From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Jul 1 10:10:53 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:10:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My last 3 cents worth Message-ID: <15961-4C2CCC1D-2443@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I'm gettin' out before this happens to me!!! http://tinyurl.com/3-worth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100701/30531624/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 1 12:17:54 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:17:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Can Your Genes Make You Murder? Message-ID: <004b01cb1952$1d88d330$589a7990$@com> Can Your Genes Make You Murder? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128043329 July 1, 2010 by Barbara Bradley Hagerty Last in a three-part series When the police arrived at Bradley Waldroup's trailer home in the mountains of Tennessee, they found a war zone. There was blood on the walls, blood on the carpet, blood on the truck outside, even blood on the Bible that Waldroup had been reading before all hell broke loose. Assistant District Attorney Drew Robinson says that on Oct. 16, 2006, Waldroup was waiting for his estranged wife to arrive with their four kids for the weekend. He had been drinking, and when his wife said she was leaving with her friend, Leslie Bradshaw, they began to fight. Soon, Waldroup had shot Bradshaw eight times and sliced her head open with a sharp object. When Waldroup was finished with her, he chased after his wife, Penny, with a machete, chopping off her finger and cutting her over and over. "There are murders and then there are ... hacking to death, trails of blood," says prosecutor Cynthia Lecroy-Schemel. "I have not seen one like this. And I have done a lot." Prosecutors charged Waldroup with the felony murder of Bradshaw, which carries the death penalty, and attempted first-degree murder of his wife. It seemed clear to them that Waldroup's actions were intentional and premeditated. "There were numerous things he did around the crime scene that were conscious choices," Lecroy-Schemel says. "One of them was [that] he told his children to 'come tell your mama goodbye,' because he was going to kill her. And he had the gun, and he had the machete." It was a pretty straightforward case. Even Waldroup said so during his trial last year. He said on the murderous night, he just "snapped," and he admitted that he killed Leslie Bradshaw and attacked his wife. "I'm not proud of none of it," Waldroup said. "It wasn't a who done it?" says defense attorney Wylie Richardson. "It was a why done it?" A Dangerous Mix Richardson says he realized that the testimony at trial would be "very graphic." The defense team, he says, did not try to dismantle the graphic evidence but rather sought to "give a broader and fuller picture of what that was." How to do that? The answer, it turned out, lay in Bradley Waldroup's genes. Immediately, Richardson went to forensic psychiatrist William Bernet of Vanderbilt University and asked him to give Waldroup a psychiatric evaluation. Bernet also took a blood sample and brought it to Vanderbilt's Molecular Genetics Laboratory. Since 2004, Bernet and laboratory director Cindy Vnencak-Jones have been analyzing the DNA of people like Waldroup. They've tested some 30 criminal defendants, most of whom were charged with murder. They were looking for a particular variant of the MAO-A gene - also known as the warrior gene because it has been associated with violence. Bernet says they found that Waldroup has the high-risk version of the gene. "His genetic makeup, combined with his history of child abuse, together created a vulnerability that he would be a violent adult," Bernet explains. Over the fierce opposition of prosecutors, the judge allowed Bernet to testify in court that these two factors help explain why Waldroup snapped that murderous night. "We didn't say these things made him become violent, but they certainly constituted a risk factor or a vulnerability," Bernet says. Bernet cited scientific studies over the past decade that found that the combination of the high-risk gene and child abuse increases one's chances of being convicted of a violent offense by more than 400 percent. He notes that other studies have not found a connection between the MAO-A gene and violence - but he told the jury that he felt the genes and childhood abuse were a dangerous cocktail. "A person doesn't choose to have this particular gene or this particular genetic makeup," Bernet says. "A person doesn't choose to be abused as a child. So I think that should be taken into consideration when we're talking about criminal responsibility." Genetics, Or Smoke And Mirrors? The genetic testing was only one piece of Waldroup's defense. His attorneys also argued that Waldroup was depressed, suffered from "intermittent explosive disorder" and acted in the heat of passion. Still, defense co-attorney Shari Tayloe Young says the genetic evidence was critical. "I think if that wasn't out there, then all the jury would have seen are all these terrible pictures where he took a machete and hacked at his wife," she says. "And they would have thought, he's the worst of the worst, and that's what the death penalty is for - the worst of the worst. But because they heard all the mental issues, they understood what was going on in him and understood why he did what he did." Prosecutor Drew Robinson thinks this genetic evidence is "smoke and mirrors," aimed at confusing the jury. "The more of this information that you put before a jury, the [greater the] chances of confusing them and drawing their attention away from the facts and onto some other aspects of the case," Robinson says. "You always run that risk. And I just think that's asking the jury to grasp ahold of a little bit too much." To rebut Bernet's testimony, Robinson called in his own expert: psychiatrist Terry Holmes, the clinical director of Moccasin Bend Mental Health Institute in Chattanooga, Tenn. Holmes urged the jury to ignore it. "This was somebody who was intoxicated and mad and was gonna hurt somebody," Holmes says. "And it had little to nothing to do with his genetic makeup." Holmes says it's way too early to use this research in a court of law. And he believes Bernet is spinning the data. But jurors say they weren't spun. Sheri Lard, one of the 12, says it was just one piece of evidence that weighed heavily for some - and for others, not at all. "We had your good old boys who wanted to stick it to him," Lard says, laughing. "You had your grandmother types who felt sorry for him. And then you had the medical ones. The medical ones were the ones who wanted to do due diligence." Genetic Evidence A Factor But Lard says the genetic evidence did figure into a major decision - whether to find Waldroup guilty of murder and impose the death penalty. The jurors concluded that his actions were not premeditated and agreed with the defense argument that Waldroup just exploded. "I remember when we were talking as a jury, the comment was brought up, 'You know, if I were in this situation, I would snap.' But there was more to it. There was more to his whole life that led to that moment," Lard says. Including his genes? "Oh I'm sure," Lard says. "And his background - nature vs. nurture." Another juror, Debbie Beaty, says the science helped persuade her that Waldroup was not entirely in control of his actions. "Evidently it's just something that doesn't tick right," Beaty says. "Some people without this would react totally different than he would." And even though prosecutors tried to play down the genetic evidence, Beaty felt it was a major factor. "A diagnosis is a diagnosis, it's there," she says. "A bad gene is a bad gene." After 11 hours of deliberation, the jury convicted Waldroup of voluntary manslaughter - not murder - and attempted second-degree murder. Prosecutor Drew Robinson was stunned. "I was just flabbergasted. I did not know how to react to it," Robinson says. Nor did fellow prosecutor Cynthia Lecroy-Schemel. She worries that this sort of defense is the wave of the future. "Anything that defense attorneys can have to latch onto to save their client's life or to lessen their client's culpability, they will do it," Lecroy-Schemel says. Waldroup's attorney, Wylie Richardson, says she's right. "I would use it again" under the right circumstances, he says. "It seemed to work in this case." The judge in the case sentenced Waldroup to 32 years in prison. At the hearing, Judge Carroll Ross told Waldroup he should think twice about appealing. The state might not mind trying this again and asking for the death penalty, the judge said. You might not be as fortunate with a jury the next time. Scientists and legal experts expect to see more cases like this as neuroscience makes inroads into the courtroom, and presents guilt and innocence - not in terms of black and white - but in shades of gray. From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 1 12:17:54 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:17:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate Message-ID: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128116806 June 30, 2010 by Barbara Bradley Hagerty Second in a three-part series Kent Kiehl has studied hundreds of psychopaths. Kiehl is one of the world's leading investigators of psychopathy and a professor at the University of New Mexico. He says he can often see it in their eyes: There's an intensity in their stare, as if they're trying to pick up signals on how to respond. But the eyes are not an element of psychopathy, just a clue. Officially, Kiehl scores their pathology on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, which measures traits such as the inability to feel empathy or remorse, pathological lying, or impulsivity. "The scores range from zero to 40," Kiehl explains in his sunny office overlooking a golf course. "The average person in the community, a male, will score about 4 or 5. Your average inmate will score about 22. An individual with psychopathy is typically described as 30 or above. Brian scored 38.5 basically. He was in the 99th percentile." "Brian" is Brian Dugan, a man who is serving two life sentences for rape and murder in Chicago. Last July, Dugan pleaded guilty to raping and murdering 10-year-old Jeanine Nicarico in 1983, and he was put on trial to determine whether he should be executed. Kiehl was hired by the defense to do a psychiatric evaluation. In a videotaped interview with Kiehl, Dugan describes how he only meant to rob the Nicaricos' home. But then he saw the little girl inside. "She came to the door and ... I clicked," Dugan says in a flat, emotionless voice. "I turned into Mr. Hyde from Dr. Jekyll." On screen, Dugan is dressed in an orange jumpsuit. He seems calm, even normal - until he lifts his hands to take a sip of water and you see the handcuffs. Dugan is smart - his IQ is over 140 - but he admits he has always had shallow emotions. He tells Kiehl that in his quarter century in prison, he believes he's developed a sense of remorse. "And I have empathy, too - but it's like it just stops," he says. "I mean, I start to feel, but something just blocks it. I don't know what it is." Kiehl says he's heard all this before: All psychopaths claim they feel terrible about their crimes for the benefit of the parole board. "But then you ask them, 'What do you mean, you feel really bad?' And Brian will look at you and go, 'What do you mean, what does it mean?' They look at you like, 'Can you give me some help? A hint? Can I call a friend?' They have no way of really getting at that at all," Kiehl says. Kiehl says the reason people like Dugan cannot access their emotions is that their physical brains are different. And he believes he has the brain scans to prove it. Brain Scanning In A Mobile MRI On a crystal clear June morning at Albuquerque's Youth Diagnostic and Development Center, juveniles who have been convicted of violent offenses march by, craning their necks as a huge trailer drives through the gates. This is Kiehl's prize - a $2 million mobile MRI provided by the Mind Research Network at the University of New Mexico. Kiehl transports the mobile MRI to maximum-security prisons around the state, and over the past few years, he has scanned the brains of more than 1,100 inmates, about 20 percent of whom are psychopaths. For ethical reasons, Kiehl could not allow me to watch an inmate's brain being scanned, so he asked his researchers to demonstrate. After a few minutes of preparation, researcher Kevin Bache settles into the brain scanner, where he can look up and see a screen. On the screen flashes three types of pictures. One kind depicts a moral violation: He sees several hooded Klansmen setting a cross on fire. Another type is emotional but morally ambiguous: a car that is on fire but you don't know why. Another type of photo is neutral: for example, students standing around a Bunsen burner. The subjects rate whether the picture is a moral violation on a scale of 1 to 5. Kiehl says most psychopaths do not differ from normal subjects in the way they rate the photos: Both psychopaths and the average person rank the KKK with a burning cross as a moral violation. But there's a key difference: Psychopaths' brains behave differently from that of a nonpsychopathic person. When a normal person sees a morally objectionable photo, his limbic system lights up. This is what Kiehl calls the "emotional circuit," involving the orbital cortex above the eyes and the amygdala deep in the brain. But Kiehl says when psychopaths like Dugan see the KKK picture, their emotional circuit does not engage in the same way. "We have a lot of data that shows psychopaths do tend to process this information differently," Kiehl says. "And Brian looked like he was processing it like the other individuals we've studied with psychopathy." Kiehl says the emotional circuit may be what stops a person from breaking into that house or killing that girl. But in psychopaths like Dugan, the brakes don't work. Kiehl says psychopaths are a little like people with very low IQs who are not fully responsible for their actions. The courts treat people with low IQs differently. For example, they can't get the death penalty. "What if I told you that a psychopath has an emotional IQ that's like a 5-year-old?" Kiehl asks. "Well, if that was the case, we'd make the same argument for individuals with low emotional IQ - that maybe they're not as deserving of punishment, not as deserving of culpability, etc." Implications Of The Diagnosis And that's exactly what Dugan's lawyers argued at trial last November. Attorney Steven Greenberg said that Dugan was not criminally insane. He knew right from wrong. But he was incapable of making the right choices. "Someone shouldn't be executed for a condition that they were born with, because it's not their fault," Greenberg says. "The crime is their fault, and he wasn't saying it wasn't his fault, and he wasn't saying, give [me] a free pass. But he was saying, don't kill me because it's not my fault that I was born this way." This argument troubles Steven Erickson, a forensic psychologist and legal scholar at Widener University School of Law. He notes that alcoholics have brain abnormalities. Do we give them a pass if they kill someone while driving drunk? "What about folks who suffer from depression? They have brain abnormalities, too. Should they be entitled to [an] excuse under the law?" he asks. "I think the key idea here is the law is not interested in brain abnormalities. The law is interested in whether or not someone at the time that the criminal act occurred understood the difference between right and wrong." At trial, Jonathan Brodie, a psychiatrist at NYU Medical School who was the prosecution's expert witness, went further. Even if Dugan's brain is abnormal, he testified, the brain does not dictate behavior. "There may be many, many people who also have psychopathic tendencies and have similar scans, who don't do antisocial behavior, who don't rape and kill," Brodie says. Moreover, Brodie told the jury, Dugan's brain scan in 2009 says nothing about what his brain was like when he killed Jeanine Nicarico. "I don't know with Brian Dugan what was going on in his brain" when he committed his crime, Brodie says. "And I certainly don't know what was going on from a brain scan that was taken 24 years later." The jury seemed to zero in on the science, asking to reread all the testimony about the neuroscience during 10 hours of deliberation. But in the end, they sentenced Dugan to death. Dugan is appealing the sentence. In the meantime, this case signals the beginning of a revolution in the courtroom, Kiehl says. "Neuroscience and neuroimaging is going to change the whole philosophy about how we punish and how we decide who to incapacitate and how we decide how to deal with people," he says, echoing comments of a growing number of leading scholars across the country, including Princeton and Harvard. Just like DNA, he believes brain scans will eventually be standard fare. And that, he and others say, could upend our notions of culpability, crime and punishment. From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 1 12:38:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:38:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Maywood, CA (was: A few people on the list who have not forgotten the meaning of community.) In-Reply-To: <4C2A9267.000005.00200@DON-B2514E06367> References: <0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net> <4D216B0F-0998-4516-8985-75D75CD4E569@verizon.net> <548904ACEB874D6AAD6D4121052A5EA8@JeffVAIO> <00BD2366-3CD1-40AF-97DB-0FD5EF63C234@verizon.net> <364704577A8D4B6787F7C7F033FC3720@JeffVAIO> <4C28E681.00000A.01152@DON-B2514E06367> <7F5969CE-3913-474A-B127-C4041251BD0E@verizon.net> <4C2A9267.000005.00200@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <007001cb1954$eec5aa70$cc50ff50$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > I just read a news item about Maywood, CA (sanctuary city) > filing bankruptcy and all city employees lost their jobs. > > It didn't say anything about the schools, so we can hope > for the best there. > > http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=172121 The WND, as usual, is quite off-base with its reporting. Not surprisingly this article is a cover for a sales pitch for Corsi's "Red Alert" reports which is a service you have to pay $99/year for. The last third of the article is just a puff piece on Corsi and his writing. Maywood is not filing bankruptcy. It's laying off city employees and outsourcing its operations to avoid bankruptcy which isn't really an option for them anyway. "Faced with skyrocketing insurance costs, rather than declare bankruptcy, the city of Maywood, Calif., has decided to outsource its operations - including its police force - to neighboring cities." [1] It's not straddled with issues caused by immigrants, but with an insurance cost that's gotten out of control, in part, due to a police force that has gone too far too many times and gotten slapped with expensive lawsuits. It got so bad the insurance policy for the city was canceled. "What's plaguing the 86-year-old city is $12 million in lawsuits against its troubled police force. Allegations of assault and civil rights violations have led to the cancellation of the city's liability insurance and workers' compensation last month." [1] This isn't something that just happened overnight either, it's been in the works for the last five years, at least. "(June 23, 2010 -- Maywood, CA) The City of Maywood is developing an innovative strategy to continue to provide residents quality and uninterrupted public services. As such, the City of Maywood will contract out all of its municipal services to help offset its costs associated with the recent loss of its insurance and workers compensation as well as shrinking grants and funding from both the state and the federal government. "Our community will continue to receive quality services", stated Mayor Ana Rosa Rizo. "Maywood's streets will continue to be swept, our summer park programs will continue to operate, and our waste will be collected and hauled as scheduled. Further, the community will be protected and patrolled by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department". The City is seeking to contract out an additional portion of its municipal services given that its insurance carrier, the Joint Powers Insurance Authority (JPIA) will terminate its coverage effective June 30, 2010. The City of Maywood will lose its workers compensation and commercial insurance due to it claims history over the last five years as reflected in 2005-2010 Loss Summary Statements. As a result, the City of Maywood will be unable to administer a traditional staff." [2] Maywood also failed to hire a city manager, a requirement that came down from the insurer, resulting in them finally losing their insurance. "Last month, the California Joint Powers Insurance Authority notified Maywood that it was terminating general liability and workers' compensation coverage because the city posed too high a risk. A large number of claims filed against the police were a significant factor in that decision. Jonathan Shull, chief executive officer of the insurance authority, said Maywood was the first city to have its insurance cancelled by the group. The insurer acted after Maywood failed to make basic improvements the insurer had mandated, including hiring a permanent city manager, he said." [3] The public schools in Maywood (at least 10 by my count) are all part of the Los Angeles Unified School District so probably don't rely on city monies or city insurance and are therefore immune to this issue. [4] Corsi wants to make the claim that it's about illegal immigrants, which very well may be a part of the equation. However, he fails to provide any sort of compelling evidence that illegal immigrants have anything to do with it and conveniently overlooks and refuses to mention all the evidence available that support alternative ideas about the reasons for the cities demise. [1] http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128232549 [2] http://www.cityofmaywood.com/ [3] http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0623-maywood-20100623,0,7006423.stor y [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywood,_California#Education Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 13:39:13 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:39:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My last 3 cents worth In-Reply-To: <15961-4C2CCC1D-2443@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15961-4C2CCC1D-2443@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I use a portable lap computer instead. David On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I'm gettin' out before this happens to me!!! > > http://tinyurl.com/3-worth > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 13:43:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:43:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Trees as newspapers without cutting them References: <4C2C8FAB.95AF.0029.0@PRD.STATE.OR.US> Message-ID: <42C3022D-8E37-4723-9BD4-5D2C511F77F6@verizon.net> > > OREGON HERITAGE TREE TO BE DEDICATED AT CEREMONY > The Oregon Heritage Tree Committee, administered by the Oregon Travel > Information Council, will be holding a dedication ceremony for the 53rd > Oregon Heritage Tree site, the Aspen Arborglyph Trees, near Frenchglen, > Oregon. The dedication will be held at the Fish Lake Campground, off > Steens Mountain Loop Road, at 2:00pm on Saturday, July 10, 2010. > Oregon's Aspen Arborglyph trees are located in the Steens Mountains > sixty miles south of Burns. These are native trees which are 50 to 100 > years of age and are connected to the history of Basque sheepherders. > During the summer months, until 1934's Taylor Grazing Act, the Steens > Mountains were open range land for up to 100,000 sheep. Basque > sheepherders who worked at the top of the Steens in the early and middle > 20th century often used pocket knives or nails to carve names, dates, > messages, poems, and drawings into the bark of the aspens. The carvings > found in the arborglyphs were lightly carved into the bark by these men > as means of letting one another know who had passed by each place, to > make notes about the sheep or create pictures. Sometimes carvings would > name hometowns or comment about future hopes and dreams. For more > information check out the TIC website: > http://www.oregontic.com/heritage/trees2-dedication2010.php Or > contact Heather Swanson: 503 - 378 - 2178 From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 13:46:59 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:46:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Now I guess I need to change my Grovenet e-mail address Message-ID: <8369A74A-C97F-47A8-9697-9E75123128EF@verizon.net> Since the verizon.net is going away, I will need to get the new one on file after reading the instructions. David From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 1 14:25:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 14:25:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: Interesting! Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, then so be it. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128116806 > June 30, 2010 by Barbara Bradley Hagerty > > Second in a three-part series > > Kent Kiehl has studied hundreds of psychopaths. Kiehl is one of the > world's > leading investigators of psychopathy and a professor at the > University of > New Mexico. He says he can often see it in their eyes: There's an > intensity > in their stare, as if they're trying to pick up signals on how to > respond. > But the eyes are not an element of psychopathy, just a clue. > > Officially, Kiehl scores their pathology on the Hare Psychopathy > Checklist, > which measures traits such as the inability to feel empathy or > remorse, > pathological lying, or impulsivity. > > "The scores range from zero to 40," Kiehl explains in his sunny office > overlooking a golf course. "The average person in the community, a > male, > will score about 4 or 5. Your average inmate will score about 22. An > individual with psychopathy is typically described as 30 or above. > Brian > scored 38.5 basically. He was in the 99th percentile." > > "Brian" is Brian Dugan, a man who is serving two life sentences for > rape and > murder in Chicago. Last July, Dugan pleaded guilty to raping and > murdering > 10-year-old Jeanine Nicarico in 1983, and he was put on trial to > determine > whether he should be executed. Kiehl was hired by the defense to do a > psychiatric evaluation. > > In a videotaped interview with Kiehl, Dugan describes how he only > meant to > rob the Nicaricos' home. But then he saw the little girl inside. > > "She came to the door and ... I clicked," Dugan says in a flat, > emotionless > voice. "I turned into Mr. Hyde from Dr. Jekyll." > > On screen, Dugan is dressed in an orange jumpsuit. He seems calm, even > normal - until he lifts his hands to take a sip of water and you > see the > handcuffs. Dugan is smart - his IQ is over 140 - but he admits he > has always > had shallow emotions. He tells Kiehl that in his quarter century in > prison, > he believes he's developed a sense of remorse. > > "And I have empathy, too - but it's like it just stops," he says. > "I mean, I > start to feel, but something just blocks it. I don't know what it is." > > Kiehl says he's heard all this before: All psychopaths claim they feel > terrible about their crimes for the benefit of the parole board. > > "But then you ask them, 'What do you mean, you feel really bad?' > And Brian > will look at you and go, 'What do you mean, what does it mean?' > They look at > you like, 'Can you give me some help? A hint? Can I call a friend?' > They > have no way of really getting at that at all," Kiehl says. > > Kiehl says the reason people like Dugan cannot access their > emotions is that > their physical brains are different. And he believes he has the > brain scans > to prove it. > > Brain Scanning In A Mobile MRI > > On a crystal clear June morning at Albuquerque's Youth Diagnostic and > Development Center, juveniles who have been convicted of violent > offenses > march by, craning their necks as a huge trailer drives through the > gates. > This is Kiehl's prize - a $2 million mobile MRI provided by the Mind > Research Network at the University of New Mexico. Kiehl transports the > mobile MRI to maximum-security prisons around the state, and over > the past > few years, he has scanned the brains of more than 1,100 inmates, > about 20 > percent of whom are psychopaths. > > For ethical reasons, Kiehl could not allow me to watch an inmate's > brain > being scanned, so he asked his researchers to demonstrate. > > After a few minutes of preparation, researcher Kevin Bache settles > into the > brain scanner, where he can look up and see a screen. On the screen > flashes > three types of pictures. One kind depicts a moral violation: He > sees several > hooded Klansmen setting a cross on fire. Another type is emotional but > morally ambiguous: a car that is on fire but you don't know why. > Another > type of photo is neutral: for example, students standing around a > Bunsen > burner. > > The subjects rate whether the picture is a moral violation on a > scale of 1 > to 5. Kiehl says most psychopaths do not differ from normal > subjects in the > way they rate the photos: Both psychopaths and the average person > rank the > KKK with a burning cross as a moral violation. But there's a key > difference: > Psychopaths' brains behave differently from that of a nonpsychopathic > person. When a normal person sees a morally objectionable photo, > his limbic > system lights up. This is what Kiehl calls the "emotional circuit," > involving the orbital cortex above the eyes and the amygdala deep > in the > brain. But Kiehl says when psychopaths like Dugan see the KKK > picture, their > emotional circuit does not engage in the same way. > > "We have a lot of data that shows psychopaths do tend to process this > information differently," Kiehl says. "And Brian looked like he was > processing it like the other individuals we've studied with > psychopathy." > > Kiehl says the emotional circuit may be what stops a person from > breaking > into that house or killing that girl. But in psychopaths like > Dugan, the > brakes don't work. Kiehl says psychopaths are a little like people > with very > low IQs who are not fully responsible for their actions. The courts > treat > people with low IQs differently. For example, they can't get the death > penalty. > > "What if I told you that a psychopath has an emotional IQ that's > like a > 5-year-old?" Kiehl asks. "Well, if that was the case, we'd make the > same > argument for individuals with low emotional IQ - that maybe they're > not as > deserving of punishment, not as deserving of culpability, etc." > > Implications Of The Diagnosis > > And that's exactly what Dugan's lawyers argued at trial last November. > Attorney Steven Greenberg said that Dugan was not criminally > insane. He knew > right from wrong. But he was incapable of making the right choices. > > "Someone shouldn't be executed for a condition that they were born > with, > because it's not their fault," Greenberg says. "The crime is their > fault, > and he wasn't saying it wasn't his fault, and he wasn't saying, > give [me] a > free pass. But he was saying, don't kill me because it's not my > fault that I > was born this way." > > This argument troubles Steven Erickson, a forensic psychologist and > legal > scholar at Widener University School of Law. He notes that > alcoholics have > brain abnormalities. Do we give them a pass if they kill someone while > driving drunk? > > "What about folks who suffer from depression? They have brain > abnormalities, > too. Should they be entitled to [an] excuse under the law?" he > asks. "I > think the key idea here is the law is not interested in brain > abnormalities. > The law is interested in whether or not someone at the time that the > criminal act occurred understood the difference between right and > wrong." > > At trial, Jonathan Brodie, a psychiatrist at NYU Medical School who > was the > prosecution's expert witness, went further. Even if Dugan's brain is > abnormal, he testified, the brain does not dictate behavior. > > "There may be many, many people who also have psychopathic > tendencies and > have similar scans, who don't do antisocial behavior, who don't > rape and > kill," Brodie says. > > Moreover, Brodie told the jury, Dugan's brain scan in 2009 says > nothing > about what his brain was like when he killed Jeanine Nicarico. > > "I don't know with Brian Dugan what was going on in his brain" when he > committed his crime, Brodie says. "And I certainly don't know what > was going > on from a brain scan that was taken 24 years later." > > The jury seemed to zero in on the science, asking to reread all the > testimony about the neuroscience during 10 hours of deliberation. > But in the > end, they sentenced Dugan to death. Dugan is appealing the sentence. > > In the meantime, this case signals the beginning of a revolution in > the > courtroom, Kiehl says. > > "Neuroscience and neuroimaging is going to change the whole > philosophy about > how we punish and how we decide who to incapacitate and how we > decide how to > deal with people," he says, echoing comments of a growing number of > leading > scholars across the country, including Princeton and Harvard. > > Just like DNA, he believes brain scans will eventually be standard > fare. And > that, he and others say, could upend our notions of culpability, > crime and > punishment. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 18:28:10 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:28:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of their actions. And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a crime actually commit the crime as charged?" David On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Interesting! > Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, then so be it. > WW From obrzl at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 18:51:31 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:51:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] they don't hate us 'cuz we're free Message-ID: <580776737.14986.1278035491947.JavaMail.root@vznit170066> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100701/14715a73/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 20:31:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:31:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] they don't hate us 'cuz we're free References: <580776737.14986.1278035491947.JavaMail.root@vznit170066> Message-ID: <4C2D5D9A.00000B.03852@DON-B2514E06367> Seems the author was a mite biased in that he failed to tell the whole story of both sides of the barbed wire. Geographically speaking, while Israel was militarily weak in 1949, the King of Transjordan annexed the territory known today, but was not known long, as The West Bank. During the six day war in 1967 Israel took back the land that Jordan had seized. So geographically speaking The West Bank is part of Israel, owned by Israel, and the word "occupied" is not in full keeping with the facts. Going further, towns that Israel gave to the Palestinians the destroyed, dug up Jewish bodies from cemeteries and destroyed the bodies. Towns beautifully built by the Jews were destroyed in short order. Politically speaking, everyone living in Israel and whom are a citizen of Israel, should have equal rights to do what they need to do, and with full support of the government. But good citizens cannot remain good citizens when they continue to fight the settlers and start fights all over the place. And their statement that they were there first, is at best disingenuous. The author must be more objective if he wants to garner credibility. There is a lot of unfairness going on there, and the Palestinians, who speak Arabic as their claim to fame, have started their fair share of trouble. One cannot fault the settlers for defending themselves. First it was attacks by Syrians, then Jordanians, now it is Palestinians. The Palestinians do not want part of the land, or half of the land, they want all of the land. They have both been there a long time and need to learn to get along. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: obrzl at verizon.net Date: 7/1/2010 6:51:49 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] they don't hate us 'cuz we're free The Two Sides of a Barbed-Wire Fence By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF KARMEL, West Bank http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/01/opinion/01kristof html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is widely acknowledged to be unsustainable and costly to the country?s image. But one more blunt truth must be acknowledged: the occupation is morally repugnant. On one side of a barbed-wire fence here in the southern Hebron hills is the Bedouin village of Umm al-Kheir, where Palestinians live in ramshackle tents and huts. They aren?t allowed to connect to the electrical grid, and Israel won?t permit them to build homes, barns for their animals or even toilets. When the villagers build permanent structures, the Israeli authorities come and demolish them, according to villagers and Israeli human rights organizations. On the other side of the barbed wire is the Jewish settlement of Karmel, a lovely green oasis that looks like an American suburb. It has lush gardens, kids riding bikes and air-conditioned homes. It also has a gleaming, electrified poultry barn that it runs as a business. Elad Orian, an Israeli human rights activist, nodded toward the poultry barn and noted: ?Those chickens get more electricity and water than all the Palestinians around here.? It?s fair to acknowledge that there are double standards in the Middle East, with particular scrutiny on Israeli abuses. After all, the biggest theft of Arab land in the Middle East has nothing to do with Palestinians: It is Morocco?s robbery of the resource-rich Western Sahara from the people who live there. None of that changes the ugly truth that our ally, Israel, is using American military support to maintain an occupation that is both oppressive and unjust. Israel has eased checkpoints this year ? a real improvement in quality of life ? but the system is intrinsically malignant. B?Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization that I?ve long admired, took me to the southern Hebron hills to see the particularly serious inequities Palestinians face here. Apparently because it covets this area for settlement expansion, Israel has concocted a series of feeble excuses to drive out Palestinians from villages here or make their lives so wretched that they leave on their own. ?It?s an ongoing attempt by the authorities to push people out,? said Sarit Michaeli, a B?Tselem spokeswoman. In the village of Tuba, some Palestinian farmers live in caves off the grid because permanent structures are destroyed for want of building permits that are never granted. The farmers seethe as they struggle to collect rainwater while a nearby settlement, Maon, luxuriates in water piped in by the Israeli authorities. ?They plant trees and gardens and have plenty of water,? complained Ibrahim Jundiya, who raises sheep and camels in Tuba. ?And we don?t even have enough to drink. Even though we were here before them.? Mr. Jundiya said that when rainwater runs out, his family must buy tankers of water at a price of $11 per cubic meter. That?s at least four times what many Israelis and settlers pay. Violent clashes with Israeli settlers add to the burden. In Tuba, Palestinian children walking to elementary school have sometimes been attacked by Israeli settlers. To protect the children, foreign volunteers from Christian Peacemaker Teams and Operation Dove began escorting the children in the 2004-05 school year ? and then settlers beat the volunteers with chains and clubs, according to human rights reports and a news account from the time. Attacks on foreign volunteers get more attention than attacks on Palestinians, so the Israeli Army then began to escort the Palestinian children of Tuba to and from elementary school. But the soldiers don?t always show up, the children say, and then the kids take an hour and a half roundabout path to school to avoid going near the settlers. For their part, settlers complain about violence by Palestinians, and it?s true that there were several incidents in this area between 1998 and 2002 in which settlers were killed. Partly because of rock-throwing clashes between Arabs and Israelis, the Israeli Army often keeps Palestinians well away from Israeli settlements ? even if Palestinian farmers then cannot farm their own land. Meanwhile, the settlements continue to grow, seemingly inexorably ? and that may be the most odious aspect of the occupation. In other respects, some progress is evident. Mr. Orian?s Israeli aid group ? Community, Energy and Technology in the Middle East ? has installed windmills and solar panels to provide a bit of electricity for Palestinians kept off the grid. And attacks from settlers have dropped significantly, in part because B?Tselem has equipped many Palestinian families with video cameras to document and deter assaults. Still, a pregnant 19-year-old Palestinian woman in the village of At-Tuwani was hospitalized this month after an attack by settlers. Israel has a point when it argues that relinquishing the West Bank would raise real security concerns. But we must not lose sight of the most basic fact about the occupation: It?s wrong. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100701/5f29f173/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 1 21:37:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 21:37:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: David: Certainly I wouldn't suggest putting people away because they were "genetically predisposed to crime." That brings to mind all sorts of bad sci-fi stories, and would be blatantly unjust. However, in the case of someone who has committed and been convicted of a particularly horrific crime (or crimes), and who, by competent scientific opinion, lacks the qualities of empathy, self-control and moral judgement, that information should most certainly be taken into account in parole board hearings, appeals for pardons, etc. Certainly "he couldn't help it" might be a reasonable argument for sparing a murderer the death penalty (which I don't approve of anyway, for various reasons) but even if a choir of scientists proclaimed his helplessness in unison, a chorus of preachers pronounced him spiritually purified through suffering, and Eleanor Roosevelt herself came around with a plate of cookies and patted him on the head and called him a "poor dear boy," I do NOT believe that individual should be paroled, pardoned or otherwise released back into the public-- unless there is absolutely no legal grounds for holding him any longer. This opinion is grounded not on vindictiveness, but on common sense. You don't endanger innocent people by releasing a known psychopath, an uncontrollable human bomb, among them. What brings this to mind is the case, some decades ago, of the highly intelligent murderer who wrote a critically acclaimed book about his intellectual redemption and moral regeneration in prison, was pardoned by the governor of his state on the strength of that book, and who then promptly celebrated his freedom by stabbing a waiter to death in a restaurant-- presumably for bringing him a dirty fork or something. I'd give a purty to know whether that guy would meet the three criteria advanced in this theory, but he has probably long since died in prison. What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy childhood. All the more reason to protect all children from abuse-- an obligation which our state's social services frequently fails to meet. One can only guess how many present-day psychopaths might have been rescued by intervention in childhood. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a > moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people > aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? > > I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. > After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people > with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science > cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the > science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of > their actions. > > And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can > say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. > The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a > crime actually commit the crime as charged?" > > David > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Interesting! >> Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to >> a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's >> past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with >> "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would >> amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, >> then so be it. >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Jul 1 22:11:00 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:11:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A844@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> I think Walt refers to Jack Henry Abbott...who was championed by the late Norman Mailer. Very sad case. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sent: July 01, 2010 9:35 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate David: Certainly I wouldn't suggest putting people away because they were "genetically predisposed to crime." That brings to mind all sorts of bad sci-fi stories, and would be blatantly unjust. However, in the case of someone who has committed and been convicted of a particularly horrific crime (or crimes), and who, by competent scientific opinion, lacks the qualities of empathy, self-control and moral judgement, that information should most certainly be taken into account in parole board hearings, appeals for pardons, etc. Certainly "he couldn't help it" might be a reasonable argument for sparing a murderer the death penalty (which I don't approve of anyway, for various reasons) but even if a choir of scientists proclaimed his helplessness in unison, a chorus of preachers pronounced him spiritually purified through suffering, and Eleanor Roosevelt herself came around with a plate of cookies and patted him on the head and called him a "poor dear boy," I do NOT believe that individual should be paroled, pardoned or otherwise released back into the public-- unless there is absolutely no legal grounds for holding him any longer. This opinion is grounded not on vindictiveness, but on common sense. You don't endanger innocent people by releasing a known psychopath, an uncontrollable human bomb, among them. What brings this to mind is the case, some decades ago, of the highly intelligent murderer who wrote a critically acclaimed book about his intellectual redemption and moral regeneration in prison, was pardoned by the governor of his state on the strength of that book, and who then promptly celebrated his freedom by stabbing a waiter to death in a restaurant-- presumably for bringing him a dirty fork or something. I'd give a purty to know whether that guy would meet the three criteria advanced in this theory, but he has probably long since died in prison. What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy childhood. All the more reason to protect all children from abuse-- an obligation which our state's social services frequently fails to meet. One can only guess how many present-day psychopaths might have been rescued by intervention in childhood. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a > moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people > aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? > > I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. > After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people > with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science > cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the > science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of > their actions. > > And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can > say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. > The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a > crime actually commit the crime as charged?" > > David > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Interesting! >> Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to >> a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's >> past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with >> "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would >> amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, >> then so be it. >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 22:20:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:20:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] they don't hate us 'cuz we're free In-Reply-To: <4C2D5D9A.00000B.03852@DON-B2514E06367> References: <580776737.14986.1278035491947.JavaMail.root@vznit170066> <4C2D5D9A.00000B.03852@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <490FA5E5-4480-482E-940E-F0855FF5F468@verizon.net> On Jul 1, 2010, at 8:31 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... > Geographically speaking, while Israel was militarily weak in 1949, the King of Transjordan annexed the territory known today, but was not known long, as The West Bank. > During the six day war in 1967 Israel took back the land that Jordan had seized. > > So geographically speaking The West Bank is part of Israel, owned by Israel, and the word "occupied" is not in full keeping with the facts. > Interesting memory of the history. The UN partitioned the British Palestine territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state in 1947. The Arab state included the West Bank, Gaza, and the Lebanon border area. The Arab state wasn't part of Israel at that point. So, how did someone annex "Israeli" territory? What did Israel do to "own" the Arab state? > ... > Politically speaking, everyone living in Israel and whom are a citizen of Israel, should have equal rights to do what they need to do, and with full support of the government. > > But good citizens cannot remain good citizens when they continue to fight the settlers and start fights all over the place. I understand that Israel has an interesting situation there. They offer citizenship to their occupants, but for arabs it is like the American offer of citizenship to negroes before the Civil Rights Act. They also offer Israeli nationality to all Jew throughout the world. The settlers are the world wide immigrants who come to Israel to displace the indigenous non-Jews. > > And their statement that they were there first, is at best disingenuous. We can presume that the arabs in Palestine in 1948, were there before the roughly 3 million Jewish immigrants who came since then, can't we? > > ... > They have both been there a long time and need to learn to get along. > > Donkelly From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 22:37:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:37:01 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: <4C2D7AFA.000010.03852@DON-B2514E06367> Gotta agree Walt. I wonder about how injuries fit into the picture. Can people become psychopaths due to injuries to the brain. Have any of you had a head injury in an accident of some kind and felt that you never mentally recovered 100%. I have, and that is why I ask........to figure out why. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/1/2010 9:35:48 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate David: Certainly I wouldn't suggest putting people away because they were "genetically predisposed to crime." That brings to mind all sorts of bad sci-fi stories, and would be blatantly unjust. However, in the case of someone who has committed and been convicted of a particularly horrific crime (or crimes), and who, by competent scientific opinion, lacks the qualities of empathy, self-control and moral judgement, that information should most certainly be taken into account in parole board hearings, appeals for pardons, etc. Certainly "he couldn't help it" might be a reasonable argument for sparing a murderer the death penalty (which I don't approve of anyway, for various reasons) but even if a choir of scientists proclaimed his helplessness in unison, a chorus of preachers pronounced him spiritually purified through suffering, and Eleanor Roosevelt herself came around with a plate of cookies and patted him on the head and called him a "poor dear boy," I do NOT believe that individual should be paroled, pardoned or otherwise released back into the public-- unless there is absolutely no legal grounds for holding him any longer. This opinion is grounded not on vindictiveness, but on common sense. You don't endanger innocent people by releasing a known psychopath, an uncontrollable human bomb, among them. What brings this to mind is the case, some decades ago, of the highly intelligent murderer who wrote a critically acclaimed book about his intellectual redemption and moral regeneration in prison, was pardoned by the governor of his state on the strength of that book, and who then promptly celebrated his freedom by stabbing a waiter to death in a restaurant-- presumably for bringing him a dirty fork or something. I'd give a purty to know whether that guy would meet the three criteria advanced in this theory, but he has probably long since died in prison. What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy childhood. All the more reason to protect all children from abuse-- an obligation which our state's social services frequently fails to meet. One can only guess how many present-day psychopaths might have been rescued by intervention in childhood. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a > moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people > aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? > > I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. > After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people > with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science > cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the > science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of > their actions. > > And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can > say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. > The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a > crime actually commit the crime as charged?" > > David > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Interesting! >> Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to >> a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's >> past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with >> "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would >> amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, >> then so be it. >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100701/d37db414/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 22:37:47 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:37:47 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A844@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C2D7B2B.000013.03852@DON-B2514E06367> How about Carl Chessman? -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 7/1/2010 10:11:06 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate I think Walt refers to Jack Henry Abbott...who was championed by the late Norman Mailer. Very sad case. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sent: July 01, 2010 9:35 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate David: Certainly I wouldn't suggest putting people away because they were "genetically predisposed to crime." That brings to mind all sorts of bad sci-fi stories, and would be blatantly unjust. However, in the case of someone who has committed and been convicted of a particularly horrific crime (or crimes), and who, by competent scientific opinion, lacks the qualities of empathy, self-control and moral judgement, that information should most certainly be taken into account in parole board hearings, appeals for pardons, etc. Certainly "he couldn't help it" might be a reasonable argument for sparing a murderer the death penalty (which I don't approve of anyway, for various reasons) but even if a choir of scientists proclaimed his helplessness in unison, a chorus of preachers pronounced him spiritually purified through suffering, and Eleanor Roosevelt herself came around with a plate of cookies and patted him on the head and called him a "poor dear boy," I do NOT believe that individual should be paroled, pardoned or otherwise released back into the public-- unless there is absolutely no legal grounds for holding him any longer. This opinion is grounded not on vindictiveness, but on common sense. You don't endanger innocent people by releasing a known psychopath, an uncontrollable human bomb, among them. What brings this to mind is the case, some decades ago, of the highly intelligent murderer who wrote a critically acclaimed book about his intellectual redemption and moral regeneration in prison, was pardoned by the governor of his state on the strength of that book, and who then promptly celebrated his freedom by stabbing a waiter to death in a restaurant-- presumably for bringing him a dirty fork or something. I'd give a purty to know whether that guy would meet the three criteria advanced in this theory, but he has probably long since died in prison. What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy childhood. All the more reason to protect all children from abuse-- an obligation which our state's social services frequently fails to meet. One can only guess how many present-day psychopaths might have been rescued by intervention in childhood. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a > moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people > aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? > > I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. > After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people > with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science > cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the > science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of > their actions. > > And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can > say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. > The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a > crime actually commit the crime as charged?" > > David > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Interesting! >> Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to >> a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's >> past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with >> "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would >> amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, >> then so be it. >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100701/810179c2/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 22:36:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:36:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: So, there are three criteria, not two. Shall we round up everyone who had an unhappy childhood, with the warrior gene and the particular brain issue? Or shall we accept that there are variations in people, and in the end those who ignore the rules of society should be removed from society? The question remains, "how to remove them?" David On Jul 1, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > David: > ... What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy childhood. ... > WW From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 1 22:49:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:49:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A844@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A844@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > I think Walt refers to Jack Henry Abbott...who was championed by > the late Norman Mailer. Very sad case. Yep, that's the bird.... good catch, Mike. WW From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 1 22:52:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:52:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: <4C2D7AFA.000010.03852@DON-B2514E06367> References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> <4C2D7AFA.000010.03852@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <5BBCA7D8-5F11-454D-9215-008EE3EFA97E@teleport.com> Quite definitely, brain lesions can cause a radical change in personality. Many people have reported aggressive behavior in formerly genial people who had suffered head injuries. WW On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > Gotta agree Walt. I wonder about how injuries fit into the picture. > > Can people become psychopaths due to injuries to the brain. > > Have any of you had a head injury in an accident of some kind and > felt that > you never mentally recovered 100%. > > I have, and that is why I ask........to figure out why. > > Don > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/1/2010 9:35:48 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing > Debate > > David: > Certainly I wouldn't suggest putting people away because they were > "genetically predisposed to crime." That brings to mind all sorts of > bad sci-fi stories, and would be blatantly unjust. However, in the > case of someone who has committed and been convicted of a > particularly horrific crime (or crimes), and who, by competent > scientific opinion, lacks the qualities of empathy, self-control and > moral judgement, that information should most certainly be taken into > account in parole board hearings, appeals for pardons, etc. > Certainly "he couldn't help it" might be a reasonable argument for > sparing a murderer the death penalty (which I don't approve of > anyway, for various reasons) but even if a choir of scientists > proclaimed his helplessness in unison, a chorus of preachers > pronounced him spiritually purified through suffering, and Eleanor > Roosevelt herself came around with a plate of cookies and patted him > on the head and called him a "poor dear boy," I do NOT believe that > individual should be paroled, pardoned or otherwise released back > into the public-- unless there is absolutely no legal grounds for > holding him any longer. This opinion is grounded not on > vindictiveness, but on common sense. You don't endanger innocent > people by releasing a known psychopath, an uncontrollable human bomb, > among them. > What brings this to mind is the case, some decades ago, of the highly > intelligent murderer who wrote a critically acclaimed book about his > intellectual redemption and moral regeneration in prison, was > pardoned by the governor of his state on the strength of that book, > and who then promptly celebrated his freedom by stabbing a waiter to > death in a restaurant-- presumably for bringing him a dirty fork or > something. I'd give a purty to know whether that guy would meet the > three criteria advanced in this theory, but he has probably long > since died in prison. > What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, however, was > that people who met two of the criteria-- possession of the "warrior > gene" and the lack of activity in the particular brain area-- were > nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people if they had a happy > childhood. All the more reason to protect all children from abuse-- > an obligation which our state's social services frequently fails to > meet. One can only guess how many present-day psychopaths might have > been rescued by intervention in childhood. > WW > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> If the science can determine who is/is not capable of making a >> moral decision, then shall we use that test to set those people >> aside so that we can "safeguard the public"? >> >> I doubt that you would appreciate that sort of public action. >> After all, the problem does not create the crimes. Some people >> with the problem become criminals and some don't. If the science >> cannot accurately predict those who will be criminals, then the >> science isn't a reason to relieve criminals of the consequences of >> their actions. >> >> And once the crime has been committed, what ever the reason, we can >> say that the perpetrator isn't qualified to be loose in society. >> The hard question for the law is "did the person charged with a >> crime actually commit the crime as charged?" >> >> David >> >> On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Interesting! >>> Certainly I'm not in favor of "free passes," which would amount to >>> a hunting license on innocent victims, but I really think it's >>> past time we abandoned our Puritanical legal obsession with >>> "revenge" and substituted "safeguarding the public." If this would >>> amount to "warehousing" congenitally violent criminals for life, >>> then so be it. >>> WW >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 1 23:00:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 23:00:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Inside A Psychopath's Brain: The Sentencing Debate In-Reply-To: References: <005901cb1952$1f3b6530$5db22f90$@com> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:36 PM, David Morelli wrote: > So, there are three criteria, not two. Shall we round up everyone > who had an unhappy childhood, with the warrior gene and the > particular brain issue? No, re-read my note. There may be three "predisposing" criteria, but actual behavior, conviction for violent crime and a scientific finding of psychopathy are the important things. It seems reasonable to expect that there are many people who meet all three "predisposing" criteria, yet still are decent people! > > Or shall we accept that there are variations in people, and in the > end those who ignore the rules of society should be removed from > society? > > The question remains, "how to remove them?" Well, I'm in favor of long-term imprisonment. The death penalty is brutalizing to everyone involved, and irrevocable in case of error... and also more expensive than imprisonment. WW > > David > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> David: >> ... What I found particularly interesting and encouraging, >> however, was that people who met two of the criteria-- possession >> of the "warrior gene" and the lack of activity in the particular >> brain area-- were nonetheless likely to be decent, empathic people >> if they had a happy childhood. ... >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 09:06:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:06:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Message-ID: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367> ? You can drive 600 miles and still save money on groceries ? Most of the real estate is vertical ? No one bowls: it?s darts ? You have a bear skin rug on the floor and a halibut skin Rug on the wall ? or the other way around ? Summer consists of Red season, King season, Pink Season, and Silver season. Fall begins with Moose season You want Honda to build a lawn mower with a snow Blowing attachment. In the winter you need a ladder to get to your front yard The edge of the Continental Shelf is less than a mile From your front door By spring time, some of the snow piles around town are Axle deep to a Ferris wheel Highest ratio of front end loaders to people of any city In America The birds eat the cats Does anyone want to write a "If you live in Forest Grove" list? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/a8c54835/attachment-0001.gif From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com Fri Jul 2 09:29:03 2010 From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 68, Issue 2 Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/50e47e31/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Jul 2 09:52:56 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:52:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] "LIFE ... In A Grove Of Nuts" In-Reply-To: "Beverly Wilson" 's message of Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: <19084-4C2E1968-1794@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://tinyurl.com/GroveNuts I was only planning on just lurking until my time ran out on 7/6/10, however, I just could not let this one get away from me.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/74c05b8c/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 2 10:05:51 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:05:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> Funny! And mostly true. Don't know about the halibut-skin rug, however. On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:06 AM, donkelly wrote: > ? You can drive 600 miles and still save money on groceries > ? Most of the real estate is vertical > ? No one bowls: it?s darts > ? You have a bear skin rug on the floor and a halibut skin > Rug on the wall ? or the other way around > ? Summer consists of Red season, King season, Pink > Season, and Silver season. Fall begins with Moose season > You want Honda to build a lawn mower with a snow > Blowing attachment. > In the winter you need a ladder to get to your front yard > The edge of the Continental Shelf is less than a mile > From your front door > By spring time, some of the snow piles around town are > Axle deep to a Ferris wheel > Highest ratio of front end loaders to people of any city > In America > The birds eat the cats > Does anyone want to write a "If you live in Forest Grove" list? > Don________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 10:10:50 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 17:10:50 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> Message-ID: <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> One day in Forest Grove, Summer came on a Saturday so more people got out to enjoy it. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:05:51 To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Funny! And mostly true. Don't know about the halibut-skin rug, however. On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:06 AM, donkelly wrote: > ? You can drive 600 miles and still save money on groceries > ? Most of the real estate is vertical > ? No one bowls: it?s darts > ? You have a bear skin rug on the floor and a halibut skin > Rug on the wall ? or the other way around > ? Summer consists of Red season, King season, Pink > Season, and Silver season. Fall begins with Moose season > You want Honda to build a lawn mower with a snow > Blowing attachment. > In the winter you need a ladder to get to your front yard > The edge of the Continental Shelf is less than a mile > From your front door > By spring time, some of the snow piles around town are > Axle deep to a Ferris wheel > Highest ratio of front end loaders to people of any city > In America > The birds eat the cats > Does anyone want to write a "If you live in Forest Grove" list? > Don________________________ >_______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 2 10:20:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:20:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> Contrary to popular belief, Forest Grove really does have four seasons: Cold Rain, Warm Rain, Deluge, and Don't Blink or You'll Miss It. On Jul 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Steve wrote: > One day in Forest Grove, Summer came on a Saturday so more people > got out to enjoy it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:05:51 > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests > list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > > Funny! And mostly true. Don't know about the halibut-skin rug, > however. > On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:06 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> ? You can drive 600 miles and still save money on groceries >> ? Most of the real estate is vertical >> ? No one bowls: it?s darts >> ? You have a bear skin rug on the floor and a halibut skin >> Rug on the wall ? or the other way around >> ? Summer consists of Red season, King season, Pink >> Season, and Silver season. Fall begins with Moose season >> You want Honda to build a lawn mower with a snow >> Blowing attachment. >> In the winter you need a ladder to get to your front yard >> The edge of the Continental Shelf is less than a mile >> From your front door >> By spring time, some of the snow piles around town are >> Axle deep to a Ferris wheel >> Highest ratio of front end loaders to people of any city >> In America >> The birds eat the cats >> Does anyone want to write a "If you live in Forest Grove" list? >> Don_______________________ >> _ >> _______________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 11:52:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:52:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> One thing Forest Grove has that Alaska does not have, and that is 2-3 growing seasons. In Alaska you have one whack at having a garden. What does grow up there grows to phenomenal sizes, one strawberry to a teacup, one pumpkin per pickup bed, 300 lb water melons, 5 lb tomatos, etc. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/2/2010 10:19:36 AM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Contrary to popular belief, Forest Grove really does have four seasons: Cold Rain, Warm Rain, Deluge, and Don't Blink or You'll Miss It. On Jul 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Steve wrote: > One day in Forest Grove, Summer came on a Saturday so more people > got out to enjoy it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:05:51 > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests > list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > > Funny! And mostly true. Don't know about the halibut-skin rug, > however. > On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:06 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> ? You can drive 600 miles and still save money on groceries >> ? Most of the real estate is vertical >> ? No one bowls: it?s darts >> ? You have a bear skin rug on the floor and a halibut skin >> Rug on the wall ? or the other way around >> ? Summer consists of Red season, King season, Pink >> Season, and Silver season. Fall begins with Moose season >> You want Honda to build a lawn mower with a snow >> Blowing attachment. >> In the winter you need a ladder to get to your front yard >> The edge of the Continental Shelf is less than a mile >> From your front door >> By spring time, some of the snow piles around town are >> Axle deep to a Ferris wheel >> Highest ratio of front end loaders to people of any city >> In America >> The birds eat the cats >> Does anyone want to write a "If you live in Forest Grove" list? >> Don_______________________ >> _ >> _______________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/b8b01b8f/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Jul 2 13:23:14 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:23:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > [...] What does grow up there grows to phenomenal > sizes, one strawberry to a teacup, one pumpkin per > pickup bed, 300 lb water melons, 5 lb tomatos, etc. I'm sure they're quite large, but surely not *this* large. Largest Strawberry - No idea on weight or origin http://www.metacafe.com/watch/712581/worlds_largest_strawberry_contest/ Largest Pumpkin - Alaska is 33rd in the US for record pumpkin sizes http://www.backyardgardener.com/record.html Largest Watermelon - 286.6 pounds, from Arkansas http://www.hopemelonfest.com/melon_heritage.htm Largest Tomato - 7 3/4 pounds, from Oklahoma http://www.openwriting.com/archives/2007/09/the_biggest_tom_1.php I'll give you the "one strawberry to a teacup" and the vague "one pumpkin per pickup bed" (assuming it's a compact truck bed), but the other two seem unfortunately inflated. Now, where Alaska *has* excelled in world records is the following -- All by John Evans of Palmer, AK: carrot weighing 18.9 pounds, red cabbage weighing 45.25 pounds, garden beet weighing 42.75 pounds, broccoli weighing 35 pounds. http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/vegetables.html A few more of John's world record monsters (like celery, kohlrabi, and swiss chard) are listed at: http://www.angelfire.com/pe/kennys/p10b.html Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green cabbage and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. Scott Robb grew a monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 pounds. Scott also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. http://community.adn.com/node/143372 http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking-vegetables.html I'm not much a plant person, but it seems to me that all of these world record plants are similar in composition. Also, from reading, it was mentioned that for all these record breaking entries that the pH of the soil where they were grown was very important and suggested it was unique to where they were grown in Alaska. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 2 13:40:17 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> Message-ID: <9A934481-D32C-45F2-A685-DAC992658B4B@teleport.com> Also, you must take into account the LONG hours of summer sunlight in the Far North. The poor veggies don't even have time for a catnap in midsummer, but just have to keep growing. On Jul 2, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> [...] What does grow up there grows to phenomenal >> sizes, one strawberry to a teacup, one pumpkin per >> pickup bed, 300 lb water melons, 5 lb tomatos, etc. > > I'm sure they're quite large, but surely not *this* large. > > Largest Strawberry - No idea on weight or origin > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/712581/ > worlds_largest_strawberry_contest/ > > Largest Pumpkin - Alaska is 33rd in the US for record pumpkin sizes > http://www.backyardgardener.com/record.html > > Largest Watermelon - 286.6 pounds, from Arkansas > http://www.hopemelonfest.com/melon_heritage.htm > > Largest Tomato - 7 3/4 pounds, from Oklahoma > http://www.openwriting.com/archives/2007/09/the_biggest_tom_1.php > > I'll give you the "one strawberry to a teacup" and the vague "one > pumpkin > per pickup bed" (assuming it's a compact truck bed), but the other > two seem > unfortunately inflated. > > Now, where Alaska *has* excelled in world records is the following > -- All by > John Evans of Palmer, AK: carrot weighing 18.9 pounds, red cabbage > weighing > 45.25 pounds, garden beet weighing 42.75 pounds, broccoli weighing 35 > pounds. > > http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/vegetables.html > > A few more of John's world record monsters (like celery, kohlrabi, > and swiss > chard) are listed at: > http://www.angelfire.com/pe/kennys/p10b.html > > Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green > cabbage > and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. Scott Robb grew a > monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 > pounds. Scott > also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. > > http://community.adn.com/node/143372 > http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking- > vegetables.html > > I'm not much a plant person, but it seems to me that all of these > world > record plants are similar in composition. Also, from reading, it was > mentioned that for all these record breaking entries that the pH of > the soil > where they were grown was very important and suggested it was > unique to > where they were grown in Alaska. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 13:56:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:56:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> Message-ID: <4C2E5280.000025.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Oh yes Jeff, those and these too. 1,000 lb pumpkin anyone? But had to gag on the halibut fur though. Caught a lot of them up to 457 lbs (they do get a lot bigger), but none had fur. For example, here is a list of state vegetable records set in last year's Alaska State Fair: 23-foot, 3 1/2-inch corn stalk 4.702-pound parsnip 1,019-pound pumpkin 17.195-pound yellow zucchini 67 1/8-inch long gourd 55.15-pound blue hubbard squash 21.530-pound bushel gourd In addition, there is a separate category focused entirely on cabbage. Last years winner of the Giant Cabbage Weigh-Off was Brenna Dinkel with her 73 4-pound cabbage (photo above). So, if big vegetables are your thing, make your way up to Palmer, Alaska August 23 - Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/2/2010 1:23:34 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Don, > From: donkelly > > [...] What does grow up there grows to phenomenal > sizes, one strawberry to a teacup, one pumpkin per > pickup bed, 300 lb water melons, 5 lb tomatos, etc. I'm sure they're quite large, but surely not *this* large. Largest Strawberry - No idea on weight or origin http://www.metacafe.com/watch/712581/worlds_largest_strawberry_contest/ Largest Pumpkin - Alaska is 33rd in the US for record pumpkin sizes http://www.backyardgardener.com/record.html Largest Watermelon - 286.6 pounds, from Arkansas http://www.hopemelonfest.com/melon_heritage.htm Largest Tomato - 7 3/4 pounds, from Oklahoma http://www.openwriting.com/archives/2007/09/the_biggest_tom_1.php I'll give you the "one strawberry to a teacup" and the vague "one pumpkin per pickup bed" (assuming it's a compact truck bed), but the other two seem unfortunately inflated. Now, where Alaska *has* excelled in world records is the following -- All by John Evans of Palmer, AK: carrot weighing 18.9 pounds, red cabbage weighing 45.25 pounds, garden beet weighing 42.75 pounds, broccoli weighing 35 pounds. http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/vegetables.html A few more of John's world record monsters (like celery, kohlrabi, and swiss chard) are listed at: http://www.angelfire.com/pe/kennys/p10b.html Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green cabbage and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. Scott Robb grew a monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 pounds. Scott also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. http://community.adn.com/node/143372 http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking-vegetables.html I'm not much a plant person, but it seems to me that all of these world record plants are similar in composition. Also, from reading, it was mentioned that for all these record breaking entries that the pH of the soil where they were grown was very important and suggested it was unique to where they were grown in Alaska. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/f6f1a9e5/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 14:14:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:14:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <9A934481-D32C-45F2-A685-DAC992658B4B@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C2E56AA.00002A.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Volcanic soil like we have here, and lots of river overflow (Knick) and 21 hour days help too. Where else can you drive all summer night without headlights? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/2/2010 1:38:50 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Also, you must take into account the LONG hours of summer sunlight in the Far North. The poor veggies don't even have time for a catnap in midsummer, but just have to keep growing. On Jul 2, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> [...] What does grow up there grows to phenomenal >> sizes, one strawberry to a teacup, one pumpkin per >> pickup bed, 300 lb water melons, 5 lb tomatos, etc. > > I'm sure they're quite large, but surely not *this* large. > > Largest Strawberry - No idea on weight or origin > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/712581/ > worlds_largest_strawberry_contest/ > > Largest Pumpkin - Alaska is 33rd in the US for record pumpkin sizes > http://www.backyardgardener.com/record.html > > Largest Watermelon - 286.6 pounds, from Arkansas > http://www.hopemelonfest.com/melon_heritage.htm > > Largest Tomato - 7 3/4 pounds, from Oklahoma > http://www.openwriting.com/archives/2007/09/the_biggest_tom_1.php > > I'll give you the "one strawberry to a teacup" and the vague "one > pumpkin > per pickup bed" (assuming it's a compact truck bed), but the other > two seem > unfortunately inflated. > > Now, where Alaska *has* excelled in world records is the following > -- All by > John Evans of Palmer, AK: carrot weighing 18.9 pounds, red cabbage > weighing > 45.25 pounds, garden beet weighing 42.75 pounds, broccoli weighing 35 > pounds. > > http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/vegetables.html > > A few more of John's world record monsters (like celery, kohlrabi, > and swiss > chard) are listed at: > http://www.angelfire.com/pe/kennys/p10b.html > > Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green > cabbage > and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. Scott Robb grew a > monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 > pounds. Scott > also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. > > http://community.adn.com/node/143372 > http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking- > vegetables.html > > I'm not much a plant person, but it seems to me that all of these > world > record plants are similar in composition. Also, from reading, it was > mentioned that for all these record breaking entries that the pH of > the soil > where they were grown was very important and suggested it was > unique to > where they were grown in Alaska. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/da8054a8/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Jul 2 14:53:24 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:53:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <4C2E5280.000025.03940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <4C2E5280.000025.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01d301cb1a30$ffe792f0$ffb6b8d0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Oh yes Jeff, those and these too. 1,000 lb pumpkin > anyone? Yes, that sounds big, but 2/3 of the states in the US have record-holders bigger than that. The largest one is 1,725 pounds making this 1,000 pounder seem barely above average size. http://www.pumpkinnook.com/giants/giantpumpkins.htm Speaking of fun with pumpkins... (though in this particular video they used a watermelon) Pumpkin Chuckin World Record http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtKyCrfmInA Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 2 15:11:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:11:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <01d301cb1a30$ffe792f0$ffb6b8d0$@com> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <4C2E5280.000025.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <01d301cb1a30$ffe792f0$ffb6b8d0$@com> Message-ID: <7059B5D9-0B53-4A93-9EFC-0227C09F8945@teleport.com> The state fairs probably have to get special liability insurance in case one of those monster pumpkins rolls over on somebody! On Jul 2, 2010, at 2:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] >> >> Oh yes Jeff, those and these too. 1,000 lb pumpkin >> anyone? > > Yes, that sounds big, but 2/3 of the states in the US have record- > holders > bigger than that. The largest one is 1,725 pounds making this > 1,000 pounder > seem barely above average size. > > http://www.pumpkinnook.com/giants/giantpumpkins.htm > > Speaking of fun with pumpkins... (though in this particular video > they used > a watermelon) > > Pumpkin Chuckin World Record > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtKyCrfmInA > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 15:46:48 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:46:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com> <196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com> <4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> Message-ID: It seems that the local headquarters for the International Rutabaga Institute (located here in Forest Grove) ought to investigate this claim, and if it's true, transport Mr. Robb and his giant rutabaga to the institute for further study. What say you Mike O? Should such a claim go unchallenged? But then again, you may be well ahead of me, and may have already obtained this rare nugget for the Rutabaga National Archives. Now this may sound completely mad to some, except that (and this will be new to some on the list) Forest Grove "is," indisputably, the Rutabaga capital of the world. jimz > Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green cabbage > and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. *Scott Robb grew a > monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 pounds.* Scott > also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. > > http://community.adn.com/node/143372 > http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking-vegetables.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 16:46:58 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:46:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> Message-ID: <9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC> Yes, we are not only "GroveNuts," but proud citizens of the world Rutabaga capital. ;-) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Zaleski" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:46 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > It seems that the local headquarters for the International Rutabaga > Institute (located here in Forest Grove) ought to investigate this claim, > and if it's true, transport Mr. Robb and his giant rutabaga to the > institute > for further study. What say you Mike O? Should such a claim go > unchallenged? > But then again, you may be well ahead of me, and may have already obtained > this rare nugget for the Rutabaga National Archives. > > Now this may sound completely mad to some, except that (and this will be > new > to some on the list) Forest Grove "is," indisputably, the Rutabaga capital > of the world. > > jimz > > >> Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green >> cabbage >> and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. *Scott Robb grew a >> monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 pounds.* >> Scott >> also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. >> >> http://community.adn.com/node/143372 >> http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking-vegetables.html >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 17:40:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 17:40:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC> Message-ID: <4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> First time I have heard that Jim. I never ate any. How is it cooked? What is a normal weight for a rutabaga? Does anyone around here grow corn over 20 feet tall? I know Iowa grow some 14 feet tall. Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/2/2010 4:47:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Yes, we are not only "GroveNuts," but proud citizens of the world Rutabaga capital. ;-) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Zaleski" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:46 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > It seems that the local headquarters for the International Rutabaga > Institute (located here in Forest Grove) ought to investigate this claim, > and if it's true, transport Mr. Robb and his giant rutabaga to the > institute > for further study. What say you Mike O? Should such a claim go > unchallenged? > But then again, you may be well ahead of me, and may have already obtained > this rare nugget for the Rutabaga National Archives. > > Now this may sound completely mad to some, except that (and this will be > new > to some on the list) Forest Grove "is," indisputably, the Rutabaga capital > of the world. > > jimz > > >> Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green >> cabbage >> and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. *Scott Robb grew a >> monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 pounds.* >> Scott >> also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. >> >> http://community.adn.com/node/143372 >> http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking-vegetables.html >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/ff8bee0c/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Jul 2 18:19:04 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:19:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live Forest Grove, Oregon In-Reply-To: Jeff Howden 's message of Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:23:14 -0700 Message-ID: <24234-4C2E9008-8735@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Jeff ... don't forget ...http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/0a9ac9d3/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Jul 2 18:24:57 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:24:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" 's message of Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: <24237-4C2E9169-4562@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Geri wrote .. Yes, we are not only "GroveNuts," but proud citizens of the world Rutabaga capital. ;-) Geri ========= Geri .. did ya ever get that Rutabaga Pie you were promised? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/6b885b9a/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Fri Jul 2 17:46:36 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:46:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC> <4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <78BBEEA3AA454856AFAF8C7BEAD1088B@EdDaviePC> Suggest you check this out! http://rutabagas.tripod.com/ Ed From: donkelly Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Jul 2 18:36:48 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:36:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:46:36 -0700 Message-ID: <24237-4C2E9430-4572@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Don ... something for you to look into... and I await your conclusions.... http://tinyurl.com/A-DKspecial ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/e038c117/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 18:57:41 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:57:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <78BBEEA3AA454856AFAF8C7BEAD1088B@EdDaviePC> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com><9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC><4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <78BBEEA3AA454856AFAF8C7BEAD1088B@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: Love the painting, too. :-) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:46 PM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > Suggest you check this out! > http://rutabagas.tripod.com/ > Ed > > > > From: donkelly > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:40 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 18:59:22 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <24237-4C2E9169-4562@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <24237-4C2E9169-4562@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4070229126F5430580DA6747069372B6@GeriPC> No, I did not . . . and now have even forgotten from whom/where I was supposed to get it! ;-D Geri From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 6:24 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. Geri wrote .. Yes, we are not only "GroveNuts," but proud citizens of the world Rutabaga capital. ;-) Geri ========= Geri .. did ya ever get that Rutabaga Pie you were promised? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 20:54:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:54:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. References: <24237-4C2E9430-4572@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C2EB3BC.000052.03940@DON-B2514E06367> URL doesn't load Hoss. Is part of the URL following A-DKspecial ? Thanks Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 7/2/2010 6:37:10 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100702/227e2a4b/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Jul 2 21:37:11 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 21:37:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:54:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=38068227 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100702/5acf79c5/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 2 23:43:06 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: <4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com> <9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC> <4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2A2F2B6E-88A8-4602-A4E1-18760F6D0471@teleport.com> Last year some of the Mexican gardeners tried growing a Mexican variety of corn in the community garden. It grew to incredible heights-- 14 or 15 feet-- but produced no ears. Apparently the change in sunlight from lower latitudes threw it out of whack-- some people told me it grew only six feet high and produced plenty of grain in Mexico. Here, it just got so tall that the BPA had us cut it down where it grew under the power lines. On Jul 2, 2010, at 5:40 PM, donkelly wrote: > First time I have heard that Jim. I never ate any. How is it > cooked? What is > a normal weight for a rutabaga? > > Does anyone around here grow corn over 20 feet tall? I know Iowa > grow some > 14 feet tall. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Geri Steele > Date: 7/2/2010 4:47:14 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > > Yes, we are not only "GroveNuts," but proud citizens of > the world Rutabaga capital. > > > ;-) Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jim Zaleski" > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:46 PM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > >> It seems that the local headquarters for the International Rutabaga >> Institute (located here in Forest Grove) ought to investigate this >> claim, >> and if it's true, transport Mr. Robb and his giant rutabaga to the >> institute >> for further study. What say you Mike O? Should such a claim go >> unchallenged? >> But then again, you may be well ahead of me, and may have already >> obtained >> this rare nugget for the Rutabaga National Archives. >> >> Now this may sound completely mad to some, except that (and this >> will be >> new >> to some on the list) Forest Grove "is," indisputably, the Rutabaga >> capital >> of the world. >> >> jimz >> >> >>> Steve Hubacek broke a 20-year world record with a 125.9 pound green >>> cabbage >>> and then three days later brought in a 127 pounder. *Scott Robb >>> grew a >>> monster rutabaga weighing in at a world record-breaking 82.9 >>> pounds.* >>> Scott >>> also holds the record for the largest Kale at 105.9 pounds. >>> >>> http://community.adn.com/node/143372 >>> http://www.whatscoolinalaska.com/2009/09/record-breaking- >>> vegetables.html >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 10:41:43 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... Message-ID: Grovenetters, As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in several different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily basis makes you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've discussed the congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as they enter the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty steady on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of traffic takes a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the gap is so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, often to the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned to taking them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving habits that really set my blood to boil. Here's one. You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You are in line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate that you will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many narrowly-missed accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you roll up to the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy 47 east (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you from both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious to the potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. You are poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs to happen is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the gap, to clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and at the last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B street. But the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the intersection in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there for you has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the driver had had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more appropriate time. With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind your teeth as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully passes you, a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice words to calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view mirror and see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are all grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the line refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck (even though you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of some drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think ahead. Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying attention. David mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. Hurray for that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of uncourteous and oblivious drivers. jimz From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 3 18:21:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:21:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Grovenetters, > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > several > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > basis makes > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > discussed the > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > they enter > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > steady > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > traffic takes > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > gap is > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > often to > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > to taking > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > habits that > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > are in > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > that you > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > narrowly-missed > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > roll up to > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > 47 east > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > from > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > to the > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > You are > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > to happen > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > gap, to > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > at the > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > street. But > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > intersection > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > for you > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > driver had > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > appropriate time. > > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > your teeth > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > passes you, > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > words to > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > mirror and > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > all > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > line > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > (even though > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > some > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > ahead. > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > attention. David > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > Hurray for > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > uncourteous and > oblivious drivers. > > jimz > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 18:58:54 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: Yep, we've all encountered these numbnuts. What about the guys who pull out in front of you to join the flow of traffic at the last second, requiring you to hit the brakes, then proceeds to go under the speed limit and jams up traffic. Or better still, what about the loons who pull out in front of you when there's no one behind you (again requiring a quick reaction on your part to avoid rear-ending them). And then goes slow!!! Now that realllly irks me. When you look back in your rear-view mirror and see no one, you just have to shake your head and mutter, WT#???... Without good defensive drivers, our highways and byways would be littered with dead and wounded. It's a jungle out there. jim On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > Grovenetters, > > > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > > several > > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > > basis makes > > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > > discussed the > > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > > they enter > > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > > steady > > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > > traffic takes > > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > > gap is > > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > > often to > > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > > to taking > > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > > habits that > > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > > > > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > > are in > > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > > that you > > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > > narrowly-missed > > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > > roll up to > > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > > 47 east > > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > > from > > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > > to the > > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > > You are > > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > > to happen > > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > > gap, to > > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > > at the > > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > > street. But > > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > > intersection > > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > > for you > > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > > driver had > > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > > appropriate time. > > > > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > > your teeth > > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > > passes you, > > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > > words to > > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > > mirror and > > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > > all > > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > > line > > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > > (even though > > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > > > > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > > some > > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > > ahead. > > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > > attention. David > > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > > Hurray for > > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > > uncourteous and > > oblivious drivers. > > > > jimz > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 19:03:52 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 19:03:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: So here's mine: You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? I believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction. The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who has started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the other lane who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a potentially fatal situation. When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to let them cross in front of you. When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the pedestrian can see the oncoming car. I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it easier for pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I cringe every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more common on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. Deb Bratland On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > Grovenetters, > > > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > > several > > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > > basis makes > > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > > discussed the > > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > > they enter > > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > > steady > > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > > traffic takes > > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > > gap is > > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > > often to > > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > > to taking > > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > > habits that > > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > > > > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > > are in > > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > > that you > > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > > narrowly-missed > > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > > roll up to > > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > > 47 east > > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > > from > > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > > to the > > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > > You are > > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > > to happen > > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > > gap, to > > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > > at the > > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > > street. But > > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > > intersection > > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > > for you > > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > > driver had > > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > > appropriate time. > > > > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > > your teeth > > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > > passes you, > > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > > words to > > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > > mirror and > > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > > all > > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > > line > > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > > (even though > > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > > > > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > > some > > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > > ahead. > > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > > attention. David > > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > > Hurray for > > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > > uncourteous and > > oblivious drivers. > > > > jimz > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 21:00:02 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 21:00:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: Boy, that's another I've experienced a time or two, and you are absolutely right, it's a potentially fatal situation. To make things worse, it's often small children crossing the road that prompts drivers to stop. And yes, they are trying to be courteous, but they unknowingly create a very dangerous situation. I nearly rear-ended a car last week who stopped for that very thing. It was at the library crossing, a group of small children had edged toward the road and I believe the driver just panicked and hit the brakes. Whoa, real close! You're right, cars coming up in the other lane can't see the pedestrians until they're right upon them. Because of this, I rarely stop to let anyone cross unless the lanes are clear. jim On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > So here's mine: > > You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and > there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left > lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? > I > believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be > deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction. > The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who has > started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the other lane > who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a > potentially fatal situation. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the > pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to let them > cross in front of you. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the > pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the > pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > > I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it easier for > pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I cringe > every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more common > on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > > driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > > behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > > and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > > immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > > the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > > stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > > from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > > dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > > > Grovenetters, > > > > > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > > > several > > > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > > > basis makes > > > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > > > discussed the > > > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > > > they enter > > > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > > > steady > > > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > > > traffic takes > > > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > > > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > > > gap is > > > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > > > often to > > > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > > > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > > > to taking > > > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > > > habits that > > > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > > > > > > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > > > are in > > > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > > > that you > > > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > > > narrowly-missed > > > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > > > roll up to > > > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > > > 47 east > > > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > > > from > > > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > > > to the > > > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > > > You are > > > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > > > to happen > > > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > > > gap, to > > > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > > > at the > > > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > > > street. But > > > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > > > intersection > > > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > > > for you > > > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > > > driver had > > > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > > > appropriate time. > > > > > > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > > > your teeth > > > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > > > passes you, > > > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > > > words to > > > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > > > mirror and > > > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > > > all > > > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > > > line > > > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > > > (even though > > > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > > > > > > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > > > some > > > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > > > ahead. > > > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > > > attention. David > > > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > > > Hurray for > > > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > > > uncourteous and > > > oblivious drivers. > > > > > > jimz > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at verizon.net Sat Jul 3 21:19:13 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 21:19:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's dangerous. Ed From: Debra Bratland Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... So here's mine: You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? I believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction. The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who has started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the other lane who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a potentially fatal situation. When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to let them cross in front of you. When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the pedestrian can see the oncoming car. I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it easier for pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I cringe every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more common on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. Deb Bratland On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > Grovenetters, > > > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > > several > > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > > basis makes > > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > > discussed the > > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > > they enter > > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > > steady > > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > > traffic takes > > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > > gap is > > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > > often to > > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > > to taking > > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > > habits that > > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > > > > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > > are in > > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > > that you > > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > > narrowly-missed > > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > > roll up to > > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > > 47 east > > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > > from > > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > > to the > > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > > You are > > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > > to happen > > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > > gap, to > > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > > at the > > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > > street. But > > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > > intersection > > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > > for you > > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > > driver had > > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > > appropriate time. > > > > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > > your teeth > > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > > passes you, > > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > > words to > > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > > mirror and > > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > > all > > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > > line > > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > > (even though > > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > > > > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > > some > > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > > ahead. > > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > > attention. David > > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > > Hurray for > > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > > uncourteous and > > oblivious drivers. > > > > jimz > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 21:56:27 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 21:56:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving going on in Western Wash. Co.! And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! Darn it. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... > I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's > dangerous. > Ed > > > > > From: Debra Bratland > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last > second... > > > So here's mine: > > You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and > there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left > lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? > I > believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be > deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > direction. > The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who has > started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the other > lane > who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a > potentially fatal situation. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the > pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to let > them > cross in front of you. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the > pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the > pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > > I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it easier for > pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I cringe > every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more > common > on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape >> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up >> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas >> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he >> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam >> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian >> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn >> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing >> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >> >> > Grovenetters, >> > >> > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in >> > several >> > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily >> > basis makes >> > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've >> > discussed the >> > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as >> > they enter >> > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty >> > steady >> > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of >> > traffic takes >> > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the >> > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the >> > gap is >> > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, >> > often to >> > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) >> > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned >> > to taking >> > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving >> > habits that >> > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. >> > >> > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You >> > are in >> > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate >> > that you >> > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many >> > narrowly-missed >> > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you >> > roll up to >> > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy >> > 47 east >> > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you >> > from >> > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious >> > to the >> > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. >> > You are >> > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs >> > to happen >> > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the >> > gap, to >> > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and >> > at the >> > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B >> > street. But >> > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the >> > intersection >> > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there >> > for you >> > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the >> > driver had >> > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more >> > appropriate time. >> > >> > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind >> > your teeth >> > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully >> > passes you, >> > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice >> > words to >> > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view >> > mirror and >> > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are >> > all >> > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the >> > line >> > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck >> > (even though >> > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. >> > >> > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of >> > some >> > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think >> > ahead. >> > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying >> > attention. David >> > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. >> > Hurray for >> > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of >> > uncourteous and >> > oblivious drivers. >> > >> > jimz >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 3 22:12:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:12:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: Yep. The ornately-marked pedestrian crossing in front of the library is a case in point. I have seen youngsters start confidently across when the traffic in the near lane stops for them... and somebody in the far lane, oblivious to the line of stopped cars, blasts merrily on through, close enough to trim the crosser's toenails. On Jul 3, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > So here's mine: > > You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- > way and > there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or > left > lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and > courteous? I > believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be > deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > direction. > The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who > has > started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the > other lane > who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a > potentially fatal situation. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the > pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to > let them > cross in front of you. > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the > pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the > pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > > I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it > easier for > pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I > cringe > every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting > more common > on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape >> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up >> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas >> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he >> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam >> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian >> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn >> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing >> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >> >>> Grovenetters, >>> >>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in >>> several >>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily >>> basis makes >>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've >>> discussed the >>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as >>> they enter >>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty >>> steady >>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of >>> traffic takes >>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the >>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the >>> gap is >>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, >>> often to >>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at >>> (above) >>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned >>> to taking >>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving >>> habits that >>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. >>> >>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You >>> are in >>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate >>> that you >>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many >>> narrowly-missed >>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you >>> roll up to >>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy >>> 47 east >>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you >>> from >>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious >>> to the >>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. >>> You are >>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs >>> to happen >>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the >>> gap, to >>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and >>> at the >>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B >>> street. But >>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the >>> intersection >>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there >>> for you >>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the >>> driver had >>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more >>> appropriate time. >>> >>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind >>> your teeth >>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully >>> passes you, >>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice >>> words to >>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view >>> mirror and >>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are >>> all >>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the >>> line >>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck >>> (even though >>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. >>> >>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of >>> some >>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think >>> ahead. >>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying >>> attention. David >>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. >>> Hurray for >>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of >>> uncourteous and >>> oblivious drivers. >>> >>> jimz >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 3 22:15:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:15:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> Message-ID: <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Yep! Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While I do appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that yahoo who habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing traffic. WW On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head > in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't > just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe > for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving > going on in Western Wash. Co.! > > And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual > dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went > through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to > witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things > actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it > would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least > diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. > And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! > Darn it. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the > lastsecond... > >> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's >> dangerous. >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> From: Debra Bratland >> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >> the last >> second... >> >> >> So here's mine: >> >> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- >> way and >> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or >> left >> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and >> courteous? >> I >> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can >> also be >> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same >> direction. >> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian >> who has >> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the >> other >> lane >> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a >> potentially fatal situation. >> >> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let >> the >> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to >> let >> them >> cross in front of you. >> >> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the >> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the >> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. >> >> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it >> easier for >> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I >> cringe >> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more >> common >> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape >>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up >>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas >>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he >>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam >>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian >>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn >>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing >>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. >>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> >>>> Grovenetters, >>>> >>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in >>>> several >>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily >>>> basis makes >>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've >>>> discussed the >>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as >>>> they enter >>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty >>>> steady >>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of >>>> traffic takes >>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the >>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the >>>> gap is >>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, >>>> often to >>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at >>>> (above) >>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned >>>> to taking >>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving >>>> habits that >>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. >>>> >>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You >>>> are in >>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate >>>> that you >>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many >>>> narrowly-missed >>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you >>>> roll up to >>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy >>>> 47 east >>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you >>>> from >>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious >>>> to the >>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. >>>> You are >>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs >>>> to happen >>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the >>>> gap, to >>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and >>>> at the >>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B >>>> street. But >>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the >>>> intersection >>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there >>>> for you >>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the >>>> driver had >>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more >>>> appropriate time. >>>> >>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind >>>> your teeth >>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully >>>> passes you, >>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice >>>> words to >>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view >>>> mirror and >>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are >>>> all >>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the >>>> line >>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck >>>> (even though >>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. >>>> >>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of >>>> some >>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think >>>> ahead. >>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying >>>> attention. David >>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. >>>> Hurray for >>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of >>>> uncourteous and >>>> oblivious drivers. >>>> >>>> jimz >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 22:13:57 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> Message-ID: This is not actually on topic, but I use gmail and it scans all posts for certain buzz words, then displays advertising on the right hand side of the page relating to the content (annoying and innocuous, but omnipresent). Most of the time I don't even notice them, occasionally I do. Here's what this topic brought up (boy, you sure can't get away from advertising in this media. I remember the early days of the internet when there was nary an ad in site. Ahhh, those were the days!!!) Sponsored Links First-Time Drivers Policy Are You A New Driver? 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Personal Injury Car Accident On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head > in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't > just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe > for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving > going on in Western Wash. Co.! > > And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual > dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went > through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to > witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things > actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it > would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least > diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. > And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! > Darn it. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the > lastsecond... > > > I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's > > dangerous. > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > From: Debra Bratland > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the > last > > second... > > > > > > So here's mine: > > > > You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and > > there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left > > lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? > > I > > believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can also be > > deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > > direction. > > The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian who has > > started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the other > > lane > > who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a > > potentially fatal situation. > > > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let the > > pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to let > > them > > cross in front of you. > > > > When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the > > pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the > > pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > > > > I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it easier > for > > pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I cringe > > every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more > > common > > on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > >> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > >> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > >> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > >> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > >> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > >> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > >> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > >> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > >> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> > >> > Grovenetters, > >> > > >> > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > >> > several > >> > different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > >> > basis makes > >> > you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > >> > discussed the > >> > congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > >> > they enter > >> > the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > >> > steady > >> > on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > >> > traffic takes > >> > a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > >> > accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > >> > gap is > >> > so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > >> > often to > >> > the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) > >> > cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > >> > to taking > >> > them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > >> > habits that > >> > really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > >> > > >> > You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > >> > are in > >> > line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > >> > that you > >> > will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > >> > narrowly-missed > >> > accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > >> > roll up to > >> > the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > >> > 47 east > >> > (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > >> > from > >> > both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > >> > to the > >> > potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > >> > You are > >> > poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > >> > to happen > >> > is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > >> > gap, to > >> > clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > >> > at the > >> > last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > >> > street. But > >> > the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > >> > intersection > >> > in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > >> > for you > >> > has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > >> > driver had > >> > had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > >> > appropriate time. > >> > > >> > With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > >> > your teeth > >> > as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > >> > passes you, > >> > a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > >> > words to > >> > calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > >> > mirror and > >> > see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > >> > all > >> > grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > >> > line > >> > refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > >> > (even though > >> > you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > >> > > >> > I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > >> > some > >> > drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > >> > ahead. > >> > Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > >> > attention. David > >> > mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > >> > Hurray for > >> > that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > >> > uncourteous and > >> > oblivious drivers. > >> > > >> > jimz > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 22:23:27 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:23:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Message-ID: More driver pet peeves: How about the drivers who floor it when they are obviously not going to make it through the yellow signal, and blast through at high speed just as other cars break into the intersection on "their" green signal. No wonder there are usually terrible crashes at lighted intersections. This reminds me of a line in Terminator 2 where Arnold (from the future) is driving a car at high speed, and his young passenger nervously asks him if he knows how to drive, he tells him yes, and proceeds to tell him he knows about traffic signals: "Red," he says, means stop, "Green," he says means go, and "Yellow," he says, means go real fast!!! I think that says it all. On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Yep! > Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While I do > appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- > out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that yahoo who > habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing > traffic. > WW > On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > > > Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head > > in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't > > just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe > > for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving > > going on in Western Wash. Co.! > > > > And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual > > dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went > > through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to > > witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things > > actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it > > would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least > > diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. > > And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! > > Darn it. > > > > > > Geri > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Ed Davie" > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the > > lastsecond... > > > >> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's > >> dangerous. > >> Ed > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Debra Bratland > >> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM > >> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >> the last > >> second... > >> > >> > >> So here's mine: > >> > >> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- > >> way and > >> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or > >> left > >> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and > >> courteous? > >> I > >> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can > >> also be > >> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > >> direction. > >> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian > >> who has > >> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the > >> other > >> lane > >> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This is a > >> potentially fatal situation. > >> > >> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let > >> the > >> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to > >> let > >> them > >> cross in front of you. > >> > >> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to let the > >> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian and the > >> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > >> > >> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it > >> easier for > >> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I > >> cringe > >> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting more > >> common > >> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > >> > >> Deb Bratland > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz > >> wrote: > >> > >>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > >>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > >>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on the gas > >>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > >>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > >>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > >>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > >>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > >>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > >>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >>> > >>>> Grovenetters, > >>>> > >>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > >>>> several > >>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > >>>> basis makes > >>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > >>>> discussed the > >>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > >>>> they enter > >>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty > >>>> steady > >>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > >>>> traffic takes > >>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the > >>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the > >>>> gap is > >>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > >>>> often to > >>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at > >>>> (above) > >>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > >>>> to taking > >>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > >>>> habits that > >>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > >>>> > >>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > >>>> are in > >>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > >>>> that you > >>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > >>>> narrowly-missed > >>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > >>>> roll up to > >>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy > >>>> 47 east > >>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you > >>>> from > >>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious > >>>> to the > >>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. > >>>> You are > >>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > >>>> to happen > >>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > >>>> gap, to > >>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and > >>>> at the > >>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > >>>> street. But > >>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > >>>> intersection > >>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there > >>>> for you > >>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > >>>> driver had > >>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > >>>> appropriate time. > >>>> > >>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > >>>> your teeth > >>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > >>>> passes you, > >>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice > >>>> words to > >>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > >>>> mirror and > >>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are > >>>> all > >>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the > >>>> line > >>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > >>>> (even though > >>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > >>>> > >>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of > >>>> some > >>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think > >>>> ahead. > >>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > >>>> attention. David > >>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > >>>> Hurray for > >>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > >>>> uncourteous and > >>>> oblivious drivers. > >>>> > >>>> jimz > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 3 22:44:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:44:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Message-ID: The psychology of drivers seems to have changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Not only do many now see a yellow light as a notice to speed up, but the cell phone has apparently made obliviousness to traffic a norm. The new law against cell-phone use while driving was well-intended, but seems almost universally ignored now.At the Thursday vigil, I can't even estimate the number of people who have waved at us with one hand, while gabbing on the cell phone with the other. I don't know what they were using to steer with. WW On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > More driver pet peeves: How about the drivers who floor it when > they are > obviously not going to make it through the yellow signal, and blast > through > at high speed just as other cars break into the intersection on > "their" > green signal. No wonder there are usually terrible crashes at lighted > intersections. This reminds me of a line in Terminator 2 where > Arnold (from > the future) is driving a car at high speed, and his young passenger > nervously asks him if he knows how to drive, he tells him yes, and > proceeds > to tell him he knows about traffic signals: "Red," he says, means > stop, > "Green," he says means go, and "Yellow," he says, means go real > fast!!! I > think that says it all. > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Yep! >> Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While I do >> appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- >> out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that yahoo who >> habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing >> traffic. >> WW >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >> >>> Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head >>> in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't >>> just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe >>> for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving >>> going on in Western Wash. Co.! >>> >>> And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual >>> dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went >>> through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to >>> witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things >>> actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it >>> would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least >>> diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. >>> And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! >>> Darn it. >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Ed Davie" >>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> the >>> lastsecond... >>> >>>> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's >>>> dangerous. >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Debra Bratland >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>> the last >>>> second... >>>> >>>> >>>> So here's mine: >>>> >>>> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- >>>> way and >>>> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or >>>> left >>>> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and >>>> courteous? >>>> I >>>> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can >>>> also be >>>> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same >>>> direction. >>>> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian >>>> who has >>>> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the >>>> other >>>> lane >>>> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This >>>> is a >>>> potentially fatal situation. >>>> >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let >>>> the >>>> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to >>>> let >>>> them >>>> cross in front of you. >>>> >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to >>>> let the >>>> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian >>>> and the >>>> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. >>>> >>>> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it >>>> easier for >>>> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I >>>> cringe >>>> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting >>>> more >>>> common >>>> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. >>>> >>>> Deb Bratland >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape >>>>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up >>>>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on >>>>> the gas >>>>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he >>>>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam >>>>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian >>>>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn >>>>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing >>>>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. >>>>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Grovenetters, >>>>>> >>>>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in >>>>>> several >>>>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily >>>>>> basis makes >>>>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've >>>>>> discussed the >>>>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as >>>>>> they enter >>>>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is >>>>>> pretty >>>>>> steady >>>>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of >>>>>> traffic takes >>>>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch >>>>>> the >>>>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. >>>>>> Oftentimes the >>>>>> gap is >>>>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, >>>>>> often to >>>>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at >>>>>> (above) >>>>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned >>>>>> to taking >>>>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving >>>>>> habits that >>>>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. >>>>>> >>>>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You >>>>>> are in >>>>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate >>>>>> that you >>>>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many >>>>>> narrowly-missed >>>>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you >>>>>> roll up to >>>>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to >>>>>> Hwy >>>>>> 47 east >>>>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming >>>>>> at you >>>>>> from >>>>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly >>>>>> oblivious >>>>>> to the >>>>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your >>>>>> wits. >>>>>> You are >>>>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs >>>>>> to happen >>>>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the >>>>>> gap, to >>>>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel >>>>>> now and >>>>>> at the >>>>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B >>>>>> street. But >>>>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the >>>>>> intersection >>>>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been >>>>>> there >>>>>> for you >>>>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the >>>>>> driver had >>>>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more >>>>>> appropriate time. >>>>>> >>>>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind >>>>>> your teeth >>>>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully >>>>>> passes you, >>>>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few >>>>>> choice >>>>>> words to >>>>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view >>>>>> mirror and >>>>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining >>>>>> they are >>>>>> all >>>>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of >>>>>> the >>>>>> line >>>>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck >>>>>> (even though >>>>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the >>>>>> behavior of >>>>>> some >>>>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to >>>>>> think >>>>>> ahead. >>>>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying >>>>>> attention. David >>>>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. >>>>>> Hurray for >>>>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of >>>>>> uncourteous and >>>>>> oblivious drivers. >>>>>> >>>>>> jimz >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 22:45:29 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:45:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Message-ID: Their knees, Walt, just like when my dad used to drive down the road pouring hot coffee into his mug! Deb Bratland On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > The psychology of drivers seems to have changed dramatically in the > past 10 years. Not only do many now see a yellow light as a notice to > speed up, but the cell phone has apparently made obliviousness to > traffic a norm. The new law against cell-phone use while driving was > well-intended, but seems almost universally ignored now.At the > Thursday vigil, I can't even estimate the number of people who have > waved at us with one hand, while gabbing on the cell phone with the > other. I don't know what they were using to steer with. > WW > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > More driver pet peeves: How about the drivers who floor it when > > they are > > obviously not going to make it through the yellow signal, and blast > > through > > at high speed just as other cars break into the intersection on > > "their" > > green signal. No wonder there are usually terrible crashes at lighted > > intersections. This reminds me of a line in Terminator 2 where > > Arnold (from > > the future) is driving a car at high speed, and his young passenger > > nervously asks him if he knows how to drive, he tells him yes, and > > proceeds > > to tell him he knows about traffic signals: "Red," he says, means > > stop, > > "Green," he says means go, and "Yellow," he says, means go real > > fast!!! I > > think that says it all. > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Walt Wentz > > wrote: > > > >> Yep! > >> Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While I do > >> appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- > >> out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that yahoo who > >> habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing > >> traffic. > >> WW > >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> > >>> Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head > >>> in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't > >>> just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe > >>> for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving > >>> going on in Western Wash. Co.! > >>> > >>> And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual > >>> dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went > >>> through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to > >>> witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things > >>> actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it > >>> would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least > >>> diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. > >>> And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! > >>> Darn it. > >>> > >>> > >>> Geri > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Ed Davie" > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM > >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>> the > >>> lastsecond... > >>> > >>>> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's > >>>> dangerous. > >>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Debra Bratland > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM > >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>>> the last > >>>> second... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So here's mine: > >>>> > >>>> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- > >>>> way and > >>>> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or > >>>> left > >>>> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and > >>>> courteous? > >>>> I > >>>> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can > >>>> also be > >>>> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > >>>> direction. > >>>> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian > >>>> who has > >>>> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the > >>>> other > >>>> lane > >>>> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This > >>>> is a > >>>> potentially fatal situation. > >>>> > >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let > >>>> the > >>>> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to > >>>> let > >>>> them > >>>> cross in front of you. > >>>> > >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to > >>>> let the > >>>> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian > >>>> and the > >>>> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > >>>> > >>>> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it > >>>> easier for > >>>> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I > >>>> cringe > >>>> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting > >>>> more > >>>> common > >>>> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > >>>> > >>>> Deb Bratland > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > >>>>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > >>>>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on > >>>>> the gas > >>>>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > >>>>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > >>>>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > >>>>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > >>>>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > >>>>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > >>>>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Grovenetters, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > >>>>>> several > >>>>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > >>>>>> basis makes > >>>>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > >>>>>> discussed the > >>>>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > >>>>>> they enter > >>>>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is > >>>>>> pretty > >>>>>> steady > >>>>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > >>>>>> traffic takes > >>>>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. > >>>>>> Oftentimes the > >>>>>> gap is > >>>>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > >>>>>> often to > >>>>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at > >>>>>> (above) > >>>>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > >>>>>> to taking > >>>>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > >>>>>> habits that > >>>>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > >>>>>> are in > >>>>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > >>>>>> that you > >>>>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > >>>>>> narrowly-missed > >>>>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > >>>>>> roll up to > >>>>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to > >>>>>> Hwy > >>>>>> 47 east > >>>>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming > >>>>>> at you > >>>>>> from > >>>>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly > >>>>>> oblivious > >>>>>> to the > >>>>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your > >>>>>> wits. > >>>>>> You are > >>>>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > >>>>>> to happen > >>>>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > >>>>>> gap, to > >>>>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel > >>>>>> now and > >>>>>> at the > >>>>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > >>>>>> street. But > >>>>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > >>>>>> intersection > >>>>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been > >>>>>> there > >>>>>> for you > >>>>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > >>>>>> driver had > >>>>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > >>>>>> appropriate time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > >>>>>> your teeth > >>>>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > >>>>>> passes you, > >>>>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few > >>>>>> choice > >>>>>> words to > >>>>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > >>>>>> mirror and > >>>>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining > >>>>>> they are > >>>>>> all > >>>>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> line > >>>>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > >>>>>> (even though > >>>>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the > >>>>>> behavior of > >>>>>> some > >>>>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to > >>>>>> think > >>>>>> ahead. > >>>>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > >>>>>> attention. David > >>>>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > >>>>>> Hurray for > >>>>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > >>>>>> uncourteous and > >>>>>> oblivious drivers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> jimz > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 3 23:07:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 23:07:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Message-ID: Did he ever miss? that would result in some wild driving... WW On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Their knees, Walt, just like when my dad used to drive down the > road pouring > hot coffee into his mug! > > Deb Bratland > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> The psychology of drivers seems to have changed dramatically in the >> past 10 years. Not only do many now see a yellow light as a notice to >> speed up, but the cell phone has apparently made obliviousness to >> traffic a norm. The new law against cell-phone use while driving was >> well-intended, but seems almost universally ignored now.At the >> Thursday vigil, I can't even estimate the number of people who have >> waved at us with one hand, while gabbing on the cell phone with the >> other. I don't know what they were using to steer with. >> WW >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >> >>> More driver pet peeves: How about the drivers who floor it when >>> they are >>> obviously not going to make it through the yellow signal, and blast >>> through >>> at high speed just as other cars break into the intersection on >>> "their" >>> green signal. No wonder there are usually terrible crashes at >>> lighted >>> intersections. This reminds me of a line in Terminator 2 where >>> Arnold (from >>> the future) is driving a car at high speed, and his young passenger >>> nervously asks him if he knows how to drive, he tells him yes, and >>> proceeds >>> to tell him he knows about traffic signals: "Red," he says, means >>> stop, >>> "Green," he says means go, and "Yellow," he says, means go real >>> fast!!! I >>> think that says it all. >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yep! >>>> Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While >>>> I do >>>> appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- >>>> out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that >>>> yahoo who >>>> habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing >>>> traffic. >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head >>>>> in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't >>>>> just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe >>>>> for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky >>>>> driving >>>>> going on in Western Wash. Co.! >>>>> >>>>> And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual >>>>> dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went >>>>> through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to >>>>> witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things >>>>> actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it >>>>> would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least >>>>> diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. >>>>> And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! >>>>> Darn it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Geri >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Ed Davie" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>> the >>>>> lastsecond... >>>>> >>>>>> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. >>>>>> It's >>>>>> dangerous. >>>>>> Ed >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Debra Bratland >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>>> the last >>>>>> second... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So here's mine: >>>>>> >>>>>> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- >>>>>> way and >>>>>> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane >>>>>> (or >>>>>> left >>>>>> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and >>>>>> courteous? >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can >>>>>> also be >>>>>> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same >>>>>> direction. >>>>>> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian >>>>>> who has >>>>>> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the >>>>>> other >>>>>> lane >>>>>> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This >>>>>> is a >>>>>> potentially fatal situation. >>>>>> >>>>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, >>>>>> let >>>>>> the >>>>>> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not >>>>>> stop to >>>>>> let >>>>>> them >>>>>> cross in front of you. >>>>>> >>>>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to >>>>>> let the >>>>>> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian >>>>>> and the >>>>>> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it >>>>>> easier for >>>>>> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I >>>>>> cringe >>>>>> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting >>>>>> more >>>>>> common >>>>>> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape >>>>>>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up >>>>>>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on >>>>>>> the gas >>>>>>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he >>>>>>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have >>>>>>> to jam >>>>>>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian >>>>>>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the >>>>>>> turn >>>>>>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? >>>>>>> Establishing >>>>>>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Grovenetters, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about >>>>>>>> FG in >>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a >>>>>>>> daily >>>>>>>> basis makes >>>>>>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've >>>>>>>> discussed the >>>>>>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as >>>>>>>> they enter >>>>>>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is >>>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>> steady >>>>>>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of >>>>>>>> traffic takes >>>>>>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. >>>>>>>> Oftentimes the >>>>>>>> gap is >>>>>>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the >>>>>>>> flow, >>>>>>>> often to >>>>>>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at >>>>>>>> (above) >>>>>>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often >>>>>>>> resigned >>>>>>>> to taking >>>>>>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving >>>>>>>> habits that >>>>>>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B >>>>>>>> street. You >>>>>>>> are in >>>>>>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate >>>>>>>> that you >>>>>>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many >>>>>>>> narrowly-missed >>>>>>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> roll up to >>>>>>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to >>>>>>>> Hwy >>>>>>>> 47 east >>>>>>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming >>>>>>>> at you >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly >>>>>>>> oblivious >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your >>>>>>>> wits. >>>>>>>> You are >>>>>>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that >>>>>>>> needs >>>>>>>> to happen >>>>>>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> gap, to >>>>>>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel >>>>>>>> now and >>>>>>>> at the >>>>>>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on >>>>>>>> to B >>>>>>>> street. But >>>>>>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the >>>>>>>> intersection >>>>>>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> for you >>>>>>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> driver had >>>>>>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more >>>>>>>> appropriate time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You >>>>>>>> grind >>>>>>>> your teeth >>>>>>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully >>>>>>>> passes you, >>>>>>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few >>>>>>>> choice >>>>>>>> words to >>>>>>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear >>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>> mirror and >>>>>>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining >>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck >>>>>>>> (even though >>>>>>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the >>>>>>>> behavior of >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> ahead. >>>>>>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying >>>>>>>> attention. David >>>>>>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this >>>>>>>> intersection. >>>>>>>> Hurray for >>>>>>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of >>>>>>>> uncourteous and >>>>>>>> oblivious drivers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jimz >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Jul 3 23:18:27 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 23:18:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: The crossing problem you discuss is caused in part by a change in the law. If the pedestrian steps off of the curb into the crosswalk, any cars in the two travel lanes nearest the pedestrian are required to stop. Please note, this is true when the pedestrian is still in the parking lane, not just the travel lane. As soon as the pedestrian enters the street, the second travel lane is required to stop. Even if they cannot see the pedestrian. Which makes for a serious situation. If you are driving and a car in the lane next to you slows to a stop at a cross walk, you must be prepared to stop at the crosswalk, until and unless you can see that the crosswalk is empty. The old rule was that you had to stop if a pedestrian was in your lane. Now you must stop if the pedestrian is in your lane, or the lane on either side of your lane ( a traffic lane includes any bicycle lane & parking areas), and you must do it as soon as the pedestrian is in the lane. I believe that "is in" is understood to be the same as "sets foot in". Some drivers believe that it means "standing on the sidewalk next to the street". Which really messes up the traffic. The whole thing is rather silly on the one-way portions of Pacific and 19th. Thanks to the timing of the signals, there is a 15-20 second break every 55 seconds. So, why should a pedestrian or driver louse up the traffic flow? BTW, I know this because I cross Pacific and 19th as a pedestrian during morning and evening rush hour traffic every working day. The pedestrians who needlessly stop traffic, instead of waiting the extra 15 second for a break, make me sigh. And the drivers who stop traffic, when I am standing five feet back from the curb, make me shake my head. David ORS 811.028 Failure to stop and remain stopped for pedestrian; penalty. (1) The driver of a vehicle commits the offense of failure to stop and remain stopped for a pedestrian if the driver does not stop and remain stopped for a pedestrian when the pedestrian is: (a) Proceeding in accordance with a traffic control device as provided under ORS 814.010 or crossing the roadway in a crosswalk, as defined in ORS 801.220; and (b) In any of the following locations: (A) In the lane in which the driver?s vehicle is traveling; (B) In a lane adjacent to the lane in which the driver?s vehicle is traveling; (C) In the lane into which the driver?s vehicle is turning; (D) In a lane adjacent to the lane into which the driver?s vehicle is turning, if the driver is making a turn at an intersection that does not have a traffic control device under which a pedestrian may proceed as provided under ORS 814.010; or (E) Less than six feet from the lane into which the driver?s vehicle is turning, if the driver is making a turn at an intersection that has a traffic control device under which a pedestrian may proceed as provided under ORS 814.010. (2) For the purpose of this section, a bicycle lane or the part of a roadway where a vehicle stops, stands or parks that is adjacent to a lane of travel is considered to be part of that adjacent lane of travel. (3) This section does not require a driver to stop and remain stopped for a pedestrian under any of the following circumstances: (a) Upon a roadway with a safety island, if the driver is proceeding along the half of the roadway on the far side of the safety island from the pedestrian; or (b) Where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead crossing has been provided at or near a crosswalk. (4) The offense described in this section, failure to stop and remain stopped for a pedestrian, is a Class B traffic violation. [2005 c.746 ?2] On Jul 3, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > So here's mine: > > You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one-way and there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or left lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and courteous? ... From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Jul 3 23:30:17 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 23:30:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C048C55-F5A5-4D71-A034-843573FD6630@verizon.net> Jim, That might be me. Next time I do it to you, wave hi. If the road is empty both ways your anger will be justified. If, on the other hand, that space in front of you was the first opportunity I had to cross traffic going the other way, then I am sorry, but I am peddling as fast as I can. Besides, I am getting off at the next intersection anyway. I am only using the highway because the local streets don't go through from this street to that street. If we address local connectivity we can keep people like me off of the highways. Regarding the driver who passes like they are going to a fire, and then turns off ... ? I think your anger is very justified. David On Jul 3, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Yep, we've all encountered these numbnuts. What about the guys who pull out in front of you to join the flow of traffic at the last second, requiring you to hit the brakes, then proceeds to go under the speed limit and jams up traffic. ... > jim From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 00:04:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 00:04:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> You raise valid points. Strange as it may seem, the problem at intersections that do not have signals, may be improved by the timing of lights at intersections that do have signals. Take the situation for the Merix traffic at Poplar Street who need to go South. They have to wait for the breaks in traffic that are created by the light at Pacific Avenue. Hopefully there is a break between the platoons of traffic that come south on Hwy 47 and the platoons of traffic that turns south from Pacific. When those south bound breaks come, the Poplar traffic also needs a similar break in the north bound traffic. When a light goes in at the Maple Street intersection it will form platoons of north bound traffic and gaps in traffic. Will the gaps from the Maple light come at the same time as the gaps from the Pacific light? Or will the Pacific gaps meet with the Maple traffic, and the Pacific traffic meet with the Maple traffic? One will make traffic work better, the other will make traffic impossible. The answer lies in the timing of the lights. Are they coordinated to provide usable gaps, or are they random? ODOT will install random lights by preference. Personally, I think that is a dumb policy. Lights at B Street and Maple Street should be timed together with Pacific Avenue to provide coordinated gaps at Elm Street and Poplar Street. ODOT claims that coordinating signals requires expensive technology. Bunk. In heavy traffic, cross traffic saturates the demand side and the optimum signal arrangement resolves to the same timing as a fixed signals. If the timing will carry the peak load, it will carry lower load with greater reserve. I believe that the highway should be timed for good traffic flow at all Highway 47 intersections. If it is done with fixed cycle signals it is less expensive than demand metered (random) signals because you don't need it install ground loop detectors. And the coordination can be done with fixed timing as well, so why not plan for heavy traffic and use a fixed signal system to save money and improve traffic flow? David On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Grovenetters, > > As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in several different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily basis makes you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've discussed the congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as they enter the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty steady on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of traffic takes a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the gap is so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, often to the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned to taking them. ... From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 00:07:43 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 00:07:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <080712DD-DC4B-49EB-A404-6712EA19F59A@verizon.net> So, the original carries evidence of the transition from subject to citizen in the minds of the founding fathers? That is consistent with the transition from Natural Born Subject to Natural Born Citizen. David On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=38068227 > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 4 06:23:06 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:23:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> References: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9AE18805-627A-43E5-B60E-4D00F26F0285@teleport.com> As to signal timing... I don't know what "expensive" technology ODOT is referring to, but the excuse sounds as though they just have a lot of old random signals in stock that they want to use up. With modern technology, it should seem possible to have signal switches operating in tandem rather cheaply by EM pulses, or by a simple wire hookup through the ubiquitous telephone cables. Since one strand of cable can carry many digitized phone calls at once without interference, one simple off/on "beep" shouldn't add greatly to the load. On Jul 4, 2010, at 12:04 AM, David Morelli wrote: > You raise valid points. > > Strange as it may seem, the problem at intersections that do not > have signals, may be improved by the timing of lights at > intersections that do have signals. > > Take the situation for the Merix traffic at Poplar Street who need > to go South. They have to wait for the breaks in traffic that are > created by the light at Pacific Avenue. Hopefully there is a break > between the platoons of traffic that come south on Hwy 47 and the > platoons of traffic that turns south from Pacific. When those > south bound breaks come, the Poplar traffic also needs a similar > break in the north bound traffic. > > When a light goes in at the Maple Street intersection it will form > platoons of north bound traffic and gaps in traffic. Will the gaps > from the Maple light come at the same time as the gaps from the > Pacific light? Or will the Pacific gaps meet with the Maple > traffic, and the Pacific traffic meet with the Maple traffic? One > will make traffic work better, the other will make traffic impossible. > > The answer lies in the timing of the lights. Are they coordinated > to provide usable gaps, or are they random? ODOT will install > random lights by preference. Personally, I think that is a dumb > policy. Lights at B Street and Maple Street should be timed > together with Pacific Avenue to provide coordinated gaps at Elm > Street and Poplar Street. > > ODOT claims that coordinating signals requires expensive > technology. Bunk. In heavy traffic, cross traffic saturates the > demand side and the optimum signal arrangement resolves to the same > timing as a fixed signals. If the timing will carry the peak load, > it will carry lower load with greater reserve. > > I believe that the highway should be timed for good traffic flow at > all Highway 47 intersections. If it is done with fixed cycle > signals it is less expensive than demand metered (random) signals > because you don't need it install ground loop detectors. And the > coordination can be done with fixed timing as well, so why not plan > for heavy traffic and use a fixed signal system to save money and > improve traffic flow? > > David > > > > > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Grovenetters, >> >> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in >> several different threads, being faced with the same problems on a >> daily basis makes you more alert to what's actually happening out >> there. We've discussed the congested and dangerous intersections >> of B and Maple streets as they enter the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any >> particular morning the traffic is pretty steady on the bypass in >> both directions. Getting out into the flow of traffic takes a bit >> of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the >> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes >> the gap is so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into >> the flow, often to the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists >> already traveling at (above) cruising speed. I hate these >> intersections, but am often resigned to taking them. ... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 4 08:20:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 08:20:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] DK special References: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <080712DD-DC4B-49EB-A404-6712EA19F59A@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C30A6D3.000001.00876@DON-B2514E06367> The report did not mention "Natural Born" so what is the revisionist theory? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 07/04/10 00:08:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] DK special So, the original carries evidence of the transition from subject to citizen in the minds of the founding fathers? That is consistent with the transition from Natural Born Subject to Natural Born Citizen. David On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=38068227 > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100704/fcc77fdc/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 4 09:07:47 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 09:07:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: <4C30A6D3.000001.00876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <080712DD-DC4B-49EB-A404-6712EA19F59A@verizon.net> <4C30A6D3.000001.00876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <14111C9B-675D-4C55-8F2E-DF664AD4FAE7@teleport.com> The fledgeling USA was still a thinly-populated nation of immigrants, with more arriving all the time. I'd wager a very large percentage of the population who lived during the Revolution were not "natural born." Except for the Indians, of course, and they didn't count as people in the minds of many of our illustrious forefathers. On Jul 4, 2010, at 8:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > > The report did not mention "Natural Born" so what is the > revisionist theory? > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: David Morelli > Date: 07/04/10 00:08:48 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] DK special > > So, the original carries evidence of the transition from subject to > citizen > in the minds of the founding fathers? > > That is consistent with the transition from Natural Born Subject to > Natural > Born Citizen. > > David > > On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=38068227 >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 09:33:44 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:33:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. In-Reply-To: References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com><9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC><4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <78BBEEA3AA454856AFAF8C7BEAD1088B@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <29864FD785F14C9FAFE4EF1029F902EF@JeffVAIO> As a member of the FG community, I thought I should at least know what a rutabaga looks like and noticed the description from the link provided. But now I'm confused. Is it a turnip or a rutabaga. The description says the turnip has a purplish top (like a bruise) and a rutabaga has a yellowish-orange skin. Is the picture a rutabaga or a turnip? -marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Geri Steele" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 6:57 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > > Love the painting, too. :-) > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:46 PM > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests > list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > >> Suggest you check this out! >> http://rutabagas.tripod.com/ >> Ed >> >> >> >> From: donkelly >> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:40 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 10:24:40 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 10:24:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] rutabaga or turnip? In-Reply-To: <29864FD785F14C9FAFE4EF1029F902EF@JeffVAIO> References: <4C2E0E81.000005.03940@DON-B2514E06367><378C0488-F1FA-4F8B-B0D6-33E7F0EF2B06@teleport.com><196272917-1278090655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665159414-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3F31CEA1-9941-4625-955A-07799651B143@teleport.com><4C2E357E.000020.03940@DON-B2514E06367><019001cb1a24$677de5c0$3679b140$@com><9F9FB06681074D03820B158B980BBBF2@GeriPC><4C2E8707.000049.03940@DON-B2514E06367> <78BBEEA3AA454856AFAF8C7BEAD1088B@EdDaviePC> <29864FD785F14C9FAFE4EF1029F902EF@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <1FC4D885-5C0F-49EE-BE52-6502EA7D297F@verizon.net> Wikipedia has a good description. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutabaga But remember the great Obie Macaroon would be very insulted if you ever called a rutabaga a turnip in these parts. ; ) We don't want to upset Obie. He is gentle and kind and wise until provoked beyond reason by any doubts about the superiority of rutabagas. Katie On Jul 4, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > As a member of the FG community, I thought I should at least know > what a > rutabaga looks like and noticed the description from the link > provided. But > now I'm confused. Is it a turnip or a rutabaga. The description > says the > turnip has a purplish top (like a bruise) and a rutabaga has a > yellowish-orange skin. > > Is the picture a rutabaga or a turnip? > > -marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Geri Steele" > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 6:57 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. > >> >> Love the painting, too. :-) >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Ed Davie" >> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:46 PM >> To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests >> list" >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. >> >>> Suggest you check this out! >>> http://rutabagas.tripod.com/ >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> From: donkelly >>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 5:40 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you live in Valdez, Alaska. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 10:28:38 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 10:28:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] google ads, was: Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> Message-ID: <98627AAF-1CF9-4870-B5CE-4F6C6FD5C358@verizon.net> What ads do you get with rutabagas? Ha ha ha ha ha Katie On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > This is not actually on topic, but I use gmail and it scans all > posts for > certain buzz words, then displays advertising on the right hand > side of the > page relating to the content (annoying and innocuous, but > omnipresent). Most > of the time I don't even notice them, occasionally I do. Here's > what this > topic brought up (boy, you sure can't get away from advertising in > this > media. I remember the early days of the internet when there was > nary an ad > in site. Ahhh, those were the days!!!) > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 11:00:36 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:00:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:21:53 -0700 Message-ID: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Mine is when of those alpha-ape driver as Walt calls them who storms up behind flashing their lights, and honking the horn, because I am only driving 60 in a 55 mph two lane area. I just wave and slow down more. The DMV says that you must pull over only when there is more than five cars behind you at one time. You can imagine the kinds of facial and hand jesters I've seen. Of course I don't think my vanity license plate has anything to do with it do you? http://rats2u.com/view.shtml?vanity1.gif -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/3047bd96/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 11:04:27 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 11:04:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <9AE18805-627A-43E5-B60E-4D00F26F0285@teleport.com> References: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> <9AE18805-627A-43E5-B60E-4D00F26F0285@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8236AFEB-A99F-4C8F-88F3-16090F9E8407@verizon.net> The expense is in the processors in the signal and in some central processor that tries to evaluate and process the cycle control signals. My point is that the expense and the central control system is unnecessary. Every vehicle on the road has an on board control system. If the driver is married, it may have two. Establishing a fixed timing system, and communicating to the drivers a message like "Signals Timed for Speed Limit" "SPEED 35", should be sufficient. ODOT wants the control. They want to be able to change the timing of the signals throughout the day, and change it from minute to minute. The problem is, a timing system that changes from minute to minute does not allow the driver to anticipate signal timing. So, the driver sees a random system and drives in a random fashion. The platoons do not form and the gaps are not predictable for the cross traffic and pedestrians. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > As to signal timing... > I don't know what "expensive" technology ODOT is referring to, but the excuse sounds as though they just have a lot of old random signals in stock that they want to use up. With modern technology, it should seem possible to have signal switches operating in tandem rather cheaply by EM pulses, or by a simple wire hookup through the ubiquitous telephone cables. Since one strand of cable can carry many digitized phone calls at once without interference, one simple off/on "beep" shouldn't add greatly to the load. ... From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 11:07:16 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:07:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] rutabaga or turnip? In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Sun, 04 Jul 2010 10:24:40 -0700 Message-ID: <7518-4C30CDD4-1862@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> yep ... I don't think you want rutabaga pie from Obie Wan do you, so I suggest ya don't make you his pet peeeve....... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/1087a2e5/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 11:15:36 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 11:15:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: <4C30A6D3.000001.00876@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15959-4C2EBE77-6675@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <080712DD-DC4B-49EB-A404-6712EA19F59A@verizon.net> <4C30A6D3.000001.00876@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <42528FD4-A10C-4025-BC51-8C9BC419D2F7@verizon.net> The report mentioned the change in the Declaration of Independence from subject to citizen. In Massachusetts, between July 4, 17776 and the writing of the Constitution, a number of laws were passed that regulated the admission of foreign born people to full status in the state. At the start the laws gave them the full rights of "Natural Born Subjects", which was a term of British Law. By the end, the law gave them the full rights of "Natural Born Citizens", which was a uniquely American term. The transition was spread over the time period, and it was not uniform. Massachusetts appears to be the first state to use the phase "Natural Born Citizen" in their laws, and they used it before it appeared in the Constitution. A Massachusetts legislator was one of the three people on the committee who wrote that phrase into the Constitution, so it would appear to have come from that history. I doubt that the legislative texts were ever revised, so I don't know how the information could be "revisionist". David On Jul 4, 2010, at 8:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > The report did not mention "Natural Born" so what is the revisionist theory? > > > Don From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 11:20:32 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:20:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] MSN Search Result for - rutabaga and turnip Message-ID: <7522-4C30D0F0-492@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I read all of this url, however, I still don't nothin' .... http://tinyurl.com/23l6nra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/e4f3df74/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://search.msntv.msn.com/search/Search.aspx?FORM=WEBTV&cfg=MSTVXML&v=1&x=26&y=14&c=US&q=rutabaga%20a%20turnip%0D%0A From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 11:23:47 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:23:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Sun, 04 Jul 2010 11:15:36 -0700 Message-ID: <7523-4C30D1B3-275@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Watch it David... you don't want to start another pet peeve thread ... {At the start the laws gave them the full rights of "Natural Born Subjects", which was a term of British Law. By the end, the law gave them the full rights of "Natural Born Citizens", which was a uniquely American term. The transition was spread over the time period, and it was not uniform.} -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/140ede2d/attachment.html From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 11:24:20 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <93D4B3CA-CBA5-469E-AAB8-C0377D8B2A4C@teleport.com> <3FACF1CDF01340FFA49085D880156343@EdDaviePC> <4E34A768562C4869BF56A5FC72114254@GeriPC> <011026A7-2A02-462D-842A-3CCFC2B095F0@teleport.com> Message-ID: <271427.65623.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I believe the new laws are that you have to stop when the light turns yellow, it use to mean you had to slow down and prepare to stop. On the other hand, you do not have to stop when a bus flashes yellow, only when the red lights are flashing. Vickie ________________________________ From: Debra Bratland To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 10:45:29 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... Their knees, Walt, just like when my dad used to drive down the road pouring hot coffee into his mug! Deb Bratland On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > The psychology of drivers seems to have changed dramatically in the > past 10 years. Not only do many now see a yellow light as a notice to > speed up, but the cell phone has apparently made obliviousness to > traffic a norm. The new law against cell-phone use while driving was > well-intended, but seems almost universally ignored now.At the > Thursday vigil, I can't even estimate the number of people who have > waved at us with one hand, while gabbing on the cell phone with the > other. I don't know what they were using to steer with. > WW > On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > > > More driver pet peeves: How about the drivers who floor it when > > they are > > obviously not going to make it through the yellow signal, and blast > > through > > at high speed just as other cars break into the intersection on > > "their" > > green signal. No wonder there are usually terrible crashes at lighted > > intersections. This reminds me of a line in Terminator 2 where > > Arnold (from > > the future) is driving a car at high speed, and his young passenger > > nervously asks him if he knows how to drive, he tells him yes, and > > proceeds > > to tell him he knows about traffic signals: "Red," he says, means > > stop, > > "Green," he says means go, and "Yellow," he says, means go real > > fast!!! I > > think that says it all. > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Walt Wentz > > wrote: > > > >> Yep! > >> Where's a traffic cop, when you'd really like to see one? While I do > >> appreciate being pulled over repeatedly to be warned about a burnt- > >> out tail light, I'd much prefer to see the officer tag that yahoo who > >> habitually blasts through a red light under the noses of crossing > >> traffic. > >> WW > >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> > >>> Jim, Walt, Debra, Ed, and anyone else nodding his/her head > >>> in agreement while reading this thread: am sorry to hear it isn't > >>> just my imagination (or paranoia?) which has led me to believe > >>> for at least a couple decades that there is a lot of whacky driving > >>> going on in Western Wash. Co.! > >>> > >>> And it sure looks like these 'pet peeves' are about actual > >>> dangers... which should, yes, make us peeved! I once went > >>> through a period of maybe 10 years of almost praying to > >>> witness any one of the drivers who do these idiotic things > >>> actually get caught and stopped for the idiocy... Oh, how it > >>> would've given me hope that this kind of driving would at least > >>> diminish because someone besides other drivers were noticing. > >>> And that's what I got: to witness to *one* -- in about 10 years! > >>> Darn it. > >>> > >>> > >>> Geri > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Ed Davie" > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:19 PM > >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>> the > >>> lastsecond... > >>> > >>>> I believe it's now the law! Although I totally agree with you. It's > >>>> dangerous. > >>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Debra Bratland > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:03 PM > >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>>> the last > >>>> second... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So here's mine: > >>>> > >>>> You're driving West on Pacific Avenue (where it's a two-lane one- > >>>> way and > >>>> there is not a pedestrian light) and someone in the right lane (or > >>>> left > >>>> lane) stops to let a pedestrian cross Pacific. Is it kind and > >>>> courteous? > >>>> I > >>>> believe that's the intent of the driver who stops. But it can > >>>> also be > >>>> deadly, because Pacific has 2 lanes of traffic going in the same > >>>> direction. > >>>> The drivers in the other lane can not always see the pedestrian > >>>> who has > >>>> started to cross, and the pedestrian can not see the cars in the > >>>> other > >>>> lane > >>>> who aren't stopping because they don't see the pedestrian. This > >>>> is a > >>>> potentially fatal situation. > >>>> > >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic going in the same direction, let > >>>> the > >>>> pedestrians clear their own way across both lanes. Do not stop to > >>>> let > >>>> them > >>>> cross in front of you. > >>>> > >>>> When there are 2 lanes of traffic meeting, it's OK to stop to > >>>> let the > >>>> pedestrian across, as the oncoming car can see the pedestrian > >>>> and the > >>>> pedestrian can see the oncoming car. > >>>> > >>>> I believe in courtesy while driving, and I believe in making it > >>>> easier for > >>>> pedestrians to cross our streets. But it must be done safely. I > >>>> cringe > >>>> every time I see the above scenario, and it seems to be getting > >>>> more > >>>> common > >>>> on Pacific Ave in Forest Grove. > >>>> > >>>> Deb Bratland > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> As long as we're on pet traffic peeves... Mine is the alpha-ape > >>>>> driver who just HAS to pass you in heavy traffic-- he blares up > >>>>> behind you at speed-- imagining an emergency, you ease up on > >>>>> the gas > >>>>> and sidle over to let him get in front of you... and then, he > >>>>> immediately makes a right turn off the highway, so you have to jam > >>>>> the brakes to avoid rear-ending him! What in the name of simian > >>>>> stupidity kept him from just slowing down to easily make the turn > >>>>> from BEHIND you, instead of forcing his way in front? Establishing > >>>>> dominance in the pack, I suppose. Ook ook. > >>>>> On Jul 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Grovenetters, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in > >>>>>> several > >>>>>> different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily > >>>>>> basis makes > >>>>>> you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've > >>>>>> discussed the > >>>>>> congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as > >>>>>> they enter > >>>>>> the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is > >>>>>> pretty > >>>>>> steady > >>>>>> on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of > >>>>>> traffic takes > >>>>>> a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. > >>>>>> Oftentimes the > >>>>>> gap is > >>>>>> so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, > >>>>>> often to > >>>>>> the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at > >>>>>> (above) > >>>>>> cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned > >>>>>> to taking > >>>>>> them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving > >>>>>> habits that > >>>>>> really set my blood to boil. Here's one. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You > >>>>>> are in > >>>>>> line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate > >>>>>> that you > >>>>>> will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many > >>>>>> narrowly-missed > >>>>>> accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you > >>>>>> roll up to > >>>>>> the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to > >>>>>> Hwy > >>>>>> 47 east > >>>>>> (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming > >>>>>> at you > >>>>>> from > >>>>>> both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly > >>>>>> oblivious > >>>>>> to the > >>>>>> potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your > >>>>>> wits. > >>>>>> You are > >>>>>> poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs > >>>>>> to happen > >>>>>> is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the > >>>>>> gap, to > >>>>>> clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel > >>>>>> now and > >>>>>> at the > >>>>>> last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B > >>>>>> street. But > >>>>>> the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the > >>>>>> intersection > >>>>>> in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been > >>>>>> there > >>>>>> for you > >>>>>> has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the > >>>>>> driver had > >>>>>> had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more > >>>>>> appropriate time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind > >>>>>> your teeth > >>>>>> as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully > >>>>>> passes you, > >>>>>> a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few > >>>>>> choice > >>>>>> words to > >>>>>> calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view > >>>>>> mirror and > >>>>>> see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining > >>>>>> they are > >>>>>> all > >>>>>> grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> line > >>>>>> refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck > >>>>>> (even though > >>>>>> you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the > >>>>>> behavior of > >>>>>> some > >>>>>> drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to > >>>>>> think > >>>>>> ahead. > >>>>>> Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying > >>>>>> attention. David > >>>>>> mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. > >>>>>> Hurray for > >>>>>> that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of > >>>>>> uncourteous and > >>>>>> oblivious drivers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> jimz > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Jul 4 11:27:03 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 18:27:03 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: 's message of Sat,3 Jul 2010 18:21:53 -0700<7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Five cars is a ticket. Polite is letting anyone by. A few times last week, I made left turns from the left lane of a one way street without signaling. Both times a female driver was waiting at that corner and yelled about no signal. I ask, what was the harm? They had to wait for me to clear before they went. -----Original Message----- From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:00:36 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... Mine is when of those alpha-ape driver as Walt calls them who storms up behind flashing their lights, and honking the horn, because I am only driving 60 in a 55 mph two lane area. I just wave and slow down more. The DMV says that you must pull over only when there is more than five cars behind you at one time. You can imagine the kinds of facial and hand jesters I've seen. Of course I don't think my vanity license plate has anything to do with it do you? http://rats2u.com/view.shtml?vanity1.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 4 13:20:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 13:20:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <8236AFEB-A99F-4C8F-88F3-16090F9E8407@verizon.net> References: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> <9AE18805-627A-43E5-B60E-4D00F26F0285@teleport.com> <8236AFEB-A99F-4C8F-88F3-16090F9E8407@verizon.net> Message-ID: WW On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:04 AM, David Morelli wrote: > The expense is in the processors in the signal and in some central > processor that tries to evaluate and process the cycle control > signals. OK, David! I didn't know that there was a central control system. thought every local system had some kind of local automated control. > > My point is that the expense and the central control system is > unnecessary. > > Every vehicle on the road has an on board control system. If the > driver is married, it may have two. Eh-heh... or with the old mother-in-law comic routine, three... > > Establishing a fixed timing system, and communicating to the > drivers a message like "Signals Timed for Speed Limit" "SPEED 35", > should be sufficient. Absolutely. If you drive through this town at 26-30 MPH, you can hit every green. > > ODOT wants the control. They want to be able to change the timing > of the signals throughout the day, and change it from minute to > minute. > > The problem is, a timing system that changes from minute to minute > does not allow the driver to anticipate signal timing. So, the > driver sees a random system and drives in a random fashion. The > platoons do not form and the gaps are not predictable for the cross > traffic and pedestrians. Or to ODOT, apparently... Thanks for the clarification! WW > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> As to signal timing... >> I don't know what "expensive" technology ODOT is referring to, but >> the excuse sounds as though they just have a lot of old random >> signals in stock that they want to use up. With modern technology, >> it should seem possible to have signal switches operating in >> tandem rather cheaply by EM pulses, or by a simple wire hookup >> through the ubiquitous telephone cables. Since one strand of cable >> can carry many digitized phone calls at once without interference, >> one simple off/on "beep" shouldn't add greatly to the load. ... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Sun Jul 4 13:40:27 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 13:40:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A856@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Speaking of random timing, does this account for the maddening lack of a pattern for the light at the Scotch Church/Glencoe Road intersection...especially when headed east? Mike -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sent: July 04, 2010 1:18 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... WW On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:04 AM, David Morelli wrote: > The expense is in the processors in the signal and in some central > processor that tries to evaluate and process the cycle control > signals. OK, David! I didn't know that there was a central control system. thought every local system had some kind of local automated control. > > My point is that the expense and the central control system is > unnecessary. > > Every vehicle on the road has an on board control system. If the > driver is married, it may have two. Eh-heh... or with the old mother-in-law comic routine, three... > > Establishing a fixed timing system, and communicating to the > drivers a message like "Signals Timed for Speed Limit" "SPEED 35", > should be sufficient. Absolutely. If you drive through this town at 26-30 MPH, you can hit every green. > > ODOT wants the control. They want to be able to change the timing > of the signals throughout the day, and change it from minute to > minute. > > The problem is, a timing system that changes from minute to minute > does not allow the driver to anticipate signal timing. So, the > driver sees a random system and drives in a random fashion. The > platoons do not form and the gaps are not predictable for the cross > traffic and pedestrians. Or to ODOT, apparently... Thanks for the clarification! WW > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> As to signal timing... >> I don't know what "expensive" technology ODOT is referring to, but >> the excuse sounds as though they just have a lot of old random >> signals in stock that they want to use up. With modern technology, >> it should seem possible to have signal switches operating in >> tandem rather cheaply by EM pulses, or by a simple wire hookup >> through the ubiquitous telephone cables. Since one strand of cable >> can carry many digitized phone calls at once without interference, >> one simple off/on "beep" shouldn't add greatly to the load. ... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 16:54:07 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 16:54:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] DK special In-Reply-To: <7523-4C30D1B3-275@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <7523-4C30D1B3-275@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1A76B49F-0919-4F9B-8092-0A763F9AF63A@verizon.net> Okay. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Watch it David... you don't want to start another pet peeve thread ... > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 16:59:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 16:59:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A856@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A856@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <27463FF3-75D9-4CCA-B786-439976E1C73E@verizon.net> I have no idea about that one. And I see that as a big part of the problem with demand signals. Drivers cannot recognize a pattern, so they cannot adapt to the process to reduce wait times. Instead, they do the red-stop, green-go, yellow-go faster at every light. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Speaking of random timing, does this account for the maddening lack of a pattern for the light at the Scotch Church/Glencoe Road intersection...especially when headed east? > > Mike From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 17:06:29 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:06:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: 's message of Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:21:53 -0700<7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: No harm. But, it does violate the law. 811.400 Failure to use appropriate signal for turn, lane change, stop or exit from roundabout; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of failure to use an appropriate signal for a turn, lane change or stop or for an exit from a roundabout if the person does not make the appropriate signal under ORS 811.395 by use of signal lamps or hand signals and the person is operating a vehicle that is: (a) Turning, changing lanes, stopping or suddenly decelerating; or (b) Exiting from any position within a roundabout. Observe that it also requires a signal to "exit from a roundabout". Who knew? David On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Steve wrote: > Five cars is a ticket. Polite is letting anyone by. > A few times last week, I made left turns from the left lane of a one way street without signaling. Both times a female driver was waiting at that corner and yelled about no signal. > I ask, what was the harm? They had to wait for me to clear before they went. From debbratland at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 17:11:18 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:11:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting to enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter (after ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're not signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because I could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. Deb On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:06 PM, David Morelli wrote: > No harm. But, it does violate the law. > > 811.400 Failure to use appropriate signal for turn, lane change, stop > or exit from roundabout; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of > failure to use an appropriate signal for a turn, lane change or stop or for > an exit from a roundabout if the person does not make the appropriate signal > under ORS 811.395 by use of signal lamps or hand signals and the person is > operating a vehicle that is: > (a) Turning, changing lanes, stopping or suddenly decelerating; or > (b) Exiting from any position within a roundabout. > > Observe that it also requires a signal to "exit from a roundabout". > > Who knew? > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Steve wrote: > > > Five cars is a ticket. Polite is letting anyone by. > > A few times last week, I made left turns from the left lane of a one way > street without signaling. Both times a female driver was waiting at that > corner and yelled about no signal. > > I ask, what was the harm? They had to wait for me to clear before they > went. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 17:21:44 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:21:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: References: <801418D0-6591-4054-890A-E3D564475138@verizon.net> <9AE18805-627A-43E5-B60E-4D00F26F0285@teleport.com> <8236AFEB-A99F-4C8F-88F3-16090F9E8407@verizon.net> Message-ID: Yes, every single signal has a local controller. Really old ones had an electric motor and contacts, the new ones are solid state. The controllers could talk to each other with local wires or RF. But, it appears that ODOT wants the ability to modify the cycle from a central control location. Of course, to have central control you need to have some method to inform the central facility about local conditions using a sensors or cameras, communicating with the control center or something. That adds installation and maintenance costs. If they have a cycle that is based upon the clock, you don't have central control. But, you don't need wires or the cost of the central control system. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > WW > On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:04 AM, David Morelli wrote: > >> The expense is in the processors in the signal and in some central >> processor that tries to evaluate and process the cycle control >> signals. > > OK, David! I didn't know that there was a central control system. > thought every local system had some kind of local automated control. From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 17:27:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:27:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break the law? I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection was a valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it is midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting to enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter (after ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're not signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because I could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. > > Deb From debbratland at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 17:44:09 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:44:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if there are cameras. My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of the night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I lock the door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to turn around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for me that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do when it matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because my brain is too cluttered as it is. Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow information that you're providing. Thanks. Deb Bratland On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli wrote: > If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? > > If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break the > law? > > I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection was a > valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it is > midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting to > enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter (after > ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're not > signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because I > could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. > > > > Deb > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 17:54:29 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:54:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: Debra Bratland 's message of Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:44:09 -0700 Message-ID: <28542-4C312D45-896@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> ignorance is no exception of the law. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/a42f03fe/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 19:56:22 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 19:56:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: <28542-4C312D45-896@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <28542-4C312D45-896@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <67646FF9-2CCA-4B68-B237-C93A16654EE2@verizon.net> Darn! I would use that as an excuse under all sorts of violations. "I didn't know that I was speeding." "Ignorance is no exception of the law." "Tell me officer, can I just get a warning?" "No." "Why don't you give me a warning?" "We did." "What?" "We have warnings all along this road. They say SPEED 35." On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > ignorance is no exception of the law. > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 4 20:05:45 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 20:05:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <6CD79FDE-AEF5-4216-AB81-6744DB90BBC1@verizon.net> I recall one left turn from a right curb parking space, across two travel lanes on Pacific at Birch. There was no traffic. A F.G. police car three blocks away came to speak to me about it. While you may make a U-turn in an intersection, you cannot do a right curb to left turn in an intersection. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if there are cameras. From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Jul 4 20:33:00 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] quotas Message-ID: <28541-4C31526C-1499@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I remember one time when asked, "What is the matter officer, haven't you hade your quota toady yet? Our pat answer to these questions are .. {"No, we can write as many as we went"} Another time while issuing a ticket, the citizen/subject .. WEll I know Officer Domenghini, and he is not going to like this one bit. As I explained that signing this, is not an admission of guilt .. it only means that you promise to appear at the appointed court date and time. And when you sign name here, please read my name, and be sure to tell officer domenghini that I said hello. And ya know what? I never heard a thing again, not even on the court date which I had to attend. Now on the other-hand ... had I not been there, and they were, then the case would of be dismissed, and I would been in trouble, for the accused has the right to face his accuser in court. Thank goodness I never missed court date. However there have been a few I wish I had! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100704/4163e475/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 4 20:42:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:42:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... References: Message-ID: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> Acknowledging general traffic problems, but specifically addressing stopping at crosswalks when pedestrians want to cross, but there is no stop light or crossing light. What about a law that when a car in either land stops at a crosswalk, the cars in the second lane also stop? How to get a $2,000 fine in Anchorage, Alaska for violating the pedestrian right of way crosswalk law. The car in the right lane stopped for a mother duck and seven babies were crossing at the crosswalk. The first car in the right hand lane was a State Trooper. I was second and a couple more cars behind me stopped. Lake Otis Parkway is signed that ducks and geese have the right of way when crossing the road. In the inside lane a man ignored our stopping at the crosswalk, and blasted through, missing the mother duck, but running over 2 of the 7 baby ducks and scattering the rest by the backwash. The trooper nailed him and by the time the judge read all of the violations, he fined the guy $2,000. Do anyone think he will blast through a crosswalk like that again? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jim Zaleski Date: 7/3/2010 10:42:55 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond .. Grovenetters, As we've been discussing the traffic situation in and about FG in several different threads, being faced with the same problems on a daily basis makes you more alert to what's actually happening out there. We've discussed the congested and dangerous intersections of B and Maple streets as they enter the Hwy. 47 bypass. On any particular morning the traffic is pretty steady on the bypass in both directions. Getting out into the flow of traffic takes a bit of daring, you see an opening, take a deep breath, punch the accelerator and pray you've made the right decision. Oftentimes the gap is so small that you literally must squeeze yourself into the flow, often to the dis-alarming rancor of the motorists already traveling at (above) cruising speed. I hate these intersections, but am often resigned to taking them. To make a bad situation worse, there are commuter driving habits that really set my blood to boil. Here's one. You're waiting for your turn to "shoot the gap," on B street. You are in line and watch those in front of you make the same leap of fate that you will be forced to take when it's your turn. You observe many narrowly-missed accidents and your anxiety approaches panic-attack levels as you roll up to the line. You need to make a left hand turn from "B" street to Hwy 47 east (the most dangerous traverse of them all). Traffic is coming at you from both directions at 55 mph + speeds, the drivers seemingly oblivious to the potential danger. You see a gap coming up and you gather your wits. You are poised to slam the hammer down on the accelerator, all that needs to happen is for a single remaining car (heading east) between you and the gap, to clear. You have a white-knuckled grip on the steering wheel now and at the last second, the driver decides to make a left hand turn on to B street. But the signal comes too late for you to rocket yourself across the intersection in front of them. The result is the gap that should have been there for you has closed. A situation that could have well been avoided if the driver had had the courtesy of putting his turn signal on at a more appropriate time. With no other choice, you find yourself stuck in place. You grind your teeth as the driver who caused you to miss your opportunity gleefully passes you, a look of contentment on their face. Grrrr... You use a few choice words to calm yourself and to clear your head. You look in your rear view mirror and see that a line has formed behind you, you begin imagining they are all grinding their teeth because the "stupid motorist" in front of the line refuses to move. By the time you do break free, you're a wreck (even though you've avoided one). This is no way to start your day. I have more pet peeves about this intersection, but the behavior of some drivers is the same at every intersection. They don't seem to think ahead. Who knows what they're doing in there, certainly not paying attention. David mentioned that a light may be in the works for this intersection. Hurray for that. Now what we need is a light to go on in the heads of uncourteous and oblivious drivers. jimz _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100704/735ef410/attachment.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 08:17:18 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:17:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: 's message of Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:21:53-0700<7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EC9DB2DDAC847899A412DE66482D9DA@GeriPC> And for some reason Steve thought it important to mention the drivers he peeved were "female," hahahahah! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:06 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond...> No harm. But, it does violate the law. > > 811.400 Failure to use appropriate signal for turn, lane change, stop > or exit from roundabout; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of > failure to use an appropriate signal for a turn, lane change or stop or > for an exit from a roundabout if the person does not make the appropriate > signal under ORS 811.395 by use of signal lamps or hand signals and the > person is operating a vehicle that is: > (a) Turning, changing lanes, stopping or suddenly decelerating; or > (b) Exiting from any position within a roundabout. > > Observe that it also requires a signal to "exit from a roundabout". > > Who knew? > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Steve wrote: > >> Five cars is a ticket. Polite is letting anyone by. >> A few times last week, I made left turns from the left lane of a one way >> street without signaling. Both times a female driver was waiting at that >> corner and yelled about no signal. >> I ask, what was the harm? They had to wait for me to clear before they >> went. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 08:19:55 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:19:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) They are also good examples for the younger set .... Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if > there are cameras. > > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of the > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I lock > the > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to > turn > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for me > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do when > it > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because my > brain is too cluttered as it is. > > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow > information that you're providing. Thanks. > > Deb Bratland > > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli > wrote: > >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? >> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break >> the >> law? >> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection was >> a >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it >> is >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >> >> David >> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting >> > to >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >> (after >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're >> not >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because >> I >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >> > >> > Deb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 08:37:08 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:37:08 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntil thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <4EC9DB2DDAC847899A412DE66482D9DA@GeriPC> References: 's message of Sat, 3 Jul 201018:21:53-0700<7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4EC9DB2DDAC847899A412DE66482D9DA@GeriPC> Message-ID: <922667830-1278344238-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1957659334-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Well actually, I didn't verify. I shouldn't judge people by outward appearances. Maybe it was significant in that I make that turn often without signaling. These were the vocal complainers. As I turn, our drivers windows come quite close. That is how I could hear their comments. I did not take up their offers of intercourse. -----Original Message----- From: "Geri Steele" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:17:18 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... And for some reason Steve thought it important to mention the drivers he peeved were "female," hahahahah! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:06 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond...> No harm. But, it does violate the law. > > 811.400 Failure to use appropriate signal for turn, lane change, stop > or exit from roundabout; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of > failure to use an appropriate signal for a turn, lane change or stop or > for an exit from a roundabout if the person does not make the appropriate > signal under ORS 811.395 by use of signal lamps or hand signals and the > person is operating a vehicle that is: > (a) Turning, changing lanes, stopping or suddenly decelerating; or > (b) Exiting from any position within a roundabout. > > Observe that it also requires a signal to "exit from a roundabout". > > Who knew? > > David > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Steve wrote: > >> Five cars is a ticket. Polite is letting anyone by. >> A few times last week, I made left turns from the left lane of a one way >> street without signaling. Both times a female driver was waiting at that >> corner and yelled about no signal. >> I ask, what was the harm? They had to wait for me to clear before they >> went. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Jul 5 08:46:41 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:46:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" 's message of Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:19:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1332-4C31FE61-791@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> or you could always tell the kids to do as you say, not as I do! by the bye ... in case your wondering .. my web site will be gone at midnight to night. ~A~ This my story and I stickin' to it! ======= Original Message.... Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) They are also good examples for the younger set .... Geri ---------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the last second... Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if there are cameras. My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of the night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I lock the door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to turn around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for me that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do when it matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because my brain is too cluttered as it is. Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow information that you're providing. Thanks. Deb Bratland On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli wrote: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break the law? I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection was a valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it is midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. David On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting to enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter (after ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're not signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because I could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. Deb ????__________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Jul 5 08:53:23 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:53:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] RAT'Em Animated Cyber Electronic Greeting Cards Message-ID: <1332-4C31FFF3-794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> and I leave this one behind http://www.rats2u.com/card/card.html? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100705/f9efa9e1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.rats2u.com/card/card.html? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 08:58:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:58:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] RAT'Em Animated Cyber Electronic Greeting Cards In-Reply-To: <1332-4C31FFF3-794@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1311814924.91651.1278345497406.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Fun time Alan. Perhaps you can move your site to a free blog. The best don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Domenghini To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:53:23 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] RAT'Em Animated Cyber Electronic Greeting Cards and I leave this one behind http://www.rats2u.com/card/card.html? From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 11:09:34 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:09:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Website for Tri County Farms Message-ID: <11A39DD2-C151-4B91-B813-D0F4C10CF12C@verizon.net> For those of you who are new to the area or who are looking for u- pick information, here is the website for the Tri-County Farm information: http://www.tricountyfarm.org/ Lots of good info about where to go for local food, u-pick, etc. Katie PS I am not a farmer and not affiliated with this site other than I like to pick strawberries, blueberries, and peaches... From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 13:09:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:09:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Globe Magazine Message-ID: <4C323BE9.000018.02236@DON-B2514E06367> Is this the Boston Globe? Anyone? http://www.globemagazine.com/story/520 Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100705/5858783f/attachment.gif From jawelch at coho.net Mon Jul 5 15:24:28 2010 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:24:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> Message-ID: <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't really think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit I see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same thing as running a red light. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Steele Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) They are also good examples for the younger set .... Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if > there are cameras. > > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of the > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I lock > the > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to > turn > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for me > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do when > it > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because my > brain is too cluttered as it is. > > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow > information that you're providing. Thanks. > > Deb Bratland > > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli > wrote: > >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? >> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break >> the >> law? >> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection was >> a >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it >> is >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >> >> David >> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting >> > to >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >> (after >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're >> not >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit because >> I >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >> > >> > Deb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 15:44:34 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> Message-ID: <994189.16027.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Actually John, that's *legal* in Oregon (making a left hand turn onto a one way street against a red light).? The one real problem with that law is that drivers waiting to do that are looking right to see when traffic is clear enough for them to make their turn.? I've come down Cedar and had the light change to green only to have drivers cut right in front of me because they saw it clear enough to make their left hand turn against the red.? What they didn't see is the light change to green, thereby giving traffic coming down Cedar the right of way. The first time this happened I really had to hit my brakes.? Ever since then I'm acutely aware of this happening (and it has happened over a dozen times).? The bottom line is your focus when driving should be at least 95% on the road and what's going on around you.? If/when you see a car stopped in a lane next to you, then *you must stop*!? Blithely going through an intersection when a car is stopped next to you is inviting a squashed pedestrian.? Most drivers simply need to increase their focus on their driving. That being said I must say that the courtesy level in general of drivers in Oregon is higher than the Bay Area (where I'm originally from).? --- On Mon, 7/5/10, John Welch wrote: One bad habit I see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic.? Same thing as running a red light. John From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 17:07:28 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:07:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> Message-ID: Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red lights. I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the family in a few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. Deb On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: > I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't really > think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when > moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit I > see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and > Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red > light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same thing > as running a red light. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Geri Steele > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > second... > > Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) > > They are also good examples for the younger set .... > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > second... > > > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice your > > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless if > > there are cameras. > > > > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of > the > > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I lock > > the > > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to > > turn > > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for me > > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do when > > it > > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because my > > brain is too cluttered as it is. > > > > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow > > information that you're providing. Thanks. > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli > > wrote: > > > >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? > >> > >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break > >> the > >> law? > >> > >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection > was > > >> a > >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when it > >> is > >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. > >> > >> David > >> > >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> > >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people waiting > >> > to > >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter > >> (after > >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're > >> not > >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit > because > > >> I > >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. > >> > > >> > Deb > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 17:53:52 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:53:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> Message-ID: I remember well going through giving our four kids (when they were all teens) extra tips they should know, in addition to what they learned from the driver's manual and driver's ed: I pointed out every unsafe corner I could think of! There seemed to be so many just around where we lived. One had huge rhodies blocking sight to the left; another had fast traffic arriving on an out-of-view curve from the right.; and so on... And of course those were just the ones I had noticed, myself... and that was only in one town. Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies if there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... > Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. > > I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red lights. > I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" > reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really > *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the > family in a > few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. > > Deb > On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: > >> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >> really >> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit >> I >> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red >> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >> thing >> as running a red light. >> >> John >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Geri Steele >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast >> second... >> >> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >> >> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Debra Bratland" >> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast >> second... >> >> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >> > your >> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless >> > if >> > there are cameras. >> > >> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of >> the >> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >> > lock >> > the >> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to >> > turn >> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for >> > me >> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >> > when >> > it >> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because >> > my >> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >> > >> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >> > >> > Deb Bratland >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >> > wrote: >> > >> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >> >> sound? >> >> >> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break >> >> the >> >> law? >> >> >> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection >> was >> >> >> a >> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >> >> it >> >> is >> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >> >> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >> >> > waiting >> >> > to >> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >> >> (after >> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're >> >> not >> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >> because >> >> >> I >> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >> >> > >> >> > Deb >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jawelch at coho.net Mon Jul 5 18:07:03 2010 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 18:07:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <994189.16027.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <994189.16027.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cb1ca7$8bb54520$a31fcf60$@net> No it's not. I didn't make it clear - I'm talking about a car in the left lane pointing west on Pacific, stopping and then turning left on the red - same with the other two intersections I mentioned. You cannot turn against a light if you cross a lane moving counter to the lane you are turning into. Actually another thing I see from time to time is a car turning from Pacific left onto Main and continuing down the left lane to 19th unless/until they meet a car heading north. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Cooper Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 3:45 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... Actually John, that's *legal* in Oregon (making a left hand turn onto a one way street against a red light).? The one real problem with that law is that drivers waiting to do that are looking right to see when traffic is clear enough for them to make their turn.? I've come down Cedar and had the light change to green only to have drivers cut right in front of me because they saw it clear enough to make their left hand turn against the red.? What they didn't see is the light change to green, thereby giving traffic coming down Cedar the right of way. The first time this happened I really had to hit my brakes.? Ever since then I'm acutely aware of this happening (and it has happened over a dozen times).? The bottom line is your focus when driving should be at least 95% on the road and what's going on around you.? If/when you see a car stopped in a lane next to you, then *you must stop*!? Blithely going through an intersection when a car is stopped next to you is inviting a squashed pedestrian.? Most drivers simply need to increase their focus on their driving. That being said I must say that the courtesy level in general of drivers in Oregon is higher than the Bay Area (where I'm originally from).? --- On Mon, 7/5/10, John Welch wrote: One bad habit I see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic.? Same thing as running a red light. John _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 19:40:59 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:40:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Globe Magazine In-Reply-To: <4C323BE9.000018.02236@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C323BE9.000018.02236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: This is a test everyone. Don't respond. He's using pure deception and chicanery to start a ridiculous thread again (I believe the man is truly obsessed). Don't fall for it!!! We've been doing fine without this trash, wouldn't you agree? jimz On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 1:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > Is this the Boston Globe? Anyone? > > http://www.globemagazine.com/story/520 > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 20:07:31 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 20:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <000001cb1ca7$8bb54520$a31fcf60$@net> Message-ID: <879362.71328.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Oh, I've yet to see that one, but apparently it's more prevalent than I thought, given Geri's response as well!? Obviously turning left onto a *two-way street* against the light? is illegal.? Maybe the fact that you can turn *onto* a one way street (as previously mentioned) is what prompts some drivers to do the obverse.? Blame ODOT! As for Geri's comment that it's not legal to make a left turn onto a one way against the light if there is oncoming traffic waiting, therein lies the rub.? People take one look and don't see any oncoming cars and then look right for upwards of 30 seconds and then make their turn without looking forward again.? That's what I mean about people not thinking about their driving.? I glance left--right--forward and left-right again before I do any turn.? There might be a squirrel out there for crying out loud! --Jeff --- On Mon, 7/5/10, John Welch wrote: No it's not.? I didn't make it clear - I'm talking about a car in the left lane pointing west on Pacific, stopping and then turning left on the red - same with the other two intersections I mentioned.? You cannot turn against a light if you cross a lane moving counter to the lane you are turning into. Actually another thing I see from time to time is a car turning from Pacific left onto Main and continuing down the left lane to 19th unless/until they meet a car heading north. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Cooper Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 3:45 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... Actually John, that's *legal* in Oregon (making a left hand turn onto a one way street against a red light).? The one real problem with that law is that drivers waiting to do that are looking right to see when traffic is clear enough for them to make their turn.? I've come down Cedar and had the light change to green only to have drivers cut right in front of me because they saw it clear enough to make their left hand turn against the red.? What they didn't see is the light change to green, thereby giving traffic coming down Cedar the right of way. The first time this happened I really had to hit my brakes.? Ever since then I'm acutely aware of this happening (and it has happened over a dozen times).? The bottom line is your focus when driving should be at least 95% on the road and what's going on around you.? If/when you see a car stopped in a lane next to you, then *you must stop*!? Blithely going through an intersection when a car is stopped next to you is inviting a squashed pedestrian.? Most drivers simply need to increase their focus on their driving. That being said I must say that the courtesy level in general of drivers in Oregon is higher than the Bay Area (where I'm originally from).? --- On Mon, 7/5/10, John Welch wrote: One bad habit I see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic.? Same thing as running a red light. John From kb-ent at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 20:48:50 2010 From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 20:48:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Globe Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <4C323BE9.000018.02236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C32A7A2.1020905@comcast.net> We have been doing great... Enjoying the interesting topics... Jim Zaleski wrote: > This is a test everyone. Don't respond. He's using pure deception and > chicanery to start a ridiculous thread again (I believe the man is truly > obsessed). Don't fall for it!!! We've been doing fine without this trash, > wouldn't you agree? > > jimz > > On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 1:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > > >> Is this the Boston Globe? Anyone? >> >> http://www.globemagazine.com/story/520 >> >> Don >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2984 - Release Date: 07/05/10 11:36:00 > > From edavie at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 21:06:25 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:06:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> Message-ID: <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! (different lane) Ed Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies if there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... > Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. > > I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red lights. > I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" > reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really > *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the > family in a > few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. > > Deb > On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: > >> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >> really >> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit >> I >> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a red >> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >> thing >> as running a red light. >> >> John >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Geri Steele >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast >> second... >> >> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >> >> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Debra Bratland" >> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast >> second... >> >> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >> > your >> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless >> > if >> > there are cameras. >> > >> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of >> the >> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >> > lock >> > the >> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going to >> > turn >> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for >> > me >> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >> > when >> > it >> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because >> > my >> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >> > >> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >> > >> > Deb Bratland >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >> > wrote: >> > >> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >> >> sound? >> >> >> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still break >> >> the >> >> law? >> >> >> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection >> was >> >> >> a >> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >> >> it >> >> is >> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >> >> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >> >> > waiting >> >> > to >> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >> >> (after >> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If they're >> >> not >> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >> because >> >> >> I >> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >> >> > >> >> > Deb >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 21:43:03 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:43:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if there was traffic facing you. Is the manual on-line somewhere? But I must admit one day when I was making a "left on red" from Main St. onto Pacific heading west, that I started to go on the red, then the light suddenly turned green and the car facing me (heading south on Main St. gunned it! Definitely scared me. -marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... > > > > Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! > (different lane) > Ed > > Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies > if > there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > second... > >> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. >> >> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >> lights. >> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >> family in a >> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >> >> Deb >> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >> >>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>> really >>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit >>> I >>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>> red >>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>> thing >>> as running a red light. >>> >>> John >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>> >>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>> > your >>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless >>> > if >>> > there are cameras. >>> > >>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of >>> the >>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>> > lock >>> > the >>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going >>> > to >>> > turn >>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for >>> > me >>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>> > when >>> > it >>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because >>> > my >>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>> > >>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>> > >>> > Deb Bratland >>> > >>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>> >> sound? >>> >> >>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>> >> break >>> >> the >>> >> law? >>> >> >>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection >>> was >>> >>> >> a >>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >>> >> it >>> >> is >>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>> >> >>> >> David >>> >> >>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>> >> > waiting >>> >> > to >>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >>> >> (after >>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>> >> they're >>> >> not >>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>> because >>> >>> >> I >>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>> >> > >>> >> > Deb >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > GroveNet mailing list >>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 22:12:52 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:12:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2010, at 9:43 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if there was traffic facing you. Perhaps it is good practice to be extra careful for the reasons given, but the turn is legal. > Is the manual on-line somewhere? Yes, https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/811.360 811.360 When vehicle turn permitted at stop light (1)The driver of a vehicle, subject to this section, who is intending to turn at an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal or a steady red arrow signal may do any of the following without violating ORS 811.260(Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices) and811.265 (Failure to obey traffic control device): (a)Make a right turn into a two-way street. (b)Make a right or left turn into a one-way street in the direction of traffic upon the one-way street. (2)A person commits the offense of improper turn at a stop light if the person does any of the following while making a turn described in this section: (a)Fails to stop at the light as required. (b)Fails to exercise care to avoid an accident. (c)Disobeys the directions of a traffic control device or a police officer that prohibits the turn. (d)Fails to yield the right of way to traffic lawfully within the intersection or approaching so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. (3)A driver who is making a turn described in this section is also subject to the requirements under ORS 811.028 (Failure to stop and remain stopped for pedestrian) to stop for a pedestrian while making the turn. (4)The offense described in this section, improper turn at a stop light, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 ?628; 1997 c.507 ?7; 2003 c.278 ?7; 2005 c.746 ?3] From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 22:14:11 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:14:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <7BE0416089284CDD89CA4069A141F622@GeriPC> Not necessarily -- they may be planning to go straight. Ed, picture this: You are on Elm St. heading north, planning to make a left turn onto Pacific Ave. (which is one-way heading west). Opposite you at the intersection is another car on Elm waiting at the light, except they are planning to come straight across the intersection heading south.... You are now not in a position to make your left turn west on one-way Pacific Ave. because the person coming straight across the intersection has the right of way over your turning left directly in front of them. This cancels out your right to a legal left on red. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... > > > > Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! > (different lane) > Ed > > Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies > if > there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > second... > >> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. >> >> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >> lights. >> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >> family in a >> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >> >> Deb >> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >> >>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>> really >>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit >>> I >>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>> red >>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>> thing >>> as running a red light. >>> >>> John >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>> >>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>> > your >>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless >>> > if >>> > there are cameras. >>> > >>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of >>> the >>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>> > lock >>> > the >>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going >>> > to >>> > turn >>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for >>> > me >>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>> > when >>> > it >>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because >>> > my >>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>> > >>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>> > >>> > Deb Bratland >>> > >>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>> >> sound? >>> >> >>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>> >> break >>> >> the >>> >> law? >>> >> >>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection >>> was >>> >>> >> a >>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >>> >> it >>> >> is >>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>> >> >>> >> David >>> >> >>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>> >> > waiting >>> >> > to >>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >>> >> (after >>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>> >> they're >>> >> not >>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>> because >>> >>> >> I >>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>> >> > >>> >> > Deb >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > GroveNet mailing list >>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 22:15:34 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:15:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: And that's why. And I learned this from the manual ages ago when helping one of my kids study for the driving test. Turned out there were a few little items in there I hadn't known before! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:43 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... > I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if > there > was traffic facing you. Is the manual on-line somewhere? > > But I must admit one day when I was making a "left on red" from Main St. > onto Pacific heading west, that I started to go on the red, then the light > suddenly turned green and the car facing me (heading south on Main St. > gunned it! Definitely scared me. > -marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal > untilthelastsecond... > >> >> >> >> Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! >> (different lane) >> Ed >> >> Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies >> if >> there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Debra Bratland" >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast >> second... >> >>> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. >>> >>> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >>> lights. >>> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >>> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >>> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >>> family in a >>> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >>> >>> Deb >>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >>> >>>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>>> really >>>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >>>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad >>>> habit >>>> I >>>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >>>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>>> red >>>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>>> thing >>>> as running a red light. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>> thelast >>>> second... >>>> >>>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>>> >>>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>> thelast >>>> second... >>>> >>>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>>> > your >>>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - >>>> > unless >>>> > if >>>> > there are cameras. >>>> > >>>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle >>>> > of >>>> the >>>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>>> > lock >>>> > the >>>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going >>>> > to >>>> > turn >>>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess >>>> > for >>>> > me >>>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>>> > when >>>> > it >>>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, >>>> > because >>>> > my >>>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>>> > >>>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>>> > >>>> > Deb Bratland >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>>> >> sound? >>>> >> >>>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>>> >> break >>>> >> the >>>> >> law? >>>> >> >>>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the >>>> >> intersection >>>> was >>>> >>>> >> a >>>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >>>> >> it >>>> >> is >>>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>>> >> >>>> >> David >>>> >> >>>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>>> >> > waiting >>>> >> > to >>>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can >>>> >> enter >>>> >> (after >>>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>>> >> they're >>>> >> not >>>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>>> because >>>> >>>> >> I >>>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Deb >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > GroveNet mailing list >>>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 22:19:17 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:19:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: Too tired tonight, but feel I need to find the item my kids were tested on... unless it's been changed since the 1990s? Sure would like to clear it up for myself now! : ) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:12 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... > > On Jul 5, 2010, at 9:43 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if >> there was traffic facing you. > > Perhaps it is good practice to be extra careful for the reasons given, but > the turn is legal. > > >> Is the manual on-line somewhere? > > Yes, > > https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/811.360 > > 811.360 When vehicle turn permitted at stop light > > (1)The driver of a vehicle, subject to this section, who is intending to > turn at an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a > steady circular red signal or a steady red arrow signal may do any of the > following without violating ORS 811.260(Appropriate driver responses to > traffic control devices) and811.265 (Failure to obey traffic control > device): > (a)Make a right turn into a two-way street. > (b)Make a right or left turn into a one-way street in the direction of > traffic upon the one-way street. > > (2)A person commits the offense of improper turn at a stop light if the > person does any of the following while making a turn described in this > section: > (a)Fails to stop at the light as required. > (b)Fails to exercise care to avoid an accident. > (c)Disobeys the directions of a traffic control device or a police officer > that prohibits the turn. > (d)Fails to yield the right of way to traffic lawfully within the > intersection or approaching so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. > (3)A driver who is making a turn described in this section is also subject > to the requirements under ORS 811.028 (Failure to stop and remain stopped > for pedestrian) to stop for a pedestrian while making the turn. > (4)The offense described in this section, improper turn at a stop light, > is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 ?628; 1997 c.507 ?7; 2003 > c.278 ?7; 2005 c.746 ?3] > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jbcoops at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 22:21:18 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <708591.99588.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Frankly Marian I hadn't heard that myself.? That means that even though it's a red light and you're doing your left if there's someone waiting (for the red) opposite you, you're not allowed to do it.? I don't think I've ever considered *not* turning left because of that myself, just being keenly aware that the light may turn green while watching traffic to the right and across (and pedestrians coming from the left, not to mention bicycles) seems more than enough and probably beyond the capability of most drivers! As for the guy who gunned it into the intersection I always take the opposite approach.? If I'm driving up to the intersection with a red light that just turned green and the car opposite with their left blinker on my foot is over the brake for reasons mentioned.? If I was already stopped and the light turns green I make sure I have some sort of eye contact with the opposite driver and make my cross, keeping to the right and giving them as much room as possible to make their left turn as quickly as possible after I clear.? Again... it's all about focus, concentration, knowing what the other might do at any moment, and being as courteous as possible at all times. --Jeff --- On Mon, 7/5/10, Marian Cakarnis wrote: From: Marian Cakarnis Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Monday, July 5, 2010, 9:43 PM I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if there was traffic facing you.? Is the manual on-line somewhere? But I must admit one day when I was making a "left on red" from Main St. onto Pacific heading west, that I started to go on the red, then the light suddenly turned green and the car facing me (heading south on Main St. gunned it!? Definitely scared me. -marian From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 22:23:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:23:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <1E00B446-AA93-4ABC-88E9-B7A4169389EB@verizon.net> I believe that the traffic rule refers to traffic that has right of way. A car that is planning to come straight through the intersection is held in place by the red light, therefore they do not have a right of way. When the light goes green, they will have right of way to turning traffic. David On Jul 5, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > And that's why. And I learned this from the manual ages ago when helping one of my kids study for the driving test. Turned out there were a few little items in there I hadn't known before! > > > Geri From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 22:32:05 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:32:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers whodon't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <1E00B446-AA93-4ABC-88E9-B7A4169389EB@verizon.net> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> <1E00B446-AA93-4ABC-88E9-B7A4169389EB@verizon.net> Message-ID: Lol, David ~ I always understood the part about the opposite car being held in place by a red light. : ) Duh. Am wondering now if this was a misinterpretation by our driving instructor... of https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/811.350 ... Somehow it made safe sense to me, and that together with a couple near-accidents I'd witnessed with that mis-interpretation not being followed, must have cemented the agreement to it in my mind! Apologies, apologies, for the misinformation, GroveNuts! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:23 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers whodon'tsignaluntilthelastsecond...> I believe that the traffic rule refers to traffic that has right of way. A car that is planning to come straight through the intersection is held in place by the red light, therefore they do not have a right of way. When the light goes green, they will have right of way to turning traffic. > > David > > On Jul 5, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> And that's why. And I learned this from the manual ages ago when helping >> one of my kids study for the driving test. Turned out there were a few >> little items in there I hadn't known before! >> >> >> Geri > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 23:09:33 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:09:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast second... In-Reply-To: <879362.71328.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <879362.71328.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81A5B8AE-F01D-4510-92F3-E7DFD11FE2C3@verizon.net> I ain't no squirrel! As a pedestrian, I have to be extra careful crossing a one-way street when there is a car going the same direction to my left, because they are looking left and don't look for pedestrians ( like me ) on their right who will be crossing in the same gap that they are waiting for. On Jul 5, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > As for Geri's comment that it's not legal to make a left turn onto a one way against the light if there is oncoming traffic waiting, therein lies the rub. People take one look and don't see any oncoming cars and then look right for upwards of 30 seconds and then make their turn without looking forward again. That's what I mean about people not thinking about their driving. I glance left--right--forward and left-right again before I do any turn. There might be a squirrel out there for crying out loud! > > --Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 5 23:31:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:31:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until the lastsecond... In-Reply-To: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> That was a big Ooooops! I found that we have something similar. Ouch. BTW, in Oregon, not all cross walks are marked. David 811.020 Passing stopped vehicle at crosswalk (1)The driver of a vehicle commits the offense of passing a stopped vehicle at a crosswalk if the driver: (a)Approaches from the rear another vehicle that is stopped at a marked or an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway; and (b)Overtakes and passes the stopped vehicle. (2)The offense described in this section, passing a stopped vehicle at a crosswalk, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 ?546] 801.220 "Crosswalk" "Crosswalk" means any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere that is distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface of the roadway that conform in design to the standards established for crosswalks under ORS810.200 (Uniform standards for traffic control devices). Whenever marked crosswalks have been indicated, such crosswalks and no other shall be deemed lawful across such roadway at that intersection. Where no marked crosswalk exists, a crosswalk is that portion of the roadway described in the following: (1)Where sidewalks, shoulders or a combination thereof exists, a crosswalk is the portion of a roadway at an intersection, not more than 20 feet in width as measured from the prolongation of the lateral line of the roadway toward the prolongation of the adjacent property line, that is included within: (a)The connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks, shoulders or a combination thereof on opposite sides of the street or highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traveled roadway;or (b)The prolongation of the lateral lines of a sidewalk, shoulder or both, to the sidewalk or shoulder on the opposite side of the street, if the prolongation would meet such sidewalk or shoulder. (2)If there is neither sidewalk nor shoulder, a crosswalk is the portion of the roadway at an intersection, measuring not less than six feet in width, that would be included within the prolongation of the lateral lines of the sidewalk, shoulder or both on the opposite side of the street or highway if there were a sidewalk. [1983 c.338 ?36] On Jul 4, 2010, at 8:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > Acknowledging general traffic problems, but specifically addressing stopping at crosswalks when pedestrians want to cross, but there is no stop light or crossing light. > ... > The trooper nailed him and by the time the judge read all of the violations, he fined the guy $2,000. > ... > Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 01:06:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 01:06:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Cap and Trade Tax Message-ID: <4C32E417.000006.00212@DON-B2514E06367> What do you think of the proposed Cap and Trade Tax? Don Cap and Trade is an Energy Tax The Left believes if gas costs more you'll drive less. That's why they want to increase the gas tax, but they don't want you to know. They'll try to say it is not a gasoline tax because it doesn?t raise the current 18.4 cents per gallon Federal Gasoline Excise Tax. The details reveal their proposal is a new tax on top of the existing Federal Gasoline Excise Tax. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), who helped craft this new gas tax admitted the higher costs for energy companies ?will be passed on? to motorists at the pump. Don't be fooled by their "spin". This bill is a Gas Tax on you and your family -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100706/51be7c50/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 07:34:39 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 07:34:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: Geri - since that last experience, I tend to wait till the green light instead of doing a "left on red", unless there is no one around! I'm sure it would do all of us some good to re-read the manual. I have another 4 years before I'll have a new driver in the family - yikes, when I just typed the "4", I had a flash of thought about how quickly 4 years will go by! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Geri Steele" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:15 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don'tsignaluntilthelastsecond...> And that's why. And I learned this from the manual ages ago when helping > one of my kids study for the driving test. Turned out there were a few > little items in there I hadn't known before! > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:43 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't > signaluntilthelastsecond... > >> I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if >> there >> was traffic facing you. Is the manual on-line somewhere? >> >> But I must admit one day when I was making a "left on red" from Main St. >> onto Pacific heading west, that I started to go on the red, then the >> light >> suddenly turned green and the car facing me (heading south on Main St. >> gunned it! Definitely scared me. >> -marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Ed Davie" >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal >> untilthelastsecond... >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! >>> (different lane) >>> Ed >>> >>> Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies >>> if >>> there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>>> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. >>>> >>>> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >>>> lights. >>>> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >>>> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >>>> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >>>> family in a >>>> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >>>> >>>> Deb >>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>>>> really >>>>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >>>>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad >>>>> habit >>>>> I >>>>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific >>>>> and >>>>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>>>> red >>>>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>>>> thing >>>>> as running a red light. >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>> thelast >>>>> second... >>>>> >>>>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>>>> >>>>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>>>> >>>>> Geri >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>> thelast >>>>> second... >>>>> >>>>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>>>> > your >>>>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - >>>>> > unless >>>>> > if >>>>> > there are cameras. >>>>> > >>>>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle >>>>> > of >>>>> the >>>>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>>>> > lock >>>>> > the >>>>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going >>>>> > to >>>>> > turn >>>>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess >>>>> > for >>>>> > me >>>>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>>>> > when >>>>> > it >>>>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, >>>>> > because >>>>> > my >>>>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>>>> > >>>>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>>>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>>>> > >>>>> > Deb Bratland >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>>>> >> sound? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>>>> >> break >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> law? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the >>>>> >> intersection >>>>> was >>>>> >>>>> >> a >>>>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even >>>>> >> when >>>>> >> it >>>>> >> is >>>>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> David >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>>>> >> > waiting >>>>> >> > to >>>>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can >>>>> >> enter >>>>> >> (after >>>>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>>>> >> they're >>>>> >> not >>>>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>>>> because >>>>> >>>>> >> I >>>>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Deb >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > GroveNet mailing list >>>>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 07:46:39 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 07:46:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> Message-ID: OK - now I learned something new again. The way I interpret this, it sounds like a "crosswalk", is virtually anywhere a walker decides to step off the curb - am I right? I'd always assumed a pedestrian had the right of way in virtually any circumstance, but I didn't know a crosswalk could be defined as such, anywhere a person decides to cross. I guess that's why the term "marked" and "unmarked" crosswalks are commonly used! Another place where I've noticed people are trying to be dangerously generous is the Hwy. 47/ Purdin-Verboort Rd. intersection. Often when heading northeast on Purdin Rd towards Verboort, the person on the other side motions me through when they are turning left, although they've been sitting there when I arrive at the intersection. It adds to everyone's frustration because I think many people are unsure of the right-of-way at that intersection. It used to be difficult during rush hour to navigate that intersection, although I must admit it's been much easier since the downturn of the economy. During the evening return to FG, traffic used to back up about ten cars on Verboort Rd. But I haven't seen that in over a year. So there's one good thing about this bad economy: it's probably reduced the incidence of traffic accidents and fatalities! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:31 PM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... > That was a big Ooooops! > > I found that we have something similar. Ouch. > > BTW, in Oregon, not all cross walks are marked. > > David > > 811.020 Passing stopped vehicle at crosswalk > > (1)The driver of a vehicle commits the offense of passing a stopped > vehicle at a crosswalk if the driver: > (a)Approaches from the rear another vehicle that is stopped at a marked or > an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross > the roadway; and > (b)Overtakes and passes the stopped vehicle. > (2)The offense described in this section, passing a stopped vehicle at a > crosswalk, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 ?546] > > > 801.220 "Crosswalk" > > "Crosswalk" means any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere > that is distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other > markings on the surface of the roadway that conform in design to the > standards established for crosswalks under ORS810.200 (Uniform standards > for traffic control devices). > > Whenever marked crosswalks have been indicated, such crosswalks and no > other shall be deemed lawful across such roadway at that intersection. > > Where no marked crosswalk exists, a crosswalk is that portion of the > roadway described in the following: > > (1)Where sidewalks, shoulders or a combination thereof exists, a crosswalk > is the portion of a roadway at an intersection, not more than 20 feet in > width as measured from the prolongation of the lateral line of the roadway > toward the prolongation of the adjacent property line, that is included > within: > (a)The connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks, shoulders or a > combination thereof on opposite sides of the street or highway measured > from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traveled > roadway;or > (b)The prolongation of the lateral lines of a sidewalk, shoulder or both, > to the sidewalk or shoulder on the opposite side of the street, if the > prolongation would meet such sidewalk or shoulder. > (2)If there is neither sidewalk nor shoulder, a crosswalk is the portion > of the roadway at an intersection, measuring not less than six feet in > width, that would be included within the prolongation of the lateral lines > of the sidewalk, shoulder or both on the opposite side of the street or > highway if there were a sidewalk. [1983 c.338 ?36] > > > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 8:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Acknowledging general traffic problems, but specifically addressing >> stopping at crosswalks when pedestrians want to cross, but there is no >> stop light or crossing light. >> ... >> The trooper nailed him and by the time the judge read all of the >> violations, he fined the guy $2,000. >> ... >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 08:16:41 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:16:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> Message-ID: A two-way stop is not the same as a four-way stop, where the right-of-way depends on who got there first. I was taught (in Minnesota many years ago) that the person going straight always has the right-of-way, unless if a traffic signal indicates otherwise. A two-way stop does not depend on who got there first. So the people who got to the intersection first and who are turning left and motioning you across are following the correct rule - at least the rule I was taught back in the dark ages. Is it different in Oregon? Maybe I'm out of touch with current Oregon law. I avoid that intersection as often as possible when heading out of Forest Grove for that very reason. If I am going straight and I assume I have the right-of-way, I'm never sure if the left turners facing me know the rule. Of course, it's the same when crossing Pacific or 19th in town, but the speeds are lower so it's not as stressful. Deb Bratland On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > OK - now I learned something new again. The way I interpret this, it > sounds > like a "crosswalk", is virtually anywhere a walker decides to step off the > curb - am I right? I'd always assumed a pedestrian had the right of way in > virtually any circumstance, but I didn't know a crosswalk could be defined > as such, anywhere a person decides to cross. I guess that's why the term > "marked" and "unmarked" crosswalks are commonly used! > > Another place where I've noticed people are trying to be dangerously > generous is the Hwy. 47/ Purdin-Verboort Rd. intersection. Often when > heading northeast on Purdin Rd towards Verboort, the person on the other > side motions me through when they are turning left, although they've been > sitting there when I arrive at the intersection. It adds to everyone's > frustration because I think many people are unsure of the right-of-way at > that intersection. > > It used to be difficult during rush hour to navigate that intersection, > although I must admit it's been much easier since the downturn of the > economy. During the evening return to FG, traffic used to back up about > ten > cars on Verboort Rd. But I haven't seen that in over a year. So there's > one good thing about this bad economy: it's probably reduced the incidence > of traffic accidents and fatalities! > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:31 PM > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests > list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > thelastsecond... > > > That was a big Ooooops! > > > > I found that we have something similar. Ouch. > > > > BTW, in Oregon, not all cross walks are marked. > > > > David > > > > 811.020 Passing stopped vehicle at crosswalk > > > > (1)The driver of a vehicle commits the offense of passing a stopped > > vehicle at a crosswalk if the driver: > > (a)Approaches from the rear another vehicle that is stopped at a marked > or > > an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross > > the roadway; and > > (b)Overtakes and passes the stopped vehicle. > > (2)The offense described in this section, passing a stopped vehicle at a > > crosswalk, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 ?546] > > > > > > 801.220 "Crosswalk" > > > > "Crosswalk" means any portion of a roadway at an intersection or > elsewhere > > that is distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other > > markings on the surface of the roadway that conform in design to the > > standards established for crosswalks under ORS810.200 (Uniform standards > > for traffic control devices). > > > > Whenever marked crosswalks have been indicated, such crosswalks and no > > other shall be deemed lawful across such roadway at that intersection. > > > > Where no marked crosswalk exists, a crosswalk is that portion of the > > roadway described in the following: > > > > (1)Where sidewalks, shoulders or a combination thereof exists, a > crosswalk > > is the portion of a roadway at an intersection, not more than 20 feet in > > width as measured from the prolongation of the lateral line of the > roadway > > toward the prolongation of the adjacent property line, that is included > > within: > > (a)The connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks, shoulders or a > > combination thereof on opposite sides of the street or highway measured > > from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the > traveled > > roadway;or > > (b)The prolongation of the lateral lines of a sidewalk, shoulder or both, > > to the sidewalk or shoulder on the opposite side of the street, if the > > prolongation would meet such sidewalk or shoulder. > > (2)If there is neither sidewalk nor shoulder, a crosswalk is the portion > > of the roadway at an intersection, measuring not less than six feet in > > width, that would be included within the prolongation of the lateral > lines > > of the sidewalk, shoulder or both on the opposite side of the street or > > highway if there were a sidewalk. [1983 c.338 ?36] > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 8:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > > > >> Acknowledging general traffic problems, but specifically addressing > >> stopping at crosswalks when pedestrians want to cross, but there is no > >> stop light or crossing light. > >> ... > >> The trooper nailed him and by the time the judge read all of the > >> violations, he fined the guy $2,000. > >> ... > >> Don > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 10:35:18 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:35:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers whodon't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net><084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <672CDBEACE2940AC8DACCE6B051EEFD8@GeriPC> : ) Oh, are you ever right about that: 4 is only a single digit, which will slide down to 0 too soon! I became very nervous when my granddaughter (now 10) informed us on her 8th birthday that she was "halfway to her driver's license." Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:34 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers whodon'tsignaluntilthelastsecond...> Geri - since that last experience, I tend to wait till the green light > instead of doing a "left on red", unless there is no one around! > > I'm sure it would do all of us some good to re-read the manual. I have > another 4 years before I'll have a new driver in the family - yikes, when > I > just typed the "4", I had a flash of thought about how quickly 4 years > will > go by! > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Geri Steele" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:15 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who > don'tsignaluntilthelastsecond...> And that's why. And I learned this from > the manual ages ago when helping >> one of my kids study for the driving test. Turned out there were a few >> little items in there I hadn't known before! >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:43 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't >> signaluntilthelastsecond... >> >>> I never heard that the "left on red onto a one-way" wasn't allowed if >>> there >>> was traffic facing you. Is the manual on-line somewhere? >>> >>> But I must admit one day when I was making a "left on red" from Main St. >>> onto Pacific heading west, that I started to go on the red, then the >>> light >>> suddenly turned green and the car facing me (heading south on Main St. >>> gunned it! Definitely scared me. >>> -marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Ed Davie" >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal >>> untilthelastsecond... >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! >>>> (different lane) >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only >>>> applies >>>> if >>>> there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the >>>> intersection. >>>> >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>> thelast >>>> second... >>>> >>>>> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >>>>> lights. >>>>> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >>>>> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >>>>> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >>>>> family in a >>>>> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >>>>> >>>>> Deb >>>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>>>>> really >>>>>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt >>>>>> when >>>>>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad >>>>>> habit >>>>>> I >>>>>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific >>>>>> and >>>>>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>>>>> red >>>>>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>>>>> thing >>>>>> as running a red light. >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>>> thelast >>>>>> second... >>>>>> >>>>>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>>>>> >>>>>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>>>>> >>>>>> Geri >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>>>>> thelast >>>>>> second... >>>>>> >>>>>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>>>>> > your >>>>>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - >>>>>> > unless >>>>>> > if >>>>>> > there are cameras. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle >>>>>> > of >>>>>> the >>>>>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>>>>> > lock >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just >>>>>> > going >>>>>> > to >>>>>> > turn >>>>>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess >>>>>> > for >>>>>> > me >>>>>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>>>>> > when >>>>>> > it >>>>>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, >>>>>> > because >>>>>> > my >>>>>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>>>>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Deb Bratland >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>>>>> > >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>>>>> >> sound? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>>>>> >> break >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> law? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the >>>>>> >> intersection >>>>>> was >>>>>> >>>>>> >> a >>>>>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even >>>>>> >> when >>>>>> >> it >>>>>> >> is >>>>>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> David >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>>>>> >> > waiting >>>>>> >> > to >>>>>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can >>>>>> >> enter >>>>>> >> (after >>>>>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>>>>> >> they're >>>>>> >> not >>>>>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>>>>> because >>>>>> >>>>>> >> I >>>>>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > Deb >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 11:23:53 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 11:23:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <7BE0416089284CDD89CA4069A141F622@GeriPC> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC><000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> <7BE0416089284CDD89CA4069A141F622@GeriPC> Message-ID: <8B9F5DB4B2CA461CBF8B3C7C25065701@EdDaviePC> Not if the light remains red during your turn! Ed From: Geri Steele Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... Not necessarily -- they may be planning to go straight. Ed, picture this: You are on Elm St. heading north, planning to make a left turn onto Pacific Ave. (which is one-way heading west). Opposite you at the intersection is another car on Elm waiting at the light, except they are planning to come straight across the intersection heading south.... You are now not in a position to make your left turn west on one-way Pacific Ave. because the person coming straight across the intersection has the right of way over your turning left directly in front of them. This cancels out your right to a legal left on red. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... > > > > Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! > (different lane) > Ed > > Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies > if > there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > second... > >> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. >> >> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red >> lights. >> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" >> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really >> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the >> family in a >> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. >> >> Deb >> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: >> >>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't >>> really >>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when >>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad habit >>> I >>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and >>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a >>> red >>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same >>> thing >>> as running a red light. >>> >>> John >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) >>> >>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until >>> thelast >>> second... >>> >>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice >>> > your >>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - unless >>> > if >>> > there are cameras. >>> > >>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle of >>> the >>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I >>> > lock >>> > the >>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going >>> > to >>> > turn >>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess for >>> > me >>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do >>> > when >>> > it >>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, because >>> > my >>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. >>> > >>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow >>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. >>> > >>> > Deb Bratland >>> > >>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a >>> >> sound? >>> >> >>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still >>> >> break >>> >> the >>> >> law? >>> >> >>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the intersection >>> was >>> >>> >> a >>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when >>> >> it >>> >> is >>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. >>> >> >>> >> David >>> >> >>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people >>> >> > waiting >>> >> > to >>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can enter >>> >> (after >>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If >>> >> they're >>> >> not >>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit >>> because >>> >>> >> I >>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. >>> >> > >>> >> > Deb >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> GroveNet mailing list >>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > GroveNet mailing list >>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:41:42 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:41:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signaluntilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <8B9F5DB4B2CA461CBF8B3C7C25065701@EdDaviePC> References: <7520-4C30CC44-1036@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1712217859-1278268031-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2084649484-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <496FF72F993348CA8C73400B29D0B526@GeriPC> <000001cb1c90$d53faee0$7fbf0ca0$@net> <084FEC0A68E049669B1B1BED24CB2564@EdDaviePC> <7BE0416089284CDD89CA4069A141F622@GeriPC> <8B9F5DB4B2CA461CBF8B3C7C25065701@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: I agree with Ed - I don't think there's anything that says that you can't make a left turn on red just because someone facing you is going to come straight across. They're stopped at the red light, and can't move until the light turns green. At the point when the light turns green, of course, you lose your right-of-way and they get to go straight before you turn left. I still can't locate my son's driving manual ... Deb Bratland On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Not if the light remains red during your turn! > Ed > > > > From: Geri Steele > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:14 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't > signaluntilthelastsecond... > > > > Not necessarily -- they may be planning to go straight. Ed, picture this: > You are on Elm St. heading north, planning to make a left turn onto Pacific > Ave. (which is one-way heading west). Opposite you at the intersection is > another car on Elm waiting at the light, except they are planning to come > straight across the intersection heading south.... You are now not in a > position to make your left turn west on one-way Pacific Ave. because the > person coming straight across the intersection has the right of way over > your turning left directly in front of them. This cancels out your right > to > a legal left on red. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 9:06 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal > untilthelastsecond... > > > > > > > > > Why would that matter. They can't do anything but a right turn on red! > > (different lane) > > Ed > > > > Also, on the "left turn onto a one-way street on red," that only applies > > if > > there is no traffic facing you on the opposite side of the intersection. > > > > > > Geri > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Debra Bratland" > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 5:07 PM > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelast > > second... > > > >> Me too on the seatbelt thing. I feel completely vulnerable without it. > >> > >> I haven't noticed people making left-hand turns off Pacific on red > >> lights. > >> I suppose they're getting the "left-hand turn on red after stopping" > >> reversed and thinking it's OK to go *from* a one-way, when it's really > >> *to*a one-way that's legal. Hm. I will have a new driver in the > >> family in a > >> few months. So many things for him to learn and remember. > >> > >> Deb > >> On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 3:24 PM, John Welch wrote: > >> > >>> I agree - some of the things are just so much a habit that we don't > >>> really > >>> think about it. I frequently find myself hooking up my seat belt when > >>> moving the car from the driveway 25 feet into the garage! One bad > habit > >>> I > >>> see from time to time at Pacific and Main and more often at Pacific and > >>> Hawthorne or 19th and Cedar is folks pulling up in the left lane on a > >>> red > >>> light, stopping, and then turning left if there is no traffic. Same > >>> thing > >>> as running a red light. > >>> > >>> John > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] > On > >>> Behalf Of Geri Steele > >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:20 AM > >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>> thelast > >>> second... > >>> > >>> Your habits of safety sound just fine to me, Deb! : ) > >>> > >>> They are also good examples for the younger set .... > >>> > >>> Geri > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Debra Bratland" > >>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 5:44 PM > >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until > >>> thelast > >>> second... > >>> > >>> > Of course, if there are no other vehicles, there's no one to notice > >>> > your > >>> > violation. So it's a moot point and you don't need a defense - > unless > >>> > if > >>> > there are cameras. > >>> > > >>> > My kids ask me why I signal even when no one else is around (middle > of > >>> the > >>> > night, dead end, empty roundabout, etc.). My husband asks me why I > >>> > lock > >>> > the > >>> > door every single time I step into the house, even if I'm just going > >>> > to > >>> > turn > >>> > around and leave again. I tell them it's just habit - and I guess > for > >>> > me > >>> > that's my best way of ensuring that I'll do what I'm supposed to do > >>> > when > >>> > it > >>> > matters. I don't even have to think about it - which is good, > because > >>> > my > >>> > brain is too cluttered as it is. > >>> > > >>> > Anyway ... I'm enjoying the traffic discussion and the traffic flow > >>> > information that you're providing. Thanks. > >>> > > >>> > Deb Bratland > >>> > > >>> > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, David Morelli > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a > >>> >> sound? > >>> >> > >>> >> If a driver fails to signal, and no one is around, do they still > >>> >> break > >>> >> the > >>> >> law? > >>> >> > >>> >> I would prefer that the absence of other vehicles at the > intersection > >>> was > >>> > >>> >> a > >>> >> valid defense. That way I would not be required to signal even when > >>> >> it > >>> >> is > >>> >> midnight and there are no other cars at the roundabout. > >>> >> > >>> >> David > >>> >> > >>> >> On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> > The roundabout turn signal makes sense, because of the people > >>> >> > waiting > >>> >> > to > >>> >> enter the roundabout. If someone's signaling their exit, I can > enter > >>> >> (after > >>> >> ascertaining that they mean to do what they're signaling). If > >>> >> they're > >>> >> not > >>> >> signalling, then I don't enter - and get irritated when they exit > >>> because > >>> > >>> >> I > >>> >> could have entered if they'd only signalled their intent. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Deb > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> GroveNet mailing list > >>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> >> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > GroveNet mailing list > >>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 13:44:27 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:44:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal until thelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Jul 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > OK - now I learned something new again. The way I interpret this, it sounds like a "crosswalk", is virtually anywhere a walker decides to step off the curb - am I right? I don't think so. However, any intersection can be presumed to have crosswalks from corner to near corner unless posted otherwise. > Another place where I've noticed people are trying to be dangerously generous is the Hwy. 47/ Purdin-Verboort Rd. intersection. Often when heading northeast on Purdin Rd towards Verboort, the person on the other side motions me through when they are turning left, although they've been sitting there when I arrive at the intersection. It adds to everyone's frustration because I think many people are unsure of the right-of-way at that intersection. I feel that the driver was trying to induce you to perform an illegal act. You have a stop sign and must yield to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching so closely... . The vehicle making the left turn does not have a stop sign, they only have a requirement to yield to the traffic approaching from the opposite direction whose lane they will cross. They are not required to yield to you, and you are required to stop for them. David 811.275 Failure to yield right of way at uncontrolled intersection; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of failure to yield the right of way at an uncontrolled intersection if the person is operating a motor vehicle that is approaching an uncontrolled highway intersection and the person does not look out for and give right of way to any driver on the right simultaneously approaching a given point, regardless of which driver first reaches and enters the intersection. (2) This section is subject to the described provisions of the following sections: (a) The provisions of ORS 811.260, relating to stop signs and yield signs. 811.260 Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices. ... (11) Stop signs. A driver approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no marked crosswalk, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering it. After stopping, the driver shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection. 811.350 Dangerous left turn; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of making a dangerous left turn if the person: (a) Is operating a vehicle; (b) Intends to turn the vehicle to the left within an intersection or into an alley, private road, driveway or place from a highway; and (c) Does not yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction that is within the intersection or so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. > > It used to be difficult during rush hour to navigate that intersection, > although I must admit it's been much easier since the downturn of the > economy. During the evening return to FG, traffic used to back up about ten > cars on Verboort Rd. But I haven't seen that in over a year. So there's > one good thing about this bad economy: it's probably reduced the incidence > of traffic accidents and fatalities! > > Marian From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 14:54:32 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:54:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1E0105E02690498594321447CC11568C@JeffVAIO> Hi David, I might not have been clear. If I am heading from Forest Grove to Verboort on Purdin Rd., and there is someone waiting at the stop sign heading in the opposite direction, they often want me to proceed straight before they turn left. I've been under the assumption that the person arriving at the intersection first has the right-of-way. But I might be wrong - which would explain a lot of the confusion at that intersection. Gosh, I hope I'm the only one and once you fix me, the intersection will be much safer! Marian >> Another place where I've noticed people are trying to be dangerously >> generous is the Hwy. 47/ Purdin-Verboort Rd. intersection. Often when >> heading northeast on Purdin Rd towards Verboort, the person on the other >> side motions me through when they are turning left, although they've been >> sitting there when I arrive at the intersection. It adds to everyone's >> frustration because I think many people are unsure of the right-of-way at >> that intersection. > > I feel that the driver was trying to induce you to perform an illegal act. > You have a stop sign and must yield to any vehicle in the intersection or > approaching so closely... . The vehicle making the left turn does not > have a stop sign, they only have a requirement to yield to the traffic > approaching from the opposite direction whose lane they will cross. They > are not required to yield to you, and you are required to stop for them. From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 21:26:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 21:26:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pet peeve: drivers who don't signal untilthelastsecond... In-Reply-To: <1E0105E02690498594321447CC11568C@JeffVAIO> References: <4C3154B9.00000C.02180@DON-B2514E06367> <4BB5316E-4537-496A-B68E-9416B9E05C9B@verizon.net> <1E0105E02690498594321447CC11568C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <924CB90A-4260-4D62-85FA-0BFB3731B604@verizon.net> Ooops! That makes another mistake. I misunderstood you. I understood that you were on Purdin/Verboort and a driver on Hwy 47 ( who was making a left turn ) signaled you to go. If both you and the other car are on Purdin/Verboort road, and one of you is making a left turn, the left turn car must yield to a car going straight after that car has made their full stop. If the straight through car has not yet reached the intersection where they are required to stop, and if you have already stopped, and there is room for you to make your left turn safely before the other car has made a complete stop, then I would guess ( it is a guess because I am not a traffic judge ) that you could make a turn before they finish their required stop. If both of you are stopped, the through traffic has the right of way, without considering who got there first. If there are two cars facing me, the car behind them hasn't made their required stop yet, so I move as soon as the lead car moves into the intersection. David On Jul 6, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Hi David, > > I might not have been clear. If I am heading from Forest Grove to Verboort > on Purdin Rd., and there is someone waiting at the stop sign heading in the > opposite direction, they often want me to proceed straight before they turn > left. I've been under the assumption that the person arriving at the > intersection first has the right-of-way. But I might be wrong - which would > explain a lot of the confusion at that intersection. > > Gosh, I hope I'm the only one and once you fix me, the intersection will be > much safer! > Marian > >>> Another place where I've noticed people are trying to be dangerously >>> generous is the Hwy. 47/ Purdin-Verboort Rd. intersection. Often when >>> heading northeast on Purdin Rd towards Verboort, the person on the other >>> side motions me through when they are turning left, although they've been >>> sitting there when I arrive at the intersection. It adds to everyone's >>> frustration because I think many people are unsure of the right-of-way at >>> that intersection. >> >> I feel that the driver was trying to induce you to perform an illegal act. >> You have a stop sign and must yield to any vehicle in the intersection or >> approaching so closely... . The vehicle making the left turn does not >> have a stop sign, they only have a requirement to yield to the traffic >> approaching from the opposite direction whose lane they will cross. They >> are not required to yield to you, and you are required to stop for them. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 21:52:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 21:52:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Cap and Trade Tax In-Reply-To: <4C32E417.000006.00212@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C32E417.000006.00212@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <883BDD30-28E0-4932-B21E-E1449CAFB7D1@verizon.net> For starters, I am quite willing to finance our wars to preserve our access to oil through a tax on oil. Second, I do believe that higher prices will result in less consumption. Since I do believe that the science behind the climate change model is sound science, I am in favor of reducing the consumption of all carbon based fuels that are extracted. Third, I do believe that those who dump waste products should carry the cost of removing the waste products on their books. That will allow the market place to make valid judgements of economic merit. So, I do favor cap and trade, especially if the calculation starts at zero emissions and goes up from there. Is it a tax? Maybe. I would call it "putting the cost on the responsible party." Please understand, my spouse has asthma that is triggered by atmospheric hydrocarbons, by diesel smoke, by cigarette smoke, and by back yard burning. When someone dumps those pollutants into the air, we get to pay for the emergency room visit. Do I want the polluters to pay for the emergency room cost? No. I want them to pay what is necessary so that no one has to suffer health issues because of them. That means they need to pay to get it clean and keep it clean. Anything less means they are levying a tax on my family's health. David On Jul 6, 2010, at 1:06 AM, donkelly wrote: > What do you think of the proposed Cap and Trade Tax? > > Don > > Cap and Trade is an Energy Tax > > The Left believes if gas costs more you'll drive less. That's why they want > to increase the gas tax, but they don't want you to know. > > They'll try to say it is not a gasoline tax because it doesn?t raise the > current 18.4 cents per gallon Federal Gasoline Excise Tax. The details > reveal their proposal is a new tax on top of the existing Federal Gasoline > Excise Tax. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), who helped craft this new gas tax > admitted the higher costs for energy companies ?will be passed on? to > motorists at the pump. > > Don't be fooled by their "spin". This bill is a Gas Tax on you and your family_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Tue Jul 6 19:20:56 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 21:20:56 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: Ann H Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > > Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > > > This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard of. This > woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about 20 of them > were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with sugar water > and this is the result. > The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been studying them > daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water in it, in her > hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder they came over > to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a feather. Abagail > also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she would have > put on makeup.' > > > > > Pretty neat, huh? > > These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures travel through > cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... > > > Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they are not > arguing about whose turn it is next. K. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 28950 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100706/1d3c11c4/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 33525 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100706/1d3c11c4/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 30022 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100706/1d3c11c4/attachment-0002.jpe From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 21:57:43 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 21:57:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise Message-ID: The Forest Grove News-Times had an article on the front page that indicated that the School District administrators would be receiving a 1.75% pay raise. I don't recall any comment on GroveNet, unless it was inside the comments about shorter school days. Is their pay raise in line with everyone else's pay raises? Especially since the school day and year are being cut? David From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 22:20:34 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:20:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Was there some skateboard action on Main Street today? Message-ID: Anyone hear of some unusual skateboard action on Main Street? David From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 22:27:53 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:27:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D65A2308317409AA349A43399431D85@JeffVAIO> OK - I have to admit, I'm always a skeptic when I see really cool pictures and wonder if they are real or photoshopped. So I checked Snopes and found more information about the women in the photograph. BTW - it is true and if you check it out on Snopes she describes the process she went thru to get the hummingbirds trained to sit on her fingers: http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/hummingbirds.asp Very cool - thanks Kristy! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Gravlin" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:20 PM To: ".Travelogue Readers [06509--0508]" Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Ann H > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > >> >> >> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >> >> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard of. This >> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about 20 of them >> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with sugar water >> and this is the result. >> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been studying them >> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water in it, in her >> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder they came over >> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a feather. Abagail >> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she would have >> put on makeup.' >> >> >> >> >> Pretty neat, huh? >> >> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures travel through >> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >> >> >> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they are not >> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 22:35:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 05:35:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: <2D65A2308317409AA349A43399431D85@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <327079501.172207.1278480920319.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Saw a road runner today. Didn't know there were any around here. Humming birds aplenty visiting our feeder. One thing strange is there are practically no yellow jackets around here. Most years they are all over the place. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Marian Cakarnis To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 05:27:53 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight OK - I have to admit, I'm always a skeptic when I see really cool pictures and wonder if they are real or photoshopped. So I checked Snopes and found more information about the women in the photograph. BTW - it is true and if you check it out on Snopes she describes the process she went thru to get the hummingbirds trained to sit on her fingers: http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/hummingbirds.asp Very cool - thanks Kristy! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Gravlin" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:20 PM To: ".Travelogue Readers [06509--0508]" Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Ann H > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > >> >> >> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >> >> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard of. This >> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about 20 of them >> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with sugar water >> and this is the result. >> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been studying them >> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water in it, in her >> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder they came over >> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a feather. Abagail >> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she would have >> put on makeup.' >> >> >> >> >> Pretty neat, huh? >> >> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures travel through >> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >> >> >> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they are not >> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 22:40:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 05:40:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1210129083.172263.1278481207804.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Economy being equal with normal inflation rising (IF SO), and schools are not cut in budgets, then administrative officers should get a raise...........especially if their leadership has saved operations money, cut down on waste, why should they not get a raise for doing a good job? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: grovenet Sent: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:57:43 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise The Forest Grove News-Times had an article on the front page that indicated that the School District administrators would be receiving a 1.75% pay raise. I don't recall any comment on GroveNet, unless it was inside the comments about shorter school days. Is their pay raise in line with everyone else's pay raises? Especially since the school day and year are being cut? David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 22:40:56 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:40:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is another article you might be interested in reading: http://www.oregonlive.com/forest-grove/index.ssf/2010/06/forest_grove_school_district_administrators_get_cost_of_living_raise.html The last four words in the article..... -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:57 PM To: "grovenet" Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise > The Forest Grove News-Times had an article on the front page that indicated that the School District administrators would be receiving a 1.75% pay raise. > > I don't recall any comment on GroveNet, unless it was inside the comments about shorter school days. > > Is their pay raise in line with everyone else's pay raises? Especially since the school day and year are being cut? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 6 23:06:31 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 23:06:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The math is interesting according to the article Her current salary is $130,000 and after her raise plus the salary cut imposed by losing school days (I guess they are docking administrators pay by the equivalent percent as teachers) she will be paid $129,300 next year. Is going from $130,000 to $129,300 a raise or a cut? I guess it depends on how you define the beginning and end points. Katie On Jul 6, 2010, at 10:40 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Here is another article you might be interested in reading: > http://www.oregonlive.com/forest-grove/index.ssf/2010/06/ > forest_grove_school_district_administrators_get_cost_of_living_raise.h > tml > > The last four words in the article..... > > -Marian > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:57 PM > To: "grovenet" > Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise > >> The Forest Grove News-Times had an article on the front page that >> indicated that the School District administrators would be >> receiving a 1.75% pay raise. >> >> I don't recall any comment on GroveNet, unless it was inside the >> comments about shorter school days. >> >> Is their pay raise in line with everyone else's pay raises? >> Especially since the school day and year are being cut? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 6 23:38:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:38:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating! These little birds are so territorial that it is rare to see even two feeding at the same time... maybe when they are migrating they are less aggressive with each other. On Jul 6, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Ann H > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > >> >> >> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >> >> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard >> of. This >> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about >> 20 of them >> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with >> sugar water >> and this is the result. >> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been >> studying them >> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water >> in it, in her >> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder >> they came over >> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a >> feather. Abagail >> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she >> would have >> put on makeup.' >> >> >> >> >> Pretty neat, huh? >> >> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures >> travel through >> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >> >> >> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they >> are not >> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. > > _____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 6 23:41:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:41:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: <327079501.172207.1278480920319.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <327079501.172207.1278480920319.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: A roadrunner? Really? That would be incredible for these parts. I saw a few in the Mojave Desert whenever I was there, but had no idea they ever came this far north. Yellowjackets go in odd cycles. Some years they invade houses, other years they nest in the ground. On Jul 6, 2010, at 10:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > Saw a road runner today. Didn't know there were any around here. > Humming birds aplenty visiting our feeder. One thing strange is > there are practically no yellow jackets around here. Most years > they are all over the place. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marian Cakarnis > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 05:27:53 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare > sight > > OK - I have to admit, I'm always a skeptic when I see really cool > pictures and wonder if they are real or photoshopped. So I > checked Snopes and found more information about the women in the > photograph. BTW - it is true and if you check it out on Snopes she > describes the process she went thru to get the hummingbirds trained > to sit on her fingers: > http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/hummingbirds.asp > > Very cool - thanks Kristy! > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Kristy Gravlin" > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:20 PM > To: ".Travelogue Readers [06509--0508]" > Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > >> >> ------ Forwarded Message >> From: Ann H >> Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >>> >>> >>> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >>> >>> >>> >>> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard >>> of. This >>> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about >>> 20 of them >>> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with >>> sugar water >>> and this is the result. >>> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been >>> studying them >>> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water >>> in it, in her >>> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder >>> they came over >>> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a >>> feather. Abagail >>> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures >>> she would have >>> put on makeup.' >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pretty neat, huh? >>> >>> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures >>> travel through >>> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >>> >>> >>> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they >>> are not >>> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kb-ent at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 00:35:09 2010 From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 00:35:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C342E2D.6030608@comcast.net> I have a few questions. My GF has just started to try and attract hummingbirds, how long can she leave the sugar water in the feeder? Any other tips? Kristy Gravlin wrote: > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Ann H > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > >> >> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >> >> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard of. This >> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about 20 of them >> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with sugar water >> and this is the result. >> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been studying them >> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water in it, in her >> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder they came over >> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a feather. Abagail >> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she would have >> put on makeup.' >> >> >> >> >> Pretty neat, huh? >> >> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures travel through >> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >> >> >> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they are not >> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2986 - Release Date: 07/06/10 11:36:00 > > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 04:11:40 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 04:11:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C0DB17D45C04C85BDD76E30F5B1AEB4@GeriPC> Love it, Kristy -- Thanks for passing it along! : ) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Gravlin" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:20 PM To: ".Travelogue Readers [06509--0508]" Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Ann H > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > >> >> >> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >> >> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard of. This >> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about 20 of >> them >> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with sugar >> water >> and this is the result. >> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been studying >> them >> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water in it, >> in her >> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder they came >> over >> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a feather. >> Abagail >> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures she would >> have >> put on makeup.' >> >> >> >> >> Pretty neat, huh? >> >> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures travel >> through >> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >> >> >> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they are not >> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 06:59:05 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 06:59:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A friend of mine had another thought - forgo the raises and keep school in session for those 4 days (2 of the 6 days are noninstructional days). One has to wonder where the logic is in negotiating a situation where you get a raise, but then work less and therefore make less money in the end. It seems to me that that's a lose-lose situation: the employees (those who are only getting COLA) lose financially, and the students lose because they're in school fewer days ... Deb Bratland On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > The math is interesting according to the article > Her current salary is $130,000 and after her raise plus the salary > cut imposed by losing school days (I guess they are docking > administrators pay by the equivalent percent as teachers) she will be > paid $129,300 next year. > > Is going from $130,000 to $129,300 a raise or a cut? I guess it > depends on how you define the beginning and end points. > > Katie > > > > On Jul 6, 2010, at 10:40 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > > Here is another article you might be interested in reading: > > http://www.oregonlive.com/forest-grove/index.ssf/2010/06/ > > forest_grove_school_district_administrators_get_cost_of_living_raise.h > > tml > > > > The last four words in the article..... > > > > -Marian > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "David Morelli" > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:57 PM > > To: "grovenet" > > Subject: [Grovenet] Administrators to receive 1.75% pay raise > > > >> The Forest Grove News-Times had an article on the front page that > >> indicated that the School District administrators would be > >> receiving a 1.75% pay raise. > >> > >> I don't recall any comment on GroveNet, unless it was inside the > >> comments about shorter school days. > >> > >> Is their pay raise in line with everyone else's pay raises? > >> Especially since the school day and year are being cut? > >> > >> David > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 7 07:00:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 07:00:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: <4C342E2D.6030608@comcast.net> References: <4C342E2D.6030608@comcast.net> Message-ID: In this weather, the syrup will ferment. Unless you want a bunch of drunken hummingbirds barging around the place, better change the syrup every week or so. When the birds start feeding heavily, they'll empty the feeder before it goes bad. On Jul 7, 2010, at 12:35 AM, K. Bingham wrote: > I have a few questions. My GF has just started to try and attract > hummingbirds, how long can she leave the sugar water in the feeder? > Any > other tips? > > Kristy Gravlin wrote: >> ------ Forwarded Message >> From: Ann H >> Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >> >> >>> >>> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >>> >>> >>> >>> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard >>> of. This >>> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about >>> 20 of them >>> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with >>> sugar water >>> and this is the result. >>> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been >>> studying them >>> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water >>> in it, in her >>> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder >>> they came over >>> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a >>> feather. Abagail >>> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures >>> she would have >>> put on makeup.' >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pretty neat, huh? >>> >>> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures >>> travel through >>> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >>> >>> >>> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they >>> are not >>> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2986 - Release Date: >> 07/06/10 11:36:00 >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Wed Jul 7 07:19:48 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:19:48 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Shock of the Day! I have a political comment to make! Message-ID: I just read that Doug Ainge is running for the House in District 30. I knew Doug about ten years ago when I was volunteering with Banks High, when I sat in on some of his Social Studies classes and also saw him in action around the building. I was most impressed at the way he approached topics and people...setting up a question without giving answers so that the kids had to decide whether they thought things went well or not, and why. He would begin with a statement such as ?Prohibition became the law? (I just made that up, of course...my memory isn?t that good.) Then he would ask whether that worked, whether it was a good choice or a bad choice, what happened because of it, etc., and quietly wait for the discussion to begin. Wheels began to turn and soon a serious discussion was at hand. He didn?t add much...other than the little things of making sure that all comments were honored, that blatantly incorrect ?facts- were corrected, that all of the kids from the most able to the least able got their 2? worth in, that all stayed calm and focused...all without ever putting the speaker down. I?ve never heard better conversations, nor seen kids really think through what another said any better. They, and I, got a lot out of those class periods. I found him quiet but not a push-over. I found him well prepared on the topic so that he could gently guide it well. I found him willing and able to find the nugget of truth in an unusual thought and somehow, unobtrusively, get the kids to recognize it too. All were honored with his respect. And all went home with something to think about that would probably change their lives and philosophies in some way or another. I cannot imagine that he would not be a real asset in the House and hope those in District 30 will vote for him! Kristy From hannah at teleport.com Wed Jul 7 07:22:11 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:22:11 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: <4C342E2D.6030608@comcast.net> Message-ID: There will be lots from this group that loves hummingbirds...but not from me. Lovely as they are...they have feathers and beaks and toenails. iih! (or however you spell that.) But they are pretty and fun to watch from inside the house. Kristy On 7/7/10 2:35 AM, "K. Bingham" wrote: > I have a few questions. My GF has just started to try and attract > hummingbirds, how long can she leave the sugar water in the feeder? Any > other tips? From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 07:26:28 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 07:26:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight In-Reply-To: References: <4C342E2D.6030608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9543B824430240E7B5FAF8691D7EB2EB@GeriPC> That's what I find happens, too, Walt - that usually the feeder is depleted before it goes bad, but if not it should be changed maybe twice a week in the upcoming 'heat wave,' which will be hotter than usual. In the winter, it can remain outdoors for quite a while in nature's fridge . Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 7:00 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Travelogue -- Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight > In this weather, the syrup will ferment. Unless you want a bunch of > drunken hummingbirds barging around the place, better change the > syrup every week or so. When the birds start feeding heavily, they'll > empty the feeder before it goes bad. > > On Jul 7, 2010, at 12:35 AM, K. Bingham wrote: > >> I have a few questions. My GF has just started to try and attract >> hummingbirds, how long can she leave the sugar water in the feeder? >> Any >> other tips? >> >> Kristy Gravlin wrote: >>> ------ Forwarded Message >>> From: Ann H >>> Subject: Fwd: Fw: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Subject: Hummingbird Lane --- a rare sight >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is something I have never seen before, or ever even heard >>>> of. This >>>> woman lives in a Hummingbird fly zone. As they migrated, about >>>> 20 of them >>>> were in her yard. She took the little red dish, filled it with >>>> sugar water >>>> and this is the result. >>>> The woman is Abagail Alfano of Pine, Louisiana - she has been >>>> studying them >>>> daily and one morning put the cup from the feeder, with water >>>> in it, in her >>>> hand; as they had gotten used to her standing by the feeder >>>> they came over >>>> to her hand. She says in touching they are as light as a >>>> feather. Abagail >>>> also said, 'if she had known her husband was taking pictures >>>> she would have >>>> put on makeup.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pretty neat, huh? >>>> >>>> These pictures are amazing. I do hope that the pictures >>>> travel through >>>> cyber space successfully! Send to your Friends and Family ...... >>>> >>>> >>>> Not only amazing that they will go to her hand...but that they >>>> are not >>>> arguing about whose turn it is next. K. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --- >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2986 - Release Date: >>> 07/06/10 11:36:00 >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Jul 7 08:43:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:43:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Shock of the Day! I have a political comment to make! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C853974-0965-4F6D-9829-CE94330C3912@verizon.net> Thanks for the personal observation. It is nice to know a candidate is a good person who values everybody. I think we need more of that. Plus he is not a push-over. I like that too. Katie On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > I just read that Doug Ainge is running for the House in District 30. > > I knew Doug about ten years ago when I was volunteering with Banks > High, > when I sat in on some of his Social Studies classes and also saw > him in > action around the building. > > I was most impressed at the way he approached topics and > people...setting up > a question without giving answers so that the kids had to decide > whether > they thought things went well or not, and why. He would begin with a > statement such as ?Prohibition became the law? (I just made that > up, of > course...my memory isn?t that good.) Then he would ask whether that > worked, > whether it was a good choice or a bad choice, what happened because > of it, > etc., and quietly wait for the discussion to begin. Wheels began to > turn and > soon a serious discussion was at hand. He didn?t add much...other > than the > little things of making sure that all comments were honored, that > blatantly > incorrect ?facts- were corrected, that all of the kids from the > most able to > the least able got their 2? worth in, that all stayed calm and > focused...all > without ever putting the speaker down. I?ve never heard better > conversations, nor seen kids really think through what another said > any > better. They, and I, got a lot out of those class periods. > > I found him quiet but not a push-over. I found him well prepared on > the > topic so that he could gently guide it well. I found him willing > and able to > find the nugget of truth in an unusual thought and somehow, > unobtrusively, > get the kids to recognize it too. All were honored with his > respect. And all > went home with something to think about that would probably change > their > lives and philosophies in some way or another. > > I cannot imagine that he would not be a real asset in the House and > hope > those in District 30 will vote for him! > > Kristy > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Jul 7 09:00:37 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:00:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] oops.. to my surprise Message-ID: <1330-4C34A4A5-3714@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I signed on to see if my web site was shut off, but I guess not, so I'll keep lurking until it is off. I got this from a friend who says this is good one, and this person has a organic cure all spray for roses made from stuff you might already have at hand. My friend it is hell on rust, mill-dew, bugs, and a fertilizer too. I have not tried it yet, but will soon, and because it is already 75* , I've got to get to work outside.. yesterday it was 95 qt 4pm..... Garden Rx ~ Loren Nancarrow ~ Organic Gardening & The Environment -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100707/4fb56dab/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.lorennancarrow.com/ From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 11:45:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 11:45:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] oops.. to my surprise References: <1330-4C34A4A5-3714@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C34CB35.000001.03668@DON-B2514E06367> Hope this works out Alan. We need your steady hand. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 7/7/2010 9:01:20 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] oops.. to my surprise ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! http://www.lorennancarrow.com/ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100707/4d19ee36/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 12:03:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:03:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Lt. General Boykin, US Army Message-ID: <4C34CF73.000008.03668@DON-B2514E06367> Good morning Grovers. My sound card went south yesterday so I couldn't hear what was said on the video, but several friends said it is a must see, yet scary to watch. No violence in the video of course, so relax, and please let me know what the General's message was about. Don, back into the yard for awhile. Thanks for the formula Hoss. Thanks all for all of the good things on this list. http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnPlayer.swf?aid=11991 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100707/aef010e4/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 13:41:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:41:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Attorney General Matter Message-ID: <4C34E66B.000017.03668@DON-B2514E06367> More about the case against the panthers being dismissed, or dropped. Does anyone know what is going on here.? So far I am clueless, though I have checked everywhere I can to find objective data. Don Video: Obama's DOJ Protected Black Panther Who Advocates Killing White Babies By Ed Morrissey, Hot Air When Attorney General Eric Holder suddenly reversed course and had the DoJ dismiss the voter-intimidation case against two New Black Panther Party activists stemming from an incident in 2008 in Philadelphia, many questioned why the DoJ would quit a case it had already won. Attorneys within the DoJ wondered why the federal government had suddenly become disinterested in voter intimidation. Some, like Christian Adams, Asheesh Agarwal, and Mark Corallo have gone public with their outrage, and also wonder where the hell Congress has gone in its duty to oversee the executive branch and its enforcement of laws Congress passed. Well, look, maybe this was just a bad day for the defendants. Maybe they were just nice young men who took civic engagement to a momentary extreme of enthusiasm. They?re probably just nice guys caught in a single instance of bad judgment right? Er, not exactly, as Naked Emperor News and Breitbart?s B-Cast discovers after watching National Geographic: Read More and Comment: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100707/2335f94a/attachment.gif From admin at ronhowden.com Wed Jul 7 22:20:27 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:20:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paint Message-ID: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com> If you have left over paint here is an option for you. http://beaverton.katu.com/content/put-leftover-paint-good-use Ron H. From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Jul 7 23:16:52 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 23:16:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event Message-ID: <1AF0899D-45AE-40B8-9F03-82046CB8D888@verizon.net> I understand that Forest Grove brew will be the sole brew at a Portland eco-event, served by a Forest Grove business, and that entertainment will include a Forest Grove band. And the procedes go charities, including one for trees. You didn't know F.G. has a local brew, other than sharing with the McMinneman Grand Lodge? I guess they do. There are charities for trees? I guess so. We have a local band other than "Big Momma"? Maybe. Since this is third hand info, perhaps the guilty parties should "fess up". Oh, Big Momma and her group put on a great show tonight, including what looked like a gorilla belly dancer. Perhaps someone can fill me in on that. David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 23:35:56 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:35:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Paint References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com> Message-ID: <4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> Old paint can be a problem. Trash collectors in some areas won't take it. So having a local collection point to recycle old paint is for the environment. Speaking of which, if you turn in old florescent tubes and CFL's, Lowes will dispose of them free of charge to customers who buy new units. This is a needed community service to help keep mercury out of the local land fills. Turn in the burned out units to the returns department, just inside the front entry. They can handle tubes up to 8 feet long. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ron Howden Date: 7/7/2010 10:20:52 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Paint If you have left over paint here is an option for you. http://beaverton.katu.com/content/put-leftover-paint-good-use Ron H. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100707/a2cc12f2/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 00:31:51 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 00:31:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] House designs for unusual settings Message-ID: <1AEBD618-3F5C-434F-A567-3E0D53632893@verizon.net> Oh maybe it is something that didn't exactly match the blue prints. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/07/the-craziest-upside-down_n_637570.html#s110416 From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 07:51:52 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 07:51:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] House designs for unusual settings In-Reply-To: <1AEBD618-3F5C-434F-A567-3E0D53632893@verizon.net> References: <1AEBD618-3F5C-434F-A567-3E0D53632893@verizon.net> Message-ID: Wild! : ) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:31 AM To: "grovenet" Subject: [Grovenet] House designs for unusual settings > Oh maybe it is something that didn't exactly match the blue prints. > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/07/the-craziest-upside-down_n_637570.html#s110416 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 07:57:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 07:57:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event In-Reply-To: <1AF0899D-45AE-40B8-9F03-82046CB8D888@verizon.net> References: <1AF0899D-45AE-40B8-9F03-82046CB8D888@verizon.net> Message-ID: <37ABD833-BCE7-4FC7-8F79-36C5C226F28D@teleport.com> The Grove's own brewery, Third Rail Brewing, is moving into the old press building owned by my former employer, Ruralite Magazine (nest to teh post office). WW On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I understand that Forest Grove brew will be the sole brew at a > Portland eco-event, served by a Forest Grove business, and that > entertainment will include a Forest Grove band. And the procedes > go charities, including one for trees. > > You didn't know F.G. has a local brew, other than sharing with the > McMinneman Grand Lodge? I guess they do. > > There are charities for trees? I guess so. > > We have a local band other than "Big Momma"? Maybe. > > Since this is third hand info, perhaps the guilty parties should > "fess up". > > Oh, Big Momma and her group put on a great show tonight, including > what looked like a gorilla belly dancer. Perhaps someone can fill > me in on that. > > David > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 08:01:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:01:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Paint In-Reply-To: <4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com> <4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> Just got a postcard noting that free toxic trash disposal at the B Street Transfer Station will be Saturday, July 24, from 9 to 2. There is always a hellacious lineup, sometimes past the B Street Bridge! But old paint is one of the many nasty things they will accept. They don't do old electronics, unfortunately. WW On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > Old paint can be a problem. Trash collectors in some areas won't > take it. > > So having a local collection point to recycle old paint is for the > environment. > > Speaking of which, if you turn in old florescent tubes and CFL's, > Lowes will > dispose of them free of charge to customers who buy new units. > > This is a needed community service to help keep mercury out of the > local > land fills. > > Turn in the burned out units to the returns department, just inside > the > front entry. They can handle tubes up to 8 feet long. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Ron Howden > Date: 7/7/2010 10:20:52 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: [Grovenet] Paint > > If you have left over paint here is an option for you. > > > > http://beaverton.katu.com/content/put-leftover-paint-good-use > > > > Ron H. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jamsm at aol.com Thu Jul 8 08:47:45 2010 From: jamsm at aol.com (jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:47:45 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Electronics can be recycled at many locations. When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not remember their name or address. I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. http://www.freegeek.org/ Another location for general electronics near FG is: http://www.etechrecycling.com/ For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. The Grouch From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 10:25:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 10:25:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4C360A02.000003.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Good ideas for recycling products that cannot be picked up by the trucks who take our recycling bins and trash/garbage cans. Knowing where to safely get rid of these things gives us the perfect opportunity to help keep our soils, groundwater and environment safe for generations to come. Don -------Original Message------- From: jamsm at aol.com Date: 7/8/2010 8:48:35 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion Electronics can be recycled at many locations. When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not remember their name or address. I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. http://www.freegeek.org/ Another location for general electronics near FG is: http://www.etechrecycling.com/ For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100708/59586201/attachment.gif From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 10:28:43 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 10:28:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com> <4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I have been making art with leftover ACRYLIC house paint and would be happy to have any leftovers in Gawd Awful colors. Greens - Blues - Reds - Oranges - Yellows -not neutrals though... You would be welcome to drop them by my office at 1914 Elm Street. Thanks- Barb 503 349-4043 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:47 AM, wrote: > > Electronics can be recycled at many locations. > When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not > remember their name or address. > > I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! > This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with > the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. > http://www.freegeek.org/ > > Another location for general electronics near FG is: > http://www.etechrecycling.com/ > > > For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are many > good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: > Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. > > > The Grouch > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 10:52:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 10:52:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] House designs for unusual settings References: <1AEBD618-3F5C-434F-A567-3E0D53632893@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C36106D.00000D.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Perhaps built from Chinese plans, but plans read upside down. Kinda like some government programs, not level, unworkable, and no one can comfortably live in or with them. The NASA flip flop fiasco is just one example, but there will be more idiotic ideas to come. Count on that.. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 7/8/2010 12:33:12 AM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] House designs for unusual settings Oh maybe it is something that didn't exactly match the blue prints. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/07/the-craziest-upside-down_n_637570 html#s110416 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100708/235d541a/attachment-0001.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 11:00:15 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:00:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367><7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Grouch. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 8:47 AM To: Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion > > Electronics can be recycled at many locations. > When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not > remember their name or address. > > I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! > This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with > the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. > http://www.freegeek.org/ > > Another location for general electronics near FG is: > http://www.etechrecycling.com/ > > > For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are > many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: > Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. > > > The Grouch > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 11:17:40 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <653015.75278.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> this may have been the Cornelius location you were thinking of http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ Vickie ________________________________ From: "jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 8:47:45 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion Electronics can be recycled at many locations. When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not remember their name or address. I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. http://www.freegeek.org/ Another location for general electronics near FG is: http://www.etechrecycling.com/ For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 8 12:00:48 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:00:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] NEW CARTOON: Who's afraid of the big bad corporations? Message-ID: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> NEW CARTOON: Who's afraid of the big bad corporations? http://blog.seattlepi.com/davidhorsey/archives/213868.asp#extended Posted by David Horsey at July 7, 2010 9:40 p.m. Picture -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 213256 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100708/ae4f837d/attachment.jpe From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 12:20:05 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:20:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <653015.75278.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367><7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com><8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> <653015.75278.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Appreciate it, Vickie. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Vickie Madeoneup" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 11:17 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion > this may have been the Cornelius location you were thinking of > > http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ > > Vickie > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 8:47:45 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion > > > Electronics can be recycled at many locations. > When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not > remember their name or address. > > I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! > This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with > the > defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. > http://www.freegeek.org/ > > Another location for general electronics near FG is: > http://www.etechrecycling.com/ > > > For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are > many good > tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: > Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. > > > The Grouch > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 13:30:22 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:30:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers References: Message-ID: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> FGSD may be getting close to something like this with some of our own elementary schools having half time or less principals. Katie > > Begin forwarded message: >> >> >> ************************** >> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// >> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- >> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers >> ************************** >> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers >> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki >> >> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a >> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations >> and making all pertinent decisions. >> >> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase >> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, >> for instance. >> >> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best >> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the >> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose >> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- >> led schools in Michigan. >> >> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth >> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, >> Denver and Los Angeles. >> >> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of >> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of >> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're >> clamoring to get into this school." >> >> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could >> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of >> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. >> >> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." >> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students >> >> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to >> open in the fall. >> >> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new >> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the teachers. >> >> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. >> >> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the >> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to >> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is >> all about." >> >> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is >> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led >> school for years. >> >> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it >> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, >> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that >> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff >> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. >> >> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. >> >> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher >> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the >> school. >> >> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff >> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, >> without having to go through multiple layers." >> >> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. >> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. >> >> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, >> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led >> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the >> end. >> >> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's >> success and the price that could be paid for failure. >> >> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because >> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We >> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of >> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely >> damaged if we can't make this school a success." >> >> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in >> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating >> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be >> part of the teacher-led school. >> >> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will >> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or >> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. >> >> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara >> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be >> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably >> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative >> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is >> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers >> taking over those duties, as well. >> >> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will >> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each >> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at >> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers >> will rotate the point-person position. >> >> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the >> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley >> said, explaining the desire for the school. >> >> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of >> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and >> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to >> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's >> education and the school. >> >> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. >> >> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a >> success. >> >> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing >> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown >> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, >> Bobb's chief academic adviser. >> >> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is >> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in >> place to ensure it succeeds." >> -------------------------- >> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com >> *************************************** From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 13:36:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:36:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers References: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Have you every heard of 17 principals for one city with one high school? It happened 15 years ago in Anchorage, Alaska. Oil money? Perhaps. But isn't 17 too many even when class sizes are 30 students? Don. -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/8/2010 1:31:15 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers FGSD may be getting close to something like this with some of our own elementary schools having half time or less principals. Katie > > Begin forwarded message: >> >> >> ************************** >> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// >> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- >> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers >> ************************** >> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers >> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki >> >> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a >> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations >> and making all pertinent decisions. >> >> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase >> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, >> for instance. >> >> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best >> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the >> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose >> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- >> led schools in Michigan. >> >> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth >> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, >> Denver and Los Angeles. >> >> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of >> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of >> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're >> clamoring to get into this school." >> >> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could >> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of >> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. >> >> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." >> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students >> >> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to >> open in the fall. >> >> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new >> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the teachers. >> >> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. >> >> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the >> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to >> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is >> all about." >> >> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is >> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led >> school for years. >> >> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it >> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, >> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that >> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff >> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. >> >> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. >> >> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher >> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the >> school. >> >> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff >> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, >> without having to go through multiple layers." >> >> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. >> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. >> >> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, >> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led >> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the >> end. >> >> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's >> success and the price that could be paid for failure. >> >> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because >> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We >> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of >> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely >> damaged if we can't make this school a success." >> >> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in >> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating >> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be >> part of the teacher-led school. >> >> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will >> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or >> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. >> >> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara >> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be >> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably >> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative >> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is >> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers >> taking over those duties, as well. >> >> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will >> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each >> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at >> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers >> will rotate the point-person position. >> >> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the >> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley >> said, explaining the desire for the school. >> >> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of >> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and >> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to >> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's >> education and the school. >> >> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. >> >> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a >> success. >> >> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing >> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown >> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, >> Bobb's chief academic adviser. >> >> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is >> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in >> place to ensure it succeeds." >> -------------------------- >> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com >> *************************************** _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100708/b52546d9/attachment-0001.gif From admin at ronhowden.com Thu Jul 8 13:46:38 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:46:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics In-Reply-To: <4C360A02.000003.03404@DON-B2514E06367> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367> <7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> <4C360A02.000003.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <001b01cb1ede$aa2b2b80$fe818280$@com> The computer recycling place in Cornelius is Computer Drive Connection. It is located on 10th Street in the red buildings on the left just past the railroad tracks. Ron H. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:25 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion Good ideas for recycling products that cannot be picked up by the trucks who take our recycling bins and trash/garbage cans. Knowing where to safely get rid of these things gives us the perfect opportunity to help keep our soils, groundwater and environment safe for generations to come. Don -------Original Message------- From: jamsm at aol.com Date: 7/8/2010 8:48:35 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion Electronics can be recycled at many locations. When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not remember their name or address. I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! This organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. http://www.freegeek.org/ Another location for general electronics near FG is: http://www.etechrecycling.com/ From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 14:01:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 14:01:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event In-Reply-To: <37ABD833-BCE7-4FC7-8F79-36C5C226F28D@teleport.com> References: <1AF0899D-45AE-40B8-9F03-82046CB8D888@verizon.net> <37ABD833-BCE7-4FC7-8F79-36C5C226F28D@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4F290B57-C25B-463A-A01E-B79ADB195E36@verizon.net> Thanks. How did they get chosen for the festival? David On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > The Grove's own brewery, Third Rail Brewing, is moving into the old > press building owned by my former employer, Ruralite Magazine (nest > to teh post office). > WW From hannah at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 14:07:00 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 16:07:00 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: On 7/8/10 3:36 PM, "donkelly" wrote: > Have you every heard of 17 principals for one city with one high school? There are far more schools in a city than one high school. I assume that at least 14 of those people were working in middle and elementary schools...and that some of them were Asst. or Vice-Principals who were there (usually the plan anyway) to deal with kids while the Boss dealt with teachers, the superintendent, the school board, the parents, etc. It is amazing what tasks need to be done to keep a school and its people running smoothly. Kristy From jamsm at aol.com Thu Jul 8 14:07:22 2010 From: jamsm at aol.com (jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:07:22 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <653015.75278.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367><7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com><8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> <653015.75278.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CCECF8B12F7645-3BC-855@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> Yup, that looks like the place ! And note that they take far more than just Computer parts - see list below ! I used to repair electronics and had some old parts that I gave them. Since then, have learned I could have sold the stuff (old radio/TV parts) on eBay! I saw a listing on eBay where a person sold a pile of old resistors, capicitors, coils, transistors! 'Junk' similar to what I had recycled. Luckily I did not give them everything I had. Do you want some old TV/Radio tubes? Maybe you would like some old calculator or early model cash register displays? Before taking your electronic 'junk' to a recycler -- I suggest try selling it on eBay! SOMEONE MAY BUY what you may consider to be junk! Think before you toss that garbage - someone may be looking for it! I mean any kind of 'junk' - not just electronics. It can be broken, someone may just want the parts off of it! Some samples of stuff I have seen sold on eBay.... eBayers are known to buy old cell phones! Cell phones that no longer work are also sold as toys or for parts. Phonographs are popular again. Old amps and stereos - the better stuff - has a high demand too. Car parts are a huge thing on eBay too. Clothing is big business too. This list was taken fom their web site. ITEMS ACCEPTED FOR RECYCLING ? Computer Monitors/Computer Systems ? Hard Disk Drives/Floppy Disk Drives <<< NOTE: they state that they delete data on the hard drives for you ? Printers/Typewriters ? CD Roms/Modems/Networking Devices ? Circuit Boards/Circuit Board Components ? Wire ? Mainframes ? Keyboards/Mice/Power Supplies ? Test Equipment/Point of Sale Equipment ? Aluminum Sheet/Cast or Unclean ? Telephone Equipment/ Cell Phones <<<< NOTE: CELL Phones listed ? Radios/VCRs/Projectors <<<< NOTE: Radios, VCRs, Projectors - suspect they would take any home electronic device ? Inkjet and Toner Cartridges << These items I prefer to return to stores (Staples: $3.00 credit per ink cartridge) But again - I highly recommend trying to sell it on eBay. Atleast research on eBay - you might make a couple (or much more) dollars off your junk. Give that 'junk' new life somewhere before recycling it! The Grouch -----Original Message----- From: Vickie Madeoneup To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion this may have been the Cornelius location you were thinking of http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ Vickie _______________________________ rom: "jamsm at aol.com" o: grovenet at rdrop.com ent: Thu, July 8, 2010 8:47:45 AM ubject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion lectronics can be recycled at many locations. hen I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I do not emember their name or address. I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this location! his organization, I believe was started by people that were involved with the efunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. ttp://www.freegeek.org/ Another location for general electronics near FG is: ttp://www.etechrecycling.com/ or those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there are many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: heck out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. he Grouch ______________________________________________ roveNet mailing list roveNet at rdrop.com ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ______________________________________________ roveNet mailing list roveNet at rdrop.com ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 14:10:06 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 16:10:06 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] FW: Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dang! We apparently did not use the current "buzz word." This sounds a lot like the place we worked all those years! A place "administration" assumed we had brains and that we wanted to do the best for the kids. And let us go at it! My only concern is that some teachers are going to be mightily surprised to find out what the principal and other support persons have been doing for them all this time. Near the bottom it talks about a "building administrator" being hired...semantics, perhaps?!! I wonder what they think the difference between a principal and a building administrator is? But the teachers need to be able to devote their time to classroom needs, not doing all that "angry mother" stopping...or "arranging for an event"...or coordinating whole school assemblies...or filling out forms for the Main Office...or such. Things that both Bob, and then Betty, and sometimes Ginger and MAT, always did for us so that we could...TEACH! >> ************************** >> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// >> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- >> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers >> ************************** >> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers >> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki >> >> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a >> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations >> and making all pertinent decisions. >> >> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase >> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, >> for instance. >> >> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best >> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the >> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose >> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- >> led schools in Michigan. >> >> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth >> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, >> Denver and Los Angeles. >> >> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of >> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of >> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're >> clamoring to get into this school." >> >> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could >> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of >> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. >> >> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." >> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students >> >> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to >> open in the fall. >> >> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new >> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the teachers. >> >> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. >> >> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the >> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to >> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is >> all about." >> >> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is >> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led >> school for years. >> >> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it >> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, >> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that >> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff >> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. >> >> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. >> >> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher >> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the >> school. >> >> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff >> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, >> without having to go through multiple layers." >> >> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. >> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. >> >> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, >> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led >> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the >> end. >> >> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's >> success and the price that could be paid for failure. >> >> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because >> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We >> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of >> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely >> damaged if we can't make this school a success." >> >> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in >> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating >> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be >> part of the teacher-led school. >> >> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will >> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or >> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. >> >> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara >> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be >> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably >> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative >> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is >> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers >> taking over those duties, as well. >> >> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will >> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each >> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at >> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers >> will rotate the point-person position. >> >> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the >> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley >> said, explaining the desire for the school. >> >> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of >> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and >> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to >> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's >> education and the school. >> >> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. >> >> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a >> success. >> >> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing >> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown >> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, >> Bobb's chief academic adviser. >> >> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is >> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in >> place to ensure it succeeds." >> -------------------------- >> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com >> *************************************** ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 14:14:37 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 14:14:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> References: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2B734F06-F5D1-4BAE-A9F1-A8AC04BEB810@verizon.net> How many elementary and middle high schools did they have? How many were vice principals? Did they have other duties like curriculum development but they were just called principals? Can't decide if 17 is extravagant or reasonable without more information... Example: FG has 7 elementary schools, one upper elementary, one middle school, and one huge huge high school. If there is one principal for each elementary, two principals for upper elem and mid school, and 3 for the high school, that is a total of 14. All it would take would be for said Alaskan town to have one more middle school or a vice principal at one or two elementary schools, then they could easily get up to 17 principals for a town with one high school and it might be very reasonable depending on their other duties. Class sizes may be 30 students but you don't say how many total students there were. Oil money? Perhaps. Perhaps it was reasonable given other factors. In some schools the principals also teach a class or two depending on the work load and they don't really get paid a lot extra. Is 17 too many? Answer - it depends. Katie On Jul 8, 2010, at 1:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Have you every heard of 17 principals for one city with one high > school? > > > > It happened 15 years ago in Anchorage, Alaska. > > > > Oil money? Perhaps. But isn't 17 too many even when class sizes are 30 > students? > > > > Don. > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Katie Allnutt > > Date: 7/8/2010 1:31:15 PM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers > > > > FGSD may be getting close to something like this with some of our own > > elementary schools having half time or less principals. > > > > Katie > > > >> > >> Begin forwarded message: > >>> > >>> > >>> ************************** > >>> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// > >>> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- > >>> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers > >>> ************************** > >>> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers > >>> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki > >>> > >>> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a > >>> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations > >>> and making all pertinent decisions. > >>> > >>> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase > >>> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, > >>> for instance. > >>> > >>> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best > >>> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the > >>> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose > >>> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- > >>> led schools in Michigan. > >>> > >>> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth > >>> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, > >>> Denver and Los Angeles. > >>> > >>> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of > >>> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of > >>> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're > >>> clamoring to get into this school." > >>> > >>> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could > >>> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of > >>> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. > >>> > >>> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." > >>> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students > >>> > >>> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to > >>> open in the fall. > >>> > >>> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new > >>> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the >>> teachers. > >>> > >>> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. > >>> > >>> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the > >>> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to > >>> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is > >>> all about." > >>> > >>> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is > >>> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led > >>> school for years. > >>> > >>> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it > >>> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, > >>> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that > >>> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff > >>> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. > >>> > >>> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. > >>> > >>> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher > >>> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the > >>> school. > >>> > >>> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff > >>> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, > >>> without having to go through multiple layers." > >>> > >>> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. > >>> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. > >>> > >>> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, > >>> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led > >>> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the > >>> end. > >>> > >>> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's > >>> success and the price that could be paid for failure. > >>> > >>> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because > >>> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We > >>> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of > >>> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely > >>> damaged if we can't make this school a success." > >>> > >>> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in > >>> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating > >>> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be > >>> part of the teacher-led school. > >>> > >>> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will > >>> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or > >>> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. > >>> > >>> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara > >>> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be > >>> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably > >>> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative > >>> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is > >>> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers > >>> taking over those duties, as well. > >>> > >>> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will > >>> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each > >>> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at > >>> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers > >>> will rotate the point-person position. > >>> > >>> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the > >>> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley > >>> said, explaining the desire for the school. > >>> > >>> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of > >>> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and > >>> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to > >>> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's > >>> education and the school. > >>> > >>> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. > >>> > >>> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a > >>> success. > >>> > >>> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing > >>> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown > >>> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, > >>> Bobb's chief academic adviser. > >>> > >>> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is > >>> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in > >>> place to ensure it succeeds." > >>> -------------------------- > >>> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com > >>> *************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From thedoormaker at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:17:03 2010 From: thedoormaker at yahoo.com (Jarrod Sherwood) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event Message-ID: <201740.43836.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ecopalooza 2010 at Fernhill Park in Portland on August 7 - details at econw.org -?with proceeds going to Minority Information Outreach and Friends of Trees.? Forest Grove will be strongly represented at this event! The exclusive microbrew at the?festival?will be from Off The Rail, our local brewery, and the beer garden, along with food,?will be run by Grendel's Restaurant & Bar and Ballad Town Billiards. The Beatles tribute band Revolver rounds out the music selection for the event. Off The Rail makes a fine brew (in this humble publican's opinion) and is available at Cornerstone, Grendel's, Pizza Schmizza, and Prime Time.? Brewed in the German Tradition of adding nothing but water, barley, hops, and yeast, OTR is about as traditional as it gets.? My intentions are to devote a fair amount of space in the large beer/food garden to promoting Forest Grove and?what we have out here. We have support from our Chamber and?are counting on their experience to help create an effective means of promotion.?Any creative ideas are certainly welcome, contact me?on grovenet,?directly at?thedoormaker at yahoo.com, or at Grendel's.? Jarrod. ?? I understand that Forest Grove brew will be the sole brew at a Portland eco-event, served by a Forest Grove business, and that entertainment will include a Forest Grove band.? And the procedes go charities, including one for trees. You didn't know F.G. has a local brew, other than sharing with the McMinneman Grand Lodge?? I guess they do. There are charities for trees?? I guess so. We have a local band other than "Big Momma"?? Maybe. Since this is third hand info, perhaps the guilty parties should "fess up". Oh, Big Momma and her group put on a great show tonight, including what looked like a gorilla belly dancer.? Perhaps someone can fill me in on that. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ________________________________ From: David Morelli To: grovenet Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 11:16:52 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event From debbratland at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 14:39:25 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:39:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> References: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> Message-ID: When I went to Elementary School in Minnesota, my 6th grade teacher was the principal of our school and our fulltime teacher. Our school had about 120 students in it. It worked just fine, as far as I know. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > FGSD may be getting close to something like this with some of our own > elementary schools having half time or less principals. > > Katie > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> > >> ************************** > >> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// > >> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- > >> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers > >> ************************** > >> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers > >> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki > >> > >> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a > >> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations > >> and making all pertinent decisions. > >> > >> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase > >> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, > >> for instance. > >> > >> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best > >> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the > >> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose > >> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- > >> led schools in Michigan. > >> > >> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth > >> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, > >> Denver and Los Angeles. > >> > >> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of > >> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of > >> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're > >> clamoring to get into this school." > >> > >> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could > >> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of > >> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. > >> > >> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." > >> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students > >> > >> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to > >> open in the fall. > >> > >> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new > >> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the teachers. > >> > >> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. > >> > >> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the > >> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to > >> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is > >> all about." > >> > >> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is > >> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led > >> school for years. > >> > >> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it > >> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, > >> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that > >> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff > >> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. > >> > >> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. > >> > >> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher > >> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the > >> school. > >> > >> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff > >> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, > >> without having to go through multiple layers." > >> > >> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. > >> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. > >> > >> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, > >> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led > >> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the > >> end. > >> > >> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's > >> success and the price that could be paid for failure. > >> > >> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because > >> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We > >> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of > >> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely > >> damaged if we can't make this school a success." > >> > >> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in > >> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating > >> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be > >> part of the teacher-led school. > >> > >> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will > >> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or > >> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. > >> > >> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara > >> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be > >> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably > >> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative > >> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is > >> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers > >> taking over those duties, as well. > >> > >> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will > >> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each > >> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at > >> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers > >> will rotate the point-person position. > >> > >> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the > >> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley > >> said, explaining the desire for the school. > >> > >> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of > >> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and > >> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to > >> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's > >> education and the school. > >> > >> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. > >> > >> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a > >> success. > >> > >> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing > >> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown > >> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, > >> Bobb's chief academic adviser. > >> > >> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is > >> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in > >> place to ensure it succeeds." > >> -------------------------- > >> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com > >> *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 14:43:09 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:43:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> References: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Hi Don - My oldest son was in the Anchorage school district 20 years ago and we certainly had more than one high school in Anchorage. Anchorage has had more than one high school at least since my husband went to school there in the 60's. Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Have you every heard of 17 principals for one city with one high school? > > It happened 15 years ago in Anchorage, Alaska. > > Oil money? Perhaps. But isn't 17 too many even when class sizes are 30 > students? > > Don. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 7/8/2010 1:31:15 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers > > FGSD may be getting close to something like this with some of our own > elementary schools having half time or less principals. > > Katie > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> > >> ************************** > >> From the Detroit Free Press, Thursday, July 8, 2010. See http:// > >> www.freep.com/article/20100708/NEWS01/7080367/Detroit-Public- > >> Schools-tries-something-new-A-school-run-by-teachers > >> ************************** > >> Detroit Public Schools tries something new: A school run by teachers > >> By Peggy Walsh-Sarnecki > >> > >> Detroit Public Schools is set to open its first school without a > >> principal -- teachers will be running the day-to-day operations > >> and making all pertinent decisions. > >> > >> They won't have to wait for the central office's OK to purchase > >> needed items or increase their emphasis on fractions or writing, > >> for instance. > >> > >> Founded on the belief that those within the building know best > >> what their students need, Barbara Jordan Elementary will be the > >> district's first teacher-led school, open only to students whose > >> parents agree to be involved. State officials know of no teacher- > >> led schools in Michigan. > >> > >> The Detroit school, for students in kindergarten through fourth > >> grade, is modeled after teacher-led schools in Boston, Milwaukee, > >> Denver and Los Angeles. > >> > >> It's too early to know test results, said Michael McLaughlin of > >> the Boston Teachers Union School. But he can name one indicator of > >> the Boston school's success: "The families in the area, they're > >> clamoring to get into this school." > >> > >> In Detroit, the high-profile experiment in school reform could > >> have long-reaching implications, said Keith Johnson, president of > >> the Detroit Federation of Teachers. > >> > >> "It's an unprecedented opportunity," Johnson said. "We cannot fail." > >> Less bureaucracy at school could make it easier to educate students > >> > >> Summer has barely begun, but Ann Crowley can't wait for school to > >> open in the fall. > >> > >> The 22-year veteran teacher and administrator is part of a new > >> experiment in Detroit Public Schools -- a school run by the teachers. > >> > >> Her enthusiasm is obvious and contagious. > >> > >> "I returned to the classroom to better meet the needs of the > >> children, right at the ground level," said Crowley, who expects to > >> teach at Barbara Jordan Elementary. "That's what this school is > >> all about." > >> > >> She's part of a DPS group called Detroit Children First, which is > >> made up mostly of teachers. It has been asking for a teacher-led > >> school for years. > >> > >> With the backing of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, it > >> convinced the district's emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, > >> to let it run a school that bypasses layers of bureaucracy that > >> can often slow decision-making. It is a school where the staff > >> makes all the decisions, from lessons to hiring to building repairs. > >> > >> It is believed to be the first teacher-led school in the state. > >> > >> The hope is to "cut out the middle man," said Kim Kyff, a teacher > >> with more than 20 years' experience who also hopes to teach at the > >> school. > >> > >> Without bureaucracy, "there's more direct communication," Kyff > >> said. "You are able to more readily implement and make changes, > >> without having to go through multiple layers." > >> > >> Increased responsibility will come with that increased autonomy. > >> The school's success will rest on teachers' shoulders. > >> > >> "Teachers here do not fear accountability," Crowley said. In fact, > >> some had offered to surrender tenure in exchange for a teacher-led > >> school -- a sacrifice the district didn't ask them to make in the > >> end. > >> > >> DFT President Keith Johnson knows the importance of the school's > >> success and the price that could be paid for failure. > >> > >> "I'm excited about it, but I'm also cautiously optimistic, because > >> we've got to make sure that we do it right," Johnson said. "We > >> cannot let the school crash and burn. I think the perception of > >> teachers as effective educational leaders would be severely > >> damaged if we can't make this school a success." > >> > >> Detroit's teacher-led school initially will be for students in > >> kindergarten through fourth grade, with a middle school operating > >> in an adjacent building. Eventually, the entire K-8 campus will be > >> part of the teacher-led school. > >> > >> The school, which will be funded like any other DPS school, will > >> have an extended day, with enrichment programs such as music or > >> art after lesson hours, and a longer school year. > >> > >> This first year, the DFT will hire the teachers, but Barbara > >> Jordan teachers will eventually take over that task. There will be > >> no principal. There will be a building administrator, probably > >> with experience as a principal, to handle the administrative > >> duties that teachers aren't familiar with. That position is > >> expected to be phased out in about three years, with teachers > >> taking over those duties, as well. > >> > >> School governance will come from teacher committees. Teachers will > >> meet in small groups to make decisions for their students. Each > >> small group will choose a point person to represent the group at > >> meetings of point people from the rest of the building. Teachers > >> will rotate the point-person position. > >> > >> "The teachers just did not have a lot of leverage in meeting the > >> needs of the children that were sitting in front of them," Crowley > >> said, explaining the desire for the school. > >> > >> They hope to change that. The school is envisioned as a model of > >> democracy, with every employee having a say in how it's run and > >> parents as important participants. In fact, parents will have to > >> sign a contract promising to be involved in their child's > >> education and the school. > >> > >> Admission will be based on the parent's willingness to participate. > >> > >> DPS officials said it's up to the teachers to make this school a > >> success. > >> > >> The federal No Child Left Behind law "requires that failing > >> schools face sanctions, up to and including closure. We have shown > >> that we will close failing schools," said Barbara Byrd Bennett, > >> Bobb's chief academic adviser. > >> > >> "That said, nobody intends for this school to fail. Everyone is > >> committed to making it a success, and interventions will be put in > >> place to ensure it succeeds." > >> -------------------------- > >> Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI: mmwalsh at freepress.com > >> *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 17:47:08 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 17:47:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367><7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com> <8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <963ED045-FC7A-44D7-93EE-8B432C8881C2@teleport.com> The place in Cornelius is especially good because they also offer secondhand equipment, cables and peripherals at very reasonable prices. I'm still using a very nice monitor I got there more than five years ago! Can't remember the name or address either, however. But you have to pay to drop off computers and such, and they pack them up on huge pallets for shipment "overseas," which makes me uneasy. They might be going to that pesthole in China, where people have been burning off plastics, resins and heavy metals for years, to recover the copper and trace amounts of gold in defunct computers. I'm sure the soil and water in that part of China, and the air that moves on to the rest of us, is laden with poisonous pollutants. On Jul 8, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Geri Steele wrote: > Thank you, Grouch. > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 8:47 AM > To: > Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion > >> >> Electronics can be recycled at many locations. >> When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I >> do not >> remember their name or address. >> >> I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this >> location! >> This organization, I believe was started by people that were >> involved with >> the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. >> http://www.freegeek.org/ >> >> Another location for general electronics near FG is: >> http://www.etechrecycling.com/ >> >> >> For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there >> are >> many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: >> Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. >> >> >> The Grouch >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 17:52:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 17:52:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event In-Reply-To: <4F290B57-C25B-463A-A01E-B79ADB195E36@verizon.net> References: <1AF0899D-45AE-40B8-9F03-82046CB8D888@verizon.net> <37ABD833-BCE7-4FC7-8F79-36C5C226F28D@teleport.com> <4F290B57-C25B-463A-A01E-B79ADB195E36@verizon.net> Message-ID: Damfino. WW On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:01 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Thanks. > > How did they get chosen for the festival? > > David > > On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> The Grove's own brewery, Third Rail Brewing, is moving into the old >> press building owned by my former employer, Ruralite Magazine (nest >> to teh post office). >> WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 18:54:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 18:54:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event In-Reply-To: <201740.43836.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201740.43836.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Will you be serving the usual hamburgers and hot dogs, or are you going to offer things like gaspacio, pastys and that crispy fried cheese & bacon over potatoes? David On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Jarrod Sherwood wrote: > Ecopalooza 2010 at Fernhill Park in Portland on August 7 - details at econw.org - with proceeds going to Minority Information Outreach and Friends of Trees. Forest Grove will be strongly represented at this event! The exclusive microbrew at the festival will be from Off The Rail, our local brewery, and the beer garden, along with food, will be run by Grendel's Restaurant & Bar and Ballad Town Billiards. The Beatles tribute band Revolver rounds out the music selection for the event. > > Off The Rail makes a fine brew (in this humble publican's opinion) and is available at Cornerstone, Grendel's, Pizza Schmizza, and Prime Time. Brewed in the German Tradition of adding nothing but water, barley, hops, and yeast, OTR is about as traditional as it gets. > > > My intentions are to devote a fair amount of space in the large beer/food garden to promoting Forest Grove and what we have out here. We have support from our Chamber and are counting on their experience to help create an effective means of promotion. Any creative ideas are certainly welcome, contact me on grovenet, directly at thedoormaker at yahoo.com, or at Grendel's. > > Jarrod. From thedoormaker at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 19:28:14 2010 From: thedoormaker at yahoo.com (thedoormaker at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 02:28:14 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event In-Reply-To: References: <201740.43836.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1521161608-1278642515-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1656548553-@bda959.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We will have chicken, pork, and vegetarian wraps as well as fresh gazpacho. Definitely not doing the hamburger/hotdog menu - don't want to show 4k people that this is what Forest Grove offers an event of this size! Won't have an oven so traditional pastys and potatoes would be tough. Would like feedback on what would be a tasty menu item in August. Maybe an iced soup? Thanks! Jarrod. Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect -----Original Message----- From: David Morelli Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 18:54:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event Will you be serving the usual hamburgers and hot dogs, or are you going to offer things like gaspacio, pastys and that crispy fried cheese & bacon over potatoes? David On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Jarrod Sherwood wrote: > Ecopalooza 2010 at Fernhill Park in Portland on August 7 - details at econw.org - with proceeds going to Minority Information Outreach and Friends of Trees. Forest Grove will be strongly represented at this event! The exclusive microbrew at the festival will be from Off The Rail, our local brewery, and the beer garden, along with food, will be run by Grendel's Restaurant & Bar and Ballad Town Billiards. The Beatles tribute band Revolver rounds out the music selection for the event. > > Off The Rail makes a fine brew (in this humble publican's opinion) and is available at Cornerstone, Grendel's, Pizza Schmizza, and Prime Time. Brewed in the German Tradition of adding nothing but water, barley, hops, and yeast, OTR is about as traditional as it gets. > > > My intentions are to devote a fair amount of space in the large beer/food garden to promoting Forest Grove and what we have out here. We have support from our Chamber and are counting on their experience to help create an effective means of promotion. Any creative ideas are certainly welcome, contact me on grovenet, directly at thedoormaker at yahoo.com, or at Grendel's. > > Jarrod. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 19:39:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:39:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event References: <201740.43836.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1521161608-1278642515-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1656548553-@bda959.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C368BD4.000011.02728@DON-B2514E06367> Fruit salud with mixed fruits with grapes and walnuts from here, topped with whipped cream. Cauliflower with a hot yellow Tillamook cheese sauce topping. Don -------Original Message------- From: thedoormaker at yahoo.com Date: 7/8/2010 7:28:55 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event We will have chicken, pork, and vegetarian wraps as well as fresh gazpacho. Definitely not doing the hamburger/hotdog menu - don't want to show 4k people that this is what Forest Grove offers an event of this size! Won't have an oven so traditional pastys and potatoes would be tough. Would like feedback on what would be a tasty menu item in August. Maybe an iced soup? Thanks! Jarrod. Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect -----Original Message----- From: David Morelli Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 18:54:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove is represented in Portland event Will you be serving the usual hamburgers and hot dogs, or are you going to offer things like gaspacio, pastys and that crispy fried cheese & bacon over potatoes? David On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Jarrod Sherwood wrote: > Ecopalooza 2010 at Fernhill Park in Portland on August 7 - details at econw.org - with proceeds going to Minority Information Outreach and Friends of Trees. Forest Grove will be strongly represented at this event! The exclusive microbrew at the festival will be from Off The Rail, our local brewery, and the beer garden, along with food, will be run by Grendel's Restaurant & Bar and Ballad Town Billiards. The Beatles tribute band Revolver rounds out the music selection for the event. > > Off The Rail makes a fine brew (in this humble publican's opinion) and is available at Cornerstone, Grendel's, Pizza Schmizza, and Prime Time. Brewed in the German Tradition of adding nothing but water, barley, hops, and yeast OTR is about as traditional as it gets. > > > My intentions are to devote a fair amount of space in the large beer/food garden to promoting Forest Grove and what we have out here. We have support from our Chamber and are counting on their experience to help create an effective means of promotion. Any creative ideas are certainly welcome, contact me on grovenet, directly at thedoormaker at yahoo.com, or at Grendel's. > > Jarrod. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100708/7ef0fd72/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 8 19:45:33 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:45:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Detroit: Something new - sch. run by teachers In-Reply-To: <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> References: <55466BAD-DA7E-48BB-963E-9641A8030DEB@verizon.net> <4C3636C6.000044.03404@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <018001cb1f10$ced64dc0$6c82e940$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Have you every heard of 17 principals for one city with > one high school? > > It happened 15 years ago in Anchorage, Alaska. Nope, but then again, I haven't heard of one city the size of Anchorage, AK (250k in 1995 - http://tinyurl.com/35rd2xa) having just one high school either. You'd probably be shocked to find out how many principals they have now. There are currently 8 high schools serving the Anchorage School District. http://www.asdk12.org/schoollist.asp?level=HIG --------------- Bartlett -- 2,000 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/bartlett/pages/missionandprofile.htm 1 principal and 4 assistant principals http://www.asdk12.org/schools/bartlett/pages/administration.htm --------------- Chugiak -- no enrollment figures 4 principals with varying tasks http://www.asdk12.org/schools/chugiak/pages/html%20pages/Departments/Adminis tration.htm --------------- A.J. Dimond -- 2,000 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/dimond/pages/aboutdhs.html 1 principal and 4 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/dimond/pages/administration.html --------------- Eagle River -- 900 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/eagleriverhighschool/pages/school/about.html 1 principal and 2 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/eagleriverhighschool/pages/staff/administrator s.html --------------- East -- 2,300 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/east/pages/SchoolProfile.html 1 principal and 4 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/east/pages/Administrators.html --------------- Robert Service -- 1,700 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/service/pages/Information/Campus%20Information .htm 1 principal and 4 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/service/pages/Information/staff.htm --------------- South -- no enrollment figures 1 principal and 4 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/south/pages/i_Staff.htm#admin --------------- West -- 1,800 students http://www.asdk12.org/schools/west/pages/NewWest/Information/Profile/WestPro file.pdf 1 principal and 4 assistants http://www.asdk12.org/schools/west/pages/NewWest/Academics/Departments.html Depending on what you're counting, the Anchorage School Districts high schools have either 8 principals or 37 principals. They may sound like a lot, but those 37 are responsible for schools educating at least 14,000 students. Seeing that the population is 280k now vs 250k in 1995, I'm sure the number of high schools and high school students wasn't much different. Jeff From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 20:38:22 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:38:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion In-Reply-To: <963ED045-FC7A-44D7-93EE-8B432C8881C2@teleport.com> References: <012501cb1e5d$478213d0$d6863b70$@com><4C3571BA.000011.03192@DON-B2514E06367><7E6A267B-C8C9-4941-A218-305F668FD5A7@teleport.com><8CCECCC0AA15255-111C-A16D@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> <963ED045-FC7A-44D7-93EE-8B432C8881C2@teleport.com> Message-ID: Hmmmmm, Walt ~ or anyone else ~ if you hear any more, let us know! Geri i-------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 5:47 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion > The place in Cornelius is especially good because they also offer > secondhand equipment, cables and peripherals at very reasonable > prices. I'm still using a very nice monitor I got there more than > five years ago! Can't remember the name or address either, however. > But you have to pay to drop off computers and such, and they pack > them up on huge pallets for shipment "overseas," which makes me > uneasy. They might be going to that pesthole in China, where people > have been burning off plastics, resins and heavy metals for years, to > recover the copper and trace amounts of gold in defunct computers. > I'm sure the soil and water in that part of China, and the air that > moves on to the rest of us, is laden with poisonous pollutants. > On Jul 8, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> Thank you, Grouch. >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: >> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 8:47 AM >> To: >> Subject: [Grovenet] Recycle electronics / web based email suggestion >> >>> >>> Electronics can be recycled at many locations. >>> When I left FG there was a recycler located in Cornelius - sorry I >>> do not >>> remember their name or address. >>> >>> I would highly recommend that computer gear to be taken to this >>> location! >>> This organization, I believe was started by people that were >>> involved with >>> the defunct "Computer Bits" mag that used to be produced in FG. >>> http://www.freegeek.org/ >>> >>> Another location for general electronics near FG is: >>> http://www.etechrecycling.com/ >>> >>> >>> For those that need ideas of how to save web based email --- there >>> are >>> many good tools that allow for handling multiple email accounts: >>> Check out Mozilla Thunderbird - the same group that produces Firefox. >>> >>> >>> The Grouch >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From hannah at teleport.com Thu Jul 8 20:46:06 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:46:06 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] about Teacher:Student ratios Message-ID: Something that most people do not know is how the teacher-to-student ratio is usually determined. When Portland public offers such a ratio they take the total number of students in the building, and divide it by the total number of adults in the building... 500 kids / 27 adults = 18.5 kids per adult. A classroom with 18 or 19 kids in it sounds pretty good! However...remember that ?kids? include ordinary kids, special ed kids who are being mainstreamed, special ed kids who have not been identified as yet and so are getting no special help from the special ed department, non-English speaking kids, emotionally not-quite-stable kids, physically handicapped kids, emotionally disturbed kids, super bright kids, and who knows what else... any of these categories means a child with that situation takes more work than ?a kid?... and...... The adults are all the teachers, and the secretary[ies], and the custodian[s], and the p.e. teacher, and the librarian, and the music teacher, and the computer teacher, and the speech pathologist, and the principal, and the vice principal...and any other adult who is there, employed by the District, whether or not they ever work with a child. BUT to the classroom teacher, most of the day, and most of the days, there is only one teacher working with the kids enrolled in the classroom...so it counts up to at least 30 full desks in the room. Only one teacher who is responsible for the famous 3Rs plus science and social studies...and whatever else the District decides should be taught that year. First year teachers soon learn that when the District advertises a class size of 18...it is very misleading. There are often 30+ kids for whom s/he is responsible. Most of the public do not realize that there are not 18 cherubs in that first grade. Unless they go to school to volunteer to help out the teacher...they just never think about it again. From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 8 21:04:46 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 21:04:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] about Teacher:Student ratios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D112AC6-7CB1-4C11-9A3E-BBD6959FCA7F@verizon.net> Thanks Kristy, The details tend to get lost a lot of times. Katie On Jul 8, 2010, at 8:46 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > > Something that most people do not know is how the teacher-to- > student ratio > is usually determined. > When Portland public offers such a ratio they take the total number of > students in the building, and divide it by the total number of > adults in the > building... > > 500 kids / 27 adults = 18.5 kids per adult. > > A classroom with 18 or 19 kids in it sounds pretty good! > > However...remember that ?kids? include ordinary kids, special ed > kids who > are being mainstreamed, > special ed kids who have not been identified as yet > and so > are getting no special help from > the special ed department, non-English speaking kids, > emotionally not-quite-stable kids, > physically handicapped kids, emotionally disturbed > kids, > super bright kids, and who knows > what else... any of these categories means a child > with that > situation takes more work than > ?a kid?... > > and...... The adults are all the teachers, and the secretary > [ies], and > the custodian[s], and the p.e. > teacher, and the librarian, and the music teacher, > and the > computer teacher, and the speech > pathologist, and the principal, and the vice > principal...and > any other adult who is there, > employed by the District, whether or not they ever > work with > a child. > > BUT to the classroom teacher, most of the day, and > most of > the days, there is only one > teacher working with the kids enrolled in the > classroom...so > it counts up to at least 30 full > desks in the room. Only one teacher who is > responsible for > the famous 3Rs plus science and > social studies...and whatever else the District > decides > should be taught that year. > > First year teachers soon learn that when the District advertises a > class > size of 18...it is very misleading. There are often 30+ kids for > whom s/he > is responsible. > > Most of the public do not realize that there are not 18 cherubs in > that > first grade. Unless they go to school to volunteer to help out the > teacher...they just never think about it again. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 8 21:28:56 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 21:28:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] about Teacher:Student ratios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ed01cb1f1f$3f859f40$be90ddc0$@com> Kristy, > From: Kristy Gravlin > > Something that most people do not know is how the > teacher-to-student ratio is usually determined. > When Portland public offers such a ratio they take > the total number of students in the building, and > divide it by the total number of adults in the > building... Not all schools do it that way. Take Harvey Clarke, for example. It has an average of 22 students for every teacher. http://www.city-data.com/school/harvey-clarke-elementary-school-or.html Student Enrollment: 453 Number of Teachers: 19* * (only listed those that had a grade number associated) Kindergarten Students: 94 Teachers: 2 (students are half day) Average: 23.5 1st Grade Students: 102 Teachers: 5 Average: 20.4 2nd Grade Students: 85 Teachers: 4 Average: 21.25 3rd Grade Students: 102 Teachers: 4 Average: 25.5 4th Grade Students: 70 Teachers: 4 Average: 17.5 Now, take Reynolds High School in Portland. http://www.city-data.com/school/reynolds-high-school-or.html Student Enrollment: 2827 9th Grade: 843 10th Grade: 782 11th Grade: 711 12th Grade: 491 Teachers: 132.4 * * Full Time Equivalent Average: 21.35 students/teacher It's obviously much more difficult to calculate high school student/teacher ratios in high school (compared to elementary school) as you have to then qualify which classes qualify and which ones don't. However, I don't think your argument about the underhanded calculation is quite on the mark. Jeff From debbratland at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 21:33:42 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 21:33:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] about Teacher:Student ratios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The FGSD publishes the actual numbers in the classrooms in its enrollment report, which is occasionally made part of the board minutes. Here's one from this past year: http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=0459c8fe8fea3ac5eb1098aadeccdfdf Go to pages 93 and 94. So anyone can see exactly how many teachers (not janitors, secretaries, etc.) are in a school, and how many students each of those teachers have (up through 6th grade). The 2nd page lists the teacher to student ratios, including the middle and high schools, and I believe those are real certified teachers, not aides, cooks, janitors, etc. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > > Something that most people do not know is how the teacher-to-student ratio > is usually determined. > When Portland public offers such a ratio they take the total number of > students in the building, and divide it by the total number of adults in > the > building... > > 500 kids / 27 adults = 18.5 kids per adult. > > A classroom with 18 or 19 kids in it sounds pretty good! > > However...remember that ?kids? include ordinary kids, special ed kids who > are being mainstreamed, > special ed kids who have not been identified as yet and so > are getting no special help from > the special ed department, non-English speaking kids, > emotionally not-quite-stable kids, > physically handicapped kids, emotionally disturbed kids, > super bright kids, and who knows > what else... any of these categories means a child with that > situation takes more work than > ?a kid?... > > and...... The adults are all the teachers, and the secretary[ies], and > the custodian[s], and the p.e. > teacher, and the librarian, and the music teacher, and the > computer teacher, and the speech > pathologist, and the principal, and the vice principal...and > any other adult who is there, > employed by the District, whether or not they ever work with > a child. > > BUT to the classroom teacher, most of the day, and most of > the days, there is only one > teacher working with the kids enrolled in the classroom...so > it counts up to at least 30 full > desks in the room. Only one teacher who is responsible for > the famous 3Rs plus science and > social studies...and whatever else the District decides > should be taught that year. > > First year teachers soon learn that when the District advertises a class > size of 18...it is very misleading. There are often 30+ kids for whom s/he > is responsible. > > Most of the public do not realize that there are not 18 cherubs in that > first grade. Unless they go to school to volunteer to help out the > teacher...they just never think about it again. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 01:46:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:46:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Message-ID: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. Now someone tell me this did not happen, or at least attempt to explain it away. Don The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about his stance on the American Flag. General Bill Ginn' USAF (ret.) asked Obama to explain WHY he doesn't follow protocol when the National Anthem is played. The General stated to Obama that according to the United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171.. During rendition of the national anthem, when the flag is displayed, all present (except those in uniform) are expected to stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Or, at the very least, "Stand and Face It". NOW GET THIS!! - - - - - 'Senator' Obama replied: "As I've said about the flag pin, I don't want to be perceived as taking sides". "There are a lot of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol of oppression.." "The anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs bursting in air and all that sort of thing." (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS???) Obama continued: "The National Anthem should be 'swapped' for something less parochial and less bellicose. I like the song 'I'd Like To Teach the World To Sing'. If that were our anthem, then, I might salute it. In my opinion, we should consider reinventing our National Anthem as well as 'redesign' our Flag to better offer our enemies hope and love. It's my intention, if elected, to disarm America to the level of acceptance to our Middle East Brethren. If we, as a Nation of waring people, conduct ourselves like the nations of Islam, where peace prevails - - - perhaps a state or period of mutual accord could exist between our governments." ?When I become President, I will seek a pact of agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity, and a freedom from disquieting oppressive thoughts. We as a Nation, have placed upon the nations of Islam, an unfair injustice which is WHY my wife disrespects the Flag and she and I have attended several flag burning ceremonies in the past . "Of course now, I have found myself about to become the President of the United States and I have put my hatred aside. I will use my power to bring CHANGE to this Nation, and offer the people a new path.. My wife and I look forward to becoming our Country's First black Family. Indeed, CHANGE is about to overwhelm the United States of America " WHAAAAAAAT, the Hell is that!!! Yes, you read it right. I, for one, am speechless!!! Dale Lindsborg , Washington Post ? Reply to This -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100710/7e6bd9d6/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat Jul 10 23:53:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:53:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. > The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning > televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed > by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! There are two problems with this statement. 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both being right-wing and left-wing. 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the Washington Post. "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this corroborates it. "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and intended disarmament." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/AR2008102402800.html > From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised > "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about > his stance on the American Flag. That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden was, but not Obama. Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press The email you sent is entirely fiction. http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 00:41:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:41:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> Message-ID: <4C397589.00001A.02316@DON-B2514E06367> I believe it is true because it fits the profile barrack Hussein Obama himself has built, and it fits the profile he built in his book. Makes no difference whether the interview was on live TV, or taken earlier and archived for future use. The book is worth reading if you have doubts about him or doubts about his idiologies, or whom he held close as friends. It's a list of misfits who early on lost their constitutional way, and never surfaced to reality. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/10/2010 11:53:57 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Don, > From: donkelly > > Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. > The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning > televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed > by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! There are two problems with this statement. 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both being right-wing and left-wing. 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the Washington Post. "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" http://www.washingtonpost com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this corroborates it. "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and intended disarmament." http://www.washingtonpost com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/AR2008102402800.html > From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised > "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about > his stance on the American Flag. That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden was, but not Obama. Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press The email you sent is entirely fiction. http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/9f819c9e/attachment.gif From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com Sun Jul 11 00:58:39 2010 From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:58:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Alaska Message-ID: Hi all. Alan told me that Don had lived in Alaska. Then Don mentioned Service High School and the Anchorage School District in general. I suspect I know Don from the UAA School of Engineering. So I will ask, Don, do you know Attorney Jody Sutherland? Your name and his name both appear on a brass plaque on the wall of the school district administration office. Deb From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com Sun Jul 11 00:58:39 2010 From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:58:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Alaska Message-ID: <44A02DAB3397A6A41AFEA9642477B202@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> Hi all. Alan told me that Don had lived in Alaska. Then Don mentioned Service High School and the Anchorage School District in general. I suspect I know Don from the UAA School of Engineering. So I will ask, Don, do you know Attorney Jody Sutherland? Your name and his name both appear on a brass plaque on the wall of the school district administration office. Deb From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 11 08:00:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:00:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> Message-ID: <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> Jeff: Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting down Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and sensible grounds. Walt On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. > > That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. > >> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! > > There are two problems with this statement. > > 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both > being right-wing and left-wing. > > 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the > Washington Post. > > "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from > Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an > interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" > where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the > flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? > > Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I > can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people > here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ > 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html > > In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this > corroborates it. > > "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing > asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The > answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported > to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the > Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the > national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and > intended disarmament." > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ > AR2008102402800.html > >> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >> his stance on the American Flag. > > That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 > showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden > was, but not Obama. > > Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press > > The email you sent is entirely fiction. > > http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm > http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm > http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp > > This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 10:36:25 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:36:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> Message-ID: Amen, Walt. Deb Bratland On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Jeff: > Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting down > Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just > touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's > response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and > entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced > or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! > I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at > all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can > all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and > sensible grounds. > Walt > > On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > Don, > > > >> From: donkelly > >> > >> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. > > > > That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. > > > >> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning > >> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed > >> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! > > > > There are two problems with this statement. > > > > 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both > > being right-wing and left-wing. > > > > 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the > > Washington Post. > > > > "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from > > Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an > > interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" > > where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the > > flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? > > > > Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I > > can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people > > here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ > > 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html > > > > In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this > > corroborates it. > > > > "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing > > asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The > > answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported > > to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the > > Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the > > national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and > > intended disarmament." > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ > > AR2008102402800.html > > > >> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised > >> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about > >> his stance on the American Flag. > > > > That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 > > showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden > > was, but not Obama. > > > > Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press > > > > The email you sent is entirely fiction. > > > > http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm > > http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm > > http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp > > > > This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: > > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 10:49:00 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:49:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Debra Bratland > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > > Amen, Walt. > > Deb Bratland > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > Jeff: > > Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting down > > Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just > > touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's > > response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and > > entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced > > or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! > > I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at > > all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can > > all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and > > sensible grounds. > > Walt > > > > On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > > > Don, > > > > > >> From: donkelly > > >> > > >> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. > > > > > > That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. > > > > > >> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning > > >> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed > > >> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! > > > > > > There are two problems with this statement. > > > > > > 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both > > > being right-wing and left-wing. > > > > > > 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the > > > Washington Post. > > > > > > "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from > > > Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an > > > interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" > > > where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the > > > flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? > > > > > > Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I > > > can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people > > > here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ > > > 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html > > > > > > In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this > > > corroborates it. > > > > > > "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing > > > asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The > > > answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported > > > to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the > > > Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the > > > national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and > > > intended disarmament." > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ > > > AR2008102402800.html > > > > > >> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised > > >> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about > > >> his stance on the American Flag. > > > > > > That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 > > > showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden > > > was, but not Obama. > > > > > > Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press > > > > > > The email you sent is entirely fiction. > > > > > > http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm > > > http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm > > > http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp > > > > > > This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: > > > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 11:28:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:28:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C3A0D62.000009.02652@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Debra. I like to write even though I do not write well. Communication has always been a weak point with me, though I continue to work hard on developing those skills. I'll do everyone a favor by leaving this subject with two caveats, one from a founder and one from me: John Q. Adams said: We should be unfaithful to ourselves if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties if anything partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, virtuous, and independent elections. Donkelly said something in a newspaper 50 years ago. Some people will approach a railroad crossing, see the wig wag swinging, warning them that a train is coming, yet they will cross the tracks confident that the train will not hit them. As free people we can decide whether to cross the tracks or stop. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/fa2bf7b6/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 12:54:56 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:54:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Judges update on decisions Message-ID: <4C3A2189.000032.02652@DON-B2514E06367> Challenged! Court using 'feelings' as prayer-case decider A district judge's decision that the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional is being challenged on the argument, submitted in friend-of-the-court briefs to the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, that never before has any court decided that "hurt feelings" are grounds for making a claim. Read the latest now on WND.com. Plus! Digging into Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan's past at dean of Harvard Law School has revealed a pattern of promoting and praising radical proponents of the homosexual agenda. Will bench be sprongboard for "gay" rights? Click here for details. Court actions and reputations of judges are important because each decisions adds up to a final result where few Americans could, on balance, feel comfortable with. Throwing the constitution under the bus will eventually hurt every one of us who believe in constitutional law and order. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/c751cc6e/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/c751cc6e/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 15:16:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:16:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: A tired American... Message-ID: <4C3A42B8.000051.02652@DON-B2514E06367> From my cousins in Arizona who read the article by ex Marine Robert A Hall to be distributed with permission to the world wide web. Robert A Hall is not poor by most standards, but he certainly sympathizes with them. This is well written by an average American citizen. Thanks and hope you enjoy. Don -------Original Message------- From: Larry D. Pruitt Date: 7/11/2010 2:43:48 PM To: Carl Vogt; Baron; Eva; Privitt Marie Kelly; Pat; Norma; Montez; Mike; Kim; Henry; Don Kelly; David; Christine; Cathy; Carmel; Amy Subject: Fw: A tired American... ----- Original Message ----- From: leannalgb at aol.com To: madford262 at msn.com ; wmann at thedoctors.com ; THEFRAMMY at aol.com ; donwren at verizon.net ; bschmitt390 at yahoo.com ; Jorge.gonzalez2 at ca.rr.com ; hornett at goldenvalleycable.com ; bkoranch at cableusa.com ; sachi at kauaiorchids com ; emthor at cox.net Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 1:40 PM Subject: Fwd: A tired American... -----Original Message----- From: Debbie Foster To: leannalgb at aol.com Sent: Sun, Jul 11, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Fw: A tired American... This is excellent...........from my friend Judy. Please pass it on. Deb The introductory comment is not mine, but I Ieft it on. This man expresses my sentiments exactly. Well written from the heart. Pass it on. Judy When I received this Fwd, it was twice the width of my screen. After a few lines, I decided it was worth forwarding to a few. So I pasted it into Word which automatically adjusted the width to fit the screen, then I copied it again and here it is. If it was worth that effort, it might be worth your time to read it... HB 7-7-10 A Fwd.: Robert A.Hall is the actor who plays the coroner on CSI if you watch that show. He is much more than an actor. "I'm 63 and Im Tired" by Robert A. Hall I'm 63. Except for one semester in college when jobs were scarce and a six-month period when I was between jobs, but job-hunting every day, I've worked, hard, since I was 18. Despite some health challenges, I still put in 50-hour weeks, and haven't called in sick in seven or eight years. I make a good salary, but I didn't inherit my job or my income, and I worked to get where I am. Given the economy, there's no retirement in sight, and I'm tired Very tired. I'm tired of being told that I have to "spread the wealth" to people who don t have my work ethic. I'm tired of being told the government will take the money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too lazy to earn it. I'm tired of being told that I have to pay more taxes to "keep people in their homes." Sure, if they lost their jobs or got sick, I'm willing to help. But if they bought McMansions at three times the price of our paid-off $250,000 condo, on one-third of my salary, then let the left-wing Congress-critters who passed Fannie and Freddie and the Community Reinvestment Act that created the bubble help them with their own money. I'm tired of being told how bad America is by left-wing millionaires like Michael Moore, George Soros and Hollywood Entertainers who live in luxury because of the opportunities America offers. In thirty years, if they get their way, the United States will have the economy of Zimbabwe, the freedom of the press of China, the crime and violence of Mexico, the tolerance for Christian people of Iran, and the freedom of speech of Venezuela. I'm tired of being told that Islam is a "Religion of Peace," when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family "honor"; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren't believers"; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for "adultery"; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur'an and Shari'a law tells them to. I'm tired of being told that "race doesn't matter" in the post-racial world of Obama, when it's all that matters in affirmative action jobs, lower college admission and graduation standards for minorities (harming them the most), government contract set-asides, tolerance for the ghetto culture of violence and fatherless children that hurts minorities more than anyone, and in the appointment of U.S. Senators from Illinois. I think it's very cool that we have a black president and that a black child is doing her homework at the desk where Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation. I just wish the black president was Condi Rice, or someone who believes more in freedom and the individual and less arrogantly of an all-knowing government. I'm tired of a news media that thinks Bush's fundraising and inaugural expenses were obscene, but that think Obama's, at triple the cost, were wonderful; that thinks Bush exercising daily was a waste of presidential time, but Obama exercising is a great example for the public to control weight and stress; that picked over every line of Bush's military records, but never demanded that Kerry release his; that slammed Palin, with two years as governor, for being too inexperienced for VP, but touted Obama with three years as senator as potentially the best president ever. Wonder why people are dropping their subscriptions or switching to Fox News? Get a clue. I didn't vote for Bush in 2000, but the media and Kerry drove me to his camp in 2004. I'm tired of being told that out of "tolerance for other cultures" we must let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and mandrassa Islamic schools to preach hate in America, while no American group is allowed to fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love and tolerance. I'm tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global warming, which no one is allowed to debate. My wife and I live in a two-bedroom apartment and carpool together five miles to our jobs. We also own a three-bedroom condo where our daughter and granddaughter live. Our carbon footprint is about 5% of Al Gore's, and if you're greener than Gore, you're green enough. I'm tired of being told that drug addicts have a disease, and I must help support and treat them, and pay for the damage they do. Did a giant germ rush out of a dark alley, grab them, and stuff white powder up their noses while they tried to fight it off? I don't think Gay people choose to be Gay, but I damn sure think druggies chose to take drugs. And I'm tired of harassment from cool people treating me like a freak when I tell them I never tried marijuana. I'm tired of illegal aliens being called "undocumented workers," especially the ones who aren't working, but are living on welfare or crime. What's next? Calling drug dealers, "Undocumented Pharmacists"? And, no, I'm not against Hispanics. Most of them are Catholic, and it's been a few hundred years since Catholics wanted to kill me for my religion. I'm willing to fast track for citizenship any Hispanic person, who can speak English, doesn t have a criminal record and who is self-supporting without family on welfare, or who serves honorably for three years in our military.... Those are the citizens we need. I'm tired of latte liberals and journalists, who would never wear the uniform of the Republic themselves, or let their entitlement-handicapped kids near a recruiting station, trashing our military. They and their kids can sit at home, never having to make split-second decisions under life and death circumstances, and bad mouth better people than themselves. Do bad things happen in war? You bet. Do our troops sometimes misbehave? Sure. Does this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies for the last fifty years and still are? Not even close. So here's the deal I'll let myself be subjected to all the humiliation and abuse that was heaped on terrorists at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, and the critics can let themselves be subject to captivity by the Muslims, who tortured and beheaded Daniel Pearl in Pakistan, or the Muslims who tortured and murdered Marine Lt Col. William Higgins in Lebanon, or the Muslims who ran the blood-spattered Al Qaeda torture rooms our troops found in Iraq, or the Muslims who cut off the heads of schoolgirls in Indonesia, because the girls were Christian. Then we'll compare notes. British and American soldiers are the only troops in history that civilians came to for help and handouts, instead of hiding from in fear. I'm tired of people telling me that their party has a corner on virtue and the other party has a corner on corruption. Read the papers; bums are bipartisan. And I'm tired of people telling me we need bipartisanship. I live in Illinois , where the "Illinois Combine" of Democrats has worked to loot the public for years. Not to mention the tax cheats in Obama's cabinet. I'm tired of hearing wealthy athletes, entertainers and politicians of both parties talking about innocent mistakes, stupid mistakes or youthful mistakes, when we all know they think their only mistake was getting caught. I'm tired of people with a sense of entitlement, rich or poor. Speaking of poor, I'm tired of hearing people with air-conditioned homes, color TVs and two cars called poor. The majority of Americans didn't have that in 1970, but we didn't know we were "poor." The poverty pimps have to keep changing the definition of poor to keep the dollars flowing. I'm real tired of people who don't take responsibility for their lives and actions. I'm tired of hearing them blame the government, or discrimination or big-whatever for their problems. Yes, I'm damn tired. But I'm also glad to be 63. Because, mostly, I'm not going to have to see the world these people are making. I'm just sorry for my granddaughter. Robert A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the Massachusetts State Senate. There is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on! This is your chance to make a difference. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5270 (20100711) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2996 - Release Date: 07/10/10 23:36:00 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/55a413a5/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 11 17:56:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> Message-ID: Observe me refusing to take that bait. In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take that bait. WW On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >> >> Amen, Walt. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Jeff: >>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>> down >>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>> sensible grounds. >>> Walt >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>>> From: donkelly >>>>> >>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>> >>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>> >>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>> >>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>> >>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>> >>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>> Washington Post. >>>> >>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>> >>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>> >>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>> corroborates it. >>>> >>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>> intended disarmament." >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>> >>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>> >>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>> was, but not Obama. >>>> >>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>> >>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>> >>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>> >>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 18:07:47 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:07:47 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com><9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com><000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> Message-ID: <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> It is not that you don't believe such, just that you won't comment? -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Observe me refusing to take that bait. In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take that bait. WW On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >> >> Amen, Walt. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Jeff: >>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>> down >>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>> sensible grounds. >>> Walt >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>>> From: donkelly >>>>> >>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>> >>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>> >>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>> >>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>> >>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>> >>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>> Washington Post. >>>> >>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>> >>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>> >>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>> corroborates it. >>>> >>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>> intended disarmament." >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>> >>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>> >>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>> was, but not Obama. >>>> >>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>> >>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>> >>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>> >>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 18:15:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:15:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> Message-ID: <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> Thanks Walt. I appreciate that. I believe in Alaska we call a statue like that a bellican. I have no clue where that name came from. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/11/2010 5:55:12 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Observe me refusing to take that bait. In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take that bait. WW On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >> >> Amen, Walt. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Jeff: >>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>> down >>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>> sensible grounds. >>> Walt >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>>> From: donkelly >>>>> >>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>> >>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>> >>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>> >>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>> >>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>> >>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>> Washington Post. >>>> >>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>> >>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>> >>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>> corroborates it. >>>> >>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>> intended disarmament." >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>> >>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>> >>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>> was, but not Obama. >>>> >>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>> >>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>> >>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>> >>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/023c657a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 18:24:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:24:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com><9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com><000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C3A6EC0.000097.02652@DON-B2514E06367> Just say I am too black and too brown to bite on that. My grandmothers would roll over in their graves and come after me. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 7/11/2010 6:08:10 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation It is not that you don't believe such, just that you won't comment? -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Observe me refusing to take that bait. In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take that bait. WW On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >> >> Amen, Walt. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Jeff: >>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>> down >>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>> sensible grounds. >>> Walt >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>>> From: donkelly >>>>> >>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>> >>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>> >>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>> >>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>> >>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>> >>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>> Washington Post. >>>> >>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>> >>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>> >>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>> corroborates it. >>>> >>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>> intended disarmament." >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>> >>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>> >>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>> was, but not Obama. >>>> >>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>> >>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>> >>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>> >>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/c82bf089/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Sun Jul 11 21:07:12 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:07:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com><9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com><000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Nobody, could dig up all the crap Don does re: our President without at least having a teensy bit of racism on his mind! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > It is not that you don't believe such, just that you won't comment? > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > > Observe me refusing to take that bait. > In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take > that bait. > WW > On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >>> >>> Amen, Walt. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeff: >>>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>>> down >>>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>>> sensible grounds. >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> >>>>> Don, >>>>> >>>>>> From: donkelly >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>>> >>>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>>> >>>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>>> >>>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>>> >>>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>>> Washington Post. >>>>> >>>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>>> >>>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>>> >>>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>>> corroborates it. >>>>> >>>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>>> intended disarmament." >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>>> >>>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>>> >>>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>>> was, but not Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>>> >>>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>>> >>>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 21:13:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:13:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com><9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com><000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C3A964F.0000A2.02652@DON-B2514E06367> To the contrary Ed. Just go to the source of the trouble and start digging. Peel the onion back layer by layer. See what pops out. Even a caveman can do it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 7/11/2010 9:07:38 PM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation Nobody, could dig up all the crap Don does re: our President without at least having a teensy bit of racism on his mind! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > It is not that you don't believe such, just that you won't comment? > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > > Observe me refusing to take that bait. > In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take > that bait. > WW > On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >>> >>> Amen, Walt. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeff: >>>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>>> down >>>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible and >>>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally experienced >>>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>>> sensible grounds. >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> >>>>> Don, >>>>> >>>>>> From: donkelly >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>>> >>>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think anyway. >>>>> >>>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is employed >>>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>>> >>>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>>> >>>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>>> Washington Post. >>>>> >>>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>>> >>>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>>> >>>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>>> corroborates it. >>>>> >>>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>>> intended disarmament." >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/ >>>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>>> >>>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>>> >>>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe Biden >>>>> was, but not Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>>> >>>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>>> >>>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100711/f7f68f46/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 11 22:38:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:38:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com><9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com><000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <1727081678-1278896873-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-771707862-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <09CE9BC0-D7BF-4130-A30C-09461CB48D18@teleport.com> Anyone who read the original exchange knows. Unless they choose to remember it differently than it actually occurred, in which case debating them will merely lead to another futile waste of photons. On Jul 11, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Steve wrote: > It is not that you don't believe such, just that you won't comment? > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:56:43 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > > Observe me refusing to take that bait. > In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take > that bait. > WW > On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >>> >>> Amen, Walt. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeff: >>>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>>> down >>>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible >>>> and >>>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally >>>> experienced >>>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>>> sensible grounds. >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> >>>>> Don, >>>>> >>>>>> From: donkelly >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>>> >>>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is >>>>>> employed >>>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>>> >>>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>>> >>>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>>> Washington Post. >>>>> >>>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>>> >>>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>>> >>>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>>> corroborates it. >>>>> >>>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>>> intended disarmament." >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/ >>>>> 2008/10/24/ >>>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>>> >>>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>>> >>>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe >>>>> Biden >>>>> was, but not Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>>> >>>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>>> >>>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 11 22:43:51 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:43:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation In-Reply-To: <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> Actually, that line comes from what is (IMHO) the greatest British radio comedy series, "The Goon Show" (1950-1960). Google it. Listen to it. Savor the crazy genius of Spike Milligan, the WWII veteran who created it, along with Peter Sellers. WW On Jul 11, 2010, at 6:15 PM, donkelly wrote: > Thanks Walt. I appreciate that. > > I believe in Alaska we call a statue like that a bellican. > > I have no clue where that name came from. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/11/2010 5:55:12 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation > > Observe me refusing to take that bait. > In fact, here is a hand-carved wooden statue of me refusing to take > that bait. > WW > On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I wonder why Walt doesn't call Don a racist? >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:36 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Washington Post Quotation >>> >>> Amen, Walt. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeff: >>>> Much as I admire your patience and scholarly efforts in shooting >>>> down >>>> Don's latest Obamaphobic regurgitation, I'm afraid this might just >>>> touch off another death spiral in Grovenet. The tenor of Don's >>>> response to your fact-finding is telling. Don can write sensible >>>> and >>>> entertaining letters on anything which he has personally >>>> experienced >>>> or has actual knowledge of, but on this particular obsession....! >>>> I have long since decided to just bite my tongue and not respond at >>>> all to any message from Don involving Obama conspiracies. If we can >>>> all do that, perhaps we can keep the conversation on civil and >>>> sensible grounds. >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> >>>>> Don, >>>>> >>>>>> From: donkelly >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoting the Washington Post who precisely quoted the president. >>>>> >>>>> That's what the author of the email would like you to think >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>>> The following is a narrative taken from a 2008 Sunday morning >>>>>> televised Meet The Press'. The author (Dale Lindsborg) is >>>>>> employed >>>>>> by none other than the very liberal Washington Post!! >>>>> >>>>> There are two problems with this statement. >>>>> >>>>> 1) The Washington Post has historically been accused of both >>>>> being right-wing and left-wing. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Dale Lindsborg isn't someone who has ever worked at the >>>>> Washington Post. >>>>> >>>>> "Anonymous: I have received an e-mail ostensibly sent from >>>>> Dale Lindsborg of the Washington Post. It refers to an >>>>> interview with Obama on this past Sunday's "Meet The Press" >>>>> where he talks about why he doesn't believe in saluting the >>>>> flag. Is this really a person who works for The Post? >>>>> >>>>> Anne E. Kornblut: We just checked the database here, and I >>>>> can't find a Dale Lindsborg. I'm going to make sure people >>>>> here know about it. Can you send us the e-mail?" >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/ >>>>> 2008/10/12/DI2008101201556.html >>>>> >>>>> In case seeing it from one source isn't enough, this >>>>> corroborates it. >>>>> >>>>> "As for the hoax, about 10 days ago, e-mails began appearing >>>>> asking if 'Dale Lindsborg' was a columnist at The Post. The >>>>> answer is no. A few forwarded his 'column,' which purported >>>>> to report and criticize an Obama appearance on 'Meet the >>>>> Press.' The bogus report said that Obama disliked the >>>>> national anthem, had attended flag-burning ceremonies and >>>>> intended disarmament." >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/ >>>>> 2008/10/24/ >>>>> AR2008102402800.html >>>>> >>>>>> From Sunday's 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, Televised >>>>>> "Meet the Press" THE THEN Senator Obama was asked about >>>>>> his stance on the American Flag. >>>>> >>>>> That's impossible. Obama wasn't a guest on the September 7, 2008 >>>>> showing of "Meet the Press". Vice Presidential candidate Joe >>>>> Biden >>>>> was, but not Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Transcript of show on September 7, 2008 >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26590488/ns/meet_the_press >>>>> >>>>> The email you sent is entirely fiction. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-pin.htm >>>>> http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_anthem.htm >>>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp >>>>> >>>>> This article puts it probably the most succinctly it can be said: >>>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/hoax-anti-obama/ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 12 11:06:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> References: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> Message-ID: <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> FREE: buckets and buckets of colored glass bits from stained glass work. Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete garden stepping stones, etc... Free to good home. Free to bad home. Free to downright abusive home. Just take 'em away, please! WW From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 11:45:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:45:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Walt. In 1950 I was watching wrestling and roller derby on Friday nights. This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll post it. It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to be ramping up to take over the Internet. From: Congressman David Wu Date: 7/12/2010 7:40:17 AM To: ocollaugh at comcast.net Subject: Reply from Congressman David Wu Dear Mr. Kelly: Thank you for contacting me to express your concerns with the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulating the Internet. I appreciate knowing your thoughts on this issue. I understand your concerns with government interference with the Internet. An open and accessible Internet is essential if we are to protect consumers and the kind of entrepreneurial innovation that helps keep our nation competitive in the global economy. In 2007, the FCC began investigating Comcast's network management practices following complaints that the company had been blocking peer-to-peer file sharing programs on its network. The FCC investigation concluded that Comcast had violated the Commission's Internet Policy Statement when it blocked certain applications on its network. Comcast appealed this decision to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. On April 6, 2010, the D.C. Circuit ruled in the case of Comcast v. FCC that the FCC did not have jurisdiction to enforce its network management principles on the basis it had advanced in that case. The FCC is currently considering how to reconcile its statutory obligations with the opinion issued in the Comcast v. FCC decision. The House of Representatives is currently considering legislation to prohibit the FCC from further regulating the Internet. H.R. 3924, the Real Stimulus Act of 2009, would prohibit the FCC from promulgating any regulations on the Internet without congressional approval. The bill has been referred to the House Energy and Commerce Committee for further consideration. I will continue working hard to ensure the Internet remains an open forum for individuals to exchange information and ideas. As I do, I will keep your concerns with the FCC regulating Internet activity in mind. Thank you again for sharing your views on this issue. If I can be of further service, please contact my Oregon office at 503-326-2901 or 800-422-4003. With warm regards, David Wu Member of Congress Please do not respond to this message. This mailbox is unattended. If you wish to contact me, please use my website, www.house.gov/wu. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/4bb24f9e/attachment.gif From ljklaus at aol.com Mon Jul 12 12:04:36 2010 From: ljklaus at aol.com (ljklaus at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:04:36 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> References: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8CCF00C34C49B20-F9C-AFB@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> I could possibly use them for a class art project next school year...are they cutting-little-hands sharp? -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:06 am Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits FREE: buckets and buckets of colored glass bits from stained glass work. Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete garden stepping stones, etc... Free to good home. Free to bad home. Free to downright abusive home. Just take 'em away, please! WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From greenacres2 at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 12:22:08 2010 From: greenacres2 at verizon.net (George and Jean Cushing) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:22:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> References: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> Message-ID: <002c01cb21f7$85e076b0$91a16410$@net> Yes we might like some -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:07 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits FREE: buckets and buckets of colored glass bits from stained glass work. Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete garden stepping stones, etc... Free to good home. Free to bad home. Free to downright abusive home. Just take 'em away, please! WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet __________ NOD32 4953 (20100317) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 12:59:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:59:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Can Kenya keep freedom of religion? Message-ID: <4C3B73D3.000033.01644@DON-B2514E06367> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Obama Administration pushing Sharia Law in Kenya Impeach Obama Campaign ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Obama administration is now pushing a pro-Sharia constitution in Kenya over the cries of those in Kenya who see the end of their religious freedom. This comes as no surprise to those who know of Obama's connection to the Prime Minister Raila Odinga. In 2006as a U.S. SenatorObama campaigned for his cousin Odinga. This video is a good explanation of Obama and Odinga's connection: Watch Video Odingaa member of the same tribe as Obama signed an agreement with Muslims in exchange for their support which promised among other things: 1. "Within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Shariah as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions." NOTE: Not every single point has been checked. It is hard to get a comment in support of Sharia Law. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/5faead71/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Jul 12 13:29:31 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:29:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC In-Reply-To: <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects > all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll > post it. > > It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to > be ramping up to take over the Internet. Hopefully you'll read, as others have, that the FCC isn't ramping up to take over the Internet, but rather, they are working to make sure that the big corporations treat average citizens fairly when using the Internet. Specifically, the FCC didn't have adequate authority to force Comcast to treat all Internet traffic over their networks equally and as a result, ports used for file sharing were denied equal access and the FCC couldn't legally do anything about it. It's about time legislation caught up with technology and empowered the FCC to protect the citizen from big corporation. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 13:29:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:29:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Debt Clock Message-ID: <4C3B7B15.000042.01644@DON-B2514E06367> http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Someone spent a lot of time setting this up. Amazing, yet sobering. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/be1871ce/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 13:49:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:49:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3B7FD1.00004F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Jeff. I too hope FCC or their bosses are not trying to take over the Internet. But what is the motive to interfere #1. If Comcast doesn't want to promote government propaganda, so what. Not much is being said about Google who does some of that. How many Google URLs have you clicked on only to discover they were redirected to a government office of some kind? But because they keep feeding danger signals, we have to watch out, and really know for sure if their ultimate intent is to "nationalize" the Internet. Controlling the Internet is a good way to control thoughts, exchange of information, and an excellent one way conduit to win more elections by fraud and deceit. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/12/2010 1:29:45 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC Don, > From: donkelly > > This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects > all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll > post it. > > It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to > be ramping up to take over the Internet. Hopefully you'll read, as others have, that the FCC isn't ramping up to take over the Internet, but rather, they are working to make sure that the big corporations treat average citizens fairly when using the Internet. Specifically, the FCC didn't have adequate authority to force Comcast to treat all Internet traffic over their networks equally and as a result, ports used for file sharing were denied equal access and the FCC couldn't legally do anything about it. It's about time legislation caught up with technology and empowered the FCC to protect the citizen from big corporation. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/49b5de74/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 13:53:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:53:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3B80DC.000054.01644@DON-B2514E06367> What about protecting the citizen from bloated runaway government? FCC doesn't foster a fear in me. It is their bosses that scare me. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/12/2010 1:29:45 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC Don, > From: donkelly > > This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects > all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll > post it. > > It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to > be ramping up to take over the Internet. Hopefully you'll read, as others have, that the FCC isn't ramping up to take over the Internet, but rather, they are working to make sure that the big corporations treat average citizens fairly when using the Internet. Specifically, the FCC didn't have adequate authority to force Comcast to treat all Internet traffic over their networks equally and as a result, ports used for file sharing were denied equal access and the FCC couldn't legally do anything about it. It's about time legislation caught up with technology and empowered the FCC to protect the citizen from big corporation. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/c48c7b25/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Jul 12 13:59:17 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:59:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC In-Reply-To: <4C3B7FD1.00004F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> <4C3B7FD1.00004F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <046701cb2205$18c33be0$4a49b3a0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Thank you Jeff. You're welcome, though it seems you didn't actually read what I wrote. > I too hope FCC or their bosses are not trying to > take over the Internet. They're not trying to take it over. They're trying to get adequate laws in place to be able to protect the average citizen from being bullied and/or controlled by the big corporations. > But what is the motive to interfere #1. See above. > If Comcast doesn't want to promote government > propaganda, so what. This has nothing to do with promoting government propaganda. Who have you been listening to? This is about Comcast not giving equal access to the Internet. This is about some users being unnecessarily censored and/or barred from the Internet by Comcast. > Not much is being said about Google who does some of > that. How many Google URLs have you clicked on only to > discover they were redirected to a government office > of some kind? None -- that weren't search results intended to go to government offices. What sort of silliness are you getting at with this claim? > But because they keep feeding danger signals, we have to > watch out, and really know for sure if their ultimate > intent is to "nationalize" the Internet. Feeding danger signals?!? That only happens if you're feeding at the trough of paranoia. > Controlling the Internet is a good way to control > thoughts, exchange of information, and an excellent > one way conduit to win more elections by fraud and > deceit. Yes, I agree. It seems WND, Alex Jones, Beck, and many others have already figured that out and are attempting to use it to promote their own agenda. Sadly, far too many are buying into the nonsense while they get fat, sassy, and rich off their lies. What's sad is that what you're afraid of the government doing is already been happening, thanks to the 1st amendment, by cretins on the far-right, yet you support their agenda and somehow have come to the conclusion that they're doing no wrong. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 14:01:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:01:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Message-ID: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Wow, too much today. BREAKING NEWS: Illegal Felon Votes Handed Al Franken Stolen 2008 MN Senate Election' This morning Fox News began reporting the fact that Minnesota Majority a conservative watchdog group has concluded.... Discussion link: BREAKING NEWS: Illegal Felon Votes Handed Al Franken Stolen 2008 MN Senate Election I think this is what we have been talking about. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/3e6216e3/attachment-0001.gif From lindaworldart at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 14:20:44 2010 From: lindaworldart at yahoo.com (Linda Allen) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> Message-ID: <840820.69379.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Walt, I would love to take some of these for art projects at the high school where I teach. Are they still available? Linda Allen --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Walt Wentz wrote: > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 2:06 PM > FREE: buckets and buckets of colored > glass bits from stained glass work. > Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete > garden? > stepping stones, etc... > Free to good home. > Free to bad home. > Free to downright abusive home. > Just take 'em away, please! > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Jul 12 14:30:59 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:30:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > BREAKING NEWS: Illegal Felon Votes Handed Al Franken > Stolen 2008 MN Senate Election' > > This morning Fox News began reporting the fact that > Minnesota Majority a conservative watchdog group has > concluded.... Wonder why the original author of the email you forwarded left out two key words "may have" from the original Fox News article headline? Oh wait, I know why. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/felons-voting-illegally-franken-m innesota-study-finds/ Nobody yet knows which way these felons voted or whether or not they were all truly ineligible to vote so there's nothing conclusive about whether them not voting would have made any difference in the election. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 12 15:02:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:02:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <8CCF00C34C49B20-F9C-AFB@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> References: <011701cb1ecf$e2060520$a6120f60$@com> <3F507B34-6733-4120-B4C9-4BD87FCC8CF8@teleport.com> <8CCF00C34C49B20-F9C-AFB@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Any glass can cut, and these bits have had no special treatment. Also, they will need some cleaning, as they have been lying out in the woods for years. Rose's Glass Works in Beaverton sells bags of bits that have been tumbled to remove sharp edges. That might be something to check into. They are in the phone book. WW On Jul 12, 2010, at 12:04 PM, ljklaus at aol.com wrote: > I could possibly use them for a class art project next school > year...are they cutting-little-hands sharp? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > > Sent: Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:06 am > Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits > > > FREE: buckets and buckets of colored glass bits from stained glass > work. > Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete garden > stepping stones, etc... > Free to good home. > Free to bad home. > Free to downright abusive home. > Just take 'em away, please! > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 12 15:15:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:15:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <840820.69379.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <840820.69379.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201D7D60-9CEA-436D-B643-700CFC33898F@teleport.com> Hi Linda: Yep, you can have from one to five bucket full. Be aware, these were lying out in the woods for years, so will need some washing to get the dirt off. I have cleaned many sinks full of the larger sheets and pieces, and burned out on the chore. Walt On Jul 12, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Linda Allen wrote: > Walt, > I would love to take some of these for art projects at the high > school where I teach. Are they still available? > Linda Allen > > --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> From: Walt Wentz >> Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 2:06 PM >> FREE: buckets and buckets of colored >> glass bits from stained glass work. >> Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete >> garden >> stepping stones, etc... >> Free to good home. >> Free to bad home. >> Free to downright abusive home. >> Just take 'em away, please! >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 16:43:25 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC In-Reply-To: <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> Message-ID: <847F2793-C671-4A8E-9781-AC09221463D8@verizon.net> Thanks for the clarification Jeff. Katie On Jul 12, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects >> all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll >> post it. >> >> It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to >> be ramping up to take over the Internet. > > Hopefully you'll read, as others have, that the FCC isn't ramping > up to take > over the Internet, but rather, they are working to make sure that > the big > corporations treat average citizens fairly when using the Internet. > Specifically, the FCC didn't have adequate authority to force > Comcast to > treat all Internet traffic over their networks equally and as a > result, > ports used for file sharing were denied equal access and the FCC > couldn't > legally do anything about it. It's about time legislation caught > up with > technology and empowered the FCC to protect the citizen from big > corporation. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 16:52:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:52:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Poem by Martin Shane Goldstein Message-ID: <4C3BAAB5.00007C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Another poem from my book: FALSE PROPHETS Look upon the signs of hunger. Listen to the cries of pain. Hear the death rattle pass from dry and wrinkled lips and look upon the pathetic thing that once was a human being lie still in death. Wonder why in a modern world there is no respite from hunger and no helping hand to ease a weighty burden or end in sight of this dreadful plight. The world stands idly by as a fanatical breed spread their foul and deadly creed and reap a harvest of terror blood and strife. How many nations are there whose loyalties are bound to power and greed. Whose diplomats suppose while too many repose. Procrastinating philanderers of international law Accomplishing very little as the tormented screams of the innocent continue unheard. Savage rapes and unthinkable torture perpetrated by black hearted devils in turbans and robes. The Hydras gaping salivating jaws sway too and fro while too many good but idle men stare in wonder And ask could this really be as they stare unseeing into the 'Hydras' leering face still doubting as the venomous jaws lower. The shadow of the 'Beast' grows longer as the Sons of Evil grow stronger. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/2231ccaf/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 17:08:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:08:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> I don't know the names either, but the follow up investigation was meticulously checked with full name/birth of convict, with same information on who voted, and same information on who registered to vote, three cross checks nearly impossible to fault. There were 341 matches, more than enough to defeat Frankin. (think he lost the first count, but won the second count by about 318 votes.) In another state, 1800 convicts were found registered to vote. But that hangs in the air with no proof yet that they actually voted. What I ask is how do convicts get to register to vote, when they cannot vote?. Is it done by absentee ballots, or some such slight of hand? And if these crimes exist in two states, how many other states registered convicts (and dead people) to vote? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/12/2010 3:23:31 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Don, > From: donkelly > > BREAKING NEWS: Illegal Felon Votes Handed Al Franken > Stolen 2008 MN Senate Election' > > This morning Fox News began reporting the fact that > Minnesota Majority a conservative watchdog group has > concluded.... Wonder why the original author of the email you forwarded left out two key words "may have" from the original Fox News article headline? Oh wait, I know why. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/felons-voting-illegally-franken-m innesota-study-finds/ Nobody yet knows which way these felons voted or whether or not they were all truly ineligible to vote so there's nothing conclusive about whether them not voting would have made any difference in the election. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/c2c15eb6/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 17:19:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:19:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3BB104.00008C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Well I made a mistake on the numbers. As I stated 341 voters were matched up and Franken won second count by 212 vote (not the 218 I stated before) Note some you did not mention Jeff: The cross referencing of convict/registration/voting was a meticulous as I said it was. There is no reasonable doubt that those convicts put Franken over the top... ..........................stole the election. So what comes next? Will we see this again in November? Will it be an even larger scale fraud? I know. We don't know. So we hope for the best? Hope the train does not hit us? Set and watch it happen? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/12/2010 3:23:31 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Don, > From: donkelly > > BREAKING NEWS: Illegal Felon Votes Handed Al Franken > Stolen 2008 MN Senate Election' > > This morning Fox News began reporting the fact that > Minnesota Majority a conservative watchdog group has > concluded.... Wonder why the original author of the email you forwarded left out two key words "may have" from the original Fox News article headline? Oh wait, I know why. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/felons-voting-illegally-franken-m innesota-study-finds/ Nobody yet knows which way these felons voted or whether or not they were all truly ineligible to vote so there's nothing conclusive about whether them not voting would have made any difference in the election. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/bfebb3d8/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 17:29:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:29:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits References: <840820.69379.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <201D7D60-9CEA-436D-B643-700CFC33898F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C3BB36D.00008F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Walt. My wife is deep into crafts. Are you also? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/12/2010 3:25:12 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits Hi Linda: Yep, you can have from one to five bucket full. Be aware, these were lying out in the woods for years, so will need some washing to get the dirt off. I have cleaned many sinks full of the larger sheets and pieces, and burned out on the chore. Walt On Jul 12, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Linda Allen wrote: > Walt, > I would love to take some of these for art projects at the high > school where I teach. Are they still available? > Linda Allen > > --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> From: Walt Wentz >> Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 2:06 PM >> FREE: buckets and buckets of colored >> glass bits from stained glass work. >> Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete >> garden >> stepping stones, etc... >> Free to good home. >> Free to bad home. >> Free to downright abusive home. >> Just take 'em away, please! >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/098cf199/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 17:40:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:40:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> <847F2793-C671-4A8E-9781-AC09221463D8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C3BB60E.000092.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Meaning you support "nationalization" Jeff? I hope you mispoke. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/12/2010 4:43:47 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC Thanks for the clarification Jeff. Katie On Jul 12, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> This came from David Wu today, but as his message affects >> all of us here in FG, especially those on Comcast, I'll >> post it. >> >> It was response to a concern I had that FCC appeared to >> be ramping up to take over the Internet. > > Hopefully you'll read, as others have, that the FCC isn't ramping > up to take > over the Internet, but rather, they are working to make sure that > the big > corporations treat average citizens fairly when using the Internet. > Specifically, the FCC didn't have adequate authority to force > Comcast to > treat all Internet traffic over their networks equally and as a > result, > ports used for file sharing were denied equal access and the FCC > couldn't > legally do anything about it. It's about time legislation caught > up with > technology and empowered the FCC to protect the citizen from big > corporation. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/bb549066/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 17:46:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:46:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?=93We_Must_Redistribute_Wealth=94?= Message-ID: <4C3BB757.000099.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Obama?s New Health Care Czar: ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? EyeBlast July 72010 TodayPresident Obama officially made Donald Berwick his recess appointment to be the administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. In a 2008 while speaking on the British health care system in the UKBerwick said wealthy individuals must redistribute their wealth to those less fortunate for health care funding. Also during this speech he told those in attendance that he opposes free markets. ?Any health care funding plan that is just equitable civilized and humane must redistribute wealth from the richer among us to the poorer and the less fortunate. Excellent health care is by definition re distributional.? Is this really what we bargained for? Isn't this really socialism? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/1139fd68/attachment.gif From kevin97116 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 17:54:34 2010 From: kevin97116 at yahoo.com (Kevin) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an Urban Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public services away from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside the district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, schools, AND their share as well. All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the community. If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let them know your concerns. Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 18:08:00 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:08:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] BP Capping the well Message-ID: <4C3BBC70.0000A8.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Monday 6:00PM PST: BP expects to have a special cap on the well installed today. They say it may still leak a little, but the special cap will allow the oil to be collected at the surface. Let's all hope and pray this works. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/bd844365/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 18:11:07 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:11:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Poem by Martin Shane Goldstein In-Reply-To: <4C3BAAB5.00007C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3BAAB5.00007C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Remember it was Rush Limbaugh a couple of weeks ago who told poor children they should go dumpster diving for food. Isn't he one of the fanatical breed spreading foul and deadly creed? I think he must be.... On Jul 12, 2010, at 4:52 PM, donkelly wrote: > Another poem from my book: FALSE PROPHETS > > > > Look upon the signs of hunger. Listen to the cries of pain. Hear > the death > rattle pass from dry and wrinkled lips and look upon the pathetic > thing that > once was a human being lie still in death. > > > > Wonder why in a modern world there is no respite from hunger and no > helping > hand to ease a weighty burden or end in sight of this dreadful plight. > > The world stands idly by as a fanatical breed spread their foul and > deadly > creed and reap a harvest of terror blood and strife. > > > > How many nations are there whose loyalties are bound to power and > greed. > > Whose diplomats suppose while too many repose. Procrastinating > philanderers > of international law > > Accomplishing very little as the tormented screams of the innocent > continue > unheard. > > > > Savage rapes and unthinkable torture perpetrated by black hearted > devils in > turbans and robes. > > > > The Hydras gaping salivating jaws sway too and fro while too many > good but > idle men stare in wonder And ask could this really be as they stare > unseeing > into the 'Hydras' leering face still doubting as the venomous jaws > lower. > > > > The shadow of the 'Beast' grows longer as the Sons of Evil grow > stronger. > > > > Don__________________________________________ > _____ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 18:30:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:30:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3BC199.0000B0.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Like more information. Is it on a webpage somewhere? Has the city Council discussed this yet? If so, how do they feel? By urban renewal, do they mean tearing down old buildings and replacing them with new buildings and housing? How do owners of those properties feel? Are any of those buildings listed on the national historical trust? Don . -------Original Message------- From: Kevin Date: 7/12/2010 5:54:44 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an Urban Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public services away from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside the district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, schools, AND their share as well. All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the community. If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let them know your concerns. Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/042f9778/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 18:31:04 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:31:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] State by state comparisons In-Reply-To: <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: A friend of mine was falsely accused of a crime and during the process contacted the Innocence Project where there are estimates that as many as 30% of the people in jails are not guilty of the crime that they were accused of. Faulty eye witnesses, DNA tests never processed, over zealous prosecutors, politically powerful judges, etc all contribute. But that is not the topic that I was going to address. The question is: If a person makes a mistake and is sent to jail, once they have paid their debt to society are they allowed to have their lives back or at least are they allowed to vote? (You rarely really get your life back because your job prospects are pretty well trashed....) The rules are different in each state. And they run the range from voting rights being totally striped away to viewing a person as a citizen and human being regardless of whether they are in a jail cell or not and still allowing them to vote. Here is a chart of states and their status: http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286 Please not that Minnesota allows felons to vote after they are done serving all of their punishment. There has been some histrionics in the media lately about 'OMG Felons are voting!' Well, if the state allows a person to have their voting righs back then this is a reasonable thing for an ex felon to do. Katie From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 12 18:46:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:46:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits In-Reply-To: <4C3BB36D.00008F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <840820.69379.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <201D7D60-9CEA-436D-B643-700CFC33898F@teleport.com> <4C3BB36D.00008F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don: Only crafts I'm into are wood and glass. Now working on my 12th window. Just gave two buckets of glass bits away, Still got four or five left. WW On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:29 PM, donkelly wrote: > Thank you Walt. My wife is deep into crafts. Are you also? > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/12/2010 3:25:12 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits > > Hi Linda: > Yep, you can have from one to five bucket full. Be aware, these were > lying out in the woods for years, so will need some washing to get > the dirt off. I have cleaned many sinks full of the larger sheets and > pieces, and burned out on the chore. > Walt > > On Jul 12, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Linda Allen wrote: > >> Walt, >> I would love to take some of these for art projects at the high >> school where I teach. Are they still available? >> Linda Allen >> >> --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Subject: [Grovenet] Free colored glass bits >>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> >>> Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 2:06 PM >>> FREE: buckets and buckets of colored >>> glass bits from stained glass work. >>> Good for making mosaics, appliques on pottery, concrete >>> garden >>> stepping stones, etc... >>> Free to good home. >>> Free to bad home. >>> Free to downright abusive home. >>> Just take 'em away, please! >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 18:52:59 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:52:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?=93We_Must_Redistribute_Wealth=94?= In-Reply-To: <4C3BB757.000099.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3BB757.000099.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: It's exactly what I bargained for. "Socialized" medicine is the only answer. Deb Bratland On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Obama?s New Health Care Czar: ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? > > EyeBlast > July 72010 > > TodayPresident Obama officially made Donald Berwick his recess appointment > to be the administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. > > In a 2008 while speaking on the British health care system in the UKBerwick > said wealthy individuals must redistribute their wealth to those less > fortunate for health care funding. > > Also during this speech he told those in attendance that he opposes free > markets. > > ?Any health care funding plan that is just equitable civilized and humane > must redistribute wealth from the richer among us to the poorer and the > less > fortunate. Excellent health care is by definition re distributional.? > > > Is this really what we bargained for? > > Isn't this really socialism? > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Jul 12 19:00:10 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:00:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?=93We_Must_Redistribute_Wealth=94?= Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A873@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Debra...agreed. Vastly superior to insurance companies having untrained paper pushers making life and death decisions based on profit considerations. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: July 12, 2010 6:53 PM To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? It's exactly what I bargained for. "Socialized" medicine is the only answer. Deb Bratland On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Obama?s New Health Care Czar: ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? > > EyeBlast > July 72010 > > TodayPresident Obama officially made Donald Berwick his recess appointment > to be the administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. > > In a 2008 while speaking on the British health care system in the UKBerwick > said wealthy individuals must redistribute their wealth to those less > fortunate for health care funding. > > Also during this speech he told those in attendance that he opposes free > markets. > > ?Any health care funding plan that is just equitable civilized and humane > must redistribute wealth from the richer among us to the poorer and the > less > fortunate. Excellent health care is by definition re distributional.? > > > Is this really what we bargained for? > > Isn't this really socialism? > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 12 19:04:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:04:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] BP Capping the well In-Reply-To: <4C3BBC70.0000A8.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3BBC70.0000A8.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7BCF5D71-8146-461D-A762-781FAB78EAAF@teleport.com> Let's hope so. This is untested, cutting-edge technology, and if it works let's give credit to BP technicians... but let's not forget that BP management caused this disaster in the first place, with their "fast-track" development, regulation-gutting lobbyists and public-be-damned corporate philosophy. WW On Jul 12, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > Monday 6:00PM PST: > > BP expects to have a special cap on the well installed today. They > say it > may still leak a little, but the special cap will allow the oil to be > collected at the surface. > > Let's all hope and pray this works. > > Don________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kevin97116 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:04:51 2010 From: kevin97116 at yahoo.com (Kevin) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue In-Reply-To: <4C3BC199.0000B0.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C3BC199.0000B0.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <392226.12227.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If the City Councilors have not acted on or authorized this one has to ask themselves why not. You elect the City Council to conduct the business of the City. Beyond day to day operation, just how much of strategic planning do they entrust to staff? Do you really want such important issues directed by people who are not directly answerable to voters? As far as I know there is no webpage of other publication of the City's work on this project. Considering the amount of push back they will likely encounter from "underlying taxing districts" and the fact that any successful effort to stop this rests with an early effort to build a viable voice, I expect the City to keep this under the radar as much as possible. New law requires the City to notify underlying taxing districts (who will be required to provide service to any new growth within the district while not receiving a dime to provide that service.........meaning that the rest of you will subsidize that service for them) but the notification likely won't come until it's too late to educate and inform the public. I don't know about any historic properties, the boundries of any potential URD are likely not set yet. Regardless of that, do you think it's equitable that existing tax payers get stuck paying twice while any newcomers don't pay anything for services? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ What is happening in Kevin's corner of the bike world? http://the-whir-of-spokes-in-air.blogspot.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ________________________________ From: donkelly To: Kevin ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 6:30:08 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue Like more information. Is it on a webpage somewhere? Has the city Council discussed this yet? If so, how do they feel? By urban renewal, do they mean tearing down old buildings and replacing them with new buildings and housing? How do owners of those properties feel? Are any of those buildings listed on the national historical trust? Don . -------Original Message------- From: Kevin Date: 7/12/2010 5:54:44 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an Urban Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public services away from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside the district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, schools, AND their share as well. All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the community. If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let them know your concerns. Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 19:07:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:07:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] More on Kenya Message-ID: <4C3BCA67.0000B9.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Follow up on Kenya: Members of congress have criticized the president for interfering in the election in Kenya. Some congress people have questioned the legality of that interference under American law. In any case, here is the agreement in writing. (From Jihad Watch) Odinga, a member of the same tribe as Obama, signed an agreement with Muslims in exchange for their support which promised, among other things: ?Within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Shariah as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions.? ?Within one year facilitate the establishment of a Shariah court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters.? ?Popularize Islam, the only true religion, in the Coast and North Eastern Regions by ordering every primary school in Kenya in the regions to conduct daily Madrassa classes.? Now that Odinga is in charge, he is making good on those promises, and the Obama administration is once again supporting him. From ?Trouble in Kenya?, by Kathryn Lopez. Thanks to Jihad Watch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/745b7ec6/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 19:31:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:31:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?=93We_Must_Redistribute_Wealth=94?= References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A873@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C3BD016.0000C9.01644@DON-B2514E06367> So now we get untrained paper pushers in government making decisions on whether we live or die. What is the difference? Untrained means unqualified. At least death panels should be staffed by doctors. It still comes down to saving money. Kavorkian sounds like a good choice. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 7/12/2010 7:00:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? Debra...agreed. Vastly superior to insurance companies having untrained paper pushers making life and death decisions based on profit considerations Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: July 12, 2010 6:53 PM To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? It's exactly what I bargained for. "Socialized" medicine is the only answer. Deb Bratland On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Obama?s New Health Care Czar: ?We Must Redistribute Wealth? > > EyeBlast > July 72010 > > TodayPresident Obama officially made Donald Berwick his recess appointment > to be the administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. > > In a 2008 while speaking on the British health care system in the UKBerwick > said wealthy individuals must redistribute their wealth to those less > fortunate for health care funding. > > Also during this speech he told those in attendance that he opposes free > markets. > > ?Any health care funding plan that is just equitable civilized and humane > must redistribute wealth from the richer among us to the poorer and the > less > fortunate. Excellent health care is by definition re distributional.? > > > Is this really what we bargained for? > > Isn't this really socialism? > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/f25c03fd/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 19:40:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:40:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] State by state comparisons References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C3BD230.0000CE.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Wish I had a definitive answer. Civil rights are a national right, not a state right. But in California I knew two people who served their time, went to court and the judge restored their Civil Rights. But while in jail or prison, they had no civil rights, and no how no way could they vote. But as you suggest, bet the procedure varies greatly from one state to another. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/12/2010 6:31:19 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] State by state comparisons A friend of mine was falsely accused of a crime and during the process contacted the Innocence Project where there are estimates that as many as 30% of the people in jails are not guilty of the crime that they were accused of. Faulty eye witnesses, DNA tests never processed, over zealous prosecutors, politically powerful judges, etc all contribute. But that is not the topic that I was going to address. The question is: If a person makes a mistake and is sent to jail, once they have paid their debt to society are they allowed to have their lives back or at least are they allowed to vote? (You rarely really get your life back because your job prospects are pretty well trashed....) The rules are different in each state. And they run the range from voting rights being totally striped away to viewing a person as a citizen and human being regardless of whether they are in a jail cell or not and still allowing them to vote. Here is a chart of states and their status: http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286 Please not that Minnesota allows felons to vote after they are done serving all of their punishment. There has been some histrionics in the media lately about 'OMG Felons are voting!' Well, if the state allows a person to have their voting righs back then this is a reasonable thing for an ex felon to do. Katie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/eebb606a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 20:09:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:09:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] We can help by volunteering for a committee. Message-ID: <4C3BD8CE.0000DA.01644@DON-B2514E06367> The City of Forest Grove has ten advisory boards, committees and decision-making commissions appointed by the Mayor with the consent of the City Council. Each is unique in its size, meeting schedule, and specific function; however, the overall mission is the same: to make Forest Grove, ?A Great Place to Live, Learn, Work and Play.? Citizens who serve on the City advisory boards, committees and commissions perform a community service by using their skills, interests and initiatives to make a difference. If you wish to apply, simply complete the application by clicking on this link: B&C APPLICATION. You may apply at any time, regardless of whether there is a current opening, as vacancies occur throughout the year. The City Council appreciates your interest and your aspiration to serve Forest Grove. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/93530184/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 20:19:26 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:19:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue In-Reply-To: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where is the proposed URD and who owns the property? David On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Kevin wrote: > The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an Urban > Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public services away > from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside the > district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, schools, AND > their share as well. > > All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the community. > > If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let them know > your concerns. > > > > Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 20:26:54 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:26:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue In-Reply-To: References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801cb223b$3e71c790$bb5556b0$@net> Let me guess, council street. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:19 PM > To: Kevin; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue > > Where is the proposed URD and who owns the property? > > David > > On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Kevin wrote: > > > The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an > Urban > > Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public > services away > > from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside > the > > district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, > schools, AND > > their share as well. > > > > All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the > community. > > > > If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let > them know > > your concerns. > > > > > > > > Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 21:02:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:02:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <000801cb223b$3e71c790$bb5556b0$@net> Message-ID: <4C3BE541.0000E3.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Do you mean here Steven? Http://maps.google com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=Council%20Street%20Forest%20Grove Corner of Nehalem and Nehalem, apartment houses to the right? This is a neat 360 degree view map. Click on arrows to see the intersection in any direction. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steven Date: 7/12/2010 8:27:09 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue Let me guess, council street. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:19 PM > To: Kevin; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue > > Where is the proposed URD and who owns the property? > > David > > On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Kevin wrote: > > > The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an > Urban > > Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public > services away > > from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you outside > the > > district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, > schools, AND > > their share as well. > > > > All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the > community. > > > > If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and let > them know > > your concerns. > > > > > > > > Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/cf8ce767/attachment.gif From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 21:18:22 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:18:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue In-Reply-To: <4C3BE541.0000E3.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <256728.60585.qm@web50303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <000801cb223b$3e71c790$bb5556b0$@net> <4C3BE541.0000E3.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <000f01cb2242$6ed24110$4c76c330$@net> Yes, property owned by none other than a non property tax payer in the first place. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 9:02 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue > > Do you mean here Steven? Http://maps.google > com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=Council%20Street%20Forest%20Grove > > > > Corner of Nehalem and Nehalem, apartment houses to the right? > > > > This is a neat 360 degree view map. Click on arrows to see the > intersection in any direction. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Steven > > Date: 7/12/2010 8:27:09 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue > > > > Let me guess, council street. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] > > On > > > Behalf Of David Morelli > > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:19 PM > > > To: Kevin; Forest Grove local interests list > > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] tax burden shifting efforts continue > > > > > > Where is the proposed URD and who owns the property? > > > > > > David > > > > > > On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Kevin wrote: > > > > > > > The City of Forest Grove is continuing it's efforts to establish an > > > Urban > > > > Renewal District. (URD) A URD shifts the tax burden for public > > > services away > > > > from those "improvements" inside the district to those of you > > > outside > > > the > > > > district. Now you will get to pay your share of police, fire, > > > schools, AND > > > > their share as well. > > > > > > > > All of that for what a PSU study shows as a no gain for the > > > community. > > > > > > > > If you don't like the sound of that contact your city council and > > > let > > > them know > > > > your concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin "ear to the ground" Van Dyke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 21:35:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:35:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Black Panthers Declare War Message-ID: <4C3BED16.0000EA.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Black Panthers don't like Beck or The Tea Party. They just had to have at least one thing in common with liberals. present company excluded. http://www.westernjournalism com/new-black-panther-party-declares-war-on-fox-news-and-on-the-tea-party/ Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100712/9b096748/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Jul 12 23:23:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:23:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Comcast vs FCC In-Reply-To: <4C3BB60E.000092.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C383355.000008.03984@DON-B2514E06367> <03d501cb20c5$c57b4f30$5071ed90$@com> <9C87B4C1-D05D-4102-99D3-3D6E48670CD3@teleport.com> <000001cb2121$585cdf70$09169e50$@net> <4C3A6CB0.000094.02652@DON-B2514E06367> <7D1570CD-3962-42B7-BCC5-CBA070CADB52@teleport.com> <4C3B6234.00001F.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <045201cb2200$ef6e9fe0$ce4bdfa0$@com> <847F2793-C671-4A8E-9781-AC09221463D8@verizon.net> <4C3BB60E.000092.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <007201cb2253$ea7d9600$bf78c200$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Meaning you support "nationalization" Jeff? When did I say anything about the government owning and/or running the Internet? > I hope you mispoke. You misread and/or assigned a whole bunch extra to what you read that I didn't say. Jeff From christianamayer at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 23:43:59 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:43:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Freedom of the Press Message-ID: <4C3C0B2F.9070904@gmail.com> Question: In what country is it a felony for a reporter to report on the news? Choose your answer: A: North Korea B: Cuba C: United States D: all of the above The correct answer is D. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/07/12/most-transparent-administration-ever-makes-effective-reporting-gulf- From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:17:33 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Freedom of the Press In-Reply-To: <4C3C0B2F.9070904@gmail.com> References: <4C3C0B2F.9070904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007901cb225b$782b67f0$688237d0$@com> Christiana, > From: Christiana Mayer > > Question: In what country is it a felony for a > reporter to report on the news? > > Choose your answer: > A: North Korea > B: Cuba > C: United States > D: all of the above > > The correct answer is D. > > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/07/12/most-transparent- > administration-ever-makes-effective-reporting-gulf- That's not really a fair comparison. In the U.S. or more specifically in the Gulf Coast, it's a felony if you break the law to report on the news. In other words, there are rules about how close you can get to cleanup equipment. Any competent reporter with equally competent equipment shouldn't be in any measurable way be hampered from reporting on the news by a mere 65 foot safety distance from cleanup equipment. It's more fun and makes for better ratings when it's blown out of proportion as a First Amendment violation though. ;) Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:17:33 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] State by state comparisons In-Reply-To: References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <007c01cb225b$794f0060$6bed0120$@com> Katie, > From: Katie Allnutt > > A friend of mine was falsely accused of a crime and > during the process contacted the Innocence Project where > there are estimates that as many as 30% of the people in > jails are not guilty of the crime that they were accused > of. Faulty eye witnesses, DNA tests never processed, > over zealous prosecutors, politically powerful judges, > etc all contribute. [...] This reminds me of a story I heard on the radio today. I'll post it up as a new thread here in a few minutes. Thanks for the unintended reminder. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:17:33 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4C3BB104.00008C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BB104.00008C.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <007f01cb225b$7b30b8b0$71922a10$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well I made a mistake on the numbers. As I stated 341 voters > were matched up, and Franken won second count by 212 vote > (not the 218 I stated before) You still got them wrong. Franken won by 312; 100 more than you said above. > Note some you did not mention Jeff: The cross > referencing of convict/registration/voting was a > meticulous as I said it was. I didn't mention it because I didn't think it was a critical element of the story. I thought the missing parts in the story were more critical. > There is no reasonable doubt that those convicts put > Franken over the top......... stole the election. Like I said in my previous email, you're making two huge assumptions -- first, that they all voted for Franken and, second, that they were all ineligible to vote. Based on the laws in Minnesota it's possible some of them were voting legally. > So what comes next? Will we see this again in November? > Will it be an even larger scale fraud? There will likely always be some element of voter fraud; intentional and unintentional. If an adequate percentage of the population votes that are legally able to vote, a tiny percentage of fraud won't make a difference one way or another. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:17:33 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't know the names either, but the follow up investigation > was meticulously checked with full name/birth of convict, with > same information on who voted, and same information on who > registered to vote, three cross checks nearly impossible to > fault. Yes, quite possibly nearly impossible to fault, but there are grander margins of error. They never said who these felons voted for. It was implied they all may have voted for Franken, but either they don't know or they aren't saying because saying so would show that despite their votes not being counted Franken would have still won (meaning their publicity stunt was moot to begin with) They never indicated whether all these felons had had their right to vote revoked. They imply they all weren't allowed to vote, but that's not how the right to vote works. Once you become a felon doesn't mean you no longer have the right to vote. In Minnesota, for example, once you've been released from incarceration, probation, and parole you are then legally able to vote. In Maine and Vermont you can vote from prison. And, in case you were wondering, in Oregon you can vote once you've been released from prison (no matter what the crime or whether you're on probation or parole). The right to vote is broken down nicely at the following link: State Felon Voting Laws http://tinyurl.com/2vt42eg > There were 341 matches, more than enough to defeat > Frankin. (think he lost the first count, but won the > second count by about 318 votes.) No, the final recount put Franken ahead with 312 votes, but close. Coleman would have won by only 29 votes if all 341 matches mentioned were votes for Franken. However, that's a *huge* assumption. Since the race was already so close, the odds are that the 341 matches were split about evenly between the two meaning they'd have practically no net effect on the final outcome. However, if all of these votes were by felons that were legally able to vote, then it's all moot. The supposed report is quite scant on any actual details other than the numbers involved. > In another state, 1800 convicts were found registered > to vote. But that hangs in the air with no proof yet > that they actually voted. There's a big difference between a felon and a convict. Depending on the state that may have been completely legal. > What I ask is how do convicts get to register to vote, when > they cannot vote?. See the link above. > Is it done by absentee ballots, or some such slight > of hand? Maybe it's all on the up and up. > And if these crimes exist in two states, how many > other states registered convicts (and dead people) > to vote? You're assuming there's a crime being committed. There may not be one being committed. Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 00:27:03 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:27:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Freedom of the Press In-Reply-To: <4C3C0B2F.9070904@gmail.com> References: <4C3C0B2F.9070904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34256D3A-78AD-475B-8849-7A9ACBDED806@verizon.net> I don't want to be a wet blanket. The news reporters have to stand back 65 feet from the things they want to photograph, and that is censorship? 65 feet is roughly the distance from someone standing on one corner at an intersection to a person standing on the diagonal opposite corner. You do realize that it is about 65 feet from the pitchers mound to the catcher's box, and the pitcher can read the catchers finger signals? Every one of those closeup shots during sporting events is done at greater than 65 feet, and the targets are moving as fast as they can. Yes, perhaps not allowing news reporters to touch the booms or oiled birds could be an issue. But, with modern photography lenses the extra feet isn't really an issue on this one. David On Jul 12, 2010, at 11:43 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: > Question: In what country is it a felony for a reporter to report on > the news? > > Choose your answer: > A: North Korea > B: Cuba > C: United States > D: all of the above > > The correct answer is D. > > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/07/12/most-transparent-administration-ever-makes-effective-reporting-gulf- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 00:36:02 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:36:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> Message-ID: Jeff, I have it on good authority, that all of the felons were in jail on charges of soliciting sex in airport restrooms. We can guess how they voted. David On Jul 13, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > ... > They never said who these felons voted for. It was implied they all may have voted for Franken, but either they don't know or they aren't saying because saying so would show that despite their votes not being counted Franken would have still won (meaning their publicity stunt was moot to begin with) > ... > Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:51:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:51:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ex-Chicago Officer Guilty Of Lying About Torture Message-ID: <009401cb2260$46037e70$d20a7b50$@com> After reading the story below, checkout an interview with John Conroy, a reporter that's followed this story for nearly 2 decades. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/security/tortured-justice/2117/ Enjoy, Jeff +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ex-Chicago Officer Guilty Of Lying About Torture http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128175844 June 28, 2010 A federal jury on Monday found a former Chicago police commander guilty of lying under oath about the abuse and torture of criminal suspects. The jury deliberated over parts of three days before finding former Chicago police Lt. Jon Burge guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice. Burge, who did not react as the verdict was read, can remain free on bond until his Nov. 5 sentencing, when he faces up to 45 years in prison. Attorney Flint Taylor, who represented some of the torture victims, hugged people around him. Burge had long been suspected of abusing and torturing mostly African-American suspects, and allowing detectives under his command to do the same, during the 1970s and '80s. Suspects complained of being beaten, burned, shocked, having loaded guns stuck in their mouths and being suffocated with plastic bags held over their heads. Burge testified in his own defense at the four-week trial, denying he ever physically abused suspects or witnessed any other officers doing so. The Chicago Police Department fired Burge in 1993 amid torture allegations, but neither he nor anyone else was ever criminally charged with torture. An investigation by a special prosecutor in 2006 found evidence Burge and his underlings very likely tortured suspects, but the statute of limitations had run out. Federal authorities finally charged Burge two years ago with perjury and obstruction for lying about torture in a civil case. U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald said "a message needs to go out that that conduct is unacceptable" and asked others who feel they have evidence of torture to come forward. "It's a measure of justice; it's not a perfect sense of justice," Fitzgerald said of the verdict. He also said "it's sad that it took until 2010 for that to be proven in a court of law." Former Illinois Gov. George Ryan released four condemned men from death row in 2003 after Ryan said Burge had extracted confessions from them using torture. The four later reached a $20 million settlement with the city. The allegations of torture and coerced confessions eventually led to a still-standing moratorium on Illinois' death penalty and the emptying of death row - moves credited with reigniting the global fight against capital punishment. But they also earned Chicago a reputation as a haven for rogue cops, a place where police could abuse suspects without notice or punishment. From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 13 00:54:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:54:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> Message-ID: <00a501cb2260$92652ca0$b72f85e0$@com> David, > From: David Morelli [mailto:jo.david at verizon.net] > > I have it on good authority, that all of the felons were in > jail on charges of soliciting sex in airport restrooms. How odd. I heard they were all in on charges of soliciting male prostitution at leather-daddy bars. > We can guess how they voted. Yes we do... with their expense accounts. Jeff From hannah at teleport.com Tue Jul 13 06:36:47 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:36:47 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] We can help by volunteering for a committee. In-Reply-To: <4C3BD8CE.0000DA.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Thanks for this important information, Don! On 7/12/10 10:09 PM, "donkelly" wrote: > The City of Forest Grove has ten advisory boards, committees and > decision-making commissions appointed by the Mayor with the consent of the > City Council. Each is unique in its size, meeting schedule, and specific > function; however, the overall mission is the same: to make Forest Grove, ?A > Great Place to Live, Learn, Work and Play.? > > Citizens who serve on the City advisory boards, committees and commissions > perform a community service by using their skills, interests and initiatives > to make a difference. > > If you wish to apply, simply complete the application by clicking on this > link: B&C APPLICATION. You may apply at any time, regardless of whether there > is a current opening, as vacancies occur throughout the year. The City > Council appreciates your interest and your aspiration to serve Forest Grove. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 13:04:05 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:04:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> Message-ID: <4C3CC6AB.00002E.02356@DON-B2514E06367> Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received yesterday. Anyone else having this kind of problem? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 7/13/2010 12:37:07 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Jeff, I have it on good authority, that all of the felons were in jail on charges of soliciting sex in airport restrooms. We can guess how they voted. David On Jul 13, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > ... > They never said who these felons voted for. It was implied they all may have voted for Franken, but either they don't know or they aren't saying because saying so would show that despite their votes not being counted Franken would have still won (meaning their publicity stunt was moot to begin with) > ... > Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100713/f70eaca4/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 13:15:42 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:15:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4C3CC6AB.00002E.02356@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> <4C3CC6AB.00002E.02356@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4DEA5FC9-FFBF-4471-B6CF-EAA2837F5293@verizon.net> Are they all conservative campaigns sending you voter registration cards? On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received yesterday. Anyone else having this kind of problem? > > Don From jbcoops at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 13:46:02 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4DEA5FC9-FFBF-4471-B6CF-EAA2837F5293@verizon.net> Message-ID: <718203.70721.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> @david ZING! in don's defense... at least 200 of them are his own posts from grovenet --- On Tue, 7/13/10, David Morelli wrote: Are they all conservative campaigns sending you voter registration cards? On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received yesterday. Anyone else having this kind of problem? > > Don From khourym at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 14:06:57 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:06:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] For parents of school kids Message-ID: Local youths invited to participate in free fitness and mentoring program aimed at curbing obesity rate Skilled mentors will work individually with children and teens The schools of Physical Therapy and Professional Psychology invite local kids and teenagers to participate in a mentoring program aimed at decreasing obesity. Erin Jobst, assistant professor of physical therapy, said the Physical Activity Leaders (PALS) program, will study the effects of one-on-one activity and behavioral interventions with skilled mentors on children's health and lifestyle habits. The program is six months in length and requires participants to meet once per week with a designated PAL (mentor) for at least an hour to enjoy a fun physical activity. Mentors will also meet with a participant's parent(s) or guardian(s) once per month to work on strategies for successful weight loss and maintenance of a healthy and active lifestyle. To qualify for the program, applicants must be between the ages of six and 16, considered overweight (body mass index greater or equal to the 85th percentile), and receive approval to participate from their primary care provider. For more information, or to enroll a child, parents are encouraged to contact Professor Jobst at (503) 352-7259 or jobste at pacificu.edu. Para Espanol, llame a Becca Reisch: (503) 352-7264, orreischra at pacificu.edu. From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 14:18:30 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:18:30 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Message-ID: <907697618-1279055918-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-569569421-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Maybe Acorn. ------Original Message------ From: David Morelli Sender: grovenet-bounces To: donkelly To: Forest Grove local interests list ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting Sent: Jul 13, 2010 1:15 PM Are they all conservative campaigns sending you voter registration cards? On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received yesterday. Anyone else having this kind of problem? > > Don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 14:57:53 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:57:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <718203.70721.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <718203.70721.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0D9378D0-5E4E-41E3-97EB-C4AC0182B232@verizon.net> I suspect it is cosmic justice. Katie On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Jeff Cooper wrote: > @david > > ZING! > > in don's defense... at least 200 of them are his own posts from > grovenet > > --- On Tue, 7/13/10, David Morelli wrote: > Are they all conservative campaigns sending you voter registration > cards? > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received >> yesterday. Anyone else having this kind of problem? >> >> Don > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 15:17:42 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:17:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Message-ID: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> This explains a lot. Katie http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their worldview. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come about. But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen Colbert. But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of the human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature basically finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be wedded to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, they are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that the Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if the correction took. For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self-identified as conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor known as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush administration?s restrictions weren?t total. Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were consistently more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so sure it would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in politics, and the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the way of the dinosaur. From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 15:25:28 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:25:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] For parents of school kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1936DDB2370346FAB46278C2CAA5DDA0@JeffVAIO> Martha, This sounds like a great program. Since this is the first I've heard of it, I hope they get the word out all around town to everyone. Do you know if they are posting this in locations, where kids who need this the most, will become aware of it? marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Martha Khoury" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:06 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] For parents of school kids > Local youths invited to participate in free fitness and mentoring > program aimed at curbing obesity rate > > Skilled mentors will work individually with children and teens > > > The schools of Physical Therapy and Professional Psychology invite > local kids and teenagers to participate in a mentoring program aimed > at decreasing obesity. > > Erin Jobst, assistant professor of physical therapy, said the Physical > Activity Leaders (PALS) program, will study the effects of one-on-one > activity and behavioral interventions with skilled mentors on > children's health and lifestyle habits. > > The program is six months in length and requires participants to meet > once per week with a designated PAL (mentor) for at least an hour to > enjoy a fun physical activity. > > Mentors will also meet with a participant's parent(s) or guardian(s) > once per month to work on strategies for successful weight loss and > maintenance of a healthy and active lifestyle. > > To qualify for the program, applicants must be between the ages of six > and 16, considered overweight (body mass index greater or equal to the > 85th percentile), and receive approval to participate from their > primary care provider. > > For more information, or to enroll a child, parents are encouraged to > contact Professor Jobst at (503) 352-7259 or jobste at pacificu.edu. Para > Espanol, llame a Becca Reisch: (503) 352-7264, orreischra at pacificu.edu. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 16:08:47 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:08:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] For parents of school kids In-Reply-To: <1936DDB2370346FAB46278C2CAA5DDA0@JeffVAIO> References: <1936DDB2370346FAB46278C2CAA5DDA0@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <9CB7E07B-4B0C-443E-8D55-308CB65B496B@verizon.net> I picked it up off of PUNN. I hadn't seen it otherwise. --M On Jul 13, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Martha, > > This sounds like a great program. Since this is the first I've > heard of it, > I hope they get the word out all around town to everyone. Do you > know if > they are posting this in locations, where kids who need this the > most, will > become aware of it? > > marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Martha Khoury" > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:06 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: [Grovenet] For parents of school kids > >> Local youths invited to participate in free fitness and mentoring >> program aimed at curbing obesity rate >> >> Skilled mentors will work individually with children and teens >> >> >> The schools of Physical Therapy and Professional Psychology invite >> local kids and teenagers to participate in a mentoring program aimed >> at decreasing obesity. >> >> Erin Jobst, assistant professor of physical therapy, said the >> Physical >> Activity Leaders (PALS) program, will study the effects of one-on-one >> activity and behavioral interventions with skilled mentors on >> children's health and lifestyle habits. >> >> The program is six months in length and requires participants to meet >> once per week with a designated PAL (mentor) for at least an hour to >> enjoy a fun physical activity. >> >> Mentors will also meet with a participant's parent(s) or guardian(s) >> once per month to work on strategies for successful weight loss and >> maintenance of a healthy and active lifestyle. >> >> To qualify for the program, applicants must be between the ages of >> six >> and 16, considered overweight (body mass index greater or equal to >> the >> 85th percentile), and receive approval to participate from their >> primary care provider. >> >> For more information, or to enroll a child, parents are encouraged to >> contact Professor Jobst at (503) 352-7259 or jobste at pacificu.edu. >> Para >> Espanol, llame a Becca Reisch: (503) 352-7264, orreischra at pacificu.edu >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 13 17:20:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:20:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting In-Reply-To: <4C3CC6AB.00002E.02356@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B8290.00005B.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <001201cb2209$862df540$9289dfc0$@com> <4C3BAE86.000085.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <008201cb225b$7cec9980$76c5cc80$@com> <4C3CC6AB.00002E.02356@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <871F4783-2E45-4CCC-B256-C22D3085F312@teleport.com> Install a spam filter! Mine has spared me a lot of rubbish over the years. But it may be that maintaining your Websites is causing part of the problem... robots may be picking up your e-mail address from your sites and sharing it with other spammer robots. On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Gee, I've already received over 500 emails that I received > yesterday. Anyone > else having this kind of problem? > > Don > > -------Original Message------- > > From: David Morelli > Date: 7/13/2010 12:37:07 AM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Illegal Felons Voting > > Jeff, > > I have it on good authority, that all of the felons were in jail on > charges > of soliciting sex in airport restrooms. > > We can guess how they voted. > > David > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> ... >> They never said who these felons voted for. It was implied they >> all may > have voted for Franken, but either they don't know or they aren't > saying > because saying so would show that despite their votes not being > counted > Franken would have still won (meaning their publicity stunt was > moot to > begin with) >> ... >> Jeff > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 19:52:50 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:52:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks, (I think) Katie. Jane B-P On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > This explains a lot. > Katie > > > http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- > misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ > > > > Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly > By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am > > A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the > University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to > facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their > worldview. > > In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the > University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, > particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in > news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often > became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, > were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, > facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. > > This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people > making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. > They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. > The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are > objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct > information, such people react very, very differently than the merely > uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct > information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. > > ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re > wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher > on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a > natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? > > As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of > facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the > business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to > not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some > manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come about. > But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people > think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen Colbert. > > But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of the > human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view > of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature basically > finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the > ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be wedded > to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. > > New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, > suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, they > are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for > better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s > Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants > were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably > false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political > figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that the > Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), > and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell > research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan > inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of > misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if > the correction took. > > For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self-identified as > conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more > strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the > more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor known > as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly > different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected > stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the > readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush > administration?s restrictions weren?t total. > > Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- > esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were consistently > more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt > threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? > were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct > appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, > through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a > bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. > > For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably > helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so sure it > would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in politics, and > the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the way > of the dinosaur. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 20:08:34 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> Message-ID: Your welcome, (I'm sure!) Katie On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > Thanks, (I think) Katie. > > Jane B-P > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt > wrote: > >> This explains a lot. >> Katie >> >> >> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >> >> >> >> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >> >> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to >> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their >> worldview. >> >> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in >> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >> >> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. >> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >> information, such people react very, very differently than the merely >> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >> >> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re >> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher >> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a >> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >> >> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the >> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to >> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some >> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come about. >> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen Colbert. >> >> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of the >> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view >> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature basically >> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be wedded >> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >> >> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, >> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, they >> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that the >> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), >> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >> the correction took. >> >> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self-identified as >> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more >> strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the >> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor known >> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >> >> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- >> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were consistently >> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? >> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >> >> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so sure it >> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in politics, and >> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the way >> of the dinosaur. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > -- > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redhead854 at msn.com Tue Jul 13 21:46:02 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , Message-ID: My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. :) > From: allnutt at verizon.net > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly > > Your welcome, (I'm sure!) > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > > > Thanks, (I think) Katie. > > > > Jane B-P > > > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> This explains a lot. > >> Katie > >> > >> > >> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- > >> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ > >> > >> > >> > >> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly > >> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am > >> > >> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the > >> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to > >> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their > >> worldview. > >> > >> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the > >> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, > >> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in > >> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often > >> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, > >> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, > >> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. > >> > >> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people > >> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. > >> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. > >> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are > >> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct > >> information, such people react very, very differently than the merely > >> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct > >> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. > >> > >> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re > >> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher > >> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a > >> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? > >> > >> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of > >> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the > >> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to > >> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some > >> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come about. > >> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people > >> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen Colbert. > >> > >> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of the > >> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view > >> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature basically > >> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the > >> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be wedded > >> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. > >> > >> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, > >> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, they > >> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for > >> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s > >> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants > >> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably > >> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political > >> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that the > >> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), > >> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell > >> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan > >> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of > >> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if > >> the correction took. > >> > >> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self-identified as > >> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more > >> strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the > >> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor known > >> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly > >> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected > >> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the > >> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush > >> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. > >> > >> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- > >> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were consistently > >> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt > >> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? > >> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct > >> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, > >> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a > >> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. > >> > >> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably > >> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so sure it > >> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in politics, and > >> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the way > >> of the dinosaur. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 13 22:24:16 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:24:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> Message-ID: Probably the best layman's book on the subject is Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer," which although it is 60 years old, is still a classic. Hoffer himself was a classic. A hardworking logger, longshoreman and omnivorous reader, he had studied philosophy and sociology from ancient times to the present, and was able to describe and explain the "believer" phenomenon in crisp and lucid language. WW On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > Thanks, (I think) Katie. > > Jane B-P > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt > wrote: > >> This explains a lot. >> Katie >> >> >> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >> >> >> >> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >> >> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to >> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their >> worldview. >> >> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in >> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >> >> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. >> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >> information, such people react very, very differently than the merely >> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >> >> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re >> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher >> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a >> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >> >> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the >> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to >> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some >> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come about. >> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen Colbert. >> >> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of the >> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view >> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature basically >> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be wedded >> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >> >> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, >> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, they >> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that the >> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), >> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >> the correction took. >> >> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self-identified as >> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more >> strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the >> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor known >> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >> >> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- >> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were consistently >> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? >> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >> >> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so sure it >> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in politics, and >> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the way >> of the dinosaur. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > -- > Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) > www.phoenix-acupuncture.net > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 13 22:39:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:39:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Lotsa colored glass bits left In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hello out there, all you crafters and artisans: Two buckets of my colored glass bits are gone, but I still have plenty to go around! A couple of buckets full are sitting in front of the house, free for the taking, and there's plenty more where that came from! WW From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 07:39:25 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:39:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , Message-ID: <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that they are using a different measurement system or that they are ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different perspective now. Katie On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > > > My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes > what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that > she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were > being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. > > :) > > > > > >> From: allnutt at verizon.net >> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >> lies more strongly >> >> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >> >>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>> >>> Jane B-P >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This explains a lot. >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> >>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>> >>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to >>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their >>>> worldview. >>>> >>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>> facts in >>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>> >>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>> minds. >>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>> merely >>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>> >>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>> you?re >>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher >>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a >>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>> >>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the >>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to >>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some >>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>> about. >>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>> Colbert. >>>> >>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>> the >>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view >>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>> basically >>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>> wedded >>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>> >>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>> month, >>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>> they >>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>> the >>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>> fell), >>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>> the correction took. >>>> >>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>> identified as >>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more >>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>> issues, the >>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>> known >>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- >>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>> consistently >>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? >>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>> >>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>> sure it >>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>> politics, and >>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>> way >>>> of the dinosaur. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 14 08:01:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 08:13:05 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:13:05 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> Message-ID: <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 08:34:21 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:34:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the article Katie! It shows how being open minded can make all the difference in the world. It seems the paranoia of today's society, has contributed to the closed mindedness, or head in the sand attitude. How can you possibly hear the truth if you are closed minded and refuse to hear the truth? I guess this is why the fear-mongering of our political process contributes to the belief of their lies. What a vicious circle this is: scare the constituents, so they won't hear the truth, which terrifies them more, making them believe even more outrageous lies, and on it goes. As the article said below, the confidence ( or self esteem), of our citizenry can go a long way to making good decisions based on fact and truth. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:39 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 08:43:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:43:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C3DDB22.000001.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Looking both ways, the president could be viewed as leader of a cult. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/14/2010 8:00:07 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/1908a6bc/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 09:35:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 09:35:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Not just Progressives Steve. There is something to be said of checking a dozen sources of news daily. As for the subject line, the lies start at the top. Facts of execution, what is said compared with what is done, prove they are lies. Lie of the day: Obamcare will be self sustaining without a raise in taxes. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 7/14/2010 8:13:39 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/217e3894/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 09:44:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 09:44:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C3DE97A.00000F.03140@DON-B2514E06367> More lies to ponder: Grassfire Nation Update Obama v. Arizona Dear Patriot, The Obama team just played the race card in the State Of Arizona. Attorney General Holder is not only refusing to back down On the Obama lawsuit against Arizona's new immigration Law (S.B. 1070), he is now threatening a second lawsuit. Holder said that in six months or a year the federal Government could come back and file a lawsuit against Arizona to determine "whether or not there has been that Racial profiling Impact." Holder was signaling that the Obama team is ready to unleash The full force of the federal government against Arizona. These are not idle threats. We should not be surprised if Any race-based lawsuit from the Obama team includes so-called "hate crimes" Allegations. The intent is clear: demonize -- And possible criminalize -- anyone who opposes the Obama Amnesty agenda. + + Take A Stand For Immigration Law ==================================== Does anyone here believe that Arizona participates in race profiling? Does anyone doubt that Obama just played the race card in Arizona? Does anyone believe that Obama is not challenging state rights here? Does anyone believe that Obama is not mad at the Governor of Arizona for her refusing to take orders from him? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/cef5a0a7/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 10:11:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:11:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Disarmament of America Message-ID: <4C3DEFB5.00001A.03140@DON-B2514E06367> From Germany, but don't expect to see this on ABC, et. Al. A leading US Republican has called the new Start treaty Barack Obama's worst foreign policy mistake and urged Congress not to pass it. While that doesn't scupper the treaty, it shows that ratification won't come soon. [more] ============================= It looks like, for awhile at least, America will still be able to defend itself. The Muslim terrorists will have to wait awhile to be fully placated by our leadership. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/f0f1126e/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/f0f1126e/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 10:18:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] One Nation Message-ID: <4C3DF16A.000021.03140@DON-B2514E06367> A group of liberal political leaders and civil rights activists want to replicate the Tea Party movement in an effort to bolster the alleged progressive movement." The new group called "One Nation" consists of 170 of the country's leading liberal leaders who say the coalition is to "counter the Tea Party narrative " Organizers have launched their movement under the moniker "all the change" they voted for, seeking to energize the base that elected Barack Obama in 2008. The Washington Post reports that among the groups involved with One Nation are the National Council of La Raza, the NAACP, the AFL-CIO, and the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) -- groups which together represent "the core of the first-time voters" who backed Obama, notes the Post. ==================================== What have I been disclosing all along? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/c08866c4/attachment.gif From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com Wed Jul 14 10:41:55 2010 From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:41:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska Message-ID: <868D8656E0F9F24419182AA8594F6FD8@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100714/2b97adb3/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 11:47:16 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:47:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 12:33:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:33:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <4C3E1101.000031.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Not like the brazen three Ed. GRIN However, it occurs to me that if they cannot beat the Tea Party, they could join them. What a powerful movement that would be. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 7/14/2010 11:48:14 AM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would be a sort of paranoia. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. > > And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true > today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. > But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally > valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I > realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all > they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they > are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my > calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we > would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. > > Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that > they are using a different measurement system or that they are > ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they > don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe > that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They > just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They > don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist > for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders > may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. > > But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different > perspective now. > > Katie > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: > >> >> >> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>> lies more strongly >>> >>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>> >>>> Jane B-P >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>> >>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>> reacted to >>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>> their >>>>> worldview. >>>>> >>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>> facts in >>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>> >>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>> minds. >>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>> merely >>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>> >>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>> you?re >>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>> researcher >>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>> is ?a >>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>> >>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>> the >>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>> well, to >>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>> some >>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>> about. >>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>> Colbert. >>>>> >>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>> the >>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>> view >>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>> basically >>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>> wedded >>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>> >>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>> month, >>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>> they >>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>> the >>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>> fell), >>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>> the correction took. >>>>> >>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>> identified as >>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>> more >>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>> issues, the >>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>> known >>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>> self- >>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>> consistently >>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>> listener ? >>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>> sure it >>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>> politics, and >>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>> way >>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/04d98044/attachment.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 13:21:26 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:21:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <13425967414F409FB204A5CD4282E393@GeriPC> No, I don't, Ed. The progressives I know tend to research information more widely than the average person. If they only looked at or heard one source, especially in this day & age, that would be more of a "regressive" outlook on information, and definitely not a progressive mode. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:47 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly > I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies > more > strongly > > > I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, > the misinformed believe lies more strongly > > Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, > the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" > are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them > personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they > espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would > be a sort of paranoia. > WW > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >> >> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all >> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my >> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >> >> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that >> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist >> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >> >> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >> perspective now. >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>> lies more strongly >>>> >>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>> >>>>> Jane B-P >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>> >>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>> reacted to >>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>> their >>>>>> worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>> facts in >>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>> minds. >>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>> merely >>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>> you?re >>>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>> researcher >>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>>> is ?a >>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>> the >>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>> well, to >>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>> some >>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>> about. >>>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>> view >>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>> basically >>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>>> wedded >>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>> month, >>>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>>> they >>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>>> the >>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>> fell), >>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>>> identified as >>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>> more >>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>> issues, the >>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>>> known >>>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>> self- >>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>> consistently >>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>> listener ? >>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>>> sure it >>>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>> politics, and >>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 13:36:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:36:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> <13425967414F409FB204A5CD4282E393@GeriPC> Message-ID: <4C3E1FC3.000037.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Seems Progressives cannot agree between themselves: Here's one old, but typical view. Progressives Dissent Against Obama Some people seem to think that Barack Obama owns the progressive vote just because he's the Democratic presidential candidate. They couldn't be more wrong. True progressives don't believe in following political leaders like obedient sheep. Barack Obama has taken our support for granted, thinking that he can start acting like a Republican and we'll just stick by him because he has a pretty voice when he gives speeches. Bad move, Barack. Your betrayals have converted us into Progressives Against Obama. -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/14/2010 1:21:41 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly No, I don't, Ed. The progressives I know tend to research information more widely than the average person. If they only looked at or heard one source, especially in this day & age, that would be more of a "regressive" outlook on information, and definitely not a progressive mode. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:47 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly > I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies > more > strongly > > > I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, > the misinformed believe lies more strongly > > Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, > the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" > are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them > personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they > espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would > be a sort of paranoia. > WW > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >> >> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all >> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my >> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >> >> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that >> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist >> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >> >> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >> perspective now. >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>> lies more strongly >>>> >>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>> >>>>> Jane B-P >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>> >>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>> reacted to >>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>> their >>>>>> worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>> facts in >>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank slates. >>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>> minds. >>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>> merely >>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>> you?re >>>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>> researcher >>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>>> is ?a >>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>> the >>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>> well, to >>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>> some >>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>> about. >>>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>> view >>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>> basically >>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>>> wedded >>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>> month, >>>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>>> they >>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan?s >>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>>> the >>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>> fell), >>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>>> identified as >>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>> more >>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>> issues, the >>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>>> known >>>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but the >>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>> self- >>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>> consistently >>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>> listener ? >>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>>> sure it >>>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>> politics, and >>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/195298c7/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Jul 14 13:41:49 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:41:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E1FC3.000037.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> <13425967414F409FB204A5CD4282E393@GeriPC> <4C3E1FC3.000037.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2FDCCBF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Why should they all agree? What's so important about total agreement? Total agreement sounds like the results of Big Brother. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly Seems Progressives cannot agree between themselves: Here's one old, but typical view. Progressives Dissent Against Obama Some people seem to think that Barack Obama owns the progressive vote just because he's the Democratic presidential candidate. They couldn't be more wrong. True progressives don't believe in following political leaders like obedient sheep. Barack Obama has taken our support for granted, thinking that he can start acting like a Republican and we'll just stick by him because he has a pretty voice when he gives speeches. Bad move, Barack. Your betrayals have converted us into Progressives Against Obama. -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/14/2010 1:21:41 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly No, I don't, Ed. The progressives I know tend to research information more widely than the average person. If they only looked at or heard one source, especially in this day & age, that would be more of a "regressive" outlook on information, and definitely not a progressive mode. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:47 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly > I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies > more > strongly > > > I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, > the misinformed believe lies more strongly > > Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, > the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" > are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them > personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they > espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would > be a sort of paranoia. > WW > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >> >> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all >> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my >> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >> >> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that >> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist >> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >> >> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >> perspective now. >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>> lies more strongly >>>> >>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>> >>>>> Jane B-P >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>> >>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>> reacted to >>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>> their >>>>>> worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>> facts in >>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often >>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, >>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters - the people >>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs - aren't blank slates. >>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>> minds. >>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>> merely >>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct >>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>> >>>>>> "The general idea is that it's absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>> you're >>>>>> wrong," says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>> researcher >>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon - known as "backfire" - >>>>>> is "a >>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance." >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>> the >>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>> well, to >>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>> some >>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>> about. >>>>>> But that doesn't appear to be the American character. More people >>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>> view >>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>> basically >>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term "conservative" to be >>>>>> wedded >>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>> month, >>>>>> suggests that once those facts - or "facts" - are internalized, >>>>>> they >>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan's >>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren't), that >>>>>> the >>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>> fell), >>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if >>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part, it didn't. The participants who self- >>>>>> identified as >>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>> more >>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>> issues, the >>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic - a factor >>>>>> known >>>>>> as salience - the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn't backfire, but the >>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>> administration's restrictions weren't total. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>> self- >>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>> consistently >>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>> threatened or agitated - say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>> listener - >>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to have a >>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn't be so >>>>>> sure it >>>>>> would work. We're rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>> politics, and >>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 13:56:42 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:56:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E1FC3.000037.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3D3965891FF9442AA73298B8D60CCC33@EdsPortable> <13425967414F409FB204A5CD4282E393@GeriPC> <4C3E1FC3.000037.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1C233BDE-FF56-4C3D-8EB6-BEB0C89D072F@verizon.net> So, does this mean that the next time you say we all march lock step in with Obama we can pull up this email coming straight from you, as evidence that it is not true? As a progressive myself, my progressive friends and I have all had problems with Obama ever since he was running in the primary. We did not believe that he was any kind of saint that was going to save us. But what we did agree on was that compared to the other choices, he was the best among them. His faults were fewer and less obnoxious than the faults of the others, not that he was faultless himself. I still feel that way. Of course he hasn't fixed all his faults, they are still there, they are still aggravating and other progressives have beefs with him that are different than the ones that I have. This is not news at all to Obama supporters. You never get to vote for a perfect candidate, you only get to choose from a range of flawed options. Katie On Jul 14, 2010, at 1:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Seems Progressives cannot agree between themselves: Here's one old, > but > typical view. > > Progressives Dissent Against Obama > > Some people seem to think that Barack Obama owns the progressive > vote just > because he's the Democratic presidential candidate. They couldn't > be more > wrong. True progressives don't believe in following political > leaders like > obedient sheep. > > Barack Obama has taken our support for granted, thinking that he > can start > acting like a Republican and we'll just stick by him because he has > a pretty > voice when he gives speeches. > > Bad move, Barack. Your betrayals have converted us into > Progressives Against > Obama. > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Geri Steele > Date: 7/14/2010 1:21:41 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe > lies more > strongly > > No, I don't, Ed. The progressives I know tend to research > information more > widely than the average person. If they only looked at or heard > one source, > especially in this day & age, that would be more of a "regressive" > outlook > on information, and definitely not a progressive mode. > > > Geri > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ed Davie" > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:47 AM > To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe > lies more > strongly > >> I don't know any progressives like that. Do you? >> Ed >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve" >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >> lies >> more >> strongly >> >> >> I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, >> the misinformed believe lies more strongly >> >> Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, >> the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" >> are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them >> personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they >> espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would >> be a sort of paranoia. >> WW >> >> On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: >> >>> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >>> >>> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >>> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >>> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >>> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >>> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if >>> all >>> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >>> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't >>> understand my >>> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >>> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >>> >>> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit >>> that >>> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >>> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >>> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >>> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >>> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >>> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations >>> exist >>> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >>> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >>> >>> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >>> perspective now. >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>>> lies more strongly >>>>> >>>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>>> >>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jane B-P >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>>> reacted to >>>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> worldview. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>>> facts in >>>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they >>>>>>> found, >>>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank >>>>>>> slates. >>>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>>> minds. >>>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>>> merely >>>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the >>>>>>> correct >>>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>>> you?re >>>>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>>> researcher >>>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>>>> is ?a >>>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the >>>>>>> use of >>>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>>> well, to >>>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>>> view >>>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>>> basically >>>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>>>> wedded >>>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>>> month, >>>>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, >>>>>>> Michigan?s >>>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which >>>>>>> participants >>>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>>> fell), >>>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem >>>>>>> cell >>>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to >>>>>>> see if >>>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>>>> identified as >>>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>>> issues, the >>>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>>>> known >>>>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, >>>>>>> but the >>>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>>> self- >>>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>>> consistently >>>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>>> listener ? >>>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to >>>>>>> have a >>>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>>>> sure it >>>>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>>> politics, and >>>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 15:08:51 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:08:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > There is something to be said of checking a dozen > sources of news daily. That really depends on who those dozen are. I can think of a dozen that I *could* check, but won't because the crap they foist on their readers under the misguided label of "news" is utter nonsense. > As for the subject line, the lies start at the top. The top doesn't have a line on lies. The lies come from everywhere. However, by your logic, even your trusty sources like Beck, 9/12 project, Jones, WND, NewsMax, etc. are sources for lies as they're further up the info chain than any of us. > Facts of execution, what is said compared with what is > done, prove they are lies. You can twist anything anyone does to prove your preconceived idea about them. The facts of execution you see in concert with all the ones you choose to not see can be used to paint the picture you have already devised. > Lie of the day: Obamcare will be self sustaining without > a raise in taxes. Is there a single topic that you won't ultimately try to inject Obama into? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 15:36:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:36:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> Message-ID: <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> I can think of a few who don't report the news at all, unless they agree with it. So tell me, what is the different. It means they are as much crap as many, and just as inaccurate when they speak. Ever hear of the skillet calling the kettle black? If they don't report news what good are they? They are just cycobabble, and nonsense, Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 3:09:05 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly > > There is something to be said of checking a dozen > sources of news daily. That really depends on who those dozen are. I can think of a dozen that I *could* check, but won't because the crap they foist on their readers under the misguided label of "news" is utter nonsense. > As for the subject line, the lies start at the top. The top doesn't have a line on lies. The lies come from everywhere. However, by your logic, even your trusty sources like Beck, 9/12 project, Jones, WND, NewsMax, etc. are sources for lies as they're further up the info chain than any of us. > Facts of execution, what is said compared with what is > done, prove they are lies. You can twist anything anyone does to prove your preconceived idea about them. The facts of execution you see in concert with all the ones you choose to not see can be used to paint the picture you have already devised. > Lie of the day: Obamcare will be self sustaining without > a raise in taxes. Is there a single topic that you won't ultimately try to inject Obama into? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/51f349c1/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 15:46:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:46:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> Message-ID: <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> From one of your worthy sources I think: Fed Warns Economy May Take Five Years to Recover Federal Reserve officials now fear that the U.S. Economy will take at least five or six years to fully recover from the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression. Fed officials also trimmed their forecasts for growth this year to a range of between 3 percent and 3.5 percent from the 3.2 percent to 3.7 percent they projected in May. Read the Entire Article ? Go Here Now. Geeeee, only five years to recover from what the government, and democrats, crashed in just over one year. Doesn't sound quite equitable to me. Don PS: OK to defend them if you want. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 3:09:05 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly > > There is something to be said of checking a dozen > sources of news daily. That really depends on who those dozen are. I can think of a dozen that I *could* check, but won't because the crap they foist on their readers under the misguided label of "news" is utter nonsense. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/d6c377bd/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 15:51:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:51:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> Message-ID: <4C3E3F57.00005A.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Raise in taxes? Obama says no. His new CZAR has to raise taxes. As an economist he knows that. Look for that first raise in December or earlier...........especially if congress cuts Obam's personal operating piggy bank (budget) by 20 billion dollars, Then tell me he didn't lie. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 3:09:05 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly > > There is something to be said of checking a dozen > sources of news daily. That really depends on who those dozen are. I can think of a dozen that I *could* check, but won't because the crap they foist on their readers under the misguided label of "news" is utter nonsense. > As for the subject line, the lies start at the top. The top doesn't have a line on lies. The lies come from everywhere. However, by your logic, even your trusty sources like Beck, 9/12 project, Jones, WND, NewsMax, etc. are sources for lies as they're further up the info chain than any of us. > Facts of execution, what is said compared with what is > done, prove they are lies. You can twist anything anyone does to prove your preconceived idea about them. The facts of execution you see in concert with all the ones you choose to not see can be used to paint the picture you have already devised. > Lie of the day: Obamcare will be self sustaining without > a raise in taxes. Is there a single topic that you won't ultimately try to inject Obama into? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/c7a47015/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 14 16:12:41 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:12:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: A progressive who listens to one source of information ain't a progressive. "Progress" implies development, evolution and change. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Steve wrote: > I like the progressives who only listen to one source of information. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:01:04 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, > the misinformed believe lies more strongly > > Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, > the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" > are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them > personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they > espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would > be a sort of paranoia. > WW > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >> >> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all >> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my >> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >> >> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that >> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist >> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >> >> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >> perspective now. >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>> lies more strongly >>>> >>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>> >>>>> Jane B-P >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>> >>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>> reacted to >>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>> their >>>>>> worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>> facts in >>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they >>>>>> often >>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they >>>>>> found, >>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank >>>>>> slates. >>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>> minds. >>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>> merely >>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the >>>>>> correct >>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>> you?re >>>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>> researcher >>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>>> is ?a >>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>> the >>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>> well, to >>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>> some >>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>> about. >>>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>> view >>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>> basically >>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>>> wedded >>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>> month, >>>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>>> they >>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, >>>>>> Michigan?s >>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>>> the >>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>> fell), >>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to >>>>>> see if >>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>>> identified as >>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>> more >>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>> issues, the >>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>>> known >>>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but >>>>>> the >>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>> self- >>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>> consistently >>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>> listener ? >>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to >>>>>> have a >>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>>> sure it >>>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>> politics, and >>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 14 16:14:17 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:14:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3DDB22.000001.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <4C3DDB22.000001.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Piffle. Ain't takin' that bait, Don. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:43 AM, donkelly wrote: > Looking both ways, the president could be viewed as leader of a cult. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/14/2010 8:00:07 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe > lies more > strongly > > Or. like the "Golden Temple," "Heaven's Gate" or "Saucerian" cults, > the true believer may be convinced that the outside world's "truths" > are actually a gigantic conspiracy or fraud, directed at them > personally, or at the cult's leaders, or at the "REAL truths" they > espouse. Same goes for the more extreme political zealots. This would > be a sort of paranoia. > WW > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Truth, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. >> >> And in some cases there are multiple truths. For instance is true >> today July 14? For me it is and it will be so for a full 24 hours. >> But if a person is using a Mayan calendar their truth may be equally >> valid. And I could understand that they are equally right when I >> realize that they are using a different measuring system. But if all >> they argued was that today is not July 24th without telling me they >> are using unconventional measurements or if they didn't understand my >> calendar we would go away each thinking the other was crazy and we >> would each claim that we are using 'verifiable facts'. >> >> Then there are other areas where people are not willing to admit that >> they are using a different measurement system or that they are >> ignoring any and all measurement systems. Or worst of all, they >> don't even know if they are using any objective comparison. Maybe >> that is where the religious cults and corrupted faith come in. They >> just don't know. I think most of the followers are that way. They >> don't think along the lines of what other possible explanations exist >> for things. Or at least the majority of the believers. The leaders >> may very well be aware or they may have been duped too. >> >> But it is nice to know that you can write about it from a different >> perspective now. >> >> Katie >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Holly Di wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My mom always told me that if a lie is consistently told it becomes >>> what most people believe as the truth. The funny thing is that >>> she was raising me in a religious cult where alot of what we were >>> being taught was not the truth.....go figure.. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: allnutt at verizon.net >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:34 -0700 >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe >>>> lies more strongly >>>> >>>> Your welcome, (I'm sure!) >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, (I think) Katie. >>>>> >>>>> Jane B-P >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Katie Allnutt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This explains a lot. >>>>>> Katie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the- >>>>>> misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly >>>>>> By: David Dayen Monday July 12, 2010 6:50 am >>>>>> >>>>>> A truly disturbing study from researchers at my alma mater, the >>>>>> University of Michigan, reveals that political partisans >>>>>> reacted to >>>>>> facts that contradicted their worldview by clinging closer to >>>>>> their >>>>>> worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the >>>>>> University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, >>>>>> particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected >>>>>> facts in >>>>>> news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they >>>>>> often >>>>>> became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they >>>>>> found, >>>>>> were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, >>>>>> facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>> This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters ? the people >>>>>> making decisions about how the country runs ? aren?t blank >>>>>> slates. >>>>>> They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their >>>>>> minds. >>>>>> The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are >>>>>> objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct >>>>>> information, such people react very, very differently than the >>>>>> merely >>>>>> uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the >>>>>> correct >>>>>> information, they can entrench themselves even deeper. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit >>>>>> you?re >>>>>> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead >>>>>> researcher >>>>>> on the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? >>>>>> is ?a >>>>>> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.? >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who engages in political persuasion through the use of >>>>>> facts, this is the kind of study that borders on making me quit >>>>>> the >>>>>> business. I do take care, and encourage others to do so as >>>>>> well, to >>>>>> not allow my beliefs to color the facts, or at least not allow >>>>>> some >>>>>> manner of surety in my beliefs challenge facts when they come >>>>>> about. >>>>>> But that doesn?t appear to be the American character. More people >>>>>> think with their gut than their brain, to paraphrase Stephen >>>>>> Colbert. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the research on the subject shows this phenomenon as part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> human condition, the desire to order facts around a particular >>>>>> view >>>>>> of the world. Though it should be noted that the literature >>>>>> basically >>>>>> finds this to be more prevalent on the conservative side of the >>>>>> ledger, which if you understand the term ?conservative? to be >>>>>> wedded >>>>>> to the status quo makes a fair bit of sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last >>>>>> month, >>>>>> suggests that once those facts ? or ?facts? ? are internalized, >>>>>> they >>>>>> are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for >>>>>> better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, >>>>>> Michigan?s >>>>>> Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants >>>>>> were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably >>>>>> false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political >>>>>> figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren?t), that >>>>>> the >>>>>> Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually >>>>>> fell), >>>>>> and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell >>>>>> research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan >>>>>> inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of >>>>>> misinformation, and then measured the study participants to >>>>>> see if >>>>>> the correction took. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part, it didn?t. The participants who self- >>>>>> identified as >>>>>> conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even >>>>>> more >>>>>> strongly after being given the correction. With those two >>>>>> issues, the >>>>>> more strongly the participant cared about the topic ? a factor >>>>>> known >>>>>> as salience ? the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly >>>>>> different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected >>>>>> stories about stem cells, the corrections didn?t backfire, but >>>>>> the >>>>>> readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush >>>>>> administration?s restrictions weren?t total. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, one antidote researchers have found to this is >>>>>> self- >>>>>> esteem. Respondents who felt good about themselves were >>>>>> consistently >>>>>> more willing to accept new information, whereas those who felt >>>>>> threatened or agitated ? say, your average Rush Limbaugh >>>>>> listener ? >>>>>> were not. Another way to get facts to stick is through direct >>>>>> appeals. Yet media consumers get their information indirectly, >>>>>> through filters and outlets they either trust or imagine to >>>>>> have a >>>>>> bias, and they set their perceptions accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> For individuals, broadening your sources of information probably >>>>>> helps to find a consensus on some facts. But I wouldn?t be so >>>>>> sure it >>>>>> would work. We?re rapidly moving to a post-truth era in >>>>>> politics, and >>>>>> the data suggests that the agreed-upon set of facts has gone the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of the dinosaur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine >>>>> Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) >>>>> www.phoenix-acupuncture.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 16:23:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:23:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] News From Israel Message-ID: <4C3E46D5.000063.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Not from ABC or from any news reporting agency in America, if you have the time and interest. Netanyahu to Meet with Mubarak in Egypt July 14 - Israel and Egypt: 31 Years of Peaceful Relations, The Israel Project, Hamas: Send more freedom flotillas, The Jerusalem Post, JPost.com Staff Security vs. Openness: European Jewish institutions seeking a balance, JTA, Ruth Ellen Gruber Americans joining Somali terrorist group, American Thinker, Rick Moran Muslims demand Facebook adhere to Islamic/sharia law, Examiner.com, D.M. Murdock Disastrously 'transforming' defense, Center for Security Policy, Frank Gaffney, Jr. If you want the news, don't depend in NBC, CBS, or even CNN. Go directly to the source. Good reading this: Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/caca5645/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 16:28:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:28:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <002801cb23ac$5697ff20$03c7fd60$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > From one of your worthy sources I think: Is that sarcasm or are you serious? > Geeeee, only five years to recover from what the > government, and democrats, crashed in just over > one year. Back to earth Don. It took 4-5 years for the bubble to build and then burst. I smell your suggestion that it happened under the current administration too, but for the record, the bubble actually burst in 2008 before Obama was elected or were you not paying attention to the campaign trail rhetoric about trying to fix the economy that was coming from all the candidates? > Doesn't sound quite equitable to me. The US economy isn't a high-speed exotic car that can turn on a dime... > PS: OK to defend them if you want. Defend who? Defend what? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 16:28:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:28:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I can think of a few who don't report the news at > all, unless they agree with it. Omission is lying too, but in the world of news, it's less harmful than reporting lies as truth. > So tell me, what is the different. It means they are > as much crap as many, and just as inaccurate when > they speak. The difference is that if the news they agree with and are reporting is still truthful, then the only harm is in the stories that aren't getting told. However, that's not too big of a deal as all are "guilty" of that somehow as no one source can possibly report all the news. Additionally, some may choose to not report some things because they don't believe they're newsworthy or of interest to their audience. That doesn't make them wrong and certainly doesn't make them liars by omission. > Ever hear of the skillet calling the kettle black? I thought it was the pot, but anyway.... > If they don't report news, what good are they? They > are just cycobabble, and nonsense, Don't forget fear and hate mongering too. This is precisely why I won't read anything from that list I mentioned earlier. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 16:52:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:52:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002801cb23ac$5697ff20$03c7fd60$@com> Message-ID: <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> I understand the national debt going from 2 trillion to nearly 14 trillion on the president's watch. Can't blame Bush for that. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 4:29:10 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > From one of your worthy sources I think: Is that sarcasm or are you serious? > Geeeee, only five years to recover from what the > government, and democrats, crashed in just over > one year. Back to earth Don. It took 4-5 years for the bubble to build and then burst. I smell your suggestion that it happened under the current administration too, but for the record, the bubble actually burst in 2008 before Obama was elected or were you not paying attention to the campaign trail rhetoric about trying to fix the economy that was coming from all the candidates? > Doesn't sound quite equitable to me. The US economy isn't a high-speed exotic car that can turn on a dime... > PS: OK to defend them if you want. Defend who? Defend what? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/f151593a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 16:55:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:55:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Yes, not newsworthy if it makes the president look bad? Is that the basis for good news? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 4:29:22 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I can think of a few who don't report the news at > all, unless they agree with it. Omission is lying too, but in the world of news, it's less harmful than reporting lies as truth. > So tell me, what is the different. It means they are > as much crap as many, and just as inaccurate when > they speak. The difference is that if the news they agree with and are reporting is still truthful, then the only harm is in the stories that aren't getting told. However, that's not too big of a deal as all are "guilty" of that somehow as no one source can possibly report all the news. Additionally, some may choose to not report some things because they don't believe they're newsworthy or of interest to their audience. That doesn't make them wrong and certainly doesn't make them liars by omission. > Ever hear of the skillet calling the kettle black? I thought it was the pot, but anyway.... > If they don't report news, what good are they? They > are just cycobabble, and nonsense, Don't forget fear and hate mongering too. This is precisely why I won't read anything from that list I mentioned earlier. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/44066551/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 17:28:48 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:28:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002801cb23ac$5697ff20$03c7fd60$@com> <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Right. Because Bush paid for all the expensive wars he started and then ended them before Obama had to pay for them. Oh wait, that didn't happen. Katie On Jul 14, 2010, at 4:52 PM, donkelly wrote: > I understand the national debt going from 2 trillion to nearly 14 > trillion > on the president's watch. > > > > Can't blame Bush for that. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Jeff Howden > > Date: 7/14/2010 4:29:10 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe > lies more > strongly > > > > Don, > > > >> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > >> > >> From one of your worthy sources I think: > > > > Is that sarcasm or are you serious? > > > >> Geeeee, only five years to recover from what the > >> government, and democrats, crashed in just over > >> one year. > > > > Back to earth Don. It took 4-5 years for the bubble to build and then > > burst. I smell your suggestion that it happened under the current > > administration too, but for the record, the bubble actually burst > in 2008 > > before Obama was elected or were you not paying attention to the > campaign > > trail rhetoric about trying to fix the economy that was coming from > all the > > candidates? > > > >> Doesn't sound quite equitable to me. > > > > The US economy isn't a high-speed exotic car that can turn on a > dime... > > > >> PS: OK to defend them if you want. > > > > Defend who? Defend what? > > > > Jeff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 18:09:25 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:09:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? Message-ID: There is a fire up on David Hill that looks pretty big - does anyone have any info on exactly where the fire is? -Marian From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 18:41:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:41:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? References: Message-ID: <4C3E6730.000089.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Trying to get a handle on that. -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 7/14/2010 6:09:37 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? There is a fire up on David Hill that looks pretty big - does anyone have any info on exactly where the fire is? -Marian _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/68dd38fb/attachment.gif From jbcoops at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 18:42:02 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430830.82423.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> http://www.kptv.com/news/24262790/detail.html FOREST GROVE, Ore. -- Firefighters said they are monitoring a 3- to 4-acre brush fire in Forest Grove.The Gaston fire chief said the blaze, which is burning near David Hill Road and Thatcher Road, started at about 4 p.m. Wednesday.Access issues have prevented crews from putting water on the fire, according to firefighters, but they are assessing the best way to approach it.No structures are threatened and no injures have been reported, crews said.There is no word on the cause of the blaze. --- On Wed, 7/14/10, Marian Cakarnis wrote: From: Marian Cakarnis Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 6:09 PM There is a fire up on David Hill that looks pretty big - does anyone have any info on exactly where the fire is? -Marian From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 19:06:37 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:06:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? In-Reply-To: <430830.82423.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <430830.82423.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6337327F05474D519164603E33E0A967@JeffVAIO> Thanks Jeff! -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Cooper" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:42 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? > http://www.kptv.com/news/24262790/detail.html > > FOREST GROVE, Ore. -- Firefighters said they are > monitoring a 3- to 4-acre brush fire in Forest Grove.The Gaston > fire chief said the blaze, which is burning near David Hill Road and > Thatcher Road, started at about 4 p.m. Wednesday.Access issues > have prevented crews from putting water on the fire, according to > firefighters, but they are assessing the best way to approach it.No > structures are threatened and no injures have been reported, crews > said.There is no word on the cause of the blaze. > > --- On Wed, 7/14/10, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > From: Marian Cakarnis > Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 6:09 PM > > There is a fire up on David Hill that looks pretty big - does anyone have > any info on exactly where the fire is? > -Marian > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 22:16:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:16:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Yes, not newsworthy if it makes the president look bad? If that's what they think their audience wants, then sure. News agencies have the right to pick and choose what they report -- just like news consumers have the right to consume news from more than one source. > Is that the basis for good news? Not in my book. In my opinion, that makes them contextually irrelevant, at least as far as news about the President is concerned. However, they may do a fantastic job covering other subjects. So, while I may not agree with one facet of their reporting choices, that doesn't mean I toss them out entirely. The exception is when a news source rarely gets anything right or there's not a clear enough distinction between reporting and op-ed (Fox comes to mind) or they use their op-ed of infotainment portions as the basis for reporting the news on their reporting segments (rather than using true independent sources for the info and fact-checking their info). You and I have had plenty of exchanges about things like this in the past so I don't think you're really driving at a point that's contained within these questions. What are you really getting at? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 22:16:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:16:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002801cb23ac$5697ff20$03c7fd60$@com> <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <003a01cb23dc$e586dff0$b0949fd0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I understand the national debt going from 2 trillion to nearly 14 > trillion on the president's watch. > > Can't blame Bush for that. Nope, Reagan and Bush Sr. get a healthy dose of blame for that. We haven't had a national debt in the $2 trillion range since Reagan took office in 1982. It's been steadily increasing since then. Bush Jr. most certainly didn't leave office with a $2 trillion national debt -- it was nearly $11 trillion. In fact, Bush started out with a national debt of $6 trillion and managed to rack up another $5 trillion in national debt, nearly doubling it. That was no small task considering this occurred during boom years (which equals higher than average tax income and lower than average social service spending), not lean years like now when the government has significantly reduced tax income and significantly increased social service costs. http://thenationaldebtcrisis.com/the-national-debt-by-president/ For some perspective on my comments about boom/lean years, check out this piece on Slate Magazine. http://www.slate.com/id/2260365?wpisrc=xs_wp_0001 Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 14 22:55:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:55:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Any info on fire on David Hill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99848AE7-143A-42D1-B556-7188AAC9DAF4@teleport.com> It's up the hill above the road, across from the vinyard. Seemed to be burning down into the canyon last I saw of it. The volume of smoke is declining, although I could still see flames about 8:30. A local resident suggested it was caused by teen drinkers, who often use that area, building a campfire. WW On Jul 14, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > There is a fire up on David Hill that looks pretty big - does > anyone have any info on exactly where the fire is? > -Marian > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Jul 14 22:57:01 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:57:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3E57.000055.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002801cb23ac$5697ff20$03c7fd60$@com> <4C3E4DB7.00006D.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don, You are responsible for the honesty of your statements. Since this is a patently false statement, would you like to provide the real numbers? David On Jul 14, 2010, at 4:52 PM, donkelly wrote: > I understand the national debt going from 2 trillion to nearly 14 trillion on the president's watch. > > Can't blame Bush for that. > > Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 23:21:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:21:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> Message-ID: <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> I don't think you can focus on FOX particularly, while the majors refuse to report anything not supporting their idiology, or the idiology of their owners. This week I took rare time to watch FOX news several times. In particularly paying attention to Bill O'Reily, when he is asked a question about a subject that we suspect FOX has been forbidden to talk about, it seems like Rupert Murdock is answering the question. Remember in 2008 it was the Washington Post, owned by Murdock, that endorsed Obama for president. In an interview Murdock said, "yes, he is a Rock Star and I want to see if he will walk the walk." That is just one reason why I distrust some of the things the FOX crew says. I can't tell if it is their opinion, or Murdock's On the other hand, it seems that Ann Coulter can say about anything she wants to say. And says it very well. Perhaps her nickname should be BARB I If it is a news organization and it does not report news, good and bad, what good is it? Isn't it irrelevant? Whatever happened to What Where When and How? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 10:16:35 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Yes, not newsworthy if it makes the president look bad? If that's what they think their audience wants, then sure. News agencies have the right to pick and choose what they report -- just like news consumers have the right to consume news from more than one source. > Is that the basis for good news? Not in my book. In my opinion, that makes them contextually irrelevant, at least as far as news about the President is concerned. However, they may do a fantastic job covering other subjects. So, while I may not agree with one facet of their reporting choices, that doesn't mean I toss them out entirely. The exception is when a news source rarely gets anything right or there's not a clear enough distinction between reporting and op-ed (Fox comes to mind) or they use their op-ed of infotainment portions as the basis for reporting the news on their reporting segments (rather than using true independent sources for the info and fact-checking their info). You and I have had plenty of exchanges about things like this in the past so I don't think you're really driving at a point that's contained within these questions. What are you really getting at? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/17633f81/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 23:26:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:26:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct Message-ID: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> http://www.resistnet.com/forum/topics/obama-cleanses-the-terrorism Day by day, the facts come out. A parthinian shot. Good evening, until Thursday. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/80732e4a/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 23:29:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:29:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> Message-ID: <4C3EAAC9.0000B4.03140@DON-B2514E06367> I don't think you can focus on FOX particularly, while the majors refuse to report anything not supporting their idiology, or the idiology of their owners. This week I took rare time to watch FOX news several times. In particularly paying attention to Bill O'Reily, when he is asked a question about a subject that we suspect FOX has been forbidden to talk about, it seems like Rupert Murdock is answering the question. Remember in 2008 it was the Washington Post, owned by Murdock, that endorsed Obama for president. In an interview Murdock said, "yes, he is a Rock Star and I want to see if he will walk the walk." That is just one reason why I distrust some of the things the FOX crew says. I can't tell if it is their opinion, or Murdock's On the other hand, it seems that Ann Coulter can say about anything she wants to say. If it is a news organization and it does not report news, good and bad, what good is it? Isn't it irrelevant? Whatever happened to W W W H -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 10:16:35 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Yes, not newsworthy if it makes the president look bad? If that's what they think their audience wants, then sure. News agencies have the right to pick and choose what they report -- just like news consumers have the right to consume news from more than one source. > Is that the basis for good news? Not in my book. In my opinion, that makes them contextually irrelevant, at least as far as news about the President is concerned. However, they may do a fantastic job covering other subjects. So, while I may not agree with one facet of their reporting choices, that doesn't mean I toss them out entirely. The exception is when a news source rarely gets anything right or there's not a clear enough distinction between reporting and op-ed (Fox comes to mind) or they use their op-ed of infotainment portions as the basis for reporting the news on their reporting segments (rather than using true independent sources for the info and fact-checking their info). You and I have had plenty of exchanges about things like this in the past so I don't think you're really driving at a point that's contained within these questions. What are you really getting at? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100714/b6e3d546/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Jul 14 23:48:27 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:48:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't think you can focus on FOX particularly, [...] I don't think I ever said I was focusing on FOX exclusively. > Remember in 2008 it was the Washington Post, owned by > Murdock, that endorsed Obama for president. In an > interview Murdock said, "yes, he is a Rock Star and > I want to see if he will walk the walk." The Washington Post isn't owned by Rupert Murdoch. I think you're thinking of the New York Post. The Washington Post is owned (and has been since 1933) the Graham family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post > That is just one reason why I distrust some of the things > the FOX crew says. I can't tell if it is their opinion, > or Murdock's That's one of *many* reasons I distrust what they say. > On the other hand, it seems that Ann Coulter can say about > anything she wants to say. And says it very well. Perhaps > her nickname should be BARB I She's a lowly creature, in my opinion. > If it is a news organization and it does not report news, > good and bad, what good is it? Isn't it irrelevant? Indeed. I'm pretty sure that's the point I was making. > Whatever happened to What Where When and How? Oh, FOX (and many others of their ilk) left those foundations of quality journalism behind a *long* time ago (for those that ever made use of them). Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 00:03:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:03:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3EAAC9.0000B4.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EAAC9.0000B4.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <83211F9E-7447-478A-9118-A30DCC121E8F@verizon.net> No, I hadn't remembered that. And a good thing too. Murdoch's & New York Post endorsed Obama as the Democratic candidate, over Clinton. However they endorsed McCain for President, over Obama in the General Election. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/letters/having_mccain_back_the_post_gets_yeYDUDc0ZhGW2B9Fs03kyI It would appear that Murdoch disliked the Clinton name, or he may have thought that Obama had a better chance of losing the general election to the Conservatives. David On Jul 14, 2010, at 11:29 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... > Remember in 2008 it was the Washington Post, owned by Murdock, that endorsed Obama for president. In an interview Murdock said, "yes, he is a Rock Star and I want to see if he will walk the walk." From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 00:33:41 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:33:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: The article does a good job of drawing the line between the "patriotic resistance" perspective and the Administration's perspective as quoted in the article. 1. The Administration denies that the cause of our enemy is just, or that it has any religious merit. "Nor do we describe our enemy as jihadists or Islamists because jihad is holy struggle, a legitimate tenet of Islam meaning to purify oneself of one's community." 2. The Administration affirms that we are at war with those people who direct violence against American, we are not at war with Muslims in general. "Moreover, describing our enemy in religious terms would lend credence to the lie propagated by al Qaeda and its affiliates to justify terrorism, that the United States is somehow at war against Islam. The reality, of course, is that we have never been and will never be at war with Islam. 3. The Bush Administration's use of the words "War on Terror" is a wrong description of our battle. "The President's strategy is absolutely clear about the threat we face. Our enemy is not terrorism because terrorism is but a tactic."... "Our enemy is not terror because terror is a state of mind and, as Americans, we refuse to live in fear," In contrast the writer says that 1. This is a religious war 2. We are at war with Muslims in general 3. We must be afraid for our very survival. "The bottom line: Islam and terrorism are intertwined. America will never understand its enemy, an enemy dedicated to its destruction, unless it comes to grips with that fact." That may say it all. President Obama wants to focus our energy on separating the those who would attack us, from the populations where they hide. The patriotic resistance wants America to live in fear, as they lash out at all Muslims and ensure that all of them hate us. When dealing with a guerilla war it is the difference between using a marksman to take out a target and using "carpet bombing". David On Jul 14, 2010, at 11:26 PM, donkelly wrote: > http://www.resistnet.com/forum/topics/obama-cleanses-the-terrorism > > Day by day, the facts come out. A parthinian shot. > > Good evening, until Thursday. > > > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 00:54:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:54:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska In-Reply-To: <868D8656E0F9F24419182AA8594F6FD8@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> References: <868D8656E0F9F24419182AA8594F6FD8@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> Message-ID: <4475143C-A9BD-46F6-9A79-20B5E8DDF18E@verizon.net> Hi. Don does "push some buttons" for some of the active writers on Grovenet. I believe that is intentional. David On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Beverly Wilson wrote: > Thank you Don. I just knew you were the same Don > > Grovenet, I watch the subjects go by with interest. You all are part of a very bright group, but some seem to have a blind spot where Don't input is concerned. > > I am not into genealogy, but I attended school in Banks and Forest Grove and the University of Oregon. > > My ancestor in Washington County was William Geiger. He lived in Orchards and had a farm near Old Banks. > > When the railroad came the people put their town on skids and towed the buildings to the present location with teams of horses. > > Thanks for your explanation and for your interest. > > Deb From g-g-steele at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 03:15:55 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:15:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska In-Reply-To: <4475143C-A9BD-46F6-9A79-20B5E8DDF18E@verizon.net> References: <868D8656E0F9F24419182AA8594F6FD8@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> <4475143C-A9BD-46F6-9A79-20B5E8DDF18E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <039CD155FD554048B38A72FBC5E3FF20@GeriPC> I believe the same, as the evidence is in every day's GroveNet postings. It is a matter of believing one's own eyes & the evidence before them. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:54 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska > Hi. > > Don does "push some buttons" for some of the active writers on Grovenet. > > I believe that is intentional. > > David > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Beverly Wilson wrote: > >> Thank you Don. I just knew you were the same Don >> >> Grovenet, I watch the subjects go by with interest. You all are part of a >> very bright group, but some seem to have a blind spot where Don't input >> is concerned. >> >> I am not into genealogy, but I attended school in Banks and Forest Grove >> and the University of Oregon. >> >> My ancestor in Washington County was William Geiger. He lived in Orchards >> and had a farm near Old Banks. >> >> When the railroad came the people put their town on skids and towed the >> buildings to the present location with teams of horses. >> >> Thanks for your explanation and for your interest. >> >> Deb > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 09:52:50 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:52:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See Message-ID: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128389587 July 15, 2010 by Robert Krulwich Step outside on a clear day this summer and look up. What do you see? Blue. And maybe a plane or a bird up there, but otherwise ... nothing. Or so you think. It turns out that right above you, totally invisible, is an enormous herd of animal life. There are so many creatures up there, they are so busy, so athletic, so tiny, that we had to fly up and give you a peek. When British scientist Jason Chapman told us (listen to the radio piece or watch our video) there are 3 billion insects passing over your head in a summer month, he was talking about his survey in Great Britain. Closer to the equator, he says, the numbers should rise. He wouldn't be surprised, for example, that in the sky over Houston or New Orleans there could be 6 billion critters passing overhead in a month. What Are They Doing Up There? Sometimes insects and spiders need to leave where they are and go someplace else for food, for sex, for space. For a variety of reasons bugs disperse. You can see them launching themselves, says entomologist Matt Greenstone: "They just stand straight up on their little back legs and just by doing that they can get part of their body up into this layer [of air] where it's more turbulent and then, if you can get a ride on a parcel that's going up, you can get off the ground and then if you're lucky you can get carried aloft." How High Can They Go? Writing in American Entomologist recently (Spring 2010 "Frequent Flyer Miles"), May Berenbaum says pilots have long known insects can fly very high. "Beginning in 1926, Tanglefoot-coated slides were affixed to airplanes to collect insects, with famed aviator Charles Lindbergh contributing to the data-collection effort by carrying sticky glass slides on his 1933 flight crossing the Atlantic at 2,460 to 5,410 feet and over Greenland at 7,870 to 12,135 feet." Now 12,000 feet is pretty high, but the all-time champ is, of all things, a termite! In Berenbaum's article, she mentions a 1961 study by J.L. Gressit in which an insect trap was placed on a Super-Constellation airplane. That plane flew 116,684 miles sampling the air, catching whatever was up there, and, Berenbaum says, "the trap managed to capture a single termite at 19,000 feet." That's the record. You wonder how a little critter can survive the wind, the cold, the absence of company. "Wind dispersal at great heights can be rough on insects," Berenbaum writes. And yet they are very tough. Of 1,610 insects captured by another team of scientists led by L.R. Taylor in 1960, 97 percent were alive and undamaged, 2 percent were alive and damaged, and 1 percent were dead. The flying corpse was, it turns out, a rarity. If all this interests you, check out Insectopedia by Hugh Raffles, just published, whose essay on bugs in the air (Chapter 1) is how I bumped into this subject. Raffles (briefly), Berenbaum and Greenstone all appear in our radio story; Benjamin Arthur's animations are lovingly and meticulously (OMG, does he work hard) constructed (and he drew the heroic British mouse in an earlier post). From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 11:06:01 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See In-Reply-To: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> References: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> Message-ID: <34E94755-A58A-4969-8EFB-ECC1D7CA78DC@verizon.net> Fascinating. We are so lucky to be living on a planet that constantly amazes us and teaches us new things. Katie On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128389587 > July 15, 2010 by Robert Krulwich > > Step outside on a clear day this summer and look up. What do you > see? Blue. > And maybe a plane or a bird up there, but otherwise ... nothing. Or > so you > think. It turns out that right above you, totally invisible, is an > enormous > herd of animal life. There are so many creatures up there, they are > so busy, > so athletic, so tiny, that we had to fly up and give you a peek. > > When British scientist Jason Chapman told us (listen to the radio > piece or > watch our video) there are 3 billion insects passing over your head > in a > summer month, he was talking about his survey in Great Britain. > Closer to > the equator, he says, the numbers should rise. He wouldn't be > surprised, for > example, that in the sky over Houston or New Orleans there could be 6 > billion critters passing overhead in a month. > > What Are They Doing Up There? > > Sometimes insects and spiders need to leave where they are and go > someplace > else for food, for sex, for space. For a variety of reasons bugs > disperse. > You can see them launching themselves, says entomologist Matt > Greenstone: > > "They just stand straight up on their little back legs and just by > doing > that they can get part of their body up into this layer [of air] > where it's > more turbulent and then, if you can get a ride on a parcel that's > going up, > you can get off the ground and then if you're lucky you can get > carried > aloft." > > How High Can They Go? > > Writing in American Entomologist recently (Spring 2010 "Frequent Flyer > Miles"), May Berenbaum says pilots have long known insects can fly > very > high. "Beginning in 1926, Tanglefoot-coated slides were affixed to > airplanes > to collect insects, with famed aviator Charles Lindbergh > contributing to the > data-collection effort by carrying sticky glass slides on his 1933 > flight > crossing the Atlantic at 2,460 to 5,410 feet and over Greenland at > 7,870 to > 12,135 feet." > > Now 12,000 feet is pretty high, but the all-time champ is, of all > things, a > termite! > > In Berenbaum's article, she mentions a 1961 study by J.L. Gressit > in which > an insect trap was placed on a Super-Constellation airplane. That > plane flew > 116,684 miles sampling the air, catching whatever was up there, and, > Berenbaum says, "the trap managed to capture a single termite at > 19,000 > feet." That's the record. > > You wonder how a little critter can survive the wind, the cold, the > absence > of company. "Wind dispersal at great heights can be rough on insects," > Berenbaum writes. And yet they are very tough. Of 1,610 insects > captured by > another team of scientists led by L.R. Taylor in 1960, 97 percent > were alive > and undamaged, 2 percent were alive and damaged, and 1 percent were > dead. > The flying corpse was, it turns out, a rarity. > > If all this interests you, check out Insectopedia by Hugh Raffles, > just > published, whose essay on bugs in the air (Chapter 1) is how I > bumped into > this subject. Raffles (briefly), Berenbaum and Greenstone all > appear in our > radio story; Benjamin Arthur's animations are lovingly and > meticulously > (OMG, does he work hard) constructed (and he drew the heroic > British mouse > in an earlier post). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 10:03:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:03:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska References: <868D8656E0F9F24419182AA8594F6FD8@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> <4475143C-A9BD-46F6-9A79-20B5E8DDF18E@verizon.net> <039CD155FD554048B38A72FBC5E3FF20@GeriPC> Message-ID: <4C3F3F6C.00001F.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Good morning Grovenetters. It has been said in many times that Don uses words like swords, for shock value. I plead guilty. Sometimes the shock value elicits deeper thought into an issue, makes people think, and sometimes it doesn't make people think outside the box. As humans we are limited in what we can learn by sight, sound, and touch. So it is those senses we must rely on to decide the weight of facts. Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/15/2010 3:16:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska I believe the same, as the evidence is in every day's GroveNet postings. It is a matter of believing one's own eyes & the evidence before them. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:54 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Re: Alaska > Hi. > > Don does "push some buttons" for some of the active writers on Grovenet. > > I believe that is intentional. > > David > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Beverly Wilson wrote: > >> Thank you Don. I just knew you were the same Don >> >> Grovenet, I watch the subjects go by with interest. You all are part of a >> very bright group, but some seem to have a blind spot where Don't input >> is concerned. >> >> I am not into genealogy, but I attended school in Banks and Forest Grove >> and the University of Oregon. >> >> My ancestor in Washington County was William Geiger. He lived in Orchards >> and had a farm near Old Banks. >> >> When the railroad came the people put their town on skids and towed the >> buildings to the present location with teams of horses. >> >> Thanks for your explanation and for your interest. >> >> Deb > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/7abf6400/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 09:51:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:51:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that kills, it is the person behind the gun? Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, but fear it 'self? Would that be true? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 7/15/2010 12:34:50 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct The article does a good job of drawing the line between the "patriotic resistance" perspective and the Administration's perspective as quoted in the article. 1. The Administration denies that the cause of our enemy is just, or that it has any religious merit. "Nor do we describe our enemy as jihadists or Islamists because jihad is holy struggle, a legitimate tenet of Islam meaning to purify oneself of one s community." 2. The Administration affirms that we are at war with those people who direct violence against American, we are not at war with Muslims in general. "Moreover, describing our enemy in religious terms would lend credence to the lie propagated by al Qaeda and its affiliates to justify terrorism, that the United States is somehow at war against Islam. The reality, of course, is that we have never been and will never be at war with Islam. 3. The Bush Administration's use of the words "War on Terror" is a wrong description of our battle. "The President's strategy is absolutely clear about the threat we face. Our enemy is not terrorism because terrorism is but a tactic."... "Our enemy is not terror because terror is a state of mind and, as Americans, we refuse to live in fear," In contrast the writer says that 1. This is a religious war 2. We are at war with Muslims in general 3. We must be afraid for our very survival. "The bottom line: Islam and terrorism are intertwined. America will never understand its enemy, an enemy dedicated to its destruction, unless it comes to grips with that fact." That may say it all. President Obama wants to focus our energy on separating the those who would attack us, from the populations where they hide. The patriotic resistance wants America to live in fear, as they lash out at all Muslims and ensure that all of them hate us. When dealing with a guerilla war it is the difference between using a marksman to take out a target and using "carpet bombing". David On Jul 14, 2010, at 11:26 PM, donkelly wrote: > http://www.resistnet.com/forum/topics/obama-cleanses-the-terrorism > > Day by day, the facts come out. A parthinian shot. > > Good evening, until Thursday. > > > > Don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/c3d6aa85/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 10:11:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:11:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> New York Post is correct Jeff. Murdock owns companies all over the world, including cheap market tabloids. Anything for a buck. Thank you. Ann Coulter is very sharp, and she says a lot of things a relatively few people don't like. I just say the boring old thing, "if the shoe fits........." Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 11:48:48 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I don't think you can focus on FOX particularly, [...] I don't think I ever said I was focusing on FOX exclusively. > Remember in 2008 it was the Washington Post, owned by > Murdock, that endorsed Obama for president. In an > interview Murdock said, "yes, he is a Rock Star and > I want to see if he will walk the walk." The Washington Post isn't owned by Rupert Murdoch. I think you're thinking of the New York Post. The Washington Post is owned (and has been since 1933) the Graham family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post > That is just one reason why I distrust some of the things > the FOX crew says. I can't tell if it is their opinion, > or Murdock's That's one of *many* reasons I distrust what they say. > On the other hand, it seems that Ann Coulter can say about > anything she wants to say. And says it very well. Perhaps > her nickname should be BARB I She's a lowly creature, in my opinion. > If it is a news organization and it does not report news, > good and bad, what good is it? Isn't it irrelevant? Indeed. I'm pretty sure that's the point I was making. > Whatever happened to What Where When and How? Oh, FOX (and many others of their ilk) left those foundations of quality journalism behind a *long* time ago (for those that ever made use of them). Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/0aa67db3/attachment-0001.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 10:14:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:14:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F41F6.000027.01452@DON-B2514E06367> So you watch FOX news occasionally? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/14/2010 10:16:35 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Yes, not newsworthy if it makes the president look bad? If that's what they think their audience wants, then sure. News agencies have the right to pick and choose what they report -- just like news consumers have the right to consume news from more than one source. > Is that the basis for good news? Not in my book. In my opinion, that makes them contextually irrelevant, at least as far as news about the President is concerned. However, they may do a fantastic job covering other subjects. So, while I may not agree with one facet of their reporting choices, that doesn't mean I toss them out entirely. The exception is when a news source rarely gets anything right or there's not a clear enough distinction between reporting and op-ed (Fox comes to mind) or they use their op-ed of infotainment portions as the basis for reporting the news on their reporting segments (rather than using true independent sources for the info and fact-checking their info). You and I have had plenty of exchanges about things like this in the past so I don't think you're really driving at a point that's contained within these questions. What are you really getting at? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/d602d895/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 11:22:53 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > New York Post is correct Jeff. Murdock owns companies > all over the world, including cheap market tabloids. > Anything for a buck. The great American dream. The American way. Capitalism at its finest. What was the problem again? > Ann Coulter is very sharp, [...] Yes, she cuts like a knife. > [...] and she says a lot of things a relatively > few people don't like. Yes, I'm sure she has her loyal fan base, but to stretch it and say that "relatively few people don't like [what she says]" is grossly overstating both her popularity and the reception her words receive. Her loyal fan base is the conservative fringe. I think, however, they forget that she's stated very clearly she's not interested in doing good, making a difference, or being a source for positive change, but rather she's in it to "stir the pot" and "doesn't pretend to be impartial or balanced" [1]. She also plainly states that she's mean-spirited and bigoted -- "I'm a Christian first and a mean-spirited, bigoted conservative second, and don't you ever forget it." [2] In an odd twist, she's even against a woman's right to vote saying that "If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president. It's kind of a pipe dream, it's a personal fantasy of mine, but I don't think it's going to happen. And it is a good way of making the point that women are voting so stupidly, at least single women." [3] Coulter is from the same mold as other FOX infotainers -- Beck, Limbaugh, etc. She isn't in it for anything but the money. She doesn't care who she destroys along the way, if she uses truth or lies to do it, or if she has to stoop to fear and hate mongering in the process. This was written only 3 days after 9/11 [4]: "It is preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." It's all about the ratings, the publicity, and the book sales -- nothing else. [1] - http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/coulter.pre.dea.html [2] - http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services-miscellaneous-business /4699951-1.html [3] - http://www.observer.com/2007/coulter-culture [4] - http://web.archive.org/web/20010914225811/http://www.nationalreview.com/coul ter/coulter091301.shtml Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 11:38:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:38:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See References: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> <34E94755-A58A-4969-8EFB-ECC1D7CA78DC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C3F5591.000043.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Amazing and educational. Don PS: Being without a moon for about two weeks, I have missed it. But it seems to be returning to our view Friday night. Did anyone else notice the moon was hiding over the horizon? -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/15/2010 11:07:07 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See Fascinating. We are so lucky to be living on a planet that constantly amazes us and teaches us new things. Katie On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128389587 > July 15, 2010 by Robert Krulwich > > Step outside on a clear day this summer and look up. What do you > see? Blue. > And maybe a plane or a bird up there, but otherwise ... nothing. Or > so you > think. It turns out that right above you, totally invisible, is an > enormous > herd of animal life. There are so many creatures up there, they are > so busy, > so athletic, so tiny, that we had to fly up and give you a peek. > > When British scientist Jason Chapman told us (listen to the radio > piece or > watch our video) there are 3 billion insects passing over your head > in a > summer month, he was talking about his survey in Great Britain. > Closer to > the equator, he says, the numbers should rise. He wouldn't be > surprised, for > example, that in the sky over Houston or New Orleans there could be 6 > billion critters passing overhead in a month. > > What Are They Doing Up There? > > Sometimes insects and spiders need to leave where they are and go > someplace > else for food, for sex, for space. For a variety of reasons bugs > disperse. > You can see them launching themselves, says entomologist Matt > Greenstone: > > "They just stand straight up on their little back legs and just by > doing > that they can get part of their body up into this layer [of air] > where it's > more turbulent and then, if you can get a ride on a parcel that's > going up, > you can get off the ground and then if you're lucky you can get > carried > aloft." > > How High Can They Go? > > Writing in American Entomologist recently (Spring 2010 "Frequent Flyer > Miles"), May Berenbaum says pilots have long known insects can fly > very > high. "Beginning in 1926, Tanglefoot-coated slides were affixed to > airplanes > to collect insects, with famed aviator Charles Lindbergh > contributing to the > data-collection effort by carrying sticky glass slides on his 1933 > flight > crossing the Atlantic at 2,460 to 5,410 feet and over Greenland at > 7,870 to > 12,135 feet." > > Now 12,000 feet is pretty high, but the all-time champ is, of all > things, a > termite! > > In Berenbaum's article, she mentions a 1961 study by J.L. Gressit > in which > an insect trap was placed on a Super-Constellation airplane. That > plane flew > 116,684 miles sampling the air, catching whatever was up there, and, > Berenbaum says, "the trap managed to capture a single termite at > 19,000 > feet." That's the record. > > You wonder how a little critter can survive the wind, the cold, the > absence > of company. "Wind dispersal at great heights can be rough on insects," > Berenbaum writes. And yet they are very tough. Of 1,610 insects > captured by > another team of scientists led by L.R. Taylor in 1960, 97 percent > were alive > and undamaged, 2 percent were alive and damaged, and 1 percent were > dead. > The flying corpse was, it turns out, a rarity. > > If all this interests you, check out Insectopedia by Hugh Raffles, > just > published, whose essay on bugs in the air (Chapter 1) is how I > bumped into > this subject. Raffles (briefly), Berenbaum and Greenstone all > appear in our > radio story; Benjamin Arthur's animations are lovingly and > meticulously > (OMG, does he work hard) constructed (and he drew the heroic > British mouse > in an earlier post). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/8ef7e6d7/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 11:55:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:55:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> I cannot assume, but perhaps you or others in the group have an interest in this issue. http://www.neveragainisnow.com/wakeup/index php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=130 To me it just seems to be the right thing to do, another right thing to support. Don Thank you for the comments. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 11:23:35 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > New York Post is correct Jeff. Murdock owns companies > all over the world, including cheap market tabloids. > Anything for a buck. The great American dream. The American way. Capitalism at its finest. What was the problem again? > Ann Coulter is very sharp, [...] Yes, she cuts like a knife. > [...] and she says a lot of things a relatively > few people don't like. Yes, I'm sure she has her loyal fan base, but to stretch it and say that "relatively few people don't like [what she says]" is grossly overstating both her popularity and the reception her words receive. Her loyal fan base is the conservative fringe. I think, however, they forget that she's stated very clearly she's not interested in doing good, making a difference, or being a source for positive change, but rather she's in it to "stir the pot" and "doesn't pretend to be impartial or balanced" [1]. She also plainly states that she's mean-spirited and bigoted -- "I'm a Christian first and a mean-spirited, bigoted conservative second, and don't you ever forget it." [2] In an odd twist, she's even against a woman's right to vote saying that "If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president. It's kind of a pipe dream, it's a personal fantasy of mine, but I don't think it's going to happen. And it is a good way of making the point that women are voting so stupidly, at least single women." [3] Coulter is from the same mold as other FOX infotainers -- Beck, Limbaugh, etc. She isn't in it for anything but the money. She doesn't care who she destroys along the way, if she uses truth or lies to do it, or if she has to stoop to fear and hate mongering in the process. This was written only 3 days after 9/11 [4]: "It is preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." It's all about the ratings, the publicity, and the book sales -- nothing else. [1] - http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/coulter.pre.dea.html [2] - http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services-miscellaneous-business /4699951-1.html [3] - http://www.observer.com/2007/coulter-culture [4] - http://web.archive.org/web/20010914225811/http://www.nationalreview.com/coul ter/coulter091301.shtml Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/d1522a3f/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 12:12:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:12:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Watch: Liberal Media Freaks Out Over Obama Collapse Message-ID: <4C3F5DA1.00004D.01452@DON-B2514E06367> -------Original Message------- From: Western Journalism Date: 7/15/2010 11:29:43 AM To: ocollaugh at comcast.net Subject: Watch: Liberal Media Freaks Out Over Obama Collapse Do not miss a single issue, add wcj at westernjournalism-info.com to your buddy list, contact list or safe list. Do not reply to this e-mail. If you wish to contact our staff, please use the contact us link at the bottom of this e-mail WATCH: Liberal Media Freaks Out Over Obama Collapse by Greg Gutfeld, Big Hollywood So, if you watched Red Eye last night, you heard us mentioning a poll, reporting that roughly six out of ten Americans have lost faith in our Commander in Chief. Here?s liberal radio host Bill Press explaining that result. And that?s the left, in a nutshell: ?When our stupid ideas fail, it?s not our fault, it?s yours.? Or: it?s not Obama, it?s you. Yes, damn you America for expecting competence from your leaders! Damn you America for not embracing 10 percent unemployment! Damn you America for speaking your mind about health care, when you should have just shut up! And damn you America for being so hard on our Adorable-in-chief! This kills me, because if you know Bill Press, you remember no one was more vile to President Bush than that dude. Being too critical, too negative and too quick to judge? That?s Press?s career in ten words. Read More and Comment: Obama Hates the Press and Journalists Can't Handle That Truth By Dan Gainor, Business & Media Institute Love is a many splendored thing ? except when the feeling isn?t mutual Then, love stinks. That?s the position journalists find themselves in as their love for President Barack Obama has been a one-way street. The rejection is much harsher than screening their calls. Obama has done everything to keep them away except take out a restraining order. The latest examples of mistreatment include actions by both the Defense Department and government agencies in the Gulf clean-up. In both cases, journalists have been restricted in ways that have made scribes scream. No wonder they call it a ?crush.? The American media fell in love at first sight with Obama when he gave what CBS called his ?electrifying? keynote speech before the 2004 Democratic National Convention. Then journalists wooed him throughout the presidential campaign ? with election news stories looking like Democratic campaign ads. Now nearly a year-and-a-half into the marriage, they?ve discovered an awful truth about modern love ? Obama is the most anti-press president in modern history. Their love story gone bad is so heart-wrenching that it could be a country song about how he done them wrong. Only it?s not; these are current events. Read More and Comment: Newsweek Reporter David A. Graham Runs Interference for Black Panthers by John Sexton, Big Journalism Today?s case study in Newsweek?s shameless bias disguised as news reporting comes via David A. Graham?s article ?The New Black Panther Party Is the New ACORN? published yesterday. It begins with this: ?As voter intimidation exercises go, it wasn?t much.? And it gets worse from there. The real story according to Graham is how a minor case of voter intimidation was overblown by conservatives media outlets to attack the White House. Graham links to five stories at three different sites?Hot Air, Michelle Malkin, and Red State?as proof that conservative blogs ?can?t get enough.? He mentions that the incident was caught on tape but, strangely, doesn?t include the footage on the page or even recommend that his readers view it. Could it be that the sight of a man brandishing a baton in front of a polling place is a bit too incriminating for the narrative he?s trying to spin? Then, out of nowhere, Graham compares the incident to the ACORN investigation: So how did the incident become a replay of the ACORN scandal? There?s some resemblance between the two: an organization with unacceptable practices and a vague connection to the Obama administration (through voter registration drives in the ACORN case and Justice Department litigation in the Panther case) becomes a tool for critics of the White House to attack it as corrupt and illegitimate. But as in the ACORN case, the scandal is minimal (much of the ACORN hit has been discredited)?and the allegations against So according to David A. Graham, ACORN and the Black Panther case are both non-scandals that became ?a tool for critics of the White House.? It?s not as if I can detect any point of view here, but this is still a news magazine, right? Read More and Comment: Obama Administration Approves First Direct Taxpayer Funding of Abortion By Susan Jones, CNSNews If you want proof that President Obama's Executive Order on taxpayer-funded abortion was a sham, look no further than Pennsylvania, says House Republican Leader John Boehner (Ohio). Boehner and other Republicans point to reports that the Health and Human Services Department is giving Pennsylvania $160 million to set up a new high-risk insurance pool that will cover any abortion that is legal in the state. "The fact that the high-risk pool insurance program in Pennsylvania will use federal taxpayer dollars to fund abortions is unconscionable," Boehner said in a statement on Tuesday. ?Just last month at the White House, I asked President Obama to provide the American people with a progress report on the implementation of his Executive Order, which purports to ban taxpayer-funding of abortions. Unfortunately, the President provided no information, and the American people are still waiting for answers." President Obama pledged that under his health care plan ?no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.? Read More and Comment: Sent to ocollaugh at comcast.net. Unsubscribe | Update Profile | Forward to a Friend -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/2440cc71/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 12:22:55 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:22:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > kills, it is the person behind the gun? I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already understands this tired argument. > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > but fear it 'self? That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate in practical terms. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 15 12:29:03 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See In-Reply-To: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> References: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> Message-ID: <130CEEEC-4C8E-4EDE-B25F-E41E3652844A@teleport.com> Ferrry interestink! This would help explain why new volcanic islands (and the blast area around Mt. St. Helens) were recolonized so quickly. I had known that baby spiders could "loft" for miles, but termites? Maybe that was a winged female. Wish the letter had gone into a little more depth about species. WW On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128389587 > July 15, 2010 by Robert Krulwich > > Step outside on a clear day this summer and look up. What do you > see? Blue. > And maybe a plane or a bird up there, but otherwise ... nothing. Or > so you > think. It turns out that right above you, totally invisible, is an > enormous > herd of animal life. There are so many creatures up there, they are > so busy, > so athletic, so tiny, that we had to fly up and give you a peek. > > When British scientist Jason Chapman told us (listen to the radio > piece or > watch our video) there are 3 billion insects passing over your head > in a > summer month, he was talking about his survey in Great Britain. > Closer to > the equator, he says, the numbers should rise. He wouldn't be > surprised, for > example, that in the sky over Houston or New Orleans there could be 6 > billion critters passing overhead in a month. > > What Are They Doing Up There? > > Sometimes insects and spiders need to leave where they are and go > someplace > else for food, for sex, for space. For a variety of reasons bugs > disperse. > You can see them launching themselves, says entomologist Matt > Greenstone: > > "They just stand straight up on their little back legs and just by > doing > that they can get part of their body up into this layer [of air] > where it's > more turbulent and then, if you can get a ride on a parcel that's > going up, > you can get off the ground and then if you're lucky you can get > carried > aloft." > > How High Can They Go? > > Writing in American Entomologist recently (Spring 2010 "Frequent Flyer > Miles"), May Berenbaum says pilots have long known insects can fly > very > high. "Beginning in 1926, Tanglefoot-coated slides were affixed to > airplanes > to collect insects, with famed aviator Charles Lindbergh > contributing to the > data-collection effort by carrying sticky glass slides on his 1933 > flight > crossing the Atlantic at 2,460 to 5,410 feet and over Greenland at > 7,870 to > 12,135 feet." > > Now 12,000 feet is pretty high, but the all-time champ is, of all > things, a > termite! > > In Berenbaum's article, she mentions a 1961 study by J.L. Gressit > in which > an insect trap was placed on a Super-Constellation airplane. That > plane flew > 116,684 miles sampling the air, catching whatever was up there, and, > Berenbaum says, "the trap managed to capture a single termite at > 19,000 > feet." That's the record. > > You wonder how a little critter can survive the wind, the cold, the > absence > of company. "Wind dispersal at great heights can be rough on insects," > Berenbaum writes. And yet they are very tough. Of 1,610 insects > captured by > another team of scientists led by L.R. Taylor in 1960, 97 percent > were alive > and undamaged, 2 percent were alive and damaged, and 1 percent were > dead. > The flying corpse was, it turns out, a rarity. > > If all this interests you, check out Insectopedia by Hugh Raffles, > just > published, whose essay on bugs in the air (Chapter 1) is how I > bumped into > this subject. Raffles (briefly), Berenbaum and Greenstone all > appear in our > radio story; Benjamin Arthur's animations are lovingly and > meticulously > (OMG, does he work hard) constructed (and he drew the heroic > British mouse > in an earlier post). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 12:32:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:32:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Gulf oil spill (bootleg?) Message-ID: <4C3F6249.000056.01452@DON-B2514E06367> I don't know the date of this video, but it should provide some visual perspective of this environmental catastrophe. http://www.impeachobamacampaign com/oil-spill-the-video-obama-doesnt-want-you-to-see/?utm_source=Floyd+Report &utm_campaign=90531ff6a8-FR_7_15_107_15_2010&utm_medium=email Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/603b8afc/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 12:41:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:41:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 million people. Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. Never mind. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct Don, > From: donkelly > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > kills, it is the person behind the gun? I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already understands this tired argument. > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > but fear it 'self? That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate in practical terms. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/0990c20e/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 12:52:55 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:52:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Gulf oil spill (bootleg?) In-Reply-To: <4C3F6249.000056.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3F6249.000056.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00df01cb2457$538dfcc0$faa9f640$@com> > From: donkelly > > I don't know the date of this video, but it should > provide some visual perspective of this environmental > catastrophe. And, a link to the video for those that either can't get the link to work or would rather not visit the site Don linked to, but still want to watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Xtie1fRxw Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 12:52:55 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:52:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > To me it just seems to be the right thing to do, > another right thing to support. I don't think a "my way or no way" approach to the issue is going to result in any measurable movement in the issues Israel faces. Israel isn't faultless in any of this. In fact, just the other day, I happened upon a report with some sickening details about the crimes Israel perpetrated on Palestine in the attacks in 2006 and then again from December 2008 to January 2009 which include the unlawful use of white phosphorus and dangerously high concentrations of molybdenum, mercury, cadmium, tungsten, and cobalt. Rain of Fire - Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza http://www.hrw.org/node/81760 Researchers: Israel Poisons Palestinian Soil, Newborns http://www.livecitizen.com/2009/12/researchers-israel-poisons-palestinian-so il-newborns/ Gaza Strip, soil has been contaminated due to bombings: population in danger http://www.newweapons.org/files/pressrelease_nwrc_20091216_eng.pdf Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 13:22:57 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:22:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00f101cb245b$848602b0$8d920810$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? Are you asking or telling? > No matter the candy coating, they are still intent > on killing all of us. I'm not convinced they are intent on "killing all of us". I'm convinced they're intent on keeping us in a constant state of fear -- something certain infotainers are also intent on. > Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the > population of America to 100 million people. The entire planet could benefit from an overall reduction in population. > Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with > brown people. Careful, you might be giving away more than you intend... Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 13:25:14 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:25:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <5AA33EB9-CE8F-41E5-BEA3-1470DD3C16B1@verizon.net> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:51 AM, donkelly wrote: > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that kills, it is the person behind the gun? That should sit well with the NRA. Also, it is not the hostage, nor the person the killer is hiding behind. > > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. Terrorism isn't a person, it is an activity. By focusing on the people who are the problem, there is a greater chance to hit the target. Instead of the more typical "swatting at air" of the "war on terror". > > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, but fear it 'self? Not likely. He is after the people who would do us harm. He isn't attacking the people who have given in to their fear. When the police storm a hostage situation they command everyone to "get on the floor". Obama is trying to get the innocent bystanders to distance themselves from the bad guys. I have no problem with that, because it makes the bad guys into better targets. The writer said, " Islam and terrorism are intertwined. " I guess they want every Muslim to become a target? > > Would that be true? What appears to be true, is that Obama is working to separate the "fish" from the "water" in which they swim, to make them easier to catch. That is in direct contrast to those who would muddy and stir the waters. David > > > Don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 13:35:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:35:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. Israel was defending itself. Don PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible sources, or from Hamas? -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 12:53:47 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > To me it just seems to be the right thing to do, > another right thing to support. I don't think a "my way or no way" approach to the issue is going to result in any measurable movement in the issues Israel faces. Israel isn't faultless in any of this. In fact, just the other day, I happened upon a report with some sickening details about the crimes Israel perpetrated on Palestine in the attacks in 2006 and then again from December 2008 to January 2009 which include the unlawful use of white phosphorus and dangerously high concentrations of molybdenum, mercury, cadmium, tungsten, and cobalt. Rain of Fire - Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza http://www.hrw.org/node/81760 Researchers: Israel Poisons Palestinian Soil, Newborns http://www.livecitizen.com/2009/12/researchers-israel-poisons-palestinian-so il-newborns/ Gaza Strip, soil has been contaminated due to bombings: population in danger http://www.newweapons.org/files/pressrelease_nwrc_20091216_eng.pdf Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 90565 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/0542ab6e/attachment-0003.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Jul 15 13:52:23 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." Something wrong with him, Don? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 million people. Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. Never mind. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct Don, > From: donkelly > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > kills, it is the person behind the gun? I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already understands this tired argument. > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > but fear it 'self? That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate in practical terms. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 13:52:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:52:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths Message-ID: <00f401cb245f$c22dddf0$468999d0$@com> Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100715/sc_afp/australiaenvironmentcoralreef July 15, 2010 SYDNEY (AFP) - Australian scientists have discovered bizarre prehistoric sea life hundreds of metres below the Great Barrier Reef, in an unprecedented mission to document species under threat from ocean warming. Ancient sharks, giant oil fish, swarms of crustaceans and a primitive shell-dwelling squid species called the Nautilus were among the astonishing life captured by remote controlled cameras at Osprey Reef. Lead researcher Justin Marshall Thursday said his team had also found several unidentified fish species, including "prehistoric six-gilled sharks" using special low-light sensitive cameras which were custom designed to trawl the ocean floor, 1,400 metres (4,593 feet) below sea level. "Some of the creatures that we've seen we were sort of expecting, some of them we weren't expecting, and some of them we haven't identified yet," said Marshall, from the University of Queensland. "There was a shark that I really wasn't expecting, which was a false cat shark, which has a really odd dorsal fin." The team used a tuna head on a stick to attract the creatures, which live beyond the reach of sunlight. Marshall said the research had been made more urgent by recent oil spills affecting the world heritage-listed Great Barrier Reef, and the growing threat to its biodiversity by the warming and acidification of the world's oceans. "One of the things that we're trying to do by looking at the life in the deep sea is discover what's there in the first place, before we wipe it out," Marshall told AFP. "We simply do not know what life is down there, and our cameras can now record the behaviour and life in Australia's largest biosphere, the deep sea," he added. Scientists have already warned that the 345,000-square kilometre (133,000-square mile) attraction is in serious jeopardy, as global warming and chemical runoff threaten to kill marine species and cause disease outbreaks. Chinese coal ship Shen Neng 1 gouged a three-metre scar in the reef when it ran aground whilst attempting to take a short cut on April 3, leaking tonnes of oil into a famed nature sanctuary and breeding site. About 200,000 litres of heavy fuel oil spewed into waters south of the reef last March when shipping containers full of fertiliser tumbled off the Hong Kong-flagged Pacific Adventurer during a cyclone, piercing its hull. It was one of Australia's worst ever oil spills. Marshall said the cameras would now be sent to the sludge-ridden Gulf of Mexico to monitor the effects of the oil spill there on marine life. From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 13:53:48 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:53:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... Message-ID: Grovenetters, It's me again, issuing yet another warning that this list is quickly dissolving into chaotic babble again, due to the efforts of one, very rude, insensitive, egocentric member who refuses to accept the frequent outcries that his posts are out of place and unwanted on this list. Don Kelly is beyond rude, he is an intentional thorn in the side of Grovenet. By his own admittance, he likes to stir things up. By his own admittance he does not communicate well. He will not listen to reason. He will not accept the truth. He will not be stilled by member comments to cease and desist with his unending attacks on the President, Progressives, Democrats, Liberals, and Truth. He is a quintessential example of the stereotypical follower of untruths (as outlined in an earlier post by Katie" see [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly" By: David Dayen). Don intentionally posts untruths and sits back and has a good time watching the list dissolve into chaos. We had a good run with local issues without him, now he is back to his old tricks with a vengeance. Can you accept what's happening??? Will you sit idly by while he makes another bold, frontal attack on the good nature of this list? As long as he continues to ignore our pleas to stop, he will continue to disrupt the list. I think we've been too kind and too accepting of his tactics. Time to ask him to leave us alone. Tell him to find another forum with a more political bent. Get him off this list. And to those of you who continue to respond to him, although I have deep respect for you all, I have to say that you are the enablers here. You help perpetuate his vile agenda. You give him his soap box. You reward him with your responses. And to that I must tell you that "you have become part of the problem". You must stop if you value Grovenet enough to want it to survive. If you continue, it will be a sign that you (like Don) simply don't care what happens here. Continue and you will be as responsible as folks like Don for it's demise. Your inability to dismiss his incessant posts outright only perpetuates the problem. It makes it worse. As intelligent and civil as you are, you don't demonstrate your understanding of the seriousness of your complicity in this matter. Certainly you can't dismiss the tone of some earlier responders on the list, and the fact that many had already reached their limit and were ready to unsubscribe. If more people leave the list, you must accept some of the responsibility for their departure. I know you are aware of the consequences, are you willing to let it happen? I have tried every way I can to redirect this list so it lives up to it's mission to deal with local issues of interest. Don fails to see the error of his ways (or more, appropriately said, doesn't care what the mission is) and continues to batter away at what is left of normal discourse. The issues surrounding driving pet peeves, and school issues were a glimmer of hope that we could continue and even thrive with issues of a more local flavor. New people joined the conversation. It was fun again. Well, that didn't last long. Don is an unwelcome guest as far as I'm concerned. He won't behave. He won't adapt to our local needs. He's egocentric and controlling. He wants (and needs to be) the center of attention. I make another plea to you to give him a strong message with your silence. A person with his ego can ill afford to stay on a list where he's unrecognized. I'm making a personal plea to him to leave us. You are a constant disruption Don, take this hint and go. Find a suitable political forum where you can rage your continuing war on political reality with all your fanciful, outrageous, and unfounded issues with abandon. Leave us alone! I care about Grovenet people, I hope that's obvious. I care when it comes under attack from those who don't care. I'm fighting back. I want a return to normalcy. I know I'm not alone. We need to take back control, but I can't do it alone. We are a community. Let's act like one and do the right thing. jimz From debbratland at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 14:00:07 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:00:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been in what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and > adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." > > Something wrong with him, Don? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? > > > > No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. > > > > Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 > million people. > > > > Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. > > > > Never mind. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Jeff Howden > > Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > > > Don, > > > > > From: donkelly > > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > > > kills, it is the person behind the gun? > > > > I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already > > understands this tired argument. > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > > > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. > > > > Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > > > > > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > > > but fear it 'self? > > > > That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate > > in practical terms. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Jul 15 14:31:09 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:31:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of his life. Mea culpa. Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. Thanks, Deb. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Debra Bratland Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been in what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and > adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." > > Something wrong with him, Don? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? > > > > No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. > > > > Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 > million people. > > > > Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. > > > > Never mind. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Jeff Howden > > Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > > > Don, > > > > > From: donkelly > > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > > > kills, it is the person behind the gun? > > > > I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already > > understands this tired argument. > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > > > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. > > > > Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > > > > > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > > > but fear it 'self? > > > > That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate > > in practical terms. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 14:42:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:42:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... References: Message-ID: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> That is not what you want Jim. If I read you correctly, you want to stop free exchange of Ideas. You don like people who find the feet of clay of people whom you believe without question. Yet thank you for your opinion. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jim Zaleski Date: 7/15/2010 1:54:50 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... Grovenetters, It's me again, issuing yet another warning that this list is quickly dissolving into chaotic babble again, due to the efforts of one, very rude, insensitive, egocentric member who refuses to accept the frequent outcries that his posts are out of place and unwanted on this list. Don Kelly is beyond rude, he is an intentional thorn in the side of Grovenet. By his own admittance, he likes to stir things up. By his own admittance he does not communicate well. He will not listen to reason. He will not accept the truth. He will not be stilled by member comments to cease and desist with his unending attacks on the President, Progressives, Democrats, Liberals, and Truth. He is a quintessential example of the stereotypical follower of untruths (as outlined in an earlier post by Katie" see [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly" By: David Dayen). Don intentionally posts untruths and sits back and has a good time watching the list dissolve into chaos. We had a good run with local issues without him, now he is back to his old tricks with a vengeance. Can you accept what's happening??? Will you sit idly by while he makes another bold, frontal attack on the good nature of this list? As long as he continues to ignore our pleas to stop, he will continue to disrupt the list. I think we've been too kind and too accepting of his tactics. Time to ask him to leave us alone. Tell him to find another forum with a more political bent. Get him off this list. And to those of you who continue to respond to him, although I have deep respect for you all, I have to say that you are the enablers here. You help perpetuate his vile agenda. You give him his soap box. You reward him with your responses. And to that I must tell you that "you have become part of the problem". You must stop if you value Grovenet enough to want it to survive. If you continue, it will be a sign that you (like Don) simply don't care what happens here. Continue and you will be as responsible as folks like Don for it's demise. Your inability to dismiss his incessant posts outright only perpetuates the problem. It makes it worse. As intelligent and civil as you are, you don't demonstrate your understanding of the seriousness of your complicity in this matter. Certainly you can't dismiss the tone of some earlier responders on the list, and the fact that many had already reached their limit and were ready to unsubscribe. If more people leave the list, you must accept some of the responsibility for their departure. I know you are aware of the consequences, are you willing to let it happen? I have tried every way I can to redirect this list so it lives up to it's mission to deal with local issues of interest. Don fails to see the error of his ways (or more, appropriately said, doesn't care what the mission is) and continues to batter away at what is left of normal discourse. The issues surrounding driving pet peeves, and school issues were a glimmer of hope that we could continue and even thrive with issues of a more local flavor. New people joined the conversation. It was fun again. Well, that didn't last long. Don is an unwelcome guest as far as I'm concerned. He won't behave. He won't adapt to our local needs. He's egocentric and controlling. He wants (and needs to be) the center of attention. I make another plea to you to give him a strong message with your silence. A person with his ego can ill afford to stay on a list where he's unrecognized. I'm making a personal plea to him to leave us. You are a constant disruption Don, take this hint and go. Find a suitable political forum where you can rage your continuing war on political reality with all your fanciful, outrageous, and unfounded issues with abandon. Leave us alone! I care about Grovenet people, I hope that's obvious. I care when it comes under attack from those who don't care. I'm fighting back. I want a return to normalcy. I know I'm not alone. We need to take back control, but I can't do it alone. We are a community. Let's act like one and do the right thing. jimz _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/1fee54c4/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 14:17:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:17:58 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C3F7B05.00008B.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Nope, got more than five Indians I know of from records as ancestors. Behind those grandmothers and great grandmothers and great great grandmothers, there was a bunch more we have no records on. Even if I had no Indian blood, the answer would still be no. When government officials talk about zero population growth, you best pay attention to them because they ain't kidding. All they need is majority support, and get some ominous laws passed. The death panels are just the lowest rung on their ladder. Ignore their agenda at your risk. Don -------Original Message------- From: Debra Bratland Date: 7/15/2010 2:00:21 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been in what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. Deb Bratland On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and > adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." > > Something wrong with him, Don? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? > > > > No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. > > > > Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 > million people. > > > > Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. > > > > Never mind. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Jeff Howden > > Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > > > Don, > > > > > From: donkelly > > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that > > > kills, it is the person behind the gun? > > > > I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already > > understands this tired argument. > > > > > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe > > > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. > > > > Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? > > > > > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, > > > but fear it 'self? > > > > That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's accurate > > in practical terms. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/efc72563/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 14:47:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:47:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths References: <00f401cb245f$c22dddf0$468999d0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F81E7.000091.01452@DON-B2514E06367> This fits into a movie produced on the history channel awhile back, about a very large squid. Interesting and exciting. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 1:53:39 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100715/sc_afp/australiaenvironmentcoralreef July 15, 2010 SYDNEY (AFP) - Australian scientists have discovered bizarre prehistoric sea life hundreds of metres below the Great Barrier Reef, in an unprecedented mission to document species under threat from ocean warming. Ancient sharks, giant oil fish, swarms of crustaceans and a primitive shell-dwelling squid species called the Nautilus were among the astonishing life captured by remote controlled cameras at Osprey Reef. Lead researcher Justin Marshall Thursday said his team had also found several unidentified fish species, including "prehistoric six-gilled sharks" using special low-light sensitive cameras which were custom designed to trawl the ocean floor, 1,400 metres (4,593 feet) below sea level. "Some of the creatures that we've seen we were sort of expecting, some of them we weren't expecting, and some of them we haven't identified yet," said Marshall, from the University of Queensland. "There was a shark that I really wasn't expecting, which was a false cat shark, which has a really odd dorsal fin." The team used a tuna head on a stick to attract the creatures, which live beyond the reach of sunlight. Marshall said the research had been made more urgent by recent oil spills affecting the world heritage-listed Great Barrier Reef, and the growing threat to its biodiversity by the warming and acidification of the world's oceans. "One of the things that we're trying to do by looking at the life in the deep sea is discover what's there in the first place, before we wipe it out," Marshall told AFP. "We simply do not know what life is down there, and our cameras can now record the behaviour and life in Australia's largest biosphere, the deep sea," he added. Scientists have already warned that the 345,000-square kilometre (133,000-square mile) attraction is in serious jeopardy, as global warming and chemical runoff threaten to kill marine species and cause disease outbreaks. Chinese coal ship Shen Neng 1 gouged a three-metre scar in the reef when it ran aground whilst attempting to take a short cut on April 3, leaking tonnes of oil into a famed nature sanctuary and breeding site. About 200,000 litres of heavy fuel oil spewed into waters south of the reef last March when shipping containers full of fertiliser tumbled off the Hong Kong-flagged Pacific Adventurer during a cyclone, piercing its hull. It was one of Australia's worst ever oil spills. Marshall said the cameras would now be sent to the sludge-ridden Gulf of Mexico to monitor the effects of the oil spill there on marine life. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/eb077a60/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 14:52:59 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:52:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <011701cb2468$1a6c8770$4f459650$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. It also burns flesh. It renders farmland unusable by torching the soil and destroying the nutrients in the soil making it impossible to grow anything in it. It is also unlawful to use in warfare. > It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. Indeed it isn't, but the presence of many civilians didn't keep Israel from using them on many targets. > However the attack would not have happened if the > Palestinians had not fired as many as 8,000 rockets > into Israeli towns. > > Israel was defending itself. Israel went too far. > PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from > credible sources, or from Hamas? The source for the report was clearly outlined in the material I linked to. "Newweapons Committee is group of academics, researchers and media professionals focused on promoting risk assessment surveys on the effects upon individuals and population of the most recent kinds of weapons used in the course of wars. The group was born in the third quarter of 2006 after Israel-Lebanon conflict. The group is based on a consulting network of: - Doctors and Health Associations from Lebanon and Palestine who have produced the information and released it. - Biologists of the University of Genoa, Dibio and Dimes - Biologist of the University of Rome, Dept Biology - Chemists of the University of Ferrara, Dept Chemistry - Physicists of the Institute of Nuclear Physics and of the University of Turin - Medical Doctors in Genoa and Rome - Journalists and Free Lance Information - NGOs - With help from Epidemiologist, Anatomic pathologist" http://www.newweapons.org/?q=node/7 Further, Israel admits to the use of white phosphorus during multiple conflicts. Lebanon in 2006 http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-admits-using-phosphorus-bombs-during-war- in-lebanon-1.203078 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm Gaza in 2008/2009 (Operation Cast Lead) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece White phosphorus bombs were used in the attacks on a hospital and UN compound and doctors in the area treated dozens of civilians with injuries (burns) from these bombs. http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_military_confirms_the_use_of_white_phosp horus_bombs_in_the_Gaza_Strip Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Jul 15 15:23:00 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:23:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... In-Reply-To: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <011d01cb246c$4a39a1f0$deace5d0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > [...] You don like people who find the feet > of clay of people whom you believe without > question. No, that's not what this is about. This is about gilding the feet with manure and saying you're gilding it with gold. Keep the political nonsense off the list and find other ways to interact with the community. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 15:45:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:45:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <011701cb2468$1a6c8770$4f459650$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F8F87.0000A0.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Harretz News Harretz, despite some articles with spin, appears to be reliable. They have been around for a long time. The London Times I'm not as sure of. One claim 50 phosphores bombs were used but on the same page the investigation centers on one incident. One of the most insidious weapons used since 1950 was napalm. It was used to clear jungle of military units, but also struck villages. I would add hellfire missiles to that category, with the comment I believe both should not be used except on the open battlefield. Towns are out. Still phosphorus is part of armaments which have evidently not been totally banned, despite two conflicting stories.. Israel says they used it in accordance with legal guidelines. I would not totally support that argument as they should not use it in residential spaces.. Thank you for the resources Jeff. I shall study them further. Don , Dear don, Before the climactic U.S. House vote on health care reform this spring, President Barack Obama signed an executive order barring the use of federal funds to finance abortions. We in the pro-family movement immediately criticized the executive order as meaningless and unenforceable, something not worth the paper it was printed on. For this, we were called deceivers and liars. But now the Obama administration is giving $160 million dollars to Pennsylvania to set up a new high-risk insurance pool that will cover every abortion that is legal in the Keystone State. Read OneNewsNow story. In other words, if anyone has deceived the public, it is the president of the United States. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 2:54:00 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts,the misinformed believe lies more strongly Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. It also burns flesh. It renders farmland unusable by torching the soil and destroying the nutrients in the soil making it impossible to grow anything in it. It is also unlawful to use in warfare. > It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. Indeed it isn't, but the presence of many civilians didn't keep Israel from using them on many targets. > However the attack would not have happened if the > Palestinians had not fired as many as 8,000 rockets > into Israeli towns. > > Israel was defending itself. Israel went too far. > PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from > credible sources, or from Hamas? The source for the report was clearly outlined in the material I linked to. "Newweapons Committee is group of academics, researchers and media professionals focused on promoting risk assessment surveys on the effects upon individuals and population of the most recent kinds of weapons used in the course of wars. The group was born in the third quarter of 2006 after Israel-Lebanon conflict. The group is based on a consulting network of: - Doctors and Health Associations from Lebanon and Palestine who have produced the information and released it. - Biologists of the University of Genoa, Dibio and Dimes - Biologist of the University of Rome, Dept Biology - Chemists of the University of Ferrara, Dept Chemistry - Physicists of the Institute of Nuclear Physics and of the University of Turin - Medical Doctors in Genoa and Rome - Journalists and Free Lance Information - NGOs - With help from Epidemiologist, Anatomic pathologist" http://www.newweapons.org/?q=node/7 Further, Israel admits to the use of white phosphorus during multiple conflicts. Lebanon in 2006 http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-admits-using-phosphorus-bombs-during-war- in-lebanon-1.203078 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm Gaza in 2008/2009 (Operation Cast Lead) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece White phosphorus bombs were used in the attacks on a hospital and UN compound and doctors in the area treated dozens of civilians with injuries (burns) from these bombs. http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_military_confirms_the_use_of_white_phosp horus_bombs_in_the_Gaza_Strip Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/86b3bfab/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Jul 15 15:54:54 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:54:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E3056BBC@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ya know, Jim, I've always like Gov. Vic Atiyeh's line: "You can't legislate against stupidity." So, we have a birther here who also believes in death panels, worries about the brown people and gawd knows what else. Black helicopters. Etc. Personally, I'm a big tent guy. Also personally, I have profound respect for the excellent work (and that's what it is) of Jeff and David, the arch-debunkers. They are meticulous and right on. They have superb BS detectors. I have faith in the way truth defeats untruth, good overcomes evil, intelligence contrasts clearly with a lack of intelligence. We have seen, literally, hundreds of errors--flat out mistakes--not to mention outlandish claims...and the debunkers nail it every time. Good for them. They are a valuable community resource. My trigger finger on the delete button is also a sharply honed instrument. When I am not interested in matching wits with a defenseless person, that delete button comes in very handy. As Ol' Hoss would say, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it. Respectfully, Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zaleski Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 1:54 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... Grovenetters, It's me again, issuing yet another warning that this list is quickly dissolving into chaotic babble again, due to the efforts of one, very rude, insensitive, egocentric member who refuses to accept the frequent outcries that his posts are out of place and unwanted on this list. Don Kelly is beyond rude, he is an intentional thorn in the side of Grovenet. By his own admittance, he likes to stir things up. By his own admittance he does not communicate well. He will not listen to reason. He will not accept the truth. He will not be stilled by member comments to cease and desist with his unending attacks on the President, Progressives, Democrats, Liberals, and Truth. He is a quintessential example of the stereotypical follower of untruths (as outlined in an earlier post by Katie" see [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly" By: David Dayen). Don intentionally posts untruths and sits back and has a good time watching the list dissolve into chaos. We had a good run with local issues without him, now he is back to his old tricks with a vengeance. Can you accept what's happening??? Will you sit idly by while he makes another bold, frontal attack on the good nature of this list? As long as he continues to ignore our pleas to stop, he will continue to disrupt the list. I think we've been too kind and too accepting of his tactics. Time to ask him to leave us alone. Tell him to find another forum with a more political bent. Get him off this list. And to those of you who continue to respond to him, although I have deep respect for you all, I have to say that you are the enablers here. You help perpetuate his vile agenda. You give him his soap box. You reward him with your responses. And to that I must tell you that "you have become part of the problem". You must stop if you value Grovenet enough to want it to survive. If you continue, it will be a sign that you (like Don) simply don't care what happens here. Continue and you will be as responsible as folks like Don for it's demise. Your inability to dismiss his incessant posts outright only perpetuates the problem. It makes it worse. As intelligent and civil as you are, you don't demonstrate your understanding of the seriousness of your complicity in this matter. Certainly you can't dismiss the tone of some earlier responders on the list, and the fact that many had already reached their limit and were ready to unsubscribe. If more people leave the list, you must accept some of the responsibility for their departure. I know you are aware of the consequences, are you willing to let it happen? I have tried every way I can to redirect this list so it lives up to it's mission to deal with local issues of interest. Don fails to see the error of his ways (or more, appropriately said, doesn't care what the mission is) and continues to batter away at what is left of normal discourse. The issues surrounding driving pet peeves, and school issues were a glimmer of hope that we could continue and even thrive with issues of a more local flavor. New people joined the conversation. It was fun again. Well, that didn't last long. Don is an unwelcome guest as far as I'm concerned. He won't behave. He won't adapt to our local needs. He's egocentric and controlling. He wants (and needs to be) the center of attention. I make another plea to you to give him a strong message with your silence. A person with his ego can ill afford to stay on a list where he's unrecognized. I'm making a personal plea to him to leave us. You are a constant disruption Don, take this hint and go. Find a suitable political forum where you can rage your continuing war on political reality with all your fanciful, outrageous, and unfounded issues with abandon. Leave us alone! I care about Grovenet people, I hope that's obvious. I care when it comes under attack from those who don't care. I'm fighting back. I want a return to normalcy. I know I'm not alone. We need to take back control, but I can't do it alone. We are a community. Let's act like one and do the right thing. jimz _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 15:58:16 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:58:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwanted garbage on this list... Message-ID: <1406955355.30478.1279234696183.JavaMail.root@vms170021> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100715/1def0695/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 16:03:58 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:03:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths In-Reply-To: <00f401cb245f$c22dddf0$468999d0$@com> References: <00f401cb245f$c22dddf0$468999d0$@com> Message-ID: <6578583F-0772-4C0A-8AD0-E011AB461766@verizon.net> Kudos to the scientists trying to document the species that are likely to disappear. A raspberry to the oil companies that claim they have the capacity to deal with oil spills who were lying through their teeth the whole time. Katie On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100715/sc_afp/ > australiaenvironmentcoralreef > July 15, 2010 > > SYDNEY (AFP) - Australian scientists have discovered bizarre > prehistoric sea > life hundreds of metres below the Great Barrier Reef, in an > unprecedented > mission to document species under threat from ocean warming. > > Ancient sharks, giant oil fish, swarms of crustaceans and a primitive > shell-dwelling squid species called the Nautilus were among the > astonishing > life captured by remote controlled cameras at Osprey Reef. > > Lead researcher Justin Marshall Thursday said his team had also found > several unidentified fish species, including "prehistoric six- > gilled sharks" > using special low-light sensitive cameras which were custom > designed to > trawl the ocean floor, 1,400 metres (4,593 feet) below sea level. > > "Some of the creatures that we've seen we were sort of expecting, > some of > them we weren't expecting, and some of them we haven't identified > yet," said > Marshall, from the University of Queensland. > > "There was a shark that I really wasn't expecting, which was a > false cat > shark, which has a really odd dorsal fin." > > The team used a tuna head on a stick to attract the creatures, > which live > beyond the reach of sunlight. > > Marshall said the research had been made more urgent by recent oil > spills > affecting the world heritage-listed Great Barrier Reef, and the > growing > threat to its biodiversity by the warming and acidification of the > world's > oceans. > > "One of the things that we're trying to do by looking at the life > in the > deep sea is discover what's there in the first place, before we > wipe it > out," Marshall told AFP. > > "We simply do not know what life is down there, and our cameras can > now > record the behaviour and life in Australia's largest biosphere, the > deep > sea," he added. > > Scientists have already warned that the 345,000-square kilometre > (133,000-square mile) attraction is in serious jeopardy, as global > warming > and chemical runoff threaten to kill marine species and cause disease > outbreaks. > > Chinese coal ship Shen Neng 1 gouged a three-metre scar in the reef > when it > ran aground whilst attempting to take a short cut on April 3, > leaking tonnes > of oil into a famed nature sanctuary and breeding site. > > About 200,000 litres of heavy fuel oil spewed into waters south of > the reef > last March when shipping containers full of fertiliser tumbled off > the Hong > Kong-flagged Pacific Adventurer during a cyclone, piercing its hull. > > It was one of Australia's worst ever oil spills. > > Marshall said the cameras would now be sent to the sludge-ridden > Gulf of > Mexico to monitor the effects of the oil spill there on marine life. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 16:16:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:16:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwantedgarbage on this list... References: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <011d01cb246c$4a39a1f0$deace5d0$@com> Message-ID: <4C3F96CD.0000AA.01452@DON-B2514E06367> I don't get mad at opinions, I respect them. I do bristle at the statement I am rude. I don't think so. I post what I believe is true and don't post the larger percentage which I believe not to be true. As you know there are very outlandish statements being made out there; I look into it and determine if it is just made up. Thank you Don By the way, Jim is ignorant.and abusive. He should work for Homeland Security as a prison guard, or whatever suited for.. D -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/15/2010 3:23:20 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwantedgarbage on this list... Don, > From: donkelly > > [...] You don like people who find the feet > of clay of people whom you believe without > question. No, that's not what this is about. This is about gilding the feet with manure and saying you're gilding it with gold. Keep the political nonsense off the list and find other ways to interact with the community. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/67758003/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 16:18:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:18:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths References: <00f401cb245f$c22dddf0$468999d0$@com> <6578583F-0772-4C0A-8AD0-E011AB461766@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C3F9749.0000AD.01452@DON-B2514E06367> I would say, blowing smoke, but same thing Katie. Keep on writing. I just love it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/15/2010 4:04:15 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths Kudos to the scientists trying to document the species that are likely to disappear. A raspberry to the oil companies that claim they have the capacity to deal with oil spills who were lying through their teeth the whole time. Katie On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Ancient species discovered in Barrier Reef depths > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100715/sc_afp/ > australiaenvironmentcoralreef > July 15, 2010 > > SYDNEY (AFP) - Australian scientists have discovered bizarre > prehistoric sea > life hundreds of metres below the Great Barrier Reef, in an > unprecedented > mission to document species under threat from ocean warming. > > Ancient sharks, giant oil fish, swarms of crustaceans and a primitive > shell-dwelling squid species called the Nautilus were among the > astonishing > life captured by remote controlled cameras at Osprey Reef. > > Lead researcher Justin Marshall Thursday said his team had also found > several unidentified fish species, including "prehistoric six- > gilled sharks" > using special low-light sensitive cameras which were custom > designed to > trawl the ocean floor, 1,400 metres (4,593 feet) below sea level. > > "Some of the creatures that we've seen we were sort of expecting, > some of > them we weren't expecting, and some of them we haven't identified > yet," said > Marshall, from the University of Queensland. > > "There was a shark that I really wasn't expecting, which was a > false cat > shark, which has a really odd dorsal fin." > > The team used a tuna head on a stick to attract the creatures, > which live > beyond the reach of sunlight. > > Marshall said the research had been made more urgent by recent oil > spills > affecting the world heritage-listed Great Barrier Reef, and the > growing > threat to its biodiversity by the warming and acidification of the > world's > oceans. > > "One of the things that we're trying to do by looking at the life > in the > deep sea is discover what's there in the first place, before we > wipe it > out," Marshall told AFP. > > "We simply do not know what life is down there, and our cameras can > now > record the behaviour and life in Australia's largest biosphere, the > deep > sea," he added. > > Scientists have already warned that the 345,000-square kilometre > (133,000-square mile) attraction is in serious jeopardy, as global > warming > and chemical runoff threaten to kill marine species and cause disease > outbreaks. > > Chinese coal ship Shen Neng 1 gouged a three-metre scar in the reef > when it > ran aground whilst attempting to take a short cut on April 3, > leaking tonnes > of oil into a famed nature sanctuary and breeding site. > > About 200,000 litres of heavy fuel oil spewed into waters south of > the reef > last March when shipping containers full of fertiliser tumbled off > the Hong > Kong-flagged Pacific Adventurer during a cyclone, piercing its hull. > > It was one of Australia's worst ever oil spills. > > Marshall said the cameras would now be sent to the sludge-ridden > Gulf of > Mexico to monitor the effects of the oil spill there on marine life. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100715/8d3965e5/attachment.gif From redhead854 at msn.com Thu Jul 15 19:03:10 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:03:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] This weekend lots of local events Message-ID: <67B2EB52-E66E-45C2-A8EC-0700C08C15B7@msn.com> 1.Music in the park on Sunday. This event supports music programs in our schools. Sunday local artists Ian lindsey and freinds will be playing. There is a jam session so bring your instrument, also if you want to be on the schedule to play contact Teresa ( I have her info or find it on facebook forest grove music in the park. She also may post an announcement here too. 2. Car Shows in Forest Grove on saturday and sunday. Anything else?? From redhead854 at msn.com Thu Jul 15 19:10:05 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:10:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Local, Don keep it local quit posting In-Reply-To: <4C3F96CD.0000AA.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <011d01cb246c$4a39a1f0$deace5d0$@com> <4C3F96CD.0000AA.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1D71FA71-7FED-4DF3-AE99-E9F47589F2FD@msn.com> Outragous headlines, meant to stir the pot. IMO Jim has been more than kind to describe your actions before, I am so tired of you filling my mailbox with spam. Interesting articles are nice. No more political mud slinging half truths. Put the ladel and your pot away and become a positive force on this local email list. Local local interests. Not political debates On Jul 15, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "donkelly" wrote: > I don't get mad at opinions, I respect them. > > I do bristle at the statement I am rude. I don't think so. > > I post what I believe is true and don't post the larger percentage > which I > believe not to be true. > > As you know there are very outlandish statements being made out > there; I > look into it and determine if it is just made up. > > Thank you > > Don > > By the way, Jim is ignorant.and abusive. He should work for Homeland > Security as a prison guard, or whatever suited for.. > > D > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 7/15/2010 3:23:20 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of > unwantedgarbage on this list... > > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> [...] You don like people who find the feet >> of clay of people whom you believe without >> question. > > No, that's not what this is about. This is about gilding the feet > with > manure and saying you're gilding it with gold. > > Keep the political nonsense off the list and find other ways to > interact > with the community. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 19:56:43 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:56:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of unwantedgarbage on this list... In-Reply-To: <4C3F96CD.0000AA.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3F80AC.00008E.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <011d01cb246c$4a39a1f0$deace5d0$@com> <4C3F96CD.0000AA.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Delete. Breath Deep. Delete again if needed. Repeat as necessary. On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > I don't get mad at opinions, I respect them. > > I do bristle at the statement I am rude. I don't think so. > > I post what I believe is true and don't post the larger percentage which I > believe not to be true. > > As you know there are very outlandish statements being made out there; I > look into it and determine if it is just made up. > > Thank you > > Don > > By the way, Jim is ignorant.and abusive. He should work for Homeland > Security as a prison guard, or whatever suited for.. > > D > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 7/15/2010 3:23:20 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sick to death of this constant deluge of > unwantedgarbage on this list... > > Don, > > > From: donkelly > > > > [...] You don like people who find the feet > > of clay of people whom you believe without > > question. > > No, that's not what this is about. This is about gilding the feet with > manure and saying you're gilding it with gold. > > Keep the political nonsense off the list and find other ways to interact > with the community. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jawelch at coho.net Thu Jul 15 20:42:11 2010 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:42:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] This weekend lots of local events In-Reply-To: <67B2EB52-E66E-45C2-A8EC-0700C08C15B7@msn.com> References: <67B2EB52-E66E-45C2-A8EC-0700C08C15B7@msn.com> Message-ID: <000301cb2498$df9df0d0$9ed9d270$@net> Yes, please support the Concours d'Elegance - Note, however, that it is only on Sunday. Saturday we set up for the event. You may want to wander over to Main Street at about 9:30 Saturday morning, though, as the forty or so cars that will participate in the Lake and Winery Tour will be lining up for departure at about 10:30. By the way, we are always looking for more volunteers to work the Sunday show! Come one way or other. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly Di Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:03 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] This weekend lots of local events 1.Music in the park on Sunday. This event supports music programs in our schools. Sunday local artists Ian lindsey and freinds will be playing. There is a jam session so bring your instrument, also if you want to be on the schedule to play contact Teresa ( I have her info or find it on facebook forest grove music in the park. She also may post an announcement here too. 2. Car Shows in Forest Grove on saturday and sunday. Anything else?? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 23:35:19 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:35:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed to facts, the misinformed believe lies more strongly In-Reply-To: <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: I checked the sources and the count of rockets varies, but 8,000 rockets since the Palestinians started to fire rockets is within the realm of possibility. It appears that those 8,000 rockets have killed about 23 people, injured a few hundred and scared thousands. Israeli deaths from all fighting appear to be less than 750 civilians and less than 350 soldiers. 1/3 of the civilians and 3/4 of the soldier deaths were within the West Bank or Gaza. In the same time, Israeli Defense Forces have killed about 6,000 Palestinians, and Palestinians have killed about 600 Palestinians. Only 70 died outside of the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinian counts were not divided between innocent civilians and terrorists. The source lists the names, ages and activity as reported by Israeli sources. The people who were listed as assaulting IDF could be counted as combatants, the 5 & 6 year old children who died in their own homes would count as innocent civilians. Source: Israeli Human Rights Organization, Jerusalem, Israel http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/ BTW, the buildings are solid concrete, only the contents and the people burn. David On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. > > It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. > > However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. > > Israel was defending itself. > > Don > > PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible sources, or from Hamas? From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 08:55:36 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:55:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> All good and valid info, David. However, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a subject that generates even more hysterical wrangling, white-hot polemics and set-in-concrete opinions and hatreds than even American politics. For an example, check out the "comments" section on any CNN story involving the Middle East. Although the conflict is tragic, frustrating and pitiful, it is something that we in little old Forest Grove can do nothing about, aside from demanding that our politicians extract the USA from it... a gradual process at best. Meanwhile, I wonder if that intractable, interminable war is a subject likely to tone down the noise level on Grovenet. I find that my own temper has improved, and I waste considerably less time at the keyboard, if I just use the good old "delete" button whenever a thread Don originated pops up. WW On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:35 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I checked the sources and the count of rockets varies, but 8,000 > rockets since the Palestinians started to fire rockets is within > the realm of possibility. > > It appears that those 8,000 rockets have killed about 23 people, > injured a few hundred and scared thousands. > > Israeli deaths from all fighting appear to be less than 750 > civilians and less than 350 soldiers. 1/3 of the civilians and 3/4 > of the soldier deaths were within the West Bank or Gaza. > > In the same time, Israeli Defense Forces have killed about 6,000 > Palestinians, and Palestinians have killed about 600 Palestinians. > Only 70 died outside of the West Bank and Gaza. > > The Palestinian counts were not divided between innocent civilians > and terrorists. > > The source lists the names, ages and activity as reported by > Israeli sources. The people who were listed as assaulting IDF > could be counted as combatants, the 5 & 6 year old children who > died in their own homes would count as innocent civilians. > > Source: Israeli Human Rights Organization, Jerusalem, Israel > http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/ > > BTW, the buildings are solid concrete, only the contents and the > people burn. > > David > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. >> >> It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. >> >> However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had >> not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. >> >> Israel was defending itself. >> >> Don >> >> PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible >> sources, or from Hamas? > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 08:58:53 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:58:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> Message-ID: <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> Well, we are far from the front and have no dog in the fight. Which data is correct? Which side is right? > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:56 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) > > All good and valid info, David. However, the Israeli/Palestinian > conflict is a subject that generates even more hysterical wrangling, > white-hot polemics and set-in-concrete opinions and hatreds than even > American politics. For an example, check out the "comments" section > on any CNN story involving the Middle East. Although the conflict is > tragic, frustrating and pitiful, it is something that we in little > old Forest Grove can do nothing about, aside from demanding that our > politicians extract the USA from it... a gradual process at best. > Meanwhile, I wonder if that intractable, interminable war is a > subject likely to tone down the noise level on Grovenet. > I find that my own temper has improved, and I waste considerably less > time at the keyboard, if I just use the good old "delete" button > whenever a thread Don originated pops up. > WW > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:35 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > > I checked the sources and the count of rockets varies, but 8,000 > > rockets since the Palestinians started to fire rockets is within > > the realm of possibility. > > > > It appears that those 8,000 rockets have killed about 23 people, > > injured a few hundred and scared thousands. > > > > Israeli deaths from all fighting appear to be less than 750 > > civilians and less than 350 soldiers. 1/3 of the civilians and 3/4 > > of the soldier deaths were within the West Bank or Gaza. > > > > In the same time, Israeli Defense Forces have killed about 6,000 > > Palestinians, and Palestinians have killed about 600 Palestinians. > > Only 70 died outside of the West Bank and Gaza. > > > > The Palestinian counts were not divided between innocent civilians > > and terrorists. > > > > The source lists the names, ages and activity as reported by > > Israeli sources. The people who were listed as assaulting IDF > > could be counted as combatants, the 5 & 6 year old children who > > died in their own homes would count as innocent civilians. > > > > Source: Israeli Human Rights Organization, Jerusalem, Israel > > http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/ > > > > BTW, the buildings are solid concrete, only the contents and the > > people burn. > > > > David > > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > > > >> White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. > >> > >> It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. > >> > >> However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had > >> not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. > >> > >> Israel was defending itself. > >> > >> Don > >> > >> PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible > >> sources, or from Hamas? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 09:30:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:30:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> Message-ID: <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> To my mind, neither side is "right." Nobody (except a minority of helpless and rapidly aging bystanders) has a "legal" claim to the land, it's just the age-old conundrum of too many people, too little dirt, which is only going to become ever more acute because of rampant population growth. And don't get me started on that, or it'll just lead to another argument. Religion and reproduction, why do they always become so damn entangled (heavy sigh). WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Steven wrote: > Well, we are far from the front and have no dog in the fight. Which > data is > correct? Which side is right? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:56 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) >> >> All good and valid info, David. However, the Israeli/Palestinian >> conflict is a subject that generates even more hysterical wrangling, >> white-hot polemics and set-in-concrete opinions and hatreds than even >> American politics. For an example, check out the "comments" section >> on any CNN story involving the Middle East. Although the conflict is >> tragic, frustrating and pitiful, it is something that we in little >> old Forest Grove can do nothing about, aside from demanding that our >> politicians extract the USA from it... a gradual process at best. >> Meanwhile, I wonder if that intractable, interminable war is a >> subject likely to tone down the noise level on Grovenet. >> I find that my own temper has improved, and I waste considerably less >> time at the keyboard, if I just use the good old "delete" button >> whenever a thread Don originated pops up. >> WW >> >> On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:35 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> I checked the sources and the count of rockets varies, but 8,000 >>> rockets since the Palestinians started to fire rockets is within >>> the realm of possibility. >>> >>> It appears that those 8,000 rockets have killed about 23 people, >>> injured a few hundred and scared thousands. >>> >>> Israeli deaths from all fighting appear to be less than 750 >>> civilians and less than 350 soldiers. 1/3 of the civilians and 3/4 >>> of the soldier deaths were within the West Bank or Gaza. >>> >>> In the same time, Israeli Defense Forces have killed about 6,000 >>> Palestinians, and Palestinians have killed about 600 Palestinians. >>> Only 70 died outside of the West Bank and Gaza. >>> >>> The Palestinian counts were not divided between innocent civilians >>> and terrorists. >>> >>> The source lists the names, ages and activity as reported by >>> Israeli sources. The people who were listed as assaulting IDF >>> could be counted as combatants, the 5 & 6 year old children who >>> died in their own homes would count as innocent civilians. >>> >>> Source: Israeli Human Rights Organization, Jerusalem, Israel >>> http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/ >>> >>> BTW, the buildings are solid concrete, only the contents and the >>> people burn. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:35 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. >>>> >>>> It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. >>>> >>>> However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had >>>> not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. >>>> >>>> Israel was defending itself. >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible >>>> sources, or from Hamas? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 09:45:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:45:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled down from the woods near Beavercreek. I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! WW From gritton.family at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:01:46 2010 From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 17:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] This weekend lots of local events In-Reply-To: <67B2EB52-E66E-45C2-A8EC-0700C08C15B7@msn.com> Message-ID: <1697255722.65197.1279299706262.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> There's also the Street of Affordable Houses that continues through 25 July. The NewsTimes had an article about it either this week or last. It costs $7.50 per person to attend. Cindy Gritton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holly Di" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:03:10 PM Subject: [Grovenet] This weekend lots of local events 1.Music in the park on Sunday. This event supports music programs in our schools. Sunday local artists Ian lindsey and freinds will be playing. There is a jam session so bring your instrument, also if you want to be on the schedule to play contact Teresa ( I have her info or find it on facebook forest grove music in the park. She also may post an announcement here too. 2. Car Shows in Forest Grove on saturday and sunday. Anything else?? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 09:58:20 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:58:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year when everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away by the trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current media center (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And we got rid of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be picked up by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a "load up 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still upset every year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I thought the old way of doing it made so much more sense! Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re-use? Bring back the old way of doing it. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to > the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! > Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled > down from the woods near Beavercreek. > I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in > Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too > good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little > planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and > somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. > A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot > of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's > home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- > just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:07:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:07:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many religions. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/16/2010 9:30:19 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) To my mind, neither side is "right." Nobody (except a minority of helpless and rapidly aging bystanders) has a "legal" claim to the land, it's just the age-old conundrum of too many people, too little dirt, which is only going to become ever more acute because of rampant population growth. And don't get me started on that, or it'll just lead to another argument. Religion and reproduction, why do they always become so damn entangled (heavy sigh). WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Steven wrote: > Well, we are far from the front and have no dog in the fight. Which > data is > correct? Which side is right? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:56 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) >> >> All good and valid info, David. However, the Israeli/Palestinian >> conflict is a subject that generates even more hysterical wrangling, >> white-hot polemics and set-in-concrete opinions and hatreds than even >> American politics. For an example, check out the "comments" section >> on any CNN story involving the Middle East. Although the conflict is >> tragic, frustrating and pitiful, it is something that we in little >> old Forest Grove can do nothing about, aside from demanding that our >> politicians extract the USA from it... a gradual process at best. >> Meanwhile, I wonder if that intractable, interminable war is a >> subject likely to tone down the noise level on Grovenet. >> I find that my own temper has improved, and I waste considerably less >> time at the keyboard, if I just use the good old "delete" button >> whenever a thread Don originated pops up. >> WW >> >> On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:35 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> I checked the sources and the count of rockets varies, but 8,000 >>> rockets since the Palestinians started to fire rockets is within >>> the realm of possibility. >>> >>> It appears that those 8,000 rockets have killed about 23 people, >>> injured a few hundred and scared thousands. >>> >>> Israeli deaths from all fighting appear to be less than 750 >>> civilians and less than 350 soldiers. 1/3 of the civilians and 3/4 >>> of the soldier deaths were within the West Bank or Gaza. >>> >>> In the same time, Israeli Defense Forces have killed about 6,000 >>> Palestinians, and Palestinians have killed about 600 Palestinians. >>> Only 70 died outside of the West Bank and Gaza. >>> >>> The Palestinian counts were not divided between innocent civilians >>> and terrorists. >>> >>> The source lists the names, ages and activity as reported by >>> Israeli sources. The people who were listed as assaulting IDF >>> could be counted as combatants, the 5 & 6 year old children who >>> died in their own homes would count as innocent civilians. >>> >>> Source: Israeli Human Rights Organization, Jerusalem, Israel >>> http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/ >>> >>> BTW, the buildings are solid concrete, only the contents and the >>> people burn. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:35 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> White phosphorus sets buildings on fire that are hard to put out. >>>> >>>> It is not normally used as an anti-personnel weapon. >>>> >>>> However the attack would not have happened if the Palestinians had >>>> not fired as many as 8,000 rockets into Israeli towns. >>>> >>>> Israel was defending itself. >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> PS: Those reports seem incredible. Did they come from credible >>>> sources, or from Hamas? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/c02000f3/attachment.gif From jawelch at coho.net Fri Jul 16 10:24:10 2010 From: jawelch at coho.net (John Welch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:24:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <000901cb250b$b48e1730$1daa4590$@net> I have heard that another good way to have things go away is to set them at the curb with a modest price posted on them and they disappear overnight. In some cases they have sat on the curb with free sign that was ignored! -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Debra Bratland Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:58 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year when everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away by the trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current media center (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And we got rid of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be picked up by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a "load up 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still upset every year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I thought the old way of doing it made so much more sense! Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re-use? Bring back the old way of doing it. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to > the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! > Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled > down from the woods near Beavercreek. > I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in > Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too > good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little > planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and > somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. > A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot > of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's > home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- > just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 10:27:36 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:27:36 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My other "home" does that twice a year (even with 'real garbage service'). In the spring and the fall there is a time to put out the "too big" or "too whatever" to go into the regular garbage. People put it out as soon as last week's truck goes by and by the time next week's truck goes by there is FAR less out there. Sometimes people even stop by when something odd is sitting beside the garbage can. Our latest find was one of those preschool picnic table/benches. It has found a place of honor at my daughter's office where it entertains with coloring pages while grown-ups are doing business. A win-win all around! Kristy From debbratland at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 10:33:19 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:33:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My dad is one who always picks up old vacuum cleaners or lawn mowers, fixes them up, and then turns around and sells them for $20 or so. It's a great service for the community, in that people get cheap appliances that work great but that would have gone to the landfill if not fixed up. Anyone have any idea how we could get the old garbage day back? Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of cereal boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then re-use them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > > > > My other "home" does that twice a year (even with 'real garbage service'). > In the spring and the fall there is a time to put out the "too big" or "too > whatever" to go into the regular garbage. People put it out as soon as last > week's truck goes by and by the time next week's truck goes by there is FAR > less out there. > > Sometimes people even stop by when something odd is sitting beside the > garbage can. Our latest find was one of those preschool picnic > table/benches. It has found a place of honor at my daughter's office where > it entertains with coloring pages while grown-ups are doing business. > > A win-win all around! > Kristy > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 10:39:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:39:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> Hear, hear! I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup Day. Why can't we go back to that system? WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year > when > everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away > by the > trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current > media center > (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And > we got rid > of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be > picked up > by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. > > I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a > "load up > 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still > upset every > year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I > thought > the old way of doing it made so much more sense! > > Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- > use? Bring > back the old way of doing it. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to >> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! >> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled >> down from the woods near Beavercreek. >> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in >> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too >> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little >> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and >> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. >> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot >> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's >> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- >> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:42:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:42:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C409A09.000020.01236@DON-B2514E06367> I have an expensive storm door (tempered glass) free. It has no frame. But they are easy to build. Come and get it if interested. It swings left (from inside) so useless on my house. In the past I have set out lawn mowers and weed eaters, in working conditions, with a free sign on them But a glass door does not lend itself well to setting on the curb with a free sign on it. Signs work. Thanks Walt Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/16/2010 9:44:15 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled down from the woods near Beavercreek. I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/300c46e8/attachment-0001.gif From nospam03 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:42:40 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 17:42:40 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com><4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com><4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com><4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com><4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com><4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com><4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> Message-ID: <556466492-1279302163-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564495213-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We wanted to encourage recycling. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:39:56 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Hear, hear! I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup Day. Why can't we go back to that system? WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year > when > everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away > by the > trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current > media center > (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And > we got rid > of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be > picked up > by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. > > I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a > "load up > 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still > upset every > year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I > thought > the old way of doing it made so much more sense! > > Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- > use? Bring > back the old way of doing it. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to >> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! >> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled >> down from the woods near Beavercreek. >> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in >> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too >> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little >> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and >> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. >> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot >> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's >> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- >> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 10:44:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:44:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> > > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of > cereal > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then > re-use > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. > Deb Bratland You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator storage bags. WW From debbratland at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 10:49:40 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:49:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> Message-ID: I forgot to mention, they are easily made into flat sheets by pulling them apart at the seams ... so re-use them as bags, or as flat sheets of "waxed paper". Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of > > cereal > > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then > > re-use > > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. > > Deb Bratland > You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather > and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've > always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! > With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator > storage bags. > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:54:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:54:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C409CC3.000025.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Seems that was true until relatively recently. As I drove down streets in south FG, garbage cans were full, and more than one, and other stuff like chairs. When did they stop that? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/16/2010 10:38:42 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Hear, hear! I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup Day. Why can't we go back to that system? WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year > when > everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away > by the > trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current > media center > (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And > we got rid > of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be > picked up > by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. > > I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a > "load up > 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still > upset every > year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I > thought > the old way of doing it made so much more sense! > > Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- > use? Bring > back the old way of doing it. > > Deb Bratland > > > > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to >> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! >> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled >> down from the woods near Beavercreek. >> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in >> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too >> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little >> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and >> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. >> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot >> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's >> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- >> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/b068005b/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 10:58:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:58:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a large gray recycling bin. So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue garbage can is only half full on Fridays. These items are picked up by two separate trucks. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of > cereal > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then > re-use > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. > Deb Bratland You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator storage bags. WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/4beb75dd/attachment.gif From debbratland at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 11:03:25 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:03:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a recycling can, and a green waste can. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: > One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a large > gray recycling bin. > > So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue > garbage can is only half full on Fridays. > > These items are picked up by two separate trucks. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > > > > > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of > > cereal > > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then > > re-use > > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. > > Deb Bratland > You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather > and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've > always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! > With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator > storage bags. > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 11:05:59 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:05:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> Message-ID: <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> How hard would it be to have the city pick a day and make an announcement? The first Saturday after school starts might be a good day.... And then another day in the spring - say the first Saturday after Spring Break? Just a thought.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 10:39 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Hear, hear! > I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could > set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). > About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main > that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out > stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of > cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the > entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup > Day. Why can't we go back to that system? > WW > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year >> when >> everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away >> by the >> trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current >> media center >> (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And >> we got rid >> of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be >> picked up >> by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. >> >> I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a >> "load up >> 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still >> upset every >> year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I >> thought >> the old way of doing it made so much more sense! >> >> Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- >> use? Bring >> back the old way of doing it. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to >>> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! >>> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled >>> down from the woods near Beavercreek. >>> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in >>> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too >>> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little >>> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and >>> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. >>> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot >>> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's >>> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- >>> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 11:12:35 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:12:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <556466492-1279302163-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564495213-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com><806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com><4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com><4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com><4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com><4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com><4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com><4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <556466492-1279302163-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564495213-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: I suspect the real reason is that it was too expensive to pick up an unlimited amount of stuff that had to be taken to the land fill. When we first moved here, there was a limit to how much you could put out but the entire city was picked up on a Saturday morning. (We had a very smart neighbor who had a garage sale the Friday before then all the left overs just went to the curb.) But the downside to the whole city at once was the extra labor costs. The decision to do the pick up on your regular trash day reduced the labor costs so it wasn't based on any recycling philosophy pro or con or cynical. Katie On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Steve wrote: > We wanted to encourage recycling. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:39:56 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > Hear, hear! > I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could > set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). > About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main > that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out > stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of > cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the > entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup > Day. Why can't we go back to that system? > WW > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year >> when >> everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away >> by the >> trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current >> media center >> (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And >> we got rid >> of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be >> picked up >> by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. >> >> I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a >> "load up >> 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still >> upset every >> year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I >> thought >> the old way of doing it made so much more sense! >> >> Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- >> use? Bring >> back the old way of doing it. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to >>> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets >>> left! >>> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled >>> down from the woods near Beavercreek. >>> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in >>> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too >>> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little >>> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and >>> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find >>> it. >>> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot >>> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's >>> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- >>> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 11:13:16 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:13:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long after WM took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not remembering correctly. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > How hard would it be to have the city pick a day and make an announcement? > The first Saturday after school starts might be a good day.... > > And then another day in the spring - say the first Saturday after Spring > Break? > > Just a thought.... > > Marian > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 10:39 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > Hear, hear! > > I remember when there was NO LIMIT to the amount of stuff you could > > set out for pickup (or salvaging by neighbors). > > About 30 years ago, my ex and I rehabilitated an old house on Main > > that had been a slum tenement for years. The trash pile we set out > > stretched about 25 feet long, five feet high, occupied scores of > > cardboard cartons and filled an entire dumptruck. The house (and the > > entire neighborhood) was greatly improved by that year's Trash Pickup > > Day. Why can't we go back to that system? > > WW > > > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > >> Remember the good old days when we had one "garbage day" each year > >> when > >> everyone could put their "trash" on the sidewalk to be hauled away > >> by the > >> trash collectors? We scored so many great things - our current > >> media center > >> (beautifully refinished by my husband), a great ladder, etc. And > >> we got rid > >> of lots of good stuff, putting it out not to be junked but to be > >> picked up > >> by one of the people driving around in pickups looking to score. > >> > >> I felt it was a huge step backwards when our "garbage day" became a > >> "load up > >> 6 bags of trash and set it out and we'll pick it up." I'm still > >> upset every > >> year when I see the announcement from Waste Management, because I > >> thought > >> the old way of doing it made so much more sense! > >> > >> Want to discourage filling the landfill and instead encourage re- > >> use? Bring > >> back the old way of doing it. > >> > >> Deb Bratland > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Walt Wentz > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Two more buckets of colored glass are gone, whoopie! Many thanks to > >>> the unknown benefactor who took them. Only two or three buckets left! > >>> Perhaps a bit more, after I finish sorting the huge trove I hauled > >>> down from the woods near Beavercreek. > >>> I think the FREE sign is one of the nicest things about living in > >>> Forest Grove. When you have something you don't want but that is too > >>> good to just throw away (actually, there is no "away" on this little > >>> planet), you can just put it out by the street with a FREE sign, and > >>> somebody who has a use for it will eventually come along and find it. > >>> A lot of the things in my house were adopted in that fashion; a lot > >>> of things I have outgrown or don't need are now in somebody else's > >>> home-- all without any waste, any bother, any medium of exchange-- > >>> just the good old FREE sign. Long may it wave! > >>> WW > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 11:43:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:43:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Local Meetings and Conferences: Message-ID: <4C40A82F.000039.01236@DON-B2514E06367> This months items: Meet with Brian Jennings Oregon 912 Project/Gen'l Meet with Brian Jennings Time: July 17, 2010, 9:45 AM to 12 PM Meeting Location: West End Building Street: 4101 Kruse Way City/Town: Lake Oswego, OR Sponsoring Organization: Oregon 9-12 Project For more information, click here: http://is.gd/cVjCy Illegal Immigration, Amnesty Issues Forum Time: July 22, 2010, 6:30 PM to 9 PM Meeting Location: Beaverton Resource Center Community Room Street: 12500 SW Allen Blvd City/Town: Beaverton, OR Sponsoring Organization: U-CHOOSE, Debra Ann Mervyn For more information, click here: http://is.gd/cVikC Celebrate Milton Friedman with John Fund Time: July 30, 2010, 5 PM to 8 PM Meeting Location: Multnomah Athletic Club Street: 1849 SW Salmon St. City/Town: Portland, OR Sponsoring Organization: Cascade Policy RSVP by July 24 to Deanne Kastine 503.242.0900 or deanne at cascadepolicy.org Oregon 912 Project/ Tea Party Movie, Documentary Time: July 31, 2010, 7 PM to 9 PM Meeting Location: Home Builders Association Street: 15555 SW Bangy Road, Suite 101 City/Town: Lake Oswego, OR Sponsoring Organization: Oregon 9-12 Project For more information, click here: http://is.gd/dcafo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/5a3255ff/attachment.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 12:46:37 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:46:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human son, equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my Native American relatives, etc., etc. Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years of growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive attention from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping people walking or driving for no reason other than color). Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of > his life. Mea culpa. > > Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. > > Thanks, Deb. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Debra Bratland > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been > in > what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their > "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. > > Deb Bratland > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike > wrote: > >> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and >> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." >> >> Something wrong with him, Don? >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of donkelly >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >> >> >> >> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. >> >> >> >> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 >> million people. >> >> >> >> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >> >> >> >> Never mind. >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> >> >> From: Jeff Howden >> >> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >> >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> >> >> Don, >> >> >> >> > From: donkelly >> >> > >> >> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >> >> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >> >> >> >> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already >> >> understands this tired argument. >> >> >> >> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >> >> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >> >> >> >> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >> >> >> >> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >> >> > but fear it 'self? >> >> >> >> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >> accurate >> >> in practical terms. >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Jul 16 12:52:56 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:52:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened his mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license or naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for 25 years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Steele Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human son, equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my Native American relatives, etc., etc. Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years of growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive attention from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping people walking or driving for no reason other than color). Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of > his life. Mea culpa. > > Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. > > Thanks, Deb. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Debra Bratland > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been > in > what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their > "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. > > Deb Bratland > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike > wrote: > >> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, and >> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown guy." >> >> Something wrong with him, Don? >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of donkelly >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >> >> >> >> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. >> >> >> >> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to 100 >> million people. >> >> >> >> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >> >> >> >> Never mind. >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> >> >> From: Jeff Howden >> >> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >> >> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> >> >> Don, >> >> >> >> > From: donkelly >> >> > >> >> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >> >> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >> >> >> >> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already >> >> understands this tired argument. >> >> >> >> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >> >> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >> >> >> >> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >> >> >> >> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >> >> > but fear it 'self? >> >> >> >> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >> accurate >> >> in practical terms. >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 13:00:53 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:00:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <3F602438-89D5-4CE7-9F0E-26BCF978A6F7@verizon.net> It will be interesting to see what happens in Arizona when someone presents a Hawaii driver's license or birth certificate. How many of the police officers will accept it??? Katie On Jul 16, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd > be a target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he > opened his mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his > driver's license or naturalization papers. Of course, because he's > been a US citizen for 25 years, he may not even know where those > papers are. Oooops... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful > human son, > equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & > beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my > Native > American relatives, etc., etc. > > Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after > years of > growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive > attention > from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were > stopping > people walking or driving for no reason other than color). > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for >> most of >> his life. Mea culpa. >> >> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >> >> Thanks, Deb. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who >> have been >> in >> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before >> their >> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >> wrote: >> >>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, >>> Chile, and >>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little >>> brown guy." >>> >>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>> >>> >>> >>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all >>> of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of >>> America to 100 >>> million people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Never mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Howden >>> >>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>> >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> >>> >>> Don, >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: donkelly >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>> >>>> kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>> >>> >>> >>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>> already >>> >>> understands this tired argument. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>> >>>> terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>> >>>> but fear it 'self? >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>> accurate >>> >>> in practical terms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 13:01:19 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:01:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO> I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American citizenship. A passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. I'm sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a > target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened his > mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license or > naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for 25 > years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human > son, > equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & > beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my Native > American relatives, etc., etc. > > Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years of > growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive attention > from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping > people walking or driving for no reason other than color). > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of >> his life. Mea culpa. >> >> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >> >> Thanks, Deb. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been >> in >> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their >> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >> wrote: >> >>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, >>> and >>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>> guy." >>> >>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>> >>> >>> >>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to >>> 100 >>> million people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Never mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Howden >>> >>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>> >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> >>> >>> Don, >>> >>> >>> >>> > From: donkelly >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>> >>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>> >>> >>> >>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already >>> >>> understands this tired argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>> >>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>> >>> >>> >>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>> >>> > but fear it 'self? >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>> accurate >>> >>> in practical terms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 13:49:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:49:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4C40C5CA.00005D.01236@DON-B2514E06367> If you go to DMV in Hillsboro to renew your drivers license, they will ask you for a passport or birth certificate. You can tell them who your mother was, who your dad was, they don't want that. They want a passport or a drivers license. If you do not present one or the other, your drivers license is not renewed. But they did extend my drivers license for thirty days so I could get a birth certificate or passport. Turned out my sister had it among Mom's papers left when she passed on. Only explanation: Rules of Homeland Security. I was a mite upset, yet glad they were being careful. Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 7/16/2010 1:02:51 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American citizenship. A passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. I'm sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a > target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened his > mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license or > naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for 25 > years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human > son, > equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & > beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my Native > American relatives, etc., etc. > > Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years of > growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive attention > from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping > people walking or driving for no reason other than color). > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of >> his life. Mea culpa. >> >> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >> >> Thanks, Deb. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have been >> in >> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their >> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >> wrote: >> >>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, >>> and >>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>> guy." >>> >>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>> >>> >>> >>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to >>> 100 >>> million people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Never mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Howden >>> >>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>> >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> >>> >>> Don, >>> >>> >>> >>> > From: donkelly >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>> >>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>> >>> >>> >>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, already >>> >>> understands this tired argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>> >>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>> >>> >>> >>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>> >>> > but fear it 'self? >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>> accurate >>> >>> in practical terms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/de1bec34/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 14:00:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:00:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com> <4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <3F602438-89D5-4CE7-9F0E-26BCF978A6F7@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C40C85A.000062.01236@DON-B2514E06367> I suspect they might do exactly what the DMV here did. The three things they looked at was the state stamp, registrar's stamp with signature, and the water mark, all on the front of the document. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/16/2010 1:02:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct It will be interesting to see what happens in Arizona when someone presents a Hawaii driver's license or birth certificate. How many of the police officers will accept it??? Katie On Jul 16, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd > be a target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he > opened his mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his > driver's license or naturalization papers. Of course, because he's > been a US citizen for 25 years, he may not even know where those > papers are. Oooops... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > > OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful > human son, > equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & > beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my > Native > American relatives, etc., etc. > > Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after > years of > growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive > attention > from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were > stopping > people walking or driving for no reason other than color). > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for >> most of >> his life. Mea culpa. >> >> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >> >> Thanks, Deb. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who >> have been >> in >> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before >> their >> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >> wrote: >> >>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, >>> Chile, and >>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little >>> brown guy." >>> >>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of donkelly >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>> >>> >>> >>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all >>> of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of >>> America to 100 >>> million people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Never mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Howden >>> >>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>> >>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> >>> >>> Don, >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: donkelly >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>> >>>> kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>> >>> >>> >>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>> already >>> >>> understands this tired argument. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>> >>>> terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>> >>>> but fear it 'self? >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>> accurate >>> >>> in practical terms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/6565f211/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 14:28:37 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:28:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <606545CD-3CA6-47E2-9FB0-00A74CE8BBDF@teleport.com> Tomorrow, July 18, at 10 a.m., there will be a FREE class and workshop on drip irrigation using Z-Tape, an inexpensive, recyclable plastic tape which does not require expensive "emitters," but merely has tiny holes built into it at regular intervals. The class will be at the Forest Grove Victory Garden, near the FG transformer station at the north end of Maple Street, off 22nd, 2 blocks north of Bi-Mart. The public is invited, and the class is FREE, fer nuthin', so what can you lose? WW From edavie at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 14:57:35 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:57:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class In-Reply-To: <606545CD-3CA6-47E2-9FB0-00A74CE8BBDF@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <606545CD-3CA6-47E2-9FB0-00A74CE8BBDF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <235AD920D28E4F1BB121CE3F0A5B412C@EdDaviePC> Only problem, tomorrow isn't the 18th! Ed From: Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 2:28 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class Tomorrow, July 18, at 10 a.m., there will be a FREE class and workshop on drip irrigation using Z-Tape, an inexpensive, recyclable plastic tape which does not require expensive "emitters," but merely has tiny holes built into it at regular intervals. The class will be at the Forest Grove Victory Garden, near the FG transformer station at the north end of Maple Street, off 22nd, 2 blocks north of Bi-Mart. The public is invited, and the class is FREE, fer nuthin', so what can you lose? WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 15:45:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:45:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <606545CD-3CA6-47E2-9FB0-00A74CE8BBDF@teleport.com> <235AD920D28E4F1BB121CE3F0A5B412C@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4C40E101.000084.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Is it on Sunday the 18th? -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 7/16/2010 2:58:28 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class Only problem, tomorrow isn't the 18th! Ed From: Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 2:28 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class Tomorrow, July 18, at 10 a.m., there will be a FREE class and workshop on drip irrigation using Z-Tape, an inexpensive, recyclable plastic tape which does not require expensive "emitters," but merely has tiny holes built into it at regular intervals. The class will be at the Forest Grove Victory Garden, near the FG transformer station at the north end of Maple Street, off 22nd, 2 blocks north of Bi-Mart. The public is invited, and the class is FREE, fer nuthin', so what can you lose? WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/49f44f00/attachment.gif From obrzl at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 16:53:44 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:53:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass Message-ID: <1081273021.40516.1279324425128.JavaMail.root@vms170049> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100716/8d511b7b/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 18:23:02 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:23:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See In-Reply-To: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> References: <008101cb243e$2de70c00$89b52400$@com> Message-ID: <8A627B745A954F91AE5A7038DEDCC108@GeriPC> Thanks for the neat article, Jeff. : ) Somehow I am not surprised that insects are so tough! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:52 AM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: [Grovenet] Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See > Look Up! The Billion-Bug Highway You Can't See > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128389587 > July 15, 2010 by Robert Krulwich > > Step outside on a clear day this summer and look up. What do you see? > Blue. > And maybe a plane or a bird up there, but otherwise ... nothing. Or so you > think. It turns out that right above you, totally invisible, is an > enormous > herd of animal life. There are so many creatures up there, they are so > busy, > so athletic, so tiny, that we had to fly up and give you a peek. > > When British scientist Jason Chapman told us (listen to the radio piece or > watch our video) there are 3 billion insects passing over your head in a > summer month, he was talking about his survey in Great Britain. Closer to > the equator, he says, the numbers should rise. He wouldn't be surprised, > for > example, that in the sky over Houston or New Orleans there could be 6 > billion critters passing overhead in a month. > > What Are They Doing Up There? > > Sometimes insects and spiders need to leave where they are and go > someplace > else for food, for sex, for space. For a variety of reasons bugs disperse. > You can see them launching themselves, says entomologist Matt Greenstone: > > "They just stand straight up on their little back legs and just by doing > that they can get part of their body up into this layer [of air] where > it's > more turbulent and then, if you can get a ride on a parcel that's going > up, > you can get off the ground and then if you're lucky you can get carried > aloft." > > How High Can They Go? > > Writing in American Entomologist recently (Spring 2010 "Frequent Flyer > Miles"), May Berenbaum says pilots have long known insects can fly very > high. "Beginning in 1926, Tanglefoot-coated slides were affixed to > airplanes > to collect insects, with famed aviator Charles Lindbergh contributing to > the > data-collection effort by carrying sticky glass slides on his 1933 flight > crossing the Atlantic at 2,460 to 5,410 feet and over Greenland at 7,870 > to > 12,135 feet." > > Now 12,000 feet is pretty high, but the all-time champ is, of all things, > a > termite! > > In Berenbaum's article, she mentions a 1961 study by J.L. Gressit in which > an insect trap was placed on a Super-Constellation airplane. That plane > flew > 116,684 miles sampling the air, catching whatever was up there, and, > Berenbaum says, "the trap managed to capture a single termite at 19,000 > feet." That's the record. > > You wonder how a little critter can survive the wind, the cold, the > absence > of company. "Wind dispersal at great heights can be rough on insects," > Berenbaum writes. And yet they are very tough. Of 1,610 insects captured > by > another team of scientists led by L.R. Taylor in 1960, 97 percent were > alive > and undamaged, 2 percent were alive and damaged, and 1 percent were dead. > The flying corpse was, it turns out, a rarity. > > If all this interests you, check out Insectopedia by Hugh Raffles, just > published, whose essay on bugs in the air (Chapter 1) is how I bumped into > this subject. Raffles (briefly), Berenbaum and Greenstone all appear in > our > radio story; Benjamin Arthur's animations are lovingly and meticulously > (OMG, does he work hard) constructed (and he drew the heroic British mouse > in an earlier post). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 18:38:23 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:38:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- yay! So glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the plastic, from the newspapers, etc., any more. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a > recycling can, and a green waste can. > > Deb Bratland > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a >> large >> gray recycling bin. >> >> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue >> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >> >> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >> >> > >> > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >> > cereal >> > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >> > re-use >> > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >> > Deb Bratland >> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! >> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >> storage bags. >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 18:40:22 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:40:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <3F602438-89D5-4CE7-9F0E-26BCF978A6F7@verizon.net> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <3F602438-89D5-4CE7-9F0E-26BCF978A6F7@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7F74FE1496724C689E28C8A160F00BBB@GeriPC> Aha, Katie, LOL. Would like to know what would happen. ;-) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:00 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > It will be interesting to see what happens in Arizona when someone > presents a Hawaii driver's license or birth certificate. How many of > the police officers will accept it??? > > Katie > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > >> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd >> be a target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he >> opened his mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his >> driver's license or naturalization papers. Of course, because he's >> been a US citizen for 25 years, he may not even know where those >> papers are. Oooops... >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Steele >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful >> human son, >> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >> Native >> American relatives, etc., etc. >> >> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after >> years of >> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive >> attention >> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were >> stopping >> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Steele, Mike" >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for >>> most of >>> his life. Mea culpa. >>> >>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>> >>> Thanks, Deb. >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who >>> have been >>> in >>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before >>> their >>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, >>>> Chile, and >>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little >>>> brown guy." >>>> >>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>> >>>> --Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all >>>> of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of >>>> America to 100 >>>> million people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Never mind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------Original Message------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>> >>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>> >>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: donkelly >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>> >>>>> kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>> already >>>> >>>> understands this tired argument. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>> >>>>> terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>> >>>>> but fear it 'self? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>> accurate >>>> >>>> in practical terms. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 18:55:46 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:55:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC> Nowadays, an Oregon driver's license should prove American citizenship. See what our new requirements are at http://www.oregondmv.com/ . Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American citizenship. > A > passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. > I'm > sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a >> target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened his >> mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license >> or >> naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for 25 >> years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Geri Steele >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human >> son, >> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >> Native >> American relatives, etc., etc. >> >> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years >> of >> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive attention >> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping >> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Steele, Mike" >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most of >>> his life. Mea culpa. >>> >>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>> >>> Thanks, Deb. >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have >>> been >>> in >>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their >>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, >>>> and >>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>>> guy." >>>> >>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>> >>>> --Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of >>>> us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to >>>> 100 >>>> million people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Never mind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------Original Message------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>> >>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>> >>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > From: donkelly >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>> >>>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>> already >>>> >>>> understands this tired argument. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>> >>>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>> >>>> > but fear it 'self? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>> accurate >>>> >>>> in practical terms. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 19:41:13 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 19:41:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO> <3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC> Message-ID: <162A48C8B47A4D13A65BBF3AAE826D80@JeffVAIO> When I checked the website it said: All applicants for driver licenses, instruction permits and ID cards - including renewals and replacements - must provide proof that they are citizens of the United States or are in the country legally, proof of Social Security number and proof of full legal name. This would prove that you are in the country legally, not necessarily a citizen of the United States. Many legal resident aliens have driver's licenses, but are not citizens. So a driver's license still doesn't prove citizenship - I guess citizens of the US should be sure to carry their passport or voter's registration card when in Arizona to prove citizenship. Legal resident aliens are required to carry their "green" cards to prove they are here legally. -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Geri Steele" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:55 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > Nowadays, an Oregon driver's license should prove American citizenship. > See > what our new requirements are at http://www.oregondmv.com/ . > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:01 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American citizenship. >> A >> passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. >> I'm >> sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Steele, Mike" >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a >>> target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened his >>> mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license >>> or >>> naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for 25 >>> years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... >>> >>> --Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human >>> son, >>> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >>> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >>> Native >>> American relatives, etc., etc. >>> >>> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years >>> of >>> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive >>> attention >>> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were stopping >>> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most >>>> of >>>> his life. Mea culpa. >>>> >>>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Deb. >>>> >>>> --Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have >>>> been >>>> in >>>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their >>>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>>> >>>> Deb Bratland >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, >>>>> and >>>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>>>> guy." >>>>> >>>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>>> >>>>> --Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of >>>>> us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to >>>>> 100 >>>>> million people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Never mind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>>> >>>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Don, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: donkelly >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>>> >>>>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>>> already >>>>> >>>>> understands this tired argument. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>>> >>>>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>>> >>>>> > but fear it 'self? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>>> accurate >>>>> >>>>> in practical terms. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 20:31:19 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Free Drip Irrigation Class In-Reply-To: <235AD920D28E4F1BB121CE3F0A5B412C@EdDaviePC> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <606545CD-3CA6-47E2-9FB0-00A74CE8BBDF@teleport.com> <235AD920D28E4F1BB121CE3F0A5B412C@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: Dear Ed, et al (especially Al): My bad, I goofed... the class is definitely tomorrow, the 17th. Corrected copy below: > > Tomorrow, July 17, at 10 a.m., there will be a FREE class and > workshop on drip irrigation using Z-Tape, an inexpensive, recyclable > plastic tape which does not require expensive "emitters," but merely > has tiny holes built into it at regular intervals. The class will be > at the Forest Grove Victory Garden, near the FG transformer station > at the north end of Maple Street, off 22nd, 2 blocks north of Bi-Mart. > The public is invited, and the class is FREE, fer nuthin', so what > can you lose? > WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 20:34:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:34:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> Message-ID: <0869CCB8-00ED-473A-9E7E-BF655C7DBBC7@teleport.com> Hot dang, i must have a system going here... two more buckets of colored glass bits disappeared (and yep, they did leave my "Free" sign). Maybe another bucket or two forthcoming when I finish the sorting and storage job. WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) > > At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- > yay! So > glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the > plastic, > from the newspapers, etc., any more. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local > interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > >> You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a >> recycling can, and a green waste can. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly >> wrote: >> >>> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all >>> residents a >>> large >>> gray recycling bin. >>> >>> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now >>> our blue >>> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >>> >>> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >>> >>>> >>>> Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >>>> cereal >>>> boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >>>> re-use >>>> them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >>>> Deb Bratland >>> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >>> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >>> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! >>> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >>> storage bags. >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 20:39:11 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:39:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <0869CCB8-00ED-473A-9E7E-BF655C7DBBC7@teleport.com> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> <0869CCB8-00ED-473A-9E7E-BF655C7DBBC7@teleport.com> Message-ID: Uh, Walt.. That was me... I got two buckets for a friend who may be able to use them. If not - they go in front of my place for free! :) On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Hot dang, i must have a system going here... two more buckets of > colored glass bits disappeared (and yep, they did leave my "Free" > sign). Maybe another bucket or two forthcoming when I finish the > sorting and storage job. > WW > On Jul 16, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > > > ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) > > > > At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- > > yay! So > > glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the > > plastic, > > from the newspapers, etc., any more. > > > > > > Geri > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Debra Bratland" > > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM > > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local > > interests list" > > > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > > > >> You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a > >> recycling can, and a green waste can. > >> > >> Deb Bratland > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly > >> wrote: > >> > >>> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all > >>> residents a > >>> large > >>> gray recycling bin. > >>> > >>> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now > >>> our blue > >>> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. > >>> > >>> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. > >>> > >>> Don > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------Original Message------- > >>> > >>> From: Walt Wentz > >>> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM > >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of > >>>> cereal > >>>> boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then > >>>> re-use > >>>> them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. > >>>> Deb Bratland > >>> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather > >>> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've > >>> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! > >>> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator > >>> storage bags. > >>> WW > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 16 20:52:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> <0869CCB8-00ED-473A-9E7E-BF655C7DBBC7@teleport.com> Message-ID: OK... however it plays out, I'm grateful you took 'em... and hopefully your friend will pounce upon them with cries of glee. If not, hopefully the bits will continue to travel on, until they reach their artistic destiny. WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 8:39 PM, b Smith wrote: > Uh, Walt.. > That was me... > I got two buckets for a friend who may be able to use them. If > not - they > go in front of my place for free! > :) > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Hot dang, i must have a system going here... two more buckets of >> colored glass bits disappeared (and yep, they did leave my "Free" >> sign). Maybe another bucket or two forthcoming when I finish the >> sorting and storage job. >> WW >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >> >>> ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) >>> >>> At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- >>> yay! So >>> glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the >>> plastic, >>> from the newspapers, etc., any more. >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Debra Bratland" >>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM >>> To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local >>> interests list" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >>> >>>> You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage >>>> can, a >>>> recycling can, and a green waste can. >>>> >>>> Deb Bratland >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all >>>>> residents a >>>>> large >>>>> gray recycling bin. >>>>> >>>>> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now >>>>> our blue >>>>> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >>>>> >>>>> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>> >>>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>>> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >>>>>> cereal >>>>>> boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >>>>>> re-use >>>>>> them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >>>>> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >>>>> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good >>>>> idea! >>>>> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >>>>> storage bags. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 21:13:35 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:13:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com> <4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> Message-ID: <555C5B66D64041C4AC739C81A3B2B795@EdDaviePC> And yet, we still do it, by habit I guess. Ed From: Geri Steele Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:38 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- yay! So glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the plastic, from the newspapers, etc., any more. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a > recycling can, and a green waste can. > > Deb Bratland > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a >> large >> gray recycling bin. >> >> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue >> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >> >> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >> >> > >> > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >> > cereal >> > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >> > re-use >> > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >> > Deb Bratland >> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! >> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >> storage bags. >> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 21:39:21 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:39:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass In-Reply-To: <555C5B66D64041C4AC739C81A3B2B795@EdDaviePC> References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com><4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367><0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> <555C5B66D64041C4AC739C81A3B2B795@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <30E5322C3B934B7F8B7CE32E26D4A77A@GeriPC> : ) Know what you mean, Ed. Took me a while to break the habit. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:13 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > And yet, we still do it, by habit I guess. > Ed > > > > From: Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:38 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > > > ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) > > At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- yay! > So > glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the plastic, > from the newspapers, etc., any more. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests > list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > >> You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a >> recycling can, and a green waste can. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a >>> large >>> gray recycling bin. >>> >>> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue >>> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >>> >>> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >>> >>> > >>> > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >>> > cereal >>> > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >>> > re-use >>> > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >>> > Deb Bratland >>> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >>> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >>> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! >>> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >>> storage bags. >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 21:59:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:59:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass References: <8EA0DF8B-FC75-444B-AF78-ACA4EB1E083B@teleport.com><4C409DC0.00002A.01236@DON-B2514E06367><0B05B39B54FC46AB8481D9CA41029691@GeriPC> <555C5B66D64041C4AC739C81A3B2B795@EdDaviePC> <30E5322C3B934B7F8B7CE32E26D4A77A@GeriPC> Message-ID: <4C4138BE.000097.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Still got the little red bins for glass. Three of those on deck. Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/16/2010 9:39:33 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass : ) Know what you mean, Ed. Took me a while to break the habit. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Davie" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:13 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > And yet, we still do it, by habit I guess. > Ed > > > > From: Geri Steele > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:38 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > > > ... and the little red bins for glass only. : ) > > At least we got the big bins for mixed (except glass) recycling -- yay! > So > glad not to have to divide the cardboard from the cans, from the plastic, > from the newspapers, etc., any more. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Debra Bratland" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:03 AM > To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests > list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass > >> You must live outside of Forest Grove ... ? We have a garbage can, a >> recycling can, and a green waste can. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> One thing they did that helped started when they gave all residents a >>> large >>> gray recycling bin. >>> >>> So we put anything on the recyclable list in that bin, and now our blue >>> garbage can is only half full on Fridays. >>> >>> These items are picked up by two separate trucks. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: 7/16/2010 10:44:52 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Glass >>> >>> > >>> > Speaking of re-use, my mom taught me to re-use the bags inside of >>> > cereal >>> > boxes. They're much better than waxed paper - use them (and then >>> > re-use >>> > them many times) to wrap sandwiches or to crush cracker crumbs. >>> > Deb Bratland >>> You know, those damn liner bags are airtight, tougher than leather >>> and probably indestructible in a landfill... for that reason, I've >>> always resented putting them in the trash. Thanks for the good idea! >>> With a clothespin-type closer, They'll make good refrigerator >>> storage bags. >>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100716/6e98d7d8/attachment-0001.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 23:11:10 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:11:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] atmospheric phenomenom Message-ID: This is a cool picture of something. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/16/china-ufo-sightings-back_n_649244.html What? I don't know. Is it doctored? I don't know. I just think it looks cool. David From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 23:28:04 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:28:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember it, the city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new trash agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and didn't know our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of input from her staff to learn our history. That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city wide garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, and an opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the garage sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the week between the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good home." David On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long after WM > took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not remembering > correctly. > > Deb Bratland From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Jul 16 23:37:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:37:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many religions. > > Don From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 00:28:55 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 00:28:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Another benefit to the whole thing was the community feel. Everyone participated and it got people out and talking. I always looked forward to it. I'd be willing to pay a bit more on my garbage bill to bring it back. I also like your idea of a city-wide garage sale day. Deb Bratland On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember it, the > city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new trash > agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and didn't know > our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of input from > her staff to learn our history. > > That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city wide > garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, and an > opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the garage > sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the week between > the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good home." > > David > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > > agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long after WM > > took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > remembering > > correctly. > > > > Deb Bratland > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 17 06:38:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:38:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] atmospheric phenomenom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doesn't say if this is from the first or second sighting. This looks like something entering the atmosphere and burning up. The mention of a "military connection" might mean it was a falling satellite or a missile test. The second sighting's description of the "four lanterns in a diamond formation" that hovered over a park reminds me of the fire balloons mischievous college students launched back in the 1960s. These were quite simple to make, and on a windless night they would appear to hover in one spot high in the air, and generated UFO reports. WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:11 PM, David Morelli wrote: > This is a cool picture of something. > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/16/china-ufo-sightings- > back_n_649244.html > > What? I don't know. > > Is it doctored? I don't know. > > I just think it looks cool. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 17 06:43:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:43:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <9F2E9032-76D1-4BF0-A16F-07169FC71CBD@teleport.com> Perhaps we could push the city government to renegotiate the contract with WM next time it comes due? Surely WM could hire a few extra helpers, or have supervisors driving, for one day of the year. WW On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember > it, the city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > the new trash agreement without the trash day. She was new to the > city and didn't know our history. I had the impression that she > didn't take a lot of input from her staff to learn our history. > > That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > wide garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > city, and an opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > follow the garage sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup > day. In the week between the two events, the "excess" could be at > the curb "free to a good home." > > David > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's >> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >> after WM >> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >> remembering >> correctly. >> >> Deb Bratland > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 17 06:51:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:51:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> Message-ID: Except, of course, for the lives of "witches," "infidels," "apostates" and "others..." ;^) Although I suspect what Don was going to drag in was the whole abortion debate, with all its accumulated freight of entrenched positions... On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many religions. >> >> Don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 09:39:03 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:39:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Message-ID: <88624929.61978.1279384743245.JavaMail.root@vms170053> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100717/c18a2252/attachment.html From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 09:56:38 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:56:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: I like the idea of having a time where free to a good home would apply. I don't know if the charitable groups that bring a truck around would be interested in cruising the streets for resale worthy items as well as people Katie On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember > it, the city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > the new trash agreement without the trash day. She was new to the > city and didn't know our history. I had the impression that she > didn't take a lot of input from her staff to learn our history. > > That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > wide garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > city, and an opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > follow the garage sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup > day. In the week between the two events, the "excess" could be at > the curb "free to a good home." > > David > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's >> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >> after WM >> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >> remembering >> correctly. >> >> Deb Bratland > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 10:58:19 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:58:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, released some great items to the wild. I would be thrilled to participate again. Let's just do that. OK? Barb On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember it, the > city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new trash > agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and didn't know > our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of input from > her staff to learn our history. > > That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city wide > garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, and an > opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the garage > sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the week between > the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good home." > > David > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > > agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long after WM > > took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > remembering > > correctly. > > > > Deb Bratland > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 11:20:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:20:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would have been better all around for FG. Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough before hiring. Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. I don't attend Cornelius meetings all that much- - -I work so many times into the late evenings, but awhile back I was a member of the Cornelius zoning committee. That was before they blocked off 19th Avenue, which changed the whole zoning picture for that road south of the tracks., Anyway, I know. Kudda, Shudda, Wooda. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 7/17/2010 9:57:22 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash I like the idea of having a time where free to a good home would apply. I don't know if the charitable groups that bring a truck around would be interested in cruising the streets for resale worthy items as well as people Katie On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I remember > it, the city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > the new trash agreement without the trash day. She was new to the > city and didn't know our history. I had the impression that she > didn't take a lot of input from her staff to learn our history. > > That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > wide garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > city, and an opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > follow the garage sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup > day. In the week between the two events, the "excess" could be at > the curb "free to a good home." > > David > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's >> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >> after WM >> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >> remembering >> correctly. >> >> Deb Bratland > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100717/c50a96d8/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 11:24:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:24:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C41F54E.000029.00448@DON-B2514E06367> Fooled ya heh? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/17/2010 6:50:23 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) Except, of course, for the lives of "witches," "infidels," "apostates" and "others..." ;^) Although I suspect what Don was going to drag in was the whole abortion debate, with all its accumulated freight of entrenched positions... On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:07 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many religions. >> >> Don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100717/d1255f73/attachment.gif From jbcoops at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 13:58:46 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Impromptu B-B-Q potluck baseball/softball at Joseph Gale In-Reply-To: <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <780656.70952.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi all... Just talked to a fellow parent of another little leaguer.? We're going to meet up at Joseph Gale at 4pm today and try and get some pick up baseball going, b-b-q some hot dogs etc.? I hope that we can make this grow over the next month or so... remember when you were a kid and just played baseball during the summer with your friends?? We'd like to make this at least a weekly (if not daily) event. Regards, Jeff Cooper From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 16:41:47 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:41:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <162A48C8B47A4D13A65BBF3AAE826D80@JeffVAIO> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO><3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC> <162A48C8B47A4D13A65BBF3AAE826D80@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <59B0E954830948F8B71846F2ECCB7E1C@GeriPC> Yes, Marian. No problem. Sorry if my emphasis on the word *SHOULD* didn't come through on the original email. (Some people got my point; others didn't.) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:41 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > When I checked the website it said: > All applicants for driver licenses, instruction permits and ID cards - > including renewals and replacements - must provide proof that they are > citizens of the United States or are in the country legally, proof of > Social > Security number and proof of full legal name. > > This would prove that you are in the country legally, not necessarily a (S > citizen of the United States. Many legal resident aliens have driver's > licenses, but are not citizens. So a driver's license still doesn't prove > citizenship - I guess citizens of the US should be sure to carry their > passport or voter's registration card when in Arizona to prove > citizenship. > Legal resident aliens are required to carry their "green" cards to prove > they are here legally. > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Geri Steele" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:55 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> Nowadays, an Oregon driver's license should prove American citizenship. >> See >> what our new requirements are at http://www.oregondmv.com/ . >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:01 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American >>> citizenship. >>> A >>> passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. >>> I'm >>> sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>>> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be a >>>> target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened >>>> his >>>> mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's license >>>> or >>>> naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for >>>> 25 >>>> years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... >>>> >>>> --Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful human >>>> son, >>>> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >>>> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >>>> Native >>>> American relatives, etc., etc. >>>> >>>> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after years >>>> of >>>> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive >>>> attention >>>> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were >>>> stopping >>>> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >>>> >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most >>>>> of >>>>> his life. Mea culpa. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Deb. >>>>> >>>>> --Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have >>>>> been >>>>> in >>>>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before their >>>>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>>>> >>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, Chile, >>>>>> and >>>>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>>>>> guy." >>>>>> >>>>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>>>> >>>>>> --Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>> >>>>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of >>>>>> us. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America to >>>>>> 100 >>>>>> million people. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Never mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Don >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Don, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > From: donkelly >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>>>> >>>>>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>>>> already >>>>>> >>>>>> understands this tired argument. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>>>> >>>>>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>>>> >>>>>> > but fear it 'self? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>>>> accurate >>>>>> >>>>>> in practical terms. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 17 21:23:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:23:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <4C41F54E.000029.00448@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> <4C41F54E.000029.00448@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <99389318-0D59-4DC8-9CDC-A4F6636034EC@teleport.com> If you mean "fooled me" by assuming another man's identity, that is ... reason enough to ignore further communications. On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:24 AM, donkelly wrote: > Fooled ya heh? > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/17/2010 6:50:23 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) > > Except, of course, for the lives of "witches," "infidels," > "apostates" and "others..." ;^) > Although I suspect what Don was going to drag in was the whole > abortion debate, with all its accumulated freight of entrenched > positions... > On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:07 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many >>> religions. >>> >>> Don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 21:42:56 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:42:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <59B0E954830948F8B71846F2ECCB7E1C@GeriPC> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO><3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC> <162A48C8B47A4D13A65BBF3AAE826D80@JeffVAIO> <59B0E954830948F8B71846F2ECCB7E1C@GeriPC> Message-ID: <534E01F56450455C98D19696E3DB1B37@JeffVAIO> OK - I must be a bit thick today, because I totally missed your point. Did you mean that the driver's license "should" prove citizenship? Because if it did, there are lots of legal resident aliens who would not be able to obtain a driver's license. I'm confused. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Geri Steele" Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:41 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > Yes, Marian. No problem. Sorry if my emphasis on the word *SHOULD* > didn't > come through on the original email. (Some people got my point; others > didn't.) > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:41 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> When I checked the website it said: >> All applicants for driver licenses, instruction permits and ID cards - >> including renewals and replacements - must provide proof that they are >> citizens of the United States or are in the country legally, proof of >> Social >> Security number and proof of full legal name. >> >> This would prove that you are in the country legally, not necessarily a >> (S >> citizen of the United States. Many legal resident aliens have driver's >> licenses, but are not citizens. So a driver's license still doesn't >> prove >> citizenship - I guess citizens of the US should be sure to carry their >> passport or voter's registration card when in Arizona to prove >> citizenship. >> Legal resident aliens are required to carry their "green" cards to prove >> they are here legally. >> >> -Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Geri Steele" >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:55 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> Nowadays, an Oregon driver's license should prove American citizenship. >>> See >>> what our new requirements are at http://www.oregondmv.com/ . >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:01 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>>> I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American >>>> citizenship. >>>> A >>>> passport or voter's registration card is required to prove citizenship. >>>> I'm >>>> sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>>> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be >>>>> a >>>>> target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened >>>>> his >>>>> mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's >>>>> license >>>>> or >>>>> naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for >>>>> 25 >>>>> years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... >>>>> >>>>> --Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful >>>>> human >>>>> son, >>>>> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >>>>> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >>>>> Native >>>>> American relatives, etc., etc. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after >>>>> years >>>>> of >>>>> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive >>>>> attention >>>>> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were >>>>> stopping >>>>> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Geri >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for most >>>>>> of >>>>>> his life. Mea culpa. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Deb. >>>>>> >>>>>> --Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have >>>>>> been >>>>>> in >>>>>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before >>>>>> their >>>>>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, >>>>>>> Chile, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>>>>>> guy." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>>>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all of >>>>>>> us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> 100 >>>>>>> million people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Never mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > From: donkelly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> >>>>>>> understands this tired argument. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > but fear it 'self? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>>>>> accurate >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in practical terms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 22:08:31 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:08:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) In-Reply-To: <99389318-0D59-4DC8-9CDC-A4F6636034EC@teleport.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net>, , <297A727D-02AC-4AFC-ADA3-EBF60D09A89B@verizon.net><62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <34320640-1431-46E4-B8D 8-92E64B115C37@teleport.com> <000001cb24ff$ca6099e0$5f21cda0$@net> <4F515E38-62B6-47C4-B593-9FDA7C2FF632@teleport.com> <4C4091BC.000014.01236@DON-B2514E06367> <6F182F7A-067C-4ADD-B7E5-4836424AFAE6@verizon.net> <4C41F54E.000029.00448@DON-B2514E06367> <99389318-0D59-4DC8-9CDC-A4F6636034EC@teleport.com> Message-ID: Walt, I hit "send" and transmitted an empty response, instead of "delete", when I decided to to avoid adding a response this subject. David On Jul 17, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > If you mean "fooled me" by assuming another man's identity, that > is ... reason enough to ignore further communications. > > On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:24 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> Fooled ya heh? >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 7/17/2010 6:50:23 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Exposed etc. etc. etc. (and etc.) >> >> Except, of course, for the lives of "witches," "infidels," >> "apostates" and "others..." ;^) >> Although I suspect what Don was going to drag in was the whole >> abortion debate, with all its accumulated freight of entrenched >> positions... >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> >>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:07 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> One theory Walt is that sanctity of life is shared by many >>>> religions. >>>> >>>> Don >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet___________________ >> ____________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 22:15:36 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:15:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <27046734-EE41-4388-A734-4EE69233FA41@verizon.net> As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist in the search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. Sounds like Cheney helping Bush find a V.P. David On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would have been better all around for FG. > > Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough before hiring. > > Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. > ... > Don From waltw at teleport.com Sat Jul 17 22:46:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:46:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying to do it on a given day? WW On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > released > some great items to the wild. > I would be thrilled to participate again. > Let's just do that. > OK? > > Barb > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > wrote: > >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >> remember it, the >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >> trash >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >> didn't know >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >> input from >> her staff to learn our history. >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >> wide >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >> and an >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >> garage >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >> week between >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >> home." >> >> David >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>> after WM >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >> remembering >>> correctly. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 00:17:15 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:17:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of catching on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free garbage day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, you could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. And don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think it'd be a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for interesting and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and the like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to participate. In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy among us. jim On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, > but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying > to do it on a given day? > WW > On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > > > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > > released > > some great items to the wild. > > I would be thrilled to participate again. > > Let's just do that. > > OK? > > > > Barb > > > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > > wrote: > > > >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >> remember it, the > >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new > >> trash > >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > >> didn't know > >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of > >> input from > >> her staff to learn our history. > >> > >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > >> wide > >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, > >> and an > >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the > >> garage > >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > >> week between > >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good > >> home." > >> > >> David > >> > >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> > >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long > >>> after WM > >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > >> remembering > >>> correctly. > >>> > >>> Deb Bratland > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From kb-ent at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 01:06:20 2010 From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:06:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4C42B5FC.9010201@comcast.net> I miss the garbage day as well. If we do it on our own though what is to happen to the stuff that doesn't get picked up/chosen? It seems that WM is a very important partner. I have been using Freecycle a bit and that has been working well for me. Keith Jim Zaleski wrote: > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of catching > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free garbage > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, you > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. And > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think it'd be > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for interesting > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and the > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to participate. > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy > among us. > > jim > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >> to do it on a given day? >> WW >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >> >> > From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 07:35:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:35:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <14AE4203-E701-4751-A673-39FF35653AD8@teleport.com> That's a good idea, Jim. Instead of limiting the advance notice and the planning to just Grovenet, we could give advance notice to the newspaper, put up computer-printed fliers well before the event, etc. Casting it as a "return to the good old days" should appeal to a lot of people. And the most incredible white elephants would finally vacate people's garages, attics and basements. I got rid of a huge supermarket magazine rack on wheels a couple of weeks ago, that I had been planning (and failing) to turn into a tool rack for years. Now, presumably, some more dedicated mechanic is making good use of it. WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > catching > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" > free garbage > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you > said, you > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch > on. And > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think > it'd be > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > interesting > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days > and the > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > participate. > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more > needy > among us. > > jim > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >> to do it on a given day? >> WW >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >> >>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>> released >>> some great items to the wild. >>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>> Let's just do that. >>> OK? >>> >>> Barb >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>> wrote: >>> >>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>> remember it, the >>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>> trash >>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>> didn't know >>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>> input from >>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>> >>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >>>> wide >>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>> and an >>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>> garage >>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>> week between >>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>> home." >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>> >>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>> Management's >>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>> after WM >>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>> remembering >>>>> correctly. >>>>> >>>>> Deb Bratland >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sun Jul 18 09:08:28 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:08:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Just my two cents worth: I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because if it's done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or two days (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would attract more attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Zaleski" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of catching > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free > garbage > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, you > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. And > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think it'd > be > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > interesting > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and the > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > participate. > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy > among us. > > jim > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >> to do it on a given day? >> WW >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >> >> > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >> > released >> > some great items to the wild. >> > I would be thrilled to participate again. >> > Let's just do that. >> > OK? >> > >> > Barb >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >> > wrote: >> > >> >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >> >> remember it, the >> >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >> >> trash >> >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >> >> didn't know >> >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >> >> input from >> >> her staff to learn our history. >> >> >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >> >> wide >> >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >> >> and an >> >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >> >> garage >> >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >> >> week between >> >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >> >> home." >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >> >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's >> >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >> >>> after WM >> >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >> >> remembering >> >>> correctly. >> >>> >> >>> Deb Bratland >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 09:26:40 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:26:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> Right, Marian! And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Just my two cents worth: > I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because > if it's > done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or > two days > (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would > attract more > attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk > littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jim Zaleski" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >> catching >> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free >> garbage >> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >> said, you >> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >> on. And >> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >> think it'd >> be >> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >> interesting >> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >> and the >> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >> >> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >> participate. >> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >> needy >> among us. >> >> jim >> >> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >>> to do it on a given day? >>> WW >>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>> >>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>>> released >>>> some great items to the wild. >>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>> Let's just do that. >>>> OK? >>>> >>>> Barb >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>> remember it, the >>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>> trash >>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>> didn't know >>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>> input from >>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>> >>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >>>>> wide >>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>>> and an >>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>>> garage >>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>> week between >>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>>> home." >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>> Management's >>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>>> after WM >>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>>> remembering >>>>>> correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Sun Jul 18 09:35:57 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:35:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Message-ID: <382102848.66642.1279470957560.JavaMail.root@vms170017> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100718/466dd355/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 10:03:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:03:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> <27046734-EE41-4388-A734-4EE69233FA41@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> It was a serious and thoughtful pro community comment David. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 07/17/10 22:16:43 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist in the search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. Sounds like Cheney helping Bush find a V.P. David On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would have been better all around for FG. > > Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough before hiring. > > Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. > ... > Don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100718/3d113eb1/attachment.gif From smithsmith at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 10:35:15 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:35:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> <27046734-EE41-4388-A734-4EE69233FA41@verizon.net> <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: If it is useable stuff leftover, the Restore Store picks up items on Thursdays with their big (BIG) truck. So if the "Free Day" could end up with their truck picking up good items that are leftover. May want to confirm with Diane at the store if that would work for them. I can see a great partnership developing with them.... Barb On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 10:03 AM, donkelly wrote: > It was a serious and thoughtful pro community comment David. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: David Morelli > Date: 07/17/10 22:16:43 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist in the > search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. > > Sounds like Cheney helping Bush find a V.P. > > David > > On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would have > been better all around for FG. > > > > Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough > before hiring. > > > > Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. > > ... > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 11:22:20 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:22:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: I agree Marian, just got a little too excited I guess. I get this feeling this is an idea whose time has come. I have no idea if other cities or neighborhoods elsewhere have done this sort of thing, but, if not, we may just be able to start a movement. It sounds like great fun. Walt's suggestion that it not be associated in any way with the word "trash" is also a good one. Mark's question about liability issues is well placed. BTW: I'm sure everyone has seen the successful use of this curb-side "giveaway" in action with Miracle Sign on Pacific Ave. Andy puts some pretty knarly looking stuff out there with his "Free" sign, and no matter how unuseful it may look, someone usually takes it in a day or so. Cut-out leftovers from sign making (plastic and non-burnable)? For what? I just shake my head sometimes when I've seen someone's taken them. Go figure. "Free" is a very powerful and persuasive concept. Perhaps some people simply can't resist, and take things whether they need them or not. jimz On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Just my two cents worth: > I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because if it's > done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or two > days > (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would attract > more > attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk > littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jim Zaleski" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > catching > > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free > > garbage > > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, you > > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. And > > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think it'd > > be > > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > > interesting > > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and the > > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > > participate. > > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy > > among us. > > > > jim > > > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, > >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying > >> to do it on a given day? > >> WW > >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >> > >> > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > >> > released > >> > some great items to the wild. > >> > I would be thrilled to participate again. > >> > Let's just do that. > >> > OK? > >> > > >> > Barb > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >> >> remember it, the > >> >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new > >> >> trash > >> >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > >> >> didn't know > >> >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of > >> >> input from > >> >> her staff to learn our history. > >> >> > >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > >> >> wide > >> >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, > >> >> and an > >> >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the > >> >> garage > >> >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > >> >> week between > >> >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good > >> >> home." > >> >> > >> >> David > >> >> > >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > >> >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long > >> >>> after WM > >> >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > >> >> remembering > >> >>> correctly. > >> >>> > >> >>> Deb Bratland > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ljklaus at aol.com Sun Jul 18 11:42:20 2010 From: ljklaus at aol.com (ljklaus at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:42:20 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net><4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367><003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com><4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367><005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com><4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com><4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com><4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367><0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com><55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <8CCF4C016CAEDFD-1C6C-140EB@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> As a former Forest Grover, I know my kids adored the trash day. They and their friends would get on bikes the evening before and ride around looking for cool "stuff". I now live in Terra Linda and I was delighted that in early July there was a day called "Giveaway Day" or something like that...people put out piles of things they no longer wanted, others came around and collected what they needed/wanted. We went out of town that day and as we left in the morning, there were good-sized collections of things on the curb. When we returned in the evening, the remains were really small. Some folks left out the leftovers for a few more days and they continued to decrease. We got two excellent basketballs and a football for our grandson. I say, go for it! Good luck, and happy hunting! Lori Klaus -----Original Message----- From: Jim Zaleski To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 11:22 am Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash I agree Marian, just got a little too excited I guess. I get this feeling this is an idea whose time has come. I have no idea if other cities or neighborhoods elsewhere have done this sort of thing, but, if not, we may just be able to start a movement. It sounds like great fun. Walt's suggestion that it not be associated in any way with the word "trash" is also a good one. Mark's question about liability issues is well placed. BTW: I'm sure everyone has seen the successful use of this curb-side "giveaway" in action with Miracle Sign on Pacific Ave. Andy puts some pretty knarly looking stuff out there with his "Free" sign, and no matter how unuseful it may look, someone usually takes it in a day or so. Cut-out leftovers from sign making (plastic and non-burnable)? For what? I just shake my head sometimes when I've seen someone's taken them. Go figure. "Free" is a very powerful and persuasive concept. Perhaps some people simply can't resist, and take things whether they need them or not. jimz On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Just my two cents worth: > I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because if it's > done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or two > days > (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would attract > more > attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk > littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jim Zaleski" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > catching > > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free > > garbage > > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, you > > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. And > > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think it'd > > be > > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > > interesting > > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and the > > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > > participate. > > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy > > among us. > > > > jim > > > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, > >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying > >> to do it on a given day? > >> WW > >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >> > >> > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > >> > released > >> > some great items to the wild. > >> > I would be thrilled to participate again. > >> > Let's just do that. > >> > OK? > >> > > >> > Barb > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >> >> remember it, the > >> >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new > >> >> trash > >> >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > >> >> didn't know > >> >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of > >> >> input from > >> >> her staff to learn our history. > >> >> > >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > >> >> wide > >> >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, > >> >> and an > >> >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the > >> >> garage > >> >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > >> >> week between > >> >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good > >> >> home." > >> >> > >> >> David > >> >> > >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste Management's > >> >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long > >> >>> after WM > >> >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > >> >> remembering > >> >>> correctly. > >> >>> > >> >>> Deb Bratland > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 12:28:22 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:28:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> <27046734-EE41-4388-A734-4EE69233FA41@verizon.net> <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Excellent idea! The only limit would be the space they have available at the store. Therefore, we would have to let them "pick and choose" what they thought they could sell, and then get rid of any leftovers on our own, or with WM's assistance. On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:35 AM, b Smith wrote: > If it is useable stuff leftover, the Restore Store picks up items on > Thursdays with their big (BIG) truck. > > So if the "Free Day" could end up with their truck picking up good > items > that are leftover. > > May want to confirm with Diane at the store if that would work > for them. > > > I can see a great partnership developing with them.... > > > Barb > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 10:03 AM, donkelly > wrote: > >> It was a serious and thoughtful pro community comment David. >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: David Morelli >> Date: 07/17/10 22:16:43 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >> As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist >> in the >> search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. >> >> Sounds like Cheney helping Bush find a V.P. >> >> David >> >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that >>> would have >> been better all around for FG. >>> >>> Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly >>> enough >> before hiring. >>> >>> Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. >>> ... >>> Don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 12:39:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:39:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Yep, "Free" is the best incentive. I don't know just how much of an issue liability would be. After all, the stuff is given away, with no "quid pro quo," and usually with no interaction between the parties. Basically, it is nothing but salvage of abandoned property. Also, the stuff is placed on the strip near the curb, which is theoretically owned by the homeowner but is under city jurisdiction. As for Miracle Sign's giveaways, I nab any of that lightweight "Cor- Tex" corrugated plastic sign material they discard-- not only does it make great homemade signs (such as "FREE"), you can also use it for packing material, for padding, for building your own durable cartons and who knows what else. And otherwise you just have to find a recycler who will take it. Somebody who is good with Bureaucratese-- why don't we produce a statement incorporating all these ideas and send it to the City Council? WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > I agree Marian, just got a little too excited I guess. I get this > feeling > this is an idea whose time has come. I have no idea if other cities or > neighborhoods elsewhere have done this sort of thing, but, if not, > we may > just be able to start a movement. It sounds like great fun. Walt's > suggestion that it not be associated in any way with the word > "trash" is > also a good one. Mark's question about liability issues is well > placed. > > BTW: I'm sure everyone has seen the successful use of this curb-side > "giveaway" in action with Miracle Sign on Pacific Ave. Andy puts > some pretty > knarly looking stuff out there with his "Free" sign, and no matter how > unuseful it may look, someone usually takes it in a day or so. Cut-out > leftovers from sign making (plastic and non-burnable)? For what? I > just > shake my head sometimes when I've seen someone's taken them. Go > figure. > "Free" is a very powerful and persuasive concept. Perhaps some > people simply > can't resist, and take things whether they need them or not. > > jimz > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis > wrote: > >> Just my two cents worth: >> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >> if it's >> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one >> or two >> days >> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >> attract >> more >> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Jim Zaleski" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >> catching >>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free >>> garbage >>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>> said, you >>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>> on. And >>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>> think it'd >>> be >>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>> interesting >>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>> and the >>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>> >>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>> participate. >>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>> needy >>> among us. >>> >>> jim >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on >>>> it, >>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>> trying >>>> to do it on a given day? >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>>>> released >>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>> OK? >>>>> >>>>> Barb >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>> trash >>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>> didn't know >>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>> input from >>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>> city >>>>>> wide >>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>>>> and an >>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>>>> garage >>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>> week between >>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>>>> home." >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>>>> remembering >>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 12:43:47 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:43:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Politically Correct In-Reply-To: <534E01F56450455C98D19696E3DB1B37@JeffVAIO> References: <4C3EAA18.0000B1.03140@DON-B2514E06367><4C3F3C76.000016.01452@DON-B2514E06367><00d301cb2453$21767d10$64637730$@com><4C3F6458.00005B.01452@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E305690A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30569EE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><20B7D191D56F43229FEBC052FE2D9853@GeriPC><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E30EE77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><9440889ADC0B4EAE9CB66BE5F4CD3D9C@JeffVAIO><3C9300F410FB427A8C572A124438ED8C@GeriPC><162A48C8B47A4D13A65BBF3AAE826D80@JeffVAIO><59B0E954830948F8B71846F2ECCB7E1C@GeriPC> <534E01F56450455C98D19696E3DB1B37@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <1A83BD41BB9744A0860F12131F9B2617@GeriPC> I really must apologize to you, Marian. I didn't mean it to be taken so literally. There are so many requirements now just to renew one's license -- even if you've had one for 40+ years! -- that I mean they *should* go ahead and make them prove citizenship. Truly, my goof, and am sorry to have confused you. And I do agree actually that legal resident aliens can have licenses, too, etc. But in not meaning *should* too literally, I of course wasn't taking everyone into account...purposely. I do believe it was I who was thick, when I sent that out, LOL! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 9:42 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > OK - I must be a bit thick today, because I totally missed your point. > > Did you mean that the driver's license "should" prove citizenship? > Because > if it did, there are lots of legal resident aliens who would not be able > to > obtain a driver's license. > > I'm confused. > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Geri Steele" > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:41 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct > >> Yes, Marian. No problem. Sorry if my emphasis on the word *SHOULD* >> didn't >> come through on the original email. (Some people got my point; others >> didn't.) >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:41 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >> >>> When I checked the website it said: >>> All applicants for driver licenses, instruction permits and ID cards - >>> including renewals and replacements - must provide proof that they are >>> citizens of the United States or are in the country legally, proof of >>> Social >>> Security number and proof of full legal name. >>> >>> This would prove that you are in the country legally, not necessarily a >>> (S >>> citizen of the United States. Many legal resident aliens have driver's >>> licenses, but are not citizens. So a driver's license still doesn't >>> prove >>> citizenship - I guess citizens of the US should be sure to carry their >>> passport or voter's registration card when in Arizona to prove >>> citizenship. >>> Legal resident aliens are required to carry their "green" cards to prove >>> they are here legally. >>> >>> -Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Geri Steele" >>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 6:55 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>> >>>> Nowadays, an Oregon driver's license should prove American citizenship. >>>> See >>>> what our new requirements are at http://www.oregondmv.com/ . >>>> >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 1:01 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure a driver's license will actually prove American >>>>> citizenship. >>>>> A >>>>> passport or voter's registration card is required to prove >>>>> citizenship. >>>>> I'm >>>>> sure everyone carries those things around with them - right? >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:52 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>> >>>>>> Right, Geri...it's the same kid. And now that I think of it, he'd be >>>>>> a >>>>>> target of attention for the authorities in Arizona...until he opened >>>>>> his >>>>>> mouth and sounds "totally American" and shows them his driver's >>>>>> license >>>>>> or >>>>>> naturalization papers. Of course, because he's been a US citizen for >>>>>> 25 >>>>>> years, he may not even know where those papers are. Oooops... >>>>>> >>>>>> --Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Geri Steele >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:47 PM >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>> >>>>>> OH, is our son "brown," honey? ;-) I thought he was a beautiful >>>>>> human >>>>>> son, >>>>>> equal to our other beautiful human daughter & sons. Equally human & >>>>>> beautiful is our Tongan daughter-in-law, my black/white cousins, my >>>>>> Native >>>>>> American relatives, etc., etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, our "brown" son has a sense of humor about this. Even after >>>>>> years >>>>>> of >>>>>> growing up when he sometimes received unnecessarily destructive >>>>>> attention >>>>>> from others (including some in authority, i.e., police who were >>>>>> stopping >>>>>> people walking or driving for no reason other than color). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Geri >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Steele, Mike" >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:31 PM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>> >>>>>>> And I should have said "we" as Geri was his stay at home Mom for >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> his life. Mea culpa. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, waiting for Don's answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Deb. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Debra Bratland >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:00 PM >>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, Mike. My white/hispanic children have ancestors who have >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> what is now the United States since the early 1500s, long before >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> "white" forebearers (my side) came in the late 1800s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steele, Mike >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have a son, now a counselor at Glencoe HS, born in Santiago, >>>>>>>> Chile, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> adopted in 1979. He calls himself, now and then, "the little brown >>>>>>>> guy." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Something wrong with him, Don? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of donkelly >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:42 PM >>>>>>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It doesn't marginalize the threat with me? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No matter the candy coating, they are still intent on killing all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe that is part of the plan to reduce the population of America >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> 100 >>>>>>>> million people. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or perhaps, a plan to replace white people with brown people. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Never mind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Jeff Howden >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date: 7/15/2010 12:23:23 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Politically Correct >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > From: donkelly >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that it is not the gun that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > kills, it is the person behind the gun? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think most any reasonably intelligent person, including Obama, >>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> understands this tired argument. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Could Obama be convinced that failure to describe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > terrorism for what it is, marginalizes the threat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Could you be convinced that it doesn't marginalize the threat? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Could Obama support the term, "there is nothing to fear, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > but fear it 'self? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a heady philosophical statement, but I'm not sure that it's >>>>>>>> accurate >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in practical terms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 12:45:59 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:45:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> Message-ID: "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Right, Marian! > And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things > that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," > but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's > big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support > them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV > set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. > The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... > that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept > hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > WW > On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> Just my two cents worth: >> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >> if it's >> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >> two days >> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >> attract more >> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Jim Zaleski" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>> catching >>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free >>> garbage >>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>> said, you >>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>> on. And >>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>> think it'd >>> be >>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>> interesting >>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>> and the >>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>> >>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>> participate. >>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>> needy >>> among us. >>> >>> jim >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >>>> to do it on a given day? >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>>>> released >>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>> OK? >>>>> >>>>> Barb >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>> trash >>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>> didn't know >>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>> input from >>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >>>>>> wide >>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>>>> and an >>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>>>> garage >>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>> week between >>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>>>> home." >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>>>> remembering >>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 12:47:01 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:47:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent idea, Barb ~ will be interesting to see if Diane likes this.... :) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "b Smith" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:35 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > If it is useable stuff leftover, the Restore Store picks up items on > Thursdays with their big (BIG) truck. > > So if the "Free Day" could end up with their truck picking up good items > that are leftover. > > May want to confirm with Diane at the store if that would work for them. > > > I can see a great partnership developing with them.... > > > Barb > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 10:03 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> It was a serious and thoughtful pro community comment David. >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: David Morelli >> Date: 07/17/10 22:16:43 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >> As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist in the >> search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. >> >> Sounds like Cheney helping Bush find a V.P. >> >> David >> >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >> > I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would >> > have >> been better all around for FG. >> > >> > Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough >> before hiring. >> > >> > Is this an indication that more people should attend city meetings. >> > ... >> > Don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From smithsmith at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 13:24:25 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:24:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <8CCF4C016CAEDFD-1C6C-140EB@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <8CCF4C016CAEDFD-1C6C-140EB@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I like the name - "Give Away Day!" On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, wrote: > As a former Forest Grover, I know my kids adored the trash day. They and > their friends would get on bikes the evening before and ride around looking > for cool "stuff". I now live in Terra Linda and I was delighted that in > early July there was a day called "Giveaway Day" or something like > that...people put out piles of things they no longer wanted, others came > around and collected what they needed/wanted. We went out of town that day > and as we left in the morning, there were good-sized collections of things > on the curb. When we returned in the evening, the remains were really > small. Some folks left out the leftovers for a few more days and they > continued to decrease. We got two excellent basketballs and a football for > our grandson. I say, go for it! Good luck, and happy hunting! > > > Lori Klaus > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Zaleski > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 11:22 am > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > I agree Marian, just got a little too excited I guess. I get this feeling > this is an idea whose time has come. I have no idea if other cities or > neighborhoods elsewhere have done this sort of thing, but, if not, we may > just be able to start a movement. It sounds like great fun. Walt's > suggestion that it not be associated in any way with the word "trash" is > also a good one. Mark's question about liability issues is well placed. > > BTW: I'm sure everyone has seen the successful use of this curb-side > "giveaway" in action with Miracle Sign on Pacific Ave. Andy puts some > pretty > knarly looking stuff out there with his "Free" sign, and no matter how > unuseful it may look, someone usually takes it in a day or so. Cut-out > leftovers from sign making (plastic and non-burnable)? For what? I just > shake my head sometimes when I've seen someone's taken them. Go figure. > "Free" is a very powerful and persuasive concept. Perhaps some people > simply > can't resist, and take things whether they need them or not. > > jimz > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis >wrote: > > > Just my two cents worth: > > I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because if it's > > done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or two > > days > > (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would attract > > more > > attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk > > littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > > > > Marian > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Jim Zaleski" > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > > > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > > catching > > > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free > > > garbage > > > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, > you > > > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. > And > > > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think > it'd > > > be > > > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > > > interesting > > > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and > the > > > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > > > > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > > > participate. > > > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more needy > > > among us. > > > > > > jim > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > > > > > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, > > >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying > > >> to do it on a given day? > > >> WW > > >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > > >> > > >> > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > > >> > released > > >> > some great items to the wild. > > >> > I would be thrilled to participate again. > > >> > Let's just do that. > > >> > OK? > > >> > > > >> > Barb > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > > >> >> remember it, the > > >> >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new > > >> >> trash > > >> >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > > >> >> didn't know > > >> >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of > > >> >> input from > > >> >> her staff to learn our history. > > >> >> > > >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city > > >> >> wide > > >> >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, > > >> >> and an > > >> >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the > > >> >> garage > > >> >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > > >> >> week between > > >> >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good > > >> >> home." > > >> >> > > >> >> David > > >> >> > > >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > Management's > > >> >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long > > >> >>> after WM > > >> >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > > >> >> remembering > > >> >>> correctly. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Deb Bratland > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 13:26:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:26:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C43638D.000013.03260@DON-B2514E06367> Anything wrong with White Donkey day -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 7/18/2010 12:46:18 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Right, Marian! > And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things > that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," > but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's > big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support > them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV > set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. > The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... > that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept > hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > WW > On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> Just my two cents worth: >> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >> if it's >> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >> two days >> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >> attract more >> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Jim Zaleski" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>> catching >>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free >>> garbage >>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>> said, you >>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>> on. And >>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>> think it'd >>> be >>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>> interesting >>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>> and the >>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>> >>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>> participate. >>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>> needy >>> among us. >>> >>> jim >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >>>> to do it on a given day? >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>>>> released >>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>> OK? >>>>> >>>>> Barb >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>> trash >>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>> didn't know >>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>> input from >>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >>>>>> wide >>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>>>> and an >>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>>>> garage >>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>> week between >>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>>>> home." >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>>>> remembering >>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100718/e0c2424e/attachment.gif From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 14:39:15 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:39:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <8CCF4C016CAEDFD-1C6C-140EB@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'll second that Barb. Nice ring to it. Catchy. Enticing. Easy to remember. On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 1:24 PM, b Smith wrote: > I like the name - "Give Away Day!" > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, wrote: > > > As a former Forest Grover, I know my kids adored the trash day. They and > > their friends would get on bikes the evening before and ride around > looking > > for cool "stuff". I now live in Terra Linda and I was delighted that in > > early July there was a day called "Giveaway Day" or something like > > that...people put out piles of things they no longer wanted, others came > > around and collected what they needed/wanted. We went out of town that > day > > and as we left in the morning, there were good-sized collections of > things > > on the curb. When we returned in the evening, the remains were really > > small. Some folks left out the leftovers for a few more days and they > > continued to decrease. We got two excellent basketballs and a football > for > > our grandson. I say, go for it! Good luck, and happy hunting! > > > > > > Lori Klaus > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Zaleski > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Sent: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 11:22 am > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > > > > I agree Marian, just got a little too excited I guess. I get this feeling > > this is an idea whose time has come. I have no idea if other cities or > > neighborhoods elsewhere have done this sort of thing, but, if not, we may > > just be able to start a movement. It sounds like great fun. Walt's > > suggestion that it not be associated in any way with the word "trash" is > > also a good one. Mark's question about liability issues is well placed. > > > > BTW: I'm sure everyone has seen the successful use of this curb-side > > "giveaway" in action with Miracle Sign on Pacific Ave. Andy puts some > > pretty > > knarly looking stuff out there with his "Free" sign, and no matter how > > unuseful it may look, someone usually takes it in a day or so. Cut-out > > leftovers from sign making (plastic and non-burnable)? For what? I just > > shake my head sometimes when I've seen someone's taken them. Go figure. > > "Free" is a very powerful and persuasive concept. Perhaps some people > > simply > > can't resist, and take things whether they need them or not. > > > > jimz > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis < > oldredwagon at verizon.net > > >wrote: > > > > > Just my two cents worth: > > > I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because if > it's > > > done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or two > > > days > > > (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would attract > > > more > > > attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk > > > littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > > > > > > Marian > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > From: "Jim Zaleski" > > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > > > > > I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > > > catching > > > > on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free > > > > garbage > > > > day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you said, > > you > > > > could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch on. > > And > > > > don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I think > > it'd > > > > be > > > > a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > > > > interesting > > > > and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days and > > the > > > > like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > > > > > > > > Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > > > > participate. > > > > In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more > needy > > > > among us. > > > > > > > > jim > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, > > > >> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying > > > >> to do it on a given day? > > > >> WW > > > >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, > > > >> > released > > > >> > some great items to the wild. > > > >> > I would be thrilled to participate again. > > > >> > Let's just do that. > > > >> > OK? > > > >> > > > > >> > Barb > > > >> > > > > >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > > > >> >> remember it, the > > > >> >> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new > > > >> >> trash > > > >> >> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > > > >> >> didn't know > > > >> >> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of > > > >> >> input from > > > >> >> her staff to learn our history. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a > city > > > >> >> wide > > > >> >> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, > > > >> >> and an > > > >> >> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the > > > >> >> garage > > > >> >> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > > > >> >> week between > > > >> >> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good > > > >> >> home." > > > >> >> > > > >> >> David > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > > Management's > > > >> >>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long > > > >> >>> after WM > > > >> >>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not > > > >> >> remembering > > > >> >>> correctly. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> Deb Bratland > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Jul 18 20:38:57 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:38:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> References: <14AA66C9-DFA8-433E-8CB3-6200AFCBCDA8@verizon.net> <62B77234-AB38-4765-9B65-6B32563E1311@teleport.com> <806308662-1279120390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-843905566-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4C3DE756.000008.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <000901cb23a1$2525eb60$6f71c220$@com> <4C3E3BEE.000050.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <002b01cb23ac$58760df0$096229d0$@com> <4C3E4E67.000070.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <003701cb23dc$d8baf720$8a30e560$@com> <4C3EA8DB.0000AE.03140@DON-B2514E06367> <005201cb23e9$bbafe4d0$330fae70$@com> <4C3F414D.000024.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00ad01cb244a$be50fe70$3af2fb50$@com> <4C3F5990.00004A.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <00e201cb2457$55d24770$0176d650$@com> <4C3F7100.000067.01452@DON-B2514E06367> <0BC1360E-ED2B-411D-BF47-58C1A1D7A5B9@teleport.com> <55EB7DF410504ED199065681A40062FD@JeffVAIO> <4C41F469.000026.00448@DON-B2514E06367> <27046734-EE41-4388-A734-4EE69233FA41@verizon.net> <4C4333F0.00000A.03260@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Yes. My response was an attempt to add history to what happened. David On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:03 AM, donkelly wrote: > It was a serious and thoughtful pro community comment David. > > Don > From: David Morelli > > As I recall, the city council hired a temporary manager to assist in the search for a permanent manager, and then hired the temp. > > David > > > > On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > >> I suspect the city could have hired a local manager, and that would have been better all around for FG. >> >> Perhaps the City Counsel did not vet the new manager thoroughly enough before hiring. > ... >> Don From kb-ent at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 21:26:31 2010 From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:26:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C43D3F7.2070307@comcast.net> I love that... Keith Geri Steele wrote: > "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> Right, Marian! >> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," >> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's >> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept >> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >> >>> Just my two cents worth: >>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>> if it's >>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >>> two days >>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>> attract more >>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>> >>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>> catching >>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" free >>>> garbage >>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>> said, you >>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>> on. And >>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>> think it'd >>>> be >>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>> interesting >>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>> and the >>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>> participate. >>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>> needy >>>> among us. >>>> >>>> jim >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign on it, >>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone trying >>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in turn, >>>>>> released >>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>> OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> Barb >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>>> trash >>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>>> input from >>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a city >>>>>>> wide >>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the city, >>>>>>> and an >>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow the >>>>>>> garage >>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>> week between >>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a good >>>>>>> home." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too long >>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3014 - Release Date: 07/18/10 11:35:00 > > From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 22:15:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:15:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an expensive and useless burden. WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> Right, Marian! >> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," >> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's >> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept >> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> Just my two cents worth: >>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>> if it's >>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >>> two days >>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>> attract more >>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>> catching >>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>> free >>>> garbage >>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>> said, you >>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>> on. And >>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>> think it'd >>>> be >>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>> interesting >>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>> and the >>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>> participate. >>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>> needy >>>> among us. >>>> >>>> jim >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>> on it, >>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>> trying >>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>> turn, >>>>>> released >>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>> OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> Barb >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>>> trash >>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>>> input from >>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>> city >>>>>>> wide >>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>> city, >>>>>>> and an >>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> garage >>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>> week between >>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> home." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 22:16:43 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 05:16:43 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com><31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> Message-ID: <562599210-1279516608-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-448730486-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> White elephant sounds too political as described. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:15:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an expensive and useless burden. WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> Right, Marian! >> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," >> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's >> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept >> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> Just my two cents worth: >>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>> if it's >>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >>> two days >>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>> attract more >>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>> catching >>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>> free >>>> garbage >>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>> said, you >>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>> on. And >>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>> think it'd >>>> be >>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>> interesting >>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>> and the >>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>> participate. >>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>> needy >>>> among us. >>>> >>>> jim >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>> on it, >>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>> trying >>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>> turn, >>>>>> released >>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>> OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> Barb >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>>> trash >>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>>> input from >>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>> city >>>>>>> wide >>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>> city, >>>>>>> and an >>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> garage >>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>> week between >>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> home." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 22:24:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:24:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com><31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <562599210-1279516608-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-448730486-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C43E188.000081.03260@DON-B2514E06367> As also does White Donkey. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 7/18/2010 10:17:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash White elephant sounds too political as described. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:15:48 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an expensive and useless burden. WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> Right, Marian! >> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," >> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's >> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept >> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> Just my two cents worth: >>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>> if it's >>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >>> two days >>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>> attract more >>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>> catching >>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>> free >>>> garbage >>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>> said, you >>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>> on. And >>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>> think it'd >>>> be >>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>> interesting >>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>> and the >>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>> participate. >>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>> needy >>>> among us. >>>> >>>> jim >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>> on it, >>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>> trying >>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>> turn, >>>>>> released >>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>> OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> Barb >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>>> trash >>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>>> input from >>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>> city >>>>>>> wide >>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>> city, >>>>>>> and an >>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> garage >>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>> week between >>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> home." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100718/02973666/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sun Jul 18 22:26:12 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:26:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> Message-ID: What about some kind of fun name..... Gold digging day! Quest day! Save the landfill day... Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative grovenetters can come up with something fun.... Suggestions? -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White > Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an > expensive and useless burden. > WW > On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> Right, Marian! >>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building material," >>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think it's >>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've kept >>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>> WW >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>> >>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>>> if it's >>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to one or >>>> two days >>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>> attract more >>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of junk >>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>> >>>> Marian >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>> >>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>>> catching >>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>>> free >>>>> garbage >>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>> said, you >>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>>> on. And >>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>> think it'd >>>>> be >>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>>> interesting >>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>>> and the >>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>>> participate. >>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>>> needy >>>>> among us. >>>>> >>>>> jim >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>> on it, >>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>> trying >>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>> WW >>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>> released >>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated the new >>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a lot of >>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 22:33:29 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:33:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> Message-ID: <001001cb2703$eba279b0$c2e76d10$@net> Grove Gold. Get it sponsored by the university and call it PU Day. From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 18 22:37:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:37:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> Message-ID: <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... or, Debris Day... Musical Discards Day... Scavenger Hunt Day... Loot Like a Pirate Day... Curbside Shopping Day... Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater skit?) Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... C'mon, people, more suggestions... WW On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > What about some kind of fun name..... > Gold digging day! > Quest day! > Save the landfill day... > > Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative > grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > Suggestions? > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an >> expensive and useless burden. >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >> >>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> Right, Marian! >>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>> material," >>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>> it's >>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>> kept >>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>>>> if it's >>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>> one or >>>>> two days >>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>> attract more >>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>> junk >>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>> >>>>> Marian >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>> >>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>>>> catching >>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>>>> free >>>>>> garbage >>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>> said, you >>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>>>> on. And >>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>> think it'd >>>>>> be >>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>>>> interesting >>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>>>> and the >>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>>>> participate. >>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>>>> needy >>>>>> among us. >>>>>> >>>>>> jim >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>> trying >>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>> WW >>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 23:27:37 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 23:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com><31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: "Finders, Keepers Day." I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > or, Debris Day... > Musical Discards Day... > Scavenger Hunt Day... > Loot Like a Pirate Day... > Curbside Shopping Day... > Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > skit?) > > Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > > C'mon, people, more suggestions... > WW > On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> What about some kind of fun name..... >> Gold digging day! >> Quest day! >> Save the landfill day... >> >> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative >> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >> Suggestions? >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an >>> expensive and useless burden. >>> WW >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>> >>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>> >>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>> material," >>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>> it's >>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>> kept >>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>>>>> if it's >>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>> one or >>>>>> two days >>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>> attract more >>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>> junk >>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>> >>>>>> Marian >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>>>>> catching >>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>>>>> needy >>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 23:37:14 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 23:37:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: Come and Get It Day Score in the Grove Day Cart it Off Day It's Your Lucky Day! Curbside Exchange Day Curbside Giveaway Day PU Day is too funny, Steve. Do you think we can really make this happen? Deb Bratland On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > "Finders, Keepers Day." > > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > > or, Debris Day... > > Musical Discards Day... > > Scavenger Hunt Day... > > Loot Like a Pirate Day... > > Curbside Shopping Day... > > Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > > skit?) > > > > Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > > > > C'mon, people, more suggestions... > > WW > > On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > > >> What about some kind of fun name..... > >> Gold digging day! > >> Quest day! > >> Save the landfill day... > >> > >> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative > >> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >> Suggestions? > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > >>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White > >>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an > >>> expensive and useless burden. > >>> WW > >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >>> > >>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > >>>> > >>>> Geri > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>> > >>>>> Right, Marian! > >>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things > >>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > >>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building > >>>>> material," > >>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think > >>>>> it's > >>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support > >>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV > >>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > >>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. > >>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... > >>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've > >>>>> kept > >>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > >>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > >>>>> WW > >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because > >>>>>> if it's > >>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to > >>>>>> one or > >>>>>> two days > >>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would > >>>>>> attract more > >>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of > >>>>>> junk > >>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marian > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of > >>>>>>> catching > >>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" > >>>>>>> free > >>>>>>> garbage > >>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you > >>>>>>> said, you > >>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch > >>>>>>> on. And > >>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I > >>>>>>> think it'd > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > >>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days > >>>>>>> and the > >>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > >>>>>>> participate. > >>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more > >>>>>>> needy > >>>>>>> among us. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> jim > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign > >>>>>>>> on it, > >>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone > >>>>>>>> trying > >>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >>>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in > >>>>>>>>> turn, > >>>>>>>>> released > >>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. > >>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >>>>>>>>> OK? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Barb > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > >>>>>>>>>> the new > >>>>>>>>>> trash > >>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a > >>>>>>>>>> lot of > >>>>>>>>>> input from > >>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a > >>>>>>>>>> city > >>>>>>>>>> wide > >>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > >>>>>>>>>> city, > >>>>>>>>>> and an > >>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> garage > >>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the > >>>>>>>>>> week between > >>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a > >>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>> home." > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> David > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > >>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too > >>>>>>>>>>> long > >>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm > >>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>> remembering > >>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 07:24:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:24:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <001001cb2703$eba279b0$c2e76d10$@net> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <001001cb2703$eba279b0$c2e76d10$@net> Message-ID: <36FFC5F2-300B-4067-9C70-FF010F7B73EF@teleport.com> PU = Pick Up... that could work. Although I don't really know whether we would even need a sponsor, since expenses (printer paper, free notices in the News-Times) should be minimal. What we would really need is a lead person or steering committee, to make decisions and push the event along. Somebody, i hasten to add, with more spare time than i have at the moment! Walt On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Steven wrote: > Grove Gold. > Get it sponsored by the university and call it PU Day. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 07:30:32 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:30:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> "It's Your Lucky Day" is fun. One suggestion, maybe we could have this "Hauliday" at a time when everyone is likely to be back in town, but not yet too busy with school preparations... say, late August or early September, when the weather is still likely to be nice? Or should we have it in midsummer? Any ideas? On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Come and Get It Day > Score in the Grove Day > Cart it Off Day > It's Your Lucky Day! > Curbside Exchange Day > Curbside Giveaway Day > > PU Day is too funny, Steve. > > Do you think we can really make this happen? > > Deb Bratland > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele steele at comcast.net>wrote: > >> "Finders, Keepers Day." >> >> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >>> or, Debris Day... >>> Musical Discards Day... >>> Scavenger Hunt Day... >>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... >>> Curbside Shopping Day... >>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater >>> skit?) >>> >>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >>> >>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... >>> WW >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>> >>>> What about some kind of fun name..... >>>> Gold digging day! >>>> Quest day! >>>> Save the landfill day... >>>> >>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other >>>> creative >>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >>>> Suggestions? >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>> >>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that >>>>> is an >>>>> expensive and useless burden. >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>>>> >>>>>> Geri >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>> >>>>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>>>> material," >>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, >>>>>>> support >>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still >>>>>>> working TV >>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the >>>>>>> curb. >>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor >>>>>>> lamp... >>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>>>> kept >>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>>>> WW >>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> if it's >>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>>>> one or >>>>>>>> two days >>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>>>> attract more >>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>>>> junk >>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a >>>>>>>>> habit of >>>>>>>>> catching >>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another >>>>>>>>> "unlimited" >>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could >>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale >>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire >>>>>>>>> others to >>>>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of >>>>>>>>> the more >>>>>>>>> needy >>>>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> jim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the >>>>>>>>>>>> city and >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could >>>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could >>>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. >>>>>>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free >>>>>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but >>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 07:48:57 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:48:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> Message-ID: Hauliday is perfect. That gets my vote. I was thinking about somewhere around the 3rd weekend in September ... maybe mesh it with the chalk art festival (when is that?). End of August/start of September is when people get in their last hurrahs before school starts - or at least, that's what my family does. But if someone takes it and runs with it, I'll support any date they choose. Deb Bratland On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > "It's Your Lucky Day" is fun. > One suggestion, maybe we could have this "Hauliday" at a time when > everyone is likely to be back in town, but not yet too busy with > school preparations... say, late August or early September, when the > weather is still likely to be nice? Or should we have it in > midsummer? Any ideas? > > On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Come and Get It Day > > Score in the Grove Day > > Cart it Off Day > > It's Your Lucky Day! > > Curbside Exchange Day > > Curbside Giveaway Day > > > > PU Day is too funny, Steve. > > > > Do you think we can really make this happen? > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele > steele at comcast.net>wrote: > > > >> "Finders, Keepers Day." > >> > >> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > >> > >> > >> Geri > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > >>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > >>> or, Debris Day... > >>> Musical Discards Day... > >>> Scavenger Hunt Day... > >>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > >>> Curbside Shopping Day... > >>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > >>> skit?) > >>> > >>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > >>> > >>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > >>> WW > >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>> > >>>> What about some kind of fun name..... > >>>> Gold digging day! > >>>> Quest day! > >>>> Save the landfill day... > >>>> > >>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other > >>>> creative > >>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >>>> Suggestions? > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>> > >>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White > >>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that > >>>>> is an > >>>>> expensive and useless burden. > >>>>> WW > >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Geri > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Right, Marian! > >>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with > >>>>>>> things > >>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > >>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building > >>>>>>> material," > >>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think > >>>>>>> it's > >>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still > >>>>>>> working TV > >>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > >>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the > >>>>>>> curb. > >>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor > >>>>>>> lamp... > >>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've > >>>>>>> kept > >>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > >>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > >>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, > >>>>>>>> because > >>>>>>>> if it's > >>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to > >>>>>>>> one or > >>>>>>>> two days > >>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would > >>>>>>>> attract more > >>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of > >>>>>>>> junk > >>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marian > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a > >>>>>>>>> habit of > >>>>>>>>> catching > >>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another > >>>>>>>>> "unlimited" > >>>>>>>>> free > >>>>>>>>> garbage > >>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you > >>>>>>>>> said, you > >>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could > >>>>>>>>> catch > >>>>>>>>> on. And > >>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I > >>>>>>>>> think it'd > >>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking > >>>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale > >>>>>>>>> days > >>>>>>>>> and the > >>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire > >>>>>>>>> others to > >>>>>>>>> participate. > >>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of > >>>>>>>>> the more > >>>>>>>>> needy > >>>>>>>>> among us. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> jim > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign > >>>>>>>>>> on it, > >>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone > >>>>>>>>>> trying > >>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >>>>>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in > >>>>>>>>>>> turn, > >>>>>>>>>>> released > >>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. > >>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >>>>>>>>>>> OK? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Barb > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > >>>>>>>>>>>> the new > >>>>>>>>>>>> trash > >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city and > >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a > >>>>>>>>>>>> lot of > >>>>>>>>>>>> input from > >>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could > >>>>>>>>>>>> have a > >>>>>>>>>>>> city > >>>>>>>>>>>> wide > >>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city, > >>>>>>>>>>>> and an > >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > >>>>>>>>>>>> follow > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> garage > >>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. > >>>>>>>>>>>> In the > >>>>>>>>>>>> week between > >>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free > >>>>>>>>>>>> to a > >>>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>>> home." > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't > >>>>>>>>>>>>> too > >>>>>>>>>>>>> long > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but > >>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>>> remembering > >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 07:49:50 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:49:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <7BAE6CC3F91F4F129BD37EA27DCC4BA2@JeffVAIO> Two stand out in particular to me: It's Your Lucky Day! - except I keep wanting to say: It's Your Lucky Day, Day! Curbside Shopping Day! Bringing in Pacific might be a really good idea. I always thought Pacific's Community Service Day does such a good job of promoting the community-school partnership. And it seems that the students might be some of the best customers for Curb Shopping. -marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Bratland" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Come and Get It Day > Score in the Grove Day > Cart it Off Day > It's Your Lucky Day! > Curbside Exchange Day > Curbside Giveaway Day > > PU Day is too funny, Steve. > > Do you think we can really make this happen? > > Deb Bratland > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele > wrote: > >> "Finders, Keepers Day." >> >> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. >> >> >> Geri >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >> > Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >> > or, Debris Day... >> > Musical Discards Day... >> > Scavenger Hunt Day... >> > Loot Like a Pirate Day... >> > Curbside Shopping Day... >> > Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater >> > skit?) >> > >> > Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >> > >> > C'mon, people, more suggestions... >> > WW >> > On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> > >> >> What about some kind of fun name..... >> >> Gold digging day! >> >> Quest day! >> >> Save the landfill day... >> >> >> >> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative >> >> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >> >> Suggestions? >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >> >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >> >> >>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >> >>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an >> >>> expensive and useless burden. >> >>> WW >> >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >> >>>> >> >>>> Geri >> >>>> >> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >> >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>>> >> >>>>> Right, Marian! >> >>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >> >>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >> >>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >> >>>>> material," >> >>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >> >>>>> it's >> >>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >> >>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >> >>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >> >>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >> >>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >> >>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >> >>>>> kept >> >>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >> >>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >> >>>>> WW >> >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >> >>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >> >>>>>> if it's >> >>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >> >>>>>> one or >> >>>>>> two days >> >>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >> >>>>>> attract more >> >>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >> >>>>>> junk >> >>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Marian >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >> >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >> >>>>>>> catching >> >>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >> >>>>>>> free >> >>>>>>> garbage >> >>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >> >>>>>>> said, you >> >>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >> >>>>>>> on. And >> >>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >> >>>>>>> think it'd >> >>>>>>> be >> >>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >> >>>>>>> interesting >> >>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >> >>>>>>> and the >> >>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >> >>>>>>> participate. >> >>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >> >>>>>>> needy >> >>>>>>> among us. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> jim >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >> >>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >> >>>>>>>> on it, >> >>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >> >>>>>>>> trying >> >>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >> >>>>>>>> WW >> >>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >> >>>>>>>>> turn, >> >>>>>>>>> released >> >>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >> >>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >> >>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >> >>>>>>>>> OK? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Barb >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >> >>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >> >>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >> >>>>>>>>>> the new >> >>>>>>>>>> trash >> >>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >> >>>>>>>>>> didn't know >> >>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >> >>>>>>>>>> lot of >> >>>>>>>>>> input from >> >>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >> >>>>>>>>>> city >> >>>>>>>>>> wide >> >>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >> >>>>>>>>>> city, >> >>>>>>>>>> and an >> >>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >> >>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>> garage >> >>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >> >>>>>>>>>> week between >> >>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >> >>>>>>>>>> good >> >>>>>>>>>> home." >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> David >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >> >>>>>>>>>>> Management's >> >>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >> >>>>>>>>>>> long >> >>>>>>>>>>> after WM >> >>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >> >>>>>>>>>>> not >> >>>>>>>>>> remembering >> >>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> GroveNet mailing list >> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 07:51:33 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:51:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> Message-ID: I am still partial to - Give-a-way Day as it describes the process. I googled the name and found a Canadian city that uses that term for the exact same process as we have been discussing. September is the perfect time for getting all that good stuff to the curb. Barb On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > "It's Your Lucky Day" is fun. > One suggestion, maybe we could have this "Hauliday" at a time when > everyone is likely to be back in town, but not yet too busy with > school preparations... say, late August or early September, when the > weather is still likely to be nice? Or should we have it in > midsummer? Any ideas? > > On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Come and Get It Day > > Score in the Grove Day > > Cart it Off Day > > It's Your Lucky Day! > > Curbside Exchange Day > > Curbside Giveaway Day > > > > PU Day is too funny, Steve. > > > > Do you think we can really make this happen? > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele > steele at comcast.net>wrote: > > > >> "Finders, Keepers Day." > >> > >> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > >> > >> > >> Geri > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > >>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > >>> or, Debris Day... > >>> Musical Discards Day... > >>> Scavenger Hunt Day... > >>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > >>> Curbside Shopping Day... > >>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > >>> skit?) > >>> > >>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > >>> > >>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > >>> WW > >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>> > >>>> What about some kind of fun name..... > >>>> Gold digging day! > >>>> Quest day! > >>>> Save the landfill day... > >>>> > >>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other > >>>> creative > >>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >>>> Suggestions? > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>> > >>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White > >>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that > >>>>> is an > >>>>> expensive and useless burden. > >>>>> WW > >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Geri > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Right, Marian! > >>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with > >>>>>>> things > >>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > >>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building > >>>>>>> material," > >>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think > >>>>>>> it's > >>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still > >>>>>>> working TV > >>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > >>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the > >>>>>>> curb. > >>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor > >>>>>>> lamp... > >>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've > >>>>>>> kept > >>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > >>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > >>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, > >>>>>>>> because > >>>>>>>> if it's > >>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to > >>>>>>>> one or > >>>>>>>> two days > >>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would > >>>>>>>> attract more > >>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of > >>>>>>>> junk > >>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marian > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a > >>>>>>>>> habit of > >>>>>>>>> catching > >>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another > >>>>>>>>> "unlimited" > >>>>>>>>> free > >>>>>>>>> garbage > >>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you > >>>>>>>>> said, you > >>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could > >>>>>>>>> catch > >>>>>>>>> on. And > >>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I > >>>>>>>>> think it'd > >>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking > >>>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale > >>>>>>>>> days > >>>>>>>>> and the > >>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire > >>>>>>>>> others to > >>>>>>>>> participate. > >>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of > >>>>>>>>> the more > >>>>>>>>> needy > >>>>>>>>> among us. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> jim > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign > >>>>>>>>>> on it, > >>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone > >>>>>>>>>> trying > >>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >>>>>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in > >>>>>>>>>>> turn, > >>>>>>>>>>> released > >>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. > >>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >>>>>>>>>>> OK? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Barb > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > >>>>>>>>>>>> the new > >>>>>>>>>>>> trash > >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city and > >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a > >>>>>>>>>>>> lot of > >>>>>>>>>>>> input from > >>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could > >>>>>>>>>>>> have a > >>>>>>>>>>>> city > >>>>>>>>>>>> wide > >>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > >>>>>>>>>>>> city, > >>>>>>>>>>>> and an > >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > >>>>>>>>>>>> follow > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> garage > >>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. > >>>>>>>>>>>> In the > >>>>>>>>>>>> week between > >>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free > >>>>>>>>>>>> to a > >>>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>>> home." > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't > >>>>>>>>>>>>> too > >>>>>>>>>>>>> long > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but > >>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>>> remembering > >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 07:54:56 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:54:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <5317856F15034BE1BD36A786D0EF95AF@JeffVAIO> OK - I really like Hauliday! Unfortunately, I don't have the time to help with this effort, along with the fact that we are about two miles out of town and are "curb-less". Not sure anyone would be "Hauliday'ing" out this way.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:30 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > "It's Your Lucky Day" is fun. > One suggestion, maybe we could have this "Hauliday" at a time when > everyone is likely to be back in town, but not yet too busy with > school preparations... say, late August or early September, when the > weather is still likely to be nice? Or should we have it in > midsummer? Any ideas? > > On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> Come and Get It Day >> Score in the Grove Day >> Cart it Off Day >> It's Your Lucky Day! >> Curbside Exchange Day >> Curbside Giveaway Day >> >> PU Day is too funny, Steve. >> >> Do you think we can really make this happen? >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele > steele at comcast.net>wrote: >> >>> "Finders, Keepers Day." >>> >>> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >>>> or, Debris Day... >>>> Musical Discards Day... >>>> Scavenger Hunt Day... >>>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... >>>> Curbside Shopping Day... >>>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater >>>> skit?) >>>> >>>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >>>> >>>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>> >>>>> What about some kind of fun name..... >>>>> Gold digging day! >>>>> Quest day! >>>>> Save the landfill day... >>>>> >>>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other >>>>> creative >>>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >>>>> Suggestions? >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>> >>>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that >>>>>> is an >>>>>> expensive and useless burden. >>>>>> WW >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Geri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>>>>> material," >>>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, >>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still >>>>>>>> working TV >>>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the >>>>>>>> curb. >>>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor >>>>>>>> lamp... >>>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> if it's >>>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>>>>> one or >>>>>>>>> two days >>>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>>>>> attract more >>>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>>>>> junk >>>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a >>>>>>>>>> habit of >>>>>>>>>> catching >>>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another >>>>>>>>>> "unlimited" >>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could >>>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale >>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire >>>>>>>>>> others to >>>>>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of >>>>>>>>>> the more >>>>>>>>>> needy >>>>>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> jim >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city and >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could >>>>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free >>>>>>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 07:57:48 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:57:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <40FFC5AA-F201-4BE7-9CA3-62CA666D0EDF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <2ABA598EB9C942998DA29A601532FB87@GeriPC> I like "Hauliday!" : ) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:30 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > "It's Your Lucky Day" is fun. > One suggestion, maybe we could have this "Hauliday" at a time when > everyone is likely to be back in town, but not yet too busy with > school preparations... say, late August or early September, when the > weather is still likely to be nice? Or should we have it in > midsummer? Any ideas? > > On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> Come and Get It Day >> Score in the Grove Day >> Cart it Off Day >> It's Your Lucky Day! >> Curbside Exchange Day >> Curbside Giveaway Day >> >> PU Day is too funny, Steve. >> >> Do you think we can really make this happen? >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Geri Steele > steele at comcast.net>wrote: >> >>> "Finders, Keepers Day." >>> >>> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. >>> >>> >>> Geri >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >>>> or, Debris Day... >>>> Musical Discards Day... >>>> Scavenger Hunt Day... >>>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... >>>> Curbside Shopping Day... >>>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater >>>> skit?) >>>> >>>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >>>> >>>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>> >>>>> What about some kind of fun name..... >>>>> Gold digging day! >>>>> Quest day! >>>>> Save the landfill day... >>>>> >>>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other >>>>> creative >>>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >>>>> Suggestions? >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>> >>>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that >>>>>> is an >>>>>> expensive and useless burden. >>>>>> WW >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Geri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>>>>> material," >>>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, >>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still >>>>>>>> working TV >>>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the >>>>>>>> curb. >>>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor >>>>>>>> lamp... >>>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> if it's >>>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>>>>> one or >>>>>>>>> two days >>>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>>>>> attract more >>>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>>>>> junk >>>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a >>>>>>>>>> habit of >>>>>>>>>> catching >>>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another >>>>>>>>>> "unlimited" >>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could >>>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale >>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire >>>>>>>>>> others to >>>>>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of >>>>>>>>>> the more >>>>>>>>>> needy >>>>>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> jim >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city and >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could >>>>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free >>>>>>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 08:13:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:13:06 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com><31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C446B7C.000001.03596@DON-B2514E06367> Yard Treasures Gold Nuggets Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash "Finders, Keepers Day." I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > or, Debris Day... > Musical Discards Day... > Scavenger Hunt Day... > Loot Like a Pirate Day... > Curbside Shopping Day... > Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > skit?) > > Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > > C'mon, people, more suggestions... > WW > On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> What about some kind of fun name..... >> Gold digging day! >> Quest day! >> Save the landfill day... >> >> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other creative >> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >> Suggestions? >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Walt Wentz" >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >> >>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that is an >>> expensive and useless burden. >>> WW >>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>> >>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>> >>>> Geri >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>> >>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with things >>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>> material," >>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>> it's >>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, support >>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the curb. >>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor lamp... >>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>> kept >>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>> WW >>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, because >>>>>> if it's >>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>> one or >>>>>> two days >>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>> attract more >>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>> junk >>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>> >>>>>> Marian >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a habit of >>>>>>> catching >>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could catch >>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale days >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the more >>>>>>> needy >>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city and >>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could have a >>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could follow >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. In the >>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe I'm >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100719/5ae4dcae/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 08:55:21 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:55:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <4C446B7C.000001.03596@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com><31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <4C446B7C.000001.03596@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <23403D18-D529-4525-AAF4-4BF89305C74F@teleport.com> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe "Trash and Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with actual trash. On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > Yard Treasures > Gold Nuggets > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Geri Steele > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > "Finders, Keepers Day." > > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >> or, Debris Day... >> Musical Discards Day... >> Scavenger Hunt Day... >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... >> Curbside Shopping Day... >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater >> skit?) >> >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >> >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... >> WW >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >> >>> What about some kind of fun name..... >>> Gold digging day! >>> Quest day! >>> Save the landfill day... >>> >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other >>> creative >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >>> Suggestions? >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>> >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that >>>> is an >>>> expensive and useless burden. >>>> WW >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>> >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... >>>>> >>>>> Geri >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>> >>>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with >>>>>> things >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building >>>>>> material," >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think >>>>>> it's >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, >>>>>> support >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the >>>>>> curb. >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor >>>>>> lamp... >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've >>>>>> kept >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! >>>>>> WW >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> if it's >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to >>>>>>> one or >>>>>>> two days >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would >>>>>>> attract more >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of >>>>>>> junk >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a >>>>>>>> habit of >>>>>>>> catching >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" >>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you >>>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could >>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I >>>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for >>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale >>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to >>>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> needy >>>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jim >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could >>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could >>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. >>>>>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 09:17:58 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 09:17:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <23403D18-D529-4525-AAF4-4BF89305C74F@teleport.com> References: <4F903AAE-D781-40BE-8B01-EDE43781EF5F@teleport.com> <31B287E0-1E5E-4779-A24B-5324A7AD6AD5@teleport.com> <696C6FA2-4F41-4407-A8C7-D08A7FECE4B2@teleport.com> <4C446B7C.000001.03596@DON-B2514E06367> <23403D18-D529-4525-AAF4-4BF89305C74F@teleport.com> Message-ID: Hauliday works for me! On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe "Trash and > Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with > actual trash. > On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > Yard Treasures > > Gold Nuggets > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Geri Steele > > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > > "Finders, Keepers Day." > > > > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > > > > > > Geri > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Walt Wentz" > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > >> or, Debris Day... > >> Musical Discards Day... > >> Scavenger Hunt Day... > >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > >> Curbside Shopping Day... > >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign Theater > >> skit?) > >> > >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > >> > >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > >> WW > >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> > >>> What about some kind of fun name..... > >>> Gold digging day! > >>> Quest day! > >>> Save the landfill day... > >>> > >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some other > >>> creative > >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >>> Suggestions? > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>> > >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free Exchange Day," since "White > >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting something that > >>>> is an > >>>> expensive and useless burden. > >>>> WW > >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" day... > >>>>> > >>>>> Geri > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>> > >>>>>> Right, Marian! > >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," but with > >>>>>> things > >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially useful to someone > >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't take "building > >>>>>> material," > >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If you don't think > >>>>>> it's > >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling outfit, > >>>>>> support > >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but still working TV > >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle (at the local > >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, send it to the > >>>>>> curb. > >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted floor > >>>>>> lamp... > >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave you, that you've > >>>>>> kept > >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't move at your yard > >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free Exchange Day! > >>>>>> WW > >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more than twice a year, > >>>>>>> because > >>>>>>> if it's > >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. By keeping it to > >>>>>>> one or > >>>>>>> two days > >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused on it and it would > >>>>>>> attract more > >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just end up with a lot of > >>>>>>> junk > >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free day.... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Marian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, and great ideas have a > >>>>>>>> habit of > >>>>>>>> catching > >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve another "unlimited" > >>>>>>>> free > >>>>>>>> garbage > >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some community spirit, as you > >>>>>>>> said, you > >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove Free Day Exchange," could > >>>>>>>> catch > >>>>>>>> on. And > >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it every couple of months. I > >>>>>>>> think it'd > >>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol the streets looking for > >>>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other towns have annual garage sale > >>>>>>>> days > >>>>>>>> and the > >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" would be novel indeed. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on it to inspire others to > >>>>>>>> participate. > >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be a God-send to some of the > >>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>> needy > >>>>>>>> among us. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> jim > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out something with a "free" sign > >>>>>>>>> on it, > >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort on Grovenet, with eveyone > >>>>>>>>> trying > >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >>>>>>>>> WW > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" I found some great items and in > >>>>>>>>>> turn, > >>>>>>>>>> released > >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate again. > >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >>>>>>>>>> OK? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Barb > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David Morelli > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day for several years and then, as I > >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as City Manger and she negotiated > >>>>>>>>>>> the new > >>>>>>>>>>> trash > >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash day. She was new to the city > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression that she didn't take a > >>>>>>>>>>> lot of > >>>>>>>>>>> input from > >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought that Forest Grove could > >>>>>>>>>>> have a > >>>>>>>>>>> city > >>>>>>>>>>> wide > >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county wide to get attention for the > >>>>>>>>>>> city, > >>>>>>>>>>> and an > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some income. Then the city could > >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> garage > >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city wide garbage pickup day. > >>>>>>>>>>> In the > >>>>>>>>>>> week between > >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" could be at the curb "free to a > >>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>> home." > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> David > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, but it would have to have Waste > >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls our trash. I think it wasn't too > >>>>>>>>>>>> long > >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old trash day went away ... but maybe > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>> remembering > >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > grovenet________________________ > > _______________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 10:04:48 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Message-ID: <464795170.87269.1279559088334.JavaMail.root@vms170053> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100719/075be2e9/attachment.html From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 10:21:34 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:21:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash Message-ID: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100719/dbe0c3b1/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 11:57:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:57:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> References: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> Message-ID: <53AB56C8-6817-44E8-AD0C-3C061FD4BC45@teleport.com> So far, the most popular titles seem to be "Giveaway Day" and "Hauliday" (which I only threw out there as a silly pun!). Maybe we could combine the two, as in "The Giveaway Hauliday." WW On Jul 19, 2010, at 10:21 AM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > I think 'Hauloween" or "Haulawayn" capture the spirit of events > fondly remembered. > > > Jul 19, 2010 11:18:27 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: > >Hauliday works for me! > > > >On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > > > >> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe > >"Trash and > >> Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with > >> actual trash. > >> On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> > >> > Yard Treasures > >> > Gold Nuggets > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -------Original Message------- > >> > > >> > From: Geri Steele > >> > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > > >> > "Finders, Keepers Day." > >> > > >> > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > >> > > >> > > >> > Geri > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > >> > From: "Walt Wentz" > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > > >> >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > >> >> or, Debris Day... > >> >> Musical Discards Day... > >> >> Scavenger Hunt Day... > >> >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > >> >> Curbside Shopping Day... > >> >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign > Theater > >> >> skit?) > >> >> > >> >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > >> >> > >> >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > >> >> WW > >> >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> What about some kind of fun name..... > >> >>> Gold digging day! > >> >>> Quest day! > >> >>> Save the landfill day... > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some > >other > >> >>> creative > >> >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >> >>> Suggestions? > >> >>> > >> >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>> > >> >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free > >Exchange Day," since "White > >> >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting > >something that > >> >>>> is an > >> >>>> expensive and useless burden. > >> >>>> WW > >> >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" > >day... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Geri > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >> >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Right, Marian! > >> >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," > >but with > >> >>>>>> things > >> >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially > >useful to someone > >> >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't > >take "building > >> >>>>>> material," > >> >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If > >you don't think > >> >>>>>> it's > >> >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling > >outfit, > >> >>>>>> support > >> >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but > >still working TV > >> >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle > >(at the local > >> >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, > >send it to the > >> >>>>>> curb. > >> >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted > >floor > >> >>>>>> lamp... > >> >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave > >you, that you've > >> >>>>>> kept > >> >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't > >move at your yard > >> >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free > >Exchange Day! > >> >>>>>> WW > >> >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >> >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more > >than twice a year, > >> >>>>>>> because > >> >>>>>>> if it's > >> >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. > > By keeping it to > >> >>>>>>> one or > >> >>>>>>> two days > >> >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused > >on it and it would > >> >>>>>>> attract more > >> >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just > >end up with a lot of > >> >>>>>>> junk > >> >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free > >day.... > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Marian > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >> >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, > >and great ideas have a > >> >>>>>>>> habit of > >> >>>>>>>> catching > >> >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve > >another "unlimited" > >> >>>>>>>> free > >> >>>>>>>> garbage > >> >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some > >community spirit, as you > >> >>>>>>>> said, you > >> >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove > >Free Day Exchange," could > >> >>>>>>>> catch > >> >>>>>>>> on. And > >> >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it > >every couple of months. I > >> >>>>>>>> think it'd > >> >>>>>>>> be > >> >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol > >the streets looking for > >> >>>>>>>> interesting > >> >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other > >towns have annual garage sale > >> >>>>>>>> days > >> >>>>>>>> and the > >> >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" > >would be novel indeed. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on > >it to inspire others to > >> >>>>>>>> participate. > >> >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be > >a God-send to some of the > >> >>>>>>>> more > >> >>>>>>>> needy > >> >>>>>>>> among us. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> jim > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt > >Wentz > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out > >something with a "free" sign > >> >>>>>>>>> on it, > >> >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort > >on Grovenet, with eveyone > >> >>>>>>>>> trying > >> >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >> >>>>>>>>> WW > >> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith > >wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" > > I found some great items and in > >> >>>>>>>>>> turn, > >> >>>>>>>>>> released > >> >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >> >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate > >again. > >> >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >> >>>>>>>>>> OK? > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Barb > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 > >PM, David Morelli > >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day > >for several years and then, as I > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as > >City Manger and she negotiated > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the new > >> >>>>>>>>>>> trash > >> >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash > >day. She was new to the city > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and > >> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >> >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression > >that she didn't take a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> lot of > >> >>>>>>>>>>> input from > >> >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought > >that Forest Grove could > >> >>>>>>>>>>> have a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city > >> >>>>>>>>>>> wide > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county > >wide to get attention for the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some > >income. Then the city could > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage > >> >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city > >wide garbage pickup day. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> In the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> week between > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" > >could be at the curb "free to a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> good > >> >>>>>>>>>>> home." > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> David > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 > >AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, > >but it would have to have Waste > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls > >our trash. I think it wasn't too > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> long > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old > >trash day went away ... but maybe > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remembering > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > >> > grovenet________________________ > >> > _______________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >GroveNet mailing list > >GroveNet at rdrop.com > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 11:57:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:57:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> References: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> Message-ID: <657AA02F-D1BA-4600-A390-6EB2FF193CCC@teleport.com> "Hauloween" would work, if it were close to that holiday. On Jul 19, 2010, at 10:21 AM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > I think 'Hauloween" or "Haulawayn" capture the spirit of events > fondly remembered. > > > Jul 19, 2010 11:18:27 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: > >Hauliday works for me! > > > >On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > > > >> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe > >"Trash and > >> Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with > >> actual trash. > >> On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> > >> > Yard Treasures > >> > Gold Nuggets > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -------Original Message------- > >> > > >> > From: Geri Steele > >> > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > > >> > "Finders, Keepers Day." > >> > > >> > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > >> > > >> > > >> > Geri > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > >> > From: "Walt Wentz" > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> > > >> >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > >> >> or, Debris Day... > >> >> Musical Discards Day... > >> >> Scavenger Hunt Day... > >> >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > >> >> Curbside Shopping Day... > >> >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign > Theater > >> >> skit?) > >> >> > >> >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > >> >> > >> >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > >> >> WW > >> >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> What about some kind of fun name..... > >> >>> Gold digging day! > >> >>> Quest day! > >> >>> Save the landfill day... > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some > >other > >> >>> creative > >> >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > >> >>> Suggestions? > >> >>> > >> >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > >> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>> > >> >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free > >Exchange Day," since "White > >> >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting > >something that > >> >>>> is an > >> >>>> expensive and useless burden. > >> >>>> WW > >> >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" > >day... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Geri > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > >> >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Right, Marian! > >> >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," > >but with > >> >>>>>> things > >> >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially > >useful to someone > >> >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't > >take "building > >> >>>>>> material," > >> >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If > >you don't think > >> >>>>>> it's > >> >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling > >outfit, > >> >>>>>> support > >> >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but > >still working TV > >> >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle > >(at the local > >> >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, > >send it to the > >> >>>>>> curb. > >> >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted > >floor > >> >>>>>> lamp... > >> >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave > >you, that you've > >> >>>>>> kept > >> >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't > >move at your yard > >> >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free > >Exchange Day! > >> >>>>>> WW > >> >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > >> >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more > >than twice a year, > >> >>>>>>> because > >> >>>>>>> if it's > >> >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. > > By keeping it to > >> >>>>>>> one or > >> >>>>>>> two days > >> >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused > >on it and it would > >> >>>>>>> attract more > >> >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just > >end up with a lot of > >> >>>>>>> junk > >> >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free > >day.... > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Marian > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > >> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > >> >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, > >and great ideas have a > >> >>>>>>>> habit of > >> >>>>>>>> catching > >> >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve > >another "unlimited" > >> >>>>>>>> free > >> >>>>>>>> garbage > >> >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some > >community spirit, as you > >> >>>>>>>> said, you > >> >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove > >Free Day Exchange," could > >> >>>>>>>> catch > >> >>>>>>>> on. And > >> >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it > >every couple of months. I > >> >>>>>>>> think it'd > >> >>>>>>>> be > >> >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol > >the streets looking for > >> >>>>>>>> interesting > >> >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other > >towns have annual garage sale > >> >>>>>>>> days > >> >>>>>>>> and the > >> >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" > >would be novel indeed. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on > >it to inspire others to > >> >>>>>>>> participate. > >> >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be > >a God-send to some of the > >> >>>>>>>> more > >> >>>>>>>> needy > >> >>>>>>>> among us. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> jim > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt > >Wentz > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out > >something with a "free" sign > >> >>>>>>>>> on it, > >> >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort > >on Grovenet, with eveyone > >> >>>>>>>>> trying > >> >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > >> >>>>>>>>> WW > >> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith > >wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" > > I found some great items and in > >> >>>>>>>>>> turn, > >> >>>>>>>>>> released > >> >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > >> >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate > >again. > >> >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > >> >>>>>>>>>> OK? > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Barb > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 > >PM, David Morelli > >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day > >for several years and then, as I > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as > >City Manger and she negotiated > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the new > >> >>>>>>>>>>> trash > >> >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash > >day. She was new to the city > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and > >> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > >> >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression > >that she didn't take a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> lot of > >> >>>>>>>>>>> input from > >> >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought > >that Forest Grove could > >> >>>>>>>>>>> have a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city > >> >>>>>>>>>>> wide > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county > >wide to get attention for the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some > >income. Then the city could > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage > >> >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city > >wide garbage pickup day. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> In the > >> >>>>>>>>>>> week between > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" > >could be at the curb "free to a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> good > >> >>>>>>>>>>> home." > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> David > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 > >AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, > >but it would have to have Waste > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls > >our trash. I think it wasn't too > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> long > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old > >trash day went away ... but maybe > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remembering > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> GroveNet mailing list > >> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > >> > grovenet________________________ > >> > _______________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >GroveNet mailing list > >GroveNet at rdrop.com > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 12:20:22 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:20:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: <53AB56C8-6817-44E8-AD0C-3C061FD4BC45@teleport.com> References: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> <53AB56C8-6817-44E8-AD0C-3C061FD4BC45@teleport.com> Message-ID: I like the combination "Giveaway Hauliday", but since "Hauliday" is a term that may be somewhat confusing to many, it might not be beneficial to use it. Now "Giveaway - Haulaway" is catchy and is pretty clear on what it's all about. I still like the simply stated, "Giveaway Day" however. jimz On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > So far, the most popular titles seem to be "Giveaway Day" and > "Hauliday" (which I only threw out there as a silly pun!). Maybe we > could combine the two, as in "The Giveaway Hauliday." > WW > On Jul 19, 2010, at 10:21 AM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > > > I think 'Hauloween" or "Haulawayn" capture the spirit of events > > fondly remembered. > > > > > > Jul 19, 2010 11:18:27 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: > > >Hauliday works for me! > > > > > >On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz > > wrote: > > > > > >> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe > > >"Trash and > > >> Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with > > >> actual trash. > > >> On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > > >> > > >> > Yard Treasures > > >> > Gold Nuggets > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -------Original Message------- > > >> > > > >> > From: Geri Steele > > >> > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > > >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> > > > >> > "Finders, Keepers Day." > > >> > > > >> > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Geri > > >> > > > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > > >> > From: "Walt Wentz" > > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > > >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> > > > >> >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > > >> >> or, Debris Day... > > >> >> Musical Discards Day... > > >> >> Scavenger Hunt Day... > > >> >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > > >> >> Curbside Shopping Day... > > >> >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign > > Theater > > >> >> skit?) > > >> >> > > >> >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > > >> >> > > >> >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > > >> >> WW > > >> >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> What about some kind of fun name..... > > >> >>> Gold digging day! > > >> >>> Quest day! > > >> >>> Save the landfill day... > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some > > >other > > >> >>> creative > > >> >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > > >> >>> Suggestions? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>> From: "Walt Wentz" > > >> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > > >> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free > > >Exchange Day," since "White > > >> >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting > > >something that > > >> >>>> is an > > >> >>>> expensive and useless burden. > > >> >>>> WW > > >> >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" > > >day... > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Geri > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > > >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > > >> >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > > > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Right, Marian! > > >> >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," > > >but with > > >> >>>>>> things > > >> >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially > > >useful to someone > > >> >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't > > >take "building > > >> >>>>>> material," > > >> >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If > > >you don't think > > >> >>>>>> it's > > >> >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling > > >outfit, > > >> >>>>>> support > > >> >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but > > >still working TV > > >> >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle > > >(at the local > > >> >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, > > >send it to the > > >> >>>>>> curb. > > >> >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted > > >floor > > >> >>>>>> lamp... > > >> >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave > > >you, that you've > > >> >>>>>> kept > > >> >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't > > >move at your yard > > >> >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free > > >Exchange Day! > > >> >>>>>> WW > > >> >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > > >> >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more > > >than twice a year, > > >> >>>>>>> because > > >> >>>>>>> if it's > > >> >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. > > > By keeping it to > > >> >>>>>>> one or > > >> >>>>>>> two days > > >> >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused > > >on it and it would > > >> >>>>>>> attract more > > >> >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just > > >end up with a lot of > > >> >>>>>>> junk > > >> >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free > > >day.... > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Marian > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > > >> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > > >> >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, > > >and great ideas have a > > >> >>>>>>>> habit of > > >> >>>>>>>> catching > > >> >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve > > >another "unlimited" > > >> >>>>>>>> free > > >> >>>>>>>> garbage > > >> >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some > > >community spirit, as you > > >> >>>>>>>> said, you > > >> >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove > > >Free Day Exchange," could > > >> >>>>>>>> catch > > >> >>>>>>>> on. And > > >> >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it > > >every couple of months. I > > >> >>>>>>>> think it'd > > >> >>>>>>>> be > > >> >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol > > >the streets looking for > > >> >>>>>>>> interesting > > >> >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other > > >towns have annual garage sale > > >> >>>>>>>> days > > >> >>>>>>>> and the > > >> >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" > > >would be novel indeed. > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on > > >it to inspire others to > > >> >>>>>>>> participate. > > >> >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be > > >a God-send to some of the > > >> >>>>>>>> more > > >> >>>>>>>> needy > > >> >>>>>>>> among us. > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> jim > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt > > >Wentz > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out > > >something with a "free" sign > > >> >>>>>>>>> on it, > > >> >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort > > >on Grovenet, with eveyone > > >> >>>>>>>>> trying > > >> >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > > >> >>>>>>>>> WW > > >> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith > > >wrote: > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" > > > I found some great items and in > > >> >>>>>>>>>> turn, > > >> >>>>>>>>>> released > > >> >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > > >> >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate > > >again. > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > > >> >>>>>>>>>> OK? > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Barb > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 > > >PM, David Morelli > > >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day > > >for several years and then, as I > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as > > >City Manger and she negotiated > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the new > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> trash > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash > > >day. She was new to the city > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression > > >that she didn't take a > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> lot of > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> input from > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought > > >that Forest Grove could > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> have a > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> wide > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county > > >wide to get attention for the > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city, > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and an > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some > > >income. Then the city could > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city > > >wide garbage pickup day. > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> In the > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> week between > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" > > >could be at the curb "free to a > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> good > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> home." > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> David > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 > > >AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, > > >but it would have to have Waste > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls > > >our trash. I think it wasn't too > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> long > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old > > >trash day went away ... but maybe > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remembering > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > >> > grovenet________________________ > > >> > _______________________ > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >_______________________________________________ > > >GroveNet mailing list > > >GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 15:42:28 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:42:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> <53AB56C8-6817-44E8-AD0C-3C061FD4BC45@teleport.com> Message-ID: I have put together a small survey - regarding the name of the day and when we might want it to happen - on googledocs. I will be sending an email to grovenet from which, hopefully, people can access the survey. The answers that everyone gives will populate a spreadsheet. Here is the link to the spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhacT8KLgaPcdEJCWlo4eFpROUctclV0amlJRG52QlE&hl=en&authkey=CO-oub8K I'm new to googledocs, so please go easy on me if this doesn't work. But I thought it was worth a try. Then, whoever decides to run with it can use the spreadsheet information and do with it as they wish - use it or not. Deb Bratland On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > I like the combination "Giveaway Hauliday", but since "Hauliday" is a term > that may be somewhat confusing to many, it might not be beneficial to use > it. Now "Giveaway - Haulaway" is catchy and is pretty clear on what it's > all > about. I still like the simply stated, > "Giveaway Day" however. > > jimz > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > So far, the most popular titles seem to be "Giveaway Day" and > > "Hauliday" (which I only threw out there as a silly pun!). Maybe we > > could combine the two, as in "The Giveaway Hauliday." > > WW > > On Jul 19, 2010, at 10:21 AM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: > > > > > I think 'Hauloween" or "Haulawayn" capture the spirit of events > > > fondly remembered. > > > > > > > > > Jul 19, 2010 11:18:27 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: > > > >Hauliday works for me! > > > > > > > >On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe > > > >"Trash and > > > >> Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with > > > >> actual trash. > > > >> On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Yard Treasures > > > >> > Gold Nuggets > > > >> > > > > >> > Don > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -------Original Message------- > > > >> > > > > >> > From: Geri Steele > > > >> > Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 > > > >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> > > > > >> > "Finders, Keepers Day." > > > >> > > > > >> > I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Geri > > > >> > > > > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > From: "Walt Wentz" > > > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM > > > >> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> > > > > >> >> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... > > > >> >> or, Debris Day... > > > >> >> Musical Discards Day... > > > >> >> Scavenger Hunt Day... > > > >> >> Loot Like a Pirate Day... > > > >> >> Curbside Shopping Day... > > > >> >> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign > > > Theater > > > >> >> skit?) > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... > > > >> >> > > > >> >> C'mon, people, more suggestions... > > > >> >> WW > > > >> >> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> What about some kind of fun name..... > > > >> >>> Gold digging day! > > > >> >>> Quest day! > > > >> >>> Save the landfill day... > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some > > > >other > > > >> >>> creative > > > >> >>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... > > > >> >>> Suggestions? > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> -------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>> From: "Walt Wentz" > > > >> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM > > > >> >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free > > > >Exchange Day," since "White > > > >> >>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting > > > >something that > > > >> >>>> is an > > > >> >>>> expensive and useless burden. > > > >> >>>> WW > > > >> >>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" > > > >day... > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> Geri > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" > > > >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM > > > >> >>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>>> Right, Marian! > > > >> >>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," > > > >but with > > > >> >>>>>> things > > > >> >>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially > > > >useful to someone > > > >> >>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't > > > >take "building > > > >> >>>>>> material," > > > >> >>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If > > > >you don't think > > > >> >>>>>> it's > > > >> >>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling > > > >outfit, > > > >> >>>>>> support > > > >> >>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but > > > >still working TV > > > >> >>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle > > > >(at the local > > > >> >>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, > > > >send it to the > > > >> >>>>>> curb. > > > >> >>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted > > > >floor > > > >> >>>>>> lamp... > > > >> >>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave > > > >you, that you've > > > >> >>>>>> kept > > > >> >>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't > > > >move at your yard > > > >> >>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free > > > >Exchange Day! > > > >> >>>>>> WW > > > >> >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > > > >> >>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: > > > >> >>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more > > > >than twice a year, > > > >> >>>>>>> because > > > >> >>>>>>> if it's > > > >> >>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. > > > > By keeping it to > > > >> >>>>>>> one or > > > >> >>>>>>> two days > > > >> >>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused > > > >on it and it would > > > >> >>>>>>> attract more > > > >> >>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just > > > >end up with a lot of > > > >> >>>>>>> junk > > > >> >>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free > > > >day.... > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>> Marian > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" > > > >> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM > > > >> >>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, > > > >and great ideas have a > > > >> >>>>>>>> habit of > > > >> >>>>>>>> catching > > > >> >>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve > > > >another "unlimited" > > > >> >>>>>>>> free > > > >> >>>>>>>> garbage > > > >> >>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some > > > >community spirit, as you > > > >> >>>>>>>> said, you > > > >> >>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove > > > >Free Day Exchange," could > > > >> >>>>>>>> catch > > > >> >>>>>>>> on. And > > > >> >>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it > > > >every couple of months. I > > > >> >>>>>>>> think it'd > > > >> >>>>>>>> be > > > >> >>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol > > > >the streets looking for > > > >> >>>>>>>> interesting > > > >> >>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other > > > >towns have annual garage sale > > > >> >>>>>>>> days > > > >> >>>>>>>> and the > > > >> >>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" > > > >would be novel indeed. > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on > > > >it to inspire others to > > > >> >>>>>>>> participate. > > > >> >>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be > > > >a God-send to some of the > > > >> >>>>>>>> more > > > >> >>>>>>>> needy > > > >> >>>>>>>> among us. > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> jim > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt > > > >Wentz > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out > > > >something with a "free" sign > > > >> >>>>>>>>> on it, > > > >> >>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort > > > >on Grovenet, with eveyone > > > >> >>>>>>>>> trying > > > >> >>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? > > > >> >>>>>>>>> WW > > > >> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith > > > >wrote: > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" > > > > I found some great items and in > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> turn, > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> released > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate > > > >again. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> OK? > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Barb > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 > > > >PM, David Morelli > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day > > > >for several years and then, as I > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as > > > >City Manger and she negotiated > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the new > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> trash > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash > > > >day. She was new to the city > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression > > > >that she didn't take a > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> lot of > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> input from > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought > > > >that Forest Grove could > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> have a > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> wide > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county > > > >wide to get attention for the > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> city, > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and an > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some > > > >income. Then the city could > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> garage > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city > > > >wide garbage pickup day. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> In the > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> week between > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" > > > >could be at the curb "free to a > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> good > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> home." > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> David > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 > > > >AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, > > > >but it would have to have Waste > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Management's > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls > > > >our trash. I think it wasn't too > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> long > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> after WM > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old > > > >trash day went away ... but maybe > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> remembering > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>> > > > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >>> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> >> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > > >> > grovenet________________________ > > > >> > _______________________ > > > >> > GroveNet mailing list > > > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >GroveNet mailing list > > > >GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 15:46:33 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (debbratland at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:46:33 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove Giveaway Day Name Message-ID: <001485f91db41f64ff048bc55768@google.com> If you have trouble viewing or submitting this form, you can fill it out online: https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEJCWlo4eFpROUctclV0amlJRG52QlE6MQ Forest Grove Giveaway Day Name Help us figure out what to call our potential curbside get-rid-of-good-stuff day in Forest Grove, and help us figure out what month might work best. Choose 3 of your favorite names below. Giveaway Day Haulaway Day PU Day Free Exchange Day Gold Digging Day Quest Day Save the Landfill Day Grove Gold Great Forest Grove Treasure Hung Debris Day Musical Discards Day Scavenger Hunt Day Loot Like a Pirate Day Curbside Shopping Day Curbside Giveaway Day Catch it and You Keep it Day Finders Keepers Day Come and Get It Day It's Your Lucky Day Curbside Exchange Day Hauliday Yard Treasures Day Gold Nuggets Day Curbside Gold Day One Foot in the Grove Day Dig Yer Own Grove Day Haulawayn Day Hauloween The Giveaway Hauliday Giveaway-Haulaway Day Option 18 Other: In what month do you think this event would work best? January February March April May June July August September October November December Do you think there should be a city-wide garage sale the week before the giveaway day? Yes No Other: Sign up below if you're interested in heading this up, or working on a committee to get this going. Powered by Google Docs Report Abuse - Terms of Service - Additional Terms From waltw at teleport.com Mon Jul 19 15:48:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:48:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash In-Reply-To: References: <890691612.87357.1279560094730.JavaMail.root@vms170053> <53AB56C8-6817-44E8-AD0C-3C061FD4BC45@teleport.com> Message-ID: <79EB0BB3-941D-42C0-8A91-2DFFBEBDD450@teleport.com> I think "Giveaway Day" is most simple and clear of all the suggestions. WW On Jul 19, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > I like the combination "Giveaway Hauliday", but since "Hauliday" is > a term > that may be somewhat confusing to many, it might not be beneficial > to use > it. Now "Giveaway - Haulaway" is catchy and is pretty clear on what > it's all > about. I still like the simply stated, > "Giveaway Day" however. > > jimz > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> So far, the most popular titles seem to be "Giveaway Day" and >> "Hauliday" (which I only threw out there as a silly pun!). Maybe we >> could combine the two, as in "The Giveaway Hauliday." >> WW >> On Jul 19, 2010, at 10:21 AM, obrzl at verizon.net wrote: >> >>> I think 'Hauloween" or "Haulawayn" capture the spirit of events >>> fondly remembered. >>> >>> >>> Jul 19, 2010 11:18:27 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: >>>> Hauliday works for me! >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Yard Treasures" or "Curbside Gold" sound good. Maybe >>>> "Trash and >>>>> Treasures," even though it would be bad to associate the day with >>>>> actual trash. >>>>> On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:13 AM, donkelly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yard Treasures >>>>>> Gold Nuggets >>>>>> >>>>>> Don >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------Original Message------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Geri Steele >>>>>> Date: 07/18/10 23:27:53 >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>> >>>>>> "Finders, Keepers Day." >>>>>> >>>>>> I like the "Curbside Shopping" one, Walt. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Geri >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:37 PM >>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe The Great Forest Grove Treasure Hunt... >>>>>>> or, Debris Day... >>>>>>> Musical Discards Day... >>>>>>> Scavenger Hunt Day... >>>>>>> Loot Like a Pirate Day... >>>>>>> Curbside Shopping Day... >>>>>>> Catch It and You Keep It Day (Anyone remember that Firesign >>> Theater >>>>>>> skit?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, "Giveaway Day" still looks good to me... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> C'mon, people, more suggestions... >>>>>>> WW >>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about some kind of fun name..... >>>>>>>> Gold digging day! >>>>>>>> Quest day! >>>>>>>> Save the landfill day... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes - I know these are kind of lame, but I'm sure some >>>> other >>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>> grovenetters can come up with something fun.... >>>>>>>> Suggestions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:15 PM >>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd vote for ""Giveaway Day" or "Free >>>> Exchange Day," since "White >>>>>>>>> Elephant" has negative connotations-- suggesting >>>> something that >>>>>>>>> is an >>>>>>>>> expensive and useless burden. >>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Geri Steele wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "White Elephant" day? Instead of "trash" >>>> day... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Geri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Walt Wentz" >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:26 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Right, Marian! >>>>>>>>>>> And this day should NOT be associated with "trash," >>>> but with >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>> that are unwanted by the owner but potentially >>>> useful to someone >>>>>>>>>>> else. Scrap lumber, for instance. WM won't >>>> take "building >>>>>>>>>>> material," >>>>>>>>>>> but someone else might need it for firewood. If >>>> you don't think >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>> big enough to haul it to ReStore (a great recycling >>>> outfit, >>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>> them!), it could go out to the curb. The old but >>>> still working TV >>>>>>>>>>> set... if you don't want to send it to E-Cycle >>>> (at the local >>>>>>>>>>> Goodwill) because it will be dismantled there, >>>> send it to the >>>>>>>>>>> curb. >>>>>>>>>>> The extra fan stored in the basement... that unwanted >>>> floor >>>>>>>>>>> lamp... >>>>>>>>>>> that hideous cracked vase your great-aunt gave >>>> you, that you've >>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>> hidden in the closet... The stuff that didn't >>>> move at your yard >>>>>>>>>>> sale... send 'em all to the curb for Free >>>> Exchange Day! >>>>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my two cents worth: >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be concerned about doing this more >>>> than twice a year, >>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>> if it's >>>>>>>>>>>> done more often, it may dilute the effect. >>>> By keeping it to >>>>>>>>>>>> one or >>>>>>>>>>>> two days >>>>>>>>>>>> (spring and fall), everyone can stay focused >>>> on it and it would >>>>>>>>>>>> attract more >>>>>>>>>>>> attention. Anything more and we may just >>>> end up with a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>> junk >>>>>>>>>>>> littering the curb waiting for the next free >>>> day.... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Marian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jim Zaleski" >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:17 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Haulin' Trash >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea Walt, >>>> and great ideas have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> habit of >>>>>>>>>>>>> catching >>>>>>>>>>>>> on. No need to wait for the City to approve >>>> another "unlimited" >>>>>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>>>>> garbage >>>>>>>>>>>>> day, nor wait for WM to get back some >>>> community spirit, as you >>>>>>>>>>>>> said, you >>>>>>>>>>>>> could just do it. A "Forest Grove >>>> Free Day Exchange," could >>>>>>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>>>>>> on. And >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't do it just once a year, do it >>>> every couple of months. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> think it'd >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> a blast to once again be able to patrol >>>> the streets looking for >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>> and useful "giveaways". Other >>>> towns have annual garage sale >>>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> like, but a "FreeDayExchange" >>>> would be novel indeed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the FGNT could do an article on >>>> it to inspire others to >>>>>>>>>>>>> participate. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In tough times like these, it'd be >>>> a God-send to some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>> needy >>>>>>>>>>>>> among us. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jim >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Walt >>>> Wentz >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to just put out >>>> something with a "free" sign >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but should we do a concerted effort >>>> on Grovenet, with eveyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do it on a given day? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:58 AM, b Smith >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I loved "Free Garbage Day!" >>>> I found some great items and in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> released >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some great items to the wild. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be thrilled to participate >>>> again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's just do that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:28 >>>> PM, David Morelli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We had the full trash day >>>> for several years and then, as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember it, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> city hired Vergie Ries as >>>> City Manger and she negotiated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement without the trash >>>> day. She was new to the city >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our history. I had the impression >>>> that she didn't take a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her staff to learn our history. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a pity too. I thought >>>> that Forest Grove could >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> city >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garage sale advertised county >>>> wide to get attention for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> city, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to have some >>>> income. Then the city could >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sale a week later with a city >>>> wide garbage pickup day. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> week between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the two events, the "excess" >>>> could be at the curb "free to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 11:13 >>>> AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The city could do that, >>>> but it would have to have Waste >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Management's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement, since WM hauls >>>> our trash. I think it wasn't too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after WM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> took over that the old >>>> trash day went away ... but maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remembering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb Bratland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> grovenet________________________ >>>>>> _______________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 18:41:20 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:41:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove Giveaway Day Name In-Reply-To: <001485f91db41f64ff048bc55768@google.com> References: <001485f91db41f64ff048bc55768@google.com> Message-ID: Deb, thank you for doing this ~ Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 3:46 PM To: Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove Giveaway Day Name > If you have trouble viewing or submitting this form, you can fill it out > online: > https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEJCWlo4eFpROUctclV0amlJRG52QlE6MQ > > > Forest Grove Giveaway Day Name > > > Help us figure out what to call our potential curbside > get-rid-of-good-stuff day in Forest Grove, and help us figure out what > month might work best. > > > Choose 3 of your favorite names below. > > Giveaway Day > Haulaway Day > PU Day > Free Exchange Day > Gold Digging Day > Quest Day > Save the Landfill Day > Grove Gold > Great Forest Grove Treasure Hung > Debris Day > Musical Discards Day > Scavenger Hunt Day > Loot Like a Pirate Day > Curbside Shopping Day > Curbside Giveaway Day > Catch it and You Keep it Day > Finders Keepers Day > Come and Get It Day > It's Your Lucky Day > Curbside Exchange Day > Hauliday > Yard Treasures Day > Gold Nuggets Day > Curbside Gold Day > One Foot in the Grove Day > Dig Yer Own Grove Day > Haulawayn Day > Hauloween > The Giveaway Hauliday > Giveaway-Haulaway Day > Option 18 > Other: > > > In what month do you think this event would work best? > > January > February > March > April > May > June > July > August > September > October > November > December > > > Do you think there should be a city-wide garage sale the week before the > giveaway day? > > Yes > No > Other: > > > Sign up below if you're interested in heading this up, or working on a > committee to get this going. > > > > Powered by Google Docs Report Abuse - Terms of Service - Additional Terms > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 23:42:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:42:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids Message-ID: Some time back we had a short discussion of the future of transportation in Forest Grove. I had some suggestions and wanted to share the visuals, but I don't want to clog the list with bulky jpeg files. So, I placed them on the Google site. http://sites.google.com/site/theoutofplacefg/ I would hope that some of the Grove are interested in these suggestions. Any feedback that it would promote the formation of better ideas is requested. While I know what they represent, I realize that others may not, so questions are welcome. . David Morelli From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 07:04:02 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Debt Clock In-Reply-To: <4C3B7B15.000042.01644@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C3B7B15.000042.01644@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C45ACD2.5060803@gmail.com> Just getting caught up on my email and still a week behind, but wanted to thank Don for posting this. Eerily hypnotic, can't turn away from it. It's fascinating but very frightening at the same time. Adam donkelly wrote: > http://www.usdebtclock.org/ > > > > Someone spent a lot of time setting this up. > > > > Amazing, yet sobering. > > > > Don > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 08:11:39 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:11:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BFC151FC79B4D128D8A9A73DC51E406@JeffVAIO> Wow! You put a lot of work into this David. I'm so glad someone is looking to the future and planning - it makes me crazy when there aren't any plans and then actions are taken which make future progress much more difficult. I like the safety factor of one-way streets and it probably makes a lot of sense to move more traffic thru. But, I often wonder how it impacts local businesses which rely on a "drive-by" population, rather than someone heading to a specific destination. It would seem to affect the big boxes, because of their vast size, but what happens to the smaller businesses when their street is changed from a two-way to a one-way? Looking at the pictures with the multiple lanes of traffic, makes me think of the evolution of Beaverton between 1987 (when I arrived) and now. In 1987 it was a population of ~30,000 (a bit larger than FG is now), 185th was a two way street and the downtown Beaverton area had more two way streets and lots more trees and greenery. Now when you drive thru it feels like yet another megalopolis with many more one-way streets, more big box stores, a lot more paving and a lot fewer trees and landscaping. Sure, there are some nice parks, but the noise, traffic and acres of hot asphalt are not exactly conducive to an idyllic life. Is there anything we can do in Forest Grove to avoid the same feeling you get when you go to Beaverton? I wish we could think "out of the box" a bit more and come up with something unique to manage the traffic and still provide a lifestyle for the FG community, which they will enjoy. Any ideas? Europe has many cities which are pretty tightly packed, and yet (as I remember), they don't feel like a megalopolis. We will be going to Switzerland in a few weeks, and I'll be sure to make note of some of the techniques used. Of course I realize they are not as dependent on their vehicles as we are, but they do seem to move transportation thru. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:42 PM To: "grovenet" Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids > Some time back we had a short discussion of the future of transportation > in Forest Grove. > > I had some suggestions and wanted to share the visuals, but I don't want > to clog the list with bulky jpeg files. So, I placed them on the Google > site. > > http://sites.google.com/site/theoutofplacefg/ > > I would hope that some of the Grove are interested in these suggestions. > Any feedback that it would promote the formation of better ideas is > requested. > > While I know what they represent, I realize that others may not, so > questions are welcome. . > > David Morelli > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 08:22:52 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:22:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: <7BFC151FC79B4D128D8A9A73DC51E406@JeffVAIO> References: <7BFC151FC79B4D128D8A9A73DC51E406@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4EC36CE5BAC145BA97D1599293C27FC2@JeffVAIO> I meant to say: It would seem to affect the big boxes [less], because of their vast size, but what happens to the smaller businesses when their street is changed from a two-way to a one-way? -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:11 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids > Wow! You put a lot of work into this David. I'm so glad someone is > looking > to the future and planning - it makes me crazy when there aren't any plans > and then actions are taken which make future progress much more difficult. > > I like the safety factor of one-way streets and it probably makes a lot of > sense to move more traffic thru. But, I often wonder how it impacts local > businesses which rely on a "drive-by" population, rather than someone > heading to a specific destination. It would seem to affect the big boxes, > because of their vast size, but what happens to the smaller businesses > when > their street is changed from a two-way to a one-way? > > Looking at the pictures with the multiple lanes of traffic, makes me think > of the evolution of Beaverton between 1987 (when I arrived) and now. In > 1987 it was a population of ~30,000 (a bit larger than FG is now), 185th > was > a two way street and the downtown Beaverton area had more two way streets > and lots more trees and greenery. Now when you drive thru it feels like > yet > another megalopolis with many more one-way streets, more big box stores, a > lot more paving and a lot fewer trees and landscaping. Sure, there are > some > nice parks, but the noise, traffic and acres of hot asphalt are not > exactly > conducive to an idyllic life. Is there anything we can do in Forest Grove > to avoid the same feeling you get when you go to Beaverton? I wish we > could > think "out of the box" a bit more and come up with something unique to > manage the traffic and still provide a lifestyle for the FG community, > which > they will enjoy. Any ideas? > > Europe has many cities which are pretty tightly packed, and yet (as I > remember), they don't feel like a megalopolis. We will be going to > Switzerland in a few weeks, and I'll be sure to make note of some of the > techniques used. Of course I realize they are not as dependent on their > vehicles as we are, but they do seem to move transportation thru. > > Marian > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:42 PM > To: "grovenet" > Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids > >> Some time back we had a short discussion of the future of transportation >> in Forest Grove. >> >> I had some suggestions and wanted to share the visuals, but I don't want >> to clog the list with bulky jpeg files. So, I placed them on the Google >> site. >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/theoutofplacefg/ >> >> I would hope that some of the Grove are interested in these suggestions. >> Any feedback that it would promote the formation of better ideas is >> requested. >> >> While I know what they represent, I realize that others may not, so >> questions are welcome. . >> >> David Morelli >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 09:20:59 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:20:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA12DC8-1C4E-4C6F-AC90-69449D3BD820@verizon.net> On the Pacific - Quince interchange: The westbound on Pacific to northbound on Quince looks great, but where did the Northbound on 47 to eastbound on Pacific turn wind up? (And the east bound on Pacific to southbound on 47?) I notice the Haggen (or whatever) is built so this is likely a future map but I thought at least the North on 47 to east on Pacific turn would stay... Katie On Jul 19, 2010, at 11:42 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Some time back we had a short discussion of the future of > transportation in Forest Grove. > > I had some suggestions and wanted to share the visuals, but I don't > want to clog the list with bulky jpeg files. So, I placed them on > the Google site. > > http://sites.google.com/site/theoutofplacefg/ > > I would hope that some of the Grove are interested in these > suggestions. Any feedback that it would promote the formation of > better ideas is requested. > > While I know what they represent, I realize that others may not, so > questions are welcome. . > > David Morelli > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 11:00:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:00:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Debt Clock References: <4C3B7B15.000042.01644@DON-B2514E06367> <4C45ACD2.5060803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C45E433.000007.00116@DON-B2514E06367> I thought so too Adam. I keep it on my desktop as a handy reminder of where everyone, especially the family member(s) who write the checks to pay their taxes, are going. Sobering, and at he same instant Scary. I hope we can see some good news which will display as a gradual decrement of the numbers of dollars displayed in the boxes. Have a great day all, and thanks David for writing up what appears to be a great plan of action in re giving away stuff we don't need. Looks great. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 7/20/2010 7:04:37 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Debt Clock Just getting caught up on my email and still a week behind, but wanted to thank Don for posting this. Eerily hypnotic, can't turn away from it. It's fascinating but very frightening at the same time. Adam donkelly wrote: > http://www.usdebtclock.org/ > > > > Someone spent a lot of time setting this up. > > > > Amazing, yet sobering. > > > > Don > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100720/fbdb5edb/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Jul 20 11:09:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:09:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Research shocker: genetically engineered viruses seek out, kill cancer Message-ID: <00a001cb2836$a56696a0$f033c3e0$@com> Research shocker: genetically engineered viruses seek out, kill cancer http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/20/research-shocker-genetically-engineered-v iruses-seek-out-kill/ July 20, 2010 by Laura June New research at UCLA's Jonsson Comprehensive Center seeks to turn the human body into a genetically engineered cancer-killing machine. The fact that the human body doesn't see cancer as a threat to be destroyed naturally is part of what makes treating it so difficult, so this research uses a harmless, HIV-like virus as the vehicle to carry T-cells (which fight disease) to lymphocytes, and simultaneously carry a reporter gene, which show up in positron emission tomography (PET) scanning, as you can see in the photographs above. So far the researchers have injected the cells into the bloodstreams of melanoma-infected mice, and they began to see evidence of their work within two or three days, and by ten days, it was obvious that in most cases, the cells were indeed fighting the cancer. The process, they admit, could take longer in human beings, and would require about one billion tumor seeking lymphocytes per person treated. They are currently working on creating a vehicle to safely carry the lymphocytes in the human body, and expect the human trial leg of the study to begin within one year. Original Source: PNA http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/07/06/1008300107.abstract?sid=f84ba22 7-1626-4527-85db-896cbfcfc223 From kennybc at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 12:02:48 2010 From: kennybc at verizon.net (Ken Centers) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] MUSIC MAN JUNIOR at Theatre In The Grove Message-ID: <201007201901.o6KJ1Rag035126@mail.ipinc.net> Ken here from Theatre In The Grove. I just wanted to let everyone know that July's CAST PLAYHOUSE Summer Family Theatre Series production is Meredith Willson's THE MUSIC MAN JUNIOR. It opens this Friday and runs for two weeks. It is performed entirely by young actors, and directed by long-time TITG favorite Jeanna Van Dyke. If you saw June's production of THE SADDEST KING, which was written and directed by Mickey Johnson, you know how fun these can be. I've sat in on several rehearsals, and this guarantees to be at great family experience. All tickets are only $3. I hope you all can make it. The Music Man is an American musical classic, following fast-talking traveling salesman Professor Harold Hill and his visit to River City, Iowa where he meets and falls in love with the willful, spinster librarian, Marian Paroo. Songs include: Ya Got Trouble; Goodnight My Someone; Seventy-Six Trombones; Pick-A-Little; Wells Fargo Wagon; Shipoopi; Gary Indiana; Until There Was You; and more! Evening Performance dates are July 23, 24, 28, 30, 31 and August 4 at 7:00 pm. Matinee dates are July 25 and August 1 at 2:30 pm. Tickets are available at the theatre one hour before each performance. Take care, Ken Centers From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 12:28:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:28:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Research shocker: genetically engineered viruses seekout, kill cancer References: <00a001cb2836$a56696a0$f033c3e0$@com> Message-ID: <4C45F8F1.00000C.00116@DON-B2514E06367> Advancements in medicine are always interesting. Even if ten theories are developed and nine fail, the tenth is a success and a boon to mankind. Even Albert Einstein was self admittedly wrong on most ideas that he thought through", yet he is noted for one theory that has never been disproved. In a way it is too bad he was not a doctor instead of a mathematician. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 7/20/2010 11:09:52 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Research shocker: genetically engineered viruses seekout kill cancer Research shocker: genetically engineered viruses seek out, kill cancer http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/20/research-shocker-genetically-engineered-v iruses-seek-out-kill/ July 20, 2010 by Laura June New research at UCLA's Jonsson Comprehensive Center seeks to turn the human body into a genetically engineered cancer-killing machine. The fact that the human body doesn't see cancer as a threat to be destroyed naturally is part of what makes treating it so difficult, so this research uses a harmless, HIV-like virus as the vehicle to carry T-cells (which fight disease) to lymphocytes, and simultaneously carry a reporter gene, which show up in positron emission tomography (PET) scanning, as you can see in the photographs above. So far the researchers have injected the cells into the bloodstreams of melanoma-infected mice, and they began to see evidence of their work within two or three days, and by ten days, it was obvious that in most cases, the cells were indeed fighting the cancer. The process, they admit, could take longer in human beings, and would require about one billion tumor seeking lymphocytes per person treated. They are currently working on creating a vehicle to safely carry the lymphocytes in the human body, and expect the human trial leg of the study to begin within one year. Original Source: PNA http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/07/06/1008300107.abstract?sid=f84ba22 7-1626-4527-85db-896cbfcfc223 _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100720/7b4db3f1/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 13:02:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:02:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Diseases in America Message-ID: <4C4600DA.000013.00116@DON-B2514E06367> Diseases rarely documented in America are showing up with greater frequency. Don Malaria was eradicated from the USA in the 1940s but recently there were outbreaks in southern California, New Jersey, New York City, and Houston. Additionally, Malaria tainted blood has been discovered in the Blood supply. Dengue was first recognized in the 1950s, affects most Asian countries and has become a leading cause of death among children in the infected areas. Heretofore unknown in the US, Dengue outbreaks have now occurred in the United States. Leprosy, a scourge of Biblical days, is caused by a bacillus agent and is now know as Hansen's Disease. In the 40 years prior to 2002, there were only 900 total cases of leprosy in the US. In the following three years There have been 9,000 cases and most were illegal aliens. As noted in the article Leprosy in America: new cause for concern by Dr. William Levis, head of the New York Hansen's Disease Clinic. "It's creeping into the U.S. ... This is a real phenomenon. It's a public Health threat. New York is endemic now, and nobody's noticed." In The same article, Dr. Terry Williams, who runs a Houston-based clinic Serving leprosy patients across southern Texas, said that the bulk of The cases treated by his clinic were immigrants. "A lot of our Cases are imported," he said. "We see patients from everywhere--Africa, The Philippines, China, South America." (emphasis added) Hepatitis A-E is a viral infection that primarily attacks the liver. In 2004 more than 650 people contacted Hepatitis A at a single Chi-Chi's Mexican restaurant in Pennsylvania. Four latter died. Hepatitis B is one of the major diseases of mankind And is a serious global public health problem. It is estimated that 2 BILLION people are infected and about one million persons die each year. The new vaccine is only 95% effective in preventing an infection and Will not cure a person who already has Hepatitis B, which results in a Lifelong infection, cirrhosis (scarring) of the liver, liver cancer, Liver failure, and early death. An estimated 1.3 million people in the US are currently infected. No vaccine is currently available to prevent Hepatitis C-E and treatment for chronic Hepatitis C costs about $1,500 Per person.Diseases -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100720/9a4e4477/attachment.gif From debbratland at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 17:01:02 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:01:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Giveaway Day Message-ID: Hi Everyone - Thanks to all 11 people who responded to the little googledocs survey. So far, here are the results: Name (everyone was asked to choose 3 favorites)? - Giveaway Day - 8 - Giveaway-Haulaway Day - 6 - Curbside Giveaway Day - 5 - Haulaway Day - 2 - Come and Get it Day - 1 - Hauliday - 1 - Curbside Gold Day - 1 - Giveaway Hauliday - 1 Month? - September - 10 - August - 1 City-wide Garage Sale 1 week before? - No - 5 - Yes - 3 - Not sure - 1 - Other comments, leaning towards a "no" - 2 Would you like to help? - 1 person said maybe - but I don't know who it was. Someone out there forwarded part or all of our email exchange to a master recycler (thank you, whoever you are), who contacted me by email to let me know she is interested in helping out with this. I'll be emailing her and telling her that the job of bringing back Giveaway Day is available! I'll let you know if she decides to take it on. Then we can find people to help support her in various ways. Hopefully, someone will take it on, since there seems to be a lot of interest in reviving this old tradition. Deb Bratland From waltw at teleport.com Tue Jul 20 17:54:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:54:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Giveaway Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Debra: Glad to hear someone has expressed interest in spearheading this idea! I'll be willing to help out by the second week in August-- right now, got too many things on my plate. Might be good to start an initial inquiry going to the city council secretary-- Something along the lines of: Dear Forest Grove City Council members: A few years ago, an unofficial, annual local event brought pleasure, convenience and economic savings to many citizens. Our waste disposal contractor at that time offered a "Free Trash Pickup Day" once a year. The night before the pickup, people left their unwanted or broken possessions by the curb in addition to their trash. Many citizens then enjoyed a "treasure hunt," cruising the streets to look for and salvage items they could repair or use. Many of us today can still point to possessions that were "recycled" in this way. Even though our present "Free Trash Pickup Day" has become severely limited to specified types of bagged refuse, Waste Management need not be involved in the following proposal, which would impose no costs or obligations upon the city: We, the undersigned citizens, would like to create a "Giveaway Day," like citizens of many other towns across the USA and in Canada. This would involve no organization, business or city department, but would simply encourage people to place unwanted possessions at the curb on an announced date, and to take back or dispose of any unclaimed items by the evening of the next day. We believe this would save people money, reduce trash disposal costs and landfill requirements, conserve valuable resources, enhance the reputation of Forest Grove as a "Green" town, and best of all, revive the fun and convenience enjoyed by citizens in years past. Thanking you for your consideration: (chairman) (list of names) What say? If anyone has anything to add or remove from this idea (best keep it short and sweet), it might be good to start the ball rolling, On Jul 20, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Hi Everyone - > > Thanks to all 11 people who responded to the little googledocs > survey. So > far, here are the results: > > Name (everyone was asked to choose 3 favorites)? > > - Giveaway Day - 8 > - Giveaway-Haulaway Day - 6 > - Curbside Giveaway Day - 5 > - Haulaway Day - 2 > - Come and Get it Day - 1 > - Hauliday - 1 > - Curbside Gold Day - 1 > - Giveaway Hauliday - 1 > > > Month? > > - September - 10 > - August - 1 > > > City-wide Garage Sale 1 week before? > > - No - 5 > - Yes - 3 > - Not sure - 1 > - Other comments, leaning towards a "no" - 2 > > > Would you like to help? > > - 1 person said maybe - but I don't know who it was. > > > Someone out there forwarded part or all of our email exchange to a > master > recycler (thank you, whoever you are), who contacted me by email to > let me > know she is interested in helping out with this. I'll be emailing > her and > telling her that the job of bringing back Giveaway Day is > available! I'll > let you know if she decides to take it on. Then we can find people > to help > support her in various ways. > > Hopefully, someone will take it on, since there seems to be a lot of > interest in reviving this old tradition. > > Deb Bratland > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 21:58:51 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:58:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: <4FA12DC8-1C4E-4C6F-AC90-69449D3BD820@verizon.net> References: <4FA12DC8-1C4E-4C6F-AC90-69449D3BD820@verizon.net> Message-ID: <87F098D1-98F1-4732-B86D-C3D8BA67F3F9@verizon.net> In this proposal, Pacific is one way westbound from the East side of Haggen to the West, so, it is one-way where it crosses Hwy 47. That means it doesn't have opposing traffic, which means it doesn't need a separate left turn lane or left turn light. For that reason it can have three westbound lanes, with the traffic in the left lane able to turn left or go straight. All three lanes can move traffic through all of the green. And since there is no need for a separate left turn light, the through traffic gets a longer green per cycle for more traffic capacity. North on 47 to east would turn at 19th, since 19th is the eastbound travel route. David On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > On the Pacific - Quince interchange: > The westbound on Pacific to northbound on Quince looks great, but > where did the Northbound on 47 to eastbound on Pacific turn wind up? > (And the east bound on Pacific to southbound on 47?) > > I notice the Haggen (or whatever) is built so this is likely a future > map but I thought at least the North on 47 to east on Pacific turn > would stay... > > Katie From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 22:16:23 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 22:16:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: <87F098D1-98F1-4732-B86D-C3D8BA67F3F9@verizon.net> References: <4FA12DC8-1C4E-4C6F-AC90-69449D3BD820@verizon.net> <87F098D1-98F1-4732-B86D-C3D8BA67F3F9@verizon.net> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't catch the one way detail....thanks, now it makes more sense. Katie And I didn't want to give up the right turn lane in front of Ace going north. I tend to use that a lot. On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:58 PM, David Morelli wrote: > In this proposal, Pacific is one way westbound from the East side > of Haggen to the West, so, it is one-way where it crosses Hwy 47. > That means it doesn't have opposing traffic, which means it doesn't > need a separate left turn lane or left turn light. > > For that reason it can have three westbound lanes, with the > traffic in the left lane able to turn left or go straight. All > three lanes can move traffic through all of the green. And since > there is no need for a separate left turn light, the through > traffic gets a longer green per cycle for more traffic capacity. > > North on 47 to east would turn at 19th, since 19th is the eastbound > travel route. > > David > > > On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> On the Pacific - Quince interchange: >> The westbound on Pacific to northbound on Quince looks great, but >> where did the Northbound on 47 to eastbound on Pacific turn wind up? >> (And the east bound on Pacific to southbound on 47?) >> >> I notice the Haggen (or whatever) is built so this is likely a future >> map but I thought at least the North on 47 to east on Pacific turn >> would stay... >> >> Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 23:04:16 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:04:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: <7BFC151FC79B4D128D8A9A73DC51E406@JeffVAIO> References: <7BFC151FC79B4D128D8A9A73DC51E406@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4AD3080E-F595-4DE7-902D-A3D193B3023C@verizon.net> On Jul 20, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > Wow! You put a lot of work into this David. I'm so glad someone is looking to the future and planning - it makes me crazy when there aren't any plans and then actions are taken which make future progress much more difficult. I am trying to plan for the future, but without support, some other plan will be adopted. For examples: If we don't put a traffic light at Yew/Adair we are asking for fatalities at that intersection. If 19th is not extended to Richey Road bridge, the street in front of Tom McCall Middle Schools will carry 100% of the traffic instead of half. If Watercrest Drive and Nichols Lane are not aligned before the empty land is developed, the current offset will be set in concrete and much more expensive to change. If we don't repaint the Martin Road/Hwy 47 intersection to add a merge lane, the traffic will suffer delays until we have some serious accidents. If we don't plan for a different local truck route, traffic from T.V. Highway to the Matsushita site will go in front of Neal Armstrong School. If we don't connect Heather Street to Fern Hill Road, trucks moving from one industrial area to the other will need to cross railroad tracks and clutter Hwy 47 at two intersections. If we don't close the gaps and make the right connections, we won't have routes that are suitable and financially viable for a local bus route serving for our high density housing and job zones. > > I like the safety factor of one-way streets and it probably makes a lot of sense to move more traffic thru. But, I often wonder how it impacts local businesses which rely on a "drive-by" population, rather than someone heading to a specific destination. It would seem to affect the big boxes, because of their vast size, but what happens to the smaller businesses when their street is changed from a two-way to a one-way? Good question. Right now, the two way traffic backs up during heavy traffic hours blocking business driveways and intersections. Left turns are more difficult for traffic. Does that dissuade customers from stopping? In this proposal, the current two way street would become one way westbound. That means the heaviest traffic in front of the local businesses would be the evening rush hour. In the proposal, the Albertson and Hagen sites both have frontage on three sides of their site, with entrance and exit unhindered by having to cross opposing traffic. The Safeway site has separated entry and exit locations to remove the conflicts at the current driveways. BTW, the big box stores typically avoid one-way streets as a siting criteria. They would prefer to disrupt traffic with a entrance on a busy two-way highway. > > Looking at the pictures with the multiple lanes of traffic, makes me think of the evolution of Beaverton between 1987 (when I arrived) and now. In 1987 it was a population of ~30,000 (a bit larger than FG is now), 185th was a two way street and the downtown Beaverton area had more two way streets and lots more trees and greenery. Now when you drive thru it feels like yet another megalopolis with many more one-way streets, more big box stores, a lot more paving and a lot fewer trees and landscaping. Sure, there are some nice parks, but the noise, traffic and acres of hot asphalt are not exactly conducive to an idyllic life. Is there anything we can do in Forest Grove to avoid the same feeling you get when you go to Beaverton? I wish we could think "out of the box" a bit more and come up with something unique to manage the traffic and still provide a lifestyle for the FG community, which they will enjoy. Any ideas? The one way streets are narrower than the two way highway, which makes it easier for pedestrians to cross. If the traffic signals are timed for smooth flow, then there are regular, safe crossing opportunities for pedestrians at more locations than two way traffic allows. When the lights are timed, the traffic doesn't need to move at such high speeds between waiting at red lights, so the traffic can move slower and still cover the distance in the same time. Since there can be less stopping and starting, there can be less pollution, smell and noise. Traffic entering or leaving a business doesn't need to worry about crossing opposing traffic. My history of Beaverton goes back to the mid 1960's, and it has always been at the forefront of "shooting itself in the foot" with their traffic planning. Their major routes took the typical approach of wider and wider streets, fewer cross streets, and an auto-centric transportation plan. > > Europe has many cities which are pretty tightly packed, and yet (as I remember), they don't feel like a megalopolis. We will be going to Switzerland in a few weeks, and I'll be sure to make note of some of the techniques used. Of course I realize they are not as dependent on their vehicles as we are, but they do seem to move transportation thru. > > Marian > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:42 PM > To: "grovenet" > Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids > >> Some time back we had a short discussion of the future of transportation >> in Forest Grove. >> >> I had some suggestions and wanted to share the visuals, but I don't want >> to clog the list with bulky jpeg files. So, I placed them on the Google >> site. >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/theoutofplacefg/ >> >> I would hope that some of the Grove are interested in these suggestions. >> Any feedback that it would promote the formation of better ideas is >> requested. >> >> While I know what they represent, I realize that others may not, so >> questions are welcome. . >> >> David Morelli >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Jul 20 23:09:57 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Transportation visual aids In-Reply-To: References: <4FA12DC8-1C4E-4C6F-AC90-69449D3BD820@verizon.net> <87F098D1-98F1-4732-B86D-C3D8BA67F3F9@verizon.net> Message-ID: Right. And if you look at the acquisition and redevelopment map, you can see that even though it increases traffic capacity, it has the potential of making more land available for businesses. If the excess land were sold, it might even pay for the cost of land acquisition. The ODOT process of increasing traffic capacity by making wider roads generally reduces the land available for businesses. Look at 10th Street in Hillsboro. When they chose to increase traffic capacity they took frontage and parking spaces from the businesses. That didn't help business. David On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Ah, I didn't catch the one way detail....thanks, now it makes more > sense. > > Katie > And I didn't want to give up the right turn lane in front of Ace > going north. I tend to use that a lot. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 12:36:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:36:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Music Message-ID: <4C474C30.000006.00696@DON-B2514E06367> Science of Music: Accidental Scientist "What is music? Is birdsong music? How about the tap-tap-tap of a hammer, or the wail of a creaking door? Is playing a garbage can different than playing a drum?" Online since 1993, the Exploratorium was one of the first science museums to build a site on the World Wide Web." The sites provide excellent resources for various studies, this particular one on the Science of Music being no exception. The introduction invites you to 'explore the science of music with us, through these online exhibits, movies, and questions. Along the way, you can compose, mix, dance, drum, experiment, and above all . . .listen.' Be sure to accept this invitation! Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100721/6a6101fb/attachment.gif From debbratland at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 20:51:17 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:51:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Giveaway Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The individual who contacted me about working to promote a giveaway day in Forest Grove is mulling the idea over, and said she will let me know in a week or so if she thinks she can do it. Let's hope so! Deb Bratland On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Hi Debra: > Glad to hear someone has expressed interest in spearheading this idea! > I'll be willing to help out by the second week in August-- right now, > got too many things on my plate. > > Might be good to start an initial inquiry going to the city council > secretary-- Something along the lines of: > > Dear Forest Grove City Council members: > A few years ago, an unofficial, annual local event brought pleasure, > convenience and economic savings to many citizens. > Our waste disposal contractor at that time offered a "Free Trash > Pickup Day" once a year. The night before the pickup, people left > their unwanted or broken possessions by the curb in addition to their > trash. Many citizens then enjoyed a "treasure hunt," cruising the > streets to look for and salvage items they could repair or use. > Many of us today can still point to possessions that were "recycled" > in this way. > Even though our present "Free Trash Pickup Day" has become severely > limited to specified types of bagged refuse, Waste Management need > not be involved in the following proposal, which would impose no > costs or obligations upon the city: > We, the undersigned citizens, would like to create a "Giveaway Day," > like citizens of many other towns across the USA and in Canada. This > would involve no organization, business or city department, but would > simply encourage people to place unwanted possessions at the curb on > an announced date, and to take back or dispose of any unclaimed items > by the evening of the next day. > We believe this would save people money, reduce trash disposal costs > and landfill requirements, conserve valuable resources, enhance the > reputation of Forest Grove as a "Green" town, and best of all, revive > the fun and convenience enjoyed by citizens in years past. > Thanking you for your consideration: > (chairman) > (list of names) > > What say? If anyone has anything to add or remove from this idea > (best keep it short and sweet), it might be good to start the ball > rolling, > > On Jul 20, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Hi Everyone - > > > > Thanks to all 11 people who responded to the little googledocs > > survey. So > > far, here are the results: > > > > Name (everyone was asked to choose 3 favorites)? > > > > - Giveaway Day - 8 > > - Giveaway-Haulaway Day - 6 > > - Curbside Giveaway Day - 5 > > - Haulaway Day - 2 > > - Come and Get it Day - 1 > > - Hauliday - 1 > > - Curbside Gold Day - 1 > > - Giveaway Hauliday - 1 > > > > > > Month? > > > > - September - 10 > > - August - 1 > > > > > > City-wide Garage Sale 1 week before? > > > > - No - 5 > > - Yes - 3 > > - Not sure - 1 > > - Other comments, leaning towards a "no" - 2 > > > > > > Would you like to help? > > > > - 1 person said maybe - but I don't know who it was. > > > > > > Someone out there forwarded part or all of our email exchange to a > > master > > recycler (thank you, whoever you are), who contacted me by email to > > let me > > know she is interested in helping out with this. I'll be emailing > > her and > > telling her that the job of bringing back Giveaway Day is > > available! I'll > > let you know if she decides to take it on. Then we can find people > > to help > > support her in various ways. > > > > Hopefully, someone will take it on, since there seems to be a lot of > > interest in reviving this old tradition. > > > > Deb Bratland > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Wed Jul 21 22:22:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Giveaway Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65EB8AA1-C12F-46D5-AD00-1566D052C78A@teleport.com> Good! Let's hope she decides to go for it! Walt On Jul 21, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: > The individual who contacted me about working to promote a giveaway > day in > Forest Grove is mulling the idea over, and said she will let me > know in a > week or so if she thinks she can do it. Let's hope so! > > Deb Bratland > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Hi Debra: >> Glad to hear someone has expressed interest in spearheading this >> idea! >> I'll be willing to help out by the second week in August-- right now, >> got too many things on my plate. >> >> Might be good to start an initial inquiry going to the city council >> secretary-- Something along the lines of: >> >> Dear Forest Grove City Council members: >> A few years ago, an unofficial, annual local event brought pleasure, >> convenience and economic savings to many citizens. >> Our waste disposal contractor at that time offered a "Free Trash >> Pickup Day" once a year. The night before the pickup, people left >> their unwanted or broken possessions by the curb in addition to their >> trash. Many citizens then enjoyed a "treasure hunt," cruising the >> streets to look for and salvage items they could repair or use. >> Many of us today can still point to possessions that were "recycled" >> in this way. >> Even though our present "Free Trash Pickup Day" has become severely >> limited to specified types of bagged refuse, Waste Management need >> not be involved in the following proposal, which would impose no >> costs or obligations upon the city: >> We, the undersigned citizens, would like to create a "Giveaway Day," >> like citizens of many other towns across the USA and in Canada. This >> would involve no organization, business or city department, but would >> simply encourage people to place unwanted possessions at the curb on >> an announced date, and to take back or dispose of any unclaimed items >> by the evening of the next day. >> We believe this would save people money, reduce trash disposal costs >> and landfill requirements, conserve valuable resources, enhance the >> reputation of Forest Grove as a "Green" town, and best of all, revive >> the fun and convenience enjoyed by citizens in years past. >> Thanking you for your consideration: >> (chairman) >> (list of names) >> >> What say? If anyone has anything to add or remove from this idea >> (best keep it short and sweet), it might be good to start the ball >> rolling, >> >> On Jul 20, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >>> Hi Everyone - >>> >>> Thanks to all 11 people who responded to the little googledocs >>> survey. So >>> far, here are the results: >>> >>> Name (everyone was asked to choose 3 favorites)? >>> >>> - Giveaway Day - 8 >>> - Giveaway-Haulaway Day - 6 >>> - Curbside Giveaway Day - 5 >>> - Haulaway Day - 2 >>> - Come and Get it Day - 1 >>> - Hauliday - 1 >>> - Curbside Gold Day - 1 >>> - Giveaway Hauliday - 1 >>> >>> >>> Month? >>> >>> - September - 10 >>> - August - 1 >>> >>> >>> City-wide Garage Sale 1 week before? >>> >>> - No - 5 >>> - Yes - 3 >>> - Not sure - 1 >>> - Other comments, leaning towards a "no" - 2 >>> >>> >>> Would you like to help? >>> >>> - 1 person said maybe - but I don't know who it was. >>> >>> >>> Someone out there forwarded part or all of our email exchange to a >>> master >>> recycler (thank you, whoever you are), who contacted me by email to >>> let me >>> know she is interested in helping out with this. I'll be emailing >>> her and >>> telling her that the job of bringing back Giveaway Day is >>> available! I'll >>> let you know if she decides to take it on. Then we can find people >>> to help >>> support her in various ways. >>> >>> Hopefully, someone will take it on, since there seems to be a lot of >>> interest in reviving this old tradition. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 22 18:03:47 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:03:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haaaaalp! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's the phone number for housecleaner Jeff Parris again? I lost it, and need to get in touch to reschedule. WWW From admin at ronhowden.com Thu Jul 22 19:11:45 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:11:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haaaaalp! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> Here ya go Walt, Jeff Parris, 360-430-3869 Ron H. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:04 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Haaaaalp! What's the phone number for housecleaner Jeff Parris again? I lost it, and need to get in touch to reschedule. WWW From waltw at teleport.com Thu Jul 22 20:29:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:29:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Haaaaalp! In-Reply-To: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Ron! WW On Jul 22, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > Here ya go Walt, > Jeff Parris, 360-430-3869 > > Ron H. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:04 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Haaaaalp! > > What's the phone number for housecleaner Jeff Parris again? I lost > it, and > need to get in touch to reschedule. > WWW > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Jul 23 21:41:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] More on Psychopathy In-Reply-To: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> Message-ID: <97D5912B-9861-414D-AE3D-D81892F28942@teleport.com> A most interesting book review, on the subject of psychopathy (which we were discussing a week ago) and the effects upon society of psychopaths in positions of wealth or power. WW http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148141-The-Trick-of-the-Psychopath- s-Trade-Make-Us-Believe-that-Evil-Comes-from-Others From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 08:45:47 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:45:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> Message-ID: <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored glass bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I had turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors carried the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, and it had vanished next time I looked. Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air compressor I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper that just needs a bolt... Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. WW From canam58 at msn.com Sun Jul 25 09:09:47 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 09:09:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> Message-ID: Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored glass bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I had turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors carried the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, and it had vanished next time I looked. Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air compressor I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper that just needs a bolt... Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. WW _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 18:52:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1F8BECC7-7DCE-46A5-B4D8-B19F45B8F8E9@teleport.com> On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove > local interests list > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > > Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have > been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." > In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored > glass > bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever > finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which > actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I > had > turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel > on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors > carried > the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, > and it had vanished next time I looked. > Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- > some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air > compressor > I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper > that > just needs a bolt... > Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I > age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, > except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I > will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. > WW > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 18:55:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:55:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove > local interests list > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > > Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have > been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." > In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored > glass > bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever > finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which > actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I > had > turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel > on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors > carried > the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, > and it had vanished next time I looked. > Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- > some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air > compressor > I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper > that > just needs a bolt... > Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I > age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, > except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I > will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. > WW > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 18:57:32 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:57:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: References: <009501cb2a0c$6758d440$360a7cc0$@ronhowden.com> <284187F5-503C-4964-B36D-002BB1B509DF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8A34B6BB-905E-4121-A4A0-9D8C764DA7F3@teleport.com> Sorry, Dwight, accidentally sent a couple of dud replies... On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? 'Tis gone, 'tis gone... it was a Cadet front-tine with fixed wheels, at least 30 years old, and a real kidney-pounder. Count yourself lucky you didn't have to deal with it. Regrets, Walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove > local interests list > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > > Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have > been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." > In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored > glass > bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever > finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which > actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I > had > turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel > on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors > carried > the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, > and it had vanished next time I looked. > Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- > some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air > compressor > I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper > that > just needs a bolt... > Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I > age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, > except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I > will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. > WW > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 19:04:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 02:04:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: <8A34B6BB-905E-4121-A4A0-9D8C764DA7F3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <533139936.498243.1280109854245.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Briggs and Stratton engine. Unless the block cracks and dumps the oil, that engine could run a long long time. Maintenance was usually limited to spark plug and magneto cleanup......and of course changing oil and gas every season. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:57:32 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" Sorry, Dwight, accidentally sent a couple of dud replies... On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? 'Tis gone, 'tis gone... it was a Cadet front-tine with fixed wheels, at least 30 years old, and a real kidney-pounder. Count yourself lucky you didn't have to deal with it. Regrets, Walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove > local interests list > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM > Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > > Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I have > been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." > In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored > glass > bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever > finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which > actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I > had > turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose wheel > on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors > carried > the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, > and it had vanished next time I looked. > Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 years-- > some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air > compressor > I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper > that > just needs a bolt... > Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I > age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything extraneous, > except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I > will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. > WW > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 22:48:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:48:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: <533139936.498243.1280109854245.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <533139936.498243.1280109854245.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <9CCE6235-7CF9-4732-983B-FFB1B1C6A24E@teleport.com> Yep, one of those good old hunk-of-iron never-say-die B&S engines... but unless you set the throttle JUST right, and fiddled with the choke, and held your mouth right, you could yank and yank until you broke the damn starter cord (or the recoil spring, as I did twice) and it would NOT start! I'm sure my kids picked up a lot of bad language from listening to me fighting with that damn thing. Once started, it was propelled by the rotating tines, while the wheels were lifted clear of the ground. It was like trying to steer a badger in convulsions. Now and then it would playfully kick back and knock your duodenum into your esophagus. I'm sure with a complete rebuild and lots of new parts it would work just fine, or as fine as that model ever did, anyhow. I was delighted to see it gone forever. Me for a Troy-Bilt, next time-- if ever. WW On Jul 25, 2010, at 7:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Briggs and Stratton engine. Unless the block cracks and dumps the > oil, that engine could run a long long time. Maintenance was > usually limited to spark plug and magneto cleanup......and of > course changing oil and gas every season. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:57:32 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > Sorry, Dwight, accidentally sent a couple of dud replies... > On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > >> Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? > > 'Tis gone, 'tis gone... it was a Cadet front-tine with fixed wheels, > at least 30 years old, and a real kidney-pounder. Count yourself > lucky you didn't have to deal with it. > Regrets, > Walt >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove >> local interests list >> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" >> >> >> Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I >> have >> been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." >> In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored >> glass >> bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever >> finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which >> actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I >> had >> turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose >> wheel >> on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors >> carried >> the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, >> and it had vanished next time I looked. >> Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 >> years-- >> some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air >> compressor >> I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper >> that >> just needs a bolt... >> Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I >> age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything >> extraneous, >> except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I >> will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. >> WW >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 23:02:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:02:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" References: <533139936.498243.1280109854245.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <9CCE6235-7CF9-4732-983B-FFB1B1C6A24E@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C4D250B.00000E.03848@DON-B2514E06367> Troy may STILL have the same B&S engine, which got around to several brands. Some now use a Honda engine, and those are pretty smooth. I think the pointed tines are better than the flat ones. Just an opinion of course. John Deer is still pretty good. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 7/25/2010 10:46:41 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" Yep, one of those good old hunk-of-iron never-say-die B&S engines... but unless you set the throttle JUST right, and fiddled with the choke, and held your mouth right, you could yank and yank until you broke the damn starter cord (or the recoil spring, as I did twice) and it would NOT start! I'm sure my kids picked up a lot of bad language from listening to me fighting with that damn thing. Once started, it was propelled by the rotating tines, while the wheels were lifted clear of the ground. It was like trying to steer a badger in convulsions. Now and then it would playfully kick back and knock your duodenum into your esophagus. I'm sure with a complete rebuild and lots of new parts it would work just fine, or as fine as that model ever did, anyhow. I was delighted to see it gone forever. Me for a Troy-Bilt, next time-- if ever. WW On Jul 25, 2010, at 7:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Briggs and Stratton engine. Unless the block cracks and dumps the > oil, that engine could run a long long time. Maintenance was > usually limited to spark plug and magneto cleanup......and of > course changing oil and gas every season. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:57:32 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > Sorry, Dwight, accidentally sent a couple of dud replies... > On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > >> Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? > > 'Tis gone, 'tis gone... it was a Cadet front-tine with fixed wheels, > at least 30 years old, and a real kidney-pounder. Count yourself > lucky you didn't have to deal with it. > Regrets, > Walt >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove >> local interests list >> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM >> Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" >> >> >> Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I >> have >> been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." >> In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored >> glass >> bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever >> finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which >> actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I >> had >> turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose >> wheel >> on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors >> carried >> the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, >> and it had vanished next time I looked. >> Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 >> years-- >> some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air >> compressor >> I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper >> that >> just needs a bolt... >> Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. As I >> age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything >> extraneous, >> except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I >> will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything else. >> WW >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100725/2ed692fa/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sun Jul 25 23:18:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:18:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" In-Reply-To: <4C4D250B.00000E.03848@DON-B2514E06367> References: <533139936.498243.1280109854245.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <9CCE6235-7CF9-4732-983B-FFB1B1C6A24E@teleport.com> <4C4D250B.00000E.03848@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: The Troy-Bilt we got for the community garden has the pointed-end tines, counter-rotating in respect to the wheels, and really does a number on that hard clay ground. The engine is a B&S, I believe. Gregg Shipp, the professional gardener I asked for advice, says that despite all the good brands, he'd never buy anything but a Troy-Bilt. WW On Jul 25, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > Troy may STILL have the same B&S engine, which got around to > several brands. > > Some now use a Honda engine, and those are pretty smooth. > > I think the pointed tines are better than the flat ones. > > Just an opinion of course. John Deer is still pretty good. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 7/25/2010 10:46:41 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" > > Yep, one of those good old hunk-of-iron never-say-die B&S engines... > but unless you set the throttle JUST right, and fiddled with the > choke, and held your mouth right, you could yank and yank until you > broke the damn starter cord (or the recoil spring, as I did twice) > and it would NOT start! I'm sure my kids picked up a lot of bad > language from listening to me fighting with that damn thing. > Once started, it was propelled by the rotating tines, while the > wheels were lifted clear of the ground. It was like trying to steer > a badger in convulsions. Now and then it would playfully kick back > and knock your duodenum into your esophagus. I'm sure with a complete > rebuild and lots of new parts it would work just fine, or as fine as > that model ever did, anyhow. I was delighted to see it gone forever. > Me for a Troy-Bilt, next time-- if ever. > WW > On Jul 25, 2010, at 7:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Briggs and Stratton engine. Unless the block cracks and dumps the >> oil, that engine could run a long long time. Maintenance was >> usually limited to spark plug and magneto cleanup......and of >> course changing oil and gas every season. >> >> don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:57:32 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" >> >> Sorry, Dwight, accidentally sent a couple of dud replies... >> On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:09 AM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: >> >>> Is the tiller a front tine or rear (what make ) ? >> >> 'Tis gone, 'tis gone... it was a Cadet front-tine with fixed wheels, >> at least 30 years old, and a real kidney-pounder. Count yourself >> lucky you didn't have to deal with it. >> Regrets, >> Walt >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove >>> local interests list >>> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM >>> Subject: [Grovenet] The magic of "Free" >>> >>> >>> Trying to gain a bit of freedom for the next couple of weeks, I >>> have >>> been shedding some of my excess stuff through the magic of "Free." >>> In the last month I've gotten rid of several buckets of colored >>> glass >>> bits, a huge rolling magazine rack I'd finally given up on ever >>> finding a use for, and yesterday a rack of sliding trays which >>> actually vanished within a minute of putting it out, just while I >>> had >>> turned my back a second to get a piece of tape to hold a loose >>> wheel >>> on. That wheel had fallen off again as my unknown benefactors >>> carried >>> the rack away, so I put it on top of the wire rack I offered next, >>> and it had vanished next time I looked. >>> Next to go will be a senile rototiller that hasn't run in 10 >>> years-- >>> some optimistic tinkerer will take that, I'm sure-- an air >>> compressor >>> I picked up free myself, a bench grinder, a broken brush clipper >>> that >>> just needs a bolt... >>> Many people start obsessively hoarding junk as they get older. >>> As I >>> age, I feel the opposite urge-- to get rid of everything >>> extraneous, >>> except books, art, music and movies. And Zeppelin models, which I >>> will presumably assemble when I'm too stove up to do anything >>> else. >>> WW >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Jul 29 11:47:28 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:47:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] SCRAP location Message-ID: I just recently relearned about this great location and thought with the discussion about old calendars and glass scraps it would be worth while to remind people about it. http://scrapaction.org/get-involved/donate-materials/ The good part is this is another resource to reuse materials. The bad part is they are on the other side of Portland and they get overwhelmed with the common stuff so they can be selective. But it's nice to know they are there. Katie PS to Walt. If I ever go there and you still have glass I'd be happy to take it with me (though I don't have a trip planned at this point). From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Jul 31 22:10:00 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:10:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mortgage burning party Message-ID: <6E5953F0-4439-40BA-A29F-DE6910AF4094@verizon.net> The Friends of Historic Forest Grove enjoyed a "mortgage burning" party tonight for the Alvin T. Smith house and property. Hurray and thanks to all who contributed to the project. David From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Jul 31 22:17:45 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:17:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mortgage burning party In-Reply-To: <6E5953F0-4439-40BA-A29F-DE6910AF4094@verizon.net> References: <6E5953F0-4439-40BA-A29F-DE6910AF4094@verizon.net> Message-ID: CONGRATS, Friends! :-) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:10 PM To: "grovenet" Subject: [Grovenet] Mortgage burning party > The Friends of Historic Forest Grove enjoyed a "mortgage burning" party > tonight for the Alvin T. Smith house and property. > > Hurray and thanks to all who contributed to the project. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >