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <926579.38366.qm@web84304.mail.re1.yahoo.com>




FGHS will be presenting the ever popular "Grease" as it's spring musical this year. It will open March 5th and run for 8 performances. Tickets are on sale at Joes' Ice Cream Shoppe and Collections in the Attic. $8 adults, $6 students and seniors. 
?
To involve the community, if you can?spy the?plastic vintage popcorn boxes that are hidden in five different FG businesses you? can enter your name in a drawing at Joe's Ice Cream Shoppe for dinner out and tickets to the musical.
?
A video montage is being put together and will be shown before each performance. The photos used in the montage will show FG during the "Grease" era. Photos are needed, especially of businesses and people and daily life?in FG during that time. A photo of the Car Vue drive-in or the Tip Top would be "PERFECT"!? Anything you can contribute would be greatly appreciated.
?
?Please send photos to fgplaypics at yahoo.com? ?
?
If you have no way to scan them, you can leave a message at the above e-mail.
?
Thanks for all the help and involvement to make this years spring musical a success!
?

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 14:39:02 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:39:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>
	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>
Message-ID: <951043.33082.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I believe my wording the other day indicated that no American politician in his right mind would talk about forced government birth control--not that I support anything of the kind. I went on to further say that no American politician would even talk about pushing hard enough to encourage folks to voluntarily limit the number of children they have. What I meant by that is that no American politician would push for a strong, effective campaign that pushes the importance and necessity of limiting our population. I believe it's just too touchy a topic, too many religious factors are involved, and Americans would feel that their rights were violated too much for that to happen. 

But, in order to achieve voluntary birth control in any society, whether American or not, you need education. Simple as that. Countries that have provided strong education promoting the benefits of birth control have fewer births. Simple as that. Countries that promote education for women also have fewer births. Simple as that. Providing secular schools in countries such as Afghanistan, as Greg Mortenson does, also decreases the number of young men who are pulled into religious madrasses that train them to become young Taliban terrorists. Simple as that.

Fewer people = fewer schools? Sure, Steven. But, we're a long, long way from a world with fewer people aren't we? Before that happens, we're going to need far better education for far more people.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 10:07:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
schools.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
Central Asia.

I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
directions.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
need the schools.

[sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
going from memory.]

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Feb 23 16:06:41 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:06:41 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Talk about Male Bovine Excrement
Message-ID: <4B846D91.4020708@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100223/fec3acf7/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: clip_image001.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 1332 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100223/fec3acf7/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: clip_image002.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 826 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100223/fec3acf7/attachment-0001.gif 

From gdavis.fg at verizon.net  Tue Feb 23 18:27:08 2010
From: gdavis.fg at verizon.net (DANL GERRY DAVIS)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:27:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] FGHS needs your help with spring musical
Message-ID: <496518.29275.qm@web84306.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

FGHS will be presenting the ever popular "Grease" as it's spring musical this year. It will open March 5th and run for 8 performances. Tickets are on sale at Joes' Ice Cream Shoppe and Collections in the Attic. $8 adults, $6 students and seniors. 
?
To involve the community, if you can?spy the?plastic vintage popcorn boxes that are hidden in five different FG businesses you? can enter your name in a drawing at Joe's Ice Cream Shoppe for dinner out and tickets to the musical.
?
A video montage is being put together and will be shown before each performance. The photos used in the montage will show FG during the "Grease" era. Photos are needed, especially of businesses and people and daily life?in FG during that time. A photo of the Car Vue drive-in or the Tip Top would be "PERFECT"!? Anything you can contribute would be greatly appreciated.
?
?Please send photos to fgplaypics at yahoo.com? ?
?
If you have no way to scan them, you can leave a message at the above e-mail.
?
Thanks for all the help and involvement to make this years spring musical a success!

From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Tue Feb 23 20:26:48 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Rosie Greeting For You
In-Reply-To: <29819-4B83C51D-667@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
References: <29819-4B83C51D-667@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <201002232026.49202.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

On Tuesday 23 February 2010 04:07:57 am Alan AKA Hoss wrote:
..
> by the bye ..Bud..
> after we talked ... it was another 2 hours before I saw the saw bones.
> I have decided not to have the shoulder replaced, and least not yet.
> There is a new procedure that is available now... I don't know the exact
> name of it, but it amounts to is ... some way, some how new cartilage is
> inserted in the rotary cuff. I still need to find out more about it, and
> will later today.

Sometimes it's best not to be first ... If you can wait, it's nice to let them 
get a little experience with the procedure ;-)

(And you should be out of digest mode now, right?)

----------------------------------------
Just happy to be here, but speaking 
only for myself!
Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss
----------------------------------------


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Feb 23 21:26:34 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:26:34 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Rosie Greeting For You
In-Reply-To: Meredith Bliss <mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>'s message of Tue, 23
	Feb 2010 20:26:48 -0800
Message-ID: <10238-4B84B88A-3589@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

thanks, and I did talk with my primary doctor and he said that the
procedure, even if it work well, I would not be a good candidate...



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 21:31:51 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:31:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <003701cab4b3$132359f0$396a0dd0$@net>
Message-ID: <2044816592.7172711266989511466.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Fewer future tax payers too. Dominos?
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:07:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
schools.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Holly T.
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
Central Asia.

I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
directions.

Holly




________________________________
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
need the schools.

[sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
going from memory.]

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.

The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  

BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
shelling in mind because that is the reality there.

David

On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Feb 23 23:11:12 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:11:12 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B84259D.1020200@gmail.com>
References: <1511025413.6004701266772814828.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<16B1FCFE-5E0B-40D1-B576-744C27955CEC@verizon.net>
	<4B8287F5.4060608@gmail.com>
	<1BF0375F-379B-4D34-9821-B250624BEB45@teleport.com>
	<4B82CA88.6060201@gmail.com>	<421204.90262.qm@web56104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<ef3e803b1002221354x579da7fcvf1b4197ec95cbe85@mail.gmail.com>
	<121655.87036.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<32380702-F9E8-4212-B889-D7E7041AD724@verizon.net>
	<000001cab4a1$68160b90$384222b0$@net>
	<52891.72559.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<6232F56E-13C6-49D6-B911-CD40D19377D6@teleport.com>
	<4B841F56.5000402@gmail.com>
	<AC762AF4-55E5-4ED2-AC09-866265F4182E@teleport.com>
	<4B84259D.1020200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0B8C5DB8-3F38-489B-BF0C-D03A16442CFF@verizon.net>

While trying to find information about family size world wide, I ran into a country that covers the spread of your example.

In 1979 the new conservative incoming government shut down the country's family planning program.  They wanted to build up the population to support a larger army.  Population growth was 3.4-4.4% per year.

By 1989 the economy, environment and employment became big problems and the same government reversed their family programs.

They supported government programs for family planning, TV, health clinics, contraception and male & female sterilization at public expense, education to increased female literacy from 25% to 70%, etc.

Population growth dropped to 1.2% per year.  Family size dropped from 6.6-7 children to 2-3 children between 1988 and 2006.

Total turn around in three decades.

The country? Iran.

Now you know, the rest of the story.

David

http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/books/pb/pbch10_ss2
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=19627
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-15195-Population-Trends-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Iran-is-more-progressive-than-you-thought

On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> That is very true, but as they become industrialized and their population shrinks, the amount of energy they use will increase.  In America it's rare to see a family that has more than three children.  In  other parts of the world it's rare to see a family with less than ten  children.  As a nation becomes industrialized there is less need to have so many children.  But providing them the lifestyle like that we have here uses much more energy and resources per person.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are suffering from overpopulation and if we reduce it we will probably continue to suffer.  
> Sorry not a very cheerful concept. :'(
> 
> Adam



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Feb 24 07:00:10 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:00:10 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A Rosie Good Day Greeting For You
Message-ID: <17815-4B854D0A-222@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/garmorn.html

Think this stuff will stop any time soon?
Can't get much done.  Just get one project started, and just as
quick,Garfield  opens the flood gates.

~A~:?(




From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Feb 24 12:15:17 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:15:17 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Bull Poop!
In-Reply-To: grovenet-request@rdrop.com's message of Wed, 24 Feb 2010
	12:00:07 -0800
Message-ID: <1474-4B8588D5-390@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hey Judge..
what is it that you have about the very thing that some attorneys do
very well, with the exception of the grovenet of course?

~A~:?(

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100224/04179522/attachment.html 

From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Feb 24 13:11:40 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:11:40 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
Message-ID: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100224/e6b0d943/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: clip_image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1450 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100224/e6b0d943/attachment.jpg 

From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 24 13:38:03 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:38:03 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>
References: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

This is an article blasting a newspaper. Agenda driven data. 
Just more of your end of the world revelations garbage. 
Can we fix the earth In seven years like revelations says or will this time of trouble you speak of last longer?
So we manage to Fix the weather. Will we have 1000 years of peace?

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:11:40 
To: Grovenet<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Feb 24 14:02:52 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:02:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>
	<762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4B85A20C.20706@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100224/0772af11/attachment.html 

From chuck at grovenet.net  Wed Feb 24 15:15:40 2010
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:15:40 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <4B85A20C.20706@jurislex.com>
References: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>	<762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4B85A20C.20706@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4B85B31C.9020309@grovenet.net>

"A late winter snow hurricane  may hit the northeastern United States on 
Thursday. The snow hurricane is expected to drop fifteen inches of snow 
in northern New Jersey and effect upstate New York and western New England.

While the country has dealt with some very unusual weather this winter, 
the term "snow hurricane" may be the most unheard of weather event"

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2734093/what_is_a_snow_hurricane_and_what_will.html?cat=2


From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Feb 24 21:39:42 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:39:42 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <4B85960C.1070804@jurislex.com>
	<762883206-1267047484-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761249050-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <0D5F6F9D-4CFB-4304-8C0F-EAA4BEFF4222@verizon.net>


On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Steve wrote:

> This is an article blasting a newspaper. Agenda driven data. 
> Just more of your end of the world revelations garbage. 
> Can we fix the earth In seven years like revelations says or will this time of trouble you speak of last longer?
> So we manage to Fix the weather. Will we have 1000 years of peace?

So, what is your agenda?

BTW,

There is a difference between opinion and data driven observations.

The terminal velocity of competitive bobsleds has been rising for the last 50 years.  That is measurable data, which drives the observation that "bobsled design has changed and the sleds are becoming faster".  This is not a natural variation in the force of gravity, it is the result of human action.

"Opinion" is trying to discern meaning in the words of Isaiah about the "Day of the Lord".

19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 
19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

[ Holy trio of Egypt, Israel and Assyria ]

23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. ...
23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. 
23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD:

[ Tyre as the holy harlot ]

27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Or about the "anointed one", the "messiah" .

44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd,... 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;


From obrzl at verizon.net  Wed Feb 24 22:44:08 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:44:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <0D5F6F9D-4CFB-4304-8C0F-EAA4BEFF4222@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <432630.30143.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Oh dear me, I don't think I'd want to be hearing an 'arlot singing!

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net> wrote:


From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
To: nospam03 at comcast.net, "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 5:39 AM



On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Steve wrote:

> This is an article blasting a newspaper. Agenda driven data. 
> Just more of your end of the world revelations garbage. 
> Can we fix the earth In seven years like revelations says or will this time of trouble you speak of last longer?
> So we manage to Fix the weather. Will we have 1000 years of peace?

So, what is your agenda?

BTW,

There is a difference between opinion and data driven observations.

The terminal velocity of competitive bobsleds has been rising for the last 50 years.? That is measurable data, which drives the observation that "bobsled design has changed and the sleds are becoming faster".? This is not a natural variation in the force of gravity, it is the result of human action.

"Opinion" is trying to discern meaning in the words of Isaiah about the "Day of the Lord".

19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 
19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

[ Holy trio of Egypt, Israel and Assyria ]

23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. ...
23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. 
23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD:

[ Tyre as the holy harlot ]

27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Or about the "anointed one", the "messiah" .

44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd,... 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Feb 24 23:53:03 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:53:03 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
In-Reply-To: <432630.30143.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <432630.30143.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E916681C-0D01-4E22-A4BE-079126566A3C@teleport.com>

Isaiah got hold of some funny mushrooms.

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:44 PM, mark oberzil wrote:

> Oh dear me, I don't think I'd want to be hearing an 'arlot singing!
>
> --- On Thu, 2/25/10, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Here's some more on Climate Change
> To: nospam03 at comcast.net, "Forest Grove local interests list"  
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 5:39 AM
>
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Steve wrote:
>
>> This is an article blasting a newspaper. Agenda driven data.
>> Just more of your end of the world revelations garbage.
>> Can we fix the earth In seven years like revelations says or will  
>> this time of trouble you speak of last longer?
>> So we manage to Fix the weather. Will we have 1000 years of peace?
>
> So, what is your agenda?
>
> BTW,
>
> There is a difference between opinion and data driven observations.
>
> The terminal velocity of competitive bobsleds has been rising for  
> the last 50 years.  That is measurable data, which drives the  
> observation that "bobsled design has changed and the sleds are  
> becoming faster".  This is not a natural variation in the force of  
> gravity, it is the result of human action.
>
> "Opinion" is trying to discern meaning in the words of Isaiah about  
> the "Day of the Lord".
>
> 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with  
> Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
> 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt  
> my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine  
> inheritance.
>
> [ Holy trio of Egypt, Israel and Assyria ]
>
> 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be  
> forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after  
> the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. ...
> 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years,  
> that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and  
> shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon  
> the face of the earth.
> 23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD:
>
> [ Tyre as the holy harlot ]
>
> 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword  
> shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that  
> crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
>
> Or about the "anointed one", the "messiah" .
>
> 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd,... 45:1 Thus saith  
> the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden,  
> to subdue nations before him;
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 25 11:46:54 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:46:54 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Message-ID: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
"No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
"over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."

---
That is what I see in the writing. 
------Original Message------
From: Adam Mayer
Sender: grovenet-bounces
To: Forest Grove local interests list
ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Sent: Feb 23, 2010 10:25 AM

Steven,

Holly was responding to a post I made where she said:

I agree with you about over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around. Of course no American politician in their right mind would ever suggest enforced birth control as a solution. No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families. I fear we'll have to get as overrun with people as China and India before that ever happens here. As a nation, we're still too tied into exploitive ideas that teach people that it's okay to "go forth and multiply" and that we have "dominion over the earth" to swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control.

I read this to mean that you can't force birth control since no 
politician would try to legislate it and only when we start reaching the 
level of China and India will there be any attempt to try and educate 
the public on reducing their families.  That's what I though Holly was 
saying, we'll have to address this later but no one wants to talk about 
it now, not that the government should force birth control upon us.

Adam

Steven wrote:
> Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
> use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
> that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
> But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
> schools.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
> Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
> learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
> educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
> community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
> turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
> girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
> voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
> of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
> Central Asia.
>
> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
> But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
> limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
> of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
> planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
> will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
> course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
> directions.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
> going from memory.]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>
> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  
>
> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 12:51:59 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:51:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20086.3801.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Not my meaning at all, Steve.

Right now, I believe there's little need for government enforced birth control in most areas of America. Most. There is such need in places like China where over-population has spiraled out of control. But, if Americans do not limit their families voluntarily, one day, we could eventually end up in the same place as China. If you just think about how quickly numbers tend to grow when exponents are involved, I think this likelihood really ought to seem obvious.

I do personally think we could use some educational campaigns that lean hard on people to limit the number of children they have. By "lean hard," I do not mean government enforcement. I mean letting people know, in no uncertain terms, the exponential problems humans will face in the future as our population explodes. Letting them know how access to resources will be affected. Let them know how economies will be affected. Let them know how lifestyles will be compromised. 

When I say "lean hard," I mean not being afraid to even talk about the subject of over-population as we seem to be afraid to do now. But education is not the same as government enforced birth control. Not at all. 

But, how could politicians push such education? Much of the religious right doesn't even want the concept of birth control taught in our schools, where unwanted pregnancies seem to start. America, in my opinion, is doing too little to get to the source of the problem out of fear of political backlash with the religious right. Telling people they ought to think about limiting their offspring is like telling them that they will have a fundamental right taken away from them. 

But, how will our other "rights" be compromised over time as our population places a bigger and bigger strain on resources? What about the "right" to clean air, clean water, enough energy to go around, jobs, food, etc.? How will those "rights" be affected as over population comes into play?

As I see things, you can either ignore the problem and then deal with it like China now has to, or you can have foresight and deal with the problem proactively before too many rights and privileges are removed by default.

Holly


________________________________
From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 11:46:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
"No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
"over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."

---
That is what I see in the writing. 
------Original Message------
From: Adam Mayer
Sender: grovenet-bounces
To: Forest Grove local interests list
ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Sent: Feb 23, 2010 10:25 AM

Steven,

Holly was responding to a post I made where she said:

I agree with you about over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around. Of course no American politician in their right mind would ever suggest enforced birth control as a solution. No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families. I fear we'll have to get as overrun with people as China and India before that ever happens here. As a nation, we're still too tied into exploitive ideas that teach people that it's okay to "go forth and multiply" and that we have "dominion over the earth" to swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control.

I read this to mean that you can't force birth control since no 
politician would try to legislate it and only when we start reaching the 
level of China and India will there be any attempt to try and educate 
the public on reducing their families.  That's what I though Holly was 
saying, we'll have to address this later but no one wants to talk about 
it now, not that the government should force birth control upon us.

Adam

Steven wrote:
> Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you wanting to
> use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all type things
> that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
> But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would need fewer
> schools.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Holly T.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds schools in
> Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because, as he has
> learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
> educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
> community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and they, in
> turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of educating
> girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they will be to
> voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to read either
> of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the people of
> Central Asia.
>
> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth control.
> But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the importance of
> limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the betterment
> of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births voluntarily, our
> planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth control
> will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world. Unless, of
> course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of people with
> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
> directions.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we wouldn't
> need the schools.
>
> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control. Just
> going from memory.]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>
> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage to build
> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.  
>
> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and artillery
> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>
> David
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM, 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From a_tom_51 at juno.com  Thu Feb 25 13:00:44 2010
From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:00:44 GMT
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Message-ID: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>

The current National Geographic has an article about the economic powerhouse of Shanghai. One thing mentioned is that they are encouraging people to have more children.
Tom Alexander

 
 
I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
"No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
"over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."

 

____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 13:23:51 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:23:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Interesting. Did they say why?

Does it have to do with the fact that there are fewer younger people to care for China's aging population as described here, or is it for other reasons?

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ChinasConcernOverPopulationAgingandHealth.aspx

Holly




________________________________
From: "a_tom_51 at juno.com" <a_tom_51 at juno.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 1:00:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The current National Geographic has an article about the economic powerhouse of Shanghai. One thing mentioned is that they are encouraging people to have more children.
Tom Alexander



I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
"No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
"over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."



____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Feb 25 13:55:44 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:55:44 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influences
	Mood and Well-Being
Message-ID: <4B86F1E0.9030708@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100225/bc7f2c38/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: t.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 43 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100225/bc7f2c38/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: logo.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 3861 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100225/bc7f2c38/attachment-0001.gif 

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Thu Feb 25 14:08:06 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:08:06 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain"
	InfluencesMood and Well-Being
References: <4B86F1E0.9030708@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <2920CA27876A4FDBAB49C09E62DEEDA9@gerianehzkfhvy>

Interesting stuff, Bob!

Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Browning 
To: Grovenet 
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:55 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain" InfluencesMood and Well-Being


I had absolutely no knowledge of this so-called "second brain". But, it sure does start to answer some questions about why we feel like we do, especially when we drink a really cold milkshake!!

It's articles like this that suggest that the next 25 years in medical research will lead to a greater amount of knowledge about the human body than in the past 150 years. But, only if enough of our students understand evolution and other physiobiological concepts as are needed to perform the research!!

bob "my gut tells me . . ." browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

 
 
Features -  February 12, 2010

Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influences Mood and Well-Being
The emerging and surprising view of how the enteric nervous system in our bellies goes far beyond just processing the food we eat
By Adam Hadhazy

As Olympians go for the gold in Vancouver, even the steeliest are likely to experience that familiar feeling of "butterflies" in the stomach. Underlying this sensation is an often-overlooked network of neurons lining our guts that is so extensive some scientists have nicknamed it our "second brain".

A deeper understanding of this mass of neural tissue, filled with important neurotransmitters, is revealing that it does much more than merely handle digestion or inflict the occasional nervous pang. The little brain in our innards, in connection with the big one in our skulls, partly determines our mental state and plays key roles in certain diseases throughout the body.

Although its influence is far-reaching, the second brain is not the seat of any conscious thoughts or decision-making.

"The second brain doesn't help with the great thought processes.religion, philosophy and poetry is left to the brain in the head," says Michael Gershon, chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology at New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Medical Center, an expert in the nascent field of neurogastroenterology and author of the 1998 book The Second Brain (HarperCollins).

Technically known as the enteric nervous system, the second brain consists of sheaths of neurons embedded in the walls of the long tube of our gut, or alimentary canal, which measures about nine meters end to end from the esophagus to the anus. The second brain contains some 100 million neurons, more than in either the spinal cord or the peripheral nervous system, Gershon says.

This multitude of neurons in the enteric nervous system enables us to "feel" the inner world of our gut and its contents. Much of this neural firepower comes to bear in the elaborate daily grind of digestion. Breaking down food, absorbing nutrients, and expelling of waste requires chemical processing, mechanical mixing and rhythmic muscle contractions that move everything on down the line.

Thus equipped with its own reflexes and senses, the second brain can control gut behavior independently of the brain, Gershon says. We likely evolved this intricate web of nerves to perform digestion and excretion "on site," rather than remotely from our brains through the middleman of the spinal cord. "The brain in the head doesn't need to get its hands dirty with the messy business of digestion, which is delegated to the brain in the gut," Gershon says. He and other researchers explain, however, that the second brain's complexity likely cannot be interpreted through this process alone.

"The system is way too complicated to have evolved only to make sure things move out of your colon," says Emeran Mayer, professor of physiology, psychiatry and biobehavioral sciences at the David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles (U.C.L.A.). For example, scientists were shocked to learn that about 90 percent of the fibers in the primary visceral nerve, the vagus, carry information from the gut to the brain and not the other way around. "Some of that info is decidedly unpleasant," Gershon says.

The second brain informs our state of mind in other more obscure ways, as well. "A big part of our emotions are probably influenced by the nerves in our gut," Mayer says. Butterflies in the stomach-signaling in the gut as part of our physiological stress response, Gershon says-is but one example. Although gastrointestinal (GI) turmoil can sour one's moods, everyday emotional well-being may rely on messages from the brain below to the brain above. For example, electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve-a useful treatment for depression-may mimic these signals, Gershon says.

Given the two brains' commonalities, other depression treatments that target the mind can unintentionally impact the gut. The enteric nervous system uses more than 30 neurotransmitters, just like the brain, and in fact 95 percent of the body's serotonin is found in the bowels. Because antidepressant medications called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) increase serotonin levels, it's little wonder that meds meant to cause chemical changes in the mind often provoke GI issues as a side effect. Irritable bowel syndrome-which afflicts more than two million Americans-also arises in part from too much serotonin in our entrails, and could perhaps be regarded as a "mental illness" of the second brain.

Scientists are learning that the serotonin made by the enteric nervous system might also play a role in more surprising diseases: In a new Nature Medicine study published online February 7, a drug that inhibited the release of serotonin from the gut counteracted the bone-deteriorating disease osteoporosis in postmenopausal rodents. (Scientific American is part of Nature Publishing Group.) "It was totally unexpected that the gut would regulate bone mass to the extent that one could use this regulation to cure-at least in rodents-osteoporosis," says Gerard Karsenty, lead author of the study and chair of the Department of Genetics and Development at Columbia University Medical Center.

Serotonin seeping from the second brain might even play some part in autism, the developmental disorder often first noticed in early childhood. Gershon has discovered that the same genes involved in synapse formation between neurons in the brain are involved in the alimentary synapse formation. "If these genes are affected in autism," he says, "it could explain why so many kids with autism have GI motor abnormalities" in addition to elevated levels of gut-produced serotonin in their blood.

Down the road, the blossoming field of neurogastroenterology will likely offer some new insight into the workings of the second brain-and its impact on the body and mind. "We have never systematically looked at [the enteric nervous system] in relating lesions in it to diseases like they have for the" central nervous system, Gershon says. One day, perhaps there will be well-known connections between diseases and lesions in the gut's nervous system as some in the brain and spinal cord today indicate multiple sclerosis.

Cutting-edge research is currently investigating how the second brain mediates the body's immune response; after all, at least 70 percent of our immune system is aimed at the gut to expel and kill foreign invaders.

U.C.L.A.'s Mayer is doing work on how the trillions of bacteria in the gut "communicate" with enteric nervous system cells (which they greatly outnumber). His work with the gut's nervous system has led him to think that in coming years psychiatry will need to expand to treat the second brain in addition to the one atop the shoulders.

So for those physically skilled and mentally strong enough to compete in the Olympic Games-as well as those watching at home-it may well behoove us all to pay more heed to our so-called "gut feelings" in the future.

Further Reading
  a.. Making Scents of Sounds: Noises May Alter How We Perceive Odors 
  b.. Energizing Energy: How the Stimulus Bill Has Ignited Innovation in the Renewables Sector--A Q&A 
  c.. Going for the Gaunt: How Low Can an Athlete's Body Fat Go? 
  d.. Are New Types of Reactors Needed for the U.S. Nuclear Renaissance? 
  a.. Numbers Wars: School Battles Heat Up Again in the Traditional versus Reform-Math Debate 
  b.. A Sensory Fix for Problems in School 
  c.. The Brain's Dark Energy 
  d.. Life from a Test Tube? The Real Promise of Synthetic Biology 
  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 43 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100225/fb98ef55/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 3861 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100225/fb98ef55/attachment-0001.gif 

From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Feb 25 14:13:02 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:13:02 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <20086.3801.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20086.3801.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <099A7300-70D8-4D28-B6AD-397DD3EEDCFB@teleport.com>

Well put, Holly--
And that, of course, would confront the problem only in our own nation.
WW
On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Not my meaning at all, Steve.
>
> Right now, I believe there's little need for government enforced  
> birth control in most areas of America. Most. There is such need in  
> places like China where over-population has spiraled out of  
> control. But, if Americans do not limit their families voluntarily,  
> one day, we could eventually end up in the same place as China. If  
> you just think about how quickly numbers tend to grow when  
> exponents are involved, I think this likelihood really ought to  
> seem obvious.
>
> I do personally think we could use some educational campaigns that  
> lean hard on people to limit the number of children they have. By  
> "lean hard," I do not mean government enforcement. I mean letting  
> people know, in no uncertain terms, the exponential problems humans  
> will face in the future as our population explodes. Letting them  
> know how access to resources will be affected. Let them know how  
> economies will be affected. Let them know how lifestyles will be  
> compromised.
>
> When I say "lean hard," I mean not being afraid to even talk about  
> the subject of over-population as we seem to be afraid to do now.  
> But education is not the same as government enforced birth control.  
> Not at all.
>
> But, how could politicians push such education? Much of the  
> religious right doesn't even want the concept of birth control  
> taught in our schools, where unwanted pregnancies seem to start.  
> America, in my opinion, is doing too little to get to the source of  
> the problem out of fear of political backlash with the religious  
> right. Telling people they ought to think about limiting their  
> offspring is like telling them that they will have a fundamental  
> right taken away from them.
>
> But, how will our other "rights" be compromised over time as our  
> population places a bigger and bigger strain on resources? What  
> about the "right" to clean air, clean water, enough energy to go  
> around, jobs, food, etc.? How will those "rights" be affected as  
> over population comes into play?
>
> As I see things, you can either ignore the problem and then deal  
> with it like China now has to, or you can have foresight and deal  
> with the problem proactively before too many rights and privileges  
> are removed by default.
>
> Holly
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 11:46:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced  
> birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in  
> the 1970s limit of two kids.
> "No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to  
> effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of  
> their families."
> This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken.  
> She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward  
> with this.
> If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth  
> control.
> "over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things  
> around." "As a nation, (we should)
> ... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."
>
> ---
> That is what I see in the writing.
> ------Original Message------
> From: Adam Mayer
> Sender: grovenet-bounces
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
> Sent: Feb 23, 2010 10:25 AM
>
> Steven,
>
> Holly was responding to a post I made where she said:
>
> I agree with you about over population being the biggest obstacle  
> to turning things around. Of course no American politician in their  
> right mind would ever suggest enforced birth control as a solution.  
> No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to  
> effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of  
> their families. I fear we'll have to get as overrun with people as  
> China and India before that ever happens here. As a nation, we're  
> still too tied into exploitive ideas that teach people that it's  
> okay to "go forth and multiply" and that we have "dominion over the  
> earth" to swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control.
>
> I read this to mean that you can't force birth control since no
> politician would try to legislate it and only when we start  
> reaching the
> level of China and India will there be any attempt to try and educate
> the public on reducing their families.  That's what I though Holly was
> saying, we'll have to address this later but no one wants to talk  
> about
> it now, not that the government should force birth control upon us.
>
> Adam
>
> Steven wrote:
>> Your wording the other day was a bit different. I remember you  
>> wanting to
>> use the force of government to encourage birth control. We all  
>> type things
>> that people misunderstand, boy do I know that.
>> But you would have to agree that with fewer children, we would  
>> need fewer
>> schools.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Holly T.
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:41 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Oh contrare, Steven. One of the reasons why Greg Mortenson builds  
>> schools in
>> Central Asia--particularly schools that educate girls--is because,  
>> as he has
>> learned from those who live in that region, if you educate a boy, you
>> educate an individual. If you educate a girl, you educate an entire
>> community because that girl will, in turn, teach her children and  
>> they, in
>> turn, will teach others. One of the wonderful side effects of  
>> educating
>> girls is that, the more education they have, the more likely they  
>> will be to
>> voluntarily limit their number of children. I encourage you to  
>> read either
>> of Greg's two books to learn more about his great work with the  
>> people of
>> Central Asia.
>>
>> I am not an advocate for "forcing" anyone to self-induced birth  
>> control.
>> But, I am in favor of educating women the world over about the  
>> importance of
>> limiting births--both for their personal betterment and for the  
>> betterment
>> of the entire planet. If people do not limit their births  
>> voluntarily, our
>> planet will eventually become so over populated that forced birth  
>> control
>> will, no doubt, become a reality in many parts of the world.  
>> Unless, of
>> course, Mother Nature steps in and wipes out huge numbers of  
>> people with
>> epidemics as she tends to do when the balance tips too far in wrong
>> directions.
>>
>> Holly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 8:01:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> If we forcefully encourage them to self induced birth control, we  
>> wouldn't
>> need the schools.
>>
>> [sorry if I didn't get Holly's exact wording on the birth control.  
>> Just
>> going from memory.]
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:42 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> What Holly writes, and Christiana's tag line are both linked.
>>
>> The complex and violent world of international oil.  The courage  
>> to build
>> secular schools for girls in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.
>>
>> BTW, the schools in Kashmir are designed with earth quakes and  
>> artillery
>> shelling in mind because that is the reality there.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 3:56 PM,
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Feb 25 14:16:03 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:16:03 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <90353C49-1851-4ADD-9FDF-525A0BE744F5@teleport.com>

Shanghai is not necessarily a good example. Although the economic and  
educational elite there might wish to enlarge their numbers so as to  
retain control over the economic system, foreign laborers and  
"others" are probably under no such government incentive.

On Feb 25, 2010, at 9:00 PM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote:

> The current National Geographic has an article about the economic  
> powerhouse of Shanghai. One thing mentioned is that they are  
> encouraging people to have more children.
> Tom Alexander
>
>
>
> I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced  
> birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in  
> the 1970s limit of two kids.
> "No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to  
> effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of  
> their families."
> This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken.  
> She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward  
> with this.
> If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth  
> control.
> "over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things  
> around." "As a nation, (we should)
> ... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
> http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From a_tom_51 at juno.com  Thu Feb 25 14:33:30 2010
From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:33:30 GMT
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
Message-ID: <20100225.143330.6051.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com>

They felt that they needed more younger people to replace aging workers. It wasn't the main point of the piece but it caught my eye.
 
Tom

  
 
Interesting. Did they say why?

Does it have to do with the fact that there are fewer younger people to care for China's aging population as described here, or is it for other reasons?

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ChinasConcernOverPopulationAgingandHealth.aspx

Holly




________________________________
From: "a_tom_51 at juno.com" <a_tom_51 at juno.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 1:00:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

The current National Geographic has an article about the economic powerhouse of Shanghai. One thing mentioned is that they are encouraging people to have more children.
Tom Alexander



I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
"No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
"over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."



____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



     
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210

From khourym at verizon.net  Thu Feb 25 14:48:56 2010
From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:48:56 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Free Concert
Message-ID: <D1084FB7-4022-4B3E-9504-8BE3B6115C79@verizon.net>

Portland Youth Philharmonic Concert

Mar 8, 2010, 7:30 PM
Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center
America's First Youth Orchestra Presents Free Concert Featuring Annual  
Concerto Competition Winner and Shostakovich Symphony No. 5



The Portland Youth Philharmonic, under the direction of Conductor and  
Music Director David Hattner, will present a free concert in the  
Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center at Pacific University in Forest  
Grove on Monday, March 8, 2010 at 7:30 p.m.

This concert will feature the winner of PYP's annual concerto  
competition, Natally Okhovat, performing Saint-Sa?ns Introduction and  
Rondo Capriccioso and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5. Also on the  
program is a work by PYP alumnus, Kenji Bunch, hailed by the New York  
Times as a composer to watch.

The event is free and open to the public. No tickets required. For  
more information, call 503-223-5939. It is a free preview of PYP's  
Winter Concert on March 13, 2010 at 7:30 p.m. in the Arlene Schnitzer  
Concert Hall.

Founded in 1924, PYP is America's first youth orchestra.  Musicians in  
the orchestra range in age from 12-23 and come from throughout NW  
Oregon and SW Washington. Auditions are held each year in June and  
August. Applications are available now. For more information,  
visit:portlandyouthphil.org.



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Feb 25 22:42:52 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:42:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>

We hear the same thing here.  "We cannot reduce our population, otherwise who will take care of our old people"

The Chinese problem was described as "4-2-1".  As in four grandparents, two parents for each one child.

They didn't add the "rest of the story".  

The life expectancy in China is less than 75 years.  If grandparents retire at 65 years old, then the average period for care for the grandparents is less than ten years.  During that time the parents and child are adults.  So, the ratio would be 4:3 not 6:1 for the families with living grandparents.

If the average age of a parent at the birth of their child was 20 years old, then the parents would retire when the grandparents reach 85, which would finally give the 4-2-1 situation.  But, that would only happen in those cases where the grandparents lived at least 10 years beyond life expectancy.  It may happen, but it is not the average condition.  In a large society, subject to statistical averages, there will be many children whose grandparents or parents do not reach more than a year or two beyond retirement age.

The graphic of the population pyramid was interesting, no one dies before 80+.  Which is a bit odd for the real world.  Especially as the environment in China can be pretty harsh on the human body, thanks to the pollution.

Or, it may expect that the medical situation in China is tremendously better than the medical situation in the U.S.

David

 



On Feb 25, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Interesting. Did they say why?
> 
> Does it have to do with the fact that there are fewer younger people to care for China's aging population as described here, or is it for other reasons?
> 
> http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ChinasConcernOverPopulationAgingandHealth.aspx
> 
> Holly



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Feb 25 22:47:22 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:47:22 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <945229923-1267127216-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1090878765-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <1F856D0F-32BE-438C-8016-3273FCB458E7@verizon.net>

I wondered about your agenda.

You are afraid that dealing with limits on energy, pollution and global warming would require people to take a responsible approach to procreation.

And you cannot imagine that people would do that in the absence of government action.

David

On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Steve wrote:

> I guess I read that this as holly would want government enforced birth control. Not just the Public relations type affair like in the 1970s limit of two kids.
> "No American politician would even promote educational campaigns to effectively lean hard on people to voluntarily limit the size of their families." 
> This is written to imply that it is a path that should be taken. She feels this is necessary, but politicians will not go forward with this. 
> If holly had her way, we would have government control over birth control. 
> "over population being the biggest obstacle to turning things around." "As a nation, (we should)
> ... swallow such a bitter pill as enforced birth control."



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 07:43:06 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:43:06 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net>

I have heard quite different. We have the baby boomers, but the projected
population will be in decline as we die off. Sure the boomers spawned an
echo boom as we had kids, but the trend is downward. Our only growing
population is immigrants. Without them our social security scheme will fall.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:43 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

We hear the same thing here.  "We cannot reduce our population, otherwise
who will take care of our old people"

The Chinese problem was described as "4-2-1".  As in four grandparents, two
parents for each one child.

They didn't add the "rest of the story".  

The life expectancy in China is less than 75 years.  If grandparents retire
at 65 years old, then the average period for care for the grandparents is
less than ten years.  During that time the parents and child are adults.
So, the ratio would be 4:3 not 6:1 for the families with living
grandparents.

If the average age of a parent at the birth of their child was 20 years old,
then the parents would retire when the grandparents reach 85, which would
finally give the 4-2-1 situation.  But, that would only happen in those
cases where the grandparents lived at least 10 years beyond life expectancy.
It may happen, but it is not the average condition.  In a large society,
subject to statistical averages, there will be many children whose
grandparents or parents do not reach more than a year or two beyond
retirement age.

The graphic of the population pyramid was interesting, no one dies before
80+.  Which is a bit odd for the real world.  Especially as the environment
in China can be pretty harsh on the human body, thanks to the pollution.

Or, it may expect that the medical situation in China is tremendously better
than the medical situation in the U.S.

David

 
ovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 08:50:04 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:50:04 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>
	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net>
Message-ID: <8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com>

Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to  
reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the Chinese!
  ;^)

On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:

> I have heard quite different. We have the baby boomers, but the  
> projected
> population will be in decline as we die off. Sure the boomers  
> spawned an
> echo boom as we had kids, but the trend is downward. Our only growing
> population is immigrants. Without them our social security scheme  
> will fall.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:43 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> We hear the same thing here.  "We cannot reduce our population,  
> otherwise
> who will take care of our old people"
>
> The Chinese problem was described as "4-2-1".  As in four  
> grandparents, two
> parents for each one child.
>
> They didn't add the "rest of the story".
>
> The life expectancy in China is less than 75 years.  If  
> grandparents retire
> at 65 years old, then the average period for care for the  
> grandparents is
> less than ten years.  During that time the parents and child are  
> adults.
> So, the ratio would be 4:3 not 6:1 for the families with living
> grandparents.
>
> If the average age of a parent at the birth of their child was 20  
> years old,
> then the parents would retire when the grandparents reach 85, which  
> would
> finally give the 4-2-1 situation.  But, that would only happen in  
> those
> cases where the grandparents lived at least 10 years beyond life  
> expectancy.
> It may happen, but it is not the average condition.  In a large  
> society,
> subject to statistical averages, there will be many children whose
> grandparents or parents do not reach more than a year or two beyond
> retirement age.
>
> The graphic of the population pyramid was interesting, no one dies  
> before
> 80+.  Which is a bit odd for the real world.  Especially as the  
> environment
> in China can be pretty harsh on the human body, thanks to the  
> pollution.
>
> Or, it may expect that the medical situation in China is  
> tremendously better
> than the medical situation in the U.S.
>
> David
>
>
> ovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 09:37:43 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:37:43 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net>
	<8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net>

I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time when health
costs rise, especially for Medicare.
The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific diagnosis and
treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the boomers.

Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we cut
costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in for
regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or cancer won't
be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to  
reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the Chinese!
  ;^)

On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 10:34:05 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net>
	<8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com>
	<002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net>
Message-ID: <FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>

Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics problem...
if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,  
and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre- 
existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or  
older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!  
And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.

On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:

> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time  
> when health
> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific diagnosis and
> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the  
> boomers.
>
> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we  
> cut
> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in  
> for
> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or  
> cancer won't
> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the  
> Chinese!
>   ;^)
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 10:49:37 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:49:37 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US Govt. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics problem...
if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,  
and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre- 
existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or  
older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!  
And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.

On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:

> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time  
> when health
> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific diagnosis and
> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the  
> boomers.
>
> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we  
> cut
> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in  
> for
> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or  
> cancer won't
> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the  
> Chinese!
>   ;^)
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 11:10:57 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:10:57 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>
	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>

Well, and just how secure is Medicare? The government giveth, and the  
government can taketh away.
A few years of intense lobbying, and eventually Senator Lardley J.  
Grafton (R, East Hell) can proudly proclaim, "Medicare, the dark  
Socialist conspiracy that has hung over working America for  
generations, has finally been eliminated... From now on, working  
Americans can proudly be in charge of their own health, without the  
interference of faceless government bureaucrats."
Which a few ungrateful cynics may translate as, "KMA, folks... if you  
get sick, die quick."

On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steve wrote:

> You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US  
> Govt.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics  
> problem...
> if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,
> and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre-
> existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or
> older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!
> And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time
>> when health
>> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
>> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific diagnosis and
>> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
>> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the
>> boomers.
>>
>> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we
>> cut
>> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
>> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in
>> for
>> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or
>> cancer won't
>> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
>> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the
>> Chinese!
>>   ;^)
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Feb 26 12:14:42 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:14:42 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Free Concert
In-Reply-To: <D1084FB7-4022-4B3E-9504-8BE3B6115C79@verizon.net>
References: <D1084FB7-4022-4B3E-9504-8BE3B6115C79@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <29E021C2-317E-48B2-A849-075A93D6B1DA@verizon.net>

Thanks Martha. I've definitely been looking for free activities lately.

If I may also add, on Mar 6th there will be
an Ungarden Art show from 11am-6pm with free admission at
McMinnamins.

All of the art is made from at least 75% reused/recycled materials.
The sponsors encourage carpooling if you come.

www.crackedpots.org

Katie
PS I am not affiliated with this in any way but heard about it  
through a friend of a friend.
Free admission and recycling sounds like a good combo to me.


On Feb 25, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Martha Khoury wrote:

> Portland Youth Philharmonic Concert
>
> Mar 8, 2010, 7:30 PM
> Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center
> America's First Youth Orchestra Presents Free Concert Featuring Annual
> Concerto Competition Winner and Shostakovich Symphony No. 5
>
>
>
> The Portland Youth Philharmonic, under the direction of Conductor and
> Music Director David Hattner, will present a free concert in the
> Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center at Pacific University in Forest
> Grove on Monday, March 8, 2010 at 7:30 p.m.
>
> This concert will feature the winner of PYP's annual concerto
> competition, Natally Okhovat, performing Saint-Sa?ns Introduction and
> Rondo Capriccioso and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5. Also on the
> program is a work by PYP alumnus, Kenji Bunch, hailed by the New York
> Times as a composer to watch.
>
> The event is free and open to the public. No tickets required. For
> more information, call 503-223-5939. It is a free preview of PYP's
> Winter Concert on March 13, 2010 at 7:30 p.m. in the Arlene Schnitzer
> Concert Hall.
>
> Founded in 1924, PYP is America's first youth orchestra.  Musicians in
> the orchestra range in age from 12-23 and come from throughout NW
> Oregon and SW Washington. Auditions are held each year in June and
> August. Applications are available now. For more information,
> visit:portlandyouthphil.org.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 14:13:42 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:13:42 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>

Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With 
competition there will always be some sort of coverage.

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Well, and just how secure is Medicare? The government giveth, and the  
> government can taketh away.
> A few years of intense lobbying, and eventually Senator Lardley J.  
> Grafton (R, East Hell) can proudly proclaim, "Medicare, the dark  
> Socialist conspiracy that has hung over working America for  
> generations, has finally been eliminated... From now on, working  
> Americans can proudly be in charge of their own health, without the  
> interference of faceless government bureaucrats."
> Which a few ungrateful cynics may translate as, "KMA, folks... if you  
> get sick, die quick."
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>   
>> You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US  
>> Govt.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>
>> Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics  
>> problem...
>> if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,
>> and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre-
>> existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or
>> older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!
>> And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time
>>> when health
>>> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
>>> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific diagnosis and
>>> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
>>> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the
>>> boomers.
>>>
>>> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we
>>> cut
>>> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
>>> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in
>>> for
>>> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or
>>> cancer won't
>>> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
>>> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the
>>> Chinese!
>>>   ;^)
>>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Feb 26 14:20:35 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:20:35 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>

Adam,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Um, maybe you didn't know this, but there already *is* competition for
Medicare.  It's called private insurance.  No one is obligated to use
Medicare.  Medicare just makes it so you're not obligated to use private
insurance if you choose not to.

Jeff



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 14:29:31 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:29:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
Message-ID: <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>

I do know it.  I also know that when government is in the mix, 
competition slowly goes out the window and all you are stuck with is the 
government.

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Adam,
>
>   
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> From: Adam Mayer
>>
>> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
>> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>     
>
> Um, maybe you didn't know this, but there already *is* competition for
> Medicare.  It's called private insurance.  No one is obligated to use
> Medicare.  Medicare just makes it so you're not obligated to use private
> insurance if you choose not to.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 14:31:34 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:31:34 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
Message-ID: <005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>

Did you know that private insurance takes a monthly chunk (several hundred
dollars) on your behalf from Medicare?

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jeff Howden
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 2:21 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Adam,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Um, maybe you didn't know this, but there already *is* competition for
Medicare.  It's called private insurance.  No one is obligated to use
Medicare.  Medicare just makes it so you're not obligated to use private
insurance if you choose not to.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Feb 26 14:56:15 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:56:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com> <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <039801cab736$e6e8e4a0$b4baade0$@com>

Adam,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Adam Mayer [mailto:adamsmayer at gmail.com]
> 
> I do know it.  I also know that when government is in the mix,
> competition slowly goes out the window and all you are stuck with
> is the government.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Medicare has been around since 1965.  Just how slowly are you anticipating
this competition to slowly go out the window?

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Feb 26 15:01:25 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:01:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
	<005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>
Message-ID: <03a101cab737$9fbc9120$df35b360$@com>

Steven,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> 
> Did you know that private insurance takes a monthly chunk (several
> hundred dollars) on your behalf from Medicare?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Are you talking about Medicare or Medicare Advantage (which is managed by
private insurance companies)?

Cite your source too, please.

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Fri Feb 26 15:01:31 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:01:31 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <039801cab736$e6e8e4a0$b4baade0$@com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
	<4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com> <039801cab736$e6e8e4a0$b4baade0$@com>
Message-ID: <4B8852CB.6040309@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100226/1e6c2bb9/attachment.html 

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 15:09:14 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:09:14 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <03a101cab737$9fbc9120$df35b360$@com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>	<005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>
	<03a101cab737$9fbc9120$df35b360$@com>
Message-ID: <007901cab738$b7202830$25607890$@net>

Medicare. Every insurance gets it. I learned it from dealing with Medicare
paperwork.
When you sign with Blue cross for example, one sheet of paper allows for
them to take the money in your behalf.

It covers some or all of your premiums. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jeff Howden
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 3:01 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!

Steven,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> 
> Did you know that private insurance takes a monthly chunk (several
> hundred dollars) on your behalf from Medicare?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Are you talking about Medicare or Medicare Advantage (which is managed by
private insurance companies)?

Cite your source too, please.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 17:07:08 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:07:08 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com> <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33E8920D-7FA0-440F-AB02-09443D78D03A@teleport.com>

That all depends on whether government can out-compete private  
companies. Yet government is supposed to be cumbersome and  
inefficient and full of overpaid bureaucrats, right? So howcum  
government's administrative costs for Medicare are so much lower than  
the administrative costs for private insurance companies?
On Feb 26, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I do know it.  I also know that when government is in the mix,
> competition slowly goes out the window and all you are stuck with  
> is the
> government.
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Adam,
>>
>>
>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
>>> <
>>> From: Adam Mayer
>>>
>>> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
>>> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
>>> <
>>>
>>
>> Um, maybe you didn't know this, but there already *is* competition  
>> for
>> Medicare.  It's called private insurance.  No one is obligated to use
>> Medicare.  Medicare just makes it so you're not obligated to use  
>> private
>> insurance if you choose not to.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 17:08:07 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:08:07 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
	<005601cab733$744403b0$5ccc0b10$@net>
Message-ID: <03473842-1750-49E0-B589-82E91CB5C05A@teleport.com>

Then I must assume they are all in favor of Medicare...

> Did you know that private insurance takes a monthly chunk (several  
> hundred
> dollars) on your behalf from Medicare?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Howden
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 2:21 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>
> Adam,
>
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> From: Adam Mayer
>>
>> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
>> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
> Um, maybe you didn't know this, but there already *is* competition for
> Medicare.  It's called private insurance.  No one is obligated to use
> Medicare.  Medicare just makes it so you're not obligated to use  
> private
> insurance if you choose not to.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Feb 26 18:35:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:35:16 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>
	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>
	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>	<038901cab731$ebc1d630$c3458290$@com>
	<4B884B4B.8000209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F84AC79-5A32-448A-A375-5E93393CC330@verizon.net>

The only situations where competition is likely to remain, are those situations where there are large numbers of buyers and large numbers of sellers. 

The free market may benefit from competition, but producers do not want competition.  So, companies will lobby government to limit their competition.   Government reduces competition by allowing monopolies, cartels, trade organizations, patents, and copy writes.   

Companies also will "buy out" or merge with their competitors to reduce competition.  

There is also the situation where the government limits the ability of people to file legal action agains companies.  Or the government allows companies a special legal status as they compete with natural humans for customers.  Or the government allows importers advantages over domestic producers.

Government may be part of the problem.  That doesn't mean that our social fabric will benefit from a total absence of government.  Just that we may benefit from having government less beholding to the rich and powerful.

Yes unions are also a means of reducing competition.    In those situations where there are many employers competing for workers, unions are unnecessary.  In those situations where companies control the job market, there is no competition for workers, so the workers do not see the benefits of a free market.  In those situations where unions control the job market, there is no competition for jobs, so the employers do not see the benefits of a free market.  The best situation is where there is competition for jobs and competition for workers.

In the health care field, we cannot claim the benefits of a free market if we do not have a free market.  If 80% of the market is controlled by a score of companies then there is no competition.  So, we shouldn't call it a "free market". 

David

On Feb 26, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I do know it.  I also know that when government is in the mix,  competition slowly goes out the window and all you are stuck with is the government.



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 21:05:49 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:05:49 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <656AF625-2E5B-4455-83C1-987AA1D3069E@teleport.com>

Proof, also, that government should always furnish competition with  
commercial insurance companies-- which otherwise will inevitably tend  
toward monopoly and merciless price gouging.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Well, and just how secure is Medicare? The government giveth, and the
>> government can taketh away.
>> A few years of intense lobbying, and eventually Senator Lardley J.
>> Grafton (R, East Hell) can proudly proclaim, "Medicare, the dark
>> Socialist conspiracy that has hung over working America for
>> generations, has finally been eliminated... From now on, working
>> Americans can proudly be in charge of their own health, without the
>> interference of faceless government bureaucrats."
>> Which a few ungrateful cynics may translate as, "KMA, folks... if you
>> get sick, die quick."
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steve wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US
>>> Govt.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>
>>> Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics
>>> problem...
>>> if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,
>>> and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre-
>>> existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or
>>> older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!
>>> And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.
>>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time
>>>> when health
>>>> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
>>>> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific  
>>>> diagnosis and
>>>> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
>>>> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the
>>>> boomers.
>>>>
>>>> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we
>>>> cut
>>>> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
>>>> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in
>>>> for
>>>> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or
>>>> cancer won't
>>>> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
>>>> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the
>>>> Chinese!
>>>>   ;^)
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 26 21:14:34 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:14:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
Message-ID: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . . 

If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then want to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy should've already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from the process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out wonderful sourdough bread every day.

But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as "pure" as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?

Thanks in advance,

 
Allen Warren



      

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 21:23:52 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:23:52 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <656AF625-2E5B-4455-83C1-987AA1D3069E@teleport.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<656AF625-2E5B-4455-83C1-987AA1D3069E@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4B88AC68.7020104@gmail.com>

A monopoly can only survive when it has government protection.  
Eventually someone will make it cheaper, faster, better, etc. and the 
monopoly will disappear.

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Proof, also, that government should always furnish competition with  
> commercial insurance companies-- which otherwise will inevitably tend  
> toward monopoly and merciless price gouging.
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
>> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>>
>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>     
>>> Well, and just how secure is Medicare? The government giveth, and the
>>> government can taketh away.
>>> A few years of intense lobbying, and eventually Senator Lardley J.
>>> Grafton (R, East Hell) can proudly proclaim, "Medicare, the dark
>>> Socialist conspiracy that has hung over working America for
>>> generations, has finally been eliminated... From now on, working
>>> Americans can proudly be in charge of their own health, without the
>>> interference of faceless government bureaucrats."
>>> Which a few ungrateful cynics may translate as, "KMA, folks... if you
>>> get sick, die quick."
>>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steve wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US
>>>> Govt.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>
>>>> Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics
>>>> problem...
>>>> if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates indefinitely,
>>>> and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as "pre-
>>>> existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than 25 or
>>>> older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics boom!
>>>> And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time
>>>>> when health
>>>>> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
>>>>> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific  
>>>>> diagnosis and
>>>>> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
>>>>> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the
>>>>> boomers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015. Can we
>>>>> cut
>>>>> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
>>>>> Should the government encourage people to not take their seniors in
>>>>> for
>>>>> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or
>>>>> cancer won't
>>>>> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger generation.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn resistance to
>>>>> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the
>>>>> Chinese!
>>>>>   ;^)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Feb 26 22:05:00 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:05:00 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B88AC68.7020104@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<656AF625-2E5B-4455-83C1-987AA1D3069E@teleport.com>
	<4B88AC68.7020104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BD336ACD-2222-47F9-9816-711D51531683@teleport.com>



> A monopoly can only survive when it has government protection.

Right! As when the government fails to enforce anti-trust laws.

> Eventually someone will make it cheaper, faster, better, etc. and the
> monopoly will disappear.

Is that why the Tucker automobile is all over the roads these days?  ;^)
The business of monopolies is to hold prices up, and to demolish any  
competitor who tries to do it cheaper and better.

>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Proof, also, that government should always furnish competition with
>> commercial insurance companies-- which otherwise will inevitably tend
>> toward monopoly and merciless price gouging.
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Thank you, proof why government should not run health care.  With
>>> competition there will always be some sort of coverage.
>>>
>>> Walt Wentz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, and just how secure is Medicare? The government giveth,  
>>>> and the
>>>> government can taketh away.
>>>> A few years of intense lobbying, and eventually Senator Lardley J.
>>>> Grafton (R, East Hell) can proudly proclaim, "Medicare, the dark
>>>> Socialist conspiracy that has hung over working America for
>>>> generations, has finally been eliminated... From now on, working
>>>> Americans can proudly be in charge of their own health, without the
>>>> interference of faceless government bureaucrats."
>>>> Which a few ungrateful cynics may translate as, "KMA, folks...  
>>>> if you
>>>> get sick, die quick."
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steve wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You forget. The biggest insurer of the elderly is Medicare. The US
>>>>> Govt.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:34:05
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, yeah, that will certainly help our looming demographics
>>>>> problem...
>>>>> if we allow insurance companies to jack up their rates  
>>>>> indefinitely,
>>>>> and to declare appendicitis, heart attacks and lung cancer as  
>>>>> "pre-
>>>>> existing conditions," and deny coverage to anyone younger than  
>>>>> 25 or
>>>>> older than 50, yep, we sure can solve that pesky demographics  
>>>>> boom!
>>>>> And just think of the added income for the funeral industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I see it differently. We have the boomers now entering the time
>>>>>> when health
>>>>>> costs rise, especially for Medicare.
>>>>>> The government bill will limit all doctor's to specific
>>>>>> diagnosis and
>>>>>> treatments. They will also be cutting costs.
>>>>>> This bill comes just in time to limit the medical benefits to the
>>>>>> boomers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alzheimer's is projected to cost about $189 billion by 2015.  
>>>>>> Can we
>>>>>> cut
>>>>>> costs by not having as many boomers get to that point?
>>>>>> Should the government encourage people to not take their  
>>>>>> seniors in
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> regular health issues? A senior that dies of a heart issue or
>>>>>> cancer won't
>>>>>> be an Alzheimer burden. This could benefit the younger  
>>>>>> generation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:50 AM
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Considering our rising medical costs and the stubborn  
>>>>>> resistance to
>>>>>> reforming health care, we may have less to worry about than the
>>>>>> Chinese!
>>>>>>   ;^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Steven wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Feb 26 22:16:39 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:16:39 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Totally amazing!
In-Reply-To: <4B88AC68.7020104@gmail.com>
References: <20100225.130044.16936.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
	<702123.22869.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<BAC30CAB-2168-4CB0-931B-D26534A24681@verizon.net>
	<001801cab6fa$648b9930$2da2cb90$@net><8BCBE747-54FE-4BA3-948B-D31D74717CEA@teleport.com><002401cab70a$66f13440$34d39cc0$@net><FD08B98F-D384-4C72-867B-202694A2BD5C@teleport.com>
	<42143051-1267210179-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-921296621-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4E4050BA-1487-4D08-AE25-F16F04973615@teleport.com>
	<4B884796.2050401@gmail.com>
	<656AF625-2E5B-4455-83C1-987AA1D3069E@teleport.com>
	<4B88AC68.7020104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DC50B44-B84C-45CE-81E2-E8C592843A4E@verizon.net>

In general monopolies fail if someone can produce alternate products that are interchangeable or substitutable in the original use, or they provide something that eliminates the use.   AND provided that potential competitors can pay the cost of entering the market ( facilities, advertising, shelf space, venture capital, etc. ). 

So long as a company has the ability to purchase government favors or buy out the competition, it can obtain and maintain a monopoly.  A cartel of companies may wield even more power over government favors, because there are fewer competitors on the "outside" who will fight them.  Pharmaceuticals and oil companies would be examples of this.

An example of government protection is when the government allows that computer operating systems are protected by copyright law instead of patents.

Or when a political decision is made that some company is "too big to fail", while allowing smaller competitors to fail.

Would we be better if all of our business was face to face and local?  Would we be better with no big government?  Would we be better if our political organizations didn't exert control beyond their immediate areas?

Maybe.  Ask the people who had that sort of local control and small political structures here in Oregon in the 1790's.
Maybe.  Ask the people who lived under Segregation in the American South.  
Maybe.  Ask the people who are objecting to the Natural Gas pipeline.

I expect that we need a mix of organizations with a mix of sizes.  And that we do need them.

David

On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> A monopoly can only survive when it has government protection.  
> Eventually someone will make it cheaper, faster, better, etc. and the monopoly will disappear.



From jim at benchmarkinspections.com  Fri Feb 26 23:36:44 2010
From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:36:44 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4954A9BD7B5044D897A961ED37216A02@JimDell>

Hi Allen,

My dad made a new pot of yogurt every week from a few tablespoons of the
previous week's batch. He used a starter that he got from his brother before
I was born and that he continued to use for about 40 years. It never became
"diluted" but the flavor would alter slightly from week to week depending on
exactly how warm the milk was when he added the starter and how long it
fermented. Sometimes it came out sort of sweet (yuck) but mostly was very
tart (mmmm). I made it myself for many years until I moved out here &
discovered Nancy's yogurt. Damn! No reason for me to make it because Nancy's
is just about perfect. 

Scald your milk without burning it (get it to at least 180 degrees) then let
it cool. It's very important to add the starter when the milk is at the
right temperature. For my family, this means that you can hold your
(immaculately clean) little finger in the milk for exactly 10 seconds. No
more and no less. When the milk has reached that temperature, stir in two or
three tablespoons of last week's yogurt. Cover the pot or bowl tightly,
place it somewhere where it will stay warm and won't be touched or disturbed
for 6-8 hours, and wrap it in towels. At the end of that time, it should
have gelled and you can refrigerate it. 

If you scoop out a small well in the surface of the yogurt and cover it with
a paper towel, whey will accumulate in the well. Spoon out the whey each day
and the yogurt will become thicker throughout the week. It starts out loose
and, by the end of the week, it's almost like cream cheese. 

Let me know how it works. If you have any questions, just ask. 

- Jim Katen

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Allen Warren
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:15 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . . 

If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then want
to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy should've
already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from the
process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out wonderful
sourdough bread every day.

But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as "pure"
as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?

Thanks in advance,

 
Allen Warren



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Fri Feb 26 23:55:38 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:55:38 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201002262355.38741.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

Well, yes, but ... if your starter is a pure strain of beasties, that would 
probably work, but I think most yogurts are the product of more than one 
strain or specie of bacteria, and the balance is probably what makes the 
particular characteristics of that yogurt. Commercial yogurt outfits can 
maintain multiple strains of bacteria to add at just the right time in just 
the right proportion. 

Bread is a little different in that the main factor is yeast, not bacteria.

So your second batch might not be identical to the first. On the other hand, 
I've always been partial to Nancy's, and often used it as a starter for my 
own, but I've also noticed that each batch from the store is likely to be 
just slightly different from the previous. But its always good. Just depends 
on how fussy you are. Go for it, and viva la difference!

On Friday 26 February 2010 09:14:34 pm Allen Warren wrote:
> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>
> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then want
> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy should've
> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from the
> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out wonderful
> sourdough bread every day.
>
> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as "pure"
> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Allen Warren

-- 
----------------------------------------
Just happy to be here, but speaking 
only for myself!
Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss
----------------------------------------


From phoenixacup at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 10:08:23 2010
From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:08:23 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>

Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.

Jane B-P


On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>
> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then want
> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy should've
> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from the
> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out wonderful
> sourdough bread every day.
>
> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as "pure"
> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>



-- 
Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
www.phoenix-acupuncture.net

From edavie at verizon.net  Sat Feb 27 11:09:12 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:09:12 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>

so, where does one buy Nancys?
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:08 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

> Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
> batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
> less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
> culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
> about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
> at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren 
> <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>>
>> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then 
>> want
>> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
>> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
>> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
>> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy 
>> should've
>> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
>> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
>> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from 
>> the
>> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
>> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
>> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out 
>> wonderful
>> sourdough bread every day.
>>
>> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as 
>> "pure"
>> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 27 11:13:50 2010
From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:13:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <588981.11157.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Both Safeway & Fred Meyer carry Nancy's Yogurt.

 
Allen Warren




________________________________
From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:09:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

so, where does one buy Nancys?
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:08 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

> Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
> batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
> less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
> culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
> about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
> at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren 
> <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>>
>> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then 
>> want
>> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
>> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
>> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
>> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy 
>> should've
>> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
>> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
>> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from 
>> the
>> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
>> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
>> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out 
>> wonderful
>> sourdough bread every day.
>>
>> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as 
>> "pure"
>> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From jim at benchmarkinspections.com  Sat Feb 27 11:39:10 2010
From: jim at benchmarkinspections.com (Jim Katen)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:39:10 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <FFCBDD476FE54E71B24656CFE13582F3@JimDell>

I get it at FM. For some reason, they stock it in the Health food aisle, not
with the other yogurts. 

Fun fact to know & tell: The Springfield Creamery, which makes Nancy's
Yogurt, is run by Chuck Kesey, brother of Ken Kesey. Their quality control
consists of him tasting every batch of yogurt that they make. 

- Jim Katen


-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Ed Davie
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:09 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

so, where does one buy Nancys?
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:08 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

> Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
> batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
> less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
> culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
> about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
> at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren 
> <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>>
>> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then 
>> want
>> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
>> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
>> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
>> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy 
>> should've
>> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
>> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
>> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from 
>> the
>> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
>> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
>> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out 
>> wonderful
>> sourdough bread every day.
>>
>> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as 
>> "pure"
>> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 27 11:42:08 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
In-Reply-To: <588981.11157.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <492866.53324.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<d6eeab3d1002271008k2ccdca03sc18f1bc35e6e5ef7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A7D19BD4E1E41539E91586BD7815387@EdDaviePC>
	<588981.11157.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <71947.3211.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

As does Winco.

Holly




________________________________
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:13:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

Both Safeway & Fred Meyer carry Nancy's Yogurt.


Allen Warren




________________________________
From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:09:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

so, where does one buy Nancys?
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:08 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

> Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
> batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
> less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
> culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
> about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
> at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren 
> <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>>
>> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then 
>> want
>> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
>> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
>> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
>> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy 
>> should've
>> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
>> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
>> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from 
>> the
>> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
>> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
>> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out 
>> wonderful
>> sourdough bread every day.
>>
>> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as 
>> "pure"
>> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 27 11:45:53 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:45:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please
Message-ID: <408313.25870.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Also, I vastly prefer Nancy's Honey Yogurt. It's not sweet. Just a touch of honey to off set the sour a bit. It's got Acidophilus and a bunch of other ingredients in it to supposedly make it extremely healthy.

See info at http://www.nancysyogurt.com/nancys_products/honey_yogurt.php

I love to use it to make smoothies blended with bananas and berries every morning.

Holly




________________________________
From: Holly T. <feralcattamer at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:42:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please


As does Winco.

Holly




________________________________
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:13:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

Both Safeway & Fred Meyer carry Nancy's Yogurt.


Allen Warren




________________________________
From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 11:09:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

so, where does one buy Nancys?
Ed

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jane Burch-Pesses" <phoenixacup at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:08 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Biochemistry assistance, please

> Well, growth depends on food, time, and temperature.  The only way the 2nd
> batch would be "diluted" compared to the first batch would be if there was
> less food (in this case probably lactose) in the medium or if you gave the
> culture (in this case probably Lactobacillus acidopholus, although any of
> about 20 others are possible) less time to grow or if you grew the culture
> at a lower temperature for the same time as the previous culture.
>
> Jane B-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Allen Warren 
> <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Need the assistance, please, of anyone knowledgeable about Biochem . . .
>>
>> If I make yogurt using a special strain of culture starter, and I then 
>> want
>> to make a second batch using a few tbsp of the first batch as starter for
>> the second batch, and I heat the organic ultra-pasteurized milk a little
>> just to make sure I kill off any possible "bad" bacteria that might be in
>> the milk (the ultra-pasteurization process in itself at the dairy 
>> should've
>> already done this anyway), the second batch of yogurt should mirror the
>> first, yes?  Whatever strain I used to create the first batch should have
>> the same potency and not be diluted, correct?  I took my reasoning from 
>> the
>> process of creating loaf after loaf of sourdough bread from a cultivated
>> sourdough starter.  As an example, New Seasons has a sourdough starter
>> that's supposedly over 100 years old.  And they keep churning out 
>> wonderful
>> sourdough bread every day.
>>
>> But back to the yogurt question . . . would the 2nd batch be just as 
>> "pure"
>> as the 1st batch?  Or would batch #2 be diluted?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Allen Warren
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity)
> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


      

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Feb 28 12:49:13 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:49:13 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
Message-ID: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

And time to get out your feeders and clean them up.  I have four each a
different type and I keep them under the canopy.  
And after 15 years of watching the comings and goings of my hummers me
thinks I can make a farley educated their time of arrival , give or take
a few days.
March 15 th  give or take.  It will be interesting if the same two males
show up first, granted if they are still alive, or not.  However, I
shall just wait and see. 
One annas & One costas.. they come right up to the sliding glass door
leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their
own  images.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100228/d7cb1097/attachment.html 

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Feb 28 13:58:09 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:58:09 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A dose of Hosstyle Sunday Humor
Message-ID: <1473-4B8AE6F1-4455@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Garfield Being A Friend...
http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm

-------------- next part --------------
http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm

From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Sun Feb 28 14:01:13 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:01:13 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
In-Reply-To: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <201002281401.13636.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

On Sunday 28 February 2010 12:49:13 pm Alan AKA Hoss wrote:
> .. they come right up to the sliding glass door
> leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their
> own  images.

Heck, no, they're checking to make sure you're on duty!

-- 
----------------------------------------
Just happy to be here, but speaking 
only for myself!
Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss
----------------------------------------


From feralcattamer at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 28 18:03:36 2010
From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:03:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
In-Reply-To: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <927559.595.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Last week, I already spied a hummingbird working the flowering cherry trees in my front yard. Don't know what variety it was, but it was definitely a hummingbird. Seemed pretty early. Although, everything in my garden seems to be about a month early this years.

Holly




________________________________
From: Alan AKA Hoss <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:49:13 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon

And time to get out your feeders and clean them up.  I have four each a
different type and I keep them under the canopy.  
And after 15 years of watching the comings and goings of my hummers me
thinks I can make a farley educated their time of arrival , give or take
a few days.
March 15 th  give or take.  It will be interesting if the same two males
show up first, granted if they are still alive, or not.  However, I
shall just wait and see. 
One annas & One costas.. they come right up to the sliding glass door
leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their
own  images.


      

From k.wilke at mac.com  Sun Feb 28 18:09:49 2010
From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:09:49 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
In-Reply-To: <927559.595.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
	<927559.595.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1971A4E3-3F38-4C75-8EDC-D7547BF083B8@mac.com>

We've had a resident Hummer or two or three all winter.  I sure enjoy  
seeing them

Kurt

On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:03 PM, Holly T. wrote:

> Last week, I already spied a hummingbird working the flowering  
> cherry trees in my front yard. Don't know what variety it was, but  
> it was definitely a hummingbird. Seemed pretty early. Although,  
> everything in my garden seems to be about a month early this years.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alan AKA Hoss <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:49:13 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
>
> And time to get out your feeders and clean them up.  I have four  
> each a
> different type and I keep them under the canopy.
> And after 15 years of watching the comings and goings of my hummers me
> thinks I can make a farley educated their time of arrival , give or  
> take
> a few days.
> March 15 th  give or take.  It will be interesting if the same two  
> males
> show up first, granted if they are still alive, or not.  However, I
> shall just wait and see.
> One annas & One costas.. they come right up to the sliding glass door
> leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their
> own  images.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Feb 28 19:09:11 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:09:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
References: <1471-4B8AD6C9-6734@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <5AB41AB32A34406BA71D15DDF20D0E1A@gerianehzkfhvy>

We're at different elevations, so mine have been coming by to feed all winter, Hoss.

Last few weeks it's been non-Oregonian ones migrating, too.  There is still one exotic-looking one I haven't identified yet (stayed for over a week) -- Looked a little bit like a Costa's, but not completely.


Geri


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alan AKA Hoss 
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:49 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon


And time to get out your feeders and clean them up.  I have four each a
different type and I keep them under the canopy.  
And after 15 years of watching the comings and goings of my hummers me
thinks I can make a farley educated their time of arrival , give or take
a few days.
March 15 th  give or take.  It will be interesting if the same two males
show up first, granted if they are still alive, or not.  However, I
shall just wait and see. 
One annas & One costas.. they come right up to the sliding glass door
leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their
own  images.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hummingbird Sanctuary
     




        
     

 
      <



        









--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      GroveNet mailing list
      GroveNet at rdrop.com
      http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
     

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Feb 28 19:55:15 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:55:15 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon
In-Reply-To: "Holly T." <feralcattamer@yahoo.com>'s message of Sun,
	28 Feb 2010 18:03:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1469-4B8B3AA3-9940@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Holly...
if you think you saw a hummer, it might be an Annas, for they most only
go towards the coast, and are mostly considered a local bird.  And are
usually the first to arrive...

 there is a pix of an annas in this clip

http://www.boskydellnatives.com/hummingbirds.html  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100228/7f1a01c1/attachment.html 

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Feb 28 20:08:25 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:08:25 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A dose of Hosstyle Sunday Humor
In-Reply-To: <1473-4B8AE6F1-4455@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <1473-4B8AE6F1-4455@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <7818B648-8DF3-40B8-AAC0-927862F6EB9B@verizon.net>

Thanks

On Feb 28, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote:

> Garfield Being A Friend...
> http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm
> 
> http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Feb 28 20:48:50 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:48:50 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A dose of Hosstyle Sunday Humor
In-Reply-To: David Morelli <jo.david@verizon.net>'s message of Sun, 28 Feb
	2010 20:08:25 -0800
Message-ID: <1469-4B8B4732-10003@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

your very welcome David...

I have a very feral katt that moved in about 5 or 6 months ago, and
looks some what-like Garfield,  Some where along the way he must of been
a house katt, for it did not take him long become stable with his new
surroundings.  First Katt I have ever had that does not kneed.  And he
does not purr he has sort of a raspy snore.  
He will not use the sand box, so I cut him Katt door in a window behind
my wood stove so he can go and come as he pleases.  
 My other katt Skeeter does not care for him, and lets him know it,
especially when skeeter comes in, and spies Garfield laying across my
chest wearing a Chesser-Katts Grin.   
And I mentioned large, because when I took him to the Vets awhile back
to get his shots he weighed in close to 25 pounds.  He is not much of a
mouser, but he is sure is heck on the gophers, and Shrews, and I suppose
I'll loose a hummer or two..